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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
Thread-Index: Ac9aXR+T6KkdUxpXSte10yjdf4cMWwkTCGNQ
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 21:27:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it li=
sts documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:

	draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt

Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for d=
raft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?

Thanks, Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki

Hi,

Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Ar=
ea
wiki.

You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
Or you can go there direct at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate w=
iki.
Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since t=
his
is a wiki - just get on and edit it!

There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a place=
 for
you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. =
Could
you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
convenient.

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list docume=
nts
currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additio=
nal
reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. W=
e
heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it tak=
es
off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
intend doing an additional review.=20

Three other notes...
- The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll wo=
rk to
polish that.
- The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
- English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on it=
s own
pages of the Area wiki.

Thanks,
Alia and Adrian




From nobody Tue Jun  3 00:32:25 2014
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
Thread-Index: Ac9aXR+T6KkdUxpXSte10yjdf4cMWwkTCGNQABTtlTA=
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 07:32:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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Hi Ross

Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when y=
ou agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it now.

When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document =
into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their comm=
ents.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.

Best regards
Jon

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Cu=
rrently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes t=
o add their name or a draft and name, they may.

When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should=
 move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a li=
nk to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any iss=
ues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolved=
 to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft n=
umber can be useful too).
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki

One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it li=
sts documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:

	draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt

Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for d=
raft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?

Thanks, Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki

Hi,

Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Ar=
ea
wiki.

You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
Or you can go there direct at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate w=
iki.
Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since t=
his
is a wiki - just get on and edit it!

There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a place=
 for
you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. =
Could
you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
convenient.

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list docume=
nts
currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additio=
nal
reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. W=
e
heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it tak=
es
off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
intend doing an additional review.=20

Three other notes...
- The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll wo=
rk to
polish that.
- The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
- English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on it=
s own
pages of the Area wiki.

Thanks,
Alia and Adrian




From nobody Tue Jun  3 01:45:27 2014
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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:45:10 +0200
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] statistics ? - Re: Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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Jonathan,

Do we have any statistics over how many reviews we done over
e.g. the last 18 months?

/Loa

On 2014-06-03 09:32, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
> Hi Ross
>
> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it now.
>
> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their comments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>
> Best regards
> Jon
>
> ========
> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>
> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any issues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolved to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft number can be useful too).
> ========
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>
> 	draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>
> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> Hi,
>
> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Area
> wiki.
>
> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
> Or you can go there direct at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate wiki.
> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since this
> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>
> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a place for
> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. Could
> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
> convenient.
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list documents
> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additional
> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. We
> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it takes
> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
> intend doing an additional review.
>
> Three other notes...
> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll work to
> polish that.
> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on its own
> pages of the Area wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia and Adrian
>
>
>

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@mail01.huawei.com
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa@pi.nu
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Alexander Vainshtein'" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 13:07:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
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Adrian, all

My 2euro cents=20

 I wonder if one of the first questions isn't about the charter of the rout=
ing area itself. For instance its first sentence refers to "continuous oper=
ation of the routing system" while OPS states its technical areas cover "ro=
uting operations" but presently only BGP/Global routing in GROW and multica=
st in MBONED have an OPS WG.

 More generally, a split/reorganization can realized in different ways: pro=
tocol design - protocol operation split vs. per-protocol split (from archit=
ecture to operations) vs. domain split (xVPN, traffic-engineering, unicast =
IP routing, multicast routing, etc.).=20

 In order to determine which one(s) would better suite, the motivations mig=
ht require further work. From the 6 points, three appear as motivations (wh=
y): create synergies, accommodate new ideas and relevant work, decrease sig=
nal-to-noise ratio, the three others 1) 5) 6) are related to the question o=
n how the reorganization would be guided and what it would imply it terms o=
f work for each WG.

Thanks,
-dimitri.

 =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farre=
l
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 3:22 PM
> To: 'Alexander Vainshtein'
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
>=20
> Hello Sasha,
>=20
> > A few na=EFve questions if you do not mind:
>=20
> I don't think a question can be naive.
>=20
> > 1. How do I subscribe to the=A0=A0routing-discussion@ietf.org list?
>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/routing-discussion
>=20
> > 2. Your email mentions splitting some "giant" WGs. Could you provide a
> > couple of specific examples of the WGs you consider giant? IMO this
> > would be most helpful=A0for effective discussion, since I suspect that =
a
> > giant WG could be very different for different people.
>=20
> Weeeeeeell, yes I could, and I do have some things in mind. But I would
> prefer for this to be a more open discussion and get ideas and opinions
> from the area rather than stamp my views on you all.
>=20
> > 3. For the sake of curiosity,=A0do you consider also conclusion of some
> > WGs as part of the re-organization? The email does not mention that.
>=20
> Yes, it probably should mention this as a possibility, and everything is
> on the table. But, again, I'd like to hear opinions. Maybe work should be
> grouped together resulting in one new WG in place of two old ones. Maybe
> something is coming to its natural end or has run out of steam. Discuss..=
.
>=20
> > 4. Do you expect the RTG-DIR reviews you mention as=A0part of the WG
> > Draft QA process to be in addition to or instead of the RTG-DIR
> > reviews=A0as they are done today (i.e., during the IESG=A0Last Call)?
> > IMHO and FWIW it should be=A0an addition, with different RTG-DIR member=
s
> > doing these reviews, because adding a fresh pair of eyes=A0looking at
> > the draft is quite valuable; but=A0I do not know whether this=A0is feas=
ible
> .
>=20
> Good question.  What do others think? Should we continue to review during
> IETF last call as well as at WG adoption and WG last call? Should it be
> the same reviewer all the way through, or a different reviewer at
> different times?
>=20
> > 5. Creating synergies for scattered functionalities is very important;
> > however, I believe that this cannot be provided by just reorganization
> > of the WGs.=A0Just thinking aloud - maybe we need a process that would
> > identify=A0cross-WG items early and effectively handle them in a cross-
> > WG manner all the way?
>=20
> Yes, I'd like to explore that idea and see what processes we would need
> and how this might work.
>=20
> > My 2c,
>=20
> And welcomed.
>=20
> Adrian


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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
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Cc: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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--bcaec50b5112f44fb104faeef486
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Hi Jon,

It might be a good idea to add this reminder and pointer to the wiki to
requests for a while,
until reviewers get into the swing of it.

