From mailman-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 10:00:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA08945 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2RNh-0004GU-6d for syslog-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:26:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2Qzr-0006em-Fs for syslog-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:01:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: lists.ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: syslog-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:00:22 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Mailman site list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your lists.ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@lists.ietf.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. ********************************************************************** NOTE WELL: Any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication as all or part of an IETF Internet-Draft or RFC and any statement made within the context of an IETF activity is considered an "IETF Contribution". 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Passwords for syslog-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- syslog@lists.ietf.org abzuka https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/syslog/syslog-archive%40ietf.org From mailman-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 1 10:41:00 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19837 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767855D1A1 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: www.employees.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@willers.employees.org To: syslog-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:00:45 -0700 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 List-Id: mailman.www.employees.org X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: mailman-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your www.employees.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@www.employees.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@www.employees.org. Thanks! Passwords for syslog-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- syslog-sec@www.employees.org widuza http://www.employees.org/mailman/options/syslog-sec/syslog-archive%40lists.ietf.org From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 1 18:05:38 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09733 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7165C7D2; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797BC5C7CC for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27947; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409012010.QAA27947@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:10:26 -0400 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:05:38 -0700 Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Security Issues in Network Event Logging Working Group of the IETF. Title : Transmission of syslog messages over UDP Author(s) : A. Okmianski Filename : draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2004-9-1 This document describes the transport for syslog messages over UDP/ IPv4 or UDP/IPv6. While several transport mappings are envisioned for the syslog protocol, syslog protocol implementors are required to support the transport mapping described in this document. This transport specification overcomes limitations of UDP/IP datagram size by introducing support for fragmentation of large messages. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-9-1163705.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-9-1163705.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec --NextPart-- From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Thu Sep 2 10:25:10 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07446 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3B05C734; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:25:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ind-iport-1.cisco.com (ind-iport-1-sec.cisco.com [64.104.129.9]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1E65C729 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (64.104.129.221) by ind-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Sep 2004 20:02:35 +0530 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i82EK8ig002709 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALG70732; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:20:26 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c490f7$fe2cfea0$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.5709 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200409012010.QAA27947@ietf.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:25:08 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Updates in this draft include: 1. UDP checksums are now a SHOULD instead of a MUST for IPv4. Checking checksums by receiver when available is still a MUST. =20 2. Requirement about using the same port for a given process was removed. This opens up the possibility for a given process to have multiple sockets sending syslog messages. The requirement about using the same MessageId and source port for fragments of a given message is still there, so we are covered for message reassembly.=20 3. The references were split into Normative and Informative. Based on limited feedback I got for previous version, I believe the draft is ready to be published. It has to be published together with syslog-protocol when both are ready. =20 Thanks, Anton. > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org=20 > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:10 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20 > Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the=20 > Security Issues in Network Event Logging Working Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Transmission of syslog messages over UDP > Author(s) : A. Okmianski > Filename : draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2004-9-1 > =09 > This document describes the transport for syslog messages over UDP/ > IPv4 or UDP/IPv6. While several transport mappings are envisioned > for the syslog protocol, syslog protocol implementors are=20 > required to > support the transport mapping described in this document. This > transport specification overcomes limitations of UDP/IP=20 > datagram size > by introducing support for fragmentation of large messages. >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:=20 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transpor > t-udp-02.txt >=20 > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20 > the body of the message. =20 > You can also visit=20 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 > to change your subscription settings. >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login=20 > with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20 > address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". >=20 > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >=20 > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". > =09 > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant=20 > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > =09 > =09 > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail=20 > reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20 > version of the Internet-Draft. >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > In order to maintain computing infrastructure integrity,=20 > Cisco Systems Enterprise Messaging Services and InfoSec teams=20 > have set a mail policy disallowing executable attachments in email. >=20 > This message contained an executable attachment type that is=20 > prohibited=20 > by this policy. The attachment has been removed from this message and=20 > copied to quarantine by our systems. It will be held in=20 > quarantine for seven days in the event that the content needs=20 > to be retrieved. >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > For further reference information about viruses and email antivirus=20 > efforts within Cisco, please visit: >=20 http://wwwin.cisco.com/it/ems/services/antiviral If your concern isn't addressed by the information in this notification=20 or the above web page, you may open a support request: http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/ Select "Messaging", "Email-Related", "Mail Routing" Please include in the text of your case the following information: * Full headers of the message. Documentation on displaying the full=20 headers is available at this URL: http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/library/faqs/solution002471.html=20 * This unique quarantine identifier: i81M6jA3002394 If the matter is urgent, you may follow up by calling one of the below referenced numbers. Please make every effort to provide the above=20 requested information via the support web tool prior to calling as it=20 will greatly aid the resolution of your issue. Americas: 1 408 526 8888 Asiapac +61 2 8446 8888 EMEA +31 20 485 4888 Japan +81 3 5549 6888 US (Toll Free) 1| 800| 888| 8187| (ext.68888) Thank you for your cooperation, Enterprise Messaging Services Cisco Systems, Inc _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Tue Sep 7 08:21:32 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16486 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7115C7A2; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 05:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1675C76F for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2004 05:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D879C763; Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03814-07; Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1439C755; Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:25:35 +0200 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FDC3@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSQ+S0KFza08aHxST6JiHsOSFjP3gDCDXVw From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: "Anton Okmianski" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 05:21:28 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton, thanks for your great work. Some points: - you use "domain.com" in some examples. I recommend changing this to "example.com", which has been reserved for this use. - In 3.4, the draft says: ###### All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog messages up to and including the size which does not require fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). This size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. Implementors SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in documentation. ###### Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of 65,000 bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We agreeed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low to me. Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all implementations MUST support fragmentation. Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max message size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync this. I can go up with my number. I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: ##### No concurrent port reuse on the same host is allowed. ##### It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate if you could elaborate a little. Thanks for the great draft! Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org=20 > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Anton Okmianski > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 4:20 PM > To: syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Hi! >=20 > Updates in this draft include: >=20 > 1. UDP checksums are now a SHOULD instead of a MUST for IPv4. > Checking checksums by receiver when available is still a MUST. =20 >=20 > 2. Requirement about using the same port for a given process was > removed. This opens up the possibility for a given process to have > multiple sockets sending syslog messages. The requirement about using > the same MessageId and source port for fragments of a given message is > still there, so we are covered for message reassembly.=20 >=20 > 3. The references were split into Normative and Informative. >=20 > Based on limited feedback I got for previous version, I believe the > draft is ready to be published. It has to be published together with > syslog-protocol when both are ready. =20 >=20 > Thanks, > Anton. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org=20 > > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf=20 > > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:10 PM > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org > > Subject: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20 > > Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the=20 > > Security Issues in Network Event Logging Working Group of the IETF. > >=20 > > Title : Transmission of syslog messages over UDP > > Author(s) : A. Okmianski > > Filename : draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > > Pages : 21 > > Date : 2004-9-1 > > =09 > > This document describes the transport for syslog messages over UDP/ > > IPv4 or UDP/IPv6. While several transport mappings are > envisioned > > for the syslog protocol, syslog protocol implementors are=20 > > required to > > support the transport mapping described in this document. This > > transport specification overcomes limitations of UDP/IP=20 > > datagram size > > by introducing support for fragmentation of large messages. > >=20 > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transpor > > t-udp-02.txt > >=20 > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to >=20 > > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20 > > the body of the message. =20 > > You can also visit=20 > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 > > to change your subscription settings. > >=20 > >=20 > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login=20 > > with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20 > > address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". > >=20 > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >=20 > > Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > In the body type: > > "FILE > /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt". > > =09 > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" > or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant=20 > > mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been > split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation > on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > =09 > > =09 > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail=20 > > reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20 > > version of the Internet-Draft. > >=20 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > > In order to maintain computing infrastructure integrity,=20 > > Cisco Systems Enterprise Messaging Services and InfoSec teams=20 > > have set a mail policy disallowing executable attachments in email. > >=20 > > This message contained an executable attachment type that is=20 > > prohibited=20 > > by this policy. The attachment has been removed from this message > and=20 > > copied to quarantine by our systems. It will be held in=20 > > quarantine for seven days in the event that the content needs=20 > > to be retrieved. > >=20 > >=20 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > > For further reference information about viruses and email antivirus=20 > > efforts within Cisco, please visit: > >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/it/ems/services/antiviral >=20 >=20 > If your concern isn't addressed by the information in this > notification=20 > or the above web page, you may open a support request: >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/ >=20 > Select "Messaging", "Email-Related", "Mail Routing" >=20 > Please include in the text of your case the following information: >=20 > * Full headers of the message. Documentation on displaying the full=20 > headers is available at this URL: >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/library/faqs/solution002471.html=20 >=20 > * This unique quarantine identifier: i81M6jA3002394 >=20 > If the matter is urgent, you may follow up by calling one of the below >=20 > referenced numbers. Please make every effort to provide the above=20 > requested information via the support web tool prior to calling as it=20 > will greatly aid the resolution of your issue. >=20 > Americas: > 1 408 526 8888 >=20 > Asiapac > +61 2 8446 8888 >=20 > EMEA > +31 20 485 4888 >=20 > Japan > +81 3 5549 6888 >=20 > US (Toll Free) > 1| 800| 888| 8187| (ext.68888) >=20 > Thank you for your cooperation, >=20 > Enterprise Messaging Services > Cisco Systems, Inc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Tue Sep 7 13:02:16 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09774 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4B55C733; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F8B5C7A6 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Sep 2004 11:03:48 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i87F3hOB021391; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALJ00688; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:03:42 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c494eb$dd876580$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FDC3@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:02:16 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rainer: > Some points: >=20 > - you use "domain.com" in some examples. I recommend changing=20 > this to "example.com", which has been reserved for this use. Yes, will change. You already commented on this, and I just lost track of this issue. Sorry about it. =20 > - In 3.4, the draft says: >=20 > ###### > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > messages up to and including the size which does not require > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). This > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. Implementors > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > documentation. > ###### >=20 > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of=20 > 65,000 bytes, because this is the required minimum in=20 > -protocol 4.1. We agreed on this minimum after long=20 > discussions on the message size. I'd actually prefer not to=20 > re-iterate this. But if we must, let me say that a guaranteed=20 > message size of 507 bytes looks far too low to me. >=20 > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all=20 > implementations MUST support fragmentation. >=20 > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... >=20 > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max=20 > message size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make=20 > sense to sync this. I can go up with my number. Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of conclusions was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as it was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum message size as the common denominator may be too small.=20 Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation must be supported by transport implementors. However, a full transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up to 16777216 bytes. =20 I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different limit.=20 It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so we have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available memory will be an issue. =20 Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should we add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum supported message size?=20 I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO.=20 You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints.=20 I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed for good.=20 > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: >=20 > ##### > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > allowed. > ##### >=20 > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd=20 > appreciate if you could elaborate a little. What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific anyway. What do you think? Thanks, Anton.=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Tue Sep 7 14:38:01 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19017 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA4C5C7CA; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EAF5C7B1 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com (srvxchg.cablelabs.com [10.5.0.20]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i87IabPJ012317; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:36:39 -0600 (MDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Syslog-sec] what is the status of syslog device MIB? Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:36:37 -0600 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] what is the status of syslog device MIB? Thread-Index: AcSU/HVPtZAthVz0Sla/idDdglgUtgABnQ2Q From: "Jean-Francois Mule" To: , X-Approved: ondar Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The ID draft-ietf-syslog-device-mib-05.txt has expired. The ID tracker does not show much status info.=20 What is the current status of this MIB module? Jean-Francois jfm@cablelabs.com _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 8 14:36:50 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04578 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EB15C737; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:36:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14B85C734 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Sep 2004 14:49:53 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from edison.cisco.com (edison.cisco.com [171.71.180.109]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i88Ia6O9009040 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (clonvick@localhost) by edison.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id LAA11939 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Lonvick To: syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: [Syslog-sec] what is the status of syslog device MIB? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:36:49 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Hi, ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:36:37 -0600 From: Jean-Francois Mule To: glenn@cysols.com, bpape@enterasys.com Cc: Chris Lonvick , syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: [Syslog-sec] what is the status of syslog device MIB? Hi, The ID draft-ietf-syslog-device-mib-05.txt has expired. The ID tracker does not show much status info. What is the current status of this MIB module? Jean-Francois jfm@cablelabs.com ------------- I seem to be having some problems with the mailer on employees.org. I saw that this came to me but I didn't see it in the queue (awaiting moderator approval) on employees.org. If you send something in to the list, please notify me if you don't see it broadcast out within a reasonable time. Thanks, Chris _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 8 17:48:26 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24908 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F240B5C793; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA0C5C72F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Sep 2004 17:52:19 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i88LcUO9006847 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALK25193; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:38:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:38:39 -0400 Message-ID: <00bb01c495ec$347c7a50$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C495CA.AD6ADA50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200407151925.PAA16818@ietf.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:48:20 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] syslog-protocol-05 comments X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C495CA.AD6ADA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rainer: Attached is a PDF document with your draft and my comments. Do "View/ Comments" in Acrobat Reader if you don't see them. Comments range from wording suggestions to serious issues. Too many issues to provide in an email. Please bring up the more important ones for discussion. Thanks, Anton.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org=20 > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:26 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20 > Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the=20 > Security Issues in Network Event Logging Working Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : The syslog Protocol > Author(s) : R. Gerhards > Filename : draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt > Pages : 40 > Date : 2004-7-15 > =09 > This document describes the syslog protocol. The syslog protocol has > been used throughout the years to convey event notifications. This > documents describes a layered architecture for an easily extensible > syslog protocol. It also describes the basic message format and > structured elements used to provide meta-information about the > message. >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:=20 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt >=20 > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20 > the body of the message. =20 > You can also visit=20 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce=20 > to change your subscription settings. >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login=20 > with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20 > address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt". >=20 > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=20 > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >=20 > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt". > =09 > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant=20 > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > =09 > =09 > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail=20 > reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20 > version of the Internet-Draft. >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > In order to maintain computing infrastructure integrity,=20 > Cisco Systems Enterprise Messaging Services and InfoSec teams=20 > have set a mail policy disallowing executable attachments in email. >=20 > This message contained an executable attachment type that is=20 > prohibited=20 > by this policy. The attachment has been removed from this message and=20 > copied to quarantine by our systems. It will be held in=20 > quarantine for seven days in the event that the content needs=20 > to be retrieved. >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > For further reference information about viruses and email antivirus=20 > efforts within Cisco, please visit: >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/it/ems/services/antiviral >=20 >=20 > If your concern isn't addressed by the information in this=20 > notification=20 > or the above web page, you may open a support request: >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/ >=20 > Select "Messaging", "Email-Related", "Mail Routing" >=20 > Please include in the text of your case the following information: >=20 > * Full headers of the message. Documentation on displaying the full=20 > headers is available at this URL: >=20 > http://wwwin.cisco.com/support/library/faqs/solution002471.html=20 >=20 > * This unique quarantine identifier: i6GC8mef026910 >=20 > If the matter is urgent, you may follow up by calling one of=20 > the below=20 > referenced numbers. Please make every effort to provide the above=20 > requested information via the support web tool prior to calling as it=20 > will greatly aid the resolution of your issue. >=20 > Americas: > 1 408 526 8888 >=20 > Asiapac > +61 2 8446 8888 >=20 > EMEA > +31 20 485 4888 >=20 > Japan > +81 3 5549 6888 >=20 > US (Toll Free) > 1| 800| 888| 8187| (ext.68888) >=20 > Thank you for your cooperation, >=20 > Enterprise Messaging Services > Cisco Systems, Inc >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C495CA.AD6ADA50 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="protocol-5.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="protocol-5.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable %PDF-1.5=0D%=E2=E3=CF=D3 188 0 obj <>=0Dendobj=0D =20 xref 188 13 0000000016 00000 n 0000000812 00000 n 0000000556 00000 n 0000000971 00000 n 0000001017 00000 n 0000001230 00000 n 0000001321 00000 n 0000002423 00000 n 0000002459 00000 n 0000002529 00000 n 0000002618 00000 n 0000002751 00000 n 0000004375 00000 n trailer 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I'd put this paragraph = first

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does not really outline transport = mappings

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Not sure about this. I would thing relay is = also a "\=0D;syslog server". Better omit. We don't need to = mention legacy terminology if it is confusing. =

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replace with = ","

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replace with = "and"

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replace application with receiver since relay = is a subcl\=0Dass of receiver

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Re-phrase this sentence to be more formal = without "\=0Dpeople".

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An application may store all messages and = relay all mess\=0Dages, so it is not limited to the case of storing some = and sending others.

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Well, a relay is always a sender. The = terminology we ar\=0De introducing here is confusing. I would say that = there is ONLY sender and receiver. Then quickly discuss various = deployment scenarios where collectors and relay agent come in. But = don't mix the two. The protocol is about a senders and receivers. = Discu\=0Dssion of special type of receivers \(relays, collectors\) is = all together optional unless we have some special features for them. =

)/Contents(Well, a relay is always a sender. The = terminology we are introducing here is confusing. I would say that = there is ONLY sender and receiver. Then quickly discuss various = deployment scenarios where collectors and relay agent come in. But = don't mix the tw\=0Do. The protocol is about a senders and receivers. = Discussion of special type of receivers \(relays, collectors\) is all = together optional unless we have some special features for them. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[210.750809 494.998962 230.750809 = 512.998962]/CreationDate(D:20040907170623-04'00')/NM(VOcShX7gudnBDjePolXC= mC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907170802-04'00')/P 11 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 234 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D234 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D235 0 obj<

remove this last sentence, you already = mention this in t\=0Dhe next = paragraph.

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the alignment of the diagram is screwed up = like this in \=0Dthe ASCII version as well. Watch your tabs = maybe?

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replace architectures with "deployment = scenarios&qu\=0Dot;

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This last example is confusing. I think you = diverged fr\=0Dom your virtual concept fo sender and receiver to = representation

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I think you need to mention what the boxes = are in the di\=0Dagram. It was not apparent to me that these are = physical boxes until the last examples. Or are these processes? = Otherwise, it looks like you are talking about virtual entities which = could be on one or multiple boxes. If you do, then the last example = wi\=0Dth box with two does not make sense. =

)/Contents(I think you need to mention what the boxes = are in the diagram. It was not apparent to me that these are physical = boxes until the last examples. Or are these processes? Otherwise, it = looks like you are talking about virtual entities which could be on = one\=0D or multiple boxes. If you do, then the last example with box = with two does not make sense. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[188.250717 = 206.247833 208.250717 = 224.247833]/CreationDate(D:20040907171057-04'00')/NM(VGSDifWCiGUgMS6R2tKY= OD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907171211-04'00')/P 11 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 245 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D245 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D246 0 obj<

deployment scenarios, deployment = architectures, not arch\=0Ditectures. we only propose one syslog = architecture

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I thought we said that this will be limited = to a smaller\=0D number. People were concerned how you would configure = all facilities. I personally, don't necessarily see it as a problem. = One would define specific facilities, and have catch-all = \("*"\) for the rest of them.

