From adam@nostrum.com Wed Aug 1 09:31:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8505E21F87FC for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4UHPSPWmME8 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B0D21F87F8 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-435b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-435b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.67.91]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q71GVDgJ061287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:31:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <501959D0.3030301@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:31:12 -0700 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion References: In-Reply-To: X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040308050900030702020309" Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 130.129.67.91 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Re: Organizing presentations in the meeting materials manager X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:31:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040308050900030702020309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is definitely something to think about in terms of how presentations are re-ordered. It might also help if chairs were prompted for where in the existing list of presentations a new presentation should appear when it is first uploaded. /a -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Organizing presentations in the meeting materials manager Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:28:35 -0500 From: Mary Barnes To: Ted Lemon CC: IETF WG Chairs I totally agree that it is clunky. I would personally rather have the mechanism we had in the past where we manually numbered the presentations and then hit re-order. That was less time consuming (but certainly no less error prone). Mary. On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Ted Lemon > wrote: On Aug 1, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > I'm in a WG session right now that has oodles of docs on the > agenda and the materials/presentations are not in the order of the > agenda. There is a feature to move docs up or down in the list > and I would encourage WG chairs to use that, in particular when > the text or document name in the meeting materials doesn't match > what's on the agenda. It is a bit clunky—my experience has been that it's easy to get it wrong. It would be nice if someone ported it to use the drag and drop features of some Javascript tool. BTW, I like your middle name! --------------040308050900030702020309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is definitely something to think about in terms of how presentations are re-ordered. It might also help if chairs were prompted for where in the existing list of presentations a new presentation should appear when it is first uploaded.

/a


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Organizing presentations in the meeting materials manager
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:28:35 -0500
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
CC: IETF WG Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>


I totally agree that it is clunky. I would personally rather have the mechanism we had in the past where we manually numbered the presentations and then hit re-order.  That was less time consuming (but certainly no less error prone).  

Mary. 

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:
On Aug 1, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:
I'm in a WG session right now that has oodles of docs on the agenda and the materials/presentations are not in the order of the agenda.  There is a feature to move docs up or down in the list and I would encourage WG chairs to use that, in particular when the text or document name in the meeting materials doesn't match what's on the agenda.   

It is a bit clunky—my experience has been that it's easy to get it wrong.   It would be nice if someone ported it to use the drag and drop features of some Javascript tool.

BTW, I like your middle name!





--------------040308050900030702020309-- From bclaise@cisco.com Wed Aug 1 15:38:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7831921F889F; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4uHfmjpeZeP0; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from av-tac-sj.cisco.com (av-tac-sj.cisco.com [171.68.227.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E150E21F88A9; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from fire.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-sj.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q71McVqQ011891; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.21.122.183] ([10.21.122.183]) by fire.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q71McUkm005032; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:38:30 -0700 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz , Robert Sparks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IESG IESG , Tools Team Discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:38:33 -0000 Hi, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/ -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 Regards, Benoit. From rjsparks@nostrum.com Wed Aug 1 15:41:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841EB11E8131; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1MWfq7PJhco1; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E7911E8117; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-51d6.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-51d6.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.81.214]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q71MfXGA097857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:41:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <5019B0A3.3090409@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:41:39 -0700 From: Robert Sparks User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise References: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 130.129.81.214 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:41:36 -0000 On 8/1/12 3:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Hi, > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/ > -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 > > Regards, Benoit. > Thanks - I'll go find what didn't happen right. For the moment, you can use the widget at the top of that page to get to the diff. RjS From housley@vigilsec.com Wed Aug 1 15:41:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755C711E817D; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.623 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.623 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asRYILTB-JOB; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.smetech.net (mail.smetech.net [208.254.26.82]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C245A11E8168; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [208.254.26.81]) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65320F24046; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:41:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smetech.net Received: from odin.smetech.net ([208.254.26.82]) by localhost (ronin.smetech.net [208.254.26.81]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GU4wUbTcdxo; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dhcp-55b9.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-55b9.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.85.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830D4F24040; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:41:37 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <99B8B7D3-D494-496A-BFFF-974F1665D087@vigilsec.com> References: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> To: Benoit Claise X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: IESG IESG , Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion , Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:41:43 -0000 This worked for me: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?&url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Hi, > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/ > -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 > > Regards, Benoit. > From rjsparks@nostrum.com Wed Aug 1 15:44:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAE211E8131; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfsySQFbxdvR; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5E311E811E; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-51d6.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-51d6.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.81.214]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q71MiAhb098067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:44:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <5019B13F.9020901@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:44:15 -0700 From: Robert Sparks User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Housley References: <5019AFE6.1090501@cisco.com> <99B8B7D3-D494-496A-BFFF-974F1665D087@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: <99B8B7D3-D494-496A-BFFF-974F1665D087@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040005060709030803060609" Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 130.129.81.214 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Benoit Claise , Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:44:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040005060709030803060609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/1/12 3:41 PM, Russ Housley wrote: > This worked for me: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?&url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 > > On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/ >> -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 >> >> Regards, Benoit. >> What he's pointing to is in the history, the second link in lines like this are broken: New version available: draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 (diff from -07 ) I'm on it (I caused it). RjS --------------040005060709030803060609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 8/1/12 3:41 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
This worked for me:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?&url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08

On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:


Hi,

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
   -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08

Regards, Benoit.



    

    What he's pointing to is in the history, the second link in lines
    like this are broken:

    
    New version available: draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
    (diff
      from -07)
    

    

    I'm on it (I caused it).

    

    RjS

    

    

  


--------------040005060709030803060609--

From turners@ieca.com  Wed Aug  1 15:54:10 2012
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On 8/1/12 3:41 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> On 8/1/12 3:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
>>     -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>
> Thanks - I'll go find what didn't happen right.
> For the moment, you can use the widget at the top of that page to get to
> the diff.

I was having some problems too.

spt

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On 8/1/12 3:44 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> On 8/1/12 3:41 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>> This worked for me:
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?&url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
>>
>> On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
>>>     ->http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit.
>>>
> What he's pointing to is in the history, the second link in lines like 
> this are broken:
> New version available: draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08 
>  (diff 
> from -07 
> ) 
>
>
> I'm on it (I caused it).
>
> RjS
I sent a patch to Henrik
>
>


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On 8/1/12 3:44 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:

    

    

      
      
On 8/1/12 3:41 PM, Russ Housley
        wrote:

      

      

        
This worked for me:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?&url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08

On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:



        

          
Hi,

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
   -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08

Regards, Benoit.



        

      

      What he's pointing to is in the history, the second link in lines
      like this are broken:

      
      New version available: draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
      (diff

        from -07) 

      

      I'm on it (I caused it).

