From nobody Mon Feb 4 09:14:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAAC130E86 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:14:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rmrm.io Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wQy5XAgC9WZE for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1BE6130E9B for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id k15-v6so507276ljc.8 for ; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rmrm.io; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=9851ZJBADp5S0EueGVUFoTxGRf48Oa0lyxGwCXi/kNc=; b=FbLHWAc41A4knxpE0NZ0YdIJe+uLeRIgCKSqzi0vqkidS3jMhgTz604hEcNvOcKeax ziWcOEOB6oR0WR7c/feqDoSyvr6hruVs5O1ACnHbQXTD/SRcxgBKUMExvY9sWhQWDoh1 mksp7/XWlKe1ZU2/BCUoQhKyTD9askL/EW6/+ZRTUxgwLhQuz4Bt6S5J1n1JZaKF0Bf8 2rM4znMjSx8Moxl/R7YqwNTS9skigL+leyPcDc5z3T820ILAKV5CV8ys7yA7AVkHVMeP qMvG7DSjq+7eKgUNmJo2fiog+KLu9eqpp7F6vs6eVK8pPtJOVPdOXgA9V8kpcoAE7MRU ONTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=9851ZJBADp5S0EueGVUFoTxGRf48Oa0lyxGwCXi/kNc=; b=XKJGuysEDmqaNH1g6k0QhRqj1gj0ERzMSiBN2oBdvtgXVnh0SDiUGqnWBOu3bPUrNt GJP65Ztcb2hxlZArRzazhlVc1Zs/GRzLytaGUoMTLf2mhtlNVX/HK2gocPcV0WQnKrCl +HLIjHt3mokMVqWsoYxIMmvnO0xL2ze4FlSBj0Jn+pSzkcTXtOgVbTOK/mBZjjT8Fnt2 HXmUBcSLrbQvx0ZqugNYWnmhJ3Ox8XR0pOpTwzqgxLgcN1GzSg0VpaOpSyw7xdER2oKf J4JJMKnFsaYUoSEobaqg3pKUYFDVj4e7nekVIJPMA9LFxv3XMSJAPWTXx0IQFTTJx7kd PeiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZgSGO9Ia37VbwbEqmIdjtqDg5PGPxbnnZsO8Vegv6sssmNT158 +lOpoA9cFeGOhuwEe5acRmCvapmkxKBrVzxG+6VFBmeFTwQ+jA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZm1/y844wB2jvwH95nu5YIXOV7hs46VoNC8RTOz9NJAyzrIF/WFknZvzWHv8XwhJLdZxifyhy33QpW7sAWFdw= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5356:: with SMTP id t22-v6mr276497ljd.26.1549300475267; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 09:14:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "R. Miles McCain" Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 12:14:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: secdispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007aa2f8058114a08c" Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] OpenPGP Pubkey Distribution Draft X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 17:14:40 -0000 --0000000000007aa2f8058114a08c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, Over the past several months, I have worked with Micah Lee and Nat Welch to create an Internet-Draft that formalizes the OpenPGP public key distribution system in use by The Intercept, First Look Media, and the Freedom of the Press Foundation. Currently, keeping individuals' OpenPGP public keys in sync within organizations is difficult and error-prone. Our more streamlined key distribution system (which leverages, not replaces, existing OpenPGP infrastructure such as keyservers) has worked extremely well within our own organization. We hope that formalizing our system as an IETF RFC will improve the OpenPGP ecosystem and make OpenPGP a more practical solution for email encryption in large organizations. After emailing the Chairs and communicating with Richard Barnes late last summer, he suggested that the best path forward for our Draft is either a small working group or sponsorship by an Area Director chair, and that we should announce our draft to SecDispatch. Our Internet-Draft is available at . We would appreciate any and all feedback; both comments on the Internet-Draft itself as well as on how it might be dispatched are extremely helpful. Thank you, Miles McCain, Micah Lee, and Nat Welch --0000000000007aa2f8058114a08c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Over= the past several months, I have worked with Micah Lee and Nat Welch to cre= ate an Internet-Draft that formalizes the OpenPGP public key distribution s= ystem in use by The Intercept, First Look Media, and the Freedom of the Pre= ss Foundation.

Currently, keeping individuals'= OpenPGP public keys in sync within organizations is difficult and error-pr= one. Our more streamlined key distribution system (which leverages, not rep= laces, existing OpenPGP infrastructure such as keyservers) has worked extre= mely well within our own organization. We hope that formalizing our system = as an IETF RFC will improve the OpenPGP ecosystem and make OpenPGP a more p= ractical solution for email encryption in large organizations.
After emailing the Chairs and communicating with Richard Barne= s late last summer, he suggested that the best path forward for our Draft i= s either a small working group or sponsorship by an Area Director chair, an= d that we should announce our draft to SecDispatch. Our Internet-Draft is a= vailable at <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mccain-keylist/>.

We would appreciate any and all feedback; both commen= ts on the Internet-Draft itself as well as on how it might be dispatched ar= e extremely helpful.

Thank you,
Miles Mc= Cain, Micah Lee, and Nat Welch
--0000000000007aa2f8058114a08c-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 09:31:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226A7130E86; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKDsgSoSGW6k; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0754D12426A; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id w25so1043504otm.13; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eT+XxSHyTUPHlRo+uhKEsykIIYBHjf2B2+idUA/sMMc=; b=Fwb/fjFQ6UutiWgkSnrvImJ2HZlZVxm76MRmcrjIu2WDJK64c4kyk/NimCqsT5Q64R A0Hhc98X/ccGG1A0FDXNF/V+qL/E135zCGtxcYi94uJuwl3yWcIEZJ+ROeicq8h3AqTN /lYxAoiahZiY48PQzlPTd2pJJUddN5K0KUF7voY1doyFAYfvkfEnA9IPKgsdVn/sBJA1 VFv6pdPqnRtBom3WyRkAhrr2z88j60Gz4tKY6Bo4HgOxc8leIyK15HxArXTRs94vE7K4 ftKSGV7tcmgovGjW7vOsQley0ZXDY7HL3pJ55B6aoGbbIWYb9hJQNfEUec/gY4jNEsnk HSQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eT+XxSHyTUPHlRo+uhKEsykIIYBHjf2B2+idUA/sMMc=; b=s3xQUscTwzM7iLgET4DCrLOLGKkOFTjIbZUBqG9BZJHt+YWsavmBQkE15iFmGIqhda 7Rb0mb4uj9WR+58PxYz8AG1WYJ+Wg7JjdGXXRi1oeGmqY41F1e6EE6rrDZHyVZL9w4Mh TEuRpyN3qkte1WC2p9jl5R0+CD9+tkYexYTR1SidFgB7XWd7Ol22X9mN1HAX+ufPOqSn Q37LC5KZUC4DZyqHzRCDkZuicbGIWVNmfjuM8gXGMe9zOaTdH22hyvRPCoD7CN75wxzF t+s4BhqComMaZ73yZNt8i3vxj7inmLX04Ip93vnPZ92rqGaKN6HnzFw7yfg2CSwquQ8J fhsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZnophKDgV0oOEOwpF2+7oOVh6Mf0Y4+pbYGzac0F7wVkZ5z5QY 6sCjx/FSIXvERQiHG6FCqfWP97p4R8l3axXyzi0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaIGehYAnSgKlz1UzMoeWf6iLDXnUB4wEimELuNzeHzJxjqg0J1HASVMcFNIn1PLW5Ckwesl5OuxD6gMnJz8ZU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:544:: with SMTP id 65mr248962oif.302.1549301459225; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 12:30:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Cc: Richard Barnes , Roman Danyliw , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000209449058114db1c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 17:31:03 -0000 --000000000000209449058114db1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will there be an interim for this topic? Thank you, Kathleen On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:15 PM Kathleen Moriarty < kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the very helpful message, Goran. A couple of comments inline. > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander < > goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> Hi Richard, Roman, all >> >> >> >> Thanks for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies fo= r >> a long email. >> >> >> >> *From: *Richard Barnes >> >> >> >> Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like >> what folks are asking for is either: >> >> >> >> 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE >> (e.g., IKE or TLS), or >> >> >> >> 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an >> existing AKE) >> >> >> >> G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points? >> >> >> >> Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email. >> >> >> >> It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual >> interim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument= . >> >> >> >> Agree. >> > > Anything to prevent further hold ups on this work would be appreciated. > > >> >> >> --Richard >> >> >> >> As requested in a previous email, here is a background. >> >> >> >> The work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and key >> exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) optimized >> for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied within the >> IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-securit= y), >> but also requested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specworks= , >> Open Connectivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of >> OSCORE motivating its use include: support for CoAP forward proxies, >> support for change of underlying transports including non-IP, low overhe= ad, >> low additional footprint and memory to existing CoAP implementations, >> support for multicast security, security for end-to-end REST. >> >> >> >> Given the large interest in OSCORE already before it has become an RFC w= e >> anticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see an interest = for >> OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the cellular air interf= ace >> control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not necessarily >> end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellular device. Or >> between an application server and a device behind a cellular gateway. >> Comparing just these two cases, the difference in capabilities of the >> devices can be significant which makes it difficult to point at some sor= t >> of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80=9D for benchmarking. >> >> >> >> In order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant in >> low bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restricted in RAM >> and ROM. Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, >> power consumption and battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is t= he >> reason for this being a commonly used metric. While it may be more >> difficult to compare memory and storage requirements, the ability to reu= se >> existing code is an important indication. If a device can support a CoAP >> stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc) it is expected to also be >> able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable that a device with Co= AP >> and OSCORE implemented should be able to support an additional AKE. >> Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR and COSE primitives from OSCORE the >> additional code for EDHOC can be very limited. >> >> >> >> From a security point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have >> agreed on a Master Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each >> other=E2=80=99s Sender IDs, and those must be different for a given Mast= er Secret. >> >> >> >> Now returning to the questions. >> >> >> >> 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE >> (e.g., IKE or TLS) >> >> >> >> Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed and >> verified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a mail t= o >> the secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 which cou= ld >> be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this: Do they w= ant >> to study the model themselves or should we ask the authors if they could >> present their work at the interim? >> >> >> >> 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an >> existing AKE) >> >> >> >> We have done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what >> once seemed like a reasonable question has turned out to be never ending >> exercise. I do not want to get into IETF archeology but for those who ha= ve >> not followed the discussion some data points could be relevant. >> >> >> >> Not long ago, the design of security protocols did not take into account >> constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message overhead >> could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1.2 records. Before this >> comparison it was believed that the record layer was performing well, th= en >> the difference in overhead was characterized as insignificant, and then >> finally a compact format was designed for DTLS 1.3. >> >> >> >> With EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key exchange can b= e >> reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to the current version of DTLS 1.= 3 >> (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believed that the >> TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in overhead = was >> characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has shifted to >> downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol. >> >> >> >> We are not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we welcom= e >> the more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to be an AKE >> for OSCORE optimized for constrained environments. As I remember, >> optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS 1= .3. >> Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way to go: One rea= son >> to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TL= S >> implementation would most likely not compare favorably in terms of code >> size and RAM. Adding code for compression or re-encoding of the messages >> would add to that. Re-specifying the protocol with the new encoding may >> require a new formal verification. To make a more compact code and >> processing may involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depending= on >> what is being signed. New implementations would be needed. >> >> >> >> We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that the >> burden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that claim to >> have a more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are prepared= to >> do the work to make that plausible and provide the numbers? To be clear:= if >> there is another key exchange protocol suitable for OSCORE which >> outperforms EDHOC in constrained characteristics and then we are very >> interested. >> > > I agree with Goran that they have jumped through enough hoops at this > point. However, if alternatives come forward, understanding their > timelines is also critical as not to hold up this work for any substantia= l > amount of time. > > >> >> And again, with the statements in this mail we neither want to belittle >> the considerable effort made on formal verification, nor claim that DTLS= is >> not fit for IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT securi= ty >> toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a hammer. >> > > The class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and having on= e > protocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not realistic from t= he > comparison numbers provided and the varying requirements in the IoT space= . > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > >> >> >> >> G=C3=B6ran >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >> > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000209449058114db1c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Will there be an interim for this topic?=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= br>
Thank you,
Kathleen

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:= 15 PM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Than= ks for the very helpful message, Goran.=C2=A0 A couple of comments inline.<= /div>
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 a= t 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Richard, Roman, all

=C2=A0

Thanks for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion.= Apologies for a long email.

=C2=A0

From: Richar= d Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>

<= /u>=C2=A0

Summ= ing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what folk= s are asking for is either:

<= /u>=C2=A0

  1. An analysis that= shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS), or

=C2=A0

2. A= n argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AK= E)

=C2=A0

G=C3= =B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points?

=C2=A0

Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to t= his later in this email.

<= /u>=C2=A0

It s= eems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual interim= time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Agree.


Anything to prevent further hold= ups on this work would be appreciated.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--Ri= chard

=C2=A0

As requested in a previous email, here is a background.

=C2=A0

The work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentic= ation and key exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security= ) optimized for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied wit= hin the IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-secur= ity), but also requested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specwo= rks, Open Connectivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of = OSCORE motivating its use include: support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of underlying transpo= rts including non-IP, low overhead, low additional footprint and memory to = existing CoAP implementations, support for multicast security, security for= end-to-end REST.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

Given the large interest in OSCORE already before it has be= come an RFC we anticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see = an interest for OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the cellul= ar air interface control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not = necessarily end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellular devi= ce. Or between an application server and a device behind a cellular gateway= . Comparing just these two cases, the difference in capabilities of the devices can be significant which mak= es it difficult to point at some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80= =9D for benchmarking.

=C2=A0

In order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be p= erformant in low bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restric= ted in RAM and ROM.=C2= =A0Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, power consumption a= nd battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is the reason for this bei= ng a commonly used metric. While it may be more difficult to compare memory= and storage requirements, the ability to reuse existing code is an important indication. If a device can support= a CoAP stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc) it is expected to als= o be able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable that a device with = CoAP and OSCORE implemented should be able to support an additional AKE. Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR a= nd COSE primitives from OSCORE the additional code for EDHOC can be very li= mited.

=C2=A0

From a security point of view OSCORE requires that the end= points have agreed on a Master Secret with a good amount of randomness, and= each other=E2=80=99s Sender IDs, and those must be different for a given M= aster Secret.

=C2=A0

Now returning to the questions.

<= /u>=C2=A0

  1. An analysis that= shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS)

=C2=A0

Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly= analysed and verified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman se= nt a mail to the secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 which could be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this:= Do they want to study the model themselves or should we ask the authors if= they could present their work at the interim?

=C2=A0

2. A= n argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AK= E)

=C2=A0

We have done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time n= ow, and what once seemed like a reasonable question has turned out to be nev= er ending exercise. I do not want to get into IETF archeology but for those who have not followed the discussion some data points could be relevant.

=C2=A0

Not long ago, the design of security protocols did not take= into account constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the messa= ge overhead could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1.2 records. Before this comparison it was believed that the record layer was performin= g well, then the difference in overhead was characterized as insignificant,= and then finally a compact format was designed for DTLS 1.3.=

=C2=A0

With EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key e= xchange can be reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to the current versio= n of DTLS 1.3 (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believ= ed that the TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in ov= erhead was characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has shift= ed to downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol.<= /span>

=C2=A0

We are not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just= as we welcome the more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed = to be an AKE for OSCORE optimized for constrained environments. As I rememb= er, optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS 1.3= . Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way to go: One reas= on to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TL= S implementation would most likely not compare favorably in terms of code size and RAM. Adding code for compr= ession or re-encoding of the messages would add to that. Re-specifying the = protocol with the new encoding may require a new formal verification. To ma= ke a more compact code and processing may involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depending on what is b= eing signed. New implementations would be needed.

=C2=A0

We think we have done our part o= f the comparison exercise and that the burden of proof should now be revers= ed. Could we ask those that claim to have a more performant key exchange pr= otocol for OSCORE and are prepared to do the work to make that plausible and provide the num= bers? To be clear: if there is anothe= r key exchange protocol suitable for OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC in cons= trained characteristics and then we are very interested.


I agree with Goran that th= ey have jumped through enough hoops at this point.=C2=A0 However, if altern= atives come forward, understanding their timelines is also critical as not = to hold up this work for any substantial amount of time.=C2=A0
=

= =C2=A0

And again= , with the statements in this mail we neither want to belittle the consider= able effort made on formal verification, nor claim that DTLS is not fit for= IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT security toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a ham= mer.


The= class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and having one pro= tocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not realistic from the co= mparison numbers provided and the varying requirements in the IoT space.

Best regards,
Kathleen

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

G=C3=B6ran

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--
Best regards,
Kathleen


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
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YXJjaC9FREhPQy9ibG9iL21hc3Rlci9kb2NzL05CJTIwSW9UJTIwcG93ZXIlMjBjb25zdW1wdGlv bi54bHN4DQpbNF0gTG9SYVdBTiBUaW1lLW9mLUFpciBjb21wYXJpc29uIEVESE9DLURUTFMgMS4z DQpodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vRXJpY3Nzb25SZXNlYXJjaC9FREhPQy9ibG9iL21hc3Rlci9k b2NzL0xvUmFXQU5fVG9BLnhsc3gNCls1XSBUaGUgTm9pc2UgUHJvdG9jb2wgRnJhbWV3b3JrIA0K aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ub2lzZXByb3RvY29sLm9yZy8NCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Feb 11 09:40:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B496130EA5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 09:40:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iKJ8-Gp3NUYn for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 09:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 816C4130EA1 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 09:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from delp.sei.cmu.edu (delp.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.31]) by taper.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1BHeUQ1019271 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 12:40:30 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 taper.sei.cmu.edu x1BHeUQ1019271 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1549906830; bh=3ArKjq1uA0Lp+q/LwVPLVSteLgtG+Az0CWe5xNIKK3Y=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=oxsQv5sBm/xG36rtylqDFvrlWZUprW6GZJrXo2syzU8QyiCNCIwz7oolvLsoEibrH 9+elPe82lyJh/iYk/NCwzhpF65RMfXBCwEHS9malgptvs6pbu149DlJBVSAiJoIoTY 8v65O4+i1A32or6cWnKzo0dBkQc2V1LYF/fUJT8E= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by delp.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1BHePhV034282 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 12:40:25 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 12:40:25 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for agenda items at IETF 104 Thread-Index: AdTCMI5iwmry0zeJQ9CQHNFgoFg/FA== Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:40:23 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BD424@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] Call for agenda items at IETF 104 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:40:33 -0000 Hello! SecDispatch will be meeting at IETF 104 (at a time yet to be determined). = If you would like time on the agenda, send your request to the mailing list= . Helpful items to include in your request (if known/applicable) are: (1) pointers to a draft(s) (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions (3) pointers to implementations (4) pointers to any other background materials (5) summarizing prior engagement with existing WGs (6) summarizing who would want to advance this work (7) desired next steps If needed, precedence will be given to documents that have demonstrated int= erest in the form of active drafts and list discussion. If you have questions, please reach out to the co-chairs. Regards, Roman and Richard From nobody Mon Feb 11 14:20:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431731277D2 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 14:20:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkw6eicaKTlr for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 14:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F2B1126D00 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 14:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from korb.sei.cmu.edu (korb.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.30]) by taper.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1BMKXSe029762 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:20:33 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 taper.sei.cmu.edu x1BMKXSe029762 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1549923633; bh=Qjl2uj5hy+fRyuN+0ZIQHuMT55k1BlGbioH0uv+AhRo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=IZiWIFcJDPIEDbROi1WPvWhzRuKwir7Yk8qgxjvo6NDCxEVzkt6EgVJHNdk9TU7gc CN92nYXRXCiLwKfsMR71EixsaDvTo5tO75Vdn3PEuY8RaA035PJjxcMivWPzhI8j+r rRbp+8r7we/5IxhtGANabUmoKqXoz1y3/WlJv+70= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by korb.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1BMKUqD023794 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:20:30 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:20:30 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Poll to choose the date of the Virtual Interim Meeting for EDHOC Thread-Index: AdTCV/bet0Eqr3haSq6r3OvrOGcqzw== Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 22:20:29 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE039@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] Poll to choose the date of the Virtual Interim Meeting for EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 22:20:36 -0000 Hello WG! In coordination with the ACE co-chairs, SECDISPATCH will have a virtual int= erim meeting focused on dispatching EDHOC [1]. Help suggest the best day f= or this virtual meeting during the week of March 4, 2019 by completing this= doodle poll -- https://doodle.com/poll/fevqfmn57rbb4rdg. Your input would be appreciated by Saturday, February 16, 2019. Regards, Roman and Richard [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/UollkQtwBu8TbTo9ANpnk= cmpBxQ From nobody Mon Feb 11 15:13:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED081286E7; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:13:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XCU_p_Xs9kc; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:13:20 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with ESMTP id x1BNDAEc026268; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:13:10 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:13:10 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: Richard Barnes , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , "ace@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= Thread-Topic: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC Thread-Index: AQHUou5Zx1xiDx+jgESY4I5hUyszWqWc++KAgAH8Z4CAFrLCAIAACQQAgAZMFFCAAYAHAIABkk0AgAAt2ICAESxAAIALC4iw Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:13:10 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125@marathon> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:13:23 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125marathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgS2F0aGxlZW4hDQoNClllcy4gIEEgZG9vZGxlIHBvbGwgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lIHRoZSBtb3N0 IGFncmVlYWJsZSB0aW1lIHRoZSB3ZWVrIG9mIE1hcmNoIDQgd2FzIGp1c3Qgc2VudDoNCg0KaHR0 cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL21zZy9zZWNkaXNwYXRjaC9LVTNTV1dfNFVl SjlKTUg5YWJtemFLZVhYZ2MNCg0KUm9tYW4NCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBLYXRobGVlbiBNb3JpYXJ0eSBb bWFpbHRvOmthdGhsZWVuLm1vcmlhcnR5LmlldGZAZ21haWwuY29tXQ0KU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBG 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[209.6.124.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y32sm12756984qth.3.2019.02.11.16.29.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Feb 2019 16:29:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1B8AF4FF-E3C6-44AC-8A28-41B38D83F961 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125@marathon> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 19:29:53 -0500 Cc: Richard Barnes , John Mattsson , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Francesca Palombini , "ace@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <284CB223-291D-45EF-A2B7-D49BE876AF94@gmail.com> References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125@marathon> To: Roman Danyliw Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 00:30:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1B8AF4FF-E3C6-44AC-8A28-41B38D83F961 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I=E2=80=99m reading it correctly, it looks like I will be speaking at RSA= during that time slot. Can the recording be posted? It=E2=80=99s a tough w= eek for anyone attending, so I suspect attendance will be impacted. Thank you, Kathleen=20 Sent from my mobile device > On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote: >=20 > Hi Kathleen! > =20 > Yes. A doodle poll to determine the most agreeable time the week of March= 4 was just sent: > =20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/KU3SWW_4UeJ9JMH9abmzaKeX= Xgc > =20 > Roman > =20 > =20 > From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 12:30 PM > To: G=C3=B6ran Selander > Cc: Richard Barnes ; Roman Danyliw ; John Mattss= on ; secdispatch@ietf.org; Francesca Palombini <= francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>; ace@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC > =20 > Will there be an interim for this topic? =20 > =20 > Thank you, > Kathleen > =20 > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:15 PM Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Thanks for the very helpful message, Goran. A couple of comments inline. > =20 > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > Hi Richard, Roman, all > =20 > Thanks for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies for a= long email. >=20 > =20 > From: Richard Barnes >=20 > =20 > Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what= folks are asking for is either: > =20 > 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE= (e.g., IKE or TLS), or > =20 > 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existi= ng AKE) > =20 > G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points? > =20 > Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email. > =20 > It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual in= terim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument. > =20 > Agree. > =20 > Anything to prevent further hold ups on this work would be appreciated. > =20 > =20 > --Richard > =20 > As requested in a previous email, here is a background. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and key e= xchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) optimized for c= onstrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied within the IETF, e.g.= in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security), but also r= equested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specworks, Open Connect= ivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of OSCORE motivating i= ts use include: support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of unde= rlying transports including non-IP, low overhead, low additional footprint a= nd memory to existing CoAP implementations, support for multicast security, s= ecurity for end-to-end REST.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Given the large interest in OSCORE already before it has become an RFC we a= nticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see an interest for O= SCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the cellular air interface c= ontrol channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not necessarily end-t= o-end IP between an application server and a cellular device. Or between an a= pplication server and a device behind a cellular gateway. Comparing just the= se two cases, the difference in capabilities of the devices can be significa= nt which makes it difficult to point at some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devi= ces=E2=80=9D for benchmarking. >=20 > =20 >=20 > In order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant in lo= w bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restricted in RAM and R= OM. Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, power con= sumption and battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is the reason for= this being a commonly used metric. While it may be more difficult to compar= e memory and storage requirements, the ability to reuse existing code is an i= mportant indication. If a device can support a CoAP stack (in the sense of m= emory and flash, etc) it is expected to also be able to support OSCORE. Simi= larly, it is desirable that a device with CoAP and OSCORE implemented should= be able to support an additional AKE. Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR an= d COSE primitives from OSCORE the additional code for EDHOC can be very limi= ted. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =46rom a security point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have ag= reed on a Master Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each other=E2=80= =99s Sender IDs, and those must be different for a given Master Secret. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Now returning to the questions. >=20 > =20 > 1. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE= (e.g., IKE or TLS) > =20 > Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed and v= erified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a mail to the= secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 which could be u= sed as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this: Do they want to s= tudy the model themselves or should we ask the authors if they could present= their work at the interim? >=20 > =20 > 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existi= ng AKE) > =20 >=20 > We have done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what onc= e seemed like a reasonable question has turned out to be never ending exerci= se. I do not want to get into IETF archeology but for those who have not fol= lowed the discussion some data points could be relevant. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Not long ago, the design of security protocols did not take into account c= onstrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message overhead coul= d be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1.2 records. Before this compari= son it was believed that the record layer was performing well, then the diff= erence in overhead was characterized as insignificant, and then finally a co= mpact format was designed for DTLS 1.3. >=20 > =20 >=20 > With EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key exchange can be r= educed with up to a factor 4 compared to the current version of DTLS 1.3 (se= e Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believed that the TLS/DT= LS handshake was performing well, then the difference in overhead was charac= terized as insignificant, and now the discussion has shifted to downsizing t= he TLS handshake or other protocol. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We are not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we welcome t= he more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to be an AKE for O= SCORE optimized for constrained environments. As I remember, optimizing for m= essage overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS 1.3. Reverting those d= esign decisions seems like the wrong way to go: One reason to use TLS would b= e to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TLS implementation would= most likely not compare favorably in terms of code size and RAM. Adding cod= e for compression or re-encoding of the messages would add to that. Re-speci= fying the protocol with the new encoding may require a new formal verificati= on. To make a more compact code and processing may involve two incompatible m= essage formats of TLS depending on what is being signed. New implementations= would be needed. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that the bur= den of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that claim to have a= more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are prepared to do the= work to make that plausible and provide the numbers? To be clear: if there i= s another key exchange protocol suitable for OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC i= n constrained characteristics and then we are very interested. > =20 > I agree with Goran that they have jumped through enough hoops at this poin= t. However, if alternatives come forward, understanding their timelines is a= lso critical as not to hold up this work for any substantial amount of time.= =20 > =20 > =20 > And again, with the statements in this mail we neither want to belittle th= e considerable effort made on formal verification, nor claim that DTLS is no= t fit for IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT security too= lbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a hammer. > =20 > The class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and having one= protocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not realistic from the= comparison numbers provided and the varying requirements in the IoT space. > =20 > Best regards, > Kathleen > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > G=C3=B6ran >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 > =20 > -- > =20 > Best regards, > Kathleen >=20 > =20 > -- > =20 > Best regards, > Kathleen --Apple-Mail-1B8AF4FF-E3C6-44AC-8A28-41B38D83F961 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I=E2=80=99m reading it correctly, it loo= ks like I will be speaking at RSA during that time slot.  Can the recor= ding be posted?  It=E2=80=99s a tough week for anyone attending, so I s= uspect attendance will be impacted.