)/Contents(I = thought we said that this will be limited to a smaller number. People = were concerned how you would configure all facilities. I personally, = don't necessarily see it as a problem. One would define specific = facilities, and have catch-all \("*"\) for the \=0Drest of them. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[39.000153 212.997864 59.000153 = 230.997864]/CreationDate(D:20040907171433-04'00')/NM(fD8Ll4P8izAobyjQwChq= lC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907171529-04'00')/P 19 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 251 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D250 0 obj[249 0 R 251 0 R 252 = 0 R 253 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D251 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D252 0 obj<

I really like it that structured data has a = define place\=0D for it now!

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Ouch, what is = this?

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Have to mention no leading zeroes somewhere, = right?

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no need to specify size limit here, you have = have restri\=0Dcted it by next two lines

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all but space and colon as defined; but = realistically, w\=0De don't need a restriction against colon; you use = space a separator and it is restricted against; so, we can make this = PRINTUSASCII

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Can we make it a small "v"? Just = the visual a\=0Dppeal. The upper case is considered screaming. We don't = want the version to scream. :\)

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do you use this = anywhere?

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do you use this = anywhere?

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don't need "1*" for consistency = with earlier d\=0Defs

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don't need "1*1" or be consistent = everywhere

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You mean ID-CHATNODASH? Slash is = "/". <\=0D/p>)/Contents(You mean ID-CHATNODASH? = Slash is "/". )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[27.000107 749.999878 = 47.000107 = 767.999878]/CreationDate(D:20040907174039-04'00')/NM(j2mTaaHpPV3nsLoTIiNS= eA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907174101-04'00')/P 23 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 278 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D277 0 obj[276 0 R 278 0 R 285 = 0 R 286 0 R 287 0 R 288 0 R 289 0 R 290 0 R 291 0 R 292 0 R 293 0 R 294 = 0 R 295 0 R 296 0 R 297 0 R 298 0 R 299 0 R 300 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D278 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D279 0 obj<

I think we need to disallow use of space in = the SD-ID. \=0DParse may be able to handle it, but visually it will be = confusing. If somebody wants to encorporate parseable info into SD-ID, = then the right way to do this is to include it as SD-PARAM. Then it will = be parseable by standard log viewers.

)/Contents(I = think we need to disallow use of space in the SD-ID. Parse may be able = to handle it, but visually it will be confusing. If somebody wants to = encorporate parseable info into SD-ID, then the right way to do this is = to include it as SD-PARAM. Then it will\=0D be parseable by standard log = viewers. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[144.750549 92.247406 164.750549 = 110.247406]/CreationDate(D:20040907174307-04'00')/NM(daKW0EvSIMpVoEJpgjv6= mC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907174456-04'00')/P 21 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 280 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D280 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D281 0 obj<

Why are we restricting "? I don't mind = it, but why \=0Dnot exclude a bunch of special characters and just allow = alphanumerics? Simpler is better!

)/Contents(Why are = we restricting "? I don't mind it, but why not exclude a bunch of = special characters and just allow alphanumerics? Simpler is better! = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[359.251373 58.497269 379.251373 = 76.497269]/CreationDate(D:20040907174507-04'00')/NM(zVXPnhG9pe3IHRa3sXFbL= D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040907174603-04'00')/P = 21 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 282 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D282 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D283 0 = obj<

why allow trailing spaces? this just adds = extra stuff a\=0D parser has to handle and has no value I can = see.

)/Contents(why allow trailing spaces? this just = adds extra stuff a parser has to handle and has no value I can = see.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[372.001404 175.497711 392.001404 = 193.497711]/CreationDate(D:20040907174716-04'00')/NM(-d2LkH1tzBJpVgol856X= nD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907174744-04'00')/P 21 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 284 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D284 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D285 0 obj<

remove = "=3D"

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So, it is not 16MB presumeably because we = leave some spa\=0Dce \(777Kb\) for extra transport headers? I am not = sure how useful it will be. A transport is unlikely to handle a 16Mb or = 15MB message without fragmentation anyway. The artificial number just = concerns me. At least make it divisible by 1024. =

\=0D)/Contents(So, it is not 16MB presumeably because = we leave some space \(777Kb\) for extra transport headers? I am not sure = how useful it will be. A transport is unlikely to handle a 16Mb or 15MB = message without fragmentation anyway. The artificial number just = conc\=0Derns me. At least make it divisible by 1024. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[286.501099 541.499084 306.501099 = 559.499084]/CreationDate(D:20040907174942-04'00')/NM(ctirUtXV87NSv5eWH1Z0= KC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907175233-04'00')/P 23 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 288 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D288 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D289 0 obj<

This is where we have disconnect with = transport-udp

)/Contents(This is where we have = disconnect with transport-udp)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[428.251648 = 458.99881 448.251648 = 476.99881]/CreationDate(D:20040907175249-04'00')/NM(gtWW0VwshaQhV-C2IsfkN= C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040907175305-04'00')/P = 23 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 290 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D290 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D291 0 = obj<

I think this sentence says something = different than what\=0D you intended. MUST NOT means it CAN NOT. What = you wanted to say was: it does not have to. That's different. =

)/Contents(I think this sentence says something = different than what you intended. MUST NOT means it CAN NOT. What you = wanted to say was: it does not have to. That's different. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[60.750229 401.998596 80.750229 = 419.998596]/CreationDate(D:20040907175322-04'00')/NM(Dfgr0wY8Rm8uT3kXwhjw= tD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907175418-04'00')/P 23 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 292 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D292 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D293 0 obj<

lengths

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Will this break cryptographic signatures? = Will use have\=0D any indication that the message is truncated? Without = it I think it can mislead. I would say it MUST discard it, but it may = log a diagnostic message \(which could include a truncated message, but = we don't have to say it\).

)/Contents(Will this break = cryptographic signatures? Will use have any indication that the message = is truncated? Without it I think it can mislead. I would say it MUST = discard it, but it may log a diagnostic message \(which could include a = truncated message, but we\=0D don't have to say = it\).)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[137.250519 328.498291 157.250519 = 346.498291]/CreationDate(D:20040907175516-04'00')/NM(Rod_q50J4IFNAvDCV9on= 9B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907175624-04'00')/P 23 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 296 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D296 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D297 0 obj<

insert = "be"

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interim means temporary, not sure if this is = what you wa\=0Dnted to say

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... which says any message should be = accepted!)/Contents(... which says any message = should be accepted!)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[272.251038 426.748688 = 292.251038 = 444.748688]/CreationDate(D:20040907180123-04'00')/NM(RREftEXY4vzq3cAcLte_= hD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180141-04'00')/P 25 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 303 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D302 0 obj[301 0 R 303 0 R 304 = 0 R 305 0 R 306 0 R 307 0 R 308 0 R 309 0 R 310 0 R 311 0 R 312 0 R 313 = 0 R 314 0 R 315 0 R 316 0 R 317 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D303 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D304 0 obj<

As stated = above

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You switch back and worth with upper case and = only first\=0D letter upper-case for field names. =

)/Contents(You switch back and worth with upper case = and only first letter upper-case for field names. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[61.500244 252.748016 81.500244 = 270.748016]/CreationDate(D:20040907180229-04'00')/NM(l3HOCe1kn6IbVt0wcdwH= DD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180347-04'00')/P 25 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 307 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D307 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D308 0 obj<

It could be my English, but I never came = across a an exp\=0Dression "note well". I don't know what the = "well" part means.

)/Contents(It could be my = English, but I never came across a an expression "note well". I don't = know what the "well" part means. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[44.250168 = 176.997726 64.250168 = 194.997726]/CreationDate(D:20040907180355-04'00')/NM(jHVx4f5JEQqFb0cXNSoz= _B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180438-04'00')/P 25 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 309 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D309 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D310 0 obj<

section

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in the

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Remove = "any"

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Not sure what this = means.

)/Contents(Not sure what this = means.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[317.251221 97.497421 337.251221 = 115.497421]/CreationDate(D:20040907180613-04'00')/NM(KjtsUAxgWyd1TwQZeHVx= DA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180628-04'00')/P 25 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 317 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D317 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D318 0 obj<

do we really want IANA to handle this instead = of just fu\=0Dture RFCs?

)/Contents(do we really want = IANA to handle this instead of just future RFCs? = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[445.501709 752.249939 465.501709 = 770.249939]/CreationDate(D:20040907180718-04'00')/NM(Ef0JVKDB9lys0ySKNRPx= 6A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180734-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 320 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D319 0 obj[318 0 R 320 0 R 323 = 0 R 324 0 R 325 0 R 326 0 R 327 0 R 328 0 R 329 0 R 330 0 R 331 0 R 332 = 0 R 333 0 R 334 0 R 335 0 R 336 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D320 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D321 0 obj<

replace "if a new" with "when = a new

)/Contents(replace "if a new" with "when a = new)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[276.001038 696.749695 296.001038 = 714.749695]/CreationDate(D:20040907180804-04'00')/NM(K7hFhUplb3bpEpi4-DcU= bA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180828-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 322 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D322 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D323 0 obj<

protocol. use spell = check

)/Contents(protocol. use spell = check)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[351.001343 401.998596 371.001343 = 419.998596]/CreationDate(D:20040907180853-04'00')/NM(LRuCwxNZt5xo2fzHc1lz= MA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907180912-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 324 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D324 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D325 0 obj<

Is not this = obvious

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We have to make clear that we are talking = about a propri\=0Detary log message or somebody may be confused what the = message is. Since it is proprietary, I think we really should not be = getting into this in the standard document, but it is up to you. Also, = I would change it to more generic terminology "SHOULD\=0D provide a = diagnostic indication using any standard or proprietary mechanism". =

)/Contents(We have to make clear that we are talking = about a proprietary log message or somebody may be confused what the = message is. Since it is proprietary, I think we really should not be = getting into this in the standard document, but it is up to you. Also, = I \=0Dwould change it to more generic terminology "SHOULD provide a = diagnostic indication using any standard or proprietary mechanism". = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[438.751678 329.998291 458.751678 = 347.998291]/CreationDate(D:20040907181016-04'00')/NM(k-MFSCyd98aKr5IgA_sK= dB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907181200-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 328 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D328 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D329 0 obj<

it

)/Contents(it)/Type/Annot/= Subj(Note)/Rect[352.501343 291.748169 372.501343 = 309.748169]/CreationDate(D:20040907181229-04'00')/NM(s4-C08r27XPsVMK2Db0S= MB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907181233-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 330 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D330 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D331 0 obj<

I think you are really getting into = implementation-speci\=0Dfic stuff with this entire paragraph. Your last = sentence basically cancels all of the above. I'd yank it all together. =

)/Contents(I think you are really getting into = implementation-specific stuff with this entire paragraph. Your last = sentence basically cancels all of the above. I'd yank it all together. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[436.501678 250.498016 456.501678 = 268.498016]/CreationDate(D:20040907181247-04'00')/NM(jzmtxXmwyRRQbZG37eQ0= yD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907181345-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 332 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D332 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D333 0 obj<

Ignore it? What "it"? Version? = What does &quo\=0Dt;ignore" = mean?

)/Contents(Ignore it? What "it"? Version? What = does "ignore" mean?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[120.750458 139.497574 = 140.750458 = 157.497574]/CreationDate(D:20040907181407-04'00')/NM(LSmRUTgagXDwDR7HNF_1= xA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907181520-04'00')/P 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 334 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D334 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D335 0 obj<

You are really getting into implementation = details as op\=0Dposed to protocol issues. The entire section on = versioning can be expressed in 3 sentenses. as follows: "The = VERSION field is provides the revision number for syslog protocol. The = version for this protocol is "1". protocol version = defines\=0D message syntax and semantics. Subsequent RFC which update = message syntax or semantics of message parts MUST increment the version = number." The fact that implementation may choose ot understand RFC = 3164 message is completely implementation dependent.\=0D The fact = that Version field is required is already defined in section 4. =

)/Contents(You are really getting into implementation = details as opposed to protocol issues. The entire section on versioning = can be expressed in 3 sentenses. as follows: "The VERSION field is = provides the revision number for syslog protocol. The version for this = p\=0Drotocol is "1". protocol version defines message syntax and = semantics. Subsequent RFC which update message syntax or semantics of = message parts MUST increment the version number." The fact that = implementation may choose ot understand RFC 3164 message is = \=0Dcompletely implementation dependent. The fact that Version field = is required is already defined in section 4. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[495.751892 59.997284 515.751892 = 77.997284]/CreationDate(D:20040907181523-04'00')/NM(W8U447ZB52TNX3mGOOOAb= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040907181941-04'00')/P = 27 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 336 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D336 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D337 0 = obj<

"The facility provides a way for = receivers to filte\=0Dr messages base don = categories."

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Remove this. You are thinking syslog library = vendor. I\=0Df I have a device which just opens socket and sends syslog = messages it does not have to be forced to make FACILITY configurable. = It would probably be useful. But required? Maybe a SHOULD? I would also = expand on what "free" configuration means?\=0D Is this like = buffet-style lunch? Just kidding. :\)

)/Contents(Remove = this. You are thinking syslog library vendor. If I have a device which = just opens socket and sends syslog messages it does not have to be = forced to make FACILITY configurable. It would probably be useful. But = required? Maybe a SHOULD? I would a\=0Dlso expand on what "free" = configuration means? Is this like buffet-style lunch? Just kidding. = :\))/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[445.501709 210.747849 465.501709 = 228.747849]/CreationDate(D:20040907182120-04'00')/NM(PgOBvLpT0mW9yDTlLlxL= 1D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907182243-04'00')/P 29 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 341 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D341 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D342 0 obj<>stream =0A= file:///D|/temp/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt<= /rdf:li> = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= =0A= endstream=0Dendobj=0Dxref 21 1 0000118023 00000 n 23 1 0000118250 00000 n 25 1 0000118477 00000 n 27 1 0000118704 00000 n 29 1 0000118931 00000 n 187 1 0000119158 00000 n 189 1 0000119335 00000 n 267 76 0000119494 00000 n 0000120070 00000 n 0000120184 00000 n 0000120300 00000 n 0000120874 00000 n 0000120991 00000 n 0000121618 00000 n 0000121732 00000 n 0000122358 00000 n 0000122474 00000 n 0000123086 00000 n 0000123248 00000 n 0000123365 00000 n 0000124484 00000 n 0000124600 00000 n 0000125415 00000 n 0000125531 00000 n 0000126269 00000 n 0000126385 00000 n 0000126941 00000 n 0000127058 00000 n 0000128190 00000 n 0000128307 00000 n 0000128935 00000 n 0000129050 00000 n 0000129910 00000 n 0000130027 00000 n 0000130567 00000 n 0000130684 00000 n 0000131772 00000 n 0000131889 00000 n 0000132445 00000 n 0000132560 00000 n 0000133220 00000 n 0000133335 00000 n 0000133955 00000 n 0000134101 00000 n 0000134218 00000 n 0000134773 00000 n 0000134890 00000 n 0000135600 00000 n 0000135717 00000 n 0000136501 00000 n 0000136617 00000 n 0000137157 00000 n 0000137273 00000 n 0000137809 00000 n 0000137925 00000 n 0000138483 00000 n 0000138597 00000 n 0000139172 00000 n 0000139288 00000 n 0000139950 00000 n 0000140096 00000 n 0000140213 00000 n 0000140817 00000 n 0000140934 00000 n 0000141510 00000 n 0000141627 00000 n 0000142191 00000 n 0000142308 00000 n 0000143620 00000 n 0000143737 00000 n 0000144267 00000 n 0000144384 00000 n 0000145266 00000 n 0000145383 00000 n 0000146043 00000 n 0000146159 00000 n 0000147959 00000 n 0000148075 00000 n 0000148779 00000 n 0000148829 00000 n 0000148946 00000 n 0000150194 00000 n 0000150311 00000 n trailer <= ]/Prev 117587 >> startxref 153660 %%EOF 187 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D189 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D255 0 obj[254 0 R 256 = 0 R 351 0 R 352 0 R 353 0 R 354 0 R 355 0 R 356 0 R 357 0 R 358 0 R 359 = 0 R 360 0 R 361 0 R 362 0 R 363 0 R 364 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D338 0 obj[337 0 = R 339 0 R 340 0 R 341 0 R 343 0 R 344 0 R 345 0 R 346 0 R 347 0 R 348 0 = R 349 0 R 350 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D343 0 obj<

spell check

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a few supported

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remove comma, I = think

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remove "in reality". or replace = with "in\=0D practice".

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Second sentence is = redundant.

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spell check

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spell check

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"Most importantly, messages designed to = enable debu\=0Dgging or testing of = software..."

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This makes no sense. We are back to this few = of syslog \=0Das a system-local logging mechanism. In a distributed = system, message severity has nothing to do with whether the process is = highly-privileged, core or whatever. In fact, we should not mention = processed here at all.

)/Contents(This makes no sense. = We are back to this few of syslog as a system-local logging mechanism. = In a distributed system, message severity has nothing to do with whether = the process is highly-privileged, core or whatever. In fact, we should = not mention proce\=0Dssed here at all. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[429.001648 410.248627 449.001648 = 428.248627]/CreationDate(D:20040907182603-04'00')/NM(CTi2yyeGIyZcm9EPVsbS= hA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907182715-04'00')/P 31 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 360 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D360 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D361 0 obj<

SHOULD

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I am not sure this sentence make sense. You = can just le\=0Dave the next sentence and remove the first one. Or = "Since severities are very subjective, the receiver SHOULD NOT = assume that all senders have the same definition of severity." I = would not make it a MUST since we are talking about something that\=0D = is hard to define. How would one assume it? =

)/Contents(I am not sure this sentence make sense. = You can just leave the next sentence and remove the first one. Or "Since = severities are very subjective, the receiver SHOULD NOT assume that all = senders have the same definition of severity." I would not make it a = \=0DMUST since we are talking about something that is hard to define. = How would one assume it? )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[333.751282 = 341.248352 353.751282 = 359.248352]/CreationDate(D:20040907182743-04'00')/NM(PLib4ckA2cdbVP7LLxzy= FB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040907182924-04'00')/P 31 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 364 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D364 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D365 0 obj<>stream =0A= file:///D|/temp/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt<= /rdf:li> = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= =0A= endstream=0Dendobj=0Dxref 187 1 0000155540 00000 n 189 1 0000155717 00000 n 255 1 0000155876 00000 n 338 1 0000156022 00000 n 343 23 0000156136 00000 n 0000156684 00000 n 0000156800 00000 n 0000157356 00000 n 0000157472 00000 n 0000158039 00000 n 0000158156 00000 n 0000158808 00000 n 0000158924 00000 n 0000159508 00000 n 0000159625 00000 n 0000160171 00000 n 0000160288 00000 n 0000160834 00000 n 0000160951 00000 n 0000161655 00000 n 0000161772 00000 n 0000162848 00000 n 0000162965 00000 n 0000163501 00000 n 0000163618 00000 n 0000164856 00000 n 0000164973 00000 n trailer <= ]/Prev 153660 >> startxref 168322 %%EOF 33 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 17>>=0Dendobj=0D35 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 18>>=0Dendobj=0D37 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 19>>=0Dendobj=0D39 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 20>>=0Dendobj=0D187 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D189 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D255 0 obj[254 0 R 256 = 0 R 351 0 R 352 0 R 353 0 R 354 0 R 355 0 R 356 0 R 357 0 R 358 0 R 359 = 0 R 360 0 R 361 0 R 362 0 R 363 0 R 364 0 R 366 0 R 367 0 R 368 0 R 369 = 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D366 0 obj<

replace "as taken" with = "derived"

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see earlier = comment

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Is this something that RFC allows? If it = does, I think w\=0De better use space -- it is much cleaner to read and = still parseable just fine. If this is not allowed in RFC, then we don;t = need this statement.