Alia


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick <
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com> wrote:

> Hi Ross
>
> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when
> you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it now.
>
> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document
> into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their
> comments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>
> Best regards
> Jon
>
> ========
> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents
> Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes
> to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>
> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email
> should move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add
> in a link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If
> any issues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be
> resolved to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved
> (draft number can be useful too).
> ========
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it
> lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>
>         draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>
> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for
> draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> Hi,
>
> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing
> Area
> wiki.
>
> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
> Or you can go there direct at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate
> wiki.
> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since
> this
> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>
> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a
> place for
> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review.
> Could
> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
> convenient.
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list
> documents
> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute
> additional
> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic.
> We
> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it
> takes
> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
> intend doing an additional review.
>
> Three other notes...
> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll
> work to
> polish that.
> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on
> its own
> pages of the Area wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia and Adrian
>
>
>
>

--bcaec50b5112f44fb104faeef486
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jon,<div><br></div><div>It might be a good idea to add =
this reminder and pointer to the wiki to requests for a while,</div><div>un=
til reviewers get into the swing of it.</div><div><br></div><div>Alia</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue,=
 Jun 3, 2014 at 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com" target=3D"_blank">Jonathan.Hardwi=
ck@metaswitch.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ross<br>
<br>
Thanks for the catch. =C2=A0I should have added this document to the list w=
hen you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this. =C2=A0I&#39;ve=
 added it now.<br>
<br>
When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document =
into the &quot;documents previously reviewed&quot; table and add a link to =
their comments. =C2=A0I&#39;ve pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki b=
elow.<br>

<br>
Best regards<br>
Jon<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Cu=
rrently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes t=
o add their name or a draft and name, they may.<br>
<br>
When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should=
 move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a li=
nk to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any iss=
ues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolved=
 to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft n=
umber can be useful too).<br>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org">rtg-dir-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ross Callon<br>
Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org">rtg-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it li=
sts documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt<br>
<br>
Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for d=
raft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?<br>
<br>
Thanks, Ross<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org">rtg-dir-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel<br>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org">rtg-dir@ietf.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a><br>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Ar=
ea<br>
wiki.<br>
<br>
You can get there from <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/</a> or from<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki</a><br>
Or you can go there direct at<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
<br>
We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate w=
iki.<br>
Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since t=
his<br>
is a wiki - just get on and edit it!<br>
<br>
There are some specific pages we hope you will &quot;embrace&quot;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience" =
target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExper=
ience</a> give a place for<br>
you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help<b=
r>
Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. =
Could<br>
you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as<br>
convenient.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev</a=
> will list documents<br>
currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additio=
nal<br>
reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. W=
e<br>
heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it tak=
es<br>
off. =C2=A0It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if=
 you<br>
intend doing an additional review.<br>
<br>
Three other notes...<br>
- The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We&#39;l=
l work to<br>
polish that.<br>
- The &quot;document mentors&quot; program is a work in progress<br>
- English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on it=
s own<br>
pages of the Area wiki.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Alia and Adrian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec50b5112f44fb104faeef486--


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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] statistics ? - Re: Routing Directorate Web Pages now a	Wiki
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] statistics ? - Re: Routing Directorate Web Pages now a	Wiki
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Hi Loa,

There have been 52 review requests since Jan. 2013. There have been 170 sin=
ce we started the review process in 2/2010. This year, we had 20 since Janu=
ary, so the number is increasing.

Before the wiki page was introduced in April, we were using Trac. I don't t=
hink anyone looked at it except Dan and me. Most of the drafts are entered =
on it, except for the last couple of months with the transition from Dan to=
 Jon. I've been keeping track of the requests during this time while we are=
 considering if we continue with it or not. Trak is quite frustrating for w=
hat we are using it for,  e.g. it takes 4 steps to simply assign a reviewer=
 to a draft and then another 3 steps to close out the ticket when the revie=
w is done. And at each step, emails are generated. We found that it was muc=
h more effective to simply send a personal email to a reviewer to request a=
 review, then have the tool generated request as no one responded. Most of =
the spam filters ate the mails, so very unreliable. Here's the link:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/report/6#

The wiki page may be all that we need going forward. Jon and I are looking =
at what to do as we also heard of another tool being used.

Deborah

-----Original Message-----
From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 4:45 AM
To: Jonathan Hardwick
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Subject: [RTG-DIR] statistics ? - Re: Routing Directorate Web Pages now a W=
iki

Jonathan,

Do we have any statistics over how many reviews we done over
e.g. the last 18 months?

/Loa

On 2014-06-03 09:32, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
> Hi Ross
>
> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when=
 you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it no=
w.
>
> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the documen=
t into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their co=
mments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>
> Best regards
> Jon
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents =
Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes=
 to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>
> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email shou=
ld move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a =
link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any i=
ssues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolv=
ed to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft=
 number can be useful too).
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it =
lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>
> 	draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>
> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for=
 draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farre=
l
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> Hi,
>
> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing =
Area
> wiki.
>
> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
> Or you can go there direct at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate=
 wiki.
> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since=
 this
> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>
> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a pla=
ce for
> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review=
. Could
> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
> convenient.
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list docu=
ments
> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute addit=
ional
> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic.=
 We
> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it t=
akes
> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if yo=
u
> intend doing an additional review.
>
> Three other notes...
> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll =
work to
> polish that.
> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on =
its own
> pages of the Area wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia and Adrian
>
>
>

--=20


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@mail01.huawei.com
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa@pi.nu
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


From nobody Tue Jun  3 09:02:57 2014
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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The odds of my remembering to do this wiki update step are very slim.
If you want us to do this step, please include it in the review request. 
  I am willing to try to do so.  With the reminder, the odds are at 
least 50% that I will remember.

Yours,
Joel

On 6/3/14, 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
> Hi Ross
>
> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it now.
>
> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their comments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>
> Best regards
> Jon
>
> ========
> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>
> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any issues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolved to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft number can be useful too).
> ========
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>
> 	draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>
> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> Hi,
>
> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Area
> wiki.
>
> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
> Or you can go there direct at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate wiki.
> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since this
> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>
> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a place for
> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. Could
> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
> convenient.
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list documents
> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additional
> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. We
> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it takes
> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
> intend doing an additional review.
>
> Three other notes...
> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll work to
> polish that.
> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on its own
> pages of the Area wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia and Adrian
>
>
>
>


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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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--001a11c125ea8a0ebe04faf0fa86
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

As an additional reminder, this should also be added to the review
instructions at the top of
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance .

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
wrote:

> The odds of my remembering to do this wiki update step are very slim.
> If you want us to do this step, please include it in the review request.
>  I am willing to try to do so.  With the reminder, the odds are at least
> 50% that I will remember.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
>
> On 6/3/14, 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
>
>> Hi Ross
>>
>> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when
>> you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it now.
>>
>> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the
>> document into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to
>> their comments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Jon
>>
>> ========
>> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents
>> Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes
>> to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>>
>> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email
>> should move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add
>> in a link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If
>> any issues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be
>> resolved to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved
>> (draft number can be useful too).
>> ========
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
>> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
>> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
>> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>>
>> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it
>> lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>>
>>         draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>>
>> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for
>> draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>>
>> Thanks, Ross
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian
>> Farrel
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
>> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
>> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
>> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing
>> Area
>> wiki.
>>
>> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
>> Or you can go there direct at
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>
>> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate
>> wiki.
>> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since
>> this
>> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>>
>> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>>
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a
>> place for
>> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
>> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for
>> review. Could
>> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
>> convenient.
>>
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list
>> documents
>> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute
>> additional
>> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic.
>> We
>> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it
>> takes
>> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if you
>> intend doing an additional review.
>>
>> Three other notes...
>> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll
>> work to
>> polish that.
>> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
>> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on
>> its own
>> pages of the Area wiki.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alia and Adrian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--001a11c125ea8a0ebe04faf0fa86
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">As an additional reminder, this should also be added to th=
e review instructions at the top of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.=
org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/=
trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance</a> .<div>