Thank you,
= Kathleen 

Sent from my mobile dev= ice

On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:

Hi Kathleen!

 

Yes.  A doodle poll to determine t= he most agreeable time the week of March 4 was just sent:<= /p>

 

https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/secdispatch/KU3SWW_4UeJ9JMH9abmzaKeXXgc

 

Roman

 

 

From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.co= m]
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 12:30 PM
To: G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
Cc: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx&g= t;; Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>; J= ohn Mattsson <john.mattsson= @ericsson.com>; secdispatch@i= etf.org; Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>; ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC

 

Will there be an interim for this topic?  <= o:p>

 

Thank you,

Kathleen

 

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:15 PM Kathleen Moriarty <= ;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@= gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the very helpful message, Goran.  A c= ouple of comments inline.

 

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander &= lt;goran.se= lander@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Richard, Roman, all

 

Thanks for k= ind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies for a long email.<= /span>

 

From: = Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>

 

Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what f= olks are asking for is either:

 

1= .   &n= bsp;  An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equi= valent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS), or

 

2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing= AKE)

 

G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points?

 

Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email.

 

It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of virtual inte= rim time to help the group understand one of those lines of argument.

 

Agree.

 

Anything to prevent further hold ups on this work wou= ld be appreciated.

 

 

--Richard

 

As requeste= d in a previous email, here is a background.

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

The work on= EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and key exchange proto= col for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) optimized for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied withi= n the IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-secur= ity), but also requested by other SDOs and industry fora such as OMA Specwor= ks, Open Connectivity Foundation and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of OSCORE motivating its use include:= support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of underlying transpor= ts including non-IP, low overhead, low additional footprint and memory to ex= isting CoAP implementations, support for multicast security, security for end-to-end REST. 

 

Given the l= arge interest in OSCORE already before it has become an RFC we anticipate a w= ide range of deployments. For example, we see an interest for OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the= cellular air interface control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, b= ut not necessarily end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellula= r device. Or between an application server and a device behind a cellular gateway. Comparing just these two cas= es, the difference in capabilities of the devices can be significant which m= akes it difficult to point at some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80=9D= for benchmarking.

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

In order to= support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant in low bandwidth d= eployments with battery powered devices restricted in RAM and ROM. Message sizes and r= ound trips have a direct impact on latency, power consumption and battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is the r= eason for this being a commonly used metric. While it may be more difficult t= o compare memory and storage requirements, the ability to reuse existing cod= e is an important indication. If a device can support a CoAP stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc= ) it is expected to also be able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirab= le that a device with CoAP and OSCORE implemented should be able to support a= n additional AKE. Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR and COSE primitives from OSCORE the additional code f= or EDHOC can be very limited.

=

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

=46rom a= security point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have agreed on a M= aster Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each other=E2=80=99s Send= er IDs, and those must be different for a given Master Secret.

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

Now ret= urning to the questions.

 

1= .   &n= bsp;  An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equi= valent to an existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS)

 

Considering= EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed and verified again= st all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a mail to the secdispatch list referencing a paper present= ed at SSR 2018 which could be used as a starting point. How do folks want to= digest this: Do they want to study the model themselves or should we ask th= e authors if they could present their work at the interim?

 

2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing= AKE)

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

We have= done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what once seemed like= a reasonable question has turned out to be never ending exercise. I do not want to get into IETF archeology b= ut for those who have not followed the discussion some data points could be r= elevant.

 

Not long ag= o, the design of security protocols did not take into account constrained Io= T devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message overhead could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1= .2 records. Before this comparison it was believed that the record layer was= performing well, then the difference in overhead was characterized as insig= nificant, and then finally a compact format was designed for DTLS 1.3.

 

With EDHOC w= e showed that the message overhead of the key exchange can be reduced with u= p to a factor 4 compared to the current version of DTLS 1.3 (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise= it was believed that the TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the d= ifference in overhead was characterized as insignificant, and now the discus= sion has shifted to downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol.

 

We are not a= gainst optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we welcome the more optim= al DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to be an AKE for OSCORE optimized for constrained environments= . As I remember, optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-require= ment of TLS 1.3. Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way t= o go: One reason to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But existing TLS implementation wou= ld most likely not compare favorably in terms of code size and RAM. Adding c= ode for compression or re-encoding of the messages would add to that. Re-spe= cifying the protocol with the new encoding may require a new formal verification. To make a more compact c= ode and processing may involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depen= ding on what is being signed. New implementations would be needed.

 

We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that the b= urden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that claim to have a more performant key exchange protoc= ol for OSCORE and are prepared to do the work to make that plausible and pro= vide the numbers? To be clear: if there is another key exchange protocol= suitable for OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC in constrained characteristics a= nd then we are very interested.

 

I agree with Goran that they have jumped through enou= gh hoops at this point.  However, if alternatives come forward, underst= anding their timelines is also critical as not to hold up this work for any s= ubstantial amount of time. 

 

 

And again, with the statements in this m= ail we neither want to belittle the considerable effort made on formal verif= ication, nor claim that DTLS is not fit for IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in our IoT security tool= box, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a hammer.

 

The class of IoT device seems to be the critical poin= t here and having one protocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but n= ot realistic from the comparison numbers provided and the varying requiremen= ts in the IoT space.

 

Best regards,

Kathleen

 

 

 

G=C3=B6ran<= /span>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

 <= span lang=3D"SV">

 

 

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


 

--

 

Best regards,

Kathleen


 

--

 

Best regards,

Kathleen

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([2605:a601:a028:986:ddbc:c9d:3ba3:3cbb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 77sm4356726ywr.19.2019.02.11.17.42.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:42:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <59F7FFB0-4158-4EC4-9A5B-1EBE41AF3CE4@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BA9F15D0-17A4-4B91-B5B3-F1B823B8A0A3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:42:14 -0700 In-Reply-To: <284CB223-291D-45EF-A2B7-D49BE876AF94@gmail.com> Cc: Roman Danyliw , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , Richard Barnes , "ace@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , Francesca Palombini , John Mattsson To: Kathleen Moriarty References: <79FD6563-8ADA-4D73-B8D5-C3D70604CD76@gmail.com> <47F03C99-68C1-4ADB-873D-F01987D66849@ipv.sx> <20190118172714.GJ81907@kduck.mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0185795C45@marathon> <05C8AB73-EFD1-4AC8-A795-D3624153F4D2@ericsson.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE125@marathon> <284CB223-291D-45EF-A2B7-D49BE876AF94@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 01:42:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BA9F15D0-17A4-4B91-B5B3-F1B823B8A0A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, doing anything during the week of RSA is a significant challenge.=20= Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 11, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Kathleen Moriarty = wrote: >=20 > If I=E2=80=99m reading it correctly, it looks like I will be speaking = at RSA during that time slot. Can the recording be posted? It=E2=80=99s = a tough week for anyone attending, so I suspect attendance will be = impacted. >=20 > Thank you, > Kathleen=20 >=20 > Sent from my mobile device >=20 > On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Roman Danyliw > wrote: >=20 >> Hi Kathleen! >> =20 >> Yes. A doodle poll to determine the most agreeable time the week of = March 4 was just sent: >> =20 >> = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/KU3SWW_4UeJ9JMH9abmzaKeX= Xgc = >> =20 >> Roman >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com = ]=20 >> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 12:30 PM >> To: G=C3=B6ran Selander > >> Cc: Richard Barnes >; Roman Danyliw = >; John Mattsson = >; = secdispatch@ietf.org ; Francesca Palombini = >; ace@ietf.org = >> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] EDHOC >> =20 >> Will there be an interim for this topic? =20 >> =20 >> Thank you, >> Kathleen >> =20 >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:15 PM Kathleen Moriarty = > wrote: >> Thanks for the very helpful message, Goran. A couple of comments = inline. >> =20 >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander = > = wrote: >> Hi Richard, Roman, all >> =20 >> Thanks for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies = for a long email. >>=20 >> =20 >> From: Richard Barnes > >>=20 >> =20 >> Summing up where I believe the conversation stands now, it seems like = what folks are asking for is either: >> =20 >> 1.. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an = existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS), or >> =20 >> 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an = existing AKE) >> =20 >> G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you have thoughts on those points? >> =20 >> Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email. >> =20 >> It seems like it could be a productive use of an hour or two of = virtual interim time to help the group understand one of those lines of = argument. >> =20 >> Agree. >> =20 >> Anything to prevent further hold ups on this work would be = appreciated. >> =20 >> =20 >> --Richard >> =20 >> As requested in a previous email, here is a background. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and = key exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) = optimized for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied = within the IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security = (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security), but also requested by other SDOs = and industry fora such as OMA Specworks, Open Connectivity Foundation = and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of OSCORE motivating its use = include: support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of = underlying transports including non-IP, low overhead, low additional = footprint and memory to existing CoAP implementations, support for = multicast security, security for end-to-end REST.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Given the large interest in OSCORE already before it has become an = RFC we anticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see an = interest for OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the = cellular air interface control channel, where we can have end-to-end = CoAP, but not necessarily end-to-end IP between an application server = and a cellular device. Or between an application server and a device = behind a cellular gateway. Comparing just these two cases, the = difference in capabilities of the devices can be significant which makes = it difficult to point at some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80=9D = for benchmarking. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> In order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant = in low bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restricted in = RAM and ROM. Message sizes and round trips have a direct impact on = latency, power consumption and battery lifetime, and can be calculated = which is the reason for this being a commonly used metric. While it may = be more difficult to compare memory and storage requirements, the = ability to reuse existing code is an important indication. If a device = can support a CoAP stack (in the sense of memory and flash, etc) it is = expected to also be able to support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable = that a device with CoAP and OSCORE implemented should be able to support = an additional AKE. Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR and COSE = primitives from OSCORE the additional code for EDHOC can be very = limited. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =46rom a security point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints = have agreed on a Master Secret with a good amount of randomness, and = each other=E2=80=99s Sender IDs, and those must be different for a given = Master Secret. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Now returning to the questions. >>=20 >> =20 >> 1.. An analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an = existing AKE (e.g., IKE or TLS) >> =20 >> Considering EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed = and verified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a = mail to the secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 = which could be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest = this: Do they want to study the model themselves or should we ask the = authors if they could present their work at the interim?=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> 2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an = existing AKE) >> =20 >>=20 >> We have done this comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and = what once seemed like a reasonable question has turned out to be never = ending exercise. I do not want to get into IETF archeology but for those = who have not followed the discussion some data points could be relevant. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Not long ago, the design of security protocols did not take into = account constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message = overhead could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1..2 records. = Before this comparison it was believed that the record layer was = performing well, then the difference in overhead was characterized as = insignificant, and then finally a compact format was designed for DTLS = 1.3. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> With EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key exchange = can be reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to the current version of = DTLS 1.3 (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believed = that the TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in = overhead was characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has = shifted to downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> We are not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we = welcome the more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to = be an AKE for OSCORE optimized for constrained environments.. As I = remember, optimizing for message overhead was an explicit = non-requirement of TLS 1.3. Reverting those design decisions seems like = the wrong way to go: One reason to use TLS would be to reuse an existing = implementation. But existing TLS implementation would most likely not = compare favorably in terms of code size and RAM. Adding code for = compression or re-encoding of the messages would add to that. = Re-specifying the protocol with the new encoding may require a new = formal verification. To make a more compact code and processing may = involve two incompatible message formats of TLS depending on what is = being signed. New implementations would be needed. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> We think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that = the burden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that = claim to have a more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are = prepared to do the work to make that plausible and provide the numbers? = To be clear: if there is another key exchange protocol suitable for = OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC in constrained characteristics and then = we are very interested. >> =20 >> I agree with Goran that they have jumped through enough hoops at this = point. However, if alternatives come forward, understanding their = timelines is also critical as not to hold up this work for any = substantial amount of time.=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> And again, with the statements in this mail we neither want to = belittle the considerable effort made on formal verification, nor claim = that DTLS is not fit for IoT deployments. It is an important hammer in = our IoT security toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t need a = hammer. >> =20 >> The class of IoT device seems to be the critical point here and = having one protocol that can meet all needs is a nice goal, but not = realistic from the comparison numbers provided and the varying = requirements in the IoT space. >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> G=C3=B6ran >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace = >>=20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >>=20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch --Apple-Mail=_BA9F15D0-17A4-4B91-B5B3-F1B823B8A0A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Yes, = doing anything during the week of RSA is a significant = challenge. 


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 11, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

If I=E2=80=99m reading it = correctly, it looks like I will be speaking at RSA during that time = slot.  Can the recording be posted?  It=E2=80=99s a tough week = for anyone attending, so I suspect attendance will be = impacted.

Thank you,
Kathleen 

Sent from my mobile device

On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:

Hi Kathleen!
 
Yes.  A doodle poll to determine the most agreeable time = the week of March 4 was just sent:
 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/KU3SWW_4UeJ9J= MH9abmzaKeXXgc
 
Roman
 
 
From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 = 12:30 PM
To: G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
Cc: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>; Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>; John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>; secdispatch@ietf.org; = Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>; ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Secdispatch] = EDHOC
 
Will there = be an interim for this topic?  
 
Thank you,
Kathleen
 
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at = 2:15 PM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the very helpful message, = Goran.  A couple of comments inline.
 
On Thu, Jan = 24, 2019 at 11:31 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi Richard, Roman, all
 

Thanks = for kind welcome and for progressing the discussion. Apologies for a = long email.

 

From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>

 
Summing up where I = believe the conversation stands now, it seems like what folks are asking = for is either:
 
1..      An = analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (e.g., = IKE or TLS), or
 
2. An argument that a new AKE is = necessary (vs. a re-encoding of an existing AKE)
 
G=C3=B6ran et al: Do you = have thoughts on those points?
 
Yes. I=E2=80=99ll get back to this later in this email.
 
It seems like it could be a productive = use of an hour or two of virtual interim time to help the group = understand one of those lines of argument.
 
Agree.
 
Anything to prevent further hold ups on = this work would be appreciated.
 
 
--Richard
 

As = requested in a previous email, here is a background.

 

The = work on EDHOC is motivated by the need for an authentication and key = exchange protocol for OSCORE (draft-ietf-core-object-security) optimized = for constrained-node networks (RFC 7228). OSCORE is applied within the = IETF, e.g. in 6TiSCH minimal security = (draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security), but also requested by other SDOs = and industry fora such as OMA Specworks, Open Connectivity Foundation = and Fairhair Alliance. The properties of OSCORE motivating its use = include: support for CoAP forward proxies, support for change of = underlying transports including non-IP, low overhead, low additional = footprint and memory to existing CoAP implementations, support for = multicast security, security for end-to-end REST. 

 

Given = the large interest in OSCORE already before it has become an RFC we = anticipate a wide range of deployments. For example, we see an interest = for OSCORE in Cellular IoT with traffic running over the cellular air = interface control channel, where we can have end-to-end CoAP, but not = necessarily end-to-end IP between an application server and a cellular = device. Or between an application server and a device behind a cellular = gateway. Comparing just these two cases, the difference in capabilities = of the devices can be significant which makes it difficult to point at = some sort of =E2=80=9Creference devices=E2=80=9D for = benchmarking.

 

In = order to support the low end use cases the AKE must be performant in low = bandwidth deployments with battery powered devices restricted in RAM and = ROM. Message = sizes and round trips have a direct impact on latency, power consumption = and battery lifetime, and can be calculated which is the reason for this = being a commonly used metric. While it may be more difficult to compare = memory and storage requirements, the ability to reuse existing code is = an important indication. If a device can support a CoAP stack (in the = sense of memory and flash, etc) it is expected to also be able to = support OSCORE. Similarly, it is desirable that a device with CoAP and = OSCORE implemented should be able to support an additional AKE. = Considering that EDHOC reuses CBOR and COSE primitives from OSCORE the = additional code for EDHOC can be very limited.

 

=46rom a security = point of view OSCORE requires that the endpoints have agreed on a Master = Secret with a good amount of randomness, and each other=E2=80=99s Sender = IDs, and those must be different for a given Master Secret.

 

Now returning to the = questions.

 
1..      An = analysis that shows that EDHOC is equivalent to an existing AKE (e.g., = IKE or TLS)
 

Consider= ing EDHOC is a new protocol it should be thoroughly analysed and = verified against all currently known issues of AKEs. Roman sent a mail = to the secdispatch list referencing a paper presented at SSR 2018 which = could be used as a starting point. How do folks want to digest this: Do = they want to study the model themselves or should we ask the authors if = they could present their work at the interim? 

 
2. An argument that a new AKE is necessary (vs. a = re-encoding of an existing AKE)

 

We have done this = comparison with TLS/DTLS for some time now, and what once seemed like a reasonable = question has turned out to be never ending exercise. I do not want to = get into IETF archeology but for those who have not followed the = discussion some data points could be relevant.

 

Not = long ago, the design of security protocols did not take into account = constrained IoT devices. With OSCORE we showed that the message overhead = could be reduced by a factor 3 compared to DTLS 1..2 records. Before = this comparison it was believed that the record layer was performing = well, then the difference in overhead was characterized as = insignificant, and then finally a compact format was designed for DTLS = 1.3.

 

With = EDHOC we showed that the message overhead of the key exchange can be = reduced with up to a factor 4 compared to the current version of DTLS = 1.3 (see Appendix E in EDHOC). Before this exercise it was believed that = the TLS/DTLS handshake was performing well, then the difference in = overhead was characterized as insignificant, and now the discussion has = shifted to downsizing the TLS handshake or other protocol.

 

We are = not against optimizations to the TLS handshake, just as we welcome the = more optimal DTLS 1.3 records. But TLS was not designed to be an AKE for = OSCORE optimized for constrained environments.. As I remember, = optimizing for message overhead was an explicit non-requirement of TLS = 1.3. Reverting those design decisions seems like the wrong way to go: = One reason to use TLS would be to reuse an existing implementation. But = existing TLS implementation would most likely not compare favorably in = terms of code size and RAM. Adding code for compression or re-encoding = of the messages would add to that. Re-specifying the protocol with the = new encoding may require a new formal verification. To make a more = compact code and processing may involve two incompatible message formats = of TLS depending on what is being signed. New implementations would be = needed.