)/Contents(Is this something that = RFC allows? If it does, I think we better use space -- it is much = cleaner to read and still parseable just fine. If this is not allowed in = RFC, then we don;t need this statement. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[426.001617 677.249634 446.001617 = 695.249634]/CreationDate(D:20040908112105-04'00')/NM(CaoDlMtYMdKJela7iiy6= OB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908112215-04'00')/P 33 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 372 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D371 0 obj[370 0 R 372 0 R 373 = 0 R 374 0 R 375 0 R 376 0 R 377 0 R 378 0 R 379 0 R 380 0 R 381 0 R 382 = 0 R 383 0 R 384 0 R 385 0 R 386 0 R 387 0 R 388 0 R 389 0 R 390 0 = R]=0Dendobj=0D372 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D373 0 = obj<

permit

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this extra requirement is redundant; the size = is already\=0D constrained by ABNF definition; this is only extra work = to verify if the two definitions match for = readers

)/Contents(this extra requirement is redundant; = the size is already constrained by ABNF definition; this is only extra = work to verify if the two definitions match for = readers)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[419.251587 610.49939 439.251587 = 628.49939]/CreationDate(D:20040908112340-04'00')/NM(tTAiJHhKOr6KTAghQhWAN= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908112411-04'00')/P = 33 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 376 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D376 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D377 0 = obj<

MUST NOT? or better SHOULD = NOT

)/Contents(MUST NOT? or better SHOULD = NOT)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[252.000961 560.249207 272.000977 = 578.249207]/CreationDate(D:20040908112429-04'00')/NM(CK2RrdsxvMIe3l8-gAvY= 1C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908112443-04'00')/P 33 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 378 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D378 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D379 0 obj<

This section is confusing and contradictory. = Can we just\=0D say that 60 is a valid leap second. I don't see a = problem with that. We just have to say \(if RFC does not already\) that = 12:00.59 < 12:00:60 < 12:01:00. Right? How people convert it for = storage into the database is not our business, I think. Be\=0Dsides this = is such an edge condition that we may disregard it all together. =

)/Contents(This section is confusing and = contradictory. Can we just say that 60 is a valid leap second. I don't = see a problem with that. We just have to say \(if RFC does not = already\) that 12:00.59 < 12:00:60 < 12:01:00. Right? How people = convert it for storage \=0Dinto the database is not our business, I = think. Besides this is such an edge condition that we may disregard it = all together. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[438.751678 499.498962 = 458.751678 = 517.498962]/CreationDate(D:20040908112531-04'00')/NM(b5vU3efPbGChhccJlunv= nB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908112941-04'00')/P 33 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 380 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D380 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D381 0 obj<

redundant, this is in = ABNF

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replace ", and this is" with = "when"<\=0D/span>

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remove

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replace with "whether or = not"

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remove "is something that = actually"

\=0D)/Contents(remove "is something that = actually")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[384.751465 146.997604 404.751465 = 164.997604]/CreationDate(D:20040908113155-04'00')/NM(NeM0jFRrN9vbS_LJsc4y= -B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908113208-04'00')/P 33 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 390 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D390 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D391 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D392 0 obj[]=0Dendobj=0D393 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D394 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D395 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D396 0 obj<

replace "is capable of doing so" = with "su\=0Dpport the clock = function"

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this sentence is redundant with previous = one

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change "here" to = "below"

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this sentence is = redundant

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which

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I think you should get rid of two previous = paragraphs. T\=0Dhey don't add anything over this statement. =

)/Contents(I think you should get rid of two previous = paragraphs. They don't add anything over this statement. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[421.501617 475.498871 441.501617 = 493.498871]/CreationDate(D:20040908113502-04'00')/NM(makYVZbQdCSigSSzrvdi= dC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908113524-04'00')/P 35 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 408 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D408 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D409 0 obj<

I thought we also discussed the devices that = may have no\=0D knowledge of absolute time, but have a clock. For these = devices, people typically put the number of seconds or msec of uptime in = the timestamp. At least Cisco does it for pretty much all of its = devices. At least it provides for some ordering of messages\=0D. So, = are we proposing that these devices put the same constant as defined = here in all messages until they learn the absolute time? We could add a = structured element "uptime" to structured tag = "time", but I am not sure if this is goo\=0Dd. Harder to sort = messages. We need to provide an ability for the device to specify = uptime one way or the other for this scenario. =

)/Contents(I thought we also discussed the devices = that may have no knowledge of absolute time, but have a clock. For these = devices, people typically put the number of seconds or msec of uptime in = the timestamp. At least Cisco does it for pretty much all of its = devi\=0Dces. At least it provides for some ordering of messages. So, = are we proposing that these devices put the same constant as defined = here in all messages until they learn the absolute time? We could add a = structured element "uptime" to structured tag "tim\=0De", but I am not = sure if this is good. Harder to sort messages. We need to provide an = ability for the device to specify uptime one way or the other for this = scenario. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[516.001953 283.498138 536.001953 = 301.498138]/CreationDate(D:20040908114416-04'00')/NM(HmU1r-w2B87bdbFdq1jQ= rD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908114950-04'00')/P 35 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 410 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D410 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D411 0 obj<

insert: "identifier of = the"

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replace IPv4 and IPv6 addresses with "IP = address&qu\=0Dot;.

)/Contents(replace IPv4 and IPv6 = addresses with "IP address".)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[396.001526 = 734.999878 416.001526 = 752.999878]/CreationDate(D:20040908115059-04'00')/NM(qKNu6WiDQV11HVQzgXSV= gD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908115114-04'00')/P 37 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 415 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D414 0 obj[413 0 R 415 0 R 418 = 0 R 419 0 R 420 0 R 421 0 R 422 0 R 423 0 R 424 0 R 425 0 R 426 0 R 427 = 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D415 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D416 0 = obj<

IP address

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I propose that it simply puts = "0.0.0.0" for un\=0Dknown IP. Identification of IP stack = looks like some auxiliary feature that is not relevant to syslog = protocol. We don't need to get into this.

)/Contents(I = propose that it simply puts "0.0.0.0" for unknown IP. Identification of = IP stack looks like some auxiliary feature that is not relevant to = syslog protocol. We don't need to get into this. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[378.751434 555.749146 398.751434 = 573.749146]/CreationDate(D:20040908115222-04'00')/NM(pf9yJeOmYrp-elci2wRr= bD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908115309-04'00')/P 37 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 419 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D419 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D420 0 obj<

replace "shown as" with "in = the format of\=0D"

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replace with "which has both statically = and dynamic\=0Dally assigned addressed, = then..."

)/Contents(replace with "which has both = statically and dynamically assigned addressed, = then...")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[432.001648 194.997787 452.001648 = 212.997787]/CreationDate(D:20040908115526-04'00')/NM(ef6sYbyFWEMvUlFw0aWI= bC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908115653-04'00')/P 37 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 423 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D423 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D424 0 obj<

the sender

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Which "SHOULD"s above are you = referring too? H\=0Dow much above? :\) I don't think this is a way to = do this. If you want them to be MUSTs, then make them MUSTs and = describe the exceptions.

)/Contents(Which "SHOULD"s = above are you referring too? How much above? :\) I don't think this is = a way to do this. If you want them to be MUSTs, then make them MUSTs = and describe the exceptions. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[423.001617 = 99.747437 443.001617 = 117.747437]/CreationDate(D:20040908115930-04'00')/NM(BhlcZbNOodsV1yKff1nl= 2D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908120038-04'00')/P 37 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 427 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D427 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D428 0 obj<

this is = redundant

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Disagree. It is an overloaded term and you = are only intr\=0Doducing confusion by re-using it and no value. =

)/Contents(Disagree. It is an overloaded term and you = are only introducing confusion by re-using it and no value. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[435.001648 553.499146 455.001648 = 571.499146]/CreationDate(D:20040908120148-04'00')/NM(keDR3fB03esqddnJnJ77= 8A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908120219-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 432 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D432 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D433 0 obj<

No, it does not identify classes of messages. = This is wh\=0Dat facility does. Tag identifies the application which = originated the message. This is where I think the use of general term = Tag only confuses things. I would get rid of it as a concept and just = leave SENDER-NAME, SENDER-PROCESS

)/Contents(No, it = does not identify classes of messages. This is what facility does. Tag = identifies the application which originated the message. This is where = I think the use of general term Tag only confuses things. I would get = rid of it as a concept and just le\=0Dave SENDER-NAME, = SENDER-PROCESS)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[303.75116 695.249695 = 323.75116 = 713.249695]/CreationDate(D:20040908120242-04'00')/NM(x6pD4dvKi0kGZAtdRd2k= -B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908120513-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 434 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D434 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D435 0 obj<

I don't like this description, especially the = last part \=0Dthat this is only an intention. What is "more or = less" static mean? Why can't both be static? =

)/Contents(I don't like this description, especially = the last part that this is only an intention. What is "more or less" = static mean? Why can't both be static? = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[401.251526 643.499512 421.251526 = 661.499512]/CreationDate(D:20040908120518-04'00')/NM(brxLy_TRWTVYccXtF0bs= ZA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908120609-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 436 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D436 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D437 0 obj<

don't need to repeat the ABNF notation. = restating it on\=0Dly creates possibilities for out of sync between = description and ABNF and is prone to error \(plus more reading\). Better = state what the SENDER-NAME is supposed to represent -- logical = application name. Why not rename SENDER to APPLICATION \(APP\)? = What\=0D do you have in mind by sender other than an = application?

)/Contents(don't need to repeat the ABNF = notation. restating it only creates possibilities for out of sync = between description and ABNF and is prone to error \(plus more = reading\). Better state what the SENDER-NAME is supposed to represent -- = logical application na\=0Dme. Why not rename SENDER to APPLICATION = \(APP\)? What do you have in mind by sender other than an = application?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[384.001465 451.498779 = 404.001465 = 469.498779]/CreationDate(D:20040908120622-04'00')/NM(PeDe0gnB3YOZ069tmJ4F= _C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908120833-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 438 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D438 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D439 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D440 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D441 0 obj<>stream =0A= file:///D|/temp/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt<= /rdf:li> = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= =0A= endstream=0Dendobj=0Dxref 33 1 0000169066 00000 n 35 1 0000169293 00000 n 37 1 0000169520 00000 n 39 1 0000169747 00000 n 187 1 0000169974 00000 n 189 1 0000170151 00000 n 255 1 0000170310 00000 n 366 76 0000170488 00000 n 0000171102 00000 n 0000171219 00000 n 0000171781 00000 n 0000171897 00000 n 0000172829 00000 n 0000173007 00000 n 0000173124 00000 n 0000173662 00000 n 0000173779 00000 n 0000174631 00000 n 0000174746 00000 n 0000175332 00000 n 0000175449 00000 n 0000176749 00000 n 0000176866 00000 n 0000177444 00000 n 0000177561 00000 n 0000178179 00000 n 0000178295 00000 n 0000178833 00000 n 0000178949 00000 n 0000179543 00000 n 0000179657 00000 n 0000180265 00000 n 0000180381 00000 n 0000180665 00000 n 0000180684 00000 n 0000180800 00000 n 0000181084 00000 n 0000181200 00000 n 0000181880 00000 n 0000182026 00000 n 0000182143 00000 n 0000182759 00000 n 0000182876 00000 n 0000183472 00000 n 0000183589 00000 n 0000184167 00000 n 0000184284 00000 n 0000184820 00000 n 0000184937 00000 n 0000185665 00000 n 0000185782 00000 n 0000187696 00000 n 0000187813 00000 n 0000188403 00000 n 0000188519 00000 n 0000189157 00000 n 0000189271 00000 n 0000189388 00000 n 0000189925 00000 n 0000190042 00000 n 0000190962 00000 n 0000191079 00000 n 0000191711 00000 n 0000191828 00000 n 0000192534 00000 n 0000192650 00000 n 0000193196 00000 n 0000193312 00000 n 0000194225 00000 n 0000194341 00000 n 0000194901 00000 n 0000194999 00000 n 0000195116 00000 n 0000195850 00000 n 0000195967 00000 n 0000197067 00000 n 0000197184 00000 n 0000198026 00000 n 0000198143 00000 n 0000199411 00000 n 0000199528 00000 n 0000199810 00000 n 0000199927 00000 n trailer <= ]/Prev 168322 >> startxref 203276 %%EOF 41 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 21>>=0Dendobj=0D43 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 22>>=0Dendobj=0D45 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 23>>=0Dendobj=0D47 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 24>>=0Dendobj=0D49 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 25>>=0Dendobj=0D51 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 26>>=0Dendobj=0D53 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 27>>=0Dendobj=0D55 0 obj<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text]>>/StructParents 28>>=0Dendobj=0D187 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D189 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D429 0 obj[428 0 R 430 = 0 R 431 0 R 432 0 R 433 0 R 434 0 R 435 0 R 436 0 R 437 0 R 438 0 R 442 = 0 R 443 0 R 444 0 R 445 0 R 446 0 R 447 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D442 0 obj<

Need more precise language. IP also = identifies the sende\=0Dr. You want the logical application name I = think.

)/Contents(Need more precise language. IP also = identifies the sender. You want the logical application name I = think.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[229.50087 376.498505 249.50087 = 394.498505]/CreationDate(D:20040908161347-04'00')/NM(sYrjpElfFrmF8gbkDYoa= 9A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908161419-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 443 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D443 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D444 0 obj<

?

)/Contents(?)/Type/Annot/Su= bj(Note)/Rect[210.000793 337.498322 230.000793 = 355.498322]/CreationDate(D:20040908161433-04'00')/NM(dkoxO6cPq32MlmqEFXzu= xA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908161441-04'00')/P 39 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 445 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D445 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D446 0 obj<

paragraph = redundant

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Can we change SENDER-INST to PROCESS-ID or = SENDER-PROCES\=0DS, since you define it as process = anyway?

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RECOMMENDED \(I suggest you search for all = keywords and \=0Dmake sure they are all = capitalized\)

)/Contents(RECOMMENDED \(I suggest you = search for all keywords and make sure they are all = capitalized\))/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[126.750488 689.249695 = 146.750488 = 707.249695]/CreationDate(D:20040908161607-04'00')/NM(jNPUFtjonkzsE6xUyEPI= FD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908161628-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 452 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D452 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D453 0 obj<

"It is RECOMMENDED that the SENDER-INST = field conta\=0Din the...

)/Contents("It is RECOMMENDED = that the SENDER-INST field contain = the...)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[181.500687 689.249695 201.500687 = 707.249695]/CreationDate(D:20040908161639-04'00')/NM(TrqzGbB4lZYq_HHhBUB2= UB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908161731-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 454 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D454 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D455 0 obj<

wording = issue

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Wording: "No specific format for this = field's data \=0Dis defined."

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process

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Another way to say this is that "-" = is a reser\=0Dved character only to be used to indicate an unidentified = process.

)/Contents(Another way to say this is that "-" = is a reserved character only to be used to indicate an unidentified = process.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[425.251617 561.749207 445.251617 = 579.749207]/CreationDate(D:20040908161924-04'00')/NM(peiTIaoxrU2Kn8b89qV6= xA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908161954-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 462 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D462 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D463 0 obj<

spelling, I don't think example is = necessary

<\=0D/body>)/Contents(spelling, I don't think = example is necessary)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[195.750748 553.499146 = 215.750748 = 571.499146]/CreationDate(D:20040908161958-04'00')/NM(ned4tJBEnYSE4yETrC4f= IA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162012-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 464 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D464 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D465 0 obj<

What does "instance-specific" mean? = What is an\=0D instance? If you are to put a MUST on something, the = language has to be unambiguous. I'd remove this sentence. =

)/Contents(What does "instance-specific" mean? What is = an instance? If you are to put a MUST on something, the language has to = be unambiguous. I'd remove this sentence. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[411.751556 444.748749 431.751556 = 462.748749]/CreationDate(D:20040908162051-04'00')/NM(H9k2s2h66C3-cmQpQ0CZ= HB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162135-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 466 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D466 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D467 0 obj<

contained

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wording: "Syslog messages have = traditionally contai\=0Dned free-form data. This specification defined = an additional field for well-structured = data."

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remove

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remove computer, "parseable and = interpretable"\=0D;.

)/Contents(remove computer, = "parseable and interpretable".)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[60.000229 = 314.24826 80.000229 = 332.24826]/CreationDate(D:20040908162300-04'00')/NM(SQfn2SbgQvYRvMRf_ctfe= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908162329-04'00')/P = 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 474 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D474 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D475 0 = obj<

message?

)/Contents(message?)= /Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[25.500092 299.248199 45.500092 = 317.248199]/CreationDate(D:20040908162340-04'00')/NM(m2uLoaFflEI09ENBcBMg= UA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162353-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 476 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D476 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D477 0 obj<

about

)/Contents(about)/Type/= Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[307.50116 321.74826 327.50116 = 339.74826]/CreationDate(D:20040908162355-04'00')/NM(QGEwseRWtcWIJ4jRFJ3YD= C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908162359-04'00')/P = 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 478 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D478 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D479 0 = obj<

application-specific

)/Conten= ts(application-specific)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[197.250748 = 298.498199 217.250748 = 316.498199]/CreationDate(D:20040908162409-04'00')/NM(FWd3eq8Z2r3TV9OMNNu2= GC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162417-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 480 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D480 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D481 0 obj<

"information such as = ..."