      

      RjS

    

    I sent a patch to Henrik

    
 

      

    

    

  


--------------050204030005080308050206--

From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Aug  1 16:04:01 2012
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Cc: IESG IESG , Tools Team Discussion 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? -> working now
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Hi Robert & Henrik,

Working now.
Thanks for reacting (and solving!) fast.

Regards, Benoit.
> Hi,
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
>     -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
>
> Regards, Benoit.
>
>


From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Aug  1 16:17:39 2012
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Cc: IESG IESG , Tools Team Discussion , Robert Sparks 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] rfcdiff not working? -> working now
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Hi all,

I found and fixed this before seeing this thread, based on feedback from
another user.  I think this was caused by a codesprint change, but haven't
looked further.  Should be ok now, in any case.  Thanks for the patch,
Robert!


Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2012-08-01 16:03 Benoit Claise said the following:
> Hi Robert & Henrik,
> 
> Working now.
> Thanks for reacting (and solving!) fast.
> 
> Regards, Benoit.
>> Hi,
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-eman-requirements/history/
>>     -> http://{{rfcdiff_prefix}}/?url2=draft-ietf-eman-requirements-08
>>
>> Regards, Benoit.
>>
>>
> 
> 

From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Aug  2 11:13:38 2012
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] On the "replaced by / replaces" status of drafts ...
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Hello,

first, sorry for the long e-mail.
I am trying to do some clean-up regarding the above mentioned status
of various drafts of the mpls wg and some elements are quite puzzling.

A good complete example of what I would view as a proper situation is 
for draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk:
1/ at http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls we can see 
draft-allan-mpls-oam-frmwk being struck through and followed by 
"replaced by draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk"
2/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-allan-mpls-oam-frmwk shows in the 
header that it is replaced by draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk
3/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk shows in the 
header that it replaces draft-allan-mpls-oam-frmwk
4/ it also shows that itself is replaced by RFC4378
5/ and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4378 shows that it replaces 
draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk
6/ the information on the tracker is exactly the same (see 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-allan-mpls-oam-frmwk/ 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk/ and 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4378/ )

However, there are cases when this is not as ideal. For example:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-survey2002 shows 
draft-thomas-mpls-ldp-survey2002 as an ancestor but
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomas-mpls-ldp-survey2002 does not 
show draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-survey2002 as a descendant

There is an even stranger case:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-davie-mpls-rsvp indicates 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-rsvp as a descendant but this 
latter indicates http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-viswanathan-mpls-rsvp 
as an ancestor and this latter does not show anything for descendants.

So, is the "replaced by / replaces" status bidirectional or not?
My belief was that yes it is, as we only to ask the secretariat to
mark A as replaced by B and we normally get it in both directions but 
some examples make me doubt.


Also, on http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls, shows drafts replaced by others 
and does so by having the draft title struck through and by indicating 
"replaced by ...". But, for example:
draft-raggarwa-mpls-rsvp-upstream is not struck through and indeed
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raggarwa-mpls-rsvp-upstream shows no 
descendant but it is in fact the ancestor of 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-rsvp-upstream as indicated in 
the header of this latter.
So again, it seems possible to have a unidirectional replacement status 
and on top of that drafts titles seem to be struck through only if 
drafts are replaced by another one but not if the other one replaces them.

Finally, there are some discrepancies between the replacement statuses 
indicated in the datatracker and on the tools pages. As an example (but
there are others):
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ipv6-pw-lsp-ping
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ipv6-pw-lsp-ping/
On the tools page the replacement status (with 
draft-chen-mpls-ipv6-pw-lsp-ping) is defined and is bidirectional but 
there is no such status
in the tracker.


In relation to the replacement topic, yet not directly linked:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls shows a long list of documents (Related 
Active Documents) but a good proportion of them have in fact expired a 
(very) long time ago.
I noticed that all of the expired documents in that list are documents 
which carry the same name than a working group document (except for the 
prefix draft-ietf/draft-myname). This seems to be the reason for them 
appearing in that list, regardless of any replacement status.
The glitch that leads me to that conclusion is the presence of
draft-liu-mpls-tp-ring-protection in the list.
This document has expired and is not replaced by any WG document.
It is draft-weingarten-mpls-tp-linear-protection which is replaced by 
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-linear-protection, and this is correctly shown.

There is another glitch, which I can't explain, which is the presence of 
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext. This is a ccamp document.
The reason is not because it carries mpls in its file name because ccamp
has other such documents and they do not appear here. Also it is 
identified as expired, dating 2010, version 01, but the document is 
alive at version 08.

So,
1/ I would definitely welcome explanations regarding the strange 
replacement statuses and how to fix these. I can ask the secretariat for 
resetting the replacement status for each, but just want to make
sure the desired effect will happen.

2/ How are the datatracker and the tools pages synchronized with regards 
to the replacement status and how can we make sure that there are no 
discrepancies?

2/ Would it be possible that the conditions for listing documents in the 
"Related Active Documents" list be such that
only working-group-associated-active documents be listed
or that working-group-associated-active documents together with 
working-group-associated-expired-documents-but-replaced-by-active-wg-documents 
be listed?
I insist on active, because a bunch of expired documents in the current 
list are effectively replaced by working group documents but these have 
expired, and in my opinion these docs should thus not appear in the list.

Thank you.
Martin

From aakhter@cisco.com  Thu Aug  2 16:05:59 2012
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From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Aug  2 17:25:40 2012
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] On the "replaced by / replaces" status of drafts ...
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sorry, I got mixed up on two draft names

> In relation to the replacement topic, yet not directly linked:
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls shows a long list of documents (Related
> Active Documents) but a good proportion of them have in fact expired a
> (very) long time ago.
> I noticed that all of the expired documents in that list are documents
> which carry the same name than a working group document (except for the
> prefix draft-ietf/draft-myname). This seems to be the reason for them
> appearing in that list, regardless of any replacement status.
> The glitch that leads me to that conclusion is the presence of
> draft-liu-mpls-tp-ring-protection in the list.
> This document has expired and is not replaced by any WG document.
> It is draft-weingarten-mpls-tp-linear-protection which is replaced by
> draft-ietf-mpls-tp-linear-protection, and this is correctly shown.

please read draft-weingarten-mpls-tp-ring-protection and 
draft-ietf-mpls-tp-ring-protection instead.

From bclaise@cisco.com  Thu Aug  9 07:56:43 2012
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] cron job for the IETF doctors/directorates
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--------------070901040700090801020501
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Dear all,

Alan Dekok has this excellent weekly script for the AAA directorates: it 
returns all the active IETF drafts that have a reference to radius. The 
results are sent via email.
For example:

    draft-ietf-softwire-6rd-radius-attrib-05          Active	
    draft-ietf-abfab-arch-03                          Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
    draft-ietf-geopriv-held-measurements-05           Active	
    draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-radius-opt-01               Active	
    draft-ietf-abfab-aaa-saml-03                      Active	
    draft-ietf-precis-framework-04                    Active	

This script from Alan Dekok helps the doctors to list which drafts 
reference the directorate area of interest.
During the AAA lunch at the IETF, we discussed the script extension to 
other directorates.
Alan updated his script for the YANG doctors.