<br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Andy</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Joel M=
. Halpern <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The odds of my remembering to do this wiki u=
pdate step are very slim.<br>
If you want us to do this step, please include it in the review request. =
=C2=A0I am willing to try to do so. =C2=A0With the reminder, the odds are a=
t least 50% that I will remember.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 6/3/14, 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Ross<br>
<br>
Thanks for the catch. =C2=A0I should have added this document to the list w=
hen you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this. =C2=A0I&#39;ve=
 added it now.<br>
<br>
When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document =
into the &quot;documents previously reviewed&quot; table and add a link to =
their comments. =C2=A0I&#39;ve pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki b=
elow.<br>


<br>
Best regards<br>
Jon<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Cu=
rrently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes t=
o add their name or a draft and name, they may.<br>
<br>
When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should=
 move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a li=
nk to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any iss=
ues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be resolved=
 to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolved (draft n=
umber can be useful too).<br>


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.<u></u>org</a>] On Behalf Of Ross Callon<br>
Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.=
co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@g=
mail.com</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it li=
sts documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt<br>
<br>
Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for d=
raft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?<br>
<br>
Thanks, Ross<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.<u></u>org</a>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel<br=
>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.co=
m</a><br>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Ar=
ea<br>
wiki.<br>
<br>
You can get there from <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/iesg/<u></u>directorate/</a> or from<br=
>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/<u></u>area/rtg/trac/wiki</a><br>
Or you can go there direct at<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/<u></u>area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
<br>
We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate w=
iki.<br>
Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since t=
his<br>
is a wiki - just get on and edit it!<br>
<br>
There are some specific pages we hope you will &quot;embrace&quot;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience" =
target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/<u></u>area/rtg/trac/wiki/<u><=
/u>RtgDirExperience</a> give a place for<br>
you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help<b=
r>
Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. =
Could<br>
you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as<br>
convenient.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/<u></u>area/rtg/trac/wiki/<u></u>R=
tgDirDocRev</a> will list documents<br>
currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additio=
nal<br>
reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. W=
e<br>
heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it tak=
es<br>
off. =C2=A0It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if=
 you<br>
intend doing an additional review.<br>
<br>
Three other notes...<br>
- The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We&#39;l=
l work to<br>
polish that.<br>
- The &quot;document mentors&quot; program is a work in progress<br>
- English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on it=
s own<br>
pages of the Area wiki.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Alia and Adrian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c125ea8a0ebe04faf0fa86--


From nobody Tue Jun  3 11:41:41 2014
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To: "Fedyk, Don" <don.fedyk@hp.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt@tools.ietf.org>,  Ben Niven-Jenkins <ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> (shares@ndzh.com)" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Gen-art LC review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-11
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Hi Don (sorry for the slow reply):

I think we've converged on everything but how the document is, as you 
say, walking the line on what it's recommending for incremental deployment.
I still find the text inconsistent on that point, but will defer to 
Adrian on whether anything needs to be done about it.

Thanks for the effort you've put into getting this finished!

RjS

On 5/19/14, 2:30 PM, Fedyk, Don wrote:
> Hi Robert
>
> I've updated to address Sue's points to try and keep that part clear I'll do that in another email.
> Since your questions are a bit different I have addressed them here inline.
>
> Inline [Don]
>
> Regards,
> Don
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 4:59 PM
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; Fedyk, Don; draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt@tools.ietf.org; Ben Niven-Jenkins; rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Gen-art LC review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-11
>
> Hi Don -
>
> Comments inline based on the diff you sent in another thread:
>
> On 4/10/14, 11:12 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>> Thanks Robert,
>>
>> Will be interested to hear author/shepherd responses to this.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: L2vpn [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Sparks
>>> Sent: 07 April 2014 20:41
>>> To: General Area Review Team;
>> draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt@tools.ietf.org;
>>> l2vpn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Gen-art LC review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-11
>>>
>>> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. For background on
>>> Gen-ART, please see the FAQ at
>>>
>>> <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>>>
>>> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
>>> you may receive.
>>>
>>> Document: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-11
>>> Reviewer: Robert Sparks
>>> Review Date: 7Apr2014
>>> IETF LC End Date: 8Apr2014
>>> IESG Telechat date: not yet scheduled
>>>
>>> Summary: This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed
>>> Standard, but has minor issues (primarily editorial) that should be
>>> addressed.
>>>
>>> I found this document very difficult to read. It asks the reader to hop
>>> between sections in unusual ways (for instance, it sends the reader to
>>> the problem statement section for details on normative behavior).
> That part has been fixed. It's much less of a struggle to follow now,
> but it's
> still not easy (at least for me, not working this particular technology
> all the time).
>    I don't see simple things to change to improve that though.
>>>    I
>>> strongly encourage an editorial pass focusing on document structure.
>>>
>>> There are many instances of SHOULD in the document where the text should
>>> just be using prose instead. It's not always clear when an
>>> implementation would choose to ignore the SHOULD, and what the
>>> consequences of that choice would be.
> Thanks for the general inspection of SHOULDs here.
>
> You changed the SHOULD in the first paragraph of 5.1.3 to a MUST, but
> you left the one in the second paragraph as a SHOULD. Is there a case where
> the recipient _wouldn't_ follow the rules in this section?
> [Don]  Hmm. In general you are correct.  To me, in my experience,  MAC flushing is a bit of an area where creativity comes in.   Some devices can move MACs to other interfaces instead of flushing so to me having a spec that says you SHOULD flush allows other options but saying you MUST flush is restrictive.
>
>
>>> The document is inconsistent about the level of support needed in the
>>> network before trying to use this extension.
>>> Section 5.1.2 says the assumption is everything understands it before
>>> it's turned on. Section 6 points back to figure 2 and says
>>> to use the extension over the pw where you administratively know the
>>> peer supports the extension, and fall back to 4762 for
>>> everything else. Which of those did you intend?
> This is still confusing to me. I must be misreading something.
> In 5.1.2, you have:
>
>      Note that the assumption is the MAC flush TLV is understood by all
>      devices before it is turned on in any network.
>
> Doesn't that preclude the kind of incremental deployment you talk about
> in section 6 with:
>
>      Thus in the topology described
>      in figure 2, an implementation could support PE1-rs sending optimized
>      MAC Flush towards the PE-rs devices that support the solution and
>      PE2-rs device initiating [RFC4762] style of MAC Flush towards the PE-
>      rs devices that do not support the optimized solution during
>      upgrades.
>
> "devices that do not support" and "understood by all devices" don't seem
> to go together. Is the sentence in 5.1.2 perhaps not scoped as intended?
>
> [Don] the text is walking the line between:
> 1. How we recommend to deploy
> 2. What happens (at worst) if you don't deploy the way we recommended.
>
> Stated another way, why does the very next paragraph in 5.1.2 have a SHOULD
> instead of a MUST if the assumption is that all devices understand the
> optimization before you turn it on? :
> [Don] It is the style of the text.
> If you want to deploy you SHOULD do it this way but MUST is not necessary if you are willing to live with the consequences.
>   
>
>      The MAC withdraw procedures defined in [RFC4762], where either the
>      MTU-s or PE2-rs send the MAC Withdraw message SHOULD be used in cases
>      where the network is being upgraded until all devices are capable of
>      understanding the optimized MAC flush.
>
>
> For the rest, things that I don't comment on are sufficiently addressed
> - thanks!
>
>>> Specific comments in document order:
>>>
>>> Section 3.2 paragraph 1: This paragraph would benefit from being broken
>>> into several. It's hard to find its point. The SHOULD in this paragraph
>>> is probably not a 2119 SHOULD (this section isn't defining the
>>> protocol). It would be useful in this overview to explicitly say _why_
>>> "This cannot be achieved with ... 4762]" at this point in the document.
>>>
>>> Section 3.2 paragraph 2: This SHOULD _is_ defining protocol - shouldn't
>>> it be in section 5?
> You turned this 'SHOULD' into a 'should', but I don't find where the
> analogous
> normative statement is in section 5. (searching for the word "affected"
> doesn't
> turn it up anyhow - I could just be not seeing it from reading to
> quickly - is it
> easy to point to?)
>>> Section 4.1.1 paragraph 3: It took me some time to find Z on the figure.
>>> It might help to introduce it similar to how you introduce X.
>>>
>>> Section 4.1.2: paragraph 1: I think you meant to reference 4.1.1
>>>
>>> Section 5: The first sentence talks about requirements in section 4.
>>> Section 4 describes a problem using some examples but doesn't explicitly
>>> call out requirements. Doing so would help the document.
>>>
>>> Last sentence in 5.1.1 (and several other places in the document):
>>> Please add an article before "MAC Flush message".  (I apologize for such
>>> a small nit, but each of these instances made making sure I was reading
>>> what the sentence intended significantly more difficult).
> Thanks for making the changes in the new document - they really help.
>
> Just in case, please check these places to see if an article would be
> helpfule there too?
>
>      This section describes the processing rules of MAC Flush TLV that
>
>      full mesh with MAC Flush TLV that carries N=1.  Other PE-rs devices
>
>      - The usage and processing rules of MAC Flush Parameters TLV in the
>
>      If MAC Flush Parameters TLV is received by a Backbone Edge Bridges
>
>      As mentioned before, if MAC Flush Parameters TLV is not understood by
>
>
> [Don] Will update.
>
>
>>> Section 5.1.2 first paragraph: This section is defining behavior - why
>>> are you sending the reader back into the problem statement for detail on
>>> the behavior?
>>>
>>> 5.1.2 paragraph 2: You meant section 6, not 5.
>>>
>>> 5.1.2 paragraph 3: I can't follow this paragraph's structure. I think
>>> you're trying to say "An MTU-s or PE2-rs SHOULD send MAC withdraw
>>> messages as defined in [RFC4762] in cases where the network is being
>>> upgraded and devices are not capable of understanding the optimized MAC
>>> flush." (But if so, the next sentence is redundant.) Why is this SHOULD?
> (see above)
>>> 5.1.3 paragraph 1: Why is this a SHOULD and not a MUST? (Similar
>>> question for the SHOULD in paragraph 2). It's not clear if you're trying
>>> to avoid "Some things won't implement this spec" or "Don't do this if
>>> you haven't administratively ensured every element understands this
>>> extension first" or something else?
>>>
>>> 5.1.3 paragraph 3: You say "unless specified otherwise". Do you ever
>>> specify otherwise? Why is this disclaimer here?
>>>
>>> 5.1.3 last paragraph: You meant section 6 not 5.
>>>
>>>
>>>