)/Contents("information such as = ...")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[312.00119 297.748169 332.00119 = 315.748169]/CreationDate(D:20040908162423-04'00')/NM(O0hEfwV7dIb6MoQSqXHu= yB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162437-04'00')/P 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 482 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D482 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D483 0 obj<

this is not what ABNF = says

)/Contents(this is not what ABNF = says)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[429.751648 159.74765 449.751648 = 177.74765]/CreationDate(D:20040908162546-04'00')/NM(a1koKdbTpL5KZAe4jlRuT= C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162552-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 484 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D484 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D485 0 obj<

the receiver MUST = NOT

)/Contents(the receiver MUST = NOT)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[192.750732 68.99733 212.750732 = 86.99733]/CreationDate(D:20040908162617-04'00')/NM(W0nPzpc2ifYyHCW4SpJHLC= )/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908162631-04'00')/P = 41 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 486 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D486 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D487 0 = obj<

in this RFC and maybe extended by future = RFCs

\=0D)/Contents(in this RFC and maybe extended by = future RFCs)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[403.501526 585.749268 423.501526 = 603.749268]/CreationDate(D:20040908162703-04'00')/NM(Hzs0JKJFPrGbyTaTzMT4= SB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162748-04'00')/P 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 489 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D488 0 obj[487 0 R 489 0 R 490 = 0 R 491 0 R 494 0 R 495 0 R 496 0 R 497 0 R 498 0 R 499 0 R 500 0 R 501 = 0 R 502 0 R 503 0 R 504 0 R 505 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D489 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D490 0 obj<

outlined in section = xxx

)/Contents(outlined in section = xxx)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[359.251373 434.248718 379.251373 = 452.248718]/CreationDate(D:20040908162822-04'00')/NM(PlA8FcHZhxyerEX1ceZA= cC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162835-04'00')/P 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 491 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D491 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D492 0 obj<

add ASCII

)/Contents(add = ASCII)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[360.001373 404.998596 380.001373 = 422.998596]/CreationDate(D:20040908162852-04'00')/NM(H2ZlNyNd6Nu4mDlh9_N-= tC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162859-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 493 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D493 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D494 0 obj<

beginning

)/Contents(beginnin= g)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[350.251343 382.498505 370.251343 = 400.498505]/CreationDate(D:20040908162905-04'00')/NM(Mg400rQAQ4JqewPEg6QH= OD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908162913-04'00')/P 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 495 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D495 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D496 0 obj<

the

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I don't understand this statement. we sure = have SP chara\=0Dcters outside of structured element. Say in MSG = part.

)/Contents(I don't understand this statement. we = sure have SP characters outside of structured element. Say in MSG = part.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[394.501495 359.998413 414.501495 = 377.998413]/CreationDate(D:20040908162936-04'00')/NM(e9LAFpYkQ9UlwT2MPtd5= wD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908163018-04'00')/P 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 499 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D499 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D500 0 obj<

Before delving into format detail I would = have explained\=0D the basic concept: "Structured data element = consists of a name and parameter name-value pairs." =

)/Contents(Before delving into format detail I would = have explained the basic concept: "Structured data element consists of a = name and parameter name-value pairs." = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[96.000366 469.49884 116.000366 = 487.49884]/CreationDate(D:20040908163042-04'00')/NM(2Vbw0jqbmltVuZyBn6YQG= D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908163127-04'00')/P = 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 501 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D501 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D502 0 = obj<

"This ID is referred to as = SD-ID."

<\=0D/body>)/Contents("This ID is referred to as = SD-ID.")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[146.250565 300.748199 166.250565 = 318.748199]/CreationDate(D:20040908163153-04'00')/NM(e3JYjOxg1XfNhwrNTEL3= 5B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908163209-04'00')/P 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 503 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D503 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D504 0 obj<

several

)/Contents(several)/T= ype/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[256.500977 67.497314 276.500977 = 85.497314]/CreationDate(D:20040908163350-04'00')/NM(xKll820huAmpEWVqZup6m= A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908163355-04'00')/P = 43 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 505 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D505 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D506 0 = obj<

I think you mean PARAM-ID. I don't why you = are restatin\=0Dg all of ABNF.

)/Contents(I think you = mean PARAM-ID. I don't why you are restating all of = ABNF.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[138.000519 743.249878 158.000519 = 761.249878]/CreationDate(D:20040908163432-04'00')/NM(oJTcPPbGiHEuFlYFgv-N= DB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908163502-04'00')/P 45 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 508 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D507 0 obj[506 0 R 508 0 R 509 = 0 R 510 0 R 511 0 R 512 0 R 513 0 R 514 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D508 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D509 0 obj<

RECOMMENDED

)/Contents(RECOMM= ENDED)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[296.251129 386.998535 316.251129 = 404.998535]/CreationDate(D:20040908163633-04'00')/NM(H4WN4fZ-nq8O1HfO1eeK= RD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908163637-04'00')/P 45 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 510 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D510 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D511 0 obj<

Why allow it and then recommend against it? = Just disallo\=0Dw it? there is no technical or visual reason they may be = needed that I can see.

)/Contents(Why allow it and then = recommend against it? Just disallow it? there is no technical or visual = reason they may be needed that I can = see.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[384.001465 296.998169 404.001465 = 314.998169]/CreationDate(D:20040908163700-04'00')/NM(_TobP16W0N8JDwbAw9IM= bA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908163729-04'00')/P 45 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 512 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D512 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D513 0 obj<

this sentence almost contradicts itself. Why = don't we ju\=0Dst make this should a MUST and be done with it? = Introducing more variability in syntax does not help parse developers or = anyone.

)/Contents(this sentence almost contradicts = itself. Why don't we just make this should a MUST and be done with it? = Introducing more variability in syntax does not help parse developers or = anyone.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[435.751678 227.997925 455.751678 = 245.997925]/CreationDate(D:20040908163807-04'00')/NM(UHSwAciBn5MyVb_X-A5X= eA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164043-04'00')/P 45 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 514 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D514 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D515 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D516 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D517 0 obj<

Conflict with = ABNF

)/Contents(Conflict with = ABNF)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[417.751587 173.247711 437.751587 = 191.247711]/CreationDate(D:20040908164113-04'00')/NM(jDxF8dtsT5W58KaDaJfc= kD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164120-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 518 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D518 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D519 0 obj<

this above or this = below?

)/Contents(this above or this = below?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[18.000076 677.999634 38.000076 = 695.999634]/CreationDate(D:20040908164246-04'00')/NM(YKDiakAthjbbRMthOEC9= zB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164255-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 521 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D520 0 obj[519 0 R 521 0 R 522 = 0 R 523 0 R 524 0 R 525 0 R 526 0 R 527 0 R 528 0 R 529 0 R 530 0 R 531 = 0 R 532 0 R 533 0 R 534 0 R 535 0 R 536 0 R 537 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D521 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D522 0 obj<

three

)/Contents(three)/Type/= Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[218.250839 657.749573 238.250839 = 675.749573]/CreationDate(D:20040908164257-04'00')/NM(TkKF46NYccC5C4D1pOI9= CC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164302-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 523 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D523 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D524 0 obj<

remove

)/Contents(remove)/Typ= e/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[275.251038 519.749023 295.251038 = 537.749023]/CreationDate(D:20040908164330-04'00')/NM(-whve9jH77W1NBcFd8tR= RA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164334-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 525 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D525 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D526 0 obj<

follows

)/Contents(follows)/T= ype/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[410.251556 516.749023 430.251556 = 534.749023]/CreationDate(D:20040908164337-04'00')/NM(IRdqax78rNrG9W5GhYMN= sD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164341-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 527 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D527 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D528 0 obj<

don't use conversational English like = "more or less\=0D"

)/Contents(don't use = conversational English like "more or = less")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[79.500305 393.748535 99.500305 = 411.748535]/CreationDate(D:20040908164415-04'00')/NM(aodHfWO_vfcCwXJImCYR= uA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164441-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 529 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D529 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D530 0 obj<

incomplete = sentence

)/Contents(incomplete = sentence)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[377.251434 345.748352 397.251434 = 363.748352]/CreationDate(D:20040908164455-04'00')/NM(YPMvcJNMBFGvS_zrBl0u= BB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164501-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 531 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D531 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D532 0 obj<

Why are we talking about MSG stuff here? = Where is the se\=0Dction on MSG field?

)/Contents(Why = are we talking about MSG stuff here? Where is the section on MSG = field?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[143.250549 321.74826 163.250549 = 339.74826]/CreationDate(D:20040908164628-04'00')/NM(qNIPKuTEjg2U-0KTVR97X= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908164646-04'00')/P = 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 533 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D533 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D534 0 = obj<

looks like a continuation of previously cut = sentence.

)/Contents(looks like a continuation of = previously cut sentence.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[117.750458 = 116.997498 137.750458 = 134.997498]/CreationDate(D:20040908164705-04'00')/NM(5VjtPLoENcbswZhTV14I= 5D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164716-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 535 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D535 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D536 0 obj<

"will be interpreted as part of the MSG = field."\=0D;

)/Contents("will be interpreted as = part of the MSG field.")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[270.001038 99.747437 = 290.001038 = 117.747437]/CreationDate(D:20040908164737-04'00')/NM(Z2eeSIqnnaatv00RZ5kY= xC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164750-04'00')/P 47 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 537 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D537 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D538 0 obj<

conversational = english

)/Contents(conversational = english)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[180.750687 691.499695 200.750687 = 709.499695]/CreationDate(D:20040908164801-04'00')/NM(VoWygp65VS0CY_TKdRB9= tA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164811-04'00')/P 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 540 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D539 0 obj[538 0 R 540 0 R 541 = 0 R 542 0 R 543 0 R 544 0 R 545 0 R 546 0 R 547 0 R 548 0 R 549 0 R 550 = 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D540 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D541 0 = obj<

we have to state if this is a valid = example

)/Contents(we have to state if this is a = valid example)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[195.000748 536.999084 = 215.000748 = 554.999084]/CreationDate(D:20040908164836-04'00')/NM(1tX-lzrVXCMjfmeOMGRM= HC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164848-04'00')/P 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 542 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D542 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D543 0 obj<

Start new = section?

)/Contents(Start new = section?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[75.75029 458.99881 95.75029 = 476.99881]/CreationDate(D:20040908164855-04'00')/NM(s5nwa8JEju2zuUxZwrq1e= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908164901-04'00')/P = 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 544 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D544 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D545 0 = obj<

MUST NOT

)/Contents(MUST = NOT)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[150.00058 305.99823 170.00058 = 323.99823]/CreationDate(D:20040908164918-04'00')/NM(_cWgPNesCHR6Pt9dEjyfB= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908164922-04'00')/P = 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 546 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D546 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D547 0 = obj<

repeated = paragraph

)/Contents(repeated = paragraph)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[454.50174 237.747955 474.50174 = 255.747955]/CreationDate(D:20040908164932-04'00')/NM(k_fU6NmXcDK-BAmNTMOm= vD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908164942-04'00')/P 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 548 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D548 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D549 0 obj<

MUST

)/Contents(MUST)/Type/An= not/Subj(Note)/Rect[135.750519 113.247482 155.750519 = 131.247482]/CreationDate(D:20040908165011-04'00')/NM(c6GroQxnoF-fxOAzXXKl= fD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165015-04'00')/P 49 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 550 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D550 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D551 0 obj<

I'd remove the last sentence. I am not sure = I agree wit\=0Dh this recommendation. It largely depend on what you are = trying to do.

)/Contents(I'd remove the last sentence. = I am not sure I agree with this recommendation. It largely depend on = what you are trying to do. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[408.751556 = 534.749084 428.751556 = 552.749084]/CreationDate(D:20040908165053-04'00')/NM(fZh59yQXMdk1oXewUK0c= jD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165122-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 553 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D552 0 obj[551 0 R 553 0 R 554 = 0 R 555 0 R 556 0 R 557 0 R 558 0 R 559 0 R 560 0 R 561 0 R 562 0 R 563 = 0 R 564 0 R 565 0 R 566 0 R 567 0 R 570 0 R 571 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D553 0 = obj<>=0Dendobj=0D554 0 obj<

"The following are examples of valid = syslog message\=0Ds:"

)/Contents("The following = are examples of valid syslog = messages:")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[234.7509 446.248749 254.7509 = 464.248749]/CreationDate(D:20040908165152-04'00')/NM(wQHiIEq2BTYh-m_OEVZ3= pD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165204-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 555 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D555 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D556 0 obj<

TAG must be two elements separated by a space = now\=0D

)/Contents(TAG must be two elements separated = by a space now)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[406.501556 396.748566 = 426.501556 = 414.748566]/CreationDate(D:20040908165250-04'00')/NM(pJeCF1NWWZctTcEQLg7F= DC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165303-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 557 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D557 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D558 0 obj<

remove stuff in = brackets

)/Contents(remove stuff in = brackets)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[283.501068 336.748322 303.501068 = 354.748322]/CreationDate(D:20040908165312-04'00')/NM(a_tc926fYZfeN64bxU1D= wD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165318-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 559 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D559 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D560 0 obj<

remove stuff in = brackets

)/Contents(remove stuff in = brackets)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[423.001617 314.24826 443.001617 = 332.24826]/CreationDate(D:20040908165323-04'00')/NM(0YzXuDilNzK3MJtlxr3G_= C)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908165329-04'00')/P = 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 561 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D561 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D562 0 = obj<

This note on msec resolution is better places = in timesta\=0Dmp section.

)/Contents(This note on msec = resolution is better places in timestamp = section.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[411.001556 239.247955 431.001556 = 257.247955]/CreationDate(D:20040908165354-04'00')/NM(gLWhc3VKkGte9jR4y8LJ= jA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165406-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 563 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D563 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D564 0 obj<

"from host identified = as..."

\=0D)/Contents("from host identified = as...")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[388.501495 218.997894 408.501495 = 236.997894]/CreationDate(D:20040908165419-04'00')/NM(aGuCoFIscn4YYsWApDVf= GD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165432-04'00')/P 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 565 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D565 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D566 0 obj<

What is sender name and sender = process?

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second/duplicate mention of = this

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I'd remove this paragraph. We can't give = guidance on tr\=0Divial things like this I think. It is not a = programming course after all. We have to assume higher level of = intelligence of our readers. If one person makes this mistake, so be it. = It will be fixed just like any bug. This would not make RFC incomplete = or \=0Dimprecise.

)/Contents(I'd remove this = paragraph. We can't give guidance on trivial things like this I think. = It is not a programming course after all. We have to assume higher level = of intelligence of our readers. If one person makes this mistake, so be = it. It will be fixed j\=0Dust like any bug. This would not make RFC = incomplete or imprecise. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[474.001801 = 66.747299 494.001801 = 84.747299]/CreationDate(D:20040908165610-04'00')/NM(xgo0m8WY-5qEvbjBpCmHu= A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908165739-04'00')/P = 51 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 571 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D571 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D572 0 = obj<

Again issue with = TAG

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?

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Use of facility 20 does not assume anything. = There is n\=0Dot special meaning to the fact that it is within the = legacy range and we should not make this distinction at all -- just = don't mention it.

)/Contents(Use of facility 20 does = not assume anything. There is not special meaning to the fact that it = is within the legacy range and we should not make this distinction at = all -- just don't mention it. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[428.251648 = 308.24823 448.251648 = 326.24823]/CreationDate(D:20040908165840-04'00')/NM(Dh6OpolG7Del0mGGMhOnL= D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908165915-04'00')/P = 53 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 578 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D578 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D579 0 = obj<

remove stuff in = brackets

)/Contents(remove stuff in = brackets)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[195.750748 247.497986 215.750748 = 265.497986]/CreationDate(D:20040908165923-04'00')/NM(poiqrgKvjX-KJQxVJNbW= aB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908165929-04'00')/P 53 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 580 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D580 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D581 0 obj<

the statement about timezone assumption is = not needed

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domain = name

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issue

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Why ass a confusing example and write about = speculations\=0D?

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Why such an obscure message with crazy %% = fields. This \=0Donly serves to confuse the = reader.

)/Contents(Why such an obscure message with = crazy %% fields. This only serves to confuse the = reader.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[400.501526 83.997375 420.501526 = 101.997375]/CreationDate(D:20040908170143-04'00')/NM(C6rx_FK-eEU7rPCcgBC2= qB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908170202-04'00')/P 53 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 592 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D592 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D593 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D594 0 obj[593 0 R 595 0 R 596 = 0 R 597 0 R 598 0 R 599 0 R 600 0 R 601 0 R 602 0 R 603 0 = R]=0Dendobj=0D595 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D596 0 = obj<

I think examples of valid and invalid = timestamps belong \=0Din a timestamp section and here examples should be = of overall message syntax. Basically, show a message and say what's the = value of each field is.

)/Contents(I think examples of = valid and invalid timestamps belong in a timestamp section and here = examples should be of overall message syntax. Basically, show a message = and say what's the value of each field is. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[414.751587 625.499451 434.751587 = 643.499451]/CreationDate(D:20040908170230-04'00')/NM(6SpYTRY8BgmxqkRbTz65= mA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908170308-04'00')/P 55 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 597 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D597 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D598 0 obj<

tag

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1

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You already have an example of this in = previous section.\=0D

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notion

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I think if you don't prohibit against = something, it is a\=0Dssumed that it is a MAY everywhere, so it is = redundant.

)/Contents(I think if you don't prohibit = against something, it is assumed that it is a MAY everywhere, so it is = redundant. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[382.501465 554.999146 402.501465 = 572.999146]/CreationDate(D:20040908170531-04'00')/NM(PUAkFd5jeHI8oG35AM2O= 2A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908170611-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 609 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D609 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D610 0 obj<

indication

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of

)/Contents(of)/Type/Annot/= Subj(Note)/Rect[249.750946 521.999023 269.750946 = 539.999023]/CreationDate(D:20040908170635-04'00')/NM(Gos71y9IcIMOoGuO50_6= UC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908170638-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 613 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D613 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D614 0 obj<

not clear what so refers to \(I can guess of = course\)

)/Contents(not clear what so refers to \(I = can guess of course\))/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[290.251099 419.248657 = 310.251099 = 437.248657]/CreationDate(D:20040908170658-04'00')/NM(0_28fjJRz2USkBcW_2Yh= 1D)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908170715-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 615 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D615 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D616 0 obj<

shoudl we use "true/false" = instead?

\=0D)/Contents(shoudl we use "true/false" = instead?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[440.251678 407.248596 460.251678 = 425.248596]/CreationDate(D:20040908171009-04'00')/NM(FLfAduJguZHq-F_FYCkA= QB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171019-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 617 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D617 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D618 0 obj<

RECOMMENDED?