    $ ./ietf-tech-report -r yang
    draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-04                  Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-iana-if-type-04                 Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-interfaces-cfg-05               Active	
    draft-ietf-ipfix-configuration-model-11           In IESG processing -
    ID Tracker state 	
    draft-ietf-netmod-iana-timezones-00               Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-snmp-cfg-00                     Active	
    draft-ietf-netmod-ip-cfg-05                       Active

Pretty cool, isn't it?

The ideal solution would be
     - to host this script on an IETF server
     - to have multiple script instances for each doctor/directorate
I'm trying to pursue that route.

Do you think it's possible? Practically, how to proceed?

Regards, Benoit.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[AAA-DOCTORS] Updated "tech report" script
Date: 	Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:28:30 +0200
From: 	Alan T DeKok 
Reply-To: 	aland@freeradius.org
To: 	aaa-doctors@ietf.org



   I've put it up on github:

https://github.com/alandekok/ietf-tech-report

   With documentation and everything...

$ ./ietf-tech-report -r radius
draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-radius-opt-01               Active	
draft-ietf-softwire-6rd-radius-attrib-05          Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-arch-03                          Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-aaa-saml-03                      Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-gss-eap-08                       In IESG processing -
ID Tracker state 	


$ ./ietf-tech-report -r yang
draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-if-type-04                 Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-interfaces-cfg-05               Active	
draft-ietf-ipfix-configuration-model-11           In IESG processing -
ID Tracker state 	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-timezones-00               Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-snmp-cfg-00                     Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-ip-cfg-05                       Active
_______________________________________________
AAA-DOCTORS mailing list
AAA-DOCTORS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aaa-doctors






--------------070901040700090801020501
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  

    
  
  
    Dear all,

    

    Alan Dekok has this excellent weekly script for the AAA
    directorates: it returns all the active IETF drafts that have a
    reference to radius. The results are sent via email.

    For example:

    

      
draft-ietf-softwire-6rd-radius-attrib-05          Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-arch-03                          Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-geopriv-held-measurements-05           Active	
draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-radius-opt-01               Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-aaa-saml-03                      Active	
draft-ietf-precis-framework-04                    Active	



    

    This script from Alan Dekok helps the doctors to list which drafts
    reference the directorate area of interest.

    During the AAA lunch at the IETF, we discussed the script extension
    to other directorates.

    Alan updated his script for the YANG doctors.

    

      
$ ./ietf-tech-report -r yang
draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-if-type-04                 Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-interfaces-cfg-05               Active	
draft-ietf-ipfix-configuration-model-11           In IESG processing -
ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-timezones-00               Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-snmp-cfg-00                     Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-ip-cfg-05                       Active

    

    Pretty cool, isn't it?

    

    The ideal solution would be 

        - to host this script on an IETF server

        - to have multiple script instances for each doctor/directorate
    
 I'm trying to pursue that route.

      

      Do you think it's possible? Practically, how to proceed?

      

      Regards, Benoit.

      

      -------- Original Message --------
      

        
          

            Subject:
            
            [AAA-DOCTORS] Updated "tech report" script
          

          

            Date: 
            Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:28:30 +0200
          

          

            From: 
            Alan T DeKok <aland@freeradius.org>
          

          

            Reply-To:
            
            aland@freeradius.org
          

          

            To: 
            aaa-doctors@ietf.org
          

        
      

      

      

      
  I've put it up on github:

https://github.com/alandekok/ietf-tech-report

  With documentation and everything...

$ ./ietf-tech-report -r radius
draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-radius-opt-01               Active	
draft-ietf-softwire-6rd-radius-attrib-05          Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-arch-03                          Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-aaa-saml-03                      Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-abfab-gss-eap-08                       In IESG processing -
ID Tracker state <Approved-announcement to be sent::Point Raised -
writeup needed>	


$ ./ietf-tech-report -r yang
draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-04                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-if-type-04                 Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-system-mgmt-02                  Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-interfaces-cfg-05               Active	
draft-ietf-ipfix-configuration-model-11           In IESG processing -
ID Tracker state <RFC Ed Queue>	
draft-ietf-netmod-iana-timezones-00               Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-snmp-cfg-00                     Active	
draft-ietf-netmod-ip-cfg-05                       Active
_______________________________________________
AAA-DOCTORS mailing list
AAA-DOCTORS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aaa-doctors




      

      

    

    

  


--------------070901040700090801020501--

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From: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE 
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Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "Tools-discuss@ietf.org" , opsawg-chairs 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] hosting of opsawg at news.gmane.org
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Didn't hear from them for a long time, then did, and then quiet again.  =
I will re-pickup
=09
	Chris

On 02Aug2012, at 16.05, Aamer Akhter (aakhter) wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>=20
> Did the replication of the archive to news.gmane.org occour? I wasn't =
able to find it there.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christopher =
LILJENSTOLPE
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:01 AM
> To: Aamer Akhter (aakhter); opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: Tools-discuss@ietf.org; opsawg-chairs
> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] hosting of opsawg at news.gmane.org
>=20
> Consider it done.  Please remember that the ietf mailing list archive =
is the definitive one.
>=20
> 	Chris
>=20
> On 28Mar2012, at 00.48, Aamer Akhter (aakhter) wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> There are a large number of IETF mailing lists hosted at gmane. I =
have=20
>> found it a much easier interface to interact with rather than the=20
>> official archive at=20
>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/opsawg/current/maillist.html).
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 1)      Would it be possible to import the existing archive into
>> gmane.org?
>> This requires the 'owner' of mailing list to make the request.=20
>> http://gmane.org/import.php
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 2)      Would it be possible for gmane.org to subscribe to the =
mailing
>> list such as to archive the forward discussions in a nicer interface?
>> http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks for any consideration,
>>=20
>> aa
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> --
> =E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
> Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
> Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
> Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl


From christopher.liljenstolpe@bigswitch.com  Thu Aug  2 16:38:58 2012
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Greetings guys,

	Can I get a copy of the existing archive in mbox format to =
jumpstart gmane?

	Chris
-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl


From christopher.liljenstolpe@bigswitch.com  Thu Aug  2 17:08:55 2012
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References: <7F298ACC76CC154F832B6D02852D169F079F3DC8@XMB-RCD-101.cisco.com> <9AD0D6B7-6587-4864-B427-571DC97C44FD@cdl.asgaard.org> <75C0E47A1889264493A2DCB2869AC0960F53CC57@xmb-rcd-x15.cisco.com> 
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Greetings,

	The request is in.

