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Passwords for tools-team-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-team@ietf.org fuuwuh https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-team/tools-team-archive%40ietf.org From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 12:47:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07728; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YIX-0003jc-7E; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:49:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XNM-0006Rk-JL; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:50:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2VJm-0005bh-GQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:38:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09503 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Qui-0005QW-8X for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 04:56:21 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2F40837E96; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:53:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176F437E44; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:53:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0940237E52; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:53:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2Qs2-00051z-Sk; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:53:34 +0200 Message-ID: <41358E0E.2030702@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:53:34 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mankin@psg.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Archive meant to be public? References: <200409010240.WAA25644@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <200409010240.WAA25644@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allison Mankin wrote: > I just noticed that the tools-team archive is publically accessible. > > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/maillist.html > > Did you want this? Harald suggested that although the list is not an open list, the archives should be publicly accessable, and I don't have a problem with that. Do you have reservations? Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 12:47:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07818; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YJ6-0003ki-Vs; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:50:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XNO-0006Ts-3m; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:50:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2VJx-0005fe-2F for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:38:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09625 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Qox-0004DW-Ec for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 04:50:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9998861B89; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:47:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16503-01; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A44B61B7D; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:47:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:47:20 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] do we need a framework? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040830110718.E62186@measurement-factory.com> References: <412CC436.8030100@levkowetz.com> <20040825163551.H49770@measurement-factory.com> <412F3422.9090105@levkowetz.com> <4131CAAA.6050805@levkowetz.com> <971690C5AB73847D40FBB922@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <20040830110718.E62186@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 30. august 2004 11:20 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> I don't think we actually need to be able to PROVE identity. But we >> do need to be able to do some kind of "did you submit this?" check >> if the issue ever comes up. > > I am not sure I follow. If we cannot prove submitter identity (to a > required degree of proof) when the draft is posted, then we cannot > implement a post-factum "did you submit this?" check. A malicious > submitter would just say "no, I did not; give me my company IP back!". We > have to rely on information logged during the submission (which may > require several iterations and essentially means proving identity). No, I don't think so - when someone says "I did not submit this", we take down the draft. We may want to hand over evidence from the submission process to the person in whose name the submission was made, so that they can pursue this - but I do not think we need to dive into the "we have to prove that you did this" rathole. > AFAIK, electronic signatures are starting to gain legal acceptance so we > may have good luck with using modern authentication methods. > > We can also discuss recommending "now respond with this key to complete > your post" e-mail interface as an alternative (it will verify temporary > control of submitter's e-mail address). maybe. That's all that is needed to register an account in most relatively-open systems out there - and we want the IETF to remain a relatively-open system. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 12:47:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07836; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YJ9-0003kr-8Z; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:50:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XNQ-0006ZM-Db; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:50:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2VK7-0005iW-BD for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:38:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09766 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Qka-0003eZ-4r for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 04:45:52 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B49A137E81; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B9A37E43; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900E437E48; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2Qhu-00050K-Dx; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 Message-ID: <41358B9A.609@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allison Mankin Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allison Mankin wrote: >> ... But as doing diffs is infeasible if you don't >>have the previous version, and having a line of diffs will let you >>reconstruct expired drafts, we may need IESG sanction to set up >>such a mechanism, even if we don't change the working of the regular >>draft repository. > > > I do see that. So my suggestion to Alex in my response to him was to > have an explicit experimental process, using the "July 14" approach, > acknowledging that there's a partial archive involved. Right. ... >>>P.S. about post-approval: some working groups have been editor-driven >>> or laissez faire so that the 00 is submitted and the working group >>> and chair have not been well aware. It used to be more common; >>> there were problem working group chairs in CCAMP to give you one >>> example where you can see a huge number of i-ds due to this >>> phenomenon. >> >>I wonder if there's a misunderstanding here - we're not even considering >>sanctioning a -00 that has been posted without proper approval - when we >>talk about post-approval, it's the case where a draft which has been >>properly accepted by the WG as a WG draft is submitted, an approval request >>is sent to the chair, and the chair OK's it -- as opposed to the case where >>the chair registers approval before the sumbission is done, and no >>additional approval request needs to be sent. >> >>If I've misunderstood and mistakenly thought there might be a >>misunderstanding at your end, I apologise :-) and instead wonder if >>you might clarify. >> > > I didn't mean to say you were sanctioning unapproved -00's, but rather > I was pointing out that the current process/system has no checks on whether > the WG has adopted them (or that they're chartered). If the WG Chair is not > careful/scrupulous, the system is in trouble. IETF likes to add a lot of sunshine > to such situations, so I think what might be good to see is a WG tracker that > tracks how individual drafts are adopted by the working group, verified by > the AD as within the charter (or added to the charter) and then approved > as 00 items. Currently may not even be documentation of the WG adoption. Ah, Ok, I see your point now. That makes the pre-approval approach look like the one we want to keep, as it will fit better into a WG tracker tool. Thanks. > P.P.S. I'm back, but now I'll be mainly offline again for the next few days... > for some travel for my day job. Ok. If you feel like it and have the time, you'r welcome to the conference call today. I'll send details separately. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 12:47:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07859; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YJA-0003l1-MS; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:50:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XNQ-0006aC-VC; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:50:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2VK7-0005iY-Kh for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:38:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09759 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Qkq-0003ee-HM for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 04:46:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A1661B89; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16247-08; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66FE61B7D; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:43:06 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] do we need a framework? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040830105636.M62186@measurement-factory.com> References: <412CC436.8030100@levkowetz.com> <20040825163551.H49770@measurement-factory.com> <412F3422.9090105@levkowetz.com> <20040830105636.M62186@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 30. august 2004 11:05 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> We should make sure the system mostly works without requiring that >> identity to be linked to a person - unless we have to. > > Agreed. > > Legal issues aside, multiple identities for a single person, a single > identity for multiple persons, and even software-managed identity without > specific human association should be allowed in principle. > > However, besides legal issues, the difficulty would be in surviving a > malicious attack polluting IETF repositories with millions of > authenticated but bogus drafts. If and as soon as we remove rate-limiting > Secretariat from the loop, we have to be ready for this kind of abuse. this is one for the security considerations section of the draft. measuring the pre-IETF submission rate and saying "rate-limit automatic tools at 2x that rate, and hit the alarm if you get to that limit" should be enough. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:02:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10747; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YXI-0005Qn-68; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:04:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XUY-0003QO-HG; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:57:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2W0v-0006ao-82 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:23:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA17954 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.1.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2W37-0002Lq-G6; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:25:21 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-140.