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source

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authoritative

)/Contents(auth= oritative)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[274.501038 204.747833 294.501038 = 222.747833]/CreationDate(D:20040908171141-04'00')/NM(t5yttK-VmA37tTocaqLt= xB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171146-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 623 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D623 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D624 0 obj<

remove = we know?

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I would add that: "The sender MAY = determine whethe\=0Dr or not is synchronized to an external time source = via integration with

)/Contents(I would add that: "The = sender MAY determine whether or not is synchronized to an external time = source via integration with)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[97.500381 = 702.749756 117.500381 = 720.749756]/CreationDate(D:20040908171323-04'00')/NM(YKxq_Qr-JJKO-fVfnwOo= vD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171409-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 628 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D627 0 obj[]=0Dendobj=0D628 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D629 0 obj<

I don't quite understand this parameter. I = don't think \=0Dit is needed. I don't know how one would ever determine = the range of accuracy.

)/Contents(I don't quite = understand this parameter. I don't think it is needed. I don't know = how one would ever determine the range of accuracy. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[142.500549 509.999023 162.500549 = 527.999023]/CreationDate(D:20040908171608-04'00')/NM(vzY8SWmYBNDcI8Z5XXgV= MD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171649-04'00')/T(aokmians)/Popup 631 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D630 0 obj[640 0 R 641 0 R 649 0 R 650 0 = R]=0Dendobj=0D631 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D632 0 = obj<

Should we say that parameter should only be = present when\=0D tzknown=3D0. Otherwise, we should assume time zone info = is correct.

)/Contents(Should we say that parameter = should only be present when tzknown=3D0. Otherwise, we should assume = time zone info is correct. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[117.750458 = 457.498779 137.750458 = 475.498779]/CreationDate(D:20040908171709-04'00')/NM(up-0Pa0h1_DRjlc0L5as= oB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171757-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 633 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D633 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D634 0 obj<

What does a time without time zone mean? Is = it useful? \=0DMaybe just for relative message ordering I = guess.

)/Contents(What does a time without time zone = mean? Is it useful? Maybe just for relative message ordering I = guess.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[163.500626 461.24881 183.500626 = 479.24881]/CreationDate(D:20040908171814-04'00')/NM(TUhXJRy56inJGyhdNCDii= A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908171851-04'00')/P = 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 635 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D635 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D636 0 = obj<

as a

)/Contents(as = a)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[289.501099 322.498291 309.501099 = 340.498291]/CreationDate(D:20040908171905-04'00')/NM(kvuGOTd6AiczHwzQHHTl= YA)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908171910-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 637 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D637 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D638 0 obj<

I would remove this and next paragraph. I = don't think w\=0De can get too much into what a given value means in = terms of implementation. This field is provided for the sender to = indicate that time zone is wrong and therefore time/date is wrong. How = it determines it should be left to implementation. =

<\=0D/body>)/Contents(I would remove this and next paragraph. = I don't think we can get too much into what a given value means in = terms of implementation. This field is provided for the sender to = indicate that time zone is wrong and therefore time/date is wrong. How = it deter\=0Dmines it should be left to implementation. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[448.501709 276.748108 468.501709 = 294.748108]/CreationDate(D:20040908171921-04'00')/NM(0S71a6_v8qjNOiQ1oT9L= 7B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172035-04'00')/P 59 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 639 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D639 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D640 0 obj<

MAY, but really I would not suggest = implementation detai\=0Dls where we don't have to. =

)/Contents(MAY, but really I would not suggest = implementation details where we don't have to. = )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[161.25061 65.997299 181.25061 = 83.997299]/CreationDate(D:20040908172114-04'00')/NM(-6krjaEW8F6Akefi4AmnU= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908172138-04'00')/P = 61 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 641 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D641 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D642 0 = obj<

knowledge = of

)/Contents(knowledge = of)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[310.50119 725.999817 330.50119 = 743.999817]/CreationDate(D:20040908172147-04'00')/NM(y8V6_N0-z6H5zbX1Dc2e= ZD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172155-04'00')/P 63 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 644 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D643 0 obj[642 0 R 644 0 R 645 = 0 R 646 0 R 647 0 R 648 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D644 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D645 0 obj<>>>=0Dendobj=0D646 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D647 0 obj<

Propose to remove this paragraph. I don't = know what it a\=0Ddds to the = specification.

)/Contents(Propose to remove this = paragraph. I don't know what it adds to the = specification.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[405.751556 601.499329 = 425.751556 = 619.499329]/CreationDate(D:20040908172240-04'00')/NM(QfGp4hWCIL4_Zj-cnMvX= bC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172313-04'00')/P 63 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 648 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D648 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D649 0 obj<

I believe this tag will not be generally = useful. It wou\=0Dld require extremely tight integration with NTP \(or = similar\) service which will be rare. I think we should remove this = tag.

)/Contents(I believe this tag will not be = generally useful. It would require extremely tight integration with NTP = \(or similar\) service which will be rare. I think we should remove this = tag.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[130.500504 515.999023 150.500504 = 533.999023]/CreationDate(D:20040908172419-04'00')/NM(TiPwGuUrDwS37wWRMJd1= tD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172515-04'00')/P 61 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 650 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D650 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D651 0 obj<

remove

)/Contents(remove)/Typ= e/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[258.750977 604.499329 278.750977 = 622.499329]/CreationDate(D:20040908172601-04'00')/NM(AYyzLbed3IiCVbcJL6_x= DB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172607-04'00')/P 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 653 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D652 0 obj[651 0 R 653 0 R 654 = 0 R 655 0 R 656 0 R 657 0 R 658 0 R 659 0 R 660 0 R 661 0 R 662 0 R 663 = 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D653 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D654 0 = obj<

this assumes that message format can be = changed in fligh\=0Dt which you said should not be done; I would also = argue that this does not "indicate the origin of the syslog = message" as stated above for origin tag. =

)/Contents(this assumes that message format can be = changed in flight which you said should not be done; I would also argue = that this does not "indicate the origin of the syslog message" as stated = above for origin tag. )/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[93.750366 650.999512 = 113.750366 = 668.999512]/CreationDate(D:20040908172627-04'00')/NM(B4nvW5AR1yK0gzwFHtpD= cB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172734-04'00')/P 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 655 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D655 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D656 0 obj<

MUST

)/Contents(MUST)/Type/An= not/Subj(Note)/Rect[96.000366 419.248657 116.000366 = 437.248657]/CreationDate(D:20040908172758-04'00')/NM(C1gfojbww9Eeybv_b4gJ= WD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172802-04'00')/P 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 657 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D657 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D658 0 obj<

this sentence is = redundant.

)/Contents(this sentence is = redundant.)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[426.001617 378.748505 446.001617 = 396.748505]/CreationDate(D:20040908172805-04'00')/NM(Wj0ssboBKXN91hN-1g0R= tD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172815-04'00')/P 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 659 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D659 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D660 0 obj<

change to lower = case

)/Contents(change to lower = case)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[406.501556 314.99826 426.501556 = 332.99826]/CreationDate(D:20040908172828-04'00')/NM(kvQz9dUhgZFXOQQHX65fq= B)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 0.0]/M(D:20040908172840-04'00')/P = 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 661 0 R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D661 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D662 0 = obj<

whose

)/Contents(whose)/Type/= Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[160.50061 95.247421 180.50061 = 113.247421]/CreationDate(D:20040908172854-04'00')/NM(mg3bffN1rz2QpIYh6N87= nD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172922-04'00')/P 65 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 663 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D663 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D664 0 obj<

are we re-using SNMP enterprise ID? if so = state it

)/Contents(are we re-using SNMP enterprise = ID? if so state it)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[150.00058 671.999634 = 170.00058 = 689.999634]/CreationDate(D:20040908172941-04'00')/NM(zFWyf4Pyy91__stGZeVJ= sC)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908172955-04'00')/P 67 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 666 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D665 0 obj[664 0 R 666 0 R 667 = 0 R 668 0 R 669 0 R 670 0 R]=0Dendobj=0D666 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D667 0 obj<

Is this is the same as = SENDER-NAME?

)/Contents(Is this is the same as = SENDER-NAME?)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[89.250351 631.499451 109.250351 = 649.499451]/CreationDate(D:20040908173013-04'00')/NM(ihufYoddz4O2hqmmGYbL= vB)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908173028-04'00')/P 67 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 668 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D668 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D669 0 obj<

Change to = "sw-version"

)/Contents(Change to = "sw-version")/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[109.500427 413.998627 = 129.500427 = 431.998627]/CreationDate(D:20040908173100-04'00')/NM(mF5B00gyA77Jtr6qTG8r= qD)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908173112-04'00')/P 67 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 670 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D670 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D671 0 obj<