	Chris

On 02Aug2012, at 16.38, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:

> Didn't hear from them for a long time, then did, and then quiet again. =
 I will re-pickup
> =09
> 	Chris
>=20
> On 02Aug2012, at 16.05, Aamer Akhter (aakhter) wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Guys,
>>=20
>> Did the replication of the archive to news.gmane.org occour? I wasn't =
able to find it there.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christopher =
LILJENSTOLPE
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:01 AM
>> To: Aamer Akhter (aakhter); opsawg@ietf.org
>> Cc: Tools-discuss@ietf.org; opsawg-chairs
>> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] hosting of opsawg at news.gmane.org
>>=20
>> Consider it done.  Please remember that the ietf mailing list archive =
is the definitive one.
>>=20
>> 	Chris
>>=20
>> On 28Mar2012, at 00.48, Aamer Akhter (aakhter) wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> There are a large number of IETF mailing lists hosted at gmane. I =
have=20
>>> found it a much easier interface to interact with rather than the=20
>>> official archive at=20
>>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/opsawg/current/maillist.html).
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 1)      Would it be possible to import the existing archive into
>>> gmane.org?
>>> This requires the 'owner' of mailing list to make the request.=20
>>> http://gmane.org/import.php
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 2)      Would it be possible for gmane.org to subscribe to the =
mailing
>>> list such as to archive the forward discussions in a nicer =
interface?
>>> http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for any consideration,
>>>=20
>>> aa
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> =E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
>> Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
>> Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
>> Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> -- =20
> =E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
> Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
> Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
> Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl
>=20

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl


From jjekasit@gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 09:12:06 2012
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From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Sat Aug 11 09:58:42 2012
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To: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE 
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Cc: Tools Team Discussion , opsawg-chairs 
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On Aug 2, 2012, at 4:38 PM, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:

> Greetings guys,

If you address something to opsawg-chairs@tools.ietf.org, you might want =
to use a different greeting.

> 	Can I get a copy of the existing archive in mbox format to =
jumpstart gmane?

You can FTP to ftp.ietf.org, go to /ietf-mail-archive/opsawg, pull down =
all the files, and cat them together.

--Paul Hoffman=

From christopher.liljenstolpe@bigswitch.com  Sat Aug 11 10:01:24 2012
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Greetings Paul,

	I was copying the rest of the chairs, but sending to you.  In =
the mean time, I remembered about the ftp archive - already have it - =
thx.

	Chris

On 11Aug2012, at 09.58, Paul Hoffman  wrote:

> On Aug 2, 2012, at 4:38 PM, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:
>=20
>> Greetings guys,
>=20
> If you address something to opsawg-chairs@tools.ietf.org, you might =
want to use a different greeting.
>=20
>> 	Can I get a copy of the existing archive in mbox format to =
jumpstart gmane?
>=20
> You can FTP to ftp.ietf.org, go to /ietf-mail-archive/opsawg, pull =
down all the files, and cat them together.
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl


From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Sat Aug 11 10:48:09 2012
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On Aug 11, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:

> Greetings Paul,
>=20
> 	I was copying the rest of the chairs, but sending to you.  In =
the mean time, I remembered about the ftp archive - already have it - =
thx.

Sorry, I was too subtle. Melinda Shore, one of the opsawg chairs, can =
(and does!) speak for herself, but I bristle when men in the IETF assume =
that there all women in the IETF are comfortable being called "guys".

--Paul Hoffman=

From melinda.shore@gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 10:52:35 2012
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On 8/11/12 9:48 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> Sorry, I was too subtle. Melinda Shore, one of the opsawg chairs, can
> (and does!) speak for herself, but I bristle when men in the IETF
> assume that there all women in the IETF are comfortable being called
> "guys".

I tend to use the word "guy" generically (like, network elements and
whatnot) but I agree, there's really no downside to using inclusive
language.

Melinda

From christopher.liljenstolpe@bigswitch.com  Mon Aug 13 09:57:30 2012
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Greetings,

	I'm sorry I offended you, Paul...

	Christopher

On 11Aug2012, at 10.48, Paul Hoffman  wrote:

> On Aug 11, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:
>=20
>> Greetings Paul,
>>=20
>> 	I was copying the rest of the chairs, but sending to you.  In =
the mean time, I remembered about the ftp archive - already have it - =
thx.
>=20
> Sorry, I was too subtle. Melinda Shore, one of the opsawg chairs, can =
(and does!) speak for herself, but I bristle when men in the IETF assume =
that there all women in the IETF are comfortable being called "guys".
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf
Check my calendar availability: https://tungle.me/cdl


From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 00:24:30 2012
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From: Abdussalam Baryun 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] How to track Returned I-Ds or Replaced RFCs
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Hi All,

I am still trying to use tools efficiently, but not sure how to find
the following, please advise:

1) Any returned I-D from IESG to WG/individual.
2) Any replaced/obsolete RFC.
3) Any update RFC.

Thanking you,

Abdussalam Baryun,
University of Glamorgan, UK

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Mon Aug 27 07:41:18 2012
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To: Abdussalam Baryun 
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Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How to track Returned I-Ds or Replaced RFCs
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On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Abdussalam Baryun =
 wrote:

> I am still trying to use tools efficiently, but not sure how to find
> the following, please advise:
>=20
> 1) Any returned I-D from IESG to WG/individual.
> 2) Any replaced/obsolete RFC.
> 3) Any update RFC.

During the extensive discussions of what should be able to be subscribed =
in the Datatracker, none of those came up. People were more focused on =
following certain documents, not on following generic process changes.

Having said that, you can track any of the above by grabbing the =
underlying Internet Draft and RFC databases and writing your own code to =
look for such changes.

--Paul Hoffman=

From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 02:22:41 2012
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Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:22:30 +0100
Message-ID: 
From: Abdussalam Baryun 
To: Paul Hoffman 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c47c4b8fba04c84ffb5d
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How to track Returned I-Ds or Replaced RFCs
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--e89a8ff1c47c4b8fba04c84ffb5d
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Hi

It will be good to be noticed of the documents that are changed/return in
the overall IETF system, as we are noticed of the I-D submitted, and we are
asked for comments, so if I give my comments I would like to know the
outcome as a reply to my comments (I am noticed by the system only if the
document was successful but if returned I have to search).