 

We = think we have done our part of the comparison exercise and that the = burden of proof should now be reversed. Could we ask those that claim to = have a more performant key exchange protocol for OSCORE and are prepared = to do the work to make that plausible and provide the numbers? To be = clear: if there is another key exchange protocol suitable = for OSCORE which outperforms EDHOC in constrained characteristics and = then we are very interested.
 
I agree with Goran that they have jumped = through enough hoops at this point.  However, if alternatives come = forward, understanding their timelines is also critical as not to hold = up this work for any substantial amount of time. 
 
 
And again, with the statements in this mail we neither want = to belittle the considerable effort made on formal verification, nor = claim that DTLS is not fit for IoT deployments. It is an important = hammer in our IoT security toolbox, but at the moment we don=E2=80=99t = need a hammer.
 
The class of IoT device seems to be the = critical point here and having one protocol that can meet all needs is a = nice goal, but not realistic from the comparison numbers provided and = the varying requirements in the IoT space.
 
Best = regards,
Kathleen
 
 

 

G=C3=B6r= an

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

 
-- 
 
Best regards,
Kathleen

 
-- 
 
Best regards,
Kathleen
_______________________________________________
Secdispatch mailing = list
Secdispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_BA9F15D0-17A4-4B91-B5B3-F1B823B8A0A3-- From nobody Mon Feb 11 18:17:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B3D127AC2 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:17:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=VOoKNoew; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=MEpNMSLP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pFG0FrMi0BT5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E6831276D0 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 18:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66ED30FA for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 21:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 Feb 2019 21:16:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:in-reply-to:references:subject; s=fm1; bh=IPf nytb4YoAqBs5UV2jiBNxkbyNVRY+Pmc4qEDSsOvo=; b=VOoKNoewYm4kkXsaNJT 8hHwKsPOJHkqCcjJNVnEJ39jT3mdhRGVJyJc7pPU/Nr2HMY4POp/F4j02fmvjARF umt4KwNsc/6zuZ2F/ZQhcNSRiCGhOonYb5SxbiNamoKMnAV3JlUhxSi/kd1Sx0mg AEPztHqYD27TRGE8uy8ingPXHn14493iYGblPGKktsommJHSKc9gwlx6LoGv8FsD rYHbyIWEHUlTq/nR22+fhzNA17AaJnHu+mjWxrJNXZfj5GR8oQPYh/LXX5ZI/oJd LmCqhZVmTTDOhLrOLvPrw6EDWZUX9y5JX3H85AVp5TWfH9OmN6CKRpinlPWEJBrc ZIA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=IPfnytb4YoAqBs5UV2jiBNxkbyNVRY+Pmc4qEDSsO vo=; b=MEpNMSLPSvfAVAhj77jbK7o6FnDEt9tH6n/tBoL5h7rRvVvg3aRyuaqG6 rNhrzeq3gxQGklYfNpdJrJxLIWObpcLQpbjLS9kAySuQ8AlEPXpSYIGpUU1gAGkq EjyEpNzpVlBJpZy2nOKbSVQvpPQDtuLP/elezTafUe2kUMynyF+nT5QIgiShXqJR LcreS4XTt0Dfpm3GS0g0/ci06iQo332YTEzcoQGH7MwPJMHuJHYHw0QilWjAmbcR IUJx7zjydbR6m+zegv/89KeZ1iFWxAQNgKOYkua53rnxrUrELdkFdp+tEuP7ablg AoyvJ3hfKW38hdRBQj7A5N/uOC6qg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtledruddttddggeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfquhhtnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucef tddtnecuogetfeejfedqtdegucdlhedtmdenucfjughrpefkhffvggfgtgfoffgjfhfuse htjeertdertdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepfihikhhiphgvughirgdrohhrgh dpughoohgulhgvrdgtohhmnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigv nhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 64DFA9E54B; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 21:16:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1549937817.2896771.1656015096.02BACCC8@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Martin Thomson To: secdispatch@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-950b8783 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:16:57 +1100 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE039@marathon> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857BE039@marathon> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Poll to choose the date of the Virtual Interim Meeting for EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 02:17:01 -0000 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, at 09:20, Roman Danyliw wrote: > In coordination with the ACE co-chairs, SECDISPATCH will have a virtual > interim meeting focused on dispatching EDHOC [1]. Help suggest the best > day for this virtual meeting during the week of March 4, 2019 by > completing this doodle poll -- https://doodle.com/poll/fevqfmn57rbb4rdg. I appreciate the difficulties, but a choice between 2am and 3:30am is not a choice[1]. 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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZrMoY3cS_buV for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AAF813105F for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id u16so11165873otk.8 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:42:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=17kuvZihby0MrPSt/338EJr7gD/hQzoDiDA3w0peo2w=; b=Z5NLHFA//iKzafYPRBXPb/7PFbtm1fTI+UIEHpc8SNydqZBSFdThVZ9JPNbtu4Cusn 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYt8X8Jcb6VTl2Q2TvVhFOmCILGsZKqZ4kiz2n6fyC3zh75pVGUnlPNaTzakxyt0nL8xBi0HirjznBpZ1A5eQM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4911:: with SMTP id w17mr2739121oia.36.1550158945352; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:42:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 07:42:09 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "secdispatch@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048948f0581dc81f7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:42:31 -0000 --00000000000048948f0581dc81f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G=C3=B6ran: When these metrics talk about DTLS 1.3, do they mean that proto= col directly, unmodified? One alternative approach people have had in mind is the idea of re-encoding / profiling down DTLS so that although it is syntactically different and maybe has fewer options, it encodes the same underlying AKE. Has that path has been explored? On the one hand, if it succeeds in slimming down DTLS to an acceptable point, it would obviate the need for a whole bunch of new analysis. On the other hand, if it fails, then it should highlight the specific things EDHOC has done differently, so that analysis can be focused on those things. Thanks, --Richard On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 10:41 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > Hi Hannes, secdispatch, and ace, > > (It seems Hannes original mail only went to secdispatch.) > > Apologies for a long mail, and late response. I had to ask some people fo= r > help with calculations, see end of this mail. > > =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-25, 15:15, "Secdispatch on behalf of Hannes Tschofeni= g" < > secdispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> > wrote: > > Fwd to SecDispatch since it was only posted on the SecDir list > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannes Tschofenig > Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 14:07 > To: Hannes Tschofenig ; Jim Schaad < > ietf@augustcellars.com>; secdir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports > > A minor follow-up: I mentioned that I am aware of a company using the > energy scavenging devices and it turns out that this information is > actually public and there is even a short video on YouTube. The company w= e > worked with is called Alphatronics and here is the video: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJHpJV_CPYb4 > > As you can hear in the video we have been using our Mbed OS together > with our device management solution (LwM2M with DTLS and CoAP) for these > types of devices. > > [GS] Nice application of LwM2M. The showcased device didn't seem very > constrained though, ARM Cortex M4? > > -----Original Message----- > From: secdir On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig > Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 13:52 > To: Jim Schaad ; secdir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports > > > [Hannes] what we are doing here is making an optimization. For some > (unknown reason) we have focused our attention to the over-the-wire > transmission overhead (not code size, RAM utilization, or developer > usability*). > > [GS] Exactly my point, it is not enough with reducing transmission > overhead. We should also look at additional memory, flash, and > configuration effort. These parameters are of course implementation > dependent but can to some extent be inferred by bulk of specification and > what pre-existing code can be reused. > > [Hannes] We are doing this optimization mostly based on information > about what other people tell us rather than based on our experience. The > problem is that we have too few people with hands-on knowledge and/or > deployment experience and if they have that experience they may not like = to > talk about it. So, we are stepping around in the dark and mostly perceive= d > problems. > > [GS] I don't think this rhetoric is very helpful. Who are "us"? The > co-workers you quote below, are they "us" or the "other people"? The peop= le > active in 6tisch, lpwan or 6lo who are supporting the work on an optimize= d > key exchange, are they "us" or the "other people"? > > > [Hannes] Having said that I would like to provide a few remarks to > your list below: > > [Jim] 1. Low-power devices that either are battery based or scavenge > power, these devices pay a power penalty for every byte of data sent and > thus have a desire for the smallest messages possible. > > [Hannes] Low power is a very complex topic since it is a system issue > and boiling it down to the transmission overhead of every byte is an > oversimplification. You are making certain assumptions of how power > consumption of radio technologies work, which will be hard to verify. I > have been working on power measurements recently (but only focused on pow= er > measurements of crypto, see > https://community.arm.com/arm-research/b/articles/posts/testing-crypto-pe= rformance-and-power-consumption). > > > [GS] These kind of power measurements of crypto are part of the > explanation for why transmission overhead is important to reduce. > Optimizations and hardware support make the crypto contribution to power > consumption possible to handle, so that there is no reason to deviate fro= m > the use of current best practice crypto in security protocols even for > constrained devices. The energy cost for transmission, however, is a > strongly coupled to the laws of physics which sets a limit for how much > they can be optimized. > > [Hannes] I doubt that many people on this list nor in the IETF have a lot > of experience in this field to use this as a basic for an optimization. > > [GS] There are people in 6tisch, lpwan and 6lo who knows about power > consumption and constrained characteristics. Some of them were supporting > EDHOC in ACE when you were chair. > > [Hannes] My co-workers, who are active in this space, tell me that ther= e > is nothing like a "per byte" linear relationship (for small quantities of > data) in terms of energy cost. Obviously if you trigger "an additional > transmission", which requires you to ramp up a PLL, turn on radio > amplifiers, send lengthy preambles etc then the incremental cost of sendi= ng > 64 bytes in that packet vs 16 bytes might be immeasurable small. The > critical thing appears to be how long the RF amplifiers are powered on. > Hence, you will often see publications that tell you that waiting for > incoming packets is actually the most expensive task (in terms of power > consumption). > > [GS] Energy consumption generally increases with message overhead in > wireless systems. This function is different for different radio > technologies, data rates, etc. Even if we pick a certain technology like > 6tisch, LoRaWAN or NB-IoT, events like packet loss and retransmission > impacts the result. So indeed, this is complicated, but we can still make > general claims as well as estimates of particular technologies. I asked a > colleague to make some power consumption estimates for NB-IoT devices. > NB-IoT is licensed spectrum, which implies that the devices are allowed t= o > transmit at a higher power compared to unlicensed spectrum. It also means > that the application provider in general does not control how good the > coverage is, since that depends on location of base station and > environment. A comparison [3] between DTLS 1.3 and EDHOC is given at the > end of this mail, but just because you mentioned the incremental cost of = a > device sending 64 vs 16 bytes, the difference is indeed measurable: 992 m= J > vs 479 mJ, i.e. half a Joule of difference in a case of low coverage (see > [3]). > > [GS]: About cost for listening: there are different techniques for > decreasing time to listen, like time slots, DRX etc. These are examples o= f > where the radio guys can be innovative and make optimizations, in contras= t > to transmission overhead for security where they just have to accept what > the security people decided. > > [Jim] 2. CoAP over SMS: SMS has a 140 byte packet size. There are tw= o > approaches for dealing with packets of larger than 140 bytes: 1) There i= s > a method of appending multiple packets together to form a single larger > packet. 2) You can use CoAP blockwise transfer. Using CoAP blockwise > would result in 128 byte packets for the underlying transfer assuming tha= t > only 12 bytes are needed for the CoAP header itself. > > [Hannes] It turns out that CoAP over SMS is rarely used for deliverin= g > data of IP-based devices since SMS is a pretty expensive transport. From = my > work in the OMA I know that people use SMS to trigger the wake-up of > devices and then switch to regular data transmission over IP. IMHO > optimizing for use cases that barely anyone uses appears to be a waste o= f > time. > > [GS] I strongly disagree with the general argument that what is currentl= y > applied is the only thing that is worth working on. One problem with this > type of argument is that it reinforces the existing limitations and becom= es > a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that key exchange protocol messages > currently does not fit into an SMS contributes to the reason why it is no= t > so much used. More SMSs also adds to cost, but the cost depends on the > agreement with the operator so is not necessarily a hard limitation. Who > are we to predict what technology will used given a more efficient key > exchange protocol? For EDHOC with PSK or RPK, each message fits into one > SMS. > > > [Jim] 3. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4: This has a packet size of 127 > bytes. The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes allowing for 102 byte= s > of message > space. If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for CoAP then this means= a > protocol packet size of 82 bytes. If one needs to break the message > across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to be 64 byte= s > using CoAP blockwise options. > > [Hannes] For some reason there seems to be the worry that a small MTU > size at the link layer will cause a lot of problems. There are some radio= s > that have this small MTU size, IEEE 802.15.4 and Bluetooth Low Energy > belong to them. It turns out, however, that higher layers then offer > fragmentation and reassembly support so that higher layers just don't get > to see any of this. In IEEE 802.15.4 this fragmentation & reassembly > support is offered by 6lowpan and in case of Bluetooth Low Energy the lin= k > layer actually consists of various sub-protocols. One of them offers > fragmentation & reassembly. As such, the problem you describe is actually > not a problem. There is no reason why you always have to put a single > application layer payload into a single link layer frame. We have been > using LwM2M (which uses DTLS and CoAP) over IEEE 802.15.4 networks > successfully for big commercial deployments. We have not run into problem= s > with the smaller MTU size at the lower layers. > > [GS] I'm happy to hear you don=E2=80=99t experience any problems, but MTU= sizes > does matter. If message overhead at a higher layer causes fragmentation a= t > a lower layer, instead of only powering up the radio and sending the > physical preamble once, it will be necessary to do that once per each > fragment in the next transmission opportunity at the MAC layer. On top of > this wireless links can be quite lossy, particularly with low-power radio= s > like what is used e.g. with 6tisch. For example, Packet Delivery Ratio > (PDR) that you will typically find indoors with 802.15.4 radios is 60-80% > [1]. Now, when you pass from this single frame to multiple fragments, you > also exponentially increase the probability that one of those fragments > will get lost and that it needs to be retransmitted. It often occurs tha= t > the endpoint performing the reassembly of the fragments just drops the > whole thing in case one of the fragments gets lost. This then results in > retransmissions of all fragments at the sending endpoint, their link-laye= r > retransmissions, etc, all employing the costly radio operations that you > describe. Having this handled by "lower layer" only means that the > application developer does not have to handle it himself, but the energy > penalty for the system does not go away! > > [GS] Fragmentation also adds to latency in several ways. E.g. for LoRaWAN > which operates on unlicensed band, in Europe 868 MHz, there is the concep= t > of 1% duty cycle meaning that for each transmission the device must wait > 100 times as long interval as message sending time before it is allowed t= o > transmit again. LoRaWAN is currently PSK based and this is one example > where a key exchange protocol would improve the overall security both in > the case of PSK and RPK, see [2] for an analysis using EDHOC with PSK ECD= HE. > > [GS] A comparison [4] of time on air between DTLS 1.3 handshake and EDHOC > are given at the end of the mail. Since for LoRaWAN the maximum MTU is 24= 2 > bytes, DTLS handshake with RPK ECHDE does not even fit and would require > some fragmentation scheme (+ the 100 times additional delay). Depending o= n > radio conditions, the higher data rates associated with 242 bytes may inc= ur > too much packet loss requiring the use of a lower data rate with associat= ed > lower frame size and even more severe message overhead restrictions to > avoid fragmentation. > > [Hannes] When it comes to energy scavenging devices then it becomes > even more challenging since this is a more rarely used case. I know about > one company doing this and I have spoken with a researchers at last year'= s > Arm research summit who show-cased one device. The device shown by the > researcher was a prototype and didn't use any Internet protocol nor a > security mechanism. I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable enough to optimi= ze > a system based on this experience but maybe you have more expertise in th= is > field. I am happy to learn more. > > [GS] As mentioned in my previous mail, the scope of this work is about > optimizing security for deployments that can support some kind of CoAP > stack, e.g. CoAP/UDP/IP or CoAP over some link technology. > > > [Hannes] The handshake itself is just a very small part of the overall > size of data that gets transmitted during the lifetime of the device sinc= e > the handshake obviously happens extremely rarely. > > [GS] How often a handshake is invoked is application dependent, it could > for example be the result of the device needs to power off, or because th= e > device reboots. If one handshake consumes as much energy as months of > normal operations, then this contribution may well be noticeable in the > lifetime of the battery. > > [Hannes] There are much better ways to optimize traffic and you obviously > have to look at all the data you are transmitting for the device. > > [GS] How much further optimization you can do is application dependent, > and for some applications security overhead matters. > > Ciao > Hannes > > *: In my experience the ability for developers to easily use any of > the performance optimization techniques is the biggest barrier for gainin= g > performance. Of course, this does not fit nicely in any of the > standardization efforts in the IETF so the focus has to be somewhere else= . > > [GS] The need for performance optimizations depends on the design of the > protocol, so there are definitely efforts in the IETF which can make the > life easier for developers. > > [GS] Now for the comparisons: > > NB-IoT > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Calculations of energy consumption for NB-IoT comparing EDHOC and DTLS 1.= 3 > handshake is given in [3] > > PSK + ECDHE (normal coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 47 mJ > EDHOC: 19 mJ > > PSK + ECDHE (low coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 2992 mJ > EDHOC: 912 mJ > > > RPK + ECDHE (normal coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 64 mJ > EDHOC: 29 mJ > > RPK + ECDHE (low coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 4326 mJ > EDHOC: 1677 mJ > > > We see that the factor 4 in message overhead with PSK ECDHE between DTLS > 1.3 handshake and EDHOC (appendix E of EDHOC) is translated to a factor > 2.5-3.3 in energy consumption for a NB-IoT device depending on coverage. > Analogously the factor 3 in message overhead with RPK ECDHE is translated > into a factor 2.2 - 2.6 in energy consumption. > > > LoRaWAN > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Calculations of time-of-air of handshake of EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 for LoRaWA= N > is given in [4] > > PSK + ECDHE > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 > Message #1: 564 ms > Message #2: 574 ms > Message #3: 226 ms > > EDHOC: > Message #1: 195 ms > Message #2: 205 ms > Message #3: 113 ms > > RPK + ECDHE > ----------------- > DTLS 1.3: N/A without fragmentation scheme > > EDHOC: > Message #1: 184 ms > Message #2: 389 ms > Message #3: 297 ms > > As mentioned above, the time-on-air is an important property for LoRaWAN > deployments since it both relates to power consumption and latency, in > particular due to duty cycles. > > > Summary > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There is a lot that speaks in favor of low message overhead, for example > > * Smaller per-byte contribution to power consumption, which has > significant impact in e.g. licensed spectrum > * Less latency, in particular due to duty cycles in LoRaWAN > * Better fit into MTUs with less fragmentation and associated overhead > * Smaller probability of packet loss > > The comparisons presented here show that DTLS 1.3 is far from optimal. Le= t > me reiterate that this should not be interpreted as a criticism against > TLS/DTLS. We are targeting applications in constrained environments which > the TLS handshake was explicitly not designed to optimize for. We agree > that for many IoT applications the performance of the handshake is > adequate, so there is no need to change DTLS. We also agree that message > overhead is only one aspect, and it is really important to look at other > aspects such as memory, code footprint and usability, which all speak in > favor of a protocol with limited functionality and which reuses existing > code in the devices such as CBOR and COSE. For certain application > providers current IETF protocols are prohibitive in one or more of these > aspects, and unless the performance is drastically improved some consider > (still, 2019) to skip end-to-end security (e.g. terminate security in a > gateway), make their own security protocol, or use more pragmatic key > exchange constructions like Noise [5]. > > I would like to leave the comparison exercise soon and focus on the > security properties. I hope we have made a point that constrained > characteristics matter. Can the IETF support work on a key exchange > protocol that is designed for the constrained IoT, or are we restricted t= o > retrofit some other protocol with other design goals? > > > G=C3=B6ran > > > [1] Mu=C3=B1oz, Jonathan, et al. "Why Channel Hopping Makes Sense, even w= ith > IEEE802. 15.4 OFDM at 2.4 GHz." 2018 Global Internet of Things Summit > (GIoTS). IEEE, 2018. > [2] Sanchez-Iborra, Ramon, et al., "Enhancing LoRaWAN Security through a > Lightweight and Authenticated Key Management Approach", Sensors, 2018 > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6021899/ > [3] NB-IoT power consumption comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3 > > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/NB%20IoT%20pow= er%20consumption.xlsx > [4] LoRaWAN Time-of-Air comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3 > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/LoRaWAN_ToA.xl= sx > [5] The Noise Protocol Framework > http://www.noiseprotocol.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch > --00000000000048948f0581dc81f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
G=C3=B6ran: When these metrics talk about DTLS 1.3, d= o they mean that protocol directly, unmodified?

On= e alternative approach people have had in mind is the idea of re-encoding /= profiling down DTLS so that although it is syntactically different and may= be has fewer options, it encodes the same underlying AKE.=C2=A0 Has that pa= th has been explored?

On the one hand, if it s= ucceeds in slimming down DTLS to an acceptable point, it would obviate the = need for a whole bunch of new analysis.=C2=A0 On the other hand, if it fail= s, then it should highlight the specific things EDHOC has done differently,= so that analysis can be focused on those things.

= Thanks,
--Richard

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 10:41 AM G=C3= =B6ran Selander <goran.se= lander@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi Hannes, secdispatch, and ace,

(It seems Hannes original mail only went to secdispatch.)

Apologies for a long mail, and late response. I had to ask some people for = help with calculations, see end of this mail.

=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-01-25, 15:15, "Secdispatch on behalf of Hannes Tschof= enig" <secdispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> w= rote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fwd to SecDispatch since it was only posted on the SecDir lis= t

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 14:07
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Jim Schaad &= lt;ietf@augustc= ellars.com>; se= cdir@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: RE: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A minor follow-up: I mentioned that I am aware of a company u= sing the energy scavenging devices and it turns out that this information i= s actually public and there is even a short video on YouTube. The company w= e worked with is called Alphatronics and here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJHpJV_CPYb4

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As you can hear in the video we have been using our Mbed OS t= ogether with our device management solution (LwM2M with DTLS and CoAP) for = these types of devices.

[GS] Nice application of LwM2M. The showcased device didn't seem very c= onstrained though, ARM Cortex M4?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: secdir <secdir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschof= enig
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 13:52
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; secdir@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Re: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 what we are doing here is making an optimizatio= n. For some (unknown reason) we have focused our attention to the over-the-= wire transmission overhead (not code size, RAM utilization, or developer us= ability*).

[GS] Exactly my point, it is not enough with reducing transmission overhead= . We should also look at additional memory, flash, and configuration effort= . These parameters are of course implementation dependent but can to some e= xtent be inferred by bulk of specification and what pre-existing code can b= e reused.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 We are doing this optimization mostly based on = information about what other people tell us rather than based on our experi= ence. The problem is that we have too few people with hands-on knowledge an= d/or deployment experience and if they have that experience they may not li= ke to talk about it. So, we are stepping around in the dark and mostly perc= eived problems.

[GS] I don't think this rhetoric is very helpful. Who are "us"= ;? The co-workers you quote below, are they "us" or the "oth= er people"? The people active in 6tisch, lpwan or 6lo who are supporti= ng the work on an optimized key exchange, are they "us" or the &q= uot;other people"?