WIP, so I did not read the rest of = it

)/Contents(WIP, so I did not read the rest of = it)/Type/Annot/Subj(Note)/Rect[408.001556 549.749146 428.001556 = 567.749146]/CreationDate(D:20040908173132-04'00')/NM(uNI-9zvQ28hVwd-ai64c= 6A)/Name/Comment/Subtype/Text/C[1.0 1.0 = 0.0]/M(D:20040908173146-04'00')/P 69 0 R/T(aokmians)/Popup 673 0 = R/AP<>>>=0Dendobj=0D672 0 obj[671 0 R 673 0 = R]=0Dendobj=0D673 0 obj<>=0Dendobj=0D674 0 = obj<>stream =0A= file:///D|/temp/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt<= /rdf:li> = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= = =0A= =0A= endstream=0Dendobj=0Dxref 59 1 0000272174 00000 n 61 1 0000272401 00000 n 63 1 0000272628 00000 n 65 1 0000272855 00000 n 67 1 0000273082 00000 n 69 1 0000273309 00000 n 187 1 0000273536 00000 n 189 1 0000273713 00000 n 605 70 0000273872 00000 n 0000274408 00000 n 0000274650 00000 n 0000274767 00000 n 0000275521 00000 n 0000275638 00000 n 0000276184 00000 n 0000276301 00000 n 0000276831 00000 n 0000276948 00000 n 0000277582 00000 n 0000277699 00000 n 0000278307 00000 n 0000278424 00000 n 0000278970 00000 n 0000279085 00000 n 0000279623 00000 n 0000279739 00000 n 0000280291 00000 n 0000280408 00000 n 0000280969 00000 n 0000281085 00000 n 0000281854 00000 n 0000281873 00000 n 0000281990 00000 n 0000282781 00000 n 0000282831 00000 n 0000282948 00000 n 0000283724 00000 n 0000283841 00000 n 0000284577 00000 n 0000284692 00000 n 0000285226 00000 n 0000285343 00000 n 0000286473 00000 n 0000286590 00000 n 0000287280 00000 n 0000287396 00000 n 0000287944 00000 n 0000288010 00000 n 0000288127 00000 n 0000288418 00000 n 0000288535 00000 n 0000289225 00000 n 0000289342 00000 n 0000290232 00000 n 0000290349 00000 n 0000290887 00000 n 0000291001 00000 n 0000291118 00000 n 0000292069 00000 n 0000292186 00000 n 0000292719 00000 n 0000292836 00000 n 0000293416 00000 n 0000293533 00000 n 0000294097 00000 n 0000294212 00000 n 0000294745 00000 n 0000294861 00000 n 0000295487 00000 n 0000295553 00000 n 0000295670 00000 n 0000296265 00000 n 0000296382 00000 n 0000296962 00000 n 0000297079 00000 n 0000297679 00000 n 0000297713 00000 n 0000297830 00000 n trailer <<96d893f576ca3b4990551177fa77fbd2>= ]/Prev 268448 >> startxref 301179 %%EOF ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C495CA.AD6ADA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C495CA.AD6ADA50-- From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Thu Sep 9 08:03:59 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA11389 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CAA5C765; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from waga.cysol.co.jp (waga.cysol.co.jp [210.233.3.228]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C455C72E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aso.priv.cysol.co.jp (aso.priv.cysol.co.jp [192.168.0.15]) by waga.cysol.co.jp (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i895UmlI024569; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:30:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from cysols.com (zoe.priv.cysol.co.jp [192.168.0.233]) by aso.priv.cysol.co.jp (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i895UkAR021885; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:30:46 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <413FEA80.1080506@cysols.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:30:40 +0900 From: Glenn Mansfield Keeni Organization: Cyber Solutions Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean-Francois Mule Subject: Re: [Syslog-sec] what is the status of syslog device MIB? References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.83.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 05:03:54 -0700 Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Now that the syslog protocol (draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-05.txt) and other relevant drafts have stabilised another revision of the draft is in order. I would expect it to be ready by mid-october. Glenn Jean-Francois Mule wrote: > Hi, > > The ID draft-ietf-syslog-device-mib-05.txt has expired. The ID > tracker does not show much status info. > > What is the current status of this MIB module? > > Jean-Francois > jfm@cablelabs.com > _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 07:51:51 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16856 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3F15C77C; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C96A5C729 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D569C761; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:21:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09115-04; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:21:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB0B9C755; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:21:20 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:10:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE58@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rg From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: "Anton Okmianski" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:48 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton,=20 > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > >=20 > > ###### > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). This > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > Implementors > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > documentation. > > ###### > >=20 > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of=20 > > 65,000 bytes, because this is the required minimum in=20 > > -protocol 4.1. We agreed on this minimum after long=20 > > discussions on the message size. I'd actually prefer not to=20 > > re-iterate this. But if we must, let me say that a guaranteed=20 > > message size of 507 bytes looks far too low to me. > >=20 > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all=20 > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > >=20 > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > >=20 > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max=20 > > message size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make=20 > > sense to sync this. I can go up with my number. >=20 > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of conclusions > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as it > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum > message size as the common denominator may be too small.=20 I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list archive. Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors to support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare initiative tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. >=20 > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation > must be supported by transport implementors. =20 This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for the acutal message. Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST be supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not counting meta data in structured ids....). > However, a full > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up to > 16777216 bytes. =20 >=20 > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different > limit.=20 That's already there ;) >=20 > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so we > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available > memory will be an issue. =20 >=20 > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should we > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum > supported message size?=20 >=20 > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO.=20 >=20 > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints.=20 >=20 > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed > for good.=20 >=20 > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > >=20 > > ##### > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > allowed. > > ##### > >=20 > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd=20 > > appreciate if you could elaborate a little. >=20 > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 >=20 > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific > anyway. What do you think? I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might just have been my personal problem ;) Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 07:52:35 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16913 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC25E5C79B; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4A55C764 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080F59C761 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:23:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09115-07 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:23:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C316C9C755 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:23:10 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:12:08 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE64@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: -protocol: describing relays Thread-Index: AcSXFj+ntet9uMU0Q922xqC9tdHoDQ== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:48 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: describing relays X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton comments on the description of relays: #### Not sure about this. I would thing relay is also a "syslog server". Better omit. We don't need to mention legacy terminology if it is confusing.=20 #### I think the description of a relay as a separate entitiy is not legacy, but vital. If we look at RFC 3195/COOKED, there are definitely different rules for relays than for normal collectors. I think relays have very special operations and as such I think we should describe this entity. Comments? Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 07:52:58 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17028 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399605C7A7; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20405C723 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D799C761 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:40:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09166-05 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:40:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E399C755 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:40:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:29:37 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE66@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: -protocol: captial "V" in version ID Thread-Index: AcSXGLChBrHkDrorTZS0fy61szV+xQ== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:48 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: captial "V" in version ID X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Though it looks like a small issue, I think it deserves some attention. Anton says regarding the "V" version identifier: ### Can we make it a small "v"? Just the visual appeal. The upper case is considered screaming. We don't want the version to scream. :) ### Actually, I like the use of "v" in -transport and "V" in -protocol. It might help detect cases where an implementor simply send a -protocol package over a raw UDP socket... Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 07:53:27 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17064 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851545C7AC; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0917D5C730 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3119C761 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09166-06 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:46:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC49C755 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:46:43 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:35:44 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE67@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: -protocol: number of facilities Thread-Index: AcSXGYtm3Pf5ujcaQuixGCBv2cMJ3A== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:51:48 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: number of facilities X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton comments: #### I thought we said that this will be limited to a smaller number. People were concerned how you would configure all facilities. I personally, don't necessarily see it as a problem. One would define specific facilities, and have catch-all ("*") for the rest of them. =20 #### I think we did not agree on that. As far as I have on my mind, there was concensus that a large number does not hurt but can potentially help. This is what I tracked down: http://www.syslog.cc/ietf/protocol/issue5.html Any comments? Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 09:28:45 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24621 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9E85C760; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1989C5C781 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djyxpy41 (h00104b8ce2a3.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.128.104.220]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <200409101305400110020dise>; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:05:40 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Rainer Gerhards'" , "'Anton Okmianski'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:05:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE58@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rgAAo3QwA= Message-Id: <20040910130541.1989C5C781@willers.employees.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:28:43 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietfdbh@comcast.net List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute requirement of the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number that could be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to create a MUST. I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send larger messages. You could also identify some expected use cases, such as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect support for larger sizes. You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size. The market can decide whether those implementations that only support 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will probably be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't be the author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own preferences and their company's use cases. Dbh -----Original Message----- From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer Gerhards Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Anton, > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > > > ###### > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). This > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > Implementors > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > documentation. > > ###### > > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of 65,000 > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low to > > me. > > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max message > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync > > this. I can go up with my number. > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of conclusions > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as it > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum > message size as the common denominator may be too small. I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list archive. Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors to support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare initiative tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation > must be supported by transport implementors. This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for the acutal message. Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST be supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not counting meta data in structured ids....). > However, a full > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up to > 16777216 bytes. > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different > limit. That's already there ;) > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so we > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available > memory will be an issue. > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should we > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum > supported message size? > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed > for good. > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > > > ##### > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > allowed. > > ##### > > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate > > if you could elaborate a little. > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > same MessageId and source port among other things. > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific > anyway. What do you think? I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might just have been my personal problem ;) Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 09:29:21 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24667 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFC95C72E; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ext-ch1gw-6.online-age.net (ext-ch1gw-6.online-age.net [64.37.194.14]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E945C79B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-ch1gw-5.online-age.net (int-ch1gw-5 [3.159.232.69]) by ext-ch1gw-6.online-age.net (8.12.11/8.12.11/20050527-JWF) with ESMTP id i8ACQ7Ou028473 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:26:07 -0400 Received: from cinmlef02.e2k.ad.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-ch1gw-5.online-age.net (8.12.9/8.12.3/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id i8ACRYUk022270 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com ([3.159.176.54]) by cinmlef02.e2k.ad.ge.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:27:33 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6562.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: <45A5295FFA1CBE4D9BF44E8534D2686C7D1408@MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rgAAj5fIA= From: "Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)" To: "Rainer Gerhards" , "Anton Okmianski" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2004 12:27:33.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C700600:01C49731] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:29:18 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rainer, I apologize for not reviewing the syslog documents and commenting. I can't claim anything other than moderate understanding of any of the syslog specifications. But you mention healthcare requirements. I presume you are talking about the IHE efforts. There are a few items that we have identified: A) Max message size (you pointed it out.) We called for 32768. Our newest schema is even more detailed, and I don't think there is a single message that would fit in 512 bytes. The other factor is that we figured that syslog servers/relays are usually on real operating systems and thus ip frag/reassembly was not unreasonable (or should be designed to handle IP frag/reassembly). The message creators would be self-imposed, thus a medical device vendor would need to self-design a system that either made small messages, or included IP fragmentation. (Please don't add fragmentation anywhere other than network layer). B) We need UTF-8. I think you got that covered now. We figured that the BSD syslog was silent and thus just carried . Since UTF-8 is externally bytes, we figured it would work.=20 C) We are using XML, thus there is a question about the new-line characters. I am not sure if syslog requires that a single event be made up of a single line of text. If this is the case then we will have to collapse the new-line characters. This isn't a problem, as it still is well-formed xml. But it is something that we didn't think about until lately. When we threw our document on the wall, we expected if these assumptions were not going to work, that someone or some implementation would force the issue. Even if it didn't come up, we also are just "Profiling" and not "standardizing". Thus a product can be conformant to the standard and not conformant to our profile. With a little effort they could be conformant to our profile as well. Thus it was just a set of rules to ensure that our needs were met and that interoperability could happen. John=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 09:29:57 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24770 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289665C7CC; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6385C79B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1320D9C761; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:30:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09341-09; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:29:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CE09C755; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:29:50 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:18:38 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE77@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rgAAo3QwAAAM2lUA== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: , "Anton Okmianski" , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:29:34 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List, I think there is a lot of wisdom and obviously a lot of experience in what David says. So even though I have strong concerns that a guaranteed size of just 480 octets is not wise, I would accept it if nobody else objects violently. Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:06 PM > To: Rainer Gerhards; 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute requirement of > the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't > support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size > selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number that could > be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to > create a MUST. >=20 > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but > also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send > larger messages. You could also identify some expected use cases, such > as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect > support for larger sizes. >=20 > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then > implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size. > The market can decide whether those implementations that only support > 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free > 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay > for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will probably > be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't be the > author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own > preferences and their company's use cases. >=20 >=20 > Dbh >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Anton,=20 >=20 > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > >=20 > > > ###### > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > This > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > Implementors > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > documentation. > > > ###### > > >=20 > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > 65,000=20 > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We=20 > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. >=20 > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me >=20 > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low > to=20 > > > me. > > >=20 > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all=20 > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > >=20 > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > >=20 > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > message=20 > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync >=20 > > > this. I can go up with my number. > >=20 > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > conclusions=20 > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we=20 > > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as > it=20 > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum >=20 > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. >=20 > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list archive. > Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like > there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong > understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. >=20 > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors to > support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size > should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare initiative > tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at > least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > >=20 > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation=20 > > must be supported by transport implementors. >=20 > This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K > (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the > additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for the > acutal message. >=20 > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST be > supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon > become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very > concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes > sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold > enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have > some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a > standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not > counting meta data in structured ids....). >=20 > > However, a full > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > to > > 16777216 bytes. =20 > >=20 > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a=20 > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different=20 > > limit. >=20 > That's already there ;) >=20 > >=20 > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to=20 > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so > we=20 > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support=20 > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available=20 > > memory will be an issue. > >=20 > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > we=20 > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum >=20 > > supported message size? > >=20 > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to=20 > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > >=20 > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by >=20 > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that >=20 > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport >=20 > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced=20 > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still=20 > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > >=20 > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed >=20 > > for good. > >=20 > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > >=20 > > > ##### > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > allowed. > > > ##### > > >=20 > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate >=20 > > > if you could elaborate a little. > >=20 > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which=20 > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it=20 > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket=20 > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated >=20 > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 > >=20 > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports >=20 > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem=20 > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific=20 > > anyway. What do you think? >=20 > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) > Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might > just have been my personal problem ;) >=20 > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 10:05:09 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27849 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF155C73B; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:05:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ext-nj2gw-3.online-age.net (ext-nj2gw-3.online-age.net [216.35.73.165]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8845C79B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-nj2gw-3.online-age.net (int-nj2gw-3 [3.159.236.67]) by ext-nj2gw-3.online-age.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id i8AE4ZYW008023 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cinmlef02.e2k.ad.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-nj2gw-3.online-age.net (8.12.9/8.12.8/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id i8AE4VpO000215 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com ([3.159.176.54]) by cinmlef02.e2k.ad.ge.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:58:05 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6562.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:57:29 -0500 Message-ID: <45A5295FFA1CBE4D9BF44E8534D2686C7D154B@MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rgAAo3QwAAAM2lUAABMr+w From: "Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)" To: "Rainer Gerhards" , , "Anton Okmianski" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2004 13:58:05.0731 (UTC) FILETIME=[32165F30:01C4973E] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:05:08 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I truly don't understand why syslog cares about max-size as defined in IP. It can say: "Due to a protocol binding to udp, big messages may get fragmented. This fragmentation increases the risk of the message not getting delivered." The only reason for syslog to use any SHOULD/MUST language on this subject is to assure a syslog user that a 'syslog' implementation will be able to create messages with a payload of n size, and that if this message gets through the gauntlet that is udp/ip, it will be consumed without buffer size rejects. Going over UDP, you can't give any form of assurance that it will be delivered. This lack of assurance is simply made worse if the udp packet is big. On the max-size issue... What IHE is concerned with is profiling a use-case that is forbidden by standards or not implementable given current systems. Thus we are more interested in the syslog-max-size, than the assurance issue. If we truly can't expect a syslog implementation (client and server) to handle a message bigger than 480 octets; then we must abandon the use of udp-syslog. We have no choice but to go with Reliable syslog. We will have to go to Reliable-syslog, not for the reliability aspect, but because we know our payload won't be rejected simply because it is big. In our design of the schema we understood that a message might not get there if we are bound to udp-syslog. We understood that the larger the message the bigger this un-reliability is. OSI layers are GOOD... John -----Original Message----- From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer Gerhards Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:19 AM To: ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Hi List, I think there is a lot of wisdom and obviously a lot of experience in what David says. So even though I have strong concerns that a guaranteed size of just 480 octets is not wise, I would accept it if nobody else objects violently. Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:06 PM > To: Rainer Gerhards; 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute requirement of > the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't > support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size > selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number that could > be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to > create a MUST. >=20 > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but > also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send > larger messages. You could also identify some expected use cases, such > as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect > support for larger sizes. >=20 > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then > implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size. > The market can decide whether those implementations that only support > 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free > 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay > for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will probably > be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't be the > author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own > preferences and their company's use cases. >=20 >=20 > Dbh >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Anton,=20 >=20 > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > >=20 > > > ###### > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > This > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > Implementors > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > documentation. > > > ###### > > >=20 > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > 65,000=20 > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We=20 > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. >=20 > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me >=20 > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low > to=20 > > > me. > > >=20 > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all=20 > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > >=20 > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > >=20 > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > message=20 > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync >=20 > > > this. I can go up with my number. > >=20 > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > conclusions=20 > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we=20 > > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as > it=20 > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum >=20 > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. >=20 > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list archive. > Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like > there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong > understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. >=20 > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors to > support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size > should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare initiative > tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at > least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > >=20 > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation=20 > > must be supported by transport implementors. >=20 > This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K > (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the > additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for the > acutal message. >=20 > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST be > supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon > become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very > concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes > sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold > enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have > some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a > standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not > counting meta data in structured ids....). >=20 > > However, a full > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > to > > 16777216 bytes. =20 > >=20 > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a=20 > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different=20 > > limit. >=20 > That's already there ;) >=20 > >=20 > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to=20 > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so > we=20 > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support=20 > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available=20 > > memory will be an issue. > >=20 > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > we=20 > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum >=20 > > supported message size? > >=20 > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to=20 > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > >=20 > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by >=20 > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that >=20 > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport >=20 > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced=20 > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still=20 > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > >=20 > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed >=20 > > for good. > >=20 > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > >=20 > > > ##### > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > allowed. > > > ##### > > >=20 > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate >=20 > > > if you could elaborate a little. > >=20 > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which=20 > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it=20 > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket=20 > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated >=20 > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 > >=20 > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports >=20 > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem=20 > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific=20 > > anyway. What do you think? >=20 > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) > Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might > just have been my personal problem ;) >=20 > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 10:47:06 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03114 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4585C75C; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371315C76C for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF98C9C761 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:00:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09541-05 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:59:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAA79C755 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:59:39 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:48:41 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE7F@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: -protocol: TIMESTAMP format Thread-Index: AcSXRUNd6C08TqtFQ1KRLDEJ/haK8w== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:47:06 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: TIMESTAMP format X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton has the following thought about the TIMESTAMP: ### I thought we also discussed the devices that may have no knowledge of absolute time, but have a clock. For these devices, people typically put the number of seconds or msec of uptime in the timestamp. At least Cisco does it for pretty much all of its devices. At least it provides for some ordering of messages. So, are we proposing that these devices put the same constant as defined here in all messages until they learn the absolute time? We could add a structured element "uptime" to structured tag "time", but I am not sure if this is good. Harder to sort messages. We need to provide an ability for the device to specify uptime one way or the other for this scenario.