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mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Tue, 1 May 2018 11:39:21 -0400 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" , "Daniele Ceccarelli" , " (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label Thread-Index: AdOqJ2/3CBo9gMAuQIaUKq7G00WyngzPYkoQAP8V71A= Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 15:39:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20782_1524750610_5AE1D912_20782_115_3_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF924B14C950@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <20782_1524750610_5AE1D912_20782_115_3_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF924B14C950@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.16.234.110] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8882E78F8MISOUT7MSGUSRDE_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure 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X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.79.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152536799456.4442.2733959917314042989@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2018 10:19:54 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 May 2018 17:19:55 -0000 Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins Review result: Has Nits Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-02.txt Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins Review Date: 3 May 2018 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be considered prior to publication. Comments: The document is readable and succinctly addresses the use case outlined. Minor issues: Section 3, paragraph 4 states: If the Node Attribute TLV carries both the Node IPv4 Local Address sub-TLV and the Node IPv6 Local Address sub-TLV, then the X-AF component must be considered for the consolidated calculation of MPLS TE LSPs. Is the lowercase must supposed to be an uppercase MUST? Nits: Section 4, paragraph 1 states: Way of using these TLVs as specified in this document is fully backward compatible with previous standard documents. This does not read quite right to me. Maybe you should consider rewording it to something like the text I suggest below. Also when you say “standard documents” do you mean RFCs? Is it worth citing an example for completeness? The way these TLVs are used, as specified in this document, is fully backward compatible with earlier RFCs. Regards Ben From nobody Thu May 3 10:54:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC7212EADB for ; Thu, 3 May 2018 10:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2Y-6NRd6_6x for ; Thu, 3 May 2018 10:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Thu, 3 May 2018 12:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF05E12DA06; Thu, 3 May 2018 12:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 77E12B5A2F836; Thu, 3 May 2018 20:10:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Thu, 3 May 2018 20:10:28 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.34]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.62]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Thu, 3 May 2018 12:10:24 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana To: Ben Niven-Jenkins , rtg-dir CC: lsr , draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te.all , rtg-ads Thread-Topic: Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-02 Thread-Index: AQHT4wL6AxRaMfddskKbjLrpJGOix6QeXsCj Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 19:10:23 +0000 Message-ID: <29C261AADAA83847826BD136C22FC8880120C333@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <152536799456.4442.2733959917314042989@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152536799456.4442.2733959917314042989@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_29C261AADAA83847826BD136C22FC8880120C333sjceml521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-02 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 May 2018 19:10:33 -0000 --_000_29C261AADAA83847826BD136C22FC8880120C333sjceml521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B_PpEQonpIXW; Mon, 7 May 2018 12:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 331DE126FDC; Mon, 7 May 2018 12:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836A58C4AE; Mon, 7 May 2018 21:30:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id A8936440218; Mon, 7 May 2018 21:30:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 21:30:19 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Joel Halpern Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 19:30:30 -0000 Joel, Sorry for the late reply. Bufferbloat. Thank you very much for the review. Uploaded first round fixes for your review to github, will push out -14 when i am through with the other reviews. Version: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/master/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt Diff to -13: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/master/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt Comments inline below. (n) additional explanations at end of mail. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Mar 01, 2018 at 06:18:45PM -0800, Joel Halpern wrote: > Reviewer: Joel Halpern > Review result: Ready > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special > request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > ???http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would > be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call > comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by > updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 > Reviewer: Joel Halpern > Review Date: 1-March-2018 > IETF LC End Date: N/A > Intended Status: Proposed Standard > > Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication. > > Major: N/A (Note that three comment is marked *** as they may be more > significant.) > > Minor: > The description of the ACP In the introduction should probably note that > the addition of Management capability is beyond the definition provided in > section 5 of RFC 7575, and is included to complete the needed set of > functionality. Added this to the end of introduction before discussion of stable connectivity, seems to fit best there: The ACP provides secure IPv6 connectivity, therefore it can not only be used as the secure connectivity for self-management as required for the ACP in , but it can also be used as the secure connectivity for traditional (centralized) management. The ACP can be implemented and operated without any other components of autonomic networks, except for the GRASP protocol which it leverages. > The definition of data-plane seems to assume that all forwarding (and > control?) in all nodes is structured in terms of VRFs. That seems to > overly constrain implementation architecture. Using VRF to to describe the > ACP functionality is a little odd, but likely defnesible. Declaring that > all other functionality is in VRFs seems a step too far. Oh... rathole ;-) I spent a lot of time pondering this problem. Given how i think the classical way VRFs are implemented in routers is actually NOT a good way to implement the ACP, i tried long to figure out better terminology. But: VRF is actually the most logical way to specify the interoperability, routing and forwarding aspects of the ACP without really implying a specific implementation approach. For example: If we would have used a term like "virtual router", we would have run the risk of excluding the option to implement ACP as a "classical router OS VRF". On the other hand, by using the term VRF (including our definitions what we mean with it), i can perfectly implement the ACP as a virtual router, as a function in a hypervisor or as a classical router OS VRF. VRF only says separate routing and forwarding (see section 6.9). Note too that we have explicitly specified in the terminology section that we're NOT implying any of the MPLS/VPN-PE specific functions of a VRF. Like othrer RFCs as well that use the term VRF without having anything to do with MPLS/VPN. In response to you bringing up the naming issue, i went through the doc and removed "VRF" where it was used for the data-plane, so as not to imply the use of VRF other than for the ACP itself. There is still some amount of VRF in the "VRF selection" section, thats really too hard to describe without VRF - would just make it too convoluted. > The definition of Intent in the terminology section seems to be different > from the cited definition in the anima reference model. "Intent" there > seems to refer to a policy language, not an interface. Thanks. Good catch. Fixed. > It is unclear how the flexible policy defined in section 5 bullet 2 (about > which nodes are ACP peer candidates) is consistent with autonomic > operation. It seems that the flexibility is important, so there should be > some explanation here about how this is consonant with the stated goals. I > understand that the bootstrap comes from BRSKI, but I do not think that is > where the policy comes from? Would rather not like to add more suggestive text, and thats at best what i could add. The default policy is the best "autonomic" behavior we know how to make work: aka: try to connect ACP to all neighbors you can discover. And we have only defined with DULL GRASP how to find subnet adjacent neighbors. The main reason to mention policy is so that there is some leeway to do more or even (sigh) less than all direct neighbors. See also (1) at end. > The BNF is section 6.1.1 seems to have some oddities. It may be that none > of these can happen for reasons that are described elsewhere, but as > written: > If the local-info is empty, the localpart will be "rfcxxxx." and thus the > domain info will be "rfcxxxx.@domain". Is the period really required in the > absence of the local-info. modified local-part = key "." local-info to local-part = key [ "." local-info ] > If the rsub is empty, but the extensions are not > empty, it looks like there will be two plus signs (following the optional > acp-address) before the first extension. Is that intended as the way to > indicate the absence of the rsub? Yes. Otherwise it would be ambiguous to parse. Haven't written something about this because i think readers eithrer don't care or the can figure it out easily. > It also seems odd that the rsub (which is a > domain extension) appears in the local-part of the domain information, not in > the domain name. Even though for hashing purposes it is concatenated, with a > period, with the domain name. > If these oddities are intentional, then there ought to be explanations so the > reader is not confused. The difference between domain and routing-subdomain are explained directly after the BNF: "domain" is used to indicate the ACP Domain across which all ACP nodes trust each other and are willing to build ACP channel to each other. See . "routing-subdomain" is the autonomic subdomain that is used to calculate the hash for the ULA prefix of the ACP address of the node. ... Added: "rsub" needs to be in the "local-part"; it could not syntactically be separated from "domain-name" if "domain" is just a domain name. It also makes it easier for domain name to be a valid e-mail target. > I presume there is not an assumption that all ULA addressed communicating > with a node which supports the ACP will be over the ACP. As I understand > it, ULAs may well have other uses outside of ANIMA / the ACP. Which leads > to a question about how the text in 6.1.3 "If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 ULA, > the ACP node will try to reach it via the ACP." is expected to be supported? The reason is that the ACP certificate maintenance runs across the ACP so that we have a simple security model for the ACP certificate lifecycle. We do not want to have to figure out the impact of attacks against connectivity to the CDP when it runs across the data plane. After all, these are ACP certificates are also renewed via EST across the ACP. I added the following explanation sentence: Reaching the CDP across the ACP implies that the CDPs need to be reachable via the ACP, for example by running CDPs on registrars or on devices connected to the ACP via ACP connect (see ). See also (2) at end. > The discovery text in section6.3 states that discovery should be run in > every physical interface. Is this intended to be restricted by policy, as > described in section 5, bullet 2? As said above for 5 bullet 2, it is permissible to be modified, the ACP draft does not suggest or recommends any modifications other than those in 6.3, aka: physical interfaces. > *** The explanation in section 6.5 on channel selection (and security > protocol selection) is worded as if the described behavior will lead to > reliable interoperation. The text on why there are limitations (reasonable) > doe not explain why mandating dTLS support would not be a reasonable step. (I > hope I missing something, as otherwise this is a major problem rather than > being minor.) It is also hard to align this with the requirements in section > 6.7.3. I think there is no issue. Let me explain: We beat ourselves up for quite a long time about MTI channel options (Mandatory To Implement) and figured there is no one-size-fits-all. The first challenge for dTLS was that there is no RFC specifying how to run IPv6 over dTLS. There are widely supported / deployed variations like OpenConnect etc. running IP/IPv6 over dTLS, but they all havesome home-brewed complex session maintenance mechanisms because they where built for hub&spoke user VPN solutions. We do not only not need that additional complexity, there is also no RFC for them (only expired individual drafts). In the absence of a simple standardized specification and deployment experience in non-constrained equipment with simple IPv6 over dTLS, we did not want to make it MTI for devices that had a better alternative. I then tried to figure out what would need to be written to specify how to run IPv6 over dTLS, and that became 6.7.2. Many type of constrained devices want to run everything over dTLS because they already got that code for CoAP etc. pp, and they do often not have IPsec code in their software. Therefore dTLS is the better MTI for those devices. I have modified the dTLS MUST sentence to make it clearer: A constrained ACP node that can not support IPsec MUST support dTLS. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 6.8.2.1 has text about "hop-by-hop reliable retransmission as provided for > by TCP". I am unable to determine what this is saying. Changed sentence to: Such shorter periodic retransmission of datagrams would result in more traffic and processing overhead in the ACP than the hop-by-hop reliable retransmission mechanism by TCP and duplicate elimination by GRASP. > If I have used section 6.10.3 properly, when the Zone-ID is 0, all nodes > within the ULA are within a flat address space. that does turn the address > into an identifier. It is, as far as I can tell from the description, > still a locator in that packets will be routed to the node using the > address including the node identifier. It just means that routing has to > work in /127 addresses. (There is also a reference to "identifier" in > 6.10.3.1. From the usage there, I think that the intention is that this is > the generic "name" for the node. Given that it is routable, it is simply > an addresses, not an identifier or a locator.) My driver license number is (intended to be) an identifier. It stays an indentifier even if someone starts building a network with a routing table for driver license numbers. Likewise, the intent of zone=0 numbers is to be identifiers. And yes, they do double a locators when you have a flat routing table which is what we do in this doc. We just didn't describe options where zone=0 would not double as a locator, that is meant to be left for future work if we see sufficient use cases for it. We just tried to make the definitions extensible and define the intent of the format to be that of identifiers. > The description in section 6.10 / 6.10.1 / 6.10.2 is about the schema > identification is very confusing, and arguably a bad design. I guess you mean 6.10.2 / 6.10.3 and 6.10.4 ? > The two schemas use the same schema identifier. ^^^^^^^^^^ Type ? The difference in interpretation > is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the > same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They > should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in > the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two > different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema > identifier (making it 3 bits). We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO textually correct to have them in different subsections. Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space utilization and not beauty of encoding. Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route optimization possible through the placement of Z. > This sort-of different but sort-of the same > makes implementation "interesting". Even if this is extra bit is only > needed for schema 00b, it should be in front of the Zone / subnet, not > after it. This leads to the obvious observation that either we need two > bits, of which we will have 3 settings, and we will use the fourth setting > as an extension mechanism if we ever need more formats, or we need at least > three bits all the time because we seriously think there will be more > formats. I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. > In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed > usage is for more V values Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it if it actually is still there. The two addressing space Zone and Vlong do certainly address two very different network and node design considerations. In the Zone addressing format, we wanted to have a scheme for potentialy very large networks. Enterprises plus their attached IoT networks with hundreds of thousands of nodes. Worldwide enterprise WN/campus/branches. Or massive DCs. The one V bit in this space is just to solve the single most likely problematic implementation consideration of ANI: Allowing ANI to have a complete port number space of itself, therefore not conflicting with traditional management port number usage (if needed). Or similar. The Vlong addressing space goes the other way, allowing to build out management plane or ASA more easily as containers or other lightweight component models where each such component has its own address. We also had brainstormed some network layer functions (proxies) that had to eat up address space, so would use V bits. Both approaches are IMHO very valid and important options that we wanted to be able to support and let developers and deployments choose which one fits them best. > the document goes on to introduce the > complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how > long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to > explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that > begs for mistakes in implementation. I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, therefore these two choices. Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent than address space allocations would become a complex dependency making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. > In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the > point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it > seems here that we will not do so ? As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important to carve out addressing space to support this. See also (3) at end. > Section 6.12.5 says "ACP nodes MUST NOT derive their ACP virtual interface > IPv6 link local address from their IPv6 link local address used on the > underlying interface". But it does not then seem to provide any advice on > what is expected to be used. Is the loopback ACP supposed to be used > somehow? Or? Changed paragraph to following: The ACP virtual interface IPv6 link local address can be derived from any appropriate local mechanism such as or . It MUST NOT depend on something that is attackable from the data-plane such as the IPv6 link-local address of the underlying physcial interface, which can be attacked by SLAAC, or parameters of the secure channel encapsulation header that may not be protected by the secure channel mechanism. > The "configuration" description in 8.2.1 provides a nice description of > what information is needed, and what choices are allowed. It does NOT > describe a method for configuring the information. Please tune the > introductory material. Hope i am guessing correctly what you're alluding to. Fixed text: On the ACP node, remote ACP neighbors are configured explicitly. The parameters of such a "connection" are described in the following ABNF. ... Explicit configuration of a remote-peer according to this ABNF ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ provides all the information to build a secure channel > *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning > of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can > understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, > that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already > understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any > traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" > would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The > justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from > doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction > between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well > understood.) Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and achieve its goals is what we have written. The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that affects the physcial infra. If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or intentional misuse. Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw up that network you're meant to manage. And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary to reach the VM. In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable > functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. > Editorial / Nits: > Section 6.3, in talking about DULL GRASP refers to the grasp internet > draft. It refers to section 3.5.2.2. there is no 3.5.2.2 in the grasp > I-D. As best I can guess the reference should be 2.5.2. Thanks > In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits > is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It > would be nice to explain it. Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an explicit reference ? > In section 6.10.5, in the text about how many V values are allowed, the > text reads: "2^16 - 65536" which would be 0. I believe that the intention > is "2^16 (i.e. 65536)" Thanks. Meant to say "2^16 = 65536", but now its your i.e. > Section 9.2.2 paragraph 2 begins "Group members must overall the secured". > While I can guess what is intended, I would prefer that were in grammatical > English so as to avoid guessing. Hmm.. not sure i catched the grammatical error i did, but i figured that the text was missing some better explanation what it meant. Added the following: Group members must be protected against attackers so that there is no easy way to compromise them, or use them as a proxy for attacking other devices across the ACP. For example, management plane functions (transport ports) should only be reachable from the ACP but not the data-plane. Especially for those management plane functions that have no good protection by themselves because they do not have secure end-to-end transport and to whom ACP does not only provides automatic reliable connectivity but also protection against attacks. > Section 10.5 provides the requirements that were met by choosing RPL for > the routing protocol. Likely RPL is a reasonable choice. Since this > section does not provide comparison or list any alternatives, I would > suggest changing "explanation" to "motivation". Done. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Examples of good additional discovery would be methods to do it via L3 or where additional parameters ae needed, we discussed some options to help bring up interfaces like PPP requiring credentials or the like. On the "challenged product" side, we have seen products unwilling to bring up interfaces during bootstrap because those interfaces require additional license keys for activation *sigh*. (2)side note: We started from classical PKI model with CDP/OCSP but didn't bother much about it, so this is a bit of a step-child: Most of the ANI authors are fans of short lived certificates to eliminate CRL/CDP because through ACP and BRSKI, we can make lifetimes shorter than typical CDP validity intervals: ACP adds reliability, EST automation, BRSKI can provides re-enrollment even when certificate has expired so ACP can not be vbuilt. Therefore we didn't bother much in making CDPs as easy to use as we could, e.g.: no GRASP objective to auto-announce/discover CDP like we did for EST renewal. but i didn't want to blackhole the text with these considerations even further. ] (3) The most simple option we have seen asked for in actual deployments was for manual config of such zone edges, not IMHO really appropriate for this document. More like something for informational docs. Even in that case you could explore the traditional method where you actually hand out zone != 0 address via the domain cert, set up RPL roots for each zone and connect the roots. Or you do simply rely on zone 0 addresses, rely only on the default route in each zone and use something like lisp between zone roots to map from zone=0 as identifier to remote root locator. Aka: everything worth describing in other documents. 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 20:26:29 -0000 SEkgSnVsbGllbiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIGNhcmVmdWwgcmV2aWV3IGFuZCBoZWxwZnVs IGZlZWRiYWNrLiBJIGRpZCBub3Qgc2VlIGFueSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9uIGl0LiBNeSBhcG9sb2dp ZXMgaWYgSSBtaXNzZWQgaXQuIFBsZWFzZSBzZWUgbXkgY29tbWVudHMgaW5saW5lIFtjdWVdLg0K DQrvu78tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogQWxpc3NhIENvb3BlciA8YWxp c3NhQGNvb3BlcncuaW4+DQpEYXRlOiBNb25kYXksIEFwcmlsIDMwLCAyMDE4IGF0IDk6MjcgQU0N ClRvOiAianVsaWVuLm1ldXJpY0BvcmFuZ2UuY29tIiA8anVsaWVuLm1ldXJpY0BvcmFuZ2UuY29t Pg0KQ2M6ICJydGctYWRzQGlldGYub3JnIiA8cnRnLWFkc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4sICJkcmFmdC1pZXRm LW10Z3ZlbnVlLW1lZXRpbmctcG9saWN5LmFsbEBpZXRmLm9yZyIgPGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbXRndmVu dWUtbWVldGluZy1wb2xpY3kuYWxsQGlldGYub3JnPiwgInJ0Zy1kaXJAaWV0Zi5vcmciIDxydGct ZGlyQGlldGYub3JnPiwgIm10Z3ZlbnVlQGlldGYub3JnIiA8bXRndmVudWVAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpT 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5BE12D7F5; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Ap7eJ7SN2_g; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1717412D7F2; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E8926B78A; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:05:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1525734312; bh=rTQfK1iB5UEdoBGG4HyOIaGrGuc/ntXPDTdQ+E/HEtI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=G7vAYm5+R/dO1es1YNa7nAYgvoSQMj6ydsExWZ01Vi1U9SWOPmt6xQmlbtxtqXWrN T5HlEVYPFL67eTFg0GEEpCKVbCKiuB4RJvqFX1rEY7OhzlozLt8hogrq5yKp4iC3G4 vho7YYYqesYcddh73wyHJk4NaNH3Beb3g5YBbRis= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9A2226B77B; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:05:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 19:05:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 23:05:16 -0000 Comments in line. Areas of clear agreement elided. On 5/7/18 3:30 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Joel, > > Sorry for the late reply. Bufferbloat. Okay. Thank you for addressing a number of the points effectively. Let's see if we can solve the remaining items. >> The definition of data-plane seems to assume that all forwarding (and >> control?) in all nodes is structured in terms of VRFs. That seems to >> overly constrain implementation architecture. Using VRF to to describe the >> ACP functionality is a little odd, but likely defnesible. Declaring that >> all other functionality is in VRFs seems a step too far. > > Oh... rathole ;-) > I spent a lot of time pondering this problem. ... > > In response to you bringing up the naming issue, i went through the > doc and removed "VRF" where it was used for the data-plane, so as not > to imply the use of VRF other than for the ACP itself. > > There is still some amount of VRF in the "VRF selection" section, thats > really too hard to describe without VRF - would just make it too convoluted. Good enough. Thank you. >> It is unclear how the flexible policy defined in section 5 bullet 2 (about >> which nodes are ACP peer candidates) is consistent with autonomic >> operation. It seems that the flexibility is important, so there should be >> some explanation here about how this is consonant with the stated goals. I >> understand that the bootstrap comes from BRSKI, but I do not think that is >> where the policy comes from? > > Would rather not like to add more suggestive text, and thats at best what > i could add. The default policy is the best "autonomic" behavior we know how > to make work: aka: try to connect ACP to all neighbors you can discover. And > we have only defined with DULL GRASP how to find subnet adjacent neighbors. > > The main reason to mention policy is so that there is some leeway to do > more or even (sigh) less than all direct neighbors. After looking at this, I think I can live with what you already have. I think there are some issues, but let it be. >> If the rsub is empty, but the extensions are not >> empty, it looks like there will be two plus signs (following the optional >> acp-address) before the first extension. Is that intended as the way to >> indicate the absence of the rsub? > > Yes. Otherwise it would be ambiguous to parse. Haven't > written something about this because i think readers eithrer > don't care or the can figure it out easily. I think it would help to state it explicitly. (section 6.1.1) >> It also seems odd that the rsub (which is a >> domain extension) appears in the local-part of the domain information, not in >> the domain name. Even though for hashing purposes it is concatenated, with a >> period, with the domain name. >> If these oddities are intentional, then there ought to be explanations so the >> reader is not confused. > > The difference between domain and routing-subdomain are explained directly after > the BNF: > > "domain" is used to indicate the ACP Domain across which all ACP nodes trust each other and are willing to build ACP channel to each other. See . > > "routing-subdomain" is the autonomic subdomain that is used to calculate the hash for the ULA prefix of the ACP address of the node. ... > > Added: > > "rsub" needs to be in the "local-part"; it could not syntactically be separated from "domain-name" if "domain" is just a domain name. It also makes it easier for domain name to be a valid e-mail target. Okay. It is odd, but works. > >> I presume there is not an assumption that all ULA addressed communicating >> with a node which supports the ACP will be over the ACP. As I understand >> it, ULAs may well have other uses outside of ANIMA / the ACP. Which leads >> to a question about how the text in 6.1.3 "If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 ULA, >> the ACP node will try to reach it via the ACP." is expected to be supported? > > The reason is that the ACP certificate maintenance runs across the ACP so that > we have a simple security model for the ACP certificate lifecycle. We do not > want to have to figure out the impact of attacks against connectivity to the CDP > when it runs across the data plane. After all, these are ACP certificates are > also renewed via EST across the ACP. > > I added the following explanation sentence: > > Reaching the CDP across the ACP implies that the CDPs > need to be reachable via the ACP, for example by running CDPs on > registrars or on devices connected to the ACP via ACP connect (see ). While a useful addition, that is not what I was asking about. The text as written seems to say that simply because the RDP uses an IPv6 ULA, the node will know to use ACP for the communication. I understand why we awant the communication to use ACP. I don't understand how that is achieved. The way the text is written, it seems to imply that it is a property of IPv6 ULAs. Which I don't think is your intention. So I would like to see clarification. > > See also (2) at end. > >> The discovery text in section6.3 states that discovery should be run in >> every physical interface. Is this intended to be restricted by policy, as >> described in section 5, bullet 2? > > As said above for 5 bullet 2, it is permissible to be modified, the ACP > draft does not suggest or recommends any modifications other than those in 6.3, > aka: physical interfaces. I think you simply need to say "Unless modified by policy as noted earlier, ..." As currently written, the text prohibits the policy over-reide you want. > >> *** The explanation in section 6.5 on channel selection (and security >> protocol selection) is worded as if the described behavior will lead to >> reliable interoperation. The text on why there are limitations (reasonable) >> doe not explain why mandating dTLS support would not be a reasonable step. (I >> hope I missing something, as otherwise this is a major problem rather than >> being minor.) It is also hard to align this with the requirements in section >> 6.7.3. > > I think there is no issue. Let me explain: I think I understand your reasoning, and the various constraints that you face. However, when all is said and done, you seem to have two mechanisms, and no requirement that all devices must support one of them. Which seems to mean that two independent devices may not have an implementation of the channel / security selection that leads to interoperability. That seems a major issue. Saying "we couldn't find a good answer" is not usually an acceptable IETF answer for interoperability. (text retained for future discussion) > > We beat ourselves up for quite a long time about MTI channel options > (Mandatory To Implement) and figured there is no one-size-fits-all. > > The first challenge for dTLS was that there is no RFC specifying how to run > IPv6 over dTLS. There are widely supported / deployed variations > like OpenConnect etc. running IP/IPv6 over dTLS, but they all > havesome home-brewed complex session maintenance mechanisms because > they where built for hub&spoke user VPN solutions. We do not only not > need that additional complexity, there is also no RFC for them (only > expired individual drafts). > > In the absence of a simple standardized specification and deployment > experience in non-constrained equipment with simple IPv6 over dTLS, we > did not want to make it MTI for devices that had a better alternative. > > I then tried to figure out what would need to be written to specify > how to run IPv6 over dTLS, and that became 6.7.2. > > Many type of constrained devices want to run everything over > dTLS because they already got that code for CoAP etc. pp, and > they do often not have IPsec code in their software. Therefore > dTLS is the better MTI for those devices. > > I have modified the dTLS MUST sentence to make it clearer: > > A constrained ACP node that can not support IPsec MUST support dTLS. The change helps, but as noted above does not seem sufficient. ... > >> If I have used section 6.10.3 properly, when the Zone-ID is 0, all nodes >> within the ULA are within a flat address space. that does turn the address >> into an identifier. It is, as far as I can tell from the description, >> still a locator in that packets will be routed to the node using the >> address including the node identifier. It just means that routing has to >> work in /127 addresses. (There is also a reference to "identifier" in >> 6.10.3.1. From the usage there, I think that the intention is that this is >> the generic "name" for the node. Given that it is routable, it is simply >> an addresses, not an identifier or a locator.) > > My driver license number is (intended to be) an identifier. It stays an indentifier > even if someone starts building a network with a routing table for driver license > numbers. Likewise, the intent of zone=0 numbers is to be identifiers. And > yes, they do double a locators when you have a flat routing table which is > what we do in this doc. > > We just didn't describe options where zone=0 would not double as a locator, > that is meant to be left for future work if we see sufficient use cases for it. > We just tried to make the definitions extensible and define the intent of the > format to be that of identifiers. Since the design specifically uses the same field as both the identifier and the locator, I do not think it is fair or appropriate to describe it as being purely an identifier. The fact that you could possibly use it as an identifier later doesn't make it so. > >> The description in section 6.10 / 6.10.1 / 6.10.2 is about the schema >> identification is very confusing, and arguably a bad design. > > I guess you mean 6.10.2 / 6.10.3 and 6.10.4 ? Yes. > >> The two schemas use the same schema identifier. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Type ? Yes. Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that hurt. > > The difference in interpretation >> is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the >> same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They >> should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in >> the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two >> different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema >> identifier (making it 3 bits). > > We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because > that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce > virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. > > So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out > of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. > > Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO > textually correct to have them in different subsections. > > Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, > the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and > best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space > utilization and not beauty of encoding. > > Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 > routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. > > If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, > i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route > optimization possible through the placement of Z. Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. > >> This sort-of different but sort-of the same >> makes implementation "interesting". Even if this is extra bit is only >> needed for schema 00b, it should be in front of the Zone / subnet, not >> after it. This leads to the obvious observation that either we need two >> bits, of which we will have 3 settings, and we will use the fourth setting >> as an extension mechanism if we ever need more formats, or we need at least >> three bits all the time because we seriously think there will be more >> formats. > > I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; > nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you > have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. > > To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it work. I pity the code reviewer. > >> In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed >> usage is for more V values > > Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the > needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it > if it actually is still there. The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. > > The two addressing space Zone and Vlong do certainly address two very different > network and node design considerations. In the Zone addressing format, we > wanted to have a scheme for potentialy very large networks. Enterprises > plus their attached IoT networks with hundreds of thousands of nodes. > Worldwide enterprise WN/campus/branches. Or massive DCs. The one V bit > in this space is just to solve the single most likely problematic implementation > consideration of ANI: Allowing ANI to have a complete port number space of > itself, therefore not conflicting with traditional management port number > usage (if needed). Or similar. > > The Vlong addressing space goes the other way, allowing to build out > management plane or ASA more easily as containers or other lightweight > component models where each such component has its own address. We > also had brainstormed some network layer functions (proxies) that had to > eat up address space, so would use V bits. > > Both approaches are IMHO very valid and important options that we wanted to be able to > support and let developers and deployments choose which one fits > them best. > >> the document goes on to introduce the >> complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how >> long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to >> explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that >> begs for mistakes in implementation. > > I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and > some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, > therefore these two choices. See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. What would break if you didn't define any of this? > > Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem > of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require > a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent > than address space allocations would become a complex dependency > making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that > offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. > It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the variations proved a bad choice. > >> In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the >> point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it >> seems here that we will not do so ? > > As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 > (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, > but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be > appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important > to carve out addressing space to support this. The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot of trouble to enable in your addressing design. ... >> *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning >> of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can >> understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, >> that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already >> understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any >> traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" >> would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The >> justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from >> doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction >> between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well >> understood.) > > Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly have the right to cause the discussion. Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY wrong. Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. (text retained for context of further discussions.) > > I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and > achieve its goals is what we have written. > > The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of > the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. > > We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. > Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. > > The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" > into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that > affects the physcial infra. > > If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, > the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: > only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, > e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. > And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or > intentional misuse. > > Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator > of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN > and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw > up that network you're meant to manage. > > And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their > interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary > to reach the VM. > > In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management > channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking > your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > >> *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable >> functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. > > The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity > would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled > the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator > did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration change. > >> Editorial / Nits: . >> In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits >> is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It >> would be nice to explain it. > > Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an > explicit reference ? I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. From nobody Mon May 7 16:21:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F1F12D7F5; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9u3qT5u-kjqh; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22e.google.com (mail-yw0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52DC812426E; Mon, 7 May 2018 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id i17-v6so9124192ywg.13; Mon, 07 May 2018 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jwSos9skVqfH4cpowIr2gqteRyDGea8PPEXpOFvTC4w=; b=pBkmRKMO9DYSvt4VHUvXrzxg3SiNqXirtXSpwdPbUO09oksOhKnOiCSsyzapJnr8aG q6vjkHlcXBe3qOfmsahXXwQ8wdBSaeSugm44EKL+nQViMD/NuW+vSaziwSy6FrWRKQjM LmpNAgBILq0vhxZLekAUW8S0d7I3d9vZnI62Le6KqRSC6Qps16/ANcO/6nNEOf5OX/s7 lpxsW2HFrnu7jut4rVTDXGj3TB/BkStcfJAD9D2FuTQkNyUoJhxpLghoooji3ql2z8Z2 hgdBBIBcACH2wQOVS3b9Edwh7bBcXjTnJ/OJ9S/ScX1HixtJDWcNOQE3+3uUgD0cnAep WcWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jwSos9skVqfH4cpowIr2gqteRyDGea8PPEXpOFvTC4w=; b=fmedhxSwQIB5i8h7ElALmTMQ/vWgwsoAcZSzY6qbs9ZJFGKtUSDgpQc0y3XX8Yezvg ndMJiXozNIKl042Q+XI/Rz0Ui6oZKovulEPQTUbfFBvUq148nxhP323c9OkMnbsga7JO bLuB4dT/CRp1AS+XZj1WA5zO57N8bZfniEaRbAHHHfnbRDkXcvJlu2YLjJT6wNKEZoZ3 lJuv0gVyW76o7YDslDGesUvKH29ByUq9xwzwls5cePeMSAkhAWTQaH3Td6ayQlP1bQIO kLV0PEOu/sAF8nOiMeMTCIPWeigp2T+kGQ6euQm5RSATtXVE4yyFFJJMi1ZXOKqb2q8o dDkw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwc1qMYnnTfevT3NfZH4pFilh3oekiF+zV6Dng/HdM2G+fyByQeO oS2xANFzOADYrPd+yPSsUo2noA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZp5TrNeWLq1foSmhixX2o0EK97w6IJwSjwbMri6Zkry0MU5Ps1V5sQHnqevhXo3lQ0sIkwgTA== X-Received: by 2002:a81:6282:: with SMTP id w124-v6mr4401659ywb.58.1525735284566; Mon, 07 May 2018 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [51.11.5.190] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w10-v6sm7752699ywj.81.2018.05.07.16.21.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 May 2018 16:21:23 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 16:21:22 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Tal Mizrahi , , , CC: , Message-ID: <0BD74779-D765-49B0-BD89-4B6420C4AF96@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3608554883_1633977602" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 23:21:30 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3608554883_1633977602 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tal, =20 New version (11) should address all your comments. Many thanks and please let me know, if there=E2=80=99s anything else. =20 Cheers, Jeff From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 04:08 To: , ,= Cc: , Subject: Re: RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt Resent-From: Resent-To: Jeff Tantsura , , , Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:08:12 -0700 (PDT) =20 + LSR mailing list. =20 Cheers, Tal. =20 On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM, Tal Mizrahi wr= ote: Hello I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of this= draft.=20 =E2=80=8Bhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd/ The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perf= orm an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted for publication = to the IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft=E2= =80=99s lifetime as a working group document.=20 For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://tr= ac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Document: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt=20 Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi Review Date: April 2018=20 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary:=20 This document is basically ready for publication, but has a couple of issue= s and a few nits that should be considered prior to being submitted to the I= ESG. Comments: The Security Considerations should be more detailed. The reference to RFC 7= 770 is a good start, but please add more details about potential attacks. Fo= r example, what happens if there is a spoofed MSD with a low MSD value? What= is the impact of such an attack? Section 3: The description of the Length field says =E2=80=9Cminimum of 2=E2=80=9D, implying it ca= n be higher than 2. On the other hand, the Value field: =E2=80=9Cconsists of a 1 octet sub-type (IANA= Registry) and 1 octet value.=E2=80=9D, which implies that the Length is equal to = 2. Please align the two descriptions, i.e., if flexibility for future sub-type= s is required, please change the description of Value to allow longer values= . The comment applies to Section 4 as well. Nits: The term =E2=80=9Cminimum MSD=E2=80=9D, which translates to =E2=80=9Cminimum maximum SID Dept= h=E2=80=9D should be explained. The term =E2=80=9Cmaximum MSD=E2=80=9D appears twice in the document, which seems eithe= r redundant, or a typo (did you mean minimum MSD?). The acronym SID should be spelled out on its first use. The acronyms RI and LSA should be added to the Terminology subsection. Section 1.1.1 and Section 2 are both titled =E2=80=9CTerminology=E2=80=9D. It would be = best to merge Section 1.1 into Section 2, and avoid the duplicate title. =E2=80=9Ceach node/link a given SR path=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Ceach node/link of a given SR pat= h=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cnodes and links which has been configured=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Cnodes and links that = have been configured=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Claso=E2=80=9D->=E2=80=9Dalso=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9COther Sub-types other than defined=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9CSub-types other than defined= =E2=80=9D =20 =20 Cheers, Tal Mizrahi. =20 --B_3608554883_1633977602 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tal,