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.140] helo=foretec.com) by ns.cnri.reston.va.us with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1C2W0t-00073g-8w; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:23:03 -0400 Message-ID: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:22:51 -0400 From: Michael Lee User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-team@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050306090509090502030902" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0516e2ddc924b4e52f6253f239963708 Cc: Dinara Suleymanova , Rebecca Bunch Subject: [Tools-team] Requirement Specification - I-D Submission Tool, IETF Secretariat Part X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 884d655656c6d298dae25b0122479d16 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050306090509090502030902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear TOOLS Team Members: Attached is the Secretariat's draft Software Requirements Specification (SRS) for the I-D Submission and Posting Tool. The requirements assume that the tool will implement the procedures that the Secretariat currently uses to process Internet-Drafts. Please note that the SRS does not include requirements for features that the TOOLS Team is already addressing in the initial draft of its proposed I-D "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission," for example, requirements for validation of I-Ds and authentication of submitters. Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about this SRS. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --------------050306090509090502030902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --------------050306090509090502030902-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:14:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11779; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Yit-00063q-BE; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:16:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XYZ-000721-PK; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:01:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2WJH-0004gs-0k for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:42:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19959 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409011442.KAA19959@ietf.org> Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2WLS-0003Z7-Pu for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:44:20 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=psg.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.41 (FreeBSD)) id 1C2WJE-000K90-HO; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:42:00 +0000 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Archive meant to be public? In-Reply-To: Message from Henrik Levkowetz of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:53:34 +0200." <41358E0E.2030702@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:42:00 -0700 From: Allison Mankin X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Henrik, I don't have reservations, but good to know now. It has some impact on the comments one might publish, of course, and I don't recall it having been stated in writing to the mailing list (but perhaps I'm the only person who did not have this information). Allison P.S. additional context for my question: the rendering public of mailing lists at ietf.org has often happened accidentally in the past. > > Allison Mankin wrote: > > > I just noticed that the tools-team archive is publically accessible. > > > > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/maillist.html > > > > Did you want this? > > Harald suggested that although the list is not an open list, the > archives should be publicly accessable, and I don't have a problem > with that. > > Do you have reservations? > > Henrik > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:15:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11851; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Yjr-0006Ha-Ea; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:17:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XZ5-0008Ug-LD; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:02:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2WQ2-0001Al-7U for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:49:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21478 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2WSB-0003t5-Rm for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:51:19 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id EB9A637EED; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:48:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC24237E5B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:48:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CAF37E4C for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:48:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2WPS-0004DX-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:48:26 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:48:22 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 1 Sep 2004 Telechat Message-Id: <20040901164822.67228ed3@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the proposed agenda for today. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Action item review. * Larry will write a first draft of a note to send out to the ietf and wgchairs lists about the tools-discuss list. To be refined on the tools-team list. * Larry will write a summary on how to find out what people want and how to evaluate what is actually needed * Henrik will send first copy of Tools inventory/prio draft to the list Thu. or Fri. * Alex will send the first copy of ID-Submission req. draft to the list Wed. or Thu. * Henrik will follow up on creation of "tools-discuss@ietf.org" list, and on the subdomain delegation * Alex will re-initiate the discussion on the tools-team@ietf.org list, as a continuation of the discussion about needed tools, components, requirements etc which was started before IETF-60, but temporarily put on hold. * Henrik fix up web page with link to charter etc, and send msg. * Henrik Get wiki set up * Stas Summary of tools reviewed/mentioned on the mailing list on a wiki page. 4. Status of drafts 5. Next steps 6. Any other business. 7. New action items, summary 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 8 Sep, same time as today, same codes. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:16:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12004; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Yke-0006KR-F2; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:18:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XZI-0000nx-02; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:02:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2WUg-0003bU-0D for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:53:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22375 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2WWr-00040u-SK for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:56:07 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8703437EA1; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BE337E57; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6662937E48; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2WU8-0004EO-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:53:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:53:16 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Allison Mankin Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Archive meant to be public? Message-Id: <20040901165316.6ec6a42b@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allison, On Wednesday, 1 Sep 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: > I don't have reservations, but good to know now. Ah, good. > It has some impact on the comments one might publish, of > course, and I don't recall it having been stated in writing > to the mailing list (but perhaps I'm the only person who did > not have this information). It was discussed during one of the conference calls, and it may have slipped my mind when doing the minutes. But now it should be pretty clear :-) > Allison > > P.S. additional context for my question: the rendering public > of mailing lists at ietf.org has often happened accidentally > in the past. Ah, I see. Ok. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:24:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12900; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Ysd-00078H-41; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:26:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XnM-0000V6-EM; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:17:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2X9H-00060S-8x for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:35:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28741 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2XBT-0006Zm-BJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:38:04 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81FZg9d081499; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:35:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81FZWGE081498; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:35:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:35:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Allison Mankin Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Archive meant to be public? In-Reply-To: <200409010240.WAA25644@ietf.org> Message-ID: <20040901093147.I79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <200409010240.WAA25644@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: > I just noticed that the tools-team archive is publically accessible. > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/maillist.html > Did you want this? Yes. I hope you did not post any comments that were not meant for the public to see (we can probably remove a message if you did). Your question is a good example of why a W3C-like "do you know your message is going to be archived?" consent-checking system is a very good idea for IETF mailing lists. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 13:52:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15240; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2ZK3-00011r-JS; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:55:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2YTQ-0003Mi-Rp; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:00:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2XSp-0002PY-JY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:55:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02173 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2XV2-0007qm-WF for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:58:17 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Ftw9d082307; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:55:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81FtwlL082306; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:55:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:55:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Allison Mankin Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication In-Reply-To: <200409010228.WAA24771@ietf.org> Message-ID: <20040901093941.T79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <200409010228.WAA24771@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: tools-team@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: > I do see that. So my suggestion to Alex in my response to him was > to have an explicit experimental process, using the "July 14" > approach, acknowledging that there's a partial archive involved. I agree that making our intent explicit is the best way to proceed. I think it is worth the effort to bring the case for temporary ID archiving to IETF/IESG, and I volunteer to lead that if needed/appropriate. >>> - Some things IETF hasn't formally decided, but a Tool framework >>> might formalize by accident: "membership" registration is an >>> example. Currently even chairs don't have to be consistent in >>> what email address they use for the very weak email-address >>> authentication we use for them. To the extent that we introduce >>> authentication and identity, they will be a significant change in >>> the IETF, where the only membership required is joining any >>> mailing list. There've been earlier parts of the thread that have >>> talked about the several authors verifying submission, and things >>> like that. I think the farthest this team could go on identity in >>> the IETF as it exists now is to authenticate chairs and editors >>> (they are* covered by ISOC's liability insurance). That's all you >>> are talking about in the recent notes, but just to be aware, >>> because the same tool is for all the i-ds, and more than half are >>> non-working-group. >> >> Yes. I'd prefer all our authorization verification tools to be >> such that they left no permanent actor registry - which is one >> reason I like using mail roundtrip verification - it doesn't >> require any registry. > > Good. I do not think any of our tools will need membership registration in the foreseeable future. Thus, I agree with Allison's original statement that we should not go further than authenticating IETF actors such as Chairs and authors. In fact, it is possible that we do not need any authentication for actors (unless you count temporary exclusive e-mail control verification as authentication). However, I think it is too early to say whether the tools framework should have a permanent registry. Without a permanent registry, we cannot record preferences. For example, we cannot record a consent of a person to have all her postings to a given WG mailing list archived. The system would have to ask for consent every time the person posts, which would be very annoying for most posters. A similar situation would exist for draft submissions -- many author preferences can be recorded once and reused for future submissions (under submitter control). I think we should have a registry. Please note that a registry does not imply identity checks. It only implies association of data with an e-mail address or URI. One person can have multiple e-mails; groups can have one e-mail, etc. And should be able to refuse to store any preferences without breaking the system. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 14:15:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17510; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Zfr-00030C-86; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:17:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2ZHd-000622-Nq; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:52:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2YQO-0002hj-Bf for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:57:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10011 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2YSa-00050H-QU for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:59:50 -0400 Received: by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 35EE937F17; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:56:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2624837E4B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:56:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094FD3800A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:56:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2YPn-0004gP-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:56:55 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:56:55 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 1 Sep 2004 Telechat Message-Id: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3971661e40967acfc35f708dd5f33760 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing No changes. 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. Maybe put the minutes online? Lets put a link from the wiki to the mail archive's copy of the minutes. (Larry?) 3. Action item review. * Larry will write a first draft of a note to send out to the ietf and wgchairs lists about the tools-discuss list. To be refined on the tools-team list. Done. Henrik has done some edits on the wiki page, Alex had some suggestions which he will add to the wiki page today. * Larry will write a summary on how to find out what people want and how to evaluate what is actually needed. Postponed for now. Let's start with doing the announcement and se what kind of reaction we get. * Henrik will send first copy of Tools inventory/prio draft to the list Thu. or Fri. Not done - doing web page summary first. Have started doing this on the tools team web page instead. Please give feedback on the web page - http://tools.levkowetz.com/ ( will be http://tools.ietf.org/ as soon as the delegation is up ). * Alex will send the first copy of ID-Submission req. draft to the list Wed. or Thu. Done, second revision due sunday this week. Good stuff. We need to specify whether we want a tools-level interface, and what kind of interface might be needed. XML output from a single submission? XML list of documents submitted? Nothing? We also need to hurry up a little bit, which means we need to prioritize the requirements so it is possible to implement a simple version soon, and a more full-blown later. Should we specify details of a cgi-interface or xml-interface? - So far tool interaction has been done behind the scene by Mike - We should say what the tool must and might be, and later say how this might be implemented, but not force this. - Don't specify exact interfaces for now. We know too little of what is needed in term of future interfaces. - It's not a must level requrement to be able to do automated submissions. And we need more experience and input to decide the priority of this. - Put in a requirement that future automation should be possible. Mention RSS feed as one future output from the submission tool. - could be done as part of this tool, or as part of the repository handling mechanism - could mention this, and get people's input on the desirability. * Henrik will follow up on creation of "tools-discuss@ietf.org" list, and on the subdomain delegation Nudged. Got a positive ack on the subdomain delegation, should come up today. No word on discuss list. * Nudge again. * Alex will re-initiate the discussion on the tools-team@ietf.org list, as a continuation of the discussion about needed tools, components, requirements etc which was started before IETF-60, but temporarily put on hold. Done. * Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the framework thoughts/summary. * Henrik fix up web page with link to charter etc, and send msg. Page set up, message will be sent. * Henrik Get wiki set up Done. * Stas Summary of tools reviewed/mentioned on the mailing list on a wiki page. - Add RSS feed to the summary of tools on the wiki - Henrik nudge Stas on this. 4. Status of drafts Nothing in addition to what's mentioned above 5. Next steps * Henrik to send announcement once prerequisites are fulfilled. * Larry to ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions 6. Any other business. Nope 7. New action items, summary * All - give feedback on http://tools.levkowetz.com/ * All - give feedback on next revision of I-D submission tool requirements * Henrik to send announcement once prerequisites are fulfilled. * Larry to ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions * Henrik to nudge Stas on tools review/discussion wiki page * Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the framework thoughts/summary. * Alex to send out next revision of draft by Sunday * Henrik to continue the inventory on the web site * Alex - add comments on the announcement draft to the wiki page ( http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/ToolsTeamAnnouncement ) * Larry, Henrik, Stas - check the announcement draft wiki page * Larry to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies of the meeting minutes. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 8 Sep, same time as today, same codes. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 14:52:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20986; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2aFo-0006BS-OR; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:54:45 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2ZvB-0005bz-MR; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:33:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2ZhY-0005Ne-4N for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:19:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17779 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2Zjl-0003EO-PR; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:21:39 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81IJD9d090210; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:19:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81IJCFh090209; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:19:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:19:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Michael Lee Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Requirement Specification - I-D Submission Tool, IETF Secretariat Part In-Reply-To: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> Message-ID: <20040901121556.H79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Michael, Thank you for generating this SRS on such a short notice! Could you please post a plain text or HTML version? It is awkward for me to read MS Word files (but I can find a MS Windows box if the document depends on Word-exclusive features). Thank you, Alex. On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Michael Lee wrote: > Dear TOOLS Team Members: > > Attached is the Secretariat's draft Software Requirements Specification (SRS) > for the I-D Submission and Posting Tool. The requirements assume that the > tool will implement the procedures that the Secretariat currently uses to > process Internet-Drafts. Please note that the SRS does not include > requirements for features that the TOOLS Team is already addressing in the > initial draft of its proposed I-D "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission," for > example, requirements for validation of I-Ds and authentication of > submitters. > > Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about this SRS. > > Regards, > > Michael. > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 15:22:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23264; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2aia-0008Oo-9d; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:24:28 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2aPx-0004bD-Cp; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:05:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2a9y-0004Gj-MY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:48:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20620 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.1.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2aC2-0005uN-8G for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:50:50 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-140.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.140] helo=foretec.com) by ns.cnri.reston.va.us with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1C2a9l-0001iY-P2; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:48:29 -0400 Message-ID: <41361968.3030606@foretec.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:48:08 -0400 From: Michael Lee User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Requirement Specification - I-D Submission Tool, IETF Secretariat Part References: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> <20040901121556.H79532@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040901121556.H79532@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080006000507090602010205" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4aebf168d9e8ffd581566781707b1a5b Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e26d1bf9418600d8d1e4bb4f1b413c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080006000507090602010205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I converted this file to Web format using MS Word. Try attached file and let me know how it works for you. Michael Alex Rousskov wrote: > Michael, > > Thank you for generating this SRS on such a short notice! Could > you please post a plain text or HTML version? It is awkward for me to > read MS Word files (but I can find a MS Windows box if the document > depends on Word-exclusive features). > > Thank you, > > Alex. > > > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Michael Lee wrote: > >> Dear TOOLS Team Members: >> >> Attached is the Secretariat's draft Software Requirements >> Specification (SRS) for the I-D Submission and Posting Tool. The >> requirements assume that the tool will implement the procedures that >> the Secretariat currently uses to process Internet-Drafts. Please >> note that the SRS does not include requirements for features that the >> TOOLS Team is already addressing in the initial draft of its proposed >> I-D "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission," for example, requirements >> for validation of I-Ds and authentication of submitters. >> >> Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about this SRS. >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael. >> > --------------080006000507090602010205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252; name="SRS_IDSUBMIT.htm" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SRS_IDSUBMIT.htm" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id OAA20620 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software Requirements Specification