From nobody Tue Jun  3 11:50:23 2014
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 18:50:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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From nobody Tue Jun  3 18:19:44 2014
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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 21:19:33 -0400
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
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[Apologies, this review was due two weeks ago.  On the other hand, you 
have reved it 3 times during my laggard behavior.]

Hello mpls WG,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. 
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related 
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and 
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide 
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing 
Directorate, please see ​ 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it 
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF 
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through 
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern
Review Date: 3-June-2014
IETF LC End Date: closed
Intended Status: Standards Track

This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that 
should be considered prior to publication.

The one nit is that I could not find the text indicating that if a 
receiver receives an unauthenticated LDP Hello packet, and is expecting 
authentication to be used (either always, or with the source the packet 
claims to be from) then the hello packet should be silently discarded.

Yours,
Joel


From nobody Tue Jun  3 19:29:33 2014
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 02:29:20 +0000
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Cc: "draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp.all@tools.ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "isis-wg@ietf.org" <isis-wg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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--_000_F3ADE4747C9E124B89F0ED2180CC814F23DF6CE2xmbalnx02ciscoc_--


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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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From nobody Tue Jun  3 23:42:30 2014
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 06:58:47 +0530
Message-ID: <CAG1kdohkCA4X9yc45VT5wwtUHd8V2duYBJnMifrhin69J7-Qpg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth@tools.ietf.org, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
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--001a11c22172ce237b04faf88cf8
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Hi Joel,

Thanks for the review.

I am surprised we dont have this covered. If its not there, then we'll add
text to log an error message+drop packet as opposed to silently discarding
the packet.

Cheers, Manav


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote=
:

> [Apologies, this review was due two weeks ago.  On the other hand, you
> have reved it 3 times during my laggard behavior.]
>
> Hello mpls WG,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes
> on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to
> the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, plea=
se
> see =E2=80=8B http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las=
t
> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
> discussion or by updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
> Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern
> Review Date: 3-June-2014
> IETF LC End Date: closed
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
> This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that shoul=
d
> be considered prior to publication.
>
> The one nit is that I could not find the text indicating that if a
> receiver receives an unauthenticated LDP Hello packet, and is expecting
> authentication to be used (either always, or with the source the packet
> claims to be from) then the hello packet should be silently discarded.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>

--001a11c22172ce237b04faf88cf8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Joel,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the review.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>I am surprised we dont have this covered. If its not ther=
e, then we&#39;ll add text to log an error message+drop packet as opposed t=
o silently discarding the packet.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers, Manav</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Joel M. Hal=
pern <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D=
"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">[Apologies, this review was due two weeks ag=
o. =C2=A0On the other hand, you have reved it 3 times during my laggard beh=
avior.]<br>

<br>
Hello mpls WG,<br>
<br>
I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th=
e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts=
 as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec=
ial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Rout=
ing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=
=80=8B <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/<u></u>area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir<=
/a><br>

<br>
Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo=
uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca=
ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion=
 or by updating the draft.<br>

<br>
Document: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-<u></u>crypto-auth-08.txt<br>
Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern<br>
Review Date: 3-June-2014<br>
IETF LC End Date: closed<br>
Intended Status: Standards Track<br>
<br>
This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should =
be considered prior to publication.<br>
<br>
The one nit is that I could not find the text indicating that if a receiver=
 receives an unauthenticated LDP Hello packet, and is expecting authenticat=
ion to be used (either always, or with the source the packet claims to be f=
rom) then the hello packet should be silently discarded.<br>

<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c22172ce237b04faf88cf8--


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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 06:51:17 +0000
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References: <049701cf5a5d$9422ca00$bc685e00$@olddog.co.uk> <c205a2534adb481690077be8ba4f75b6@CO2PR05MB636.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <09CE6C3BE5E1EA40B987BF5F25D8DDBAE7941324@ENFICSMBX1.datcon.co.uk> <538DF1A7.3040108@joelhalpern.com> <CAA=duU1H9XJ1h3NT+f5+cMriCuBokPsGt1Y1eyG_1P2H7jDT3A@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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--_000_09CE6C3BE5E1EA40B987BF5F25D8DDBAE7941ABFENFICSMBX1datco_--


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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>, <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth@tools.ietf.org>, <mpls@ietf.org>
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 12:44:26 +0100
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
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Thanks Joel!