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 Having said that I would like to provide a few = remarks to your list below:

=C2=A0 [Jim]=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 Low-power devices that either are battery= based or scavenge power, these devices pay a power penalty for every byte = of data sent and thus have a desire for the smallest messages possible.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] Low power is a very complex topic since it is a syst= em issue and boiling it down to the transmission overhead of every byte is = an oversimplification. You are making certain assumptions of how power cons= umption of radio technologies work, which will be hard to verify. I have be= en working on power measurements recently (but only focused on power measur= ements of crypto, see https://community.arm.com/arm-research/b/articles= /posts/testing-crypto-performance-and-power-consumption).

[GS] These kind of power measurements of crypto are part of the explanation= for why transmission overhead is important to reduce. Optimizations and ha= rdware support make the crypto contribution to power consumption possible t= o handle, so that there is no reason to deviate from the use of current bes= t practice crypto in security protocols even for constrained devices. The e= nergy cost for transmission, however, is a strongly coupled to the laws of = physics which sets a limit for how much they can be optimized.

[Hannes] I doubt that many people on this list nor in the IETF have a lot o= f experience in this field to use this as a basic for an optimization.

[GS] There are people in 6tisch, lpwan and 6lo who knows about power consum= ption and constrained characteristics. Some of them were supporting EDHOC i= n ACE when you were chair.

[Hannes]=C2=A0 =C2=A0My co-workers, who are active in this space, tell me t= hat there is nothing like a "per byte" linear relationship (for s= mall quantities of data) in terms of energy cost. Obviously if you trigger = "an additional transmission", which requires you to ramp up a PLL= , turn on radio amplifiers, send lengthy preambles etc then the incremental= cost of sending 64 bytes in that packet vs 16 bytes might be immeasurable = small. The critical thing appears to be how long the RF amplifiers are powe= red on. Hence, you will often see publications that tell you that waiting f= or incoming packets is actually the most expensive task (in terms of power = consumption).

[GS] Energy consumption generally increases with message overhead in wirele= ss systems. This function is different for different radio technologies, da= ta rates, etc. Even if we pick a certain technology like 6tisch, LoRaWAN or= NB-IoT, events like packet loss and retransmission impacts the result. So = indeed, this is complicated, but we can still make general claims as well a= s estimates of particular technologies. I asked a colleague to make some po= wer consumption estimates for NB-IoT devices. NB-IoT is licensed spectrum, = which implies that the devices are allowed to transmit at a higher power co= mpared to unlicensed spectrum. It also means that the application provider = in general does not control how good the coverage is, since that depends on= location of base station and environment. A comparison [3] between DTLS 1.= 3 and EDHOC is given at the end of this mail, but just because you mentione= d the incremental cost of a device sending 64 vs 16 bytes, the difference i= s indeed measurable: 992 mJ vs 479 mJ, i.e. half a Joule of difference in a= case of low coverage (see [3]).

[GS]: About cost for listening: there are different techniques for decreasi= ng time to listen, like time slots, DRX etc. These are examples of where th= e radio guys can be innovative and make optimizations, in contrast to trans= mission overhead for security where they just have to accept what the secur= ity people decided.

=C2=A0 [Jim]=C2=A0 2. CoAP over SMS:=C2=A0 SMS has a 140 byte packet size.= =C2=A0 There are two approaches for dealing with packets of larger than 140= bytes:=C2=A0 1) There is a method of appending multiple packets together t= o form a single larger packet.=C2=A0 2) You can use CoAP blockwise transfer= .=C2=A0 Using CoAP blockwise would result in 128 byte packets for the under= lying transfer assuming that only 12 bytes are needed for the CoAP header i= tself.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] It turns out that CoAP over SMS is rarely used for d= elivering data of IP-based devices since SMS is a pretty expensive transpor= t. From my work in the OMA I know that people use SMS to trigger the wake-u= p of devices and then switch to regular data transmission over IP. IMHO opt= imizing for use cases that barely anyone=C2=A0 uses appears to be a waste o= f time.

[GS]=C2=A0 I strongly disagree with the general argument that what is curre= ntly applied is the only thing that is worth working on. One problem with t= his type of argument is that it reinforces the existing limitations and bec= omes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that key exchange protocol messag= es currently does not fit into an SMS contributes to the reason why it is n= ot so much used. More SMSs also adds to cost, but the cost depends on the a= greement with the operator so is not necessarily a hard limitation. Who are= we to predict what technology will used given a more efficient key exchang= e protocol? For EDHOC with PSK or RPK, each message fits into one SMS.


=C2=A0[Jim]=C2=A0 =C2=A03. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4:=C2=A0 This has a pack= et size of 127 bytes.=C2=A0 The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes all= owing for 102 bytes of message
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 space.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for Co= AP then this means a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol packet size of 82 bytes.=C2=A0 If one needs to break= the message across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to= be 64 bytes using CoAP blockwise options.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] For some reason there seems to be the worry that a s= mall MTU size at the link layer will cause a lot of problems. There are som= e radios that have this small MTU size, IEEE 802.15.4 and Bluetooth Low Ene= rgy belong to them. It turns out, however, that higher layers then offer fr= agmentation and reassembly support so that higher layers just don't get= to see any of this. In IEEE 802.15.4 this fragmentation & reassembly s= upport is offered by 6lowpan and in case of Bluetooth Low Energy the link l= ayer actually consists of various sub-protocols. One of them offers fragmen= tation & reassembly. As such, the problem you describe is actually not = a problem. There is no reason why you always have to put a single applicati= on layer payload into a single link layer frame.=C2=A0 We have been using L= wM2M (which uses DTLS and CoAP) over IEEE 802.15.4 networks successfully fo= r big commercial deployments. We have not run into problems with the smalle= r MTU size at the lower layers.

[GS] I'm happy to hear you don=E2=80=99t experience any problems, but M= TU sizes does matter. If message overhead at a higher layer causes fragment= ation at a lower layer, instead of only powering up the radio and sending t= he physical preamble once, it will be necessary to do that once per each fr= agment in the next transmission opportunity at the MAC layer. On top of thi= s wireless links can be quite lossy, particularly with low-power radios lik= e what is used e.g. with 6tisch. For example, Packet Delivery Ratio (PDR) t= hat you will typically find indoors with 802.15.4 radios is 60-80% [1]. Now= , when you pass from this single frame to multiple fragments, you also expo= nentially increase the probability that one of those fragments will get los= t and that it needs to be=C2=A0 retransmitted. It often occurs that the end= point performing the reassembly of the fragments just drops the whole thing= in case one of the fragments gets lost. This then results in retransmissio= ns of all fragments at the sending endpoint, their link-layer retransmissio= ns, etc, all employing the costly radio operations that you describe. Havin= g this handled by "lower layer" only means that the application d= eveloper does not have to handle it himself, but the energy penalty for the= system does not go away!

[GS] Fragmentation also adds to latency in several ways. E.g. for LoRaWAN w= hich operates on unlicensed band, in Europe 868 MHz, there is the concept o= f 1% duty cycle meaning that for each transmission the device must wait 100= times as long interval as message sending time before it is allowed to tra= nsmit again. LoRaWAN is currently PSK based and this is one example where a= key exchange protocol would improve the overall security both in the case = of PSK and RPK, see [2] for an analysis using EDHOC with PSK ECDHE.

[GS] A comparison [4] of time on air between DTLS 1.3 handshake and EDHOC a= re given at the end of the mail. Since for LoRaWAN the maximum MTU is 242 b= ytes, DTLS handshake with RPK ECHDE does not even fit and would require som= e fragmentation scheme (+ the 100 times additional delay). Depending on rad= io conditions, the higher data rates associated with 242 bytes may incur to= o much packet loss requiring the use of a lower data rate with associated l= ower frame size and even more severe message overhead restrictions to avoid= fragmentation.

=C2=A0 [Hannes]=C2=A0 When it comes to energy scavenging devices then it be= comes even more challenging since this is a more rarely used case. I know a= bout one company doing this and I have spoken with a researchers at last ye= ar's Arm research summit who show-cased one device. The device shown by= the researcher was a prototype and didn't use any Internet protocol no= r a security mechanism. I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable enough to = optimize a system based on this experience but maybe you have more expertis= e in this field. I am happy to learn more.

[GS] As mentioned in my previous mail, the scope of this work is about opti= mizing security for deployments that can support some kind of CoAP stack, e= .g. CoAP/UDP/IP or CoAP over some link technology.


[Hannes] The handshake itself is just a very small part of the overall size= of data that gets transmitted during the lifetime of the device since the = handshake obviously happens extremely rarely.

[GS] How often a handshake is invoked is application dependent, it could fo= r example be the result of the device needs to power off, or because the de= vice reboots. If one handshake consumes as much energy as months of normal = operations, then this contribution may well be noticeable in the lifetime o= f the battery.

[Hannes] There are much better ways to optimize traffic and you obviously h= ave to look at all the data you are transmitting for the device.

[GS] How much further optimization you can do is application dependent, and= for some applications security overhead matters.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ciao
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hannes

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *: In my experience the ability for developers to easily use = any of the performance optimization techniques is the biggest barrier for g= aining performance. Of course, this does not fit nicely in any of the stand= ardization efforts in the IETF so the focus has to be somewhere else.

[GS] The need for performance optimizations depends on the design of the pr= otocol, so there are definitely efforts in the IETF which can make the life= easier for developers.

[GS] Now for the comparisons:

NB-IoT
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Calculations of energy consumption for NB-IoT comparing EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 = handshake is given in [3]

PSK + ECDHE (normal coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 47 mJ
EDHOC: 19 mJ

PSK + ECDHE (low coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 2992 mJ
EDHOC: 912 mJ


RPK + ECDHE (normal coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 64 mJ
EDHOC: 29 mJ

RPK + ECDHE (low coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 4326 mJ
EDHOC: 1677 mJ


We see that the factor 4 in message overhead with PSK ECDHE between DTLS 1.= 3 handshake and EDHOC (appendix E of EDHOC) is translated to a factor 2.5-3= .3 in energy consumption for a NB-IoT device depending on coverage. Analogo= usly the factor 3 in message overhead with RPK ECDHE is translated into a f= actor 2.2 - 2.6 in energy consumption.


LoRaWAN
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Calculations of time-of-air of handshake of EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 for LoRaWAN = is given in [4]

PSK + ECDHE
----------------
DTLS 1.3
Message #1: 564 ms
Message #2: 574 ms
Message #3: 226 ms

EDHOC:
Message #1: 195 ms
Message #2: 205 ms
Message #3: 113 ms

RPK + ECDHE
-----------------
DTLS 1.3: N/A without fragmentation scheme

EDHOC:
Message #1: 184 ms
Message #2: 389 ms
Message #3: 297 ms

As mentioned above, the time-on-air is an important property for LoRaWAN de= ployments since it both relates to power consumption and latency, in partic= ular due to duty cycles.


Summary
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
There is a lot that speaks in favor of low message overhead, for example
* Smaller per-byte contribution to power consumption, which has significant= impact in e.g. licensed spectrum
* Less latency, in particular due to duty cycles in LoRaWAN
* Better fit into MTUs with less fragmentation and associated overhead
* Smaller probability of packet loss

The comparisons presented here show that DTLS 1.3 is far from optimal. Let = me reiterate that this should not be interpreted as a criticism against TLS= /DTLS. We are targeting applications in constrained environments which the = TLS handshake was explicitly not designed to optimize for. We agree that fo= r many IoT applications the performance of the handshake is adequate, so th= ere is no need to change DTLS. We also agree that message overhead is only = one aspect, and it is really important to look at other aspects such as mem= ory, code footprint and usability, which all speak in favor of a protocol w= ith limited functionality and which reuses existing code in the devices suc= h as CBOR and COSE. For certain application providers current IETF protocol= s are prohibitive in one or more of these aspects, and unless the performan= ce is drastically improved some consider (still, 2019) to skip end-to-end s= ecurity (e.g. terminate security in a gateway), make their own security pro= tocol, or use more pragmatic key exchange constructions like Noise [5].
I would like to leave the comparison exercise soon and focus on the securit= y properties. I hope we have made a point that constrained characteristics = matter. Can the IETF support work on a key exchange protocol that is design= ed for the constrained IoT, or are we restricted to retrofit some other pro= tocol with other design goals?


G=C3=B6ran


[1] Mu=C3=B1oz, Jonathan, et al. "Why Channel Hopping Makes Sense, eve= n with IEEE802. 15.4 OFDM at 2.4 GHz." 2018 Global Internet of Things = Summit (GIoTS). IEEE, 2018.
[2] Sanchez-Iborra, Ramon, et al., "Enhancing LoRaWAN Security through= a Lightweight and Authenticated Key Management Approach", Sensors, 20= 18
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC60= 21899/
[3] NB-IoT power consumption comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3
https:= //github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/NB%20IoT%20power%20con= sumption.xlsx
[4] LoRaWAN Time-of-Air comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3
https://github.com/Ericss= onResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/LoRaWAN_ToA.xlsx
[5] The Noise Protocol Framework
http://www.noiseprotocol.org/


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I will be in a similar time zone to Martin that week = (Japan vs. Australia), so if it were possible to offer some times that were= friendlier to that part of the world, it would be helpful.

<= /div>
--Richard

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:17 PM Martin Thomso= n <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:=
On Tue, Feb 12,= 2019, at 09:20, Roman Danyliw wrote:
> In coordination with the ACE co-chairs, SECDISPATCH will have a virtua= l
> interim meeting focused on dispatching EDHOC [1].=C2=A0 Help suggest t= he best
> day for this virtual meeting during the week of March 4, 2019 by
> completing this doodle poll -- https://doodle.com/poll/= fevqfmn57rbb4rdg.

I appreciate the difficulties, but a choice between 2am and 3:30am is not a= choice[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choi= ce