Software Requirements Specification

I-D Submission Tool (IETF Secretariat Part)

 

I.     &nbs= p;            = ;  Meta Data

Field Name

Rule

I-D Title

Title of I-D should match the title in the I-D text.

Filename

Filename (draft-ietf-<wg acronym>-=85 for a WG submission and draft-<author=92s last name>-=85 for an individual submission) sh= ould match the filename in the I-D text.

Version

I-D version number (in =93NN=94 format where N is a numeric charact= er):

- should match the version number in the I-D text.

- should be either =9300=94 (for a new I-D) or a number that is one= greater than the version number of the latest version of the existing I-D (for = an update).

WG Acronym

WG acronym (only required for a WG submission) should match the WG acronym part of the filename (see =93Filename=94 above).

Number of Pages

Numeric value.

Abstract

I-D Abstract text.

List of Authors

Rules are specified in Section V below.

 

II.     &nbs= p;           I-D Text

1.      Copy and= Paste Method

=B7        A text area will be provided so that an author c= an copy and paste the entire text of the I-D that is being submitted.

o&= nbsp;      Only good for plain text.

o&= nbsp;      Required field.

2.      Upload m= ethod

=B7        An author can choose an I-D from his or her comp= uter=92s local file system and upload it.

o&= nbsp;      Only accept .txt, .ps, .pdf, and .xml file types= .

o&= nbsp;      .txt file of I-D MUST be submitted.

o&= nbsp;      Can upload up to all four different file types o= f same I-D.

o&= nbsp;      Validation NOT required for .ps, .pdf, and .xml = file types.

 

III.     &nbs= p;         I-D Approval and Posting

If an I-D is new (i.e., version -00) and = is the product of a WG, then the I-D must be approved by a WG chair in order to = be posted.=A0 In such a case, after = the author submits all of the Meta Data and the I-D text, the tool will display a sc= reen with the names of the chairs of the WG whose acronym is specified in the = Meta Data template.=A0 The author then= selects a WG chair to approve the I-D for posting.

When the WG chair has been selected, an email message will be sent to tha= t WG chair along with a randomly generated seed.=A0 The selected WG chair can simply reply to the message if he or she approves the I-D for posting. The system will verify the approval message= by matching the returned seed with the one stored in the system.=A0 Once an approval message is verifie= d, the I-D that was submitted previously will be posted and an announcement will be = sent.

Independent submissions and updates to WG submissions do not require approval by a WG chair prior to posting.=A0 These I-Ds will be posted and annou= nced immediately.

 

IV.     &nbs= p;        Changes to Revised I-D

An author is not allowed to change the fi= lename when submitting a revised I-D (i.e., version -01 or higher).=A0 If the author wants to change the f= ilename, then he or she must submit a new version -00 I-D.=A0 =A0= =A0

 

V.     &nbs= p;           Authors

Two fields will be provided for entering = an author=92s name: one for the first name and one for the last name.=A0 Five sets of these two fields will = be provided to accommodate multiple authors.=A0 When the names of the authors have been entered, the next screen will be used = to confirm, update, or enter their email address(es).=A0 The system will display the email addresses of any authors whose information has been entered previously, and will provide empty fields fo= r those who are new to the system.=A0 The submitter can confirm, update, or enter the email addresses of the author= s, as appropriate.

 

VI.     &nbs= p;        I-D Status and Version Number<= /p>

All I-Ds that are posted to the I-D datab= ase via this tool will have a status of =93Active.=94

There are five possible cases:=

1.      Submissi= on of a New I-D =96 When a version -00 I-D is posted, its status will always be =93Ac= tive.=94

2.      Submissi= on of an Update to an =93Active=94 I-D =96 When a version -01 or higher I-D that u= pdates an =93Active=94 I-D is posted, its status will always be =93Active.=94<= /o:p>

3.      Replacin= g an =93Active=94 I-D with a New I-D =96 Via this tool, one can replace an active I-D with = a new I-D with a different filename.=A0 The status of the new I-D will always be =93Active.=94 The following actions = will be performed:

    • Th= e status of the existing I-D will be changed from =93Active=94 to =93Replace= d by <filename of new I-D>.=94
    • A tombstone for the replaced I-D, whose version number is one greater= than that of the I-D itself, will be created in the I-D directory.<= /o:p>
    • Th= e replaced I-D will be moved to the I-D archives.

4.      I-D Resu= rrection =96 Via this tool, one can resurrect an I-D that was previously expired.<= span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=A0 The following actions will be perfo= rmed:

    • Th= e status of the I-D will be changed from =93Expired=94 to =93Active.=94=
    • Th= e most recent version of the I-D (i.e., one version before the tombstone) = will be restored to the I-D directory from the I-D archives.<= /span>
    • Th= e tombstone will be deleted.

5.      I-D Resu= rrection with New Version =96 Via this tool, one can resurrect and update an I-D t= hat was previously expired.=A0 If one sub= mits a revised version of an expired I-D, then the following actions will be performed:

=B7        The status of the I-D will be changed from =93Ex= pired=94 to =93Active.=94

=B7        The updated I-D will be assigned the same versio= n number as the tombstone that was created when the I-D was expired.

=B7        The updated I-D will replace the tombstone in th= e I-D directory.

Via this tool, the author or the IESG can withdraw an =93Active=94 I-D.=A0 = The following actions will be performed:

=B7        The status of the I-D will be changed from =93Ac= tive=94 to =93Withdrawn by the submitter=94 or =93Withdrawn by the IETF,=94 as appro= priate.

=B7        A tombstone for the withdrawn I-D, whose version number is one greater than that of the I-D itself, will be created in the= I-D directory.

=B7        The withdrawn I-D will be moved to the I-D archi= ves.

 

VII.     &nbs= p;      Dates

1.      New Date= =96 Date that version -00 was submitted. This date will be automatically set to the dat= e that the I-D is being submitted.

2.      Revision= Date =96 Date that revised I-D was submitted. This will be automatically set to th= e date that the I-D is being submitted.

3.      Expirati= on Date =96 Date that the I-D expires.=A0 The= system will calculate this date by adding 185 days (equivalent to 6 months) to t= he date that the I-D was submitted.

 

VIII.     &nbs= p;   Requesting Publication via I-D Submission Tool (Suggested Feature)

 

Using this tool, one can request that an = I-D be published as an RFC and added to the I-D Tracker in state =93Publication Requested.=94 Only WG chairs would be able to request publication of I-Ds= that are products of their WGs.=A0 Ind= ependent authors would be able to request publication of standards-track documents= and BCPS.=A0 If the TOOLS Team is int= erested in including this feature in the I-D submission tool, then the Secretariat w= ill provide more detailed specifications.

