From nobody Wed Apr 6 10:36:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B316A12D6D9; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 10:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TBf9E-Mqb0Dt; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 10:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97D7612D0F3; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 10:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u36ExIf3043440; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:01:47 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2254ev0rk2-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:01:47 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u36F1jtX014116; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:01:45 -0400 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u36F1XMr013575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:01:38 -0400 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.146]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:01:19 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.49]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.146]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:01:19 -0400 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Routing Area Directorate updates Thread-Index: AdGQEU5cDaO4fAC9SX+oo715MCt6ng== Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:01:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.234.235] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C85286FDAAMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-06_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1601100000 definitions=main-1604060221 Archived-At: Cc: " \(rtg-ads@ietf.org\)" , "Jonathan Hardwick \(Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com\)" , "Zhangxian \(Xian\)" , "Jon Hudson \(jon.hudson@gmail.com\)" Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Area Directorate updates X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:36:17 -0000 --_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C85286FDAAMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We've added a third Coordinator, Xian Zhang. Welcome Xian! Your reviews have been really helpful for improving our documents and we wa= nt to expand to do more of the Routing Area documents before submitting to = the IESG. We also may ask your help on drafts from other Areas that may hav= e routing implications. To better utilize everyone, we're going to move to = a different assignment model for reviews. We're going to do as in other Are= as, we're going to use a round-robin model. The other Areas use a tool for = the assignment, our Coordinators will let you know how they will do it. To ensure we have timely reviews, it will be really important that you resp= ond quickly when receiving a request. If you have not responded in 3 days, = the review will be reassigned. If you don't respond/refuse 3 reviews over a= 6 month period, we will suggest that you not be on the Directorate. If you are assigned a document which may not be exactly your expertise that= 's ok. It's very important the document is "readable". That's where we ofte= n get hung up during IESG review. If on vacation or will be without email, just let the Coordinators know and= /or use away-from-email auto-responder. Thanks to everyone for your time and support! Deborah --_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C85286FDAAMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
We’ve added a third Coordinator, Xian Zhang. Welcome Xian!
 
Your reviews have been really helpful for improving our documents and = we want to expand to do more of the Routing Area documents before submittin= g to the IESG. We also may ask your help on drafts from other Areas that ma= y have routing implications. To better utilize everyone, we’re going to move to a different assignmen= t model for reviews. We’re going to do as in other Areas, we’re= going to use a round-robin model. The other Areas use a tool for the assig= nment, our Coordinators will let you know how they will do it.
 
To ensure we have timely reviews, it will be really important that you= respond quickly when receiving a request. If you have not responded in 3 d= ays, the review will be reassigned. If you don’t respond/refuse 3 rev= iews over a 6 month period, we will suggest that you not be on the Directorate.
 
If you are assigned a document which may not be exactly your expertise= that’s ok. It’s very important the document is “readable= ”. That’s where we often get hung up during IESG review.
 
If on vacation or will be without email, just let the Coordinators kno= w and/or use away-from-email auto-responder.
 
Thanks to everyone for your time and support!
Deborah
 
 --_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C85286FDAAMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 11:38:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1439112D564; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.739 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bC2WNhiTsLPo; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E604212D5C2; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.178.123; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:37:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000001d190fc$83ae94b0$8b0bbe10$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01D190DA.FC9E7B50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGLEBzZGSNVU8m7W1I3TnQklK8l8qAL2J3w Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: rtg-ads@ietf.org, 'Jonathan Hardwick' , "'Zhangxian \(Xian\)'" , 'Jon Hudson' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Area Directorate updates X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:38:22 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D190DA.FC9E7B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xian: Welcome. We appreciate your help. Sue From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 11:01 AM To: rtg-dir@ietf.org Cc: (rtg-ads@ietf.org); Jonathan Hardwick (Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com); Zhangxian (Xian); Jon Hudson (jon.hudson@gmail.com) Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Area Directorate updates Hi, We've added a third Coordinator, Xian Zhang. Welcome Xian! Your reviews have been really helpful for improving our documents and we want to expand to do more of the Routing Area documents before submitting to the IESG. We also may ask your help on drafts from other Areas that may have routing implications. To better utilize everyone, we're going to move to a different assignment model for reviews. We're going to do as in other Areas, we're going to use a round-robin model. The other Areas use a tool for the assignment, our Coordinators will let you know how they will do it. To ensure we have timely reviews, it will be really important that you respond quickly when receiving a request. If you have not responded in 3 days, the review will be reassigned. If you don't respond/refuse 3 reviews over a 6 month period, we will suggest that you not be on the Directorate. If you are assigned a document which may not be exactly your expertise that's ok. It's very important the document is "readable". That's where we often get hung up during IESG review. If on vacation or will be without email, just let the Coordinators know and/or use away-from-email auto-responder. Thanks to everyone for your time and support! Deborah ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D190DA.FC9E7B50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Xian:

 

Welcome.  We appreciate your help.

 

Sue

 

From:= = rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BRUNGARD, = DEBORAH A
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 11:01 = AM
To: rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: <rtg-ads@ietf.org> = (rtg-ads@ietf.org); Jonathan Hardwick = (Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com); Zhangxian (Xian); Jon Hudson = (jon.hudson@gmail.com)
Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Area = Directorate updates

 

Hi,

 =

We’ve= added a third Coordinator, Xian Zhang. Welcome = Xian!

 =

Your = reviews have been really helpful for improving our documents and we want = to expand to do more of the Routing Area documents before submitting to = the IESG. We also may ask your help on drafts from other Areas that may = have routing implications. To better utilize everyone, we’re going = to move to a different assignment model for reviews. We’re going = to do as in other Areas, we’re going to use a round-robin model. = The other Areas use a tool for the assignment, our Coordinators will let = you know how they will do it.

 =

To ensure = we have timely reviews, it will be really important that you respond = quickly when receiving a request. If you have not responded in 3 days, = the review will be reassigned. If you don’t respond/refuse 3 = reviews over a 6 month period, we will suggest that you not be on the = Directorate.

 =

If you are = assigned a document which may not be exactly your expertise that’s = ok. It’s very important the document is “readable”. = That’s where we often get hung up during IESG = review.

 =

If on = vacation or will be without email, just let the Coordinators know and/or = use away-from-email auto-responder.

 =

Thanks to = everyone for your time and support!

Deborah

 =

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D190DA.FC9E7B50-- From nobody Wed Apr 13 13:47:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3320412E516; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CZSC-BumzuAw; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A58012E515; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573C21C0346; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:47:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1460580452; bh=yFhSTxCQFf+1llxpYORygXKDfbNMOg1v/KrknjtwFfk=; h=To:Cc:From:Subject:Date:From; b=ftHb1dilZNEnUk3bj2nHOKWtIdVh9PzeLwYzgiDZZgmLfioGqNosAWN+EtJArVirK n60POsPeX6crNdhOzW8r4umPawsdIHpDJ5hNVCbTbmh03Wl+QlQrn0ROdhgFYtOwVq 68TK8GCmv8/EbjyLTAK/zrDYP9KFcsiN+tTRQOkA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A580540435; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) To: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 16:47:25 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , trill@ietf.org, draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:47:37 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​ http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt Reviewer: Joel Halpern Review Date: 13-April-2016 IETF LC End Date: N/A Intended Status: Proposed Standard Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvable. I have tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve each of them. I would like to see the minor issues discussed and preferably addressed. Major Issues: In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this "going down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the timeout condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. In section 2.3.2, The descriptions for event 3 and 5 are identical. I believe from the state transitions that condition 3 is supposed to reflect the server NOT having complete data when the Activate condition is met. In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a Query. There are type indications as to what the type of the frame is. I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the full received Ethernet Frame, no matter what the type is. But it does not say that. So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I should send is the ARP message, and for ND, the ND message, etc. I believe the text needs to be clarified. If my guess is correct that the full Ethernet Frame is to be send in all cases, then explanatory text as to why the various type codes exist would seem helpful, since the received frame contains enough information to support decoding. Minor Issues: In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this as being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would however expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as something in the system is quite confused. Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that reliance on information completeness does mean that there are windows when new entities join the space represented by particular TRILL data label during which packets for that destination may be dropped, due to clients not yet having received the updated information? I believe this window is small, and it is quite reasonable to also note that in such text. Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the RBRidge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not repeat the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH simpler if the text noted that the RBRidge Channel protocol requires that there be a maintained connection between the client and the server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that connection. In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expect to see text about and to whom the Pull server will flood the received request. Instead, the text appears to say that it is teh response that will be flooded. More importantly, the descriptive text talks about sending the response, which would normally be a description of sending the response to the requestor, not sending it to someone else. In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a "flood" request will result in sending an underlying paket unicast to the destination. This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to confuse implementors. Maybe the flag should be called the Forward flag, with a note in the definition that it nromally causes the response to be sent to multiple parties, but in the case of a raw MAC frame, results in the packet being forwarded to the destination or flooded, as the server can manage? In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, in the text on method one in which the servers keep minimal state, it would seem that a large health warning is needed, as this method will cause all clients to discard all positive data whenever any positive data at the server changes (even if no client is using the modified data.) This makes a flapping end station an attack on the cache of all clients! It strikes me that the working group could help get robust deployment by making method 3 (tracking what you told clients) a SHOULD. (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do work.) Editorial Issues / Nits : From nobody Wed Apr 13 15:53:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00F312DD59; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.738 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x9wTWzs27uZ0; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA6DA12DA7A; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:53:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=74.43.47.77; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" , References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:53:42 -0400 Message-ID: <02c401d195d7$550d7e70$ff287b50$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQLt0ar96cOf013H3k5feyl+BDKWp51QCxpQ Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, trill@ietf.org, draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 22:53:50 -0000 Joel:=20 Thank you for the review of this document. As co-chair, I will work = with the authors to try to address this issue.=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 4:47 PM To: rtg-ads@ietf.org Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org; = trill@ietf.org Subject: RtgDir review of = draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt Reviewer: Joel Halpern Review Date: 13-April-2016 IETF LC End Date: N/A Intended Status: Proposed Standard Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and recommend = that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvable. I have = tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve each of them. I would like to see the minor issues discussed and preferably = addressed. Major Issues: In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 for push servers, = it appears that if the event indicating that the server is being shut = down occurs while the server is already Going Stand-By or Uncompleting, = the transitions indicate that this "going down" event will be lost. A = strict reading of this would seem to mean that the "go Down" event would = need to recur after the timeout condition. This would seem to be best = addressed by a new state "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move = to down state. In section 2.3.2, The descriptions for event 3 and 5 are identical. I = believe from the state transitions that condition 3 is supposed to = reflect the server NOT having complete data when the Activate condition = is met. In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a = Query. There are type indications as to what the type of the frame is.=20 I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the full = received Ethernet Frame, no matter what the type is. But it does not = say that. So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I should send = is the ARP message, and for ND, the ND message, etc. I believe the text = needs to be clarified. If my guess is correct that the full Ethernet = Frame is to be send in all cases, then explanatory text as to why the = various type codes exist would seem helpful, since the received frame = contains enough information to support decoding. Minor Issues: In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push servers, = there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was Down but is now = Up." The state transition diagram describes this as being a valid event = that does not change the servers state if the server is in any state = other than "Down." In one sense, this is reasonable, saying that such an = event is harmless. I would however expect some sort of logging or = administrative notification, as something in the system is quite = confused. Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that reliance on = information completeness does mean that there are windows when new = entities join the space represented by particular TRILL data label = during which packets for that destination may be dropped, due to clients = not yet having received the updated information? I believe this window = is small, and it is quite reasonable to also note that in such text. Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information = maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must = maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the = RBRidge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not repeat the = entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH simpler = if the text noted that the RBRidge Channel protocol requires that there = be a maintained connection between the client and the server, and that = these mechanisms leverage the presence of that connection. In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expect to see = text about and to whom the Pull server will flood the received request.=20 Instead, the text appears to say that it is teh response that will be = flooded. More importantly, the descriptive text talks about sending the = response, which would normally be a description of sending the response = to the requestor, not sending it to someone else. In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a "flood"=20 request will result in sending an underlying paket unicast to the = destination. This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to = confuse implementors. Maybe the flag should be called the Forward flag, = with a note in the definition that it nromally causes the response to be = sent to multiple parties, but in the case of a raw MAC frame, results in = the packet being forwarded to the destination or flooded, as the server = can manage? In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, in the text = on method one in which the servers keep minimal state, it would seem = that a large health warning is needed, as this method will cause all = clients to discard all positive data whenever any positive data at the = server changes (even if no client is using the modified data.) This = makes a flapping end station an attack on the cache of all clients! It strikes me that the working group could help get robust = deployment by making method 3 (tracking what you told clients) a SHOULD. = (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do work.) Editorial Issues / Nits : From nobody Wed Apr 13 18:35:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0370E12DE7C; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id psgCFb6WODIr; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F96412DA3C; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id s79so80732416oie.1; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=7N+KkVzkY9nxDKdBLICYpai7fEzodohK1LSFphsiEA4=; b=M+pIh5nuDDfR5fLhSPnrFJSJSn/UkUeSKKmVdCgJl1AsRE8dtN5nfV/lRuaw3pWv1r SuIvKZ/5eGC37LSxpZVmvS5FTivCvpXzBSXXXYmpdMblcM91VfdR/FdQw1DeNZdbcu/6 cjpvsBIW9BrltfGupgArtGnR7/+3mWnzaeTswZcJYoQXy+UsyYaFpyyJkQEoOpnq4Nq3 jb+pEYCG7rf82JWxJWCV7Z5B6NgQa73oZfEQQ8PnolpAWAoN8FKZ7/eHBrdXpC0BdX59 9cPlcYsy7xkcECMbKtvNAuiBfClBRH415tcMOerC4h8pOHRoe7248On4hhleSbx7G3JN FdQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=7N+KkVzkY9nxDKdBLICYpai7fEzodohK1LSFphsiEA4=; b=K/XYngApJ7iAbyIusybjbGgWnKoRJQH+fWhc6HN44JHQkF+BQqFA8dau/GE7mYRzlm Zjsmwtq3IdD1ZMOhlzW93MKO1nnrHf1TfjS9d+v5zNZBvvgq3oMIOTZZ3QhO8wpP7F10 PeCQhvI8rWKCwP4e6PnRnGucBQwSEWj4tN+jBcG1gOUYsrdBxS7NgoG0l99WBO7uZIYC 7ltqu8ueN8YVsoOTVsXijQutvFjwEKdZQMjtEA1ecIble5fzfswFXQEEqt7f/H6vxK8w 2M0ZgQkZbvpJDws7Zt8MVS0fZr+GFK4bGH8KtczQPiue6+h2Pz9LS9RzOj+geRhUAJJr /5DA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWs3I3vKuamYLboN1xW1x0Ia0Te0UzkOl0m6YO/bzJYIS7/ORmsjxzJoqupmz6qZDarxnnnW2a1iLg4DQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.172.201 with SMTP id v192mr5638435oie.29.1460597718419; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:35:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <02c401d195d7$550d7e70$ff287b50$@ndzh.com> References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> <02c401d195d7$550d7e70$ff287b50$@ndzh.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 21:35:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ced742a926b053067e8a9 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , trill@ietf.org, draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 01:35:22 -0000 --001a113ced742a926b053067e8a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joel, Thank you very much for your review! Alia On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Susan Hares wrote: > Joel: > > Thank you for the review of this document. As co-chair, I will work with > the authors to try to address this issue. > > Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 4:47 PM > To: rtg-ads@ietf.org > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org > Subject: RtgDir review of > draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, plea= se > see =E2=80=8B http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt > Reviewer: Joel Halpern > Review Date: 13-April-2016 > IETF LC End Date: N/A > Intended Status: Proposed Standard > > Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and recommend > that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. > I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvable. I have > tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve each of them. > I would like to see the minor issues discussed and preferably > addressed. > > Major Issues: > In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 for push servers, > it appears that if the event indicating that the server is being shut dow= n > occurs while the server is already Going Stand-By or Uncompleting, the > transitions indicate that this "going down" event will be lost. A strict > reading of this would seem to mean that the "go Down" event would need to > recur after the timeout condition. This would seem to be best addressed = by > a new state "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. > > In section 2.3.2, The descriptions for event 3 and 5 are identical. I > believe from the state transitions that condition 3 is supposed to reflec= t > the server NOT having complete data when the Activate condition is met. > > In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a > Query. There are type indications as to what the type of the frame is. > I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the full > received Ethernet Frame, no matter what the type is. But it does not say > that. So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I should send is the > ARP message, and for ND, the ND message, etc. I believe the text needs t= o > be clarified. If my guess is correct that the full Ethernet Frame is to = be > send in all cases, then explanatory text as to why the various type codes > exist would seem helpful, since the received frame contains enough > information to support decoding. > > > > Minor Issues: > In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push servers, > there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was Down but is now > Up." The state transition diagram describes this as being a valid event > that does not change the servers state if the server is in any state othe= r > than "Down." In one sense, this is reasonable, saying that such an event = is > harmless. I would however expect some sort of logging or administrative > notification, as something in the system is quite confused. > > Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that reliance on > information completeness does mean that there are windows when new entiti= es > join the space represented by particular TRILL data label during which > packets for that destination may be dropped, due to clients not yet havin= g > received the updated information? I believe this window is small, and it > is quite reasonable to also note that in such text. > > Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information maintenance > in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must maintain a > connection. Presumably, this is required already by the RBRidge Channel > protocol, and I understand that we should not repeat the entire protocol > here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH simpler if the text noted > that the RBRidge Channel protocol requires that there be a maintained > connection between the client and the server, and that these mechanisms > leverage the presence of that connection. > > In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expect to see tex= t > about and to whom the Pull server will flood the received request. > Instead, the text appears to say that it is teh response that will be > flooded. More importantly, the descriptive text talks about sending the > response, which would normally be a description of sending the response t= o > the requestor, not sending it to someone else. > In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a "flood" > request will result in sending an underlying paket unicast to the > destination. This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to confus= e > implementors. Maybe the flag should be called the Forward flag, with a > note in the definition that it nromally causes the response to be sent to > multiple parties, but in the case of a raw MAC frame, results in the pack= et > being forwarded to the destination or flooded, as the server can manage? > > In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, in the text o= n > method one in which the servers keep minimal state, it would seem that a > large health warning is needed, as this method will cause all clients to > discard all positive data whenever any positive data at the server change= s > (even if no client is using the modified data.) This makes a flapping en= d > station an attack on the cache of all clients! > It strikes me that the working group could help get robust deploymen= t > by making method 3 (tracking what you told clients) a SHOULD. > (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do work.) > > Editorial Issues / Nits : > > > > --001a113ced742a926b053067e8a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joel,

Thank you very much for your revi= ew! =C2=A0=C2=A0

Alia

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM, S= usan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
Joel:

Thank you for the review of this document.=C2=A0 As co-chair, I will work w= ith the authors to try to address this issue.

Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@jo= elhalpern.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 4:47 PM
To: rtg-ads@ietf.org
Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-= trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org
Subject: RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.t= xt

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related draf= ts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on sp= ecial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Ro= uting ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see = =E2=80=8B http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/tr= ac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt
Reviewer: Joel Halpern
Review Date: 13-April-2016
IETF LC End Date: N/A
Intended Status: Proposed Standard

Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that= the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvabl= e.=C2=A0 I have tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve ea= ch of them.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would like to see the minor issues discussed and pref= erably addressed.

Major Issues:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 for p= ush servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the server is bei= ng shut down occurs while the server is already Going Stand-By or Uncomplet= ing, the transitions indicate that this "going down" event will b= e lost.=C2=A0 A strict reading of this would seem to mean that the "go= Down" event would need to recur after the timeout condition.=C2=A0 Th= is would seem to be best addressed by a new state "Going-Down" wh= ose timeout behavior is to move to down state.

In section 2.3.2, The descriptions for event 3 and 5 are identical.=C2=A0 I= believe from the state transitions that condition 3 is supposed to reflect= the server NOT having complete data when the Activate condition is met.
In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a Query.= =C2=A0 There are type indications as to what the type of the frame is.
=C2=A0 I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the full= received Ethernet Frame, no matter what the type is.=C2=A0 But it does not= say that.=C2=A0 So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I should sen= d is the ARP message, and for ND, the ND message, etc.=C2=A0 I believe the = text needs to be clarified.=C2=A0 If my guess is correct that the full Ethe= rnet Frame is to be send in all cases, then explanatory text as to why the = various type codes exist would seem helpful, since the received frame conta= ins enough information to support decoding.



Minor Issues:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for p= ush servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was = Down but is now Up."=C2=A0 The state transition diagram describes this= as being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the serve= r is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is reason= able, saying that such an event is harmless.=C2=A0 I would however expect s= ome sort of logging or administrative notification, as something in the sys= tem is quite confused.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that r= eliance on information completeness does mean that there are windows when n= ew entities join the space represented by particular TRILL data label durin= g which packets for that destination may be dropped, due to clients not yet= having received the updated information?=C2=A0 I believe this window is sm= all, and it is quite reasonable to also note that in such text.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the informatio= n maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must mainta= in a connection.=C2=A0 Presumably, this is required already by the RBRidge = Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not repeat the entire pro= tocol here.=C2=A0 It would seem to make readers life MUCH simpler if the te= xt noted that the RBRidge Channel protocol requires that there be a maintai= ned connection between the client and the server, and that these mechanisms= leverage the presence of that connection.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expe= ct to see text about and to whom the Pull server will flood the received re= quest.
=C2=A0 Instead, the text appears to say that it is teh response that will b= e flooded.=C2=A0 More importantly, the descriptive text talks about sending= the response, which would normally be a description of sending the respons= e to the requestor, not sending it to someone else.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a &q= uot;flood"
request will result in sending an underlying paket unicast to the destinati= on.=C2=A0 This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to confuse impl= ementors.=C2=A0 Maybe the flag should be called the Forward flag, with a no= te in the definition that it nromally causes the response to be sent to mul= tiple parties, but in the case of a raw MAC frame, results in the packet be= ing forwarded to the destination or flooded, as the server can manage?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, = in the text on method one in which the servers keep minimal state, it would= seem that a large health warning is needed, as this method will cause all = clients to discard all positive data whenever any positive data at the serv= er changes (even if no client is using the modified data.)=C2=A0 This makes= a flapping end station an attack on the cache of all clients!
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It strikes me that the working group could help get rob= ust deployment by making method 3 (tracking what you told clients) a SHOULD= .
=C2=A0 (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do work.)

Editorial Issues / Nits :




--001a113ced742a926b053067e8a9-- From nobody Fri Apr 15 08:23:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB1312DDDB; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UBMg7gib1Ven; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A5BA12DF96; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x230.google.com with SMTP id s79so127184827oie.1; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XW+CZWyx/fFE6Xm+yOqrOGpr5mv12//meK/r3Z6uuYM=; b=cBeO8IJoDAb/HGhjiiPqrgc9FxfRA4xfNyhbxF3vocIpHSc5q5jMfabTeWRQsuB/XB HnXDuScFbIwurMOagdF8FvoNFqMnx9gYuydRP24oYKwxgFB+/t7PfUJ85oCF4NEq9Yjx 9rR8ftnZ0aWwGHm1QBvPIa7mCQui2t4fpPhCcPsMFVMycUgLtUAmW1TZkOL/SbjM01J1 lJyQexm0uhEFaRUoZ0hfHaFF789QZMl3blxwquzXCuYMz5K9l/6vtPb7NhOTra65Q0nJ VSAqaafAlcOuiERn12ihTU1i39bqauhFZhuAkEs3rPJy8y3A2nNcHrSGplIPa/tlJfP4 GRag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XW+CZWyx/fFE6Xm+yOqrOGpr5mv12//meK/r3Z6uuYM=; b=S5wY9tZRu5ZAnbVHyq0bDbMNDX5Jl5VsAZg5h8/6qgYR8GHwnxvurDK8MjBZbKTptN kOQoWUqASj3urlAvw4GXpQQuqgm9Kwev3O4TbIa3PDpHOf2cD/7RG0FAmWagBvP6dzkY w6ioNcx4H45YB/kPc92JoV3nabejU0VXIeOYkPx3GTElFs4/18CacvLdvqU2nfRm5j8c M5xIYY/+LwVNpVBQze39AzzdF1YaFsakthZ1q9eucvH7c0rXMSI33WBOaV7zI/fMZWuR cGv0oNuOdhJhSup4sggQR5VXvwBV3FdiD2fcd/iIFaRMF1RuFlJpRvz/2FxzAEjKM0t5 e2Zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXVQpffFfcUsiJ3YeUO1t0BDsBZliQRsXvqHy7kK41ukKDWr1BDpbQezvOLF3z6zR6gwlBf5eMBq9zQMg== X-Received: by 10.157.2.69 with SMTP id 63mr11237504otb.170.1460733811655; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:23:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:23:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c114d24f48ca00530879739 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:23:38 -0000 --94eb2c114d24f48ca00530879739 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joel Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See below On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review > is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information > about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use > of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them > along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and > strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt > Reviewer: Joel Halpern > Review Date: 13-April-2016 > IETF LC End Date: N/A > Intended Status: Proposed Standard > > Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and > recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the > authors. > > I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvable. I > have tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve > each of them. Thanks. > I would like to see the minor issues discussed and preferably > addressed. > > Major Issues: > In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 > for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the > server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going > Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this "going > down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to > mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the timeout > condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state > "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. I understand your point but "going down" and the like are called "events or conditions" in this draft, not just events. The problem with adding a single "Going-Down" state is that transition to that state would lose the information as to whether or not the Push Directory had been advertising that it was pushing complete information or not. The reason to remember this is that you would want to behave a differently if the "going down" condition was revoked before it completed. This information could be preserved in a Boolean pseudo variable but the current style of state machine in this draft avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the relevant push directory's state into the state machine state. Thus, I can see three possible responses to your comment: 1) Change wording to emphasize that these "events or conditions" can be conditions that cause a state transition some substantial time after they become true. 2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete; (2) going down - was incomplete. 3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which can be set and testing as part of the state machinery. Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adopting either options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I would prefer to avoid them. > In section 2.3.2, the descriptions for event 3 and 5 are identical. > I believe from the state transitions that condition 3 is supposed to > reflect the server NOT having complete data when the Activate > condition is met. You are correct. Thanks for spotting this somewhat glaring error in the event descriptions. > In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a > Query. There are type indications as to what the type of the frame > is. I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the > full received Ethernet Frame, no matter what the type is. But it > does not say that. So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I > should send is the ARP message, and for ND, the ND message, etc. I > believe the text needs to be clarified. If my guess is correct that > the full Ethernet Frame is to be send in all cases, then explanatory > text as to why the various type codes exist would seem helpful, > since the received frame contains enough information to support > decoding. Good point that this needs to say that the full Ethernet Frame (less the FCS) is to be included. QTYPEs 2, 3, and 4 for ARP, ND, and RARP could be combined. QTYPE 5 for an unknown unicast destination MAC address is really a different service. > Minor Issues: > In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push > servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was > Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this as > being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the > server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is > reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would however > expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as > something in the system is quite confused. Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a matter of state machine style. Note that the "event" is described as a condition, so from that point of view, it is true anytime the state is other than Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly an event, you are left with the question of what to put at the intersection of a state and event in the table when it is impossible for that event to occur in that state. Some people note this with an "N/A" (not applicable) entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such as in RFC 7177 use "N/A" so it would probably be simplest to change to that for consistency. > Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that reliance > on information completeness does mean that there are windows when > new entities join the space represented by particular TRILL data > label during which packets for that destination may be dropped, due > to clients not yet having received the updated information? I > believe this window is small, and it is quite reasonable to also > note that in such text. Yes, something like that would be a good addition to Section 2.4. It depends a bit on how the Push Directory is being managed. It may be pushing data provided by orchestration. In any case, there are always finite delays and for a particular ingress TRILL switch and an end station being connected to some other TRILL switch, the ingress could learn reachability for the end station either a bit before or after it is actually reachable so traffic intended for the end station could, for example, be dropped during a brief window of time when it should be forwarded. > Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information > maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must > maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the > RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not repeat > the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH > simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Channel protocol requires > that there be a maintained connection between the client and the > server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that > connection. The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a datagram protocol rather than a connection protocol. So there is no guaranteed continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection would only be lost if the network partitions since RBridge Channel messages look like data packets to any transit RBridges and will get forwarded as long as there is any route. Network partition is immediately visible in the link state database to the RBridges at both ends of an RBridge Channel exchange. Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no longer reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets would no longer get through), then all pull responses from that Pull Directory MUST be discarded since cache consistency update messages can't get through. Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added to Section 3.3. > In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expect to see > text about and to whom the Pull server will flood the received > request. Instead, the text appears to say that it is the response > that will be flooded. More importantly, the descriptive text talks > about sending the response, which would normally be a description of > sending the response to the requestor, not sending it to someone > else. If an ingress RBridge receives one of these broadcast/multicast requests (ARP, etc.) and wants it flooded, they just do the normal encapsulation as a TRILL data packet and it will be flooded (within the VLAN or FGL). It is only if the ingress RBridge wants the directory to answer the request that it would package it into an RBridge Channel message and unicast it to a directory. As to whom a response synthesized by the directory should be sent, it seems like the safest thing is to send it as the response would normally be sent by an end station responder. So, if an ARP response would be broadcast (within a VLAN or the like), then I don't see what is wrong about the directory flooding it. > In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a "flood" > request will result in sending an underlying packet unicast to the > destination. This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to > confuse implementers. Maybe the flag should be called the Forward > flag, with a note in the definition that it normally causes the > response to be sent to multiple parties, but in the case of a raw > MAC frame, results in the packet being forwarded to the destination > or flooded, as the server can manage? I don't have any particular problem with changing the FL flood flag to an FR forward flag or whatever, but I'm not sure what difference it would make to behavior. If you want the failure of the directory to be able to answer the query to be that the query (ARP request or whatever) to be sent pretty much as if it had never been packaged into an RBridge Channel message and sent to the directory, then you set this flag. When the flag is set and the directory can't answer the query, it sends it as a TRILL Data packet. If the original frame was broadcast or multicast, as is usually the case, then the directory server "floods" it (with the frames VLAN or FGL). The same is true if the request was of the "unknown destination unicast MAC" type -- if the directory does not know the edge RBridge from which that MAC is reachable and the FL flag is set, it floods it even though in this case the Inner.MacDA is a unicast address. In the unknown destination MAC case where the directory does know the reachability of that MAC, then the frame is decapsulated from the RBridge Channel and then encapsulated as a TRILL Data packet and sent to the edge RBridge from which that MAC is reachable. In this case, the FL flag has no effect since it only comes into play if the directory does not have the required information. I=E2=80=99m fine with adding some clarifying text on all this. > In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, in the > text on method one in which the servers keep minimal state, it would > seem that a large health warning is needed, as this method will > cause all clients to discard all positive data whenever any positive > data at the server changes (even if no client is using the modified > data.) This makes a flapping end station an attack on the cache of > all clients! That would be true if the directory data comes from data plane learning but not so much if it is from an orchestration system in a Data Center. Adding some additional efficiency warning(s) is reasonable. > It strikes me that the working group could help get robust > deployment by making method 3 (tracking what you told clients) a > SHOULD. (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do > work.) That sounds reasonable. We can check with the WG. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com --94eb2c114d24f48ca00530879739 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Joel

=C2=A0

Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See be= low

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>

wrote:

> Hello,

>=C2=A0

> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this

> draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review = all routing or

> routing-related drafts as they pass through IET= F last call and IESG

> review, and sometimes on special request. The p= urpose of the review

> is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. Fo= r more information

> about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2= =80=8B

> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir<= /p>

>

> Although these comments are primarily for the u= se

> of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you = could consider them

> along with any other IETF Last Call comments th= at you receive, and

> strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.

>

> Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt

> Reviewer: Joel Halpern

> Review Date: 13-April-2016

> IETF LC End Date: N/A

> Intended Status: Proposed Standard

>=C2=A0

> Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and

> recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these is= sues further with the

> authors.

>=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I do believe that the major issues are easily resolvable.=C2=A0 I

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 have tried to provide my best guess as to text how to resolve

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 each of them.

=C2=A0

Thanks.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would like to see the minor issues discussed and preferably

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 addressed.=C2=A0

>

> Major Issues:

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3

> for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the

> server is being shut down occurs while the serv= er is already Going

> Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indic= ate that this "going

> down" event will be lost.=C2=A0 A strict r= eading of this would seem to

> mean that the "go Down" event would n= eed to recur after the timeout

> condition.=C2=A0 This would seem to be best addressed by a new state

> "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior i= s to move to down state.

=C2=A0

I understand your point but "going down" a= nd the like are called

"events or conditions" in this draft, not = just events.

=C2=A0

The problem with adding a single "Going-Down&qu= ot; state is that transition

to that state would lose the information as to wheth= er or not the Push

Directory had been advertising that it was pushing c= omplete

information or not. The reason to remember this is t= hat you would want

to behave a differently if the "going down"= ; condition was revoked

before it completed.=C2=A0 This information could be preserved in a Boolean

pseudo variable but the current style of state machi= ne in this draft

avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the = relevant push

directory's state into the state machine state. = Thus, I can see three

possible responses to your comment:

=C2=A0

1) Change wording to emphasize that these "even= ts or conditions" can

be conditions that cause a state transition some sub= stantial time

after they become true.

=C2=A0

2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete= ; (2) going down -

was incomplete.

=C2=A0

3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which

can be set and testing as part of the state machiner= y.

=C2=A0

Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adop= ting either

options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I = would prefer to

avoid them.

=C2=A0

> In section 2.3.2, the descriptions for event 3 = and 5 are identical.

> I believe from the state transitions that condi= tion 3 is supposed to

> reflect the server NOT having complete data whe= n the Activate

> condition is met.

=C2=A0

You are correct. Thanks for spotting this somewhat g= laring error in

the event descriptions.

=C2=A0

> In section 3.2.1 there is provision for using a received frame as a

> Query.=C2=A0 There are type indications as to what the type of the frame

> is.=C2=A0 I believe that the intent is that the query always contains the

> full received Ethernet Frame, no matter what th= e type is.=C2=A0 But it

> does not say that.=C2=A0 So one could also conclude that for ARP, what I

> should send is the ARP message, and for ND, the= ND message, etc.=C2=A0 I

> believe the text needs to be clarified.=C2=A0 I= f my guess is correct that

> the full Ethernet Frame is to be send in all ca= ses, then explanatory

> text as to why the various type codes exist wou= ld seem helpful,

> since the received frame contains enough inform= ation to support

> decoding.

=C2=A0

Good point that this needs to say that the full Ethe= rnet Frame (less

the FCS) is to be included. QTYPEs 2, 3, and 4 for A= RP, ND, and RARP

could be combined. QTYPE 5 for an unknown unicast de= stination MAC

address is really a different service.

=C2=A0

> Minor Issues:

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push

> servers, there is an event (event 1) described = as "the server was

> Down but is now Up."=C2=A0 The state trans= ition diagram describes this as

> being a valid event that does not change the se= rvers state if the

> server is in any state other than "Down.&q= uot; In one sense, this is

> reasonable, saying that such an event is harmle= ss.=C2=A0 I would however

> expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as

> something in the system is quite confused.

=C2=A0

Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a m= atter of state

machine style. Note that the "event" is de= scribed as a condition, so

from that point of view, it is true anytime the stat= e is other than

Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly = an event, you are

left with the question of what to put at the interse= ction of a state

and event in the table when it is impossible for tha= t event to occur

in that state. Some people note this with an "N= /A" (not applicable)

entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such a= s in RFC 7177 use

"N/A" so it would probably be simplest to = change to that for

consistency.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Should section 2.4 include a note that indicates that reliance

> on information completeness does mean that ther= e are windows when

> new entities join the space represented by part= icular TRILL data

> label during which packets for that destination= may be dropped, due

> to clients not yet having received the updated information?=C2=A0 I

> believe this window is small, and it is quite reasonable to also

> note that in such text.

=C2=A0

Yes, something like that would be a good addition to= Section 2.4. It

depends a bit on how the Push Directory is being man= aged. It may be

pushing data provided by orchestration. In any case,= there are always

finite delays and for a particular ingress TRILL swi= tch and an end

station being connected to some other TRILL switch, = the ingress could

learn reachability for the end station either a bit = before or after it

is actually reachable so traffic intended for the en= d station could,

for example, be dropped during a brief window of tim= e when it should

be forwarded.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information

> maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clien= ts and servers must

> maintain a connection.=C2=A0 Presumably, this is required already by the

> RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that= we should not repeat

> the entire protocol here.=C2=A0 It would seem t= o make readers life MUCH

> simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Chan= nel protocol requires

> that there be a maintained connection between t= he client and the

> server, and that these mechanisms leverage the = presence of that

> connection.

=C2=A0

The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a da= tagram protocol

rather than a connection protocol. So there is no gu= aranteed

continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously

exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection w= ould only be lost

if the network partitions since RBridge Channel mess= ages look like

data packets to any transit RBridges and will get fo= rwarded as long as

there is any route.=C2=A0 Network partition is immediately visible in the

link state database to the RBridges at both ends of = an RBridge Channel

exchange.=C2=A0 Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no longer

reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets wo= uld no longer get

through), then all pull responses from that Pull Dir= ectory MUST be

discarded since cache consistency update messages ca= n't get through.

=C2=A0

Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added t= o Section 3.3.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In section 3.2.2.2 on Pull directory forwarding, I expect to see

> text about and to whom the Pull server will flo= od the received

> request.=C2=A0 Instead, the text appears to say that it is the response

> that will be flooded.=C2=A0 More importantly, the descriptive text talks

> about sending the response, which would normall= y be a description of

> sending the response to the requestor, not send= ing it to someone

> else.

=C2=A0

If an ingress RBridge receives one of these broadcast/multicast

requests (ARP, etc.) and wants it flooded, they just= do the normal

encapsulation as a TRILL data packet and it will be = flooded (within

the VLAN or FGL). It is only if the ingress RBridge = wants the directory

to answer the request that it would package it into = an RBridge Channel

message and unicast it to a directory.

=C2=A0

As to whom a response synthesized by the directory s= hould be sent, it

seems like the safest thing is to send it as the res= ponse would

normally be sent by an end station responder. So, if= an ARP response

would be broadcast (within a VLAN or the like), then= I don't see what

is wrong about the directory flooding it.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In a related confusion, it seems very strange that a "flood"

> request will result in sending an underlying pa= cket unicast to the

> destination.=C2=A0 This may be just terminology, but it seems likely to

> confuse implementers.=C2=A0 Maybe the flag should be called the Forward

> flag, with a note in the definition that it nor= mally causes the

> response to be sent to multiple parties, but in= the case of a raw

> MAC frame, results in the packet being forwarde= d to the destination

> or flooded, as the server can manage?

=C2=A0

I don't have any particular problem with changin= g the FL flood flag to

an FR forward flag or whatever, but I'm not sure= what difference it

would make to behavior. If you want the failure of t= he directory to be

able to answer the query to be that the query (ARP r= equest or

whatever) to be sent pretty much as if it had never = been packaged into

an RBridge Channel message and sent to the directory= , then you set

this flag. When the flag is set and the directory ca= n't answer the

query, it sends it as a TRILL Data packet. If the or= iginal frame was

broadcast or multicast, as is usually the case, then= the directory

server "floods" it (with the frames VLAN o= r FGL). The same is true if

the request was of the "unknown destination uni= cast MAC" type -- if

the directory does not know the edge RBridge from wh= ich that MAC is

reachable and the FL flag is set, it floods it even = though in this

case the Inner.MacDA is a unicast address.

=C2=A0

In the unknown destination MAC case where the direct= ory does know the

reachability of that MAC, then the frame is decapsul= ated from the

RBridge Channel and then encapsulated as a TRILL Dat= a packet and sent

to the edge RBridge from which that MAC is reachable= . In this case,

the FL flag has no effect since it only comes into p= lay if the

directory does not have the required information.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m fine with adding some clarifying text on= all this.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the description in section 3.3 of Cache management, in the

> text on method one in which the servers keep mi= nimal state, it would

> seem that a large health warning is needed, as = this method will

> cause all clients to discard all positive data = whenever any positive

> data at the server changes (even if no client i= s using the modified

> data.)=C2=A0 This makes a flapping end station an attack on the cache of

> all clients!

=C2=A0

That would be true if the directory data comes from = data plane

learning but not so much if it is from an orchestrat= ion system in a

Data Center. Adding some additional efficiency warni= ng(s) is

reasonable.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It strikes me that the working group could help get robust

> deployment by making method 3 (tracking what yo= u told clients) a

> SHOULD.=C2=A0 (I grant that it is not a MUST, as the other choices do

> work.)

=C2=A0

That sounds reasonable. We can check with the WG.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Donald

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=C2=A0=C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)

=C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA

=C2=A0d3e3e3@gma= il.com

=C2=A0

--94eb2c114d24f48ca00530879739-- From nobody Fri Apr 15 08:52:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D0412D9DF; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUXNif2rSkLD; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0BE312D9A3; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D252E27DC; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:52:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1460735525; bh=iK6V/+M9YffJC4eZYJfqhuVBlh1m9hotNn1OSrl94LM=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=j1f7rldtgUYled8rktTizzQA90Vfl3cjgfLNoZO6Bkt6vEZ41OX5ayBw8VkmfI5n/ 9er16879PfJeoXUegJtivEeC1xRYVKk3OMRSoScOoUmvTHFAyBu2Em33iiobRaUg0z CntXmmStu+aAHe3Jh9d1ab+iHMLdqBnsvy2jDybU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B2D61C0D95; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:52:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Donald Eastlake References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <57110E19.6050304@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:51:53 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:52:07 -0000 Thank you Donald. Points of agreement elided, some responses to try to clarify my observations. I will note that from your comments about 3.1, I believe my concerns, now moved to 3.7, are larger, as I had assumed that the magic was in some other protocol, and you now say it is not defined there. Yours, Joel On 4/15/16 11:23 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Hi Joel > > Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See below > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern > > > wrote: > ... >> Major Issues: > >> In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 > >> for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the > >> server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going > >> Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this >> "going > >> down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to > >> mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the >> timeout > >> condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state > >> "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. > > I understand your point but "going down" and the like are called > > "events or conditions" in this draft, not just events. > > The problem with adding a single "Going-Down" state is that > transition > > to that state would lose the information as to whether or not the > Push > > Directory had been advertising that it was pushing complete > > information or not. The reason to remember this is that you would > want > > to behave a differently if the "going down" condition was revoked > > before it completed. This information could be preserved in a > Boolean > > pseudo variable but the current style of state machine in this draft > > avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the relevant push > > directory's state into the state machine state. Thus, I can see > three > > possible responses to your comment: > > 1) Change wording to emphasize that these "events or conditions" can > > be conditions that cause a state transition some substantial time > > after they become true. > > 2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete; (2) going down > - > > was incomplete. > > 3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which > > can be set and testing as part of the state machinery. > > Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adopting either > > options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I would prefer to > > avoid them. > From what I have seen, trying to build a state machine with conditions rather than events is fraught with problems and tends to lead to errors in implementation. It amounts to hiding pseudo-variables inside the states, but not describing them. Thus, I would much prefer solution 2, but it is of course up to the WG. ... >> Minor Issues: > >> In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push > >> servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was > >> Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this >> as > >> being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the > >> server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is > >> reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would >> however > >> expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as > >> something in the system is quite confused. > > Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a matter of state > > machine style. Note that the "event" is described as a condition, so > > from that point of view, it is true anytime the state is other than > > Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly an event, you > are > > left with the question of what to put at the intersection of a state > > and event in the table when it is impossible for that event to occur > > in that state. Some people note this with an "N/A" (not applicable) > > entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such as in RFC 7177 > use > > "N/A" so it would probably be simplest to change to that for > > consistency. I think N/A would be good. ... >> Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information > >> maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must > >> maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the > >> RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not >> repeat > >> the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH > >> simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Channel protocol >> requires > >> that there be a maintained connection between the client and the > >> server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that > >> connection. > > The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a datagram protocol > > rather than a connection protocol. So there is no guaranteed > > continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously > > exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection would only be > lost > > if the network partitions since RBridge Channel messages look like > > data packets to any transit RBridges and will get forwarded as long > as > > there is any route. Network partition is immediately visible in the > > link state database to the RBridges at both ends of an RBridge > Channel > > exchange. Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no > longer > > reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets would no longer > get > > through), then all pull responses from that Pull Directory MUST be > > discarded since cache consistency update messages can't get through. > > Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added to Section 3.3. > I don't think a reference to 3.7 is sufficient, although it is helpful. If the protocol is a datagram protocol, and if it is important to discard data from unreachable pull servers, then I think 3.7 NEEDS to say more than just ~if you happen to magically figure out you can't reach the server, discard data it has given you.~ From the rest of the text, this is an important and unspecified protocol mechanism. ... In the flooding flag and behavior, (long text elided) I don't think there is anything wrong with the intended behavior. It is just that the very brief description of the FL flag leads the reader to an incorrect expectation. Yes, it gets sorted out, but that is not good. What I would suggest is when the flag is defined (with whatever name you choose) note that "for the qtypes 2,3,and 4, the flag indicates that the server should flood its response." ... > > Thanks, > > Donald From nobody Fri Apr 15 18:44:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8215E12D602 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=apnic.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsCTyK9f4HTk for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nx-mailgw.apnic.net (nx-mailgw.apnic.net [IPv6:2001:dd8:9:801::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A001712B023 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:44:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apnic.net; s=R2D2; h=received:received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:return-path; bh=/LkNkQOoj7qLfiJhVEDTEPalv+6IfL4l3RdPw7FMZew=; b=O8B/v6SnGihn50dXeBdFLyWH8acesISNfLFgDW5AQwHHFfUawHWkODcpwlQeZQqfoK48lcb1F5FEp rNSsXJZUKWvEtRjYmUd4cC4h9GX9ZaMVGZ3ewXhehO43pkt3IFse7D3z26lyNTpJ5DPpuLgDqhCulB qai3lqK6KOhvNjQc= Received: from NXMDA2.org.apnic.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:dd8:9:2::101:249]) by nx-mailgw.apnic.net (Halon Mail Gateway) with ESMTPS; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 11:46:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from dhcp150.potaroo.net (203.119.101.249) by NXMDA2.org.apnic.net (203.119.107.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 11:43:47 +1000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Geoff Huston In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 11:44:11 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <85F5A4D0-AE6B-4B5A-B888-0F0FF9859991@apnic.net> References: To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietg.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, trill@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 01:44:22 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see = =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization-05.txt Reviewer: Geoff Huston Review Date: 16 April 2016 IETF LC End Date: date-if-known=20 Intended Status: copy-from-I-D Summary:=20 This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits = that should be considered prior to publication. Comments: I found the draft concise and clear. It was readable and readily = understood. Major Issues: No major issues found Minor Issues: No minor issues found. Nits: Minor: section 2: =E2=80=9C...receive and save such mapping = information also.=E2=80=9D seems a bit stilted and I would say =E2=80=9Ca= lso receive and save such mapping information. section 3.1 "populate the information of sender's IP/MAC in its = ARP table=E2=80=9D. Do the authors really mean "ARP table" if the = information was learned by ND? i.e. its clear that the authors are = referring to the local IP/MAC address table, but the previous text tends = to associated ARP with IPv4 and ND with IPv6. Perhaps =E2=80=9CAARP/ND = table=E2=80=9D ?= From nobody Fri Apr 15 20:12:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D46612DD86; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QWQ-ORlRV4EK; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22b.google.com (mail-ob0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5701712DD54; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id bg3so73601529obb.1; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lB/98AmUlQe54F6LLUuxFanybL7EVUTfqRQ//s0Nh94=; b=HxiHB3OBocY/qmSVSv8tK85agCuDmC02iKxtbckXdOG8VOLa/2Qw1HtoB4+lCw+H5P u/paaYPQgwuSIDYkD74DjpMQLEzcuezVdPktT2jSn3EXfoU3u+SKGsz3qYqhNmkmGap0 +tzpCZU5pREXbixsyJNnU8wBnq6zpVP4Cb2Q+oJDwZOkXGslFMAoHj//86KA1OGqxDWx gl0NSkNtpbjwgp/bixWwqpykSIwX3vRImCMcwhsW4WQ5V/DBCwGdprTalkZU7qMuwThb HveZw86+8YmB0KD1+9yvo9L+r/voj5phMD1WOIrYOcV58Uegj1jX94ZMB+XOj2VK1G/V mx9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lB/98AmUlQe54F6LLUuxFanybL7EVUTfqRQ//s0Nh94=; b=FuctY57EkokBFimXuDYI/GbC7ECIrRrBkfm6ILnIty8gOaja0uBqx/51pfpaAj/8vV WOBj1/2T/i5CKdRNqRjKbWpCcQYUrPJERcCppTounit3pl15pmePIBbHCIjipo5n2DaZ QHJIYS3FPFQyZN8nfCjISnDaV681fZslx+c+lEAxJRINRXPKe6xKWb40a0HqTHqI8jFo 5+NkJGgl9btywwlay9BmQqwTvxTclGDtnIbLq9ieA/vuvh9sd9PVgx8nd56XOYbruRgn 6AiH8SooJwMjR2+6iNfC64OkOZ+i25yJkweIrG8eIl+KOYF7bMe2Mrywz7PbNXbxPFBK p0nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FX0C1BHPE1PUH6f/rEnMwRh4Mmq2onTs4Iy/mRqe7P1oitZ7QSYe8+lrt2zrIp0iLewP120mH63aYdVUQ== X-Received: by 10.182.103.194 with SMTP id fy2mr12018602obb.74.1460776340599; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:12:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <57110E19.6050304@joelhalpern.com> References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> <57110E19.6050304@joelhalpern.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 23:12:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 03:12:23 -0000 Hi Joel, On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Thank you Donald. Points of agreement elided, some responses to try to > clarify my observations. I will note that from your comments about 3.1, I > believe my concerns, now moved to 3.7, are larger, as I had assumed that the > magic was in some other protocol, and you now say it is not defined there. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/15/16 11:23 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> >> Hi Joel >> >> Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See below >> >> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >> > ... > >>> Major Issues: >>> In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 >>> for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the >>> server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going >>> Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this >>> "going >>> down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to >>> mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the >>> timeout >>> condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state >>> "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. >> >> I understand your point but "going down" and the like are called >> "events or conditions" in this draft, not just events. >> The problem with adding a single "Going-Down" state is that >> transition >> to that state would lose the information as to whether or not the >> Push >> Directory had been advertising that it was pushing complete >> information or not. The reason to remember this is that you would >> want >> to behave a differently if the "going down" condition was revoked >> before it completed. This information could be preserved in a >> Boolean >> pseudo variable but the current style of state machine in this draft >> avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the relevant push >> directory's state into the state machine state. Thus, I can see >> three >> possible responses to your comment: >> >> 1) Change wording to emphasize that these "events or conditions" can >> be conditions that cause a state transition some substantial time >> after they become true. >> >> 2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete; (2) going down >> - >> was incomplete. >> >> 3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which >> can be set and testing as part of the state machinery. >> >> Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adopting either >> options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I would prefer to >> avoid them. > > From what I have seen, trying to build a state machine with conditions > rather than events is fraught with problems and tends to lead to errors in > implementation. It amounts to hiding pseudo-variables inside the states, > but not describing them. > Thus, I would much prefer solution 2, but it is of course up to the WG. Well, option 2 wouldn't be too hard. Option 3 would probably involve the most change. > ... > >>> Minor Issues: >>> In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push >>> servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was >>> Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this >>> as >>> being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the >>> server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is >>> reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would >>> however >>> expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as >>> something in the system is quite confused. >> >> Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a matter of state >> machine style. Note that the "event" is described as a condition, so >> from that point of view, it is true anytime the state is other than >> Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly an event, you >> are >> left with the question of what to put at the intersection of a state >> and event in the table when it is impossible for that event to occur >> in that state. Some people note this with an "N/A" (not applicable) >> entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such as in RFC 7177 >> use >> "N/A" so it would probably be simplest to change to that for >> consistency. > > I think N/A would be good. OK. > ... > >>> Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information >>> maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must >>> maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the >>> RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not >>> repeat >>> the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH >>> simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Channel protocol >>> requires >>> that there be a maintained connection between the client and the >>> server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that >>> connection. >> >> The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a datagram protocol >> rather than a connection protocol. So there is no guaranteed >> continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously >> exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection would only be >> lost >> if the network partitions since RBridge Channel messages look like >> data packets to any transit RBridges and will get forwarded as long >> as >> there is any route. Network partition is immediately visible in the >> link state database to the RBridges at both ends of an RBridge >> Channel >> exchange. Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no >> longer >> reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets would no longer >> get >> through), then all pull responses from that Pull Directory MUST be >> discarded since cache consistency update messages can't get through. >> Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added to Section 3.3. > > I don't think a reference to 3.7 is sufficient, although it is helpful. > If the protocol is a datagram protocol, and if it is important to discard > data from unreachable pull servers, then I think 3.7 NEEDS to say more than > just ~if you happen to magically figure out you can't reach the server, > discard data it has given you.~ From the rest of the text, this is an > important and unspecified protocol mechanism. Figuring out whether/how you can reach other RBridges is a basic function of TRILL IS-IS based routing, not something "magical". Whenever their is a topology change, an RBridge MUST determine routes to all data reachable RBridges in the new topology. If there was an RBridge previously reachable but no longer reachable, as would be the case for all RBridges on the other side of a network partition, this MUST be noticed so that, for example, all MAC reachability information associated with each of the no longer reachable RBridges can be discarded. It does not seem like much of a stretch to believe that an RBridge would keep track of the Pull Directory or Directories it was using, each of which will be some other RBridge, and notice when a topology change makes any of them inaccessible. But I have no problem adding some wording to make this clearer. > ... > In the flooding flag and behavior, (long text elided) I don't think there is > anything wrong with the intended behavior. It is just that the very brief > description of the FL flag leads the reader to an incorrect expectation. > Yes, it gets sorted out, but that is not good. What I would suggest is when > the flag is defined (with whatever name you choose) note that "for the > qtypes 2,3,and 4, the flag indicates that the server should flood its > response." We can work on clarifying the wording. Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com From nobody Fri Apr 15 20:46:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FDE12E2A6; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0lv23oNAbou; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 537FC12DBFA; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135DB5E0BF8; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:46:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1460778395; bh=jD3WISf2Pcc5wFpjWpbSQm/plcDm3j96LLtUbtRtllk=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=IkiaN1zxFNz2H2ncBNLbFxjpYiSuT+vXMZjtQmsp4NjEsw8LFlXjfMt6rGmQYRRGF Swq81RwPYYVb//FG+zQH7xkbCQ7BjNFAKxA9bFrUqAb4h60DY5EB8xqqIApkE5Muvo XJsErcSzoliC1B7PYsjfiDmZzBhBUMQoOoS6rNWM= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 242DD5E0BF6; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:46:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Donald Eastlake References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> <57110E19.6050304@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5711B58E.8010506@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 23:46:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 03:46:37 -0000 If by the connectivity check to the directory server, you mean the underlying IS-IS routing reporting connectivity, then say that. While that is not actually interchangeable with real connectivity, it is perfectly reasoanble for the WG to deem it sufficient. I think it would only take a sentence or two to clarify for the reader that what is meant is apparent topological connectivity, as distinct from verified communication. Yours, Joel On 4/15/16 11:12 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Hi Joel, > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> Thank you Donald. Points of agreement elided, some responses to try to >> clarify my observations. I will note that from your comments about 3.1, I >> believe my concerns, now moved to 3.7, are larger, as I had assumed that the >> magic was in some other protocol, and you now say it is not defined there. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 4/15/16 11:23 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joel >>> >>> Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See below >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern >> wrote: >>> >> ... >> >>>> Major Issues: >>>> In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 >>>> for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the >>>> server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going >>>> Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this >>>> "going >>>> down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to >>>> mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the >>>> timeout >>>> condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state >>>> "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. >>> >>> I understand your point but "going down" and the like are called >>> "events or conditions" in this draft, not just events. >>> The problem with adding a single "Going-Down" state is that >>> transition >>> to that state would lose the information as to whether or not the >>> Push >>> Directory had been advertising that it was pushing complete >>> information or not. The reason to remember this is that you would >>> want >>> to behave a differently if the "going down" condition was revoked >>> before it completed. This information could be preserved in a >>> Boolean >>> pseudo variable but the current style of state machine in this draft >>> avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the relevant push >>> directory's state into the state machine state. Thus, I can see >>> three >>> possible responses to your comment: >>> >>> 1) Change wording to emphasize that these "events or conditions" can >>> be conditions that cause a state transition some substantial time >>> after they become true. >>> >>> 2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete; (2) going down >>> - >>> was incomplete. >>> >>> 3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which >>> can be set and testing as part of the state machinery. >>> >>> Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adopting either >>> options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I would prefer to >>> avoid them. >> >> From what I have seen, trying to build a state machine with conditions >> rather than events is fraught with problems and tends to lead to errors in >> implementation. It amounts to hiding pseudo-variables inside the states, >> but not describing them. >> Thus, I would much prefer solution 2, but it is of course up to the WG. > > Well, option 2 wouldn't be too hard. Option 3 would probably involve the most > change. > >> ... >> >>>> Minor Issues: >>>> In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push >>>> servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was >>>> Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this >>>> as >>>> being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the >>>> server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is >>>> reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would >>>> however >>>> expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as >>>> something in the system is quite confused. >>> >>> Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a matter of state >>> machine style. Note that the "event" is described as a condition, so >>> from that point of view, it is true anytime the state is other than >>> Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly an event, you >>> are >>> left with the question of what to put at the intersection of a state >>> and event in the table when it is impossible for that event to occur >>> in that state. Some people note this with an "N/A" (not applicable) >>> entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such as in RFC 7177 >>> use >>> "N/A" so it would probably be simplest to change to that for >>> consistency. >> >> I think N/A would be good. > > OK. > >> ... >> >>>> Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information >>>> maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must >>>> maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the >>>> RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not >>>> repeat >>>> the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH >>>> simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Channel protocol >>>> requires >>>> that there be a maintained connection between the client and the >>>> server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that >>>> connection. >>> >>> The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a datagram protocol >>> rather than a connection protocol. So there is no guaranteed >>> continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously >>> exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection would only be >>> lost >>> if the network partitions since RBridge Channel messages look like >>> data packets to any transit RBridges and will get forwarded as long >>> as >>> there is any route. Network partition is immediately visible in the >>> link state database to the RBridges at both ends of an RBridge >>> Channel >>> exchange. Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no >>> longer >>> reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets would no longer >>> get >>> through), then all pull responses from that Pull Directory MUST be >>> discarded since cache consistency update messages can't get through. >>> Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added to Section 3.3. >> >> I don't think a reference to 3.7 is sufficient, although it is helpful. >> If the protocol is a datagram protocol, and if it is important to discard >> data from unreachable pull servers, then I think 3.7 NEEDS to say more than >> just ~if you happen to magically figure out you can't reach the server, >> discard data it has given you.~ From the rest of the text, this is an >> important and unspecified protocol mechanism. > > Figuring out whether/how you can reach other RBridges is a basic > function of TRILL IS-IS based routing, not something "magical". > Whenever their is a topology change, an RBridge MUST determine routes > to all data reachable RBridges in the new topology. If there was an > RBridge previously reachable but no longer reachable, as would be the > case for all RBridges on the other side of a network partition, this > MUST be noticed so that, for example, all MAC reachability information > associated with each of the no longer reachable RBridges can be discarded. > It does not seem like much of a stretch to believe that an RBridge would > keep track of the Pull Directory or Directories it was using, each of > which will be some other RBridge, and notice when a topology change > makes any of them inaccessible. But I have no problem adding some > wording to make this clearer. > >> ... >> In the flooding flag and behavior, (long text elided) I don't think there is >> anything wrong with the intended behavior. It is just that the very brief >> description of the FL flag leads the reader to an incorrect expectation. >> Yes, it gets sorted out, but that is not good. What I would suggest is when >> the flag is defined (with whatever name you choose) note that "for the >> qtypes 2,3,and 4, the flag indicates that the server should flood its >> response." > > We can work on clarifying the wording. > > Thanks, > Donald > ============================= > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > From nobody Sat Apr 16 19:03:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2087212D950; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YDHpUGOxLF8U; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3844312D0BB; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x232.google.com with SMTP id j9so81772259obd.3; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s4jcW4lOCW4Q0YidEkOti2gbG3redYKPrzsldRoN598=; b=Rsy56jXlgP73AZ3tFcu402Gjl7cpFp7KlupjEOlxNiSZzo9Ryh577SnoEoTdK3Td4d J6kV9soxz3berpoU+LiDEi7avupEQClRAPE5z7p2ohjUqF+WinqvKzXWRXNaZckM39lb Oco52m2v4O0/Rw76zFL8JceGvRA2WqeAhTx7kmZKV+VCro4S8Fcvpe5XloO4bI688noO 93Ux20wXTvsT2mQnjNEEIVCdyJU22QmevGvijyoZb2ckNLmrzr4bISx5jBUnZOkrXNV4 y4sJ5gTzDwaDQ0n4u+sJi3zpgPbqAR6nIHNZlUe0MZ8fD7nvd51vS0KAz0WgdoKz68aa w47w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s4jcW4lOCW4Q0YidEkOti2gbG3redYKPrzsldRoN598=; b=VzNLpO43imUIM1BtNgp6btT8q9ggDahgf8F4CtnglLr2FDBV8oiLuL7BWmXO3vRwj4 ng4wDoPEEGllQQnLvUgw5KiFxdGkWmnEgcReFSdH6NWSBwvWMzUdQL9q+KSPteOZ00mG YFLBLIv96P/JNUr6kxfh14al2vTM//l9tYvUOQkqdfRWBmhbeuMLx0r3FW0tNLbwF5Xf NS9Lr5lbRTfGHvggu7dYtGSrQCvLyFoGoZc5uznmU+ae2On7fdDpl+/FxUmqanD2AbiV rSBgDPBdXZfgQZihsf/n+hYzPX0/5w0/zeWcWmqlKK/mlWFuHrgKf3mVgzdfmopz4CHp oDXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUXfMtPNmTzMxalxIq7Z6AGjAdOevYbNYOnrDM/nmzUgG+Tnt/6nJ7NsETLYLVGGBNNBOZcbrUzDqvezw== X-Received: by 10.60.97.38 with SMTP id dx6mr13620416oeb.5.1460858616541; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.22.250 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:03:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5711B58E.8010506@joelhalpern.com> References: <570EB05D.20802@joelhalpern.com> <57110E19.6050304@joelhalpern.com> <5711B58E.8010506@joelhalpern.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 22:03:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-trill-directory-assist-mechanisms-07.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 02:03:39 -0000 Hi Joel, On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > If by the connectivity check to the directory server, you mean the > underlying IS-IS routing reporting connectivity, then say that. OK. > While that > is not actually interchangeable with real connectivity, it is perfectly > reasoanble for the WG to deem it sufficient. I think it would only take a > sentence or two to clarify for the reader that what is meant is apparent > topological connectivity, as distinct from verified communication. The phrase usually used in TRILL (See RFC 7780) is "data reachable". Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > Yours, > Joel > > > On 4/15/16 11:12 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern >> wrote: >>> >>> Thank you Donald. Points of agreement elided, some responses to try to >>> clarify my observations. I will note that from your comments about 3.1, >>> I >>> believe my concerns, now moved to 3.7, are larger, as I had assumed that >>> the >>> magic was in some other protocol, and you now say it is not defined >>> there. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 4/15/16 11:23 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Joel >>>> >>>> Thanks for your thorough review and comments. See below >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Joel M. Halpern >>> wrote: >>>> >>> ... >>> >>>>> Major Issues: >>>>> In the state machine transitions in section 2.3.3 >>>>> for push servers, it appears that if the event indicating that the >>>>> server is being shut down occurs while the server is already Going >>>>> Stand-By or Uncompleting, the transitions indicate that this >>>>> "going >>>>> down" event will be lost. A strict reading of this would seem to >>>>> mean that the "go Down" event would need to recur after the >>>>> timeout >>>>> condition. This would seem to be best addressed by a new state >>>>> "Going-Down" whose timeout behavior is to move to down state. >>>> >>>> >>>> I understand your point but "going down" and the like are called >>>> "events or conditions" in this draft, not just events. >>>> The problem with adding a single "Going-Down" state is that >>>> transition >>>> to that state would lose the information as to whether or not the >>>> Push >>>> Directory had been advertising that it was pushing complete >>>> information or not. The reason to remember this is that you would >>>> want >>>> to behave a differently if the "going down" condition was revoked >>>> before it completed. This information could be preserved in a >>>> Boolean >>>> pseudo variable but the current style of state machine in this draft >>>> avoids such pseudo variables and encodes all of the relevant push >>>> directory's state into the state machine state. Thus, I can see >>>> three >>>> possible responses to your comment: >>>> >>>> 1) Change wording to emphasize that these "events or conditions" can >>>> be conditions that cause a state transition some substantial time >>>> after they become true. >>>> >>>> 2) Add two new states: (1) going down - was complete; (2) going down >>>> - >>>> was incomplete. >>>> >>>> 3) Change the style of state machine to admit pseudo variables which >>>> can be set and testing as part of the state machinery. >>>> >>>> Option 1 is just some minor wording changes but adopting either >>>> options 2 or 3 involves more extensive changes so I would prefer to >>>> avoid them. >>> >>> >>> From what I have seen, trying to build a state machine with conditions >>> rather than events is fraught with problems and tends to lead to errors >>> in >>> implementation. It amounts to hiding pseudo-variables inside the states, >>> but not describing them. >>> Thus, I would much prefer solution 2, but it is of course up to the WG. >> >> >> Well, option 2 wouldn't be too hard. Option 3 would probably involve the >> most >> change. >> >>> ... >>> >>>>> Minor Issues: >>>>> In section 2.3.3 describing the state transitions for push >>>>> servers, there is an event (event 1) described as "the server was >>>>> Down but is now Up." The state transition diagram describes this >>>>> as >>>>> being a valid event that does not change the servers state if the >>>>> server is in any state other than "Down." In one sense, this is >>>>> reasonable, saying that such an event is harmless. I would >>>>> however >>>>> expect some sort of logging or administrative notification, as >>>>> something in the system is quite confused. >>>> >>>> >>>> Again, I see your point but it seems to me to be a matter of state >>>> machine style. Note that the "event" is described as a condition, so >>>> from that point of view, it is true anytime the state is other than >>>> Down. On the other hand, if you view it as strictly an event, you >>>> are >>>> left with the question of what to put at the intersection of a state >>>> and event in the table when it is impossible for that event to occur >>>> in that state. Some people note this with an "N/A" (not applicable) >>>> entry. In fact, previous TRILL state diagrams such as in RFC 7177 >>>> use >>>> "N/A" so it would probably be simplest to change to that for >>>> consistency. >>> >>> >>> I think N/A would be good. >> >> >> OK. >> >>> ... >>> >>>>> Text in section 3.2.2.1 on lifetimes and the information >>>>> maintenance in section 3.3 imply that the clients and servers must >>>>> maintain a connection. Presumably, this is required already by the >>>>> RBridge Channel protocol, and I understand that we should not >>>>> repeat >>>>> the entire protocol here. It would seem to make readers life MUCH >>>>> simpler if the text noted that the RBridge Channel protocol >>>>> requires >>>>> that there be a maintained connection between the client and the >>>>> server, and that these mechanisms leverage the presence of that >>>>> connection. >>>> >>>> >>>> The basic RBridge Channel protocol [RFC7178] is a datagram protocol >>>> rather than a connection protocol. So there is no guaranteed >>>> continuity of connection between RBridges that have previously >>>> exchanged RBridge Channel messages. But connection would only be >>>> lost >>>> if the network partitions since RBridge Channel messages look like >>>> data packets to any transit RBridges and will get forwarded as long >>>> as >>>> there is any route. Network partition is immediately visible in the >>>> link state database to the RBridges at both ends of an RBridge >>>> Channel >>>> exchange. Section 3.7 provides that if a Pull Directory is no >>>> longer >>>> reachable (i.e., RBridge Channel protocol packets would no longer >>>> get >>>> through), then all pull responses from that Pull Directory MUST be >>>> discarded since cache consistency update messages can't get through. >>>> Perhaps a reference to Section 3.7 should be added to Section 3.3. >>> >>> >>> I don't think a reference to 3.7 is sufficient, although it is helpful. >>> If the protocol is a datagram protocol, and if it is important to discard >>> data from unreachable pull servers, then I think 3.7 NEEDS to say more >>> than >>> just ~if you happen to magically figure out you can't reach the server, >>> discard data it has given you.~ From the rest of the text, this is an >>> important and unspecified protocol mechanism. >> >> >> Figuring out whether/how you can reach other RBridges is a basic >> function of TRILL IS-IS based routing, not something "magical". >> Whenever their is a topology change, an RBridge MUST determine routes >> to all data reachable RBridges in the new topology. If there was an >> RBridge previously reachable but no longer reachable, as would be the >> case for all RBridges on the other side of a network partition, this >> MUST be noticed so that, for example, all MAC reachability information >> associated with each of the no longer reachable RBridges can be discarded. >> It does not seem like much of a stretch to believe that an RBridge would >> keep track of the Pull Directory or Directories it was using, each of >> which will be some other RBridge, and notice when a topology change >> makes any of them inaccessible. But I have no problem adding some >> wording to make this clearer. >> >>> ... >>> In the flooding flag and behavior, (long text elided) I don't think there >>> is >>> anything wrong with the intended behavior. It is just that the very >>> brief >>> description of the FL flag leads the reader to an incorrect expectation. >>> Yes, it gets sorted out, but that is not good. What I would suggest is >>> when >>> the flag is defined (with whatever name you choose) note that "for the >>> qtypes 2,3,and 4, the flag indicates that the server should flood its >>> response." >> >> >> We can work on clarifying the wording. >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> ============================= >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> > From nobody Sun Apr 17 19:50:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6259912D695; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D69_UoVFzmYS; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAF5612D514; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 95 are now available. Pl= ease let me know if you have any comments. https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-rtgarea Best regards Jon --_000_BY2PR0201MB1910E5FC06E37FAE73BB9606846C0BY2PR0201MB1910_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The draft minutes for the RTGAREA meeting at IETF 95= are now available.  Please let me know if you have any comments.=

