From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Tue Jul  2 10:22:03 2013
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 18:21:52 +0100
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] I-D submission tool
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Hello tools people,

Is there a filter on who can post a new revision of an I-D?

Can an AD post an I-D without being an author?
Can a new author add herself to an I-D and post a new revision?

Many thanks,
Adrian


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 10:32:05 2013
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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 10:32:03 -0700
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] I-D submission tool
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On 2 July 2013 10:21, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
> Can a new author add herself to an I-D and post a new revision?

I have done this myself, yes.  (And yes, it was legitimate, not an attack.)

It's a security vulnerability: anyone with an email address and 5
minutes can provide a new version of any draft.

The automatic process permits anyone who appears as an author in the
draft to post, as long as they are able to receive email at the
identified address.    As far as I am aware, the only restrictions are
that it pass idnits and increment the number by one.  There are no
author-continuity conditions or anything like that, from what I've
seen.  draft-ietf-* drafts don't appear to have any special
protection, with the exception of new (-00) drafts, which require
chair approval.

Manual posting might be possible (the AD posting without being an
author), but the secretariat probably see those.

--Martin

p.s., Refraining from doing this has taken some willpower.  I know a
few drafts that could use some "improvement".

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Jul  2 10:55:07 2013
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Hi Adrian,

On 2013-07-02 19:21 Adrian Farrel said the following:
> Hello tools people,
> 
> Is there a filter on who can post a new revision of an I-D?

Yes.

> Can an AD post an I-D without being an author?

Anybody can upload a draft, but (for non-00 drafts) only the authors
of the previous version (and the wg chairs for wg documents) will get
the verification emails, and be able to confirm the posting.

The spec (RFC 4228) says the following, but the /c group of requirements
have not been uniformly implemented:

   The following possible expected submitters are identified by the
   Toolset, without any Secretariat intervention:

      For version 00 of a draft, any submitter (R119/a).
      For version N+1 of a draft, an author of version N of the same
      draft (R120/a).  This requirement only needs to be satisfied for
      drafts for which Nth version was posted using the Toolset; other
      drafts may not have the meta-information available that is
      required to reliably get a list of authors.
      For a WGN draft, a Chair of the corresponding WG (R121/b).
      For any draft, an IESG member (R122/c).

> Can a new author add herself to an I-D and post a new revision?

She can upload, but one of the current authors will have to confirm the
posting.  The secretariat can always expedite a new posting, however.

There's a recent bug filed on the fact that when somebody tries to
add themselves and post, there's no message about the confirmation emails
only going to the authors of the previous version -- there should be,
and I'll try to get that addressed during next week.


Best regards,

	Henrik

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Jul  2 10:59:15 2013
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Hi Martin,

On 2013-07-02 19:32 Martin Thomson said the following:
> On 2 July 2013 10:21, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>> Can a new author add herself to an I-D and post a new revision?
> 
> I have done this myself, yes.  (And yes, it was legitimate, not an attack.)
> 
> It's a security vulnerability: anyone with an email address and 5
> minutes can provide a new version of any draft.

This was indeed the case until the deployment of version 4.44, around
2013-04-16.  It is not the case any more. The commit which changed this
was 5650:

  http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/changeset/5650/trunk

Best regards,

	Henrik

> The automatic process permits anyone who appears as an author in the
> draft to post, as long as they are able to receive email at the
> identified address.    As far as I am aware, the only restrictions are
> that it pass idnits and increment the number by one.  There are no
> author-continuity conditions or anything like that, from what I've
> seen.  draft-ietf-* drafts don't appear to have any special
> protection, with the exception of new (-00) drafts, which require
> chair approval.
> 
> Manual posting might be possible (the AD posting without being an
> author), but the secretariat probably see those.
> 
> --Martin
> 
> p.s., Refraining from doing this has taken some willpower.  I know a
> few drafts that could use some "improvement".
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 11:09:29 2013
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On 2 July 2013 10:58, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> wrote:
> This was indeed the case until the deployment of version 4.44, around
> 2013-04-16.  It is not the case any more. The commit which changed this
> was 5650:

Oh well, I'm disappointed that I wont be able to exploit that any more.

What you have is a pragmatic solution.  I'm glad that you're improving
transparency, but that's secondary.

From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Tue Jul  2 13:17:51 2013
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 21:17:36 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] I-D submission tool
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Thanks, that's clear.

I suspect it was the same I-D as caused the recent bug report, but I (as an AD)
tried to post and similarly did not get any warning that I would not see a
confirmation email, nor did I get a confirmation email.

A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com]
> Sent: 02 July 2013 18:55
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org; iesg@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] I-D submission tool
> 
> Hi Adrian,
> 
> On 2013-07-02 19:21 Adrian Farrel said the following:
> > Hello tools people,
> >
> > Is there a filter on who can post a new revision of an I-D?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Can an AD post an I-D without being an author?
> 
> Anybody can upload a draft, but (for non-00 drafts) only the authors
> of the previous version (and the wg chairs for wg documents) will get
> the verification emails, and be able to confirm the posting.
> 
> The spec (RFC 4228) says the following, but the /c group of requirements
> have not been uniformly implemented:
> 
>    The following possible expected submitters are identified by the
>    Toolset, without any Secretariat intervention:
> 
>       For version 00 of a draft, any submitter (R119/a).
>       For version N+1 of a draft, an author of version N of the same
>       draft (R120/a).  This requirement only needs to be satisfied for
>       drafts for which Nth version was posted using the Toolset; other
>       drafts may not have the meta-information available that is
>       required to reliably get a list of authors.
>       For a WGN draft, a Chair of the corresponding WG (R121/b).
>       For any draft, an IESG member (R122/c).
> 
> > Can a new author add herself to an I-D and post a new revision?
> 
> She can upload, but one of the current authors will have to confirm the
> posting.  The secretariat can always expedite a new posting, however.
> 
> There's a recent bug filed on the fact that when somebody tries to
> add themselves and post, there's no message about the confirmation emails
> only going to the authors of the previous version -- there should be,
> and I'll try to get that addressed during next week.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Henrik


From derhoermi@gmx.net  Fri Jul  5 08:23:06 2013
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From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Missing link to -02 version of I-D on -01 page
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Hi,

  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpauth-digest-update-01 does
not link http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpauth-digest-update-02
at the top in the "Versions:" list.

regards,
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

From yaronf.ietf@gmail.com  Sat Jul  6 04:46:01 2013
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Agenda and time zone
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<html style="direction: ltr;">
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    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    I'm trying to import the ICS file (either from the tools' agenda
    page or the UTC page) into Thunderbird (Lightning on Linux), and
    everything is offset by 1 hour. I'm not familiar with the ICS
    format, but it looks fine with a "Europe/Berlin" time zone. So is it
    just me?<br>
    <br>
    Also, IIRC there used to be a calendar we could subscribe to, so
    that it's updated automatically if there are any late changes. Am I
    imagining stuff again?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<br>
    <br>
  </body>
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From yaronf.ietf@gmail.com  Sat Jul  6 05:39:06 2013
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Please ignore my previous mail, everything works perfectly (except for 
some of the users).

Thanks,
	Yaron

On 2013-07-06 14:44, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to import the ICS file (either from the tools' agenda page or
> the UTC page) into Thunderbird (Lightning on Linux), and everything is
> offset by 1 hour. I'm not familiar with the ICS format, but it looks
> fine with a "Europe/Berlin" time zone. So is it just me?
>
> Also, IIRC there used to be a calendar we could subscribe to, so that
> it's updated automatically if there are any late changes. Am I imagining
> stuff again?
>
> Thanks,
>      Yaron
>

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Sun Jul  7 04:23:12 2013
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Hi Yaron,

On 2013-07-06 14:39 Yaron Sheffer said the following:
> Please ignore my previous mail, everything works perfectly (except for 
> some of the users).

I just got around to checking my email stack, and was about to look at
this problem -- glad to hear that it wasn't a problem :-)


Best regards,

	Henrik

> Thanks,
> 	Yaron
> 
> On 2013-07-06 14:44, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm trying to import the ICS file (either from the tools' agenda page or
>> the UTC page) into Thunderbird (Lightning on Linux), and everything is
>> offset by 1 hour. I'm not familiar with the ICS format, but it looks
>> fine with a "Europe/Berlin" time zone. So is it just me?
>>
>> Also, IIRC there used to be a calendar we could subscribe to, so that
>> it's updated automatically if there are any late changes. Am I imagining
>> stuff again?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>      Yaron
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Sun Jul  7 04:34:03 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Missing link to -02 version of I-D on -01 page
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Hi Björn,

On 2013-07-05 17:23 Bjoern Hoehrmann said the following:
> Hi,
> 
>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpauth-digest-update-01 does
> not link http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpauth-digest-update-02
> at the top in the "Versions:" list.