--------------080006000507090602010205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --------------080006000507090602010205-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 16:23:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28542; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2bg5-00053F-Cj; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:25:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2b62-0007Xm-1H; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:48:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2ask-0002Vw-LA for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:34:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24774 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2auy-0000ul-TF; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:37:18 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81JYt9d093487; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:34:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81JYt6V093486; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:34:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:34:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Michael Lee Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Requirement Specification - I-D Submission Tool, IETF Secretariat Part In-Reply-To: <41361968.3030606@foretec.com> Message-ID: <20040901133150.E79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> <20040901121556.H79532@measurement-factory.com> <41361968.3030606@foretec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Michael Lee wrote: > I converted this file to Web format using MS Word. > Try attached file and let me know how it works for you. Thank you, I can read it. I will start working on incorporating your requirements and reconciling our differences in our ID Submission draft. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 16:23:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28560; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2bg8-00053N-0J; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:26:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2b64-0007a1-DI; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:48:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2atA-0002pe-Fm for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:35:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24853 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2avO-0000uj-Vx for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:37:43 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A0A5C37ED5; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:34:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7C337E47; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:34:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B20237E51; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:34:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2asc-0002PD-Mq; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:34:50 +0200 Message-ID: <4136245B.8060203@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:34:51 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lee Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Requirement Specification - I-D Submission Tool, IETF Secretariat Part References: <4135DB3B.1030906@foretec.com> <20040901121556.H79532@measurement-factory.com> <41361968.3030606@foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <41361968.3030606@foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 1c0c3d540ad9f95212b1c2a9a2cc2595 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 90e8b0e368115979782f8b3d811b226b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Lee wrote: > I converted this file to Web format using MS Word. > Try attached file and let me know how it works for you. Looks good to me, Michael. Much more easily accessible. And Thunderbird converted the HTML to text in turn, for this reply (see below :) Henrik > Michael >=20 >=20 > Alex Rousskov wrote: >=20 >> Michael, >> >> Thank you for generating this SRS on such a short notice! Could=20 >> you please post a plain text or HTML version? It is awkward for me to=20 >> read MS Word files (but I can find a MS Windows box if the document=20 >> depends on Word-exclusive features). >> >> Thank you, >> >> Alex. >> >> >> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Michael Lee wrote: >> >>> Dear TOOLS Team Members: >>> >>> Attached is the Secretariat's draft Software Requirements=20 >>> Specification (SRS) for the I-D Submission and Posting Tool. The=20 >>> requirements assume that the tool will implement the procedures that=20 >>> the Secretariat currently uses to process Internet-Drafts. Please=20 >>> note that the SRS does not include requirements for features that the= =20 >>> TOOLS Team is already addressing in the initial draft of its proposed= =20 >>> I-D "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission," for example, requirements=20 >>> for validation of I-Ds and authentication of submitters. >>> >>> Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about this S= RS. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Michael. >>> >> >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > *Software Requirements Specification* >=20 > I-D Submission Tool (IETF Secretariat Part) >=20 > =20 >=20 > I. Meta Data >=20 > *Field Name* >=20 > =09 >=20 > *Rule* >=20 > I-D Title >=20 > =09 >=20 > Title of I-D should match the title in the I-D text. >=20 > Filename >=20 > =09 >=20 > Filename (draft-ietf--=85 for a WG submission and=20 > draft--=85 for an individual submission) should m= atch=20 > the filename in the I-D text. >=20 > Version >=20 > =09 >=20 > I-D version number (in =93NN=94 format where N is a numeric character): >=20 > - should match the version number in the I-D text. >=20 > - should be either =9300=94 (for a new I-D) or a number that is one gre= ater=20 > than the version number of the latest version of the existing I-D (for=20 > an update). >=20 > WG Acronym >=20 > =09 >=20 > WG acronym (only required for a WG submission) should match the WG=20 > acronym part of the filename (see =93Filename=94 above). >=20 > Number of Pages >=20 > =09 >=20 > Numeric value. >=20 > Abstract >=20 > =09 >=20 > I-D Abstract text. >=20 > List of Authors >=20 > =09 >=20 > Rules are specified in Section V below. >=20 > =20 >=20 > II. I-D Text >=20 > 1. Copy and Paste Method >=20 > =B7 A text area will be provided so that an author can copy and=20 > paste the entire text of the I-D that is being submitted. >=20 > o Only good for plain text. >=20 > o Required field. >=20 > 2. Upload method >=20 > =B7 An author can choose an I-D from his or her computer=92s loc= al=20 > file system and upload it. >=20 > o Only accept .txt, .ps, .pdf, and .xml file types. >=20 > o .txt file of I-D MUST be submitted. >=20 > o Can upload up to all four different file types of same I-D. >=20 > o Validation NOT required for .ps, .pdf, and .xml file types. >=20 > =20 >=20 > III. I-D Approval and Posting >=20 > If an I-D is new (i.e., version -00) and is the product of a WG, then=20 > the I-D must be approved by a WG chair in order to be posted. In such = a=20 > case, after the author submits all of the Meta Data and the I-D text,=20 > the tool will display a screen with the names of the chairs of the WG=20 > whose acronym is specified in the Meta Data template. The author then=20 > selects a WG chair to approve the I-D for posting. >=20 > When the WG chair has been selected, an email message will be sent to=20 > that WG chair along with a randomly generated seed. The selected WG=20 > chair can simply reply to the message if he or she approves the I-D for= =20 > posting. The system will verify the approval message by matching the=20 > returned seed with the one stored in the system. Once an approval=20 > message is verified, the I-D that was submitted previously will be=20 > posted and an announcement will be sent. >=20 > Independent submissions and updates to WG submissions do not require=20 > approval by a WG chair prior to posting. These I-Ds will be posted and= =20 > announced immediately. >=20 > =20 >=20 > IV. Changes to Revised I-D >=20 > An author is not allowed to change the filename when submitting a=20 > revised I-D (i.e., version -01 or higher). If the author wants to=20 > change the filename, then he or she must submit a new version -00 I-D. = =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > V. Authors >=20 > Two fields will be provided for entering an author=92s name: one for th= e=20 > first name and one for the last name. Five sets of these two fields=20 > will be provided to accommodate multiple authors. When the names of th= e=20 > authors have been entered, the next screen will be used to confirm,=20 > update, or enter their email address(es). The system will display the=20 > email addresses of any authors whose information has been entered=20 > previously, and will provide empty fields for those who are new to the=20 > system. The submitter can confirm, update, or enter the email addresse= s=20 > of the authors, as appropriate. >=20 > =20 >=20 > VI. I-D Status and Version Number >=20 > All I-Ds that are posted to the I-D database via this tool will have a=20 > status of =93Active.=94 >=20 > There are five possible cases: >=20 > 1. Submission of a New I-D =96 When a version -00 I-D is posted, i= ts=20 > status will always be =93Active.=94 >=20 > 2. Submission of an Update to an =93Active=94 I-D =96 When a versi= on -01=20 > or higher I-D that updates an =93Active=94 I-D is posted, its status wi= ll=20 > always be =93Active.=94 >=20 > 3. Replacing an =93Active=94 I-D with a New I-D =96 Via this tool,= one=20 > can replace an active I-D with a new I-D with a different filename. Th= e=20 > status of the new I-D will always be =93Active.=94 The following action= s=20 > will be performed: >=20 > * The status of the existing I-D will be changed from =93Acti= ve=94 > to =93Replaced by .=94 > * A tombstone for the replaced I-D, whose version number is > one greater than that of the I-D itself, will be created in > the I-D directory. > * The replaced I-D will be moved to the I-D archives. >=20 > 4. I-D Resurrection =96 Via this tool, one can resurrect an I-D th= at=20 > was previously expired. The following actions will be performed: >=20 > * The status of the I-D will be changed from =93Expired=94 to > =93Active.=94 > * The most recent version of the I-D (i.e., one version befor= e > the tombstone) will be restored to the I-D directory from > the I-D archives. > * The tombstone will be deleted. >=20 > 5. I-D Resurrection with New Version =96 Via this tool, one can=20 > resurrect and update an I-D that was previously expired. If one submit= s=20 > a revised version of an expired I-D, then the following actions will be= =20 > performed: >=20 > =B7 The status of the I-D will be changed from =93Expired=94 to = =93Active.=94 >=20 > =B7 The updated I-D will be assigned the same version number as = the=20 > tombstone that was created when the I-D was expired. >=20 > =B7 The updated I-D will replace the tombstone in the I-D direct= ory. >=20 > Via this tool, the author or the IESG can withdraw an =93Active=94 I-D.= The=20 > following actions will be performed: >=20 > =B7 The status of the I-D will be changed from =93Active=94 to=20 > =93Withdrawn by the submitter=94 or =93Withdrawn by the IETF,=94 as app= ropriate. >=20 > =B7 A tombstone for the withdrawn I-D, whose version number is o= ne=20 > greater than that of the I-D itself, will be created in the I-D directo= ry. >=20 > =B7 The withdrawn I-D will be moved to the I-D archives. >=20 > =20 >=20 > VII. Dates >=20 > 1. New Date =96 Date that version -00 was submitted. This date wil= l=20 > be automatically set to the date that the I-D is being submitted. >=20 > 2. Revision Date =96 Date that revised I-D was submitted. This wil= l=20 > be automatically set to the date that the I-D is being submitted. >=20 > 3. Expiration Date =96 Date that the I-D expires. The system will= =20 > calculate this date by adding 185 days (equivalent to 6 months) to the=20 > date that the I-D was submitted. >=20 > =20 >=20 > VIII. Requesting Publication via I-D Submission Tool (Suggested= =20 > Feature) >=20 > =20 >=20 > Using this tool, one can request that an I-D be published as an RFC and= =20 > added to the I-D Tracker in state =93Publication Requested.