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-= 95-rtgarea

 

Best regards

Jon

 

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with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EF7212EF09; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 06:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 68EA420450; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:53:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.69]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 26C011C007D; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:53:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06]) by OPEXCLILMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::bc1c:ad2f:eda3:8c3d%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:53:39 +0200 From: To: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00 Thread-Index: AdGbCY+KVpJbAa3dT8ic1wCl7AzRBA== Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:53:38 +0000 Message-ID: <18205_1461160419_571789E3_18205_2694_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1OPEXCLILM21corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic.all@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:53:49 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1OPEXCLILM21corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHNlbGVjdGVkIGFzIHRoZSBSb3V0aW5nIERpcmVjdG9yYXRl 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bD4NCg== --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1OPEXCLILM21corp_-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 10:30:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4631F12E900; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dVFbyj75A9-a; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Malis" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: rtg-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d38a0d14bda0530edf38c Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , isis-wg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag.all@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:30:45 -0000 --001a113d38a0d14bda0530edf38c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt Reviewer: Andy Malis Review Date: April 20, 2016 IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication, if the AD agrees (see below for details). Comments and minor concerns: I have no technical concerns with this draft. I have noted the two comments in the AD review of this draft, and agree with them. Given the similarity in functionality to RFC 7777 and the overlap in authorship, I expected the draft to be more or less identical to the RFC, except for the technical differences between OSPF and ISIS. However, there are parts of the RFC that are editorially better (easier to read or understand) than the equivalent text in the draft, starting with the title, Abstract, and Introduction. In particular, the Introduction in the RFC looks like the result of cleanup by the RFC Editor, but which still needs to be done in the draft. Why not take advantage of the work already done by the RFC Editor? Also, the Introduction in the draft doesn't include the usual reference to RFC 2119 terms, which is in the RFC. The Abstract in the RFC also includes more useful detail than the Abstract in the draft. As another example, these differences are also true in Section 4.1 of the draft, when compared to the mostly equivalent Section 2.2.1 of the RFC. For example, from an editorial standpoint there is a missing "The" in the first line of the section, and there are other improvements as well. I also see editorial corrections in Section 3 of the RFC when compared to Section 5 in the draft. I would recommend an editorial pass where the text is compared with the RFC, and when obvious, editorially improved to take advantage of work already done. This will make the RFC Editor's job easier. Alternatively, the AD could choose to include a note to the RFC Editor, noting the similarity and asking the RFC Editor to take advantage of the work that they already did for the RFC. However, having this done by the document editor would take advantage of the editor's knowledge of when differences between the two are deliberate. Thanks, Andy --001a113d38a0d14bda0530edf38c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

I have been selected = as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate= seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through= IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purp= ose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more inf= ormation about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://= trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

= Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-is= is-node-admin-tag-08.txt
Reviewer: Andy Malis
Review Da= te: April 20, 2016
IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016
Int= ended Status: Standards Track

Summary:
<= br>
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think s= hould be resolved before publication, if the AD agrees (see below for detai= ls).

Comments and minor concerns:

I have no technical concerns with this draft.

=
I have noted the two comments in the AD review of this draft, and agre= e with them.

Given the similarity in functionality= to RFC 7777 and the overlap in authorship, I expected the draft to be more= or less identical to the RFC, except for the technical differences between= OSPF and ISIS. However, there are parts of the RFC that are editorially be= tter (easier to read or understand) than the equivalent text in the draft, = starting with the title, Abstract, and Introduction. In particular, the Int= roduction in the RFC looks like the result of cleanup by the RFC Editor, bu= t which still needs to be done in the draft. Why not take advantage of the = work already done by the RFC Editor? Also, the Introduction in the draft do= esn't include the usual reference to RFC 2119 terms, which is in the RF= C. The Abstract in the RFC also includes more useful detail than the Abstra= ct in the draft.

As another example, these differe= nces are also true in Section 4.1 of the draft, when compared to the mostly= equivalent Section 2.2.1 of the RFC. For example, from an editorial standp= oint there is a missing "The" in the first line of the section, a= nd there are other improvements as well. I also see editorial corrections i= n Section 3 of the RFC when compared to Section 5 in the draft.
<= br>
I would recommend an editorial pass where the text is compare= d with the RFC, and when obvious, editorially improved to take advantage of= work already done. This will make the RFC Editor's job easier. Alterna= tively, the AD could choose to include a note to the RFC Editor, noting the= similarity and asking the RFC Editor to take advantage of the work that th= ey already did for the RFC. However, having this done by the document edito= r would take advantage of the editor's knowledge of when differences be= tween the two are deliberate.

Thanks,
An= dy

--001a113d38a0d14bda0530edf38c-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 12:17:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD7712E7D0; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4I80deg35Z3z; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x243.google.com (mail-pf0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B19012E7C9; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x243.google.com with SMTP id d184so5223105pfc.1; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=csAWSTrA00IU+XJzT6KQJITbpWfjeq/cH3kswkg6jdM=; b=TlExGyPjjySw4BS9AkedkVU/az+0kY4u2wI6q93QWZc5sWsAdsmKrzedZsFLYsNJlw 29mMefF8HYWcepGAryp0CTClJ5edjqGAw36DXr7g0r+4AYoyueYZExI9juwtSDXGBpH1 UaeAXqPIFWFZjQkCQWtT9vlGFo1O2DNXTiFZQbU8OTlR+RX8Ykp6rCnEeU+u/zkDXIjZ gmfoaaWeugOVEnDp9i4QQvd/cx8nq8lSOUaXv+n5RfjPDAef8f+bdPuyjVEviToYWwDZ ZYD4csHop7mCtsD1PT83lyl79rCOSie6+GtyX7mmRUYKQMG/8Al3ptmy+C2rrQZGbNyu NRGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=csAWSTrA00IU+XJzT6KQJITbpWfjeq/cH3kswkg6jdM=; b=VhyD5CDE/RuJPH60IGQspclNxNu6DRq0IyJTWVqWcAQ+wRu8KrcxD6gJNxQg9bAEf1 ramAK/meov/YN3xSaRBNpssLFV4D93em41HE4h4Gh0ZZgXmUIacLwYDz+92WgVXVszaW UDCX7MEemwzN3g1enHm1Cd4lffXG4ITRjKoVYnTyaQQWdQKdgUH053hCGvdPcaXmMUVB jdKFJft9m2Z13ZLw3g+ZPoHuGRKEgYJlEI+5aU7KkiWpvBwhMCHa6jvccKGGqw+F1URA Dujx09qLi9ttNDVsc6fSEcTgqVxR1h4JjQdA1SFrku1FUnBfPiVc4NGm9vJ84uhcDYTB DLRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWRKxlVgPYhgJR5EnmhFNl0owwt9+mTlNllYn2ndNCYJY6Jh985e+UnsYZwcXuptg== X-Received: by 10.98.7.135 with SMTP id 7mr14433669pfh.124.1461179843884; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Pushpasiss-MacBook-Pro.local ([122.166.172.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ak9sm100386581pac.13.2016.04.20.12.17.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:22 -0700 (PDT) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , rtg-ads@ietf.org References: From: Pushpasis Sarkar Message-ID: <5717D5BE.8020603@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:47:18 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , isis-wg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:17:26 -0000 Hi Andy, Thanks a lot for review. I am in agreement with all the points made below. So I will address them soon and upload the next version. Also the AD has also suggested that much of the Usecase sections is a duplicate of the same section in RFC 7777 and hence should be shortened to just list the usecases without detailing them and refering to RFC7777 instead. I will take care both sets of comments and come up with a version early next week. Thanks once again and Regards, -Pushpasis On 4/20/16 11:00 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about > the Routing Directorate, please see ​ > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, > it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other > IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt > Reviewer: Andy Malis > Review Date: April 20, 2016 > IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication, if the AD agrees (see below for details). > > Comments and minor concerns: > > I have no technical concerns with this draft. > > I have noted the two comments in the AD review of this draft, and > agree with them. > > Given the similarity in functionality to RFC 7777 and the overlap in > authorship, I expected the draft to be more or less identical to the > RFC, except for the technical differences between OSPF and ISIS. > However, there are parts of the RFC that are editorially better > (easier to read or understand) than the equivalent text in the draft, > starting with the title, Abstract, and Introduction. In particular, > the Introduction in the RFC looks like the result of cleanup by the > RFC Editor, but which still needs to be done in the draft. Why not > take advantage of the work already done by the RFC Editor? Also, the > Introduction in the draft doesn't include the usual reference to RFC > 2119 terms, which is in the RFC. The Abstract in the RFC also includes > more useful detail than the Abstract in the draft. > > As another example, these differences are also true in Section 4.1 of > the draft, when compared to the mostly equivalent Section 2.2.1 of the > RFC. For example, from an editorial standpoint there is a missing > "The" in the first line of the section, and there are other > improvements as well. I also see editorial corrections in Section 3 of > the RFC when compared to Section 5 in the draft. > > I would recommend an editorial pass where the text is compared with > the RFC, and when obvious, editorially improved to take advantage of > work already done. This will make the RFC Editor's job easier. > Alternatively, the AD could choose to include a note to the RFC > Editor, noting the similarity and asking the RFC Editor to take > advantage of the work that they already did for the RFC. However, > having this done by the document editor would take advantage of the > editor's knowledge of when differences between the two are deliberate. > > Thanks, > Andy > From nobody Thu Apr 21 00:08:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EEFA12DF50; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8kEedaWUwAq; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B24112DC4A; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CIA88338; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:08:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:08:08 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.171]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:08:02 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review of draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition-04.txt Thread-Index: AdGbnIt+qe4n2mM9TPmH6skTMoVhLQ== Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:08:02 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.102.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.57187C5A.00BA, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.171, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 317ed1a6d7a9ac88936217323668a88c Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "grow@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition.all@ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:08:17 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts= as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec= ial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Rout= ing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see htt= p://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition-04.txt Reviewer: Mach Chen Review Date: April 21, 2016 IETF LC End Date: March 28, 2016 Intended Status: Informational Summary: This document is well written and easy to read. There some minor nits that = need to be addressed before the publication. Comments: 1. There are many places in the document that uses "we", which is not the t= ypical usage for an IETF draft or RFC, a common way is to use "this documen= t" or the like.=20 2. Section 3.4 "... from the customer cone of the lateral peer.", what's the mean of the "= customer cone" here? It's better to use a more common term here.=20 3. s/ No updates to the registries are suggested by this document. /This docum= ent does not require an action from IANA. Major issues: None. Minor issues: None. Nits: Thanks, Mach From nobody Thu Apr 21 04:38:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8EF12E37D; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 04:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1pivK1BKAbfq; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 04:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F01D112E3DA; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 04:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3LBc28a030639; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:38:02 +0100 Received: from 950129200 ([213.5.92.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3LBc1oR030631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:38:01 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Stewart Bryant'" , References: <5718AFA4.4010908@gmail.com> <062501d19bc1$d3fb24e0$7bf16ea0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <062501d19bc1$d3fb24e0$7bf16ea0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:38:02 +0100 Message-ID: <063401d19bc2$43e55a00$cbb00e00$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHySV7uinDF30sOc86UhvTDbccVMAL6R9kDnzsfY0A= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22274.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--17.906-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--17.906-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: X4bcv0S75Kk4HKI/yaqRm8zWN98iBBeGQNrgRraxTQFGr8G3v23M31Dc zN/SMpBYlj9EHCczd3JnuZu7SLIewojQo/Iw2s1SQpxiLlDD9FVhBfGxmdHCguc1p9J5fpfi94m WpQQzED/h7zLZMPEJbrLJMDbAGS4OhdUss4Ved7Ovdf2B19ItZXidToq2MMwDh8BhJvgqWBkimX l7sJqs2lDsDHKCnI6VmRZvbOkh+FPYfPOPCpnfAnqlaakV3yjelWXxvHK+rV7czkKO5k4APqTUJ fxllbMPk1QAW+Nk6QAixnd3Qvh+BcME2BsoiKJMZg1i2wTmScNQCOsAlaxN76R+x6Y7WC8DMA0T vVWjWva8q5RnxSTV7eCp+Owu+eqsqdj16zO5P+SeAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8+gD2vYtOFhgqtq5 d3cxkNQP90fJP9eHt Archived-At: Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, zhang.xian@huawei.com, "'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A'" , draft-ietf-teas-interconnected-te-info-exchange@tools.ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com, jon.hudson@gmail.com Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-teas-interconnected-te-info-exchange-04 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:38:31 -0000 Re-send with correct RTG-DIR address > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] > Sent: 21 April 2016 12:35 > To: 'Stewart Bryant'; rtg-ads@ietf.org > Cc: RTG-DIR@tools.ietf.org; draft-ietf-teas-interconnected-te-info- > exchange@tools.ietf.org; teas@ietf.org; = Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com; > jon.hudson@gmail.com; zhang.xian@huawei.com; 'BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A' > Subject: RE: RtgDir review of = draft-ietf-teas-interconnected-te-info-exchange-04 >=20 > Stewart, >=20 > Many thanks for your time and kind words. >=20 > Responses in line. >=20 > Deborah, when in the process do you want to see an update? >=20 > Cheers, > Adrian >=20 > > Summary: > > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should = be > resolved > > before publication. > > > > Comments: > > This is an exceptionally well written document that will serve = community well in > > understanding this problem. > > > > The first two minor comments are in many ways optional, but I think = addressing > > them would be appreciated by those new to the subject. > > > > Major Issues: > > No major issues found. > > > > Minor Issues: > > > > In section 1.1.2 TE Metrics and TE Attributes, there appears to be = no definition > of > > either term (either by reference of by value). A definition and in = particular a > > distinction would be helpful to the reader less familiar with the = subject. >=20 > I think that you're right that some clarity could be added. The = general description > of the combination of the two terms looks fine to me, but by = presenting two > terms we do need to distinguish them and explain. I suspect that some = examples > and a little more description will do the job. Mainly we need to = characterise a TE > metric as a quantifiable value (including measurement) describing some = property > of a link or node that can be used as part of TE routing or planning, = while a TE > attribute is a wider term (i.e. including TE metric) that refers to = any property or > characteristic of a link or node that can be used as part of TE = routing or planning. >=20 > > Regarding Section 1.1.8. Abstract Node or Virtual Node. It is = unclear whether > these > > are synonyms, or if there is a distinction between them. >=20 > Hmmm. During WG last call we were asked to add 1.1.8 to give a root = for use of > these terms, although I chose to point at 3.5 and 4.2.2.1 for more = details. But I > think I can add a distinction between the very similar terms. >=20 > > Section 5.2 > > The text "(i.e., completely separate instances using different = address)" is > > incomplete. I think that you have omitted the word "spaces". >=20 > Yes. Thanks. >=20 > > Nits: > > "2.4. Requesting Connectivity > > > > " This relationship between domains can be entirely under the = control" > > > > I think that should be "The relationship" >=20 > Ack >=20 > > Section 6 the text "are arranged a set of small domains" I think = should be > > "are arranged as a set of small domains" >=20 > Ack >=20 > > Section 10.1 para 3 duplicate word "the the" >=20 > Ack From nobody Thu Apr 21 16:28:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A8212E737; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LyC-WWhDYLgc; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D2A212E147; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:27:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=49284; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461281272; x=1462490872; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=Otp58elrjjdn5w3af1SGGyjhX/kwP4Tb0wIXdInstrI=; b=LxopeO7GtdIrGtwd4U/opXhL6fV6xV0T+Q/GQ73SSAXAqQr2D8fEM5Oy jkOO5MiYKN3VWzm6yDwgiQXr3U2dS4k31Ln5kCjxhDfLIq5opPxQ4mXgX EQRFNt/6dd3Z8e8YgAbnumcNqvgugCf67DCmHdqkmxMmnBI2vcMg88qwj A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,514,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="94538315" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Apr 2016 23:27:51 +0000 Received: from [10.154.57.130] ([10.154.57.130]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3LNRpuP017698; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:27:51 GMT Message-ID: <571961F6.9040608@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:27:50 -0700 From: "Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" References: <18205_1461160419_571789E3_18205_2694_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <18205_1461160419_571789E3_18205_2694_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F8761E1@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050700020907010209010406" Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic.all@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:27:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050700020907010209010406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks a lot for the valuable comments. I will try the address the comments in the next spin Ahmed On 4/20/2016 6:53 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about > the Routing Directorate, please see ​ > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, > it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other > IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00 > Reviewer: Bruno Decraene > IETF LC End Date: “QA review” pre WG LC > Intended Status: Informational > > *Summary:* > > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication. > > *Comments:* > > - Document is interesting. Document is relatively clear but sometime > it feels like there is a little room for some reformulation/edition to > improve fluidity. In particular, the learning curve is a bit steep at > the beginning of the doc as most of the concepts are introduced in 3 > pages (pages 4-6) in the form of a list of terminology and a pseudo > code. I would find useful to have an overview section just after the > introduction, with a high level view of the solution with a limited > number of new terms. > > - The text feels like authoritative, while probably many terms are > implementation specific. A priori, I would not expect all > implementation of BGP PIC to use the same terms, and possibly not the > same data structure. May be the text could be generalized to cover > multiple implementations; or modified to describe a generalized > concept (i.e. data-structure designed to share as much data as > possible between elements, at the cost of additional indirections); or > the document could state that it describes a specific implementation > with implementations specific terminology, data structure, and > specifics. Or a combination of both (e.g. adding a section being both > generalized and describing the concept, and then the existing sections > after stating that they are specific to one implementation). > > *Minor Issues:* > > - I find figure 2 very useful to understand the data-structure. I > would move it sooner in the doc, somewhere before §2.2. (with its > subsequent text below) e.g. a new §2.2 "FIB data-structure" > > It would need to be generalized i.e. example non-specific. I could > think of: > > IP Leaf: Pathlist: IP Leaf: Pathlist: > > -------- --------- ------- -------- > > BGP NLRI ---> BGP NH1 ----> IGP IP1 (BGP NH1) ---> IGP NH1, I1 > ---> Adjacency1 > > BGP NHi --... IGP NHi, Ii --.. > > | | > > | | > > | | > > v v > > OutLabel Array: OutLabel Array: > > -------------- -------------- > > L (NLRI, NH1) L (IP1, NH1) > > L (NLRI, NHi) L (IP1, NHi) > > - Figure 1 could be enhanced with IGP-NH1, IGP-NH2, I1 and I2. > > - Example 3 does not use the same naming convention than examples 1 > and 2, this make it harder to follow for a priori no reason. e.g. VPN > labels are named VPN-L11 in examples 1 and 2, but are named > VPN-PE21(P1) in exmaple 3; transport labels are named LDP-L12 in > exmaples 1 and 2, but LASBR11(PE22) and L11 in figure 3. > > - §2.3.3 > > "The local labels of the next hops". > > - All labels are locally assigned. So what do you mean by "local" > > - "next-hop" sometimes refers to IGP/connected next-hop (a priori the > case here) and sometimes to BGP next-hop. I find it hard to follow. I > rather use a different name (e.g; connected next-hop vs BGP next-hop) > > - §3 > > "the hashing at the BGP level yields path 0 while the hashing at the > IGP level yields path 1. In that case, the packet will be sent out of > interface I1 with the label stack "LDP-L12,VPN-L21". > > Does not seem to match my understanding. For "LDP-L12,VPN-L21" I would > assume BGP used path index 1 and IGP used path index 0. > > IMHO: > > OLD: "Hence ASBR22 swaps "LASBR22(PE22)" with the LDP/SR label of > PE22, pushes the label of the next-hop towards PE22 in domain 2, and > sends the packet along the shortest path towards PE22." > > NEW: "Hence ASBR22 swaps "LASBR22(PE22)" with the LDP/SR label for > PE22 advertised by the next-hop towards PE22 in domain 2, and sends > the packet along the shortest path towards PE22." > > (in all cases "swaps" then "pushes" would increase the label stack by > 1, which is not the case.) > > §4.1 > > "the useable paths in the loadinfo" > > loadinfo is a proprietary FIB datastructure which has not been > introduced/defined. You need to either remove that term (if possible) > or define it somewhere. > > "Hence traffic restoration occurs within the time frame of IGP > convergence," > > agree. > > ..."and, for local link failure, within the timeframe of local > detection. Thus it is possible to achieve sub-50 msec convergence as > described in [10] for local link failure" > > IMO, this is restricted to specific cases. e.g. external (eBGP) link > failure, ECMP case, possibly IP FRR. So possibly > > OLD: for local link failure, within the timeframe of local detection. > Thus it is possible to achieve sub-50 msec convergence as described in > [10] for local link failure > > NEW: for local link failure, assuming a backup path has been > precomputed, within the timeframe of local detection (e.g. 50ms). > Example of solutions precomputing a backup path are IP FRR [LFA], > [RLFA], [MRT], [TI-LFA] or eBGP path having a backup path [10]. > > §4 > > I would find useful to indicate, for each type of failure, the number > of data-structure that need to be updated. > > --- > > §4.2.2 > > "To avoid loops, ePE2 MUST treat any core facing path as a backup > > path, otherwise ePE2 may redirect traffic arriving from the core > > back to ePE1 causing a loop." > > Looks a bit under-described to me. Could you please elaborate a bit? > In particular: > > - if 2 PE (PE1, PE2) are connected in U to 2 P (P1, P2) > (P1-PE1-PE2-P2), PE1 being nominal and PE2 only used in backup, in the > nominal situation, if the core network sends the trafic to PE1 via PE2 > (used as a P/transit), how does PE2 know that it must send this > traffic to PE1? (rather than CE2) > > - this behavior looks like an additional specific feature. How doew > ePE1 knows that ePE2 have this feature? > > --- > > §4.3 > > " Hence if the platform supports the "unflattened" forwarding chain, > > then a single pathlist needs to be updated while if the platform > > supports a shallower forwarding chain, then two pathlists need to be > > updated." > > IINM "single" and "two" pathlist applies to the specific example. In > this last sentence/summary, I'd prefer a more general statement. A > priori, without digging too much in this most complex use case, it > seems like :s/single/o(1) :s/two/o(PE) . The former looks close > (single vs o(1)) but IMHO there is a significant difference between 2 > and o(PE) (i.e. 100s) > > --- > > §5.1 > > Good paragraph. It's quite clear that the convergence time does not > depend on the number of BGP prefixes, which is good. For the benefit > of the reader, it would be even more interesting if, for each type of > failure, the text could indicate on what it depends. e.g. o(1), > o(connected interfaces), o(PE), o(PEnominal*PEbackup).... > > -- > > §7 > > "No additional security risk is introduced by using the mechanisms > proposed in this document" > > In general, with such a sentence, it's difficult to evaluate whether > the authors have very quickly evaluated the risk or if this evaluation > has been performed in details. So in general, some more text detailing > which aspects have been evaluated is interesting for the reader (yet > painful for the authors). > > As the document describe an internal box behavior, this is difficult > to evaluate and discuss. But from a bad experience, I fear that there > may be an impact. Indeed, with such structure, the FIB > structure/memory is typically different between BGP prefixes and IGP > prefixes. In general, the implementation is designed to support the > "right" numbers of both. But assuming an accident or an attack, the > numbers may not be "right". e.g. one upon a time, someone has > redistributed the BGP table into the IGP. In this case, the total > number of IP prefixes in the FIB is exactly the same. But as the data > structure used in the FIB was different between BGP and IGP prefixes, > the FIB ran out of memory and the line card crashed (well actually > only the IP FIB, so IS-IS hello packet were still correctly sent and > forwarded. As a result, traffic was permanently black holed) > > --- > > § 9 > > OLD: that allows achieving prefix independent convergence > > NEW: that allows achieving BGP prefixes independent convergence > > (it's still depend on the number of IGP prefixes and/or BGP pathlist) > > *Nits:* > > Abstract > > "via more than one path." > > In this 1rst sentence, it's not clear what path really means. (e.g cf > the terminology section where you have more than one). I guess that > you mean "BGP path". (as there are also typically multiple IGP path to > reach each BGP Next Hop) > > "The objective is achieved through organizing the forwarding chains" > > "chain" does not self self explicit to me. what about :s/chains/data > structure" > > "complete transparency" > > what do you mean? transparency to what / from who? > > §1 > > OLD: to allow for more than one path for a given prefix > > NEW: to allow for BGP to advertise more than one path for a given prefix > > OLD: Another more common and widely deployed scenario is L3VPN with > multi-homed VPN sites > > NEW: Another more common and widely deployed scenario is L3VPN with > multi-homed VPN sites with unique Route Distinguisher. > > --- > > §1.2 > > "Pathlist: It is an array of paths" > > "OutLabel-Array: The OutLabel-Array is a list of one or more outgoing > labels " > > So a list is defined as an array and the array is defined as a list :-). > > What about using the same term, e.g. a list? > > -- > > The OutLabel-Array is a list of one or more > > outgoing labels and/or label actions where each label or label > > action has 1-to-1 correspondence to a path in the pathlist. It > > is possible that the number of entries in the OutLabel-array is > > different from the number of paths in the pathlist and the ith > > Outlabel-Array entry is associated with the path whose path- > > index is "i". > > - I don't see how one can have a 1-to-1 correspondance if the number > of elements is not the same. > > - Last sentence could be splitted in 2. > > -- > > Since the term ingres PE is defined, you could also detine the term > egress PE. Possibly in the same sentence. > > OLD: "Ingress PE, "iPE": It is a BGP speaker that learns about a > > prefix through another IBGP peer and chooses that IBGP peer as > > the next-hop for the prefix > > NEW: "Ingress PE, "iPE": It is a BGP speaker that learns about a > > prefix through a IBGP peer and chooses an egress PE as the > next-hop for the prefix. > > As a side note, the previous definition assume that there were no > Route Relfector (the iBGP peer is the BGP Next Hop) > > -- > > §2.3 > > Figure 1 represents a VPN network with 3 PE and a CE. In this context, > "VPN-P1" sounds a bit like a P router. What about :s/VPN-P1/VPN-IP1 ? > Same comment for IGP-P1. > > -- > > §2.3.2 > > OLD: ePE2 constructs the forwarding chain depicted in Figure 1 > > NEW: ePE2 constructs the forwarding chain depicted in Figure 3 > > OLD: VPL-L11 > > NEW: VPN-L11 > > §2.3.3 > > OLD: can reach ASBR1 > > NEW: can reach ASBR11 > > OLD: The label for advertised by ASBR11 to iPE > > NEW: The label advertised by ASBR11 to iPE > > OLD: The labels for advertised by ASBR12 to iPE > > NEW: The labels advertised by ASBR12 to iPE > > OLD: The labels for advertised to iPE by ASBR11 using BGP-LU > > NEW: The labels advertised by ASBR11 to iPE using BGP-LU > > --- > > §3 > > OLD: Let's applying the above forwarding steps to the example > described in Figure 1 Section 2.3.1. > > OLD: Let's applying the above forwarding steps to the example > described in Figure 2 Section 2.3.1. > > (somewhat guesssing. But in all cases, there is no figure 1 in section > 2.3.1) > > --- > > §4.1 > > IMO > > OLD: As soon as the IGP convergence is effective for the BGP nhop > entry, the new forwarding state is immediately available to all > dependent BGP prefixes. > > NEW: As soon as the IGP convergence is effective for a BGP next-hop > entry, the new forwarding state is immediately available to all > dependent BGP prefixes. > > more generally > > :s/nhop/next-hop > > --- > > §4.3 > > :s/PE222/PE22 > > Best regards, > > Bruno > > ** > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. --------------050700020907010209010406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks a lot for the valuable comments.

I will try the address the comments in the next spin

Ahmed

On 4/20/2016 6:53 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00
Reviewer: Bruno Decraene
IETF LC End Date: “QA review” pre WG LC
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:

I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication.

Comments:

- Document is interesting. Document is relatively clear but sometime it feels like there is a little room for some reformulation/edition to improve fluidity. In particular, the learning curve is a bit steep at the beginning of the doc as most of the concepts are introduced in 3 pages (pages 4-6) in the form of a list of terminology and a pseudo code. I would find useful to have an overview section just after the introduction, with a high level view of the solution with a limited number of new terms.

- The text feels like authoritative, while probably many terms are implementation specific. A priori, I would not expect all implementation of BGP PIC to use the same terms, and possibly not the same data structure. May be the text could be generalized to cover multiple implementations; or modified to describe a generalized concept (i.e. data-structure designed to share as much data as possible between elements, at the cost of additional indirections); or the document could state that it describes a specific implementation with implementations specific terminology, data structure, and specifics. Or a combination of both (e.g. adding a section being both generalized and describing the concept, and then the existing sections after stating that they are specific to one implementation).

 

Minor Issues:

 

- I find figure 2 very useful to understand the data-structure. I would move it sooner in the doc, somewhere before §2.2. (with its subsequent text below) e.g. a new §2.2 "FIB data-structure"

It would need to be generalized i.e. example non-specific. I could think of:

 

IP Leaf:      Pathlist:       IP Leaf:                Pathlist:

--------      ---------       -------                 --------

BGP NLRI ---> BGP NH1   ----> IGP IP1 (BGP NH1)  ---> IGP NH1, I1  ---> Adjacency1

              BGP NHi   --...                         IGP NHi, Ii  --..

               |                                         |

               |                                         |

                |                                         |

                v                                         v

          OutLabel Array:                           OutLabel Array:

          --------------                            --------------

          L (NLRI, NH1)                             L (IP1, NH1)

          L (NLRI, NHi)                             L (IP1, NHi)

                                                

 

- Figure 1 could be enhanced with IGP-NH1, IGP-NH2, I1 and I2.

- Example 3 does not use the same naming convention than examples 1 and 2, this make it harder to follow for a priori no reason. e.g. VPN labels are named VPN-L11 in examples 1 and 2, but are named VPN-PE21(P1) in exmaple 3; transport labels are named LDP-L12 in exmaples 1 and 2, but LASBR11(PE22) and L11 in figure 3.

- §2.3.3

"The local labels of the next hops".

 - All labels are locally assigned. So what do you mean by "local"

- "next-hop" sometimes refers to IGP/connected next-hop (a priori the case here) and sometimes to BGP next-hop. I find it hard to follow. I rather use a different name (e.g; connected next-hop vs BGP next-hop)

- §3

"the hashing at the BGP level yields path 0 while the hashing at the IGP level yields path 1. In that case, the packet will be sent out of interface I1 with the label stack "LDP-L12,VPN-L21".

Does not seem to match my understanding. For "LDP-L12,VPN-L21" I would assume BGP used path index 1 and IGP used path index 0.

 

IMHO:

OLD: "Hence ASBR22 swaps "LASBR22(PE22)" with the LDP/SR label of PE22, pushes the label of the next-hop towards PE22 in domain 2, and sends the packet along the shortest path towards PE22."

NEW: "Hence ASBR22 swaps "LASBR22(PE22)" with the LDP/SR label for PE22 advertised by the next-hop towards PE22 in domain 2, and sends the packet along the shortest path towards PE22."

(in all cases "swaps" then "pushes" would increase the label stack by 1, which is not the case.)

 

§4.1

"the useable paths in the loadinfo"

loadinfo is a proprietary FIB datastructure which has not been introduced/defined. You need to either remove that term (if possible) or define it somewhere.

 

"Hence traffic restoration occurs within the time frame of IGP convergence,"

agree.

..."and, for local link failure, within the timeframe of local detection. Thus it is possible to achieve sub-50 msec convergence as described in [10] for local link failure"

IMO, this is restricted to specific cases. e.g. external (eBGP) link failure, ECMP case, possibly IP FRR.  So possibly

OLD: for local link failure, within the timeframe of local detection. Thus it is possible to achieve sub-50 msec convergence as described in [10] for local link failure

NEW: for local link failure, assuming a backup path has been precomputed, within the timeframe of local detection (e.g. 50ms). Example of solutions precomputing a backup path are IP FRR [LFA], [RLFA], [MRT], [TI-LFA] or eBGP path having a backup path [10].

 

§4

I would find useful to indicate, for each type of failure, the number of data-structure that need to be updated.

---

§4.2.2

"To avoid loops, ePE2 MUST treat any core facing path as a backup

      path, otherwise ePE2 may redirect traffic arriving from the core

      back to ePE1 causing a loop."

                 

Looks a bit under-described to me. Could you please elaborate a bit? In particular:

- if 2 PE (PE1, PE2) are connected in U to 2 P (P1, P2)     (P1-PE1-PE2-P2), PE1 being nominal and PE2 only used in backup, in the nominal situation, if the core network sends the trafic to PE1 via PE2 (used as a P/transit), how does PE2 know that it must send this traffic to PE1? (rather than CE2)

- this behavior looks like an additional specific feature. How doew ePE1 knows that ePE2 have this feature?

---

§4.3

"  Hence if the platform supports the "unflattened" forwarding chain,

   then a single pathlist needs to be updated while if the platform

   supports a shallower forwarding chain, then two pathlists need to be

   updated."

IINM "single"  and "two" pathlist applies to the specific example. In this last sentence/summary, I'd prefer a more general statement. A priori, without digging too much in this most complex use case, it seems like :s/single/o(1)  :s/two/o(PE) . The former looks close (single vs o(1)) but IMHO there is a significant difference between 2 and o(PE) (i.e. 100s)

---

§5.1

Good paragraph. It's quite clear that the convergence time does not depend on the number of BGP prefixes, which is good. For the benefit of the reader, it would be even more interesting if, for each type of failure, the text could indicate on what it depends. e.g.  o(1), o(connected interfaces), o(PE), o(PEnominal*PEbackup)....  

--

§7

"No additional security risk is introduced by using the mechanisms proposed in this document"

In general, with such a sentence, it's difficult to evaluate whether the authors have very quickly evaluated the risk or if this evaluation has been performed in details. So in general, some more text detailing which aspects have been evaluated is interesting for the reader (yet painful for the authors).

As the document describe an internal box behavior, this is difficult to evaluate and discuss. But from a bad experience, I fear that there may be an impact. Indeed, with such structure, the FIB structure/memory is typically different between BGP prefixes and IGP prefixes. In general, the implementation is designed to support the "right" numbers of both. But assuming an accident or an attack, the numbers may not be "right". e.g. one upon a time, someone has redistributed the BGP table into the IGP. In this case, the total number of IP prefixes in the FIB is exactly the same. But as the data structure used in the FIB was different between BGP and IGP prefixes, the FIB ran out of memory and the line card crashed (well actually only the IP FIB, so IS-IS hello packet were still correctly sent and forwarded. As a result, traffic was permanently black holed)

---

§ 9

OLD: that allows achieving prefix independent convergence

NEW: that allows achieving BGP prefixes independent convergence

 

(it's still depend on the number of IGP prefixes and/or BGP pathlist)

 

Nits:

 

Abstract

"via more than one path."

In this 1rst sentence, it's not clear what path really means. (e.g cf the terminology section where you have more than one). I guess that you mean "BGP path". (as there are also typically multiple IGP path to reach each BGP Next Hop)

 

"The objective is achieved through organizing the forwarding chains"

"chain" does not self self explicit to me. what about :s/chains/data structure"

 

"complete transparency"

what do you mean? transparency to what / from who?

§1

OLD: to allow for more than one path for a given prefix

NEW: to allow for BGP to advertise more than one path for a given prefix

 

OLD: Another more common and widely deployed scenario is L3VPN with multi-homed VPN sites

NEW: Another more common and widely deployed scenario is L3VPN with multi-homed VPN sites with unique Route Distinguisher.

 

---

§1.2

"Pathlist: It is an array of paths"

"OutLabel-Array: The OutLabel-Array is a list of one or more outgoing labels "

 

So a list is defined as an array and the array is defined as a list :-).

What about using the same term, e.g. a list?

--

The OutLabel-Array is a list of one or more

      outgoing labels and/or label actions where each label or label

      action has 1-to-1 correspondence to a path in the pathlist. It

      is possible that the number of entries in the OutLabel-array is

      different from the number of paths in the pathlist and the ith

      Outlabel-Array entry is associated with the path whose path-

      index is "i".

                 

- I don't see how one can have a 1-to-1 correspondance if the number of elements is not the same.

- Last sentence could be splitted in 2.

--             

Since the term ingres PE is defined, you could also detine the term egress PE. Possibly in the same sentence.

OLD: "Ingress PE, "iPE": It is a BGP speaker that learns about a

      prefix through another IBGP peer and chooses that IBGP peer as

      the next-hop for the prefix

                 

NEW:      "Ingress PE, "iPE": It is a BGP speaker that learns about a

      prefix through a IBGP peer and chooses an egress PE as the next-hop for the prefix.

                 

As a side note, the previous definition assume that there were no Route Relfector (the iBGP peer is the BGP Next Hop)                 

--

§2.3

Figure 1 represents a VPN network with 3 PE and a CE. In this context, "VPN-P1" sounds a bit like a P router. What about :s/VPN-P1/VPN-IP1  ? Same comment for IGP-P1.

--

§2.3.2

OLD: ePE2 constructs the forwarding chain depicted in Figure 1

NEW: ePE2 constructs the forwarding chain depicted in Figure 3

 

OLD: VPL-L11

NEW: VPN-L11

 

§2.3.3

OLD: can reach ASBR1

NEW: can reach ASBR11

 

OLD: The label for advertised by ASBR11 to iPE

NEW: The label advertised by ASBR11 to iPE

 

OLD: The labels for advertised by ASBR12 to iPE

NEW: The labels advertised by ASBR12 to iPE

 

OLD: The labels for advertised to iPE by ASBR11 using BGP-LU

NEW: The labels advertised  by ASBR11 to iPE using BGP-LU

---

§3

 

OLD: Let's applying the above forwarding steps to the example described in Figure 1 Section 2.3.1.

OLD: Let's applying the above forwarding steps to the example described in Figure 2 Section 2.3.1.

 

(somewhat guesssing. But in all cases, there is no figure 1 in section 2.3.1)

 

---

§4.1

IMO

OLD: As soon as the IGP convergence is effective for the BGP nhop entry, the new forwarding state is immediately available to all dependent BGP prefixes.

NEW: As soon as the IGP convergence is effective for a BGP next-hop entry, the new forwarding state is immediately available to all dependent BGP prefixes.

 

more generally

:s/nhop/next-hop

---

§4.3

:s/PE222/PE22

 

Best regards,

Bruno

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:28:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77JJzzIPaT2i; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailex.mailcore.me (smtp.123-reg.co.uk [94.136.40.63]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B59912D0E5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 97e41b89.skybroadband.com ([151.228.27.137] helo=[192.168.0.6]) by smtp04.mailcore.me with esmtpa (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1auFP3-0001ky-Gc; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:28:29 +0100 From: Ben Niven-Jenkins Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 09:28:27 +0100 Message-Id: <719932B6-AA05-47A4-99BA-EBB842D3AFF0@niven-jenkins.co.uk> To: rtg-ads@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-Mailcore-Auth: 9600544 X-Mailcore-Domain: 172912 Archived-At: Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02.all@ietf.org, trill@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:28:34 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose = of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more = information about the Routing Directorate, please see = =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02.txt=20 Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins Review Date: 21 April 2016=20 Intended Status: Proposed Standard Summary:=20 I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the = Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. Comments:=20 Overall this is not the easiest document to read although some of that = might be due to my lack of background in TRILL and its terminology. Major Issues:=20 1) The document has an Intended Status of Proposed Standard, however it = does not contain any RFC2119 keywords and does not seem to make any = normative statements about required behaviour which I would have = expected in a Proposed Standard. 2) Section 4: If I understand correctly the TRILL-EN spoofs the Ingress = RBridge edge node's nickname in the source address field of the TRILL = header. Is this likely to introduce problems? E.g. if RBridges will = accept & forward frames that have their own source address in, does it = perpetuate routing loops or present security considerations that the = document should discuss? Section 8 on Security Considerations also looks very light on text. If = you are allowing TRILL-ENs to spoof RBridge source addresses (which I = think you are, see comment above) I think you should have a discussion = about that somewhere in the document. Minor Issues:=20 1) Section 3. I am not sure what Figure 2 is trying to convey and it is = not referred to by the main text. Is it required? 2) Section 3 says: Editor's note: [Directory] has defined Push and Pull methods for edge RBridges to get directory mapping information. The Pull Model is relative simple for TRILL-EN to implement (see Section 9). Pushing Directory information requires some reliable flooding mechanism, like the one used by IS-IS, between the edge RBridge and the TRILL encapsulating node. which gives me the impression the authors prefer pull and discourage = push as it would require something extra like IS-IS. However, Section 4 says The TRILL-EN learns this nickname by listening to the TRILL IS-IS Hellos from the Ingress RBridge. which makes me think if the TRILL-EN is running IS-IS for hellos, is = pushing the directory such an obstacle? Is whether the directory is pulled or pushed something this document = needs to discuss at all? If it does need to discuss push vs pull, should = the document be stronger and make a clearer recommendation on which = method should be used (or implemented by default) to aid with = interoperability? 3) Section 5.1 states setting TRILL boundary at aggregation switches that have many virtualized servers attached can limit the number of RBridge nodes in a TRILL domain, but introduce the issues of very large MAC&VLAN<->RBridgeEdge mapping table to be maintained by RBridge edge nodes and the necessity of enforcing AF ports. Allowing Non-RBridge nodes to pre-encapsulate data frames with TRILL header makes it possible to have a TRILL domain with a reasonable number of RBridge nodes in a large data center. All the TRILL-ENs attached to one RBridge are represented by one TRILL nickname, which can avoid the Nickname exhaustion problem. As I understand it TRILL-ENs pre-encapsulate packets that they send, but = when receiving packets the RBridge attached to the TRILL-EN decapsulates = the TRILL packet and forwards it to the TRILL-EN =E2=80=9Cnatively=E2=80=9D= (without TRILL encapsulation), as stated in section 3: When a TRILL frame arrives at an RBridge whose nickname matches with the destination nickname in the TRILL header of the frame, the processing is exactly same as normal, i.e. as specified in [RFC6325] the RBridge decapsulates the received TRILL frame and forwards the decapsulated frame to the target attached to its edge ports. Therefore all the RBridges still need to maintain a very large = "MAC&VLAN<->RBridgeEdge mapping table=E2=80=9D? If that is the case, = what advantage does this approach give over the =E2=80=9Cbase case=E2=80=9D= of setting TRILL boundary at aggregation switches? 4) Section 7 on Manageability Considerations only states that in order = for the solution to work requires the availability of a directory = service, which seems a bit redundant when the entire document is about = "Directory Assisted TRILL Encapsulation=E2=80=9D. Is this section = required? Regards Ben From nobody Sun Apr 24 01:32:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F96B12D0E5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TWn_ipIhQX1D; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 763FE12B01D; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c189so10859568pfb.3; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=OYufAB9YK6m3gko7iLHVk+szXGuEpqR9wg2Iw5LGVr0=; b=G9c4O/gjbav54VsIlqUa4kvXPwJOZ9bXCRBNJrRjudjDDuEyvpkBf6E1PaPq/bUIj4 d9jEYUdtja72upZit+1jcHAzT+TSbmNocbFoYW+JjRaHmIZRgBixsi1tVzzvj21JKmOM OsWPAtTyXHKbBPnMiiNj5PrJ/X3q829ie51VrPDANn1Z2iVYSzHWc7ZSTqoAPx/NNimA uVXwRDZUIh0MlNA7WSPCu4uSnmLzDDub8UtZwErJXQGYDA/62rt6WDxv0bAm4/PakNt+ rRgZqGg3yT6zUm/bO2IXg685g+LkEuaOGT8C2IZeqIuyrnKTIQZhnun8aK2QFzAXe2ws mUZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=OYufAB9YK6m3gko7iLHVk+szXGuEpqR9wg2Iw5LGVr0=; b=mzGo81TJ7IEm0FboguNX8xysfNcyNmqmzSMwudw5frpSz60dtwn2WKxW8sFrpL79Xt 59bQnjLpMCedUA6Dn0NOI1rasenJFmcwLDm/riF6NotxRt2nAsklMkGUwMXoOKfwwNW5 e7gN3wxz6XqzYF7mgCFIxxI4ngV8P4i5C1is9lGTkNynPamW/cKsB58xTvzp0yNXxrrV XM3aT3qrOwk+cHPVUj5zxAaS+fDRQB1I2WRmKcuBhjJbcDmpSCrK+gYTfGvQGF3ryFg1 ZA/CQarkKp2VqoV7v5ze/sMTSsah0uBzijm/7m6iMno2qzmkb/rrliHQgyVMw/YWB8/T 74Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU2RYbq/KUY+plkF0Js72v76fAMkKO0UjD/xHpPILtfCrW5W9Q2D+mtTAyTQO7M7Q== X-Received: by 10.98.1.69 with SMTP id 66mr41437126pfb.10.1461486729033; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (c-98-234-217-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [98.234.217.127]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h85sm19694778pfj.52.2016.04.24.01.32.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jon Hudson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13E238) In-Reply-To: <719932B6-AA05-47A4-99BA-EBB842D3AFF0@niven-jenkins.co.uk> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 01:32:07 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <719932B6-AA05-47A4-99BA-EBB842D3AFF0@niven-jenkins.co.uk> To: Ben Niven-Jenkins Archived-At: Cc: rtg-ads@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02.all@ietf.org, trill@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 08:32:11 -0000 WoW! Thank you so much. Jon > On Apr 24, 2016, at 1:28 AM, Ben Niven-Jenkins w= rote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. T= he Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts= as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the rev= iew is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about t= he Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/= rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir >=20 > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it w= ould be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion o= r by updating the draft. >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-trill-directory-assisted-encap-02.txt=20 > Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins > Review Date: 21 April 2016=20 > Intended Status: Proposed Standard >=20 > Summary:=20 > I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the Rou= ting ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. >=20 > Comments:=20 > Overall this is not the easiest document to read although some of that mig= ht be due to my lack of background in TRILL and its terminology. >=20 >=20 > Major Issues:=20 > 1) The document has an Intended Status of Proposed Standard, however it do= es not contain any RFC2119 keywords and does not seem to make any normative s= tatements about required behaviour which I would have expected in a Proposed= Standard. >=20 > 2) Section 4: If I understand correctly the TRILL-EN spoofs the Ingress RB= ridge edge node's nickname in the source address field of the TRILL header. I= s this likely to introduce problems? E.g. if RBridges will accept & forward f= rames that have their own source address in, does it perpetuate routing loop= s or present security considerations that the document should discuss? >=20 > Section 8 on Security Considerations also looks very light on text. If you= are allowing TRILL-ENs to spoof RBridge source addresses (which I think you= are, see comment above) I think you should have a discussion about that som= ewhere in the document. >=20 >=20 > Minor Issues:=20 > 1) Section 3. I am not sure what Figure 2 is trying to convey and it is no= t referred to by the main text. Is it required? >=20 > 2) Section 3 says: >=20 > Editor's note: [Directory] has defined Push and Pull methods for edge > RBridges to get directory mapping information. The Pull Model is > relative simple for TRILL-EN to implement (see Section 9). Pushing > Directory information requires some reliable flooding mechanism, like > the one used by IS-IS, between the edge RBridge and the TRILL > encapsulating node. >=20 > which gives me the impression the authors prefer pull and discourage push a= s it would require something extra like IS-IS. >=20 > However, Section 4 says >=20 > The TRILL-EN learns this nickname by listening > to the TRILL IS-IS Hellos from the Ingress RBridge. >=20 > which makes me think if the TRILL-EN is running IS-IS for hellos, is pushi= ng the directory such an obstacle? >=20 > Is whether the directory is pulled or pushed something this document needs= to discuss at all? If it does need to discuss push vs pull, should the docu= ment be stronger and make a clearer recommendation on which method should be= used (or implemented by default) to aid with interoperability? >=20 > 3) Section 5.1 states >=20 > setting TRILL boundary at aggregation > switches that have many virtualized servers attached can limit the > number of RBridge nodes in a TRILL domain, but introduce the issues > of very large MAC&VLAN<->RBridgeEdge mapping table to be maintained > by RBridge edge nodes and the necessity of enforcing AF ports. >=20 > Allowing Non-RBridge nodes to pre-encapsulate data frames with TRILL > header makes it possible to have a TRILL domain with a reasonable > number of RBridge nodes in a large data center. All the TRILL-ENs > attached to one RBridge are represented by one TRILL nickname, which > can avoid the Nickname exhaustion problem. >=20 > As I understand it TRILL-ENs pre-encapsulate packets that they send, but w= hen receiving packets the RBridge attached to the TRILL-EN decapsulates the T= RILL packet and forwards it to the TRILL-EN =E2=80=9Cnatively=E2=80=9D (with= out TRILL encapsulation), as stated in section 3: >=20 > When a TRILL frame arrives at an RBridge whose nickname matches with > the destination nickname in the TRILL header of the frame, the > processing is exactly same as normal, i.e. as specified in [RFC6325] > the RBridge decapsulates the received TRILL frame and forwards the > decapsulated frame to the target attached to its edge ports. >=20 > Therefore all the RBridges still need to maintain a very large "MAC&VLAN<-= >RBridgeEdge mapping table=E2=80=9D? If that is the case, what advantage doe= s this approach give over the =E2=80=9Cbase case=E2=80=9D of setting TRILL b= oundary at aggregation switches? >=20 > 4) Section 7 on Manageability Considerations only states that in order for= the solution to work requires the availability of a directory service, whic= h seems a bit redundant when the entire document is about "Directory Assiste= d TRILL Encapsulation=E2=80=9D. Is this section required? >=20 > Regards > Ben >=20 From nobody Sun Apr 24 13:42:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98BD12D0E6; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02sSMHAyeoe5; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3566212D0FD; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 13:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1auQqk-0004kf-OM; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:41:50 +0000 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 05:41:48 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Mach Chen In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "grow@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition.all@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [GROW] RtgDir review of draft-ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 20:42:04 -0000 > "... from the customer cone of the lateral peer.", what's the mean of > the "customer cone" here? It's better to use a more common term here. well known term. you want "transitive closure of customers of lateral peer?? randy From nobody Sun Apr 24 17:44:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBDA12D094; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.218 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B4J5BTWRSZaW; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E2EB12B05F; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 17:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CII71687; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:44:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:44:37 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.56]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:44:26 +0800 From: Liyizhou To: Liyizhou , Geoff Huston , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [trill] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization Thread-Index: AQHRl4GIP3VGSJP0X0KTEMHOwz8xxp+PChcwgArd1uA= Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:44:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <85F5A4D0-AE6B-4B5A-B888-0F0FF9859991@apnic.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.180.237] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.571D687A.002C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.56, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3892fa909b3e4652b982b66b17dd265d Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization@tools.ietg.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [trill] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-arp-optimization X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:44:48 -0000 SGkgR2VvZmYsDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSB1cGxvYWRlZCB0aGUgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gdG8gcmVmbGVjdCB5 b3VyIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zLiBUaGFuayB5b3UuDQoNClJnZHMsDQpZaXpob3UNCg0KLS0tLS1Pcmln aW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IExpeWl6aG91IA0KU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAx OCwgMjAxNiAxMDo1MCBBTQ0KVG86ICdHZW9mZiBIdXN0b24nOyBydGctYWRzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnDQpDYzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10cmlsbC1hcnAtb3B0aW1pemF0aW9uQHRvb2xzLmlldGcub3Jn OyBydGctZGlyQGlldGYub3JnOyB0cmlsbEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFt0cmlsbF0g UnRnRGlyIHJldmlldzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10cmlsbC1hcnAtb3B0aW1pemF0aW9uDQoNCkhpIEdl b2ZmLA0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHRoZSByZXZpZXcgYW5kIGNvbW1lbnRzLiBJIHdpbGwgdXBk YXRlIHRoZSB0ZXh0IGFzIHlvdSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgaW4gbmV4dCByZXZpc2lvbi4NCg0KVGhhbmtz LA0KWWl6aG91DQoNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IHRyaWxsIFtt YWlsdG86dHJpbGwtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEdlb2ZmIEh1c3Rvbg0K U2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIEFwcmlsIDE2LCAyMDE2IDk6NDQgQU0NClRvOiBydGctYWRzQHRvb2xz LmlldGYub3JnDQpDYzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10cmlsbC1hcnAtb3B0aW1pemF0aW9uQHRvb2xzLmll dGcub3JnOyBydGctZGlyQGlldGYub3JnOyB0cmlsbEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogW3RyaWxs XSBSdGdEaXIgcmV2aWV3OiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXRyaWxsLWFycC1vcHRpbWl6YXRpb24NCg0KSGVs bG8sDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHNlbGVjdGVkIGFzIHRoZSBSb3V0aW5nIERpcmVjdG9yYXRlIHJl dmlld2VyIGZvciB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LiBUaGUgUm91dGluZyBEaXJlY3RvcmF0ZSBzZWVrcyB0byBy ZXZpZXcgYWxsIHJvdXRpbmcgb3Igcm91dGluZy1yZWxhdGVkIGRyYWZ0cyBhcyB0aGV5IHBhc3Mg dGhyb3VnaCBJRVRGIGxhc3QgY2FsbCBhbmQgSUVTRyByZXZpZXcsIGFuZCBzb21ldGltZXMgb24g c3BlY2lhbCByZXF1ZXN0LiBUaGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiB0aGUgcmV2aWV3IGlzIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUg YXNzaXN0YW5jZSB0byB0aGUgUm91dGluZyBBRHMuIEZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFib3V0 IHRoZSBSb3V0aW5nIERpcmVjdG9yYXRlLCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VlIOKAi2h0dHA6Ly90cmFjLnRvb2xz LmlldGYub3JnL2FyZWEvcnRnL3RyYWMvd2lraS9SdGdEaXINCg0KQWx0aG91Z2ggdGhlc2UgY29t bWVudHMgYXJlIHByaW1hcmlseSBmb3IgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiB0aGUgUm91dGluZyBBRHMsIGl0IHdv dWxkIGJlIGhlbHBmdWwgaWYgeW91IGNvdWxkIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZW0gYWxvbmcgd2l0aCBhbnkg b3RoZXIgSUVURiBMYXN0IENhbGwgY29tbWVudHMgdGhhdCB5b3UgcmVjZWl2ZSwgYW5kIHN0cml2 ZSB0byByZXNvbHZlIHRoZW0gdGhyb3VnaCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9yIGJ5IHVwZGF0aW5nIHRoZSBk cmFmdC4NCg0KRG9jdW1lbnQ6IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtdHJpbGwtYXJwLW9wdGltaXphdGlvbi0wNS50 eHQNClJldmlld2VyOiBHZW9mZiBIdXN0b24NClJldmlldyBEYXRlOiAxNiBBcHJpbCAyMDE2DQpJ RVRGIExDIEVuZCBEYXRlOiBkYXRlLWlmLWtub3duIA0KSW50ZW5kZWQgU3RhdHVzOiBjb3B5LWZy b20tSS1EDQoNClN1bW1hcnk6IA0KCVRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXMgYmFzaWNhbGx5IHJlYWR5IGZv ciBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiwgYnV0IGhhcyBuaXRzIHRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGNvbnNpZGVyZWQgcHJp b3IgdG8gcHVibGljYXRpb24uDQoNCkNvbW1lbnRzOg0KCUkgZm91bmQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGNvbmNp c2UgYW5kIGNsZWFyLiBJdCB3YXMgcmVhZGFibGUgYW5kIHJlYWRpbHkgdW5kZXJzdG9vZC4NCg0K TWFqb3IgSXNzdWVzOg0KCU5vIG1ham9yIGlzc3VlcyBmb3VuZA0KDQoNCk1pbm9yIElzc3VlczoN CglObyBtaW5vciBpc3N1ZXMgZm91bmQuDQoNCk5pdHM6DQoJTWlub3I6DQoJIHNlY3Rpb24gMjog 4oCcLi4ucmVjZWl2ZSBhbmQgc2F2ZSBzdWNoIG1hcHBpbmcgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWxzby7igJ0g c2VlbXMgYSBiaXQgc3RpbHRlZCAgYW5kIEkgd291bGQgc2F5IOKAnGFsc28gcmVjZWl2ZSBhbmQg c2F2ZSBzdWNoIG1hcHBpbmcgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uDQoNCiAgICAgICAgIHNlY3Rpb24gMy4xICJw b3B1bGF0ZSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gb2Ygc2VuZGVyJ3MgSVAvTUFDIGluIGl0cyBBUlAgdGFi bGXigJ0uIERvIHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHJlYWxseSBtZWFuICJBUlAgdGFibGUiIGlmIHRoZSBpbmZv cm1hdGlvbiB3YXMgbGVhcm5lZCBieSBORD8gaS5lLiBpdHMgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCB0aGUgYXV0aG9y cyBhcmUgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBsb2NhbCBJUC9NQUMgYWRkcmVzcyB0YWJsZSwgYnV0IHRo ZSBwcmV2aW91cyB0ZXh0IHRlbmRzIHRvIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgQVJQIHdpdGggSVB2NCBhbmQgTkQg d2l0aCBJUHY2LiBQZXJoYXBzIOKAnEFBUlAvTkQgdGFibGXigJ0gPw0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCnRyaWxsIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KdHJp bGxAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdHJpbGwN Cg== From nobody Mon Apr 25 09:04:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0728612D52D for ; 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Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1461600259.1868989.588979393.728AD1A2@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: lwVr8uurrD6EG1YuHVUyPeDVYwGA7qSvUJKy1+MjauFS 1461600259 From: Dan Frost To: rtg-ads@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-76f1c811 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:04:19 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements.all@ietf.org, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:04:29 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-06 Reviewer: Dan Frost Review Date: 2016-04-25 IETF LC End Date: 2016-04-29 Intended Status: Informational (?) Summary: I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. Comments: Overall this is a clear and consistent requirements document that addresses an important real-world problem domain, and is nearly ready for publication. However, because this work may lead to significant changes in the mechanics of network management and control, some extra care in the review stage is warranted. I've marked some issues as major to indicate that they may deserve extra consideration by the ADs and/or the wider Internet community. Major Issues: 1. There seems to be some confusion as to the intended status of the document. The draft itself lists its intended status as Informational, which is usually appropriate for a requirements document. On the other hand, the draft was submitted to the IESG with an Intended Status of Proposed Standard. Furthermore, a quick check of other I2RS WG requirements docs shows them split between Informational and Proposed Standard, so the confusion may extend beyond this draft. I'd suggest the ADs and chairs agree on a consistent policy. 2. The document concerns requirements for a publish/subscribe interface to, among other things, real-time operational data. The text in Section 2.3 indicates an awareness of the need to support potentially large numbers of subscribers and high volumes of data. However, the document doesn't seem to discuss the global network impact of continuously pushing a lot of data to many subscribers. As the introduction of such a push system could lead to a qualitative shift in the total volume of management/control traffic, it seems important to begin addressing this issue at the requirements stage. A possible resolution would be to add a brief section on network impact under large-scale conditions, and/or a set of requirements for minimizing this impact. Some of the listed requirements are germane to this, e.g. subscription filters. bundling, and dampening. Issues that are not addressed include support for encoding formats that are efficient for high-volume transport and processing (XML and JSON are usually considered not to be); appropriate selection of transport protocols and features according to scale/use-case; and support for mechanisms to determine or restrict the bandwidth cost of a proposed or ongoing subscription. 3. This work is being carried out in the I2RS WG, but the first sentence of Section 2.2 states that this document is intended to cover requirements beyond I2RS. A general question for the editors/chairs/ADs is whether it has received any review by interested/affected parties outside I2RS? 4. The Security Requirements make no mention of data integrity or confidentiality. This is a potentially serious omission in today's network environment. I would expect at the least that subscribers have the ability to request a secure (authenticated, integrity-verified, confidential) session, that publishers likewise have the ability to refuse non-secure sessions, and that the security status of a session is explicitly signaled and checked by both parties during negotiation. Minor Issues: 1. The requirements in this document ought to be numbered for ease of reference. 2. Section 3: As this is a requirements doc, the RFC 2119 language paragraph could use a clarification sentence along the lines of the one in Section 1.1 of RFC 5654. 3. Section 3: It's not obvious to me from the text in this section what the distinction and intended relationship is between Receivers and Subscribers. Perhaps this can be clarified with an example? Also the statement "In general, the Receiver and Subscriber will be the same entity" doesn't sound right -- maybe you meant that in general they can be different, but usually they will be the same? 4. Section 3, last sentence: What is the difference between the terms "previous Push" and "last Update" used in this sentence? 5. Section 4.2.3, last paragraph: This paragraph would be more useful if it explained what a persistence/replay capability was and how it might work. 6. Can a definition or reference be provided for the term "object property" as used in Sections 3 and 4.2.7? This terminology seems slightly different from that used in RFC 6020. 7. Section 4.2.4: What is the purpose of stating that a subscription service should support "different" transports and encodings? This sounds too vague to be useful. Choice of transport and encoding are of great practical importance, but the document has almost nothing to say on these topics. Can the authors not provide a summary of options and some definite guidance here? 8. Section 4.2.5, third paragraph: Can you spell out in the document exactly what "Versioning" means here? 9. When the underlying transport provides some form of security, should there not be a requirement for alignment between transport security and pub/sub protocol security? Can, for example, TLS certificate validation fulfil the pub/sub authentication requirement? 10. An important use-case for such a pub/sub update service is a subscriber that wants to maintain an up-to-date local copy of a datastore residing on the publisher. This requires the ability to correlate the version of the datastore obtained via an out-of-band full download with the version reflected by each published update. Do the authors intend to allow for this case, and have they considered the associated requirements? Nits: Section 2.2, first paragraph: - s/Switches and Routers/switches and routers/ - s/past subscriptions includes/past subscription mechanisms includes/ Section 2.2, last paragraph: - s/NETCONF should the/NETCONF should be the/ - s/support Multicast and Broadcast/support for multicast and broadcast/ Section 3, 8th paragraph: - s/referred in/referred to in/ Section 3, 9th paragraph: - s/which have been made/that have been made/ Section 3, last paragraph: - s/propert(ies)/properties/ - s/different that/different than that/ Section 4, first paragraph: - s/morphed/adapted/ Section 4.1, last paragraph: - s/lease a Subscription/lease of a Subscription/ Section 4.2.1, second and third paragraphs: These two requirements seem to make more sense if "one or more" is replaced by "multiple". Section 4.2.8, third paragraph: - s/us a failure/is a failure/ Cheers, -d From nobody Mon Apr 25 10:04:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC36312D547; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rc9ML6CLr9Lu; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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port 10024) with ESMTP id J8L0hvWeS51G; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A89712D639; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79386d00000467b-bc-571e4f426b53 Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.54]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9B.F3.18043.24F4E175; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:09:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB301.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.65]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:09:17 +0200 From: Daniele Ceccarelli To: " (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 Thread-Index: AdGe+Z/lFOzQc8O7SFSbqLe7ce8oewAG1OFw Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:09:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48162BAB9E@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48162BAB9EESESSMB301erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprIIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7ma6Tv1y4wfpuGYu5UxYwWaz5t47J 4uScH8wWC9Y8ZXdg8Viy5CeTx5fLn9kCmKK4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mr492MBW8OIOU8Wx03/Z GhjvXGbqYuTkkBAwkeh9e4AFwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMARRolPj24zQjiLGSUO/7/M3MXIwcEm YCXx5JAPiCkiYCcx66IuSC+zwHlGiSWzzUFsYQEPifn3T7CC2CICnhJH1k9nhCg3kpjcXgsS ZhFQlZh/+gTYCbwCvhI3N0OcwyggKzFh9yJGiJHiEreezIc6U0BiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9YIWwl iRXbL0HV50uc/vaSEWKmoMTJmU9YJjAKz0IyahaSsllIymYBXccsoCmxfpc+RImixJTuh+wQ toZE65y57MjiCxjZVzGKFqcWF+emGxnppRZlJhcX5+fp5aWWbGIERtTBLb+tdjAefO54iFGA g1GJh3cBp2y4EGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRHe5d5y4UK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYpTlYlMR5cyL/ hQkJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoY8zcLV+5fJOTcbdAfKvu5KXnL+gbzH20mv2Lk+3TjmPpd 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by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:16:03 -0400 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc@ietf.org" , Routing ADs Thread-Topic: Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) Thread-Index: AQHRnxYlQYfeCPyXgkGAG4vr+m6GrQ== Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:16:03 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.196] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <288AD52B6E1EA641803DF791969AD991@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Routing Directorate , Routing WG Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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Malis" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 14:39:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Daniele Ceccarelli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113cd1906b691f0531538136 Archived-At: Cc: " \(rtg-ads@ietf.org\)" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp.all@tools.ietf.org" , "pals@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Pals] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:40:52 -0000 --001a113cd1906b691f0531538136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniele, On behalf of the PALS WG, thanks for your review! Cheers, Andy On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Daniele Ceccarelli < daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> wrote: > Resending to the right exploder > > > > *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli > *Sent:* luned=C3=AC 25 aprile 2016 19:04 > *To:* (rtg-ads@ietf.org) > *Cc:* 'rtg-dir@ietf.org'; ' > draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp.all@ietf.org' > *Subject:* RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 > > > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, plea= se > see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 > Reviewer: Daniele Ceccarelli > Review Date: April 25 2016 > IETF LC End Date: - > Intended Status: Standard Track > > *Summary:* > > - I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should > be resolved before publication. > > *Comments:* > > - What the drafts is proposing as protocol modification is clear and > also the operation section are pretty straighforward. What needs to be > improved is the introduction part, which should be reviewed by a nativ= e > English speaker. Also the IANA section should be made clearer. > > *Major Issues:* > > - No major issues found > > *Minor Issues:* > > - Abstract: =E2=80=9CIn addition, the user traffic may traverse throug= h > multiple transport networks.=E2=80=9D Maybe is worth elaborating a bit= this > sentence saying that the extensions defined in this draft apply both t= o > SS-PW and MS-PW. > - In the abstract it is said that a PW is linked to an LSP but then in > the intro it is said that the PW binding is to a tunnel. Can you clari= fy > this? I=E2=80=99d say that it should be linked to a tunnel, right? > - Intro: =E2=80=9CPW-to-PSN Tunnel binding has become increasingly c= ommon > and important in many deployment scenarios=E2=80=9D. I guess you mean = an automatic > binding done via a signaling protocol? > - What do you mean with =E2=80=9Cmay traverse through different routes= =E2=80=9D? I > suggest leaving =E2=80=9Cmay traverse multiple networks or domains. > - Intro and Figure 1: could be example be made a bit more generic with > a network between the PEs? With directly connected PEs it doesn=E2=80= =99t seem a > realistic and generic enough example. > - Intro: suggest removing =E2=80=9CAs mentioned above=E2=80=9D. > - The name of the draft explicitly mentions MPLS-TP but in the rest > of the draft there is no mention of it, just the much more general Pac= ket > Switching Network term is used. > - Section 2: =E2=80=9CThis document defines a new optional TLV, PSN = Tunnel > Binding TLV, to communicate tunnel/LSPs selection and binding requests > between PEs. =E2=80=9C The binding request is between PEs? Or between = an PW and a > Tunnel (or LSP?) between two PEs? > - Section 2: Strict binding vs Co-routed binding: from the description > it seems that the first one is strict and the second one is =E2=80=9Cl= oose=E2=80=9D (in the > sense that the PE can accept the request or not). Don=E2=80=99t both a= pply to > co-routed LSPs? > - Section 2: =E2=80=9DThe terminology "LSP" is identical to the "LSP = tunnel" > defined in Section 2.1 of [RFC3209], which is uniquely identified by = the > SESSION object together with SENDER_TEMPLATE (or FILTER_SPEC) object = that > consists of LSP ID and Tunnel endpoint address.=E2=80=9D Why is the dr= aft > considering only signaled LSPs? Doesn=E2=80=99t it apply also to centr= ally > provisioned ones? (e.g. NMS or SDN). > - Section 2.1: =E2=80=9CLDP Label Mapping message=E2=80=9D missing ref= erence. And why > the Type field starts with 1 and 0? > > *Nits:* > > - Abstract s/ traverse through multiple/ traverse multiple > - Introduction: =E2=80=9CPseudowire (PW) Emulation Edge-to-Edge (PWE3)= =E2=80=9D. I > suggest removing (PW), it=E2=80=99s already included into PWE3. > - Intro: s/ a bidirectional circuits/ a bidirectional circuit > - Intro: suggest rephrasing: =E2=80=9CBidirectional LSPs share fate an= d > simplify the routing of a protection path also consisting of > bidirectional LSPs because working and protection paths have to be > disjoint.=E2=80=9D > - Intro: s/ there are a large number/ there is a large number > - Intro:s/to be carried/are carried > - Intro:s/there are a number/there is a number > - Intro: s/ traffic belongs/traffic belonging > - Intro: (suggestion) s/(PE1-P3-PE2)/ (PE2-P3-PE1) since we are > speaking about directionality it makes more sense to list the nodes of= the > path in the reverse direction. > - Intro: s/ The similar problems/A similar problem > - Intro: s/ won't/does not > - Intro: s/ In this document, it introduces/This document introduces > > BR > Daniele > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pals mailing list > Pals@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals > > --001a113cd1906b691f0531538136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Daniele,