&nbs= p;

New version (11) should address all your comm= ents.

Many thanks and please let me know, i= f there=E2=80=99s anything else.

 

Cheers,

Jeff<= /o:p>

From: Tal Mizrahi = <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, April 29, 2018 at = 04:08
To: <draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org>, &l= t;ospf-chairs@ietf.org>, <lsr@ietf.org>
Cc: <rtg-dir@i= etf.org>, <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: RtgDir Early re= view: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt
Resent-From: <ali= as-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent-To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf= @gmail.com>, <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>, <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com&g= t;, <ppsenak@cisco.com>
Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:08:= 12 -0700 (PDT)

 = ;

+ LSR m= ailing list.

 

Cheers,=

Tal.

 

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 2:0= 4 PM, Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gma= il.com> wrote:

Hello

I have been selected to do a= routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of this draft. 
=E2=80=8Bhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-ms= d/

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>T= he routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perfor= m an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to= the IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft=E2=80=99= s lifetime as a working group document.

For more information about the Routi= ng Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#BB0000'= >http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.= txt 
Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi
Review Date: April 2018 
Inten= ded Status: Standards Track

Summary: 
This document is basically ready f= or publication, but has a couple of issues and a few nits that should be con= sidered prior to being submitted to the IESG.

= Comments:

  • The Se= curity Considerations should be more detailed. The reference to RFC 7770 is = a good start, but please add more details about potential attacks. For examp= le, what happens if there is a spoofed MSD with a low MSD value? What is the= impact of such an attack?
  • Sectio= n 3:
      • The description of the = Length field says =E2=80=9Cminimum of 2=E2=80=9D, implying it can be higher than 2.
        O= n the other hand, the Value field: =E2=80=9Cconsists of a 1 octet sub-type (IANA R= egistry) and 1 octet value.=E2=80=9D, which implies that the Length is equal to 2.=
        Please align the two descriptions, i.e., if flexibility for future sub-t= ypes is required, please change the description of Value to allow longer val= ues.
      • The comment applies to Secti= on 4 as well.

    Nits:

    • The term =E2=80=9Cminimum MSD=E2=80=9D, whic= h translates to =E2=80=9Cminimum maximum SID Depth=E2=80=9D should be explained.<= /span>
      • The term =E2=80=9Cmaximum MSD=E2=80=9D appears twice= in the document, which seems either redundant, or a typo (did you mean mini= mum MSD?).
    • The acronym SID should= be spelled out on its first use.
    • The acronyms RI and LSA should be added to the Terminology subsection.
    • Section 1.1.1 and Section 2 are both = titled =E2=80=9CTerminology=E2=80=9D. It would be best to merge Section 1.1 into Section= 2, and avoid the duplicate title.
    • =E2=80=9Ceach node/link a given SR path=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Ceach node/link of a given SR= path=E2=80=9D
    • =E2=80=9Cnodes and links which= has been configured=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Cnodes and links that have been configured=E2=80= =9D
    • =E2=80=9Claso=E2=80=9D->=E2=80=9Dalso=E2=80=9D
      • =
    • =E2=80=9COther Sub-types other than defined=E2= =80=9D -> =E2=80=9CSub-types other than defined=E2=80=9D

     

    <= /div>

    &n= bsp;

    Cheers,

    Tal Mizrahi.

    =

     

    --B_3608554883_1633977602-- From nobody Mon May 7 20:00:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D418612D875; Mon, 7 May 2018 20:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9SyrDSVejYXa; Mon, 7 May 2018 19:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22c.google.com (mail-pl0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CDE012D876; Mon, 7 May 2018 19:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v24-v6so1318806plo.3; Mon, 07 May 2018 19:59:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2hNFjazk6jGxYg6/MTd8DyczMntpHlm92ZyIZ45PVUM=; b=T4sUEc8m5OJTIcluCVPGS8RhqEC09ldWDWfTcs3uCnBp5Secr8GDeqlGkomljbTpv/ zMVVAyIDj3GMlCFAD4z6RDVcMOLvepzN5W9urZpjFBunptb6YoCktIzHRwJcgZZcsfk+ VGcGbx+1gjcnIS8pa4mtBXBPXv/1kvnX0/He/9HezM9Ogd/mUmzvnPKCofuVYFMGGcOu yotzH9oOiIOU2GQbRXQJoKmf9PoK4zpdaZTTm/R1e8CFZUPIyAfHkG6tSfrJ1mfK8EdY 8VmvafPz/3MB4tRU8g1bblbcjohtjfTEMBywNPyg6DCjMNCCy52Ur4fbfLC7S4RrLl6f uqMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2hNFjazk6jGxYg6/MTd8DyczMntpHlm92ZyIZ45PVUM=; b=n7PqaXKVuQh5gStpO1OrzB7DP0WOjOHqb5pqn3g9PQ253xzrKan+cE1A7KCAl1rDMS SwPFJmcWrlyvmZRyVKtk8CqjASOPXrF9IJo8rAaKPm0gcUYtGcZsDUDHzfMkP/K8c3cA rhKSg0PXMSg+3qdYCYZKkE5e1sTwhm2WZTmTzYo4HWg8RQx3UZFtSlY1kPCpxXID1Z7O PZzwp0JE5D1zk0KcDfK90YJ7yuPmfn5uyMQucL1IwiMP5YW9v1T1AIOX7H1WSqaWvBhZ qa67LBznURDMCSv7w5Kpf97XE50F2YB86BC0oWjeXdtmHvEjT6gEEn705XwBHXJnqAq3 cd1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tD9XLlcrretNZCzYjWITC+vNmCDjGzq8dT5Oolyv7R3wTz3Tfc8 Tr1u4bIbf5wdInhZhaWLrHbVmkp0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrReU4oL8jj6C40fxdJ5A6Z9ZpiUKE7Bxc6MSNb8Y3Axr3wv+fmag0SOejwJ+0MzGz57UhKhA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:c81:: with SMTP id 1-v6mr39100545plt.126.1525748398221; Mon, 07 May 2018 19:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] (65.21.255.123.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [123.255.21.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 204-v6sm36929343pgf.61.2018.05.07.19.59.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 May 2018 19:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Toerless Eckert Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <04e810ae-1233-f3ea-2773-d818abdedfe2@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 14:59:53 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] ULA issue [Re: Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13] X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 03:00:01 -0000 CCs trimmed: On 08/05/2018 11:05, Joel M. Halpern wrote: ... >> >>> I presume there is not an assumption that all ULA addressed communicating >>> with a node which supports the ACP will be over the ACP. As I understand >>> it, ULAs may well have other uses outside of ANIMA / the ACP. Which leads >>> to a question about how the text in 6.1.3 "If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 ULA, >>> the ACP node will try to reach it via the ACP." is expected to be supported? I guess I read that sentence as simply meaning: "If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 ULA within the ACP's ULA prefix, the ACP node will try to reach it via the ACP." which is a trivial statement. If that's not what it means, I am confused too. Brian From nobody Tue May 8 02:41:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30645120227; Tue, 8 May 2018 02:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcjfUb5P1eVn; Tue, 8 May 2018 02:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4693312D7E5; Tue, 8 May 2018 02:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t11so17750845wmt.0; Tue, 08 May 2018 02:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uQoBEhmmsip8F1CKzDyRvNBv9uBoc7U0SbRrk3BfVzE=; b=enx5RSqVNG/79YjirT+mi/2ICKspZO93/vt51A+BiJL7zOgnK4C/7zGMlVGcZwZ7j0 L40YXeYHxYGlsFsZtWycQoWkRWwCUu04jYWBu5e6wokCvQuBCfSXsLwPNSzYSPd2yR2a +Sk36uY2bAbqigXH1GHYoDd3/0Rx8rchMAG7K2ry4nSJHVXE4okTo44v5Nga8ajGhChy ix+04S9GSXXRvSrx4mqvnkN6kJ4meMAAc14iaM+mZ8D/19yrVbm3+74W8dgtV9BQimjR +vGTAliAm/zkqEzp5irRvSn76alKBEkb+oTmk4Ol+Ih3a2QEBlDs5BO7p2Pb3Yi80weW AB+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uQoBEhmmsip8F1CKzDyRvNBv9uBoc7U0SbRrk3BfVzE=; b=bgGE3DJ+VbYlMLWTjII2kaejdGctsyqWhXA+nTNJe802KV+XW/essbL3XPjTYNfZTM I4ir6/m3NHteDH2Z2NuuACzI9opqrfoSwOzXClpwnPJ5x4LTygaDVfrWX97D8vsPpQUZ kg/D9WABZROgUbyNmMC5h21zbXrmypDnZFyXjq0ZS2JI2Jazg+Dy8pYRP8o1MnV/AA5a dpbdBlwP6O3nuVEF/YL1rFEBk+piZBL2j51o4S4xvWAB9o7tlH2/2Asan8/pa8znN6c2 5T6l+t/0d+2sbixDKOQj/Utz7/71SPCLXIe0mvlHOfgDpGtW9SZUUPwhL7u+Jxc1A40k kzsw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tARy/ZUbbjKnq00CzEWKFzddyrTDNMFnsV8UtoPJ60jLCkf3B8s zvrVJpZRkZA2NY5ApqDlo+Ps5yAyB+JNrKeiSWI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrzxuxR2JSypVlhmpmFu1wlVNN9qiIvNkGsQisf4fTxKEiN09W5ONTsZcLl8P15n6D7vbbSWllpj1LhsbLcShc= X-Received: by 2002:a50:8fa5:: with SMTP id y34-v6mr54130244edy.290.1525772454736; Tue, 08 May 2018 02:40:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.227 with HTTP; Tue, 8 May 2018 02:40:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0BD74779-D765-49B0-BD89-4B6420C4AF96@gmail.com> References: <0BD74779-D765-49B0-BD89-4B6420C4AF96@gmail.com> From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:40:54 +0300 Message-ID: To: Jeff Tantsura Cc: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd@ietf.org, ospf-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c3519056bae953b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 09:40:59 -0000 --0000000000002c3519056bae953b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff, The new version resolves the comments I had. Thanks for the effort. Cheers, Tal. On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 2:21 AM, Jeff Tantsura wrote: > Hi Tal, > > > > New version (11) should address all your comments. > > Many thanks and please let me know, if there=E2=80=99s anything else. > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > *From: *Tal Mizrahi > *Date: *Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 04:08 > *To: *, < > ospf-chairs@ietf.org>, > *Cc: *, > *Subject: *Re: RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-ospf-segment- > routing-msd.txt > *Resent-From: * > *Resent-To: *Jeff Tantsura , < > uma.chunduri@huawei.com>, , > *Resent-Date: *Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:08:12 -0700 (PDT) > > > > + LSR mailing list. > > > > Cheers, > > Tal. > > > > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM, Tal Mizrahi > wrote: > > Hello > > I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D = review of this > draft. > =E2=80=8Bhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing= -msd/ > > The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, > perform an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitt= ed for publication > to the IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the > draft=E2=80=99s lifetime as a working group document. > > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Document: draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt > Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi > Review Date: April 2018 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > *Summary:* > This document is basically ready for publication, but has a couple of > issues and a few nits that should be considered prior to being submitted = to > the IESG. > > *Comments:* > > - The Security Considerations should be more detailed. The reference > to RFC 7770 is a good start, but please add more details about potenti= al > attacks. For example, what happens if there is a spoofed MSD with a lo= w MSD > value? What is the impact of such an attack? > - Section 3: > > > - The description of the Length field says =E2=80=9Cminimum of 2=E2=80= =9D, implying it > can be higher than 2. > On the other hand, the Value field: =E2=80=9Cconsists of a 1 octet = sub-type > (IANA Registry) and 1 octet value.=E2=80=9D, which implies that the= Length is equal > to 2. > Please align the two descriptions, i.e., if flexibility for future > sub-types is required, please change the description of Value to al= low > longer values. > - The comment applies to Section 4 as well. > > *Nits:* > > - The term =E2=80=9Cminimum MSD=E2=80=9D, which translates to =E2=80= =9Cminimum maximum SID > Depth=E2=80=9D should be explained. > - The term =E2=80=9Cmaximum MSD=E2=80=9D appears twice in the document= , which seems > either redundant, or a typo (did you mean minimum MSD?). > - The acronym SID should be spelled out on its first use. > - The acronyms RI and LSA should be added to the Terminology > subsection. > - Section 1.1.1 and Section 2 are both titled =E2=80=9CTerminology=E2= =80=9D. It would > be best to merge Section 1.1 into Section 2, and avoid the duplicate t= itle. > - =E2=80=9Ceach node/link a given SR path=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Ceach no= de/link of a given SR > path=E2=80=9D > - =E2=80=9Cnodes and links which has been configured=E2=80=9D -> =E2= =80=9Cnodes and links that > have been configured=E2=80=9D > - =E2=80=9Claso=E2=80=9D->=E2=80=9Dalso=E2=80=9D > - =E2=80=9COther Sub-types other than defined=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9CSub= -types other than > defined=E2=80=9D > > > > > > Cheers, > > Tal Mizrahi. > > > --0000000000002c3519056bae953b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Jeff,

    The new version resolves the c= omments I had. Thanks for the effort.

    Cheers,
    Tal.


    On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 2:21 AM, Jeff Tantsura <j= efftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Tal,

    =C2=A0

    New= version (11) should address all your comments.

    Many thanks and please let me know, if there=E2=80=99s anyth= ing else.

    =C2=A0

    <= div>

    Cheers,

    Jeff

    <= div class=3D"h5">

    =C2=A0

    =

    + LSR mailing list.

    <= span>=C2=A0

    Cheers,

    Ta= l.

    = =C2=A0

    On Sun, Apr 29, 2= 018 at 2:04 PM, Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hello

    I have been selected to do a routin= g directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of this draft.=C2=A0
    =E2=80=8Bhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-= segment-routing-msd/<= /span>

    The routing direc= torate will, on request from the working group chair, perform an =E2=80=9Ce= arly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to t= he IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft=E2= =80=99s lifetime as a working group document.

    For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see=C2=A0=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wik= i/RtgDir

    Document: draft-ietf-= ospf-segment-routing-msd.txt=C2=A0
    Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi
    Review = Date: April 2018=C2=A0
    Intended Status: Standards Track

    <= strong>Summary:=C2= =A0
    This document is basically ready for publication, but has a couple o= f issues and a few nits that should be considered prior to being submitted = to the IESG.

    Comments:=

    • The Security Considerations should be more detailed. The referen= ce to RFC 7770 is a good start, but please add more details about potential= attacks. For example, what happens if there is a spoofed MSD with a low MS= D value? What is the impact of such an attack?
    • Section 3:
    • = The description of the Length field says =E2=80=9Cminimum of 2=E2=80= =9D, implying it can be higher than 2.
      On the other hand, the Value fiel= d: =E2=80=9Cconsists of a 1 octet sub-type (IANA Registry) and 1 octet valu= e.=E2=80=9D, which implies that the Length is equal to 2.
      Please align t= he two descriptions, i.e., if flexibility for future sub-types is required,= please change the description of Value to allow longer values.
    • The comment applies to Section 4 as well.

    Nits:

    • The term = =E2=80=9Cminimum MSD=E2=80=9D, which translates to =E2=80=9Cminimum maximum= SID Depth=E2=80=9D should be explained.<= /span>
    • <= span>The term =E2=80=9Cmaximum MSD=E2=80=9D appears twice in the document,= which seems either redundant, or a typo (did you mean minimum MSD?).
    • The acronym SID should be spelled out on= its first use.
    • The acronyms RI and= LSA should be added to the Terminology subsection.<= /u>
    • Section 1.1.1 and Section 2 are both titled =E2=80=9CTermi= nology=E2=80=9D. It would be best to merge Section 1.1 into Section 2, and = avoid the duplicate title.
      • =E2=80= =9Ceach node/link a given SR path=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Ceach node/link of= a given SR path=E2=80=9D
    • =E2=80=9C= nodes and links which has been configured=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Cnodes and= links that have been configured=E2=80=9D=
    • = =E2=80=9Claso=E2=80=9D->=E2=80=9Dalso=E2=80=9D
    • =E2=80=9COther Sub-types other than defined=E2=80=9D = -> =E2=80=9CSub-types other than defined=E2=80=9D=

    =C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    Cheers,

    =

    Tal Mizrahi.