=20 ### This is not yet covered in -protocol. Should we cover it? Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 11:13:09 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05255 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1D85C723; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:13:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6B45C732 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2004 08:11:34 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i8AF8J9N020556; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALL55132; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:08:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: describing relays Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:08:20 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c49748$025411c0$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FE64@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:13:09 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some context would help... > #### > Not sure about this. I would thing relay is also a "syslog > server". Better omit. We don't need to mention legacy > terminology if it is confusing. > #### My comment was on the last bullet point in this paragraph: The following definitions will be used in this document: o An application that can generate a message will be called a "sender". o An application that can receive a message will be called a "receiver". o An application that can receive the message and forward it to another machine will be called a "relay". o An application that receives the message and does not relay it to any other receivers will be called a "collector". This has been commonly known as a "syslog server". I said that if you call collector a "syslog server", then you should also mention it about relay. I suggested that we don't need the legacy term "syslog server". Instead you defined the term "syslog receiver". This comment was not about removing notion of relay! Rainer, when viewing comments do: View/Comments/Show List. This will show better markers for which specific spot in the text the comment applies. Anton. > > I think the description of a relay as a separate entitiy is > not legacy, but vital. If we look at RFC 3195/COOKED, there > are definitely different rules for relays than for normal > collectors. I think relays have very special operations and > as such I think we should describe this entity. > > Comments? > > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec > _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 11:25:40 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06062 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84A35C7C6; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:25:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA4C5C786 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djyxpy41 (h00104b8ce2a3.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.128.104.220]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004091015200901600hlmohe>; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:20:09 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)'" , "'Rainer Gerhards'" , "'Anton Okmianski'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:20:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <45A5295FFA1CBE4D9BF44E8534D2686C7D154B@MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcSU7GRHF0bG+NhsS2Gpw/+gvGachACH71rgAAo3QwAAAM2lUAABMr+wAAGNE3A= Message-Id: <20040910152011.CBA4C5C786@willers.employees.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:25:40 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietfdbh@comcast.net List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I recommend that we set three pairs of recommendations, based on the use cases: Use Case #1 - Troubleshooting: A small UDP-based message is important for device and network **troubleshooting** in a reliability-challenged network, such as one under DDOS or physical combat situations, where a fragmented message may have greater difficulty getting delivered, and TCP has difficulty establishing sessions. 1a) receiver - Recommend the 480 size as the minimum recommended size for carrying rather small messages for this use case. 1b) sender - We should specify what the resulting payload size is after subtracting the syslog overhead, and recommend that message generators not exceed that length for messages reporting device failures or other conditions expected in a reliability-challenged network. Use Case #2 - Device/network status reporting: Status reporting in a normally-operating network will typically benefit from larger message sizes. I think it reasonable to think that a 1k message is large enough to contain "hints" about the nature of a problem to help an operator understand what steps are needed to resolve the problem. 2a) reciever - RECOMMEND 1k be supported as a minimum message size to make it possible to send more information in messages, to provide more useful information to the reciever. 2b) sender - RECOMMEND messages not exceed 1k for most situations. Message generators should be encouraged to avoid bloat in their messages. Use case #3 - application usage [soap] I have difficulty understanding why messages or 32k and 64k are really necessary - it strikes me that a short message or an SNMP trap could contain a URL to a web page or a file that contains information of that size to be communicated. Just because syslog CAN be used to transmit large messages doesn't mean it SHOULD be used for messages of that size. Expecting all vendors to implement syslog buffers of that size, when other means are available for huge messages, seems like a bad use of the syslog protocol. [end soap] I expect the number of use cases that demand this size log message will be limited, but there are obviously people who do want messages this size, so we should address the recommendations: 3a) reciever - I suggest we recommend 16k as the recommended minimum size and 64k as the recommended minimum-maximum size, i.e recommend at least 64k buffers. 16k is large enough to hold a fair amount of info, and 64k might be a limit run into in a compiler or malloc() implementation. Being able to support messages of at least 64k would be a good thing, for those implementations that want to support such use cases. 3b) sender - many implementations will not be able to receive greater than 64k messages, so senders should not send more than 64k. I recommend that either the message contain a max-message size indicator in the message (e.g. see SNMNPv3), or that the syslog MIB contain an object that specifies the maxiumum size supported by a receiver, so a sender can know not to send larger messages. David Harrington dbharrington@comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare) [mailto:John.Moehrke@med.ge.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:57 AM To: Rainer Gerhards; ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt I truly don't understand why syslog cares about max-size as defined in IP. It can say: "Due to a protocol binding to udp, big messages may get fragmented. This fragmentation increases the risk of the message not getting delivered." The only reason for syslog to use any SHOULD/MUST language on this subject is to assure a syslog user that a 'syslog' implementation will be able to create messages with a payload of n size, and that if this message gets through the gauntlet that is udp/ip, it will be consumed without buffer size rejects. Going over UDP, you can't give any form of assurance that it will be delivered. This lack of assurance is simply made worse if the udp packet is big. On the max-size issue... What IHE is concerned with is profiling a use-case that is forbidden by standards or not implementable given current systems. Thus we are more interested in the syslog-max-size, than the assurance issue. If we truly can't expect a syslog implementation (client and server) to handle a message bigger than 480 octets; then we must abandon the use of udp-syslog. We have no choice but to go with Reliable syslog. We will have to go to Reliable-syslog, not for the reliability aspect, but because we know our payload won't be rejected simply because it is big. In our design of the schema we understood that a message might not get there if we are bound to udp-syslog. We understood that the larger the message the bigger this un-reliability is. OSI layers are GOOD... John -----Original Message----- From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer Gerhards Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:19 AM To: ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Hi List, I think there is a lot of wisdom and obviously a lot of experience in what David says. So even though I have strong concerns that a guaranteed size of just 480 octets is not wise, I would accept it if nobody else objects violently. Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:06 PM > To: Rainer Gerhards; 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > > Hi, > > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute requirement of > the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't > support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size > selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number that could > be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to > create a MUST. > > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but > also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send > larger messages. You could also identify some expected use cases, such > as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect > support for larger sizes. > > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then > implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size. > The market can decide whether those implementations that only support > 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free > 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay > for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will probably > be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't be the > author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own > preferences and their company's use cases. > > > Dbh > > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > > Anton, > > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > > > > > ###### > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > This > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > Implementors > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > documentation. > > > ###### > > > > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > 65,000 > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. > > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me > > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low > to > > > me. > > > > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > > > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > > > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > message > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync > > > > this. I can go up with my number. > > > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > conclusions > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as > it > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum > > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. > > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list archive. > Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like > there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong > understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. > > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors to > support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size > should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare initiative > tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at > least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > > > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation > > must be supported by transport implementors. > > This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K > (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the > additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for the > acutal message. > > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST be > supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon > become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very > concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes > sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold > enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have > some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a > standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not > counting meta data in structured ids....). > > > However, a full > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > to > > 16777216 bytes. > > > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different > > limit. > > That's already there ;) > > > > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so > we > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available > > memory will be an issue. > > > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > we > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum > > > supported message size? > > > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > > > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by > > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that > > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport > > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > > > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed > > > for good. > > > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > > > > > ##### > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > allowed. > > > ##### > > > > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate > > > > if you could elaborate a little. > > > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated > > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > same MessageId and source port among other things. > > > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports > > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific > > anyway. What do you think? > > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) > Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might > just have been my personal problem ;) > > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec > > > _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 14:06:00 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17791 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100D25C7A5; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32D25C792 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2004 09:57:31 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i8AGuvxk006499; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALL64633; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: "'Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)'" , "'Rainer Gerhards'" , , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:56:56 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c49757$2e8a48e0$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <45A5295FFA1CBE4D9BF44E8534D2686C7D154B@MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Importance: Normal X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:05:59 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John and all: First of all, thanks for feeding in the requirements of your project. I think all of three of them (32k message size, UTF-8 and control characters) are met by the current drafts. The only issue you raise is fragmentation.=20 I dedicate Appendix A in transport-udp draft to "Rational For Transport Message Size Restrictions", which also explains the reason for fragmentation. I will try not to repeat everything here, but just recap and offer one resolution for your concern. =20 I think that syslog-protocol should have a fairly large message limit. Where there is a requirement for 32k, we can surely anticipate 128k in a few years. We could argue on the merits of such large messages and use of UDP to transmit them, but really it is up to application developers and administrators to make the call on message appropriate message size and transport. The next question is how does transport-udp support messages of this size. =20 IP/UDP, by definition, does not support datagrams greater than 64k. And with UDP, obviously, there is no TCP segmentation to help in partitioning larger messages. So, IP fragmentation won't help us if we were to deal with messages greater than 64k, anyway. This is the reason why protocols such as TFTP or TCP do they own partitioning of messages.=20 If we assume that 64k max message size is enough (a big if given people's sentiments on this list in the past), then the next question is whether or not we can trust the IP layer to fragment it using Path MTU discovery (or static MTU configuration) or not. The research I quoted in the aforementioned appendix shows that many UDP stack implementations do not support full UDP packet size at all. Plus, Path MTU discovery is often not available and you simply risk losing packets with size greater than MTU on a lot of networks. This is why established protocols such as DHCP, DNS, TFTP and RIP all limit UDP packet size to somewhere in the area of 480-512 bytes.=20 My opinion is that for huge messages TCP is much better suited. But if somebody does indeed want to do it with UDP, they will have to use an implementation which supports fragmentation. The transport-udp draft defines a standard mechanism for sending pretty much any size message over UDP. Either way, an application developer will be shielded from doing fragmentation and re-assembly if he/she uses an appropriate syslog library. =20 What I sense people don't like is that with current transport-udp draft they have to implement fragmentation in syslog library for messages over ~480 bytes (in IPv4). This may not be needed for them if they know that their network and all hosts support larger UDP packets and that they don't send messages over certain size. Maybe we should consider removing the restriction on packet size where fragmentation kicks in and make it a recommendation. This way somebody could send messages of up to ~64k without fragmentation using transport-udp draft if they know what they are doing. Would this address your issue? What do others think? Thanks, Anton.=20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare) [mailto:John.Moehrke@med.ge.com] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:57 AM > To: Rainer Gerhards; ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski;=20 > syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 >=20 > I truly don't understand why syslog cares about max-size as=20 > defined in IP. It can say: "Due to a protocol binding to udp,=20 > big messages may get fragmented. This fragmentation=20 > increases the risk of the message not getting delivered." The=20 > only reason for syslog to use any SHOULD/MUST language on=20 > this subject is to assure a syslog user that a 'syslog'=20 > implementation will be able to create messages with a payload=20 > of n size, and that if this message gets through the gauntlet=20 > that is udp/ip, it will be consumed without buffer size=20 > rejects. Going over UDP, you can't give any form of assurance=20 > that it will be delivered. This lack of assurance is simply=20 > made worse if the udp packet is big. >=20 > On the max-size issue... What IHE is concerned with is=20 > profiling a use-case that is forbidden by standards or not=20 > implementable given current systems. Thus we are more=20 > interested in the syslog-max-size, than the assurance issue. =20 > If we truly can't expect a syslog implementation (client and=20 > server) to handle a message bigger than 480 octets; then we=20 > must abandon the use of udp-syslog. We have no choice but to=20 > go with Reliable syslog. We will have to go to=20 > Reliable-syslog, not for the reliability aspect, but because=20 > we know our payload won't be rejected simply because it is=20 > big. In our design of the schema we understood that a message=20 > might not get there if we are bound to udp-syslog. We=20 > understood that the larger the message the bigger this=20 > un-reliability is. >=20 > OSI layers are GOOD... >=20 > John >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Rainer Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:19 AM > To: ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Hi List, >=20 > I think there is a lot of wisdom and obviously a lot of=20 > experience in what David says. So even though I have strong=20 > concerns that a guaranteed size of just 480 octets is not=20 > wise, I would accept it if nobody else objects violently. >=20 > Rainer >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:06 PM > > To: Rainer Gerhards; 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute=20 > requirement of=20 > > the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't=20 > > support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size=20 > > selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number=20 > that could=20 > > be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to=20 > > create a MUST. > >=20 > > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but=20 > > also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send > > larger messages. You could also identify some expected use=20 > cases, such=20 > > as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect=20 > > support for larger sizes. > >=20 > > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then > > implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size.=20 > > The market can decide whether those implementations that=20 > only support=20 > > 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free=20 > > 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay > > for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will=20 > probably=20 > > be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It=20 > shouldn't be the=20 > > author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own=20 > > preferences and their company's use cases. > >=20 > >=20 > > Dbh > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer=20 > > Gerhards > > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > >=20 > > Anton, > >=20 > > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > > >=20 > > > > ###### > > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > > This > > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > > Implementors > > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > > documentation. > > > > ###### > > > >=20 > > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > > 65,000 > > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We > > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the=20 > message size. > >=20 > > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we=20 > must, let me > >=20 > > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks=20 > far too low > > to > > > > me. > > > >=20 > > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all > > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > > >=20 > > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > > >=20 > > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > > message > > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make=20 > sense to sync > >=20 > > > > this. I can go up with my number. > > >=20 > > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > > conclusions > > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > > > can't force transport implementors into supporting=20 > fragmentation as > > it > > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting=20 > the maximum > >=20 > > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. > >=20 > > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list=20 > archive.=20 > > Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like > > there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong=20 > > understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. > >=20 > > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force=20 > implementors to=20 > > support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size=20 > > should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare=20 > initiative=20 > > tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at=20 > > least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > > >=20 > > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation > > > must be supported by transport implementors. > >=20 > > This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K > > (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the=20 > > additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much=20 > left for the=20 > > acutal message. > >=20 > > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size=20 > that MUST be=20 > > supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon=20 > > become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very=20 > > concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes=20 > > sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold=20 > > enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have > > some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for=20 > > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a > > standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not=20 > > counting meta data in structured ids....). > >=20 > > > However, a full > > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > > to > > > 16777216 bytes. =20 > > >=20 > > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it=20 > supports a > > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a=20 > different=20 > > > limit. > >=20 > > That's already there ;) > >=20 > > >=20 > > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is=20 > not good, so > > we > > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support > > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available=20 > > > memory will be an issue. > > >=20 > > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > > we > > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST=20 > document maximum > >=20 > > > supported message size? > > >=20 > > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > > >=20 > > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the=20 > -protocol by > >=20 > > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people=20 > commented that > >=20 > > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities=20 > of transport > >=20 > > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still=20 > > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > > >=20 > > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and=20 > put it bed > >=20 > > > for good. > > >=20 > > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > > >=20 > > > > ##### > > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > > allowed. > > > > ##### > > > >=20 > > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd=20 > appreciate > >=20 > > > > if you could elaborate a little. > > >=20 > > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which > > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it=20 > > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of=20 > the socket=20 > > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And=20 > this is stated > >=20 > > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 > > >=20 > > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple=20 > different ports > >=20 > > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have=20 > no problem > > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific=20 > > > anyway. What do you think? > >=20 > > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) > > Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but=20 > this might=20 > > just have been my personal problem ;) > >=20 > > Rainer > > _______________________________________________ > > Syslog-sec mailing list > > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org=20 > > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org=20 > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 10 15:02:22 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21898 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAE95C760; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DB95C774 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2004 11:29:40 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i8AILMwW007783; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALL73600; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: , "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:21:21 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c49762$f9520df0$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200409101308.i8AD7dmU000558@sj-inbound-1.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Importance: Normal X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:02:22 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David and all: > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute=20 > requirement of the specification, i.e. the specification=20 > won't work if you don't support this. MUST should NOT be used=20 > to set some arbitrary size selected by the authors as looking=20 > like a nice round number that could be useful in many=20 > circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to create a MUST. >=20 > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum=20 > size, but also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it=20 > possible to send larger messages.=20 Yes, the ~507 bytes minimum size support requirement in transport-udp is semi-arbitrary. It is the maximum size we think can be easily supported (ie without fragmentation). You are asking why can it be say 300 bytes if I have a small device? But I am concerned with interoperability issues if there is no ANY minimum supported size? Don't we need at least basic minimum baseline? Maybe in the spirit of "be strict in what you send and liberal in what you accept", some minimum supported size requirement should only be for the receiver? The sending library can have whatever size support it wants. This way we can support small devices sending small messages.=20 Thanks, Anton.=20 > You could also identify=20 > some expected use cases, such as the IHE case to demonstrate=20 > that potential users might expect support for larger sizes. > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum,=20 > then implementors will only implement that size, not a more=20 > useful size. The market can decide whether those=20 > implementations that only support 480 will actually be used=20 > widely. I suspect only free 480-implementations would get=20 > much usage, and you get what you pay for. Better=20 > implementations, both free and commercial, will probably be=20 > preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't=20 > be the author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based=20 > on their own preferences and their company's use cases. >=20 >=20 > Dbh >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of=20 > Rainer Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Anton,=20 >=20 > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > >=20 > > > ###### > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > This > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > Implementors > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > documentation. > > > ###### > > >=20 > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > 65,000=20 > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message size. >=20 > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let me >=20 > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too low > to=20 > > > me. > > >=20 > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > >=20 > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > >=20 > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > message=20 > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to sync >=20 > > > this. I can go up with my number. > >=20 > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > conclusions=20 > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation as > it=20 > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the maximum >=20 > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. >=20 > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list=20 > archive. Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So=20 > it looks like there were some private conversations or we=20 > both had a wrong understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's=20 > try to finalize it now. >=20 > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force=20 > implementors to support very large messages. Thus, the=20 > minimum-to-be-supported size should be just 64K. Please=20 > remember that the IHE healthcare initiative tries to use=20 > syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at least=20 > 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > >=20 > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation > > must be supported by transport implementors. >=20 > This means we are going down with the actual message limit=20 > from 1K (which already was very small) to just 480 octets.=20 > Given the additional overhead we have introduced, there is=20 > not much left for the acutal message. >=20 > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size=20 > that MUST be supported. But I think if we face reality, that=20 > minimum will soon become the maximum supported by most=20 > implementations. I am very concerend that such a short=20 > guaranteed message size really makes sense... If we really=20 > take that route, we should eventually be bold enough to go=20 > back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have some=20 > reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for=20 > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance=20 > for a standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual=20 > message (not counting meta data in structured ids....). >=20 > > However, a full > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > to > > 16777216 bytes. =20 > >=20 > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports a > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different > > limit. >=20 > That's already there ;) >=20 > >=20 > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, so > we=20 > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available=20 > > memory will be an issue. > >=20 > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > we=20 > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document maximum >=20 > > supported message size? > >=20 > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > >=20 > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol by >=20 > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented that >=20 > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of transport >=20 > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still=20 > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > >=20 > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it bed >=20 > > for good. > >=20 > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > >=20 > > > ##### > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > allowed. > > > ##### > > >=20 > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd appreciate >=20 > > > if you could elaborate a little. > >=20 > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it=20 > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the socket=20 > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is stated >=20 > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 > >=20 > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different ports >=20 > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no problem > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific=20 > > anyway. What do you think? >=20 > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were=20 > saying ;) Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose=20 > - but this might just have been my personal problem ;) >=20 > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org=20 > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Sat Sep 11 00:08:28 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03849 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054C65C72F; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456095C725 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (64.102.124.13) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2004 16:59:23 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i8AKjDH7021687; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aokmiansw2k ([161.44.64.231]) by flask.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id ALL86660; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:45:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Anton Okmianski" To: , "'Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)'" , "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:45:12 -0400 Message-ID: <002901c49777$11faad80$e7402ca1@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200409101520.i8AFJ4fR021073@sj-inbound-2.