On behalf of the PALS WG, thanks for your review!
<= br>
Cheers,
=
Andy

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:09 P= M, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&g= t; wrote:

Resending to the right= exploder

=C2=A0

From: Daniele = Ceccarelli
Sent: luned=C3=AC 25 aprile 2016 19:04
To: <rtg-ad= s@ietf.org> (r= tg-ads@ietf.org)
Cc: 'rtg-d= ir@ietf.org'; 'draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over= -bidir-lsp.all@ietf.org'
Subject: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06=

=C2=A0

= Hello,

I have been selected as the Ro= uting Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to= review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF las= t call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to = the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please= see=C2=A0=E2=80= =8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/a= rea/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are pr= imarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could co= nsider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, = and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document:=C2=A0draft-iet= f-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06
Reviewer: Daniele Ceccarelli
Review Date: April 25 2016
IETF LC End Date: -
Intended Status: Standard Track

Summary:=C2=A0

  • I= have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolv= ed before publication.

Comments:

  • W= hat the drafts is proposing as protocol modification is clear and also the = operation section are pretty straighforward. What needs to be improved is t= he introduction part, which should be reviewed by a native English speaker. Also the IANA section should be made clearer. <= /u>

Major Issues:

  • N= o major issues found

Minor Issues:

  • A= bstract: =E2=80=9CIn addition, the user traffic may traverse through multip= le transport networks.=E2=80=9D Maybe is worth elaborating a bit this sente= nce saying that the extensions defined in this draft apply both to SS-PW and MS-PW.
  • I= n the abstract it is said that a PW is linked to an LSP but then in the int= ro it is said that the PW binding is to a tunnel. Can you clarify this? I= =E2=80=99d say that it should be linked to a tunnel, right?
  • I= ntro:=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CPW-to-PSN Tunnel binding has become increasingly= common and important in many deployment scenarios=E2=80=9D. I guess you me= an an automatic binding done via a signaling protocol?=
  • W= hat do you mean with =E2=80=9Cmay traverse through different routes=E2=80= =9D? I suggest leaving =E2=80=9Cmay traverse multiple networks or domains.<= u>
  • I= ntro and Figure 1: could be example be made a bit more generic with a netwo= rk between the PEs? With directly connected PEs it doesn=E2=80=99t seem a r= ealistic and generic enough example.
  • I= ntro: suggest removing =E2=80=9CAs mentioned above=E2=80=9D.
  • = =C2=A0The name of the draft explicitly mentions MPLS-TP but in the rest of = the draft there is no mention of it, just the much more general Packet Swit= ching Network term is used.
  • S= ection 2:=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThis document defines a new optional TLV, PS= N Tunnel Binding TLV, to communicate tunnel/LSPs selection and binding requ= ests between PEs. =E2=80=9C The binding request is between PEs? Or between = an PW and a Tunnel (or LSP?) between two PEs?
  • S= ection 2: Strict binding vs Co-routed binding: from the description it seem= s that the first one is strict and the second one is =E2=80=9Cloose=E2=80= =9D (in the sense that the PE can accept the request or not). Don=E2=80=99t= both apply to co-routed LSPs?
  • S= ection 2: =E2=80=9DThe terminology "LSP" is=C2=A0 identical to th= e "LSP tunnel" defined in Section 2.1 of [RFC3209],=C2=A0 which i= s uniquely identified by the SESSION object together with=C2=A0 SENDER_TEMP= LATE (or FILTER_SPEC) object that consists of LSP ID and Tunnel endpoint address.=E2=80=9D Why i= s the draft considering only signaled LSPs? Doesn=E2=80=99t it apply also t= o centrally provisioned ones? (e.g. NMS or SDN).
    • <= li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black;background:white"> S= ection 2.1: =E2=80=9CLDP Label Mapping message=E2=80=9D missing reference. = And why the Type field starts with 1 and 0?

Nits:

  • A= bstract s/ traverse through multiple/ traverse multiple
  • I= ntroduction: =E2=80=9CPseudowire (PW) Emulation Edge-to-Edge (PWE3)=E2=80= =9D. I suggest removing (PW), it=E2=80=99s already included into PWE3.
  • I= ntro: s/ a bidirectional circuits/ a bidirectional circuit
  • I= ntro: suggest rephrasing: =E2=80=9CBidirectional LSPs share fate and simpli= fy the routing of a protection path also consisting of bidirectional=C2=A0= =C2=A0 LSPs because working and protection paths have to be disjoint.=E2=80= =9D
  • I= ntro: s/ there are a large number/ there is a large number
  • I= ntro:s/to be carried/are carried
  • I= ntro:s/there are a number/there is a number
  • I= ntro: s/ traffic belongs/traffic belonging
  • I= ntro: (suggestion) s/(PE1-P3-PE2)/ (PE2-P3-PE1) since we are speaking about= directionality it makes more sense to list the nodes of the path in the re= verse direction.
  • I= ntro: s/ The similar problems/A similar problem
    • I= ntro: s/ won't/does not
  • I= ntro: s/ In this document, it introduces/This document introduces=

BR
Daniele

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Pals mailing list
Pals@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals


--001a113cd1906b691f0531538136-- From nobody Mon Apr 25 12:02:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FAC12D693; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YsJjbkJEnsA; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E28E12D679; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id r78so186888014oie.0; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=nnGXI76UDtWXMX9QP6pHtLyScutMauY7zUyoc3YbVOc=; b=UMhN/bgEfJIcqcthK66VnaZMqttFbz/V+wC8ogw8JITIY565m/z20sl4YAoObBAnk2 EaxxUt5Lh++YwEHCV2MqdezEeFy/+aZdcTmclw82c/NIvOn01j1ClLLOtvvZNoIpa1iA 3GBcdBI+8TBtzf3HznJqRMEjnzJ8n3RW567LXa/fh438kikmmerL5W/x3HHy9QRgtTqS PsNgfHjrArf40EOaL7ox57YO8j6rLW+qYVB1ExITK1k7HDEvD5Xt/KBkOvfP4wQXBX94 P3qT7NQMGeF5myfYEo4ACIArYvCclLK4aSO5bRXJwcE4l5H5wAWWHmMpy/7ce1GxeSnz 9ySQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=nnGXI76UDtWXMX9QP6pHtLyScutMauY7zUyoc3YbVOc=; b=gZG9AzViBwrltxBRhOuAm6RbgPflFYOE0O6RfyjT4lrrsLPATqcUh/Nq0dMIWTSbJ8 mscYLktEiJKPW7OifPCiP/2QG9y7lA/sbdHxbQTL/ny0hw0BOBzRXI5o/JLE5x/0wQ5b 48pfBWuw12Bshmd/NUTkVECIvgPC/iozHuhzaa36soanY2xQrKKhCeICoHwkeoiQ/gd3 ZZs6ImdS+tbwYMhiEDyOjwAr5wED+AUX1OZCabTZKHB7JFGt3xZK5HWOPIRQluiQWEJq PIR3seTzq79Ur6tcmcQ60YXwapstAAPpqZu6pN4ulsfN1Sp1hCDtIugh+EWl8s0opDBS tqJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWQ1Jb1+F8o2yXqcJqM9mzuRpdI77tjW/qomGc9DicR4NfBjVXLJVYQMopyGYFGYmoZyqK71D/T/w9SxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.105.198 with SMTP id e189mr509359oic.195.1461610918346; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:01:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141b26696bc01053153cfed Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc@ietf.org" , Routing WG , Routing Directorate , Routing ADs Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:02:17 -0000 --001a1141b26696bc01053153cfed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, Thank you very much for your review. Authors, could you please respond soon? I am hoping to get this out to IETF Last Call by Thursday - and on the telechat for May 19. That depends on timely updates from the authors and shepherd. Thanks, Alia On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, > please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc-09.txt > Reviewer: Acee Lindem > Review Date: 4/25/16 > IETF LC End Date: Not started > Intended Status: Informational > > Summary: > This document is basically ready for publication, but has some minor > issues and nits that should be resolved prior to publication. > > Comments: > The document starts with the requirements for an MSDC routing and the= n > provides an overview of Clos data topologies and data center network > design. This overview attempts to cover a lot of a material in a very > small amount of text. While not completely successful, the overview > provides a lot of good information and references. The bulk of the > document covers the usage of EBGP as the sole data center routing protoco= l > and other aspects of the routing design including ECMP, summarization > issues, and convergence. These sections provide a very good guide for > using EBGP in a Clos data center and an excellent discussion of the > deployment issues (based on real deployment experience). > > The technical content of the document is excellent. The readability > could be improved by breaking up some of the run-on sentences and with th= e > suggested editorial changes (see Nits below). > > > Major Issues: > > I have no major issues with the document. > > Minor Issues: > > Section 4.2: Can an informative reference be added for Direct Server > Return (DSR)? > Section 5.2.4 and 7.4: Define precisely what is meant by "scale-out" > topology somewhere in the document. > Section 5.2.5: Can you add a backward reference to the discussion of > "lack of peer links inside every peer=E2=80=9D? Also, it would be good to= describe > how this would allow for summarization and under what failure conditions. > Section 7.4: Should you add a reference to > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00.txt to the penultimat= e > paragraph in this section? > > Nits: > > *************** > *** 143,149 **** > network stability so that a small group of people can effectively > support a significantly sized network. > > ! Experimentation and extensive testing has shown that External BGP > (EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routing protocol fo= r > these type of data center applications. This is in contrast with > more traditional DC designs, which may se simple tree topologies and > --- 143,149 ---- > network stability so that a sall group of people can effectively > support a significantly sized network. > > ! Experimentation and extensive testing have shown that External BGP > (EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routing protocol fo= r > these type of data center applications. This is in contrast with > more traditional DC designs, which may use simple tree topologies an= d > *************** > *** 178,191 **** > 2.1. Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns > > The primary requirement when building an interconnection network for > ! large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwidth and > latency requirements. Until recently it was quite common to see the > majority of traffic entering and leaving the data center, commonly > referred to as "north-south" traffic. Traditional "tree" topologies > were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with high > oversubscription ratios between the layers of the network. If more > bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling up" the network > ! elements, e.g. by upgrading the device's linecards or fabrics or > replacing the device with one with higher port density. > > Today many large-scale data centers host applications generating > --- 178,191 ---- > 2.1. Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns > > The primary requirement when building an interconnection network for > ! a large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwidth an= d > latency requirements. Until recently it was quite common to see the > majority of traffic entering and leaving the data center, commonly > referred to as "north-south" traffic. Traditional "tree" topologies > were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with high > oversubscription ratios between the layers of the network. If more > bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling up" the network > ! elements, e.g., by upgrading the device's linecards or fabrics or > replacing the device with one with higher port density. > > Today many large-scale data centers host applications generating > *************** > *** 195,201 **** > [HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters needed by certai= n > applications, or virtual machine migrations. Scaling traditional > tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands becomes either too > ! expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g. port > density in a switch. > > 2.2. CAPEX Minimization > --- 195,201 ---- > [HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters needed by certai= n > applications, or virtual machine migrations. Scaling traditional > tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands becomes either too > ! expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g., port > density in a switch. > > 2.2. CAPEX Minimization > *************** > *** 209,215 **** > > o Unifying all network elements, preferably using the same hardware > type or even the same device. This allows for volume pricing on > ! bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and sparing costs. > > o Driving costs down using competitive pressures, by introducing > multiple network equipment vendors. > --- 209,215 ---- > > o Unifying all network elements, preferably using the same hardware > type or even the same device. This allows for volume pricing on > ! bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and inventory costs. > > o Driving costs down using competitive pressures, by introducing > multiple network equipment vendors. > *************** > *** 234,244 **** > minimizes software issue-related failures. > > An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) minimization i= s > ! reducing size of failure domains in the network. Ethernet networks > are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast traffic storms > that can have a dramatic impact on network performance and > availability. The use of a fully routed design significantly reduce= s > ! the size of the data plane failure domains - i.e. limits them to the > lowest level in the network hierarchy. However, such designs > introduce the problem of distributed control plane failures. This > observation calls for simpler and less control plane protocols to > --- 234,244 ---- > minimizes software issue-related failures. > > An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) minimization i= s > ! reducing the size of failure domains in the network. Ethernet > networks > are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast traffic storms > that can have a dramatic impact on network performance and > availability. The use of a fully routed design significantly reduce= s > ! the size of the data plane failure domains, i.e., limits them to the > lowest level in the network hierarchy. However, such designs > introduce the problem of distributed control plane failures. This > observation calls for simpler and less control plane protocols to > *************** > *** 253,259 **** > performed by network devices. Traditionally, load balancers are > deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding path. The > problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing traffic > ! demand. A preferable solution would be able to scale load balancing > layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes and > distributing incoming traffic across these nodes. In situations lik= e > this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastructure itself > --- 253,259 ---- > performed by network devices. Traditionally, load balancers are > deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding path. The > problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing traffic > ! demand. A preferable solution would be able to scale the load > balancing > layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes and > distributing incoming traffic across these nodes. In situations lik= e > this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastructure itself > *************** > *** 305,311 **** > 3.1. Traditional DC Topology > > In the networking industry, a common design choice for data centers > ! typically look like a (upside down) tree with redundant uplinks and > three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/distribution and > access layers (see Figure 1). To accommodate bandwidth demands, eac= h > higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has higher port > --- 305,311 ---- > 3.1. Traditional DC Topology > > In the networking industry, a common design choice for data centers > ! typically look like an (upside down) tree with redundant uplinks and > three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/distribution and > access layers (see Figure 1). To accommodate bandwidth demands, eac= h > higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has higher port > *************** > *** 373,379 **** > topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, for example, [INTERCON] > and [ALFARES2008]). This topology features an odd number of stages > (sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of uniform > ! elements, e.g. network switches with the same port count. Therefore= , > the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and facilitates > REQ2. See Figure 2 below for an example of a folded 3-stage Clos > topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tracing a packe= t > --- 373,379 ---- > topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, for example, [INTERCON] > and [ALFARES2008]). This topology features an odd number of stages > (sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of uniform > ! elements, e.g., network switches with the same port count. Therefor= e, > the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and facilitates > REQ2. See Figure 2 below for an example of a folded 3-stage Clos > topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tracing a packe= t > *************** > *** 460,466 **** > 3.2.3. Scaling the Clos topology > > A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing network element > ! port density or adding more stages, e.g. moving to a 5-stage Clos, a= s > illustrated in Figure 3 below: > > Tier-1 > --- 460,466 ---- > 3.2.3. Scaling the Clos topology > > A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing network element > ! port density or adding more stages, e.g., moving to a 5-stage Clos, = as > illustrated in Figure 3 below: > > Tier-1 > *************** > *** 523,529 **** > 3.2.4. Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers > > If a data center network size is small, it is possible to reduce the > ! number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of Clos topology by a factor > of two. To understand how this could be done, take Tier-1 as an > example. Every Tier-2 device connects to a single group of Tier-1 > devices. If half of the ports on each of the Tier-1 devices are not > --- 523,529 ---- > 3.2.4. Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers > > If a data center network size is small, it is possible to reduce the > ! number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of a Clos topology by a facto= r > of two. To understand how this could be done, take Tier-1 as an > example. Every Tier-2 device connects to a single group of Tier-1 > devices. If half of the ports on each of the Tier-1 devices are not > *************** > *** 574,580 **** > originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free topology > creation, typically utilizing variants of the traditional DC topolog= y > described in Section 3.1. At the time, many DC switches either did > ! not support Layer 3 routed protocols or supported it with additional > licensing fees, which played a part in the design choice. Although > many enhancements have been made through the introduction of Rapid > Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of > --- 574,580 ---- > originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free topology > creation, typically utilizing variants of the traditional DC topolog= y > described in Section 3.1. At the time, many DC switches either did > ! not support Layer 3 routing protocols or supported them with > additional > licensing fees, which played a part in the design choice. Although > many enhancements have been made through the introduction of Rapid > Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of > *************** > *** 599,605 **** > as the backup for loop prevention. The major downsides of this > approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past two in most > implementations, lack of standards based implementations, and added > ! failure domain risk of keeping state between the devices. > > It should be noted that building large, horizontally scalable, Layer > 2 only networks without STP is possible recently through the > --- 599,605 ---- > as the backup for loop prevention. The major downsides of this > approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past two in most > implementations, lack of standards based implementations, and added > ! the failure domain risk of syncing state between the devices. > > It should be noted that building large, horizontally scalable, Layer > 2 only networks without STP is possible recently through the > *************** > *** 621,631 **** > Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M-LAG approach > totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast domain, that i= s > so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethernet based > ! solutions. Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to solve the > this problem statement primarily based on the approaches outlined in > [RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of available > ! interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fabric, > ! therefore TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3, and > REQ4. > > 4.2. Hybrid L2/L3 Designs > --- 621,631 ---- > Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M-LAG approach > totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast domain, that i= s > so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethernet based > ! solution. Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to solve the > this problem statement primarily based on the approaches outlined in > [RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of available > ! interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fabric. > ! Therefore, TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3, and > REQ4. > > 4.2. Hybrid L2/L3 Designs > *************** > *** 635,641 **** > in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and dividing the > Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains. This design has > allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of complexity in > ! the network managing multiple protocols. For the following reasons, > operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (Tier-3) or bot= h > access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the network: > > --- 635,641 ---- > in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and dividing the > Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains. This design has > allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of complexity in > ! the managing multiple network protocols. For the following reasons, > operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (Tier-3) or bot= h > access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the network: > > *************** > *** 644,650 **** > > o Seamless mobility for virtual machines that require the > preservation of IP addresses when a virtual machine moves to > ! different Tier-3 switch. > > o Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets are required for the > data center. > --- 644,650 ---- > > o Seamless mobility for virtual machines that require the > preservation of IP addresses when a virtual machine moves to > ! a different Tier-3 switch. > > o Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets are required for the > data center. > *************** > *** 679,686 **** > adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and larger size > Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network scalability > and stability. Application providers and network operators continue > ! to also develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements that > ! previously have driven large Layer 2 domains by using various overla= y > or tunneling techniques. > > 5. Routing Protocol Selection and Design > --- 679,686 ---- > adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and larger size > Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network scalability > and stability. Application providers and network operators continue > ! to develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements that > ! previously had driven large Layer 2 domains using various overlay > or tunneling techniques. > > 5. Routing Protocol Selection and Design > *************** > *** 700,706 **** > design. > > Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter-domain > ! routing on the Internet and has wide support from both vendor and > service provider communities, it is not generally deployed as the > primary routing protocol within the data center for a number of > reasons (some of which are interrelated): > --- 700,706 ---- > design. > > Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter-domain > ! routing in the Internet and has wide support from both vendor and > service provider communities, it is not generally deployed as the > primary routing protocol within the data center for a number of > reasons (some of which are interrelated): > *************** > *** 741,754 **** > state IGPs. Since every BGP router calculates and propagates onl= y > the best-path selected, a network failure is masked as soon as th= e > BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exists when highly > ! symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled with EBGP only > design. In contrast, the event propagation scope of a link-state > IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failure type. In this > way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4. It is also worth mentioning > that all widely deployed link-state IGPs feature periodic > ! refreshes of routing information, even if this rarely causes > ! impact to modern router control planes, while BGP does not expire > ! routing state. > > o BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved) next-hops. This > allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECMP based or > --- 741,754 ---- > state IGPs. Since every BGP router calculates and propagates onl= y > the best-path selected, a network failure is masked as soon as th= e > BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exists when highly > ! symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled with an EBGP only > design. In contrast, the event propagation scope of a link-state > IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failure type. In this > way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4. It is also worth mentioning > that all widely deployed link-state IGPs feature periodic > ! refreshes of routing information while BGP does not expire > ! routing state, although this rarely impacts modern router control > ! planes. > > o BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved) next-hops. This > allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECMP based or > *************** > *** 765,775 **** > controlled and complex unwanted paths will be ignored. See > Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN allocation scheme. I= n > a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal would require multi- > ! (instance/topology/processes) support, typically not available in > all DC devices and quite complex to configure and troubleshoot. > Using a traditional single flooding domain, which most DC designs > utilize, under certain failure conditions may pick up unwanted > ! lengthy paths, e.g. traversing multiple Tier-2 devices. > > o EBGP configuration that is implemented with minimal routing polic= y > is easier to troubleshoot for network reachability issues. In > --- 765,775 ---- > controlled and complex unwanted paths will be ignored. See > Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN allocation scheme. I= n > a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal would require multi- > ! (instance/topology/process) support, typically not available in > all DC devices and quite complex to configure and troubleshoot. > Using a traditional single flooding domain, which most DC designs > utilize, under certain failure conditions may pick up unwanted > ! lengthy paths, e.g., traversing multiple Tier-2 devices. > > o EBGP configuration that is implemented with minimal routing polic= y > is easier to troubleshoot for network reachability issues. In > *************** > *** 806,812 **** > loopback sessions are used even in the case of multiple links > between the same pair of nodes. > > ! o Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used so as to > avoid ASN conflicts. > > o A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos topology's Tier-1 > --- 806,812 ---- > loopback sessions are used even in the case of multiple links > between the same pair of nodes. > > ! o Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used to > avoid ASN conflicts. > > o A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos topology's Tier-1 > *************** > *** 815,821 **** > o A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2 devices in the > same cluster. > > ! o A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.g. ToR) in > this topology. > > > --- 815,821 ---- > o A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2 devices in the > same cluster. > > ! o A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.g., ToR) in > this topology. > > > *************** > *** 903,922 **** > > Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Octet ASNs > ([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASNs available, > ! see [IANA.AS]. Use of Four-Octet ASNs put additional protocol > ! complexity in the BGP implementation so should be considered against > the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4. Perhaps > more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP > implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC equipment. > ! When supported, ensure that implementations in use are able to remov= e > ! the Private Use ASNs if required for external connectivity > ! (Section 5.2.4). > > 5.2.3. Prefix Advertisement > > A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-point links and > associated prefixes. Advertising all of these routes into BGP may > ! create FIB overload conditions in the network devices. Advertising > these links also puts additional path computation stress on the BGP > control plane for little benefit. There are two possible solutions: > > --- 903,922 ---- > > Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Octet ASNs > ([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASNs available, > ! see [IANA.AS]. Use of Four-Octet ASNs puts additional protocol > ! complexity in the BGP implementation and should be balanced against > the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4. Perhaps > more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP > implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC equipment. > ! When supported, ensure that deployed implementations are able to > remove > ! the Private Use ASNs when external connectivity to these ASes is > ! required (Section 5.2.4). > > 5.2.3. Prefix Advertisement > > A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-point links and > associated prefixes. Advertising all of these routes into BGP may > ! create FIB overload in the network devices. Advertising > these links also puts additional path computation stress on the BGP > control plane for little benefit. There are two possible solutions: > > *************** > *** 925,951 **** > device, distant networks will automatically be reachable via the > advertising EBGP peer and do not require reachability to these > prefixes. However, this may complicate operations or monitoring: > ! e.g. using the popular "traceroute" tool will display IP addresse= s > that are not reachable. > > o Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize them on every > device. This requires an address allocation scheme such as > allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses per Tier-1 and > Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point interface addressing > ! to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplinks will be numbered out of Tier-= 1 > ! addressing and so forth). > > Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into BGP without > using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices. Summarizing > subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holing under a > ! single link failure (e.g. between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices) and > hence must be avoided. The use of peer links within the same tier t= o > resolve the black-holing problem by providing "bypass paths" is > undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mesh and waste o= f > ports on the devices. An alternative to the full-mesh of peer-links > ! would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g. a "ring" as described > in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and has very > ! limited bisection bandwidth, in addition requiring special tweaks to > > > > --- 925,951 ---- > device, distant networks will automatically be reachable via the > advertising EBGP peer and do not require reachability to these > prefixes. However, this may complicate operations or monitoring: > ! e.g., using the popular "traceroute" tool will display IP address= es > that are not reachable. > > o Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize them on every > device. This requires an address allocation scheme such as > allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses per Tier-1 and > Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point interface addressing > ! to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplink addresses will be allocated > ! from Tier-1 address blocks and so forth). > > Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into BGP without > using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices. Summarizing > subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holing under a > ! single link failure (e.g., between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices) and > hence must be avoided. The use of peer links within the same tier t= o > resolve the black-holing problem by providing "bypass paths" is > undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mesh and waste o= f > ports on the devices. An alternative to the full-mesh of peer-links > ! would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g., a "ring" as describe= d > in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and has very > ! limited bisectional bandwidth. Additionally requiring special tweaks > to > > > > *************** > *** 956,963 **** > > make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting every device into > an ASN on its own. Later in this document, Section 8.2 introduces a > ! less intrusive method for performing a limited form route > ! summarization in Clos networks and discusses it's associated trade- > offs. > > 5.2.4. External Connectivity > --- 956,963 ---- > > make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting every device into > an ASN on its own. Later in this document, Section 8.2 introduces a > ! less intrusive method for performing a limited form of route > ! summarization in Clos networks and discusses its associated trade- > offs. > > 5.2.4. External Connectivity > *************** > *** 972,985 **** > document. These devices have to perform a few special functions: > > o Hide network topology information when advertising paths to WAN > ! routers, i.e. remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996] from the AS_PATH > attribute. This is typically done to avoid ASN number collisions > between different data centers and also to provide a uniform > AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN ECMP to Anycast > prefixes originated in the topology. An implementation specific > BGP feature typically called "Remove Private AS" is commonly used > to accomplish this. Depending on implementation, the feature > ! should strip a contiguous sequence of Private Use ASNs found in > AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path to a neighbor. > This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data center numbering > are from the Private Use ranges. The process for stripping the > --- 972,985 ---- > document. These devices have to perform a few special functions: > > o Hide network topology information when advertising paths to WAN > ! routers, i.e., remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996] from the AS_PATH > attribute. This is typically done to avoid ASN number collisions > between different data centers and also to provide a uniform > AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN ECMP to Anycast > prefixes originated in the topology. An implementation specific > BGP feature typically called "Remove Private AS" is commonly used > to accomplish this. Depending on implementation, the feature > ! should strip a contiguous sequence of Private Use ASNs found in a= n > AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path to a neighbor. > This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data center numbering > are from the Private Use ranges. The process for stripping the > *************** > *** 998,1005 **** > to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resistance to a single- > link failure causing the black-holing of traffic. To prevent > black-holing in the situation when all of the EBGP sessions to th= e > ! WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given device it is more > ! desirable to take the "relaying" approach rather than introducing > the default route via complicated conditional route origination > schemes provided by some implementations [CONDITIONALROUTE]. > > --- 998,1005 ---- > to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resistance to a single- > link failure causing the black-holing of traffic. To prevent > black-holing in the situation when all of the EBGP sessions to th= e > ! WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given device, it is more > ! desirable to readvertise the default route rather than originatin= g > the default route via complicated conditional route origination > schemes provided by some implementations [CONDITIONALROUTE]. > > *************** > *** 1017,1023 **** > prefixes originated from within the data center in a fully routed > network design. For example, a network with 2000 Tier-3 devices wil= l > have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP, along with > ! the infrastructure or other prefixes. However, as discussed before, > the proposed network design does not allow for route summarization > due to the lack of peer links inside every tier. > > --- 1017,1023 ---- > prefixes originated from within the data center in a fully routed > network design. For example, a network with 2000 Tier-3 devices wil= l > have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP, along with > ! the infrastructure and link prefixes. However, as discussed before, > the proposed network design does not allow for route summarization > due to the lack of peer links inside every tier. > > *************** > *** 1028,1037 **** > o Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-mesh of physical > links or using any other "peer-mesh" topology, such as ring or > hub-and-spoke. Configure BGP accordingly on all Border Leafs to > ! exchange network reachability information - e.g. by adding a mesh > of IBGP sessions. The interconnecting peer links need to be > appropriately sized for traffic that will be present in the case > ! of a device or link failure underneath the Border Routers. > > o Tier-1 devices may have additional physical links provisioned > toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 devices from the > --- 1028,1037 ---- > o Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-mesh of physical > links or using any other "peer-mesh" topology, such as ring or > hub-and-spoke. Configure BGP accordingly on all Border Leafs to > ! exchange network reachability information, e.g., by adding a mesh > of IBGP sessions. The interconnecting peer links need to be > appropriately sized for traffic that will be present in the case > ! of a device or link failure in the mesh connecting the Border > Routers. > > o Tier-1 devices may have additional physical links provisioned > toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 devices from the > *************** > *** 1043,1049 **** > device compared with the other devices in the Clos. This also > reduces the number of ports available to "regular" Tier-2 switche= s > and hence the number of clusters that could be interconnected via > ! Tier-1 layer. > > If any of the above options are implemented, it is possible to > perform route summarization at the Border Routers toward the WAN > --- 1043,1049 ---- > device compared with the other devices in the Clos. This also > reduces the number of ports available to "regular" Tier-2 switche= s > and hence the number of clusters that could be interconnected via > ! the Tier-1 layer. > > If any of the above options are implemented, it is possible to > perform route summarization at the Border Routers toward the WAN > *************** > *** 1071,1079 **** > ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by a Clos > topology. Effectively, every lower-tier device will use all of its > directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traffic destined > ! to the same IP prefix. Number of ECMP paths between any two Tier-3 > devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the devices in the > ! middle stage (Tier-1). For example, Figure 5 illustrates the > topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach servers X and > Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1, 2, 3, and 4 > respectively. > --- 1071,1079 ---- > ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by a Clos > topology. Effectively, every lower-tier device will use all of its > directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traffic destined > ! to the same IP prefix. The number of ECMP paths between any two > Tier-3 > devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the devices in the > ! middle stage (Tier-1). For example, Figure 5 illustrates a > topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach servers X and > Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1, 2, 3, and 4 > respectively. > *************** > *** 1105,1116 **** > > The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementation must suppor= t > multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devices directly > ! attached at any point in the topology in upstream or downstream > direction. Normally, this number does not exceed half of the ports > found on a device in the topology. For example, an ECMP fan-out of > 32 would be required when building a Clos network using 64-port > devices. The Border Routers may need to have wider fan-out to be > ! able to connect to multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summarizatio= n > at Border Router level is implemented as described in Section 5.2.5. > If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP, logical link- > grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to provide > --- 1105,1116 ---- > > The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementation must suppor= t > multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devices directly > ! attached at any point in the topology in the upstream or downstream > direction. Normally, this number does not exceed half of the ports > found on a device in the topology. For example, an ECMP fan-out of > 32 would be required when building a Clos network using 64-port > devices. The Border Routers may need to have wider fan-out to be > ! able to connect to a multitude of Tier-1 devices if route > summarization > at Border Router level is implemented as described in Section 5.2.5. > If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP, logical link- > grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to provide > *************** > *** 1122,1131 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP followed by Layer 2 ECMP) to > compensate for fan-out limitations. Such approach, however, > increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entropy will be > ! available to the second stage of ECMP. > > Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from an ECMP > perspective if they match up to and including step (e) in > --- 1122,1131 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP coupled with Layer 2 ECMP) to > compensate for fan-out limitations. Such approach, however, > increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entropy will be > ! available at the second stage of ECMP. > > Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from an ECMP > perspective if they match up to and including step (e) in > *************** > *** 1148,1154 **** > perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have BGP paths wit= h > different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the same AS_PATH > attribute lengths. Therefore, BGP implementations must support load > ! sharing over above-mentioned paths. This feature is sometimes known > as "multipath relax" or "multipath multiple-as" and effectively > allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring ASNs if all > other attributes are equal as already described in the previous > --- 1148,1154 ---- > perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have BGP paths wit= h > different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the same AS_PATH > attribute lengths. Therefore, BGP implementations must support load > ! sharing over the above-mentioned paths. This feature is sometimes > known > as "multipath relax" or "multipath multiple-as" and effectively > allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring ASNs if all > other attributes are equal as already described in the previous > *************** > *** 1182,1199 **** > > It is often desirable to have the hashing function used for ECMP to > be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact on flow to > ! next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or removed to ECM= P > group. This could be used if the network device is used as a load > balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - in this case, > ! losing or adding a destination will not have detrimental effect of > currently established flows. One particular recommendation on > implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992], though > other implementations are possible. This functionality could be > naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact of the next- > hop changes being proportional to the weight of the given next-hop. > The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on hardware > ! resource utilization, as typically more space is required to > ! implement a consistent-hashing region. > > 7. Routing Convergence Properties > > --- 1182,1199 ---- > > It is often desirable to have the hashing function used for ECMP to > be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact on flow to > ! next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or removed to an > ECMP > group. This could be used if the network device is used as a load > balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - in this case, > ! losing or adding a destination will not have a detrimental effect on > currently established flows. One particular recommendation on > implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992], though > other implementations are possible. This functionality could be > naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact of the next- > hop changes being proportional to the weight of the given next-hop. > The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on hardware > ! resource utilization, as typically more resources (e.g., TCAM space) > ! are required to implement a consistent-hashing function. > > 7. Routing Convergence Properties > > *************** > *** 1209,1224 **** > driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes. The > proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the remaining > mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are BGP keep-alive > ! process (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link-failure > triggers. > > Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in high > ! convergence delays, in the order of multiple seconds (on many BGP > implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer value is > three seconds). However, many BGP implementations can shut down > local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "link down" event for > the outgoing interface used for BGP peering. This feature is > ! sometimes called as "fast fallover". Since links in modern data > centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connections, a > physical interface failure is often detected in milliseconds and > subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence. > --- 1209,1224 ---- > driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes. The > proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the remaining > mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are BGP keep-alive > ! time-out (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link-failur= e > triggers. > > Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in high > ! convergence delays, on the order of multiple seconds (on many BGP > implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer value is > three seconds). However, many BGP implementations can shut down > local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "link down" event for > the outgoing interface used for BGP peering. This feature is > ! sometimes called "fast fallover". Since links in modern data > centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connections, a > physical interface failure is often detected in milliseconds and > subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence. > *************** > *** 1236,1242 **** > > Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional Forwarding > Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failure detection > ! and fault signaling to the BGP process. However, use of either of > these presents additional requirements to vendor software and > possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1. Until recently with > [RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single member link > --- 1236,1242 ---- > > Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional Forwarding > Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failure detection > ! and fault signaling to the BGP process. However, the use of either = of > these presents additional requirements to vendor software and > possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1. Until recently with > [RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single member link > *************** > *** 1245,1251 **** > > 7.2. Event Propagation Timing > > ! In the proposed design the impact of BGP Minimum Route Advertisement > Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]) should be > considered. Per the standard it is required for BGP implementations > to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at least MRAI > --- 1245,1251 ---- > > 7.2. Event Propagation Timing > > ! In the proposed design the impact of the BGP Minimum Route > Advertisement > Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]) should be > considered. Per the standard it is required for BGP implementations > to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at least MRAI > *************** > *** 1258,1270 **** > In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has either one path > (Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-2 in the same > cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix, where N is = a > ! significantly large number, e.g. N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-out to the ne= xt > Tier). Therefore, if a link fails to another device from which a > ! path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g. from > perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 device), or > ! the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g. from perspectiv= e > of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch). In the former > ! case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate un-delayed and > trigger re-convergence on affected devices. In the latter case, the > best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group correspondin= g > to the new next-hop set changed. If the BGP path was the best-path > --- 1258,1270 ---- > In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has either one path > (Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-2 in the same > cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix, where N is = a > ! significantly large number, e.g., N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-out to the n= ext > Tier). Therefore, if a link fails to another device from which a > ! path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g., from t= he > perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 device), or > ! the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g., from perspecti= ve > of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch). In the former > ! case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate without delay a= nd > trigger re-convergence on affected devices. In the latter case, the > best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group correspondin= g > to the new next-hop set changed. If the BGP path was the best-path > *************** > *** 1279,1285 **** > situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device fails, the > Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upstream Tier-1 > devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes. The Tier-1 devices, in > ! turn, will relay those messages to all downstream Tier-2 devices > (except for the originator). Tier-2 devices other than the one > originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstream Tier-1 > > --- 1279,1285 ---- > situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device fails, the > Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upstream Tier-1 > devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes. The Tier-1 devices, in > ! turn, will relay these messages to all downstream Tier-2 devices > (except for the originator). Tier-2 devices other than the one > originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstream Tier-1 > > *************** > *** 1307,1313 **** > features that vendors include to reduce the control plane impact of > rapidly flapping prefixes. However, due to issues described with > false positives in these implementations especially under such > ! "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to turn this feature on i= n > this design. More background and issues with "route flap dampening" > and possible implementation changes that could affect this are well > described in [RFC7196]. > --- 1307,1313 ---- > features that vendors include to reduce the control plane impact of > rapidly flapping prefixes. However, due to issues described with > false positives in these implementations especially under such > ! "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to enable this feature in > this design. More background and issues with "route flap dampening" > and possible implementation changes that could affect this are well > described in [RFC7196]. > *************** > *** 1316,1324 **** > > A network is declared to converge in response to a failure once all > devices within the failure impact scope are notified of the event an= d > ! have re-calculated their RIB's and consequently updated their FIB's. > Larger failure impact scope typically means slower convergence since > ! more devices have to be notified, and additionally results in a less > stable network. In this section we describe BGP's advantages over > link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact scope for a > Clos topology. > --- 1316,1324 ---- > > A network is declared to converge in response to a failure once all > devices within the failure impact scope are notified of the event an= d > ! have re-calculated their RIBs and consequently updated their FIBs. > Larger failure impact scope typically means slower convergence since > ! more devices have to be notified, and results in a less > stable network. In this section we describe BGP's advantages over > link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact scope for a > Clos topology. > *************** > *** 1327,1335 **** > the best path from the point of view of the local router is sent to > neighbors. As such, some failures are masked if the local node can > immediately find a backup path and does not have to send any updates > ! further. Notice that in the worst case ALL devices in a data center > topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or update the > ! ECMP groups in the FIB. However, many failures will not result in > such a wide impact. There are two main failure types where impact > scope is reduced: > > --- 1327,1335 ---- > the best path from the point of view of the local router is sent to > neighbors. As such, some failures are masked if the local node can > immediately find a backup path and does not have to send any updates > ! further. Notice that in the worst case, all devices in a data cente= r > topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or update the > ! ECMP groups in their FIBs. However, many failures will not result i= n > such a wide impact. There are two main failure types where impact > scope is reduced: > > *************** > *** 1357,1367 **** > > o Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all Tier-2 devices > directly attached to the failed node will have to update their > ! ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from non-local cluster. The > Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in the re-convergence > process, but may receive "implicit withdraws" as described above. > > ! Even though in case of such failures multiple IP prefixes will have > to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that ALL of these > prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device. Therefore, in > the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, only a single > --- 1357,1367 ---- > > o Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all Tier-2 devices > directly attached to the failed node will have to update their > ! ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from a non-local cluster. The > Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in the re-convergence > process, but may receive "implicit withdraws" as described above. > > ! Even in the case of such failures, multiple IP prefixes will have > to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that ALL of these > prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device. Therefore, in > the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, only a single > *************** > *** 1375,1381 **** > possible with the proposed design, since using this technique may > create routing black-holes as mentioned previously. Therefore, the > worst control plane failure impact scope is the network as a whole, > ! for instance in a case of a link failure between Tier-2 and Tier-3 > devices. The amount of impacted prefixes in this case would be much > less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers of a Clos > network topology. The property of having such large failure scope i= s > --- 1375,1381 ---- > possible with the proposed design, since using this technique may > create routing black-holes as mentioned previously. Therefore, the > worst control plane failure impact scope is the network as a whole, > ! for instance in thecase of a link failure between Tier-2 and Tier-3 > devices. The amount of impacted prefixes in this case would be much > less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers of a Clos > network topology. The property of having such large failure scope i= s > *************** > *** 1384,1397 **** > > 7.5. Routing Micro-Loops > > ! When a downstream device, e.g. Tier-2 device, loses all paths for a > prefix, it normally has the default route pointing toward the > upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device. As a result, it is > ! possible to get in the situation when Tier-2 switch loses a prefix, > ! but Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 device, > ! which results in transient micro-loop, since Tier-1 switch will keep > passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 device, and > ! Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route. This > micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes the upstream > device to fully update its forwarding tables. > > --- 1384,1397 ---- > > 7.5. Routing Micro-Loops > > ! When a downstream device, e.g., Tier-2 device, loses all paths for = a > prefix, it normally has the default route pointing toward the > upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device. As a result, it is > ! possible to get in the situation where a Tier-2 switch loses a prefi= x, > ! but a Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 device= , > ! which results in transient micro-loop, since the Tier-1 switch will > keep > passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 device, and > ! the Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route. This > micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes the upstream > device to fully update its forwarding tables. > > *************** > *** 1402,1408 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! To minimize impact of the micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 switches ca= n > be configured with static "discard" or "null" routes that will be > more specific than the default route for prefixes missing during > network convergence. For Tier-2 switches, the discard route should > --- 1402,1408 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! To minimize the impact of such micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 > switches can > be configured with static "discard" or "null" routes that will be > more specific than the default route for prefixes missing during > network convergence. For Tier-2 switches, the discard route should > *************** > *** 1417,1423 **** > > 8.1. Third-party Route Injection > > ! BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e. directly attached, BGP speaker > to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meeting REQ5. > This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP session with some > or even all devices in the topology. Furthermore, BGP diverse path > --- 1417,1423 ---- > > 8.1. Third-party Route Injection > > ! BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e., directly attached, BGP speaker > to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meeting REQ5. > This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP session with some > or even all devices in the topology. Furthermore, BGP diverse path > *************** > *** 1427,1433 **** > implementation. Unfortunately, in many implementations ADD-PATH has > been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use cases it was > originally optimized for, which limits the "third-party" peering to > ! IBGP only, if the feature is used. > > To implement route injection in the proposed design, a third-party > BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, injecting the > --- 1427,1433 ---- > implementation. Unfortunately, in many implementations ADD-PATH has > been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use cases it was > originally optimized for, which limits the "third-party" peering to > ! IBGP only. > > To implement route injection in the proposed design, a third-party > BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, injecting the > *************** > *** 1442,1453 **** > As mentioned previously, route summarization is not possible within > the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network susceptible to > route black-holing under single link failures. The main problem is > ! the limited number of redundant paths between network elements, e.g. > there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 and Tier-3 > devices. However, some operators may find route aggregation > desirable to improve control plane stability. > > ! If planning on using any technique to summarize within the topology > modeling of the routing behavior and potential for black-holing > should be done not only for single or multiple link failures, but > > --- 1442,1453 ---- > As mentioned previously, route summarization is not possible within > the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network susceptible to > route black-holing under single link failures. The main problem is > ! the limited number of redundant paths between network elements, e.g.= , > there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 and Tier-3 > devices. However, some operators may find route aggregation > desirable to improve control plane stability. > > ! If any technique to summarize within the topology is planned, > modeling of the routing behavior and potential for black-holing > should be done not only for single or multiple link failures, but > > *************** > *** 1458,1468 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures if the > topology extends beyond a physical location. Simple modeling can be > done by checking the reachability on devices doing summarization > under the condition of a link or pathway failure between a set of > ! devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers if external > connectivity is present. > > Route summarization would be possible with a small modification to > --- 1458,1468 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures when the > topology extends beyond a physical location. Simple modeling can be > done by checking the reachability on devices doing summarization > under the condition of a link or pathway failure between a set of > ! devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers when external > connectivity is present. > > Route summarization would be possible with a small modification to > *************** > *** 1519,1544 **** > cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only a single pat= h > down to this prefix. It would require dual-homed servers to > accomplish that. Also note that this design is only resilient to > ! single link failure. It is possible for a double link failure to > isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specific Tier-3 > device, thus causing a routing black-hole. > > ! A result of the proposed topology modification would be reduction of > Tier-1 devices port capacity. This limits the maximum number of > attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the maximum DC > network size. A larger network would require different Tier-1 > devices that have higher port density to implement this change. > > Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link failures. Since > ! three are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the link > between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all traffic that wa= s > taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path. This will > ! result in doubling of link utilization on the remaining link. > > 8.2.2. Simple Virtual Aggregation > > A completely different approach to route summarization is possible, > ! provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB pressure, while > allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing information. > Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases multiple > prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the same set of the > --- 1519,1544 ---- > cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only a single pat= h > down to this prefix. It would require dual-homed servers to > accomplish that. Also note that this design is only resilient to > ! single link failures. It is possible for a double link failure to > isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specific Tier-3 > device, thus causing a routing black-hole. > > ! A result of the proposed topology modification would be a reduction = of > Tier-1 devices port capacity. This limits the maximum number of > attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the maximum DC > network size. A larger network would require different Tier-1 > devices that have higher port density to implement this change. > > Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link failures. Since > ! there are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the link > between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all traffic that wa= s > taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path. This will > ! result in doubling the link utilization of the remaining link. > > 8.2.2. Simple Virtual Aggregation > > A completely different approach to route summarization is possible, > ! provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB size, while > allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing information. > Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases multiple > prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the same set of the > *************** > *** 1550,1563 **** > [RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in the FIB, > ignoring more specific routes if they share the same next-hop set. > For example, under normal network conditions, only the default route > ! need to be programmed into FIB. > > Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with summary > ! prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's prefixes the > same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, and, by > induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different clusters. These > summary routes should still allow for more specific prefixes to leak > ! to Tier-1 devices, to enable for detection of mismatches in the next= - > hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-hop set for a > specific prefix. > > --- 1550,1563 ---- > [RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in the FIB, > ignoring more specific routes if they share the same next-hop set. > For example, under normal network conditions, only the default route > ! needs to be programmed into FIB. > > Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with summary > ! prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's prefixes, th= e > same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, and, by > induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different clusters. These > summary routes should still allow for more specific prefixes to leak > ! to Tier-1 devices, to enable detection of mismatches in the next- > hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-hop set for a > specific prefix. > > *************** > *** 1571,1584 **** > > > Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce the amount of > ! control plane state (i.e. BGP UPDATEs/BGP LocRIB sizing), but only > ! allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by spotting more specific > ! prefixes that share their next-hops with less specifics. > > 8.3. ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading > > This section discusses some operational aspects of not advertising > ! point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously outlined as an > option in Section 5.2.3. The operational impact of this decision > could be seen when using the well-known "traceroute" tool. > Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will be the link's > --- 1571,1585 ---- > > > Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce the amount of > ! control plane state (i.e., BGP UPDATEs/BGP Loc-RIB size), but only > ! allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by detecting more specifi= c > ! prefixes that share their next-hop set with a subsuming less specifi= c > ! prefix. > > 8.3. ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading > > This section discusses some operational aspects of not advertising > ! point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously identified as an > option in Section 5.2.3. The operational impact of this decision > could be seen when using the well-known "traceroute" tool. > Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will be the link's > *************** > *** 1587,1605 **** > complicated. > > One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS subsystem to > ! create the "reverse" entries for the IP addresses of the same device > ! pointing to the same name. The connectivity then can be made by > ! resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of the devices, e.g. > its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into BGP. > However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem, which may b= e > unavailable during an outage. > > Another option is to make the network device perform IP address > masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses of the > ! appropriate ICMP messages sent off of the device with the "primary" > IP address of the device. Specifically, the ICMP Destination > Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable) and ICMP Tim= e > ! Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are involved in proper working of > the "traceroute" tool. With this modification, the "traceroute" > probes sent to the devices will always be sent back with the > "primary" IP address as the source, allowing the operator to discove= r > --- 1588,1606 ---- > complicated. > > One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS subsystem to > ! create the "reverse" entries for these point-to-point IP addresses > pointing > ! to a the same name as the loopback address. The connectivity then > can be made by > ! resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of the devices, e.g.= , > its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into BGP. > However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem, which may b= e > unavailable during an outage. > > Another option is to make the network device perform IP address > masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses of the > ! appropriate ICMP messages sent by the device with the "primary" > IP address of the device. Specifically, the ICMP Destination > Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable) and ICMP Tim= e > ! Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are required for correct operation = of > the "traceroute" tool. With this modification, the "traceroute" > probes sent to the devices will always be sent back with the > "primary" IP address as the source, allowing the operator to discove= r > > Thanks, > Acee > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > --001a1141b26696bc01053153cfed Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,

Thank you very much for your r= eview.

Authors, could you please respond soon?=C2= =A0 I am hoping to get this out to IETF Last Call
by Thursday - a= nd on the telechat for May 19. =C2=A0 =C2=A0That depends on timely updates = from
the authors and shepherd.

Thanks,
Alia
=C2=A0


On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Ac= ee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate,
please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/a= rea/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last<= br> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc-09.txt
Reviewer: Acee Lindem
Review Date: 4/25/16
IETF LC End Date: Not started
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document is basically ready for publication, but has som= e minor
issues and nits that should be resolved prior to publication.

Comments:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document starts with the requirements for an MSDC routing= and then
provides an overview of Clos data topologies and data center network
design. This overview attempts to cover a lot of a material in a very
small amount of text. While not completely successful, the overview
provides a lot of good information and references. The bulk of the
document covers the usage of EBGP as the sole data center routing protocol<= br> and other aspects of the routing design including ECMP, summarization
issues, and convergence. These sections provide a very good guide for
using EBGP in a Clos data center and an excellent discussion of the
deployment issues (based on real deployment experience).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The technical content of the document is excellent. The reada= bility
could be improved by breaking up some of the run-on sentences and with the<= br> suggested editorial changes (see Nits below).


Major Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have no major issues with the document.

Minor Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 4.2: Can an informative reference be added for Direct= Server
Return (DSR)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2.4 and 7.4: Define precisely what is meant by &quo= t;scale-out"
topology somewhere in the document.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2.5: Can you add a backward reference to the discus= sion of
"lack of peer links inside every peer=E2=80=9D? Also, it would be good= to describe
how this would allow for summarization and under what failure conditions. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 7.4: Should you add a reference to
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-= pic-00.txt to the penultimate
paragraph in this section?