    =C2=A0=


    --0000000000002c3519056bae953b-- From nobody Fri May 11 19:10:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B6412DA22; Fri, 11 May 2018 19:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ejbIJll6yrOQ; Fri, 11 May 2018 19:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC5FC12426E; Fri, 11 May 2018 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6539E58C4BC; Sat, 12 May 2018 04:09:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 4F753440218; Sat, 12 May 2018 04:09:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 04:09:44 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180512020944.kg5mehv2bfc2ydle@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 02:09:54 -0000 Diff: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt Latest version: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt On Mon, May 07, 2018 at 07:05:10PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Comments in line. Areas of clear agreement elided. Comments in line. Removed sections closed by you. > On 5/7/18 3:30 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > If the rsub is empty, but the extensions are not > > > empty, it looks like there will be two plus signs (following the optional > > > acp-address) before the first extension. Is that intended as the way to > > > indicate the absence of the rsub? > > > > Yes. Otherwise it would be ambiguous to parse. Haven't > > written something about this because i think readers eithrer > > don't care or the can figure it out easily. > > I think it would help to state it explicitly. In this specification, the "acp-address" field is REQUIRED, but future variations (see may use local information to derive the ACP address. In this case, "acp-address" could be empty. Such a variation would be indicated by an appropriate "extension". If "acp-address" is empty, and "rsub" is empty too, the "local-part" will have the format "rfcSELF + + extension(s)". The two plus characters are necessary so the node can unambiguously parse that both "acp-address" and "rsub" are empty. > (section 6.1.1) > > > It also seems odd that the rsub (which is a > > > domain extension) appears in the local-part of the domain information, not in > > > the domain name. Even though for hashing purposes it is concatenated, with a > > > period, with the domain name. > > > If these oddities are intentional, then there ought to be explanations so the > > > reader is not confused. > > > > The difference between domain and routing-subdomain are explained directly after > > the BNF: > > > > "domain" is used to indicate the ACP Domain across which all ACP nodes trust each other and are willing to build ACP channel to each other. See . > > > > "routing-subdomain" is the autonomic subdomain that is used to calculate the hash for the ULA prefix of the ACP address of the node. ... > > > > Added: > > > > "rsub" needs to be in the "local-part"; it could not syntactically be separated from "domain-name" if "domain" is just a domain name. It also makes it easier for domain name to be a valid e-mail target. > > Okay. It is odd, but works. Any easier choice coming to mind ? I wouldn't know how. > > > I presume there is not an assumption that all ULA addressed communicating > > > with a node which supports the ACP will be over the ACP. As I understand > > > it, ULAs may well have other uses outside of ANIMA / the ACP. Which leads > > > to a question about how the text in 6.1.3 "If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 ULA, > > > the ACP node will try to reach it via the ACP." is expected to be supported? > > > > The reason is that the ACP certificate maintenance runs across the ACP so that > > we have a simple security model for the ACP certificate lifecycle. We do not > > want to have to figure out the impact of attacks against connectivity to the CDP > > when it runs across the data plane. After all, these are ACP certificates are > > also renewed via EST across the ACP. > > > > I added the following explanation sentence: > > > > Reaching the CDP across the ACP implies that the CDPs > > need to be reachable via the ACP, for example by running CDPs on > > registrars or on devices connected to the ACP via ACP connect (see ). > > While a useful addition, that is not what I was asking about. The text as > written seems to say that simply because the RDP uses an IPv6 ULA, the node > will know to use ACP for the communication. I understand why we awant the > communication to use ACP. I don't understand how that is achieved. The way > the text is written, it seems to imply that it is a property of IPv6 ULAs. > Which I don't think is your intention. Originally it was meant to be indicated by ULA address, yes, but i think its better/simpler just to decide based on DNS being used. > So I would like to see clarification. Ok, refined the text as follows: If the CDP URL uses an IPv6 address (ULA address when using the addressing rules specified in this document), the ACP node will connect to the CDP via the ACP. If the CDP uses a domain name, the ACP node will connect to the CDP via the data-plane. It is common to use domains name for CDP(s), but there is no requirement for the ACP to support DNS. Any DNS lookup in the data-plane is not only a possible security issue, but it would also not indicate whether the resolved address is meant to be reachable across the ACP. Therefore, the use of an IPv6 address versus the use of a DNS name doubles as an indicator whether or not to reach the CDP via the ACP. A CDP can be reachable across the ACP either by running it on a node with ACP or by connecting its node via ACP connect (see ). The CDP SHOULD use an ACP domain certificate for its HTTPs connections. The connecting ACP node SHOULD verify that the CDP certificate used during the HTTPs connection has the same ACP address as indicated in the CDP URL of the nodes ACP domain certificate > > > The discovery text in section6.3 states that discovery should be run in > > > every physical interface. Is this intended to be restricted by policy, as > > > described in section 5, bullet 2? > > > > As said above for 5 bullet 2, it is permissible to be modified, the ACP > > draft does not suggest or recommends any modifications other than those in 6.3, > > aka: physical interfaces. > > I think you simply need to say "Unless modified by policy as noted earlier, > ..." As currently written, the text prohibits the policy over-reide you > want. changed to: Unless modified by policy as noted earlier ( bullet point 2.), native interfaces (e.g.: physical interfaces on physical nodes) SHOULD be initialized ... > > > *** The explanation in section 6.5 on channel selection (and security > > > protocol selection) is worded as if the described behavior will lead to > > > reliable interoperation. The text on why there are limitations (reasonable) > > > doe not explain why mandating dTLS support would not be a reasonable step. (I > > > hope I missing something, as otherwise this is a major problem rather than > > > being minor.) It is also hard to align this with the requirements in section > > > 6.7.3. > > > > I think there is no issue. Let me explain: > > I think I understand your reasoning, and the various constraints that you > face. However, when all is said and done, you seem to have two mechanisms, > and no requirement that all devices must support one of them. Which seems > to mean that two independent devices may not have an implementation of the > channel / security selection that leads to interoperability. That seems a > major issue. Saying "we couldn't find a good answer" is not usually an > acceptable IETF answer for interoperability. > (text retained for future discussion) Think of channel protocols like interface types. We also do not have a requirement that all nodes MUST have WiFI or 100 Mbps ethernet or 40 Gbps fiber. And yet we manage to build an Internet across all those device interconnecting them all. Same thing with channel security protocols. The requirement right now describes two profiles (6.7.3): "baseline ACP node" - MUST support IPsec "constrained ACP node" - node that can not support IPsec, MUST support dTLS. In the same way you use a WiFi access point connecting your ethernet with your WiFi equipment, you would use a baseline ACP node that also supports dTLS to interconnect constrained and unconstrained nodes. This also well matches how constrained node networks are built: Some gateway node that is not constrained, but also supports whatever (mostly constrained) network/radio the constrained nodes use. If you think this should be explained more in more detail in the doc, let me know. I could simply add above example as text. > > A constrained ACP node that can not support IPsec MUST support dTLS. > The change helps, but as noted above does not seem sufficient. See above, the "can not support IPsec" was only meant as a definition of what a constrained node is, but not to change the basic property of ACP networks that different links / nodes can have different protocol options and that there is no "one-fits-all" MTI necessary. > > > If I have used section 6.10.3 properly, when the Zone-ID is 0, all nodes > > > within the ULA are within a flat address space. that does turn the address > > > into an identifier. It is, as far as I can tell from the description, > > > still a locator in that packets will be routed to the node using the > > > address including the node identifier. It just means that routing has to > > > work in /127 addresses. (There is also a reference to "identifier" in > > > 6.10.3.1. From the usage there, I think that the intention is that this is > > > the generic "name" for the node. Given that it is routable, it is simply > > > an addresses, not an identifier or a locator.) > > > > My driver license number is (intended to be) an identifier. It stays an indentifier > > even if someone starts building a network with a routing table for driver license > > numbers. Likewise, the intent of zone=0 numbers is to be identifiers. And > > yes, they do double a locators when you have a flat routing table which is > > what we do in this doc. > > > > We just didn't describe options where zone=0 would not double as a locator, > > that is meant to be left for future work if we see sufficient use cases for it. > > We just tried to make the definitions extensible and define the intent of the > > format to be that of identifiers. > > Since the design specifically uses the same field as both the identifier and > the locator, I do not think it is fair or appropriate to describe it as > being purely an identifier. The fact that you could possibly use it as an > identifier later doesn't make it so. Do we (IETF) have any normative or otherwise uncontested definition for the criteria required to call an address an identifier ? Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime of the device. - It does not change when i move the node to a different location and re-connect the device. - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written above. > Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the > mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are > trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address > structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings > available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that > hurt. The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. see below for more > > The difference in interpretation > > > is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the > > > same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They > > > should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in > > > the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two > > > different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema > > > identifier (making it 3 bits). > > > > We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because > > that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce > > virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. > > > > So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out > > of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. > > > > Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO > > textually correct to have them in different subsections. > > > > Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, > > the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and > > best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space > > utilization and not beauty of encoding. > > > > Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 > > routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. > > > > If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, > > i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route > > optimization possible through the placement of Z. > > Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, > trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. > > While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z > bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the > field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. > > I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the > front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated > by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. Done. (see diff). > > I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; > > nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you > > have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. > > > > To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. > > I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it > work. I pity the code reviewer. I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system complexity, especially registrars. > > > In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed > > > usage is for more V values > > > > Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the > > needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it > > if it actually is still there. > > The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the > zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. Thanks, changed sentence to: V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: existing text: ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... > > > the document goes on to introduce the > > > complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how > > > long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to > > > explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that > > > begs for mistakes in implementation. > > > > I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and > > some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, > > therefore these two choices. > > See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address > format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. > > What would break if you didn't define any of this? One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the functionality, which i think is all required. I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, especially to correctly support important options we may have overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. > > Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem > > of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require > > a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent > > than address space allocations would become a complex dependency > > making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that > > offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. > > It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. > > Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the > variations proved a bad choice. Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. > > > In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the > > > point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it > > > seems here that we will not do so ? > > > > As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 > > (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, > > but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be > > appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important > > to carve out addressing space to support this. > The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot > of trouble to enable in your addressing design. Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO better done in a followup document because all the cases where we did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve bits for them through the zone field. > ... > > > *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning > > > of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can > > > understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, > > > that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already > > > understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any > > > traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" > > > would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The > > > justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from > > > doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction > > > between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well > > > understood.) > > > > Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. > > If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. > Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a > small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood > configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. > > My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is > important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration > model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly > have the right to cause the discussion. > > Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY > wrong. > > Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of > admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these > as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is based on. Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with this. I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. > (text retained for context of further discussions.) > > > > > I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and > > achieve its goals is what we have written. > > > > The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of > > the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. > > > > We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. > > Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. > > > > The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" > > into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that > > affects the physcial infra. > > > > If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, > > the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: > > only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, > > e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. > > And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or > > intentional misuse. > > > > Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator > > of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN > > and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw > > up that network you're meant to manage. > > > > And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their > > interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary > > to reach the VM. > > > > In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management > > channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking > > your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > > > > > *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable > > > functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. > > > > The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity > > would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled > > the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator > > did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. > > The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration > change. We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate or differently is definitely wide open. I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define different access levels to configuration so far, at least not between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. > > > Editorial / Nits: > . > > > In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits > > > is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It > > > would be nice to explain it. > > > > Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an > > explicit reference ? > > I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation > and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. Cheers Toerless From nobody Sat May 12 16:04:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB8012D879; Sat, 12 May 2018 16:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehrkkbjssBNI; Sat, 12 May 2018 16:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8754A1270AC; Sat, 12 May 2018 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFB820090; Sat, 12 May 2018 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id D2B5693B; Sat, 12 May 2018 19:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF84D83B; Sat, 12 May 2018 19:04:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: rtg-ads@ietf.org CC: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, bfd@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 23:04:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir=20 Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussi= on or by updating the draft.=20 Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt=20 Reviewer: Michael Richardson Review Date: 2018-05-12 IETF LC End Date: unknown Intended Status: Standards Track=20 Summary:=20 This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation nits that should be considered prior to publication.=20 Comments: It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and well-throught out way to extend BFD to multicast uses. I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself to any place that BFD is used. I would like to perhaps better understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS, PIM/IP-level multicast). I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies might be keeping me in the dark.=20 I'm not generally happy with documents that say: "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]." because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two documents next to eachother. For an implementer, I'm not sure that there is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the convenience of those writing it. I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the pseudo= -code. As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, so this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the pseudo-code. (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists) I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense, it seemed well written and understandable. Major Issues: No major issues found. Minor Issues: No minor issues found. Nits: "the tail declares the path to having failed." <- s/having/have/ =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBWvdy+4CLcPvd0N1lAQKhwQf+Ki1MUhmxkNllIq4UE8QZtYtQILV/Bjbf Fb5NddcVigyw/4gPAhsFi4AC5K/Z0oy9GZgcigz6bPYGYjyd7cQoUS1D8MviWv3e bN2q8DPqnB3DMi6p4IYqBO0KaOGdNkuabaa3KAoCCkQl4OYBUasmpG1I0bDkNC1H t9/qJyOY+ylkz8Lt1qfE/7EG173T6zQJxqDHEILAOMLKwulPzY/wlMtVDOqZNs2c fhM6XQOx6pezAACQirue3+S4PHWgkQtKzuv+rB8fHl+hYw65pGO/nmgA19tAky/E 64vX1+2fpQS243rsXZlyADZUUBeLBkIFwcj0lATZ/eNWPZ25Plhj9w== =+Mpp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun May 13 16:38:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31652126CC7; Sun, 13 May 2018 16:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNmUrPj3MzfT; Sun, 13 May 2018 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D635C124B18; Sun, 13 May 2018 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B361D3E4531; Sun, 13 May 2018 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1526254717; bh=+OtFLVCTAJV9KaKoJghReEmaXVZRevC9GgDYN//NDis=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=V2AjbvMfHyv97NkOgRurpUo2OyqQ+mXqaPOfGFefLG0bF9iHEilIjLxzGwqzbWkdl 73cc64UyTM1Lm5I2vOUA5XinpPQCxgQ5aoGHp+8I1fZVE/Dt05wo1/0iNeb5zdCxZm G6tL0aB3BOOe62fotcecTTUMKbdFir5zrl2mmh1o= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 599543E4530; Sun, 13 May 2018 16:38:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180512020944.kg5mehv2bfc2ydle@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <10178dd0-e0d2-784e-e2a6-0cb91c3bc952@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 19:38:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180512020944.kg5mehv2bfc2ydle@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 23:38:40 -0000 Trimmed. Top posting for clarity. Mostly, agreement. On the MTI Security, I will leave it to the relevant ADs to decide if they find what is in there sufficient. On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms is confusing. But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more carefully. Thank you for moving the Z bit. I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we still need it. Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA. And because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in defining what ULA prefix is used. Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format definition. I suspect I am missing something very basic. Why not leave this to the deploying operator? It is not like it can be autonomic, since something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers within some of the formats to use. I could imagine something that said "in the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to one specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. But it would be a simple scheme. Yours, Joel On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Diff: > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > Latest version: > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > ... > Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: > > - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime > of the device. > - It does not change when i move the node to a different location > and re-connect the device. > - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) > and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, > but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). > > Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written > above. (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) >> Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the >> mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are >> trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address >> structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings >> available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that >> hurt. > > The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length > handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits > (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments > as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. > > We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you > want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex > address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. > > see below for more > >>> The difference in interpretation >>>> is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the >>>> same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They >>>> should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in >>>> the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two >>>> different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema >>>> identifier (making it 3 bits). >>> >>> We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because >>> that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce >>> virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. >>> >>> So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out >>> of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. >>> >>> Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO >>> textually correct to have them in different subsections. >>> >>> Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, >>> the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and >>> best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space >>> utilization and not beauty of encoding. >>> >>> Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 >>> routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. >>> >>> If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, >>> i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route >>> optimization possible through the placement of Z. >> >> Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, >> trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. >> >> While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z >> bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the >> field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. >> >> I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the >> front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated >> by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. > > Done. (see diff). > >>> I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; >>> nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you >>> have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. >>> >>> To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. >> >> I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it >> work. I pity the code reviewer. > > I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing > and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system > complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the > multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. > I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system > complexity, especially registrars. > >>>> In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed >>>> usage is for more V values >>> >>> Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the >>> needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it >>> if it actually is still there. >> >> The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the >> zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. > > Thanks, changed sentence to: > > V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. > > The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples > when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: > > existing text: > ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... > >>>> the document goes on to introduce the >>>> complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how >>>> long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to >>>> explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that >>>> begs for mistakes in implementation. >>> >>> I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and >>> some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, >>> therefore these two choices. >> >> See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address >> format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. >> >> What would break if you didn't define any of this? > > One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the > address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the > address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in > the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type > of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and > address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) > IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the > functionality, which i think is all required. > > I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in > the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the > resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place > that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have > to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: > access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information > field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end > up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. > > I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would > be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot > more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, > especially to correctly support important options we may have > overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently > to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. > >>> Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem >>> of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require >>> a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent >>> than address space allocations would become a complex dependency >>> making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that >>> offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. >>> It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. >> >> Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the >> variations proved a bad choice. > > Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is > what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 > did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 > multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. > >>>> In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the >>>> point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it >>>> seems here that we will not do so ? >>> >>> As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 >>> (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, >>> but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be >>> appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important >>> to carve out addressing space to support this. >> The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot >> of trouble to enable in your addressing design. > > Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not > think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms > how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO > better done in a followup document because all the cases where we > did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular > deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. > Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve > bits for them through the zone field. > >> ... >>>> *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning >>>> of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can >>>> understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, >>>> that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already >>>> understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any >>>> traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" >>>> would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The >>>> justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from >>>> doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction >>>> between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well >>>> understood.) >>> >>> Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. >> >> If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. >> Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a >> small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood >> configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. >> >> My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is >> important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration >> model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly >> have the right to cause the discussion. >> >> Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY >> wrong. >> >> Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of >> admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these >> as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. > > Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the > interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and > as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually > does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down > phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down > one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the > other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is > based on. > > Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? > > I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant > informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting > interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity > for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. > > If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this > could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, > but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would > be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with > this. > > I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was > specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand > how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller > operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) > as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. > >> (text retained for context of further discussions.) >> >>> >>> I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and >>> achieve its goals is what we have written. >>> >>> The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of >>> the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. >>> >>> We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. >>> Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. >>> >>> The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" >>> into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that >>> affects the physcial infra. >>> >>> If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, >>> the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: >>> only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, >>> e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. >>> And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or >>> intentional misuse. >>> >>> Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator >>> of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN >>> and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw >>> up that network you're meant to manage. >>> >>> And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their >>> interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary >>> to reach the VM. >>> >>> In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management >>> channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking >>> your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. >>> >>>> *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable >>>> functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. >>> >>> The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity >>> would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled >>> the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator >>> did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. >> >> The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration >> change. > > We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote > equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating > an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to > impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore > reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah > forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate > or differently is definitely wide open. > > I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are > a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define > different access levels to configuration so far, at least not > between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. > > As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a > good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means > already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least > in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled > the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course > complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this > evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. > > So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to > have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead > of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. > It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. > >>>> Editorial / Nits: >> . >>>> In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits >>>> is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It >>>> would be nice to explain it. >>> >>> Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an >>> explicit reference ? >> >> I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation >> and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. > > Cheers > Toerless > From nobody Sun May 13 22:24:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72081201FA; Sun, 13 May 2018 22:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8lqKNFSgQ_t; Sun, 13 May 2018 22:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x229.google.com (mail-pg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14DDD1200A0; Sun, 13 May 2018 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x229.google.com with SMTP id n1-v6so4969444pgs.2; Sun, 13 May 2018 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=L8diKEN28Zg03EopN6vNRhrg3syv+VfCeSdx491qtNA=; b=YtssvYYxWWKibeZWgD2cqq88MsWvNF3Hv/jedxu+ndbn3ACsw1goT61adzd9+hkexj Ip0eeUJszqoSkdAD3rX2kUDLeteHo0dUywRk4OMQ9EH1+tGdq/zi5JnR5mGmteP8HqA2 skd3Ve7spJs/LARjKCEJhznVgf+m0G6gQFSTEyDovfzJ0fCrbwVSgQWKbjBn3jcQ0X9j kKs4ta4eHz6dG78oY3wkGd9YjgiAqKzStldKcfVctqn67bhgaMDI07HJYrIz0Flv/txf vJYjBwe4NP8K/AGnkLgVs7IsWKzhF9ANMtRrbyu/rcssT/kmpol7znJRxrcXhmH487z/ 2sNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L8diKEN28Zg03EopN6vNRhrg3syv+VfCeSdx491qtNA=; b=hFLBgTSY0jByQMcMJHnP0sjfFclfel1UYzeNS1XrX88aznubgoIk1K5Kc1fYTCZdaq 2DkKmNSUFo2pTutWNYB5knDQKeQd743Z6DJAVecAK1XT0xi5cdvJJq0IaZGv5hoUn3ku TWxE9UTjoc/RO7703oRcspKSw36H54UXlbEUNCIwJAQcJBnFQoiGziCXPqL20hnJfdf2 V9ZIW8MRIj/ckMe0JUg6pgNREN1CJi5gDcFylqTvRYHiZlpibv3MwE9x2LXJi3f1zzms R/2YdqJat9DS/77ykU/4zUHKDx7QlEZTJUFgol55hYPChfX+kyQMfp8OlE1/wGv3b8HC gwOw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdPzItWvjHV7zdh1GQfSJrSZThxns+UMwXNN7VByJZ63s1rOWDt 2zzD+8H8kv7At146ZLgD9CPYJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZpFk6GrqROLBapWx+I7HK7i1TZcHj11FPwQrbvk4H98qi1NV5dSHDaUMIqrzHYj2vskEcZCpw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7807:: with SMTP id t7-v6mr79323pgc.125.1526275438554; Sun, 13 May 2018 22:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.27] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r90-v6sm20948254pfg.122.2018.05.13.22.23.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 13 May 2018 22:23:57 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Toerless Eckert Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180512020944.kg5mehv2bfc2ydle@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <10178dd0-e0d2-784e-e2a6-0cb91c3bc952@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <40cb597e-4513-cebf-5aa4-ee6a54a8367d@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 17:23:51 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10178dd0-e0d2-784e-e2a6-0cb91c3bc952@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 05:24:03 -0000 Joel, Consider this: > The 64 bit Node-ID is derived and composed as follows: > > o Registrar-ID (48 bit): A number unique inside the domain that > identifies the registrar which assigned the Node-ID to the node. > A MAC address of the registrar can be used for this purpose. > > o Node-Number: A number which is unique for a given registrar, to > identify the node. This can be a sequentially assigned number. plus > If a node learns through a future autonomic method or through > configuration that it is part of a zone, it MUST also respond to its > ACP address with that Zone-ID. Basically it's a scheme for all autonomic nodes to get a unique address in a potentially flat address space, with the help of a registrar node, and without the help of a human. My understanding is that the nodes know the format because it's built into the code that each node runs to join the ACP. It's certainly not the only possible scheme. Maybe that should be stated? Regards Brian On 14/05/2018 11:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Trimmed. > Top posting for clarity. Mostly, agreement. > On the MTI Security, I will leave it to the relevant ADs to decide if > they find what is in there sufficient. > > On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms is > confusing. But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text > elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. > > I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more > carefully. Thank you for moving the Z bit. > I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we > still need it. > Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. > > I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA. And > because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in > defining what ULA prefix is used. > > Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format > definition. I suspect I am missing something very basic. Why not leave > this to the deploying operator? It is not like it can be autonomic, > since something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what > numbers within some of the formats to use. I could imagine something > that said "in the absence of configuration, construct device addresses > according to one specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. > But it would be a simple scheme. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> >> Diff: >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt >> >> Latest version: >> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt >> > .... >> Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: >> >> - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime >> of the device. >> - It does not change when i move the node to a different location >> and re-connect the device. >> - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) >> and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, >> but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). >> >> Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written >> above. > > (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) >>> Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the >>> mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are >>> trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address >>> structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings >>> available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that >>> hurt. >> >> The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length >> handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits >> (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments >> as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. >> >> We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you >> want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex >> address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. >> >> see below for more >> >>>> The difference in interpretation >>>>> is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the >>>>> same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They >>>>> should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in >>>>> the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two >>>>> different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema >>>>> identifier (making it 3 bits). >>>> >>>> We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because >>>> that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce >>>> virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. >>>> >>>> So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out >>>> of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. >>>> >>>> Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO >>>> textually correct to have them in different subsections. >>>> >>>> Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, >>>> the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and >>>> best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space >>>> utilization and not beauty of encoding. >>>> >>>> Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 >>>> routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. >>>> >>>> If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, >>>> i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route >>>> optimization possible through the placement of Z. >>> >>> Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, >>> trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. >>> >>> While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z >>> bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the >>> field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. >>> >>> I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the >>> front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated >>> by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. >> >> Done. (see diff). >> >>>> I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; >>>> nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you >>>> have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. >>>> >>>> To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. >>> >>> I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it >>> work. I pity the code reviewer. >> >> I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing >> and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system >> complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the >> multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. >> I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system >> complexity, especially registrars. >> >>>>> In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed >>>>> usage is for more V values >>>> >>>> Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the >>>> needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it >>>> if it actually is still there. >>> >>> The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the >>> zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. >> >> Thanks, changed sentence to: >> >> V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. >> >> The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples >> when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: >> >> existing text: >> ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... >> >>>>> the document goes on to introduce the >>>>> complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how >>>>> long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to >>>>> explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that >>>>> begs for mistakes in implementation. >>>> >>>> I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and >>>> some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, >>>> therefore these two choices. >>> >>> See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address >>> format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. >>> >>> What would break if you didn't define any of this? >> >> One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the >> address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the >> address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in >> the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type >> of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and >> address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) >> IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the >> functionality, which i think is all required. >> >> I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in >> the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the >> resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place >> that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have >> to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: >> access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information >> field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end >> up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. >> >> I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would >> be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot >> more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, >> especially to correctly support important options we may have >> overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently >> to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. >> >>>> Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem >>>> of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require >>>> a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent >>>> than address space allocations would become a complex dependency >>>> making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that >>>> offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. >>>> It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. >>> >>> Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the >>> variations proved a bad choice. >> >> Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is >> what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 >> did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 >> multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. >> >>>>> In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the >>>>> point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it >>>>> seems here that we will not do so ? >>>> >>>> As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 >>>> (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, >>>> but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be >>>> appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important >>>> to carve out addressing space to support this. >>> The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot >>> of trouble to enable in your addressing design. >> >> Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not >> think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms >> how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO >> better done in a followup document because all the cases where we >> did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular >> deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. >> Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve >> bits for them through the zone field. >> >>> ... >>>>> *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning >>>>> of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can >>>>> understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, >>>>> that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already >>>>> understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any >>>>> traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" >>>>> would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The >>>>> justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from >>>>> doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction >>>>> between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well >>>>> understood.) >>>> >>>> Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. >>> >>> If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. >>> Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a >>> small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood >>> configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. >>> >>> My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is >>> important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration >>> model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly >>> have the right to cause the discussion. >>> >>> Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY >>> wrong. >>> >>> Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of >>> admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these >>> as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. >> >> Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the >> interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and >> as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually >> does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down >> phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down >> one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the >> other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is >> based on. >> >> Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? >> >> I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant >> informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting >> interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity >> for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. >> >> If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this >> could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, >> but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would >> be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with >> this. >> >> I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was >> specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand >> how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller >> operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) >> as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. >> >>> (text retained for context of further discussions.) >>> >>>> >>>> I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and >>>> achieve its goals is what we have written. >>>> >>>> The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of >>>> the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. >>>> >>>> We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. >>>> Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. >>>> >>>> The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" >>>> into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that >>>> affects the physcial infra. >>>> >>>> If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, >>>> the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: >>>> only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, >>>> e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. >>>> And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or >>>> intentional misuse. >>>> >>>> Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator >>>> of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN >>>> and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw >>>> up that network you're meant to manage. >>>> >>>> And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their >>>> interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary >>>> to reach the VM. >>>> >>>> In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management >>>> channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking >>>> your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. >>>> >>>>> *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable >>>>> functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. >>>> >>>> The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity >>>> would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled >>>> the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator >>>> did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. >>> >>> The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration >>> change. >> >> We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote >> equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating >> an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to >> impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore >> reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah >> forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate >> or differently is definitely wide open. >> >> I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are >> a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define >> different access levels to configuration so far, at least not >> between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. >> >> As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a >> good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means >> already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least >> in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled >> the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course >> complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this >> evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. >> >> So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to >> have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead >> of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. >> It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. >> >>>>> Editorial / Nits: >>> . >>>>> In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits >>>>> is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It >>>>> would be nice to explain it. >>>> >>>> Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an >>>> explicit reference ? >>> >>> I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation >>> and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> > > From nobody Mon May 14 01:32:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0242212D7F0; Mon, 14 May 2018 01:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSI3ju3td5bm; Mon, 14 May 2018 01:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01on0107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.2.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FC2B12420B; Mon, 14 May 2018 01:32:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=RESgTwYSm6GGwVmYIMEhEYa63ybRQbrnggOFn+GIzZ4=; b=k7/jaJ4znhNbwEtgA2+pEcuyrJuzzBqpbh5CL56HYvZOAVxhsjl7bBoWt275aDlczRk5nq8YtCfucrqConiAcZkyzrrWa2Ru7B8k+i+BJ47qOH9kmfDtVZ4UDOgJLst1SacGBI3uxQflgagww0XhDdgPdTSa0N+idpW/j6/yjMU= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=martin.vigoureux@nokia.com; Received: from [192.168.1.21] (86.246.66.63) by AM5PR0701MB2499.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:203:10::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.776.4; Mon, 14 May 2018 08:32:21 +0000 To: Michael Richardson , rtg-ads@ietf.org Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, bfd@ietf.org References: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <28935.1526166269@localhost> From: Martin Vigoureux Message-ID: <27d6bdc4-b4b7-b544-0fad-1f8b57d088d3@nokia.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 10:32:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; 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The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special > request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing > ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion > or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt > Reviewer: Michael Richardson > Review Date: 2018-05-12 > IETF LC End Date: unknown > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > > This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation nits > that should be considered prior to publication. > > Comments: > > It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and well-throught > out way to extend BFD to multicast uses. > > I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself to > any place that BFD is used. I would like to perhaps better > understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS, > PIM/IP-level multicast). > > I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies might > be keeping me in the dark. > > I'm not generally happy with documents that say: > "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]." > > because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two > documents next to eachother. For an implementer, I'm not sure that there > is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the > convenience of those writing it. > > I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the pseudo-code. > As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, so > this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the > pseudo-code. (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists) > > I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense, it > seemed well written and understandable. > > Major Issues: > > No major issues found. > > Minor Issues: > > No minor issues found. > > Nits: > > "the tail declares the path to having failed." <- s/having/have/ > > From nobody Mon May 14 02:04:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FDC12D87C; Mon, 14 May 2018 02:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v_Qx6yL6vyTH; Mon, 14 May 2018 02:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EBC312D7F0; Mon, 14 May 2018 02:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9652658C4DD; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:04:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 8AF84440218; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:04:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 11:04:25 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <151995712572.15727.501156104518975926@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180507193019.nebavxqhv2jxkngt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180512020944.kg5mehv2bfc2ydle@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <10178dd0-e0d2-784e-e2a6-0cb91c3bc952@joelhalpern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10178dd0-e0d2-784e-e2a6-0cb91c3bc952@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 09:04:39 -0000 a) Will try to do better explanation of identifier nature of addresses in next commit. b) what do we loose if get rid of the choices. I kinda thought i had answered this already, but i really don't know where your concern starts... 1. We use ULA because we want to be able to bring up ACP networks without requiring a registry allocation of a prefix, and ULA is the correct private address space. And deriving ULA Global ID from hash of domain name is nice. Sounds as if you agree with this. 2. We want to be able to allocate addresses to ACP/ANI devices without any additional configuration from multiple independently running registrars. Thats why the global unique ID of the registrar is part of the address in both zone and Vlong format. Thats very fundamental to the ease of deployment of ACP/ANI nodes (i say ANI, because its really ACP+BRSKI required here to get a simple standard solution to create the cert, otherwise youre down to a vendor specific cert provisioning solution extended with ACP info support) i hope this is uncontentuous 3. a) We wanted to be able to support in the future "zone" = area/region-level route aggregation, thats why the zone scheme reserves those 13 bits. b) We also know use cases where nodes need more than 2 addresses, thats why we have have the 8/16 bit Vlong option. c) We can not do everything autonomically (== addresses assigned from registrars), so we also reserve address space for traditional config (manual address space). Are these three sub-spaces zone,manual,vlong contenuous ? As mentioned in prior email if i wanted to avoid those ca. 3 bits of format indication, i would need to indicate the semantic of addresses somehow differently to the nodes, e.g: via some extension to the ACP format, but i would want to be able to signal the same information. So for example: because we have a standardized addressing scheme, a node that allows configuration of "ACP connect" can make sure that the address configured on an ACP cnnect interface can never be a ULA address that would conflict with an automatic ACP address assignment done by a registrar. So i protect my autonomic address space from misconfiguration. Which is IMHO extremely important. So this is the key justification for the manual address space allocation. Distinguishing between zone and Vlong address spaces is necessary because we just can't fit zone, registrar-ID and node-number and 16 bit of per-node bits into a single addressing scheme. E voila, three (IMHO: simpler) simple options. Likely networks will use all three. Cheers Toerless On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:38:35PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Trimmed. > Top posting for clarity. Mostly, agreement. > > On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms is > confusing. But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text > elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. > > I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more > carefully. Thank you for moving the Z bit. > I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we still > need it. > Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. > > I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA. And > because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in > defining what ULA prefix is used. > > Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format > definition. I suspect I am missing something very basic. Why not leave > this to the deploying operator? It is not like it can be autonomic, since > something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers > within some of the formats to use. I could imagine something that said "in > the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to one > specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. > But it would be a simple scheme. > > > On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Diff: > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > > > Latest version: > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > > .... > > Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: > > > > - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime > > of the device. > > - It does not change when i move the node to a different location > > and re-connect the device. > > - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) > > and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, > > but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). > > > > Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written > > above. > > (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) > > > Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the > > > mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are > > > trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address > > > structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings > > > available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that > > > hurt. > > > > The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length > > handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits > > (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments > > as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. > > > > We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you > > want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex > > address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. > > > > see below for more > > > > > > The difference in interpretation > > > > > is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the > > > > > same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They > > > > > should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in > > > > > the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two > > > > > different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema > > > > > identifier (making it 3 bits). > > > > > > > > We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because > > > > that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce > > > > virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. > > > > > > > > So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out > > > > of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. > > > > > > > > Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO > > > > textually correct to have them in different subsections. > > > > > > > > Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, > > > > the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and > > > > best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space > > > > utilization and not beauty of encoding. > > > > > > > > Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 > > > > routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. > > > > > > > > If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, > > > > i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route > > > > optimization possible through the placement of Z. > > > > > > Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, > > > trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. > > > > > > While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z > > > bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the > > > field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. > > > > > > I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the > > > front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated > > > by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. > > > > Done. (see diff). > > > > > > I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; > > > > nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you > > > > have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. > > > > > > > > To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. > > > > > > I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it > > > work. I pity the code reviewer. > > > > I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing > > and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system > > complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the > > multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. > > I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system > > complexity, especially registrars. > > > > > > > In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed > > > > > usage is for more V values > > > > > > > > Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the > > > > needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it > > > > if it actually is still there. > > > > > > The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the > > > zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. > > > > Thanks, changed sentence to: > > > > V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. > > > > The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples > > when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: > > > > existing text: > > ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... > > > > > > > the document goes on to introduce the > > > > > complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how > > > > > long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to > > > > > explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that > > > > > begs for mistakes in implementation. > > > > > > > > I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and > > > > some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, > > > > therefore these two choices. > > > > > > See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address > > > format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. > > > > > > What would break if you didn't define any of this? > > > > One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the > > address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the > > address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in > > the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type > > of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and > > address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) > > IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the > > functionality, which i think is all required. > > > > I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in > > the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the > > resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place > > that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have > > to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: > > access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information > > field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end > > up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. > > > > I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would > > be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot > > more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, > > especially to correctly support important options we may have > > overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently > > to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. > > > > > > Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem > > > > of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require > > > > a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent > > > > than address space allocations would become a complex dependency > > > > making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that > > > > offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. > > > > It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. > > > > > > Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the > > > variations proved a bad choice. > > > > Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is > > what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 > > did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 > > multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. > > > > > > > In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the > > > > > point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it > > > > > seems here that we will not do so ? > > > > > > > > As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 > > > > (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, > > > > but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be > > > > appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important > > > > to carve out addressing space to support this. > > > The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot > > > of trouble to enable in your addressing design. > > > > Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not > > think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms > > how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO > > better done in a followup document because all the cases where we > > did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular > > deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. > > Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve > > bits for them through the zone field. > > > > > ... > > > > > *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning > > > > > of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can > > > > > understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, > > > > > that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already > > > > > understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any > > > > > traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" > > > > > would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The > > > > > justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from > > > > > doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction > > > > > between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well > > > > > understood.) > > > > > > > > Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. > > > > > > If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. > > > Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a > > > small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood > > > configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. > > > > > > My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is > > > important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration > > > model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly > > > have the right to cause the discussion. > > > > > > Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY > > > wrong. > > > > > > Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of > > > admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these > > > as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. > > > > Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the > > interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and > > as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually > > does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down > > phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down > > one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the > > other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is > > based on. > > > > Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? > > > > I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant > > informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting > > interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity > > for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. > > > > If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this > > could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, > > but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would > > be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with > > this. > > > > I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was > > specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand > > how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller > > operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) > > as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. > > > > > (text retained for context of further discussions.) > > > > > > > > > > > I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and > > > > achieve its goals is what we have written. > > > > > > > > The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of > > > > the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. > > > > > > > > We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. > > > > Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. > > > > > > > > The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" > > > > into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that > > > > affects the physcial infra. > > > > > > > > If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, > > > > the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: > > > > only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, > > > > e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. > > > > And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or > > > > intentional misuse. > > > > > > > > Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator > > > > of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN > > > > and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw > > > > up that network you're meant to manage. > > > > > > > > And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their > > > > interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary > > > > to reach the VM. > > > > > > > > In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management > > > > channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking > > > > your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > > > > > > > > > *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable > > > > > functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. > > > > > > > > The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity > > > > would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled > > > > the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator > > > > did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. > > > > > > The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration > > > change. > > > > We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote > > equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating > > an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to > > impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore > > reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah > > forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate > > or differently is definitely wide open. > > > > I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are > > a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define > > different access levels to configuration so far, at least not > > between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. > > > > As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a > > good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means > > already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least > > in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled > > the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course > > complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this > > evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. > > > > So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to > > have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead > > of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. > > It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. > > > > > > > Editorial / Nits: > > > . > > > > > In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits > > > > > is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It > > > > > would be nice to explain it. > > > > > > > > Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an > > > > explicit reference ? > > > > > > I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation > > > and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon May 14 05:50:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B49712DB6C; Mon, 14 May 2018 05:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nAdRfTM19ivT; Mon, 14 May 2018 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23695124239; Mon, 14 May 2018 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CCD3E5F01; Mon, 14 May 2018 05:50:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1526302201; bh=nBb9TRSXARXKW0J0tMogFRo74c4XR6fBb3Q9wtOywHQ=; h=Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:From:To:Cc:From; b=VNeSa0rMk+L8QFuiUv4M0dmYCHU1bc1cOjfgp56AEnwYp4d8Rz6v58wUjaf2MOLOZ Hcxa467Z4LBVaDm26MLQ/+tfB5/za4SlwQGgE8MFawubjokERvfWeXRt3BPjK3gCRb /7ZZJgg0imVxPzkzb5mqPMOJb7nPhaYMmXwywRSk= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.100.20] (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 055342402CE; Mon, 14 May 2018 05:49:59 -0700 (PDT) SavedFromEmail: jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 08:49:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Importance: normal From: "jmh.direct" To: Toerless Eckert , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--_com.samsung.android.email_10172749362835710" Message-Id: <20180514125001.23695124239@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 12:50:05 -0000 ----_com.samsung.android.email_10172749362835710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB0aGluayB0aGUgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoYXQgeW91IGRlc2NyaWJlLsKgIEFzIGZhciBhcyBJ IGNhbiB0ZWxsLCB0aGUgQUNQIERPRVMgTk9UIEFORCBTSE9ZTEQgTk9UIE1BTkRBVEUgVGhlIGFk ZHJlc3MgYXNzaWdubWVudCBtZWNoYW5pc20uwqAgQnV0IGl0IGlzIHRoZSBhZGRyZXNzIGFzc2ln 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d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=E4YfGJyu1I6LM+xnJlAHcz+jIQPlAHR/crcdXVJ8ynw=; b=irjbhAUOs66+ykk92OGKv5GXBvuLg7I7DRWOuo/Ooc278uoJJRduGSNw+wxdgxbAUu JVXk4Tm9h3CXbmzu5ltK581yi9+UdlF7fqJCSM7vpmwHQ5E+8brlK2A/Q4BCLPV5+ui3 yLXw6v0BPlN9VDmzgqG8tXIUMswnnJLmSVj1wrK554QPf+Ht0kGPS0Q7KL4ADEIAKjKU MPWjdTKTEXpP/a8sBy9ooT7kBTDfUvnDTeGbx6U6QtoikVaNopTBZiXZFOCPVnc0WSaM 2X7qVW4OMYa4EWztac7ssF0T6KNWVCUkDsEbe0IOKUxOMITGN61WLLDTd/LJ3ijkfQwX FqvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=E4YfGJyu1I6LM+xnJlAHcz+jIQPlAHR/crcdXVJ8ynw=; b=t3kf4u1hL6zG/IKpZK/FmiwEjRkNThazkMUzkN9YwfbOtX/vFcLWsguB9B7U5NG9t4 v4/OsKa0KySnPQh4q4DLwLMKBnkgnMGw5QA17BbJiA0VfaMGdNBmKAWz36CZ/sIhq285 WKlsE0iyblSa7MkWEiHWn2CiNzNNWKauWDr9t9RiumY6kH5OUMY/Rtwr3BOxKaMtsjFi 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 18:15:26 -0000 --000000000000fb7db0056c2e774d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, thank you for your thorough review, thoughtful and detailed comments and suggestions. Please find my answers, notes in-line tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts > as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on specia= l > request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routin= g > ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Las= t > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion > or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt > Reviewer: Michael Richardson > Review Date: 2018-05-12 > IETF LC End Date: unknown > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > > This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation ni= ts > that should be considered prior to publication. > > Comments: > > It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and > well-throught > out way to extend BFD to multicast uses. > GIM>> Thank you for your kind consideration and approval of our work. > > I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself t= o > any place that BFD is used. I would like to perhaps better > understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS, > PIM/IP-level multicast). > GIM>> BFD for Multipoint networks, also referred to as p2mp BFD, may be used in single-hop and multi-hop scenarios. Already there are two individual drafts, draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case and draft-mirsky-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case, that demonstrate use of p2mp BFD in single-hop scenario. Will note that the section 4.8 of the draft does explain encapsulation of the multipoint BFD control packet over MPLS LSP using IP/UDP. > > I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies mig= ht > be keeping me in the dark. > > I'm not generally happy with documents that say: > "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]." > > because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two > documents next to eachother. For an implementer, I'm not sure that there > is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the > convenience of those writing it. > GIM>> The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing that make the relationship more clear, e.g.: The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]. And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section 14.3.3: The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 of [RFC5880]. > I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the > pseudo-code. > As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, so > this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the > pseudo-code. (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists) > GIM>> I'll try but perhaps RFC Editor may help us here. > > I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense, > it > seemed well written and understandable. > > Major Issues: > > No major issues found. > > Minor Issues: > > No minor issues found. > > Nits: > > "the tail declares the path to having failed." <- s/having/have/ > GIM>> Accepted to the new working version of the draft. > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > --000000000000fb7db0056c2e774d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Michael,
    thank you for your thorough review, though= tful and detailed comments and suggestions.
    Please find my answer= s, notes in-line tagged GIM>>.