Thanks for the alert!  Should be fixed now.


Best regards,

	Henrik

From yaronf.ietf@gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 04:12:44 2013
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:12:39 +0300
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] IPR links
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Hi,

RFC 5996 obsoletes RFC 4306 (IKEv2). Basically it is a restatement of 
the protocol, with a tiny number of real changes.

But the relevant IPR statements (all made against 4306 but obviously 
applying to the update) are linked from the top of 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4306 and not from 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5996. Is there anything that can be done 
about it, specifically for this case or in general?

Thanks,
     Yaron

From arusso@amsl.com  Thu Jul 11 10:29:02 2013
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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Edu team & Tools team,

Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the "Tools =
for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated slides are here:=20
  http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf

The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document creation: =
xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include listing lyx2rfc and =
pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the creators of those tools for =
providing input.

Thanks,
Alice=

From elwynd@dial.pipex.com  Thu Jul 11 11:30:28 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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Hi, Alice.

As you may remember I am mainly an xml2rfc man... :-)

But I have had to get up to speed with NroffEdit in the last couple of
weeks and have discovered a couple of minor 'gotchas' that might be
worth pointing out as they aren't on the web site (yet):
- It works just fine on Linux BUT ONLY if the jar is started in the
NroffEdit installation directory.  If starting from a Gnome menu you
need to create a script that makes the current directory right before
issuing "java -jar NroffEdit.jar". If not, 
(1) it runs like a superannuated tortoise, and
(2) the spellchecker doesn't work.
- On all platforms you need to periodically download the most recent RFC
bibliography file for use with the 'Managed References' - There's a menu
option at File->Check for Updates that does this (you mention this but
its worth emphasizing that you need to do it as soon as you install and
then periodically if you are using recent RFCs).  I *think* but am not
absolutely sure that you need to restart NroffEdit after downloading.


As regards Bill Fenner's xml2rfc-xxe add-on, there is a problem with
licensing of the current XMLmind editor personal edition - it is no
longer free (and I am not clear if the add-on works with it anyway - I
thought I tried out the most recent version a while back and couldn't
get it to work).  However, I am happily using version 4.6.1 of the
editor which seems to work just fine still and was distributed for free.
If anybody is desperate to use this I have a copy of the installation
zip here...  Personally I'd be lost without it.  It makes doing xml2rfc
really easy, and I couldn't find the old version on the XMLmind website.

A couple of minor points on xml2rfc that might be worth noting as people
get them wrong quite often:
- <list> must be inside <t> - and this applies recursively thus:
   <section>
      <t>
        Text absmasd
        <list>
          <t>
          List item
          </t>
          <t>
          Another list item
             <list>
                <t>
                  Inner list item
                  etc...
                </t>
             </list>
          </t>
        </list>
      </t>
    </section>
- <figure> must be outside <t> thus:
    <section>
      <t>
      </t>
      <figure>
      </figure>
      <t>
      </t>
    </section>
(Note: xml2rfc-xxe has am automated reminder and fix for the list case -
used it yesterday! - hadn't seen it before. Nice!  Thanks Bill.)

Might be worth mentioning 'Magic Incantations:
- <?rfc needLines="23" ?>, and
- the use of <vspace="0"/> and <vspace="1"/> especially in lists 
if there is time.

/Elwyn
 


On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 13:28 -0400, Alice Russo wrote:
> Edu team & Tools team,
> 
> Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated slides are here: 
>   http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf
> 
> The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document creation: xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include listing lyx2rfc and pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the creators of those tools for providing input.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alice
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Jul 11 12:25:29 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:

> Edu team & Tools team,
>=20
> Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the "Tools =
for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated slides are here:=20
>  http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf
>=20
> The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document creation: =
xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include listing lyx2rfc and =
pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the creators of those tools for =
providing input.

This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff teaching =
this class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that y'all have =
volunteered to do it (and have done it for years), it still might be =
giving the wrong signals.

Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line =
being crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and =
it should be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to =
get something to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create =
I-Ds that might never become RFCs".

Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just cobble an =
I-D together with any old text editor as long as it follows these =
rules", but that is definitely allowed for submission of drafts in the =
IETF Stream.

Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably be a =
much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.

--Paul Hoffman=

From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 12:38:55 2013
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From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Cc: Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com>, EDU Team <edu-team@ietf.org>, Tools Team Discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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Paul,

On Jul 11, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =
wrote:

> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Edu team & Tools team,
>>=20
>> Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the =
"Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated slides are =
here:=20
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf
>>=20
>> The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document creation: =
xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include listing lyx2rfc and =
pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the creators of those tools for =
providing input.
>=20
> This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff teaching =
this class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that y'all have =
volunteered to do it (and have done it for years), it still might be =
giving the wrong signals.


I don't see any issue with someone from the RFC editor staff teaching a =
tutorial on I-Ds.  I think the main criteria for someone teaching this =
tutorial is that they have a good understanding of the material.  I also =
note that IDs are used by all of the streams so this isn't specific to =
the IETF stream.  I don't see any policy issue here.

Bob

>=20
> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line =
being crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and =
it should be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to =
get something to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create =
I-Ds that might never become RFCs".
>=20
> Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just cobble =
an I-D together with any old text editor as long as it follows these =
rules", but that is definitely allowed for submission of drafts in the =
IETF Stream.
>=20
> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably be =
a much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote=
:
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:
> This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff teaching th=
is class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that y'all have volunteere=
d to do it (and have done it for years), it still might be giving the wrong=
 signals.

It's an IETF meeting, yes, not an RFC-Editor-and-customers meeting.
But there's no such thing as the latter, and this is the closest it
gets.  Ditto IANA.  People who have no IETF business but want to
physically meet either the RFC-Editor or the IANA basically have to
attend an IETF meeting (and they probably don't even need to pay
attendance fees, if they'd not be attending any IETF WG, BoF, plenary,
or other meetings).

> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line bei=
ng crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and it shou=
ld be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to get somet=
hing to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create I-Ds that might=
 never become RFCs".

Sorry, what policy might that be?  The RFC-editor held a meeting at
Atlanta on updating its RFC formatting and such.  If that was OK (and
I recall you were in the room, and I don't recall you objecting to the
meeting), why wouldn't a class given by the RFC-Editor be OK?

> Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just cobble an =
I-D together with any old text editor as long as it follows these rules", b=
ut that is definitely allowed for submission of drafts in the IETF Stream.

The individual submission track (and, really, all the streams) should
be mentioned, I agree.

> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably be a =
much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.

Can you expand as to why that would be so?

I happen to think that the RFC-Editor staff -- who deal on a daily
basis with both, Internet-Drafts (e.g., as they arrive on their
queues) and RFC formatting, and who consume a variety of input formats
and use a variety of tools while doing providing their editing
function -- should logically be the best first choice for giving such
a class (individual members of the staff might not be, but logically
they all should be).  Others outside the RFC-Editor staff might make
great second and third choices for for giving such a class, and I
would not object to them doing so.

Nico
--

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Jul 11 13:02:31 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On Jul 11, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> =
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> =
wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:
>> This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff =
teaching this class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that y'all =
have volunteered to do it (and have done it for years), it still might =
be giving the wrong signals.
>=20
> It's an IETF meeting, yes, not an RFC-Editor-and-customers meeting.
> But there's no such thing as the latter, and this is the closest it
> gets.  Ditto IANA.  People who have no IETF business but want to
> physically meet either the RFC-Editor or the IANA basically have to
> attend an IETF meeting (and they probably don't even need to pay
> attendance fees, if they'd not be attending any IETF WG, BoF, plenary,
> or other meetings).

Quite true. If the topic of the tutorial was "how to do final =
preparation on an Internet Draft that is ready to go to the RFC Editor", =
that would be just fine. But Alice clearly didn't say that. (And that's =
good, because such a tutorial is probably not at all needed.)

>> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line =
being crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and =
it should be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to =
get something to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create =
I-Ds that might never become RFCs".
>=20
> Sorry, what policy might that be? =20

That Internet Drafts exist in the IETF to foster discussion, not to =
necessarily become RFCs.

> The RFC-editor held a meeting at
> Atlanta on updating its RFC formatting and such.  If that was OK (and
> I recall you were in the room, and I don't recall you objecting to the
> meeting), why wouldn't a class given by the RFC-Editor be OK?

The purpose of the rfcform BoF was for the RFC Editor to receive input =
from the community; the purpose of these tutorials is to give =
information to people new to preparing Internet Drafts. Certainly you =
can see a difference there, yes?


>> Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just cobble =
an I-D together with any old text editor as long as it follows these =
rules", but that is definitely allowed for submission of drafts in the =
IETF Stream.
>=20
> The individual submission track (and, really, all the streams) should
> be mentioned, I agree.

Note that the class is not at all about tracks: it's about tools.

>> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably =
be a much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.
>=20
> Can you expand as to why that would be so?

See above.=20

> I happen to think that the RFC-Editor staff -- who deal on a daily
> basis with both, Internet-Drafts (e.g., as they arrive on their
> queues) and RFC formatting, and who consume a variety of input formats
> and use a variety of tools while doing providing their editing
> function -- should logically be the best first choice for giving such
> a class (individual members of the staff might not be, but logically
> they all should be).  Others outside the RFC-Editor staff might make
> great second and third choices for for giving such a class, and I
> would not object to them doing so.

The RFC Staff are supposed to consume Internet Drafts in any agreed-to =
format, even if the authors didn't use a tool. The RSE is supposed to be =
formalizing the input formats to the RFC Editor, but hasn't done that =
(and earlier RFC Editors were told not to try, but to allow XML).

Clearly, we want the RFC Editor to get Internet Drafts in a format that =
will make their process the most accurate and, following that, easiest. =
But the way to do that is by having the input formats stated by the RSE =
and the Streams, not by having classes about tools that may or may not =
emit the long term input format.

--Paul Hoffman=

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Jul 11 13:03:58 2013
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On 2013-07-11 21:38 Bob Hinden said the following:
> Paul,
> 
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Edu team & Tools team,
>>> 
>>> Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the
>>> "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated
>>> slides are here: 
>>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf
>>> 
>>> The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document
>>> creation: xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include
>>> listing lyx2rfc and pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the
>>> creators of those tools for providing input.
>> 
>> This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff
>> teaching this class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that
>> y'all have volunteered to do it (and have done it for years), it
>> still might be giving the wrong signals.
> 
> 
> I don't see any issue with someone from the RFC editor staff teaching
> a tutorial on I-Ds.  I think the main criteria for someone teaching
> this tutorial is that they have a good understanding of the material.
> I also note that IDs are used by all of the streams so this isn't
> specific to the IETF stream.  I don't see any policy issue here.

Well said.  I agree.

	Henrik


> Bob
> 
>> 
>> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy
>> line being crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching
>> it, and it should be taught not in light of "here are the tools
>> that you need to get something to the RFC Editor" but "here's what
>> you need to create I-Ds that might never become RFCs".
>> 
>> Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just
>> cobble an I-D together with any old text editor as long as it
>> follows these rules", but that is definitely allowed for submission
>> of drafts in the IETF Stream.
>> 
>> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably
>> be a much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.
>> 
>> --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ 
>> Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing
> list Tools-discuss@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From nico@cryptonector.com  Thu Jul 11 13:31:37 2013
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Cc: EDU Team <edu-team@ietf.org>, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com>, Tools Team Discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote=
:
> Quite true. If the topic of the tutorial was "how to do final preparation=
 on an Internet Draft that is ready to go to the RFC Editor", that would be=
 just fine. But Alice clearly didn't say that. (And that's good, because su=
ch a tutorial is probably not at all needed.)

See below.

>>> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line b=
eing crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and it sh=
ould be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to get som=
ething to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create I-Ds that mig=
ht never become RFCs".
>>
>> Sorry, what policy might that be?
>
> That Internet Drafts exist in the IETF to foster discussion, not to neces=
sarily become RFCs.

Response #1: Er, the same is true of RFCs.  Requests for Comments.  If
Alice were talking only about formatting STDs then you'd have a bit of
a case.

Response #2: That's nice, but we do also produce work that is
submitted to the RFC-Editor queue.  And it just oh-so happens to be
the case that currently we use roughly the same input formats for both
purposes: formatting I-Ds for discussion and and RFCs, and,
critically, the RFC-Editor accepts I-D input formats.  This makes
Alice's tutorial of extreme interest to the IETF community.  If that's
not sufficient to convince you then nothing else can.

>> The RFC-editor held a meeting at
>> Atlanta on updating its RFC formatting and such.  If that was OK (and
>> I recall you were in the room, and I don't recall you objecting to the
>> meeting), why wouldn't a class given by the RFC-Editor be OK?
>
> The purpose of the rfcform BoF was for the RFC Editor to receive input fr=
om the community; the purpose of these tutorials is to give information to =
people new to preparing Internet Drafts. Certainly you can see a difference=
 there, yes?

We also got input from the RFC-Editor.  That road went both ways.

> Note that the class is not at all about tracks: it's about tools.

Which... we need.  And which we want newbies to know about and, if
those tools are useful to them (they should be), use them.

>>> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably be =
a much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.
>>
>> Can you expand as to why that would be so?
>
> See above.

I saw nothing convincing.

> Clearly, we want the RFC Editor to get Internet Drafts in a format that w=
ill make their process the most accurate and, following that, easiest. But =
the way to do that is by having the input formats stated by the RSE and the=
 Streams, not by having classes about tools that may or may not emit the lo=
ng term input format.

<sarc>
Why, they shouldn't even come to our meetings.  Ditto IANA.  Who needs
to hear from them?!  They'll be sucking invaluable time and energy.
Sort of like this thread.
</sarc>

Have the last word please.

Nico
--

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 13:44:59 2013
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Cc: EDU Team <edu-team@ietf.org>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, Tools Team Discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [edu-team] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On 12/07/2013 08:03, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
> On 2013-07-11 21:38 Bob Hinden said the following:

...
>> I don't see any issue with someone from the RFC editor staff teaching
>> a tutorial on I-Ds.  I think the main criteria for someone teaching
>> this tutorial is that they have a good understanding of the material.
>> I also note that IDs are used by all of the streams so this isn't
>> specific to the IETF stream.  I don't see any policy issue here.
> 
> Well said.  I agree.

I agree too. It is of course important that people understand the streams
and their purpose, but the tools to produce a throw-away I-D that never
advances are the same ones used for an I-D that becomes, say, an IRTF-stream
RFC, or perhaps RFC1796bis.

   Brian

From rse@rfc-editor.org  Fri Jul 12 08:46:36 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial at IETF 87
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On 7/11/13 12:25 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Alice Russo <arusso@amsl.com> wrote:
> 
>> Edu team & Tools team,
>>
>> Please drop me a line if you have suggestions for improving the "Tools for Creating I-Ds" tutorial for IETF 87. The updated slides are here: 
>>  http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/tools_87.pdf
>>
>> The focus is on the most commonly used tools for document creation: xml2rfc and NroffEdit. Additions for IETF 87 include listing lyx2rfc and pandoc2rfc among the options. Thanks to the creators of those tools for providing input.
> 
> This may seem like a wrench, but: Why is the RFC Editor staff teaching this class at an IETF meeting? While we appreciate that y'all have volunteered to do it (and have done it for years), it still might be giving the wrong signals.
> 

Arguably, the RFC Editor has more experience with these tools than most;
we certainly see a wider variety of what mistakes people make with these
tools!  On top of that, we have a great deal of experience in staying
polite and professional and helping people whose skills are in a
different area.  As such, we're probably most qualified to teach this
particular workshop.

> Having this taught by RFC Editor staff feels to me like a policy line being crossed. Someone from the IETF Stream should be teaching it, and it should be taught not in light of "here are the tools that you need to get something to the RFC Editor" but "here's what you need to create I-Ds that might never become RFCs".
> 

As others suggested, I don't think this is a policy line at all.  For
what its worth, I know there will be people attending this workshop
purely to learn how to submit I-D to the ISE.  This particular session
is not really just for the IETF, and there is a long history of other
streams meeting as part of the IETF meeting.

> Case in point: I doubt that you teach much about "you can just cobble an I-D together with any old text editor as long as it follows these rules", but that is definitely allowed for submission of drafts in the IETF Stream.
> 

Well, we will always accept plain text submissions, but I don't think we
need to teach people how to use vi or emacs at this point.  xml2rfc,
however, is a bit more tricky.

> Someone more closely affiliated with the IETF Stream would probably be a much more appropriate teacher and organizer of this.
> 
> 

I understand the point you are making and I am glad you raised the
question, but I think the current model is working and does not
introduce additional confusion.