Nits:

***************
*** 143,149 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network stability so that a small group of people can e= ffectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support a significantly sized network.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimentation and extensive testing has shown that Externa= l BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routin= g protocol for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these type of data center applications.=C2=A0 This is i= n contrast with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more traditional DC designs, which may se simple tree t= opologies and
--- 143,149 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network stability so that a sall group of people can ef= fectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support a significantly sized network.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimentation and extensive testing have shown that Extern= al BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routin= g protocol for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these type of data center applications.=C2=A0 This is i= n contrast with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more traditional DC designs, which may use simple tree = topologies and
***************
*** 178,191 ****
=C2=A0 2.1.=C2=A0 Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary requirement when building an interconnectio= n network for
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwi= dth and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0latency requirements.=C2=A0 Until recently it was quite= common to see the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0majority of traffic entering and leaving the data cente= r, commonly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0referred to as "north-south" traffic.=C2=A0 T= raditional "tree" topologies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with hi= gh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0oversubscription ratios between the layers of the netwo= rk.=C2=A0 If more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling u= p" the network
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g. by upgrading the device's linecards or fa= brics or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replacing the device with one with higher port density.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Today many large-scale data centers host applications g= enerating
--- 178,191 ----
=C2=A0 2.1.=C2=A0 Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary requirement when building an interconnectio= n network for
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a large number of servers is to accommodate application band= width and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0latency requirements.=C2=A0 Until recently it was quite= common to see the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0majority of traffic entering and leaving the data cente= r, commonly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0referred to as "north-south" traffic.=C2=A0 T= raditional "tree" topologies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with hi= gh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0oversubscription ratios between the layers of the netwo= rk.=C2=A0 If more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling u= p" the network
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g., by upgrading the device's linecards or f= abrics or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replacing the device with one with higher port density.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Today many large-scale data centers host applications g= enerating
***************
*** 195,201 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters nee= ded by certain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications, or virtual machine migrations.=C2=A0 Scal= ing traditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands become= s either too
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g. po= rt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0density in a switch.

=C2=A0 2.2.=C2=A0 CAPEX Minimization
--- 195,201 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters nee= ded by certain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications, or virtual machine migrations.=C2=A0 Scal= ing traditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands become= s either too
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g., p= ort
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0density in a switch.

=C2=A0 2.2.=C2=A0 CAPEX Minimization
***************
*** 209,215 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Unifying all network elements, preferably using= the same hardware
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type or even the same device.=C2=A0 This allows= for volume pricing on
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and spar= ing costs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Driving costs down using competitive pressures,= by introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 multiple network equipment vendors.
--- 209,215 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Unifying all network elements, preferably using= the same hardware
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type or even the same device.=C2=A0 This allows= for volume pricing on
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and inve= ntory costs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Driving costs down using competitive pressures,= by introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 multiple network equipment vendors.
***************
*** 234,244 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0minimizes software issue-related failures.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) m= inimization is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reducing size of failure domains in the network.=C2=A0 Ether= net networks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast tra= ffic storms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that can have a dramatic impact on network performance = and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0availability.=C2=A0 The use of a fully routed design si= gnificantly reduces
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the size of the data plane failure domains - i.e. limits the= m to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lowest level in the network hierarchy.=C2=A0 However, s= uch designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduce the problem of distributed control plane fail= ures.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0observation calls for simpler and less control plane pr= otocols to
--- 234,244 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0minimizes software issue-related failures.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) m= inimization is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reducing the size of failure domains in the network.=C2=A0 E= thernet
networks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast tra= ffic storms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that can have a dramatic impact on network performance = and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0availability.=C2=A0 The use of a fully routed design si= gnificantly reduces
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the size of the data plane failure domains, i.e., limits the= m to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lowest level in the network hierarchy.=C2=A0 However, s= uch designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduce the problem of distributed control plane fail= ures.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0observation calls for simpler and less control plane pr= otocols to
***************
*** 253,259 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performed by network devices.=C2=A0 Traditionally, load= balancers are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding= path.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing = traffic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 demand.=C2=A0 A preferable solution would be able to scale l= oad balancing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distributing incoming traffic across these nodes.=C2=A0= In situations like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastru= cture itself
--- 253,259 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performed by network devices.=C2=A0 Traditionally, load= balancers are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding= path.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing = traffic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 demand.=C2=A0 A preferable solution would be able to scale t= he load
balancing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distributing incoming traffic across these nodes.=C2=A0= In situations like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastru= cture itself
***************
*** 305,311 ****
=C2=A0 3.1.=C2=A0 Traditional DC Topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the networking industry, a common design choice for = data centers
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 typically look like a (upside down) tree with redundant upli= nks and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/dis= tribution and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access layers (see Figure 1).=C2=A0 To accommodate band= width demands, each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has= higher port
--- 305,311 ----
=C2=A0 3.1.=C2=A0 Traditional DC Topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the networking industry, a common design choice for = data centers
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 typically look like an (upside down) tree with redundant upl= inks and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/dis= tribution and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access layers (see Figure 1).=C2=A0 To accommodate band= width demands, each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has= higher port
***************
*** 373,379 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, f= or example, [INTERCON]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and [ALFARES2008]).=C2=A0 This topology features an odd= number of stages
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of= uniform
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g. network switches with the same port count.=C2= =A0 Therefore,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and f= acilitates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ2.=C2=A0 See Figure 2 below for an example of a fold= ed 3-stage Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tr= acing a packet
--- 373,379 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, f= or example, [INTERCON]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and [ALFARES2008]).=C2=A0 This topology features an odd= number of stages
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of= uniform
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g., network switches with the same port count.= =C2=A0 Therefore,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and f= acilitates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ2.=C2=A0 See Figure 2 below for an example of a fold= ed 3-stage Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tr= acing a packet
***************
*** 460,466 ****
=C2=A0 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Scaling the Clos topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing netw= ork element
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port density or adding more stages, e.g. moving to a 5-stage= Clos, as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0illustrated in Figure 3 below:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-1 --- 460,466 ----
=C2=A0 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Scaling the Clos topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing netw= ork element
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port density or adding more stages, e.g., moving to a 5-stag= e Clos, as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0illustrated in Figure 3 below:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-1 ***************
*** 523,529 ****
=C2=A0 3.2.4.=C2=A0 Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a data center network size is small, it is possible = to reduce the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of Clos topology by a= factor
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of two.=C2=A0 To understand how this could be done, tak= e Tier-1 as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example.=C2=A0 Every Tier-2 device connects to a single= group of Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 If half of the ports on each of the Tier= -1 devices are not
--- 523,529 ----
=C2=A0 3.2.4.=C2=A0 Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a data center network size is small, it is possible = to reduce the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of a Clos topology by= a factor
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of two.=C2=A0 To understand how this could be done, tak= e Tier-1 as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example.=C2=A0 Every Tier-2 device connects to a single= group of Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 If half of the ports on each of the Tier= -1 devices are not
***************
*** 574,580 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free to= pology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0creation, typically utilizing variants of the tradition= al DC topology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 At the time, many DC sw= itches either did
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support Layer 3 routed protocols or supported it with ad= ditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0licensing fees, which played a part in the design choic= e.=C2=A0 Although
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0many enhancements have been made through the introducti= on of Rapid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of=
--- 574,580 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free to= pology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0creation, typically utilizing variants of the tradition= al DC topology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 At the time, many DC sw= itches either did
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support Layer 3 routing protocols or supported them with=
additional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0licensing fees, which played a part in the design choic= e.=C2=A0 Although
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0many enhancements have been made through the introducti= on of Rapid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of=
***************
*** 599,605 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as the backup for loop prevention.=C2=A0 The major down= sides of this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past= two in most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, lack of standards based implementation= s, and added
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 failure domain risk of keeping state between the devices.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It should be noted that building large, horizontally sc= alable, Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02 only networks without STP is possible recently throug= h the
--- 599,605 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as the backup for loop prevention.=C2=A0 The major down= sides of this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past= two in most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, lack of standards based implementation= s, and added
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the failure domain risk of syncing state between the devices= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It should be noted that building large, horizontally sc= alable, Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02 only networks without STP is possible recently throug= h the
***************
*** 621,631 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M= -LAG approach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast d= omain, that is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethern= et based
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solutions.=C2=A0 Later TRILL extensions have been proposed t= o solve the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this problem statement primarily based on the approache= s outlined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of a= vailable
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fa= bric,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 therefore TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3= , and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4.

=C2=A0 4.2.=C2=A0 Hybrid L2/L3 Designs
--- 621,631 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M= -LAG approach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast d= omain, that is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethern= et based
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution.=C2=A0 Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to= solve the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this problem statement primarily based on the approache= s outlined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of a= vailable
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fa= bric.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Therefore, TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ= 3, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4.

=C2=A0 4.2.=C2=A0 Hybrid L2/L3 Designs
***************
*** 635,641 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and= dividing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains.=C2=A0 Th= is design has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of co= mplexity in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network managing multiple protocols.=C2=A0 For the follo= wing reasons,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (T= ier-3) or both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the= network:

--- 635,641 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and= dividing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains.=C2=A0 Th= is design has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of co= mplexity in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the managing multiple network protocols.=C2=A0 For the follo= wing reasons,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (T= ier-3) or both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the= network:

***************
*** 644,650 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Seamless mobility for virtual machines that req= uire the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 preservation of IP addresses when a virtual mac= hine moves to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different Tier-3 switch.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets ar= e required for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data center.
--- 644,650 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Seamless mobility for virtual machines that req= uire the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 preservation of IP addresses when a virtual mac= hine moves to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a different Tier-3 switch.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets ar= e required for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data center.
***************
*** 679,686 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and = larger size
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network= scalability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and stability.=C2=A0 Application providers and network = operators continue
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to also develop new solutions to meet some of the requiremen= ts that
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 previously have driven large Layer 2 domains by using variou= s overlay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or tunneling techniques.

=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 Routing Protocol Selection and Design
--- 679,686 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and = larger size
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network= scalability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and stability.=C2=A0 Application providers and network = operators continue
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements th= at
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 previously had driven large Layer 2 domains using various ov= erlay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or tunneling techniques.

=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 Routing Protocol Selection and Design
***************
*** 700,706 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter= -domain
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 routing on the Internet and has wide support from both vendo= r and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service provider communities, it is not generally deplo= yed as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0primary routing protocol within the data center for a n= umber of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons (some of which are interrelated):
--- 700,706 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter= -domain
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 routing in the Internet and has wide support from both vendo= r and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service provider communities, it is not generally deplo= yed as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0primary routing protocol within the data center for a n= umber of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons (some of which are interrelated):
***************
*** 741,754 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 state IGPs.=C2=A0 Since every BGP router calcul= ates and propagates only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the best-path selected, a network failure is ma= sked as soon as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exis= ts when highly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled= with EBGP only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design.=C2=A0 In contrast, the event propagatio= n scope of a link-state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failur= e type.=C2=A0 In this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4.=C2=A0 It i= s also worth mentioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that all widely deployed link-state IGPs featur= e periodic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0refreshes of routing information, even if this = rarely causes
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact to modern router control planes, while B= GP does not expire
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing state.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved)= next-hops.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECM= P based or
--- 741,754 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 state IGPs.=C2=A0 Since every BGP router calcul= ates and propagates only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the best-path selected, a network failure is ma= sked as soon as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exis= ts when highly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled= with an EBGP only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design.=C2=A0 In contrast, the event propagatio= n scope of a link-state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failur= e type.=C2=A0 In this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4.=C2=A0 It i= s also worth mentioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that all widely deployed link-state IGPs featur= e periodic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0refreshes of routing information while BGP does= not expire
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing state, although this rarely impacts mod= ern router control
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0planes.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved)= next-hops.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECM= P based or
***************
*** 765,775 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controlled and complex unwanted paths will be i= gnored.=C2=A0 See
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN all= ocation scheme.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal wo= uld require multi-
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(instance/topology/processes) support, typicall= y not available in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all DC devices and quite complex to configure a= nd troubleshoot.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using a traditional single flooding domain, whi= ch most DC designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilize, under certain failure conditions may p= ick up unwanted
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lengthy paths, e.g. traversing multiple Tier-2 = devices.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 EBGP configuration that is implemented with min= imal routing policy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is easier to troubleshoot for network reachabil= ity issues.=C2=A0 In
--- 765,775 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controlled and complex unwanted paths will be i= gnored.=C2=A0 See
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN all= ocation scheme.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal wo= uld require multi-
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(instance/topology/process) support, typically = not available in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all DC devices and quite complex to configure a= nd troubleshoot.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using a traditional single flooding domain, whi= ch most DC designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilize, under certain failure conditions may p= ick up unwanted
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lengthy paths, e.g., traversing multiple Tier-2= devices.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 EBGP configuration that is implemented with min= imal routing policy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is easier to troubleshoot for network reachabil= ity issues.=C2=A0 In
***************
*** 806,812 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loopback sessions are used even in the case of = multiple links
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the same pair of nodes.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used= so as to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 avoid ASN conflicts.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos to= pology's Tier-1
--- 806,812 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loopback sessions are used even in the case of = multiple links
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the same pair of nodes.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used= to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 avoid ASN conflicts.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos to= pology's Tier-1
***************
*** 815,821 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2= devices in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same cluster.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.= g.=C2=A0 ToR) in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this topology.


--- 815,821 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2= devices in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same cluster.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.= g.,=C2=A0 ToR) in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this topology.


***************
*** 903,922 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Oc= tet ASNs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASN= s available,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see [IANA.AS].=C2=A0 Use of Four-Octet ASNs put additional protocol=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 complexity in the BGP implementation so should be considered= against
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4= .=C2=A0 Perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC= equipment.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When supported, ensure that implementations in use are able = to remove
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Private Use ASNs if required for external connectivity !=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Section 5.2.4).

=C2=A0 5.2.3.=C2=A0 Prefix Advertisement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-poi= nt links and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated prefixes.=C2=A0 Advertising all of these rou= tes into BGP may
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create FIB overload conditions in the network devices.=C2=A0= Advertising
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these links also puts additional path computation stres= s on the BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane for little benefit.=C2=A0 There are two p= ossible solutions:

--- 903,922 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Oc= tet ASNs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASN= s available,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see [IANA.AS].=C2=A0 Use of Four-Octet ASNs puts additional protoco= l
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 complexity in the BGP implementation and should be balanced = against
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4= .=C2=A0 Perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC= equipment.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When supported, ensure that deployed implementations are abl= e to
remove
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Private Use ASNs when external connectivity to these ASe= s is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required (Section 5.2.4).

=C2=A0 5.2.3.=C2=A0 Prefix Advertisement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-poi= nt links and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated prefixes.=C2=A0 Advertising all of these rou= tes into BGP may
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create FIB overload in the network devices.=C2=A0 Advertisin= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these links also puts additional path computation stres= s on the BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane for little benefit.=C2=A0 There are two p= ossible solutions:

***************
*** 925,951 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device, distant networks will automatically be = reachable via the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advertising EBGP peer and do not require reacha= bility to these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes.=C2=A0 However, this may complicate op= erations or monitoring:
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g. using the popular "traceroute" t= ool will display IP addresses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that are not reachable.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize t= hem on every
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device.=C2=A0 This requires an address allocati= on scheme such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses = per Tier-1 and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point int= erface addressing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplinks will be num= bered out of Tier-1
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addressing and so forth).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into= BGP without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices.= =C2=A0 Summarizing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holin= g under a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure (e.g. between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices)= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hence must be avoided.=C2=A0 The use of peer links with= in the same tier to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolve the black-holing problem by providing "byp= ass paths" is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mes= h and waste of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ports on the devices.=C2=A0 An alternative to the full-= mesh of peer-links
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g. a "ring&= quot; as described
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and h= as very
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 limited bisection bandwidth, in addition requiring special t= weaks to



--- 925,951 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device, distant networks will automatically be = reachable via the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advertising EBGP peer and do not require reacha= bility to these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes.=C2=A0 However, this may complicate op= erations or monitoring:
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g., using the popular "traceroute" = tool will display IP addresses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that are not reachable.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize t= hem on every
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device.=C2=A0 This requires an address allocati= on scheme such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses = per Tier-1 and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point int= erface addressing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplink addresses wi= ll be allocated
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from Tier-1 address blocks and so forth).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into= BGP without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices.= =C2=A0 Summarizing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holin= g under a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure (e.g., between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices= ) and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hence must be avoided.=C2=A0 The use of peer links with= in the same tier to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolve the black-holing problem by providing "byp= ass paths" is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mes= h and waste of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ports on the devices.=C2=A0 An alternative to the full-= mesh of peer-links
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g., a "ring= " as described
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and h= as very
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 limited bisectional bandwidth. Additionally requiring specia= l tweaks
to



***************
*** 956,963 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting ever= y device into
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an ASN on its own.=C2=A0 Later in this document, Sectio= n 8.2 introduces a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 less intrusive method for performing a limited form route !=C2=A0 =C2=A0 summarization in Clos networks and discusses it's associ= ated trade-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0offs.

=C2=A0 5.2.4.=C2=A0 External Connectivity
--- 956,963 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting ever= y device into
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an ASN on its own.=C2=A0 Later in this document, Sectio= n 8.2 introduces a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 less intrusive method for performing a limited form of route=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 summarization in Clos networks and discusses its associated = trade-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0offs.

=C2=A0 5.2.4.=C2=A0 External Connectivity
***************
*** 972,985 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document.=C2=A0 These devices have to perform a few spe= cial functions:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Hide network topology information when advertis= ing paths to WAN
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routers, i.e. remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996]= from the AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.=C2=A0 This is typically done to avoi= d ASN number collisions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between different data centers and also to prov= ide a uniform
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN E= CMP to Anycast
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes originated in the topology.=C2=A0 An i= mplementation specific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP feature typically called "Remove Priva= te AS" is commonly used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to accomplish this.=C2=A0 Depending on implemen= tation, the feature
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should strip a contiguous sequence of Private U= se ASNs found in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path= to a neighbor.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data = center numbering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are from the Private Use ranges.=C2=A0 The proc= ess for stripping the
--- 972,985 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document.=C2=A0 These devices have to perform a few spe= cial functions:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Hide network topology information when advertis= ing paths to WAN
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routers, i.e., remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996= ] from the AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.=C2=A0 This is typically done to avoi= d ASN number collisions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between different data centers and also to prov= ide a uniform
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN E= CMP to Anycast
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes originated in the topology.=C2=A0 An i= mplementation specific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP feature typically called "Remove Priva= te AS" is commonly used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to accomplish this.=C2=A0 Depending on implemen= tation, the feature
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should strip a contiguous sequence of Private U= se ASNs found in an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path= to a neighbor.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data = center numbering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are from the Private Use ranges.=C2=A0 The proc= ess for stripping the
***************
*** 998,1005 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resista= nce to a single-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 link failure causing the black-holing of traffi= c.=C2=A0 To prevent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 black-holing in the situation when all of the E= BGP sessions to the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given devi= ce it is more
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to take the "relaying" appr= oach rather than introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default route via complicated conditional r= oute origination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 schemes provided by some implementations [CONDI= TIONALROUTE].

--- 998,1005 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resista= nce to a single-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 link failure causing the black-holing of traffi= c.=C2=A0 To prevent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 black-holing in the situation when all of the E= BGP sessions to the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given devi= ce, it is more
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to readvertise the default route rath= er than originating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default route via complicated conditional r= oute origination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 schemes provided by some implementations [CONDI= TIONALROUTE].

***************
*** 1017,1023 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes originated from within the data center in a fu= lly routed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network design.=C2=A0 For example, a network with 2000 = Tier-3 devices will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP,= along with
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the infrastructure or other prefixes.=C2=A0 However, as disc= ussed before,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed network design does not allow for route su= mmarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to the lack of peer links inside every tier.

--- 1017,1023 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes originated from within the data center in a fu= lly routed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network design.=C2=A0 For example, a network with 2000 = Tier-3 devices will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP,= along with
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the infrastructure and link prefixes.=C2=A0 However, as disc= ussed before,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed network design does not allow for route su= mmarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to the lack of peer links inside every tier.

***************
*** 1028,1037 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-me= sh of physical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 links or using any other "peer-mesh" = topology, such as ring or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hub-and-spoke.=C2=A0 Configure BGP accordingly = on all Border Leafs to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange network reachability information - e.g= . by adding a mesh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of IBGP sessions.=C2=A0 The interconnecting pee= r links need to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriately sized for traffic that will be pr= esent in the case
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a device or link failure underneath the Bord= er Routers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Tier-1 devices may have additional physical lin= ks provisioned
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 dev= ices from the
--- 1028,1037 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-me= sh of physical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 links or using any other "peer-mesh" = topology, such as ring or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hub-and-spoke.=C2=A0 Configure BGP accordingly = on all Border Leafs to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange network reachability information, e.g.= , by adding a mesh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of IBGP sessions.=C2=A0 The interconnecting pee= r links need to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriately sized for traffic that will be pr= esent in the case
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a device or link failure in the mesh connect= ing the Border
Routers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Tier-1 devices may have additional physical lin= ks provisioned
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 dev= ices from the
***************
*** 1043,1049 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device compared with the other devices in the C= los.=C2=A0 This also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reduces the number of ports available to "= regular" Tier-2 switches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and hence the number of clusters that could be = interconnected via
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If any of the above options are implemented, it is poss= ible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perform route summarization at the Border Routers towar= d the WAN
--- 1043,1049 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device compared with the other devices in the C= los.=C2=A0 This also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reduces the number of ports available to "= regular" Tier-2 switches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and hence the number of clusters that could be = interconnected via
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Tier-1 layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If any of the above options are implemented, it is poss= ible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perform route summarization at the Border Routers towar= d the WAN
***************
*** 1071,1079 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by = a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology.=C2=A0 Effectively, every lower-tier device wi= ll use all of its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traf= fic destined
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the same IP prefix.=C2=A0 Number of ECMP paths between an= y two Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the de= vices in the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 middle stage (Tier-1).=C2=A0 For example, Figure 5 illustrat= es the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach = servers X and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1= , 2, 3, and 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0respectively.
--- 1071,1079 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by = a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology.=C2=A0 Effectively, every lower-tier device wi= ll use all of its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traf= fic destined
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the same IP prefix.=C2=A0 The number of ECMP paths betwee= n any two
Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the de= vices in the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 middle stage (Tier-1).=C2=A0 For example, Figure 5 illustrat= es a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach = servers X and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1= , 2, 3, and 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0respectively.
***************
*** 1105,1116 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementatio= n must support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devic= es directly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attached at any point in the topology in upstream or downstr= eam
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0direction.=C2=A0 Normally, this number does not exceed = half of the ports
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0found on a device in the topology.=C2=A0 For example, a= n ECMP fan-out of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A032 would be required when building a Clos network using= 64-port
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The Border Routers may need to have wide= r fan-out to be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to connect to multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at Border Router level is implemented as described in S= ection 5.2.5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP,= logical link-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to= provide
--- 1105,1116 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementatio= n must support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devic= es directly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attached at any point in the topology in the upstream or dow= nstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0direction.=C2=A0 Normally, this number does not exceed = half of the ports
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0found on a device in the topology.=C2=A0 For example, a= n ECMP fan-out of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A032 would be required when building a Clos network using= 64-port
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The Border Routers may need to have wide= r fan-out to be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to connect to a multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at Border Router level is implemented as described in S= ection 5.2.5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP,= logical link-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to= provide
***************
*** 1122,1131 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP followed by Laye= r 2 ECMP) to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compensate for fan-out limitations.=C2=A0 Such approach= , however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entrop= y will be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available to the second stage of ECMP.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from= an ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective if they match up to and including step (e) = in
--- 1122,1131 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP coupled with Lay= er 2 ECMP) to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compensate for fan-out limitations.=C2=A0 Such approach= , however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entrop= y will be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available at the second stage of ECMP.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from= an ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective if they match up to and including step (e) = in
***************
*** 1148,1154 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have = BGP paths with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the sa= me AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute lengths.=C2=A0 Therefore, BGP implementations= must support load
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sharing over above-mentioned paths.=C2=A0 This feature is so= metimes known
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as "multipath relax" or "multipath multi= ple-as" and effectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring= ASNs if all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other attributes are equal as already described in the = previous
--- 1148,1154 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have = BGP paths with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the sa= me AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute lengths.=C2=A0 Therefore, BGP implementations= must support load
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sharing over the above-mentioned paths.=C2=A0 This feature i= s sometimes
known
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as "multipath relax" or "multipath multi= ple-as" and effectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring= ASNs if all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other attributes are equal as already described in the = previous
***************
*** 1182,1199 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is often desirable to have the hashing function used= for ECMP to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact= on flow to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or remove= d to ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group.=C2=A0 This could be used if the network device i= s used as a load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - = in this case,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 losing or adding a destination will not have detrimental eff= ect of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently established flows.=C2=A0 One particular recom= mendation on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992= ], though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other implementations are possible.=C2=A0 This function= ality could be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact = of the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop changes being proportional to the weight of the giv= en next-hop.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on= hardware
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resource utilization, as typically more space is required to=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implement a consistent-hashing region.

=C2=A0 7.=C2=A0 Routing Convergence Properties

--- 1182,1199 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is often desirable to have the hashing function used= for ECMP to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact= on flow to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or remove= d to an
ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group.=C2=A0 This could be used if the network device i= s used as a load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - = in this case,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 losing or adding a destination will not have a detrimental e= ffect on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently established flows.=C2=A0 One particular recom= mendation on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992= ], though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other implementations are possible.=C2=A0 This function= ality could be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact = of the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop changes being proportional to the weight of the giv= en next-hop.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on= hardware
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resource utilization, as typically more resources (e.g., TCA= M space)
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are required to implement a consistent-hashing function.

=C2=A0 7.=C2=A0 Routing Convergence Properties

***************
*** 1209,1224 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes= .=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the rem= aining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are B= GP keep-alive
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 process (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link= -failure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0triggers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in = high
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 convergence delays, in the order of multiple seconds (on man= y BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer= value is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three seconds).=C2=A0 However, many BGP implementations= can shut down
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "li= nk down" event for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the outgoing interface used for BGP peering.=C2=A0 This= feature is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sometimes called as "fast fallover".=C2=A0 Since l= inks in modern data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connecti= ons, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0physical interface failure is often detected in millise= conds and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence.
--- 1209,1224 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes= .=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the rem= aining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are B= GP keep-alive
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 time-out (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and lin= k-failure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0triggers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in = high
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 convergence delays, on the order of multiple seconds (on man= y BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer= value is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three seconds).=C2=A0 However, many BGP implementations= can shut down
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "li= nk down" event for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the outgoing interface used for BGP peering.=C2=A0 This= feature is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sometimes called "fast fallover".=C2=A0 Since link= s in modern data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connecti= ons, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0physical interface failure is often detected in millise= conds and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence.
***************
*** 1236,1242 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional= Forwarding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failu= re detection
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and fault signaling to the BGP process.=C2=A0 However, use o= f either of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these presents additional requirements to vendor softwa= re and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1.=C2=A0 Until= recently with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single= member link
--- 1236,1242 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional= Forwarding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failu= re detection
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and fault signaling to the BGP process.=C2=A0 However, the u= se of either of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these presents additional requirements to vendor softwa= re and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1.=C2=A0 Until= recently with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single= member link
***************
*** 1245,1251 ****

=C2=A0 7.2.=C2=A0 Event Propagation Timing

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the proposed design the impact of BGP Minimum Route Adver= tisement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]= ) should be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered.=C2=A0 Per the standard it is required for B= GP implementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at leas= t MRAI
--- 1245,1251 ----

=C2=A0 7.2.=C2=A0 Event Propagation Timing

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the proposed design the impact of the BGP Minimum Route Advertisement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]= ) should be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered.=C2=A0 Per the standard it is required for B= GP implementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at leas= t MRAI
***************
*** 1258,1270 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has eith= er one path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-= 2 in the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix= , where N is a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 significantly large number, e.g.=C2=A0 N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-= out to the next
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier).=C2=A0 Therefore, if a link fails to another devi= ce from which a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g.= from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 = device), or
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g. from pe= rspective
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch).=C2= =A0 In the former
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate un-dela= yed and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger re-convergence on affected devices.=C2=A0 In th= e latter case, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group= corresponding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the new next-hop set changed.=C2=A0 If the BGP path = was the best-path
--- 1258,1270 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has eith= er one path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-= 2 in the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix= , where N is a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 significantly large number, e.g.,=C2=A0 N=3D32 (the ECMP fan= -out to the next
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier).=C2=A0 Therefore, if a link fails to another devi= ce from which a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g.= , from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 = device), or
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g., from p= erspective
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch).=C2= =A0 In the former
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate without= delay and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger re-convergence on affected devices.=C2=A0 In th= e latter case, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group= corresponding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the new next-hop set changed.=C2=A0 If the BGP path = was the best-path
***************
*** 1279,1285 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device = fails, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upst= ream Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes.=C2=A0 The T= ier-1 devices, in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 turn, will relay those messages to all downstream Tier-2 dev= ices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(except for the originator).=C2=A0 Tier-2 devices other= than the one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstrea= m Tier-1

--- 1279,1285 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device = fails, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upst= ream Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes.=C2=A0 The T= ier-1 devices, in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 turn, will relay these messages to all downstream Tier-2 dev= ices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(except for the originator).=C2=A0 Tier-2 devices other= than the one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstrea= m Tier-1

***************
*** 1307,1313 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features that vendors include to reduce the control pla= ne impact of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rapidly flapping prefixes.=C2=A0 However, due to issues= described with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0false positives in these implementations especially und= er such
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to turn= this feature on in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this design.=C2=A0 More background and issues with &quo= t;route flap dampening"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and possible implementation changes that could affect t= his are well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in [RFC7196].
--- 1307,1313 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features that vendors include to reduce the control pla= ne impact of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rapidly flapping prefixes.=C2=A0 However, due to issues= described with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0false positives in these implementations especially und= er such
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to enab= le this feature in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this design.=C2=A0 More background and issues with &quo= t;route flap dampening"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and possible implementation changes that could affect t= his are well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in [RFC7196].
***************
*** 1316,1324 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A network is declared to converge in response to a fail= ure once all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices within the failure impact scope are notified of= the event and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have re-calculated their RIB's and consequently updated = their FIB's.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Larger failure impact scope typically means slower conv= ergence since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more devices have to be notified, and additionally results i= n a less
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable network.=C2=A0 In this section we describe BGP&#= 39;s advantages over
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact= scope for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Clos topology.
--- 1316,1324 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A network is declared to converge in response to a fail= ure once all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices within the failure impact scope are notified of= the event and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have re-calculated their RIBs and consequently updated their= FIBs.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Larger failure impact scope typically means slower conv= ergence since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more devices have to be notified, and results in a less
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable network.=C2=A0 In this section we describe BGP&#= 39;s advantages over
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact= scope for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Clos topology.
***************
*** 1327,1335 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the best path from the point of view of the local route= r is sent to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0neighbors.=C2=A0 As such, some failures are masked if t= he local node can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately find a backup path and does not have to sen= d any updates
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 further.=C2=A0 Notice that in the worst case ALL devices in = a data center
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or= update the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ECMP groups in the FIB.=C2=A0 However, many failures will no= t result in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0such a wide impact.=C2=A0 There are two main failure ty= pes where impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope is reduced:

--- 1327,1335 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the best path from the point of view of the local route= r is sent to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0neighbors.=C2=A0 As such, some failures are masked if t= he local node can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately find a backup path and does not have to sen= d any updates
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 further.=C2=A0 Notice that in the worst case, all devices in= a data center
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or= update the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ECMP groups in their FIBs.=C2=A0 However, many failures will= not result in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0such a wide impact.=C2=A0 There are two main failure ty= pes where impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope is reduced:

***************
*** 1357,1367 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all T= ier-2 devices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directly attached to the failed node will have = to update their
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from non-local = cluster.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in t= he re-convergence
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process, but may receive "implicit withdra= ws" as described above.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Even though in case of such failures multiple IP prefixes wi= ll have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that = ALL of these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device.=C2= =A0 Therefore, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, on= ly a single
--- 1357,1367 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all T= ier-2 devices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directly attached to the failed node will have = to update their
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from a non-loca= l cluster.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in t= he re-convergence
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process, but may receive "implicit withdra= ws" as described above.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Even in the case of such failures, multiple IP prefixes will= have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that = ALL of these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device.=C2= =A0 Therefore, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, on= ly a single
***************
*** 1375,1381 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible with the proposed design, since using this tec= hnique may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0create routing black-holes as mentioned previously.=C2= =A0 Therefore, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worst control plane failure impact scope is the network= as a whole,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for instance in a case of a link failure between Tier-2 and = Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The amount of impacted prefixes in this = case would be much
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers = of a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network topology.=C2=A0 The property of having such lar= ge failure scope is
--- 1375,1381 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible with the proposed design, since using this tec= hnique may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0create routing black-holes as mentioned previously.=C2= =A0 Therefore, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worst control plane failure impact scope is the network= as a whole,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for instance in thecase of a link failure between Tier-2 and= Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The amount of impacted prefixes in this = case would be much
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers = of a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network topology.=C2=A0 The property of having such lar= ge failure scope is
***************
*** 1384,1397 ****

=C2=A0 7.5.=C2=A0 Routing Micro-Loops

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When a downstream device, e.g.=C2=A0 Tier-2 device, loses al= l paths for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix, it normally has the default route pointing towa= rd the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device.=C2=A0 = As a result, it is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possible to get in the situation when Tier-2 switch loses a = prefix,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 but Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 = device,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which results in transient micro-loop, since Tier-1 switch w= ill keep
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 d= evice, and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route.=C2= =A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes = the upstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device to fully update its forwarding tables.

--- 1384,1397 ----

=C2=A0 7.5.=C2=A0 Routing Micro-Loops

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When a downstream device, e.g.,=C2=A0 Tier-2 device, loses a= ll paths for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix, it normally has the default route pointing towa= rd the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device.=C2=A0 = As a result, it is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possible to get in the situation where a Tier-2 switch loses= a prefix,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 but a Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-= 2 device,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which results in transient micro-loop, since the Tier-1 swit= ch will
keep
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 d= evice, and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route= .=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes = the upstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device to fully update its forwarding tables.

***************
*** 1402,1408 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To minimize impact of the micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 swi= tches can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be configured with static "discard" or "= null" routes that will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more specific than the default route for prefixes missi= ng during
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network convergence.=C2=A0 For Tier-2 switches, the dis= card route should
--- 1402,1408 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To minimize the impact of such micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-= 1
switches can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be configured with static "discard" or "= null" routes that will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more specific than the default route for prefixes missi= ng during
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network convergence.=C2=A0 For Tier-2 switches, the dis= card route should
***************
*** 1417,1423 ****

=C2=A0 8.1.=C2=A0 Third-party Route Injection

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e. directly atta= ched, BGP speaker
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meet= ing REQ5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP sess= ion with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or even all devices in the topology.=C2=A0 Furthermore,= BGP diverse path
--- 1417,1423 ----

=C2=A0 8.1.=C2=A0 Third-party Route Injection

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e., directly att= ached, BGP speaker
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meet= ing REQ5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP sess= ion with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or even all devices in the topology.=C2=A0 Furthermore,= BGP diverse path
***************
*** 1427,1433 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, in many implementa= tions ADD-PATH has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use= cases it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally optimized for, which limits the "third-= party" peering to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBGP only, if the feature is used.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement route injection in the proposed design, a = third-party
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, i= njecting the
--- 1427,1433 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, in many implementa= tions ADD-PATH has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use= cases it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally optimized for, which limits the "third-= party" peering to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBGP only.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement route injection in the proposed design, a = third-party
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, i= njecting the
***************
*** 1442,1453 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As mentioned previously, route summarization is not pos= sible within
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network s= usceptible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0route black-holing under single link failures.=C2=A0 Th= e main problem is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limited number of redundant paths between network elemen= ts, e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 = and Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 However, some operators may find route a= ggregation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to improve control plane stability.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If planning on using any technique to summarize within the t= opology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modeling of the routing behavior and potential for blac= k-holing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be done not only for single or multiple link fai= lures, but

--- 1442,1453 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As mentioned previously, route summarization is not pos= sible within
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network s= usceptible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0route black-holing under single link failures.=C2=A0 Th= e main problem is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limited number of redundant paths between network elemen= ts, e.g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 = and Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 However, some operators may find route a= ggregation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to improve control plane stability.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If any technique to summarize within the topology is planned= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modeling of the routing behavior and potential for blac= k-holing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be done not only for single or multiple link fai= lures, but

***************
*** 1458,1468 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures if th= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology extends beyond a physical location.=C2=A0 Simp= le modeling can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0done by checking the reachability on devices doing summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0under the condition of a link or pathway failure betwee= n a set of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers if exter= nal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connectivity is present.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Route summarization would be possible with a small modi= fication to
--- 1458,1468 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures when = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology extends beyond a physical location.=C2=A0 Simp= le modeling can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0done by checking the reachability on devices doing summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0under the condition of a link or pathway failure betwee= n a set of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers when ext= ernal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connectivity is present.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Route summarization would be possible with a small modi= fication to
***************
*** 1519,1544 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only= a single path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0down to this prefix.=C2=A0 It would require dual-homed = servers to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accomplish that.=C2=A0 Also note that this design is on= ly resilient to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure.=C2=A0 It is possible for a double link = failure to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specifi= c Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device, thus causing a routing black-hole.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A result of the proposed topology modification would be redu= ction of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 devices port capacity.=C2=A0 This limits the max= imum number of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the ma= ximum DC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network size.=C2=A0 A larger network would require diff= erent Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices that have higher port density to implement this= change.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link fail= ures.=C2=A0 Since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 three are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the = link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all tr= affic that was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path.= =C2=A0 This will
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 result in doubling of link utilization on the remaining link= .

=C2=A0 8.2.2.=C2=A0 Simple Virtual Aggregation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A completely different approach to route summarization = is possible,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB pressure, w= hile
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing = information.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases mu= ltiple
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the sa= me set of the
--- 1519,1544 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only= a single path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0down to this prefix.=C2=A0 It would require dual-homed = servers to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accomplish that.=C2=A0 Also note that this design is on= ly resilient to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failures.=C2=A0 It is possible for a double link= failure to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specifi= c Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device, thus causing a routing black-hole.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A result of the proposed topology modification would be a re= duction of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 devices port capacity.=C2=A0 This limits the max= imum number of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the ma= ximum DC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network size.=C2=A0 A larger network would require diff= erent Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices that have higher port density to implement this= change.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link fail= ures.=C2=A0 Since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the = link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all tr= affic that was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path.= =C2=A0 This will
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 result in doubling the link utilization of the remaining lin= k.

=C2=A0 8.2.2.=C2=A0 Simple Virtual Aggregation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A completely different approach to route summarization = is possible,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB size, while=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing = information.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases mu= ltiple
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the sa= me set of the
***************
*** 1550,1563 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in = the FIB,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring more specific routes if they share the same ne= xt-hop set.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, under normal network conditions, only the = default route
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be programmed into FIB.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with = summary
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's = prefixes the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, = and, by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different cluste= rs.=C2=A0 These
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summary routes should still allow for more specific pre= fixes to leak
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to Tier-1 devices, to enable for detection of mismatches in = the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-= hop set for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific prefix.

--- 1550,1563 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in = the FIB,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring more specific routes if they share the same ne= xt-hop set.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, under normal network conditions, only the = default route
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 needs to be programmed into FIB.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with = summary
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's = prefixes, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, = and, by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different cluste= rs.=C2=A0 These
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summary routes should still allow for more specific pre= fixes to leak
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to Tier-1 devices, to enable detection of mismatches in the = next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-= hop set for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific prefix.

***************
*** 1571,1584 ****


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce t= he amount of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control plane state (i.e.=C2=A0 BGP UPDATEs/BGP LocRIB sizin= g), but only
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by spotting more = specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes that share their next-hops with less specifics.

=C2=A0 8.3.=C2=A0 ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section discusses some operational aspects of not = advertising
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously outlined= as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option in Section 5.2.3.=C2=A0 The operational impact o= f this decision
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be seen when using the well-known "tracerout= e" tool.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will b= e the link's
--- 1571,1585 ----


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce t= he amount of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control plane state (i.e.,=C2=A0 BGP UPDATEs/BGP Loc-RIB siz= e), but only
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by detecting more= specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes that share their next-hop set with a subsuming less= specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix.

=C2=A0 8.3.=C2=A0 ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section discusses some operational aspects of not = advertising
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously identifi= ed as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option in Section 5.2.3.=C2=A0 The operational impact o= f this decision
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be seen when using the well-known "tracerout= e" tool.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will b= e the link's
***************
*** 1587,1605 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complicated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS= subsystem to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create the "reverse" entries for the IP addresses = of the same device
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pointing to the same name.=C2=A0 The connectivity then can b= e made by
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of= the devices, e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into= BGP.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem= , which may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unavailable during an outage.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another option is to make the network device perform IP= address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses= of the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate ICMP messages sent off of the device with the &q= uot;primary"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP address of the device.=C2=A0 Specifically, the ICMP = Destination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable)= and ICMP Time
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are involved in proper work= ing of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the "traceroute" tool.=C2=A0 With this modifi= cation, the "traceroute"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probes sent to the devices will always be sent back wit= h the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"primary" IP address as the source, allowing = the operator to discover
--- 1588,1606 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complicated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS= subsystem to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create the "reverse" entries for these point-to-po= int IP addresses
pointing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to a the same name as the loopback address.=C2=A0 The connec= tivity then
can be made by
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of= the devices, e.g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into= BGP.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem= , which may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unavailable during an outage.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another option is to make the network device perform IP= address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses= of the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate ICMP messages sent by the device with the "= primary"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP address of the device.=C2=A0 Specifically, the ICMP = Destination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable)= and ICMP Time
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are required for correct op= eration of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the "traceroute" tool.=C2=A0 With this modifi= cation, the "traceroute"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probes sent to the devices will always be sent back wit= h the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"primary" IP address as the source, allowing = the operator to discover

Thanks,
Acee

_______________________________________________
rtgwg mailing list
rtgwg@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg

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boundary="_000_3F437107848A5140A6A19222EFFB34812015BB92PRNMBX012TheFac_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe X-FB-Internal: Safe X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-25_09:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc@ietf.org" , Routing ADs , Routing Directorate , Routing WG Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:14:30 -0000 --_000_3F437107848A5140A6A19222EFFB34812015BB92PRNMBX012TheFac_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWNlc3MsIHRoYW5rIHlvdSBzbyBtdWNoIGZvciBmaW5pc2hpbmcgdGhlIHJldmlldyENCg0KQWxp 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2016 03:44:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.73) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.182) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 04:44:50 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.171]) by SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:44:46 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Daniele Ceccarelli , " (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 Thread-Index: AdGe+Z/lFOzQc8O7SFSbqLe7ce8oewBPVp2Q Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 03:44:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48162BAB58@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48162BAB58@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.102.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE28C1FDBF6SZXEMA510MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.572035B5.0001, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.171, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 13ec358da34e7a7514b78fa91e4b7815 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp.all@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-mpls-tp-pw-over-bidir-lsp-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 03:44:59 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE28C1FDBF6SZXEMA510MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPkJSPGJyPg0KRGFuaWVs ZTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9 IkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij48c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE28C1FDBF6SZXEMA510MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 06:11:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C44112D173; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5JOT2DnDgEcK; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC37512D17D; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3RDBEcs021234; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:11:14 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (jplon-nat11.juniper.net [193.110.55.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3RDBDhV021201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:11:14 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:11:13 +0100 Message-ID: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdGghcVG0QuPS2RxQ6ajDKPyM64Rjw== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22286.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--13.416-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--13.416-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: LvJXpWO3uAjzLVZFOZrw3hes/RxhysDbFJFr2qlKix9V84HrPxCfbDMB KS/l5ik348guxdxp7TO00HTgX5ZI96z75DRX+d9kKWuiyZLRI4Bu/Xr6CKXiN/xsP7g8BleLFhM gncTYqyTh7zLZMPEJbrLJMDbAGS4OwyCE4EX8iMOVSBCoZUyqbEH7wsB5444wkzE2kM4b6Hpuh7 UAK5WmX+0P6ZIQeqxyPqcZsIcaC2CdVRGgWj1IHAXysW33GYMpJdXjF5ArCFcLBZEuqIL9Sj4hX W7B+PPhNqz0Lvapr6rKxo315+1VtjB9eXnpC3lIRy+94mWbR+YpWss5kPUFdFpbYq2f4jz+eYaA 2aCxgSsJeHUNn+b9lrhXEYVAE0l4KeLGzKm/w9IuLk8NfSpYetxWLypmYlZz5GbPjpDb1sPE7Fz k7PfDjBdhhvQ7ld2C5tlnPJX7htQO9fZKTjt+z4b9ftid8kBcecvjbu/xDjpOIo0O+5ZV4UacLe +k1sVAc3ZlcRIO231d/5IDJqMHBaoDZpNjSrDVaUe/i9AephMBZBplMxI/zhKCZ+Q6yB8qzlCux iVWkhq+FlZl9V5OTDKHOKZCvLKntJieP4rjvdkHTkHUtPYzxdZKsq3DGpalDYbe/PyX8gSVzyuc mj4bkROmces8inKL0hToAWgDRbky9zgULewwZohaKK0I26FpmyqQJWNsuklI7YhsiSUzzOkI/31 bQ36ScITNzcasX/7s+Reb+uzo944a2rhHAtuZdiLDwvWethjuHZGuwo6K7TDJ9a3KikGo13D6mx i/OuYhJ/ufappeEpGTpe1iiCJqtD9qpBlNF8oLbigRnpKlKSPzRlrdFGDw6dIq3kU8x87MeHyRk 1HQkZgHH98I/M9nflMu2qjc54JFZ6er+YR20Q== Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, ospf@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:11:20 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them before or along with any IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt Reviewer: Adrian Farrel Review Date: 27 April 2016 IETF LC End Date: 26 April 2016 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication. Comments: This is a simple document that doesn't require much to implement or understand. It was disappointing, however, to find a large number of small issues and nits. I don't believe any of these are blocking to the utility of the document and if it went for publication in its current state it would not be harmful. But in the interest of making our documents useful and accessible, and for the purpose of eliminating all possible interoperability and deployment, I think it would be valuable to clean up the issues I have listed. Major Issues: No major issues found. Minor Issues: I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is turned on and off)? In the second case there is a security implication as well. Can I DoS the routing system by toggling some BFD Reflectors? Needs text! You *do* have... A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. ...which is a help. --- Section 1 has This is achieved by using unique network-wide discriminators to identify the Network Targets (e.g., IP addresses). You may be aware of IPv6 :-) Although 2.1 gives some hints on the size of a discriminator, I had to go back to 5880 to check that *all* discriminators are exactly 4 octets. So saying "e.g., IP addresses" is at best confusing. BTW, draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base and draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-ip don't give any hints on this. Oh, and what is "network-wide"? I suggest... This is achieved by using four-octet discriminators as defined in [RFC5880] to identify the Network Targets. --- In Section 2 you have Upon receipt of the TLV, a router may decide to ignore this TLV or install the S-BFD discriminator in BFD Target Identifier Table. I think "ignore" is ambiguous. You need to be very clear that "ignore" means: - take no local action - retain the TLV in the opaque LSA - continue to advertise the opaque LSA according to its scope In Section 3 you also have A router not supporting the S-BFD Discriminator TLV will just silently ignore the TLV as specified in [RFC7770]. Am I missing something when I read 7770? I don't find anything about handling unknown TLVs. --- Section 2 para 3 s/superset/union/ ("superset" would allow you to include any other discriminators!) --- Section 2.1 To be totally unambiguous... OLD Length - Total length of the discriminator (Value field) in octets, not including the optional padding. The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV. NEW Length - Total length of all discriminator in the Value field in octets, not including the optional padding. The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV. END However (!) are you sure that you can include optional padding? I think that 7770 uses padding to take the V field up to a 4 octet boundary. Since all of your discriminators are exactly a multiple of 4 octets it seems that there will never be any padding and it would be less confusing to write... NEW Length - Total length of all discriminators in the TLV counted in octets. The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV. END --- At the end of section 2.1 you have S-BFD discriminator is associated with the BFD Target Identifier type, that allows demultiplexing to a specific task or service. This is a wonderfully throw-away statement with no context and no further explanation in the document that I could find. Maybe this is just missing a reference to another document, or maybe it needs some clarification. --- Section 2.2 has The flooding scope for S-BFD Discriminator information advertised through OSPF can be limited to one or more OSPF areas, or can be extended across the entire OSPF routing domain. Note that the S-BFD session may be required to pan multiple areas, in which case the flooding scope may comprise these areas. This could be the case for an ABR, for instance, advertising the S-BFD Discriminator information within the backbone area and/or a subset of its attached IGP area(s). As I understand flooding scope the options for Opaque LSAs (see 5250) are: o Link-state type-9 denotes a link-local scope. o Link-state type-10 denotes an area-local scope. o Link-state type-11 denotes that the LSA is flooded throughout the Autonomous System (AS). Your text seems to imply something different. In particular, you seem to be suggesting that I can have a scope that is greater than one area but less than the whole AS (assuming "whole AS" == "entire OSPF routing domain"). This needs re-writing to clarify what you want to achieve and to bring it in line with 5250. Note that the 4th para of Section 2.2 seems to have this right. === Nits Has Trilok's affiliation changed? -- Capitalise the document title --- Expand acronyms in the Abstract if they do not appear with an asterisk in http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt --- Throughout the text, expand acronyms on first use if they do not appear within http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt with an asterisk. --- Decide whether "discriminator" or "Discriminator" --- In 2.1 you have Value - S-BFD network target discriminator value or values. But there is no "Value" in the figure. --- 2.2 para 2 s/pan/span/ --- 2.2 In the case of domain- wide flooding, i.e., where the originator is sitting in a remote area, the mechanism described in section 5 of [RFC5250] should be used. s/should/SHOULD/? But if you mean should or SHOULD (not MUST), what are the exception cases? --- Thanks, Adrian From nobody Wed Apr 27 06:48:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EEB12D1D3; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 06:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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"rtg-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt Thread-Index: AdGghcVG0QuPS2RxQ6ajDKPyM64RjwABboyA Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:48:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.196] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "ospf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [OSPF] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZMpGbV8k91Bi; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6639F12D897; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x234.google.com with SMTP id bg3so24720763obb.1; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=3LUWr89eAlYU8cyk+HtK5hEciD2gqICxZp6UF++4xRM=; b=OHkL4AsMr23LRQ42GdMiPf07lqmqZBJvT5ZKoI9cXZUFFn/eUprdeit3p0JdgLRzNL Us9fdsOAptvCPvcsfMAPTh5gRzNMf3wNNk7exes9ulLRhlpfOn8gS1Wgsjt2oaQGNP5u JkKhCQsKiAjIuhuu7hTqqZBnA2PmhhuvEKQJKm0R6VloC0GU7HA/LElvn75DRmJE8WQt ZOd1I8YxqSp1ORH66QyvHNdz7Q9b2sEhuhOdPgLR7o4rRiRqJB+7oFvGK2s5JaKaFQ6v JEAmX4PqkCQekp37m86pa+fVyCkSM+/pEiE/XY9c414SHaBGo1uEu6zbD2LGpZAtH512 xb8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=3LUWr89eAlYU8cyk+HtK5hEciD2gqICxZp6UF++4xRM=; b=dL+BenesJPupoOlWLi0JYn+JUrcx0njwk61IxVpbkseauNtTc5hKELWWGRNWj3xj8o nxy/4Yzdr3zvz/HJk0OV0wXH63cEQvTOn6pl1WdacaiHLa/8DaIjlhsHcUxcSBUP5yyo sja/o6ofJY9W7i7VpvUxLBtGQGLLKK1O7DuxlC7lmaVzQrN+vSTRvHqO9ybtFDINNJXY umlZYV0DuEjczgEnLxJ9/f9bedqlziXa1Y2QFLN0nnAq8FzBFI+VhnpVrxtPcAbaAW+q RIPcj/DwLaTcqMVGtfd2JtRGcwOOxFYR25MrF7ezY1q5BKJXuoknvpVUIJpOXqGzaeQT ek7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWOs1wmnUo5o8z9kEmH+t7NyFZCxSr+QUgn4Icc9hhDLmPPYL2yYzPoMF5ms7g/HWdiRVxBnWz1/VuzsQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.62.6 with SMTP id u6mr4198103oer.35.1461771999660; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:46:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <735916399E11684EAF4EB4FB376B719551C1531B@szxema507-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <735916399E11684EAF4EB4FB376B719551C1338E@szxema507-mbs.china.huawei.com> <735916399E11684EAF4EB4FB376B719551C1531B@szxema507-mbs.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:46:39 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "Hejia (Jia)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015384bec856200531795035 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop.all@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:46:42 -0000 --089e015384bec856200531795035 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Jia, Thank you very much for your review. Regards, Alia On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Hejia (Jia) wrote: > Hello, > > > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts > > as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the > review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information > about > > the Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last > Call > > comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion > or by updating the draft. > > > > Document: draft-ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop-02.txt > > Reviewer: Jia He > > Review Date: 27 April 2016 > > IETF LC End Date: 29 April 2016 > > Intended Status: Standards Track > > > > Summary: > > > > This draft is clearly written and solves a specific issue. I think it is > ready for publication. > > > > Major Issues: > > None > > > > Nits: > > Through the whole draft > > s/topological constrains/topological constraints > > > > > > > > B.R. > > Jia > --089e015384bec856200531795035 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jia,

Thank you very much for your re= view.

Regards,
Alia

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10= :25 AM, Hejia (Jia) <hejia@huawei.com> wrote:

Hello,

=C2= =A0

I have bee= n selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing = Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts

=

as they pa= ss through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the review is to = provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about

=

the Routin= g Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/= wiki/RtgDir

=C2= =A0

Although t= hese comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be hel= pful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call

=

comments t= hat you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updati= ng the draft.

=C2= =A0

Document: = draft-ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop-02.txt

Reviewer: = Jia He

Review Dat= e: 27 April 2016

IETF LC En= d Date:=C2=A0 29 April 2016

Intended S= tatus: Standards Track

=C2= =A0

Summary:

=C2= =A0

This draft= is clearly written and solves a specific issue. I think it is ready for pu= blication.

=C2= =A0

Major Issu= es:

None

=C2= =A0

Nits:

Through th= e whole draft

s/topologi= cal constrains/topological constraints

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

B.R.

Jia=


--089e015384bec856200531795035-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 09:19:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BE512D51F; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWKtZveMIKG6; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 820CB12D190; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v145so21317271oie.0; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=7ajTFKxyQTyyg3qZheSROaqTFS7NQs9Ty5iRItjZRko=; b=xibVQZ2xOzIW+G59JZOBSmQR2FZUcGZKHzFQ2EUXP7oVv15G8GFuzrArefyFsasKYY mxorBulydEbyEFPPKFnE3GlIymLe2qEEwlmTmyh7UvgxLXHF8ns+CMszZl0HcZyJ5Rey H+0JB3Ufgr+1JBjpgc8azedgnRyBMCJyE4Zn7xnCS6Q016A7cjqZnWdyUVVDnOtldbD6 /4yrP8kkAHzFoZHJV5SPmnCIsyX8WwUNKFlmBsGbLTa+JL9SwqZNUgpg3eh0HoZCLSwS g3XdDotvVHz8J/vMb4/+bMcOMTMUJtRxIhroWCqhjPUrIkt2RAHy+1hwtIanjrov61af KNqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=7ajTFKxyQTyyg3qZheSROaqTFS7NQs9Ty5iRItjZRko=; b=JpCTOX1ywb/D6wxrPZrmBxE1xnuTeja9ZxGRM9jnUKZ/OXzH63ZoqFRFSlNQJZlLby eBPSgeHhiWir2jp+643Dpta+y/H8Zxcpr60KcfXgRyZqoJVKkcHjE2xgEAa0z4ZBAA9r bOQZ7NQnF2tzLYCbGIOYrZ7syCn6rt3ZGPGmDTpzAMisEjyr7nrZjF4mbLAK9lNc3DED aypoT66tMs3NVvpYP6kdvk6KMTysKHfW1m1QK+DTrCyvCmJuZ8bFlZEuXZgJstzG+uUX Xqxd64cc9Ok4e7Y4nGryzUWViC7UvHB7JxfJW73eM4+FgXy/RZ2LqGCAA4faK2p0IslM /gMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXLJkixQzXLasZqIBnnP/g9kCAr2C+AHFLnywvBk4FNsyq3lV54D1oddVwjcwAJiNp8aD5N1VP/+OWNvw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.45.81 with SMTP id v75mr4269589ota.85.1461773960618; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 12:19:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Adrian Farrel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e9f66aa5139053179c542 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org, OSPF List Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:19:25 -0000 --001a113e9f66aa5139053179c542 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Adrian, Thank you very much for the thorough review! Authors & Shepherd, Please go through and update this draft ASAP. It is on the IESG telechat on May 5 and is/will be reviewed very soon. Thanks, Alia On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts > as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special > request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing > ADs. > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them before or along with any IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt > Reviewer: Adrian Farrel > Review Date: 27 April 2016 > IETF LC End Date: 26 April 2016 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication. > > Comments: > > This is a simple document that doesn't require much to implement or > understand. It was disappointing, however, to find a large number of > small issues and nits. I don't believe any of these are blocking to > the utility of the document and if it went for publication in its > current state it would not be harmful. But in the interest of making > our documents useful and accessible, and for the purpose of eliminating > all possible interoperability and deployment, I think it would be > valuable to clean up the issues I have listed. > > Major Issues: > No major issues found. > > Minor Issues: > > I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on > OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to > store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in > LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is > turned on and off)? > > In the second case there is a security implication as well. Can I DoS > the routing system by toggling some BFD Reflectors? Needs text! > > You *do* have... > A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT > trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. > ...which is a help. > > --- > > Section 1 has > > This is achieved by using unique > network-wide discriminators to identify the Network Targets (e.g., IP > addresses). > > You may be aware of IPv6 :-) > > Although 2.1 gives some hints on the size of a discriminator, I had to > go back to 5880 to check that *all* discriminators are exactly 4 octets. > So saying "e.g., IP addresses" is at best confusing. > > BTW, draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base and draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-ip don't > give any hints on this. > > Oh, and what is "network-wide"? > > I suggest... > > This is achieved by using four-octet discriminators as defined in > [RFC5880] to identify the Network Targets. > > --- > > In Section 2 you have > Upon receipt of the TLV, a > router may decide to ignore this TLV or install the S-BFD > discriminator in BFD Target Identifier Table. > > I think "ignore" is ambiguous. You need to be very clear that "ignore" > means: > - take no local action > - retain the TLV in the opaque LSA > - continue to advertise the opaque LSA according to its scope > > In Section 3 you also have > A router not supporting the S-BFD Discriminator TLV will just > silently ignore the TLV as specified in [RFC7770]. > > Am I missing something when I read 7770? I don't find anything about > handling unknown TLVs. > > --- > > Section 2 para 3 > s/superset/union/ > ("superset" would allow you to include any other discriminators!) > > --- > > Section 2.1 > To be totally unambiguous... > OLD > Length - Total length of the discriminator (Value field) in octets, > not including the optional padding. The Length is a multiple of 4 > octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are > included in the TLV. > NEW > Length - Total length of all discriminator in the Value field in > octets, not including the optional padding. The Length is a multiple > of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are > included in the TLV. > END > > However (!) are you sure that you can include optional padding? I think > that 7770 uses padding to take the V field up to a 4 octet boundary. > Since all of your discriminators are exactly a multiple of 4 octets it > seems that there will never be any padding and it would be less > confusing to write... > > NEW > Length - Total length of all discriminators in the TLV counted in > octets. The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently > specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV. > END > > --- > > At the end of section 2.1 you have > > S-BFD discriminator is associated with the > BFD Target Identifier type, that allows demultiplexing to a specific > task or service. > > This is a wonderfully throw-away statement with no context and no > further explanation in the document that I could find. Maybe this is > just missing a reference to another document, or maybe it needs some > clarification. > > --- > > Section 2.2 has > > The flooding scope for S-BFD Discriminator information advertised > through OSPF can be limited to one or more OSPF areas, or can be > extended across the entire OSPF routing domain. > > Note that the S-BFD session may be required to pan multiple areas, in > which case the flooding scope may comprise these areas. This could > be the case for an ABR, for instance, advertising the S-BFD > Discriminator information within the backbone area and/or a subset of > its attached IGP area(s). > > As I understand flooding scope the options for Opaque LSAs (see 5250) > are: > > o Link-state type-9 denotes a link-local scope. > > o Link-state type-10 denotes an area-local scope. > > o Link-state type-11 denotes that the LSA is flooded throughout the > Autonomous System (AS). > > Your text seems to imply something different. In particular, you seem to > be suggesting that I can have a scope that is greater than one area but > less than the whole AS (assuming "whole AS" == "entire OSPF routing > domain"). > > This needs re-writing to clarify what you want to achieve and to bring > it in line with 5250. > > Note that the 4th para of Section 2.2 seems to have this right. > > === > > Nits > > Has Trilok's affiliation changed? > -- > Capitalise the document title > --- > Expand acronyms in the Abstract if they do not appear with an asterisk > in http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt > --- > Throughout the text, expand acronyms on first use if they do not appear > within http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt with an > asterisk. > --- > Decide whether "discriminator" or "Discriminator" > --- > In 2.1 you have > Value - S-BFD network target discriminator value or values. > But there is no "Value" in the figure. > --- > 2.2 para 2 > s/pan/span/ > --- > 2.2 > In the case of domain- > wide flooding, i.e., where the originator is sitting in a remote > area, the mechanism described in section 5 of [RFC5250] should be > used. > s/should/SHOULD/? > But if you mean should or SHOULD (not MUST), what are the exception > cases? > --- > > Thanks, > Adrian > > --001a113e9f66aa5139053179c542 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Adrian,

Thank you very much for the tho= rough review!

Authors & Shepherd,
Please go through and update this draft ASAP.=C2=A0 It is on t= he IESG telechat on May 5
and is/will be reviewed very soon.

Thanks,
Alia

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Adri= an Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a= s
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<= br> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing = ADs.
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rt= gDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them before or along with any IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
=C2=A0Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
=C2=A0Review Date: 27 April 2016
=C2=A0IETF LC End Date: 26 April 2016
=C2=A0Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
resolved before publication.