    Regards,
    Greg

    O= n Sat, May 12, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman= .ca> wrote:

    Hello,

    I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e
    Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a= s
    they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<= br> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing<= br> ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
    =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rt= g/trac/wiki/RtgDir

    Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last<= br> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussi= on
    or by updating the draft.

    Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt
    Reviewer: Michael Richardson
    Review Date: 2018-05-12
    IETF LC End Date: unknown
    Intended Status: Standards Track

    Summary:

    This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation nits=
    that should be considered prior to publication.

    Comments:

    It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and well-through= t
    out way to extend BFD to multicast uses.
    GIM>> T= hank you for your kind consideration and approval of our work.=C2=A0
    <= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
    I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself to<= br> any place that BFD is used.=C2=A0 I would like to perhaps better
    understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS,
    PIM/IP-level multicast).
    GIM>> BFD for Multipoin= t networks, also referred to as p2mp BFD, may be used in single-hop and mul= ti-hop scenarios. Already there are two individual drafts,=C2=A0 draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case=C2=A0 = =C2=A0and=C2=A0 draft-mirsky-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case, that demonstrat= e use of p2mp BFD in single-hop scenario. Will note that the section 4.8 of= the draft does explain encapsulation of the multipoint BFD control packet = over MPLS LSP using IP/UDP.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies might=
    be keeping me in the dark.

    I'm not generally happy with documents that say:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5= 880]."

    because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two<= br> documents next to eachother.=C2=A0 For an implementer, I'm not sure tha= t there
    is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the
    convenience of those writing it.
    GIM>> The text = that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the replacement of the= entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing that make the relationsh= ip more clear, e.g.:
    The following procedure replaces the entire secti= on 6.8.6 of [RFC5880].
    And the same can be applied to the first= sentence in section 14.3.3:
    The following procedure replaces the entire section 6= .8.7 of [RFC5880].

    I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the pseudo= -code.
    As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, so this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the pseudo-code.=C2=A0 (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists)
    GIM>> I'll try but perhaps RFC Editor may help us h= ere.=C2=A0

    I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense, i= t
    seemed well written and understandable.

    Major Issues:

    No major issues found.

    Minor Issues:

    No minor issues found.

    Nits:

    "the tail declares the path to having failed."=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <- s/having/have/
    GIM>> Acc= epted to the new working version of the draft.


    --
    Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
    =C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




    --000000000000fb7db0056c2e774d-- From nobody Mon May 14 11:33:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE284127601; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emuk1sGxt9Fu; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3210C1273E2; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id j193-v6so19501535lfg.6; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uviZrwLu3Ptscfw5Sk6VuojajoZNeR3wkZPcDgIJ3jA=; b=cOPShZij0H/6kLVFpXQo+J4MFBM220jO4hUvbf4DaoetnrW046aAAeDAHI4g48Xe/X sLnUXbiyFt456hPUr7MeUzFkOei+WRngtNdsexmnx9nqkSbl7VXmfUq2EdoTEwIJYleS /2Sd7ym7WrKOrDGd0tX9ox73WClG3biKFwkzphxOfuLCBRmTCYJF/wdFK7/jc1616tS4 V99vEzfdZmVtfJgs0heirmVDqjADlafNcjzl5bUqDXDR8+Kt9Riy3Fbi47oiLMJ+uQlx Gt3dkP0OWaOTkyFdkR6beag6fwbiJ4Wp8kntB+YDYPa2d2FWgNpeoPYZWITjlJzfNbx0 Gi0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uviZrwLu3Ptscfw5Sk6VuojajoZNeR3wkZPcDgIJ3jA=; b=DRfJPzKBL+trH68HaQwDoYq/2g1K4N7+nTLP9UJjvRzMVGv31zRPUg8L6ZfrHRMwoz L5dZdTsl74ByH/BT7IouN7z5BUITUQcRBKaDhX5JJmHhRLaQPEXlvD5CjUExYjPC3NYf MP68acPjsR6k6D2VaIfxGX/29PP8kAKyoNhUxOTWclDPMdSgBRV8K785YU9Hqw+1tlST ywJfuCosKyDKvaclQIwjsoDUrURJnt5mxwVwtRj631eAz46R43uEFsIWsLPx6YZZF2j4 H7jT4ySKaK70YXaftVxMF7g71YGqyE5P5j+NAX1Sk/aAxzCHGHzltT/vEfLe75h04A9b azLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwfS6w94aw9rDpk279byWSvx8DkGS0pSE/vpDH51HAWr+fSu315M nmokjAAe83VzFh5dEYOBp2hExhYT8uJCFdErscA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZp3t3+MT8iVzctiq9M4PFQKjn6P4T61v0RbAQPPsGDkRghCKQjTIVVAf3H78+X1ITz3SNXWdvBdI+qNf/XnLLs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:98c5:: with SMTP id s5-v6mr5224551ljj.19.1526322805419; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.133.13 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <28935.1526166269@localhost> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 11:33:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "" , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1363b056c2eb8f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 18:33:31 -0000 --000000000000a1363b056c2eb8f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now with corrected BFD WG list. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote= : > Hi Michael, > thank you for your thorough review, thoughtful and detailed comments and > suggestions. > Please find my answers, notes in-line tagged GIM>>. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> >> Hello, >> >> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. >> The >> Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related draft= s >> as >> they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on speci= al >> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routi= ng >> ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see >> =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir >> >> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it >> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF La= st >> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through >> discussion >> or by updating the draft. >> >> Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt >> Reviewer: Michael Richardson >> Review Date: 2018-05-12 >> IETF LC End Date: unknown >> Intended Status: Standards Track >> >> Summary: >> >> This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation >> nits >> that should be considered prior to publication. >> >> Comments: >> >> It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and >> well-throught >> out way to extend BFD to multicast uses. >> > GIM>> Thank you for your kind consideration and approval of our work. > >> >> I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself = to >> any place that BFD is used. I would like to perhaps better >> understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS, >> PIM/IP-level multicast). >> > GIM>> BFD for Multipoint networks, also referred to as p2mp BFD, may be > used in single-hop and multi-hop scenarios. Already there are two > individual drafts, draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case and > draft-mirsky-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case, that demonstrate use of p2mp BFD in > single-hop scenario. Will note that the section 4.8 of the draft does > explain encapsulation of the multipoint BFD control packet over MPLS LSP > using IP/UDP. > >> >> I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies >> might >> be keeping me in the dark. >> >> I'm not generally happy with documents that say: >> "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]." >> >> because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two >> documents next to eachother. For an implementer, I'm not sure that ther= e >> is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the >> convenience of those writing it. >> > GIM>> The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing that > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: > > The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 of [RFC5880]. > > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section 14.3.3: > > The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 of [RFC5880]. > > >> I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the >> pseudo-code. >> As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, s= o >> this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the >> pseudo-code. (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists) >> > GIM>> I'll try but perhaps RFC Editor may help us here. > >> >> I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense= , >> it >> seemed well written and understandable. >> >> Major Issues: >> >> No major issues found. >> >> Minor Issues: >> >> No minor issues found. >> >> Nits: >> >> "the tail declares the path to having failed." <- s/having/have= / >> > GIM>> Accepted to the new working version of the draft. > >> >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> > --000000000000a1363b056c2eb8f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Now with corrected BFD WG list.

    On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Michael,
    thank you for your thorou= gh review, thoughtful and detailed comments and suggestions.
    Plea= se find my answers, notes in-line tagged GIM>>.

    <= div>Regards,
    Greg

    On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Michael = Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

    Hello,

    I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e
    Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a= s
    they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<= br> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing<= br> ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
    =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rt= g/trac/wiki/RtgDir

    Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last<= br> Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussi= on
    or by updating the draft.

    Document: draft-draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16.txt
    Reviewer: Michael Richardson
    Review Date: 2018-05-12
    IETF LC End Date: unknown
    Intended Status: Standards Track

    Summary:

    This document is basically ready for publication, but has presentation nits=
    that should be considered prior to publication.

    Comments:

    It seems like a well written document, with an intelligent and well-through= t
    out way to extend BFD to multicast uses.
    GIM>= ;> Thank you for your kind consideration and approval of our work.=C2=A0=

    I found the document a bit too abstract as it attempted to apply itself to<= br> any place that BFD is used.=C2=A0 I would like to perhaps better
    understand how it is used in some real multicast situations (MPLS,
    PIM/IP-level multicast).
    GIM>> BFD for Mu= ltipoint networks, also referred to as p2mp BFD, may be used in single-hop = and multi-hop scenarios. Already there are two individual drafts,=C2=A0 draft-mirsky-bfd-p2mp-vrrp-use-case=C2= =A0 =C2=A0and=C2=A0 draft-mirsky-pim-bfd-p2mp-use-case, that demon= strate use of p2mp BFD in single-hop scenario. Will note that the section 4= .8 of the draft does explain encapsulation of the multipoint BFD control pa= cket over MPLS LSP using IP/UDP.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    I believe that my lack of familiarity with some of those technologies might=
    be keeping me in the dark.

    I'm not generally happy with documents that say:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The following procedure replaces section 6.8.6 of [RFC5= 880]."

    because it's difficult to know what is going on without having the two<= br> documents next to eachother.=C2=A0 For an implementer, I'm not sure tha= t there
    is any savings by doing this either, it seems to be solely for the
    convenience of those writing it.
    GIM>> Th= e text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the replacement= of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing that make the rel= ationship more clear, e.g.:
    The following procedure replaces the entire secti= on 6.8.6 of [RFC5880].
    And the same can be applied to the first= sentence in section 14.3.3:
    The following procedure replaces the entire section 6= .8.7 of [RFC5880].

    I would prefer to have section 4.13 actually number the steps of the pseudo= -code.
    As far as I can see, all of the pseudo-code of 5880 is being replaced, so this is not as much as a patch, so I don't see why not to number the pseudo-code.=C2=A0 (Like BASIC if you want, or with numbered lists)
    GIM>> I'll try but perhaps RFC Editor may he= lp us here.=C2=A0

    I did not evaluate the pseudo-code to determine if it made logical sense, i= t
    seemed well written and understandable.

    Major Issues:

    No major issues found.

    Minor Issues:

    No minor issues found.

    Nits:

    "the tail declares the path to having failed."=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <- s/having/have/
    GIM>&= gt; Accepted to the new working version of the draft.
    =

    --
    Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
    =C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-





    --000000000000a1363b056c2eb8f0-- From nobody Mon May 14 15:58:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0029D12E8E6; Mon, 14 May 2018 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gOo8jiuhVful; Mon, 14 May 2018 15:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB2EC12DA0D; Mon, 14 May 2018 15:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD9820090; Mon, 14 May 2018 19:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F23F12B65; Mon, 14 May 2018 18:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE2E25F1; Mon, 14 May 2018 18:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Greg Mirsky cc: "\" , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, bfd@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <28935.1526166269@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 22:58:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg Mirsky wrote: > The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing = that > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 of [RFC5= 880]. > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section 14.3.3: txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 of [RFC5= 880]. That seems like good text. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBWvoUfYCLcPvd0N1lAQI/jgf/V4abMzej5iVAyY+jLn8ZN9/x6f7sxAFH GQ3jQXNvMyToh7ZG+XA/WB1qlZdEDKzsVfAzKOgmnPOWw/Ozj8jm1mr8fDf4gBrW N/BGO1M5UAs47rKitPQjr9UxQPcRg7wRlMteQdfkSHa4DhYY421COKjwG0F7WfzP oz/mBLUaUi6k+btQ5UIEsXALDiu1JDn3YSerUa7iUQil1epH6wUO9DZTjcWi8RuL N4jqGgqZOcSxcEQ7kDchhVB7q90PD0wcdrtBkeYgkKOHkjnD+z8b2kRwQvWSVSG/ tI8hcbxcLWK1sE/9geY32hDh4tdbGoDIb30RLrY8numwC5YfSni5Ew== =aMGR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon May 14 16:09:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9F112E957; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBhdl25mzsKi; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4141612E8EF; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id q2-v6so20442224lfc.12; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=b69JAeC3xOhi69Sk1Qwan5auFKKzHI/6dBAPQkigQ+o=; b=b3aV53TMkSkKuOEouFHLCiYUPZDaVc19aTHBBDI8vz2ZNCeff+1cb+AtqXuYDnYuOU YWvdKVJlYv1fIBeMQ6sSeUvleaHFcJ3Von5aWKJvZiGlzFsT5hEaIDvLgshHnLMlagGx vccnXiuFH0cnYujff5wubsNA7KuE1XOChTgwGQ3lnB//izDNH+rvK6jJy02SXTWuvl1K sdcgSm5aNvgG1d9NnhE/aTbhwfuv7UMCgTyNaO8iMLKAVtOXLrI3wnquHnlZW+gNkMOF 9La15qwg3+ZMgIHyUpWPwezcLhgea8Tty4FytchKVIqXHeLCrJtFetg3JncmcCasBlRn lPpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b69JAeC3xOhi69Sk1Qwan5auFKKzHI/6dBAPQkigQ+o=; b=R97rtfU7zlBD8J0ZpZUQAL2FW8i8MlxLdVKBxxUmg6yJ42bcesu0shQwlreTQ5wkJL v+pGJ7CSoUBa0lR0lAttUbfYvKN+w2jUkQ7ymjPsbB5XB5hko2UBilLskbrcIUOnGBWB aczchChFqjDNsf2GPyHVKHE2ek4NugIbC7blgeIPHqaEyuBZyGHci7Lmvb009wsoQ1Hp SgqHTiDGp0DRyI2JgS3e5anQF6TxHzAWrc4cb06mNCgwwOkc7ANEx1nT9eAB0+RKCf5d BTjuXE6D2NWayuEaKoqE+tTPgtzF2IfwCHbfxmc0wTo4zZTIoW2CcQ601r0F5kCXjQlN JaTA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwd/RJdyLK3xKFm3aV4zylIvK8NNApxGzxAu1meW7PtZLwmietPf WxyDCXvouWlGQ64WQ1h0rdSPrfH9FL/HhLRMWrQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqiOzVtU9Wk0fF5UJWhKY1zQ5IgoaBqwIqClgwXOH17PEAOH5M7c2FLyApQBkOpvCnrsPAT4u8oBd4wJE/0td8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:87d8:: with SMTP id v24-v6mr5502005ljj.69.1526339379441; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.133.13 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <24738.1526338685@localhost> References: <9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <28935.1526166269@localhost> <24738.1526338685@localhost> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 16:09:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "" , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084b5b5056c3294eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 23:09:44 -0000 --00000000000084b5b5056c3294eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Michael, thank you for the most expedient response. Both updates are in the new working version. Regards, Greg On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Greg Mirsky wrote: > > The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the > > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would stressing > that > > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: > > txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 of > [RFC5880]. > > > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section 14.3.3: > > txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 of > [RFC5880]. > > That seems like good text. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > --00000000000084b5b5056c3294eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Michael,
    thank you for the most expedient response.= Both updates are in the new working version.

    Rega= rds,
    Greg

    On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr= +ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
    =
    Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.= com> wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13= .1 is the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Wou= ld stressing that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > make the relationship more clear, e.g.:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txt> The following procedure replaces the entire se= ction 6.8.6 of [RFC5880].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in sec= tion 14.3.3:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txt> The following procedure replaces the entire se= ction 6.8.7 of [RFC5880].

    That seems like good text.