-Heather


From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Mon Jul 15 07:34:43 2013
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Serving Django files staticly?
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Greetings. I have no idea if the IETF Django instance is using this or =
not, but I just saw it and thought it might be of interest.

http://kennethreitz.org/introducing-dj-static/

--Paul Hoffman=

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Mon Jul 15 08:08:06 2013
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Hi Paul,

On 2013-07-15 16:34 Paul Hoffman said the following:
> Greetings. I have no idea if the IETF Django instance is using this
> or not, but I just saw it and thought it might be of interest.
> 
> http://kennethreitz.org/introducing-dj-static/

Thanks.  That's interesting, and might be useful if we in the future move
to serving the datatracker directly from a wsgi server; with the current
setup, Apache is serving the static datatracker content directly, rather
than going through django, so performance is OK.

I get the impression that more and more people are deploying Django apps
through lightweight wsgi servers, rather than through (the initially more
cumbersome) Apache setup; I suspect that this app has been triggered by
that use case.


Best regards,

	Henrik


From stig@venaas.com  Mon Jul 15 13:23:11 2013
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Managing WG scheduling conflict lists
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Hi

Pretty much every IETF once the agenda is posted, someone complains
that my WG clashes with something else and I promise to list that as
a conflict next time I request a WG slot. The problem though is that
by the time I request the slot, I've forgotten about this. I copy the
previous list, and try to see if I should add anything, but sometimes
I end up not adding the conflict I should have.

It would be cool if it was possible to maintain the conflict list by
using the scheduling tool between the meetings. That means that I at
any time can log on and update the list. When I do schedule a meeting,
I can then use the last saved conflict list.

What do you think? Are others have the same problem?

Stig

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From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Jul 16 08:11:27 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] tools.ietf.org: broken WG agenda pages for meetings > 82
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Hi Thomas,

On 2013-07-16 16:27 thomas.morin@orange.com said the following:
> Hello,
> 
> I just noticed that, at least for the WG I tested, no WG agenda is 
> proposed for meetings after IETF82 on WG pages of tools.ietf.org.

Hmm. Right.  There was a change in agenda file naming which it seems one of
my more recent changes has caused to be sorted incorrectly.  

> For example, http://tools.ietf.org/wg/l3vpn/agenda , does not propose 
> links to meeting after IETF 82, and if I do forge one I get a "Sorry, no 
> agenda available as of today. Either no meeting was held, or the 
> document has not yet been submitted." message.

Actually, the pages were there, but sorted at the start of the list,
before 'agenda-59', etc., and named differently.

I think I've fixed this now, though -- should propagate out to all the
servers within an hour or so.

Thanks for the alert!


Best regards,

	Henrik

From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Tue Jul 16 17:58:03 2013
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From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Dear IETF Tools experts,

It was suggested that the proposal for announcement improvement (see 
below) be sent to you.

Regards,   Martin.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #57811] Announcement improvement (was: Re: 
Last Call: RFC 2050 to historic)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:31:16 -0700
From: Cindy Morgan via RT <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Reply-To: iesg-secretary@ietf.org
To: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

Hi Martin,

May I suggest that you re-send you message to the tools-discuss@ietf.org
email list (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss)?  That
is the place to take discussions relating to IETF tools (such as these
datatracker-generated announcements).

Best regards,
Cindy


On Tue Jul 16 02:32:21 2013, duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp wrote:
> For the benefits of those (few and far between) IETF participants that
> haven't memorized all RFC numbers, it would be great if announcement
> such as the one below would contain a tiny bit more information about
> the document itself.
>
> E.g. just having the title of the document in announcement would make it
> a lot easier to decide whether this warrants further attention or not,
> without additional lookup.
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
> On 2013/07/11 6:39, The IESG wrote:
> >
> > The IESG has received a request from an individual participant to make
> > the following status changes:
> >
> > - RFC2050 from Best Current Practice to Historic
> >
> > The supporting document for this request can be found here:
> >
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-2050-to-historic/
> >
> > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> > final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2013-08-07. Exceptionally, comments
may be
> > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
> > beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
> >
> > The affected document can be obtained via
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2050/
> >
> > IESG discussion of this request can be tracked via
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-2050-to-historic/ballot/
> >
> >
> >
>





From rjsparks@nostrum.com  Tue Jul 16 19:38:36 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Announcement improvement (was: Re: Last Call: RFC 2050 to historic)
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HI Martin -

I'll enter this as a ticket. Hopefully we can make an improvement at the 
sprint before Berlin.

RjS

On 7/16/13 7:57 PM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote:
> Dear IETF Tools experts,
>
> It was suggested that the proposal for announcement improvement (see 
> below) be sent to you.
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #57811] Announcement improvement (was: Re: 
> Last Call: RFC 2050 to historic)
> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:31:16 -0700
> From: Cindy Morgan via RT <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
> Reply-To: iesg-secretary@ietf.org
> To: duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> May I suggest that you re-send you message to the tools-discuss@ietf.org
> email list (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss)? That
> is the place to take discussions relating to IETF tools (such as these
> datatracker-generated announcements).
>
> Best regards,
> Cindy
>
>
> On Tue Jul 16 02:32:21 2013, duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp wrote:
>> For the benefits of those (few and far between) IETF participants that
>> haven't memorized all RFC numbers, it would be great if announcement
>> such as the one below would contain a tiny bit more information about
>> the document itself.
>>
>> E.g. just having the title of the document in announcement would make it
>> a lot easier to decide whether this warrants further attention or not,
>> without additional lookup.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Regards,   Martin.
>>
>> On 2013/07/11 6:39, The IESG wrote:
>> >
>> > The IESG has received a request from an individual participant to make
>> > the following status changes:
>> >
>> > - RFC2050 from Best Current Practice to Historic
>> >
>> > The supporting document for this request can be found here:
>> >
>> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-2050-to-historic/
>> >
>> > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
>> > final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
>> > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2013-08-07. Exceptionally, comments
> may be
>> > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
>> > beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>> >
>> > The affected document can be obtained via
>> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2050/
>> >
>> > IESG discussion of this request can be tracked via
>> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-2050-to-historic/ballot/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Jul 17 00:18:46 2013
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Hi,

Is there something wrong with http://tools.ietf.org/draft/aliases, which 
stops with:

draft-aboba-dhc-mini.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.authors: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
draft-a

Regards, Benoit



From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Jul 17 02:39:39 2013
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Hi Benoit,

On 2013-07-17 09:18 Benoit Claise said the following:
> Hi,
> 
> Is there something wrong with http://tools.ietf.org/draft/aliases, which 
> stops with:
> 
> draft-aboba-dhc-mini.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.authors: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
> draft-a

Huh! Yes, that seems to have been a truncated file.  Fortunately it wasn't
on the server which is the primary mail handler.  I've fixed it now.

Thanks for the alert!


Best regards,

	Henrik

From bclaise@cisco.com  Wed Jul 17 03:04:20 2013
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Hi Henrik,

Quick reaction, as always. Thanks.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi Benoit,
>
> On 2013-07-17 09:18 Benoit Claise said the following:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is there something wrong with http://tools.ietf.org/draft/aliases, which
>> stops with:
>>
>> draft-aboba-dhc-mini.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.authors: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>> draft-aboba-dhc-nad-ipv4.all: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>> draft-a
> Huh! Yes, that seems to have been a truncated file.  Fortunately it wasn't
> on the server which is the primary mail handler.  I've fixed it now.
>
> Thanks for the alert!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> 	Henrik
>
>


From lars@netapp.com  Thu Jul 18 01:20:11 2013
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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ietfdb readonly password
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 08:19:55 +0000
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] ietfdb readonly password
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Hi,

Henrik seems to be on vacation. I'd appreciate if anyone could share the co=
desprint password for read-only access to mysql on grenache. (As per http:/=
/trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/SprintCoderSetup)

Thanks,
Lars=

From bclaise@cisco.com  Thu Jul 18 08:29:30 2013
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:28:17 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Send ballot window: tool improvement
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070904030009060309090107
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Hi,

Attached is a typical "send ballot position email" window.

On regular basis, while multitasking, I click multiple times on the 
"Send" button.
Would it possible to go back to the previous window once the "Send" 
action is done.
That would avoid annoying duplications.

Regards, Benoit





--------------070904030009060309090107
Content-Type: multipart/related;
 boundary="------------050608080902010200010904"


--------------050608080902010200010904
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    Attached is a typical "send ballot position email" window.<br>
    <img src="cid:part1.00010702.06010509@cisco.com" alt=""><br>
    On regular basis, while multitasking, I click multiple times on the
    "Send" button.<br>
    Would it possible to go back to the previous window once the "Send"
    action is done.<br>
    That would avoid annoying duplications.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Send ballot window: tool improvement
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> On regular basis, while multitasking, I click multiple times on the "Send" button.
> Would it possible to go back to the previous window once the "Send" action is done.
> That would avoid annoying duplications.