Comments:

This is a simple document that doesn't require much to implement or
understand.=C2=A0 It was disappointing, however, to find a large number of<= br> small issues and nits.=C2=A0 I don't believe any of these are blocking = to
the utility of the document and if it went for publication in its
current state it would not be harmful.=C2=A0 But in the interest of making<= br> our documents useful and accessible, and for the purpose of eliminating
all possible interoperability and deployment, I think it would be
valuable to clean up the issues I have listed.

Major Issues:
No major issues found.

Minor Issues:

I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on
OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to
store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in
LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is
turned on and off)?

In the second case there is a security implication as well. Can I DoS
the routing system by toggling some BFD Reflectors? Needs text!

You *do* have...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NO= T
=C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router.
...which is a help.

---

Section 1 has

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is achieved by using unique
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network-wide discriminators to identify the Network Targets (e= .g., IP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses).

You may be aware of IPv6 :-)

Although 2.1 gives some hints on the size of a discriminator, I had to
go back to 5880 to check that *all* discriminators are exactly 4 octets. So saying "e.g., IP addresses" is at best confusing.

BTW, draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base and draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-ip don't<= br> give any hints on this.

Oh, and what is "network-wide"?

I suggest...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is achieved by using four-octet discriminators as defined= in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5880] to identify the Network Targets.

---

In Section 2 you have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon receipt of the TLV, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router may decide to ignore this TLV or install the S-BFD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discriminator in BFD Target Identifier Table.

I think "ignore" is ambiguous. You need to be very clear that &qu= ot;ignore"
means:
- take no local action
- retain the TLV in the opaque LSA
- continue to advertise the opaque LSA according to its scope

In Section 3 you also have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A router not supporting the S-BFD Discriminator TLV will just<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0silently ignore the TLV as specified in [RFC7770].

Am I missing something when I read 7770? I don't find anything about handling unknown TLVs.

---

Section 2 para 3
s/superset/union/
("superset" would allow you to include any other discriminators!)=

---

Section 2.1
To be totally unambiguous...
OLD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Length - Total length of the discriminator (Value field) in oc= tets,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not including the optional padding.=C2=A0 The Length is a mult= iple of 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0included in the TLV.
NEW
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Length - Total length of all discriminator in the Value field = in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0octets, not including the optional padding.=C2=A0 The Length i= s a multiple
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminator= s are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0included in the TLV.
END

However (!) are you sure that you can include optional padding? I think
that 7770 uses padding to take the V field up to a 4 octet boundary.
Since all of your discriminators are exactly a multiple of 4 octets it
seems that there will never be any padding and it would be less
confusing to write...

NEW
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Length - Total length of all discriminators in the TLV counted= in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0octets.=C2=A0 The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and conseq= uently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV.
END

---

At the end of section 2.1 you have

=C2=A0 =C2=A0S-BFD discriminator is associated with the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD Target Identifier type, that allows demultiplexing to a sp= ecific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0task or service.

This is a wonderfully throw-away statement with no context and no
further explanation in the document that I could find. Maybe this is
just missing a reference to another document, or maybe it needs some
clarification.

---

Section 2.2 has

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The flooding scope for S-BFD Discriminator information adverti= sed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0through OSPF can be limited to one or more OSPF areas, or can = be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extended across the entire OSPF routing domain.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that the S-BFD session may be required to pan multiple ar= eas, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which case the flooding scope may comprise these areas.=C2=A0 = This could
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be the case for an ABR, for instance, advertising the S-BFD =C2=A0 =C2=A0Discriminator information within the backbone area and/or a su= bset of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its attached IGP area(s).

As I understand flooding scope the options for Opaque LSAs (see 5250)
are:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Link-state type-9 denotes a link-local scope.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Link-state type-10 denotes an area-local scope.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Link-state type-11 denotes that the LSA is flooded thr= oughout the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Autonomous System (AS).

Your text seems to imply something different. In particular, you seem to be suggesting that I can have a scope that is greater than one area but
less than the whole AS (assuming "whole AS" =3D=3D "entire O= SPF routing
domain").

This needs re-writing to clarify what you want to achieve and to bring
it in line with 5250.

Note that the 4th para of Section 2.2 seems to have this right.

=3D=3D=3D

Nits

Has Trilok's affiliation changed?
--
Capitalise the document title
---
Expand acronyms in the Abstract if they do not appear with an asterisk
in http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbre= v.expansion.txt
---
Throughout the text, expand acronyms on first use if they do not appear
within http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/a= bbrev.expansion.txt with an
asterisk.
---
Decide whether "discriminator" or "Discriminator"
---
In 2.1 you have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Value - S-BFD network target discriminator value or values. But there is no "Value" in the figure.
---
2.2 para 2
s/pan/span/
---
2.2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the case of domain-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0wide flooding, i.e., where the originator is sitting in a remo= te
=C2=A0 =C2=A0area, the mechanism described in section 5 of [RFC5250] should= be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0used.
s/should/SHOULD/?
But if you mean should or SHOULD (not MUST), what are the exception
cases?
---

Thanks,
Adrian


--001a113e9f66aa5139053179c542-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 11:34:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2911B12B03B; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzQDEfRg-oOB; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D84B12B004; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 11:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (24-247-68-31.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [24.247.68.31]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8BB576118C; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:34:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AA43EA6F-C0B1-4FE8-A33E-22FABBE743C1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:34:40 -0400 Message-Id: <4942DD46-2A03-4B3C-B36E-29A05B81177D@chopps.org> To: rtg-ads@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, padma.ietf@gmail.com, draft-ietf-ospf-ttz.all@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , ospf@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-ospf-ttz-03 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:34:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AA43EA6F-C0B1-4FE8-A33E-22FABBE743C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see = =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-ospf-ttz-03 Reviewer: Christian Hopps Review Date: April 26, 2016 IETF LC End Date: unknown Intended Status: Experimental Summary: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I have some concerns about this document and recommend that the Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. Comments: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D While I believe that the document is for the most part readable and understandable, I believe it still requires better or more = definitions, clarifications, and/or additional text before becoming an RFC. Major Issues: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [section "2. Terminology"] - An edge router is defined as a router with internal and external = adjacencies. (and referred to this way later in the text as well). Is this the = actual definition or is it instead when a router has links that are and are = not configured as TTZ internal? This makes a big difference b/c the = former case is very dynamic while the latter is static. One could imagine in the = former case that a router is configured to be within a TTZ and then by = virtue of who it becomes adjacent with determines whether it is internal or = edge. While this makes configuration very simple I think it also has a big = impact on the complexity of the protocol interactions. After reading section 11.1 "Configuring TTZ" which proposes "some = options for configuring a TTZ", it certainly seems that the intention is for = links to be determined to be within a TTZ or not based only on = configuration. If this is indeed the case I think this needs to be stated up front and = very clearly, and I would suggest changing all the text in "2. = Terminology" to talk about configuration instead of adjacencies. For example: "TTZ link or TTZ internal link: a link configured to be inside the = TTZ." "TTZ external link: a link not configured to be within a TTZ" "TTZ internal router: a router configured with only TTZ internal = links." "TTZ external router: a router with no configured TTZ internal = links" "TTZ edge router: a router configured with both TTZ internal and TTZ external links." [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 6 and 7] ... "The cost of the link is the cost of the shortest path from this = TTZ edge router to the other TTZ edge router within the TTZ." "In addition, the LSA may contain a third group of links, which are = the stub links for the loopback addresses inside the TTZ to be accessed by = nodes outside of the TTZ." - So basically every SPF from a TTZ internal topology change can lead = to new edge router LSAs being advertised throughout the area to adjust the = "virtual" routing link costs. This is noteworthy because while you've hidden = state using the TTZ, the dynamics of the network haven't gotten simpler = rather they've gotten more complex, as changes are now cascading rather than = being singular. This is an interesting trade-off choosing perpetual = run-time and protocol complexity in order to avoid the one time cost of new area = creation. Would it be worth actually pointing out these costs of using TTZ? [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 8] "To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router virtualizes the = TTZ in two steps. At first, the router updates its normal router LSA by adding = a point-to-point link to each of the other edge routers of the TTZ = and a stub link for each of the loopback addresses in the TTZ to be accessed = outside of the TTZ into the LSA. And then it removes the links configured = as TTZ links from its updated router LSA after sending its updated router = LSA and receiving the updated router LSAs originated by the other TTZ edge = routers for MaxLSAAdvTime or after sending its updated router LSA for MaxLSAGenAdvTime (refer to Appendix A)." In order to be sure I understood this I basically broke it apart and = put it together again with possibly incorrect reductions. I ended up with: To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router virtualizes the TTZ = in two steps: Step 1: The router updates its router LSA by adding a = point-to-point link to each of the other known edge routers in the TTZ, and also by = adding the stub links advertised by TTZ internal routers. Step 2: After RMaxLSAAdvTime (.1 seconds) or MaxLSAGenAdvTime (.3 = seconds) remove the TTZ links from its router LSA. [section "10. Computation of Routing Table" The text says to ignore *all* links from a TTZ edge routers router = LSA. This presumably works b/c the SPF is also going to use the advertised TTZ = Router LSA instead. Shouldn't the fact that the SPF should using the new TTZ = Router LSA be stated somewhere as well? Minor Issues: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [section: "Introduction" 2nd paragraph] The initial sentence makes an assertion about complexity and time consumption for area creation. The following sentence does not back = this assertion up but merely describes the act of creating a new area. I = found this less than compelling. [section: "2. Terminology"] This need not be addressed here but it's where I had the question: = Can a TTZ edge router be in more than one TTZ? [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 3rd paragraph ] "In addition to having the functions of an OSPF area", is this = actually the case? That is, is a TTZ really a superset of OSPF area = functionality? I'm pretty sure it is not. [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bullet 1] "o An OSPF TTZ is virtualized as the TTZ edges connected each = other." This is a very important bullet as it actually will describe what a = TTZ really is. As such I'd suggest more precise text here. For example: "o An OSPF TTZ represents a set of TTZ internal routers as a full = mesh of virtual links between the TTZ edge routers." ? [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bullet 2] "An OSPF TTZ receives the link state information about the topology outside of the TTZ, stores the information in the TTZ and = floods the information through the TTZ to the routers outside of the TTZ." This bullet is a bit clunky to read. Perhaps something more direct = like: "Non-TTZ link state information is handled as normal (i.e., it is not filtered or modified by a TTZ)" If you want to keep the original text then a couple nits: "An OSPF TTZ receives" =3D> "TTZ Routers receive" "stores the information in the TTZ and floods" =3D> "store the = information, and flood" [section: "6.1. General Format of TTZ LSA" paragraph 3] "A TTZ LSA having an optional TTZ Router TLV is called a TTZ Router = LSA. A TTZ LSA containing a TTZ Options TLV is called a TTZ Control LSA." Can these ever be combined? By naming them distinctly like this, it = seems to be exclusive, if this is the case that should probably be more = clearly defined. In general I think more expansion and clarity here is in order. = Instead of talking about LS Type 10/9 with a note about type 10. Why not discuss = each type: - LS Type 9 "Link local scope" when it is used, and what is optional = and mandatory in it. - LS Type 10 "Area scope" when it is used, and what is optional and = mandatory in it. [section "6.3. TTZ Router TLV" paragraph 1] "The format of a TTZ Router TLV is as follows. It contains the contents of a router LSA." Is this trying to say: "It has the same content as a standard OSPF Router LSA (RFC x-ref) = with the following modifications"? [section "6.3. TTZ Router TLV" TLV content] Given the existence of the TLV-Length, is the "# links" field = redundant? What happens if they correctly correlate? [section "6.4. TTZ Options TLV" "flags"] So "exclusive" =3D> "mutually exclusive"? If this is the case these aren't really flags but rather one of 4 = possible values (I believe in the all 0 case the TLV is not advertised?), and = if so it would be much better to simply define the 4 possible values using 2 = bits. What happens if more than one bit is set to 1? [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 3] This text can be read to indicate that for TTZ internal routers the = router's normal Router LSA content is copied into a TTZ Router TLV, does the = router also advertise its Router LSA as normal or is that then suppressed? = It's not clear to me why this information needs copying, and so I'm wondering = if the text is saying that no TTZ Router TLV is included, and that the TTZ = internal router just advertises it's regular OSPF Router LSA. The text could be more explicit. Also some of my confusion stems from = earlier defining a "TTZ Router LSA" as one containing an "optional TTZ Router = TLV". So when the text here refers to the LSA as a TTZ Router LSA one might = assume that the optional TTZ Router TLV must be present. Perhaps this gets back to my want for better separating and defining the LS Types and contents. [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 4 and 9] "After receiving a trigger to migrate to TTZ such as a TTZ LSA with flag M =3D 1, a TTZ edge router originates its normal router LSA for virtualizing a TTZ, which comprises three groups of links in = general." "To roll back from a TTZ smoothly after receiving a trigger to roll back from TTZ, ..." - Triggers are mentioned a few times throughout the text. I think the triggers meaning, rather than being initially implied, should be = explicit defined early and in 1 location. It isn't until section 11.2 that I = thought I understood what triggers were and how they worked. Actually the triggers are defined in section 6.4, but the text = there never actually uses the word "trigger". I suggest that this be changed so = that it is clear what a trigger is prior to the use of the term. [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 2] "If two ends of the link have different TTZ IDs, no TTZ adjacency = over the link will be "formed"." - In general I'm somewhat confused about the actual definition of a = TTZ adjacency. How does it compare to a normal protocol adjacency. In = the above case you would have a protocol adjacency I believe, but no TTZ = adjacency? How is this link advertised if the router is a TTZ edge router? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 5] The text talks about when (Z=3D=3D0 and there is a TTZ LSA with T=3D1) = or Z=3D=3D1. Where are all the places that T=3D1 is showing up? What about the case when = an adjacency is forming when M=3D1 instead of T=3D1? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 7] Since the diagram state Zs are the same, it no longer applies to the = rest of section 8. Is it worthwhile to have a new diagram here for clarity? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 8] Here's a mention of "triggers B to migrate", I think you probably = should state explicitly what this means, which I *think* is: "A also sends a D-LSA containing a TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1 to B, = triggering it to migrate." Although this now makes me wonder what does B do on receiving M=3D1 = if it had not received or been configured for T=3D1 yet? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 9] I would break this paragraph up to make clear that 2 distinct things = are happening based on 2 different events. So: "When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they have the same TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ LSAs it has = and starts to migrate to TTZ after receiving A's D-LSA with M=3D1. After migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed." becomes: "When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they have the same TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ LSAs it = has." "When B receives the D-LSA from A with M=3D1 it starts to migrate to = TTZ. After migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed." Does "starts to migrate" here simply means B starts setting it's M=3D1 = as well? What exactly is happening for B to go from "starts to migrate" to = "After migration"? I believe this is indicated by Z=3D0 transitioning to Z=3D1= (is the TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1 also removed from the D-LSA?) What LSAs are being updated and advertised by B here? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 10] "After receiving B's D-LSA with Z=3D1, A updates and sends B its = D-LSA by removing the Options TLV. It also updates and advertises its LSAs as needed." What LSAs are being updated and advertised by A here? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" in general] Are D-LSA sent periodically, if so how often, if not when precisely = are they sent? What happens when B changes its TTZ ID or doesn't send a D-LSA? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" Broadcast and NBMA part (i.e., = paragraph 11+)] [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 12] So the mis-configured router behavior is dependent on when the = mis-configured router is introduced? If introduced prior to any adjacency formation = then its presence will keep all routers from becoming TTZ adjacent, otherwise = only itself will not have become TTZ adjacent? What does mis-configured mean, a different TTZ ID? What about the = lack of the receipt of a D-LSA on the link? How long does the DR wait for receipt = of a D-LSA from each neighbor before deciding it won't be receiving one = and the neighbor is not configured on this link as part of TTZ? [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" last paragraph] Is this just saying: "routers only TTZ discover after forming a = normal adjacency"? [section "9.1. Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph 2] "Any network LSA generated for a broadcast or NBMA network in a TTZ = is advertised within the TTZ." [nit: And not outside? This is explicit for the router LSA.] What happens when a DR has a mis-configured router on a broadcast = network and thus is not forming a TTZ adjacency with it? It still has a normal = adjacency right? So it no has a network LSA that includes both TTZ and non-TTZ = routers where does it advertise this network LSA? [section "11.2. Smooth Migration to TTZ" paragraph 5] I was confused by many mentions earlier in the document to a router = migrating to a TTZ. I think what paragraph 5 in section 11.2 is saying (in too = many words) is this: "Migrating to a TTZ" means a router advertises a TTZ Control TLV with = M=3D1. A router "Migrates to a TTZ" either when configured to do so or when it receives a TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1. If this is the case then I think something like the above text should = occur earlier in the document. [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 3] I don't understand the intent of this paragraph. Is it just saying = that if TTZ is configured on a link between 2 non-adjacent routers, when they eventually become adjacent they will also form a TTZ adjacency? [section "13. Security Considerations"] This seems a bit weak or perhaps just wrong. Perhaps better would be = to say that TTZ relies on the OSPF security mechanisms in place and has the = same security threat surface? Nits: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [section: "2. Terminology" 3rd item] "TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ without any TTZ internal link." =3D> "TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ that has no TTZ internal links." [section: "2. Terminology" 4th item] Move below 5th item that it references [section "4. Requirements" 1st paragraph] - "*A* Topology-Transparent Zone" - "for *a* TTZ" [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 1st paragraph ] Define and use TTZ ID, rather than just "(ID)" as that is what the = rest of the document refers to this as, and is more specific anyway. [section "5.2. Some Details on TTZ" paragraph 4] "Note that none of the TTZ internal routers can be an ABR." =3D> "Note that by definition a TTZ internal router cannot also be an = ABR." [section "6.4. TTZ Options TLV" paragraph 2] "as needed" =3D> "as described below"? [section "6.5. Link Scope TTZ LSA" diagram and paragraph 1] "Options TLV" =3D> "TTZ Options TLV" (and all other uses?) [section "8. Establishing Adjacencies"] "This section describes the adjacencies in different cases." =3D> "This section describes the TTZ adjacencies." [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" multiple paragraphs] "discover TTZ each other" =3D> "TTZ discover each other" [various section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" ...] Text uses =3D and =3D=3D but in both cases it = means equality check, not assignment, pick and use one consistently in the document. On the use of parenthesis, the text is using parenthesis as a form of grouping as one might in mathematics which I'm not sure is proper. Parenthesis in writing are generally used as an aside. Probably the = clearest way to indicate the logical grouping would be to use a list, e.g., When one of the following conditions is met. - Z =3D 0 and there is a TTZ Options LSA with T =3D 1 - Z =3D 1 ... [section "9.1. Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph 1] "advertised within" =3D> "advertised only within" [section "11.1. Configuring TTZ" last paragraph] "the above one" =3D> "option 1" [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 1] "When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P link to a TTZ router (say T1) working as TTZ and there is a normal adjacency between them over the link, a user can configure TTZ on two ends of the link to add R1 into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. They discover TTZ each other with the TTZ as described in section 8." =3D> "When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P link to a = migrated TTZ router (say T1), and there is a normal adjacency between them over = the link, a user can configure TTZ on both ends of the link to add R1 into the = TTZ to which T1 belongs. They TTZ discover each other as described in = section 8." [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 2] "When a number of non TTZ routers are connected via a broadcast link to a TTZ router (say T1) working as TTZ and there are normal adjacencies among them, a user configures TTZ on the connection to the link on every router to add the non TTZ routers into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. The DR for the link "forms" TTZ adjacencies with the other routers connected to the link if they all have the same TTZ ID configured for the link. This is determined through the discovery process described in section 8." =3D> "When non TTZ routers are connected via a broadcast or NBMA link to a migrated TTZ router (say T1), and there are normal adjacencies among = them, a user configures TTZ on the connection to the link on every router to = add the non TTZ routers into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. The DR for the link = "forms" TTZ adjacencies with the other routers connected to the link if they = all have the same TTZ ID configured for the link. This is determined through = the TTZ discovery process described in section 8." [section "12.2. Implementation Experience"] Convert IETF 90 to (or include) a date. [section "14. IANA Considerations"] While not requested in the text, a new registry needs to be created = for the management of TTZ TLV types and so information regarding this new = registry in addition to the initial seed values is required. --Apple-Mail=_AA43EA6F-C0B1-4FE8-A33E-22FABBE743C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXIQZAAAoJEC4dgw7XuDAlFmMP/iA1d6+Bzj4tq8Ya1T27Uxy9 jbthZiXkRqUlStqeSkYwJnmpE+JidjEHhznhlKFW4B2ulZ1Kyj8l8AlhADqdSbdB F+p/JaRqsD8YxxTS0S6pNhj7suquucg4RAStz4VSJT4gRk63b/4lzUJOumZuNSmA MDUzRV/L5ud/Weo8ykaJt4ydzIKwL371j/GgouJatVypz9M3QrQE3bEGx7NpX+sY ZJlehaHqgyYPJsni4NI+G0wK2OzdCFOPXgGtLObVj/OVjYk5vYrp2i7pdzyIgpl0 b8eOFJrPwRUmxj7VAspYhSSlz0cyN5ctRDIZLJPmIdC3BYbZV95yU7j1/QLtto0l N5vLvoJsorFCIM563cCNDKP9wLA518/zzHmzCkXu0NcTw//Q4DIv1Pf9aWo26KEa co3vXuVsyndO8Nh4T9F+jurPP77xho47vnHMCqmFkf9MBWfwD4sia0cIjMuXEt9N NK18XmOXuSdG2KWl/i/aHLq9HHox4exjgGyi7iH/i25VzxD+z8zro2YSmtHzeole 54FyeB1sEyp09b5Ip6zcYZiVeuQEFF+FidRbl45h5xP1e+VwQbjYwlI4z0shqsyF fOWdgUXPAAjt6RQWp5puHiy99vRBvAYBMKx8iwjry+MBK4DHwwrBRUw8hZNKbazS PTbrmjtTeUpn9d6WphFD =aii+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AA43EA6F-C0B1-4FE8-A33E-22FABBE743C1-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 11:49:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B8112D53F; 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27 Apr 2016 18:49:15 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (xch-rtp-016.cisco.com [64.101.220.156]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3RInEdC021482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:49:14 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (64.101.220.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:49:13 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:49:13 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Adrian Farrel Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt Thread-Index: AdGghcVG0QuPS2RxQ6ajDKPyM64RjwAUT+OA Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:49:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.150.49.220] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_08D97DD0-416C-475B-A688-8AF18C8487DB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" , "ospf@ietf.org" , "" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [OSPF] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:49:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_08D97DD0-416C-475B-A688-8AF18C8487DB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6E9438C2-5966-491C-BDE0-649B62BD6399" --Apple-Mail=_6E9438C2-5966-491C-BDE0-649B62BD6399 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Adrian, Many thanks for the thorough review! Please see inline. Will post a new = revision momentarily. > On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Farrel = wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this = draft. The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on = special > request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the = Routing ADs. > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir >=20 > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, = it > would be helpful if you could consider them before or along with any = IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them = through > discussion or by updating the draft. >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt > Reviewer: Adrian Farrel > Review Date: 27 April 2016 > IETF LC End Date: 26 April 2016 > Intended Status: Standards Track >=20 > Summary: > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication. >=20 > Comments: >=20 > This is a simple document that doesn't require much to implement or > understand. It was disappointing, however, to find a large number of > small issues and nits. I don't believe any of these are blocking to > the utility of the document and if it went for publication in its > current state it would not be harmful. But in the interest of making > our documents useful and accessible, and for the purpose of = eliminating > all possible interoperability and deployment, I think it would be > valuable to clean up the issues I have listed. >=20 > Major Issues: > No major issues found. >=20 > Minor Issues: >=20 > I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact = on > OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to > store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in > LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is > turned on and off)? >=20 > In the second case there is a security implication as well. Can I DoS > the routing system by toggling some BFD Reflectors? Needs text! >=20 > You *do* have... > A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT > trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. > ...which is a help. I don=E2=80=99t disagree with this comment theoretically, but at the = same time, trying to find the right words=E2=80=A6 if any. We talk about = SPF computation churn as you mention, but documents don=E2=80=99t = describe implications of say, changing an IP address on a node. This = usage is not too dissimilar from other RI uses, and I could not find = scaling text to contrast against either. There is no reason for S-BFD discriminators to change =E2=80=94 = frequently, or at all. The information that nodes may store is the discriminators, or they may = choose to not store it. An S-BFD reflector is not expected to be = constantly configured on/off/on/off, and if its configuration state is = toggled continuously maliciously, there=E2=80=99s really a lot worst = things than this extra advertisement. Most of that does not seem to be needed explicitly in the document. So, net-net, I do not see the need to update this. >=20 > --- >=20 > Section 1 has >=20 > This is achieved by using unique > network-wide discriminators to identify the Network Targets (e.g., = IP > addresses). >=20 Yes, this can be improved, see below. > You may be aware of IPv6 :-) >=20 > Although 2.1 gives some hints on the size of a discriminator, I had to > go back to 5880 to check that *all* discriminators are exactly 4 = octets. > So saying "e.g., IP addresses" is at best confusing. >=20 > BTW, draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base and draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-ip don't > give any hints on this. >=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base-09#section-2 = =E2=80=9C o S-BFD discriminator - a BFD discriminator allocated for a local entity and is being listened by an SBFDReflector. " > Oh, and what is "network-wide"? >=20 > I suggest... >=20 > This is achieved by using four-octet discriminators as defined in > [RFC5880] to identify the Network Targets. >=20 This suggestion drops a key-most consideration, =E2=80=9Cunique=E2=80=9D. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base-09#section-4.1 = I=E2=80=99ll reword to: This is achieved by using four-octet discriminators, unique within an administrative domain, to identify the Network Targets. > --- >=20 > In Section 2 you have > Upon receipt of the TLV, a > router may decide to ignore this TLV or install the S-BFD > discriminator in BFD Target Identifier Table. >=20 > I think "ignore" is ambiguous. You need to be very clear that "ignore" > means: > - take no local action > - retain the TLV in the opaque LSA > - continue to advertise the opaque LSA according to its scope >=20 The =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D is in reference of what follows, which is = install the discriminator. In this case, ignore means =E2=80=98or = don=E2=80=99t install it=E2=80=99. I agree this can be improved :-) I=E2=80=99ll just remove =E2=80=9Cto = ignore this TLV or=E2=80=9D, since may install it (or may not). > In Section 3 you also have > A router not supporting the S-BFD Discriminator TLV will just > silently ignore the TLV as specified in [RFC7770]. >=20 > Am I missing something when I read 7770? I don't find anything about > handling unknown TLVs. >=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7770#section-2.3 = " Unrecognized types are ignored. " > --- >=20 > Section 2 para 3 > s/superset/union/ > ("superset" would allow you to include any other discriminators!) >=20 OK. > --- >=20 > Section 2.1 > To be totally unambiguous... > OLD > Length - Total length of the discriminator (Value field) in octets, > not including the optional padding. The Length is a multiple of 4 > octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are > included in the TLV. > NEW > Length - Total length of all discriminator in the Value field in > octets, not including the optional padding. The Length is a = multiple > of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many Discriminators are > included in the TLV. > END >=20 > However (!) are you sure that you can include optional padding? I = think > that 7770 uses padding to take the V field up to a 4 octet boundary. > Since all of your discriminators are exactly a multiple of 4 octets it > seems that there will never be any padding and it would be less > confusing to write... >=20 > NEW > Length - Total length of all discriminators in the TLV counted in > octets. The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently > specifies how many Discriminators are included in the TLV. > END >=20 Indeed, and we had fixed this one in our working copy. This is what we = have: Length - Total length of the discriminator(s) that appear in the Value field, in octets. Each discriminator is 4 octets, so the Length is 4 times the number of discriminators included in the TLV. There is no optional padding for this field. > --- >=20 > At the end of section 2.1 you have >=20 > S-BFD discriminator is associated with the > BFD Target Identifier type, that allows demultiplexing to a specific > task or service. >=20 > This is a wonderfully throw-away statement with no context and no > further explanation in the document that I could find. Maybe this is > just missing a reference to another document, or maybe it needs some > clarification. >=20 Old, and should have been removed. Good catch!!! Removed. > --- >=20 > Section 2.2 has >=20 > The flooding scope for S-BFD Discriminator information advertised > through OSPF can be limited to one or more OSPF areas, or can be > extended across the entire OSPF routing domain. >=20 > Note that the S-BFD session may be required to pan multiple areas, = in > which case the flooding scope may comprise these areas. This could > be the case for an ABR, for instance, advertising the S-BFD > Discriminator information within the backbone area and/or a subset = of > its attached IGP area(s). >=20 > As I understand flooding scope the options for Opaque LSAs (see 5250) > are: >=20 > o Link-state type-9 denotes a link-local scope. >=20 > o Link-state type-10 denotes an area-local scope. >=20 > o Link-state type-11 denotes that the LSA is flooded throughout the > Autonomous System (AS). >=20 > Your text seems to imply something different. In particular, you seem = to > be suggesting that I can have a scope that is greater than one area = but > less than the whole AS (assuming "whole AS" =3D=3D "entire OSPF = routing > domain"). >=20 > This needs re-writing to clarify what you want to achieve and to bring > it in line with 5250. >=20 > Note that the 4th para of Section 2.2 seems to have this right. >=20 You are right. Seems like removing the first two paragraphs of that = section suffice to remove the problem, and keep the goal in a concise = form. > =3D=3D=3D >=20 > Nits >=20 All nits incorporated =E2=80=94 thanks! With only one comment below. > Has Trilok's affiliation changed? Updated. > -- > Capitalise the document title > --- > Expand acronyms in the Abstract if they do not appear with an asterisk > in http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt > --- > Throughout the text, expand acronyms on first use if they do not = appear > within http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt with = an > asterisk. > --- > Decide whether "discriminator" or "Discriminator" > --- > In 2.1 you have > Value - S-BFD network target discriminator value or values. > But there is no "Value" in the figure. > --- > 2.2 para 2 > s/pan/span/ > --- > 2.2 > In the case of domain- > wide flooding, i.e., where the originator is sitting in a remote > area, the mechanism described in section 5 of [RFC5250] should be > used. > s/should/SHOULD/? > But if you mean should or SHOULD (not MUST), what are the exception > cases? The intention is not to close the door for future exception cases, = without listing them here necessarily. I am personally OK with should or SHOULD, and tempted to leave = =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D, but happy to take guidance on this. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > --- >=20 > Thanks, > Adrian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail=_6E9438C2-5966-491C-BDE0-649B62BD6399 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi, Adrian,

Many thanks for the thorough review! Please see inline. Will = post a new revision momentarily.

On = Apr 27, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>= wrote:

Hello,

I have been selected as = the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing= Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is = to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
For more = information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the = use of the Routing ADs, it
would be helpful if you could = consider them before or along with any IETF
Last Call = comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
Review Date: 27 = April 2016
IETF LC End Date: 26 April 2016
= Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary: =
I have some minor concerns about this document that I = think should be
resolved before publication.

Comments:

This = is a simple document that doesn't require much to implement or
understand.  It was disappointing, however, to find a = large number of
small issues and nits.  I don't = believe any of these are blocking to
the utility of the = document and if it went for publication in its
current = state it would not be harmful.  But in the interest of making
our documents useful and accessible, and for the purpose of = eliminating
all possible interoperability and deployment, = I think it would be
valuable to clean up the issues I = have listed.

Major Issues:
No = major issues found.

Minor Issues:

I should like to see some small amount of text = on the scaling impact on
OSPF. 1. How much additional = information will implementations have to
store per = node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in
LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the = Reflector is
turned on and off)?

In the second case there is a security implication as well. = Can I DoS
the routing system by toggling some BFD = Reflectors? Needs text!

You *do* have...
  A change in information in the S-BFD = Discriminator TLV MUST NOT
  trigger any SPF = computation at a receiving router.
...which is a help.

I = don=E2=80=99t disagree with this comment theoretically, but at the same = time, trying to find the right words=E2=80=A6 if any. We talk about SPF = computation churn as you mention, but documents don=E2=80=99t describe = implications of say, changing an IP address on a node. This usage is not = too dissimilar from other RI uses, and I could not find scaling text to = contrast against either.

There is no = reason for S-BFD discriminators to change =E2=80=94 frequently, or at = all.

The information that nodes may = store is the discriminators, or they may choose to not store it. An = S-BFD reflector is not expected to be constantly configured = on/off/on/off, and if its configuration state is toggled continuously = maliciously, there=E2=80=99s really a lot worst things than this extra = advertisement.

Most of that does not = seem to be needed explicitly in the document.

So, net-net, I do not see the need to update = this.


---

Section 1 has

  This = is achieved by using unique
  network-wide = discriminators to identify the Network Targets (e.g., IP
=   addresses).


Yes, = this can be improved, see below.

You may be = aware of IPv6 :-)

Although 2.1 gives some = hints on the size of a discriminator, I had to
go back to = 5880 to check that *all* discriminators are exactly 4 octets.
So saying "e.g., IP addresses" is at best confusing.

BTW, draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base and = draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-ip don't
give any hints on = this.


=E2=80=9C
   o =  S-BFD discriminator - a BFD discriminator allocated for a = local
      entity and is being = listened by an SBFDReflector.
"

Oh, and what is "network-wide"?

I = suggest...

  This is achieved by = using four-octet discriminators as defined in
=   [RFC5880] to identify the Network Targets.


This = suggestion drops a key-most consideration, =E2=80=9Cunique=E2=80=9D.
=

I=E2=80=99ll reword = to:

  This is achieved by using = four-octet discriminators, unique within
  an = administrative domain, to identify the Network Targets.

---

In Section 2 = you have
  Upon receipt of the TLV, a
  router may decide to ignore this TLV or install = the S-BFD
  discriminator in BFD Target = Identifier Table.

I think "ignore" is = ambiguous. You need to be very clear that "ignore"
means:- take no local action
- retain the TLV in the = opaque LSA
- continue to advertise the opaque LSA = according to its scope


The = =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D is in reference of what follows, which is = install the discriminator. In this case, ignore means =E2=80=98or = don=E2=80=99t install it=E2=80=99.

I = agree this can be improved :-) I=E2=80=99ll just remove =E2=80=9Cto = ignore this TLV or=E2=80=9D, since may install it (or may not).

In Section 3 you also have
  A = router not supporting the S-BFD Discriminator TLV will just
=   silently ignore the TLV as specified in [RFC7770].

Am I missing something when I read 7770? I = don't find anything about
handling unknown TLVs.


"=
   Unrecognized types are = ignored.
"

---

Section 2 para 3
s/superset/union/  
("superset" would allow you to include any other = discriminators!)


OK.

---

Section 2.1
To be totally unambiguous...
OLD
  Length - Total length of the = discriminator (Value field) in octets,
  not = including the optional padding.  The Length is a multiple of 4
  octets, and consequently specifies how many = Discriminators are
  included in the TLV.
NEW
  Length - Total length of all = discriminator in the Value field in
  octets, = not including the optional padding.  The Length is a multiple
  of 4 octets, and consequently specifies how many = Discriminators are
  included in the TLV.
END

However (!) are you sure = that you can include optional padding? I think
that 7770 = uses padding to take the V field up to a 4 octet boundary.
Since all of your discriminators are exactly a multiple of 4 = octets it
seems that there will never be any padding and = it would be less
confusing to write...

NEW
  Length - Total length of all = discriminators in the TLV counted in
  octets. =  The Length is a multiple of 4 octets, and consequently
  specifies how many Discriminators are included = in the TLV.
END


Indeed,= and we had fixed this one in our working copy. This is what we = have:

<t>
Length = - Total length of the discriminator(s) that appear in the
Value field, in octets. Each discriminator is 4 octets, so = the Length
is 4 times the number of discriminators = included in the TLV. There is
no optional padding for this = field.
</t>


---

At the end of section 2.1 = you have

  S-BFD discriminator = is associated with the
  BFD Target Identifier = type, that allows demultiplexing to a specific
=   task or service.

This is a = wonderfully throw-away statement with no context and no
further explanation in the document that I could find. Maybe = this is
just missing a reference to another document, or = maybe it needs some
clarification.


Old, = and should have been removed. Good catch!!! Removed.

---

Section 2.2 has

  The flooding scope for S-BFD = Discriminator information advertised
  through = OSPF can be limited to one or more OSPF areas, or can be
=   extended across the entire OSPF routing domain.

  Note that the S-BFD session may = be required to pan multiple areas, in
  which = case the flooding scope may comprise these areas.  This could
  be the case for an ABR, for instance, = advertising the S-BFD
  Discriminator = information within the backbone area and/or a subset of
=   its attached IGP area(s).

As I = understand flooding scope the options for Opaque LSAs (see 5250)
are:

  o =  Link-state type-9 denotes a link-local scope.

  o  Link-state type-10 denotes an area-local = scope.

  o  Link-state = type-11 denotes that the LSA is flooded throughout the
=      Autonomous System (AS).

Your text seems to imply something different. In particular, = you seem to
be suggesting that I can have a scope that is = greater than one area but
less than the whole AS (assuming = "whole AS" =3D=3D "entire OSPF routing
domain").

This needs re-writing to clarify what you want = to achieve and to bring
it in line with 5250.

Note that the 4th para of Section 2.2 seems to = have this right.


You = are right. Seems like removing the first two paragraphs of that section = suffice to remove the problem, and keep the goal in a concise = form.

=3D=3D=3D

Nits


All nits incorporated =E2=80=94 thanks! With only = one comment below.

Has Trilok's affiliation = changed?

Updated.

--
Capitalise the document title
---
Expand acronyms in the Abstract if they do not appear with an = asterisk
in http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt---
Throughout the text, expand acronyms on = first use if they do not appear
within http://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt = with an
asterisk.
---
Decide = whether "discriminator" or "Discriminator"
---
In 2.1 you have
  Value - S-BFD = network target discriminator value or values.
But there is = no "Value" in the figure.
---
2.2 para 2
s/pan/span/
---
2.2
=   In the case of domain-
  wide = flooding, i.e., where the originator is sitting in a remote
=   area, the mechanism described in section 5 of [RFC5250] = should be
  used.
s/should/SHOULD/?
But if you mean should or = SHOULD (not MUST), what are the exception
cases?

The = intention is not to close the door for future exception cases, without = listing them here necessarily.

I am = personally OK with should or SHOULD, and tempted to leave =E2=80=9Cshould=E2= =80=9D, but happy to take guidance on this.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94= Carlos.

---

Thanks,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
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= --Apple-Mail=_6E9438C2-5966-491C-BDE0-649B62BD6399-- --Apple-Mail=_08D97DD0-416C-475B-A688-8AF18C8487DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXIQmpAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9ifoP/jGEbPJ4tK2f1mVGr98tP8Fw JuVVX6Rz4eJkLqe4JO5+pECsLL4/LgT7jqiXudgZyhRY8tvUyruCu1IfwPiZG0+z LdkBtMucyKGrm3l03iqw7HBMWEK4i6/QB7krAa71ulxCZA9WwtunFo0NEEaNQmkD R2K1C3ysadL/C/Zgyl/R+CfgNC/3QlO3hWVpJcbmUCL14xvh7jTFhke/ZaeoAQbd HgBC9dvuoAQTA4IHqFW+wo/VmeBOgxvB1b09UUDbjcaBupyKL7zK50XdE2Hgmh0M Fsa4NKvaREDfgqdxPdPmv6BKCe3Naf/E/GJfDM5U3I6QLPPPrOOTydsDRoWDJer7 0/k+Nb/wE3rDtk5dUMU9zZs20wyOzyLtpz4KeHbPKu2kbj1iiGpnLvTkIGUlf+lu jI48XFgGOjjgSMTrcn0DDkm0RBArPY/FHi9rnVOgRM4av/72E+NwlnRcFNUH29ud T/H8tPnKNgHZQU7qQcBLv3yinyiDa+oPNDeJitVOruCqx1w/VqJdtvEjNCOV3IbJ 6goxPWXO/I9DGX+fMhYQoL1KOH9AgMfxu2lYVeLuPeDjDFovQfc43h+HJligw8HC FEeZja05Jlnl3+jm5UvxjoTHN+gOERxfOxAATth9smV+08NDNPsgOlLQDhaiOhA+ y5zyFdtnKup0N2WT6mhm =yurq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_08D97DD0-416C-475B-A688-8AF18C8487DB-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 13:17:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B0512B045; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cbqrxi3Piq8c; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22b.google.com (mail-oi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54A2212B02F; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id k142so61722367oib.1; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=T3yHnCvy5OSxiuBrfDfIo5D9EmOEtDFtPPQ6KcJ8utA=; b=EgaNvQxyy+XQmV9ceLAN2IhA8WiObZc2ojbid6sRfMaehFmcDV8W1Fgvg7iz5UYo6S dfst1/ydJi/Ostj4e3CC4RsL5SZMa2MdZjIt2ATWImaqOd+D7jb0PAom6NNkk8+4WHhu d/fEt3E6szXjSuWpvfLhyIAixqslDhg/ZaI3rfRLSzeFmsymxDXnM1r1IWdGTRt7Iz2t BdhLvjB0KZXBCjqOYpoCB644hpORZU/ezIWZwxoV9D0RPBruSS5n5SWokdck3khHKoYY +P3+LpZal7pCQCimEpwftih9dDTr0bafZI+l/sxDqFZImO9+s+Zt7aTNTZwFCbi2IeiB 0OxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=T3yHnCvy5OSxiuBrfDfIo5D9EmOEtDFtPPQ6KcJ8utA=; b=I/jXU0gX5CM1UjoU1u0yxEj39CSwuwvkw/CN8yDbkZj4nSibDx2K0XfqlYrWOPkAA1 doWZW5ArbdCn0NyKCBBU1lDDLp2lXIhOMMLs3DGuYQ5BhGsZd71uTm9P2jm5RW845N6A ATQjDIbmk8Z/z5dV5Xbyd7sqg/OCV8rvY7f3oT1kOWYq4zck9qSZqz7JjB+kVNc5Q9o6 oaCCJgpArd28S42YNy34TscHh4DLehQ5UKz6ckXAIj3AWBaXymn/9oXS8CTFD+676K37 ZYg1p6l/HN6LYlw/FR6HLJPwM6VbAT3hOZimx2HFIPKv4bWvnj31hAH9zQn5xTfIo52P XJTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWiL18mYXwUKvscfsMcdxYhqGlGDQ2l7gvDg4f7bx0m+RssxFJiAQjcxYdfrBsA1dQYh3oEPAV/jXJVmg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.45.81 with SMTP id v75mr4878494ota.85.1461788222435; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:17:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4942DD46-2A03-4B3C-B36E-29A05B81177D@chopps.org> References: <4942DD46-2A03-4B3C-B36E-29A05B81177D@chopps.org> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:17:02 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Christian Hopps Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e9f66bc410405317d17e4 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , padma.ietf@gmail.com, draft-ietf-ospf-ttz.all@ietf.org, OSPF List Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-ospf-ttz-03 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:17:07 -0000 --001a113e9f66bc410405317d17e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Thank you very much for doing your detailed review and raising these concerning points. Authors & Shepherd, Please address these points and let me know when a revised I-D has been submitted. I will do my AD review after that. Thanks, Alia On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Christian Hopps wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, plea= se > see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-ospf-ttz-03 > Reviewer: Christian Hopps > Review Date: April 26, 2016 > IETF LC End Date: unknown > Intended Status: Experimental > > Summary: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > I have some concerns about this document and recommend that the > Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. > > Comments: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > While I believe that the document is for the most part readable and > understandable, I believe it still requires better or more definition= s, > clarifications, and/or additional text before becoming an RFC. > > Major Issues: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > [section "2. Terminology"] > > - An edge router is defined as a router with internal and external > adjacencies. > (and referred to this way later in the text as well). Is this the > actual > definition or is it instead when a router has links that are and are > not > configured as TTZ internal? This makes a big difference b/c the forme= r > case > is very dynamic while the latter is static. One could imagine in the > former > case that a router is configured to be within a TTZ and then by virtu= e > of > who it becomes adjacent with determines whether it is internal or edg= e. > While this makes configuration very simple I think it also has a big > impact > on the complexity of the protocol interactions. > > After reading section 11.1 "Configuring TTZ" which proposes "some > options > for configuring a TTZ", it certainly seems that the intention is for > links > to be determined to be within a TTZ or not based only on > configuration. If > this is indeed the case I think this needs to be stated up front and > very > clearly, and I would suggest changing all the text in "2. Terminology= " > to > talk about configuration instead of adjacencies. For example: > > "TTZ link or TTZ internal link: a link configured to be inside the > TTZ." > > "TTZ external link: a link not configured to be within a TTZ" > > "TTZ internal router: a router configured with only TTZ internal > links." > > "TTZ external router: a router with no configured TTZ internal links" > > "TTZ edge router: a router configured with both TTZ internal and TTZ > external links." > > [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 6 and 7] > > ... "The cost of the link is the cost of the shortest path from this > TTZ edge > router to the other TTZ edge router within the TTZ." > > "In addition, the LSA may contain a third group of links, which are th= e > stub > links for the loopback addresses inside the TTZ to be accessed by node= s > outside of the TTZ." > > - So basically every SPF from a TTZ internal topology change can lead > to new > edge router LSAs being advertised throughout the area to adjust the > "virtual" > routing link costs. This is noteworthy because while you've hidden sta= te > using the TTZ, the dynamics of the network haven't gotten simpler rath= er > they've gotten more complex, as changes are now cascading rather than > being > singular. This is an interesting trade-off choosing perpetual run-time > and > protocol complexity in order to avoid the one time cost of new area > creation. > Would it be worth actually pointing out these costs of using TTZ? > > [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 8] > > "To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router virtualizes the TTZ > in two > steps. At first, the router updates its normal router LSA by adding = a > point-to-point link to each of the other edge routers of the TTZ and > a stub > link for each of the loopback addresses in the TTZ to be accessed > outside > of the TTZ into the LSA. And then it removes the links configured as > TTZ > links from its updated router LSA after sending its updated router > LSA and > receiving the updated router LSAs originated by the other TTZ edge > routers > for MaxLSAAdvTime or after sending its updated router LSA for > MaxLSAGenAdvTime (refer to Appendix A)." > > In order to be sure I understood this I basically broke it apart and > put it together > again with possibly incorrect reductions. I ended up with: > > To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router virtualizes the TTZ > in two steps: > > Step 1: The router updates its router LSA by adding a point-to-point > link > to each of the other known edge routers in the TTZ, and also by > adding the > stub links advertised by TTZ internal routers. > > Step 2: After RMaxLSAAdvTime (.1 seconds) or MaxLSAGenAdvTime (.3 > seconds) > remove the TTZ links from its router LSA. > > [section "10. Computation of Routing Table" > > The text says to ignore *all* links from a TTZ edge routers router LSA= . > This > presumably works b/c the SPF is also going to use the advertised TTZ > Router > LSA instead. Shouldn't the fact that the SPF should using the new TTZ > Router > LSA be stated somewhere as well? > > Minor Issues: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > [section: "Introduction" 2nd paragraph] > > The initial sentence makes an assertion about complexity and time > consumption for area creation. The following sentence does not back > this > assertion up but merely describes the act of creating a new area. I > found > this less than compelling. > > [section: "2. Terminology"] > > This need not be addressed here but it's where I had the question: Ca= n > a > TTZ edge router be in more than one TTZ? > > [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 3rd paragraph ] > > "In addition to having the functions of an OSPF area", is this > actually the > case? That is, is a TTZ really a superset of OSPF area functionality? > I'm > pretty sure it is not. > > [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bullet 1] > > "o An OSPF TTZ is virtualized as the TTZ edges connected each other." > > This is a very important bullet as it actually will describe what a TT= Z > really is. As such I'd suggest more precise text here. For example: > > "o An OSPF TTZ represents a set of TTZ internal routers as a full mesh > of > virtual links between the TTZ edge routers." > > ? > > [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bullet 2] > > "An OSPF TTZ receives the link state information about the > topology outside of the TTZ, stores the information in the TTZ and > floods the > information through the TTZ to the routers outside of the TTZ." > > This bullet is a bit clunky to read. Perhaps something more direct lik= e: > > "Non-TTZ link state information is handled as normal (i.e., it is not > filtered or modified by a TTZ)" > > If you want to keep the original text then a couple nits: > > "An OSPF TTZ receives" =3D> "TTZ Routers receive" > > "stores the information in the TTZ and floods" =3D> "store the > information, and flood" > > [section: "6.1. General Format of TTZ LSA" paragraph 3] > > "A TTZ LSA having an optional TTZ Router TLV is called a TTZ Router > LSA. A TTZ > LSA containing a TTZ Options TLV is called a TTZ Control LSA." > > Can these ever be combined? By naming them distinctly like this, it > seems to > be exclusive, if this is the case that should probably be more clearly > defined. > > In general I think more expansion and clarity here is in order. Instea= d > of > talking about LS Type 10/9 with a note about type 10. Why not discuss > each type: > - LS Type 9 "Link local scope" when it is used, and what is optional > and mandatory in it. > - LS Type 10 "Area scope" when it is used, and what is optional and > mandatory in it. > > [section "6.3. TTZ Router TLV" paragraph 1] > > "The format of a TTZ Router TLV is as follows. It contains the > contents of a router LSA." > > Is this trying to say: > > "It has the same content as a standard OSPF Router LSA (RFC x-ref) wit= h > the > following modifications"? > > [section "6.3. TTZ Router TLV" TLV content] > > Given the existence of the TLV-Length, is the "# links" field > redundant? What > happens if they correctly correlate? > > [section "6.4. TTZ Options TLV" "flags"] > > So "exclusive" =3D> "mutually exclusive"? > > If this is the case these aren't really flags but rather one of 4 > possible > values (I believe in the all 0 case the TLV is not advertised?), and i= f > so it > would be much better to simply define the 4 possible values using 2 > bits. > > What happens if more than one bit is set to 1? > > [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 3] > > This text can be read to indicate that for TTZ internal routers the > router's > normal Router LSA content is copied into a TTZ Router TLV, does the > router > also advertise its Router LSA as normal or is that then suppressed? > It's not > clear to me why this information needs copying, and so I'm wondering i= f > the > text is saying that no TTZ Router TLV is included, and that the TTZ > internal > router just advertises it's regular OSPF Router LSA. > > The text could be more explicit. Also some of my confusion stems from > earlier > defining a "TTZ Router LSA" as one containing an "optional TTZ Router > TLV". > So when the text here refers to the LSA as a TTZ Router LSA one might > assume > that the optional TTZ Router TLV must be present. > > Perhaps this gets back to my want for better separating and defining > the LS Types and contents. > > [section "7. Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 4 and 9] > > "After receiving a trigger to migrate to TTZ such as a TTZ LSA with > flag M =3D 1, a TTZ edge router originates its normal router LSA for > virtualizing a TTZ, which comprises three groups of links in general." > > "To roll back from a TTZ smoothly after receiving a trigger to roll > back from TTZ, ..." > > - Triggers are mentioned a few times throughout the text. I think the > triggers meaning, rather than being initially implied, should be > explicit > defined early and in 1 location. It isn't until section 11.2 that I > thought > I understood what triggers were and how they worked. > > Actually the triggers are defined in section 6.4, but the text there > never > actually uses the word "trigger". I suggest that this be changed so > that it > is clear what a trigger is prior to the use of the term. > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 2] > > "If two ends of the link have different TTZ IDs, no TTZ adjacency over > the link will be "formed"." > > - In general I'm somewhat confused about the actual definition of a TT= Z > adjacency. How does it compare to a normal protocol adjacency. In th= e > above > case you would have a protocol adjacency I believe, but no TTZ > adjacency? > How is this link advertised if the router is a TTZ edge router? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 5] > > The text talks about when (Z=3D=3D0 and there is a TTZ LSA with T=3D1)= or > Z=3D=3D1. Where > are all the places that T=3D1 is showing up? What about the case when = an > adjacency is forming when M=3D1 instead of T=3D1? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 7] > > Since the diagram state Zs are the same, it no longer applies to the > rest of > section 8. Is it worthwhile to have a new diagram here for clarity? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 8] > > Here's a mention of "triggers B to migrate", I think you probably shou= ld > state explicitly what this means, which I *think* is: > > "A also sends a D-LSA containing a TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1 to B, > triggering > it to migrate." > > Although this now makes me wonder what does B do on receiving M=3D1 if= it > had > not received or been configured for T=3D1 yet? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 9] > > I would break this paragraph up to make clear that 2 distinct things a= re > happening based on 2 different events. So: > > "When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they have the same > TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ LSAs it has = and > starts to migrate to TTZ after receiving A's D-LSA with M=3D1. After > migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed." > > becomes: > > "When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they have the same > TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ LSAs it has.= " > > "When B receives the D-LSA from A with M=3D1 it starts to migrate to T= TZ. > After > migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed." > > Does "starts to migrate" here simply means B starts setting it's M=3D1= as > well? > > What exactly is happening for B to go from "starts to migrate" to "Aft= er > migration"? I believe this is indicated by Z=3D0 transitioning to Z=3D= 1 (is > the > TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1 also removed from the D-LSA?) > > What LSAs are being updated and advertised by B here? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 10] > > "After receiving B's D-LSA with Z=3D1, A updates and sends B its D-LSA > by removing the Options TLV. It also updates and advertises its LSAs > as needed." > > What LSAs are being updated and advertised by A here? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" in general] > > Are D-LSA sent periodically, if so how often, if not when precisely ar= e > they > sent? > > What happens when B changes its TTZ ID or doesn't send a D-LSA? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" Broadcast and NBMA part (i.e., > paragraph 11+)] > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 12] > > So the mis-configured router behavior is dependent on when the > mis-configured > router is introduced? If introduced prior to any adjacency formation > then its > presence will keep all routers from becoming TTZ adjacent, otherwise > only > itself will not have become TTZ adjacent? > > What does mis-configured mean, a different TTZ ID? What about the lack > of the > receipt of a D-LSA on the link? How long does the DR wait for receipt > of a > D-LSA from each neighbor before deciding it won't be receiving one and > the > neighbor is not configured on this link as part of TTZ? > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" last paragraph] > > Is this just saying: "routers only TTZ discover after forming a normal > adjacency"? > > [section "9.1. Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph 2] > > "Any network LSA generated for a broadcast or NBMA network in a TTZ is > advertised within the TTZ." > > [nit: And not outside? This is explicit for the router LSA.] > > What happens when a DR has a mis-configured router on a broadcast > network and > thus is not forming a TTZ adjacency with it? It still has a normal > adjacency > right? So it no has a network LSA that includes both TTZ and non-TTZ > routers > where does it advertise this network LSA? > > [section "11.2. Smooth Migration to TTZ" paragraph 5] > > I was confused by many mentions earlier in the document to a router > migrating > to a TTZ. I think what paragraph 5 in section 11.2 is saying (in too > many > words) is this: > > "Migrating to a TTZ" means a router advertises a TTZ Control TLV with > M=3D1. A > router "Migrates to a TTZ" either when configured to do so or when it > receives a TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1. > > If this is the case then I think something like the above text should > occur > earlier in the document. > > [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 3] > > I don't understand the intent of this paragraph. Is it just saying tha= t > if > TTZ is configured on a link between 2 non-adjacent routers, when they > eventually become adjacent they will also form a TTZ adjacency? > > [section "13. Security Considerations"] > > This seems a bit weak or perhaps just wrong. Perhaps better would be t= o > say > that TTZ relies on the OSPF security mechanisms in place and has the > same > security threat surface? > > Nits: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > [section: "2. Terminology" 3rd item] > > "TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ without any TTZ > internal link." > > =3D> > > "TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ that has no TTZ > internal links." > > [section: "2. Terminology" 4th item] > > Move below 5th item that it references > > [section "4. Requirements" 1st paragraph] > > - "*A* Topology-Transparent Zone" > - "for *a* TTZ" > > [section "5.1. Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 1st paragraph ] > > Define and use TTZ ID, rather than just "(ID)" as that is what the > rest of > the document refers to this as, and is more specific anyway. > > [section "5.2. Some Details on TTZ" paragraph 4] > > "Note that none of the TTZ internal routers can be an ABR." > > =3D> > > "Note that by definition a TTZ internal router cannot also be an ABR." > > [section "6.4. TTZ Options TLV" paragraph 2] > > "as needed" =3D> "as described below"? > > > [section "6.5. Link Scope TTZ LSA" diagram and paragraph 1] > > "Options TLV" =3D> "TTZ Options TLV" (and all other uses?) > > [section "8. Establishing Adjacencies"] > > "This section describes the adjacencies in different cases." > > =3D> > > "This section describes the TTZ adjacencies." > > [section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" multiple paragraphs] > > "discover TTZ each other" =3D> "TTZ discover each other" > > [various section "8.1. Discover TTZ Neighbors" ...] > > Text uses =3D and =3D=3D but in both cases it = means > equality check, not assignment, pick and use one consistently in the > document. > > On the use of parenthesis, the text is using parenthesis as a form of > grouping as one might in mathematics which I'm not sure is proper. > Parenthesis in writing are generally used as an aside. Probably the > clearest > way to indicate the logical grouping would be to use a list, e.g., > > When one of the following conditions is met. > > - Z =3D 0 and there is a TTZ Options LSA with T =3D 1 > - Z =3D 1 > > ... > > [section "9.1. Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph 1] > > "advertised within" =3D> "advertised only within" > > [section "11.1. Configuring TTZ" last paragraph] > > "the above one" =3D> "option 1" > > [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 1] > > "When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P link to a TTZ > router (say T1) working as TTZ and there is a normal adjacency > between them over the link, a user can configure TTZ on two ends of > the link to add R1 into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. They discover > TTZ each other with the TTZ as described in section 8." > > =3D> > > "When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P link to a > migrated TTZ > router (say T1), and there is a normal adjacency between them over the > link, > a user can configure TTZ on both ends of the link to add R1 into the > TTZ to > which T1 belongs. They TTZ discover each other as described in section > 8." > > [section "11.3. Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 2] > > "When a number of non TTZ routers are connected via a broadcast link > to a TTZ router (say T1) working as TTZ and there are normal > adjacencies among them, a user configures TTZ on the connection to > the link on every router to add the non TTZ routers into the TTZ to > which T1 belongs. The DR for the link "forms" TTZ adjacencies with > the other routers connected to the link if they all have the same TTZ > ID configured for the link. This is determined through the discovery > process described in section 8." > > =3D> > > "When non TTZ routers are connected via a broadcast or NBMA link to a > migrated TTZ router (say T1), and there are normal adjacencies among > them, a > user configures TTZ on the connection to the link on every router to > add the > non TTZ routers into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. The DR for the link > "forms" > TTZ adjacencies with the other routers connected to the link if they > all have > the same TTZ ID configured for the link. This is determined through th= e > TTZ discovery process described in section 8." > > [section "12.2. Implementation Experience"] > > Convert IETF 90 to (or include) a date. > > [section "14. IANA Considerations"] > > While not requested in the text, a new registry needs to be created fo= r > the > management of TTZ TLV types and so information regarding this new > registry in > addition to the initial seed values is required. > > --001a113e9f66bc410405317d17e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for doing= your detailed review and raising these concerning points.

Authors & Shepherd,
Please address these points and = let me know when a revised I-D has been submitted.
I will do my A= D review after that.

Thanks,
Alia
<= /div>

On Wed, Apr = 27, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wro= te:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts= as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec= ial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Rout= ing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2= =80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/= wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-ttz-03
Reviewer: Christian Hopps
Review Date: April 26, 2016
IETF LC End Date: unknown
Intended Status: Experimental

Summary:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have some concerns about this document and recommend that t= he
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.
Comments:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 While I believe that the document is for the most part readab= le and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 understandable, I believe it still requires better or more de= finitions,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 clarifications, and/or additional text before becoming an RFC= .

Major Issues:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[section "2.=C2=A0 Terminology"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - An edge router is defined as a router with internal and ext= ernal adjacencies.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (and referred to this way later in the text as well). Is this= the actual
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition or is it instead when a router has links that are = and are not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configured as TTZ internal? This makes a big difference b/c t= he former case
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is very dynamic while the latter is static. One could imagine= in the former
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case that a router is configured to be within a TTZ and then = by virtue of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 who it becomes adjacent with determines whether it is interna= l or edge.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 While this makes configuration very simple I think it also ha= s a big impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the complexity of the protocol interactions.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After reading section 11.1 "Configuring TTZ" which = proposes "some options
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for configuring a TTZ", it certainly seems that the inte= ntion is for links
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to be determined to be within a TTZ or not based only on conf= iguration. If
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is indeed the case I think this needs to be stated up fr= ont and very
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 clearly, and I would suggest changing all the text in "2= . Terminology" to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 talk about configuration instead of adjacencies. For example:=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "TTZ link or TTZ internal link: a link configured to be = inside the TTZ."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "TTZ external link: a link not configured to be within a= TTZ"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "TTZ internal router: a router configured with only TTZ = internal links."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "TTZ external router: a router with no configured TTZ in= ternal links"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "TTZ edge router: a router configured with both TTZ inte= rnal and TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external links."

[section "7.=C2=A0 Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 6 and 7]<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0... "The cost of the link is the cost of the shortest pat= h from this TTZ edge
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router to the other TTZ edge router within the TTZ."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"In addition, the LSA may contain a third group of links,= which are the stub
=C2=A0 =C2=A0links for the loopback addresses inside the TTZ to be accessed= by nodes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0outside of the TTZ."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- So basically every SPF from a TTZ internal topology change c= an lead to new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0edge router LSAs being advertised throughout the area to adjus= t the "virtual"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing link costs. This is noteworthy because while you'v= e hidden state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0using the TTZ, the dynamics of the network haven't gotten = simpler rather
=C2=A0 =C2=A0they've gotten more complex, as changes are now cascading = rather than being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0singular. This is an interesting trade-off choosing perpetual = run-time and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol complexity in order to avoid the one time cost of new= area creation.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would it be worth actually pointing out these costs of using T= TZ?

[section "7.=C2=A0 Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 8]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router v= irtualizes the TTZ in two
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0steps. At first, the router updates its normal router L= SA by adding a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point-to-point link to each of the other edge routers o= f the TTZ and a stub
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link for each of the loopback addresses in the TTZ to b= e accessed outside
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the TTZ into the LSA. And then it removes the links = configured as TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0links from its updated router LSA after sending its upd= ated router LSA and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0receiving the updated router LSAs originated by the oth= er TTZ edge routers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for MaxLSAAdvTime or after sending its updated router L= SA for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MaxLSAGenAdvTime (refer to Appendix A)."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to be sure I understood this I basically broke it apa= rt and put it together
=C2=A0 =C2=A0again with possibly incorrect reductions. I ended up with:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To migrate to a TTZ smoothly, a TTZ edge router virtual= izes the TTZ in two steps:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Step 1: The router updates its router LSA by adding a p= oint-to-point link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to each of the other known edge routers in the TTZ, and= also by adding the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stub links advertised by TTZ internal routers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Step 2: After RMaxLSAAdvTime (.1 seconds) or MaxLSAGenA= dvTime (.3 seconds)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0remove the TTZ links from its router LSA.