I have added your nit to my IESG evaluation as a Comment so that we =
don't drop it.

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. =
Halpern
> Sent: 04 June 2014 02:20
> To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-
> auth@tools.ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of =
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-
> crypto-auth-08.txt
>=20
> [Apologies, this review was due two weeks ago.  On the other hand, you
> have reved it 3 times during my laggard behavior.]
>=20
> Hello mpls WG,
>=20
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this =
draft.
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
> sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide
> assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing
> Directorate, please see=20
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>=20
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, =
it
> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
> Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them =
through
> discussion or by updating the draft.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-hello-crypto-auth-08.txt
> Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern
> Review Date: 3-June-2014
> IETF LC End Date: closed
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>=20
> This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that
> should be considered prior to publication.
>=20
> The one nit is that I could not find the text indicating that if a
> receiver receives an unauthenticated LDP Hello packet, and is =
expecting
> authentication to be used (either always, or with the source the =
packet
> claims to be from) then the hello packet should be silently discarded.
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel


From nobody Wed Jun  4 07:32:35 2014
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 10:32:17 -0400
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
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Cc: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
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Good idea :-)

Alia


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 2:51 AM, Jonathan Hardwick <
Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com> wrote:

>  All,
>
>
>
> Agreed, we should include a reminder in the review requests from now on.
> (I will try to remember to do so!)
>
>
>
> I think it would be good if we could automate some of these manual steps.
> I=E2=80=99m going to investigate this.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew
> G. Malis
> *Sent:* 03 June 2014 17:26
> *To:* Joel M. Halpern
> *Cc:* Jonathan Hardwick; Ross Callon; akatlas@gmail.com;
> adrian@olddog.co.uk; rtg-dir@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
>
>
> As an additional reminder, this should also be added to the review
> instructions at the top of
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance .
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> wrote:
>
> The odds of my remembering to do this wiki update step are very slim.
> If you want us to do this step, please include it in the review request.
>  I am willing to try to do so.  With the reminder, the odds are at least
> 50% that I will remember.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
>
>
> On 6/3/14, 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:
>
> Hi Ross
>
> Thanks for the catch.  I should have added this document to the list when
> you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this.  I've added it n=
ow.
>
> When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the documen=
t
> into the "documents previously reviewed" table and add a link to their
> comments.  I've pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki below.
>
> Best regards
> Jon
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents
> Currently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wish=
es
> to add their name or a draft and name, they may.
>
> When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email
> should move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add
> in a link to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. I=
f
> any issues were found, then the Issues Resolved should start as No and be
> resolved to Yes with the date by the reviewer when they have been resolve=
d
> (draft number can be useful too).
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; akatlas@gmail.com
> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it
> lists documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:
>
>         draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt
>
> Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for
> draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farre=
l
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
> Cc: akatlas@gmail.com
> Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki
>
> Hi,
>
> Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing
> Area
> wiki.
>
> You can get there from http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/ or from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki
> Or you can go there direct at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate
> wiki.
> Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since
> this
> is a wiki - just get on and edit it!
>
> There are some specific pages we hope you will "embrace"
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience give a
> place for
> you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help
> Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review=
.
> Could
> you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as
> convenient.
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev will list
> documents
> currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute
> additional
> reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic.
> We
> heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it
> takes
> off.  It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if yo=
u
> intend doing an additional review.
>
> Three other notes...
> - The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We'll
> work to
> polish that.
> - The "document mentors" program is a work in progress
> - English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on
> its own
> pages of the Area wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia and Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--20cf303a2d61cf4fdd04fb037e78
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Good idea :-)<div><br></div><div>Alia</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at=
 2:51 AM, Jonathan Hardwick <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jonatha=
n.Hardwick@metaswitch.com" target=3D"_blank">Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">All,<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Agreed, we should include=
 a reminder in the review requests from now on.=C2=A0 (I will try to rememb=
er to do so!)<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I think it would be good =
if we could automate some of these manual steps.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m going to=
 investigate this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cheers<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Jon<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew G. Malis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 June 2014 17:26<br>
<b>To:</b> Joel M. Halpern<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jonathan Hardwick; Ross Callon; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@oldd=
og.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-=
dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir@ietf.org</a></span></p>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As an additional reminder, this should also be added=
 to the review instructions at the top of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://trac.tools=
.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.=
tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirGuidance</a> .<u></u><u></u></p>

<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Joel M. Halpern &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The odds of my remembering to do this wiki update st=
ep are very slim.<br>
If you want us to do this step, please include it in the review request. =
=C2=A0I am willing to try to do so. =C2=A0With the reminder, the odds are a=
t least 50% that I will remember.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
On 6/3/14, 3:32 AM, Jonathan Hardwick wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Ross<br>
<br>
Thanks for the catch. =C2=A0I should have added this document to the list w=
hen you agreed to review it, my apologies for dropping this. =C2=A0I&#39;ve=
 added it now.<br>
<br>
When reviewers have completed their reviews, they should move the document =
into the &quot;documents previously reviewed&quot; table and add a link to =
their comments. =C2=A0I&#39;ve pasted the relevant guidance from the wiki b=
elow.<br>