_______________________________________________
Secdispatch mailing list
Secdispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
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AHgI3Ib8HQg1yFehYxSjR0gfpUQJ78DBS9r0u2CDv5TYgVMTWZcp2EggjZ3onSVi8J4Bdy87+NShNQB4ZmUWaYk8q4E= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4496:: with SMTP id v22mr5987284oiv.51.1550247559831; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:19:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:19:03 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Cc: "secdispatch@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e38130581f123fd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 16:19:39 -0000 --0000000000001e38130581f123fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:13 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > Hi Richard, > > > > Thanks, that is a fair question to ask on behalf of those who are new to > the subject. > > > > The short answer is: Yes, we have counted every byte of the TLS handshake > and, no, we don=E2=80=99t think it is possible to support the same radio > technologies as EDHOC do, unless you change some assumption which impacts > the security analysis of TLS. > This is the part that worries me. It would be helpful to be very crisp about what assumptions are being changed here, and why it's OK for them to be changed. Especially given that the Bruni et al. paper seems to have found flaws. Your point about CBOR isn't relevant here. Re-encoding is fine; it's changing the AKE that necessitates a whole bunch of new analysis. Finally, to be totally honest, I find the EDHOC spec pretty inscrutable. A little more prose to explain what's going on would go a long way toward helping this discussion be productive. --Richard > The longer answer is embedded in the previous mails, for convenience I > reiterate some of the items. > > > > 1. A property like energy consumption is not binary, but the smaller > the message overhead the better, primarily because it makes the messag= es > fit into smaller frame sizes but also because of per byte power consum= ption > which is noticeable in some radio technologies. Fitting into frame siz= e > means avoiding a step up in power consumption due to transmission over= head > not related to the payload, and also having fewer packets that may be > corrupted and result in retransmission with additional power consumpti= on. > For example, LoRaWAN has a packet size for DR0-2 (51 bytes, in practic= e a > few bytes less), in which we can fit all messages with EDHOC PSK ECHDE= . > While EDHOC messages are small, we certainly would welcome an even sma= ller > handshake with the same functionality to better handle other radio > technologies and fragmentation schemes with even smaller frame sizes, = but > we=E2=80=99re not interested in something less optimal. > > > > 1. As Hannes and I agree, this is not only about message overhead. > Memory and code size in a device are also important, specifically what= is > added on top of CoAP and OSCORE, which are already implemented in the > targeted device. This is the reason why EDHOC builds on CBOR and certa= in > COSE objects. Downsizing an existing protocol still means new code is > needed, as using a subset of the protocol does not decrease the size o= f > existing implementations. Furthermore, changing encoding may lead to > incompatible handshake message formats: Over what are signatures made;= the > original encoding or the compact? If the original, then the constraine= d > device must re-encode in order to verify the signature, which adds eve= n > more to memory and flash. If the signature is on the compact encoding,= then > it is not backwards compatible with since legacy implementations canno= t > verify. In either case a major point with profiling is lost. > > > > 1. As a final point for people entering the discussion late, this is > not a draft coming out of the blue; there is a history to consider. Af= ter > the first in-room rough consensus for adoption in ACE at IETF 98 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-98-ace/ the progress of EDHOC > went into offline mode, during which the authors were tasked to work o= n > formal verification (see below) and make comparison with TLS handshake= . We > showed that there are significant differences in overhead: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-11#appendix-= E.4 > > We have also shown that these differences have an impact on energy > consumption and latency, and on what radio technologies can be supported > (see below in this mail). These properties are the results of having > constrained IoT as an explicit target for the protocol. As this was not t= he > case for the TLS handshake it should not come as a surprise that it may b= e > difficult to retrofit without changing some basic assumptions used in the > security analysis, like removing the nonces. We are happy to deploy the > result of an optimized DTLS but we don=E2=80=99t think it is fair that su= ch work > should hold up the progress of this draft any longer. > > > > As for the formal verification, we were fortunate that the IT University > of Copenhagen volunteered and has now proved properties like injective > agreement, secrecy and forward secrecy to be discussed more in the interi= m > meeting. An analysis of a previous version of the draft is here: > > > https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/formal-verification-of-ephemeral-d= iffie-hellman-over-cose-edhoc/16284348 > > (a link to the paper will be available in the agenda) > > > > We are aware of that more security analysis is needed, but would like to > think that the properties listed above are good enough for adoption. That > is also one factor that would significantly increase the motivation for > people to make further analysis of the security of EDHOC. > > > > > > G=C3=B6ran > > > > > > *From: *Richard Barnes > *Date: *Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 16:42 > *To: *G=C3=B6ran Selander > *Cc: *Hannes Tschofenig , "secdispatch@ietf.or= g" > , "ace@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Secdispatch] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports > > > > G=C3=B6ran: When these metrics talk about DTLS 1.3, do they mean that pro= tocol > directly, unmodified? > > > > One alternative approach people have had in mind is the idea of > re-encoding / profiling down DTLS so that although it is syntactically > different and maybe has fewer options, it encodes the same underlying AKE= . > Has that path has been explored? > > > > On the one hand, if it succeeds in slimming down DTLS to an acceptable > point, it would obviate the need for a whole bunch of new analysis. On t= he > other hand, if it fails, then it should highlight the specific things EDH= OC > has done differently, so that analysis can be focused on those things. > > > > Thanks, > > --Richard > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 10:41 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander < > goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi Hannes, secdispatch, and ace, > > (It seems Hannes original mail only went to secdispatch.) > > Apologies for a long mail, and late response. I had to ask some people fo= r > help with calculations, see end of this mail. > > On 2019-01-25, 15:15, "Secdispatch on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig" < > secdispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> > wrote: > > Fwd to SecDispatch since it was only posted on the SecDir list > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannes Tschofenig > Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 14:07 > To: Hannes Tschofenig ; Jim Schaad < > ietf@augustcellars.com>; secdir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports > > A minor follow-up: I mentioned that I am aware of a company using the > energy scavenging devices and it turns out that this information is > actually public and there is even a short video on YouTube. The company w= e > worked with is called Alphatronics and here is the video: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJHpJV_CPYb4 > > As you can hear in the video we have been using our Mbed OS together > with our device management solution (LwM2M with DTLS and CoAP) for these > types of devices. > > [GS] Nice application of LwM2M. The showcased device didn't seem very > constrained though, ARM Cortex M4? > > -----Original Message----- > From: secdir On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig > Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 13:52 > To: Jim Schaad ; secdir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports > > > [Hannes] what we are doing here is making an optimization. For some > (unknown reason) we have focused our attention to the over-the-wire > transmission overhead (not code size, RAM utilization, or developer > usability*). > > [GS] Exactly my point, it is not enough with reducing transmission > overhead. We should also look at additional memory, flash, and > configuration effort. These parameters are of course implementation > dependent but can to some extent be inferred by bulk of specification and > what pre-existing code can be reused. > > [Hannes] We are doing this optimization mostly based on information > about what other people tell us rather than based on our experience. The > problem is that we have too few people with hands-on knowledge and/or > deployment experience and if they have that experience they may not like = to > talk about it. So, we are stepping around in the dark and mostly perceive= d > problems. > > [GS] I don't think this rhetoric is very helpful. Who are "us"? The > co-workers you quote below, are they "us" or the "other people"? The peop= le > active in 6tisch, lpwan or 6lo who are supporting the work on an optimize= d > key exchange, are they "us" or the "other people"? > > > [Hannes] Having said that I would like to provide a few remarks to > your list below: > > [Jim] 1. Low-power devices that either are battery based or scavenge > power, these devices pay a power penalty for every byte of data sent and > thus have a desire for the smallest messages possible. > > [Hannes] Low power is a very complex topic since it is a system issue > and boiling it down to the transmission overhead of every byte is an > oversimplification. You are making certain assumptions of how power > consumption of radio technologies work, which will be hard to verify. I > have been working on power measurements recently (but only focused on pow= er > measurements of crypto, see > https://community.arm.com/arm-research/b/articles/posts/testing-crypto-pe= rformance-and-power-consumption). > > > [GS] These kind of power measurements of crypto are part of the > explanation for why transmission overhead is important to reduce. > Optimizations and hardware support make the crypto contribution to power > consumption possible to handle, so that there is no reason to deviate fro= m > the use of current best practice crypto in security protocols even for > constrained devices. The energy cost for transmission, however, is a > strongly coupled to the laws of physics which sets a limit for how much > they can be optimized. > > [Hannes] I doubt that many people on this list nor in the IETF have a lot > of experience in this field to use this as a basic for an optimization. > > [GS] There are people in 6tisch, lpwan and 6lo who knows about power > consumption and constrained characteristics. Some of them were supporting > EDHOC in ACE when you were chair. > > [Hannes] My co-workers, who are active in this space, tell me that ther= e > is nothing like a "per byte" linear relationship (for small quantities of > data) in terms of energy cost. Obviously if you trigger "an additional > transmission", which requires you to ramp up a PLL, turn on radio > amplifiers, send lengthy preambles etc then the incremental cost of sendi= ng > 64 bytes in that packet vs 16 bytes might be immeasurable small. The > critical thing appears to be how long the RF amplifiers are powered on. > Hence, you will often see publications that tell you that waiting for > incoming packets is actually the most expensive task (in terms of power > consumption). > > [GS] Energy consumption generally increases with message overhead in > wireless systems. This function is different for different radio > technologies, data rates, etc. Even if we pick a certain technology like > 6tisch, LoRaWAN or NB-IoT, events like packet loss and retransmission > impacts the result. So indeed, this is complicated, but we can still make > general claims as well as estimates of particular technologies. I asked a > colleague to make some power consumption estimates for NB-IoT devices. > NB-IoT is licensed spectrum, which implies that the devices are allowed t= o > transmit at a higher power compared to unlicensed spectrum. It also means > that the application provider in general does not control how good the > coverage is, since that depends on location of base station and > environment. A comparison [3] between DTLS 1.3 and EDHOC is given at the > end of this mail, but just because you mentioned the incremental cost of = a > device sending 64 vs 16 bytes, the difference is indeed measurable: 992 m= J > vs 479 mJ, i.e. half a Joule of difference in a case of low coverage (see > [3]). > > [GS]: About cost for listening: there are different techniques for > decreasing time to listen, like time slots, DRX etc. These are examples o= f > where the radio guys can be innovative and make optimizations, in contras= t > to transmission overhead for security where they just have to accept what > the security people decided. > > [Jim] 2. CoAP over SMS: SMS has a 140 byte packet size. There are tw= o > approaches for dealing with packets of larger than 140 bytes: 1) There i= s > a method of appending multiple packets together to form a single larger > packet. 2) You can use CoAP blockwise transfer. Using CoAP blockwise > would result in 128 byte packets for the underlying transfer assuming tha= t > only 12 bytes are needed for the CoAP header itself. > > [Hannes] It turns out that CoAP over SMS is rarely used for deliverin= g > data of IP-based devices since SMS is a pretty expensive transport. From = my > work in the OMA I know that people use SMS to trigger the wake-up of > devices and then switch to regular data transmission over IP. IMHO > optimizing for use cases that barely anyone uses appears to be a waste o= f > time. > > [GS] I strongly disagree with the general argument that what is currentl= y > applied is the only thing that is worth working on. One problem with this > type of argument is that it reinforces the existing limitations and becom= es > a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that key exchange protocol messages > currently does not fit into an SMS contributes to the reason why it is no= t > so much used. More SMSs also adds to cost, but the cost depends on the > agreement with the operator so is not necessarily a hard limitation. Who > are we to predict what technology will used given a more efficient key > exchange protocol? For EDHOC with PSK or RPK, each message fits into one > SMS. > > > [Jim] 3. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4: This has a packet size of 127 > bytes. The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes allowing for 102 byte= s > of message > space. If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for CoAP then this means= a > protocol packet size of 82 bytes. If one needs to break the message > across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to be 64 byte= s > using CoAP blockwise options. > > [Hannes] For some reason there seems to be the worry that a small MTU > size at the link layer will cause a lot of problems. There are some radio= s > that have this small MTU size, IEEE 802.15.4 and Bluetooth Low Energy > belong to them. It turns out, however, that higher layers then offer > fragmentation and reassembly support so that higher layers just don't get > to see any of this. In IEEE 802.15.4 this fragmentation & reassembly > support is offered by 6lowpan and in case of Bluetooth Low Energy the lin= k > layer actually consists of various sub-protocols. One of them offers > fragmentation & reassembly. As such, the problem you describe is actually > not a problem. There is no reason why you always have to put a single > application layer payload into a single link layer frame. We have been > using LwM2M (which uses DTLS and CoAP) over IEEE 802.15.4 networks > successfully for big commercial deployments. We have not run into problem= s > with the smaller MTU size at the lower layers. > > [GS] I'm happy to hear you don=E2=80=99t experience any problems, but MTU= sizes > does matter. If message overhead at a higher layer causes fragmentation a= t > a lower layer, instead of only powering up the radio and sending the > physical preamble once, it will be necessary to do that once per each > fragment in the next transmission opportunity at the MAC layer. On top of > this wireless links can be quite lossy, particularly with low-power radio= s > like what is used e.g. with 6tisch. For example, Packet Delivery Ratio > (PDR) that you will typically find indoors with 802.15.4 radios is 60-80% > [1]. Now, when you pass from this single frame to multiple fragments, you > also exponentially increase the probability that one of those fragments > will get lost and that it needs to be retransmitted. It often occurs tha= t > the endpoint performing the reassembly of the fragments just drops the > whole thing in case one of the fragments gets lost. This then results in > retransmissions of all fragments at the sending endpoint, their link-laye= r > retransmissions, etc, all employing the costly radio operations that you > describe. Having this handled by "lower layer" only means that the > application developer does not have to handle it himself, but the energy > penalty for the system does not go away! > > [GS] Fragmentation also adds to latency in several ways. E.g. for LoRaWAN > which operates on unlicensed band, in Europe 868 MHz, there is the concep= t > of 1% duty cycle meaning that for each transmission the device must wait > 100 times as long interval as message sending time before it is allowed t= o > transmit again. LoRaWAN is currently PSK based and this is one example > where a key exchange protocol would improve the overall security both in > the case of PSK and RPK, see [2] for an analysis using EDHOC with PSK ECD= HE. > > [GS] A comparison [4] of time on air between DTLS 1.3 handshake and EDHOC > are given at the end of the mail. Since for LoRaWAN the maximum MTU is 24= 2 > bytes, DTLS handshake with RPK ECHDE does not even fit and would require > some fragmentation scheme (+ the 100 times additional delay). Depending o= n > radio conditions, the higher data rates associated with 242 bytes may inc= ur > too much packet loss requiring the use of a lower data rate with associat= ed > lower frame size and even more severe message overhead restrictions to > avoid fragmentation. > > [Hannes] When it comes to energy scavenging devices then it becomes > even more challenging since this is a more rarely used case. I know about > one company doing this and I have spoken with a researchers at last year'= s > Arm research summit who show-cased one device. The device shown by the > researcher was a prototype and didn't use any Internet protocol nor a > security mechanism. I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable enough to optimi= ze > a system based on this experience but maybe you have more expertise in th= is > field. I am happy to learn more. > > [GS] As mentioned in my previous mail, the scope of this work is about > optimizing security for deployments that can support some kind of CoAP > stack, e.g. CoAP/UDP/IP or CoAP over some link technology. > > > [Hannes] The handshake itself is just a very small part of the overall > size of data that gets transmitted during the lifetime of the device sinc= e > the handshake obviously happens extremely rarely. > > [GS] How often a handshake is invoked is application dependent, it could > for example be the result of the device needs to power off, or because th= e > device reboots. If one handshake consumes as much energy as months of > normal operations, then this contribution may well be noticeable in the > lifetime of the battery. > > [Hannes] There are much better ways to optimize traffic and you obviously > have to look at all the data you are transmitting for the device. > > [GS] How much further optimization you can do is application dependent, > and for some applications security overhead matters. > > Ciao > Hannes > > *: In my experience the ability for developers to easily use any of > the performance optimization techniques is the biggest barrier for gainin= g > performance. Of course, this does not fit nicely in any of the > standardization efforts in the IETF so the focus has to be somewhere else= . > > [GS] The need for performance optimizations depends on the design of the > protocol, so there are definitely efforts in the IETF which can make the > life easier for developers. > > [GS] Now for the comparisons: > > NB-IoT > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Calculations of energy consumption for NB-IoT comparing EDHOC and DTLS 1.= 3 > handshake is given in [3] > > PSK + ECDHE (normal coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 47 mJ > EDHOC: 19 mJ > > PSK + ECDHE (low coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 2992 mJ > EDHOC: 912 mJ > > > RPK + ECDHE (normal coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 64 mJ > EDHOC: 29 mJ > > RPK + ECDHE (low coverage) > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 handshake: 4326 mJ > EDHOC: 1677 mJ > > > We see that the factor 4 in message overhead with PSK ECDHE between DTLS > 1.3 handshake and EDHOC (appendix E of EDHOC) is translated to a factor > 2.5-3.3 in energy consumption for a NB-IoT device depending on coverage. > Analogously the factor 3 in message overhead with RPK ECDHE is translated > into a factor 2.2 - 2.6 in energy consumption. > > > LoRaWAN > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Calculations of time-of-air of handshake of EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 for LoRaWA= N > is given in [4] > > PSK + ECDHE > ---------------- > DTLS 1.3 > Message #1: 564 ms > Message #2: 574 ms > Message #3: 226 ms > > EDHOC: > Message #1: 195 ms > Message #2: 205 ms > Message #3: 113 ms > > RPK + ECDHE > ----------------- > DTLS 1.3: N/A without fragmentation scheme > > EDHOC: > Message #1: 184 ms > Message #2: 389 ms > Message #3: 297 ms > > As mentioned above, the time-on-air is an important property for LoRaWAN > deployments since it both relates to power consumption and latency, in > particular due to duty cycles. > > > Summary > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > There is a lot that speaks in favor of low message overhead, for example > > * Smaller per-byte contribution to power consumption, which has > significant impact in e.g. licensed spectrum > * Less latency, in particular due to duty cycles in LoRaWAN > * Better fit into MTUs with less fragmentation and associated overhead > * Smaller probability of packet loss > > The comparisons presented here show that DTLS 1.3 is far from optimal. Le= t > me reiterate that this should not be interpreted as a criticism against > TLS/DTLS. We are targeting applications in constrained environments which > the TLS handshake was explicitly not designed to optimize for. We agree > that for many IoT applications the performance of the handshake is > adequate, so there is no need to change DTLS. We also agree that message > overhead is only one aspect, and it is really important to look at other > aspects such as memory, code footprint and usability, which all speak in > favor of a protocol with limited functionality and which reuses existing > code in the devices such as CBOR and COSE. For certain application > providers current IETF protocols are prohibitive in one or more of these > aspects, and unless the performance is drastically improved some consider > (still, 2019) to skip end-to-end security (e.g. terminate security in a > gateway), make their own security protocol, or use more pragmatic key > exchange constructions like Noise [5]. > > I would like to leave the comparison exercise soon and focus on the > security properties. I hope we have made a point that constrained > characteristics matter. Can the IETF support work on a key exchange > protocol that is designed for the constrained IoT, or are we restricted t= o > retrofit some other protocol with other design goals? > > > G=C3=B6ran > > > [1] Mu=C3=B1oz, Jonathan, et al. "Why Channel Hopping Makes Sense, even w= ith > IEEE802. 15.4 OFDM at 2.4 GHz." 2018 Global Internet of Things Summit > (GIoTS). IEEE, 2018. > [2] Sanchez-Iborra, Ramon, et al., "Enhancing LoRaWAN Security through a > Lightweight and Authenticated Key Management Approach", Sensors, 2018 > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6021899/ > [3] NB-IoT power consumption comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3 > > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/NB%20IoT%20pow= er%20consumption.xlsx > [4] LoRaWAN Time-of-Air comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3 > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/LoRaWAN_ToA.xl= sx > [5] The Noise Protocol Framework > http://www.noiseprotocol.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch > > --0000000000001e38130581f123fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:13 AM G=C3= =B6ran Selander <goran.se= lander@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Richard,

=C2=A0

Thanks, that is a fair question= to ask on behalf of those who are new to the subject.

=C2=A0

The short answer is: Yes, we ha= ve counted every byte of the TLS handshake and, no, we don=E2=80=99t think = it is possible to support the same radio technologies as EDHOC do, unless y= ou change some assumption which impacts the security analysis of TLS.


This is the part that worries me.=C2=A0 It would be helpful to be ve= ry crisp about what assumptions are being changed here, and why it's OK= for them to be changed.=C2=A0 Especially given that the Bruni et al. paper= seems to have found flaws.

Your point about CBOR = isn't relevant here.=C2=A0 Re-encoding is fine; it's changing the A= KE that necessitates a whole bunch of new analysis.

Finally, to be totally honest, I find the EDHOC spec pretty inscrutable.= =C2=A0 A little more prose to explain what's going on would go a long w= ay toward helping this discussion be productive.

--Richard

=C2=A0

<= /u>

The longer answer is embedded i= n the previous mails, for convenience I reiterate some of the items.=

=C2=A0

  1. A property like energy consumption is not bi= nary, but the smaller the message overhead the better, primarily because it= makes the messages fit into smaller frame sizes but also because of per byte power consumption which is noticeable i= n some radio technologies. Fitting into frame size means avoiding a step up= in power consumption due to transmission overhead not related to the paylo= ad, and also having fewer packets that may be corrupted and result in retransmission with additional power c= onsumption. For example, LoRaWAN has a packet size for DR0-2 (51 bytes, in = practice a few bytes less), in which we can fit all messages with EDHOC PSK= ECHDE. While EDHOC messages are small, we certainly would welcome an even smaller handshake with the same = functionality to better handle other radio technologies and fragmentation s= chemes with even smaller frame sizes, but we=E2=80=99re not interested in s= omething less optimal.

=C2=A0

  1. As Hannes and I agree, this is not only abou= t message overhead. Memory and code size in a device are also important, sp= ecifically what is added on top of CoAP and OSCORE, which are already implemented in the targeted device. This is the = reason why EDHOC builds on CBOR and certain COSE objects. Downsizing an exi= sting protocol still means new code is needed, as using a subset of the pro= tocol does not decrease the size of existing implementations. Furthermore, changing encoding may lead to in= compatible handshake message formats: Over what are signatures made; the or= iginal encoding or the compact? If the original, then the constrained devic= e must re-encode in order to verify the signature, which adds even more to memory and flash. If the signature = is on the compact encoding, then it is not backwards compatible with since = legacy implementations cannot verify. In either case a major point with pro= filing is lost.

=C2=A0

  1. As a final point for people entering the dis= cussion late, this is not a draft coming out of the blue; there is a histor= y to consider. After the first in-room rough consensus for adoption in ACE at IETF 98 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-98-ace/ the progress of EDHOC = went into offline mode, during which the authors were tasked to work on for= mal verification (see below) and make comparison with TLS handshake. We sho= wed that there are significant differences in overhead: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-11#appendix-E.4

We have also shown that these differences have an impact on energy cons= umption and latency, and on what radio technologies can be supported (see b= elow in this mail). These properties are the results of having constrained IoT as an explicit target for the protocol. As this was not the case for t= he TLS handshake it should not come as a surprise that it may be difficult = to retrofit without changing some basic assumptions used in the security an= alysis, like removing the nonces. We are happy to deploy the result of an optimized DTLS but we don=E2=80=99= t think it is fair that such work should hold up the progress of this draft= any longer.

=C2=A0

As for the formal verification,= we were fortunate that the IT University of Copenhagen volunteered and has= now proved properties like injective agreement, secrecy and forward secrec= y to be discussed more in the interim meeting. An analysis of a previous version of the draft is here:=

https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/= formal-verification-of-ephemeral-diffie-hellman-over-cose-edhoc/16284348

(a link to the paper will be av= ailable in the agenda)

=C2=A0

We are aware of that more secur= ity analysis is needed, but would like to think that the properties listed = above are good enough for adoption. That is also one factor that would sign= ificantly increase the motivation for people to make further analysis of the security of EDHOC.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

G=C3=B6ran=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= /u>=C2=A0

G=C3= =B6ran: When these metrics talk about DTLS 1.3, do they mean that protocol = directly, unmodified?

<= /u>=C2=A0

One = alternative approach people have had in mind is the idea of re-encoding / p= rofiling down DTLS so that although it is syntactically different and maybe= has fewer options, it encodes the same underlying AKE.=C2=A0 Has that path has been explored?

<= /u>=C2=A0

On t= he one hand, if it succeeds in slimming down DTLS to an acceptable point, i= t would obviate the need for a whole bunch of new analysis.=C2=A0 On the ot= her hand, if it fails, then it should highlight the specific things EDHOC has done differently, so that analysis can be fo= cused on those things.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Than= ks,

--Ri= chard

<= /u>=C2=A0

On M= on, Feb 4, 2019 at 10:41 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran= .selander@ericsson.com> wrote:=

Hi H= annes, secdispatch, and ace,

(It seems Hannes original mail only went to secdispatch.)

Apologies for a long mail, and late response. I had to ask some people for = help with calculations, see end of this mail.

On 2019-01-25, 15:15, "Secdispatch on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig"= ; <secdispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&g= t; wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fwd to SecDispatch since it was only posted on the SecDir lis= t

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig= @arm.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 14:07
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@a= rm.com>; Jim Schaad <i= etf@augustcellars.com>; secdir@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: RE: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A minor follow-up: I mentioned that I am aware of a company u= sing the energy scavenging devices and it turns out that this information i= s actually public and there is even a short video on YouTube. The company w= e worked with is called Alphatronics and here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DJHpJV_CPYb4

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As you can hear in the video we have been using our Mbed OS t= ogether with our device management solution (LwM2M with DTLS and CoAP) for = these types of devices.

[GS] Nice application of LwM2M. The showcased device didn't seem very c= onstrained though, ARM Cortex M4?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: secdir <secdir-bounces@ietf.org= > On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 13:52
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com= >; secdir@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Re: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 what we are doing here is making an optimizatio= n. For some (unknown reason) we have focused our attention to the over-the-= wire transmission overhead (not code size, RAM utilization, or developer us= ability*).

[GS] Exactly my point, it is not enough with reducing transmission overhead= . We should also look at additional memory, flash, and configuration effort= . These parameters are of course implementation dependent but can to some e= xtent be inferred by bulk of specification and what pre-existing code can be reused.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 We are doing this optimization mostly based on = information about what other people tell us rather than based on our experi= ence. The problem is that we have too few people with hands-on knowledge an= d/or deployment experience and if they have that experience they may not like to talk about it. So, we are stepping around = in the dark and mostly perceived problems.

[GS] I don't think this rhetoric is very helpful. Who are "us"= ;? The co-workers you quote below, are they "us" or the "oth= er people"? The people active in 6tisch, lpwan or 6lo who are supporti= ng the work on an optimized key exchange, are they "us" or the &q= uot;other people"?


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Hannes]=C2=A0 Having said that I would like to provide a few = remarks to your list below:

=C2=A0 [Jim]=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 Low-power devices that either are battery= based or scavenge power, these devices pay a power penalty for every byte = of data sent and thus have a desire for the smallest messages possible.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] Low power is a very complex topic since it is a syst= em issue and boiling it down to the transmission overhead of every byte is = an oversimplification. You are making certain assumptions of how power cons= umption of radio technologies work, which will be hard to verify. I have been working on power measurements recently= (but only focused on power measurements of crypto, see https://community.arm.com/arm-research/b/articles/posts/testin= g-crypto-performance-and-power-consumption)= .

[GS] These kind of power measurements of crypto are part of the explanation= for why transmission overhead is important to reduce. Optimizations and ha= rdware support make the crypto contribution to power consumption possible t= o handle, so that there is no reason to deviate from the use of current best practice crypto in security protoc= ols even for constrained devices. The energy cost for transmission, however= , is a strongly coupled to the laws of physics which sets a limit for how m= uch they can be optimized.

[Hannes] I doubt that many people on this list nor in the IETF have a lot o= f experience in this field to use this as a basic for an optimization.

[GS] There are people in 6tisch, lpwan and 6lo who knows about power consum= ption and constrained characteristics. Some of them were supporting EDHOC i= n ACE when you were chair.

[Hannes]=C2=A0 =C2=A0My co-workers, who are active in this space, tell me t= hat there is nothing like a "per byte" linear relationship (for s= mall quantities of data) in terms of energy cost. Obviously if you trigger = "an additional transmission", which requires you to ramp up a PLL, turn on radio amplifiers, send lengthy preambles etc then t= he incremental cost of sending 64 bytes in that packet vs 16 bytes might be= immeasurable small. The critical thing appears to be how long the RF ampli= fiers are powered on. Hence, you will often see publications that tell you that waiting for incoming packet= s is actually the most expensive task (in terms of power consumption).

[GS] Energy consumption generally increases with message overhead in wirele= ss systems. This function is different for different radio technologies, da= ta rates, etc. Even if we pick a certain technology like 6tisch, LoRaWAN or= NB-IoT, events like packet loss and retransmission impacts the result. So indeed, this is complicated, but= we can still make general claims as well as estimates of particular techno= logies. I asked a colleague to make some power consumption estimates for NB= -IoT devices. NB-IoT is licensed spectrum, which implies that the devices are allowed to transmit at a high= er power compared to unlicensed spectrum. It also means that the applicatio= n provider in general does not control how good the coverage is, since that= depends on location of base station and environment. A comparison [3] between DTLS 1.3 and EDHOC is given at t= he end of this mail, but just because you mentioned the incremental cost of= a device sending 64 vs 16 bytes, the difference is indeed measurable: 992 = mJ vs 479 mJ, i.e. half a Joule of difference in a case of low coverage (see [3]).

[GS]: About cost for listening: there are different techniques for decreasi= ng time to listen, like time slots, DRX etc. These are examples of where th= e radio guys can be innovative and make optimizations, in contrast to trans= mission overhead for security where they just have to accept what the security people decided.

=C2=A0 [Jim]=C2=A0 2. CoAP over SMS:=C2=A0 SMS has a 140 byte packet size.= =C2=A0 There are two approaches for dealing with packets of larger than 140= bytes:=C2=A0 1) There is a method of appending multiple packets together t= o form a single larger packet.=C2=A0 2) You can use CoAP blockwise transfer.=C2=A0 Using CoAP blockwise would result in 128 byte packets for = the underlying transfer assuming that only 12 bytes are needed for the CoAP= header itself.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] It turns out that CoAP over SMS is rarely used for d= elivering data of IP-based devices since SMS is a pretty expensive transpor= t. From my work in the OMA I know that people use SMS to trigger the wake-u= p of devices and then switch to regular data transmission over IP. IMHO optimizing for use cases that barely anyone=C2= =A0 uses appears to be a waste of time.

[GS]=C2=A0 I strongly disagree with the general argument that what is curre= ntly applied is the only thing that is worth working on. One problem with t= his type of argument is that it reinforces the existing limitations and bec= omes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that key exchange protocol messages currently does not fit into an SM= S contributes to the reason why it is not so much used. More SMSs also adds= to cost, but the cost depends on the agreement with the operator so is not= necessarily a hard limitation. Who are we to predict what technology will used given a more efficient key= exchange protocol? For EDHOC with PSK or RPK, each message fits into one S= MS.


=C2=A0[Jim]=C2=A0 =C2=A03. 6LoPan over IEEE 802.15.4:=C2=A0 This has a pack= et size of 127 bytes.=C2=A0 The maximum frame overhead size is 25 bytes all= owing for 102 bytes of message
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 space.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If one assumes 20 bytes of overhead for Co= AP then this means a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol packet size of 82 bytes.=C2=A0 If one needs to break= the message across multiple packets then the maximum data size is going to= be 64 bytes using CoAP blockwise options.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Hannes] For some reason there seems to be the worry that a s= mall MTU size at the link layer will cause a lot of problems. There are som= e radios that have this small MTU size, IEEE 802.15.4 and Bluetooth Low Ene= rgy belong to them. It turns out, however, that higher layers then offer fragmentation and reassembly support so that= higher layers just don't get to see any of this. In IEEE 802.15.4 this= fragmentation & reassembly support is offered by 6lowpan and in case o= f Bluetooth Low Energy the link layer actually consists of various sub-protocols. One of them offers fragmentation & = reassembly. As such, the problem you describe is actually not a problem. Th= ere is no reason why you always have to put a single application layer payl= oad into a single link layer frame.=C2=A0 We have been using LwM2M (which uses DTLS and CoAP) over IEEE 802.15.4 net= works successfully for big commercial deployments. We have not run into pro= blems with the smaller MTU size at the lower layers.