[section "10.=C2=A0 Computation of Routing Table"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The text says to ignore *all* links from a TTZ edge routers ro= uter LSA. This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0presumably works b/c the SPF is also going to use the advertis= ed TTZ Router
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSA instead. Shouldn't the fact that the SPF should using = the new TTZ Router
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSA be stated somewhere as well?

Minor Issues:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[section: "Introduction" 2nd paragraph]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The initial sentence makes an assertion about complexity and = time
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consumption for area creation. The following sentence does no= t back this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 assertion up but merely describes the act of creating a new a= rea. I found
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this less than compelling.

[section: "2. Terminology"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This need not be addressed here but it's where I had the = question: Can a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TTZ edge router be in more than one TTZ?

[section "5.1.=C2=A0 Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 3rd p= aragraph ]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "In addition to having the functions of an OSPF area&quo= t;, is this actually the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case? That is, is a TTZ really a superset of OSPF area functi= onality? I'm
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pretty sure it is not.

[section "5.1.=C2=A0 Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bulle= t 1]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"o=C2=A0 An OSPF TTZ is virtualized as the TTZ edges conn= ected each other."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is a very important bullet as it actually will describe w= hat a TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0really is. As such I'd suggest more precise text here. For= example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"o An OSPF TTZ represents a set of TTZ internal routers a= s a full mesh of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtual links between the TTZ edge routers."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0?

[section "5.1.=C2=A0 Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" Bulle= t 2]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"An OSPF TTZ receives the link state information about th= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0topology outside of the TTZ, stores the information in the TTZ= and floods the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0information through the TTZ to the routers outside of the TTZ.= "

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This bullet is a bit clunky to read. Perhaps something more di= rect like:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Non-TTZ link state information is handled as normal (i.e= ., it is not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0filtered or modified by a TTZ)"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you want to keep the original text then a couple nits:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"An OSPF TTZ receives" =3D> "TTZ Routers rec= eive"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"stores the information in the TTZ and floods" =3D&g= t; "store the information, and flood"

[section: "6.1.=C2=A0 General Format of TTZ LSA" paragraph 3]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"A TTZ LSA having an optional TTZ Router TLV is called a = TTZ Router LSA. A TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSA containing a TTZ Options TLV is called a TTZ Control LSA.&= quot;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Can these ever be combined? By naming them distinctly like thi= s, it seems to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be exclusive, if this is the case that should probably be more= clearly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In general I think more expansion and clarity here is in order= . Instead of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0talking about LS Type 10/9 with a note about type 10. Why not = discuss each type:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- LS Type 9 "Link local scope" when it is used, and = what is optional and mandatory in it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- LS Type 10 "Area scope" when it is used, and what = is optional and mandatory in it.

[section "6.3.=C2=A0 TTZ Router TLV" paragraph 1]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"The format of a TTZ Router TLV is as follows.=C2=A0 It c= ontains the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0contents of a router LSA."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is this trying to say:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"It has the same content as a standard OSPF Router LSA (R= FC x-ref) with the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0following modifications"?

[section "6.3.=C2=A0 TTZ Router TLV" TLV content]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Given the existence of the TLV-Length, is the "# links&qu= ot; field redundant? What
=C2=A0 =C2=A0happens if they correctly correlate?

[section "6.4.=C2=A0 TTZ Options TLV" "flags"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So "exclusive" =3D> "mutually exclusive"= ;?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If this is the case these aren't really flags but rather o= ne of 4 possible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0values (I believe in the all 0 case the TLV is not advertised?= ), and if so it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0would be much better to simply define the 4 possible values us= ing 2 bits.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What happens if more than one bit is set to 1?

[section "7.=C2=A0 Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 3]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This text can be read to indicate that for TTZ internal router= s the router's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0normal Router LSA content is copied into a TTZ Router TLV, doe= s the router
=C2=A0 =C2=A0also advertise its Router LSA as normal or is that then suppre= ssed? It's not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0clear to me why this information needs copying, and so I'm= wondering if the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0text is saying that no TTZ Router TLV is included, and that th= e TTZ internal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router just advertises it's regular OSPF Router LSA.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The text could be more explicit. Also some of my confusion ste= ms from earlier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defining a "TTZ Router LSA" as one containing an &qu= ot;optional TTZ Router TLV".
=C2=A0 =C2=A0So when the text here refers to the LSA as a TTZ Router LSA on= e might assume
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that the optional TTZ Router TLV must be present.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Perhaps this gets back to my want for better separating and de= fining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the LS Types and contents.

[section "7.=C2=A0 Constructing LSAs for TTZ" paragraph 4 and 9]<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"After receiving a trigger to migrate to TTZ such as a TT= Z LSA with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0flag M =3D 1, a TTZ edge router originates its normal router L= SA for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualizing a TTZ, which comprises three groups of links in g= eneral."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"To roll back from a TTZ smoothly after receiving a trigg= er to roll
=C2=A0 =C2=A0back from TTZ, ..."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Triggers are mentioned a few times throughout the text. I th= ink the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0triggers meaning, rather than being initially implied, = should be explicit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0defined early and in 1 location. It isn't until sec= tion 11.2 that I thought
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I understood what triggers were and how they worked.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Actually the triggers are defined in section 6.4, but t= he text there never
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually uses the word "trigger". I suggest t= hat this be changed so that it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is clear what a trigger is prior to the use of the term= .

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 2]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"If two ends of the link have different TTZ IDs, no TTZ a= djacency over
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the link will be "formed"."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- In general I'm somewhat confused about the actual defini= tion of a TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency. How does it compare to a normal protocol adj= acency. In the above
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case you would have a protocol adjacency I believe, but= no TTZ adjacency?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How is this link advertised if the router is a TTZ edge= router?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 5]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The text talks about when (Z=3D=3D0 and there is a TTZ LSA wit= h T=3D1) or Z=3D=3D1. Where
=C2=A0 =C2=A0are all the places that T=3D1 is showing up? What about the ca= se when an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency is forming when M=3D1 instead of T=3D1?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 7]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the diagram state Zs are the same, it no longer applies = to the rest of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0section 8. Is it worthwhile to have a new diagram here for cla= rity?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 8]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here's a mention of "triggers B to migrate", I t= hink you probably should
=C2=A0 =C2=A0state explicitly what this means, which I *think* is:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"A also sends a D-LSA containing a TTZ Control TLV with M= =3D1 to B, triggering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0it to migrate."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Although this now makes me wonder what does B do on receiving = M=3D1 if it had
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not received or been configured for T=3D1 yet?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 9]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would break this paragraph up to make clear that 2 distinct = things are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0happening based on 2 different events. So:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they hav= e the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ = LSAs it has and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0starts to migrate to TTZ after receiving A's D-LSA with M= =3D1.=C2=A0 After
=C2=A0 =C2=A0migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed.= "

=C2=A0 =C2=A0becomes:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When B receives the D-LSA from A and determines they hav= e the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ ID but its Z=3D0 and A's Z=3D1, B sends A all the TTZ = LSAs it has."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When B receives the D-LSA from A with M=3D1 it starts to= migrate to TTZ. After
=C2=A0 =C2=A0migration to TTZ, B updates and advertises its LSAs as needed.= "

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Does "starts to migrate" here simply means B starts = setting it's M=3D1 as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0well?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What exactly is happening for B to go from "starts to mig= rate" to "After
=C2=A0 =C2=A0migration"? I believe this is indicated by Z=3D0 transiti= oning to Z=3D1 (is the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1 also removed from the D-LSA?)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What LSAs are being updated and advertised by B here?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 10]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"After receiving B's D-LSA with Z=3D1, A updates and = sends B its D-LSA
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by removing the Options TLV.=C2=A0 It also updates and adverti= ses its LSAs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as needed."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What LSAs are being updated and advertised by A here?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" in general]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Are D-LSA sent periodically, if so how often, if not when prec= isely are they
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sent?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What happens when B changes its TTZ ID or doesn't send a D= -LSA?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" Broadcast and NBMA p= art (i.e., paragraph 11+)]

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" paragraph 12]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So the mis-configured router behavior is dependent on when the= mis-configured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router is introduced? If introduced prior to any adjacency for= mation then its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0presence will keep all routers from becoming TTZ adjacent, oth= erwise only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0itself will not have become TTZ adjacent?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0What does mis-configured mean, a different TTZ ID? What about = the lack of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0receipt of a D-LSA on the link? How long does the DR wait for = receipt of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0D-LSA from each neighbor before deciding it won't be recei= ving one and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0neighbor is not configured on this link as part of TTZ?

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" last paragraph]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is this just saying: "routers only TTZ discover after for= ming a normal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency"?

[section "9.1.=C2=A0 Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph = 2]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Any network LSA generated for a broadcast or NBMA networ= k in a TTZ is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0advertised within the TTZ."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[nit: And not outside? This is explicit for the router LSA.]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0What happens when a DR has a mis-configured router on a broadc= ast network and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thus is not forming a TTZ adjacency with it? It still has a no= rmal adjacency
=C2=A0 =C2=A0right? So it no has a network LSA that includes both TTZ and n= on-TTZ routers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0where does it advertise this network LSA?

[section "11.2.=C2=A0 Smooth Migration to TTZ" paragraph 5]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I was confused by many mentions earlier in the document to a r= outer migrating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to a TTZ. I think what paragraph 5 in section 11.2 is saying (= in too many
=C2=A0 =C2=A0words) is this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Migrating to a TTZ" means a router advertises a TTZ= Control TLV with M=3D1. A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router "Migrates to a TTZ" either when configured to= do so or when it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0receives a TTZ Control TLV with M=3D1.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If this is the case then I think something like the above text= should occur
=C2=A0 =C2=A0earlier in the document.

[section "11.3.=C2=A0 Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 3]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't understand the intent of this paragraph. Is it jus= t saying that if
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ is configured on a link between 2 non-adjacent routers, wh= en they
=C2=A0 =C2=A0eventually become adjacent they will also form a TTZ adjacency= ?

[section "13.=C2=A0 Security Considerations"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This seems a bit weak or perhaps just wrong. Perhaps better wo= uld be to say
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that TTZ relies on the OSPF security mechanisms in place and h= as the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0security threat surface?

Nits:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[section: "2. Terminology" 3rd item]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ without a= ny TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0internal link."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"TTZ external router: a router outside of a TTZ that has = no TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0internal links."

[section: "2. Terminology" 4th item]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Move below 5th item that it references

[section "4. Requirements" 1st paragraph]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - "*A* Topology-Transparent Zone"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - "for *a* TTZ"

[section "5.1.=C2=A0 Overview of Topology-Transparent Zone" 1st p= aragraph ]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Define and use TTZ ID, rather than just "(ID)" as t= hat is what the rest of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the document refers to this as, and is more specific anyway.<= br>
[section "5.2.=C2=A0 Some Details on TTZ" paragraph 4]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Note that none of the TTZ internal routers can be an ABR= ."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Note that by definition a TTZ internal router cannot als= o be an ABR."

[section "6.4.=C2=A0 TTZ Options TLV" paragraph 2]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"as needed" =3D> "as described below"?<= br>

[section "6.5.=C2=A0 Link Scope TTZ LSA" diagram and paragraph 1]=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Options TLV" =3D> "TTZ Options TLV" (a= nd all other uses?)

[section "8.=C2=A0 Establishing Adjacencies"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"This section describes the adjacencies in different case= s."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"This section describes the TTZ adjacencies."

[section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" multiple paragraphs]=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"discover TTZ each other" =3D> "TTZ discover= each other"

[various section "8.1.=C2=A0 Discover TTZ Neighbors" ...]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Text uses <bit>=3D<value> and <bit>=3D=3D<= ;value> but in both cases it means
=C2=A0 =C2=A0equality check, not assignment, pick and use one consistently = in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0document.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0On the use of parenthesis, the text is using parenthesis as a = form of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping as one might in mathematics which I'm not sure is= proper.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Parenthesis in writing are generally used as an aside. Probabl= y the clearest
=C2=A0 =C2=A0way to indicate the logical grouping would be to use a list, e= .g.,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When one of the following conditions is met.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Z =3D 0 and there is a TTZ Options LSA with T =3D 1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Z =3D 1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0...

[section "9.1.=C2=A0 Advertisement of LSAs within TTZ" paragraph = 1]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"advertised within" =3D> "advertised only wi= thin"

[section "11.1.=C2=A0 Configuring TTZ" last paragraph]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"the above one" =3D> "option 1"

[section "11.3.=C2=A0 Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 1]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P li= nk to a TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router (say T1) working as TTZ and there is a normal adjacency=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0between them over the link, a user can configure TTZ on two en= ds of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the link to add R1 into the TTZ to which T1 belongs.=C2=A0 The= y discover
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ each other with the TTZ as described in section 8."
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When a non TTZ router (say R1) is connected via a P2P li= nk to a migrated TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0router (say T1), and there is a normal adjacency between them = over the link,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a user can configure TTZ on both ends of the link to add R1 in= to the TTZ to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which T1 belongs. They TTZ discover each other as described in= section 8."

[section "11.3.=C2=A0 Adding a Router into TTZ" paragraph 2]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When a number of non TTZ routers are connected via a bro= adcast link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to a TTZ router (say T1) working as TTZ and there are normal =C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacencies among them, a user configures TTZ on the connectio= n to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the link on every router to add the non TTZ routers into the T= TZ to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which T1 belongs.=C2=A0 The DR for the link "forms" = TTZ adjacencies with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the other routers connected to the link if they all have the s= ame TTZ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ID configured for the link.=C2=A0 This is determined through t= he discovery
=C2=A0 =C2=A0process described in section 8."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"When non TTZ routers are connected via a broadcast or NB= MA link to a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0migrated TTZ router (say T1), and there are normal adjacencies= among them, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0user configures TTZ on the connection to the link on every rou= ter to add the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non TTZ routers into the TTZ to which T1 belongs. The DR for t= he link "forms"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ adjacencies with the other routers connected to the link i= f they all have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the same TTZ ID configured for the link. This is determined th= rough the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TTZ discovery process described in section 8."

[section "12.2.=C2=A0 Implementation Experience"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Convert IETF 90 to (or include) a date.

[section "14.=C2=A0 IANA Considerations"]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0While not requested in the text, a new registry needs to be cr= eated for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0management of TTZ TLV types and so information regarding this = new registry in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addition to the initial seed values is required.


--001a113e9f66bc410405317d17e4-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 13:27:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5EB12DC12; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:27:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IUOq4lDIFEHI; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:27:03 -0700 (PDT) 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(PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id v145so28930142oie.0; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:30:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=JeC8+6WhvfXRJbBonJdy2xCSIcTy0x/1wEXOVmQGGe4=; b=Uh/oaekmcsBpVuaRBo4uCSJ86IbqDLqwkv39u+bBpsvmZMl425emU52zI79FvLzBeV lsNIWWL4GCC6wh93FFColfxvfShu2x5qYoae7K3DfLtRi0Nf6OjnSaSqBep1cJr3cnyD v+cXPybuMZMv6RQNU+X1Nw9TiHwGn+XWiYFmkpd33qq5R4mUEBttcmed/uYelEMOJ7Jq TAC4xgDURbDSnZE45/5hfuokXm9lK8lGk5Hwovjmao381Zrk4myE0nS7Zo7U2dZpshV6 Xxd8Sm6xXPx//ZlV3SIfwpX9nnuXu420+r2g5p36IrFkB0TS46pHc+NxC5Lhy7Sy3NLa 2yFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=JeC8+6WhvfXRJbBonJdy2xCSIcTy0x/1wEXOVmQGGe4=; b=CgE0Napo04ToqXE5Hz3R4TRhGy6pQsxpxnKh7CKTu72dVOVQGwBCGtZ8xnuuDK8tUO 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centers" X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:30:44 -0000 --001a1141b2662f2f3005317d48b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, Thanks very much for your thorough review! Authors and Shepherd, Could you please work to address these comments and submit an updated draft= ? I still need to do my AD review and hope to have this to the IESG telechat on May 19, which means getting it into IETF Last Call this week. Thanks, Alia On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, > please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc-09.txt > Reviewer: Acee Lindem > Review Date: 4/25/16 > IETF LC End Date: Not started > Intended Status: Informational > > Summary: > This document is basically ready for publication, but has some minor > issues and nits that should be resolved prior to publication. > > Comments: > The document starts with the requirements for an MSDC routing and the= n > provides an overview of Clos data topologies and data center network > design. This overview attempts to cover a lot of a material in a very > small amount of text. While not completely successful, the overview > provides a lot of good information and references. The bulk of the > document covers the usage of EBGP as the sole data center routing protoco= l > and other aspects of the routing design including ECMP, summarization > issues, and convergence. These sections provide a very good guide for > using EBGP in a Clos data center and an excellent discussion of the > deployment issues (based on real deployment experience). > > The technical content of the document is excellent. The readability > could be improved by breaking up some of the run-on sentences and with th= e > suggested editorial changes (see Nits below). > > > Major Issues: > > I have no major issues with the document. > > Minor Issues: > > Section 4.2: Can an informative reference be added for Direct Server > Return (DSR)? > Section 5.2.4 and 7.4: Define precisely what is meant by "scale-out" > topology somewhere in the document. > Section 5.2.5: Can you add a backward reference to the discussion of > "lack of peer links inside every peer=E2=80=9D? Also, it would be good to= describe > how this would allow for summarization and under what failure conditions. > Section 7.4: Should you add a reference to > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-00.txt to the penultimat= e > paragraph in this section? > > Nits: > > *************** > *** 143,149 **** > network stability so that a small group of people can effectively > support a significantly sized network. > > ! Experimentation and extensive testing has shown that External BGP > (EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routing protocol fo= r > these type of data center applications. This is in contrast with > more traditional DC designs, which may se simple tree topologies and > --- 143,149 ---- > network stability so that a sall group of people can effectively > support a significantly sized network. > > ! Experimentation and extensive testing have shown that External BGP > (EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routing protocol fo= r > these type of data center applications. This is in contrast with > more traditional DC designs, which may use simple tree topologies an= d > *************** > *** 178,191 **** > 2.1. Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns > > The primary requirement when building an interconnection network for > ! large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwidth and > latency requirements. Until recently it was quite common to see the > majority of traffic entering and leaving the data center, commonly > referred to as "north-south" traffic. Traditional "tree" topologies > were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with high > oversubscription ratios between the layers of the network. If more > bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling up" the network > ! elements, e.g. by upgrading the device's linecards or fabrics or > replacing the device with one with higher port density. > > Today many large-scale data centers host applications generating > --- 178,191 ---- > 2.1. Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns > > The primary requirement when building an interconnection network for > ! a large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwidth an= d > latency requirements. Until recently it was quite common to see the > majority of traffic entering and leaving the data center, commonly > referred to as "north-south" traffic. Traditional "tree" topologies > were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with high > oversubscription ratios between the layers of the network. If more > bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling up" the network > ! elements, e.g., by upgrading the device's linecards or fabrics or > replacing the device with one with higher port density. > > Today many large-scale data centers host applications generating > *************** > *** 195,201 **** > [HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters needed by certai= n > applications, or virtual machine migrations. Scaling traditional > tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands becomes either too > ! expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g. port > density in a switch. > > 2.2. CAPEX Minimization > --- 195,201 ---- > [HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters needed by certai= n > applications, or virtual machine migrations. Scaling traditional > tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands becomes either too > ! expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g., port > density in a switch. > > 2.2. CAPEX Minimization > *************** > *** 209,215 **** > > o Unifying all network elements, preferably using the same hardware > type or even the same device. This allows for volume pricing on > ! bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and sparing costs. > > o Driving costs down using competitive pressures, by introducing > multiple network equipment vendors. > --- 209,215 ---- > > o Unifying all network elements, preferably using the same hardware > type or even the same device. This allows for volume pricing on > ! bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and inventory costs. > > o Driving costs down using competitive pressures, by introducing > multiple network equipment vendors. > *************** > *** 234,244 **** > minimizes software issue-related failures. > > An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) minimization i= s > ! reducing size of failure domains in the network. Ethernet networks > are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast traffic storms > that can have a dramatic impact on network performance and > availability. The use of a fully routed design significantly reduce= s > ! the size of the data plane failure domains - i.e. limits them to the > lowest level in the network hierarchy. However, such designs > introduce the problem of distributed control plane failures. This > observation calls for simpler and less control plane protocols to > --- 234,244 ---- > minimizes software issue-related failures. > > An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) minimization i= s > ! reducing the size of failure domains in the network. Ethernet > networks > are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast traffic storms > that can have a dramatic impact on network performance and > availability. The use of a fully routed design significantly reduce= s > ! the size of the data plane failure domains, i.e., limits them to the > lowest level in the network hierarchy. However, such designs > introduce the problem of distributed control plane failures. This > observation calls for simpler and less control plane protocols to > *************** > *** 253,259 **** > performed by network devices. Traditionally, load balancers are > deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding path. The > problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing traffic > ! demand. A preferable solution would be able to scale load balancing > layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes and > distributing incoming traffic across these nodes. In situations lik= e > this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastructure itself > --- 253,259 ---- > performed by network devices. Traditionally, load balancers are > deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding path. The > problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing traffic > ! demand. A preferable solution would be able to scale the load > balancing > layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes and > distributing incoming traffic across these nodes. In situations lik= e > this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastructure itself > *************** > *** 305,311 **** > 3.1. Traditional DC Topology > > In the networking industry, a common design choice for data centers > ! typically look like a (upside down) tree with redundant uplinks and > three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/distribution and > access layers (see Figure 1). To accommodate bandwidth demands, eac= h > higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has higher port > --- 305,311 ---- > 3.1. Traditional DC Topology > > In the networking industry, a common design choice for data centers > ! typically look like an (upside down) tree with redundant uplinks and > three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/distribution and > access layers (see Figure 1). To accommodate bandwidth demands, eac= h > higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has higher port > *************** > *** 373,379 **** > topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, for example, [INTERCON] > and [ALFARES2008]). This topology features an odd number of stages > (sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of uniform > ! elements, e.g. network switches with the same port count. Therefore= , > the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and facilitates > REQ2. See Figure 2 below for an example of a folded 3-stage Clos > topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tracing a packe= t > --- 373,379 ---- > topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, for example, [INTERCON] > and [ALFARES2008]). This topology features an odd number of stages > (sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of uniform > ! elements, e.g., network switches with the same port count. Therefor= e, > the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and facilitates > REQ2. See Figure 2 below for an example of a folded 3-stage Clos > topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tracing a packe= t > *************** > *** 460,466 **** > 3.2.3. Scaling the Clos topology > > A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing network element > ! port density or adding more stages, e.g. moving to a 5-stage Clos, a= s > illustrated in Figure 3 below: > > Tier-1 > --- 460,466 ---- > 3.2.3. Scaling the Clos topology > > A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing network element > ! port density or adding more stages, e.g., moving to a 5-stage Clos, = as > illustrated in Figure 3 below: > > Tier-1 > *************** > *** 523,529 **** > 3.2.4. Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers > > If a data center network size is small, it is possible to reduce the > ! number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of Clos topology by a factor > of two. To understand how this could be done, take Tier-1 as an > example. Every Tier-2 device connects to a single group of Tier-1 > devices. If half of the ports on each of the Tier-1 devices are not > --- 523,529 ---- > 3.2.4. Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers > > If a data center network size is small, it is possible to reduce the > ! number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of a Clos topology by a facto= r > of two. To understand how this could be done, take Tier-1 as an > example. Every Tier-2 device connects to a single group of Tier-1 > devices. If half of the ports on each of the Tier-1 devices are not > *************** > *** 574,580 **** > originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free topology > creation, typically utilizing variants of the traditional DC topolog= y > described in Section 3.1. At the time, many DC switches either did > ! not support Layer 3 routed protocols or supported it with additional > licensing fees, which played a part in the design choice. Although > many enhancements have been made through the introduction of Rapid > Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of > --- 574,580 ---- > originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free topology > creation, typically utilizing variants of the traditional DC topolog= y > described in Section 3.1. At the time, many DC switches either did > ! not support Layer 3 routing protocols or supported them with > additional > licensing fees, which played a part in the design choice. Although > many enhancements have been made through the introduction of Rapid > Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of > *************** > *** 599,605 **** > as the backup for loop prevention. The major downsides of this > approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past two in most > implementations, lack of standards based implementations, and added > ! failure domain risk of keeping state between the devices. > > It should be noted that building large, horizontally scalable, Layer > 2 only networks without STP is possible recently through the > --- 599,605 ---- > as the backup for loop prevention. The major downsides of this > approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past two in most > implementations, lack of standards based implementations, and added > ! the failure domain risk of syncing state between the devices. > > It should be noted that building large, horizontally scalable, Layer > 2 only networks without STP is possible recently through the > *************** > *** 621,631 **** > Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M-LAG approach > totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast domain, that i= s > so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethernet based > ! solutions. Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to solve the > this problem statement primarily based on the approaches outlined in > [RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of available > ! interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fabric, > ! therefore TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3, and > REQ4. > > 4.2. Hybrid L2/L3 Designs > --- 621,631 ---- > Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M-LAG approach > totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast domain, that i= s > so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethernet based > ! solution. Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to solve the > this problem statement primarily based on the approaches outlined in > [RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of available > ! interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fabric. > ! Therefore, TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3, and > REQ4. > > 4.2. Hybrid L2/L3 Designs > *************** > *** 635,641 **** > in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and dividing the > Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains. This design has > allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of complexity in > ! the network managing multiple protocols. For the following reasons, > operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (Tier-3) or bot= h > access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the network: > > --- 635,641 ---- > in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and dividing the > Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains. This design has > allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of complexity in > ! the managing multiple network protocols. For the following reasons, > operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (Tier-3) or bot= h > access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the network: > > *************** > *** 644,650 **** > > o Seamless mobility for virtual machines that require the > preservation of IP addresses when a virtual machine moves to > ! different Tier-3 switch. > > o Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets are required for the > data center. > --- 644,650 ---- > > o Seamless mobility for virtual machines that require the > preservation of IP addresses when a virtual machine moves to > ! a different Tier-3 switch. > > o Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets are required for the > data center. > *************** > *** 679,686 **** > adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and larger size > Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network scalability > and stability. Application providers and network operators continue > ! to also develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements that > ! previously have driven large Layer 2 domains by using various overla= y > or tunneling techniques. > > 5. Routing Protocol Selection and Design > --- 679,686 ---- > adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and larger size > Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network scalability > and stability. Application providers and network operators continue > ! to develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements that > ! previously had driven large Layer 2 domains using various overlay > or tunneling techniques. > > 5. Routing Protocol Selection and Design > *************** > *** 700,706 **** > design. > > Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter-domain > ! routing on the Internet and has wide support from both vendor and > service provider communities, it is not generally deployed as the > primary routing protocol within the data center for a number of > reasons (some of which are interrelated): > --- 700,706 ---- > design. > > Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter-domain > ! routing in the Internet and has wide support from both vendor and > service provider communities, it is not generally deployed as the > primary routing protocol within the data center for a number of > reasons (some of which are interrelated): > *************** > *** 741,754 **** > state IGPs. Since every BGP router calculates and propagates onl= y > the best-path selected, a network failure is masked as soon as th= e > BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exists when highly > ! symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled with EBGP only > design. In contrast, the event propagation scope of a link-state > IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failure type. In this > way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4. It is also worth mentioning > that all widely deployed link-state IGPs feature periodic > ! refreshes of routing information, even if this rarely causes > ! impact to modern router control planes, while BGP does not expire > ! routing state. > > o BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved) next-hops. This > allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECMP based or > --- 741,754 ---- > state IGPs. Since every BGP router calculates and propagates onl= y > the best-path selected, a network failure is masked as soon as th= e > BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exists when highly > ! symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled with an EBGP only > design. In contrast, the event propagation scope of a link-state > IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failure type. In this > way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4. It is also worth mentioning > that all widely deployed link-state IGPs feature periodic > ! refreshes of routing information while BGP does not expire > ! routing state, although this rarely impacts modern router control > ! planes. > > o BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved) next-hops. This > allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECMP based or > *************** > *** 765,775 **** > controlled and complex unwanted paths will be ignored. See > Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN allocation scheme. I= n > a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal would require multi- > ! (instance/topology/processes) support, typically not available in > all DC devices and quite complex to configure and troubleshoot. > Using a traditional single flooding domain, which most DC designs > utilize, under certain failure conditions may pick up unwanted > ! lengthy paths, e.g. traversing multiple Tier-2 devices. > > o EBGP configuration that is implemented with minimal routing polic= y > is easier to troubleshoot for network reachability issues. In > --- 765,775 ---- > controlled and complex unwanted paths will be ignored. See > Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN allocation scheme. I= n > a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal would require multi- > ! (instance/topology/process) support, typically not available in > all DC devices and quite complex to configure and troubleshoot. > Using a traditional single flooding domain, which most DC designs > utilize, under certain failure conditions may pick up unwanted > ! lengthy paths, e.g., traversing multiple Tier-2 devices. > > o EBGP configuration that is implemented with minimal routing polic= y > is easier to troubleshoot for network reachability issues. In > *************** > *** 806,812 **** > loopback sessions are used even in the case of multiple links > between the same pair of nodes. > > ! o Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used so as to > avoid ASN conflicts. > > o A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos topology's Tier-1 > --- 806,812 ---- > loopback sessions are used even in the case of multiple links > between the same pair of nodes. > > ! o Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used to > avoid ASN conflicts. > > o A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos topology's Tier-1 > *************** > *** 815,821 **** > o A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2 devices in the > same cluster. > > ! o A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.g. ToR) in > this topology. > > > --- 815,821 ---- > o A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2 devices in the > same cluster. > > ! o A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.g., ToR) in > this topology. > > > *************** > *** 903,922 **** > > Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Octet ASNs > ([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASNs available, > ! see [IANA.AS]. Use of Four-Octet ASNs put additional protocol > ! complexity in the BGP implementation so should be considered against > the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4. Perhaps > more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP > implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC equipment. > ! When supported, ensure that implementations in use are able to remov= e > ! the Private Use ASNs if required for external connectivity > ! (Section 5.2.4). > > 5.2.3. Prefix Advertisement > > A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-point links and > associated prefixes. Advertising all of these routes into BGP may > ! create FIB overload conditions in the network devices. Advertising > these links also puts additional path computation stress on the BGP > control plane for little benefit. There are two possible solutions: > > --- 903,922 ---- > > Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Octet ASNs > ([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASNs available, > ! see [IANA.AS]. Use of Four-Octet ASNs puts additional protocol > ! complexity in the BGP implementation and should be balanced against > the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4. Perhaps > more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP > implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC equipment. > ! When supported, ensure that deployed implementations are able to > remove > ! the Private Use ASNs when external connectivity to these ASes is > ! required (Section 5.2.4). > > 5.2.3. Prefix Advertisement > > A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-point links and > associated prefixes. Advertising all of these routes into BGP may > ! create FIB overload in the network devices. Advertising > these links also puts additional path computation stress on the BGP > control plane for little benefit. There are two possible solutions: > > *************** > *** 925,951 **** > device, distant networks will automatically be reachable via the > advertising EBGP peer and do not require reachability to these > prefixes. However, this may complicate operations or monitoring: > ! e.g. using the popular "traceroute" tool will display IP addresse= s > that are not reachable. > > o Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize them on every > device. This requires an address allocation scheme such as > allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses per Tier-1 and > Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point interface addressing > ! to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplinks will be numbered out of Tier-= 1 > ! addressing and so forth). > > Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into BGP without > using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices. Summarizing > subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holing under a > ! single link failure (e.g. between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices) and > hence must be avoided. The use of peer links within the same tier t= o > resolve the black-holing problem by providing "bypass paths" is > undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mesh and waste o= f > ports on the devices. An alternative to the full-mesh of peer-links > ! would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g. a "ring" as described > in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and has very > ! limited bisection bandwidth, in addition requiring special tweaks to > > > > --- 925,951 ---- > device, distant networks will automatically be reachable via the > advertising EBGP peer and do not require reachability to these > prefixes. However, this may complicate operations or monitoring: > ! e.g., using the popular "traceroute" tool will display IP address= es > that are not reachable. > > o Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize them on every > device. This requires an address allocation scheme such as > allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses per Tier-1 and > Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point interface addressing > ! to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplink addresses will be allocated > ! from Tier-1 address blocks and so forth). > > Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into BGP without > using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices. Summarizing > subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holing under a > ! single link failure (e.g., between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices) and > hence must be avoided. The use of peer links within the same tier t= o > resolve the black-holing problem by providing "bypass paths" is > undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mesh and waste o= f > ports on the devices. An alternative to the full-mesh of peer-links > ! would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g., a "ring" as describe= d > in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and has very > ! limited bisectional bandwidth. Additionally requiring special tweaks > to > > > > *************** > *** 956,963 **** > > make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting every device into > an ASN on its own. Later in this document, Section 8.2 introduces a > ! less intrusive method for performing a limited form route > ! summarization in Clos networks and discusses it's associated trade- > offs. > > 5.2.4. External Connectivity > --- 956,963 ---- > > make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting every device into > an ASN on its own. Later in this document, Section 8.2 introduces a > ! less intrusive method for performing a limited form of route > ! summarization in Clos networks and discusses its associated trade- > offs. > > 5.2.4. External Connectivity > *************** > *** 972,985 **** > document. These devices have to perform a few special functions: > > o Hide network topology information when advertising paths to WAN > ! routers, i.e. remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996] from the AS_PATH > attribute. This is typically done to avoid ASN number collisions > between different data centers and also to provide a uniform > AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN ECMP to Anycast > prefixes originated in the topology. An implementation specific > BGP feature typically called "Remove Private AS" is commonly used > to accomplish this. Depending on implementation, the feature > ! should strip a contiguous sequence of Private Use ASNs found in > AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path to a neighbor. > This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data center numbering > are from the Private Use ranges. The process for stripping the > --- 972,985 ---- > document. These devices have to perform a few special functions: > > o Hide network topology information when advertising paths to WAN > ! routers, i.e., remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996] from the AS_PATH > attribute. This is typically done to avoid ASN number collisions > between different data centers and also to provide a uniform > AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN ECMP to Anycast > prefixes originated in the topology. An implementation specific > BGP feature typically called "Remove Private AS" is commonly used > to accomplish this. Depending on implementation, the feature > ! should strip a contiguous sequence of Private Use ASNs found in a= n > AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path to a neighbor. > This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data center numbering > are from the Private Use ranges. The process for stripping the > *************** > *** 998,1005 **** > to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resistance to a single- > link failure causing the black-holing of traffic. To prevent > black-holing in the situation when all of the EBGP sessions to th= e > ! WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given device it is more > ! desirable to take the "relaying" approach rather than introducing > the default route via complicated conditional route origination > schemes provided by some implementations [CONDITIONALROUTE]. > > --- 998,1005 ---- > to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resistance to a single- > link failure causing the black-holing of traffic. To prevent > black-holing in the situation when all of the EBGP sessions to th= e > ! WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given device, it is more > ! desirable to readvertise the default route rather than originatin= g > the default route via complicated conditional route origination > schemes provided by some implementations [CONDITIONALROUTE]. > > *************** > *** 1017,1023 **** > prefixes originated from within the data center in a fully routed > network design. For example, a network with 2000 Tier-3 devices wil= l > have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP, along with > ! the infrastructure or other prefixes. However, as discussed before, > the proposed network design does not allow for route summarization > due to the lack of peer links inside every tier. > > --- 1017,1023 ---- > prefixes originated from within the data center in a fully routed > network design. For example, a network with 2000 Tier-3 devices wil= l > have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP, along with > ! the infrastructure and link prefixes. However, as discussed before, > the proposed network design does not allow for route summarization > due to the lack of peer links inside every tier. > > *************** > *** 1028,1037 **** > o Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-mesh of physical > links or using any other "peer-mesh" topology, such as ring or > hub-and-spoke. Configure BGP accordingly on all Border Leafs to > ! exchange network reachability information - e.g. by adding a mesh > of IBGP sessions. The interconnecting peer links need to be > appropriately sized for traffic that will be present in the case > ! of a device or link failure underneath the Border Routers. > > o Tier-1 devices may have additional physical links provisioned > toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 devices from the > --- 1028,1037 ---- > o Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-mesh of physical > links or using any other "peer-mesh" topology, such as ring or > hub-and-spoke. Configure BGP accordingly on all Border Leafs to > ! exchange network reachability information, e.g., by adding a mesh > of IBGP sessions. The interconnecting peer links need to be > appropriately sized for traffic that will be present in the case > ! of a device or link failure in the mesh connecting the Border > Routers. > > o Tier-1 devices may have additional physical links provisioned > toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 devices from the > *************** > *** 1043,1049 **** > device compared with the other devices in the Clos. This also > reduces the number of ports available to "regular" Tier-2 switche= s > and hence the number of clusters that could be interconnected via > ! Tier-1 layer. > > If any of the above options are implemented, it is possible to > perform route summarization at the Border Routers toward the WAN > --- 1043,1049 ---- > device compared with the other devices in the Clos. This also > reduces the number of ports available to "regular" Tier-2 switche= s > and hence the number of clusters that could be interconnected via > ! the Tier-1 layer. > > If any of the above options are implemented, it is possible to > perform route summarization at the Border Routers toward the WAN > *************** > *** 1071,1079 **** > ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by a Clos > topology. Effectively, every lower-tier device will use all of its > directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traffic destined > ! to the same IP prefix. Number of ECMP paths between any two Tier-3 > devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the devices in the > ! middle stage (Tier-1). For example, Figure 5 illustrates the > topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach servers X and > Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1, 2, 3, and 4 > respectively. > --- 1071,1079 ---- > ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by a Clos > topology. Effectively, every lower-tier device will use all of its > directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traffic destined > ! to the same IP prefix. The number of ECMP paths between any two > Tier-3 > devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the devices in the > ! middle stage (Tier-1). For example, Figure 5 illustrates a > topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach servers X and > Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1, 2, 3, and 4 > respectively. > *************** > *** 1105,1116 **** > > The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementation must suppor= t > multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devices directly > ! attached at any point in the topology in upstream or downstream > direction. Normally, this number does not exceed half of the ports > found on a device in the topology. For example, an ECMP fan-out of > 32 would be required when building a Clos network using 64-port > devices. The Border Routers may need to have wider fan-out to be > ! able to connect to multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summarizatio= n > at Border Router level is implemented as described in Section 5.2.5. > If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP, logical link- > grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to provide > --- 1105,1116 ---- > > The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementation must suppor= t > multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devices directly > ! attached at any point in the topology in the upstream or downstream > direction. Normally, this number does not exceed half of the ports > found on a device in the topology. For example, an ECMP fan-out of > 32 would be required when building a Clos network using 64-port > devices. The Border Routers may need to have wider fan-out to be > ! able to connect to a multitude of Tier-1 devices if route > summarization > at Border Router level is implemented as described in Section 5.2.5. > If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP, logical link- > grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to provide > *************** > *** 1122,1131 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP followed by Layer 2 ECMP) to > compensate for fan-out limitations. Such approach, however, > increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entropy will be > ! available to the second stage of ECMP. > > Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from an ECMP > perspective if they match up to and including step (e) in > --- 1122,1131 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP coupled with Layer 2 ECMP) to > compensate for fan-out limitations. Such approach, however, > increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entropy will be > ! available at the second stage of ECMP. > > Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from an ECMP > perspective if they match up to and including step (e) in > *************** > *** 1148,1154 **** > perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have BGP paths wit= h > different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the same AS_PATH > attribute lengths. Therefore, BGP implementations must support load > ! sharing over above-mentioned paths. This feature is sometimes known > as "multipath relax" or "multipath multiple-as" and effectively > allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring ASNs if all > other attributes are equal as already described in the previous > --- 1148,1154 ---- > perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have BGP paths wit= h > different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the same AS_PATH > attribute lengths. Therefore, BGP implementations must support load > ! sharing over the above-mentioned paths. This feature is sometimes > known > as "multipath relax" or "multipath multiple-as" and effectively > allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring ASNs if all > other attributes are equal as already described in the previous > *************** > *** 1182,1199 **** > > It is often desirable to have the hashing function used for ECMP to > be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact on flow to > ! next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or removed to ECM= P > group. This could be used if the network device is used as a load > balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - in this case, > ! losing or adding a destination will not have detrimental effect of > currently established flows. One particular recommendation on > implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992], though > other implementations are possible. This functionality could be > naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact of the next- > hop changes being proportional to the weight of the given next-hop. > The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on hardware > ! resource utilization, as typically more space is required to > ! implement a consistent-hashing region. > > 7. Routing Convergence Properties > > --- 1182,1199 ---- > > It is often desirable to have the hashing function used for ECMP to > be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact on flow to > ! next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or removed to an > ECMP > group. This could be used if the network device is used as a load > balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - in this case, > ! losing or adding a destination will not have a detrimental effect on > currently established flows. One particular recommendation on > implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992], though > other implementations are possible. This functionality could be > naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact of the next- > hop changes being proportional to the weight of the given next-hop. > The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on hardware > ! resource utilization, as typically more resources (e.g., TCAM space) > ! are required to implement a consistent-hashing function. > > 7. Routing Convergence Properties > > *************** > *** 1209,1224 **** > driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes. The > proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the remaining > mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are BGP keep-alive > ! process (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link-failure > triggers. > > Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in high > ! convergence delays, in the order of multiple seconds (on many BGP > implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer value is > three seconds). However, many BGP implementations can shut down > local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "link down" event for > the outgoing interface used for BGP peering. This feature is > ! sometimes called as "fast fallover". Since links in modern data > centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connections, a > physical interface failure is often detected in milliseconds and > subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence. > --- 1209,1224 ---- > driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes. The > proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the remaining > mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are BGP keep-alive > ! time-out (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link-failur= e > triggers. > > Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in high > ! convergence delays, on the order of multiple seconds (on many BGP > implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer value is > three seconds). However, many BGP implementations can shut down > local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "link down" event for > the outgoing interface used for BGP peering. This feature is > ! sometimes called "fast fallover". Since links in modern data > centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connections, a > physical interface failure is often detected in milliseconds and > subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence. > *************** > *** 1236,1242 **** > > Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional Forwarding > Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failure detection > ! and fault signaling to the BGP process. However, use of either of > these presents additional requirements to vendor software and > possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1. Until recently with > [RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single member link > --- 1236,1242 ---- > > Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional Forwarding > Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failure detection > ! and fault signaling to the BGP process. However, the use of either = of > these presents additional requirements to vendor software and > possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1. Until recently with > [RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single member link > *************** > *** 1245,1251 **** > > 7.2. Event Propagation Timing > > ! In the proposed design the impact of BGP Minimum Route Advertisement > Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]) should be > considered. Per the standard it is required for BGP implementations > to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at least MRAI > --- 1245,1251 ---- > > 7.2. Event Propagation Timing > > ! In the proposed design the impact of the BGP Minimum Route > Advertisement > Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]) should be > considered. Per the standard it is required for BGP implementations > to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at least MRAI > *************** > *** 1258,1270 **** > In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has either one path > (Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-2 in the same > cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix, where N is = a > ! significantly large number, e.g. N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-out to the ne= xt > Tier). Therefore, if a link fails to another device from which a > ! path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g. from > perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 device), or > ! the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g. from perspectiv= e > of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch). In the former > ! case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate un-delayed and > trigger re-convergence on affected devices. In the latter case, the > best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group correspondin= g > to the new next-hop set changed. If the BGP path was the best-path > --- 1258,1270 ---- > In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has either one path > (Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-2 in the same > cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix, where N is = a > ! significantly large number, e.g., N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-out to the n= ext > Tier). Therefore, if a link fails to another device from which a > ! path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g., from t= he > perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 device), or > ! the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g., from perspecti= ve > of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch). In the former > ! case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate without delay a= nd > trigger re-convergence on affected devices. In the latter case, the > best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group correspondin= g > to the new next-hop set changed. If the BGP path was the best-path > *************** > *** 1279,1285 **** > situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device fails, the > Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upstream Tier-1 > devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes. The Tier-1 devices, in > ! turn, will relay those messages to all downstream Tier-2 devices > (except for the originator). Tier-2 devices other than the one > originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstream Tier-1 > > --- 1279,1285 ---- > situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device fails, the > Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upstream Tier-1 > devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes. The Tier-1 devices, in > ! turn, will relay these messages to all downstream Tier-2 devices > (except for the originator). Tier-2 devices other than the one > originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstream Tier-1 > > *************** > *** 1307,1313 **** > features that vendors include to reduce the control plane impact of > rapidly flapping prefixes. However, due to issues described with > false positives in these implementations especially under such > ! "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to turn this feature on i= n > this design. More background and issues with "route flap dampening" > and possible implementation changes that could affect this are well > described in [RFC7196]. > --- 1307,1313 ---- > features that vendors include to reduce the control plane impact of > rapidly flapping prefixes. However, due to issues described with > false positives in these implementations especially under such > ! "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to enable this feature in > this design. More background and issues with "route flap dampening" > and possible implementation changes that could affect this are well > described in [RFC7196]. > *************** > *** 1316,1324 **** > > A network is declared to converge in response to a failure once all > devices within the failure impact scope are notified of the event an= d > ! have re-calculated their RIB's and consequently updated their FIB's. > Larger failure impact scope typically means slower convergence since > ! more devices have to be notified, and additionally results in a less > stable network. In this section we describe BGP's advantages over > link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact scope for a > Clos topology. > --- 1316,1324 ---- > > A network is declared to converge in response to a failure once all > devices within the failure impact scope are notified of the event an= d > ! have re-calculated their RIBs and consequently updated their FIBs. > Larger failure impact scope typically means slower convergence since > ! more devices have to be notified, and results in a less > stable network. In this section we describe BGP's advantages over > link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact scope for a > Clos topology. > *************** > *** 1327,1335 **** > the best path from the point of view of the local router is sent to > neighbors. As such, some failures are masked if the local node can > immediately find a backup path and does not have to send any updates > ! further. Notice that in the worst case ALL devices in a data center > topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or update the > ! ECMP groups in the FIB. However, many failures will not result in > such a wide impact. There are two main failure types where impact > scope is reduced: > > --- 1327,1335 ---- > the best path from the point of view of the local router is sent to > neighbors. As such, some failures are masked if the local node can > immediately find a backup path and does not have to send any updates > ! further. Notice that in the worst case, all devices in a data cente= r > topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or update the > ! ECMP groups in their FIBs. However, many failures will not result i= n > such a wide impact. There are two main failure types where impact > scope is reduced: > > *************** > *** 1357,1367 **** > > o Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all Tier-2 devices > directly attached to the failed node will have to update their > ! ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from non-local cluster. The > Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in the re-convergence > process, but may receive "implicit withdraws" as described above. > > ! Even though in case of such failures multiple IP prefixes will have > to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that ALL of these > prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device. Therefore, in > the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, only a single > --- 1357,1367 ---- > > o Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all Tier-2 devices > directly attached to the failed node will have to update their > ! ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from a non-local cluster. The > Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in the re-convergence > process, but may receive "implicit withdraws" as described above. > > ! Even in the case of such failures, multiple IP prefixes will have > to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that ALL of these > prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device. Therefore, in > the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, only a single > *************** > *** 1375,1381 **** > possible with the proposed design, since using this technique may > create routing black-holes as mentioned previously. Therefore, the > worst control plane failure impact scope is the network as a whole, > ! for instance in a case of a link failure between Tier-2 and Tier-3 > devices. The amount of impacted prefixes in this case would be much > less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers of a Clos > network topology. The property of having such large failure scope i= s > --- 1375,1381 ---- > possible with the proposed design, since using this technique may > create routing black-holes as mentioned previously. Therefore, the > worst control plane failure impact scope is the network as a whole, > ! for instance in thecase of a link failure between Tier-2 and Tier-3 > devices. The amount of impacted prefixes in this case would be much > less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers of a Clos > network topology. The property of having such large failure scope i= s > *************** > *** 1384,1397 **** > > 7.5. Routing Micro-Loops > > ! When a downstream device, e.g. Tier-2 device, loses all paths for a > prefix, it normally has the default route pointing toward the > upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device. As a result, it is > ! possible to get in the situation when Tier-2 switch loses a prefix, > ! but Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 device, > ! which results in transient micro-loop, since Tier-1 switch will keep > passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 device, and > ! Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route. This > micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes the upstream > device to fully update its forwarding tables. > > --- 1384,1397 ---- > > 7.5. Routing Micro-Loops > > ! When a downstream device, e.g., Tier-2 device, loses all paths for = a > prefix, it normally has the default route pointing toward the > upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device. As a result, it is > ! possible to get in the situation where a Tier-2 switch loses a prefi= x, > ! but a Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 device= , > ! which results in transient micro-loop, since the Tier-1 switch will > keep > passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 device, and > ! the Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route. This > micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes the upstream > device to fully update its forwarding tables. > > *************** > *** 1402,1408 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! To minimize impact of the micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 switches ca= n > be configured with static "discard" or "null" routes that will be > more specific than the default route for prefixes missing during > network convergence. For Tier-2 switches, the discard route should > --- 1402,1408 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! To minimize the impact of such micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 > switches can > be configured with static "discard" or "null" routes that will be > more specific than the default route for prefixes missing during > network convergence. For Tier-2 switches, the discard route should > *************** > *** 1417,1423 **** > > 8.1. Third-party Route Injection > > ! BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e. directly attached, BGP speaker > to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meeting REQ5. > This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP session with some > or even all devices in the topology. Furthermore, BGP diverse path > --- 1417,1423 ---- > > 8.1. Third-party Route Injection > > ! BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e., directly attached, BGP speaker > to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meeting REQ5. > This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP session with some > or even all devices in the topology. Furthermore, BGP diverse path > *************** > *** 1427,1433 **** > implementation. Unfortunately, in many implementations ADD-PATH has > been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use cases it was > originally optimized for, which limits the "third-party" peering to > ! IBGP only, if the feature is used. > > To implement route injection in the proposed design, a third-party > BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, injecting the > --- 1427,1433 ---- > implementation. Unfortunately, in many implementations ADD-PATH has > been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use cases it was > originally optimized for, which limits the "third-party" peering to > ! IBGP only. > > To implement route injection in the proposed design, a third-party > BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, injecting the > *************** > *** 1442,1453 **** > As mentioned previously, route summarization is not possible within > the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network susceptible to > route black-holing under single link failures. The main problem is > ! the limited number of redundant paths between network elements, e.g. > there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 and Tier-3 > devices. However, some operators may find route aggregation > desirable to improve control plane stability. > > ! If planning on using any technique to summarize within the topology > modeling of the routing behavior and potential for black-holing > should be done not only for single or multiple link failures, but > > --- 1442,1453 ---- > As mentioned previously, route summarization is not possible within > the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network susceptible to > route black-holing under single link failures. The main problem is > ! the limited number of redundant paths between network elements, e.g.= , > there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 and Tier-3 > devices. However, some operators may find route aggregation > desirable to improve control plane stability. > > ! If any technique to summarize within the topology is planned, > modeling of the routing behavior and potential for black-holing > should be done not only for single or multiple link failures, but > > *************** > *** 1458,1468 **** > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures if the > topology extends beyond a physical location. Simple modeling can be > done by checking the reachability on devices doing summarization > under the condition of a link or pathway failure between a set of > ! devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers if external > connectivity is present. > > Route summarization would be possible with a small modification to > --- 1458,1468 ---- > Internet-Draft draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc March 201= 6 > > > ! also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures when the > topology extends beyond a physical location. Simple modeling can be > done by checking the reachability on devices doing summarization > under the condition of a link or pathway failure between a set of > ! devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers when external > connectivity is present. > > Route summarization would be possible with a small modification to > *************** > *** 1519,1544 **** > cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only a single pat= h > down to this prefix. It would require dual-homed servers to > accomplish that. Also note that this design is only resilient to > ! single link failure. It is possible for a double link failure to > isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specific Tier-3 > device, thus causing a routing black-hole. > > ! A result of the proposed topology modification would be reduction of > Tier-1 devices port capacity. This limits the maximum number of > attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the maximum DC > network size. A larger network would require different Tier-1 > devices that have higher port density to implement this change. > > Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link failures. Since > ! three are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the link > between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all traffic that wa= s > taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path. This will > ! result in doubling of link utilization on the remaining link. > > 8.2.2. Simple Virtual Aggregation > > A completely different approach to route summarization is possible, > ! provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB pressure, while > allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing information. > Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases multiple > prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the same set of the > --- 1519,1544 ---- > cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only a single pat= h > down to this prefix. It would require dual-homed servers to > accomplish that. Also note that this design is only resilient to > ! single link failures. It is possible for a double link failure to > isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specific Tier-3 > device, thus causing a routing black-hole. > > ! A result of the proposed topology modification would be a reduction = of > Tier-1 devices port capacity. This limits the maximum number of > attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the maximum DC > network size. A larger network would require different Tier-1 > devices that have higher port density to implement this change. > > Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link failures. Since > ! there are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the link > between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all traffic that wa= s > taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path. This will > ! result in doubling the link utilization of the remaining link. > > 8.2.2. Simple Virtual Aggregation > > A completely different approach to route summarization is possible, > ! provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB size, while > allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing information. > Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases multiple > prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the same set of the > *************** > *** 1550,1563 **** > [RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in the FIB, > ignoring more specific routes if they share the same next-hop set. > For example, under normal network conditions, only the default route > ! need to be programmed into FIB. > > Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with summary > ! prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's prefixes the > same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, and, by > induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different clusters. These > summary routes should still allow for more specific prefixes to leak > ! to Tier-1 devices, to enable for detection of mismatches in the next= - > hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-hop set for a > specific prefix. > > --- 1550,1563 ---- > [RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in the FIB, > ignoring more specific routes if they share the same next-hop set. > For example, under normal network conditions, only the default route > ! needs to be programmed into FIB. > > Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with summary > ! prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's prefixes, th= e > same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, and, by > induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different clusters. These > summary routes should still allow for more specific prefixes to leak > ! to Tier-1 devices, to enable detection of mismatches in the next- > hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-hop set for a > specific prefix. > > *************** > *** 1571,1584 **** > > > Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce the amount of > ! control plane state (i.e. BGP UPDATEs/BGP LocRIB sizing), but only > ! allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by spotting more specific > ! prefixes that share their next-hops with less specifics. > > 8.3. ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading > > This section discusses some operational aspects of not advertising > ! point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously outlined as an > option in Section 5.2.3. The operational impact of this decision > could be seen when using the well-known "traceroute" tool. > Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will be the link's > --- 1571,1585 ---- > > > Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce the amount of > ! control plane state (i.e., BGP UPDATEs/BGP Loc-RIB size), but only > ! allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by detecting more specifi= c > ! prefixes that share their next-hop set with a subsuming less specifi= c > ! prefix. > > 8.3. ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading > > This section discusses some operational aspects of not advertising > ! point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously identified as an > option in Section 5.2.3. The operational impact of this decision > could be seen when using the well-known "traceroute" tool. > Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will be the link's > *************** > *** 1587,1605 **** > complicated. > > One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS subsystem to > ! create the "reverse" entries for the IP addresses of the same device > ! pointing to the same name. The connectivity then can be made by > ! resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of the devices, e.g. > its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into BGP. > However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem, which may b= e > unavailable during an outage. > > Another option is to make the network device perform IP address > masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses of the > ! appropriate ICMP messages sent off of the device with the "primary" > IP address of the device. Specifically, the ICMP Destination > Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable) and ICMP Tim= e > ! Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are involved in proper working of > the "traceroute" tool. With this modification, the "traceroute" > probes sent to the devices will always be sent back with the > "primary" IP address as the source, allowing the operator to discove= r > --- 1588,1606 ---- > complicated. > > One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS subsystem to > ! create the "reverse" entries for these point-to-point IP addresses > pointing > ! to a the same name as the loopback address. The connectivity then > can be made by > ! resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of the devices, e.g.= , > its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into BGP. > However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem, which may b= e > unavailable during an outage. > > Another option is to make the network device perform IP address > masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses of the > ! appropriate ICMP messages sent by the device with the "primary" > IP address of the device. Specifically, the ICMP Destination > Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable) and ICMP Tim= e > ! Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are required for correct operation = of > the "traceroute" tool. With this modification, the "traceroute" > probes sent to the devices will always be sent back with the > "primary" IP address as the source, allowing the operator to discove= r > > Thanks, > Acee > > --001a1141b2662f2f3005317d48b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,

Thanks very much for your thor= ough review!

Authors and Shepherd,
Could= you please work to address these comments and submit an updated draft?
I still need to do my AD review and hope to have this to the IESG te= lechat on May 19,
which means getting it into IETF Last Call this= week.

Thanks,
Alia

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 1:= 13 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate,
please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/a= rea/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last<= br> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc-09.txt
Reviewer: Acee Lindem
Review Date: 4/25/16
IETF LC End Date: Not started
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document is basically ready for publication, but has som= e minor
issues and nits that should be resolved prior to publication.

Comments:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document starts with the requirements for an MSDC routing= and then
provides an overview of Clos data topologies and data center network
design. This overview attempts to cover a lot of a material in a very
small amount of text. While not completely successful, the overview
provides a lot of good information and references. The bulk of the
document covers the usage of EBGP as the sole data center routing protocol<= br> and other aspects of the routing design including ECMP, summarization
issues, and convergence. These sections provide a very good guide for
using EBGP in a Clos data center and an excellent discussion of the
deployment issues (based on real deployment experience).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The technical content of the document is excellent. The reada= bility
could be improved by breaking up some of the run-on sentences and with the<= br> suggested editorial changes (see Nits below).


Major Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have no major issues with the document.

Minor Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 4.2: Can an informative reference be added for Direct= Server
Return (DSR)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2.4 and 7.4: Define precisely what is meant by &quo= t;scale-out"
topology somewhere in the document.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2.5: Can you add a backward reference to the discus= sion of
"lack of peer links inside every peer=E2=80=9D? Also, it would be good= to describe
how this would allow for summarization and under what failure conditions. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 7.4: Should you add a reference to
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-= pic-00.txt to the penultimate
paragraph in this section?

Nits:

***************
*** 143,149 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network stability so that a small group of people can e= ffectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support a significantly sized network.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimentation and extensive testing has shown that Externa= l BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routin= g protocol for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these type of data center applications.=C2=A0 This is i= n contrast with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more traditional DC designs, which may se simple tree t= opologies and
--- 143,149 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network stability so that a sall group of people can ef= fectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support a significantly sized network.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimentation and extensive testing have shown that Extern= al BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(EBGP) [RFC4271] is well suited as a stand-alone routin= g protocol for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these type of data center applications.=C2=A0 This is i= n contrast with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more traditional DC designs, which may use simple tree = topologies and
***************
*** 178,191 ****
=C2=A0 2.1.=C2=A0 Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary requirement when building an interconnectio= n network for
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 large number of servers is to accommodate application bandwi= dth and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0latency requirements.=C2=A0 Until recently it was quite= common to see the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0majority of traffic entering and leaving the data cente= r, commonly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0referred to as "north-south" traffic.=C2=A0 T= raditional "tree" topologies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with hi= gh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0oversubscription ratios between the layers of the netwo= rk.=C2=A0 If more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling u= p" the network
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g. by upgrading the device's linecards or fa= brics or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replacing the device with one with higher port density.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Today many large-scale data centers host applications g= enerating
--- 178,191 ----
=C2=A0 2.1.=C2=A0 Bandwidth and Traffic Patterns

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary requirement when building an interconnectio= n network for
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a large number of servers is to accommodate application band= width and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0latency requirements.=C2=A0 Until recently it was quite= common to see the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0majority of traffic entering and leaving the data cente= r, commonly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0referred to as "north-south" traffic.=C2=A0 T= raditional "tree" topologies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0were sufficient to accommodate such flows, even with hi= gh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0oversubscription ratios between the layers of the netwo= rk.=C2=A0 If more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth was required, it was added by "scaling u= p" the network
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g., by upgrading the device's linecards or f= abrics or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replacing the device with one with higher port density.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Today many large-scale data centers host applications g= enerating
***************
*** 195,201 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters nee= ded by certain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications, or virtual machine migrations.=C2=A0 Scal= ing traditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands become= s either too
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g. po= rt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0density in a switch.

=C2=A0 2.2.=C2=A0 CAPEX Minimization
--- 195,201 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[HADOOP], massive data replication between clusters nee= ded by certain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications, or virtual machine migrations.=C2=A0 Scal= ing traditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tree topologies to match these bandwidth demands become= s either too
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expensive or impossible due to physical limitations, e.g., p= ort
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0density in a switch.