    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2= =A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [


    --00000000000084b5b5056c3294eb-- From nobody Mon May 14 19:58:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5912E127909; Mon, 14 May 2018 19:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wCCCBpbFfZ8m; Mon, 14 May 2018 19:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 662F6127863; Mon, 14 May 2018 19:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9035C58C4F8; Tue, 15 May 2018 04:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 752DE440218; Tue, 15 May 2018 04:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 04:58:07 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "jmh.direct" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 02:58:18 -0000 On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 08:49:56AM -0400, jmh.direct wrote: > I think the I understand what you describe. > As far as I can tell, the ACP DOES NOT AND SHOYLD NOT MANDATE > the address assignment mechanism. But it is the address assignment > mechanism that drives the address allocation. But that exactly is the conclusion of the multi-year ACP work in ANIMA WG. The ACP of an unconfigured, but only certificate enrolled device needs to be able to bring up routing and addressing for the ACP autonomically, aka: without any other dependencies. This ACP draft as it stands only depends on BRSKI and some unmodified CA to be implemented and deployed. There is no NOC with any address management functions required. At minimum, addressing is solely done from th registrar, and you can have many registrars in a network and there is no chance for inconsistent address configuration. Please propose any other solution that you are thinking of in enough detail to discuss it, and i think we can show it has more, and often future/undefined problems to be resolved. > I would expect to find the address structure for autonomic addressed > in the same document as the mechanisms for autonomic address assignment. The ANIMA autonomic address asignment draft is relying on the ACP to be operational end-to-end to signal amongst its components via ACP GRASP the address/prefix assignments. It can by definition not be used to bring up routing and addressing of the ACP itself. It likely also required more centralized functionality. For what it tries to do, it is elegant, flexible and all that because it does not have to bother about bootstrap addressing and routing for itself as the ACP has to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping#/media/File:Zentralbibliothek_Solothurn_-_M%C3%BCnchhausen_zieht_sich_am_Zopf_aus_dem_Sumpf_-_a0400.tif BRSKI+ACP are doing what poor Muenchhausen is trying to do in what i think is a quite lightweight, very secure, scalable and for the job at hand (ugly) quite elegant way. > That is, why the routing scheme seemed confusing after the address allocation scheme. If you can be more explicit about what you think is confusing, i am happy to make any confusing text better. Note that routing protocol/profile and addressing scheme are all subject to future enhancements easily. But in the design of anima, we would like to have operator defined address policy to be part of intent, and that would not only requir a lot more future work, it would also make addressing assigned this way less reliable and would not allow to use addresses managed dyanmically be used by components that are used to implement the Intent infrastructure or any future ANI components (ASA etc.) that intent or address management depends on. Cheers Toerless > Yours,Joel > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: Toerless Eckert Date: 5/14/18 05:04 (GMT-05:00) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of > draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 > a) Will try to do better explanation of identifier nature of addresses in > next commit. > > b) what do we loose if get rid of the choices. I kinda thought i had answered > this already, but i really don't know where your concern starts... > > 1. We use ULA because we want to be able to bring up ACP networks without > requiring a registry allocation of a prefix, and ULA is the correct > private address space. And deriving ULA Global ID from hash of domain > name is nice. > > Sounds as if you agree with this. > > 2. We want to be able to allocate addresses to ACP/ANI devices > without any additional configuration from multiple independently > running registrars. Thats why the global unique ID of the registrar > is part of the address in both zone and Vlong format. > > Thats very fundamental to the ease of deployment of ACP/ANI nodes > (i say ANI, because its really ACP+BRSKI required here to get a simple standard > solution to create the cert, otherwise youre down to a vendor specific > cert provisioning solution extended with ACP info support) > > i hope this is uncontentuous > > 3. a) We wanted to be able to support in the future "zone" = area/region-level > route aggregation, thats why the zone scheme reserves those 13 bits. > > b) We also know use cases where nodes need more than 2 addresses, > thats why we have have the 8/16 bit Vlong option. > > c) We can not do everything autonomically (== addresses assigned from registrars), > so we also reserve address space for traditional config (manual address space). > > Are these three sub-spaces zone,manual,vlong contenuous ? > > As mentioned in prior email if i wanted to avoid those ca. 3 bits of > format indication, i would need to indicate the semantic of addresses > somehow differently to the nodes, e.g: via some extension to the ACP format, > but i would want to be able to signal the same information. > > So for example: because we have a standardized addressing scheme, > a node that allows configuration of "ACP connect" can make sure > that the address configured on an ACP cnnect interface can never be a ULA > address that would conflict with an automatic ACP address assignment done > by a registrar. So i protect my autonomic address space from misconfiguration. > Which is IMHO extremely important. So this is the key justification for > the manual address space allocation. > > Distinguishing between zone and Vlong address spaces is necessary because > we just can't fit zone, registrar-ID and node-number and 16 bit of per-node bits > into a single addressing scheme. > > E voila, three (IMHO: simpler) simple options. Likely networks will use all three. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:38:35PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Trimmed. > > Top posting for clarity. Mostly, agreement. > > > > On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms is > > confusing. But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text > > elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. > > > > I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more > > carefully. Thank you for moving the Z bit. > > I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we still > > need it. > > Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. > > > > I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA. And > > because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in > > defining what ULA prefix is used. > > > > Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format > > definition. I suspect I am missing something very basic. Why not leave > > this to the deploying operator? It is not like it can be autonomic, since > > something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers > > within some of the formats to use. I could imagine something that said "in > > the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to one > > specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. > > But it would be a simple scheme. > > > > > > On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > Diff: > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > > > > > Latest version: > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > > > > .... > > > Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: > > > > > > - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime > > > of the device. > > > - It does not change when i move the node to a different location > > > and re-connect the device. > > > - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) > > > and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, > > > but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). > > > > > > Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written > > > above. > > > > (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) > > > > Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the > > > > mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses. You are > > > > trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address > > > > structures with specific encodings for each one. With only a few encodings > > > > available. This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that > > > > hurt. > > > > > > The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length > > > handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits > > > (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments > > > as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. > > > > > > We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you > > > want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex > > > address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. > > > > > > see below for more > > > > > > > > The difference in interpretation > > > > > > is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64. If these are the > > > > > > same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them. They > > > > > > should be explained as a single schema. Which would presumably result in > > > > > > the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field. If they are two > > > > > > different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema > > > > > > identifier (making it 3 bits). > > > > > > > > > > We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because > > > > > that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce > > > > > virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. > > > > > > > > > > So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out > > > > > of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. > > > > > > > > > > Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO > > > > > textually correct to have them in different subsections. > > > > > > > > > > Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, > > > > > the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and > > > > > best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space > > > > > utilization and not beauty of encoding. > > > > > > > > > > Having at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of 2 * /64 > > > > > routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. > > > > > > > > > > If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, > > > > > i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route > > > > > optimization possible through the placement of Z. > > > > > > > > Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, > > > > trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. > > > > > > > > While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z > > > > bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the > > > > field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. > > > > > > > > I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the > > > > front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated > > > > by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. > > > > > > Done. (see diff). > > > > > > > > I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; > > > > > nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you > > > > > have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. > > > > > > > > > > To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. > > > > > > > > I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it > > > > work. I pity the code reviewer. > > > > > > I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing > > > and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system > > > complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the > > > multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. > > > I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system > > > complexity, especially registrars. > > > > > > > > > In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed > > > > > > usage is for more V values > > > > > > > > > > Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the > > > > > needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it > > > > > if it actually is still there. > > > > > > > > The text reads "further values use via definition in future work." In the > > > > zone-id scheme, it is one bit. For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. > > > > > > Thanks, changed sentence to: > > > > > > V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. > > > > > > The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples > > > when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: > > > > > > existing text: > > > ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... > > > > > > > > > the document goes on to introduce the > > > > > > complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how > > > > > > long the node-number is. Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to > > > > > > explain why you need both sizes. It seems like needless complexity that > > > > > > begs for mistakes in implementation. > > > > > > > > > > I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and > > > > > some of them would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, > > > > > therefore these two choices. > > > > > > > > See my comments above. Trying to encode specific use cases into the address > > > > format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. > > > > > > > > What would break if you didn't define any of this? > > > > > > One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the > > > address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the > > > address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in > > > the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type > > > of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and > > > address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) > > > IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the > > > functionality, which i think is all required. > > > > > > I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in > > > the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the > > > resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place > > > that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have > > > to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: > > > access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information > > > field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end > > > up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. > > > > > > I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would > > > be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot > > > more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, > > > especially to correctly support important options we may have > > > overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently > > > to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. > > > > > > > > Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem > > > > > of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require > > > > > a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent > > > > > than address space allocations would become a complex dependency > > > > > making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that > > > > > offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. > > > > > It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. > > > > > > > > Variation is needed. That was true of allocations in IP. encoding the > > > > variations proved a bad choice. > > > > > > Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is > > > what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 > > > did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 > > > multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. > > > > > > > > > In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the > > > > > > point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes. But it > > > > > > seems here that we will not do so ? > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 > > > > > (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, > > > > > but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be > > > > > appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important > > > > > to carve out addressing space to support this. > > > > The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot > > > > of trouble to enable in your addressing design. > > > > > > Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not > > > think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms > > > how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO > > > better done in a followup document because all the cases where we > > > did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular > > > deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. > > > Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve > > > bits for them through the zone field. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > *** Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning > > > > > > of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima". I can > > > > > > understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable. However, > > > > > > that really should be a different state from "admin down". Operators already > > > > > > understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any > > > > > > traffic. Changing that is fairly drastic. "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" > > > > > > would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down". The > > > > > > justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from > > > > > > doing what he intends. that seems backwards. (Note that the distinction > > > > > > between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well > > > > > > understood.) > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. > > > > > > > > If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. > > > > Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a > > > > small thing. Changing the permissions models for widely understood > > > > configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. > > > > > > > > My suggestion is that you remove all of this material. If you feel it is > > > > important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration > > > > model for robust ANIMA. While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly > > > > have the right to cause the discussion. > > > > > > > > Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of > > > > admin down and physical down. Most management models I know of treat these > > > > as quite distinct. SO that is at best a red herring. > > > > > > Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the > > > interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and > > > as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually > > > does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down > > > phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down > > > one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the > > > other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is > > > based on. > > > > > > Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? > > > > > > I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant > > > informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting > > > interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity > > > for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. > > > > > > If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this > > > could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, > > > but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would > > > be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with > > > this. > > > > > > I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was > > > specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand > > > how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller > > > operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) > > > as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. > > > > > > > (text retained for context of further discussions.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and > > > > > achieve its goals is what we have written. > > > > > > > > > > The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of > > > > > the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. > > > > > > > > > > We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. > > > > > Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. > > > > > > > > > > The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" > > > > > into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that > > > > > affects the physcial infra. > > > > > > > > > > If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, > > > > > the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: > > > > > only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, > > > > > e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. > > > > > And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or > > > > > intentional misuse. > > > > > > > > > > Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator > > > > > of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN > > > > > and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw > > > > > up that network you're meant to manage. > > > > > > > > > > And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their > > > > > interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary > > > > > to reach the VM. > > > > > > > > > > In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management > > > > > channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking > > > > > your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > > > > > > > > > > > *** The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable > > > > > > functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity > > > > > would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled > > > > > the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator > > > > > did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. > > > > > > > > The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration > > > > change. > > > > > > We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote > > > equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating > > > an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to > > > impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore > > > reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah > > > forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate > > > or differently is definitely wide open. > > > > > > I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are > > > a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define > > > different access levels to configuration so far, at least not > > > between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. > > > > > > As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a > > > good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means > > > already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least > > > in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled > > > the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course > > > complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this > > > evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. > > > > > > So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to > > > have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead > > > of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. > > > It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. > > > > > > > > > Editorial / Nits: > > > > . > > > > > > In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits > > > > > > is mandated to be 0. Presumably, there is some reason for doing this. It > > > > > > would be nice to explain it. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an > > > > > explicit reference ? > > > > > > > > I should ahve removed this note. It was a side-effect of the presentation > > > > and ordering, not a problem on its own. Sorry. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon May 14 20:16:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E52127863; Mon, 14 May 2018 20:16:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_ABUSE_MALW=2.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y9-x9OjXtFZW; Mon, 14 May 2018 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A77312778D; Mon, 14 May 2018 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B469A09C7; Mon, 14 May 2018 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1526354160; bh=7WID3Q0xb14cwWhrd8WhYebrfaCV0Oo3knqVvMgm2Sc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nObegbt8ElFl+2mGyfF0biAXb4OeoKaOH1fY85XtysYBYdhSuvfoxfFy+QuSW6Z86 KTFZhigTUUMk7HaNIpSJmbbhIstV/ctFrL0hzG6lm61gWVBnS4OXbpdC9WoG0DNr1G d+j3F1Ztnsp/3y8jeCMZ/HzNrwR+8/BVBeemAP1A= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24E459A09BF; Mon, 14 May 2018 20:15:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org References: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <6c4f9527-1b96-9c14-ffe0-186a24eb9793@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 23:15:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 03:16:04 -0000 (Sorry about the excess caps. Did not intentd to shout.) From some off-line disucssions, I understand that the actual address allocation is tied to the registration process. The registration process is not described in this document. As far as I can tell, the ACP does not depend upon the address allocation strategy. The address allocation strategy does require the ACP. And it requires and is closely coupled to the registration process. If that is true, the address allocation seems to be better described with the registration process. Which I presume is in the BRSKI document. All I would put in here is the basic ULA allocation (hash based generation) mechanism. Yours, Joel On 5/14/18 10:58 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 08:49:56AM -0400, jmh.direct wrote: >> I think the I understand what you describe. >> As far as I can tell, the ACP DOES NOT AND SHOYLD NOT MANDATE >> the address assignment mechanism.  But it is the address assignment >> mechanism that drives the address allocation. > > But that exactly is the conclusion of the multi-year ACP work in ANIMA WG. > The ACP of an unconfigured, but only certificate enrolled device needs to > be able to bring up routing and addressing for the ACP autonomically, > aka: without any other dependencies. > > This ACP draft as it stands only depends on BRSKI and some unmodified CA > to be implemented and deployed. There is no NOC with any address management > functions required. At minimum, addressing is solely done from th registrar, > and you can have many registrars in a network and there is no chance > for inconsistent address configuration. > > Please propose any other solution that you are thinking of in enough detail > to discuss it, and i think we can show it has more, and often future/undefined > problems to be resolved. > >> I would expect to find the address structure for autonomic addressed >> in the same document as the mechanisms for autonomic address assignment. > > The ANIMA autonomic address asignment draft is relying on the ACP to be > operational end-to-end to signal amongst its components via ACP GRASP the > address/prefix assignments. It can by definition not be used to bring up > routing and addressing of the ACP itself. It likely also required more > centralized functionality. For what it tries to do, it is elegant, flexible and > all that because it does not have to bother about bootstrap addressing and > routing for itself as the ACP has to do. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping#/media/File:Zentralbibliothek_Solothurn_-_M%C3%BCnchhausen_zieht_sich_am_Zopf_aus_dem_Sumpf_-_a0400.tif > > BRSKI+ACP are doing what poor Muenchhausen is trying to do in > what i think is a quite lightweight, very secure, scalable and > for the job at hand (ugly) quite elegant way. > >> That is, why the routing scheme seemed confusing after the address allocation scheme. > > If you can be more explicit about what you think is confusing, i am > happy to make any confusing text better. > > Note that routing protocol/profile and addressing scheme are all subject > to future enhancements easily. But in the design of anima, we would like > to have operator defined address policy to be part of intent, and > that would not only requir a lot more future work, it would also make > addressing assigned this way less reliable and would not allow to use > addresses managed dyanmically be used by components that are used to implement > the Intent infrastructure or any future ANI components (ASA etc.) that > intent or address management depends on. > > Cheers > Toerless > >> Yours,Joel >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> -------- Original message --------From: Toerless Eckert Date: 5/14/18 05:04 (GMT-05:00) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of >>   draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 >> a) Will try to do better explanation of identifier nature of addresses in >>    next commit. >> >> b) what do we loose if get rid of the choices. I kinda thought i had answered >>    this already, but i really don't know where your concern starts... >> >>    1. We use ULA because we want to be able to bring up ACP networks without >>       requiring a registry allocation of a prefix, and ULA is the correct >>       private address space. And deriving ULA Global ID from hash of domain >>       name is nice. >> >>       Sounds as if you agree with this. >> >>    2. We want to be able to allocate addresses to ACP/ANI devices >>       without any additional configuration from multiple independently >>       running registrars. Thats why the global unique ID of the registrar >>       is part of the address in both zone and Vlong format. >> >>       Thats very fundamental to the ease of deployment of ACP/ANI nodes >>       (i say ANI, because its really ACP+BRSKI required here to get a simple standard >>        solution to create the cert, otherwise youre down to a vendor specific >>        cert provisioning solution extended with ACP info support) >> >>       i hope this is uncontentuous >> >>    3. a) We wanted to be able to support in the future "zone" = area/region-level >>       route aggregation, thats why the zone scheme reserves those 13 bits. >> >>       b) We also know use cases where nodes need more than 2 addresses, >>       thats why we have have the 8/16 bit Vlong option. >> >>       c) We can not do everything autonomically (== addresses assigned from registrars), >>       so we also reserve address space for traditional config (manual address space). >> >>       Are these three sub-spaces zone,manual,vlong contenuous ? >> >>    As mentioned in prior email if i wanted to avoid those ca. 3 bits of >>    format indication, i would need to indicate the semantic of addresses >>    somehow differently to the nodes, e.g: via some extension to the ACP format, >>    but i would want to be able to signal the same information. >> >>    So for example: because we have a standardized addressing scheme, >>    a node that allows configuration of "ACP connect" can make sure >>    that the address configured on an ACP cnnect interface can never be a ULA >>    address that would conflict with an automatic ACP address assignment done >>    by a registrar. So i protect my autonomic address space from misconfiguration. >>    Which is IMHO extremely important. So this is the key justification for >>    the manual address space allocation. >> >>    Distinguishing between zone and Vlong address spaces is necessary because >>    we just can't fit zone, registrar-ID and node-number and 16 bit of per-node bits >>    into a single addressing scheme. >> >>    E voila, three (IMHO: simpler) simple options. Likely networks will use all three. >> >> Cheers >>     Toerless >> >> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:38:35PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> Trimmed. >>> Top posting for clarity.  Mostly, agreement. >>> >>> On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms is >>> confusing.  But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text >>> elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. >>> >>> I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more >>> carefully.  Thank you for moving the Z bit. >>> I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we still >>> need it. >>> Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. >>> >>> I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA.  And >>> because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in >>> defining what ULA prefix is used. >>> >>> Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format >>> definition.  I suspect I am missing something very basic.  Why not leave >>> this to the deploying operator?  It is not like it can be autonomic, since >>> something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers >>> within some of the formats to use.  I could imagine something that said "in >>> the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to one >>> specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. >>> But it would be a simple scheme. >>> >>> >>> On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>> >>>> Diff: >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt >>>> >>>> Latest version: >>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt >>>> >>> .... >>>> Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: >>>> >>>> - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the lifetime >>>>     of the device. >>>> - It does not change when i move the node to a different location >>>>     and re-connect the device. >>>> - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the private key) >>>>     and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authenticate it, >>>>     but the private key may change over time, for example when renewing the certificate). >>>> >>>> Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: like written >>>> above. >>> >>> (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) >>>>> Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like the >>>>> mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses.  You are >>>>> trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address >>>>> structures with specific encodings for each one.  With only a few encodings >>>>> available.  This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in ways that >>>>> hurt. >>>> >>>> The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed prefix-length >>>> handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16 bits >>>> (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segments >>>> as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. >>>> >>>> We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made when you >>>> want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have complex >>>> address registry or management system in the backend but simple registrars. >>>> >>>> see below for more >>>> >>>>>>          The difference in interpretation >>>>>>>        is actually provided by the last bit in the upper 64.  If these are the >>>>>>>        same schema, then it should not need a bit to differentiate them.  They >>>>>>>        should be explained as a single schema.  Which would presumably result in >>>>>>>        the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet field.   If they are two >>>>>>>        different schemas, then move the differentiation to part of the schema >>>>>>>        identifier (making it 3 bits). >>>>>> >>>>>> We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" code because >>>>>> that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would reduce >>>>>> virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carved out >>>>>> of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an encoding aspect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is IMHO >>>>>> textually correct to have them in different subsections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, >>>>>> the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and >>>>>> best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space >>>>>> utilization and not beauty of encoding. >>>>>> >>>>>> Having  at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of  2 * /64 >>>>>> routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, >>>>>> i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 route >>>>>> optimization possible through the placement of Z. >>>>> >>>>> Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite distinct, >>>>> trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. >>>>> >>>>> While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having the Z >>>>> bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether the >>>>> field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. >>>>> >>>>> I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at the >>>>> front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is indicated >>>>> by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. >>>> >>>> Done. (see diff). >>>> >>>>>> I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; >>>>>> nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If you >>>>>> have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. >>>>>> >>>>>> To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will make it >>>>> work.  I pity the code reviewer. >>>> >>>> I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing >>>> and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system >>>> complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the >>>> multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. >>>> I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall system >>>> complexity, especially registrars. >>>> >>>>>>>        In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is not even known what the needed >>>>>>>        usage is for more V values >>>>>> >>>>>> Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known what the >>>>>> needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it >>>>>> if it actually is still there. >>>>> >>>>> The text reads "further values use via definition in future work."  In the >>>>> zone-id scheme, it is one bit.  For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bits here. >>>> >>>> Thanks, changed sentence to: >>>> >>>> V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. >>>> >>>> The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples >>>> when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: >>>> >>>> existing text: >>>> ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge nodes ... >>>> >>>>>>>        the document goes on to introduce the >>>>>>>        complexity of classful nodes numbers, with the leading bit indicating how >>>>>>>        long the node-number is.  Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to >>>>>>>        explain why you need both sizes.  It seems like needless complexity that >>>>>>>        begs for mistakes in implementation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and >>>>>> some of them  would require a lot more addresses in the node than others, >>>>>> therefore these two choices. >>>>> >>>>> See my comments above.  Trying to encode specific use cases into the address >>>>> format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question. >>>>> >>>>> What would break if you didn't define any of this? >>>> >>>> One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the >>>> address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the >>>> address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information in >>>> the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type >>>> of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and >>>> address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) >>>> IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the >>>> functionality, which i think is all required. >>>> >>>> I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in >>>> the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the >>>> resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place >>>> that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have >>>> to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: >>>> access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP information >>>> field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end >>>> up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. >>>> >>>> I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would >>>> be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot >>>> more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, >>>> especially to correctly support important options we may have >>>> overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differently >>>> to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. >>>> >>>>>> Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem >>>>>> of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require >>>>>> a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intelligent >>>>>> than address space allocations would become a complex dependency >>>>>> making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that >>>>>> offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. >>>>>> It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what sticks. >>>>> >>>>> Variation is needed.  That was true of allocations in IP.  encoding the >>>>> variations proved a bad choice. >>>> >>>> Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding which is >>>> what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in IPv6 >>>> did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 >>>> multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. >>>> >>>>>>>        In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix lengths, I thought that the >>>>>>>        point of zone addressing was to allow the use of /64 prefixes.  But it >>>>>>>        seems here that we will not do so ? >>>>>> >>>>>> As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setup for /64 >>>>>> (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, >>>>>> but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be >>>>>> appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important >>>>>> to carve out addressing space to support this. >>>>> The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went to a lot >>>>> of trouble to enable in your addressing design. >>>> >>>> Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not >>>> think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms >>>> how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO >>>> better done in a followup document because all the cases where we >>>> did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular >>>> deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. >>>> Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve >>>> bits for them through the zone field. >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>>>> ***    Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices should change the meaning >>>>>>> of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima".    I can >>>>>>> understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable.  However, >>>>>>> that really should be a different state from "admin down".  Operators already >>>>>>> understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be used for any >>>>>>> traffic.  Changing that is fairly drastic.  "admin limited" or "admin ACP-Only" >>>>>>> would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down".  The >>>>>>> justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operator from >>>>>>> doing what he intends.  that seems backwards.  (Note that the distinction >>>>>>> between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is already well >>>>>>> understood.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we can agree to disagree. >>>>> >>>>> If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document at all. >>>>> Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is NOT a >>>>> small thing.  Changing the permissions models for widely understood >>>>> configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. >>>>> >>>>> My suggestion is that you remove all of this material.  If you feel it is >>>>> important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configuration >>>>> model for robust ANIMA.  While I think the change is a mistake, you clearly >>>>> have the right to cause the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems VERY >>>>> wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalence of >>>>> admin down and physical down.  Most management models I know of treat these >>>>> as quite distinct.  SO that is at best a red herring. >>>> >>>> Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the >>>> interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and >>>> as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actually >>>> does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing down >>>> phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting down >>>> one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the >>>> other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction is >>>> based on. >>>> >>>> Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience ? >>>> >>>> I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant >>>> informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting >>>> interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity >>>> for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. >>>> >>>> If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this >>>> could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become standard, >>>> but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model would >>>> be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with >>>> this. >>>> >>>> I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the document, it was >>>> specifically asked for several times in the working group to understand >>>> how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller >>>> operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this document) >>>> as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. >>>> >>>>> (text retained for context of further discussions.) >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP and >>>>>> achieve its goals is what we have written. >>>>>> >>>>>> The historic equivalence of "down" = "admin down" = "physical down" is one of >>>>>> the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. >>>>>> >>>>>> We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) management. >>>>>> Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" >>>>>> into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that >>>>>> affects the physcial infra. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, >>>>>> the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g: >>>>>> only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations, >>>>>> e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. >>>>>> And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unintentional or >>>>>> intentional misuse. >>>>>> >>>>>> Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an operator >>>>>> of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring down the DCN >>>>>> and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only screw >>>>>> up that network you're meant to manage. >>>>>> >>>>>> And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their >>>>>> interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary >>>>>> to reach the VM. >>>>>> >>>>>> In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet management >>>>>> channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from making/breaking >>>>>> your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. >>>>>> >>>>>>> ***    The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse to disable >>>>>>> functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems flatly wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity >>>>>> would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled >>>>>> the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator >>>>>> did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. >>>>> >>>>> The security model change seems as problematic as the above configuration >>>>> change. >>>> >>>> We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing remote >>>> equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating >>>> an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to >>>> impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and therefore >>>> reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah >>>> forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate >>>> or differently is definitely wide open. >>>> >>>> I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are >>>> a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define >>>> different access levels to configuration so far, at least not >>>> between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. >>>> >>>> As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a >>>> good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means >>>> already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least >>>> in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled >>>> the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course >>>> complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least this >>>> evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing this. >>>> >>>> So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to >>>> have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC instead >>>> of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first step. >>>> It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. >>>> >>>>>>> Editorial / Nits: >>>>> . >>>>>>>        In the various formats in section 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits >>>>>>>        is mandated to be 0.  Presumably, there is some reason for doing this.  It >>>>>>>        would be nice to explain it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an >>>>>> explicit reference ? >>>>> >>>>> I should ahve removed this note.  It was a side-effect of the presentation >>>>> and ordering, not a problem on its own.  Sorry. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>>       Toerless >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> -- >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de > From nobody Tue May 15 08:40:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10F212DA43; Tue, 15 May 2018 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1526353102; bh=pA4Mxj0pSu3VkQcmz26CdXCx3TvwYg8Ok5XlpM7y32g=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: Cc; b=e700I7Tq7sZCNIgEkMJR58Ousw6/o2i/knkCyCcC9OdhhP6nuENWUSA0QlCKUvcNQ zZiosn7qWm8nSI7JJ7xknimkbd6NlDILnfcf0KlvM7jR4zAiieKelFimH5GyJmkFE1 33vC4VpqtQzyiAydbYaRGb7lI7+5ampAhfTNi8I8= X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 04:58:07 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: jmh.direct Message-ID: <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list CC: , , , Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org Sender: ietf X-MC-Unique: WMkoXXmkNeu-GAey_eF8Qg-1 X-MC-Unique: 0eLZ2WbWMjyEDAog00OR2w-7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 12:50:37 -0000 On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 08:49:56AM -0400, jmh.direct wrote: > I think the I understand what you describe. > As far as I can tell, the ACP DOES NOT AND SHOYLD NOT MANDATE > the address assignment mechanism.=A0 But it is the address assignment > mechanism that drives the address allocation. But that exactly is the conclusion of the multi-year ACP work in ANIMA WG. The ACP of an unconfigured, but only certificate enrolled device needs to be able to bring up routing and addressing for the ACP autonomically, aka: without any other dependencies. This ACP draft as it stands only depends on BRSKI and some unmodified CA to be implemented and deployed. There is no NOC with any address management functions required. At minimum, addressing is solely done from th registrar= , and you can have many registrars in a network and there is no chance for inconsistent address configuration. Please propose any other solution that you are thinking of in enough detail to discuss it, and i think we can show it has more, and often future/undefi= ned problems to be resolved.=20 > I would expect to find the address structure for autonomic addressed > in the same document as the mechanisms for autonomic address assignment. The ANIMA autonomic address asignment draft is relying on the ACP to be operational end-to-end to signal amongst its components via ACP GRASP the address/prefix assignments. It can by definition not be used to bring up=20 routing and addressing of the ACP itself. It likely also required more centralized functionality. For what it tries to do, it is elegant, flexible= and all that because it does not have to bother about bootstrap addressing and routing for itself as the ACP has to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping#/media/File:Zentralbibliothek_S= olothurn_-_M%C3%BCnchhausen_zieht_sich_am_Zopf_aus_dem_Sumpf_-_a0400.tif BRSKI+ACP are doing what poor Muenchhausen is trying to do in what i think is a quite lightweight, very secure, scalable and for the job at hand (ugly) quite elegant way. > That is, why the routing scheme seemed confusing after the address alloca= tion scheme. If you can be more explicit about what you think is confusing, i am happy to make any confusing text better. Note that routing protocol/profile and addressing scheme are all subject to future enhancements easily. But in the design of anima, we would like to have operator defined address policy to be part of intent, and that would not only requir a lot more future work, it would also make addressing assigned this way less reliable and would not allow to use addresses managed dyanmically be used by components that are used to implem= ent the Intent infrastructure or any future ANI components (ASA etc.) that intent or address management depends on. Cheers Toerless > Yours,Joel >=20 >=20 > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S=AE 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > -------- Original message --------From: Toerless Eckert D= ate: 5/14/18 05:04 (GMT-05:00) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.o= rg, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Rtgdir telechat revi= ew of > =A0 draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13=20 > a) Will try to do better explanation of identifier nature of addresses in > =A0=A0 next commit. >=20 > b) what do we loose if get rid of the choices. I kinda thought i had answ= ered > =A0=A0 this already, but i really don't know where your concern starts... >=20 > =A0=A0 1. We use ULA because we want to be able to bring up ACP networks = without > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 requiring a registry allocation of a prefix, and ULA is t= he correct > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 private address space. And deriving ULA Global ID from ha= sh of domain > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 name is nice. >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sounds as if you agree with this. > =A0=A0=A0=20 > =A0=A0 2. We want to be able to allocate addresses to ACP/ANI devices > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 without any additional configuration from multiple indepe= ndently > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 running registrars. Thats why the global unique ID of the= registrar > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 is part of the address in both zone and Vlong format. >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Thats very fundamental to the ease of deployment of ACP/A= NI nodes > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (i say ANI, because its really ACP+BRSKI required here to= get a simple standard > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 solution to create the cert, otherwise youre down to a= vendor specific > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 cert provisioning solution extended with ACP info supp= ort) >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 i hope this is uncontentuous > =A0=A0=20 > =A0=A0 3. a) We wanted to be able to support in the future "zone" =3D are= a/region-level > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 route aggregation, thats why the zone scheme reserves tho= se 13 bits. >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 b) We also know use cases where nodes need more than 2 ad= dresses, > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 thats why we have have the 8/16 bit Vlong option.=20 >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 c) We can not do everything autonomically (=3D=3D address= es assigned from registrars), > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 so we also reserve address space for traditional config (= manual address space). >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Are these three sub-spaces zone,manual,vlong contenuous ? > =A0=A0=20 > =A0=A0 As mentioned in prior email if i wanted to avoid those ca. 3 bits = of > =A0=A0 format indication, i would need to indicate the semantic of addres= ses > =A0=A0 somehow differently to the nodes, e.g: via some extension to the A= CP format, > =A0=A0 but i would want to be able to signal the same information. >=20 > =A0=A0 So for example: because we have a standardized addressing scheme, > =A0=A0 a node that allows configuration of "ACP connect" can make sure > =A0=A0 that the address configured on an ACP cnnect interface can never b= e a ULA > =A0=A0 address that would conflict with an automatic ACP address assignme= nt done > =A0=A0 by a registrar. So i protect my autonomic address space from misco= nfiguration. > =A0=A0 Which is IMHO extremely important. So this is the key justificatio= n for > =A0=A0 the manual address space allocation.=20 >=20 > =A0=A0 Distinguishing between zone and Vlong address spaces is necessary = because > =A0=A0 we just can't fit zone, registrar-ID and node-number and 16 bit of= per-node bits > =A0=A0 into a single addressing scheme. >=20 > =A0=A0 E voila, three (IMHO: simpler) simple options. Likely networks wil= l use all three. > =20 > Cheers > =A0=A0=A0 Toerless >=20 > On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:38:35PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Trimmed. > > Top posting for clarity.=A0 Mostly, agreement. > >=20 > > On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms i= s > > confusing.=A0 But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text > > elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. > > > > I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more > > carefully.=A0 Thank you for moving the Z bit. > > I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we = still > > need it. > > Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. > >=20 > > I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA.=A0 A= nd > > because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in > > defining what ULA prefix is used. > >=20 > > Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format > > definition.=A0 I suspect I am missing something very basic.=A0 Why not = leave > > this to the deploying operator?=A0 It is not like it can be autonomic, = since > > something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers > > within some of the formats to use.