[GS] I'm happy to hear you don=E2=80=99t experience any problems, but M= TU sizes does matter. If message overhead at a higher layer causes fragment= ation at a lower layer, instead of only powering up the radio and sending t= he physical preamble once, it will be necessary to do that once per each fragment in the next transmission opportunity at = the MAC layer. On top of this wireless links can be quite lossy, particular= ly with low-power radios like what is used e.g. with 6tisch. For example, P= acket Delivery Ratio (PDR) that you will typically find indoors with 802.15.4 radios is 60-80% [1]. Now, w= hen you pass from this single frame to multiple fragments, you also exponen= tially increase the probability that one of those fragments will get lost a= nd that it needs to be=C2=A0 retransmitted. It often occurs that the endpoint performing the reassembly of the fragmen= ts just drops the whole thing in case one of the fragments gets lost. This = then results in retransmissions of all fragments at the sending endpoint, t= heir link-layer retransmissions, etc, all employing the costly radio operations that you describe. Having t= his handled by "lower layer" only means that the application deve= loper does not have to handle it himself, but the energy penalty for the sy= stem does not go away!

[GS] Fragmentation also adds to latency in several ways. E.g. for LoRaWAN w= hich operates on unlicensed band, in Europe 868 MHz, there is the concept o= f 1% duty cycle meaning that for each transmission the device must wait 100= times as long interval as message sending time before it is allowed to transmit again. LoRaWAN is currently = PSK based and this is one example where a key exchange protocol would impro= ve the overall security both in the case of PSK and RPK, see [2] for an ana= lysis using EDHOC with PSK ECDHE.

[GS] A comparison [4] of time on air between DTLS 1.3 handshake and EDHOC a= re given at the end of the mail. Since for LoRaWAN the maximum MTU is 242 b= ytes, DTLS handshake with RPK ECHDE does not even fit and would require som= e fragmentation scheme (+ the 100 times additional delay). Depending on radio conditions, the higher data ra= tes associated with 242 bytes may incur too much packet loss requiring the = use of a lower data rate with associated lower frame size and even more sev= ere message overhead restrictions to avoid fragmentation.

=C2=A0 [Hannes]=C2=A0 When it comes to energy scavenging devices then it be= comes even more challenging since this is a more rarely used case. I know a= bout one company doing this and I have spoken with a researchers at last ye= ar's Arm research summit who show-cased one device. The device shown by the researcher was a prototype and didn't = use any Internet protocol nor a security mechanism. I wouldn't call mys= elf knowledgeable enough to optimize a system based on this experience but = maybe you have more expertise in this field. I am happy to learn more.

[GS] As mentioned in my previous mail, the scope of this work is about opti= mizing security for deployments that can support some kind of CoAP stack, e= .g. CoAP/UDP/IP or CoAP over some link technology.


[Hannes] The handshake itself is just a very small part of the overall size= of data that gets transmitted during the lifetime of the device since the = handshake obviously happens extremely rarely.

[GS] How often a handshake is invoked is application dependent, it could fo= r example be the result of the device needs to power off, or because the de= vice reboots. If one handshake consumes as much energy as months of normal = operations, then this contribution may well be noticeable in the lifetime of the battery.

[Hannes] There are much better ways to optimize traffic and you obviously h= ave to look at all the data you are transmitting for the device.

[GS] How much further optimization you can do is application dependent, and= for some applications security overhead matters.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ciao
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hannes

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *: In my experience the ability for developers to easily use = any of the performance optimization techniques is the biggest barrier for g= aining performance. Of course, this does not fit nicely in any of the stand= ardization efforts in the IETF so the focus has to be somewhere else.

[GS] The need for performance optimizations depends on the design of the pr= otocol, so there are definitely efforts in the IETF which can make the life= easier for developers.

[GS] Now for the comparisons:

NB-IoT
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Calculations of energy consumption for NB-IoT comparing EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 = handshake is given in [3]

PSK + ECDHE (normal coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 47 mJ
EDHOC: 19 mJ

PSK + ECDHE (low coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 2992 mJ
EDHOC: 912 mJ


RPK + ECDHE (normal coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 64 mJ
EDHOC: 29 mJ

RPK + ECDHE (low coverage)
----------------
DTLS 1.3 handshake: 4326 mJ
EDHOC: 1677 mJ


We see that the factor 4 in message overhead with PSK ECDHE between DTLS 1.= 3 handshake and EDHOC (appendix E of EDHOC) is translated to a factor 2.5-3= .3 in energy consumption for a NB-IoT device depending on coverage. Analogo= usly the factor 3 in message overhead with RPK ECDHE is translated into a factor 2.2 - 2.6 in energy consumption= .


LoRaWAN
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Calculations of time-of-air of handshake of EDHOC and DTLS 1.3 for LoRaWAN = is given in [4]

PSK + ECDHE
----------------
DTLS 1.3
Message #1: 564 ms
Message #2: 574 ms
Message #3: 226 ms

EDHOC:
Message #1: 195 ms
Message #2: 205 ms
Message #3: 113 ms

RPK + ECDHE
-----------------
DTLS 1.3: N/A without fragmentation scheme

EDHOC:
Message #1: 184 ms
Message #2: 389 ms
Message #3: 297 ms

As mentioned above, the time-on-air is an important property for LoRaWAN de= ployments since it both relates to power consumption and latency, in partic= ular due to duty cycles.


Summary
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
There is a lot that speaks in favor of low message overhead, for example
* Smaller per-byte contribution to power consumption, which has significant= impact in e.g. licensed spectrum
* Less latency, in particular due to duty cycles in LoRaWAN
* Better fit into MTUs with less fragmentation and associated overhead
* Smaller probability of packet loss

The comparisons presented here show that DTLS 1.3 is far from optimal. Let = me reiterate that this should not be interpreted as a criticism against TLS= /DTLS. We are targeting applications in constrained environments which the = TLS handshake was explicitly not designed to optimize for. We agree that for many IoT applications the perf= ormance of the handshake is adequate, so there is no need to change DTLS. W= e also agree that message overhead is only one aspect, and it is really imp= ortant to look at other aspects such as memory, code footprint and usability, which all speak in favor of = a protocol with limited functionality and which reuses existing code in the= devices such as CBOR and COSE. For certain application providers current I= ETF protocols are prohibitive in one or more of these aspects, and unless the performance is drastically im= proved some consider (still, 2019) to skip end-to-end security (e.g. termin= ate security in a gateway), make their own security protocol, or use more p= ragmatic key exchange constructions like Noise [5].

I would like to leave the comparison exercise soon and focus on the securit= y properties. I hope we have made a point that constrained characteristics = matter. Can the IETF support work on a key exchange protocol that is design= ed for the constrained IoT, or are we restricted to retrofit some other protocol with other design goals?


G=C3=B6ran


[1] Mu=C3=B1oz, Jonathan, et al. "Why Channel Hopping Makes Sense, eve= n with IEEE802. 15.4 OFDM at 2.4 GHz." 2018 Global Internet of Things = Summit (GIoTS). IEEE, 2018.
[2] Sanchez-Iborra, Ramon, et al., "Enhancing LoRaWAN Security through= a Lightweight and Authenticated Key Management Approach", Sensors, 20= 18
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic= les/PMC6021899/
[3] NB-IoT power consumption comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3
https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/NB%20IoT%20po= wer%20consumption.xlsx
[4] LoRaWAN Time-of-Air comparison EDHOC-DTLS 1.3
https://github.c= om/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/docs/LoRaWAN_ToA.xlsx
[5] The Noise Protocol Framework
http://www.noiseprotocol.org/<= br>

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secd= ispatch

--0000000000001e38130581f123fd-- From nobody Sun Feb 17 17:35:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706B5130E84; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 17:35:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6xYzpE2Oz62; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 17:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DCE130E7C; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 17:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448A0380BE; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id A9316D7E; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C57C9A; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:35:05 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Richard Barnes cc: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3FUTF-8=3FQ=3FG=3DC3=3DB6ran=5FSelander=3F=3D?= , "secdispatch\@ietf.org" , "ace\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 01:35:11 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Richard Barnes wrote: > Finally, to be totally honest, I find the EDHOC spec pretty inscrutable. A > little more prose to explain what's going on would go a long way toward > helping this discussion be productive. Sure. Find a WG to adopt it, and we can make the text beautiful. The packets are all there, and the references pretty much explain all the crypto. This stuff is not any newer than IKEv2. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlxqC8kACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVFSgf/XmQOPfI4yQBppSocKLhqSkkPK2DYCj+gff4+IEbR+I/y7u6y+JYyHDkn bi7YK3UlU2oNrorSNjsiLmQpkMlfoOmXweNYR3uiJY/HR+BetcyHeiJ/30FOc3Ge Piihfx5+0D/elLQj4E7a/OKWxvbXx6HJ7sDT7GID7fd1MuG4YzbJFUIsxv+QpKyq S+RP35LaMW87Tc9tsk8W6/yQM5p2SnuzFpjvSjP3LBHRltpoUukSKuwCUF2MMAvm VVQO5MoTKV+gXbZunNpXYia76N74ucFiVX6u42+D8JliXH0ssD8BkIJ+rZnfW/Qx R6TAguKcMPHnqbpB/qGU9PMrZF02eg== =beob -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Feb 17 23:07:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6841276D0; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2xVBzLsIvPP; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD96C1228B7; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id u21so11493449lfu.1; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=ZBc2JiGCY8yBztskJre/C1m9U+98qbX36XWZs0IFNf4=; b=Y2YftUtOxyZdvlc+Ar6ecgEIkAQVgOOtwSfhfYxwh4ZM6q2b8abhLkupDOY+qKmEoq ThJ4c2YfGEnNSNykvsXAD/AmetzwB+9PyfuvjyC+yeb+3lpmkn5UAwG9Y1TBLXU47sko kBqYeTLR5i6e/98nIDzpXP9C0YoCPWJd8JcKxkui+c6mPOyM4gbwAYdgofWPtNy5VQOu njAt1I6W5NEeiEbKlw9MAnOHPpLjQqvV06XE7a1N11cabrjAS3BHOD/WQVELftCH4HHm v2ecVMVshAUgskJIptwlmZoMqrqQ367fk/LKgdvKIMvEyFPymYt7zZ9O4yMSqQNfiCgf aGqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=ZBc2JiGCY8yBztskJre/C1m9U+98qbX36XWZs0IFNf4=; b=FjG6bTLGXYeC7DEMN0zjRDwR+jiPu5yJB067D92sN2DIowYjtPMeRWP4T9WFYl5zGm Tt2REdi+XEgws7dcv0Qw9GIKwjrCv8hOnw6xRMQYYWj1BHv9GxYR+/FiqSEwNHv2TMK7 q08JsOtCDvCKa8z4UHVCRL5SuF5f5phko/m5Dp3fGV1BgyJQ7eCnfS1ZK7v6WbelDWX3 YfenOVf7K6ZDr/AsDyQ5kOZexE1jUm1QtqvATOwrepRJrYCqxkaLOn1fC0A4P53z4ku5 DMSgE4mDTwDL4rsKjarz2KrDyLmboTqMmYfjOu72JQjWFQ4qcnN2BW3vAWYAvPH06yco x9gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZgMBSd9ibBVs8zz4tu7am2OqEvOW1R/MmS9h7W1w0dzPpKEx5A LXmoNYfoZjlOCMLfoB0//Eqlu1B7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY+dwUaEuC3ymZ2sB0Npjt4x8Bavs2bZzl1Yxss6uulGBje7ZBVZ0hEemG9UhQ5K+fPKh5LrA== X-Received: by 2002:a19:6e0b:: with SMTP id j11mr12642970lfc.124.1550473626606; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from buildpc ([82.138.51.4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l72sm3546875lfg.75.2019.02.17.23.07.05 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Valery Smyslov" To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'Richard Barnes'" Cc: '=?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?=' , , References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> <12390.1550453705@localhost> In-Reply-To: <12390.1550453705@localhost> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 10:07:05 +0300 Message-ID: <01f601d4c758$8e9d25e0$abd771a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGUr/RRE8LCsN9xtsl6weR5tpA+UAIeiej4AoQBM8oCW2amOQMoEywnphQcPCA= Content-Language: ru Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 07:07:10 -0000 Hi, > Richard Barnes wrote: > > Finally, to be totally honest, I find the EDHOC spec pretty inscrutable. A > > little more prose to explain what's going on would go a long way toward > > helping this discussion be productive. > > Sure. > Find a WG to adopt it, and we can make the text beautiful. > The packets are all there, and the references pretty much explain all the crypto. > This stuff is not any newer than IKEv2. I have only a quick look over the draft, but one thing strikes me - the protocol is claimed not to bound to a particular transport (so I assume that implementing it on top of pure UDP is fine), and it has an odd number of messages. That's OK from cryptographic point of view, but it's a headache for implementations if the transport protocol is unreliable, since in this case retransmissions must be sent by both parties. We learned this lesson from IKEv1 (Aggressive and Quick modes) and in IKEv2 the number of messages in any exchange is always even, that simplifies implementations and makes protocol more reliable. Of course if only reliable transports are considered, then this doesn't matter. Regards, Valery Smyslov. 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IAk2NDUNCj5FREhPQyAgICBSUEsgKyBFQ0RIRSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDM3ICAgICAgICAx MjAgICAgICAgIDg1ICAgICAtICAgCTI0Mg0KPi0tPiBFREhPQyBwYXJhbGxlbCBmbG93CQkgICAg ICA3MCAgICAgICAgIDcwICAgICAgICA1NSAgICAgNTUgICAgMjUwDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Feb 18 09:03:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28DBE129A85 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 09:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com 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23:00:36 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857CB165@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857CB165marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] SecDispatch Virtual Interim on March 5, 2019 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:00:43 -0000 --_002_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857CB165marathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello WG! Based on your input on scheduling, a SecDispatch Virtual Interim will conve= ne on Tuesday, March 5, 2019 from 1530 - 1700 UTC. Thank you for your flex= ibility in finding this date/time and our apologizes for those that we coul= d not accommodate. The draft agenda is below: --[ Meeting Information ]-- Security Dispatch (Secdispatch) WG Virtual Interim Agenda Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1530 - 1700 UTC =3D=3D[ Agenda ]=3D=3D (1) Opening (chairs) ** Introductions ** SecDispath Process Overview ** Framing the EDHOC Discussion https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe/ (2) Problem Statement ** Motivating use case(s) for EDHOC (Goran Selander) ** Requirements of EDHOC use cases (Goran Selander) (3) EDHOC as a Solution ** EDHOC security and non-security objectives (Goran Selander) ** Protocol design (Goran Selander) (4) Analysis of Alternatives ** Benchmarking current solutions and EDHOC (Goran Selander + Jim Schaad) (5) Formal Verification of EDHOC (Alessanro Bruni + ITU Copenhagen Team) (6) Open Mic (all) and Next Steps (chairs) =3D=3D[ Participation ]=3D=3D Meeting Number: 640 410 560 Meeting Password: NMESeM7y=20 Meeting Link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm9c46ced5a864cc7a44c= a4960e4fd6f0a Audio connection: 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 640 410 560 --[ end ]-- Regards, Roman and Richard --_002_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857CB165marathon_ Content-Type: text/calendar; name="Webex_Meeting.ics" Content-Description: Webex_Meeting.ics Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Webex_Meeting.ics"; size=3533; creation-date="Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:47:31 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:44:12 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QkVHSU46VkNBTEVOREFSDQpQUk9ESUQ6LS8vTWljcm9zb2Z0IENvcnBvcmF0aW9uLy9PdXRsb29r IDEwLjAgTUlNRURJUi8vRU4NClZFUlNJT046Mi4wDQpNRVRIT0Q6UkVRVUVTVA0KQkVHSU46VlRJ TUVaT05FDQpUWklEOkVhc3Rlcm4gVGltZQ0KQkVHSU46U1RBTkRBUkQNCkRUU1RBUlQ6MjAxNzEx MDFUMDIwMDAwDQpSUlVMRTpGUkVRPVlFQVJMWTtJTlRFUlZBTD0xO0JZREFZPTFTVTtCWU1PTlRI PTExDQpUWk9GRlNFVEZST006LTA0MDANClRaT0ZGU0VUVE86LTA1MDANClRaTkFNRTpTdGFuZGFy ZCBUaW1lDQpFTkQ6U1RBTkRBUkQNCkJFR0lOOkRBWUxJR0hUDQpEVFNUQVJUOjIwMTcwMzAxVDAy 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<010a01d4c83b$a75b6f40$f6124dc0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGUr/RRE8LCsN9xtsl6weR5tpA+UAIeiej4AoQBM8oCW2amOQMoEywnATA688wCvmGpV6X2bE1Q Content-Language: ru Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:13:03 -0000 Hi G=C3=B6ran, > Current version of EDHOC is 3-pass to allow traffic data after one = round trip, > which reduces latency in many applications. > A 4-pass version has also been discussed: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/ZDHYEhvI0PenU6nGrhGlULIz0oQ >=20 > When EDHOC is used as key exchange for OSCORE, and also in other = settings, > EDHOC will commonly run on top of CoAP. For example, in 6tisch the = join > protocol relies on CoAP proxy functionality. CoAP is defined for = reliable > transport (RFC 8323) as well as UDP (RFC 7252), the latter handles > retransmissions by client and server. An example of using EDHOC with = CoAP is > given in appendix D.1: > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-11#appendix-D.1= >=20 > It sounds like we should add some considerations for the setting you = outline. > Do you have an example or pointer explaining the specific problem in = more > detail? In the current EDHOC draft the initiators sends the last (third) message = of AKE and then immediately starts sending encrypted data (note, that he has almost = always something to send, because it is he who initiates secure connection with responder). If = this third message is lost or the packets are reordered, then the responder will = start receiving encrypted data from the peer he hasn't authenticated yet. The responder = in this case has two options - either discard incoming encrypted data or buffer = it in hope that the last EDHOC message will come shortly. Both alternatives are bad = -=20 either it impacts application protocol or opens surface for DoS attack. Note, that from the initiator's point of view everything is fine, the = protocol has completed successfully, so in general the problem cannot be solved = by sending retransmissions by initiator, instead, the responder must become an active retransmitter in this case and re-send the second message to = nudge the initiator to re-send the third. This was discussed in the ipsecme WG = when IKEv2 was being designed (back to 2003-2005). So, unless you rely on a reliable transport that preserves packets = ordering, having odd number of messages significantly complicates implementations. Note also, that lacking the fourth message there is no way for the = responder to report any authentication error back to the initiator... Regards, Valery. > Thanks, > G=C3=B6ran >=20 From nobody Tue Feb 19 06:27:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFED1277D2; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 06:27:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155058647378.20788.5798139269737917409@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 06:27:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] Security Dispatch (secdispatch) WG Virtual Meeting: 2019-03-05 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:27:54 -0000 The Security Dispatch (secdispatch) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2019-03-05 from 10:30 to 12:30 America/New_York. Agenda: Security Dispatch (Secdispatch) WG Virtual Interim Agenda Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1530 - 1700 UTC ==[ Agenda ]== (1) Opening (chairs) ** Introductions ** SecDispath Process Overview ** Framing the EDHOC Discussion https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe/ (2) Problem Statement ** Motivating use case(s) for EDHOC (Goran Selander) ** Requirements of EDHOC use cases (Goran Selander) (3) EDHOC as a Solution ** EDHOC security and non-security objectives (Goran Selander) ** Protocol design (Goran Selander) (4) Analysis of Alternatives ** Benchmarking current solutions and EDHOC (Goran Selander + Jim Schaad) (5) Formal Verification of EDHOC (Alessanro Bruni + ITU Copenhagen Team) (6) Open Mic (all) and Next Steps (chairs) ==[ Participation ]== Meeting Number: 640 410 560 Meeting Password: NMESeM7y Meeting Link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m9c46ced5a864cc7a44ca4960e4fd6f0a Audio connection: 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 640 410 560 Information about remote participation: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/J0IaF2NvgCa5oDRBZageWVNB2EM From nobody Tue Feb 19 08:01:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D3F130F0F; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xXj0XeQWz9d; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88FAB130F0E; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586A338263; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2684A2687; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24949265F; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:01:12 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Valery Smyslov" cc: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3FUTF-8=3FQ=3F'G=3DC3=3DB6ran=5FSelander'=3F=3D?= , secdispatch@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <010a01d4c83b$a75b6f40$f6124dc0$@gmail.com> References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> <12390.1550453705@localhost> <01f601d4c758$8e9d25e0$abd771a0$@gmail.com> <2F99BE31-7193-4DE8-9509-4902EA8E4EBE@ericsson.com> <010a01d4c83b$a75b6f40$f6124dc0$@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:01:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Valery Smyslov wrote: >> Current version of EDHOC is 3-pass to allow traffic data after one round trip, >> which reduces latency in many applications. >> A 4-pass version has also been discussed: >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/ZDHYEhvI0PenU6nGrhGlULIz0oQ >> >> When EDHOC is used as key exchange for OSCORE, and also in other settings, >> EDHOC will commonly run on top of CoAP. For example, in 6tisch the join >> protocol relies on CoAP proxy functionality. CoAP is defined for reliable >> transport (RFC 8323) as well as UDP (RFC 7252), the latter handles >> retransmissions by client and server. An example of using EDHOC with CoAP is >> given in appendix D.1: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-11#appendix-D.1 >> >> It sounds like we should add some considerations for the setting you outline. >> Do you have an example or pointer explaining the specific problem in more >> detail? > In the current EDHOC draft the initiators sends the last (third) message of AKE and then > immediately starts sending encrypted data (note, that he has almost > always something to send, When done over CoAP, the message would be sent with CONfirmable, so it would be ACK'ed. I would make the first message CONfirmable too. That makes it much like IKEv2 is, where all messages are ACKed and the initiator is responsible for all retransmits. If someone wants to run EDHOC over another transport, then they would need to take this into account. > So, unless you rely on a reliable transport that preserves packets ordering, > having odd number of messages significantly complicates implementations. CoAP is reliable, and it does preserve packet ordering if asked to. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlxsKEcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUBXQf/RVu4JpIt3jau2dcE5uhxCJjDcH998j3JbbFTzqY7Uf4eqPHr4yZiYFzr DcVEFcebRVFOxLA1FJ4J3ipSik9di7LiWF7ebUP55T8zv5bPLOqwgBzC3pKSIkeV 3DQhybESheEGODo3MaeQlnO6gLZ/7PP+TCHjTc0G8PCdCTqTcqCezWIpXgHVWzEL pVXTsTsiPCBUk2exlfH1kZAVrU+RbOv2WaPugTlxHaPOqbkJ3JgNRCYvduykX2Jw voKYI6F8UrU0WHSM0SQGYlDZCQo9NxaxG7vGP2zqR/x/LCry+vUt//PQ17tCmlXK I4E+xrOx1L+2kwdWu5U26LUm8WkAJg== =Zxl5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Feb 19 10:02:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FE6130F6C; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:02:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:02:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Valery Smyslov" To: "'Michael Richardson'" Cc: '=?UTF-8?Q?'G=C3=B6ran_Selander'?=' , , References: <4FA72889-F601-4255-962E-9A13E932EE21@ericsson.com> <998ABFEF-7E5B-4B91-80DB-20ED43DE9A5C@ericsson.com> <12390.1550453705@localhost> <01f601d4c758$8e9d25e0$abd771a0$@gmail.com> <2F99BE31-7193-4DE8-9509-4902EA8E4EBE@ericsson.com> <010a01d4c83b$a75b6f40$f6124dc0$@gmail.com> <21416.1550592072@localhost> In-Reply-To: <21416.1550592072@localhost> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 21:01:56 +0300 Message-ID: <012001d4c87d$3502cc30$9f086490$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGUr/RRE8LCsN9xtsl6weR5tpA+UAIeiej4AoQBM8oCW2amOQMoEywnATA688wCvmGpVwEr/bj8Aix08PCl3BvTQA== Content-Language: ru Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [Ace] FW: [secdir] EDHOC and Transports X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:02:18 -0000 Hi Michael, > When done over CoAP, the message would be sent with CONfirmable, so it > would be ACK'ed. I would make the first message CONfirmable too. > > That makes it much like IKEv2 is, where all messages are ACKed and the > initiator is responsible for all retransmits. Sure, there must be no problems with COAP or other reliable transport. > If someone wants to run EDHOC over another transport, then they would > need to take this into account. That was my point. Regards, Valery. > > So, unless you rely on a reliable transport that preserves packets ordering, > > having odd number of messages significantly complicates > implementations. > > CoAP is reliable, and it does preserve packet ordering if asked to. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- From nobody Tue Feb 19 12:04:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC2C129A85; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmjm_2rsytOW; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1954E12894E; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id f2so17831591edy.13; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kBNBNIFPcwU4wj25UqXUz8Ca72YFHi0oqdkC7AJdPZM=; b=vCV2prm6xUDgis843+kAW82pbiyWHOXySOwgX1/8Uur/bEESfzU+Y8r+I+fumhlWft LhP+/RwgcGw8gRTM/YNv7FACE7dDzgvnViQ1r1eU2ZhlWGD81y2Iawi8ryNrkykV2MyJ Xt3DzHnJX/FAd77Kem6+zTbP26b2/lKt3nrjtp90nJa2UPpUJ32kbixVel0J7yrYV0B8 sj7kAS+DH6j/WaJsPjhftzh0+WmHZEV5k0tOJECgfRuoEv+1OZfGEyGXFpVKJc9MguSN rtLkVZBXND3J+yeR0cF9vrJx5lFXoTcYCB2ubo04Y/ztfnF7XcTUhH7hWnIymrvaeai7 marA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=kBNBNIFPcwU4wj25UqXUz8Ca72YFHi0oqdkC7AJdPZM=; b=NPnLhnGV2MyKFD6lzymViHeaI3n43W4Hv1ZAlwM8PDp9uxXj7oHsX7U84bXX6Sb83n I2qTINjuAyzt7G2aEjhfJewrmcPpBGdTaS69FG51r+vg0I1c8orF8HLUp5AXAsYhwALg CC46Mr+hvU2S25ut+tPYjfwO/0WmS3F78X0nHfdQp02jU37YJqEdKOc+56Y6W/1PYwZs /DVh8MQcmqwtaSgFPVGKcAQCW+VFVK3CnJiYHUmWY0nvn8oqkDKsFcIYQINPFmQgs1eQ AZGrsNZ4EDrmu+9bInDLr6PY/I0tb+Ee0dIZgwT3+meJ+MNfbaUSInFwA1WJjZmhcSHC r4Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuahuepc36Ktlrj9LNpT0K5gQQC6q8qzua813IaJr4mkGiAh4XAY TUdnUygDcw72G/Oehxjr7Ro6UlSXi2Ad8Q1jfmOroT70 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZKSvuhVp5IWg0L53pAiu79Kz5zf0BmVEb44N9NTA/Y+qBDgaQx6tiiIQw2ISuCHOkIRLcx7DTLOTFSqVNMzrI= X-Received: by 2002:a50:98a6:: with SMTP id j35mr24479763edb.141.1550606658347; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Dmitry Belyavsky Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:04:06 +0300 Message-ID: To: TLS Mailing List , secdispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ea858058244bf6e" Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 20:04:22 -0000 --0000000000000ea858058244bf6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, Please take a look at an initial submission of the draft. The draft describes a Fake SNI mechanism intended to cheat DPI systems in a case when a DPI system blocks the connection if ESNI is present. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:43 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt To: Dmitry Belyavskiy A new version of I-D, draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Dmitry Belyavskiy and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-belyavskiy-fakesni Revision: 00 Title: Fake Server Name Indication Document date: 2019-02-19 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 3 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni Abstract: The document provides a specification of the Fake Server Name Indication. Being implemented, the Fake SNI specification provides a way to work around the monitoring solutions without providing any additional information to external observers. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky --0000000000000ea858058244bf6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Please take a look at an initial= submission of the draft.
The draft describes a Fake SNI mechanis= m intended to cheat DPI systems in a=C2=A0case=C2=A0
when a DPI s= ystem blocks the connection if ESNI is present.