=94 Only WG=20 > chairs would be able to request publication of I-Ds that are products o= f=20 > their WGs. Independent authors would be able to request publication of= =20 > standards-track documents and BCPS. If the TOOLS Team is interested in= =20 > including this feature in the I-D submission tool, then the Secretariat= =20 > will provide more detailed specifications. >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 17:20:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05873; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2cZ1-0002Uz-5N; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:22:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2bfp-0002x0-F3; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:25:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2bRK-0005P3-GM for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:10:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27956 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2bTZ-00046q-4f for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:13:02 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81KAe9d095062 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:10:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81KAesA095061; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:10:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:10:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040901133743.U79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Subject: [Tools-team] tools site feedback X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da > * All - give feedback on http://tools.levkowetz.com/ Thanks for starting working on these pages. IMO, good site would be important for attracting more/better feedback from IETFers, and that is one of the biggest challenges we face. Just some random comments: - Team drafts were difficult to find for me, and I suspect so would be the Charter for some visitors. Since the whole site is the TOOLs team site, the "Team" menu item seems like an extra level of indirection. I expected to see just the member list there. How about moving Team menu subitems up one level? - Rename "Drafts" menu item to "Documents"? - "Feedback" also confused me. I expected to find a page that explains how to suggest a tool, etc. but found a list of subitems. Which one should I click to provide feedback? I would recommend a short page clearly explaining how and where to suggest new tools. We can have three Feedback pages: "Suggest new tool", "Review existing tool", and "Other". The last one pointing to the public mailing list and membership page. - I would store "future tools" information in corresponding "Tools" pages instead of having the user to guess whether the tool they are looking for is "current" or "future". Also, an "all tools" page may be useful for those who are not sure about the categories we force on them; can that be auto-generated from other tools pages (or vice versa)? - The bulleted list items are too long and fuzzy for the front page, IMHO. I would replace them with 2-4 bullets explaining what TOOLS is for. "Feedback and guidance during the development of software tools" is rather vague. A visitor needs to know immediately whether they are in the right place. Their attention span is short. What do we produce? What do we want from IETFers? Do we develop tools or fix bugs in tools? - Clicking on W3C XHTML icon results in a "This page is not Valid" page. Is it important to declare compliance with one of many standards these pages are using? - When I click on a menu subitem, I get the right page, but the subitem disappears (I get top-level menu again). Can the menu expansion be preserved so that I know where I am on the site? HTH, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:00:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08665; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dBv-00062u-6a; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:02:56 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2caa-0005zf-NG; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:24:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2bjK-0005uz-Oj for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:29:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29269 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2blZ-0005bg-L7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:31:38 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD55761BB0; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30333-07; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0148061B89; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:48:06 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Jorge Contreras Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Tools team query: Is there an obligation to know who I-D submissions are coming from? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorge, question about the impact of IPR statements on Internet-Draft submission procedures: Given that the submitter of a draft makes certain commitments to IPR policies.... does the IETF have any requirement to know the identity of a draft submitter? does the IETF have any obligation to attempt to verify that a submitter is who he/she claims to be? I would like to allow for publication of drafts that appear anonymous - but I'm uncertain whether or not there's a requirement that the secretariat can trace back who made the IPR promises on an anonymous draft..... It would be nice if we could just accept what people say, no matter what they say - but that may be too easy :-) Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:00:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08686; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dBy-000636-HP; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:02:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2cab-00061a-T2; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:24:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2bjL-0005v1-My for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:29:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29272 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2bla-0005bh-Em for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:31:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AB161B89; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30306-09; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE4961BAF; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:28:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:08:07 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , Allison Mankin Subject: Six-month timeout (Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication) Message-ID: <778D60BA2C16F1D1F0CFD744@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20040831162221.P20928@measurement-factory.com> References: <200408312218.i7VMIY9d041367@measurement-factory.com> <20040831162221.P20928@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 31. august 2004 16:31 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: > >> Hi, everyone, > > Hi Allison, > > It is nice to hear a fresh voice :-). Just one quick clarification > regarding your statement below, if I may. > >> - The IETF also has pretty formally decided that it cannot retain >> old drafts, and so a tool can't change the actual repository policy >> without getting into modifying the standards process. But I do >> think a cvs-like and diff-supporting tool could be cool and >> important. > > Do you think that archiving older versions until the latest draft version > expires would violate the above formal decision? Or, as a minor > variation, archiving all unexpired versions of a draft? Providing an > online "what has changed since I last checked" interface would be very > useful, and I wonder if current IETF policies can accommodate that? Clarifying: All I-Ds promise to expire in 6 months. Whenever we have discussed this in public, people have stated that changing this retroactively would be breaking that promise (despite the non-official mirrors). I believe we need to change this policy - most likely not by modifying the existing repository (I think having 6500 I-Ds is a more manageable "working set" than the 21.000 in my private "no-deletion" directory), but by adding a "historical" archive - with diff tools. But that's not something the tools team can decide - someone from the tools team can, if they want to, write up the proposal and push it in front of the community, but it's not the tools team's job to make that determination. > > Does anybody know where is the non-archival policy for drafts formally > documented? > > Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months > and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any > time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference > material or to cite them other than a "work in progress." I've traced this back on the wayback machine to October 1999 - but I suspect that it's been unchanged since before the concept of BCP was formulated (RFC 1818, August 1995). It's an OLD policy.... _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:01:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08862; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dD7-00065D-W8; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:04:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2cbA-0006AK-No; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:24:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2bvd-00013b-A6 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:42:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00132 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2bxt-0006lz-6z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:44:21 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Kfw9d096619; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81KfwHE096618; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:41:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand In-Reply-To: <778D60BA2C16F1D1F0CFD744@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: <20040901143140.N79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <200408312218.i7VMIY9d041367@measurement-factory.com> <20040831162221.P20928@measurement-factory.com> <778D60BA2C16F1D1F0CFD744@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Six-month timeout X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Harald, A question in TOOLs scope: Can TOOLs draft recommend or rely on archiving UNexpired versions of drafts as a short-term gradual-progress solution? That is, publishing a new draft version would not make the old version disappear and would allow generating diffs. Once an old version expires, it becomes invisible and not diff-able against. Would that violate the expiration promise? I do not think so. Would that violate drafts non-archival status? Probably not, and that status does not seem to be required by IETF rules anyway (expiration is). And a question out of TOOLs scope: When discussing long-term policy, can we separate ID expiration from ID archiving? Obsoleted RFCs do not disappear from IETF web site. Expired IDs do not have to. Thanks, Alex. On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > --On 31. august 2004 16:31 -0600 Alex Rousskov > wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: >> >>> Hi, everyone, >> >> Hi Allison, >> >> It is nice to hear a fresh voice :-). Just one quick clarification >> regarding your statement below, if I may. >> >>> - The IETF also has pretty formally decided that it cannot retain >>> old drafts, and so a tool can't change the actual repository policy >>> without getting into modifying the standards process. But I do >>> think a cvs-like and diff-supporting tool could be cool and >>> important. >> >> Do you think that archiving older versions until the latest draft version >> expires would violate