=A0 I could imagine something that sa= id "in > > the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to o= ne > > specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. > > But it would be a simple scheme. > > > >=20 > > On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > >=20 > > > Diff: > > >=20 > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://raw.g= ithubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb4= 5209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-ani= ma-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=3Dhttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/= anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/d= raft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-= plane-14.txt > > >=20 > > > Latest version: > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54= c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-p= lane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt > > >=20 > > .... > > > Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: > > >=20 > > > - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the = lifetime > > >=A0=A0=A0 of the device. > > > - It does not change when i move the node to a different location > > >=A0=A0=A0 and re-connect the device. > > > - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the= private key) > > >=A0=A0=A0 and used to identify the device (privat key is used to authe= nticate it, > > >=A0=A0=A0 but the private key may change over time, for example when r= enewing the certificate). > > >=20 > > > Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: li= ke written > > > above. > >=20 > > (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) > > > > Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much lik= e the > > > > mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses.=A0 Yo= u are > > > > trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific addres= s > > > > structures with specific encodings for each one.=A0 With only a few= encodings > > > > available.=A0 This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in wa= ys that > > > > hurt. > > >=20 > > > The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed pr= efix-length > > > handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/1= 6 bits > > > (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segmen= ts > > > as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. > > >=20 > > > We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made= when you > > > want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to hav= e complex > > > address registry or management system in the backend but simple regis= trars. > > >=20 > > > see below for more > > >=20 > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The difference in interpretation > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 is actually provided by the last bit in the u= pper 64.=A0 If these are the > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 same schema, then it should not need a bit to= differentiate them.=A0 They > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 should be explained as a single schema.=A0 Wh= ich would presumably result in > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 the Z bit being part of the zone / subnet fie= ld.=A0=A0 If they are two > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 different schemas, then move the differentiat= ion to part of the schema > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 identifier (making it 3 bits). > > > > >=20 > > > > > We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" = code because > > > > > that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that wo= uld reduce > > > > > virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. > > > > >=20 > > > > > So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was ca= rved out > > > > > of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an= encoding aspect. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it= is IMHO > > > > > textually correct to have them in different subsections. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefi= x, > > > > > the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and > > > > > best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address spa= ce > > > > > utilization and not beauty of encoding. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Having=A0 at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of=A0= 2 * /64 > > > > > routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. > > > > >=20 > > > > > If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, > > > > > i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /6= 3 route > > > > > optimization possible through the placement of Z. > > > >=20 > > > > Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite d= istinct, > > > > trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. > > > >=20 > > > > While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having = the Z > > > > bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whethe= r the > > > > field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. > > > >=20 > > > > I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and = at the > > > > front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is = indicated > > > > by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. > > >=20 > > > Done. (see diff). > > >=20 > > > > > I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; > > > > > nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If= you > > > > > have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. > > > > >=20 > > > > > To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. > > > >=20 > > > > I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that wil= l make it > > > > work.=A0 I pity the code reviewer. > > >=20 > > > I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing > > > and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall syste= m > > > complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the > > > multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. > > > I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall = system > > > complexity, especially registrars. > > >=20 > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In section 6.10.5, after stating that it is n= ot even known what the needed > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 usage is for more V values > > > > >=20 > > > > > Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known = what the > > > > > needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify i= t > > > > > if it actually is still there. > > > >=20 > > > > The text reads "further values use via definition in future work."= =A0 In the > > > > zone-id scheme, it is one bit.=A0 For some reason, it is 8 or 16 bi= ts here. > > >=20 > > > Thanks, changed sentence to: > > >=20 > > > V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as= in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. > > >=20 > > > The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples > > > when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: > > >=20 > > > existing text: > > > ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge = nodes ... > > >=20 > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 the document goes on to introduce the > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 complexity of classful nodes numbers, with th= e leading bit indicating how > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 long the node-number is.=A0 Yes, the rest of = the text in that bullet tries to > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 explain why you need both sizes.=A0 It seems = like needless complexity that > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 begs for mistakes in implementation. > > > > >=20 > > > > > I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, = and > > > > > some of them=A0 would require a lot more addresses in the node th= an others, > > > > > therefore these two choices. > > > >=20 > > > > See my comments above.=A0 Trying to encode specific use cases into = the address > > > > format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult questi= on. > > > >=20 > > > > What would break if you didn't define any of this? > > >=20 > > > One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the > > > address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the > > > address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information = in > > > the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type > > > of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and > > > address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme= ) > > > IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the > > > functionality, which i think is all required. > > >=20 > > > I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in > > > the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the > > > resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place > > > that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have > > > to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: > > > access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP informati= on > > > field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might en= d > > > up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. > > >=20 > > > I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would > > > be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot > > > more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, > > > especially to correctly support important options we may have > > > overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have differen= tly > > > to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. > > >=20 > > > > > Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem > > > > > of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require > > > > > a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intel= ligent > > > > > than address space allocations would become a complex dependency > > > > > making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that > > > > > offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. > > > > > It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what st= icks. > > > >=20 > > > > Variation is needed.=A0 That was true of allocations in IP.=A0 enco= ding the > > > > variations proved a bad choice. > > >=20 > > > Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encodin= g which is > > > what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in= IPv6 > > > did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv= 6 > > > multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. > > >=20 > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In section 6.11.1.11 in describing the prefix= lengths, I thought that the > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 point of zone addressing was to allow the use= of /64 prefixes.=A0 But it > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 seems here that we will not do so ? > > > > >=20 > > > > > As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing s= etup for /64 > > > > > (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple optio= ns, > > > > > but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be > > > > > appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important > > > > > to carve out addressing space to support this. > > > > The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went= to a lot > > > > of trouble to enable in your addressing design. > > >=20 > > > Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not > > > think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms > > > how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO > > > better done in a followup document because all the cases where we > > > did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular > > > deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs= . > > > Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve > > > bits for them through the zone field. > > >=20 > > > > ... > > > > > > ***=A0=A0=A0 Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices shoul= d change the meaning > > > > > > of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima= ".=A0=A0=A0 I can > > > > > > understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desira= ble.=A0 However, > > > > > > that really should be a different state from "admin down".=A0 O= perators already > > > > > > understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not= be used for any > > > > > > traffic.=A0 Changing that is fairly drastic.=A0 "admin limited"= or "admin ACP-Only" > > > > > > would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down= ".=A0 The > > > > > > justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an op= erator from > > > > > > doing what he intends.=A0 that seems backwards.=A0 (Note that t= he distinction > > > > > > between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, = is already well > > > > > > understood.) > > > > >=20 > > > > > Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something w= e can agree to disagree. > > > >=20 > > > > If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this documen= t at all. > > > > Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors = is NOT a > > > > small thing.=A0 Changing the permissions models for widely understo= od > > > > configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. > > > >=20 > > > > My suggestion is that you remove all of this material.=A0 If you fe= el it is > > > > important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configu= ration > > > > model for robust ANIMA.=A0 While I think the change is a mistake, y= ou clearly > > > > have the right to cause the discussion. > > > >=20 > > > > Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document see= ms VERY > > > > wrong. > > > >=20 > > > > Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equival= ence of > > > > admin down and physical down.=A0 Most management models I know of t= reat these > > > > as quite distinct.=A0 SO that is at best a red herring. > > >=20 > > > Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the > > > interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down an= d > > > as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actual= ly > > > does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing = down > > > phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting = down > > > one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on th= e > > > other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction = is > > > based on. > > >=20 > > > Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience= ? > > >=20 > > > I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant > > > informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting > > > interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity > > > for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. > > >=20 > > > If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this > > > could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can becom= e standard, > > > but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model wo= uld > > > be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with > > > this. > > >=20 > > > I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the docu= ment, it was > > > specifically asked for several times in the working group to understa= nd > > > how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller > > > operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this docum= ent) > > > as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. > > >=20 > > > > (text retained for context of further discussions.) > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the A= CP and > > > > > achieve its goals is what we have written. > > > > >=20 > > > > > The historic equivalence of "down" =3D "admin down" =3D "physical= down" is one of > > > > > the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks= . > > > > >=20 > > > > > We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) m= anagement. > > > > > Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. > > > > >=20 > > > > > The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "dow= n" > > > > > into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" t= hat > > > > > affects the physcial infra. > > > > >=20 > > > > > If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, > > > > > the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, = e.g: > > > > > only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operati= ons, > > > > > e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. > > > > > And then protect those dangerous commands even further against un= intentional or > > > > > intentional misuse. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As a= n operator > > > > > of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to br= ing down the DCN > > > > > and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only = screw > > > > > up that network you're meant to manage. > > > > >=20 > > > > > And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on thei= r > > > > > interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary > > > > > to reach the VM. > > > > >=20 > > > > > In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet ma= nagement > > > > > channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from ma= king/breaking > > > > > your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. > > > > >=20 > > > > > > ***=A0=A0=A0 The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should refuse= to disable > > > > > > functionality when an authorized administrator directs such see= ms flatly wrong. > > > > >=20 > > > > > The authorization to break your own remote management connectivit= y > > > > > would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled > > > > > the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the opera= tor > > > > > did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. > > > >=20 > > > > The security model change seems as problematic as the above configu= ration > > > > change. > > >=20 > > > We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing re= mote > > > equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating > > > an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to > > > impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and= therefore > > > reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pa= h > > > forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate > > > or differently is definitely wide open. > > >=20 > > > I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are > > > a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define > > > different access levels to configuration so far, at least not > > > between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level= . > > >=20 > > > As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a > > > good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means > > > already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At leas= t > > > in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled > > > the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course > > > complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least t= his > > > evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing t= his. > > >=20 > > > So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing t= o > > > have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC inst= ead > > > of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first st= ep. > > > It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. > > >=20 > > > > > > Editorial / Nits: > > > > . > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In the various formats in section 6.10, the l= owest bit of the upper 64 bits > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 is mandated to be 0.=A0 Presumably, there is = some reason for doing this.=A0 It > > > > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 would be nice to explain it. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an > > > > > explicit reference ? > > > >=20 > > > > I should ahve removed this note.=A0 It was a side-effect of the pre= sentation > > > > and ordering, not a problem on its own.=A0 Sorry. > > >=20 > > > Cheers > > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Toerless > > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 > --=20 > --- > tte@cs.fau.de --=20 --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed May 16 07:21:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394DC127078 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_FAIL=0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=ietf.org header.b=o6BVN0ze; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=ietf.org header.b=cPhU11Wt; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=joelhalpern.com header.b=nObegbt8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YQlaFO3cIqK for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-152.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-152.mimecast.com [146.101.78.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD2D01270A0 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GLLDCSVPHYB01.gd.didata.local (185.3.28.51 [185.3.28.51]) (Using TLS) by eu-smtp-1.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-9-pSRqiSRTOnKVRpaPJqpo-g-2; Wed, 16 May 2018 15:21:02 +0100 Received: from Pickup by GLLDCSVPHYB01.gd.didata.local with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.319.2; Wed, 16 May 2018 02:03:50 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1526354184; bh=zN2plqlCH+U1sFWmrZZrt+/W5h0J1+dMszZOCqwI7eU=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: Cc; b=o6BVN0zetDCH031B+rhb6X2pFTGzMnZYZ9+k1RJkjg62/8hJKzykqqxuxxdVcFYir +4IVtvFyrsgjKHU+7VfKVAFwGZXgoVyG7L0Aqf8CjhgtT4QBrkh2Pn5aoE5Y1j3COk nPmoAIzMlD0KUNSsVT4Axqfh2RlAsPyytj8pBCcE= X-Mailbox-Line: From ietf-bounces@ietf.org Mon May 14 20:16:22 2018 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1526354169; bh=zN2plqlCH+U1sFWmrZZrt+/W5h0J1+dMszZOCqwI7eU=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: Cc; b=cPhU11WtV9Dri5MKRkyatJL5uJ2wWyotXJpyLlahtF086s2BIMiJW0D0K4+Vcwtrk ujrCCkhPopXbx6mlKBkBfqdxqR1EZcBkw5BZz8qELnbBM1RHjenmZjRAR3gFAFXstk 8PuxAvwYzNi8ra0n2rC3sHxNx2D6WPfo+9SwwlI8= X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1526354160; bh=7WID3Q0xb14cwWhrd8WhYebrfaCV0Oo3knqVvMgm2Sc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nObegbt8ElFl+2mGyfF0biAXb4OeoKaOH1fY85XtysYBYdhSuvfoxfFy+QuSW6Z86 KTFZhigTUUMk7HaNIpSJmbbhIstV/ctFrL0hzG6lm61gWVBnS4OXbpdC9WoG0DNr1G d+j3F1Ztnsp/3y8jeCMZ/HzNrwR+8/BVBeemAP1A= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net To: Toerless Eckert References: <20180514090425.o2yr33536jru53bu@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180514125003.60B4474D368@faui45.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <6c4f9527-1b96-9c14-ffe0-186a24eb9793@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 23:15:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180515025807.zormnu7fqq5rq3uj@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list CC: , , , Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org Sender: ietf X-MC-Unique: 0YCXMNlIM3usYiii_H7rKQ-1 X-MC-Unique: pSRqiSRTOnKVRpaPJqpo-g-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [Anima] Rtgdir telechat review of? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 14:21:17 -0000 (Sorry about the excess caps. Did not intentd to shout.) From some off-line disucssions, I understand that the actual address=20 allocation is tied to the registration process. The registration=20 process is not described in this document. As far as I can tell, the ACP does not depend upon the address=20 allocation strategy. The address allocation strategy does require the=20 ACP. And it requires and is closely coupled to the registration process. If that is true, the address allocation seems to be better described=20 with the registration process. Which I presume is in the BRSKI document. All I would put in here is the basic ULA allocation (hash based=20 generation) mechanism. Yours, Joel On 5/14/18 10:58 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 08:49:56AM -0400, jmh.direct wrote: >> I think the I understand what you describe. >> As far as I can tell, the ACP DOES NOT AND SHOYLD NOT MANDATE >> the address assignment mechanism.=C2=A0 But it is the address assignment >> mechanism that drives the address allocation. >=20 > But that exactly is the conclusion of the multi-year ACP work in ANIMA WG= . > The ACP of an unconfigured, but only certificate enrolled device needs to > be able to bring up routing and addressing for the ACP autonomically, > aka: without any other dependencies. >=20 > This ACP draft as it stands only depends on BRSKI and some unmodified CA > to be implemented and deployed. There is no NOC with any address manageme= nt > functions required. At minimum, addressing is solely done from th registr= ar, > and you can have many registrars in a network and there is no chance > for inconsistent address configuration. >=20 > Please propose any other solution that you are thinking of in enough deta= il > to discuss it, and i think we can show it has more, and often future/unde= fined > problems to be resolved. >=20 >> I would expect to find the address structure for autonomic addressed >> in the same document as the mechanisms for autonomic address assignment. >=20 > The ANIMA autonomic address asignment draft is relying on the ACP to be > operational end-to-end to signal amongst its components via ACP GRASP the > address/prefix assignments. It can by definition not be used to bring up > routing and addressing of the ACP itself. It likely also required more > centralized functionality. For what it tries to do, it is elegant, flexib= le and > all that because it does not have to bother about bootstrap addressing an= d > routing for itself as the ACP has to do. >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping#/media/File:Zentralbibliothek= _Solothurn_-_M%C3%BCnchhausen_zieht_sich_am_Zopf_aus_dem_Sumpf_-_a0400.tif >=20 > BRSKI+ACP are doing what poor Muenchhausen is trying to do in > what i think is a quite lightweight, very secure, scalable and > for the job at hand (ugly) quite elegant way. >=20 >> That is, why the routing scheme seemed confusing after the address alloc= ation scheme. >=20 > If you can be more explicit about what you think is confusing, i am > happy to make any confusing text better. >=20 > Note that routing protocol/profile and addressing scheme are all subject > to future enhancements easily. But in the design of anima, we would like > to have operator defined address policy to be part of intent, and > that would not only requir a lot more future work, it would also make > addressing assigned this way less reliable and would not allow to use > addresses managed dyanmically be used by components that are used to impl= ement > the Intent infrastructure or any future ANI components (ASA etc.) that > intent or address management depends on. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> Yours,Joel >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S=C2=AE 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> -------- Original message --------From: Toerless Eckert = Date: 5/14/18 05:04 (GMT-05:00) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane.all@ietf.= org, ietf@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Rtgdir telechat rev= iew of >> =C2=A0 draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-13 >> a) Will try to do better explanation of identifier nature of addresses i= n >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 next commit. >> >> b) what do we loose if get rid of the choices. I kinda thought i had ans= wered >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 this already, but i really don't know where your concern s= tarts... >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 1. We use ULA because we want to be able to bring up ACP n= etworks without >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 requiring a registry allocation of a pre= fix, and ULA is the correct >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 private address space. And deriving ULA = Global ID from hash of domain >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 name is nice. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sounds as if you agree with this. >> =20 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 2. We want to be able to allocate addresses to ACP/ANI dev= ices >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 without any additional configuration fro= m multiple independently >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 running registrars. Thats why the global= unique ID of the registrar >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is part of the address in both zone and = Vlong format. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thats very fundamental to the ease of de= ployment of ACP/ANI nodes >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (i say ANI, because its really ACP+BRSKI= required here to get a simple standard >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 solution to create the cert, other= wise youre down to a vendor specific >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 cert provisioning solution extende= d with ACP info support) >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 i hope this is uncontentuous >> =20 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 3. a) We wanted to be able to support in the future "zone"= =3D area/region-level >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 route aggregation, thats why the zone sc= heme reserves those 13 bits. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 b) We also know use cases where nodes ne= ed more than 2 addresses, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 thats why we have have the 8/16 bit Vlon= g option. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 c) We can not do everything autonomicall= y (=3D=3D addresses assigned from registrars), >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 so we also reserve address space for tra= ditional config (manual address space). >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are these three sub-spaces zone,manual,v= long contenuous ? >> =20 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 As mentioned in prior email if i wanted to avoid those ca.= 3 bits of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 format indication, i would need to indicate the semantic o= f addresses >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 somehow differently to the nodes, e.g: via some extension = to the ACP format, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 but i would want to be able to signal the same information= . >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 So for example: because we have a standardized addressing = scheme, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 a node that allows configuration of "ACP connect" can make= sure >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 that the address configured on an ACP cnnect interface can= never be a ULA >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 address that would conflict with an automatic ACP address = assignment done >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 by a registrar. So i protect my autonomic address space fr= om misconfiguration. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Which is IMHO extremely important. So this is the key just= ification for >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 the manual address space allocation. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Distinguishing between zone and Vlong address spaces is ne= cessary because >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 we just can't fit zone, registrar-ID and node-number and 1= 6 bit of per-node bits >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 into a single addressing scheme. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 E voila, three (IMHO: simpler) simple options. Likely netw= orks will use all three. >> =20 >> Cheers >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Toerless >> >> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:38:35PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> Trimmed. >>> Top posting for clarity.=C2=A0 Mostly, agreement. >>> >>> On the identifier vs locator, I think the way you are using the terms i= s >>> confusing.=C2=A0 But it is not worth continued argumentation.Some text >>> elaborating along the lines you provide (retained below) would help. >>> >>> I have tried reading the section on addressing inside the ACP more >>> carefully.=C2=A0 Thank you for moving the Z bit. >>> I have retained the earlier discussion on this topic below, in case we = still >>> need it. >>> Reading the section, I think that the problem is more basic. >>> >>> I agree that the document needs to define that we are using a ULA.=C2= =A0 And >>> because of the certificate behaviors, there is significant advantage in >>> defining what ULA prefix is used. >>> >>> Given that, I do not see what use there is in all the other format >>> definition.=C2=A0 I suspect I am missing something very basic.=C2=A0 Wh= y not leave >>> this to the deploying operator?=C2=A0 It is not like it can be autonomi= c, since >>> something has to tell the devices what format to use, and what numbers >>> within some of the formats to use.=C2=A0 I could imagine something that= said "in >>> the absence of configuration, construct device addresses according to o= ne >>> specific algorithm, so as to simplify bootstrap. >>> But it would be a simple scheme. >>> >>> >>> On 5/11/18 10:09 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>> >>>> Diff: >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://raw.gi= thubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/2ae8f47399ae0d0811cb45= 209186d01f9e0d3077/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anim= a-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt&url2=3Dhttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/a= nima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/dr= aft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-p= lane-14.txt >>>> >>>> Latest version: >>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/anima-wg/autonomic-control-plane/54c= 9c16f3444b1db13c7cb05744e543dfcdfb63b/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-pl= ane/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-14.txt >>>> >>> .... >>>> Here are the things that make the ACP address an identifier to me: >>>> >>>> - It is assigned once to the device and not meant to change over the l= ifetime >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the device. >>>> - It does not change when i move the node to a different location >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and re-connect the device. >>>> - It is the unique part of the ACP domain certificate (other than the = private key) >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and used to identify the device (privat key is use= d to authenticate it, >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but the private key may change over time, for exam= ple when renewing the certificate). >>>> >>>> Would be happy to elaborate this in the doc more explicitly, e.g.: lik= e written >>>> above. >>> >>> (Context: Addressing inside the ACP.) >>>>> Part of my reaction to this whole section is that it looks much like = the >>>>> mistake we made originally in defining classful IP addresses.=C2=A0 Y= ou are >>>>> trying to guess the correct use cases, and defining specific address >>>>> structures with specific encodings for each one.=C2=A0 With only a fe= w encodings >>>>> available.=C2=A0 This seems to be a recipe for being wrong later in w= ays that >>>>> hurt. >>>> >>>> The only equivalent to classfull addressing i see is for the fixed pre= fix-length >>>> handed out to each node, 1 bit (2 addresses) with zone addresses, 8/16= bits >>>> (256/64k address) for Vlong, but its NOT assignment to network segment= s >>>> as in IPv4 A/B/C but to nodes. >>>> >>>> We didn't introduce choices lightly. There are compromises to be made = when you >>>> want some lightweight address allocation scheme, not expecting to have= complex >>>> address registry or management system in the backend but simple regist= rars. >>>> >>>> see below for more >>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The difference in = interpretation >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is actually provided by the l= ast bit in the upper 64.=C2=A0 If these are the >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 same schema, then it should n= ot need a bit to differentiate them.=C2=A0 They >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should be explained as a sing= le schema.=C2=A0 Which would presumably result in >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the Z bit being part of the z= one / subnet field.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If they are two >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 different schemas, then move = the differentiation to part of the schema >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 identifier (making it 3 bits)= . >>>>>> >>>>>> We did not want to make Z part of the base schemas 6.10.2 "Type" cod= e because >>>>>> that would also make the Vlong scheme one bit shorter and that would= reduce >>>>>> virtualization space in Vlong by a factor of 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, yes, encoding wise, 6.10.4 manual sub addressing space was carve= d out >>>>>> of the 6.10.3 zone address space via the Z bit, but thats just an en= coding aspect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Functionally, 6.10.3/6.10.4 are quite different, and therefore it is= IMHO >>>>>> textually correct to have them in different subsections. >>>>>> >>>>>> Carving out bits like Z isn't ideal, but in between the ULA prefix, >>>>>> the 64 bit local part we must have for external interfaces and >>>>>> best utilization of bits, we tried to rather optimize address space >>>>>> utilization and not beauty of encoding. >>>>>> >>>>>> Having=C2=A0 at the end allows (as written) use of /63 instead of=C2= =A0 2 * /64 >>>>>> routes. I am not sure how important this would be in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you feel strongly about more beauty in encoding, >>>>>> i can move Z to the left and remove the notion of the possible /63 r= oute >>>>>> optimization possible through the placement of Z. >>>>> >>>>> Since the two different uses of the Z bit with type 00b are quite dis= tinct, >>>>> trying to enable aggregation seems counter-productive. >>>>> >>>>> While I hate to push on a point you describe as aesthetics, having th= e Z >>>>> bit, occuring after the Zone / subnet-ID field, but defining whether = the >>>>> field is a zone or a subnet, seems awkward for insufficient reason. >>>>> >>>>> I would recommend moving the Z bit up so it is after the type, and at= the >>>>> front of each of the two sections reiterate that this subscheme is in= dicated >>>>> by the Z bit being { 0 | 1 }. >>>> >>>> Done. (see diff). >>>> >>>>>> I very much hope there is no "interesting" implementation aspect; >>>>>> nothing in the current scheme that makes implemenation harder. If yo= u >>>>>> have an example that you fear, i would like to hear it. >>>>>> >>>>>> To me, we are just defining address space allocation schemes. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose likely implementations will use mask definitions that will = make it >>>>> work.=C2=A0 I pity the code reviewer. >>>> >>>> I have read the code and tested in the lab IPv6 embedded RP adressing >>>> and didn't feel pityfull about the job. But i weigh the overall system >>>> complexity. Embedded-RP simplified a lot of other parts of the >>>> multicast system at the cost of introducing an addressing scheme. >>>> I think similarily, the ACP addressing scheme simplifies the overall s= ystem >>>> complexity, especially registrars. >>>> >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In section 6.10.5, after stat= ing that it is not even known what the needed >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 usage is for more V values >>>>>> >>>>>> Which sentence are you referring to when you say "not even known wha= t the >>>>>> needed usage is" ? I can't find it, but i would like to rectify it >>>>>> if it actually is still there. >>>>> >>>>> The text reads "further values use via definition in future work."=C2= =A0 In the >>>>> zone-id scheme, it is one bit.=C2=A0 For some reason, it is 8 or 16 b= its here. >>>> >>>> Thanks, changed sentence to: >>>> >>>> V: Virtualization bit: Values 0 and 1 are assigned in the same way as = in the Zone-ID sub-scheme. >>>> >>>> The existing text, now directly after the list, explains examples >>>> when a device would likely need 256 or 64k addresses: >>>> >>>> existing text: >>>> ..."1" bit Node-Numbers are intended for ACP nodes that are ACP edge n= odes ... >>>> >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the document goes on to intro= duce the >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 complexity of classful nodes = numbers, with the leading bit indicating how >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 long the node-number is.=C2= =A0 Yes, the rest of the text in that bullet tries to >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 explain why you need both siz= es.=C2=A0 It seems like needless complexity that >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 begs for mistakes in implemen= tation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was taking the example use cases we brainstormed into account, and >>>>>> some of them=C2=A0 would require a lot more addresses in the node th= an others, >>>>>> therefore these two choices. >>>>> >>>>> See my comments above.=C2=A0 Trying to encode specific use cases into= the address >>>>> format seems a problematic answer to an admittedly difficult question= . >>>>> >>>>> What would break if you didn't define any of this? >>>> >>>> One could save the 2.5 bits (Type, Z) indicating the structure of the >>>> address inside the address by encoding the designated format of the >>>> address instead in an extension field of the ACP address information i= n >>>> the certificate. We would certainly still want to have the same type >>>> of addresses, e.g.: 2,256,64k local addresses, option for zones and >>>> address to assign to ACP connect interfaces (manual addressing scheme) >>>> IMHO. So, at best we could save the 2.5 bits if we wanted to keep the >>>> functionality, which i think is all required. >>>> >>>> I would be quite afraid of doing such a drastic change this late in >>>> the process because i think it will take a long time to foresee the >>>> resulting complexity introduced for registars and any other place >>>> that now can deduct the semantic from the address and would then have >>>> to access to what the certificate indicates in a different way (e.g.: >>>> access to the certificate). Note that the length of the ACP informatio= n >>>> field in the cert is also limited, so this type of extension might end >>>> up looking even uglier to be short *sigh*. >>>> >>>> I was always thinking that this type of more flexible option would >>>> be a good next-step, but not a safe first step. It would make a lot >>>> more sense after hearing implementation/deployment experiences, >>>> especially to correctly support important options we may have >>>> overlooked in the current schemes. Just redoing what we have different= ly >>>> to save 2.5 bits isn't worth it IMHO. >>>> >>>>>> Ultimately, we need to break through the chicken and egg problem >>>>>> of how to build more self-managing networks. These will require >>>>>> a different number of addresses inside nodes. Anything more intellig= ent >>>>>> than address space allocations would become a complex dependency >>>>>> making implementation/adoption even slower. I don't think that >>>>>> offering 2, 256, 64k addresses per node is too much flexibility. >>>>>> It IMHO necessary and sufficient to explore and we'll see what stick= s. >>>>> >>>>> Variation is needed.=C2=A0 That was true of allocations in IP.=C2=A0 = encoding the >>>>> variations proved a bad choice. >>>> >>>> Let me repeat that we are not doing any network/subnet prefix encoding= which is >>>> what IPv4 A/B/C was. And there are IMHO good examples how encoding in = IPv6 >>>> did save the day from complexity (at least all the stuff done for IPv6 >>>> multicast, ASM/SSM, zones, Embedded-RP) was highly useful. >>>> >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In section 6.11.1.11 in descr= ibing the prefix lengths, I thought that the >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 point of zone addressing was = to allow the use of /64 prefixes.=C2=A0 But it >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 seems here that we will not d= o so ? >>>>>> >>>>>> As mentioned above: This document does not describe the routing setu= p for /64 >>>>>> (or /63 with Z-bit) routing aggregation. There are multiple options, >>>>>> but we could not conclude on a single solution that we felt to be >>>>>> appropriate for this document. Instead it was only very important >>>>>> to carve out addressing space to support this. >>>>> The net effect seems to be to prohibt the very things that you went t= o a lot >>>>> of trouble to enable in your addressing design. >>>> >>>> Maybe i do not understand your comment correctly, but i do not >>>> think it is correct. We just have not defined recommended mechanisms >>>> how to set up routing to use /64 zone routes. That is something IMHO >>>> better done in a followup document because all the cases where we >>>> did see a need for znes where really very specific to particular >>>> deployment styles and would not be applicable to the mayority of ACPs. >>>> Nevertheless, we felt those cases where important enough to reserve >>>> bits for them through the zone field. >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>>>> ***=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Section 10.3.2 paragraph 2 says that devices = should change the meaning >>>>>>> of "admin down" to mean "down for everything except ACP / Anima".= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I can >>>>>>> understand why, in an autonomic network, such a state is desirable.= =C2=A0 However, >>>>>>> that really should be a different state from "admin down".=C2=A0 Op= erators already >>>>>>> understand "admin down" as meaning that this interface will not be = used for any >>>>>>> traffic.=C2=A0 Changing that is fairly drastic.=C2=A0 "admin limite= d" or "admin ACP-Only" >>>>>>> would seem much better than changing the meaning of "admin down".= =C2=A0 The >>>>>>> justification in the text seems to be a desire to prevent an operat= or from >>>>>>> doing what he intends.=C2=A0 that seems backwards.=C2=A0 (Note that= the distinction >>>>>>> between administrative state vs operational state, aka failed, is a= lready well >>>>>>> understood.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, this is in an informative section, so hopefully something we c= an agree to disagree. >>>>> >>>>> If this were truly informative, it would not belong in this document = at all. >>>>> Changing the behavior of widely understood configuration behaviors is= NOT a >>>>> small thing.=C2=A0 Changing the permissions models for widely underst= ood >>>>> configuration operations is also NOT a small thing. >>>>> >>>>> My suggestion is that you remove all of this material.=C2=A0 If you f= eel it is >>>>> important, write an I-D for standards track on evolving the configura= tion >>>>> model for robust ANIMA.=C2=A0 While I think the change is a mistake, = you clearly >>>>> have the right to cause the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Hiding the topic in an "informational" note in the ACP document seems= VERY >>>>> wrong. >>>>> >>>>> Also note that in your discussion below, you talk about the equivalen= ce of >>>>> admin down and physical down.=C2=A0 Most management models I know of = treat these >>>>> as quite distinct.=C2=A0 SO that is at best a red herring. >>>> >>>> Hmm. I really only CLI derived from Cisco IOS, and there the >>>> interface level "shutdown" command doubles IMHO both as admin down and >>>> as phy down, so i would contend that this is a red herring. It actuall= y >>>> does show up in diagnostic CLI as "admin down", but is also bringing d= own >>>> phy state. Therefore it is also used to diagnose phy, .e.g: shutting d= own >>>> one side of a supposed direct p2p link to verify the phy change on the >>>> other side. That practical experience is what the text and direction i= s >>>> based on. >>>> >>>> Whats an example where admin/phy down are separate in your experience = ? >>>> >>>> I don't know how you define "truly informative". I simply meant >>>> informational as compared to standards track wrt. to not impacting >>>> interoperability, but also as a precursor work to give opportunity >>>> for gaining more experience before attempting to go standard. >>>> >>>> If/when i find time i definitely would like to investigate how this >>>> could be formalized through a YANG model for ACP so that it can become= standard, >>>> but i definitely agree that especially this part of the YANG model wou= ld >>>> be highly difficult to get to before any experience is gained with >>>> this. >>>> >>>> I therefore would very much hesitate removing this text from the docum= ent, it was >>>> specifically asked for several times in the working group to understan= d >>>> how the promised reliability of the ACP against operator/contoller >>>> operation could be achieved. Having this in a first round (this docume= nt) >>>> as "informational" is IMHO a good and important thing. >>>> >>>>> (text retained for context of further discussions.) >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I strongly believe that the most easy way to operationalize the ACP = and >>>>>> achieve its goals is what we have written. >>>>>> >>>>>> The historic equivalence of "down" =3D "admin down" =3D "physical do= wn" is one of >>>>>> the the most fundamental problem of remote management in networks. >>>>>> >>>>>> We really need to start thinking of separate layers of (remote) mana= gement. >>>>>> Network services on one hand and physical infra on the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> The first thing to do this is to separate operations such as "down" >>>>>> into "admin down" that affects networks services and "phy down" that >>>>>> affects the physcial infra. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have existing commands like "shutdown" that today do both, >>>>>> the safe mapping is to let them do the safe thing in the future, e.g= : >>>>>> only "admin down", and introduce new commands for the phy operations= , >>>>>> e.g.: "phy shutdown" or the like. >>>>>> And then protect those dangerous commands even further against unint= entional or >>>>>> intentional misuse. >>>>>> >>>>>> Think of ACP/ANI also as a seamless inband version of a DCN. As an o= perator >>>>>> of the actual data network, you also didn't have any access to bring= down the DCN >>>>>> and cut yourself off from the network you manage. YOu could only scr= ew >>>>>> up that network you're meant to manage. >>>>>> >>>>>> And if your network consists of VMs in a DC, a "shutdown" on their >>>>>> interfaces will also not bring down physical interfaces necessary >>>>>> to reach the VM. >>>>>> >>>>>> In optical networks you often have an inband physcial ethernet manag= ement >>>>>> channel. Making/breaking that one is completely different from makin= g/breaking >>>>>> your data-plane, aka: data fiber colors. >>>>>> >>>>>>> ***=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The notion in 10.3.6 that the device should r= efuse to disable >>>>>>> functionality when an authorized administrator directs such seems f= latly wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> The authorization to break your own remote management connectivity >>>>>> would be a property of the certificate. clearly whoever enrolled >>>>>> the device with a certificate denying that capaility to the operator >>>>>> did NOT authorize the administrator to break connectivity. >>>>> >>>>> The security model change seems as problematic as the above configura= tion >>>>> change. >>>> >>>> We have recurringly heard from customers that mistakes in managing rem= ote >>>> equipment and loosing connectivity is a mayor pain point. Creating >>>> an operational option that limits/disables operators ability to >>>> impact phy level connectivity that remote management depends upon and = therefore >>>> reducing this risk and cost factor seems to me like a very logical pah >>>> forward. Whether or not this should be indicated in the certificate >>>> or differently is definitely wide open. >>>> >>>> I agree that none of these operational interface level changes are >>>> a piece of cake given how we have in the IETF not tried to define >>>> different access levels to configuration so far, at least not >>>> between some phy/infra access level and network-services access level. >>>> >>>> As said above in my first reply that you didn't comment on, i think a >>>> good part of what i am looking for may happen through other means >>>> already, such as when a router is just a VM running on an OS. At least >>>> in early versions of this that i'd seen, this implicitly disabled >>>> the ability to modify phy state from the router VM, and of course >>>> complaints where raised that phy mods where necessary, but at least th= is >>>> evolution could give raise to pause and rethink HOW to permit doing th= is. >>>> >>>> So i would at least like to pledge with you that it is a good thing to >>>> have this type of discussion in an informational way in this RFC inste= ad >>>> of doing nothing or trying to go standard YANG directly as a first ste= p. >>>> It did get into the spec because of the desire of the working group. >>>> >>>>>>> Editorial / Nits: >>>>> . >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the various formats in sec= tion 6.10, the lowest bit of the upper 64 bits >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is mandated to be 0.=C2=A0 Pr= esumably, there is some reason for doing this.=C2=A0 It >>>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 would be nice to explain it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, not clear what you're referring to. Can you give me an >>>>>> explicit reference ? >>>>> >>>>> I should ahve removed this note.=C2=A0 It was a side-effect of the pr= esentation >>>>> and ordering, not a problem on its own.=C2=A0 Sorry. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Toerless >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> --=20 >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de >=20 From nobody Thu May 17 14:54:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA126128896; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HHGClVhSq5Uy; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA5C0129C5D; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id y189-v6so10762931itb.2; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DIE5KIBuQ3zqhE3E2Auy08yDTDAQMeULIWkHPPtfLho=; b=l2nk1EJV0BlGG0bfbpcX6n/0mpOK0spGhHVqI85o64P7AxbSrnJpciOSL49Ky/wRun NuA8EatTCcLiXcscsQvE6uHDHIsIjYxkRydM/HDDCtBt+1FO0IJC/GVvvXEQfBV8p0KU MMsgoddHAL651/TLLZW1vVdTvWDYWQWCU5Lcq/vZpzFZYUtPZgyom5WRCm8IC+w7nJhh M3YZSPkCoK9amwCpcVj6aauJw9cSSOGJ5/tGSKab+epuzsu7EHrvNiiiPkzmV90ha+0S 4uitKaQFhrMKl7xfgKAzzd+oYzTlIgLh/pNwwM+Ulvj94nyYC1Oq0R5vEsWNoNIRChLt T1GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DIE5KIBuQ3zqhE3E2Auy08yDTDAQMeULIWkHPPtfLho=; b=H9lO18TLZrS6jGJNkr+2QMhiCW2jWyphTh0UspJBFvHu/rvz+ikux4OYfvPFICbGFM Fv2M9EL0eaFnbw3P92s4aNO65Yw1r95g/5Quu3bei5LFopCaGSn7wQzs1Caho4XhbmsX V6D6jOFIDYD/F2ULggWlA4tjEN/P9dBg9SvNdpHnTuUnOgVU1ZC9WFDqb6nvfMoiG9Dw 6EoI1gxuXg8IaCt/wX4YFMqymjODi1zAJ27HjTrnj2nSF20za/sOmWXKXbglfOYvGEfU XOdv+HwQRAXMrVcT7F1RuQHX0y4rMnkgUEBq6ywU7CcUOfsIvtrd3ps8PYQOMVO7Qguc oD0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdNHpl8qrqiVeuYMVv/IHLPbT11S3wCq6xZgXfV2S66o1S+vbrp /9V3xatPrc3ePACB+ACBzuKZG6zju7F6BCT7JQgmHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZpwY+90/sSLwBeRwInT5UzmA3cqBzBXWUgKZd0Kb6jqw8lm+ZFuynnVwZGmGA+iu7rs0cpzn0TLUpXlTlxl3zk= X-Received: by 2002:a24:7451:: with SMTP id o78-v6mr4473596itc.113.1526594070824; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:37d6:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:54:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Victoria Pritchard Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 22:54:30 +0100 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext.all@ietf.org, idr-chairs@ietf.org Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, idr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004ecc38056c6de130" Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 21:54:35 -0000 --0000000000004ecc38056c6de130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D re= view of this draft. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06 The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perform an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted= for publication to the IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft=E2=80=99s lifetime as a working group document. The purpose of the ea= rly review depends on the stage that the document has reached. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Document: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06.txt Reviewer: Victoria Pritchard Review Date: 17/05/2018 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be considered, just a few things that weren't clear to me, but these may be obvious to the intended audience. Comments: (1) I found the document difficult to read with so many references to definitions in other drafts. I noticed that the other drafts sometimes duplicate text from each other, so wonder if that should be done here too to aid readability, along with a comment that these parts have the same definition in the IS-IS and OSPF extensions too. e.g. 2.2.1 but applies throughout. (2) I found Table 5 6 and 7 really useful, since it became clear that the TLVs defined here for BGP map to OSPF and IS-IS extensions. I'd like to see these tables earlier in the draft. (3) Sections 2.1, 2.2, 2.3.1, 2.3.4 all mention "SR TLV" or "corresponding TLV" but it wasn't clear what these were. (4) Section 2.1.1 If length is 3 and the rightmost 20 bits are a label, what are the other bits for? (5) 2.1.2. The capabilities TLV "advertise the node's SR capabilities and its Segment Routing Global Base (SRGB) range(s)", but the format diagram only contains Segment ID information. What are the capabilities? Or does the presence of this TLV indicate the capability? (6) 2.1.2, 2.1.4 The range size is followed by a single SID? Is this the same for the Range TLV in 2.3.4? (7) 2.1.5 The SRMS Preference TLV only contains the Preference value, so it was unclear how this is linked to a mapping server? Is the mapping server some other field in the message? (8) 2.3.1 If the flags field is to be used according to the flags from the corresponding source protocol, does the receiver know the source protocol and therefore how to interpret this field? 2.3.2 says to look in NLRI for Protocol-ID so may be worth stating the same here. (9) 2.3.4.1 repeats that the flags of the "Range TLV" are set according to the definition in the OSPF drafts. Is that the Range TLV defined here (in which case this is already stated in 2.3.4), or the OSPF Extended Prefix Range TLV (in which case, why would you need to clarify how those flags are used)= ? Does this paragraph mean you copy the TLV used in OSPF and also add a Prefix-SID? So for each mapping there are 2 TLVs? 2.3.4.2 is much clearer in the way it presents this. Again a note about Protocol-ID may help here since the sub-TLVs included are different depending on the protocol. (10) Table 5,6,7. Is the fact the length is variable is interesting in this table? I would like to see this table earlier in the draft to visualise the OSPF and IS-IS information you are aiming to share using this BGP extension= . --0000000000004ecc38056c6de130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello

    I have been selected t= o do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of this draft.=C2= =A0

    The routing directorate = will, on request from the working group chair, perform an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2= =80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to the IESG= . The early review can be performed at any time during the draft=E2=80=99s = lifetime as a working group document. The purpose of the early review depen= ds on the stage that the document has reached.

    For= more information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tool= s.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

    Document:= draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06.txt
    Reviewer: Victo= ria Pritchard
    Review Date: 17/05/2018=C2=A0
    Intended St= atus: Standards Track

    Summary:
    I have so= me minor concerns about this document that I think should be considered, ju= st a few things that weren't clear to me, but these may be obvious to t= he intended audience.

    Comments:

    (1)
    I found the document difficult to read with so many re= ferences to definitions in other drafts. I noticed that the other drafts so= metimes duplicate text from each other, so wonder if that should be done he= re too to aid readability, along with a comment that these parts have the s= ame definition in the IS-IS and OSPF extensions too. e.g. 2.2.1 but applies= throughout.

    (2)
    I found Table 5 6 and 7= really useful, since it became clear that the TLVs defined here for BGP ma= p to OSPF and IS-IS extensions. I'd like to see these tables earlier in= the draft.

    (3)
    Sections 2.1, 2.2, 2.3.1= , 2.3.4 all mention "SR TLV" or "corresponding TLV" but= it wasn't clear what these were.

    (4)
    Section 2.1.1=C2=A0
    If length is 3 and the rightmost 20 bits ar= e a label, what are the other bits for?

    (5)
    <= div>2.1.2. The capabilities TLV "advertise the node's SR capabilit= ies and its Segment Routing Global Base (SRGB) range(s)", but the form= at diagram only contains Segment ID information. What are the capabilities?= Or does the presence of this TLV indicate the capability?=C2=A0
    =
    (6)
    2.1.2, 2.1.4
    The range size is f= ollowed by a single SID? Is this the same for the Range TLV in 2.3.4?
    =

    (7)
    2.1.5 The SRMS Preference TLV only contai= ns the Preference value, so it was unclear how this is linked to a mapping = server? Is the mapping server some other field in the message?
    (8)
    2.3.1
    If the flags field is to be used= according to the flags from the corresponding source protocol, does the re= ceiver know the source protocol and therefore how to interpret this field? = 2.3.2 says to look in NLRI for Protocol-ID so may be worth stating the same= here.

    (9)
    2.3.4.1 repeats that the flag= s of the "Range TLV" are set according to the definition in the O= SPF drafts. Is that the Range TLV defined here (in which case this is alrea= dy stated in 2.3.4), or the OSPF Extended Prefix Range TLV (in which case, = why would you need to clarify how those flags are used)?
    Does thi= s paragraph mean you copy the TLV used in OSPF and also add a Prefix-SID? S= o for each mapping there are 2 TLVs? 2.3.4.2 is much clearer in the way it = presents this.
    Again a note about Protocol-ID may help here since= the sub-TLVs included are different depending on the protocol.
    <= br>
    (10)
    Table 5,6,7. Is the fact the length is variabl= e is interesting in this table? I would like to see this table earlier in t= he draft to visualise the OSPF and IS-IS information you are aiming to shar= e using this BGP extension.


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draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 12:35:48 -0000 Greg, looking back in the doc I found: Poll (P) Set to 1 if the local system is sending a Poll Sequence or is a session of type MultipointHead soliciting the identities of the tails, or 0 if not. This looks to me as not being in line with the rest of the document, especially the part on "MultipointHead soliciting the identities of the tails". Am I right in thinking that this anticipates on draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail ? If so, please clarify this in the doc; if not, please correct me. Thanks -m Le 2018-05-15 à 1:09, Greg Mirsky a écrit : > Hi Michael, > thank you for the most expedient response. Both updates are in the new > working version. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson > > wrote: > > > Greg Mirsky > > wrote: >     > The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is the >     > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would > stressing that >     > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: > >     txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 > of [RFC5880]. > >     > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section > 14.3.3: > >     txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 > of [RFC5880]. > > That seems like good text. > > -- > ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network > architect  [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca > http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [ > > From nobody Mon May 21 12:39:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4C212D873; Mon, 21 May 2018 12:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 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Ym9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_CY1PR0201MB1436F9BFD9BA41F921B2C4C084950CY1PR0201MB1436_-- From nobody Mon May 21 15:17:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietf.org Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C1212D88E; Mon, 21 May 2018 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ines Robles To: Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.80.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152694106121.7908.13286903159935171274@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 15:17:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [RTG-DIR] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical-08 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 22:17:41 -0000 Reviewer: Ines Robles Review result: Has Issues Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-sfc-hierarchical-08 Reviewer: Ines Robles Review Date: 05-21-2018 Intended status: Informational Summary: I believe the draft is technically good. This document is well written and clear to understand. The figures are clear and helpful. The draft presents some minor issues that I think should be resolved before publication. Comments: Major Issues: No major issues found. Minor Issues: - It would be nice to add a terminology section that references section 1.4 of rfc7665, section 1.3 of rfc8300 (since you are using NSH-aware defined there) and add definitions such as IBN. - Question: about this sentence in pag. 3: "...The "domains" discussed in this document are assumed to be under the control of a single organization...". Is it the same if we say "...The "SFC-Enabled Domains" discussed in this document are assumed to be under the control of a single organization ..."? Nits: -- It would be nice to expand NSH in the Introduction section. -- In Figure 1, it would be nice to add a number to the Classifiers, e.g.CF#1, then when you mention that in the text you can reference it, e.g. "One path is shown from edge classifier (CF#1) to SFF1 to Sub-domain#1..." -- In Figure 6, it would be nice to add in the legend section the meaning for DPI. Thanks, Ines. 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Tue, 22 May 2018 07:02:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.232.12 with HTTP; Tue, 22 May 2018 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 00:01:43 +1000 Message-ID: To: Ravi Singh Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 14:02:10 -0000 Thanks a lot for your review, Ravi! I'll post the updated version to address your comments later on this week or at the beginning of the next week. On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ravi Singh wrote: > Hello, > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related draf= ts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on sp= ecial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Ro= uting ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see h= ttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last = Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussi= on or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras > Reviewer: Ravi Singh > Review Date: May 21, 2018 > Intended Status: Informational > Summary: This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits t= hat should be considered prior to publication. > > Nits: > 1. For readability sake for wider audiences, first usage of acronym in th= e draft should expand the acronym even though the usage of many of these ac= ronyms is pretty common: > a. Section 3.1.2: RDNSS, SLAAC, CPE > b. 3.2.6: ULA > c. 3.2.7: DAD > d. 3.3: SDN, RTT > > 2. Typo corrections: > a. POI -> PIO > 3.1.2: 2 occurrences > 3.2.4 & 3.2.7: 2 occurrences each > b. 3Section .2.6: > "algorith" - > "algorithm" > > c. In section 3.1.2: > > "address selected by a host as described in Section 3.1.2. Howe= ver," -> > "address selected by a host as described in Section 3.1.1. Howe= ver," > > d. Section 3.2.3: typo: quoted section # needs correction. > " correct uplink based on the source address as described in Se= ction 3.2.1." > -> > "correct uplink based on the source address as described in Sect= ion 3.1.1." > > 3. Section 3.2.5: > "For simplicity, all topologies below show the ISP uplinks terminate= d" > -> > "For simplicity, all topologies above show the ISP uplinks terminate= d" ? > > 4. Section 3.3 & 3.4: the text seems to indicate that this draft if propo= sing some solution, even though as indicated in this draft's abstract=E2=80= =A6.the solution being referenced is in ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihomin= g and this draft if describing the use of that solution in sample scenarios= . Slight rewording of text should help to address this. > > > Regards > Ravi > --=20 sincerely yours, Jen Linkova a.k.a Furry Network Engineer From nobody Wed May 23 02:26:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F024D12DA17; Wed, 23 May 2018 02:26:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5kO_1NQD8vfO; 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([173.36.7.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 23 May 2018 04:26:08 -0500 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: Victoria Pritchard , "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext.all@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06 Thread-Index: AQHT7imn6iG/2V1bEES012ULhBHnvKQ1EVhwgAgCNvA= Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:26:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3337212e2a8b470fbb09b15e21445830@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com> References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.38.141] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-06 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate 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IGEgZml4ZWQgc2l6ZSBUTFYgdGhhdCB3YXMgbWlzc2luZyBmcm9tIHRoZXNlIHRhYmxlcy4NCg0K SSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSB0aGlzIHRhYmxlIGVhcmxpZXIgaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0IHRvIHZp c3VhbGlzZSB0aGUgT1NQRiBhbmQgSVMtSVMgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24geW91IGFyZSBhaW1pbmcgdG8g c2hhcmUgdXNpbmcgdGhpcyBCR1AgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIFtLVF0gQXMgbWVudGlvbmVkIHByZXZpb3Vz bHksIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgZm9yd2FyZCByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gdGhpcyB0YWJsZS4NCg== From nobody Wed May 23 03:04:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C366612DA23; Wed, 23 May 2018 03:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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"mpls-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03 Thread-Index: AdPxHComHzVKTJV6QRCxYZYkPv0ozABWLVLQ Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:03:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:04:13 -0000 SGkgSm9uLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBkZXRhaWxlZCByZXZpZXcgYW5kIHVzZWZ1bCBjb21t 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DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmlwd_IvOMMf; Wed, 23 May 2018 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x230.google.com (mail-ot0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADD84127873; Wed, 23 May 2018 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l12-v6so26771921oth.6; Wed, 23 May 2018 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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Malis" Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 16:28:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Harish Sitaraman Cc: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw.all@ietf.org" , "pals@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054a1eb056ce560ba" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw-05.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 20:28:26 -0000 --00000000000054a1eb056ce560ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Harish, Thanks, your review is greatly appreciated! Stewart, Ignas, and I will discuss your comments and get back to you. Cheers, Andy On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Harish Sitaraman wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts > as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the > review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the > Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/ > area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would > be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call > comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion > or by > updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw-05.txt > Reviewer: Harish Sitaraman > Review Date: 23 May 2018 > IETF LC End Date: 29 May 2018 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should > be > considered prior to publication. > > Comments: > This document is well written. The context is specified: RAC has been > issuing > more Ethernet addresses starting with 0x4 or 0x6 and existing ECMP > implementations may > examine the first nibble after the MPLS label stack to determine whether > the > labeled packet is IP or not. This can cause unreliable inference of the > payload > type at transit routers that may have been inspecting the first nibble. > > For my understanding, it would be useful to know how section 5 relates (or > offers more clarity) to the recommendation that CW MUST be used - the > solutions > in section 5 are known for better ECMP and applicable regardless of > whether the > packet has the CW. With the statement "However in both cases the situation > is > improved compared...based on the five tuple of the IP payload.", is the > point > that hashing would be "improved" (for some definition) since incorrect > identification of payload is corrected but yet we cannot precisely steer > the > OAM packet along the specific ECMP path that the data packet may have > taken? > > What is the intent behind the final paragraph in section 5 considering it > mentions the existing stacking order of labels between PW, LSP and EL/ELI - > could this paragraph be removed or should it also mention the flow label > position > from Fat PW? > > Major Issues: > No major issues found. > > Minor Issues: > Section 2: RFC2119 has been updated by RFC8174. > > Nits: > Section 5: LSP entropy labels specified 'in' [RFC6790] > > Check if style consistency for references might be useful: > Section 4: RFC6391 [RFC6391] vs. [RFC6391] vs. RFC6391 - all are used in > the document. > Similarly for RFC6790 references. > Section 4/5: EL - expanded first in section 5, 3rd para "entropy label > (EL)" but used earliest in section 4. > Might be better to expand ELI too. > > -- > Harish > > --00000000000054a1eb056ce560ba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Harish,

    Thanks, your review is greatly = appreciated! Stewart, Ignas, and I will discuss your comments and get back = to you.

    Cheers,
    Andy


    On Wed, Ma= y 23, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Harish Sitaraman <hsitaraman@juniper.net&g= t; wrote:

    Hello,

    I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e
    Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a= s
    they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the review= is
    to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tool= s.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

    Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld
    be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or= by
    updating the draft.

    Document: draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw-05.txt
    Reviewer: Harish Sitaraman
    Review Date: 23 May 2018
    IETF LC End Date: 29 May 2018
    Intended Status: Standards Track

    Summary:
    This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should = be
    considered prior to publication.

    Comments:
    This document is well written. The context is specified: RAC has been issui= ng
    more Ethernet addresses starting with 0x4 or 0x6 and existing ECMP implemen= tations may
    examine the first nibble after the MPLS label stack to determine whether th= e
    labeled packet is IP or not. This can cause unreliable inference of the pay= load
    type at transit routers that may have been inspecting the first nibble.

    For my understanding, it would be useful to know how section 5 relates (or<= br> offers more clarity) to the recommendation that CW MUST be used - the solut= ions
    in section 5 are known for better ECMP and applicable regardless of whether= the
    packet has the CW. With the statement "However in both cases the situa= tion is
    improved compared...based on the five tuple of the IP payload.", is th= e point
    that hashing would be "improved" (for some definition) since inco= rrect
    identification of payload is corrected but yet we cannot precisely steer th= e
    OAM packet along the specific ECMP path that the data packet may have taken= ?

    What is the intent behind the final paragraph in section 5 considering it mentions the existing stacking order of labels between PW, LSP and EL/ELI -=
    could this paragraph be removed or should it also mention the flow label po= sition
    from Fat PW?

    Major Issues:
    No major issues found.

    Minor Issues:
    Section 2: RFC2119 has been updated by RFC8174.

    Nits:
    Section 5: LSP entropy labels specified 'in' [RFC6790]

    Check if style consistency for references might be useful:
    =C2=A0 Section 4: RFC6391 [RFC6391] vs. [RFC6391] vs. RFC6391 - all are use= d in the document.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Similarly for RFC6790 references.
    =C2=A0 Section 4/5: EL - expanded first in section 5, 3rd para "entrop= y label (EL)" but used earliest in section 4.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Might be better to expand ELI too.