AB

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Paul Hoffman  wrote:

> On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Abdussalam Baryun <
> abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am still trying to use tools efficiently, but not sure how to find
> > the following, please advise:
> >
> > 1) Any returned I-D from IESG to WG/individual.
> > 2) Any replaced/obsolete RFC.
> > 3) Any update RFC.
>
> During the extensive discussions of what should be able to be subscribed
> in the Datatracker, none of those came up. People were more focused on
> following certain documents, not on following generic process changes.
>
> Having said that, you can track any of the above by grabbing the
> underlying Internet Draft and RFC databases and writing your own code to
> look for such changes.
>
> --Paul Hoffman

--e89a8ff1c47c4b8fba04c84ffb5d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi
=A0
It will be good to be noticed of the docume=
nts that are changed/return in the overall IETF system, as we are noticed o=
f the I-D submitted, and we are asked for comments, so if I give my comment=
s I would like to know the outcome as a reply to my comments (I am noticed =
by the system=A0only if the document was successful but if returned I have =
to search).


=A0
AB

On Mon, Aug 2=
7, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>=
 wrote:


On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Abdussalam=
 Baryun <abdussalambaryun@=
gmail.com> wrote:




> I am still trying to use tools efficiently, but not sure how to find
> the following, please advise:

>

> 1) Any returned I-D from IESG to WG/individual.

> 2) Any replaced/obsolete RFC.

> 3) Any update RFC.




During the extensive discussions of what should be able to be subscri=
bed in the Datatracker, none of those came up. People were more focused on =
following certain documents, not on following generic process changes.




Having said that, you can track any of the above by grabbing the underlying=
 Internet Draft and RFC databases and writing your own code to look for suc=
h changes.



--Paul Hoffman



--e89a8ff1c47c4b8fba04c84ffb5d--

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Tue Aug 28 08:10:10 2012
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To: Abdussalam Baryun 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1486)
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] How to track Returned I-Ds or Replaced RFCs
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On Aug 28, 2012, at 2:22 AM, Abdussalam Baryun =
 wrote:

> It will be good to be noticed of the documents that are changed/return =
in the overall IETF system, as we are noticed of the I-D submitted, and =
we are asked for comments, so if I give my comments I would like to know =
the outcome as a reply to my comments (I am noticed by the system only =
if the document was successful but if returned I have to search).

Then you should simply subscribe to any Internet Draft you want to =
follow. Again: yours is the first request for such a general "tell me if =
any draft is..." stream, so the simple solution (subscribe to the drafts =
you care about) is better.

--Paul Hoffman=

From thomas.morin@orange.com  Wed Aug 29 00:59:26 2012
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From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Aug 30 07:09:25 2012
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Why does the Datatracker take so long to notice new RFCs?
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RFC 6722 was posted last night. As of this moment, the following search =
fails:

=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=3D6722&rfcs=3Don&search_subm=
it=3D

Why the delay?

--Paul Hoffman=

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From: "Eggert, Lars" 
To: Henrik Levkowetz , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. =46rom =
the boilerplate text:
>=20
>   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six =
months
>   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>=20
> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>=20
> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas =
Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, =
draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>=20
> I use:
>=20
> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas =
Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft =
draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.

Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on =
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:

{authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in =
Progress, {date:%B %Y}.

Make this the default?

Lars=

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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 07:59:50 2012
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Cc: RSOC , Henrik Levkowetz , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "rsag@rfc-editor.org" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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On 30/08/2012 15:16, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. From the boilerplate text:
>>
>>   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>>   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>>
>> I use:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
> 
> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
> 
> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}.
> 
> Make this the default?

Not 100% obvious. The ancient citations committee spent quite a
lot of time  on this issue. There are some issues discussed at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01#section-4
and even more at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01#section-6

It isn't simple at all, regardless of whether you [dis]agree
with the committee's recommendations.

   Brian



From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Aug 30 08:12:29 2012
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Cc: RSOC , Heather Flanagan , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "rsag@rfc-editor.org" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Hi Lars,

The suggestion below is fine for me; I'd like to hear if it also works
for Ole, who had the idea for the tool in the first place.

Ole?


Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2012-08-30 16:16 Eggert, Lars said:
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. From the boilerplate text:
>>
>>    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>>    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>>
>> I use:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
>
> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>
> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}.
>
> Make this the default?
>
> Lars
>

From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 08:21:30 2012
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To: "Eggert, Lars" 
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Cc: RSOC , Henrik Levkowetz , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "rsag@rfc-editor.org" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Rsoc] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Lars,

On Aug 30, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:

> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. =46rom =
the boilerplate text:
>>=20
>>  Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six =
months
>>  and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>  time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>=20
>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>=20
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas =
Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, =
draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>>=20
>> I use:
>>=20
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas =
Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft =
draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
>=20
> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field =
on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>=20
> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in =
Progress, {date:%B %Y}.

I like yours.  A question, why are affiliations included in the =
reference?  We don't do that in references in RFCs?

Bob


>=20
> Make this the default?
>=20
> Lars_______________________________________________
> Rsoc mailing list
> Rsoc@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rsoc


From lars@netapp.com  Thu Aug 30 08:22:44 2012
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From: "Eggert, Lars" 
To: Bob Hinden 
Thread-Topic: [Rsoc] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:22:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Rsoc] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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They shouldnt be, I agree

--=20
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

On Aug 30, 2012, at 17:21, "Bob Hinden"  wrote:

> Lars,
>=20
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>=20
>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. =46rom th=
e boilerplate text:
>>>=20
>>> Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>>> and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>> time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>=20
>>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>>=20
>>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadea=
u, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, draft-ward-irs-fr=
amework-00.
>>>=20
>>> I use:
>>>=20
>>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadea=
u, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft draft-ward-ir=
s-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
>>=20
>> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on h=
ttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>>=20
>> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progre=
ss, {date:%B %Y}.
>=20
> I like yours.  A question, why are affiliations included in the reference?=
  We don't do that in references in RFCs?
>=20
> Bob
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Make this the default?
>>=20
>> Lars_______________________________________________
>> Rsoc mailing list
>> Rsoc@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rsoc
>=20

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From klensin@jck.com  Thu Aug 30 08:28:53 2012
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From: John C Klensin 
To: Ole Jacobsen , Henrik Levkowetz 
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--On Thursday, August 30, 2012 08:20 -0700 Ole Jacobsen
 wrote:

> 
> No, for I-D, I want the filename LAST because I want to (if
> possible) have it one ONE line, not wrapped.

I still think that there are really two types of I-D citations
and that the difference should be reflected in the references:

(1) Actual "work in progress".  These should be cited as such as
should _not_ include a filename.  Including a filename not only
moves us several steps toward supporting the idea of I-Ds as an
archival series but increases the odds that someone will end up
looking up an I-D rather than the successor RFC.  Include a
title and author information and let those who want to find the
current version resort to either the I-D Database or a Search
engine.

(2) I-Ds cited informationally as part of historical context.
For them, the "make sure the reference can be found" principle
outweighs the "risk of archival treatment" one and we know that
the document cited is not going to change or be superceded (at
least for the purposes of the citation).  So including a file
name (and similar information, if any) is entirely appropriate.