<br>
Best regards<br>
Jon<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
When a draft is assigned for review, it should be added to the Documents Cu=
rrently Under Review by the Coordinator. If an additional reviewer wishes t=
o add their name or a draft and name, they may.<br>
<br>
When a review is done, the reviewer in addition to sending the email should=
 move the draft to the top of Documents Previously Reviewed and add in a li=
nk to the message in the mail archive where the review was sent. If any iss=
ues were found, then the Issues
 Resolved should start as No and be resolved to Yes with the date by the re=
viewer when they have been resolved (draft number can be useful too).<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ross Callon<br>
Sent: 02 June 2014 22:28<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.=
co.uk</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a=
><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
One comment: the Wiki is slightly out of date. There is a place where it li=
sts documents currently under review. However, it is lacking:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt<br>
<br>
Was I supposed to fix this myself as the routing directorate reviewer for d=
raft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp-01.txt?<br>
<br>
Thanks, Ross<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: rtg-dir [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel<br>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:54 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-dir@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.co=
m</a><br>
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Web Pages now a Wiki<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Alia and I have moved the Routing Directorate web pages into the Routing Ar=
ea<br>
wiki.<br>
<br>
You can get there from <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/</a> or from<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki</a><br>
Or you can go there direct at<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir</a><br>
<br>
We would love your thoughts on the whole Area wiki and on the Directorate w=
iki.<br>
Alternatively, since we are a contribution-driven organisation, and since t=
his<br>
is a wiki - just get on and edit it!<br>
<br>
There are some specific pages we hope you will &quot;embrace&quot;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExperience" =
target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirExper=
ience</a> give a place for<br>
you to briefly list your areas of interest and experience. This will help<b=
r>
Deborah, John, and us to know where to best dispatch documents for review. =
Could<br>
you please update this page (use the format of the example) as soon as<br>
convenient.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocRev</a=
> will list documents<br>
currently under review. This gives you an opportunity to contribute additio=
nal<br>
reviews if you have some spare time or an interest in a particular topic. W=
e<br>
heard from several of you that this might be a good idea, so we hope it tak=
es<br>
off. =C2=A0It would help everyone if you could add your name to the list if=
 you<br>
intend doing an additional review.<br>
<br>
Three other notes...<br>
- The description of the way the Directorate works is out of date. We&#39;l=
l work to<br>
polish that.<br>
- The &quot;document mentors&quot; program is a work in progress<br>
- English review is not a Directorate process, but we are adding this on it=
s own<br>
pages of the Area wiki.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Alia and Adrian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf303a2d61cf4fdd04fb037e78--


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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 18:28:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-fs-lsp
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2014 21:10:40 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
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Alia, Adrian,
   
Sorry about being slow to respond.  A couple of largely unrelated points
to consider as part of this exercise:

A) There seems to be tension between doing the "quick & simple" vs doing
something that is more "common & generic".   I think there is a tricky
line to walk, and getting the balance right is not easy.  Focusing too
much on the former is very satisfying from a milestone perspective, but
it can result in many different solutions/implementations that are
essentially aimed at variations of the same problem.  Of course focusing
to much on the latter can lead to never having anything defined (I just
saw a WG in another area give up a problem because, IMO, they were too
focused on this.)  I think it will be interesting to consider,  directly
discuss, and document this tension as part of the WG reorg.

- As part of the training, it might be useful to have some material
covering what is minimally/really needed in a PS to ensure interoperable
implementations.  I think this is more of an issue for (new, and
sometimes not) authors than chairs, but if the chairs & rtg-dir have
this in hand it could be really helpful.  (I have my standard list that
I seem to always be bringing up to authors, others probably have theirs
too and combining such might be really helpful.)

Lou

On 5/30/2014 3:53 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> To all the Routing WG Chairs & Routing Directorate Members:
>
> Enclosed is an email that we intend to send to
> routing-discussion@ietf.org <mailto:routing-discussion@ietf.org> on
> Monday June 9.
>
> As you may recall, Adrian and I asked how to improve getting work done
> in the area.  After discussion, we think that includes working group
> reorganization.  
>
> We depend very heavily upon you to come up with solid proposals for
> the reorganized WGs and their suggested WG chairs.
>
> Thanks,
> Alia & Adrian
>
>
> =============================
>
> To all participants in the Routing Area,
>
> Adrian and I are working on improving the quality, speed, and
> experience of getting work done in the IETF Routing Area.  There are
> three initiatives that we are working: WG Draft QA, Routing Area
> specific WG chair training, and reorganizing the working groups in the
> area.
>
> First, we intend to use our Routing Directorate more proactively by
> introducing a Working Group Draft Quality Assurance (WG Draft QA)
> process where the same selected routing directorate member will review
> a draft during WG draft adoption and during WG last call.  The process
> will be documented on the Routing Area wiki.  This should allow
> directorate reviews to report technical issues that can actually get
> fixed early in the process (equiv of bug reports) as opposed to just
> noting the concerns in the drafts (equiv of release notes).
>
> Second, in addition to the IETF-wide WG chair training, we intend to
> have a series of training sessions for WG Chairs in the Routing Area
> addressing topics such as judging consensus, project management,
> motivating volunteers, using the datatracker (via a sandbox version
> that can be safely played with), and sharing experiences between WG
> chairs.
>
> Third, we intend to reorganize the working groups in the Routing area.
> We feel that it is important to focus on areas where there is active
> interest in standardization and to be open and able to accept new work
> into the area.  As you know, we have had several new working groups
> (nvo3, i2rs, sfc, spring) created in the last few years and we need to
> be open and able to handle more new work as it comes in.  We would
> also like to improve the signal-to-noise ratio experienced by
> participants in the different working groups and improve the quantity
> and quality of discussion and reviews.  It is likely that not all WGs
> in the Routing Area will be directly affected.
>
> Here is the time-line for reorganizing the WGs.
>
>    NOW: public discussion on routing-discussion@ietf.org
> <mailto:routing-discussion@ietf.org> about how to
>    reorganize the working groups to best meet our motivations.
>    Additional focused discussions are expected on the
>    rtg-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-chairs@ietf.org> and
> rtg-dir@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-dir@ietf.org> mailing lists.
>
>    In Toronto: There will be meetings with the WG chairs and the
>    Routing Directorate to get the ideas described and agreed upon.
>
>    At the Routing Area Meeting in Toronto: Discuss the set of
>    reorganized WGs and general charter content in the Routing Area
>    meeting.
>
>    September 2014: Based upon the feedback, suggestions, and
>    discussion, Adrian and I finalize the reorganized WG charters.  We
>    start the internal IESG and public reviews.
>
>    October 2014: Formal rechartering process completes.
>
>    In Honolulu: The new set of WGs meet.
>
>    After Honolulu: Adrian and I deal with any issues and charter
>    updates based upon a few months of experience.
>
> Here are the motivations that Adrian and I would like to be considered
> when coming up with ideas for how the WGs should be reorganized.
>
>    1) Towards functional organization instead of just protocol
>
>    2) Split giant working groups so relevant work done together with
>    improved signal-to-noise ratio for participants
>
>    3) Create synergies for scattered functionality (example ideas:
>    OAM, FRR, traffic-engineering)
>
>    4) DISPATCH working group for clear new idea discussion; rtgwg
>    serves some of this purpose but doesn't have a clear process and
>    isn't drawing in the new ideas.
>
>    5) Focus Routing Area time on design centers rather than on far
>    corner cases.
>
>    6) Each working group should have clear, well defined, and
> achievable goals.
>
> Noting that the Routing Area has inherited some of its WG structure
> from the sub-IP area, it is not a goal to force IP routing and MPLS
> routing to remain separated.
>
> For those of you that have read this far, thank you.  Getting this 80%
> right is going to take some serious discussion and thought.  We all
> work in the Routing Area together with different perspectives.  Please
> think carefully and help us have a highly focused discussion.
>
> Thanks,


From nobody Mon Jun  9 03:59:55 2014
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To: "'Alia Atlas'" <akatlas@gmail.com>, <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "'Adrian Farrel'" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
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Y'all:

I know this is a really old email, but I'm sometimes just that far =
behind. :-(

> Third, we intend to reorganize the working groups in the Routing area.
> We feel that it is important to focus on areas where there is active =
interest in
> standardization and to be open and able to accept new work into the =
area.
> As you know, we have had several new working groups (nvo3, i2rs, sfc,
> spring) created in the last few years and we need to be open and able =
to
> handle more new work as it comes in.  We would also like to improve =
the
> signal-to-noise ratio experienced by participants in the different =
working
> groups and improve the quantity and quality of discussion and reviews. =
 It is
> likely that not all WGs in the Routing Area will be directly affected.