It does.  The problem is that the "Send" can take some time, and
during that time the window is unchanged.  Perhaps what you're
actually asking is that when you click "Send", the first quick thing
the tool should do is disable the "Send" button, and perhaps add a
"Sending..." indication to the window.  Then it can take its time
sending.

Barry

From bclaise@cisco.com  Fri Jul 19 01:33:39 2013
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On 18/07/2013 20:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> On regular basis, while multitasking, I click multiple times on the "Send" button.
>> Would it possible to go back to the previous window once the "Send" action is done.
>> That would avoid annoying duplications.
> It does.
Well, not for me. At least for 5 minutes.
I will test some more.
>   The problem is that the "Send" can take some time, and
> during that time the window is unchanged.  Perhaps what you're
> actually asking is that when you click "Send", the first quick thing
> the tool should do is disable the "Send" button, and perhaps add a
> "Sending..." indication to the window.  Then it can take its time
> sending.
That does the trick, yes.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Barry
>
>


From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Jul 23 01:53:07 2013
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Hi Henrik,

Since a day or two, the ietf web site is very slow
Right now, I try to access 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-19
After one minute, still not there...
datatracker.ietf.org seems fine.

Regards, Benoit

From bclaise@cisco.com  Tue Jul 23 03:33:01 2013
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After some investigations, this was a local problem: way too many tabs 
in Firefox.
Sorry for the false alert.
Thanks Elwyn.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi Henrik,
>
> Since a day or two, the ietf web site is very slow
> Right now, I try to access 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-19
> After one minute, still not there...
> datatracker.ietf.org seems fine.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>


From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Jul 23 05:27:29 2013
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Hi Benoit,

On 2013-07-23 10:52 Benoit Claise said the following:
> Hi Henrik,
> 
> Since a day or two, the ietf web site is very slow
> Right now, I try to access 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-19
> After one minute, still not there...
> datatracker.ietf.org seems fine.

Thanks for the alert -- checking this now.


	Henrik

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n 2013-07-23 12:31 Benoit Claise said the following:
> After some investigations, this was a local problem: way too many tabs 
> in Firefox.
> Sorry for the false alert.

Ah. Ok :-)

	Henrik

> Thanks Elwyn.
> 
> Regards, Benoit
>> Hi Henrik,
>>
>> Since a day or two, the ietf web site is very slow
>> Right now, I try to access 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-19
>> After one minute, still not there...
>> datatracker.ietf.org seems fine.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
> 
> 

From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Wed Jul 24 12:39:51 2013
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Hi,

I am at http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6445/
I click on the link "Was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib" and although it claims
to be taking me to
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib/ it actually
just brings me back to the same page.

Bug or feature?

Adrian


From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Jul 24 13:07:19 2013
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Hi Adrian,

On 2013-07-24 21:39 Adrian Farrel said the following:
> Hi,
> 
> I am at http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6445/
> I click on the link "Was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib" and although it claims
> to be taking me to
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib/ it actually
> just brings me back to the same page.

Certainly sounds like a bug to me ,:-)

Probably an effect of the rather heavy refactoring which have taken place in
parts of the code with the latest release.  I'll have a look.


Best regards,

	Henrik

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Jul 24 13:10:48 2013
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Hi Adrian,

I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be correct, as
the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which started
out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.

What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?

Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2013-07-24 22:07 Henrik Levkowetz said the following:
> Hi Adrian,
> 
> On 2013-07-24 21:39 Adrian Farrel said the following:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am at http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6445/
>> I click on the link "Was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib" and although it claims
>> to be taking me to
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib/ it actually
>> just brings me back to the same page.
> 
> Certainly sounds like a bug to me ,:-)
> 
> Probably an effect of the rather heavy refactoring which have taken place in
> parts of the code with the latest release.  I'll have a look.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Henrik
> 

From barryleiba@gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 13:28:20 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change in datatracker behavior
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> I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be correct, as
> the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which started
> out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.
>
> What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?

I'm not certain, but I'm *pretty sure* this didn't used to work that
way -- that we used to be able to see the page for last version of the
draft.

That said, the main problems are these:

- The tools version lets one look at each version of the document
explicitly, but the datatracker doesn't.  This isn't a change, of
course.

- When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
unfortunate.

The workaround is, of course, to use the tools version.

Barry

From rjsparks@nostrum.com  Wed Jul 24 13:39:04 2013
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On 7/24/13 3:28 PM, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be correct, as
>> the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which started
>> out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.
>>
>> What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?
> I'm not certain, but I'm *pretty sure* this didn't used to work that
> way -- that we used to be able to see the page for last version of the
> draft.
I'm certain.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc3261/ gave a view of the rfc

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis/ gave a view 
of the last version of the draft,
which gave you access to the ballots.
>
> That said, the main problems are these:
>
> - The tools version lets one look at each version of the document
> explicitly, but the datatracker doesn't.  This isn't a change, of
> course.
>
> - When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
> history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
> 21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
> diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
> unfortunate.
>
> The workaround is, of course, to use the tools version.
>
> Barry
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change in datatracker behavior
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Hrmm - for the draft adrian pointed to, you can still get to the ballots.

RjS

On 7/24/13 3:38 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> On 7/24/13 3:28 PM, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>> I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be 
>>> correct, as
>>> the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which 
>>> started
>>> out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.
>>>
>>> What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?
>> I'm not certain, but I'm *pretty sure* this didn't used to work that
>> way -- that we used to be able to see the page for last version of the
>> draft.
> I'm certain.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc3261/ gave a view of the rfc
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis/ gave a 
> view of the last version of the draft,
> which gave you access to the ballots.
>>
>> That said, the main problems are these:
>>
>> - The tools version lets one look at each version of the document
>> explicitly, but the datatracker doesn't.  This isn't a change, of
>> course.
>>
>> - When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
>> history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
>> 21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
>> diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
>> unfortunate.
>>
>> The workaround is, of course, to use the tools version.
>>
>> Barry
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Wed Jul 24 13:47:24 2013
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Barry Leiba'" <barryleiba@computer.org>, "'Henrik Levkowetz'" <henrik@levkowetz.com>
References: <040601ce88a5$89a0c800$9ce25800$@olddog.co.uk>	<51F033F4.1020509@levkowetz.com>	<51F034C7.5040108@levkowetz.com> <CALaySJJsg4vK1nz0i+N3FOoLM+kfLTmGtWbVPLbmWw_n+zekYA@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi,

Thanks for looking.

What I used to get was the datatracker page for the I-D that bare information
and a pointer to the tools version of the I-D.
The datatracker page usefully included the "replaces" information that allowed
you to track back further into history.

It used to be that the History tab of the RFC was fairly boring, but the History
tab of the I-D gave the progress of the I-D. This seems to now be in the History
of the RFC (I think).

I also see that (and this is odd) when I click on the IPR link on the RFC page I
get a search on the I-D name not on the RFC name.  I don't suppose this matters
as the output is probably the same, but it looks odd.
E.g. From http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6372/ click "IPR Disclosures" and
go to
http://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?option=document_search&id=draft-ietf-mpl
s-tp-survive-fwk

I'm not currently blocked from getting the info I need (being a resourceful
rodent), but it is all a bit odd.

A


> -----Original Message-----
> From: barryleiba@gmail.com [mailto:barryleiba@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Barry
> Leiba
> Sent: 24 July 2013 21:28
> To: Henrik Levkowetz
> Cc: Adrian Farrel; IESG; Tools Team Discussion
> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change in datatracker behavior
> 
> > I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be correct, as
> > the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which started
> > out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.
> >
> > What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?
> 
> I'm not certain, but I'm *pretty sure* this didn't used to work that
> way -- that we used to be able to see the page for last version of the
> draft.
> 
> That said, the main problems are these:
> 
> - The tools version lets one look at each version of the document
> explicitly, but the datatracker doesn't.  This isn't a change, of
> course.
> 
> - When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
> history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
> 21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
> diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
> unfortunate.
> 
> The workaround is, of course, to use the tools version.
> 
> Barry


From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Jul 24 23:37:50 2013
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Hi Barry,

On 2013-07-24 22:28 Barry Leiba said the following:
>> I just looked a little bit at this, and it might actually be correct, as
>> the RFC is considered just another instance of the document which started
>> out as draft-..., as you'll see if you look at the history tab.
>>
>> What did you expect; what were you looking for on the draft page?
> 
> I'm not certain, but I'm *pretty sure* this didn't used to work that
> way -- that we used to be able to see the page for last version of the
> draft.
> 
> That said, the main problems are these:
> 
> - The tools version lets one look at each version of the document
> explicitly, but the datatracker doesn't.  This isn't a change, of
> course.

Ah.  Right.  

> - When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
> history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
> 21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
> diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
> unfortunate.