=C2=A0 2.2.=C2=A0 CAPEX Minimization
***************
*** 209,215 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Unifying all network elements, preferably using= the same hardware
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type or even the same device.=C2=A0 This allows= for volume pricing on
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and spar= ing costs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Driving costs down using competitive pressures,= by introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 multiple network equipment vendors.
--- 209,215 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Unifying all network elements, preferably using= the same hardware
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type or even the same device.=C2=A0 This allows= for volume pricing on
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bulk purchases and reduced maintenance and inve= ntory costs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Driving costs down using competitive pressures,= by introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 multiple network equipment vendors.
***************
*** 234,244 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0minimizes software issue-related failures.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) m= inimization is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reducing size of failure domains in the network.=C2=A0 Ether= net networks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast tra= ffic storms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that can have a dramatic impact on network performance = and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0availability.=C2=A0 The use of a fully routed design si= gnificantly reduces
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the size of the data plane failure domains - i.e. limits the= m to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lowest level in the network hierarchy.=C2=A0 However, s= uch designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduce the problem of distributed control plane fail= ures.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0observation calls for simpler and less control plane pr= otocols to
--- 234,244 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0minimizes software issue-related failures.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An important aspect of Operational Expenditure (OPEX) m= inimization is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reducing the size of failure domains in the network.=C2=A0 E= thernet
networks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are known to be susceptible to broadcast or unicast tra= ffic storms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that can have a dramatic impact on network performance = and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0availability.=C2=A0 The use of a fully routed design si= gnificantly reduces
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the size of the data plane failure domains, i.e., limits the= m to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lowest level in the network hierarchy.=C2=A0 However, s= uch designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduce the problem of distributed control plane fail= ures.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0observation calls for simpler and less control plane pr= otocols to
***************
*** 253,259 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performed by network devices.=C2=A0 Traditionally, load= balancers are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding= path.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing = traffic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 demand.=C2=A0 A preferable solution would be able to scale l= oad balancing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distributing incoming traffic across these nodes.=C2=A0= In situations like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastru= cture itself
--- 253,259 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performed by network devices.=C2=A0 Traditionally, load= balancers are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployed as dedicated devices in the traffic forwarding= path.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problem arises in scaling load balancers under growing = traffic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 demand.=C2=A0 A preferable solution would be able to scale t= he load
balancing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer horizontally, by adding more of the uniform nodes= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distributing incoming traffic across these nodes.=C2=A0= In situations like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this, an ideal choice would be to use network infrastru= cture itself
***************
*** 305,311 ****
=C2=A0 3.1.=C2=A0 Traditional DC Topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the networking industry, a common design choice for = data centers
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 typically look like a (upside down) tree with redundant upli= nks and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/dis= tribution and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access layers (see Figure 1).=C2=A0 To accommodate band= width demands, each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has= higher port
--- 305,311 ----
=C2=A0 3.1.=C2=A0 Traditional DC Topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the networking industry, a common design choice for = data centers
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 typically look like an (upside down) tree with redundant upl= inks and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three layers of hierarchy namely; core, aggregation/dis= tribution and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access layers (see Figure 1).=C2=A0 To accommodate band= width demands, each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0higher layer, from server towards DC egress or WAN, has= higher port
***************
*** 373,379 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, f= or example, [INTERCON]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and [ALFARES2008]).=C2=A0 This topology features an odd= number of stages
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of= uniform
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g. network switches with the same port count.=C2= =A0 Therefore,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and f= acilitates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ2.=C2=A0 See Figure 2 below for an example of a fold= ed 3-stage Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tr= acing a packet
--- 373,379 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology, sometimes called "fat-tree" (see, f= or example, [INTERCON]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and [ALFARES2008]).=C2=A0 This topology features an odd= number of stages
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(sometimes known as dimensions) and is commonly made of= uniform
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 elements, e.g., network switches with the same port count.= =C2=A0 Therefore,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the choice of folded Clos topology satisfies REQ1 and f= acilitates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ2.=C2=A0 See Figure 2 below for an example of a fold= ed 3-stage Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology (3 stages counting Tier-2 stage twice, when tr= acing a packet
***************
*** 460,466 ****
=C2=A0 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Scaling the Clos topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing netw= ork element
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port density or adding more stages, e.g. moving to a 5-stage= Clos, as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0illustrated in Figure 3 below:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-1 --- 460,466 ----
=C2=A0 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Scaling the Clos topology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology can be scaled either by increasing netw= ork element
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port density or adding more stages, e.g., moving to a 5-stag= e Clos, as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0illustrated in Figure 3 below:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-1 ***************
*** 523,529 ****
=C2=A0 3.2.4.=C2=A0 Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a data center network size is small, it is possible = to reduce the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of Clos topology by a= factor
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of two.=C2=A0 To understand how this could be done, tak= e Tier-1 as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example.=C2=A0 Every Tier-2 device connects to a single= group of Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 If half of the ports on each of the Tier= -1 devices are not
--- 523,529 ----
=C2=A0 3.2.4.=C2=A0 Managing the Size of Clos Topology Tiers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a data center network size is small, it is possible = to reduce the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of switches in Tier-1 or Tier-2 of a Clos topology by= a factor
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of two.=C2=A0 To understand how this could be done, tak= e Tier-1 as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example.=C2=A0 Every Tier-2 device connects to a single= group of Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 If half of the ports on each of the Tier= -1 devices are not
***************
*** 574,580 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free to= pology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0creation, typically utilizing variants of the tradition= al DC topology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 At the time, many DC sw= itches either did
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support Layer 3 routed protocols or supported it with ad= ditional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0licensing fees, which played a part in the design choic= e.=C2=A0 Although
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0many enhancements have been made through the introducti= on of Rapid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of=
--- 574,580 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally defined in [IEEE8021D-1990] for loop free to= pology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0creation, typically utilizing variants of the tradition= al DC topology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 At the time, many DC sw= itches either did
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support Layer 3 routing protocols or supported them with=
additional
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0licensing fees, which played a part in the design choic= e.=C2=A0 Although
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0many enhancements have been made through the introducti= on of Rapid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) in the latest revision of=
***************
*** 599,605 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as the backup for loop prevention.=C2=A0 The major down= sides of this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past= two in most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, lack of standards based implementation= s, and added
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 failure domain risk of keeping state between the devices.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It should be noted that building large, horizontally sc= alable, Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02 only networks without STP is possible recently throug= h the
--- 599,605 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as the backup for loop prevention.=C2=A0 The major down= sides of this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approach are the lack of ability to scale linearly past= two in most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, lack of standards based implementation= s, and added
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the failure domain risk of syncing state between the devices= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It should be noted that building large, horizontally sc= alable, Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02 only networks without STP is possible recently throug= h the
***************
*** 621,631 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M= -LAG approach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast d= omain, that is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethern= et based
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solutions.=C2=A0 Later TRILL extensions have been proposed t= o solve the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this problem statement primarily based on the approache= s outlined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of a= vailable
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fa= bric,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 therefore TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ3= , and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4.

=C2=A0 4.2.=C2=A0 Hybrid L2/L3 Designs
--- 621,631 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finally, neither the base TRILL specification nor the M= -LAG approach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0totally eliminate the problem of the shared broadcast d= omain, that is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so detrimental to the operations of any Layer 2, Ethern= et based
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution.=C2=A0 Later TRILL extensions have been proposed to= solve the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this problem statement primarily based on the approache= s outlined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7067], but this even further limits the number of a= vailable
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperable implementations that can be used to build a fa= bric.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Therefore, TRILL based designs have issues meeting REQ2, REQ= 3, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4.

=C2=A0 4.2.=C2=A0 Hybrid L2/L3 Designs
***************
*** 635,641 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and= dividing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains.=C2=A0 Th= is design has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of co= mplexity in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network managing multiple protocols.=C2=A0 For the follo= wing reasons,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (T= ier-3) or both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the= network:

--- 635,641 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in either the Tier-1 or Tier-2 parts of the network and= dividing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 2 domain into numerous, smaller domains.=C2=A0 Th= is design has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowed data centers to scale up, but at the cost of co= mplexity in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the managing multiple network protocols.=C2=A0 For the follo= wing reasons,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operators have retained Layer 2 in either the access (T= ier-3) or both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access and aggregation (Tier-3 and Tier-2) parts of the= network:

***************
*** 644,650 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Seamless mobility for virtual machines that req= uire the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 preservation of IP addresses when a virtual mac= hine moves to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different Tier-3 switch.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets ar= e required for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data center.
--- 644,650 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Seamless mobility for virtual machines that req= uire the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 preservation of IP addresses when a virtual mac= hine moves to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a different Tier-3 switch.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Simplified IP addressing =3D less IP subnets ar= e required for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data center.
***************
*** 679,686 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and = larger size
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network= scalability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and stability.=C2=A0 Application providers and network = operators continue
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to also develop new solutions to meet some of the requiremen= ts that
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 previously have driven large Layer 2 domains by using variou= s overlay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or tunneling techniques.

=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 Routing Protocol Selection and Design
--- 679,686 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption in networks where large Layer 2 adjacency and = larger size
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Layer 3 subnets are not as critical compared to network= scalability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and stability.=C2=A0 Application providers and network = operators continue
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to develop new solutions to meet some of the requirements th= at
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 previously had driven large Layer 2 domains using various ov= erlay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or tunneling techniques.

=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 Routing Protocol Selection and Design
***************
*** 700,706 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter= -domain
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 routing on the Internet and has wide support from both vendo= r and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service provider communities, it is not generally deplo= yed as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0primary routing protocol within the data center for a n= umber of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons (some of which are interrelated):
--- 700,706 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Although EBGP is the protocol used for almost all inter= -domain
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 routing in the Internet and has wide support from both vendo= r and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service provider communities, it is not generally deplo= yed as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0primary routing protocol within the data center for a n= umber of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons (some of which are interrelated):
***************
*** 741,754 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 state IGPs.=C2=A0 Since every BGP router calcul= ates and propagates only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the best-path selected, a network failure is ma= sked as soon as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exis= ts when highly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled= with EBGP only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design.=C2=A0 In contrast, the event propagatio= n scope of a link-state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failur= e type.=C2=A0 In this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4.=C2=A0 It i= s also worth mentioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that all widely deployed link-state IGPs featur= e periodic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0refreshes of routing information, even if this = rarely causes
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact to modern router control planes, while B= GP does not expire
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing state.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved)= next-hops.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECM= P based or
--- 741,754 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 state IGPs.=C2=A0 Since every BGP router calcul= ates and propagates only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the best-path selected, a network failure is ma= sked as soon as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP speaker finds an alternate path, which exis= ts when highly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0symmetric topologies, such as Clos, are coupled= with an EBGP only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design.=C2=A0 In contrast, the event propagatio= n scope of a link-state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IGP is an entire area, regardless of the failur= e type.=C2=A0 In this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way, BGP better meets REQ3 and REQ4.=C2=A0 It i= s also worth mentioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that all widely deployed link-state IGPs featur= e periodic
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0refreshes of routing information while BGP does= not expire
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing state, although this rarely impacts mod= ern router control
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0planes.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 BGP supports third-party (recursively resolved)= next-hops.=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for manipulating multipath to be non-ECM= P based or
***************
*** 765,775 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controlled and complex unwanted paths will be i= gnored.=C2=A0 See
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN all= ocation scheme.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal wo= uld require multi-
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(instance/topology/processes) support, typicall= y not available in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all DC devices and quite complex to configure a= nd troubleshoot.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using a traditional single flooding domain, whi= ch most DC designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilize, under certain failure conditions may p= ick up unwanted
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lengthy paths, e.g. traversing multiple Tier-2 = devices.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 EBGP configuration that is implemented with min= imal routing policy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is easier to troubleshoot for network reachabil= ity issues.=C2=A0 In
--- 765,775 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controlled and complex unwanted paths will be i= gnored.=C2=A0 See
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.2 for an example of a working ASN all= ocation scheme.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a link-state IGP accomplishing the same goal wo= uld require multi-
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(instance/topology/process) support, typically = not available in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all DC devices and quite complex to configure a= nd troubleshoot.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using a traditional single flooding domain, whi= ch most DC designs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilize, under certain failure conditions may p= ick up unwanted
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lengthy paths, e.g., traversing multiple Tier-2= devices.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 EBGP configuration that is implemented with min= imal routing policy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is easier to troubleshoot for network reachabil= ity issues.=C2=A0 In
***************
*** 806,812 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loopback sessions are used even in the case of = multiple links
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the same pair of nodes.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used= so as to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 avoid ASN conflicts.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos to= pology's Tier-1
--- 806,812 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loopback sessions are used even in the case of = multiple links
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the same pair of nodes.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Private Use ASNs from the range 64512-65534 are used= to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 avoid ASN conflicts.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A single ASN is allocated to all of the Clos to= pology's Tier-1
***************
*** 815,821 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2= devices in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same cluster.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.= g.=C2=A0 ToR) in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this topology.


--- 815,821 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to each set of Tier-2= devices in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same cluster.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A unique ASN is allocated to every Tier-3 device (e.= g.,=C2=A0 ToR) in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this topology.


***************
*** 903,922 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Oc= tet ASNs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASN= s available,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see [IANA.AS].=C2=A0 Use of Four-Octet ASNs put additional protocol=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 complexity in the BGP implementation so should be considered= against
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4= .=C2=A0 Perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC= equipment.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When supported, ensure that implementations in use are able = to remove
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Private Use ASNs if required for external connectivity !=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Section 5.2.4).

=C2=A0 5.2.3.=C2=A0 Prefix Advertisement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-poi= nt links and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated prefixes.=C2=A0 Advertising all of these rou= tes into BGP may
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create FIB overload conditions in the network devices.=C2=A0= Advertising
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these links also puts additional path computation stres= s on the BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane for little benefit.=C2=A0 There are two p= ossible solutions:

--- 903,922 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another solution to this problem would be using Four-Oc= tet ASNs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0([RFC6793]), where there are additional Private Use ASN= s available,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see [IANA.AS].=C2=A0 Use of Four-Octet ASNs puts additional protoco= l
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 complexity in the BGP implementation and should be balanced = against
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the complexity of re-use when considering REQ3 and REQ4= .=C2=A0 Perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more importantly, they are not yet supported by all BGP=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations, which may limit vendor selection of DC= equipment.
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When supported, ensure that deployed implementations are abl= e to
remove
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Private Use ASNs when external connectivity to these ASe= s is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 required (Section 5.2.4).

=C2=A0 5.2.3.=C2=A0 Prefix Advertisement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A Clos topology features a large number of point-to-poi= nt links and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated prefixes.=C2=A0 Advertising all of these rou= tes into BGP may
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create FIB overload in the network devices.=C2=A0 Advertisin= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these links also puts additional path computation stres= s on the BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane for little benefit.=C2=A0 There are two p= ossible solutions:

***************
*** 925,951 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device, distant networks will automatically be = reachable via the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advertising EBGP peer and do not require reacha= bility to these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes.=C2=A0 However, this may complicate op= erations or monitoring:
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g. using the popular "traceroute" t= ool will display IP addresses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that are not reachable.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize t= hem on every
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device.=C2=A0 This requires an address allocati= on scheme such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses = per Tier-1 and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point int= erface addressing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplinks will be num= bered out of Tier-1
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addressing and so forth).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into= BGP without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices.= =C2=A0 Summarizing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holin= g under a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure (e.g. between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices)= and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hence must be avoided.=C2=A0 The use of peer links with= in the same tier to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolve the black-holing problem by providing "byp= ass paths" is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mes= h and waste of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ports on the devices.=C2=A0 An alternative to the full-= mesh of peer-links
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g. a "ring&= quot; as described
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and h= as very
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 limited bisection bandwidth, in addition requiring special t= weaks to



--- 925,951 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device, distant networks will automatically be = reachable via the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advertising EBGP peer and do not require reacha= bility to these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes.=C2=A0 However, this may complicate op= erations or monitoring:
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g., using the popular "traceroute" = tool will display IP addresses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that are not reachable.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Advertise point-to-point links, but summarize t= hem on every
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device.=C2=A0 This requires an address allocati= on scheme such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allocating a consecutive block of IP addresses = per Tier-1 and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 device to be used for point-to-point int= erface addressing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the lower layers (Tier-2 uplink addresses wi= ll be allocated
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from Tier-1 address blocks and so forth).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server subnets on Tier-3 devices must be announced into= BGP without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using route summarization on Tier-2 and Tier-1 devices.= =C2=A0 Summarizing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subnets in a Clos topology results in route black-holin= g under a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure (e.g., between Tier-2 and Tier-3 devices= ) and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hence must be avoided.=C2=A0 The use of peer links with= in the same tier to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolve the black-holing problem by providing "byp= ass paths" is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0undesirable due to O(N^2) complexity of the peering mes= h and waste of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ports on the devices.=C2=A0 An alternative to the full-= mesh of peer-links
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be using a simpler bypass topology, e.g., a "ring= " as described
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in [FB4POST], but such a topology adds extra hops and h= as very
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 limited bisectional bandwidth. Additionally requiring specia= l tweaks
to



***************
*** 956,963 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting ever= y device into
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an ASN on its own.=C2=A0 Later in this document, Sectio= n 8.2 introduces a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 less intrusive method for performing a limited form route !=C2=A0 =C2=A0 summarization in Clos networks and discusses it's associ= ated trade-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0offs.

=C2=A0 5.2.4.=C2=A0 External Connectivity
--- 956,963 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make BGP routing work - such as possibly splitting ever= y device into
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an ASN on its own.=C2=A0 Later in this document, Sectio= n 8.2 introduces a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 less intrusive method for performing a limited form of route=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 summarization in Clos networks and discusses its associated = trade-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0offs.

=C2=A0 5.2.4.=C2=A0 External Connectivity
***************
*** 972,985 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document.=C2=A0 These devices have to perform a few spe= cial functions:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Hide network topology information when advertis= ing paths to WAN
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routers, i.e. remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996]= from the AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.=C2=A0 This is typically done to avoi= d ASN number collisions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between different data centers and also to prov= ide a uniform
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN E= CMP to Anycast
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes originated in the topology.=C2=A0 An i= mplementation specific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP feature typically called "Remove Priva= te AS" is commonly used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to accomplish this.=C2=A0 Depending on implemen= tation, the feature
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should strip a contiguous sequence of Private U= se ASNs found in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path= to a neighbor.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data = center numbering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are from the Private Use ranges.=C2=A0 The proc= ess for stripping the
--- 972,985 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document.=C2=A0 These devices have to perform a few spe= cial functions:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Hide network topology information when advertis= ing paths to WAN
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routers, i.e., remove Private Use ASNs [RFC6996= ] from the AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.=C2=A0 This is typically done to avoi= d ASN number collisions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between different data centers and also to prov= ide a uniform
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH length to the WAN for purposes of WAN E= CMP to Anycast
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes originated in the topology.=C2=A0 An i= mplementation specific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP feature typically called "Remove Priva= te AS" is commonly used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to accomplish this.=C2=A0 Depending on implemen= tation, the feature
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should strip a contiguous sequence of Private U= se ASNs found in an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AS_PATH attribute prior to advertising the path= to a neighbor.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This assumes that all ASNs used for intra data = center numbering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are from the Private Use ranges.=C2=A0 The proc= ess for stripping the
***************
*** 998,1005 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resista= nce to a single-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 link failure causing the black-holing of traffi= c.=C2=A0 To prevent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 black-holing in the situation when all of the E= BGP sessions to the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given devi= ce it is more
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to take the "relaying" appr= oach rather than introducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default route via complicated conditional r= oute origination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 schemes provided by some implementations [CONDI= TIONALROUTE].

--- 998,1005 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the WAN Routers upstream, to provide resista= nce to a single-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 link failure causing the black-holing of traffi= c.=C2=A0 To prevent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 black-holing in the situation when all of the E= BGP sessions to the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WAN routers fail simultaneously on a given devi= ce, it is more
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to readvertise the default route rath= er than originating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default route via complicated conditional r= oute origination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 schemes provided by some implementations [CONDI= TIONALROUTE].

***************
*** 1017,1023 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes originated from within the data center in a fu= lly routed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network design.=C2=A0 For example, a network with 2000 = Tier-3 devices will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP,= along with
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the infrastructure or other prefixes.=C2=A0 However, as disc= ussed before,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed network design does not allow for route su= mmarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to the lack of peer links inside every tier.

--- 1017,1023 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes originated from within the data center in a fu= lly routed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network design.=C2=A0 For example, a network with 2000 = Tier-3 devices will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have at least 2000 servers subnets advertised into BGP,= along with
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the infrastructure and link prefixes.=C2=A0 However, as disc= ussed before,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed network design does not allow for route su= mmarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to the lack of peer links inside every tier.

***************
*** 1028,1037 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-me= sh of physical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 links or using any other "peer-mesh" = topology, such as ring or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hub-and-spoke.=C2=A0 Configure BGP accordingly = on all Border Leafs to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange network reachability information - e.g= . by adding a mesh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of IBGP sessions.=C2=A0 The interconnecting pee= r links need to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriately sized for traffic that will be pr= esent in the case
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a device or link failure underneath the Bord= er Routers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Tier-1 devices may have additional physical lin= ks provisioned
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 dev= ices from the
--- 1028,1037 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Interconnect the Border Routers using a full-me= sh of physical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 links or using any other "peer-mesh" = topology, such as ring or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hub-and-spoke.=C2=A0 Configure BGP accordingly = on all Border Leafs to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange network reachability information, e.g.= , by adding a mesh
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of IBGP sessions.=C2=A0 The interconnecting pee= r links need to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriately sized for traffic that will be pr= esent in the case
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a device or link failure in the mesh connect= ing the Border
Routers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Tier-1 devices may have additional physical lin= ks provisioned
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the Border Routers (which are Tier-2 dev= ices from the
***************
*** 1043,1049 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device compared with the other devices in the C= los.=C2=A0 This also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reduces the number of ports available to "= regular" Tier-2 switches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and hence the number of clusters that could be = interconnected via
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If any of the above options are implemented, it is poss= ible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perform route summarization at the Border Routers towar= d the WAN
--- 1043,1049 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device compared with the other devices in the C= los.=C2=A0 This also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reduces the number of ports available to "= regular" Tier-2 switches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and hence the number of clusters that could be = interconnected via
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Tier-1 layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If any of the above options are implemented, it is poss= ible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perform route summarization at the Border Routers towar= d the WAN
***************
*** 1071,1079 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by = a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology.=C2=A0 Effectively, every lower-tier device wi= ll use all of its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traf= fic destined
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the same IP prefix.=C2=A0 Number of ECMP paths between an= y two Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the de= vices in the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 middle stage (Tier-1).=C2=A0 For example, Figure 5 illustrat= es the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach = servers X and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1= , 2, 3, and 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0respectively.
--- 1071,1079 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP is the fundamental load sharing mechanism used by = a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology.=C2=A0 Effectively, every lower-tier device wi= ll use all of its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0directly attached upper-tier devices to load share traf= fic destined
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the same IP prefix.=C2=A0 The number of ECMP paths betwee= n any two
Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices in Clos topology equals to the number of the de= vices in the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 middle stage (Tier-1).=C2=A0 For example, Figure 5 illustrat= es a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology where Tier-3 device A has four paths to reach = servers X and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y, via Tier-2 devices B and C and then Tier-1 devices 1= , 2, 3, and 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0respectively.
***************
*** 1105,1116 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementatio= n must support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devic= es directly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attached at any point in the topology in upstream or downstr= eam
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0direction.=C2=A0 Normally, this number does not exceed = half of the ports
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0found on a device in the topology.=C2=A0 For example, a= n ECMP fan-out of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A032 would be required when building a Clos network using= 64-port
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The Border Routers may need to have wide= r fan-out to be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to connect to multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at Border Router level is implemented as described in S= ection 5.2.5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP,= logical link-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to= provide
--- 1105,1116 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ECMP requirement implies that the BGP implementatio= n must support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multipath fan-out for up to the maximum number of devic= es directly
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attached at any point in the topology in the upstream or dow= nstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0direction.=C2=A0 Normally, this number does not exceed = half of the ports
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0found on a device in the topology.=C2=A0 For example, a= n ECMP fan-out of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A032 would be required when building a Clos network using= 64-port
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The Border Routers may need to have wide= r fan-out to be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to connect to a multitude of Tier-1 devices if route summarization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at Border Router level is implemented as described in S= ection 5.2.5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a device's hardware does not support wider ECMP,= logical link-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grouping (link-aggregation at layer 2) could be used to= provide
***************
*** 1122,1131 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP followed by Laye= r 2 ECMP) to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compensate for fan-out limitations.=C2=A0 Such approach= , however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entrop= y will be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available to the second stage of ECMP.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from= an ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective if they match up to and including step (e) = in
--- 1122,1131 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "hierarchical" ECMP (Layer 3 ECMP coupled with Lay= er 2 ECMP) to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compensate for fan-out limitations.=C2=A0 Such approach= , however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0increases the risk of flow polarization, as less entrop= y will be
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available at the second stage of ECMP.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Most BGP implementations declare paths to be equal from= an ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective if they match up to and including step (e) = in
***************
*** 1148,1154 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have = BGP paths with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the sa= me AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute lengths.=C2=A0 Therefore, BGP implementations= must support load
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sharing over above-mentioned paths.=C2=A0 This feature is so= metimes known
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as "multipath relax" or "multipath multi= ple-as" and effectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring= ASNs if all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other attributes are equal as already described in the = previous
--- 1148,1154 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of other devices, such a prefix would have = BGP paths with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different AS_PATH attribute values, while having the sa= me AS_PATH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute lengths.=C2=A0 Therefore, BGP implementations= must support load
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sharing over the above-mentioned paths.=C2=A0 This feature i= s sometimes
known
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as "multipath relax" or "multipath multi= ple-as" and effectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allows for ECMP to be done across different neighboring= ASNs if all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other attributes are equal as already described in the = previous
***************
*** 1182,1199 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is often desirable to have the hashing function used= for ECMP to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact= on flow to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or remove= d to ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group.=C2=A0 This could be used if the network device i= s used as a load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - = in this case,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 losing or adding a destination will not have detrimental eff= ect of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently established flows.=C2=A0 One particular recom= mendation on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992= ], though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other implementations are possible.=C2=A0 This function= ality could be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact = of the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop changes being proportional to the weight of the giv= en next-hop.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on= hardware
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resource utilization, as typically more space is required to=
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implement a consistent-hashing region.

=C2=A0 7.=C2=A0 Routing Convergence Properties

--- 1182,1199 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is often desirable to have the hashing function used= for ECMP to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be consistent (see [CONS-HASH]), to minimize the impact= on flow to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 next-hop affinity changes when a next-hop is added or remove= d to an
ECMP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group.=C2=A0 This could be used if the network device i= s used as a load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0balancer, mapping flows toward multiple destinations - = in this case,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 losing or adding a destination will not have a detrimental e= ffect on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently established flows.=C2=A0 One particular recom= mendation on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementing consistent hashing is provided in [RFC2992= ], though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other implementations are possible.=C2=A0 This function= ality could be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0naturally combined with weighted ECMP, with the impact = of the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop changes being proportional to the weight of the giv= en next-hop.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The downside of consistent hashing is increased load on= hardware
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resource utilization, as typically more resources (e.g., TCA= M space)
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are required to implement a consistent-hashing function.

=C2=A0 7.=C2=A0 Routing Convergence Properties

***************
*** 1209,1224 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes= .=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the rem= aining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are B= GP keep-alive
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 process (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and link= -failure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0triggers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in = high
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 convergence delays, in the order of multiple seconds (on man= y BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer= value is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three seconds).=C2=A0 However, many BGP implementations= can shut down
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "li= nk down" event for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the outgoing interface used for BGP peering.=C2=A0 This= feature is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sometimes called as "fast fallover".=C2=A0 Since l= inks in modern data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connecti= ons, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0physical interface failure is often detected in millise= conds and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence.
--- 1209,1224 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0driven mechanism to obtain updates on IGP state changes= .=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed routing design does not use an IGP, so the rem= aining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms that could be used for fault detection are B= GP keep-alive
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 time-out (or any other type of keep-alive mechanism) and lin= k-failure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0triggers.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Relying solely on BGP keep-alive packets may result in = high
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 convergence delays, on the order of multiple seconds (on man= y BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations the minimum configurable BGP hold timer= value is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three seconds).=C2=A0 However, many BGP implementations= can shut down
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0local EBGP peering sessions in response to the "li= nk down" event for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the outgoing interface used for BGP peering.=C2=A0 This= feature is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sometimes called "fast fallover".=C2=A0 Since link= s in modern data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0centers are predominantly point-to-point fiber connecti= ons, a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0physical interface failure is often detected in millise= conds and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subsequently triggers a BGP re-convergence.
***************
*** 1236,1242 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional= Forwarding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failu= re detection
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and fault signaling to the BGP process.=C2=A0 However, use o= f either of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these presents additional requirements to vendor softwa= re and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1.=C2=A0 Until= recently with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single= member link
--- 1236,1242 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alternatively, some platforms may support Bidirectional= Forwarding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection (BFD) [RFC5880] to allow for sub-second failu= re detection
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and fault signaling to the BGP process.=C2=A0 However, the u= se of either of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these presents additional requirements to vendor softwa= re and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possibly hardware, and may contradict REQ1.=C2=A0 Until= recently with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7130], BFD also did not allow detection of a single= member link
***************
*** 1245,1251 ****

=C2=A0 7.2.=C2=A0 Event Propagation Timing

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the proposed design the impact of BGP Minimum Route Adver= tisement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]= ) should be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered.=C2=A0 Per the standard it is required for B= GP implementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at leas= t MRAI
--- 1245,1251 ----

=C2=A0 7.2.=C2=A0 Event Propagation Timing

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the proposed design the impact of the BGP Minimum Route Advertisement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Interval (MRAI) timer (See section 9.2.1.1 of [RFC4271]= ) should be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered.=C2=A0 Per the standard it is required for B= GP implementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to space out consecutive BGP UPDATE messages by at leas= t MRAI
***************
*** 1258,1270 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has eith= er one path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-= 2 in the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix= , where N is a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 significantly large number, e.g.=C2=A0 N=3D32 (the ECMP fan-= out to the next
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier).=C2=A0 Therefore, if a link fails to another devi= ce from which a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g.= from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 = device), or
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g. from pe= rspective
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch).=C2= =A0 In the former
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate un-dela= yed and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger re-convergence on affected devices.=C2=A0 In th= e latter case, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group= corresponding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the new next-hop set changed.=C2=A0 If the BGP path = was the best-path
--- 1258,1270 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In a Clos topology each EBGP speaker typically has eith= er one path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Tier-2 devices don't accept paths from other Tier-= 2 in the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster due to same ASN) or N paths for the same prefix= , where N is a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 significantly large number, e.g.,=C2=A0 N=3D32 (the ECMP fan= -out to the next
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier).=C2=A0 Therefore, if a link fails to another devi= ce from which a
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 path is received there is either no backup path at all (e.g.= , from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective of a Tier-2 switch losing link to a Tier-3 = device), or
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the backup is readily available in BGP Loc-RIB (e.g., from p= erspective
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a Tier-2 device losing link to a Tier-1 switch).=C2= =A0 In the former
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case, the BGP withdrawal announcement will propagate without= delay and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger re-convergence on affected devices.=C2=A0 In th= e latter case, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0best-path will be re-evaluated and the local ECMP group= corresponding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the new next-hop set changed.=C2=A0 If the BGP path = was the best-path
***************
*** 1279,1285 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device = fails, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upst= ream Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes.=C2=A0 The T= ier-1 devices, in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 turn, will relay those messages to all downstream Tier-2 dev= ices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(except for the originator).=C2=A0 Tier-2 devices other= than the one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstrea= m Tier-1

--- 1279,1285 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation when a link between Tier-3 and Tier-2 device = fails, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-2 device will send BGP UPDATE messages to all upst= ream Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices, withdrawing the affected prefixes.=C2=A0 The T= ier-1 devices, in
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 turn, will relay these messages to all downstream Tier-2 dev= ices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(except for the originator).=C2=A0 Tier-2 devices other= than the one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originating the UPDATE should then wait for ALL upstrea= m Tier-1

***************
*** 1307,1313 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features that vendors include to reduce the control pla= ne impact of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rapidly flapping prefixes.=C2=A0 However, due to issues= described with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0false positives in these implementations especially und= er such
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to turn= this feature on in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this design.=C2=A0 More background and issues with &quo= t;route flap dampening"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and possible implementation changes that could affect t= his are well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in [RFC7196].
--- 1307,1313 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features that vendors include to reduce the control pla= ne impact of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rapidly flapping prefixes.=C2=A0 However, due to issues= described with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0false positives in these implementations especially und= er such
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "dispersion" events, it is not recommended to enab= le this feature in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this design.=C2=A0 More background and issues with &quo= t;route flap dampening"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and possible implementation changes that could affect t= his are well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in [RFC7196].
***************
*** 1316,1324 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A network is declared to converge in response to a fail= ure once all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices within the failure impact scope are notified of= the event and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have re-calculated their RIB's and consequently updated = their FIB's.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Larger failure impact scope typically means slower conv= ergence since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more devices have to be notified, and additionally results i= n a less
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable network.=C2=A0 In this section we describe BGP&#= 39;s advantages over
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact= scope for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Clos topology.
--- 1316,1324 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A network is declared to converge in response to a fail= ure once all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices within the failure impact scope are notified of= the event and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have re-calculated their RIBs and consequently updated their= FIBs.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Larger failure impact scope typically means slower conv= ergence since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more devices have to be notified, and results in a less
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable network.=C2=A0 In this section we describe BGP&#= 39;s advantages over
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link-state routing protocols in reducing failure impact= scope for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Clos topology.
***************
*** 1327,1335 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the best path from the point of view of the local route= r is sent to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0neighbors.=C2=A0 As such, some failures are masked if t= he local node can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately find a backup path and does not have to sen= d any updates
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 further.=C2=A0 Notice that in the worst case ALL devices in = a data center
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or= update the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ECMP groups in the FIB.=C2=A0 However, many failures will no= t result in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0such a wide impact.=C2=A0 There are two main failure ty= pes where impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope is reduced:

--- 1327,1335 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the best path from the point of view of the local route= r is sent to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0neighbors.=C2=A0 As such, some failures are masked if t= he local node can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately find a backup path and does not have to sen= d any updates
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 further.=C2=A0 Notice that in the worst case, all devices in= a data center
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology have to either withdraw a prefix completely or= update the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ECMP groups in their FIBs.=C2=A0 However, many failures will= not result in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0such a wide impact.=C2=A0 There are two main failure ty= pes where impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope is reduced:

***************
*** 1357,1367 ****

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all T= ier-2 devices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directly attached to the failed node will have = to update their
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from non-local = cluster.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in t= he re-convergence
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process, but may receive "implicit withdra= ws" as described above.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Even though in case of such failures multiple IP prefixes wi= ll have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that = ALL of these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device.=C2= =A0 Therefore, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, on= ly a single
--- 1357,1367 ----

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Failure of a Tier-1 device: In this case, all T= ier-2 devices
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directly attached to the failed node will have = to update their
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECMP groups for all IP prefixes from a non-loca= l cluster.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-3 devices are once again not involved in t= he re-convergence
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process, but may receive "implicit withdra= ws" as described above.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Even in the case of such failures, multiple IP prefixes will= have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be reprogrammed in the FIB, it is worth noting that = ALL of these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes share a single ECMP group on Tier-2 device.=C2= =A0 Therefore, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the case of implementations with a hierarchical FIB, on= ly a single
***************
*** 1375,1381 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible with the proposed design, since using this tec= hnique may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0create routing black-holes as mentioned previously.=C2= =A0 Therefore, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worst control plane failure impact scope is the network= as a whole,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for instance in a case of a link failure between Tier-2 and = Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The amount of impacted prefixes in this = case would be much
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers = of a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network topology.=C2=A0 The property of having such lar= ge failure scope is
--- 1375,1381 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible with the proposed design, since using this tec= hnique may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0create routing black-holes as mentioned previously.=C2= =A0 Therefore, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worst control plane failure impact scope is the network= as a whole,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for instance in thecase of a link failure between Tier-2 and= Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 The amount of impacted prefixes in this = case would be much
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less than in the case of a failure in the upper layers = of a Clos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network topology.=C2=A0 The property of having such lar= ge failure scope is
***************
*** 1384,1397 ****

=C2=A0 7.5.=C2=A0 Routing Micro-Loops

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When a downstream device, e.g.=C2=A0 Tier-2 device, loses al= l paths for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix, it normally has the default route pointing towa= rd the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device.=C2=A0 = As a result, it is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possible to get in the situation when Tier-2 switch loses a = prefix,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 but Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-2 = device,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which results in transient micro-loop, since Tier-1 switch w= ill keep
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 d= evice, and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route.=C2= =A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes = the upstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device to fully update its forwarding tables.

--- 1384,1397 ----

=C2=A0 7.5.=C2=A0 Routing Micro-Loops

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When a downstream device, e.g.,=C2=A0 Tier-2 device, loses a= ll paths for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefix, it normally has the default route pointing towa= rd the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0upstream device, in this case the Tier-1 device.=C2=A0 = As a result, it is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possible to get in the situation where a Tier-2 switch loses= a prefix,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 but a Tier-1 switch still has the path pointing to the Tier-= 2 device,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which results in transient micro-loop, since the Tier-1 swit= ch will
keep
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passing packets to the affected prefix back to Tier-2 d= evice, and
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Tier-2 will bounce it back again using the default route= .=C2=A0 This
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0micro-loop will last for the duration of time it takes = the upstream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device to fully update its forwarding tables.

***************
*** 1402,1408 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To minimize impact of the micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-1 swi= tches can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be configured with static "discard" or "= null" routes that will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more specific than the default route for prefixes missi= ng during
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network convergence.=C2=A0 For Tier-2 switches, the dis= card route should
--- 1402,1408 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To minimize the impact of such micro-loops, Tier-2 and Tier-= 1
switches can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be configured with static "discard" or "= null" routes that will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more specific than the default route for prefixes missi= ng during
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network convergence.=C2=A0 For Tier-2 switches, the dis= card route should
***************
*** 1417,1423 ****

=C2=A0 8.1.=C2=A0 Third-party Route Injection

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e. directly atta= ched, BGP speaker
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meet= ing REQ5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP sess= ion with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or even all devices in the topology.=C2=A0 Furthermore,= BGP diverse path
--- 1417,1423 ----

=C2=A0 8.1.=C2=A0 Third-party Route Injection

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP allows for a "third-party", i.e., directly att= ached, BGP speaker
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to inject routes anywhere in the network topology, meet= ing REQ5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This can be achieved by peering via a multihop BGP sess= ion with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or even all devices in the topology.=C2=A0 Furthermore,= BGP diverse path
***************
*** 1427,1433 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, in many implementa= tions ADD-PATH has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use= cases it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally optimized for, which limits the "third-= party" peering to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBGP only, if the feature is used.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement route injection in the proposed design, a = third-party
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, i= njecting the
--- 1427,1433 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, in many implementa= tions ADD-PATH has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0been found to only support IBGP properly due to the use= cases it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originally optimized for, which limits the "third-= party" peering to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBGP only.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement route injection in the proposed design, a = third-party
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP speaker may peer with Tier-3 and Tier-1 switches, i= njecting the
***************
*** 1442,1453 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As mentioned previously, route summarization is not pos= sible within
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network s= usceptible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0route black-holing under single link failures.=C2=A0 Th= e main problem is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limited number of redundant paths between network elemen= ts, e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 = and Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 However, some operators may find route a= ggregation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to improve control plane stability.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If planning on using any technique to summarize within the t= opology
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modeling of the routing behavior and potential for blac= k-holing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be done not only for single or multiple link fai= lures, but

--- 1442,1453 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As mentioned previously, route summarization is not pos= sible within
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposed Clos topology since it makes the network s= usceptible to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0route black-holing under single link failures.=C2=A0 Th= e main problem is
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limited number of redundant paths between network elemen= ts, e.g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is only a single path between any pair of Tier-1 = and Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.=C2=A0 However, some operators may find route a= ggregation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0desirable to improve control plane stability.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If any technique to summarize within the topology is planned= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0modeling of the routing behavior and potential for blac= k-holing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be done not only for single or multiple link fai= lures, but

***************
*** 1458,1468 ****
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures if th= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology extends beyond a physical location.=C2=A0 Simp= le modeling can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0done by checking the reachability on devices doing summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0under the condition of a link or pathway failure betwee= n a set of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers if exter= nal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connectivity is present.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Route summarization would be possible with a small modi= fication to
--- 1458,1468 ----
=C2=A0 Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0March 2016


!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 also fiber pathway failures or optical domain failures when = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0topology extends beyond a physical location.=C2=A0 Simp= le modeling can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0done by checking the reachability on devices doing summ= arization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0under the condition of a link or pathway failure betwee= n a set of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 devices in every tier as well as to the WAN routers when ext= ernal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connectivity is present.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Route summarization would be possible with a small modi= fication to
***************
*** 1519,1544 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only= a single path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0down to this prefix.=C2=A0 It would require dual-homed = servers to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accomplish that.=C2=A0 Also note that this design is on= ly resilient to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failure.=C2=A0 It is possible for a double link = failure to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specifi= c Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device, thus causing a routing black-hole.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A result of the proposed topology modification would be redu= ction of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 devices port capacity.=C2=A0 This limits the max= imum number of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the ma= ximum DC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network size.=C2=A0 A larger network would require diff= erent Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices that have higher port density to implement this= change.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link fail= ures.=C2=A0 Since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 three are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the = link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all tr= affic that was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path.= =C2=A0 This will
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 result in doubling of link utilization on the remaining link= .

=C2=A0 8.2.2.=C2=A0 Simple Virtual Aggregation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A completely different approach to route summarization = is possible,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB pressure, w= hile
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing = information.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases mu= ltiple
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the sa= me set of the
--- 1519,1544 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cluster from Tier-2 devices since each of them has only= a single path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0down to this prefix.=C2=A0 It would require dual-homed = servers to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accomplish that.=C2=A0 Also note that this design is on= ly resilient to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single link failures.=C2=A0 It is possible for a double link= failure to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolate a Tier-2 device from all paths toward a specifi= c Tier-3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0device, thus causing a routing black-hole.

!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A result of the proposed topology modification would be a re= duction of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tier-1 devices port capacity.=C2=A0 This limits the max= imum number of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached Tier-2 devices and therefore will limit the ma= ximum DC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network size.=C2=A0 A larger network would require diff= erent Tier-1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices that have higher port density to implement this= change.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another problem is traffic re-balancing under link fail= ures.=C2=A0 Since
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are two paths from Tier-1 to Tier-3, a failure of the = link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between Tier-1 and Tier-2 switch would result in all tr= affic that was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0taking the failed link to switch to the remaining path.= =C2=A0 This will
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 result in doubling the link utilization of the remaining lin= k.

=C2=A0 8.2.2.=C2=A0 Simple Virtual Aggregation

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A completely different approach to route summarization = is possible,
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided that the main goal is to reduce the FIB size, while=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allowing the control plane to disseminate full routing = information.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, it could be easily noted that in many cases mu= ltiple
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prefixes, some of which are less specific, share the sa= me set of the
***************
*** 1550,1563 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in = the FIB,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring more specific routes if they share the same ne= xt-hop set.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, under normal network conditions, only the = default route
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be programmed into FIB.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with = summary
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's = prefixes the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, = and, by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different cluste= rs.=C2=A0 These
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summary routes should still allow for more specific pre= fixes to leak
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to Tier-1 devices, to enable for detection of mismatches in = the next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-= hop set for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific prefix.

--- 1550,1563 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6769] and only install the least specific route in = the FIB,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring more specific routes if they share the same ne= xt-hop set.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, under normal network conditions, only the = default route
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 needs to be programmed into FIB.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Furthermore, if the Tier-2 devices are configured with = summary
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes covering all of their attached Tier-3 device's = prefixes, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0same logic could be applied in Tier-1 devices as well, = and, by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0induction to Tier-2/Tier-3 switches in different cluste= rs.=C2=A0 These
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summary routes should still allow for more specific pre= fixes to leak
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to Tier-1 devices, to enable detection of mismatches in the = next-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop sets if a particular link fails, changing the next-= hop set for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific prefix.

***************
*** 1571,1584 ****


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce t= he amount of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control plane state (i.e.=C2=A0 BGP UPDATEs/BGP LocRIB sizin= g), but only
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by spotting more = specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes that share their next-hops with less specifics.

=C2=A0 8.3.=C2=A0 ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section discusses some operational aspects of not = advertising
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously outlined= as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option in Section 5.2.3.=C2=A0 The operational impact o= f this decision
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be seen when using the well-known "tracerout= e" tool.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will b= e the link's
--- 1571,1585 ----


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Re-stating once again, this technique does not reduce t= he amount of
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control plane state (i.e.,=C2=A0 BGP UPDATEs/BGP Loc-RIB siz= e), but only
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows for more efficient FIB utilization, by detecting more= specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefixes that share their next-hop set with a subsuming less= specific
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefix.

=C2=A0 8.3.=C2=A0 ICMP Unreachable Message Masquerading

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section discusses some operational aspects of not = advertising
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 point-to-point link subnets into BGP, as previously identifi= ed as an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option in Section 5.2.3.=C2=A0 The operational impact o= f this decision
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be seen when using the well-known "tracerout= e" tool.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Specifically, IP addresses displayed by the tool will b= e the link's
***************
*** 1587,1605 ****
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complicated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS= subsystem to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create the "reverse" entries for the IP addresses = of the same device
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pointing to the same name.=C2=A0 The connectivity then can b= e made by
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of= the devices, e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into= BGP.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem= , which may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unavailable during an outage.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another option is to make the network device perform IP= address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses= of the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate ICMP messages sent off of the device with the &q= uot;primary"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP address of the device.=C2=A0 Specifically, the ICMP = Destination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable)= and ICMP Time
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are involved in proper work= ing of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the "traceroute" tool.=C2=A0 With this modifi= cation, the "traceroute"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probes sent to the devices will always be sent back wit= h the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"primary" IP address as the source, allowing = the operator to discover
--- 1588,1606 ----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complicated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One way to overcome this limitation is by using the DNS= subsystem to
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 create the "reverse" entries for these point-to-po= int IP addresses
pointing
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to a the same name as the loopback address.=C2=A0 The connec= tivity then
can be made by
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resolving this name to the "primary" IP address of= the devices, e.g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its Loopback interface, which is always advertised into= BGP.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, this creates a dependency on the DNS subsystem= , which may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unavailable during an outage.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Another option is to make the network device perform IP= address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0masquerading, that is rewriting the source IP addresses= of the
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate ICMP messages sent by the device with the "= primary"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP address of the device.=C2=A0 Specifically, the ICMP = Destination
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unreachable Message (type 3) codes 3 (port unreachable)= and ICMP Time
!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Exceeded (type 11) code 0, which are required for correct op= eration of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the "traceroute" tool.=C2=A0 With this modifi= cation, the "traceroute"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probes sent to the devices will always be sent back wit= h the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"primary" IP address as the source, allowing = the operator to discover

Thanks,
Acee


--001a1141b2662f2f3005317d48b0-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 13:34:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A4712DBF8; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lcw0STH9INk; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C06912B069; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D5C3DE30082; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55ABE30081; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.193.116.48] (10.193.116.48) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.266.1; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:33:39 +0200 From: Julien Meuric To: , "rtg-ads@ietf.org" Organization: Orange Message-ID: <57212222.5080904@orange.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:33:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , trill@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:33:45 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​ http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation-02.txt Reviewer: Julien Meuric Review Date: April 27, 2016 IETF LC End Date: April 5, 2016 Intended Status: Standards Track *Summary:* I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication. *Comments:* Even though it requires to browse some other TRILL (normative) documents, the mechanism itself is simple and well described. Nevertheless, the specification deserves some improvement when it comes to obligations and options: this was part of my expectation after I realized it was upgrading a short section of the base document (RFC 6325), which needs to be emphasized as well. *Minor Issues:* - The document is ST and references RFC 2119. There a some "MUST" and one "SHOULD", many of them inherited from specifications out of the referenced documents. On the other side, "must" and "should" are commonly used. This MUST be brought up to ST expectations. - The document claims to only update RFC 7177. It seems however that it also updates RFC 6325 (section 4.3.2), RFC 7176 and maybe even RFC 7780. That should be either acknowledged or clarified. The 4th paragraph of the introduction tries to tackle that topic, but it is not clear enough in defining the position of the document with respect to previously defined mechanisms. - The 3rd paragraph of the introduction duplicates the beginning of the following section 2. A possible way to limit this repetition effect may be to summarize that part of the introduction. - Section 3 specifies an algorithm. Even if it does not rely on a formal language, consistency would be valuable. My mind compiler would suggest: * "If" is followed by "then" only once: "then" keyword to be dropped? * The algorithm relies on a break/stop or continue principle; as such, the instance of "Else" at the end should be replaced by " 4) Repeat Step1"; * "is set to" and "<--" seem to be similar: please pick one or clarify; * to improve readability, I would drop the double naming introduced with X, X1 and X2 and rely on explicit variable names all along, as in the text: e.g., "linkMtuSize" instead of X, "lowerBound" for X1 and "upperBound" instead of X2. *Nits:* ------ "Updates" field in header --- - I think the "RFC" acronym should appear. - The list may be extended with RFC RFC 6325, RFC 7176 and maybe even RFC 7780. ------ Abstract --- - s/campus wide MTU feature/campus-wide MTU feature/ - s/campus wide capability/campus-wide capability/ - s/link local packets/link-local packets/ - s/link local MTUs/link-local MTUs/ - "It updates RFC..." duplicates header: either to drop or make more specific to point to precise sections/mechanisms. ------ Section 1. --- - s/link scope PDUs can/link-scoped PDUs can/ ------ Section 2. --- - s/campus wide Sz MTU/campus-wide Sz MTU/ - s/area wide scope/area-wide scope/ - s/domain wide scope/domain wide scope/ - s/L1 Circuit Scoped/L1 Circuit-Scoped/ - "limited to 1470 to 65,535 bytes": I cannot parse it, is it meant to be a range? ------ Section 4. - OLD "while RB1 normally ignores link state information for any IS-IS unreachable RBridge RB2, originatingL1LSPBufferSize is an exception." NEW "while in most cases RB1 ignores link state information for IS-IS unreachable RBridge RB2, originatingL1LSPBufferSize is meaningful." [current wording suggests it is adding an exception to a mandatory behavior, which AFAIU it does not] ------ Section 7. --- - "tested size can be advertised": "can" is to be addressed as part of the loose RFC 2119 wording comment. ------ Section 8. --- - "value [...] had been reported": "reported" puzzles me, maybe "tested" was meant? - The 3rd paragraph "For an Lz-ignorant [...] link-wide Lz." should be moved up to become the second paragraph, so as to clarify what an Lz-ignorant is. - "The extension of TRILL MTU negociation...": this is an explicit positioning which should be mentioned earlier in the I-D. ------ Section 10. --- - RFC 7180 bis is now RFC 7780. --- Regards, Julien From nobody Wed Apr 27 14:39:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D72312D57D; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWBvCgM9oBuL; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9B8312D553; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 14:39:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13608; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461793181; x=1463002781; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=XvXNWhIH7z9oo/n/NUSuJIUxstndcetu803WATTggb4=; b=MkaJ/TMQuVKm24lgdDPCqvPSpJ/fJgeCAYbI40+hHcHBHyGhczJ0+RYh j3XisgzXoPMMeOGNM49AOeG+DxdfP8cyIDFhEveQoguYEoCNQBxwXNPVF cgeQodiacVqhc5qyE+Z5JCn8s2+PohnZaKGVxn9KrWOZHtWxcCATflB6p A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C+AgANMSFX/5tdJa1VCYJsTFN9AQW0c?= =?us-ascii?q?4RzAQ2BdiKFbYE6OBQBAQEBAQEBZRwLhEgtTBIBGgJkFw8BBA4NiCIOwjkBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhiGIYUeFNgWYEAGFe4gUgW5Og3+IXY8vAQ8PA?= =?us-ascii?q?QFCg2ttiDZ/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,543,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="265083969" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Apr 2016 21:39:40 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3RLddZU018932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:39:39 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:39:39 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:39:39 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-08 Thread-Index: AdGgzHD5AnaTBqcTQJm4IHI17iI2lQ== Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:39:39 +0000 Message-ID: <5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366a@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.14.223] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366aXCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability@ietf.org" , "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-08 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 21:39:44 -0000 --_000_5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366aXCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts= as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec= ial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Rout= ing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see htt= p://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability Reviewer: Les Ginsberg Review Date: April 27, 2016 IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016 Intended Status: Informational Summary: This document is a well written document - easy to understand. My= compliments to the authors. I believe there is one minor issue which I wou= ld like to see addressed before publication. Major Issues: None Minor Issues: In Section 5.2 there is a definition of the information which is required t= o be kept by an I2RS Agent for each I2RS interaction. I would like to see t= he addition of "Request State" into this list. Operationally each request c= ould be in one of the following states: * Enqueued (or pending if you prefer) * In process * Completed The lack of such a state seems to imply that both the queue time and the pr= ocessing time are insignificant. While I think this may be the case for man= y requests, it will not always be the case. In queue time may be lengthy du= e to other load on the Agent. Also, some requests - particularly destructiv= e requests which involve cleanup of resources - may take a significant amou= nt of time to complete. Along with this an additional timestamp - Processing Initiated - would be u= seful to indicate when processing of the request actually began. Nits: Section 5.1 s/Some notable elements on the architecture/ Some notable elements of the a= rchitecture Figure 1 Not clear to me why Application IDs start at 0 but Client IDs start at 1. Figure 1 Is the text "Op Data V" between I2RS Agent box and Routing System box inten= tional? Section 5.2 Secondary Identity This is defined to be "opaque" yet if not provided the agent is supposed to= insert "an UNAVAILABLE value". This seems to be a contradiction unless we = have a publicly defined value that clients are prohibited from using. Absen= t that you would need a "Secondary Identity Valid" indicator. Section 7.4 s/establish an vendor-agnostic/establish a vendor-agnostic --_000_5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366aXCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate r= eviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing= or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG rev= iew, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For= more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/w= iki/RtgDir

 

Although these comments are primarily for the use= of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along w= ith any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resol= ve them through discussion or by updating the draft. 

 

Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability

Reviewer: Les Ginsberg

Review Date: April 27, 2016

IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016

Intended Status: Informational

 

Summary:  This document is a well written do= cument - easy to understand. My compliments to the authors. I believe there= is one minor issue which I would like to see addressed before publication.=

 

Major Issues: None

 

Minor Issues:

 

In Section 5.2 there is a definition of the infor= mation which is required to be kept by an I2RS Agent for each I2RS interact= ion. I would like to see the addition of "Request State" into thi= s list. Operationally each request could be in one of the following states:

 

·         Enqueued (or pending if you prefer)

·         In process

·         Completed

 

The lack of such a state seems to imply that both= the queue time and the processing time are insignificant. While I think th= is may be the case for many requests, it will not always be the case. In qu= eue time may be lengthy due to other load on the Agent. Also, some requests - particularly destructive requests= which involve cleanup of resources - may take a significant amount of time= to complete.

 

Along with this an additional timestamp - Process= ing Initiated - would be useful to indicate when processing of the request = actually began.

 

Nits:

 

Section 5.1

 

s/Some notable elements on the architecture/ Some= notable elements of the architecture

 

Figure 1

 

Not clear to me why Application IDs start at 0 bu= t Client IDs start at 1.

 

Figure 1

 

Is the text "Op Data V" between I2RS Ag= ent box and Routing System box intentional?

 

Section 5.2

 

Secondary Identity

 

This is defined to be "opaque" yet if n= ot provided the agent is supposed to insert "an UNAVAILABLE value"= ;. This seems to be a contradiction unless we have a publicly defined value= that clients are prohibited from using. Absent that you would need a "Secondary Identity Valid" indicator.

 

Section 7.4

 

s/establish an vendor-agnostic/establish a vendor= -agnostic

 

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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3FAQSLF51fw; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [IPv6:2001:418:3f4::5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728F912B05A; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 17:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by puck.nether.net (Postfix, from userid 507) id 271165409BF; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:50:18 -0400 From: Jon Mitchell To: Alia Atlas Message-ID: <20160428005018.GB29709@puck.nether.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.0 (2016-04-01) Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc@ietf.org" , Routing WG , "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" , Routing Directorate , Routing ADs Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:50:19 -0000 On 25/04/16 15:01 -0400, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Acee, > > Thank you very much for your review. > > Authors, could you please respond soon? I am hoping to get this out to > IETF Last Call > by Thursday - and on the telechat for May 19. That depends on timely > updates from > the authors and shepherd. Acee - thanks again for your detailed review. Alia - we've just posted -10 which addresses the comments. -Jon From nobody Wed Apr 27 22:31:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083D912D1E5 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ionosnetworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFclcqIk0948 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A36B12D515 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o133so19390227vka.3 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ionosnetworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=S/AeBiL0l0TntLHWLx1+0k7H2xG3h6lNsfGGbCFOUlg=; b=fm/URFz6YQi1o8LNVkhjh16iXa6wUymNjzfM0vAYSn5qqmaSos7EJyc9D6DclDV01e HAc1wEpuhbfduYGuWrlHsoEnnPwP1a+Hwry4mhcaJRjovT4ob1IPnmrM+ryMAPN/t0yO eF+bsnT+YCcEu6EN5gFwjpkmtmQj3beOYGCHutQSLZGncbj5PKybJ/4TILQjMRvbzN/l eBh3A82sRc8EN+llWAdjWrnyvGXLlFvjmFxvrDPBeUp4f7lYEIbnpDmNjDC+YWoQKNCf uzuQ9k+hSzK/bao5T0z6lXY05pn6XhUhJyg1hQ/Yah31Ilct6ozjmLm3XwWMQVrwvJeH g05A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=S/AeBiL0l0TntLHWLx1+0k7H2xG3h6lNsfGGbCFOUlg=; b=YWnhRIMpzyDFTyW6+2zSQ/+hNo8+ZRMys0cAU95cBFdkGAB7px+rvdTxLu+Pl5Ac1V v6CUL5j2UyJ/KSpUZ0g9UIfmWJKkjXlbJEhYtUjyQs3CApbovgdPW6vQnuAxpfEy6RUc J48q0qNHeIXk4WJbrI+SvaS7v6gqWaYVGmReucI49CTy7Ql/ai2kro7Z2wghieVeuYbL q9lDUUMZDyQwfAXY0OaydfKJkfILk78zgnO4PdjKBt8ItqOlvowmH3YmwBbOmL9HTHg8 WwC/C7PqWEqJBh9bZ1hvx+DvuTCa4yn23NdtDoci+DB4fI1pWwpXMxiFC2V24NNT2waH n0fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FV9xCilG+cSgCrYg9h2OHAzE6DM/dWHR8hrsH3wDS9N9pgTbze895/b1J6OE5OkV/IdLuoz3acG8lYGzA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.159.39.194 with SMTP id b60mr6443757uab.151.1461821511026; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.129.73 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:31:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:01:50 +0530 Message-ID: From: Manav Bhatia To: Adrian Farrel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c048150e3ed0a053184d7a1 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org, OSPF WG List Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 05:31:55 -0000 --94eb2c048150e3ed0a053184d7a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Adrian, Thanks for the extensive review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue that you raised. > Minor Issues: > > I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on > OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to > store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in > LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is > turned on and off)? > Isnt this implementation specific? This is what will differentiate one vendor implementation from the other. I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas? This is akin to saying that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more attuned for partial SPF runs because the node information is cleanly separated from the reachability information. However, this isnt entirely true. While i concede that node information is mixed with prefix information in OSPFv2, there still are ways in which clever implementations could separate the two and do exactly what IS-IS does. I took this rather circuitous approach to drive home the point that scalability, churn, overheads on the system are in many cases dependent on the protocol implementation and by that token outside the scope of the IETF drafts. > You *do* have... > A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT > trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. > ...which is a help. > I would be alarmed if an implementation in an absence of this pedantic note triggered SPF runs each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I mean if you understand the idea being discussed then you also understand that a change in this TLV has no bearing on the reachability anywhere. And that knowledge should be enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases ! I know that we have added this note but if we need to explicitly spell such things out in all standards then we clearly have bigger problems ! :-) Cheers, Manav > --94eb2c048150e3ed0a053184d7a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the ex= tensive review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue that you raised.


Minor Issues:

I should like to see some small amou= nt of text on the scaling impact on
OSPF. 1. How much additional informa= tion will implementations have to
store per node/link in the network? 2.= What is the expected churn in
LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especi= ally when the Reflector is
turned on and off)?

=
Isnt this implementation specific? This is what will differentia= te one vendor implementation from the other.=C2=A0

I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas?

<= div>This is akin to saying that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more attun= ed for partial SPF runs because the node information is cleanly separated f= rom the reachability information. However, this isnt entirely true. While i= concede that node information is mixed with prefix information in OSPFv2, = there still are ways in which clever implementations could separate the two= and do exactly what IS-IS does.=C2=A0

I took this= rather circuitous approach to drive home the point that scalability, churn= , overheads on the system are in many cases dependent on the protocol imple= mentation and by that token outside the scope of the IETF drafts.


You *do* have...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A change i= n information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT
=C2=A0 =C2=A0trigg= er any SPF computation at a receiving router.
...which is a help.

I would be alarmed if an implementation in an= absence of this pedantic note triggered SPF runs each time an S-BFD disc c= hanged ! I mean if you understand the idea being discussed then you also un= derstand that a change in this TLV has no bearing on the reachability anywh= ere. And that knowledge should be enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases = !=C2=A0

I know that we have added this note but if= we need to explicitly spell such things out in all standards then we clear= ly have bigger problems ! :-)

Cheers, Manav
<= /div>



--94eb2c048150e3ed0a053184d7a1-- From nobody Wed Apr 27 23:32:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7058112D11D; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 23:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lMzrWeTJ7yE3; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 23:32:45 -0700 (PDT) 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with ESMTP id u3SCxwXI029469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:59:59 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" , "'Manav Bhatia'" , "'Adrian Farrel'" References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:59:57 +0100 Message-ID: <094e01d1a14d$dee2e320$9ca8a960$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_094F_01D1A156.40AACD90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFw1kCCaiIwUNLtEKxshcWR2bdBZAEdXWDpAeZ8YfygSM8KEA== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22288.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--21.737-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--21.737-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO0TfAqiYFP7Botbv1rdjkQ67yWPaQc4INT/9J/619DRE3Z4 tIf0VHEEdZFyrfGoFQKhI3awKlxWqNB/8y3gYF9v1FnWYpN8q2HomPrNi98UBBRZ/9wBMhGsADL /rI2baks8Yar5brBvC4k+6F8uUgJCTAoAs2mBYBtswYo64ufkVTRsfGqPls+VbuBZJ8qsrITBJy 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Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:00:15 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_094F_01D1A156.40AACD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acee has it right. =20 While (of course) stuff can be done in implementations to mitigate the = effects, the protocol extensions here increase the size of LSA and = increase the amount of flooding. Since the LSAs have to be stored (in = some form), it is reasonable to describe the amount of extra information = that reflects across a network - maybe express it as "LSA data" and = leave it up to an implementation to choose how to store it. Since the = number of LSA updates impacts the routing plane processing and bits on = the wire, it is reasonable to ask what impact that might have. =20 I am interested to hear whether turning Reflectors on and off could be a = feature that could cause LSAs to flap and so create flooding ripples in = the network. =20 Adrian =20 From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com]=20 Sent: 28 April 2016 10:21 To: Manav Bhatia; Adrian Farrel Cc: ; rtg-dir@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org; OSPF WG List Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt =20 Hi Manav, =20 From: Manav Bhatia Date: Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 1:31 AM To: Adrian Farrel Cc: "" , Routing Directorate = , "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" = , OSPF WG List = Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt =20 Hi Adrian, =20 Thanks for the extensive review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue = that you raised. =20 Minor Issues: I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is turned on and off)? =20 Isnt this implementation specific? This is what will differentiate one = vendor implementation from the other.=20 =20 I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas? =20 This is akin to saying that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more = attuned for partial SPF runs because the node information is cleanly = separated from the reachability information. However, this isnt entirely = true. While i concede that node information is mixed with prefix = information in OSPFv2, there still are ways in which clever = implementations could separate the two and do exactly what IS-IS does.=20 =20 I took this rather circuitous approach to drive home the point that = scalability, churn, overheads on the system are in many cases dependent = on the protocol implementation and by that token outside the scope of = the IETF drafts. =20 I believe what is being requested is a discussion of how often the S-BFD = TLV is likely to change, the effects on flooding, and, if required, = recommendations for any rate-limiting or other measures to prevent = churn.=20 =20 Thanks, Acee =20 =20 =20 =20 You *do* have... A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. ...which is a help. =20 I would be alarmed if an implementation in an absence of this pedantic = note triggered SPF runs each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I mean if you = understand the idea being discussed then you also understand that a = change in this TLV has no bearing on the reachability anywhere. And that = knowledge should be enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases !=20 =20 I know that we have added this note but if we need to explicitly spell = such things out in all standards then we clearly have bigger problems ! = :-) =20 Cheers, Manav =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_094F_01D1A156.40AACD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Acee has it = right.