It occurred to me that it might be useful to split specific work from =
more general work by building a "two tier" structure of some sort here. =
What if we made design teams a normal part of business and the smallest =
component of work, rather than the working group? What I'm thinking is a =
process something like this:

- New work is always proposed on a rtg area wide (either rtg-area or =
rtg-wg) mailing list
- Once momentum is behind that new work (meaning we get to a -01 of a =
use cases or requirements draft), then a design team is formed on the =
mailing list for this work
- At the time the design team is formed, it's also assigned to a "mother =
ship" protocol level (or otherwise) working group=20
- The design team has a specific charter, much like a task specific =
working group, with timelines, suggested output, etc., and a mailing =
list
- As the design team progresses, it has regular presentations and =
reports into the working group it's tethered to
- Primary review falls on the design team member, second level on the =
working group, third level on the directorate, etc.
- If the work succeeds, then the drafts are (eventually) tossed in as =
working group documents

I think part of the problem is that we have working group confusion -- =
I2RS is about gathering requirements, and determining if we need a =
protocol, OSPF is about OSPF, SIDR is about modifying the protocol of =
another working group, etc. Some WG's are formed based on a perceived =
need, others are formed based on working on a specific protocol in a =
more general way -- this means we have a mish mash of various things =
going on in different places.=20

Converting the WG role into more of an advisor of design teams would =
provide one more level of review, the ability for people to work on more =
specific projects they want to work on (and leaving others to focus on =
the overall protocol going forward). The process of discussing the idea =
in the routing area wide first would give us more focus in thinking =
about new working groups, and the design team process would allow us to =
(potentially) commit less time and resources to new work until it's had =
a little time to bake, and to see better whether work will actually =
progress into a new protocol (which means a new WG), be restricted to a =
single protocol, or be something that applies to multiple protocols =
(which probably means a new WG, but some work could live forever as a =
design team under the rtg-wg).

This might be "too much structure," or it might help us sort the =
difference between functions and protocols in some better way (?).

:-)

Russ=20


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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 10:09:44 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: Russ White <russw@riw.us>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>,  rtg-dir@ietf.org, 'Adrian Farrel' <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/va5OGf_ciDB4ujrCVdtq9cBa_Iw
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Plan for reorganizing the Routing Area
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Russ,
    What you describe has been informally repeated in ccamp for each new
technology/major extension that has been proposed.  One of the patterns
that has reoccurred along with it is that the set of authors involved
(the informal/self organized design team) come up with a solution that 
fully addresses their requirements, but does so without regard for
future common reuse and often miss  existing protocol mechanisms.   The
challenge with this is that the authors believe they have a fully baked
solution ready for RFC and now the WG needs to convince them to make
changes in their 'perceived perfectly adequate' solution to avoid
duplication of mechanisms in the same protocol (for slightly different
applications).

I do like your idea of formalizing this process as part of the
solution.  If the above took place as WG design team, rather than as
'individual' work, the chairs could ensure early
participation/review/contribution from those in the WG who have border
understanding. The likelihood of needing to do major changes once the
design team completed should be lower than what we've seen in  the
past.  (BTW my personal approach in trying to address this problem is to
get work adopted as WG drafts when they are less mature, but I've been
surprised that this has met with some resistance -- perhaps the design
team approach would be more acceptable to some.)  

Lou

On 6/9/2014 6:59 AM, Russ White wrote:
> Y'all:
>
> I know this is a really old email, but I'm sometimes just that far behind. :-(
>
>> Third, we intend to reorganize the working groups in the Routing area.
>> We feel that it is important to focus on areas where there is active interest in
>> standardization and to be open and able to accept new work into the area.
>> As you know, we have had several new working groups (nvo3, i2rs, sfc,
>> spring) created in the last few years and we need to be open and able to
>> handle more new work as it comes in.  We would also like to improve the
>> signal-to-noise ratio experienced by participants in the different working
>> groups and improve the quantity and quality of discussion and reviews.  It is
>> likely that not all WGs in the Routing Area will be directly affected.
> It occurred to me that it might be useful to split specific work from more general work by building a "two tier" structure of some sort here. What if we made design teams a normal part of business and the smallest component of work, rather than the working group? What I'm thinking is a process something like this:
>
> - New work is always proposed on a rtg area wide (either rtg-area or rtg-wg) mailing list
> - Once momentum is behind that new work (meaning we get to a -01 of a use cases or requirements draft), then a design team is formed on the mailing list for this work
> - At the time the design team is formed, it's also assigned to a "mother ship" protocol level (or otherwise) working group 
> - The design team has a specific charter, much like a task specific working group, with timelines, suggested output, etc., and a mailing list
> - As the design team progresses, it has regular presentations and reports into the working group it's tethered to
> - Primary review falls on the design team member, second level on the working group, third level on the directorate, etc.
> - If the work succeeds, then the drafts are (eventually) tossed in as working group documents
>
> I think part of the problem is that we have working group confusion -- I2RS is about gathering requirements, and determining if we need a protocol, OSPF is about OSPF, SIDR is about modifying the protocol of another working group, etc. Some WG's are formed based on a perceived need, others are formed based on working on a specific protocol in a more general way -- this means we have a mish mash of various things going on in different places. 
>
> Converting the WG role into more of an advisor of design teams would provide one more level of review, the ability for people to work on more specific projects they want to work on (and leaving others to focus on the overall protocol going forward). The process of discussing the idea in the routing area wide first would give us more focus in thinking about new working groups, and the design team process would allow us to (potentially) commit less time and resources to new work until it's had a little time to bake, and to see better whether work will actually progress into a new protocol (which means a new WG), be restricted to a single protocol, or be something that applies to multiple protocols (which probably means a new WG, but some work could live forever as a design team under the rtg-wg).
>
> This might be "too much structure," or it might help us sort the difference between functions and protocols in some better way (?).
>
> :-)
>
> Russ 
>
>


From nobody Mon Jun  9 13:14:48 2014
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Carlos:=20

Thank you for the feedback.  I'll talk to the authors about extending =
the security section.  Would you be willing to review a revised security =
section?=20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 11:33 AM
To: rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org
Cc: <rtg-dir@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. =
The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related =
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and =
sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide =
assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing =
Directorate, please see =
=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it =
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF =
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through =
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt=20
Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro
Review Date: June 6, 2014
IETF LC End Date: ?
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:

I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be =
resolved before publication.

Comments:

This document is really well written and very comprehensive. It is =
clear, complete (modulo minor comments below), and accurate.