---------- Forwarded message -= --------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date:= Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:43 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for dra= ft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt
To: Dmitry Belyavskiy <beldmit@gmail.com>


A new version of I-D, draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt
has been= successfully submitted by Dmitry Belyavskiy and posted to the
IETF repo= sitory.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-belyavskiy-fakesni<= br>Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Fake Server Name Indication
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-02-19Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/= internet-drafts/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-belyavskiy-fakesni/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-belya= vskiy-fakesni-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-belyavski= y-fakesni


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The document provides a specification of the = Fake Server Name
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Indication.=C2=A0 Being implemented, the F= ake SNI specification provides a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0way to work around the mon= itoring solutions without providing any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional informat= ion to external observers.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--
SY, D= mitry Belyavsky
--0000000000000ea858058244bf6e-- From nobody Tue Feb 19 19:44:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAA0129619; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:44:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=auckland.ac.nz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytq0oihp4mAQ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz (mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.125.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB91712E7C1; 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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 16:43:56 +1300 Received: from uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.5]) by uxcn13-ogg-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.5]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 16:43:56 +1300 From: Peter Gutmann To: Dmitry Belyavsky , TLS Mailing List , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUyI5pabpF922zn0mI1OlKDvKL0qXoC8MR Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:43:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1550634231892.18369@cs.auckland.ac.nz> References: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-NZ X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:44:08 -0000 Dmitry Belyavsky writes:=0A= =0A= >The draft describes a Fake SNI mechanism intended to cheat DPI systems in = a=0A= >case when a DPI system blocks the connection if ESNI is present.=0A= =0A= Since this mechanism advertises the fact that a fake SNI is present, wouldn= 't=0A= the DPI then also block the connection for that?=0A= =0A= Peter.=0A= =0A= From nobody Tue Feb 19 23:01:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E621294FA; 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:01:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1550634231892.18369@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <1550634231892.18369@cs.auckland.ac.nz> From: Dmitry Belyavsky Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:01:34 +0300 Message-ID: To: Peter Gutmann Cc: TLS Mailing List , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000481f4205824dee5e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:01:50 -0000 --000000000000481f4205824dee5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Peter, On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 6:43 AM Peter Gutmann wrote: > Dmitry Belyavsky writes: > > >The draft describes a Fake SNI mechanism intended to cheat DPI systems in > a > >case when a DPI system blocks the connection if ESNI is present. > > Since this mechanism advertises the fact that a fake SNI is present, > wouldn't > the DPI then also block the connection for that? > The suggested mechanism does not advertise the presence of a Fake SNI. Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band for the handshake and an observer has to discover that ClientHello message contains a SNI extension that does not match to any host present at the IP address where we try to connect. Passive collection and blocking the Fake SNI values also has little sense because the value can be changed relatively easily. -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky --000000000000481f4205824dee5e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Peter,

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 6:43 A= M Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs= .auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
Dmitry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com> writes:

>The draft describes a Fake SNI mechanism intended to cheat DPI syst= ems in a
>case when a DPI system blocks the connection if ESNI is pre= sent.

Since this mechanism advertises the fact that a fake SNI is present, wo= uldn't
the DPI then also block the connection for that?

The suggested mechanism does not advertise the pres= ence=C2=A0of a Fake SNI.=C2=A0
Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band = for the handshake and an observer has to discover
that ClientHell= o message contains a SNI extension that does not match to any host
present at the IP address where we try to connect.

Passive collection and blocking the Fake SNI values also has little sens= e
because the value can be changed relatively easily.
<= br>
--
SY, Dmitry= Belyavsky
--000000000000481f4205824dee5e-- From nobody Tue Feb 19 23:26:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF879130DC2; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=auckland.ac.nz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HYfDWJXwGmr8; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz (mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.125.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 099B112F1A2; 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:35:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1550634231892.18369@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <1550647276159.53158@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <1550647276159.53158@cs.auckland.ac.nz> From: Dmitry Belyavsky Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:35:34 +0300 Message-ID: To: Peter Gutmann Cc: TLS Mailing List , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e0e10105824e67eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:35:50 -0000 --000000000000e0e10105824e67eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:21 AM Peter Gutmann wrote: > Dmitry Belyavsky writes: > > >Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band for the handshake > > But then won't the DPI check the out-of-band source as well? If you've > got a > MITM sitting there then they can do the same lookups and whatnot that the > client does, unless you're relying on the client being off-path, which > seems a > bit of a leap. You'd need to implement it via some sort of subliminal > signalling mechanism that the DPI can't detect. > > In fact if DPI begins to poll domains whether FakeSNI record is present, we have a race between changing the value in FakeSNI and DPI polling. And DoH/DoT ensures that DPI has to poll. -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky --000000000000e0e10105824e67eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:21 AM Pete= r Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckl= and.ac.nz> wrote:
Dmitry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com> writes:

>Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band for the handshake

But then won't the DPI check the out-of-band source as well?=C2=A0 = If you've got a
MITM sitting there then they can do the same lookups= and whatnot that the
client does, unless you're relying on the clie= nt being off-path, which seems a
bit of a leap.=C2=A0 You'd need to = implement it via some sort of subliminal
signalling mechanism that the D= PI can't detect.

=C2=A0
In fact if DPI begins to poll domain= s whether FakeSNI record is present,
we have a race between chang= ing the value in FakeSNI and DPI polling.=C2=A0
And DoH/DoT ensur= es that DPI has to poll.


--
SY, Dmitry Belyavsky
--000000000000e0e10105824e67eb-- From nobody Wed Feb 20 03:06:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F91124B0C; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:06:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mrRXKhIl0fsP; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 797F612DDA3; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id j89so10106091edb.9; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:06:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HzSX3Q+rFzHbR5GhhBiQ5kLhu+EPgFAVL7k0WUVz4nI=; b=ckLWU1RsDfzkzBRjOLfypD/I2e6HRR3kh/dMhWntx+MJLJ2hKp9IC4yCTeP84VrcYV O966fCfsnnmBPlH4rku43CLfT7sA4MhZFrRzMrzF8F8P0xN5dzxSI9q3wI9eYCt+mGL7 fah6A/sn1Xbww2f351N+fHjm+oQqA0Uu1PhektmtFoPdh1FbWi4f8lFLWeU1Kb3cHXlf gkGh8vykjmhR3rhm+X60Lt2m2pXxjiJNWBPLwtiZE8SUHmqGHpby/EaOOidV+wvnYtlH fb6NfXfCWQV4xGXJJnEo5k6FGP0OgVKRvN2EclR3A3rQTf9G72CyxzYffPE/0ZDCpfNu FBEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HzSX3Q+rFzHbR5GhhBiQ5kLhu+EPgFAVL7k0WUVz4nI=; b=Q5f6zOxr87NSrnAPOrs7VNStg6RDDuZvaaep6S+HRNZP4K8uXHUzueYCYxZ0aTfQEH F0ldaVmleigYedo/J8ST+sTSGiid0aF3opsYCWasMiOQ553s6py8dW/HRf3lK8aN9C9n clImzLkdVR42/A1h15NcfMbWUYUG4JPYS3Zk+5ShE05guSoVDJApvNYxu4Z0TwjU7+jH 08UrikPJWMdt8Y2qkLuOy4Ydvc/a0rZs/DsGATNSqPYzx+TpXwOKbCVaE2G8rQ6EPwhq Pwj5qhsiBHIGyPPLDUVxD1zrPikTM8yTP3IVtnKtHmcOqcOSE3dY/VKR/83aDP3s8Lhg JCVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZeN1BxmtLAE9sC3N3lb1WhkkGjDjTjMs/fdfBvgBH1wA1/CSgZ lqOtt2Z4UKpkTG3BzquwT5GsoO73nQcZAqgajUU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IapKPELsuAcrkE6rNRarNBIsY2DhEPQnlyIp8vpaEFYtaxdzTsuS0jDTdYKTr656X9vzl7OQaAexoq6ISZxrjY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:b6f4:: with SMTP id f49mr1667322ede.80.1550660782820; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:06:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155060540091.20709.12797700493315209480.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1550634231892.18369@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <1550647276159.53158@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: From: Dmitry Belyavsky Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:06:20 +0300 Message-ID: To: Peter Gutmann Cc: TLS Mailing List , "secdispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020938a05825159be" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [TLS] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-belyavskiy-fakesni-00.txt X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:06:27 -0000 --00000000000020938a05825159be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:35 AM Dmitry Belyavsky wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:21 AM Peter Gutmann > wrote: > >> Dmitry Belyavsky writes: >> >> >Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band for the handshake >> >> But then won't the DPI check the out-of-band source as well? If you've >> got a >> MITM sitting there then they can do the same lookups and whatnot that the >> client does, unless you're relying on the client being off-path, which >> seems a >> bit of a leap. You'd need to implement it via some sort of subliminal >> signalling mechanism that the DPI can't detect. >> >> > In fact if DPI begins to poll domains whether FakeSNI record is present, > we have a race between changing the value in FakeSNI and DPI polling. > And DoH/DoT ensures that DPI has to poll. > > Let me clarify. I understand that the solution I propose is not perfect. But there is no silver bullet, and this is just another way to make a life of DPI harder. -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky --00000000000020938a05825159be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:35 AM Dmit= ry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com= > wrote:


On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:21 AM Peter Gu= tmann <pg= ut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
Dmitry Belyavsky <beldmit@gmail.com> writes:

>Fake SNI is delivered out-of-band for the handshake

But then won't the DPI check the out-of-band source as well?=C2=A0 = If you've got a
MITM sitting there then they can do the same lookups= and whatnot that the
client does, unless you're relying on the clie= nt being off-path, which seems a
bit of a leap.=C2=A0 You'd need to = implement it via some sort of subliminal
signalling mechanism that the D= PI can't detect.

=C2=A0
In fact if DPI begins to poll domain= s whether FakeSNI record is present,
we have a race between chang= ing the value in FakeSNI and DPI polling.=C2=A0
And DoH/DoT ensur= es that DPI has to poll.

=
Let me clarify. I understand that the solution I propose is = not perfect.=C2=A0
But there is no silver bullet, and this is jus= t another way to make a life of DPI harder.

--
SY, Dmitry Belyavsky
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11:15:44 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:15:44 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for agenda items at IETF 104 Thread-Index: AdTCMI5iwmry0zeJQ9CQHNFgoFg/FALvbFAA Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:15:43 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857D9E92@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Call for agenda items at IETF 104 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:15:52 -0000 Hello! The draft agenda for IETF 104 [1] has SecDispatch scheduled for Monday, Mar= ch 25 from 1350 - 1550. A reminder, if you would like time on the agenda, = please send your request to the mailing list. Regards, Roman and Richard [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Roman Danyliw > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 12:40 PM > To: secdispatch@ietf.org > Subject: Call for agenda items at IETF 104 >=20 > Hello! >=20 > SecDispatch will be meeting at IETF 104 (at a time yet to be determined).= If > you would like time on the agenda, send your request to the mailing list. > Helpful items to include in your request (if known/applicable) are: >=20 > (1) pointers to a draft(s) > (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions > (3) pointers to implementations > (4) pointers to any other background materials > (5) summarizing prior engagement with existing WGs > (6) summarizing who would want to advance this work > (7) desired next steps >=20 > If needed, precedence will be given to documents that have demonstrated > interest in the form of active drafts and list discussion. >=20 > If you have questions, please reach out to the co-chairs. >=20 > Regards, > Roman and Richard From nobody Tue Feb 26 11:46:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D41130EF3 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDvmpyWGhTPp for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F240130ECF for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id c13so2866219wmb.0 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:references:cc:from:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LgGNmx9R0/QY3r7Ive1TwXOfDZ0OWdmV0lLdNe9ZboQ=; b=MuuQBIeXe3h8AENHYsKfQaPCzklBCoA7mtnFdoCODfRvyPJ3PZlLzVwvy1Kw6yqxNF 337vGlCPiC3YuxNi3Waxd0yE2IlImV6xLWiCBrDRTHAc3TkDmZfqoYaI4QeHo0a8TvQJ 4SgD3rAXy5FCKR1a0dvTFBRjRdfEymh/Chs90MqFv0akOcctGlqGsE3bIHGIAGcrHZI9 y27ysKV1NNKhGrsQ+vXISvrapfCx8UB2bHUZHdMXoZyYFW5zY23THOCvK7nVMZ9vJzYy lrrCBXpZgoNw0eLFKyZbzNU7/3rU3JDc3mK0BaCiEeg5t1U22tZ7B7b/GeXZun+r8JHU 2zOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:cc:from:to:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LgGNmx9R0/QY3r7Ive1TwXOfDZ0OWdmV0lLdNe9ZboQ=; b=fRWtme4gAcjBT1OycHPR0rQHIT1SZbFPEia09nhzqA5ix/vUyBJXkWKCxjWxs9NzvW DlKfCfxB9uV4oQFFsykrAjynyEeHgq5QXtdh5qXZZfqOji81iniT7VnYEPc9sDVCoAo5 845FlNaooU8w+BxNipFrt0LjVLYjrIaBxHooamVjTOpJuWzAwFMGCVm9OPNYQ67XRDJM lK73KdhKEz7sqVzPefWwum5x2gfwIjKs0+IMEsV91Jn/uDcHJppLrM8vXzXIPBwA6f9q mfvI7OfmoOWJW6lrS+8loVqXE5pvzYVZGtgEUrCteYhlfr7fMxE740gWR1yjkHEjsH0c x5HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZHtFXIkYIz3SZKNcWuXRdjc4AT3lIESEu7L+0ayUDHDpC97/5+ LNJLuf1exuU7deKGoBR5sIc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbncCAas3cr/tmbav2MIxvqaMKBVNdR8228d3MGakRKX7/X1CA9D552Gis0bog3Mh3neOk0yQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:cf82:: with SMTP id f124mr3812065wmg.95.1551210372478; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.79] (25.131.146.77.rev.sfr.net. [77.146.131.25]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u15sm24308wmu.17.2019.02.26.11.46.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Feb 2019 11:46:11 -0800 (PST) References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857D9E92@marathon> <36BE29A9-22F9-4D06-A47F-4AF276385E35@gmail.com> Cc: Bret Jordan , Samuel Erdtman From: Anders Rundgren To: secdispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:46:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36BE29A9-22F9-4D06-A47F-4AF276385E35@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] JSON Canonicalization Scheme. Re: Call for agenda items at IETF 104 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:46:24 -0000 Dear SecDispatch Organizers We would be happy to get a slot in the program. JSON Canonicalization Scheme (JCS) is a building block for JSON-based security solutions. The work to potentially be presented has a mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json-canon Current I-D: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rundgren-json-canonicalization-scheme-05 Implementations exist for 5 platforms: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rundgren-json-canonicalization-scheme-05#appendix-G On-line site where a combination of JOSE JWS and JCS (our topic) can be tested: https://mobilepki.org/jws-jcs/home Our whish is to run JCS either in a WG or become a DISPATCH item. At least two of the editors will be present in Prague. Sincerely, Anders Rundgren, for the JCS team From nobody Tue Feb 26 15:18:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969291286E7 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 15:18:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rmrm.io Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qI2jUlVjOEZ1 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 15:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D11126D00 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 15:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id x206so2989969lff.3 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 15:18:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rmrm.io; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TJ6kEC7UsnwOal1x7WZKm0kM6R7QdQ/i2myzJePHbd0=; b=Om8PWkPs6QRoptyuK2nBj6ATylqX9jKUrq9p6bH/P/SqxiR4MZIaat/WeQIVSdzLJx 6TeU6OaoBFn1t+KPHaefX7NCl8KW15PWMd/BSRJLWSojig1xf9jrBzT8Q2XY0xIVUlOE qUYbNMai9bVs7P3/wxsb+2R2Ew2PgSdnCem9lIAceDokxGLDTIWl/QtS9QKu3FCgSUta ss3gErhV2qUz32TtDKdVfRAwSW8+SzQ3AFqv2GyLBOFPyC1hy/zROiehgrK6HG2q8OUB cs2+VGRxM6n4D/66odRqADLRiGvOFplkzZZfL9NZ18MzxPhmnPjsteGIx0xUicC8yYlB Jo7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TJ6kEC7UsnwOal1x7WZKm0kM6R7QdQ/i2myzJePHbd0=; b=G/Z+Vt0ootJtmxy7IDSY2BCiV4wmnrCNEbJjJQRfaIhgfpXZuE18tH+wBDesDsYRUg IzZfrNT8FbomfN2CMBFnqZ+9W/3hfXf+bxVfAK/FvQ11YNhJg8+upxebQhRm2uYDTU2R DHELis0oxPcTbzZ7oQGCkmkBdh6k/ktfchZ9dSzToc9YZQr0Di6WqQXksbRIGKENUWrE DU6cRAHFmjKsBc76Ns2lFhz/bzEY3wz22jqIa8nJL/t9o9PjbgHtYm+lAMmk+cVfsaqk hldrwfW3++Rb2e8LxcgcFFdUKcOpK93dEGl9vyCmd7iNIsbDHI6R6xE89n82aaUZRTfA Z/Zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaJdWXUc8tVuUBHPfPseKTJIMmCgIenyvO9cec5yw6pVKfsenLm 6XJ1Y6V/GYvpk1MN3v5Wl6zjuXcqtAcOw66065wT7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbLTXqQTRIveLxdI5Vmps/YVO0z5t0vSZPGC0YnankijdGxSFLzIAEZW9FO9J5uh+gUeCJpX6tSMVFt2T0ovks= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5003:: with SMTP id e3mr13698523lfb.160.1551223118631; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 15:18:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857D9E92@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857D9E92@marathon> From: "R. Miles McCain" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:18:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw , secdispatch@ietf.org Cc: Nat Welch , Micah Lee Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f43f9f0582d446a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Call for agenda items at IETF 104 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 23:18:45 -0000 --000000000000f43f9f0582d446a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, If any additional time is available, I would like to request time to discuss draft-mccain-keylist (< https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mccain-keylist/>) during the SecDispatch meeting at IETF 104. Most discussion so far has taken place in the OpenPGP mailing list (see < https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/?gbt=1&index=tFzcDPVHylKrLmZY_2Vcw0bdjog>), and 'development' of the draft has taken place on GitHub (< https://github.com/firstlookmedia/keylist-rfc>). (Note that because of the recent constructive feedback from the OpenPGP mailing list, my co-authors and I plan to release an updated version of the draft in the coming days.) The spec itself has been implemented by GPGSync, an open-source tool currently in use by First Look Media (parent of *The Intercept*) and the Freedom of the Press Foundation. Other background materials are available at and < https://tech.firstlook.media/keylist-rfc-explainer>. My co-authors and I imagine that this work could *potentially* be suitable for the OpenPGP working group, but we also realize that our draft has less to do with OpenPGP itself and more to do with key management, and are therefore open to working with whatever group is appropriate. We hope to be guided by the feedback from a working group, but my co-authors and I nonetheless anticipate that the majority of work done to advance the draft will be our own. (That being said, we welcome and encourage anyone to submit a pull request to the draft's GitHub repository should they like to make edits themselves.) It is also worth mentioning that we will be participating in the meeting remotely. Thank you for your consideration, Miles McCain On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 11:15 AM Roman Danyliw wrote: > Hello! > > The draft agenda for IETF 104 [1] has SecDispatch scheduled for Monday, > March 25 from 1350 - 1550. A reminder, if you would like time on the > agenda, please send your request to the mailing list. > > Regards, > Roman and Richard > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roman Danyliw > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 12:40 PM > > To: secdispatch@ietf.org > > Subject: Call for agenda items at IETF 104 > > > > Hello! > > > > SecDispatch will be meeting at IETF 104 (at a time yet to be > determined). If > > you would like time on the agenda, send your request to the mailing list. > > Helpful items to include in your request (if known/applicable) are: > > > > (1) pointers to a draft(s) > > (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions > > (3) pointers to implementations > > (4) pointers to any other background materials > > (5) summarizing prior engagement with existing WGs > > (6) summarizing who would want to advance this work > > (7) desired next steps > > > > If needed, precedence will be given to documents that have demonstrated > > interest in the form of active drafts and list discussion. > > > > If you have questions, please reach out to the co-chairs. > > > > Regards, > > Roman and Richard > > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch > --000000000000f43f9f0582d446a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

If any additional time= is available, I would like to request time to discuss draft-mccain-keylist= (<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mccain-keylist/&= gt;) during the SecDispatch meeting at IETF 104.