Until we are willing to make --and be ready to enforce-- that
distinction, it seems to me that there is no way to get a
citation tool right.

best,
    john


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why does the Datatracker take so long to notice new RFCs?
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Paul,

The datatracker relies on rfc-index.xml (from rfc-editor.org) to get =
this data. On the RFC Editor end, after publication yesterday, we had an =
unusual delay (12 hours) in updating that XML file due to internal =
upgrades.=20

In general, when an RFC publication announcement goes out, the RFC is =
available from the RFC search page =
(http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html) and various RFC index files =
(including the XML file) have been updated. Typically, there is a short =
delay before it's visible in the datatracker.  (I understand =
rfc-index.xml is polled daily.)

Btw, I think one goal of the upcoming implementation of extensions for =
datatracker / IANA / RFC Editor interaction (specified in RFC 6359) is =
to eliminate the typical delay -- or come close.

Thank you.

Alice Russo
RFC Production Center

On Aug 30, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:

> RFC 6722 was posted last night. As of this moment, the following =
search fails:
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=3D6722&rfcs=3Don&search_subm=
it=3D
>=20
> Why the delay?
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20


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From: "Eggert, Lars" 
To: John C Klensin 
Thread-Topic: [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
Thread-Index: AQHNb0igNg5IgJ3khUOcrqwfWeNK7pdETJSAgAAPh4CAAANygIAAFyKAgAAFeoCADZbeAIAAEeWAgCDl5AD//5yGjIAAd7cAgAANwoA=
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:18:03 +0000
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Cc: RSOC , Ole Jacobsen , Henrik Levkowetz , "" , "" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Hi,

The boilerplate of every I-D says 'It is inappropriate to use =
Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as =
"work in progress."'

There is no distinction between types of I-Ds. If we want that =
distinction, we need to get consensus to change the boilerplate.=20

Until that consensus for change is established, I think it's pretty =
clear that all I-Ds must always be cited as "work in progress" per the =
boilerplate.

Lars

On Aug 30, 2012, at 17:28, John C Klensin 
 wrote:

>=20
>=20
> --On Thursday, August 30, 2012 08:20 -0700 Ole Jacobsen
>  wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> No, for I-D, I want the filename LAST because I want to (if
>> possible) have it one ONE line, not wrapped.
>=20
> I still think that there are really two types of I-D citations
> and that the difference should be reflected in the references:
>=20
> (1) Actual "work in progress".  These should be cited as such as
> should _not_ include a filename.  Including a filename not only
> moves us several steps toward supporting the idea of I-Ds as an
> archival series but increases the odds that someone will end up
> looking up an I-D rather than the successor RFC.  Include a
> title and author information and let those who want to find the
> current version resort to either the I-D Database or a Search
> engine.
>=20
> (2) I-Ds cited informationally as part of historical context.
> For them, the "make sure the reference can be found" principle
> outweighs the "risk of archival treatment" one and we know that
> the document cited is not going to change or be superceded (at
> least for the purposes of the citation).  So including a file
> name (and similar information, if any) is entirely appropriate.
>=20
> Until we are willing to make --and be ready to enforce-- that
> distinction, it seems to me that there is no way to get a
> citation tool right.
>=20
> best,
>    john
>=20


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From: "Eggert, Lars" 
To: John C Klensin 
Thread-Topic: [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
Thread-Index: AQHNb0igNg5IgJ3khUOcrqwfWeNK7g==
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:20:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Sorry, I was hasty and misread your original email. You don't want to =
omit the "work in progress bit" in some cases, you want to sometimes =
omit the ID file name.

Orthogonal issue, and deserves discussion, but this thread is about =
adding the "work in progress" bit to the default template, as required =
by the boilerplate.

Lars


On Aug 30, 2012, at 18:18, Lars Eggert 
 wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> The boilerplate of every I-D says 'It is inappropriate to use =
Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as =
"work in progress."'
>=20
> There is no distinction between types of I-Ds. If we want that =
distinction, we need to get consensus to change the boilerplate.=20
>=20
> Until that consensus for change is established, I think it's pretty =
clear that all I-Ds must always be cited as "work in progress" per the =
boilerplate.
>=20
> Lars
>=20
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 17:28, John C Klensin 
> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --On Thursday, August 30, 2012 08:20 -0700 Ole Jacobsen
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> No, for I-D, I want the filename LAST because I want to (if
>>> possible) have it one ONE line, not wrapped.
>>=20
>> I still think that there are really two types of I-D citations
>> and that the difference should be reflected in the references:
>>=20
>> (1) Actual "work in progress".  These should be cited as such as
>> should _not_ include a filename.  Including a filename not only
>> moves us several steps toward supporting the idea of I-Ds as an
>> archival series but increases the odds that someone will end up
>> looking up an I-D rather than the successor RFC.  Include a
>> title and author information and let those who want to find the
>> current version resort to either the I-D Database or a Search
>> engine.
>>=20
>> (2) I-Ds cited informationally as part of historical context.
>> For them, the "make sure the reference can be found" principle
>> outweighs the "risk of archival treatment" one and we know that
>> the document cited is not going to change or be superceded (at
>> least for the purposes of the citation).  So including a file
>> name (and similar information, if any) is entirely appropriate.
>>=20
>> Until we are willing to make --and be ready to enforce-- that
>> distinction, it seems to me that there is no way to get a
>> citation tool right.
>>=20
>> best,
>>   john
>>=20
>=20


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From lars@netapp.com  Thu Aug 30 09:22:35 2012
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From: "Eggert, Lars" 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:22:37 +0000
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Cc: RSOC , Henrik Levkowetz , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "rsag@rfc-editor.org" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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On Aug 30, 2012, at 16:59, Brian E Carpenter =

 wrote:
>=20
> Not 100% obvious. The ancient citations committee spent quite a
> lot of time  on this issue. There are some issues discussed at
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01#section-4
> and even more at
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01#section-6
>=20
> It isn't simple at all, regardless of whether you [dis]agree
> with the committee's recommendations.

At the moment, they're described in an I-D without having undergone a =
consensus call. Once they have I'm all for the tool respecting what the =
committee guidelines will be. Until then, we should make the tool comply =
to the current rules, which require the "work in progress" bit.

Lars=

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From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Aug 30 09:34:22 2012
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To: Alice Russo 
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Cc: Tools Team Discussion , RFC Editor 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why does the Datatracker take so long to notice new RFCs?
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On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Alice Russo  wrote:

> The datatracker relies on rfc-index.xml (from rfc-editor.org) to get =
this data.

Thanks, that's useful information.

> On the RFC Editor end, after publication yesterday, we had an unusual =
delay (12 hours) in updating that XML file due to internal upgrades.=20

Also useful.