Minor Issues:

The Security Considerations of this document are oversimplified to say =
"check the security of all these references". I think that some more =
detailed description of the security aspects is necessary. For example, =
checking the security on the cited documents, I do not believe there is =
discussion of security issues introduced by measuring (effect of =
synthetic packets, etc). A second security element is compromising the =
measurement itself, and associated implications. Lastly, the OAM =
Authentication TLV protects against forged/crafted OAM packets. Some =
deeper description of the tradeoffs of using it as it pertains affecting =
a measurement would be useful.

Nits:

A small nit, in the Abbreviations section, it would be useful to add a =
citation to [OAM] next to the acronym definition to be prescriptive =
about the definition used for the acronym (and there's a comma missing)

OLD:
   OAM      Operations, Administration and Maintenance

NEW:
   OAM      Operations, Administration, and Maintenance [OAM]

Thanks,

Carlos.


From nobody Mon Jun  9 16:41:13 2014
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:24:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:48:08 +0300
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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From nobody Wed Jun 18 02:14:00 2014
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)'" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "'Tal Mizrahi'" <talmi@marvell.com>
References: <3CAC599D-A4C7-4E09-944B-E834667F94E1@cisco.com> <004901cf841f$711f8f20$535ead60$@ndzh.com> <1C9D67C2-BC04-4C6C-9FD2-8BDCE91C0D3B@cisco.com> <74470498B659FA4687F0B0018C19A89C01E731DD8FE9@IL-MB01.marvell.com> <34D38D50-BED4-4EF6-B0E8-F2E94B3449DE@cisco.com> <74470498B659FA4687F0B0018C19A89C01E731E8E6BF@IL-MB01.marvell.com> <CFC46837.5BA10%cpignata@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <CFC46837.5BA10%cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 10:13:31 +0100
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Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
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Carlos, Thanks for diligence is pushing on with the review.
Tal and Sue, thanks for the efforts to make Carlos happy :-)

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]
> Sent: 16 June 2014 13:24
> To: Tal Mizrahi
> Cc: Susan Hares; rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-trill-loss-
> delay.all@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-loss-delay-04.txt
>=20
> Hi Tal,
>=20
> This looks great =E2=80=94 many thanks!
>=20
> Carlos.


From nobody Sat Jun 21 09:00:40 2014
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:59:41 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org, mpls@ietf.org
Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt
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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is
to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the
Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt
Reviewer: Lou Berger
Review Date: June 21 2014
IETF LC End Date: 2014-06-23
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:
    I have some minor concerns about this document that I think
    should  (must, actually) be resolved before publication.

Comments:

    I think the document is well written and, other than a couple of
    terminology related issues, easily understood.  The document does
    have a number of terminology and technical issues which should be
    readily resolved prior to publication.

Major Issues:

    Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the
    document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will
    become involved.  Please include all of the major issues you have
    found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section
    numbers, paragraph counts).  If you find no major issues, please
    write: "No major issues found."

- No major issues found.  In particular, I expect all issues can be
  resolved without AD intervention.  Some of the minor issues, if not
  resolved will be escalated to the AD/major issue category.

Minor Issues:

    Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that
    should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would
    normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers.  Please
    include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context
    information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts).
    If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found."

- Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources:

  In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the
  distinction between protection and restoration is based on when
  resources are "committed".  This difference from past
  definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection
  and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not
  *committed*.  To quote RFC 4427:

    The distinction between protection and restoration is made based
    on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span
    establishment.  The distinction between different types of
    restoration is made based on the level of route computation,
    signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration
    LSP/span establishment.

  This difference also leads to come confused statements in the
  document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the
  reader.  The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this
  document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how
  "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in
  Section 3.1 which states:

     However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the
     shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection
     path is actually activated.  Therefore, for the purists -
     regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between
     protection and restoration.

  Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to
  cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path
  but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are
  used in earlier RFCs.)  The second conclusion is based on the new
  distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with
  the existing distinction.

  This issue exists in multiple places in the document where
  "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced
  with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation",
  "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ...

  Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the
  document related to this issue.  There are a couple of places in the
  document where I think it's possible that once this terminology
  ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments.

- Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence.  This sentence really defines
  the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions
  to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the
  requirements set out in this document."  As such, I'd repeat this in
  the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or
  3).

- General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP
  protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP?
  I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be
  required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed
  case, but don't see this in the document.

- In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining
  preemption terminology and behavior.  I think 6372 is the right
  reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and
  in dependent of control plane.

- In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be
  carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to
  GMPLS [RFC3945]."  perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"?  If so, great,
  please make the correction.  If not, I think the debate of which
  control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this
  document.

- Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here?  If
  referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are
  informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover
  mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to
  an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most
  you can say is MAY.

- Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP
  domain."  As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking
  rules" should be defined directly or by reference.

- Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification
  leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to
  do more / not just follow 6372?

- Section 5.7.  There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as
  well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP
  establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported
  independent of preemption mode.

Nits:

- Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used in any
  earlier related/referenced RFCs.  Rather than introduce a new (and
  undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g.,
  "protection switch"?

- Section 1, paragraph 1.  Do we really need another definition of
  MPLS-TP to debate?  I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP
  document(s) and dropping the first four sentences.

  The last sentence also makes a subjective statement.  Whether it is
  critical or no is unnecessary.  You can just say something like 6372
  provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation
  for this document.

- Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428?
  Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and
  4427/4428 don't use it.

- Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory
  text.  I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1.

- Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane
  solutions for SMP within MPLS".

- Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term.

- Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously".  Do you really
  mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for
  protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1.

- Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements
  list.

- Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence.  These
  both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say
  slightly different things.  I suggest combine into a single
  requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic.

- Section 5.2, req 5.  How does this relate to section 5.5?  Shouldn't
  the topics related to timing be consolidated?

- Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be
  dropped.

- Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9?  Why call out
  just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement?

- Section 5.3. s/MAY/will

- section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the
  node not the path.

- Section 5.4, last sentence.  This is only the 2nd time you imply that
  the document covers requirements on a new protocol.  I think this
  point is currently too subtle in the document.  (This point was also
  made as a minor comment.)

- section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced



From nobody Tue Jun 24 13:11:46 2014
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <routing-discussion@ietf.org>, <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, <rtg-chairs@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:11:35 +0100
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing ADs Office Hours in Toronto
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Hi,

As usual the Routing ADs will hold open office on Sunday at IETF-90.

We'll be in the IESG Breakout Room (room to be announced later or check with the
Secretariat) from 14.30-16.00 on Sunday afternoon.

The purpose of the meeting is to allow you to come along and raise / discuss any
issues or concerns you have about routing or the Area. 

Clearly the hot topic is potential reorganisation of the area and we are happy
to have discussion of that at the open office. We will also be dedicating a good
chunk of the Area meeting on Thursday to that topic, so don't feel restricted to
only talk to us about that.

See you in Toronto,
Adrian and Alia


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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, <rtg-chairs@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:14:02 +0100
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Subject: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto
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Chairs and Directorate,

Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and discuss Area
reorganisation with us.

We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG WG meetings,
so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced.

The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will not be a
private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will not throw
them out!

Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay engaged.

Adrian and Alia