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Importance: Normal X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:08:28 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David: Which draft is the target of your recommendations? Syslog-protocol or transport-udp? What restrictions/recommendations do you think each should have? I am not sure I see a clear distinction between troubleshooting and device/network status messages to warrant two different levels of message size recommendations. The uses cases overlap. =20 Could you explain what is the point of providing max-message size in the syslog message? What would the server do if it gets it from the client? =20 I can understand the motivation for ability to learn max supported message size of the receiver through SNMP. It could be useful, but relays complicate things. The sender will still know nothing about end-to-end capabilities of delivery of messages of certain size (well, it does not even know the intended final receiver). If we use this information on a next-hop basis, then we have to assume relay can transform messages the same way the original sender can. This is something we wanted to avoid to support security signatures. =20 Thanks, Anton.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 11:20 AM > To: 'Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)'; 'Rainer Gerhards';=20 > 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I recommend that we set three pairs of recommendations, based=20 > on the use cases: >=20 > Use Case #1 - Troubleshooting:=20 >=20 > A small UDP-based message is important for device and network > **troubleshooting** in a reliability-challenged network, such=20 > as one under DDOS or physical combat situations, where a=20 > fragmented message may have greater difficulty getting=20 > delivered, and TCP has difficulty establishing sessions.=20 >=20 > 1a) receiver - Recommend the 480 size as the minimum=20 > recommended size for carrying rather small messages for this=20 > use case.=20 >=20 > 1b) sender - We should specify what the resulting payload=20 > size is after subtracting the syslog overhead, and recommend=20 > that message generators not exceed that length for messages=20 > reporting device failures or other conditions expected in a=20 > reliability-challenged network. >=20 > Use Case #2 - Device/network status reporting: >=20 > Status reporting in a normally-operating network will=20 > typically benefit from larger message sizes. I think it=20 > reasonable to think that a 1k message is large enough to=20 > contain "hints" about the nature of a problem to help an=20 > operator understand what steps are needed to resolve the problem. > =20 > 2a) reciever - RECOMMEND 1k be supported as a minimum message=20 > size to make it possible to send more information in=20 > messages, to provide more useful information to the reciever.=20 >=20 > 2b) sender - RECOMMEND messages not exceed 1k for most=20 > situations. Message generators should be encouraged to avoid=20 > bloat in their messages. >=20 > Use case #3 - application usage >=20 > [soap] > I have difficulty understanding why messages or 32k and 64k=20 > are really necessary - it strikes me that a short message or=20 > an SNMP trap could contain a URL to a web page or a file that=20 > contains information of that size to be communicated. Just=20 > because syslog CAN be used to transmit large messages doesn't=20 > mean it SHOULD be used for messages of that size. Expecting=20 > all vendors to implement syslog buffers of that size, when=20 > other means are available for huge messages, seems like a bad=20 > use of the syslog protocol. [end soap] >=20 > I expect the number of use cases that demand this size log=20 > message will be limited, but there are obviously people who=20 > do want messages this size, so we should address the recommendations: >=20 > 3a) reciever - I suggest we recommend 16k as the recommended=20 > minimum size and 64k as the recommended minimum-maximum size,=20 > i.e recommend at least 64k buffers. 16k is large enough to=20 > hold a fair amount of info, and 64k might be a limit run into=20 > in a compiler or malloc() implementation. Being able to=20 > support messages of at least 64k would be a good thing, for=20 > those implementations that want to support such use cases. >=20 > 3b) sender - many implementations will not be able to receive=20 > greater than 64k messages, so senders should not send more than 64k. >=20 > I recommend that either the message contain a max-message=20 > size indicator in the message (e.g. see SNMNPv3), or that the=20 > syslog MIB contain an object that specifies the maxiumum size=20 > supported by a receiver, so a sender can know not to send =20 > larger messages. >=20 > David Harrington > dbharrington@comcast.net >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare) [mailto:John.Moehrke@med.ge.com] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:57 AM > To: Rainer Gerhards; ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski;=20 > syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > I truly don't understand why syslog cares about max-size as=20 > defined in IP. It can say: "Due to a protocol binding to udp,=20 > big messages may get fragmented. This fragmentation=20 > increases the risk of the message not getting delivered." The=20 > only reason for syslog to use any SHOULD/MUST language on=20 > this subject is to assure a syslog user that a 'syslog'=20 > implementation will be able to create messages with a payload=20 > of n size, and that if this message gets through the gauntlet=20 > that is udp/ip, it will be consumed without buffer size=20 > rejects. Going over UDP, you can't give any form of assurance=20 > that it will be delivered. This lack of assurance is simply=20 > made worse if the udp packet is big. >=20 > On the max-size issue... What IHE is concerned with is=20 > profiling a use-case that is forbidden by standards or not=20 > implementable given current systems. Thus we are more=20 > interested in the syslog-max-size, than the assurance issue. =20 > If we truly can't expect a syslog implementation (client and=20 > server) to handle a message bigger than 480 octets; then we=20 > must abandon the use of udp-syslog. We have no choice but to=20 > go with Reliable syslog. We will have to go to=20 > Reliable-syslog, not for the reliability aspect, but because=20 > we know our payload won't be rejected simply because it is=20 > big. In our design of the schema we understood that a message=20 > might not get there if we are bound to udp-syslog. We=20 > understood that the larger the message the bigger this=20 > un-reliability is. >=20 > OSI layers are GOOD... >=20 > John >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org] On Behalf=20 > Of Rainer Gerhards > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:19 AM > To: ietfdbh@comcast.net; Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt >=20 > Hi List, >=20 > I think there is a lot of wisdom and obviously a lot of=20 > experience in what David says. So even though I have strong=20 > concerns that a guaranteed size of just 480 octets is not=20 > wise, I would accept it if nobody else objects violently. >=20 > Rainer >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:06 PM > > To: Rainer Gerhards; 'Anton Okmianski'; syslog-sec@employees.org > > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D=20 > > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > Please keep in mind that MUST is used for an absolute requirement of >=20 > > the specification, i.e. the specification won't work if you don't > > support this. MUST should NOT be used to set some arbitrary size=20 > > selected by the authors as looking like a nice round number that > could=20 > > be useful in many circumstances. It sounds like you are trying to > > create a MUST. > >=20 > > I recommend that you set the 480 as a RECOMMENDED minimum size, but > > also RECOMMEND 16k or 64k be supported to make it possible to send > > larger messages. You could also identify some expected use cases, > such=20 > > as the IHE case to demonstrate that potential users might expect > > support for larger sizes. > >=20 > > You express a concern that if 480 is the recommended minimum, then > > implementors will only implement that size, not a more useful size. > > The market can decide whether those implementations that only > support=20 > > 480 will actually be used widely. I suspect only free > > 480-implementations would get much usage, and you get what you pay > > for. Better implementations, both free and commercial, will probably >=20 > > be preferred by operators, and therefore vendors. It shouldn't be > the=20 > > author's decision what sizes MUST be supported based on their own > > preferences and their company's use cases. > >=20 > >=20 > > Dbh > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > > Gerhards > > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:10 AM > > To: Anton Okmianski; syslog-sec@employees.org > > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D > > ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt > >=20 > > Anton, > >=20 > > > > - In 3.4, the draft says: > > > >=20 > > > > ###### > > > > All implementations MUST support sending and receiving syslog > > > > messages up to and including the size which does not require > > > > fragmentation (507 bytes for IPv4 and 1191 bytes for IPv6). > > This > > > > size excludes the overhead of the syslog transport and UDP/IP > > > > headers. Support for larger messages is encouraged. > > > Implementors > > > > SHOULD clearly state the maximum supported message size in > > > > documentation. > > > > ###### > > > >=20 > > > > Actually, all implementations MUST support a message size of > > 65,000 > > > > bytes, because this is the required minimum in -protocol 4.1. We >=20 > > > > agreed on this minimum after long discussions on the message > size. > >=20 > > > > I'd actually prefer not to re-iterate this. But if we must, let > me > >=20 > > > > say that a guaranteed message size of 507 bytes looks far too > low > > to > > > > me. > > > >=20 > > > > Please note that the -protcol requirement meant that all > > > > implementations MUST support fragmentation. > > > >=20 > > > > Sorry I didn't spot this in the -01 version... > > > >=20 > > > > I've also noticed that in -protocol, I have limited that max > > message > > > > size to 16,000,000 bytes in -protocol. It might make sense to > sync > >=20 > > > > this. I can go up with my number. > > >=20 > > > Indeed we discussed this at length, but my recollection of > > conclusions > > > was different. :) Let's revisit. We decided (I thought) that we > > > can't force transport implementors into supporting fragmentation > as > > it > > > was too complicated. Plus, we can't them into supporting the > maximum > >=20 > > > message size as the common denominator may be too small. > >=20 > > I've tried to find something definitive in the mailing list=20 > archive.=20 > > Actually, I couldn't come up with such a thing... So it looks like > > there were some private conversations or we both had a wrong=20 > > understanding of concensus. Anyhow, let's try to finalize it now. > >=20 > > I thought that the concensus was that we can not force implementors > to=20 > > support very large messages. Thus, the minimum-to-be-supported size > > should be just 64K. Please remember that the IHE healthcare > initiative=20 > > tries to use syslog for auditing and has a size requirement of at > > least 32K. So there is some industry need for larger size messages. > > >=20 > > > Hence, only the size that can be transported without fragmentation >=20 > > > must be supported by transport implementors. > >=20 > > This means we are going down with the actual message limit from 1K > > (which already was very small) to just 480 octets. Given the=20 > > additional overhead we have introduced, there is not much left for > the=20 > > acutal message. > >=20 > > Of course, you can argue that it is just the minimum size that MUST > be=20 > > supported. But I think if we face reality, that minimum will soon > > become the maximum supported by most implementations. I am very=20 > > concerend that such a short guaranteed message size really makes=20 > > sense... If we really take that route, we should eventually be bold=20 > > enough to go back to 1K without fragmentation, even though we have > > some reliability concerns. At least that seems to have worked for=20 > > several years now. I don't think we will get much acceptance for a > > standard that leaves around 400 bytes for the actual message (not=20 > > counting meta data in structured ids....). > >=20 > > > However, a full > > > transport implementation will support fragmentation and size of up > > to > > > 16777216 bytes. =20 > > >=20 > > > I think what we need is a statement in -protocol that it supports > a=20 > > > message size up to 16777216, but transports MAY impose a different >=20 > > > limit. > >=20 > > That's already there ;) > >=20 > > >=20 > > > It was mentioned that some devices will physically not be able to > > > handle large messages, where "large" can be quite a small number. > > > Restricting all messages to this common denominator is not good, > so > > we > > > have a multi-tier support system. People are not likely to support >=20 > > > streaming of message parts in their implementations, so available > > > memory will be an issue. > > >=20 > > > Administrators will choose the appropriate implementations. Should > > we > > > add a statement that transport implementations MUST document > maximum > >=20 > > > supported message size? > > >=20 > > > I know it is less than optimal, but requiring all transports to > > > support some huge size is not a good idea either IMO. > > >=20 > > > You also had an idea for doing fragmentation within the -protocol > by > >=20 > > > upper layer. I originally liked it. But later people commented > that > >=20 > > > this was improper layering and shifted responsibilities of > transport > >=20 > > > layer up the stack. I agree with this. It would have introduced > > > potential fragmentation on several layers and we would have still=20 > > > forced the higher layer to deal with UDP sizing constraints. > > >=20 > > > I agree this issue deserves discussion. Let's have it and put it > bed > >=20 > > > for good. > > >=20 > > > > I do not fully understand what you mean in 4.2 by: > > > >=20 > > > > ##### > > > > No concurrent port reuse on the same host is > > > > allowed. > > > > ##### > > > >=20 > > > > It's probably just my English, but I do not get it. I'd > appreciate > >=20 > > > > if you could elaborate a little. > > >=20 > > > What this refers to is the use of SO_REUSEPORT socket option which >=20 > > > allows multiple sockets to be bound to the same port. I guess it > > > would not be a problem if the two different consumers of the > socket=20 > > > (maybe threads) use different MessageId numbers. And this is > stated > >=20 > > > as requirement elsewhere: all message parts must be send using the > > > same MessageId and source port among other things. =20 > > >=20 > > > Following your suggestion, we already allow multiple different > ports > >=20 > > > to be used concurrent within a single process, so I have no > problem=20 > > > with removing this restriction. It is too implementation-specific > > > anyway. What do you think? > >=20 > > I agree. I simply did not fully understand what you were saying ;) > > Eventually the sentence could be a bit more verbose - but this might >=20 > > just have been my personal problem ;) > >=20 > > Rainer > > _______________________________________________ > > Syslog-sec mailing list > > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org=20 > > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org=20 > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Sat Sep 11 22:47:47 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01422 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E385C733; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ext-nj2gw-6.online-age.net (ext-nj2gw-6.online-age.net [64.14.56.42]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8105F5C731 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-nj2gw-6.online-age.net (int-nj2gw-6 [3.159.236.70]) by ext-nj2gw-6.online-age.net (8.12.11/8.12.11/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id i8C2dUqB006117 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:39:31 -0400 Received: from cinmlef04.e2k.ad.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-nj2gw-6.online-age.net (8.12.9/8.12.8/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id i8C2eSvg010311 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com ([3.159.176.54]) by cinmlef04.e2k.ad.ge.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:40:10 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6562.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:40:54 -0500 Message-ID: <45A5295FFA1CBE4D9BF44E8534D2686C86D66B@MKEMLVEM07.e2k.ad.ge.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcSXV12VKbvCx+7rSyqzihYhvqSyygBGPyAw From: "Moehrke, John (GE Healthcare)" To: "Anton Okmianski" , "Rainer Gerhards" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2004 02:40:11.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[D2F451D0:01C49871] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:47:42 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anton, Yes, I am all for removing the restriction and at most making it a recommendation. I really think that the client side is simply a choice of tool (kind of), the standard should place no rules here. I do want to be assured that a receiver can handle my message, and thus I would understand a receiver side recommendation.=20 I know healthcare (IHE) has a large footprint schema, but I think that 32K is comfortable. Our schema may seem excessive but we are including who, what, where, when and why in detail. We are indeed pointing at many objects indirectly, but of course healthcare is very committed to Globally Unique Identifiers. John _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 15 15:07:50 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00006 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2B65C7A8; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572CD5C72D for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E479C757 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:51:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17004-05 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CB49C755 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:39:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FED8@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: -protocol: enterpriseID in origin SD-ID Thread-Index: AcSbQouoWNXr0kerTYGEiB3Jr0dWMg== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:07:48 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] -protocol: enterpriseID in origin SD-ID X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list, the "origin" SD-ID has a parameter named "enterpriseID". This is taken from SNMP. I asked David B Harrington for some advise on how to refer to it. He also brought up a good question. Here is a quote from his response: #### Are only IANA-assigned enterprise-ids from the iso.org.dod.intertnet.private.enterprise branch allowed? If so, that should be clearly identified. You should understand that THE MIB is an international multi-organizational repository for assignments. Iso owns the root, and has delegated authority for a subtree to dod (1.3.6) which delegated authority for a subtree (1.3.6.1 - internet) to IANA, the Internet Assigned Number Authority, which allocated a subtree for private enterprises (1.3.6.1.4.1). Enterprise-IDs are defined within the iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprise branch of THE MIB. Other organizations, such as IEEE, also have subtrees within THE MIB for which they have assignment authority, and they could also define enterprise-IDs if they wanted to.=20 So syslog needs to make a decision about whether only IANA-assigned enterprise-IDs are allowed (in which case only the seventh sub-oid is needed in the message) or any enterprise-id from THE MIB is allowed (in which case you'll need the whole OID to also identify the assigning authority).=20 #### I expect that syslog travels via IP, only. So just using IANA-assigend enterpriseIDs sounds natural to me. It also has the advantage of keeping things small. This is especially important as we have some thight space limitations in the case of UDP transport. I will restrict it to just this set of enterpriseIDs if nobody offers a good argument to support the full OID. Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Mon Sep 20 10:32:32 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07524 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1723A5C784; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BDC5C7AB for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492FE9C763 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:59:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23356-07 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:58:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B7F9C755 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:58:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:46:48 +0200 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FF54@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: Sturctured Data & Unicode Thread-Index: AcSfGEaUnzWapJvVSXi7PLIc8lpT5g== From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:32:27 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list, STRUCTURED-DATA is currently specified as All-Unicode. STRUCTURED-DATA consists of structured data elements. Each of them consists of a name and name-value pairs. After going through some scenarios, I think we do NOT need to support full Unicode in the name tags. So I propose we allow Unicode only in the values and limit the name tags to US-ASCII. If nobody objects, I will edit the draft in this way. Thanks, Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Mon Sep 20 11:36:04 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13196 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095C55C7A1; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BDB5C76F for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djyxpy41 (h00104b8ce2a3.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.128.104.220]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004092015343901100iesg0e>; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:34:39 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:34:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcSfGEaUnzWapJvVSXi7PLIc8lpT5gADD67g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FF54@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Message-Id: <20040920153440.F2BDB5C76F@willers.employees.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:36:00 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietfdbh@comcast.net List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, I disagree with this approach. What I hear you saying is, we will allow, say, a Japanese operator to express **values** in a Japanese langauge, but they need to learn a US-ASCII based language to read the **name** for the data point. This strikes me as being rather biased in favor of people that use languages that are US-ASCII based. It would be easier for that Japanese operator to be able to design their name-value pairs fully in Japanese, both name and value. I also don't see why such a restriction is necessary. There is no extra cost borne by US-ASCII language based users for allowing a Unicode format, since US-ASCII is a subset of Unicode and no extra bits on the wire are required for their US-ASCII name-value pairs when written in Unicode format. If you want to ensure that IETF-STANDARD name-value pairs are understandable to the largest community, then requiring that IETF standards-track names be specified in US-ASCII, that would make some sense, but I think it probably should go further and require that the names be in English, just as it is a requirement that Internet-Drafts and RFCs be written in English. But this should NOT mean that the name field, if it can also contain names that are not standards-track, should be restricted to support only US-ASCII format. I am also a bit concerned that requiring names to only support US-ASCII will lead implementors to only support US-ASCII for the values as well, and that would be unfair to a large, and growing, percentage of Internet users. So I tend to disagree with the suggestion to limit the name to US-ASCII. David Harrington dbharrington@comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer Gerhards Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:47 AM To: syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode Hi list, STRUCTURED-DATA is currently specified as All-Unicode. STRUCTURED-DATA consists of structured data elements. Each of them consists of a name and name-value pairs. After going through some scenarios, I think we do NOT need to support full Unicode in the name tags. So I propose we allow Unicode only in the values and limit the name tags to US-ASCII. If nobody objects, I will edit the draft in this way. Thanks, Rainer _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Mon Sep 20 14:23:14 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26402 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F7C5C7AD; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:23:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com (mail.hq.adiscon.com [217.6.190.188]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407685C734 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8F19C763; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:00:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.adiscon.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (grfdeb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23722-01; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grfint2.intern.adiscon.com (grfint2 [172.19.0.6]) by mail.hq.adiscon.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA38A9C755; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:47:54 +0200 Message-ID: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FF5C@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Topic: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode Thread-Index: AcSfGEaUnzWapJvVSXi7PLIc8lpT5gADD67gAAMYgtA= From: "Rainer Gerhards" To: , X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p7 (Debian) at adiscon.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:23:10 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, I mostly agree with you. I have updated the draft in your spirit. There is one issue left - that is control characters in the structured data names. I would like to make sure that only printable characters are used for names. But what does printable mean in Unicode? As of my understanding, stating something like "printable Unicode characters" does not really make sense, as what printable is largely depends on the installed character sets. Or should I simply outrule the US-ASCII control character range - but this leaves e.g. Japanese width control characters open... I would appreciate any advise you can offer. Many thanks for all of your great help!=20 Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:35 PM > To: Rainer Gerhards; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode >=20 > Hi, >=20 > If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, I disagree with > this approach. >=20 > What I hear you saying is, we will allow, say, a Japanese operator to > express **values** in a Japanese langauge, but they need to learn a > US-ASCII based language to read the **name** for the data point. This > strikes me as being rather biased in favor of people that use > languages that are US-ASCII based. It would be easier for that > Japanese operator to be able to design their name-value pairs fully in > Japanese, both name and value.=20 >=20 > I also don't see why such a restriction is necessary. There is no > extra cost borne by US-ASCII language based users for allowing a > Unicode format, since US-ASCII is a subset of Unicode and no extra > bits on the wire are required for their US-ASCII name-value pairs when > written in Unicode format. >=20 > If you want to ensure that IETF-STANDARD name-value pairs are > understandable to the largest community, then requiring that IETF > standards-track names be specified in US-ASCII, that would make some > sense, but I think it probably should go further and require that the > names be in English, just as it is a requirement that Internet-Drafts > and RFCs be written in English. But this should NOT mean that the name > field, if it can also contain names that are not standards-track, > should be restricted to support only US-ASCII format. >=20 > I am also a bit concerned that requiring names to only support > US-ASCII will lead implementors to only support US-ASCII for the > values as well, and that would be unfair to a large, and growing, > percentage of Internet users. >=20 > So I tend to disagree with the suggestion to limit the name to > US-ASCII. >=20 > David Harrington > dbharrington@comcast.net >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > Gerhards > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:47 AM > To: syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode >=20 > Hi list, >=20 > STRUCTURED-DATA is currently specified as All-Unicode. STRUCTURED-DATA > consists of structured data elements. Each of them consists of a name > and name-value pairs. >=20 > After going through some scenarios, I think we do NOT need to support > full Unicode in the name tags. So I propose we allow Unicode only in > the values and limit the name tags to US-ASCII. If nobody objects, I > will edit the draft in this way. >=20 > Thanks, > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Wed Sep 22 06:28:59 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21082 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B8A5C786; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FF35C765 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djyxpy41 (h00104b8ce2a3.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.128.104.220]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004092203055501100isokqe>; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:05:55 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Rainer Gerhards'" , Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:05:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <577465F99B41C842AAFBE9ED71E70ABA02FF5C@grfint2.intern.adiscon.com> Thread-Index: AcSfGEaUnzWapJvVSXi7PLIc8lpT5gADD67gAAMYgtAASAGMgA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-Id: <20040922030556.F3FF35C765@willers.employees.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:28:54 -0700 X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietfdbh@comcast.net List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rainer, The experts in Unicode are Patrik Faltstrom and the Applications Area Ads. You should run this by them. dbh -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Gerhards [mailto:rgerhards@hq.adiscon.com] Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: ietfdbh@comcast.net; syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode David, I mostly agree with you. I have updated the draft in your spirit. There is one issue left - that is control characters in the structured data names. I would like to make sure that only printable characters are used for names. But what does printable mean in Unicode? As of my understanding, stating something like "printable Unicode characters" does not really make sense, as what printable is largely depends on the installed character sets. Or should I simply outrule the US-ASCII control character range - but this leaves e.g. Japanese width control characters open... I would appreciate any advise you can offer. Many thanks for all of your great help! Rainer > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:ietfdbh@comcast.net] > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:35 PM > To: Rainer Gerhards; syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: RE: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode > > Hi, > > If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, I disagree with > this approach. > > What I hear you saying is, we will allow, say, a Japanese operator to > express **values** in a Japanese langauge, but they need to learn a > US-ASCII based language to read the **name** for the data point. This > strikes me as being rather biased in favor of people that use > languages that are US-ASCII based. It would be easier for that > Japanese operator to be able to design their name-value pairs fully in > Japanese, both name and value. > > I also don't see why such a restriction is necessary. There is no > extra cost borne by US-ASCII language based users for allowing a > Unicode format, since US-ASCII is a subset of Unicode and no extra > bits on the wire are required for their US-ASCII name-value pairs when > written in Unicode format. > > If you want to ensure that IETF-STANDARD name-value pairs are > understandable to the largest community, then requiring that IETF > standards-track names be specified in US-ASCII, that would make some > sense, but I think it probably should go further and require that the > names be in English, just as it is a requirement that Internet-Drafts > and RFCs be written in English. But this should NOT mean that the name > field, if it can also contain names that are not standards-track, > should be restricted to support only US-ASCII format. > > I am also a bit concerned that requiring names to only support > US-ASCII will lead implementors to only support US-ASCII for the > values as well, and that would be unfair to a large, and growing, > percentage of Internet users. > > So I tend to disagree with the suggestion to limit the name to > US-ASCII. > > David Harrington > dbharrington@comcast.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org > [mailto:syslog-sec-bounces@www.employees.org] On Behalf Of Rainer > Gerhards > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:47 AM > To: syslog-sec@employees.org > Subject: [Syslog-sec] Sturctured Data & Unicode > > Hi list, > > STRUCTURED-DATA is currently specified as All-Unicode. STRUCTURED-DATA > consists of structured data elements. Each of them consists of a name > and name-value pairs. > > After going through some scenarios, I think we do NOT need to support > full Unicode in the name tags. So I propose we allow Unicode only in > the values and limit the name tags to US-ASCII. If nobody objects, I > will edit the draft in this way. > > Thanks, > Rainer > _______________________________________________ > Syslog-sec mailing list > Syslog-sec@www.employees.org > http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec > > > _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 24 16:06:18 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12033 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70725C776; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356535C735 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08847; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409241937.PAA08847@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:37:53 -0400 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:06:14 -0700 Cc: syslog-sec@employees.org Subject: [Syslog-sec] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Security Issues in Network Event Logging Working Group of the IETF. Title : The syslog Protocol Author(s) : R. Gerhards Filename : draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt Pages : 40 Date : 2004-9-24 This document describes the syslog protocol which is used to convey event notification messages. It describes a layered architecture for an easily extensible syslog protocol. It also describes the basic message format and structured elements used to provide meta-information about the message. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-9-24145835.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-9-24145835.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec --NextPart-- From syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Fri Sep 24 17:32:22 2004 Received: from willers.employees.org (willers.employees.org [192.83.249.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22601 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willers.employees.org (localhost.employees.org [127.0.0.1]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5435C735; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Delivered-To: syslog-sec@employees.org Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by willers.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095AC5C722 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Sep 2004 14:39:50 +0000 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from edison.cisco.com (edison.cisco.com [171.71.180.109]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i8OLOBVk025367 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (clonvick@localhost) by edison.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id NAA00695 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:29:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Lonvick To: syslog-sec@employees.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Syslog-sec] New ID and Updated Web Page X-BeenThere: syslog-sec@www.employees.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: syslog-sec.www.employees.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Errors-To: syslog-sec-bounces@willers.employees.org Hi Folks, Things are looking close to complete for syslog-protocol and syslog-transport-udp. Please review these documents and send your comments to the WG list. Our web page has the links to the documents: http://www.employees.org/~lonvick/index.shtml But so that you can jump right in: - syslog-protocol http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-06.txt - syslog-transport-udp http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-syslog-transport-udp-02.txt Thanks, Chris _______________________________________________ Syslog-sec mailing list Syslog-sec@www.employees.org http://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog-sec