> In general, when an RFC publication announcement goes out, the RFC is =
available from the RFC search page =
(http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html) and various RFC index files =
(including the XML file) have been updated. Typically, there is a short =
delay before it's visible in the datatracker.  (I understand =
rfc-index.xml is polled daily.)

"Daily" seems silly; hourly or even quarter-hourly seems much more =
sensible.

The reason I bring this up is that we have people who want to subscribe =
to the Atom feeds for RFCs in which they are interested. An RFC =
announcement comes out; a person says "that's an interesting RFC" and =
starts to read it; they think it is interesting enough to want to =
subscribe to the Atom feed so they know when the RFC has been updated or =
there is an errata.

It is a disservice to make them have to wait an indeterminate amount of =
time in order to be able to subscribe to the Atom feed.

> Btw, I think one goal of the upcoming implementation of extensions for =
datatracker / IANA / RFC Editor interaction (specified in RFC 6359) is =
to eliminate the typical delay -- or come close.

That work seems off in the future; a simple fix would be for the =
Datatracker to poll for rfc-index.xml much more often.

--Paul Hoffman=

From klensin@jck.com  Thu Aug 30 09:50:10 2012
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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:49:59 -0400
From: John C Klensin 
To: "Eggert, Lars" 
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Cc: RSOC , Ole Jacobsen , Henrik Levkowetz , "" , "" 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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--On Thursday, August 30, 2012 16:18 +0000 "Eggert, Lars"
 wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> The boilerplate of every I-D says 'It is inappropriate to use
> Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other
> than as "work in progress."'
> 
> There is no distinction between types of I-Ds. If we want that
> distinction, we need to get consensus to change the
> boilerplate. 
> 
> Until that consensus for change is established, I think it's
> pretty clear that all I-Ds must always be cited as "work in
> progress" per the boilerplate.

Lars,

First of all, let's distinguish between "consensus in the
community" and "decision made by the RFC Editor and/or IESG".
IIR, the "must always be cited [only] as 'work in progress"
decision about RFCs was an RFC Editor decision.  So was the
decision that "must always be cited" implied "only" and the
consequent prohibition on inclusion of file names.

So, first of all, if the question is going to be "where is the
consensus for a change" or "we can't make a change without
establishing a consensus for it", then the existing practice is
"no filenames or even dates associated with I-Ds in RFCs" and a
discussion about where to put the filename is largely irrelevant.

Second -- and with the understanding that it _is_ a proposal for
a change-- we've taken some pride over the years in the
principle that the IETF (and RFC Editor) communities value good
sense and rationality over narrow interpretation of procedures.
Describing a document that is cited purely for historical
purposes, with a general understanding that either it will never
be revised or updated or that the version cited is a permanent
citation regardless of what happens to the document, as a "work
in progress" is silly and nearly self-contradictory.  So I think
we should change that, either by adopting a style other than
"work in prgress" or by banning such citations entirely (which
leads to a different silly state).  

YMMD, of course.  But, in the context of what to do about file
names, what I was trying to say was "let's not authorize
filenames unless we make a distinction about types of I-D
citations".

best,
   john




From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Aug 30 10:07:56 2012
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To: Lars Eggert 
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Cc: Ole Jacobsen , Tools Team Discussion , RSOC , John C Klensin , Henrik Levkowetz , rsag@rfc-editor.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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tl;dr of John's message: what you think is "pretty clear" leads to silly =
states, and that has been discussed but not fixed.

+1 to John's message.

--Paul Hoffman=

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Aug 30 10:41:32 2012
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Cc: RSOC , Heather Flanagan , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "rsag@rfc-editor.org" 
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Hi,

On 2012-08-30 17:20 Ole Jacobsen said the following:
> 
> No, for I-D, I want the filename LAST because I want to (if possible)
> have it one ONE line, not wrapped.

For the tool, I'm planning to resolve this as follows for now:

 * I'm going to add cookie support, so any user of the tool, after the first
   time, gets the templates he used the previous time he used the tool (with
   a given browser), so everyone can tweak things to his preference and have
   it stick.

 * I'm going to change the default template for drafts to this:

   {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}, {docname}

   which should let anyone who don't want the explicit draftname shown delete
   it easily, in addition to lowering the chances of it being broken across
   lines.


Best regards,

	Henrik


> Ole
> 
> 
> Ole J. Jacobsen
> Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
> Cisco Systems
> Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
> E-mail: ole@cisco.com  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
> Skype: organdemo
> 
> 
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
>> Hi Lars,
>> 
>> The suggestion below is fine for me; I'd like to hear if it also works
>> for Ole, who had the idea for the tool in the first place.
>> 
>> Ole?
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> 	Henrik
>> 
>> On 2012-08-30 16:16 Eggert, Lars said:
>> > On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> > > one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. From the
>> > > boilerplate text:
>> > >
>> > >    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>> > >    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>> > >    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>> > >           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>> > >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > >
>> > > I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>> > >
>> > > Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau,
>> > > "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012,
>> > > draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>> > >
>> > > I use:
>> > >
>> > > Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau,
>> > > "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft
>> > > draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
>> >
>> > Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>> >
>> > {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progress,
>> > {date:%B %Y}.
>> >
>> > Make this the default?
>> >
>> > Lars
>> >
>> 
> 

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Aug 30 12:13:54 2012
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Cc: Paul Hoffman , Tools Team Discussion , RFC Editor 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why does the Datatracker take so long to notice new RFCs?
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Hi,

Expanding on Alice's statement below regarding an upcoming enhancement to
the IETF datatracker:

On 2012-08-30 18:15 Alice Russo said the following:

> Btw, I think one goal of the upcoming implementation of extensions
> for datatracker / IANA / RFC Editor interaction (specified in RFC
> 6359) is to eliminate the typical delay -- or come close.

Yes.  There's a project which is nearing completion where we're working
towards having state updates from both the RFC-Editor and IANA to the IETF
datatracker, (and vice versa, eventually), work by providing a method which
lets the originator of a state change push a notification (by using a HTTP
POST to a well-known URL) as soon as there's a state change to fetch.

This will let us exchange timely state change updates, and will still let us
fall back to cron-based polling if the notifications fail.

I believe the project should be ready for deployment within a few weeks,
for notifications from the RFC-Editor and IANA to the IETF, with the other
direction coming somewhat later.  There may be some initial tuning needed,
but we should nevertheless be in a much better place fairly soon.


Best regards,

	Henrik


From gwz@net-zen.net  Thu Aug 30 19:43:47 2012
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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On 08/30/2012 09:16 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. From the boilerplate text:
>>
>>    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>>    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012, draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>>
>> I use:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau, "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>
> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}.
>
> Make this the default?

If we're talking about defaults, I would prefer this:

{authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}," {docname}, Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}.