Oops!  Yes, that's a regression.  I'll find out where *that* went, and
bring it back.

> The workaround is, of course, to use the tools version.

Right, but you shouldn't need to; the diff functionality should be there.


Best regards,

	Henrik

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The "show full document text" cookie, set by this:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/cookies/full_draft/on

...does not appear to work.

Barry

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Jul 25 08:21:48 2013
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Hi Barry,

On 2013-07-25 16:42 Barry Leiba said the following:
> The "show full document text" cookie, set by this:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/cookies/full_draft/on
> 
> ...does not appear to work.

Ok, noted.  I'll look at this later today.


Best regards,

	Henrik

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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:39:49 +0200
From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "show full document text" cookie doesn't seem to work now
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Hi Barry,

> Hi Barry,
> 
> On 2013-07-25 16:42 Barry Leiba said the following:
>> The "show full document text" cookie, set by this:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/cookies/full_draft/on
>> 
>> ...does not appear to work.

This should be fixed now.


Best regards,

	Henrik

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>>> The "show full document text" cookie, set by this:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/cookies/full_draft/on
>>>
>>> ...does not appear to work.
>
> This should be fixed now.

'tis; thanks!

Barry

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Thu Jul 25 12:41:53 2013
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> On 2013-07-24 22:28 Barry Leiba said the following:

...

On 2013-07-25 08:37 Henrik Levkowetz said the following:
>> > - When the document was draft-ietf-mpls-fastreroute-mib-21, the
>> > history tab let us look at diffs between any pair of versions, 00 thru
>> > 21.  Now that it's RFC 6445, the history tab no longer allows any
>> > diffs at all.  I'm pretty sure this is a change.  In any case, it's
>> > unfortunate.
> Oops!  Yes, that's a regression.  I'll find out where *that* went, and
> bring it back.

Ok, this should be fixed too, now.


Best regards,

	Henrik

From sob@sobco.com  Fri Jul 26 11:15:00 2013
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apparently ether is a bug in the IETF announce tool that is preventing =
the noncom chair from posting the results of the recent IAB selection =
process (to replace Spenser) - I hope that someone=20
is working on that

Scott=

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s/ether/there is/  (Mac mail helping)

On Jul 26, 2013, at 2:14 PM, Scott O Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:

> apparently ether is a bug in the IETF announce tool that is preventing =
the noncom chair from posting the results of the recent IAB selection =
process (to replace Spenser) - I hope that someone=20
> is working on that
>=20
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


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--047d7bacc01a29813b04e26e63f1
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I can't get to <http://tools.ietf.org/html/> right now.  "Access Forbidden
... Error 403"

--047d7bacc01a29813b04e26e63f1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I can&#39;t get to &lt;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/">http://tools.ietf.org/html/</a>&gt; right now. =A0&quot;Access Forbidd=
en ... Error 403&quot;<div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

--047d7bacc01a29813b04e26e63f1--

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I added Alexa to the cc: list.  This is an secretariat tool. =20

Bob

On Jul 26, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Scott O Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:

> apparently ether is a bug in the IETF announce tool that is preventing =
the noncom chair from posting the results of the recent IAB selection =
process (to replace Spenser) - I hope that someone=20
> is working on that
>=20
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From amorris@amsl.com  Fri Jul 26 13:00:50 2013
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From: Alexa Morris <amorris@amsl.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:00:39 +0200
To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bug in ietf announce tool
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I received an email from Matt earlier tonight about this and we are working i=
n it.=20

Thanks,
Alexa

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

> I added Alexa to the cc: list.  This is an secretariat tool. =20
>=20
> Bob
>=20
> On Jul 26, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Scott O Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:
>=20
>> apparently ether is a bug in the IETF announce tool that is preventing th=
e noncom chair from posting the results of the recent IAB selection process (=
to replace Spenser) - I hope that someone=20
>> is working on that
>>=20
>> Scott
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20

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thanks - please let me know when the stuck message goes out

Scott

On Jul 26, 2013, at 4:00 PM, Alexa Morris <amorris@amsl.com>
 wrote:

> I received an email from Matt earlier tonight about this and we are =
working in it.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Alexa
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I added Alexa to the cc: list.  This is an secretariat tool. =20
>>=20
>> Bob
>>=20
>> On Jul 26, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Scott O Bradner <sob@sobco.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> apparently ether is a bug in the IETF announce tool that is =
preventing the noncom chair from posting the results of the recent IAB =
selection process (to replace Spenser) - I hope that someone=20
>>> is working on that
>>>=20
>>> Scott
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


From henrik@levkowetz.com  Fri Jul 26 14:56:36 2013
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Hi Richard,

On 2013-07-26 20:34 Richard Barnes said the following:
> I can't get to <http://tools.ietf.org/html/> right now.  "Access Forbidden
> ... Error 403"

Oops.  Should be OK now, though -- I'm checking around for other similar
things.

THanks for the alert!


Best regards,

	Henrik



From michael.scharf@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Jul 26 10:08:25 2013
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Michael)" <michael.scharf@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Datatracker-generated announcements for (minor) WG milestone changes
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Completion of two WG milestones resulted in the following post to the maili=
ng list, which is not simple to parse, because the change is hidden very ca=
refully... One has to grep for "resolved"...

In addition, the message got stuck in mailman and required manual approval =
(I did so because the expectation seems to be that this message goes to the=
 WG list, even if I personally find the format=B4of that message not very u=
seful).

Since this is a standard operation that will probably occur not only once, =
two suggestions for improvement:

1. Limit the posting of changed milestones only to those milestones that ac=
tually were modified

2. Ensure that such an automated message is not blocked by mailman

Michael


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcpm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>    Of IETF Secretariat
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 6:20 PM
> To: tcpm@ietf.org
> Subject: [tcpm] Milestones changed for tcpm WG
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit FRTO draft to IESG for publication as an
>    Experimental RFC", set due date to March 2004 from March 2004.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Roadmap document to IESG for publication
>    as a  Best Current Practices RFC", set due date to May 2004 from
>    May 2004.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit SYN flooding document to the IESG for
>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to January 2007
>    from January 2007.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit soft errors document to the IESG for
>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to January 2007
>    from January 2007.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit In-Window Attack draft to IESG for
>    publication as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to March 2009
>    from March 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit ECN-SYN document to the IESG for publication
>    as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to March 2009 from March
>    2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit revision of RFC 2581 to the IESG for
>    publication as a Draft Standard", set due date to March 2009 from
>    March 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit ICMP attack document to the IESG for
>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to July 2009
>    from July 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Early-Retransmit document to the IESG
>    for Experimental RFC", set due date to July 2009 from July 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit update to RFC 1323 to the IESG for Proposed
>    Standard RFC", set due date to July 2009 from July 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit MSS text revision originally from RFC 1323
>    appendix to the IESG for Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to
>    July
> 2009 from July 2009.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Urgent Pointer draft to IESG for
>    publication as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to January
>    2010 from January 2010.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on the use of SACK data to trigger
>    loss recovery to the IESG for Proposed Standard", set due date to
>    October 2010 from October 2010.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on mitigation of 'Long Connectivity
>    Disruptions' to the IESG for Experimental", set due date to October
>    2010 from October 2010.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on moving undeployed TCP extensions
>    to Historic status to the IESG for publication as an Informational
>    RFC", set due date to October 2010 from October 2010.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit RFC2988bis document to the IESG for
>    publication as a Proposed Standard", set due date to March 2011
>    from March 2011.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on increasing the initial window to
>    IESG as Experimental", resolved as "Done".
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on a proportional rate reduction
>    mechanism to the IESG as Experimental", set due date to May 2012
>    from May 2012, resolved as "Done".
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on restarting the RTO timer to the
>    IESG for publication as an Experimental RFC", set due date to
>    August
> 2013 from August 2013.
>=20
> Changed milestone " Decide the intended status of the document on TCP
>    support for rate-limited traffic", set due date to August 2013 from
>    August 2013.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on TCP support for rate-limited
>    traffic for publication (status decided as earlier milestone)", set
>    due date to November 2013 from November 2013.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit document on an analysis of more detailed ECN
>    feedback in TCP to the IESG for publication as an Informational
>    RFC", set due date to November 2013 from November 2013.
>=20
> URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/tcpm/charter/
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>=20




From henrik@levkowetz.com  Sun Jul 28 12:36:12 2013
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Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 21:36:03 +0200
From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker-generated announcements for (minor) WG milestone changes
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Hi Michael,

On 2013-07-26 19:08 Scharf, Michael (Michael) said the following:
> Completion of two WG milestones resulted in the following post to the
> mailing list, which is not simple to parse, because the change is
> hidden very carefully... One has to grep for "resolved"...