M= ost discussion so far has taken place in the OpenPGP mailing list (see <= https://mailarchive.ie= tf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/?gbt=3D1&index=3DtFzcDPVHylKrLmZY_2Vcw0bdjog= >), and 'development' of the draft has taken place on GitHub= (<https://github.com/firstlookmedia/keylist-rfc>). (Note that b= ecause of the recent constructive feedback from the OpenPGP mailing list, m= y co-authors and I plan to release an updated version of the draft in the c= oming days.)

The spec itself has been implemented = by GPGSync, an open-source tool currently in use by First Look Media (paren= t of The Intercept) and the Freedom of the Press Foundation. Other b= ackground materials are available at <https://tech.firstlook.media/gpg-syn= c-v0-3> and <https://tech.firstlook.media/keylist-rfc-expla= iner>.

My co-authors and I imagine that thi= s work could potentially be suitable for the OpenPGP working group, = but we also realize that our draft has less to do with OpenPGP itself and m= ore to do with key management, and are therefore open to working with whate= ver group is appropriate. We hope to be guided by the feedback from a worki= ng group, but my co-authors and I nonetheless anticipate that the majority = of work done to advance the draft will be our own. (That being said, we wel= come and encourage anyone to submit a pull request to the draft's GitHu= b repository should they like to make edits themselves.)

It is also worth mentioning that we will be participating in the mee= ting remotely.

Thank you for your consideration,
Miles McCain


=

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 11:15 AM Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
=
Hello!

The draft agenda for IETF 104 [1] has SecDispatch scheduled for Monday, Mar= ch 25 from 1350 - 1550.=C2=A0 A reminder, if you would like time on the age= nda, please send your request to the mailing list.

Regards,
Roman and Richard

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 12:40 PM
> To: secdispa= tch@ietf.org
> Subject: Call for agenda items at IETF 104
>
> Hello!
>
> SecDispatch will be meeting at IETF 104 (at a time yet to be determine= d).=C2=A0 If
> you would like time on the agenda, send your request to the mailing li= st.
> Helpful items to include in your request (if known/applicable) are: >
> (1) pointers to a draft(s)
> (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions
> (3) pointers to implementations
> (4) pointers to any other background materials
> (5) summarizing prior engagement with existing WGs
> (6) summarizing who would want to advance this work
> (7) desired next steps
>
> If needed, precedence will be given to documents that have demonstrate= d
> interest in the form of active drafts and list discussion.
>
> If you have questions, please reach out to the co-chairs.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Richard

_______________________________________________
Secdispatch mailing list
Secdispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
--000000000000f43f9f0582d446a4-- From nobody Thu Feb 28 07:27:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC62D130EC5 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJEcnh22Ijea for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 07:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3E721271FF for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] EDHOC X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 15:27:29 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogUm9tYW4gRGFueWxpdw0K PiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBKYW51YXJ5IDIyLCAyMDE5IDY6MTAgUE0NCj4gVG86IHNlY2Rpc3Bh dGNoQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IENjOiBGcmFuY2VzY2EgUGFsb21iaW5pIDxmcmFuY2VzY2EucGFsb21i aW5pQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT47IEpvaG4NCj4gTWF0dHNzb24gPGpvaG4ubWF0dHNzb25AZXJpY3Nz b24uY29tPjsgJ0fDtnJhbiBTZWxhbmRlcicNCj4gPGdvcmFuLnNlbGFuZGVyQGVyaWNzc29uLmNv bT4NCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IEVESE9DDQo+IA0KPiBIaSENCj4gDQo+ID4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gPiBGcm9tOiBTZWNkaXNwYXRjaCBbbWFpbHRvOnNlY2Rpc3BhdGNo LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZg0KPiA+IEfDtnJhbiBTZWxhbmRlcg0KPiA+ IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSmFudWFyeSAwMiwgMjAxOSA1OjU2IFBNDQo+ID4gVG86IHNlY2Rp c3BhdGNoQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gQ2M6IEZyYW5jZXNjYSBQYWxvbWJpbmkgPGZyYW5jZXNjYS5w YWxvbWJpbmlAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPjsgSm9obg0KPiA+IE1hdHRzc29uIDxqb2huLm1hdHRzc29u QGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NCj4gPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbU2VjZGlzcGF0Y2hdIEVESE9DDQo+ID4NCj4g PiBXZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gYWR2aXNlZCB0byBhc2sgc2VjZGlzcGF0Y2ggdG8gY29uc2lkZXIgRURI T0M6DQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXNlbGFuZGVyLWFjZS1j b3NlLWVjZGhlDQo+IA0KPiBbc25pcF0NCj4gDQo+ID4gVGhlcmUgaGFzIGJlZW4gYSBudW1iZXIg b2YgcmV2aWV3cyBvZiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdmVyc2lvbnMgb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0Ow0KPiA+IGJvdGgg YnkgcGVvcGxlIHdobyB3YW50IHRvIGRlcGxveSBpdCBhbmQgYnkgcGVvcGxlIGFuYWx5c2luZyB0 aGUNCj4gPiBzZWN1cml0eS4gQSBmb3JtYWwgdmVyaWZpY2F0aW9uIHdhcyBwcmVzZW50ZWQgYXQg U1NSIDIwMTguDQo+IA0KPiBUbyBzYXZlIG90aGVycyB0aGUgc2VhcmNoIHRpbWUsIEkgYmVsaWV2 ZSB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSByZWZlcmVuY2Ugb24gYSBmb3JtYWwNCj4gdmVyaWZpY2F0aW9uIG9mIEVE SE9DOg0KPiANCj4gQnJ1bmkgQS4sIFNhaGwgSsO4cmdlbnNlbiBULiwgR3LDuG5iZWNoIFBldGVy c2VuIFQuLCBTY2jDvHJtYW5uIEMuICgyMDE4KQ0KPiBGb3JtYWwgVmVyaWZpY2F0aW9uIG9mIEVw aGVtZXJhbCBEaWZmaWUtSGVsbG1hbiBPdmVyIENPU0UgKEVESE9DKS4gSW46DQo+IENyZW1lcnMg Qy4sIExlaG1hbm4gQS4gKGVkcykgU2VjdXJpdHkgU3RhbmRhcmRpc2F0aW9uIFJlc2VhcmNoLiBT U1IgMjAxOC4NCj4gTGVjdHVyZSBOb3RlcyBpbiBDb21wdXRlciBTY2llbmNlLCB2b2wgMTEzMjIu IFNwcmluZ2VyLCBDaGFtDQo+IA0KPiBodHRwczovL2xpbmsuc3ByaW5nZXIuY29tL2NvbnRlbnQv cGRmLzEwLjEwMDclMkY5NzgtMy0wMzAtMDQ3NjItN18yLnBkZg0KDQpUaGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGlz IGFuIGFsdGVybmF0ZSByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gdGhpcyBwYXBlciB0aGF0IGlzbid0IGJlaGluZCBh IHBheXdhbGwgKHRoYW5rcyB0byBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIHBhcGVyJ3MgYXV0aG9ycywgQWxlc3NhbmRy byBCcnVuaSk6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vYWxlc3NhbmRyb2JydW5pLm5hbWUvcGFwZXJzLzE4LWVkaG9j LnBkZg0KDQpBZGRpdGlvbmFsbHksIHRoZSBtb2RlbCBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggdGhpcyBwYXBl ciBjYW4gYmUgZm91bmQgaGVyZToNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL3RoZWlzZ3JvZW5iZWNo L2VkaG9jLXByb3ZlcmlmDQoNClJvbWFuDQo= From nobody Thu Feb 28 07:58:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF262130F03 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 07:58:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gMncPipHMe_y for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59874130EDB for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from korb.sei.cmu.edu (korb.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.30]) by taper.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1SFw4DS025133 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:58:04 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 taper.sei.cmu.edu x1SFw4DS025133 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1551369484; bh=IgINbx+jwESPTN/RIOZBBJsN542QKPmUIIAD+2Lu7do=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=ntzcQ51NOikWTt9QJB1BQh0Ia+0N4fBsdx8xaRHrx19WoWA4fARcVzINjpM8rr9Uq xR6TVMAivXEkCzj84BjjzPRLfW1M6rryCg8cUzhkhgF5IPrWA6lx5nqlXKSPNfjvc2 HKwC1920MDjRkoLWmd8DH3v5+H21d0F4jfCgiPI4= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by korb.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1SFvxJo028302 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:57:59 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:57:59 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 Thread-Index: AdTPfcnPAasMvUPrSXCNllXFPtHEEg== Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 15:57:58 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857DD810@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Secdispatch] Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 15:58:08 -0000 Hello! As a reminder, SECDISPATCH will be meeting for a virtual interim meeting on= Tuesday, March 5, 2019. =3D=3D[ Agenda ]=3D=3D https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/materials/= agenda-interim-2019-secdispatch-01-secdispatch-01.txt =3D=3D[ Materials ]=3D=3D https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/session/se= cdispatch =3D=3D[ Dial-in Information ]=3D=3D Meeting Link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm9c46ced5a864cc7a44c= a4960e4fd6f0a Meeting Number: 640 410 560 Meeting Password: NMESeM7y=20 Audio connection: ** 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) ** Access code: 640 410 560 Regards, Roman and Richard From nobody Thu Feb 28 09:16:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE226130EB2 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FLsJkzDQIvAJ for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68F80130E9F for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id j125so9720032wmj.1 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hTlPURF1CUnWdNy/TTvNSuUsSwu4a6VLZkDLwFfZ9SI=; b=JPc9XVhlbPl6MCEvGchnjjveVf4CQvq+OcXhbZsf0QquPK7sufVbIjG+Gj3e8E966X suuxg1Oq9CZbinNYkCZqxDtvcoWGpS7PuZrZxrhYLfK0k/ii7n0Z6i7Z2K+b23nwYW9u TnUIS3piC4ineTnD6OqC+gFdvW+EUU8rvhlbyiD3YXk0KWXO1b9JFl5BhrprAxrzd+Gt uaaarIkV2kvHY/Zfo/dkLsIey7YbqjAJwqVkXZqHeJ/PpaW4MMsa0S9tZ3GyOW09oLTV WK81XpSawUKxqWWxd0FjH87hHS44SoSDnJgjBalDRXy0r7OiiZYUv/XyaESb0/5fbAnZ L1zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hTlPURF1CUnWdNy/TTvNSuUsSwu4a6VLZkDLwFfZ9SI=; b=ssLlxB5AmeQ0O41Q6yMNY8H6pdgzKZgYg/gfTliNO0E4BSe0SXkFqYKZVM4kVpzivS oTJRgyeLssKCcKaA0G8fqbn3rkXOjaSq4PbiSTJrto7I3lPOvx05uIQZuN4iur48YuI4 CMXDLXhNL3yq5rvPAW2qJL7VIDMXm2Tibj9oE3ClP9Av7fYTJHSoaDai8Xm4yD2WfPv2 TWKK6NCOZNrs50ZJk/PfSprQcgNQwM3TvYXmfOMTzwfP87272GSTOPE8dcrIm4Vy78z4 iLSZhIE2bUhunBrinX1OKLAVXv5DDV01O/ht4R4EYJS4UGjnFGsY7P8C9nOLPyyGfA2S kEHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCHBz1S6JCSlq9uG2FI4kopANuH2WMqVibVHwXnbLtXNmJ5Gjc DyrGnDRUkKwlVT5J4SvLOKCX/bCP X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyg5yTV1/mvSM0tU2qW66ViTsAD7r+GOfwKkAGcN8JuXTr55NTMHQ9hwpB6UtysFTfWnJGqMg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:9e97:: with SMTP id h145mr450055wme.147.1551374166348; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.79] (25.131.146.77.rev.sfr.net. [77.146.131.25]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm41346158wro.25.2019.02.28.09.16.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) To: Roman Danyliw , "secdispatch@ietf.org" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857DD810@marathon> From: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: <840651ef-0ce4-78ac-d081-add571b17bfc@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:16:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857DD810@marathon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:16:11 -0000 Hi, Pardon a newcomer's ignorance regarding procedures, but is EDHOC the only secdispatch meeting and topic during IETF-104? Anders On 2019-02-28 16:57, Roman Danyliw wrote: > Hello! > > As a reminder, SECDISPATCH will be meeting for a virtual interim meeting on Tuesday, March 5, 2019. > > ==[ Agenda ]== > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/materials/agenda-interim-2019-secdispatch-01-secdispatch-01.txt > > ==[ Materials ]== > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/session/secdispatch > > ==[ Dial-in Information ]== > Meeting Link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m9c46ced5a864cc7a44ca4960e4fd6f0a > > Meeting Number: 640 410 560 > Meeting Password: NMESeM7y > > Audio connection: > ** 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) > ** Access code: 640 410 560 > > Regards, > Roman and Richard > > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch > From nobody Thu Feb 28 09:37:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1F2130EB2 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:37:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8tntbVossb_F for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from veto.sei.cmu.edu (veto.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF41F130E9F for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from korb.sei.cmu.edu (korb.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.30]) by veto.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1SHb7t5042495; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:37:08 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 veto.sei.cmu.edu x1SHb7t5042495 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1551375428; bh=UFP6yTtOV2z8bEozS4StU36jONZcsbagPU8AWfl7mBM=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=ctvkZBXqkd8BnlgrHU+w9B2AYXxdqBPh9gI9Gia77N2nnxugLIu9arYIXagN50nqK Hv0wcfR9I7wGpVmmW92YDVheV3XMzBkRATXET5O1B55tK3AoqGngwOibNvaIRlQ1eQ 6bwg26c+6TjlYiyAK+syD3akcU8zIYN+JWVQz/4Y= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by korb.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1SHb5jL022896; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:37:05 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0435.000; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 12:37:05 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: Anders Rundgren CC: "secdispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Secdispatch] Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 Thread-Index: AdTPfcnPAasMvUPrSXCNllXFPtHEEgANWaoA//+yDmA= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:37:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857DD810@marathon>, <840651ef-0ce4-78ac-d081-add571b17bfc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <840651ef-0ce4-78ac-d081-add571b17bfc@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:37:12 -0000 Hi Anders, > On Feb 28, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Anders Rundgren wrote: >=20 > Hi, > Pardon a newcomer's ignorance regarding procedures, but is EDHOC the only= secdispatch meeting and topic during IETF-104? EDHOC is the only topic for the virtual interim meeting (I.e., Webex call) = next week. This virtual meeting is different than IETF 104. IETF 104 is at the end of March and we are still collecting agenda items fo= r this in-person meeting. The chairs have noted your JCS agenda item reque= st. Roman > Anders >=20 >=20 >> On 2019-02-28 16:57, Roman Danyliw wrote: >> Hello! >> As a reminder, SECDISPATCH will be meeting for a virtual interim meeting= on Tuesday, March 5, 2019. >> =3D=3D[ Agenda ]=3D=3D >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/materia= ls/agenda-interim-2019-secdispatch-01-secdispatch-01.txt >> =3D=3D[ Materials ]=3D=3D >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/session= /secdispatch >> =3D=3D[ Dial-in Information ]=3D=3D >> Meeting Link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm9c46ced5a864cc7a= 44ca4960e4fd6f0a >> Meeting Number: 640 410 560 >> Meeting Password: NMESeM7y >> Audio connection: >> ** 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >> ** Access code: 640 410 560 >> Regards, >> Roman and Richard >> _______________________________________________ >> Secdispatch mailing list >> Secdispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 28 09:57:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9BC130EE5 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yDlE6QhhquZO for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x12d.google.com (mail-it1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D6312F1AB for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id l66so17053446itg.3 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=jO57SDjmftO3yaVdV9UULoxMtEU1c04xCt2K9ympa4o=; b=ZbUIHhaZKrpekKThdljqGlQ7vUyup+iu06h6nK52RGK4KlRndXUBJI/UCzI3T7msl5 9JnPyEqZ9UA6kVx3OqegZmFSihOUZ2M4uan2CodwxDs1jPiLxdqg0YyK4wSpcCE/b+9B 1/9+Zmub0+JJxxaXQmjGZ2lymLebBDSxXwmnkvXcTR/tb9BtxOO9YtQsGOsq/oLZ+fGr 2NOSHBb/vKFWOj7wCyaY56z5tcIcqymi6zFOBLWKAIo5bP5FEWNzTZ46TBsmjZR1KvIY 0Iny8vhdzo9hksgoSmLDdMMObQPaYIPKVHJfZcvhlgg5gLM93Fjd5GWwwsR8vCg/CD4y rb6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=jO57SDjmftO3yaVdV9UULoxMtEU1c04xCt2K9ympa4o=; b=iCqvzVAvDcOmSJM70yjPOH2f7ZaZeeauqPFRV8hIz7AG0RisU35q+/1LzgqI9L4zWH iGLa79GDsQjffsj+L7UQLbF1VgtbZ7vfMuNsW64ihKXv+EqN5i06U/N2qjEnRUK9TcOm fZNVZBvMHLsi4J4Z0v0DtyUbui8mgOZS6NCJVcz1rzx/DA+6+UaBJqyx1BCDpJ9ufWf2 Wcou8SWvx2WQQEY39hQvvAD2GwqcGDl2KvTGR9kvCsZaTtejJLpo2iCEXavV/O73eLF+ G1Cj4PM0gBZcjVo9eB7bqJsrwUnB75/M2nUxrx28mf42XTeCnhspDzUtYVxZV8tWdsA0 m/vw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVafv2B8ajSRPBzHtiVofcjGjtKc1l3gX+YPHDQacKRX+PadvQJ k/R5opUg00qF41HjYIFOS8g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwOWObrntIs3DJERxG+6oGjyLvP6HliRfGNemQG7S/07aYioT7NoCMpGwif2HxZfjBvFXDuOQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:7a85:: with SMTP id a127mr725074itc.46.1551376655085; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2605:a601:a028:986:2c8c:c078:1293:f54d? ([2605:a601:a028:986:2c8c:c078:1293:f54d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w8sm3112744ita.21.2019.02.28.09.57.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Feb 2019 09:57:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D07059B3-4499-4D66-8E1E-F84CE1747CAE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:57:31 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Anders Rundgren , "secdispatch@ietf.org" To: Roman Danyliw References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857DD810@marathon> <840651ef-0ce4-78ac-d081-add571b17bfc@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Materials for Virtual Interim Meeting on March-05-2019 X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Security Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:57:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D07059B3-4499-4D66-8E1E-F84CE1747CAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Roman. I also support the JCS request for SECDISPATCH. =20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Feb 28, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Roman Danyliw wrote: >=20 > Hi Anders, >=20 >> On Feb 28, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Anders Rundgren = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >> Pardon a newcomer's ignorance regarding procedures, but is EDHOC the = only secdispatch meeting and topic during IETF-104? >=20 > EDHOC is the only topic for the virtual interim meeting (I.e., Webex = call) next week. This virtual meeting is different than IETF 104. >=20 > IETF 104 is at the end of March and we are still collecting agenda = items for this in-person meeting. The chairs have noted your JCS agenda = item request. >=20 > Roman >=20 >> Anders >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2019-02-28 16:57, Roman Danyliw wrote: >>> Hello! >>> As a reminder, SECDISPATCH will be meeting for a virtual interim = meeting on Tuesday, March 5, 2019. >>> =3D=3D[ Agenda ]=3D=3D >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/materials= /agenda-interim-2019-secdispatch-01-secdispatch-01.txt >>> =3D=3D[ Materials ]=3D=3D >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-01/session/s= ecdispatch >>> =3D=3D[ Dial-in Information ]=3D=3D >>> Meeting Link: = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm9c46ced5a864cc7a44ca4960e4fd6f0a= >>> Meeting Number: 640 410 560 >>> Meeting Password: NMESeM7y >>> Audio connection: >>> ** 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >>> ** Access code: 640 410 560 >>> Regards, >>> Roman and Richard >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Secdispatch mailing list >>> Secdispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Secdispatch mailing list > Secdispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch --Apple-Mail=_D07059B3-4499-4D66-8E1E-F84CE1747CAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks Roman.  I also support the JCS request for = SECDISPATCH.  


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Feb 28, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> = wrote:

Hi Anders,

On Feb 28, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Anders Rundgren = <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Pardon a newcomer's ignorance regarding = procedures, but is EDHOC the only secdispatch meeting and topic during = IETF-104?

EDHOC is the only = topic for the virtual interim meeting (I.e., Webex call) next week. This = virtual meeting is different than IETF 104.

IETF 104 is at the end of March and we are still collecting = agenda items for this in-person meeting.  The chairs have noted = your JCS agenda item request.

Roman

Anders


On 2019-02-28 16:57, Roman Danyliw wrote:
Hello!
As a reminder, SECDISPATCH will be = meeting for a virtual interim meeting on Tuesday, March 5, 2019.
=3D=3D[ Agenda ]=3D=3D
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-0= 1/materials/agenda-interim-2019-secdispatch-01-secdispatch-01.txt
=3D=3D[ Materials ]=3D=3D
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-secdispatch-0= 1/session/secdispatch
=3D=3D[ Dial-in Information ]=3D=3DMeeting Link: = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm9c46ced5a864cc7a44ca4960e4fd6f0a=
Meeting Number: 640 410 560
Meeting = Password: NMESeM7y
Audio connection:
** = 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)
** Access = code: 640 410 560
Regards,
Roman and = Richard
_______________________________________________
Secdispatch mailing list
Secdispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch


_______________________________________________
Secdispatch mailing list
Secdispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_D07059B3-4499-4D66-8E1E-F84CE1747CAE--