I would prefer that the citation of an I-D be as similar to that of an 
RFC as possible; the  document name will always contain the string 
"draft-", so "Internet-Draft" seems redundant.  Also, it seems to me 
that if we really want to enforce this kind of thing, shouldn't we be 
talking to whoever maintains the citation libraries used by xml2rfc?

...

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 00:52:59 2012
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [RSAG] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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On 30/08/2012 19:55, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

> ...Of course such an article would be
> the PERFECT place in which to elaborate on the dangers of, or 
> appropriateness of including I-D citations in any place (perhaps
> I should use the Parliamentary "in another place" here, especially
> to amuse Brian :-)

Be careful. I am currently in Cambridge, England, where "another place"
or "the other place" refers to an obscure university on the river Isis,
at a spot where oxen used to wade across.

That said, my personal opinion is that pragmatism should rule - people
*will* cite I-Ds, for whatever reason, and if someone cites, say,
draft-odell-8+8-00.txt as "work in progress" it's manifest nonsense,
whereas citing it as "working draft" is historically accurate.

All the same, until there is a community consensus to change,
"work in progress" is clearly the default.

    Brian



From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 08:21:44 2012
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Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:21:41 +0200
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From: Abdussalam Baryun 
To: "Eggert, Lars" 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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Hi Lars,

thanks, I was looking for a way to trace the IETF documents, but not
only by name, number, date, ..etc. Is it possible to find the
depending on status as: update, obsolete, historical, informational,
standard,  etc.

AB

On 8/30/12, Eggert, Lars  wrote:
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 17:53, "Eggert, Lars"  wrote:
>> one suggestion: I-Ds must be cited as "Work in Progress" only. From the
>> boilerplate text:
>>
>>   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>>   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>>   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> I typically do it like this. Instead of:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau,
>> "Interface to the Routing System Framework," July 2012,
>> draft-ward-irs-framework-00.
>>
>> I use:
>>
>> Alia Atlas, Cisco Systems, Dave Ward, Juniper Networks, and Thomas Nadeau,
>> "Interface to the Routing System Framework," Internet-Draft
>> draft-ward-irs-framework-00, Work in Progress, July 2012.
>
> Using this string in the "Citation output template for drafts" field on
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ does this:
>
> {authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," Internet-Draft {docname}, Work in Progress,
> {date:%B %Y}.
>
> Make this the default?
>
> Lars

From arusso@amsl.com  Fri Aug 31 11:08:53 2012
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My 2 cents on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ below. Please note =
that I'm speaking for myself, not on behalf of the RFC Production Center =
or RFC Editor.

As Ole points out, this tool was originally created for creating =
reference entries for a specific publication in mind, which is not the =
RFC series.  I'm hoping to clarify the intended use of the tool (I-D =
authors?) and avoid making this topic more confusing for an I-D author.  =
And, for the small number of authors who have an I-D approved for =
publication as an RFC, I'm hoping to avoid "I used the citation tool - =
why was this changed?"

The citation libraries that some I-D authors use and that yield entries =
in the form used in RFCs =
(http://www.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc-ref.txt) are:
- when using xml2rfc: the XML citation library =
(http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/ or bibxml3/)
- when using NroffEdit: the built-in reference feature (which relies on =
rfc-ref.txt)

Regarding RFCs:  Is the tool's default intended for use by I-D authors?  =
If so, this change would make it match the ones mentioned above:

Current default for "Citation output template for RFCs":
{authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}," {docname}, {date:%B %Y}.

New (comma moved outside quotes):
{authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", {docname}, {date:%B %Y}.

Example:
Polk, J., Rosen, B., and J. Peterson, "Location Conveyance for the =
Session Initiation Protocol", RFC 6442, December 2011.

Regarding Internet-Drafts (a recurring topic, as mentioned):  IMHO, =
without a decision by the RFC Series Editor to adopt the recommendations =
of the citations committee =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01), the =
following (B&C) remain in practice. If the tool's default is intended =
for I-D authors, is there any desire for A&B to match?

A) Current default for "Citation output template for drafts":
{authors.andlist}, "{doctitle}," {date:%B %Y}, {docname}.

B) What is submitted in an I-D where the author used the xml2rfc =
citation library:
{authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", {docname} (work in progress), {date:%B =
%Y}.

C) What actually goes in an RFC:
{authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", Work in Progress, {date:%B %Y}.


Thanks,
Alice
(again: only speaking for myself)=

From klensin@jck.com  Fri Aug 31 11:41:44 2012
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From: John C Klensin 
To: Alice Russo , Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Rsoc] RFC and I-D Citation Tool
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--On Friday, August 31, 2012 14:08 -0400 Alice Russo
 wrote:

> My 2 cents on http://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ below.
> Please note that I'm speaking for myself, not on behalf of the
> RFC Production Center or RFC Editor.
> 
> As Ole points out, this tool was originally created for
> creating reference entries for a specific publication in mind,
> which is not the RFC series.  I'm hoping to clarify the
>...
> C) What actually goes in an RFC:
> {authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", Work in Progress, {date:%B
> %Y}.

Alice, with the understanding that, while I'd welcome your
comments, this is really a question for the RSE (and the "Style
Manual" project in particular), has the above really been
established as the standard for the RFC Series now?  I don't
have time to go back and look for examples, but I've got clear
memories of times when the RFC Editor insisted that "cited only
as 'work in progress'" excluded even the date, leaving a
reference of 

    authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", Work in Progress

best,
   john


From arusso@amsl.com  Fri Aug 31 13:37:28 2012
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On Aug 31, 2012, at 2:41 PM, John C Klensin wrote:

> --On Friday, August 31, 2012 14:08 -0400 Alice Russo
>  wrote:
>=20
>> C) What actually goes in an RFC:
>> {authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", Work in Progress, {date:%B
>> %Y}.
>=20
> Alice, with the understanding that, while I'd welcome your
> comments, this is really a question for the RSE (and the "Style
> Manual" project in particular), has the above really been
> established as the standard for the RFC Series now? =20

Hi John,

Simply put (without addressing RSE-ish topics of "established" or =
"standard", especially in terms of application of the style guide =
past/present/future), it's been in practice for over 4 years and is =
documented in http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/rfc-style as:

              [doe13] Doe, J., "The Deployment of IPv6",
                      Work in Progress, May 2013.


> I don't
> have time to go back and look for examples, but I've got clear
> memories of times when the RFC Editor insisted that "cited only
> as 'work in progress'" excluded even the date, leaving a
> reference of=20
>=20
>    authors.rfclist}, "{doctitle}", Work in Progress

The last instances I see are a handful in the RFC 5000s, ending with RFC =
5164 (March 2008). AFAICT, it was used more commonly in RFCs published =
in 2007 and earlier.

Thanks,
Alice=