Yes, there's definitely a bug here; the datatracker shouldn't be reporting
as changes things that haven't changed ...

> In addition, the message got stuck in mailman and required manual
> approval (I did so because the expectation seems to be that this
> message goes to the WG list, even if I personally find the format´of
> that message not very useful).
> 
> Since this is a standard operation that will probably occur not only
> once, two suggestions for improvement:
> 
> 1. Limit the posting of changed milestones only to those milestones
> that actually were modified

Of course, will fix.

> 2. Ensure that such an automated message is not blocked by mailman

I'll email the secretariat about this.


Best regards,

	Henrik

> Michael
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tcpm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>    Of IETF Secretariat
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 6:20 PM
>> To: tcpm@ietf.org
>> Subject: [tcpm] Milestones changed for tcpm WG
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit FRTO draft to IESG for publication as an
>>    Experimental RFC", set due date to March 2004 from March 2004.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Roadmap document to IESG for publication
>>    as a  Best Current Practices RFC", set due date to May 2004 from
>>    May 2004.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit SYN flooding document to the IESG for
>>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to January 2007
>>    from January 2007.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit soft errors document to the IESG for
>>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to January 2007
>>    from January 2007.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit In-Window Attack draft to IESG for
>>    publication as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to March 2009
>>    from March 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit ECN-SYN document to the IESG for publication
>>    as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to March 2009 from March
>>    2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit revision of RFC 2581 to the IESG for
>>    publication as a Draft Standard", set due date to March 2009 from
>>    March 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit ICMP attack document to the IESG for
>>    publication as an Informational RFC", set due date to July 2009
>>    from July 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Early-Retransmit document to the IESG
>>    for Experimental RFC", set due date to July 2009 from July 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit update to RFC 1323 to the IESG for Proposed
>>    Standard RFC", set due date to July 2009 from July 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit MSS text revision originally from RFC 1323
>>    appendix to the IESG for Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to
>>    July
>> 2009 from July 2009.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit TCP Urgent Pointer draft to IESG for
>>    publication as a Proposed Standard RFC", set due date to January
>>    2010 from January 2010.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on the use of SACK data to trigger
>>    loss recovery to the IESG for Proposed Standard", set due date to
>>    October 2010 from October 2010.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on mitigation of 'Long Connectivity
>>    Disruptions' to the IESG for Experimental", set due date to October
>>    2010 from October 2010.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on moving undeployed TCP extensions
>>    to Historic status to the IESG for publication as an Informational
>>    RFC", set due date to October 2010 from October 2010.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit RFC2988bis document to the IESG for
>>    publication as a Proposed Standard", set due date to March 2011
>>    from March 2011.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on increasing the initial window to
>>    IESG as Experimental", resolved as "Done".
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on a proportional rate reduction
>>    mechanism to the IESG as Experimental", set due date to May 2012
>>    from May 2012, resolved as "Done".
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on restarting the RTO timer to the
>>    IESG for publication as an Experimental RFC", set due date to
>>    August
>> 2013 from August 2013.
>> 
>> Changed milestone " Decide the intended status of the document on TCP
>>    support for rate-limited traffic", set due date to August 2013 from
>>    August 2013.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on TCP support for rate-limited
>>    traffic for publication (status decided as earlier milestone)", set
>>    due date to November 2013 from November 2013.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit document on an analysis of more detailed ECN
>>    feedback in TCP to the IESG for publication as an Informational
>>    RFC", set due date to November 2013 from November 2013.
>> 
>> URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/tcpm/charter/
>> _______________________________________________
>> tcpm mailing list
>> tcpm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

From bclaise@cisco.com  Mon Jul 29 00:21:36 2013
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Room: Schoeneberg 1/2 
<http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/venue/?room=schoeneberg-12>

I hope I have the right people in the "to" list

Regards, Benoit

--------------000709020305020008020902
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<html>
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    Room: <a
      href="http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/venue/?room=schoeneberg-12">Schoeneberg
      1/2</a><br>
    <br>
    I hope I have the right people in the "to" list<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------000709020305020008020902--

From amorris@amsl.com  Mon Jul 29 00:27:23 2013
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Actually this should go to the NOC list (tickets@meeting.ietf.org) and =
I've forwarded it there. Thank you!

Alexa

On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

> Room: Schoeneberg 1/2
>=20
> I hope I have the right people in the "to" list
>=20
> Regards, Benoit

----------
Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF
48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA  94538
Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001
Email: amorris@amsl.com

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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">Actually this should go to the NOC list (<a =
href=3D"mailto:tickets@meeting.ietf.org">tickets@meeting.ietf.org</a>) =
and I've forwarded it there. Thank =
you!<div><br></div><div>Alexa</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 29, 2013, =
at 12:19 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">
 =20

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DISO-8859-1">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Room: <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/venue/?room=3Dschoeneberg-12">Scho=
eneberg
      1/2</a><br>
    <br>
    I hope I have the right people in the "to" list<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
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"><div>----------<br>Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF<br>48377 =
Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA &nbsp;94538<br>Phone: =
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Association Management Solutions (AMS)<br>Forum Management, Meeting and =
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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:29:38 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [www.ietf.org/rt #58181] AutoReply: audio in the EMAN WG for remote attendees not working
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Solved.

Regards, Benoit
> Greetings,
>
> This message has been automatically generated in response to the
> creation of a trouble ticket regarding:
> 	"audio in the EMAN WG for remote attendees not working",
> a summary of which appears below.
>
> There is no need to reply to this message right now.  Your ticket has been
> assigned an ID of [www.ietf.org/rt #58181].
>
> Please include the string:
>
>           [www.ietf.org/rt #58181]
>
> in the subject line of all future correspondence about this issue. To do so,
> you may reply to this message.
>
>
>                          Thank you,
>                          iesg-secretary@ietf.org
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Room: Schoeneberg 1/2
> <http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/venue/?room=schoeneberg-12>
>
> I hope I have the right people in the "to" list
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>


From tony@att.com  Mon Jul 29 15:35:03 2013
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From: Tony Hansen <tony@att.com>
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Cc: "<87attendees@ietf.org>" <87attendees@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [87attendees] Agenda highlighting?
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While I wrote the original version of the color tagging that is running
on tools.ietf.org/agenda, it was rewritten by someone else when the
feature was picked up for the datatracker.

The datatracker version depends on a javascript object named IETF
getting created prior to agenda2.js being pulled in. Somewhere along the
line, the code to do that evidently got lost.

For now, you can switch to the tools.ietf.org/agenda version;
unfortunately, you'll have to re-highlight the meetings.

One of these days we'll hopefully make the color tagging portable
between the two systems and transportable to other devices; currently
the color tagging is specific to a specific browser and is not shared
between the two sites.

    Tony Hansen

On 7/29/2013 10:30 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
> Oh, sorry. I hadn't noticed the URL. It works for me in http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/
>
> On Jul 29, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
>
>> It's also broken for me.
>> js yells about "[16:09:26.474] ReferenceError: IETF is not defined @ http://datatracker.ietf.org/js/agenda2.js:61"
>>
>> RjS
>>
>> On 7/29/13 2:25 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:
>>> WFM with Safari on a Mac.
>>>
>>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:16 PM, Stuart Cheshire <ietf13@stuartcheshire.org>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it just me, or is the agenda color coding not working? When I mouse
>>>> over the little color swatch, a popup appears saying "color tag this
>>>> line", but when I click on it, nothing happens.
>>>>
>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/87/agenda.html>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart Cheshire
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 87attendees mailing list
>>>> 87attendees@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87attendees
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 87attendees mailing list
>>> 87attendees@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87attendees
>>
>> Email secured by Check Point
> _______________________________________________
> 87attendees mailing list
> 87attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87attendees


From mnot@mnot.net  Mon Jul 29 22:43:26 2013
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Trac notifications don't have complete URLs
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Some of the e-mail notifications (but not all of them) that Trac sends =
have incomplete URLs.

E.g., at the bottom of the most recent one I received is:

Ticket URL: </ticket/473#comment:8>
httpbis <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/>

=85 which was caused by this change:
  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/2326

Other changes *do* have the full URL (although I don't have an example =
now).

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul 29 20:16:21 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [87attendees] Agenda highlighting?
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/me wishes http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/ had links to the meetecho

randy

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At 6:34 PM -0400 7/29/13, Tony Hansen wrote:

>  One of these days we'll hopefully make the color tagging portable
>  between the two systems and transportable to other devices; currently
>  the color tagging is specific to a specific browser and is not shared
>  between the two sites.

Yes, it would be handy if the agenda tags were in the URL so they 
could be shared across browsers and devices (assuming one remembered 
to bookmark the resulting URL).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Artificial Intelligence:  Making computers behave like they do in the movies.