    --
    Harish


    --00000000000054a1eb056ce560ba-- From nobody Thu May 24 06:13:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E21712DA72; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FBDzVS-3wJDY; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF77712DA4A; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id a67-v6so4968210wmf.3; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=79pv3Y0AD5gsu/sYW8zx3Feu6z4c7H818PkHoGxuNKs=; b=mvYhQ0/tP7qNtQwiySQssQRbgL6pQl3MCQYneF882jTHR6PJyuwoUIO+GB0O81mZgx q4p5LbK6eMJFVd8n4z3vnjcQFK1x9Q4SvCRnKIsWL76Ya4WbEnCEOZcl6GSJC7t2yBhk 0zVsJYgXHW3z5BzFllvUd1b0+uHHQXANekcu0F1xS09boA9nHs2f2NcLSvDcnwdINyWi dUn53fj/+JvrmvI+JTNmJ7xnRF+tTnPMidrDZARSia8HQB+50Msg44jnKslEIHi1JLVK jEnxSxCuAc1vJzdoFpdk1gedBD72y4lsXZL7p0w8W9gx/rrWC2MYuf6oDJDmQt9i1vHx reiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=79pv3Y0AD5gsu/sYW8zx3Feu6z4c7H818PkHoGxuNKs=; b=WmMrdr93XzihpMWmvtPpKT2e9eVjCeBOHYVoZpcMEeZO4kZMWuhJAFzcFN3EYRDjCa PzB8eabVBhtO5PukEfUdBwtK1sC/pVF0qvhYSaQXlJrWMXNGEuS76yStPmMvuMvs1CUg Ig6D+JlssM/+5xfVDorwc5lfO5wstAA9R/Td8W9dVmM0zUnSl+a2HZSiry8vYlwGoOig a+5zrjIN33zgNEh5GWFKcoWgR7YJrxeg9nC1D0IVzLhvKB7coXHhLRHeo6EzUq06PWs3 JpksPAabZrTJWkyTJorVC4buQARnPIxUic+Ran2FZQlTkMK+qQd5QaCB5+u220PaOv5e JV/g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwefdRO9dINUCV4PySVhG6+zdO8DoabD3wNRm15CGoPD5eP13R/X af165XQlFewt1bNDoYdmfQN3tp5x4r/fodYsuzE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZoX0jwrLa1YoqMvyplSj795TV8I6BcUlj7M1x5ybTNObwU3Y+Uc7yiUNW6zyLVBH/TKd9cFgaLhTFdIdPzmiz4= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:d7d0:: with SMTP id o199-v6mr7072892wmg.61.1527167613396; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:adf:9976:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 24 May 2018 06:13:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: George Swallow Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 09:13:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mach Chen Cc: Jonathan Hardwick , "draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001beb9c056cf36b17" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 13:13:40 -0000 --0000000000001beb9c056cf36b17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mach - >> >> Top of page 13: >> The initiator LSR sends two MPLS echo request messages to traverse >> the two LAG members at TTL=3D1: >> =E2=80=9CTTL=3D1=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CTTL=3Dn=E2=80=9D. > >Good catch, fixed. At this point in the procedure you have already reached the node at ttl=3Dn= . You are now probing a LAG that extends to the node at TTL=3Dn+1. S0 the text should be "TTL=3Dn+1". Thanks, George On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 6:03 AM, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for the detailed review and useful comments! > > Please see some responses inline... > > > From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 3:39 AM > > To: draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; > mpls- > > chairs@ietf.org > > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org > > Subject: Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag- > multipath-03 > > > > Hello > > > > I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80= =9D review of this > draft. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath= / > > > > The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, > perform > > an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted for= publication to > the > > IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft= =E2=80=99s > > lifetime as a working group document. The purpose of the early review > > depends on the stage that the document has reached. As this document i= s > close > > to working group last call, my focus for the review was to determine > whether > > the document is ready to be published. Please consider my comments alo= ng > > with the other working group last call comments. > > > > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > > > Best regards > > Jon > > > > > > Document: draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03.txt > > Reviewer: Jonathan Hardwick > > Review Date: 21 May 2018 > > Intended Status: Standards Track > > > > Summary > > This document looks ready for working group last call. I have a few > minor > > issues that I am sure can be resolved during the last call. > > > > > > Section 2 > > First paragraph: the reference to section 3.3 of [RFC8029] looks wrong. > Should > > it be a reference to section 4? > > It was intended to refer to Section 3.3 RFC4079 (Downstream Mapping). > > How about the following text: > "Reader is expected to be familiar with mechanics of Downstream Mapping > described in Section 3.3 of RFC8029 and Downstream Detailed Mapping TLV > (DDMAP) described in Section 3.4 of RFC8029." > > > > > > Section 3 > > =E2=80=9CWhen the responder LSR receives an MPLS echo reply message=E2= =80=9D <- you mean > > =E2=80=9CMPLS echo request message=E2=80=9D. > > Yes. > > > > > Section 5.1 > > This is fine, but I found it a bit cumbersome to read. How about this > rewording? > > NEW > > If the downstream LSR does not return Remote Interface Index sub-TLVs > in > > the DDMAP, then the initiator LSR validates LAG member link traversal > by > > traversing all available LAG member links and then using the procedur= e > > described > > below. This section provides the mechanism for the initiator LSR to > obtain > > additional information from the downstream LSRs and describes the > additional > > logic in the initiator LSR to validate the L2 ECMP traversal. > > END > > This looks good to me, thanks for the new text! > > > > > Section 5.1.3 > > For my interest, why are you using =E2=80=9Centropy=E2=80=9D here? It = sounds like you > mean > > =E2=80=9Cprobability=E2=80=9D, but I might have misunderstood your mean= ing. > > The "entropy" is used to select specific LAG member link, it has the > similar concept as "entropy label". > > > > > Top of page 13: > > The initiator LSR sends two MPLS echo request messages to traverse > > the two LAG members at TTL=3D1: > > =E2=80=9CTTL=3D1=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CTTL=3Dn=E2=80=9D. > > Good catch, fixed. > > > > > Section 6 > > Typo =E2=80=9Cin the in the=E2=80=9D > > Fixed. > > > > > Section 8 and 9 > > This draft only discusses using the new Local & Remote Interface Index > Sub- > > TLVs in the context of a DDMAP for a LAG interface, so I was surprised > to read > > that it is permissible to set M=3D0 in these TLVs. You should describe > how the > > TLV is used in that case, if you are going to allow it. > > Does the M flag need to be set consistently in all Local & Remote > Interface > > Index Sub-TLVs in a given DDMAP TLV? > > In fact, isn=E2=80=99t the M flag redundant, given that the enclosing D= DMAP has > the > > "LAG Description Indicator flag"? > > Indeed, seems redundant, I will do double check on it. > > > > > Section 10 > > Why do you need the Sub-TLV length field? It can be inferred from the > TLV > > length and the address type. > > Indeed, and I personally agree, I will talk to the co-authors, if there i= s > no further reasons, will remove the sub-TLV length field. > > > Section 10.1.1 =E2=80=93 if the LSR received no labels (e.g. PHP case) = then > should it omit > > this sub-TLV, or include an empty sub-TLV? > > The sub-TLV is derived from Label Stack Sub-TLV defined in 8029, it has > the same usage as Label Stack Sub-TLV. So, for that case, the sub-TLV > should be included and an Implicit Null label returned. > > > > > Other nits > > Throughout, English grammar needs to be fine-tuned e.g. there are > definite > > and indefinite articles missing. However, I found the document perfect= ly > > readable, so perhaps this can be left for the RFC editor. > > Sure, thanks. > > Best regards, > Mach > --0000000000001beb9c056cf36b17 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Mach -

    >>
    >> Top of page 13:
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The initiator LSR sends two MPLS echo request message= s to traverse
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the two LAG members at TTL=3D1:
    >> =E2=80=9CTTL=3D1=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CTTL=3Dn=E2=80=9D.
    >
    >Good catch, fixed.

    At this point in the procedure you hav= e already reached the node at ttl=3Dn.=C2=A0 You are now probing a LAG that= extends to the node at TTL=3Dn+1.=C2=A0

    S0 the text should b= e "TTL=3Dn+1".

    Thanks,

    George
    =

    On Wed, May 23, 2= 018 at 6:03 AM, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:
    Hi Jon,

    Thanks for the detailed review and useful comments!

    Please see some responses inline...

    > From: Jonathan Hardwick [mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com]
    > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 3:39 AM
    > To: draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; mpls-
    > chairs@ietf.org
    > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org
    > Subject: Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03
    >
    > Hello
    >
    > I have been selected to do a routing directorate =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80= =9D review of this draft.
    > https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath/
    >
    > The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair,= perform
    > an =E2=80=9Cearly=E2=80=9D review of a draft before it is submitted fo= r publication to the
    > IESG.=C2=A0 The early review can be performed at any time during the d= raft=E2=80=99s
    > lifetime as a working group document.=C2=A0 The purpose of the early r= eview
    > depends on the stage that the document has reached.=C2=A0 As this docu= ment is close
    > to working group last call, my focus for the review was to determine w= hether
    > the document is ready to be published.=C2=A0 Please consider my commen= ts along
    > with the other working group last call comments.
    >
    > For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
    > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/= trac/wiki/RtgDir
    >
    > Best regards
    > Jon
    >
    >
    > Document: draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03.txt
    > Reviewer: Jonathan Hardwick
    > Review Date: 21 May 2018
    > Intended Status: Standards Track
    >
    > Summary
    > This document looks ready for working group last call.=C2=A0 I have a = few minor
    > issues that I am sure can be resolved during the last call.
    >
    >
    > Section 2
    > First paragraph: the reference to section 3.3 of [RFC8029] looks wrong= .=C2=A0 Should
    > it be a reference to section 4?

    It was intended to refer to Section 3.3 RFC4079 (Downstream Map= ping).

    How about the following text:
    "Reader is expected to be familiar with mechanics of Downstream Mappin= g described in Section 3.3 of RFC8029 and Downstream Detailed Mapping TLV (= DDMAP) described in Section 3.4 of RFC8029."


    >
    > Section 3
    > =E2=80=9CWhen the responder LSR receives an MPLS echo reply message=E2= =80=9D <- you mean
    > =E2=80=9CMPLS echo request message=E2=80=9D.

    Yes.

    >
    > Section 5.1
    > This is fine, but I found it a bit cumbersome to read.=C2=A0 How about= this rewording?
    > NEW
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the downstream LSR does not return Remote Interface Ind= ex sub-TLVs in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0the DDMAP, then the initiator LSR validates LAG member lin= k traversal by
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing all available LAG member links and then using t= he procedure
    > described
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0below.=C2=A0 This section provides the mechanism for the i= nitiator LSR to obtain
    > additional information from the downstream LSRs and describes the addi= tional
    > logic in the initiator LSR to validate the L2 ECMP traversal.
    > END

    This looks good to me, thanks for the new text!

    >
    > Section 5.1.3
    > For my interest, why are you using =E2=80=9Centropy=E2=80=9D here?=C2= =A0 It sounds like you mean
    > =E2=80=9Cprobability=E2=80=9D, but I might have misunderstood your mea= ning.

    The "entropy" is used to select specific LAG member link, = it has the similar concept as "entropy label".

    >
    > Top of page 13:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The initiator LSR sends two MPLS echo request messages to= traverse
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the two LAG members at TTL=3D1:
    > =E2=80=9CTTL=3D1=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CTTL=3Dn=E2=80=9D.

    Good catch, fixed.

    >
    > Section 6
    > Typo =E2=80=9Cin the in the=E2=80=9D

    Fixed.

    >
    > Section 8 and 9
    > This draft only discusses using the new Local & Remote Interface I= ndex Sub-
    > TLVs in the context of a DDMAP for a LAG interface, so I was surprised= to read
    > that it is permissible to set M=3D0 in these TLVs.=C2=A0 You should de= scribe how the
    > TLV is used in that case, if you are going to allow it.
    > Does the M flag need to be set consistently in all Local & Remote = Interface
    > Index Sub-TLVs=C2=A0 in a given DDMAP TLV?
    > In fact, isn=E2=80=99t the M flag redundant, given that the enclosing = DDMAP has the
    > "LAG Description Indicator flag"?

    Indeed, seems redundant, I will do double check on it.

    >
    > Section 10
    > Why do you need the Sub-TLV length field?=C2=A0 It can be inferred fro= m the TLV
    > length and the address type.

    Indeed, and I personally agree, I will talk to the co-authors, if th= ere is no further reasons, will remove the sub-TLV length field.

    > Section 10.1.1 =E2=80=93 if the LSR received no labels (e.g. PHP case)= then should it omit
    > this sub-TLV, or include an empty sub-TLV?

    The sub-TLV is derived from Label Stack Sub-TLV defined in 8029, it = has the same usage as Label Stack Sub-TLV. So, for that case, the sub-TLV s= hould be included and an Implicit Null label returned.

    >
    > Other nits
    > Throughout, English grammar needs to be fine-tuned e.g. there are defi= nite
    > and indefinite articles missing.=C2=A0 However, I found the document p= erfectly
    > readable, so perhaps this can be left for the RFC editor.

    Sure, thanks.

    Best regards,
    Mach

    --0000000000001beb9c056cf36b17-- From nobody Thu May 24 18:04:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830B612D7F1; Thu, 24 May 2018 18:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5K6Vhd87QKU; Thu, 24 May 2018 18:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6148E1273B1; Thu, 24 May 2018 18:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 69C72ED2AAF87; Fri, 25 May 2018 02:04:28 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.40) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 25 May 2018 02:04:29 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.161]) by dggeml423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Fri, 25 May 2018 09:04:22 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: George Swallow CC: Jonathan Hardwick , "draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Routing directorate review of draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03 Thread-Index: AdPxHComHzVKTJV6QRCxYZYkPv0ozABWLVLQACpFoYAAKSrhEA== Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 01:04:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: 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<9C5FD3EFA72E1740A3D41BADDE0B461FCF003008@dggema521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <28935.1526166269@localhost> <24738.1526338685@localhost> <0d0b0e3e-c81a-f2cf-25d0-f3ea4d896376@nokia.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 19:56:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Vigoureux Cc: Michael Richardson , "" , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint.all@ietf.org, rtg-bfd@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c60ba056cfeea84" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-16 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 02:56:40 -0000 --0000000000007c60ba056cfeea84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, apologies for the delay. Yes, this text left after active-tails document was spawned. Would the following be acceptable: Poll (P) Set to 1 if the local system is sending a Poll Sequence, or 0 if not. Regards, Greg On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Martin Vigoureux < martin.vigoureux@nokia.com> wrote: > Greg, > > looking back in the doc I found: > Poll (P) > > Set to 1 if the local system is sending a Poll Sequence or is a > session of type MultipointHead soliciting the identities of the > tails, or 0 if not. > > This looks to me as not being in line with the rest of the document, > especially the part on "MultipointHead soliciting the identities of the > tails". > Am I right in thinking that this anticipates on > draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail ? > > If so, please clarify this in the doc; if not, please correct me. > > Thanks > -m > > Le 2018-05-15 =C3=A0 1:09, Greg Mirsky a =C3=A9crit : > >> Hi Michael, >> thank you for the most expedient response. Both updates are in the new >> working version. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson < >> mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca > wrote: >> >> >> Greg Mirsky > >> wrote: >> > The text that follows the first sentence in section 4.13.1 is >> the >> > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. Would >> stressing that >> > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: >> >> txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.6 >> of [RFC5880]. >> >> > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in section >> 14.3.3: >> >> txt> The following procedure replaces the entire section 6.8.7 >> of [RFC5880]. >> >> That seems like good text. >> >> -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv= 6 >> mesh >> networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network >> architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca >> http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ >> >> >> --0000000000007c60ba056cfeea84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Martin,
    apologies for the delay. Yes, this text lef= t after active-tails document was spawned. Would the following be acceptabl= e:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Poll (P)

    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Set to 1 if the local system is sending a= Poll Sequence, or 0 if not.

    Regards,
    <= div>Greg

    On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Martin Vigoureux <= martin.vigo= ureux@nokia.com> wrote:
    Gre= g,

    looking back in the doc I found:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Poll (P)

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Set to 1 if the local system is sending a= Poll Sequence or is a
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0session of type MultipointHead soliciting= the identities of the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tails, or 0 if not.

    This looks to me as not being in line with the rest of the document, especi= ally the part on "MultipointHead soliciting the identities of the tail= s".
    Am I right in thinking that this anticipates on draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-a= ctive-tail ?

    If so, please clarify this in the doc; if not, please correct me.

    Thanks
    -m

    Le 2018-05-15 =C3=A0 1:09, Greg Mirsky a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
    Hi Michael,
    thank you for the most expedient response. Both updates are in the new work= ing version.

    Regards,
    Greg

     On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mai= lto:mcr+ietf@s= andelman.ca>> wrote:


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The text that follows the first sent= ence in section 4.13.1 is the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > replacement of the entire section 6.= 8.6 of RFC 5880. Would
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 stressing that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > make the relationship more clear, e.= g.:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 txt> The following procedure replaces = the entire section 6.8.6
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of [RFC5880].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And the same can be applied to the f= irst sentence in section
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14.3.3:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 txt> The following procedure replaces = the entire section 6.8.7
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of [RFC5880].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 That seems like good text.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the odds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 mesh
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 networks [
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | network
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 architect=C2=A0 [
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ] mcr@s= andelman.ca <mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca>
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [



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Le 2018-05-25 à 4:56, Greg Mirsky a écrit : > Hi Martin, > apologies for the delay. Yes, this text left after active-tails document > was spawned. Would the following be acceptable: >       Poll (P) > >          Set to 1 if the local system is sending a Poll Sequence, or 0 > if not. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Martin Vigoureux > > wrote: > > Greg, > > looking back in the doc I found: >       Poll (P) > >          Set to 1 if the local system is sending a Poll Sequence or > is a >          session of type MultipointHead soliciting the identities > of the >          tails, or 0 if not. > > This looks to me as not being in line with the rest of the document, > especially the part on "MultipointHead soliciting the identities of > the tails". > Am I right in thinking that this anticipates on > draft-ietf-bfd-multipoint-active-tail ? > > If so, please clarify this in the doc; if not, please correct me. > > Thanks > -m > > Le 2018-05-15 à 1:09, Greg Mirsky a écrit : > > Hi Michael, > thank you for the most expedient response. Both updates are in > the new working version. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michael Richardson > > >> > wrote: > > >     Greg Mirsky >> >     wrote: >          > The text that follows the first sentence in section > 4.13.1 is the >          > replacement of the entire section 6.8.6 of RFC 5880. > Would >     stressing that >          > make the relationship more clear, e.g.: > >          txt> The following procedure replaces the entire > section 6.8.6 >     of [RFC5880]. > >          > And the same can be applied to the first sentence in > section >     14.3.3: > >          txt> The following procedure replaces the entire > section 6.8.7 >     of [RFC5880]. > >     That seems like good text. > >     --     ]               Never tell me the odds! >    | ipv6 mesh >     networks [ >     ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | > network >     architect  [ >     ] mcr@sandelman.ca > > > http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [ > > > From nobody Fri May 25 07:24:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486AF12DA1A; Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2Hkpmrnora7; Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F0E12DA09; Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f8-v6so15132300wmc.4; Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Z9BDH41+0hNwpmauZMf7kM39enM3/M77FQIkpofk/gA=; b=e8VcdUw8ng1w6kukR3xslbKv280ByNsIuVJw4APlPGVaKxrZ2suThqVOWQtVakMaB8 0/Q8az7UP96bxw9RMDRL6ZbxUaStLMFy5gYcJ/sDdJDmOkDif3So64rTo+vCRuNyk0b+ 6J7sciws6LTuyE60oUTQfeQk5Mpb5d8dgjB0AlvIy8/pa/E637b5LP28Kae3JAbMCrTL yS4qx/1pbYl16QDxIYKg3lESHry4++LgBO99MByVrkztiTN5w+VjJiCw8lASvvJuh3/9 Ddj3ZWgKMBI7CYXGKvawyFfpM3gFsIfr4LN55yqwVJWXgoukN3eU6T0szx3q3z+vjlAZ pUKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=Z9BDH41+0hNwpmauZMf7kM39enM3/M77FQIkpofk/gA=; b=HjArj3S6v6vElwylwmc202nPBYfRTR6jqUfmKeoynZ1r8Bs3szsT5VtOR5IEEV2f0z TRgW4oh91490jarfVrg+Irc2AKaRkNSPLlKucnZbfjlocA37ddmS8axU4sG4e8SWoSBr V6pzB/MgvLrdwz+2Ivc/pLBvERIRJnV3BKtcj6kRzVskib1+8HSExiWDlwFxe9jBmrZv KGocJD3LHYThuBfecDFyKZ30AfFFfaKkME+UsHhaT3BENPcok18pwjnvhvpf6xWzt9Sk sI3x5YlM85Ul1/WUdr6VwOVOtXESa6rRQuDhREp3gbEtKaY/hFzSGeGONf6tVqdljKYK alYg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdGkqPlVbBhj9eswVrVFaJuIzVz6TyrDOevtTdPHUzcrgaMtj+2 TCkct+tQBY2L6kehl2Q0M6HbbO1S X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJWR1WosFlBFquDRR4gISdKrF0aVlPY5aU818I8LsewYReKLj7QMqxW6nFlfBp6PVwRBo+8Lw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b109:: with SMTP id a9-v6mr1763767wmf.18.1527258240816; Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.105] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 67-v6sm10321815wmw.32.2018.05.25.07.23.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 May 2018 07:24:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Harish Sitaraman , "rtg-ads@ietf.org" Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw.all@ietf.org" , "pals@ietf.org" References: <24346049-C4F5-493D-AA4D-3C7D48477DBE@juniper.net> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <03e34c0f-c9d5-5c57-761c-69b6ba6faf0b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 15:23:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24346049-C4F5-493D-AA4D-3C7D48477DBE@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw-05.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 14:24:08 -0000 Harish Thank you for the review. On 23/05/2018 21:09, Harish Sitaraman wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The > Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as > they pass through IETF last call and IESG review. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the > Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would > be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call > comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by > updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-pals-ethernet-cw-05.txt > Reviewer: Harish Sitaraman > Review Date: 23 May 2018 > IETF LC End Date: 29 May 2018 > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > This document is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be > considered prior to publication. > > Comments: > This document is well written. The context is specified: RAC has been issuing > more Ethernet addresses starting with 0x4 or 0x6 and existing ECMP implementations may > examine the first nibble after the MPLS label stack to determine whether the > labeled packet is IP or not. This can cause unreliable inference of the payload > type at transit routers that may have been inspecting the first nibble. Unreliable inference when the T-PEs are sending Ethernet over PW and not using the optional  CW. > For my understanding, it would be useful to know how section 5 relates (or > offers more clarity) to the recommendation that CW MUST be used - the solutions > in section 5 are known for better ECMP and applicable regardless of whether the > packet has the CW. There are two cases we had to deal with: The main one where a PW without the CW was being deployed, in which case LSR's on the path were doing five tuple based ECMP (and making mistakes). The other case that came to light was LSRs that noting the presence of the PW by noting that the first nibble after the label stack was zero, and then (sometimes) falsely concluding that what followed the label stack was CW, Ethernet Header, IP packet and using the five tuple in the assumed IP packet to do ECMP, sometimes getting it wrong. Thus the point of this section was to explain how to correctly do ECMP on a PW. > With the statement "However in both cases the situation is > improved compared...based on the five tuple of the IP payload.", is the point > that hashing would be "improved" (for some definition) since incorrect > identification of payload is corrected but yet we cannot precisely steer the > OAM packet along the specific ECMP path that the data packet may have taken? An OAM packet does not have the five tuple, so cannot follow the same path as a five tuple packet by definition. The situation is improved if one of the non-five tuple methods are used and the same ECMP hints are included in both data and OAM packets since LSRs would select the same next hop in both cases. > What is the intent behind the final paragraph in section 5 considering it > mentions the existing stacking order of labels between PW, LSP and EL/ELI - > could this paragraph be removed or should it also mention the flow label position > from Fat PW? This text was added as a result of a WG LC comment where a reviewer wanted clarification of the ordering of these LSEs. I am not sure why anyone would want to use both EL and FAT on the same packet. FAT is always after the PW label and thus always BoS. The question the arose where would the EL go if that was used instead. The agreement was reached that since the EL was associated with the LSP, rather than the PW, and there where there is no FAT label the PW label is always BoS, it made sense for the EL to be somewhere in the LSP part of the label stack. However we also decided that it was none of our business specifying where in the label stack it belonged, other than not at the bottom. Hopefully that explanation addresses your concern. I have not changed any of the text. > Major Issues: > No major issues found. > > Minor Issues: > Section 2: RFC2119 has been updated by RFC8174. I have taken the text from RFC 8341. > > Nits: > Section 5: LSP entropy labels specified 'in' [RFC6790] done > > Check if style consistency for references might be useful: > Section 4: RFC6391 [RFC6391] vs. [RFC6391] vs. RFC6391 - all are used in the document. > Similarly for RFC6790 references. I have made everything the same style as RFC8341 (the most recent RFC published) > Section 4/5: EL - expanded first in section 5, 3rd para "entropy label (EL)" but used earliest in section 4. > Might be better to expand ELI too. Done. Thanks Stewart > > -- > Harish > From nobody Sat May 26 08:48:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F39412711E; Sat, 26 May 2018 08:47:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttcomgroup.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFhXJwCl3WKi; Sat, 26 May 2018 08:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw010.noc.ntt.com (mgw010.noc.ntt.com [210.160.55.1]) by 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846841200C5; Tue, 29 May 2018 09:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8g-QbYnBkAH; Tue, 29 May 2018 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55ABE1275FD; Tue, 29 May 2018 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w4TG24Me011445; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:04 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC59EB912; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id moexkWuj6rMS; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.irif.fr (unknown [172.23.36.89]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1956EB915; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87sh6aqwlh.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Cc: , , , , In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 29 May 2018 18:02:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5B0D797C.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5B0D797C.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5B0D797C.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir Early review: draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 16:02:10 -0000 Dear Nic, Thank you very much for your review, and sorry for the delay replying -- it's exam time here at Babel Towers. > Section 3: The use of “multicast” and “unicast” in the context of hellos is a bit > misleading. I agree. We've puzzled over that for a while, and couldn't find a better terminology. > There are Multicast Hellos, Unicast Hellos and Multicast Hellos over > Unicast. Which seqn number is used if Multicast over Unicast Hello is > send? I've clarified this. > Section 3.1: Any assumptions on the maximum size of the UDP datagrams? Beginning of Section 4. I've added a forward-reference. > Section 3.2.5: How is the timer set, is there a list with default values? It doesn't matter -- "on the order of minutes" is good enough in this case. The (informative) Appendix B gives sample values (3 minutes in this case). > Section 3.4.1: Multicast Hellos to Multicast and Unicast addresses. Should be clarified > earlier in the document. Terminology is a bit confusing. Yeah, the terminology is confusing, but as mentioned before, we couldn't agree on a better one. > Section 3.5.3: What are the use cases for Babel? How large is a large Babel Network (how > many nodes)? That's draft-ietf-babel-applicability, I'd rather not give any figures in this docuemnt. > - Later in the document (section 6) it is stated that Babel is insecure. For a large network > security is an issue and needs to be addressed. I might be ok to not implement > any security mechanisms in a relatively small home network but for a large network it’s > mission critical to have a stable, secure and reliable routing mechanism. We agree, and we're currently working on defining security mechanisms for Babel. The plan is to refer to the security document once it's finalised. > Section 3.7: What is a “multicast package” in this context? Is the > transport always with an multicast destination address? I'm not sure I understand. "Multicast packet" is shorthand for "an IP packet with a multicast destination address". The choice of multicast vs. unicast is described in the second paragraph of Section 3.1. > Page 29: “recently forwarded” and “sufficiently large”; what values do I use here? I've clarified. > Page 31, Section 4: which well-know multicast address is being used? I'm not sure I understand. The "well-known Babel multicast address" is the address assigned by IANA for Babel. > Page 48, Section 6: As mentioned earlier, security is an issue and should be addressed in > more detail. If Babel is insecure in itself an attacker being connected to a Babel network > can bring down the whole network. Typical security mechanism used in larger networks might > not be applicable to home network (e.g. due to the complexity, need for management, …). Yes, we're working on that. > The mix of “SHOULD”/”SHOULD NOT” and “RECOMMENDED/NOT RECOMMENDED” is a bit confusing. My > proposal is to use one of the pairs and not to mix them. I most humbly disagree. > “Routing Table” and “Route Table” are used. Choose one ;) This is deliberate. The "route table" is the data structure described in Section 3.2.6. "Routing table" is a generic term. > Page 5, Section 2: Reference to Bellman-Ford protocol would be nice What do you suggest? > Page 5, Section 2.2: D(A) and NH(A) are explained, but not D(S) (which > is the third piece of data out of two) Disagree. A ranges over all routers, including S. ("Every node A maintains ... D(A)") > Page 11, “router-id change Section 3.7.2 » sounds if something is missing Reworded, thanks. > Page 28, Section 3.8.1.1: “if such a route does not it must” (something is missing) Reworded, thanks. > Page 39: AE values 1 and 3 should be explained for better readability (1=IPv4, 3=llIPv6) Done. Thanks for your help, -- Juliusz