 

While (of course) stuff can be = done in implementations to mitigate the effects, the protocol extensions = here increase the size of LSA and increase the amount of flooding. Since = the LSAs have to be stored (in some form), it is reasonable to describe = the amount of extra information that reflects across a network - maybe = express it as "LSA data" and leave it up to an implementation = to choose how to store it. Since the number of LSA updates impacts the = routing plane processing and bits on the wire, it is reasonable to ask = what impact that might have.

 

I am interested to hear = whether turning Reflectors on and off could be a feature that could = cause LSAs to flap and so create flooding ripples in the = network.

 

Adrian

 

From: Acee Lindem = (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com]
Sent: 28 April 2016 = 10:21
To: Manav Bhatia; Adrian Farrel
Cc: = <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; rtg-dir@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org; OSPF WG = List
Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt

 

Hi = Manav,

 

From: Manav Bhatia <manav@ionosnetworks.com>Date: Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 1:31 AM
To: Adrian = Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc:= "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, Routing = Directorate <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-iet= f-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" <draft-iet= f-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: = Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt

 

Hi = Adrian,

 

Thanks for the extensive = review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue that you = raised.

 


Minor Issues:

I = should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact = on
OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have = to
store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn = in
LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector = is
turned on and off)?

 

Isnt this implementation = specific? This is what will differentiate one vendor implementation from = the other. 

 

I am not sure how we can = quantify this -- any ideas?

 

This is akin to saying that = IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more attuned for partial SPF runs = because the node information is cleanly separated from the reachability = information. However, this isnt entirely true. While i concede that node = information is mixed with prefix information in OSPFv2, there still are = ways in which clever implementations could separate the two and do = exactly what IS-IS does. 

 

I took this rather circuitous = approach to drive home the point that scalability, churn, overheads on = the system are in many cases dependent on the protocol implementation = and by that token outside the scope of the IETF = drafts.

 

I believe what is being = requested is a discussion of how often the S-BFD TLV is likely to = change, the effects on flooding, and, if required, recommendations for = any rate-limiting or other measures to prevent = churn. 

 

Thanks,

Acee

 

 

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 


You *do* = have...
   A change in information in the S-BFD = Discriminator TLV MUST NOT
   trigger any SPF computation = at a receiving router.
...which is a = help.

 

I would be alarmed if an = implementation in an absence of this pedantic note triggered SPF runs = each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I mean if you understand the idea = being discussed then you also understand that a change in this TLV has = no bearing on the reachability anywhere. And that knowledge should be = enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases = ! 

 

I know that we have added = this note but if we need to explicitly spell such things out in all = standards then we clearly have bigger problems ! = :-)

 

Cheers, = Manav

 

 

 

<= /blockquote>
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Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F24A12D78F; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:56:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5IISpVSGli8; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F230F12D76D; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 74C1D5D8874; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:56:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FA85D85EE; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:56:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.31.0.94] (10.193.116.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.266.1; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 15:56:44 +0200 From: Thomas Morin To: , , , Organization: Orange Message-ID: <57221693.9070104@orange.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:56:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-yang-oam-03 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:56:53 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request (the latter case here). The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​ http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-trill-yang-oam-03 Reviewer: Thomas Morin Review Date: 2016-04-26 Intended Status: Std track Summary: I have some concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication. Comments: The review of this draft was made a bit of a pain by the fact the document is plagued with reference and formatting issues. Having a look at idnits output would have been a useful prerequisite before concluding the draft ready for reviews. That said, the draft is I believe of satisfying quality. I'm raising below only one technical issue, related to reusing typedefs instead of introducing new ones. Note well that this review is not a Yang doctor review, not a review made with a full understanding of TRILL and TRILL OAM. The review I made cannot be considered exhaustive in these respects. Major Issues: The RFCs for the generic OAM Yang datamodel, the TRILL OAM Framework and the TRILL FM Framework should I think all be Normative references. There are a few Yang typedefs that I expect should be defined in other, standalones, specifications rather than in this draft which is specific to TRILL and OAM, namely the "vlan" and "rb-nickname" which I would expect to be defined in a generic IETF/IEEE datamodel (for "vlan") and in the base TRILL Yang model (for "rb-nickname"). It seems for instance the dot1q-types.yang model in draft-wilton-netmod-intf-vlan-yang has a dot1q-vlan-id typedef. The problem may be deeper for RB nicknames: draft-ietf-trill-yang which I would expect to be the place for an rb-nickname typedef, not only does not define one and only defines nickname leaves each time specifying their type, but these type definitions seem to be inconsistent, sometimes uint16 type with a constrained range), sometimes uint32, sometime uint16 without a range constraint, etc. The nickname issue deserves to be addressed across both documents in a better way. Last, although it is unusual to consider editorial issues as "Major", I will mention them here because the draft in its current state really deserves a lot of polish: there are multiple formatting issues, wrong/incomplete or not- up-to-date references. I would kindly suggest that maybe the authors could consider using a real tool to edit their document (automating layout in a reliable way and automatically keeping references up to date). Details on the issues are listed below since they are, each individually, minor issues or smaller nits. Minor Issues: * references are messy, in particular: - RFC7174 is correctly listed, but the reference is incomplete - TRLOAMFRM is also listed although it refers to the draft that became RFC7174 - RFC 7455 is not listed although its refers to in the text of the document * Section 4.5 talks about MTV, but does not introduce the ping and traceroute extension that are defined in the Yang model * contact info for the Yang datamodel only list the draft authors, but the WG should be listed I guess * On page 9, under "revision", the "reference" item says RFC7455, which I guess is a copy-paste error; it should say "draft-ietf-trill-yang-oam" * the description fields under "grouping command-ext-trill" / "out-of-band" for ipv4-address, ipv6-adress, trill-nickname, could be improved by indicating to which device the address is * I wonder if the ecmp-choice leaf description should really explain the meaning of each value, since the type is defined in the GOAM Yang model that may be updated in the future (maybe with new values ?), maybe it would be better to just point there * The IANA section says that the URI is TBD, while an URI is actually specified in the Yang code. * Section 7 is pointing to RFC7455 for the OAM Base Mode, it could be helpful to point at the precise location (Appendix B.) Nits: - meta: check the many things that idnits raises (https://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-trill-yang-oam-03.txt) - draft title is not centered on head page - missing line breaks in many many places (eg. after Section 2 title, in Yang excerpts in section 4, in the overview in Section 5, etc.) - for leaf-list next-hop-rbridges on page 16, there is a typo: "perticular" instead of "particular" - Section 4.5 says that "defined in TRILL YANG model" which really is redundant - Section 5 says "The complete data hierarchy related to the OAM YANG model is presented below." but the hierarchy presented if, of course, the one of the _TRILL_ OAM datamodel Best, -Thomas From nobody Thu Apr 28 08:12:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843F412D80B; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at 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12:15:06 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:15:06 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Adrian Farrel Thread-Topic: Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRoQ9JJPZzPVazJE6j7eBXSSMiMJ+fX3YAgAA9NICAADaFgA== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:15:06 +0000 Message-ID: <40BAEA74-73C5-4CA9-B581-FD0864DCDFF8@cisco.com> References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> <094e01d1a14d$dee2e320$9ca8a960$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <094e01d1a14d$dee2e320$9ca8a960$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.150.48.179] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7984BEA-F2F0-48B5-AB20-ECCFE642A953"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "" , Manav Bhatia , "" , OSPF WG List , "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" , "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:19:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C7984BEA-F2F0-48B5-AB20-ECCFE642A953 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E8AE7BC4-903C-44D8-BB06-40C19D29393B" --Apple-Mail=_E8AE7BC4-903C-44D8-BB06-40C19D29393B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Adrian, I would not oppose to making a clarification similar to the following, = if the WG things its useful: The S-BFD Discriminators are expected to be quite static. S-BFD = Discriminators may change when enabling the S-BFD functionality or via = an explicit configuration event. These will result in a change in the = information advertised in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV in OSPF, but are = not expected to happen with any regularity. [I expect that text needs (a lot of) wordsmithing, and might not be = useful or desired at all, but just to make the discussion more real] Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Adrian Farrel = wrote: >=20 > Acee has it right. >=20 > While (of course) stuff can be done in implementations to mitigate the = effects, the protocol extensions here increase the size of LSA and = increase the amount of flooding. Since the LSAs have to be stored (in = some form), it is reasonable to describe the amount of extra information = that reflects across a network - maybe express it as "LSA data" and = leave it up to an implementation to choose how to store it. Since the = number of LSA updates impacts the routing plane processing and bits on = the wire, it is reasonable to ask what impact that might have. >=20 > I am interested to hear whether turning Reflectors on and off could be = a feature that could cause LSAs to flap and so create flooding ripples = in the network. >=20 > Adrian >=20 > From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] > Sent: 28 April 2016 10:21 > To: Manav Bhatia; Adrian Farrel > Cc: ; rtg-dir@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org; OSPF WG List > Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt >=20 > Hi Manav, >=20 > From: Manav Bhatia > > Date: Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 1:31 AM > To: Adrian Farrel > > Cc: ">" >, Routing Directorate >, = "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org = " = >, OSPF WG List = > > Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt >=20 >> Hi Adrian, >>=20 >> Thanks for the extensive review. I have a minor comment on a minor = issue that you raised. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Minor Issues: >>>=20 >>> I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact = on >>> OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have = to >>> store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in >>> LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is >>> turned on and off)? >>=20 >> Isnt this implementation specific? This is what will differentiate = one vendor implementation from the other. >>=20 >> I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas? >>=20 >> This is akin to saying that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more = attuned for partial SPF runs because the node information is cleanly = separated from the reachability information. However, this isnt entirely = true. While i concede that node information is mixed with prefix = information in OSPFv2, there still are ways in which clever = implementations could separate the two and do exactly what IS-IS does. >>=20 >> I took this rather circuitous approach to drive home the point that = scalability, churn, overheads on the system are in many cases dependent = on the protocol implementation and by that token outside the scope of = the IETF drafts. >=20 > I believe what is being requested is a discussion of how often the = S-BFD TLV is likely to change, the effects on flooding, and, if = required, recommendations for any rate-limiting or other measures to = prevent churn. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> You *do* have... >>> A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT >>> trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router. >>> ...which is a help. >>=20 >> I would be alarmed if an implementation in an absence of this = pedantic note triggered SPF runs each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I = mean if you understand the idea being discussed then you also understand = that a change in this TLV has no bearing on the reachability anywhere. = And that knowledge should be enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases ! >>=20 >> I know that we have added this note but if we need to explicitly = spell such things out in all standards then we clearly have bigger = problems ! :-) >>=20 >> Cheers, Manav --Apple-Mail=_E8AE7BC4-903C-44D8-BB06-40C19D29393B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Adrian,

I = would not oppose to making a clarification similar to the following, if = the WG things its useful:

The S-BFD Discriminators are = expected to be quite static. S-BFD Discriminators may change when = enabling the S-BFD functionality or via an explicit configuration event. = These will result in a change in the information advertised in the S-BFD = Discriminator TLV in OSPF, but are not expected to happen with any = regularity.

[I expect that text needs (a lot of) wordsmithing, and might = not be useful or desired at all, but just to make the discussion more = real]

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

On = Apr 28, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>= wrote:

Acee has it right.
 
While (of course) stuff = can be done in implementations to mitigate the effects, the protocol = extensions here increase the size of LSA and increase the amount of = flooding. Since the LSAs have to be stored (in some form), it is = reasonable to describe the amount of extra information that reflects = across a network - maybe express it as "LSA data" and leave it up to an = implementation to choose how to store it. Since the number of LSA = updates impacts the routing plane processing and bits on the wire, it is = reasonable to ask what impact that might have.
 
I am interested to hear = whether turning Reflectors on and off could be a feature that could = cause LSAs to flap and so create flooding ripples in the network.
 
Adrian
 
From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] 
Sent: 28 = April 2016 10:21
To: Manav Bhatia; Adrian = Farrel
Cc: <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org; OSPF WG = List
Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
 
Hi Manav,
 
From: Manav Bhatia <manav@ionosnetworks.com>
Date: Thursday, April 28, = 2016 at 1:31 AM
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, = Routing Directorate <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org>, OSPF = WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of = draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
 
Hi Adrian,
 
Thanks for the extensive = review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue that you raised.
 

Minor Issues:

I = should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on
OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations = have to
store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the = expected churn in
LSAs introduced by this mechanism = (especially when the Reflector is
turned on and off)?
 
Isnt this implementation = specific? This is what will differentiate one vendor implementation from = the other. 
 
I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas?
 
This is akin to saying = that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more attuned for partial SPF runs = because the node information is cleanly separated from the reachability = information. However, this isnt entirely true. While i concede that node = information is mixed with prefix information in OSPFv2, there still are = ways in which clever implementations could separate the two and do = exactly what IS-IS does. 
 
I took this rather = circuitous approach to drive home the point that scalability, churn, = overheads on the system are in many cases dependent on the protocol = implementation and by that token outside the scope of the IETF = drafts.
 
I believe what is being requested is a discussion of how = often the S-BFD TLV is likely to change, the effects on flooding, and, = if required, recommendations for any rate-limiting or other measures to = prevent churn. 
 
Thanks,
Acee
 
 
 
 

You *do* = have...
   A change in information in the S-BFD = Discriminator TLV MUST NOT
   trigger any SPF = computation at a receiving router.
...which is a help.
 
I would be alarmed if an = implementation in an absence of this pedantic note triggered SPF runs = each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I mean if you understand the idea = being discussed then you also understand that a change in this TLV has = no bearing on the reachability anywhere. And that knowledge should be = enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases ! 
 
I know that we have added = this note but if we need to explicitly spell such things out in all = standards then we clearly have bigger problems ! :-)
 
Cheers, = Manav
<= /div>

= --Apple-Mail=_E8AE7BC4-903C-44D8-BB06-40C19D29393B-- --Apple-Mail=_C7984BEA-F2F0-48B5-AB20-ECCFE642A953 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXIjcJAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9ppIP/1KXyHrcwC15LKLoLBirNxAV bZcqfWMrvAk9t85EWMlqu74JBSY87vsKzoeUMWuVYxoa3Wy6xU4AFqca4NeitYJv S3Qow/L0XampRBpilFjNw5oOc1Xf3YFisLi0xELPZaoDuhwRG+8B1ai+gYUp549n GSY2DDdpTfVylx5sBBQpgDWod2b8xlt7fms4DMRX0Xwa42hHScOSBxb5SO1KktdJ v6Dn77u7KbUnt9EAEkhESFo3auNt8YkMhW8Ys+0yy7p+a/c9sGM99B/P+Mk6gkMR c4Ge5AgYXt4bGLSlSLxfLG9qcd70OZFhRcRn0srL1gfSxlmnmWJGcn4LjZCA2y3n JuWD2ydUP4LYt1J/S6Q1k/PlBaYEZtnefI3smYcTPWRgpKrP1YF0VU5jp5Eia23w yV35LwDq+n3S/kYgSI4+uJd5piyZtGbNitytmq54ddqeXuuOgG2rm6E7P+njnm57 OrKx2+v86cj4irjF4FUR1/TRzaAPRt8cH2dZlOG4U8KhMfcKRX/LaWjMERzQrRe+ 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15.00.1104.009; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:29:43 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "'Manav Bhatia'" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRoQ9WY8DoqBN170GaQg+1of41EZ+fcDoAgAA9M4D//9v2QA== Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:29:43 +0000 Message-ID: <985d48e2657a44b8965144f029a88970@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <069b01d1a086$46d4d470$d47e7d50$@olddog.co.uk> <094e01d1a14d$dee2e320$9ca8a960$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <094e01d1a14d$dee2e320$9ca8a960$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [171.69.35.101] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_985d48e2657a44b8965144f029a88970XCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator.all@ietf.org" , 'OSPF WG List' Subject: 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Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:33:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160428005018.GB29709@puck.nether.net> References: <20160428005018.GB29709@puck.nether.net> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 14:33:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Jon Mitchell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e9f667bb9f105318fc372 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-routing-large-dc@ietf.org" , Routing WG , "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" , Routing Directorate , Routing ADs Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:33:35 -0000 --001a113e9f667bb9f105318fc372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Jon, thank you! I'll take another read through. Alia On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Jon Mitchell wrote: > On 25/04/16 15:01 -0400, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Hi Acee, > > > > Thank you very much for your review. > > > > Authors, could you please respond soon? I am hoping to get this out to > > IETF Last Call > > by Thursday - and on the telechat for May 19. That depends on timely > > updates from > > the authors and shepherd. > > Acee - thanks again for your detailed review. Alia - we've just posted > -10 which addresses the comments. > > -Jon > --001a113e9f667bb9f105318fc372 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jon,

thank you!=C2=A0 I'll take ano= ther read through.

Alia

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:50 PM,= Jon Mitchell <jrmitche@puck.nether.net> wrote:
On 25/04/16 15:01 -0400, Alia= Atlas wrote:
> Hi Acee,
>
> Thank you very much for your review.
>
> Authors, could you please respond soon?=C2=A0 I am hoping to get this = out to
> IETF Last Call
> by Thursday - and on the telechat for May 19.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That depend= s on timely
> updates from
> the authors and shepherd.

Acee - thanks again for your detailed review.=C2=A0 Alia - we've= just posted
-10 which addresses the comments.

-Jon

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52F4212D550; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CIT72245; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:10:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:10:12 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:10:04 +0800 From: Mingui Zhang To: Julien Meuric , "draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation.all@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation-02 Thread-Index: AQHRoMQerp4NGV2VcEqtxnPN1zxy5p+fCHCA Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:10:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E787C858FD@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <57212222.5080904@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <57212222.5080904@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.146.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.572316E5.0136, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 93b6faea5066089566f2c565c9c5650f Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "trill@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-trill-mtu-negotiation-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 08:10:20 -0000 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rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9ED12D0EF; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVXdcMelUE60; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5030712D0AE; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3267; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1461951834; x=1463161434; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=idnXDN3pta/7nagrHpcB2+7/H9kLmgpnYr4ssqNu5qg=; b=eRzd24Pb3/ov+HUZ9EpQOrIs9cFi/UcbKOiMvzaNDCACJ64U/djGSu5w ENfQZpG1r7ID06F5jDeJ9jsDidXk03iUOD+V4ni9qH0tJ98E/Opqykfdc rCmueWGliRkYw882brgyb9s/9051sX399Mn7NEJpx/OMdw1mQFevhwDqs c=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,552,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="267910778" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 29 Apr 2016 17:43:53 +0000 Received: from [10.117.46.165] (rtp-jclarke-8914.cisco.com [10.117.46.165]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3THhrE1015093; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:43:53 GMT To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , "rtg-ads@ietf.org" References: <5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366a@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> From: Joe Clarke Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:43:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366a@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability@ietf.org" , "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [i2rs] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-08 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:43:56 -0000 On 4/27/16 17:39, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Summary: This document is a well written document - easy to understand. > My compliments to the authors. I believe there is one minor issue which > I would like to see addressed before publication. Thanks for your comments and feedback, Les. Please see below for some replies and questions. > In Section 5.2 there is a definition of the information which is > required to be kept by an I2RS Agent for each I2RS interaction. I would > like to see the addition of "Request State" into this list. > Operationally each request could be in one of the following states: > > > > Enqueued (or pending if you prefer) > > In process > > Completed > > > > The lack of such a state seems to imply that both the queue time and the > processing time are insignificant. While I think this may be the case > for many requests, it will not always be the case. In queue time may be > lengthy due to other load on the Agent. Also, some requests - > particularly destructive requests which involve cleanup of resources - > may take a significant amount of time to complete. Good observation. Traceability was aimed mainly at the termination of the request, but I like the idea of tracing the state machine. > > > > Along with this an additional timestamp - Processing Initiated - would > be useful to indicate when processing of the request actually began. I don't know we need a new timestamp. Perhaps we just need to rename "Request Timestamp" and "Result Timestamp" to "Start Timestamp" and "End Timestamp" to denote the time within the current state. What do you think? > s/Some notable elements on the architecture/ Some notable elements of > the architecture Fixed. Thanks! > > > > Figure 1 > > > > Not clear to me why Application IDs start at 0 but Client IDs start at 1. Ah. The numbers there are not IDs. They are the number of actual things in the boxes above. For Applications, there may be 0 to N for a given client. For Clients, you need at least 1. Does that make sense? > > > > Figure 1 > > > > Is the text "Op Data V" between I2RS Agent box and Routing System box > intentional? Yes. The 'V' is meant to be an arrow head pointed down. The request and data go from Client to Agent whereas the Response goes from Agent to Client. We are open to suggestions on how to make this clearer. > > > > Section 5.2 > > > > Secondary Identity > > > > This is defined to be "opaque" yet if not provided the agent is supposed > to insert "an UNAVAILABLE value". This seems to be a contradiction > unless we have a publicly defined value that clients are prohibited from > using. Absent that you would need a "Secondary Identity Valid" indicator. Good observation. I think it's fine to say that this field must be logged. If there is no application, then the field will be logged as empty. If there is an application, then whatever value is provided will be logged. Do you feel strongly that we need a field to indicate Application Present? > > > > Section 7.4 > > > > s/establish an vendor-agnostic/establish a vendor-agnostic Fixed. Thanks! Joe From nobody Fri Apr 29 11:55:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDECD12D70B; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTT5VW15Iyfx; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9474D12D6EF; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id x201so128919818oif.3; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=2XOBe/BBhx4VyJX1SOVvMYUwoD4j1drTwtRSbvTYDpM=; b=JfSQOd549XPfMUEulQOVN5ifS84+1MYgPgwxXpdP1mvET67r+OvCsmVfZfFJvTnWnb AypUOlafE9rhXnvQiA5MR1eHHmbTNbs2QOw+TiKn9hPzWSjiEn0Hfv6VVHxjFqOTqOhw l8cHRCSxU1GNgEy9WMv5UjNHkm3Bhvk8JkmO+zUj+TBk+Po4ZfjufAICxFQxAq1xE0fi n7ZMSGWoGyEzxhQITVAyoPH/ueevogJVlRNDFDNQ8Io060XU/WKQuAWvqXnDTbZeUgfC pPMjT4b/mQQqCbuReiSgPTY3RQgIQwLeMpWavferAV99DThHI4+xKRwh04Ptk5rheWjQ Ej6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=2XOBe/BBhx4VyJX1SOVvMYUwoD4j1drTwtRSbvTYDpM=; b=B0nB/gtlc1yWPWV5XT4GYdRDKrEhxoxRS+vbvO9nQ9z18dURJFQ+7lLe0XnjT41Ofb XF66anzGH9n2j+o67STIdsnZY9cj18UJ6Usp2F2OVe8P7bguyVgOoweG56nkNWebngNy A7OgHsmwkmbsXwBOgajnyM4VeKcqMHSU7p3twm0auLhjQcu91IIXDUK2u+An7h+jqw2R JP4m0gf5LeXWq6g9l3j/Afr/wEWnETVVkCFo5JlfndebAUcZJrkUULx2+DnNPgs/FevW HktGL/mb2Toi8ytrT5Zl1Pxvs8vgBJ1inWbnht+xayyFnfuY0N3Yba35BjwpRujEuXFd Mjrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVFFq9p4SEZ0JyNVXFNH1uMS4PvpYY14x1d61YPRWH22fgHCdZevbg1NqQ9Enq3qyLdjw9bhTWdONfhMg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.20.149 with SMTP id d21mr9940355ote.143.1461956119028; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:55:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5afaa922862d4b4a9dc67f117ae5366a@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:55:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Joe Clarke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e22ac26e8f90531a42fd2 Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "Les Ginsberg \(ginsberg\)" , "draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability@ietf.org" , "i2rs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [i2rs] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-08 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:55:31 -0000 --001a113e22ac26e8f90531a42fd2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Les, Thank you very much for your review. Joe, Thanks for following up. I'll get this on the IESG telechat for next Thurs= . Regards, Alia On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: > On 4/27/16 17:39, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > >> Summary: This document is a well written document - easy to understand. >> My compliments to the authors. I believe there is one minor issue which >> I would like to see addressed before publication. >> > > Thanks for your comments and feedback, Les. Please see below for some > replies and questions. > > In Section 5.2 there is a definition of the information which is >> required to be kept by an I2RS Agent for each I2RS interaction. I would >> like to see the addition of "Request State" into this list. >> Operationally each request could be in one of the following states: >> >> >> >> =C2=B7 Enqueued (or pending if you prefer) >> >> =C2=B7 In process >> >> =C2=B7 Completed >> >> >> >> The lack of such a state seems to imply that both the queue time and the >> processing time are insignificant. While I think this may be the case >> for many requests, it will not always be the case. In queue time may be >> lengthy due to other load on the Agent. Also, some requests - >> particularly destructive requests which involve cleanup of resources - >> may take a significant amount of time to complete. >> > > Good observation. Traceability was aimed mainly at the termination of th= e > request, but I like the idea of tracing the state machine. > > >> >> >> Along with this an additional timestamp - Processing Initiated - would >> be useful to indicate when processing of the request actually began. >> > > I don't know we need a new timestamp. Perhaps we just need to rename > "Request Timestamp" and "Result Timestamp" to "Start Timestamp" and "End > Timestamp" to denote the time within the current state. What do you thin= k? > > s/Some notable elements on the architecture/ Some notable elements of >> the architecture >> > > Fixed. Thanks! > > >> >> >> Figure 1 >> >> >> >> Not clear to me why Application IDs start at 0 but Client IDs start at 1= . >> > > Ah. The numbers there are not IDs. They are the number of actual things > in the boxes above. For Applications, there may be 0 to N for a given > client. For Clients, you need at least 1. Does that make sense? > > >> >> >> Figure 1 >> >> >> >> Is the text "Op Data V" between I2RS Agent box and Routing System box >> intentional? >> > > Yes. The 'V' is meant to be an arrow head pointed down. The request and > data go from Client to Agent whereas the Response goes from Agent to Clie= nt. > > We are open to suggestions on how to make this clearer. > > >> >> >> Section 5.2 >> >> >> >> Secondary Identity >> >> >> >> This is defined to be "opaque" yet if not provided the agent is supposed >> to insert "an UNAVAILABLE value". This seems to be a contradiction >> unless we have a publicly defined value that clients are prohibited from >> using. Absent that you would need a "Secondary Identity Valid" indicator= . >> > > Good observation. I think it's fine to say that this field must be > logged. If there is no application, then the field will be logged as > empty. If there is an application, then whatever value is provided will = be > logged. > > Do you feel strongly that we need a field to indicate Application Present= ? > > >> >> >> Section 7.4 >> >> >> >> s/establish an vendor-agnostic/establish a vendor-agnostic >> > > Fixed. Thanks! > > Joe > --001a113e22ac26e8f90531a42fd2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Les,

Thank you very much for your revie= w.

Joe,=C2=A0
Thanks for following up.= =C2=A0 I'll get this on the IESG telechat for next Thurs.

Regards,
Alia



= On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com> wrote:
On 4/27/16 = 17:39, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
Summary:=C2=A0 This document is a well written document - easy to understan= d.
My compliments to the authors. I believe there is one minor issue which
I would like to see addressed before publication.

 Thanks for your comments and feedback, Les.=C2=A0 Please see below for some= replies and questions.

In Section 5.2 there is a definition of the information which is
required to be kept by an I2RS Agent for each I2RS interaction. I would
like to see the addition of "Request State" into this list.
Operationally each request could be in one of the following states:



=C2=B7=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Enqueued (or pending if you prefer)=

=C2=B7=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In process

=C2=B7=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed



The lack of such a state seems to imply that both the queue time and the processing time are insignificant. While I think this may be the case
for many requests, it will not always be the case. In queue time may be
lengthy due to other load on the Agent. Also, some requests -
particularly destructive requests which involve cleanup of resources -
may take a significant amount of time to complete.

 Good observation.=C2=A0 Traceability was aimed mainly at the termination of= the request, but I like the idea of tracing the state machine.




Along with this an additional timestamp - Processing Initiated - would
be useful to indicate when processing of the request actually began.

 I don't know we need a new timestamp.=C2=A0 Perhaps we just need to ren= ame "Request Timestamp" and "Result Timestamp" to "= ;Start Timestamp" and "End Timestamp" to denote the time wit= hin the current state.=C2=A0 What do you think?

s/Some notable elements on the architecture/ Some notable elements of
the architecture

 Fixed.=C2=A0 Thanks!




Figure 1



Not clear to me why Application IDs start at 0 but Client IDs start at 1.

Ah.=C2=A0 The numbers there are not IDs.=C2=A0 They are the number of actua= l things in the boxes above.=C2=A0 For Applications, there may be 0 to N fo= r a given client.=C2=A0 For Clients, you need at least 1.=C2=A0 Does that m= ake sense?




Figure 1



Is the text "Op Data V" between I2RS Agent box and Routing System= box
intentional?

 Yes.=C2=A0 The 'V' is meant to be an arrow head pointed down.=C2=A0= The request and data go from Client to Agent whereas the Response goes fro= m Agent to Client.

We are open to suggestions on how to make this clearer.



Section 5.2



Secondary Identity



This is defined to be "opaque" yet if not provided the agent is s= upposed
to insert "an UNAVAILABLE value". This seems to be a contradictio= n
unless we have a publicly defined value that clients are prohibited from using. Absent that you would need a "Secondary Identity Valid" in= dicator.

 Good observation.=C2=A0 I think it's fine to say that this field must b= e logged.=C2=A0 If there is no application, then the field will be logged a= s empty.=C2=A0 If there is an application, then whatever value is provided = will be logged.

Do you feel strongly that we need a field to indicate Application Present?<= span class=3D"">




Section 7.4



s/establish an vendor-agnostic/establish a vendor-agnostic

Fixed.=C2=A0 Thanks!

Joe

--001a113e22ac26e8f90531a42fd2-- From nobody Fri Apr 29 13:31:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DA212D10E; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vju380MQqb3Q; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDBE012D096; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id k142so131711248oib.1; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=9XM/dRPz6RzLEhu/lUvCojPDAGy8JlLaTVFubmFqA14=; b=snu1koEI26VLFpmsx2GxRtoaNxQOoeAi1mo2ETs+tvr4D+o1tNKEeWMkk8zkJfu4dq OJQVtedBwFGzl1agfdBQrDqgboIS8SHMJZruxWcALtCo0MFNh4BFJ86IPlQGUHswJRq3 W7TME/0ovu1G3p4byXEd5iO0Rze3GChHmv+gog8zL9EJOFZ4GpJMLil7w6iI8TamlyaN EFbChJjM1A5XfHqeM2G81A7PPgG0s4leAQR1HCb3VNKcvXXjLJhxtUH7QTmNvkpGafEL /Jn5dHEkzlDGNmYkVI6vAUj4CjoyQp8yhvura8pHgm/LfcdyGntNUXS6JUbr4UKj1FLX IN+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=9XM/dRPz6RzLEhu/lUvCojPDAGy8JlLaTVFubmFqA14=; b=WeZC3zCNpi9aJpygV41kHxtixr32c+E7iXAVC2+TKJ1FXd/v0QOPW29X8Asd6QZ/Zk SGSluKWy+/9tCft+F1u2wcJToEnTT2fNPZI3ngeOZUcyf3UMofto+a/HPYD07R7zDgU6 IFW0EXRy5hLEAOR6585sSiEXon+MbUEquXJZpwzylA/XhHQb6H1HXDzhwpWzVmVozXyL S2H+hz+YSf+0YwjuozVCfppjNWjRjmo5njL5RhfpFWv9RhUgQoS0QvQgZJGxbcoh2fZg 5HZUYhNCwuBQyv/yJY8W4ixVjFJ4MS6YmGrmRntbc57zTi9Y2JGL0mznb6Q1g636Rduq cocw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVw8WX1EpbGnjtEvngjg9WNkHfkgmncJUoFOjfHCz5wxSbexT8ndmIvUPgYGcQ3y1hzExxRQTnKMb8wTw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.20.149 with SMTP id d21mr10112777ote.143.1461961855151; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:30:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e22ac0d38320531a5859d Archived-At: Cc: "" , "" , "draft-ietf-idr-add-paths.all@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:30:58 -0000 --001a113e22ac0d38320531a5859d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, Thank you very much for your review. Shepherd & authors, Could you please respond and update the draft ASAP with what you agree are improvements as well as addressing the one IETF Last Call comment with the agreed changes? Thanks, Alia On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG revie= w, > and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to > provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the > Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, > it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other > IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-13 > Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro > Review Date: April 25, 2016 > Intended Status: Proposed Standard > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-add-paths/ > > > Summary: > This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that shoul= d > be considered prior to publication. > > Comments: > This is an extremely well written document, very focused and with high > SNR. I have a couple totally-non-critical comments and questions below. > > > Major Issues: > None. > > > Minor Issues: > I have a couple of questions rather than issues: > > 2. How to Identify a Path > ... > A BGP > speaker that receives a route SHOULD NOT assume that the identifier > carries any particular semantics; it SHOULD be treated as an opaque > value. > > I was thinking about why =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9CMU= ST NOT=E2=80=9D, and I understand > future proofing, but wondering if there=E2=80=99s another reason. > > The path identifier has well-defined semantics: make a path unique for a > given prefix, or make the {identifier; prefix} specify a path among many. > Does this sentence intend to specify that a BGP receiving a route SHOULD > NOT assume particular semantics of the numerical value of the field? (suc= h > as the lower value means a more important route), or SHOULD NOT assume > particular semantics of the structure of the field? (such as some > hierarchy, or MSB with some meaning). Or both? > > Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 assume that the value or structure of the ident= ifier carries =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > Or maybe it is OK as is and I am reading too much into it? > > 6. Applications > > The BGP extension specified in this document can be used by a BGP > speaker to advertise multiple paths in certain applications. The > availability of the additional paths can help reduce or eliminate > persistent route oscillations [RFC3345]. It can also help with > optimal routing and routing convergence in a network. The > applications are detailed in separate documents. > > The final sentence does not seem to add anything, other than questions. > I=E2=80=99d suggest either adding pointers to those separate documents, o= r removing > the sentence. This is a non-normative section. > > 7. Deployment Considerations > > The extension proposed in this document provides a mechanism for a > BGP speaker to advertise multiple paths over a BGP session. Care > needs to be taken in its deployment to ensure consistent routing and > forwarding in a network, the details of which will be described in > separate application documents. > > Similarly, which documents? These seem like important considerations. > > > Nits: > > 4. ADD-PATH Capability > > The ADD-PATH Capability is a new BGP capability [RFC5492]. The > Capability Code for this capability is specified in the IANA > Considerations section of this document. > > Why not say "The ADD-PATH Capability is a new BGP capability [RFC5492], > with Capability Code of 69=E2=80=9D and simplify it for the reader? > > 9. Security Considerations > ... > The use of the ADD-PATH Capability is intended to > address specific needs related to, for example, eliminating the MED- > induced route oscillations in a network > [I-D.ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop]. While the applications for > the ADD-PATH Capability are outside the scope of this document, the > users are encouraged to examine their behavior and potential impact > by studying the best practices described in > [I-D.ietf-idr-add-paths-guidelines]. > > Are these Security Considerations, Applications, or Deployment > Considerations? > > > I hope these help, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos. > --001a113e22ac0d38320531a5859d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carlos,

Thank you very much for your= review.

Shepherd & authors,

Could you please respond and update the draft ASAP with what you ag= ree are improvements
as well as addressing the one IETF Last Call= comment with the agreed changes?

Thanks,
Alia

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@c= isco.com> wrote:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.=C2= =A0The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related= =C2=A0drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG=C2=A0review, and= =C2=A0sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide=C2=A0assistance to the Routing ADs. For more informat= ion about the Routing=C2=A0Directorate, please see=C2=A0=E2=80=8Bht= tp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir=C2=A0

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it=C2= =A0would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF=C2= =A0Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to=C2=A0resolve them thr= ough=C2=A0discussion or by updating the draft.

Document:=C2=A0draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-13=C2=A0
Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro=C2=A0
Review Date: April 25, 2016
Intended Status: Proposed Standard


Summary:
This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that sh= ould be considered prior to publication.

Comments:
This is an extremely well written document, very focused and with high= SNR. I have a couple totally-non-critical comments and questions below.


Major Issues:
None.


Minor Issues:
I have a couple of questions rather than issues:

2.=C2=A0 How to Identify a Path
...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0speaker that receives a route SHOULD NOT assume that the = identifier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0carries any particular semantics; it SHOULD be treated as= an opaque
=C2=A0 =C2=A0value.

I was thinking about why =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80= =9CMUST NOT=E2=80=9D, and I understand future proofing, but wondering if th= ere=E2=80=99s another reason.

The path identifier has well-defined semantics: make a path unique for= a given prefix, or make the {identifier; prefix} specify a path among many= . Does this sentence intend to specify that a BGP receiving a route SHOULD = NOT assume particular semantics of the numerical value of the field? (such as the lower value means a more= important route), or SHOULD NOT assume particular semantics of the structu= re of the field? (such as some hierarchy, or MSB with some meaning). Or bot= h?

Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=C2=A0assume that the value or structure of t= he identifier carries =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0
Or maybe it is OK as is and I am reading too much into it?

6.=C2=A0 Applications

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The BGP extension specified in this document can be used = by a BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0speaker to advertise multiple paths in certain applicatio= ns.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0availability of the additional paths can help reduce or e= liminate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0persistent route oscillations [RFC3345].=C2=A0 It can als= o help with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optimal routing and routing convergence in a network.=C2= =A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0applications are detailed in separate documents.

The final sentence does not seem to add anything, other than questions= . I=E2=80=99d suggest either adding pointers to those separate documents, o= r removing the sentence. This is a non-normative section.

7.=C2=A0 Deployment Considerations

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The extension proposed in this document provides a mechan= ism for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP speaker to advertise multiple paths over a BGP sessio= n.=C2=A0 Care
=C2=A0 =C2=A0needs to be taken in its deployment to ensure consistent = routing and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding in a network, the details of which will be des= cribed in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0separate application documents.

Similarly, which documents? These seem like important considerations.<= /div>


Nits:

4.=C2=A0 ADD-PATH Capability

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The ADD-PATH Capability is a new BGP capability [RFC5492]= .=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Capability Code for this capability is specified in the I= ANA
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Considerations section of this document.

Why not say "The ADD-PATH Capability is a new BGP capability [RFC= 5492], with Capability Code of 69=E2=80=9D and simplify it for the reader?<= /div>

9.=C2=A0 Security Considerations
...
=C2=A0 The use of the ADD-PATH Capability is intended to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address specific needs related to, for example, eliminati= ng the MED-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0induced route oscillations in a network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-idr-route-oscillation-stop].=C2=A0 While the ap= plications for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the ADD-PATH Capability are outside the scope of this doc= ument, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0users are encouraged to examine their behavior and potent= ial impact
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by studying the best practices described in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-idr-add-paths-guidelines].

Are these Security Considerations, Applications, or Deployment Conside= rations?


I hope these help,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

--001a113e22ac0d38320531a5859d-- From nobody Fri Apr 29 14:37:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBBC12D76F; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9wMaA6aLBM_C; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3543212D75A; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x201so133389512oif.3; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=faabEbwf82wmEdP2BHlHri7Odnb9vcelCZtMWn2DfGo=; b=Jof8RBaLVcjqJOWkq1nmqBgyzyvG6OMemgPKujYsOROg5BkAZkGZ4i7RTD3L59L4kW +g7imPKJPNR3jqNzbLGTRoaAXZYJVvEIyyLoTHGDqHomsJ9wcGy2M82eiditwBHpKwJS Xt1iGmeHOlSJ3ZhN2H3RNPD2amnPoVWEnnN+5NR+pzLSkBXkUUkWSUPpzd4ZW4Y0b/Nc k2Y8w4S8mCcv8tcsRqJ+4vMS06ZK4xGgdpePnw5z632Bsu24OeRjbSRLPKX/X2Z0GLE5 K0F3wu8JlhlML3E6lvJQIKnWRicElo+iafVLRDJjLwi0TQXh5GVQzYl+pCkLnz6r/oUu yYnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=faabEbwf82wmEdP2BHlHri7Odnb9vcelCZtMWn2DfGo=; b=V6BP3rUD2Ox37RRMwS5kWGnvTPuqD6udNqTTT0HjfTOljffmgqvsgV9jz1CZ83ydQn kohqyToJjciUtogD5be3a7lboPKPoa7jYMmerUiWZdSqRA8Hyd/005HQE2wLp1jH8XpW zgdX9ABNNxIxvhOk6/82jKm05rGUN6JfyndsoZV3oF2eLPXBOc88daNyeDHWMhT1CDvF r9g5VVu8cjnfa3JYUEMyTLk3I7vHsqf1LTm12EYrdnSLZ9RZU48rbNXRh5VoDz/1pMfV qLficpK21eje/iZ7EXWnrjdxZdhlJAtOHl3hxFVbfFOoDGjTCwhKU9geFagqhKt/AZ2W yr/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW3akbAI0odAAtpiYE1TcyciYBlZDG2XBeqe/rfFB985GN4dRqQkKNvpyZDb/Kh4hci4ev+LeuJkhSBlw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.49.102 with SMTP id v35mr10939509otd.41.1461965851556; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1461600259.1868989.588979393.728AD1A2@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1461600259.1868989.588979393.728AD1A2@webmail.messagingengine.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:37:31 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Dan Frost Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141cd784183ce0531a6732b Archived-At: Cc: "" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements.all@ietf.org, "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:37:35 -0000 --001a1141cd784183ce0531a6732b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Dan, Thank you very much for your review. This document is intended to be Informational; the data-tracker needed to be updated. I do have a few comments in-line. Eric, Alex, Gonzalez & Sue, please address these comments ASAP as you feel is appropriate. I do think that some clarifications will help. I do think that version 06 is quite improved in sections 1 & 2. On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Dan Frost wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the > Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-06 > Reviewer: Dan Frost > Review Date: 2016-04-25 > IETF LC End Date: 2016-04-29 > Intended Status: Informational (?) > > Summary: > > I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the > Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. > > Comments: > > Overall this is a clear and consistent requirements document that > addresses an important real-world problem domain, and is nearly ready > for publication. However, because this work may lead to significant > changes in the mechanics of network management and control, some extra > care in the review stage is warranted. I've marked some issues as major > to indicate that they may deserve extra consideration by the ADs and/or > the wider Internet community. > > > Major Issues: > > 1. There seems to be some confusion as to the intended status of the > document. The draft itself lists its intended status as Informational, > which is usually appropriate for a requirements document. On the other > hand, the draft was submitted to the IESG with an Intended Status of > Proposed Standard. Furthermore, a quick check of other I2RS WG > requirements docs shows them split between Informational and Proposed > Standard, so the confusion may extend beyond this draft. I'd suggest > the ADs and chairs agree on a consistent policy. > [Alia] Good catch. Agreement is that they are informational. > 2. The document concerns requirements for a publish/subscribe interface > to, among other things, real-time operational data. The text in Section > 2.3 indicates an awareness of the need to support potentially large > numbers of subscribers and high volumes of data. However, the document > doesn't seem to discuss the global network impact of continuously > pushing a lot of data to many subscribers. > > As the introduction of such a push system could lead to a qualitative > shift in the total volume of management/control traffic, it seems > important to begin addressing this issue at the requirements stage. > > A possible resolution would be to add a brief section on network impact > under large-scale conditions, and/or a set of requirements for > minimizing this impact. Some of the listed requirements are germane to > this, e.g. subscription filters. bundling, and dampening. Issues that > are not addressed include support for encoding formats that are > efficient for high-volume transport and processing (XML and JSON are > usually considered not to be); appropriate selection of transport > protocols and features according to scale/use-case; and support for > mechanisms to determine or restrict the bandwidth cost of a proposed or > ongoing subscription. > [Alia] There are a number of different potential transports and encodings; these tend to be dictated by the ecosystem in which the deployment is desired. These I2RS requirements are targeted initially for YANG with NetConf and RestConf. An expectation is that the mechanisms such as subscription filters, bundling, and dampening, can be reused for other transports and encodings. 3. This work is being carried out in the I2RS WG, but the first sentence > of Section 2.2 states that this document is intended to cover > requirements beyond I2RS. A general question for the editors/chairs/ADs > is whether it has received any review by interested/affected parties > outside I2RS? > [Alia] A proposed solution is being discussed in NetConf. > 4. The Security Requirements make no mention of data integrity or > confidentiality. This is a potentially serious omission in today's > network environment. I would expect at the least that subscribers have > the ability to request a secure (authenticated, integrity-verified, > confidential) session, that publishers likewise have the ability to > refuse non-secure sessions, and that the security status of a session is > explicitly signaled and checked by both parties during negotiation. > [Alia] While the I2RS architecture and draft-ietf-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01 and draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-03 all cover lots of details about this, it would be a good idea to touch on it this as well in the Security Requirements with a useful reference. > Minor Issues: > > 1. The requirements in this document ought to be numbered for ease of > reference. > > 2. Section 3: > As this is a requirements doc, the RFC 2119 language paragraph could use > a clarification sentence along the lines of the one in Section 1.1 of > RFC 5654. > > 3. Section 3: > It's not obvious to me from the text in this section what the > distinction and intended relationship is between Receivers and > Subscribers. Perhaps this can be clarified with an example? Also the > statement "In general, the Receiver and Subscriber will be the same > entity" doesn't sound right -- maybe you meant that in general they can > be different, but usually they will be the same? > > 4. Section 3, last sentence: > What is the difference between the terms "previous Push" and "last > Update" used in this sentence? > > 5. Section 4.2.3, last paragraph: > This paragraph would be more useful if it explained what a > persistence/replay capability was and how it might work. > > 6. Can a definition or reference be provided for the term "object > property" as used in Sections 3 and 4.2.7? This terminology seems > slightly different from that used in RFC 6020. > > 7. Section 4.2.4: > What is the purpose of stating that a subscription service should > support "different" transports and encodings? This sounds too vague to > be useful. Choice of transport and encoding are of great practical > importance, but the document has almost nothing to say on these topics. > Can the authors not provide a summary of options and some definite > guidance here? > [Alia] These are the requirements on a pub/sub service. Of course, different transports and encodings may have slight nuances - but I2RS is specifically reusing NetConf and RestConf and YANG, so that gives the initial set for at least subscribing. Thanks, Alia > 8. Section 4.2.5, third paragraph: > Can you spell out in the document exactly what "Versioning" means here? > > 9. When the underlying transport provides some form of security, should > there not be a requirement for alignment between transport security and > pub/sub protocol security? Can, for example, TLS certificate validation > fulfil the pub/sub authentication requirement? > > 10. An important use-case for such a pub/sub update service is a > subscriber that wants to maintain an up-to-date local copy of a > datastore residing on the publisher. This requires the ability to > correlate the version of the datastore obtained via an out-of-band full > download with the version reflected by each published update. Do the > authors intend to allow for this case, and have they considered the > associated requirements? > > > Nits: > > Section 2.2, first paragraph: > - s/Switches and Routers/switches and routers/ > - s/past subscriptions includes/past subscription mechanisms includes/ > > Section 2.2, last paragraph: > - s/NETCONF should the/NETCONF should be the/ > - s/support Multicast and Broadcast/support for multicast and broadcast/ > > Section 3, 8th paragraph: > - s/referred in/referred to in/ > Section 3, 9th paragraph: > - s/which have been made/that have been made/ > Section 3, last paragraph: > - s/propert(ies)/properties/ > - s/different that/different than that/ > > Section 4, first paragraph: > - s/morphed/adapted/ > > Section 4.1, last paragraph: > - s/lease a Subscription/lease of a Subscription/ > > Section 4.2.1, second and third paragraphs: > These two requirements seem to make more sense if "one or more" is > replaced by "multiple". > > Section 4.2.8, third paragraph: > - s/us a failure/is a failure/ > > > Cheers, > -d > --001a1141cd784183ce0531a6732b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dan,

Thank you very much for your re= view.=C2=A0 This document is intended to be Informational; the data-tracker= needed to be updated.
I do have a few comments in-line.

Eric, Alex, Gonzalez & Sue, please address these comme= nts ASAP as you feel is appropriate.
I do think that some clarifi= cations will help.
I do think that version 06 is quite improved i= n sections 1 & 2.


On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Dan Frost <frost@mm.s= t> wrote:
Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is
to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rt= gDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-06
Reviewer: Dan Frost
Review Date: 2016-04-25
IETF LC End Date: 2016-04-29
Intended Status: Informational (?)

Summary:

I have significant concerns about this document and recommend that the
Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors.

Comments:

Overall this is a clear and consistent requirements document that
addresses an important real-world problem domain, and is nearly ready
for publication.=C2=A0 However, because this work may lead to significant changes in the mechanics of network management and control, some extra
care in the review stage is warranted.=C2=A0 I've marked some issues as= major
to indicate that they may deserve extra consideration by the ADs and/or
the wider Internet community.


Major Issues:

1. There seems to be some confusion as to the intended status of the
document.=C2=A0 The draft itself lists its intended status as Informational= ,
which is usually appropriate for a requirements document.=C2=A0 On the othe= r
hand, the draft was submitted to the IESG with an Intended Status of
Proposed Standard.=C2=A0 Furthermore, a quick check of other I2RS WG
requirements docs shows them split between Informational and Proposed
Standard, so the confusion may extend beyond this draft.=C2=A0 I'd sugg= est
the ADs and chairs agree on a consistent policy.

<= /div>
[Alia] Good catch.=C2=A0 Agreement is that they are informational= .=C2=A0

=C2=A0
2. The document concerns requirements for a publish/subscribe interface
to, among other things, real-time operational data.=C2=A0 The text in Secti= on
2.3 indicates an awareness of the need to support potentially large
numbers of subscribers and high volumes of data.=C2=A0 However, the documen= t
doesn't seem to discuss the global network impact of continuously
pushing a lot of data to many subscribers.

As the introduction of such a push system could lead to a qualitative
shift in the total volume of management/control traffic, it seems
important to begin addressing this issue at the requirements stage.

A possible resolution would be to add a brief section on network impact
under large-scale conditions, and/or a set of requirements for
minimizing this impact.=C2=A0 Some of the listed requirements are germane t= o
this, e.g. subscription filters. bundling, and dampening.=C2=A0 Issues that=
are not addressed include support for encoding formats that are
efficient for high-volume transport and processing (XML and JSON are
usually considered not to be); appropriate selection of transport
protocols and features according to scale/use-case; and support for
mechanisms to determine or restrict the bandwidth cost of a proposed or
ongoing subscription.

[Alia] There are = a number of different potential transports and encodings; these tend
<= div>to be dictated by the ecosystem in which the deployment is desired.=C2= =A0 These
I2RS requirements are targeted initially for YANG with = NetConf and RestConf.
An expectation is that the mechanisms such = as subscription filters, bundling,
and dampening, can be reused f= or other transports and encodings. =C2=A0 =C2=A0

3. This work is being carried out in the I2RS WG, but the first sentence of Section 2.2 states that this document is intended to cover
requirements beyond I2RS.=C2=A0 A general question for the editors/chairs/A= Ds
is whether it has received any review by interested/affected parties
outside I2RS?

[Alia] A proposed solutio= n is being discussed in NetConf.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
4. The Security Requirements make no mention of data integrity or
confidentiality.=C2=A0 This is a potentially serious omission in today'= s
network environment.=C2=A0 I would expect at the least that subscribers hav= e
the ability to request a secure (authenticated, integrity-verified,
confidential) session, that publishers likewise have the ability to
refuse non-secure sessions, and that the security status of a session is explicitly signaled and checked by both parties during negotiation.

[Alia] While the I2RS architecture and=C2=A0draft-ietf-i2rs-security= -environment-reqs-01=C2=A0
and=C2=A0draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-03=C2=A0 all cover lots of details
about this, it would be a good idea to touch on it this as well in= the Security Requirements=C2=A0
with a useful reference.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Minor Issues:

1. The requirements in this document ought to be numbered for ease of
reference.

2. Section 3:
As this is a requirements doc, the RFC 2119 language paragraph could use a clarification sentence along the lines of the one in Section 1.1 of
RFC 5654.

3. Section 3:
It's not obvious to me from the text in this section what the
distinction and intended relationship is between Receivers and
Subscribers.=C2=A0 Perhaps this can be clarified with an example?=C2=A0 Als= o the
statement "In general, the Receiver and Subscriber will be the same entity" doesn't sound right -- maybe you meant that in general the= y can
be different, but usually they will be the same?

4. Section 3, last sentence:
What is the difference between the terms "previous Push" and &quo= t;last
Update" used in this sentence?

5. Section 4.2.3, last paragraph:
This paragraph would be more useful if it explained what a
persistence/replay capability was and how it might work.

6. Can a definition or reference be provided for the term "object
property" as used in Sections 3 and 4.2.7?=C2=A0 This terminology seem= s
slightly different from that used in RFC 6020.

7. Section 4.2.4:
What is the purpose of stating that a subscription service should
support "different" transports and encodings?=C2=A0 This sounds t= oo vague to
be useful.=C2=A0 Choice of transport and encoding are of great practical importance, but the document has almost nothing to say on these topics.
Can the authors not provide a summary of options and some definite
guidance here?

[Alia] These are the req= uirements on a pub/sub service.=C2=A0 Of course, different
transp= orts and encodings may have slight nuances - but I2RS is specifically
=
reusing NetConf and RestConf and YANG, so that gives the initial set f= or
at least subscribing. =C2=A0=C2=A0

Th= anks,
Alia
=C2=A0
8. Section 4.2.5, third paragraph:
Can you spell out in the document exactly what "Versioning" means= here?

9. When the underlying transport provides some form of security, should
there not be a requirement for alignment between transport security and
pub/sub protocol security?=C2=A0 Can, for example, TLS certificate validati= on
fulfil the pub/sub authentication requirement?

10. An important use-case for such a pub/sub update service is a
subscriber that wants to maintain an up-to-date local copy of a
datastore residing on the publisher.=C2=A0 This requires the ability to
correlate the version of the datastore obtained via an out-of-band full
download with the version reflected by each published update.=C2=A0 Do the<= br> authors intend to allow for this case, and have they considered the
associated requirements?


Nits:

Section 2.2, first paragraph:
- s/Switches and Routers/switches and routers/
- s/past subscriptions includes/past subscription mechanisms includes/

Section 2.2, last paragraph:
- s/NETCONF should the/NETCONF should be the/
- s/support Multicast and Broadcast/support for multicast and broadcast/
Section 3, 8th paragraph:
- s/referred in/referred to in/
Section 3, 9th paragraph:
- s/which have been made/that have been made/
Section 3, last paragraph:
- s/propert(ies)/properties/
- s/different that/different than that/

Section 4, first paragraph:
- s/morphed/adapted/

Section 4.1, last paragraph:
- s/lease a Subscription/lease of a Subscription/

Section 4.2.1, second and third paragraphs:
These two requirements seem to make more sense if "one or more" i= s
replaced by "multiple".

Section 4.2.8, third paragraph:
- s/us a failure/is a failure/


Cheers,
-d

--001a1141cd784183ce0531a6732b-- From nobody Sat Apr 30 02:08:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDEE12B051; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W4upnNfKijfo; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EE0512B061; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id bt5so54616254pac.3; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HYMAUg/s5K05bjtgsE0Ee0pwATcglIRSY23Nzzg4U9w=; b=wwoDxg91oycfu6HnNIvJVc76OBl7j5uwYEqQZGLz4LoR7940lEEmV2kGVXoN6xtYL5 WTtu6c43u0wJ2HbnLQG39x0QNilp4NjaKjOHFu/wxxmg8cf0YwgbLL6tZDSnXFDn95P7 kFCoxoZ7b27/kdGNG3R6a3FLq5v4BVqC85nou/Z8zUwaKgY4zB+dZStxEVv4gusMzfU4 CFIl3lZ9uh2vfXXprrLxC2ORY/jlGESnexcZ5yRdUgSDq0gc4betbSMpeTEdPSvwTlLu UIEjtZP28DidhWyFneOyzdxg5aXBArqsPrYbJBnysFYTItlgbz9gaIzTm+FiPlRFOAO2 8vxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HYMAUg/s5K05bjtgsE0Ee0pwATcglIRSY23Nzzg4U9w=; b=HNuqoV8cQ7BU74gDFyu6vPtnPJYpHhnMIuCgoJJstK8GwfO+hIbD/O/AzN1n9F1Bij jKBYd8Q2vJ+DuSagEHPGyOTC+kq4gPF0qWF/sUv7KIQeCI+pLS5ycQ0iVeyR4Ls67ANB u5KIAaCDruPFYT8Ows5/MOh7S1EvcbkPGiNe8iLidxzxa4sU0zBFhwQxek5sFiqYNT1m gjfD5DF1aOpXrSS6AbIbP7gvF+NaIxQFcr1SA4riApCS6Ok79ajFP6RTwtqMwQR6DWJL Xe9UkwS1c6/2rHKXRNbPhTIGSfK/cNpWtBRXJOMkoZA2opqhjKQUBida1tyycdioeEGu aBwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXyE+c4aFAuOJWEtXTC+i9Dauo5pBcv3TR8qq12oiDFKEDc4XzFXrdNHCxNak3eZw== X-Received: by 10.66.52.112 with SMTP id s16mr35976615pao.35.1462007273843; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] ([103.6.157.63]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o80sm29544595pfa.37.2016.04.30.02.07.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 02:07:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , rtg-ads@ietf.org References: From: Pushpasis Sarkar Message-ID: <572475E5.2060009@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:37:49 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , isis-wg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:08:00 -0000 Hi Andy, I have uploaded version -09. Let me know if you have any other comments. Thanks and Regards, -Pushpasis On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:00 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about > the Routing Directorate, please see ​ > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, > it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other > IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-isis-node-admin-tag-08.txt > Reviewer: Andy Malis > Review Date: April 20, 2016 > IETF LC End Date: April 29, 2016 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication, if the AD agrees (see below for details). > > Comments and minor concerns: > > I have no technical concerns with this draft. > > I have noted the two comments in the AD review of this draft, and > agree with them. > > Given the similarity in functionality to RFC 7777 and the overlap in > authorship, I expected the draft to be more or less identical to the > RFC, except for the technical differences between OSPF and ISIS. > However, there are parts of the RFC that are editorially better > (easier to read or understand) than the equivalent text in the draft, > starting with the title, Abstract, and Introduction. In particular, > the Introduction in the RFC looks like the result of cleanup by the > RFC Editor, but which still needs to be done in the draft. Why not > take advantage of the work already done by the RFC Editor? Also, the > Introduction in the draft doesn't include the usual reference to RFC > 2119 terms, which is in the RFC. The Abstract in the RFC also includes > more useful detail than the Abstract in the draft. > > As another example, these differences are also true in Section 4.1 of > the draft, when compared to the mostly equivalent Section 2.2.1 of the > RFC. For example, from an editorial standpoint there is a missing > "The" in the first line of the section, and there are other > improvements as well. I also see editorial corrections in Section 3 of > the RFC when compared to Section 5 in the draft. > > I would recommend an editorial pass where the text is compared with > the RFC, and when obvious, editorially improved to take advantage of > work already done. This will make the RFC Editor's job easier. > Alternatively, the AD could choose to include a note to the RFC > Editor, noting the similarity and asking the RFC Editor to take > advantage of the work that they already did for the RFC. However, > having this done by the document editor would take advantage of the > editor's knowledge of when differences between the two are deliberate. > > Thanks, > Andy > From nobody Sat Apr 30 09:56:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41F012D17E; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cyhlAEWzNNJl; 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d="scan'208";a="267282189" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 30 Apr 2016 16:56:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3UGut5d031311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:56:56 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:56:55 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:56:55 -0400 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Jon Mitchell , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: Routing Directorate Review for "Use of BGP for routing in large-scale data centers" (adding RTG WG) Thread-Index: AQHRnxYlQYfeCPyXgkGAG4vr+m6GrZ+ekbQBgAQyt4A= Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:56:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160428005018.GB29709@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: <20160428005018.GB29709@puck.nether.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.196] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Sun, 1 May 2016 00:23:38 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (173.36.7.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:23:37 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:23:38 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-13 Thread-Index: AQHRoMMn98zHhK2TjUSNYmp93K/cmJ+jTqEA Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 00:23:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.249.22] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D34ABA8B1229DEaretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "draft-ietf-idr-add-paths.all@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 00:23:41 -0000 --_000_D34ABA8B1229DEaretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/27/16, 4:27 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" > wrote: author Carlos: Hi! Thanks for the review! I just posted version -14. Thanks! Alvaro. ... Minor Issues: I have a couple of questions rather than issues: 2. How to Identify a Path ... A BGP speaker that receives a route SHOULD NOT assume that the identifier carries any particular semantics; it SHOULD be treated as an opaque value. I was thinking about why "SHOULD NOT" and not "MUST NOT", and I understand = future proofing, but wondering if there's another reason. The path identifier has well-defined semantics: make a path unique for a gi= ven prefix, or make the {identifier; prefix} specify a path among many. Doe= s this sentence intend to specify that a BGP receiving a route SHOULD NOT a= ssume particular semantics of the numerical value of the field? (such as th= e lower value means a more important route), or SHOULD NOT assume particula= r semantics of the structure of the field? (such as some hierarchy, or MSB = with some meaning). Or both? Maybe, "... assume that the value or structure of the identifier carries ..= ."? Or maybe it is OK as is and I am reading too much into it? At one point in time I think we toyed with the fact that the Path ID could = indicate which was the bestpath, for example. We had added that text to co= ver the point that there is no specific interpretation that should be assum= ed. All the Last Call reviews we got point at this piece of text, so we're modi= fying it to take the rfc2119 language out. --_000_D34ABA8B1229DEaretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 4/27/16, 4:27 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

<hat>author</hat>

Carlos:

Hi!  Thanks for the review!

I just posted version –14.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


…
Minor Issues:
I have a couple of questions rather than issues:

2.  How to Identify a Path
...
   A BGP
   speaker that receives a route SHOULD NOT assum= e that the identifier
   carries any particular semantics; it SHOULD be= treated as an opaque
   value.

I was thinking about why “SHOULD NOT” and not &= #8220;MUST NOT”, and I understand future proofing, but wondering if t= here’s another reason.

The path identifier has well-defined semantics: make a path= unique for a given prefix, or make the {identifier; prefix} specify a path= among many. Does this sentence intend to specify that a BGP receiving a ro= ute SHOULD NOT assume particular semantics of the numerical value of the field? (such as the lower value means a more= important route), or SHOULD NOT assume particular semantics of the structu= re of the field? (such as some hierarchy, or MSB with some meaning). Or bot= h?

Maybe, “… assume that the value or structu= re of the identifier carries …”? 
Or maybe it is OK as is and I am reading too much into it?<= /div>

At one point in time I think we toyed with the fact that the Path ID c= ould indicate which was the bestpath, for example.  We had added that = text to cover the point that there is no specific interpretation that shoul= d be assumed.

All the Last Call reviews we got point at this piece of text, so we're= modifying it to take the rfc2119 language out.

--_000_D34ABA8B1229DEaretanaciscocom_--