From dkg@fifthhorseman.net  Tue Jul 30 08:06:58 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trac notifications don't have complete URLs
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On 07/30/2013 01:43 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Some of the e-mail notifications (but not all of them) that Trac sends =
have incomplete URLs.
>=20
> E.g., at the bottom of the most recent one I received is:
>=20
> Ticket URL: </ticket/473#comment:8>
> httpbis <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/>
>=20
> =E2=80=A6 which was caused by this change:
>   http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/2326
>=20
> Other changes *do* have the full URL (although I don't have an example =
now).

In my experience, this is due to the trac changeset listener extension
point getting invoked by the repository sync, and not from the web
request itself while trac.base_url is unset in trac.ini  From the web
request, trac can examine the Host: header and determine what its
base_url should be.  from the changeset listener extension point, it has
no such hint.

one way to fix is to ensure that the base_url setting in the [trac]
section of trac.ini is set, e.g.:

[trac]
base_url =3D http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac

hth,

	--dkg


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From henrik@levkowetz.com  Tue Jul 30 16:33:33 2013
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On 2013-07-30 17:06 Daniel Kahn Gillmor said the following:
> On 07/30/2013 01:43 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> Some of the e-mail notifications (but not all of them) that Trac sends have incomplete URLs.
>> 
>> E.g., at the bottom of the most recent one I received is:
>> 
>> Ticket URL: </ticket/473#comment:8>
>> httpbis <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/>
>> 
>> … which was caused by this change:
>>   http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/2326
>> 
>> Other changes *do* have the full URL (although I don't have an example now).
> 
> In my experience, this is due to the trac changeset listener extension
> point getting invoked by the repository sync, and not from the web
> request itself while trac.base_url is unset in trac.ini  From the web
> request, trac can examine the Host: header and determine what its
> base_url should be.  from the changeset listener extension point, it has
> no such hint.
> 
> one way to fix is to ensure that the base_url setting in the [trac]
> section of trac.ini is set, e.g.:
> 
> [trac]
> base_url = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac

Oh, excellent.  I've updated the httpbis trac.ini, will do that generally
by script later.


Thanks and best regards,

	Henrik

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From mnot@mnot.net  Tue Jul 30 23:54:56 2013
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Thanks!

On Jul 31, 2013, at 1:33 AM, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> =
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>=20
>=20
> On 2013-07-30 17:06 Daniel Kahn Gillmor said the following:
>> On 07/30/2013 01:43 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> Some of the e-mail notifications (but not all of them) that Trac =
sends have incomplete URLs.
>>>=20
>>> E.g., at the bottom of the most recent one I received is:
>>>=20
>>> Ticket URL: </ticket/473#comment:8>
>>> httpbis <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/>
>>>=20
>>> =85 which was caused by this change:
>>>  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/2326
>>>=20
>>> Other changes *do* have the full URL (although I don't have an =
example now).
>>=20
>> In my experience, this is due to the trac changeset listener =
extension
>> point getting invoked by the repository sync, and not from the web
>> request itself while trac.base_url is unset in trac.ini  =46rom the =
web
>> request, trac can examine the Host: header and determine what its
>> base_url should be.  from the changeset listener extension point, it =
has
>> no such hint.
>>=20
>> one way to fix is to ensure that the base_url setting in the [trac]
>> section of trac.ini is set, e.g.:
>>=20
>> [trac]
>> base_url =3D http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac
>=20
> Oh, excellent.  I've updated the httpbis trac.ini, will do that =
generally
> by script later.
>=20
>=20
> Thanks and best regards,
>=20
> 	Henrik
>=20
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--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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(feedback link came up in wg chairs training)

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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From: Marc Blanchet <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Milestones changed for sunset4 WG
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--Apple-Mail=_569605F6-7C32-4F64-911B-7C66D575D2AA
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Hello,
 as noted during the wg chair lunch, I practice the tool and got into =
this what I consider a bug (minor but annoying):
- I just changed one milestone (first one), but the two unchanged =
milestones were also notified, which they should not.

Marc.

D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :

> De : IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
> Objet : Milestones changed for sunset4 WG
> Date : 31 juillet 2013 12:37:49 UTC+02:00
> =C0 : "Ted Lemon" <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, "Marc Blanchet" =
<Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>, "Wesley George" <wesley.george@twcable.com>
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit gap analysis on IPv4 sunsetting to IESG for
> consideration as an Informational RFC", set due date to March 2013
> from March 2013, added draft-ietf-sunset4-gapanalysis to milestone.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit NAT64 port allocation and address sharing
> methods to IESG for consideration as an Informational RFC", set due
> date to July 2013 from July 2013.
>=20
> Changed milestone "Submit provisioning methods to signal a dual-stack
> host to disable the use of IPv4 to IESG for consideration as Proposed
> Standard", set due date to September 2013 from September 2013.
>=20
> URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/charter/


--Apple-Mail=_569605F6-7C32-4F64-911B-7C66D575D2AA
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">Hello,<div>&nbsp;as noted during the wg chair lunch, I practice the =
tool and got into this what I consider a bug (minor but =
annoying):</div><div>- I just changed one milestone (first one), but the =
two unchanged milestones were also notified, which they should =
not.</div><div><br></div><div>Marc.<br><div><br><div>D=E9but du message =
r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, =
1.0);"><b>De : </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium;">IETF Secretariat &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org">ietf-secretariat-reply@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, =
1.0);"><b>Objet : </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium;"><b>Milestones changed for sunset4 =
WG</b><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, =
1.0);"><b>Date : </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium;">31 juillet 2013 12:37:49 =
UTC+02:00<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, =
1.0);"><b>=C0 : </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium;">"Ted Lemon" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ted.lemon@nominum.com">ted.lemon@nominum.com</a>&gt;, =
"Marc Blanchet" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca">Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca</a>&gt=
;, "Wesley George" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wesley.george@twcable.com">wesley.george@twcable.com</a>&gt=
;<br></span></div><br><div>Changed milestone "Submit gap analysis on =
IPv4 sunsetting to IESG for<br>consideration as an Informational RFC", =
set due date to March 2013<br>from March 2013, added =
draft-ietf-sunset4-gapanalysis to milestone.<br><br>Changed milestone =
"Submit NAT64 port allocation and address sharing<br>methods to IESG for =
consideration as an Informational RFC", set due<br>date to July 2013 =
from July 2013.<br><br>Changed milestone "Submit provisioning methods to =
signal a dual-stack<br>host to disable the use of IPv4 to IESG for =
consideration as Proposed<br>Standard", set due date to September 2013 =
from September 2013.<br><br>URL: <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/charter/">http://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/charter/</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div><=
/body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_569605F6-7C32-4F64-911B-7C66D575D2AA--

From henrik@levkowetz.com  Wed Jul 31 03:53:51 2013
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: Milestones changed for sunset4 WG
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Hi Marc,

On 2013-07-31 12:42 Marc Blanchet said the following:
> Hello,
>  as noted during the wg chair lunch, I practice the tool and got into this what I consider a bug (minor but annoying):
> - I just changed one milestone (first one), but the two unchanged milestones were also notified, which they should not.

Yes, this is a known issue; I've started to look at why this happens, but haven't
completed it yet -- I'm merging the sprint contributions at the moment.


Best regards,

	Henrik

> Marc.
> 
> Début du message réexpédié :
> 
>> De : IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>> Objet : Milestones changed for sunset4 WG
>> Date : 31 juillet 2013 12:37:49 UTC+02:00
>> À : "Ted Lemon" <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>, "Wesley George" <wesley.george@twcable.com>
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit gap analysis on IPv4 sunsetting to IESG for
>> consideration as an Informational RFC", set due date to March 2013
>> from March 2013, added draft-ietf-sunset4-gapanalysis to milestone.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit NAT64 port allocation and address sharing
>> methods to IESG for consideration as an Informational RFC", set due
>> date to July 2013 from July 2013.
>> 
>> Changed milestone "Submit provisioning methods to signal a dual-stack
>> host to disable the use of IPv4 to IESG for consideration as Proposed
>> Standard", set due date to September 2013 from September 2013.
>> 
>> URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/charter/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 

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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Forgot password in sign in
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> Could we PLEASE have a forgot password link in sign in for tools, such as datatracker?

It ought to be easier to find, but:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/reset/

Barry

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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Forgot password in sign in
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On 7/31/13 1:00 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote:
> Could we PLEASE have a forgot password link in sign in for tools, such as datatracker?
Brian -

Please look at <http://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/> (which you get to 
with the "New Account" link when not logged in, or the "Manage Account" 
link when logged in.

RjS

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