the above formal decision? Or, as a minor >> variation, archiving all unexpired versions of a draft? Providing an >> online "what has changed since I last checked" interface would be very >> useful, and I wonder if current IETF policies can accommodate that? > > Clarifying: All I-Ds promise to expire in 6 months. > Whenever we have discussed this in public, people have stated that changing > this retroactively would be breaking that promise (despite the non-official > mirrors). > > I believe we need to change this policy - most likely not by modifying the > existing repository (I think having 6500 I-Ds is a more manageable "working > set" than the 21.000 in my private "no-deletion" directory), but by adding a > "historical" archive - with diff tools. > > But that's not something the tools team can decide - someone from the tools > team can, if they want to, write up the proposal and push it in front of the > community, but it's not the tools team's job to make that determination. >> >> Does anybody know where is the non-archival policy for drafts formally >> documented? > > >> >> Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months >> and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any >> time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference >> material or to cite them other than a "work in progress." > > I've traced this back on the wayback machine to October 1999 - but I suspect > that it's been unchanged since before the concept of BCP was formulated (RFC > 1818, August 1995). > > It's an OLD policy.... > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:02:33 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08969; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dDt-00066m-SN; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:04:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2cbN-0006Ff-NM; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:25:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2c1J-0002ae-BE for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:47:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00528 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2c3Z-00077c-7I for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:50:13 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81Klj9d096859; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81KljaS096858; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] draft announcement of tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <0I3600LGB2S8TZ@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <20040901141500.H79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3600LGB2S8TZ@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Larry, After a few attempts at suggesting specific fixes, I finally realized what my real problem with the drafted announcement is. The announcement is fine, but I believe we need a very different _kind_ of announcement. Instead of announcing a yet another IETF mailing list, we should explicitly solicit IETFers feedback. Something along these lines: Subject: IETF tools suggestions needed IETFers, Do you know of a tool that would make your IETF work easier? Have feedback about current IETF automation efforts? The TOOLs team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general comments, to be massaged into a series of tool specifications. TOOLs specifications will then be used to implement or adopt software for IETF. The first item on TOOLs list is the automation of draft submission to allow for quick and painless validation and posting of Internet-Drafts. The first document describing the new draft submission tool is at http://put-idsubmission-draft-url-here-once-posted What should we work on next? Please visit a list of pending tools and send us additions as well as priority preferences: http://put-future-tools-page-url-here Please send all TOOLs-related feedback to tools-discuss@ietf.org, a newly formed mailing list. TOOLs team internal deliberations can be viewed at http://our-mailing-list-archive-url/ Thank you, IETF TOOLs Team. The above is just to illustrate what I am after. I am sure your wording would be much better. Do we want a "new list" announcement or "send us suggestions" announcement? Sending both would seem like a waste of folks attention. Thanks, Alex. On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > To: internet announce mailing list, wgchairs > from: someone other than me > Subject: IETF 'tools' team started, new list tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations > and structure, a 'tools' group has been chartered to > develop a requirements for electronic tools to aid > in the IETF operations. > > This message announces a public discussion list, > tools-discuss@ietf.org > > for the community to gathering and discuss > requirements, suggestions, and priorities for > IETF-related tools. > > Briefly, the charter of the group > http:/// ... > > focuses primarily on tools to improve the interface > between IETF administration and the broader community, > and secondarily to aid in the operation of individual > working groups and the tasks of standards development. > > The tools group aims to coordinate with the ongoing > developments in IETF administrative realignment. > > Recently, many new tools have already been > started and are in use; this group will continue with > the process. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/show_tasks.cgi?mode=all > > Web site: > http://tools.ietf.org > > > Schedule: > The group will initially focus on additional tools (not > already specified or in progress) for use by the > Secretariat. > > An draft set of requirements for an Internet Drafts > Submission Tool will be posted shortly. > > Other secretariat tools are expected to be specified > over the next six months. We will put together > a list and priority schedule within that time frame. > > The tools team may also survey the community for > input on priorities, requirements, and feedback > on currently deployed tools. > > Internet Drafts in preparation: > Internet Drafts Submissions Tool > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:19:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11665; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dUH-0007dr-SO; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:21:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2dIY-0001FE-40; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:09:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2cq7-0002wD-18 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:40:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07216 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2csM-0004FH-K7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:42:43 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 91BEB37E47; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CB737E46 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7654637E4E for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C2cpa-0002vS-B8 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:39:50 +0200 Message-ID: <413641A7.2040500@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:39:51 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-team@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] tools.ietf.org is up X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The delegation of tools.ietf.org is in place, and http://tools.ietf.org/ is up. I've already received some feedback on the pages, and will adjust them as comments come in. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 18:25:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12268; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2dZd-00089M-F6; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:27:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2dIh-0001OX-Cz; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:09:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2d0h-0006Os-Dg for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:51:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07672 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2d2w-0005A2-T3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:53:40 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81LpC9d099898; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:51:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81LpCMe099897; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:51:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:51:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040901154109.W79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Subject: [Tools-team] new wiki page: IETF Infrastructure X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > * Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the > framework thoughts/summary. I did not find an existing page and created a new one: http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/IetfInfrastructure?action=show The page summarizes the discussion we had on this list. I merged Harald and my own postings about major infrastructure items and added a few comments from various e-mails on that thread. Feel free to change/add further, of course. For this information to make sense long-term and be usable from our drafts, we would probably need to describe details of each infrastructure item interface. BTW, I tried to link to it from the front wiki page, but wiki uses a http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/IetfInfrastructure link. That link, for unknown to me reason, does not work (pretends the page does not exist). I am sure I screwed something up given my lack of wiki knowledge. Please fix if you can. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 19:27:27 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16628; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2eY1-0004lC-Av; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:29:53 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2eQ9-0005fW-QC; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:21:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2e2P-0004N8-I8 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:57:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14506 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob3.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.213] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2e4f-0002HK-Bo for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:59:30 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob3.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:56:57 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i81MuQbA015622; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81MuPks006666; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-130-169.corp.adobe.com [153.32.130.169]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I3D001IQX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:56:25 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication In-reply-to: <20040901093941.T79532@measurement-factory.com> To: "'Alex Rousskov'" , "'Allison Mankin'" Message-id: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSQTHzdNSWiP2dQSHGVrnQTK5ztTQAKiTUg X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: tools-team@ietf.org, "'Henrik Levkowetz'" X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Just a thought: if we have a mechanism for asking people for permission before we post their email to the mailing list archive, we might consider also including the NOTE WELL notice. Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:tools-team-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex Rousskov > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:56 AM > To: Allison Mankin > Cc: tools-team@ietf.org; Henrik Levkowetz > Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Allison Mankin wrote: > > > I do see that. So my suggestion to Alex in my response to him was > > to have an explicit experimental process, using the "July 14" > > approach, acknowledging that there's a partial archive involved. > > I agree that making our intent explicit is the best way to proceed. I > think it is worth the effort to bring the case for temporary ID > archiving to IETF/IESG, and I volunteer to lead that if > needed/appropriate. > > >>> - Some things IETF hasn't formally decided, but a Tool framework > >>> might formalize by accident: "membership" registration is an > >>> example. Currently even chairs don't have to be consistent in > >>> what email address they use for the very weak email-address > >>> authentication we use for them. To the extent that we introduce > >>> authentication and identity, they will be a significant change in > >>> the IETF, where the only membership required is joining any > >>> mailing list. There've been earlier parts of the thread > that have > >>> talked about the several authors verifying submission, and things > >>> like that. I think the farthest this team could go on > identity in > >>> the IETF as it exists now is to authenticate chairs and editors > >>> (they are* covered by ISOC's liability insurance). > That's all you > >>> are talking about in the recent notes, but just to be aware, > >>> because the same tool is for all the i-ds, and more than half are > >>> non-working-group. > >> > >> Yes. I'd prefer all our authorization verification tools to be > >> such that they left no permanent actor registry - which is one > >> reason I like using mail roundtrip verification - it doesn't > >> require any registry. > > > > Good. > > I do not think any of our tools will need membership registration in > the foreseeable future. Thus, I agree with Allison's original > statement that we should not go further than authenticating IETF > actors such as Chairs and authors. In fact, it is possible that we do > not need any authentication for actors (unless you count temporary > exclusive e-mail control verification as authentication). > > However, I think it is too early to say whether the tools framework > should have a permanent registry. Without a permanent registry, we > cannot record preferences. For example, we cannot record a consent of > a person to have all her postings to a given WG mailing list > archived. > The system would have to ask for consent every time the person posts, > which would be very annoying for most posters. A similar situation > would exist for draft submissions -- many author preferences can be > recorded once and reused for future submissions (under submitter > control). I think we should have a registry. > > Please note that a registry does not imply identity checks. It only > implies association of data with an e-mail address or URI. One person > can have multiple e-mails; groups can have one e-mail, etc. > And should > be able to refuse to store any preferences without breaking the > system. > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 1 19:44:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17374; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2eos-00067l-IN; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:47:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2eVf-0002G7-22; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:27:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2eNU-0003lF-1W for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:18:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15746 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2ePi-0003y1-D0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:21:17 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i81NIg9d003959; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:18:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i81NIgvL003958; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:18:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:18:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication In-Reply-To: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > Just a thought: if we have a mechanism for asking people for > permission before we post their email to the mailing list archive, > we might consider also including the NOTE WELL notice. NOTE WELL (RFC 3667) considers IETF Contribution "any statement made within the context of an IETF activity" (including "electronic communications made at any time or place, which are addressed to [...] any list functioning under IETF auspices"). RFC 3667 requires the Contributor to "grant a license [...] to copy, publish, display and distribute the Contribution as part of the IETF Standards Process". If mailing list archive is a part of the "IETF Standards Process", then we only need to request consent to NOTE WELL policies as archiving of list messages would be covered by that. If mailing list archive is NOT a part of the "IETF Standards Process", then we need to request consent to both NOTE WELL policies and list archival policies. My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether the list is being archived! Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 2 05:53:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA17164; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2oJy-0002c4-Rg; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:56:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2o1g-0000nV-Jt; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:37:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2nuz-0004aR-V6 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:30:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15855 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 05:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2nxL-0000hn-MQ for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:32:36 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 821D037EF2; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:29:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AC937E42; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:29:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DAAF37E57; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:29:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2nuR-0007yB-00; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:29:35 +0200 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:29:31 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication Message-Id: <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 1 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: ... > My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is > a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only > need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether > the list is being archived! Makes sense to me. Could this be part of the confirmation mail sent out by the mailing list on subscription? Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 2 12:23:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15776; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2uPL-00015D-1N; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:25:55 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2u3Q-00039E-Eg; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:03:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C2ttB-0003wq-B2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:52:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13939 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C2tva-00076Z-JF for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:55:11 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82Fqc9d041830; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i82Fqc9C041829; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:52:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication In-Reply-To: <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040902094741.M39227@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Alex, > > On Wednesday, 1 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > ... >> My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is >> a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only >> need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether >> the list is being archived! > > Makes sense to me. Could this be part of the confirmation mail sent > out by the mailing list on subscription? It should, but that may not be sufficient for lists that do not require subscription to post messages and if we want to periodically check consent of posting subscribers. In short, before posting a message, the system should solicit consent if no consent has been given [recently]. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 2 18:46:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20037; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C30O3-0007xq-Jb; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:49:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C30IC-0007Vo-8H; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:42:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C30C7-0004mQ-Ps for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:36:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19558 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C30Ea-0007G9-TX for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:39:13 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i82MaV8W007168 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:36:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i82MaVXm007167; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:36:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:36:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-861457109-1094161882=:474" Content-ID: <20040902155123.A474@measurement-factory.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d2b4898a2beddf410d6e76902566f557 Subject: [Tools-team] (no subject) X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 40bdf3575eb53950a5a1f42012dfaab5 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-861457109-1094161882=:474 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; FORMAT=flowed Content-ID: <20040902155123.U474@measurement-factory.com> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > * Alex to send out next revision of draft by Sunday The plain text rendering of the next revision is attached to this e-mail. This is a major rewrite, following initial feedback from the team and Secretariat. The draft now documents a specific set of pages and supporting actions. Many details are still missing, but I hope that overall organization of the draft will not change much. I would like to find a way to explicitly mark features so that we can propose implementation stages/priorities. That's probably the most important missing piece right now. > * All - give feedback on next revision of I-D submission tool > requirements High-level feedback is especially helpful at this stage. In particular, I am worried that the toolset design currently conflicts with my interpretation of Secretariat preferences: My understanding is that Secretariat SRS uses a "give us metadata and draft; we will validate metadata and then publish" approach. This approach maximizes submitter work and minimizes tool utilization. This means that the submitter needs to fill out a large number of metadata fields with information that, from the submitter point of view, is already in the draft. This may cause the perception that the automation actually requires more effort from the submitter than good-old submissions via Secretariat, where only draft text was required. Also, if the tool trusts the submitter, the published metadata is less likely to match the draft. Proposed toolset currently uses the opposite "give us the draft; we will validate and extract as much metadata as we can, you validate what we extracted and fill in the gaps, we publish" approach. This approach minimizes submitter work and maximizes tool utilization. This means that the submitter needs to submit just the draft text to get almost every validation possible. A little extra information (not available from the draft; e.g. submitter e-mail) is needed to actually publish the draft. Furthermore, the toolset would not let ordinary submitter to auto-publish drafts that required adjustments to extracted metadata. Such drafts must be submitted to Secretariat. Secretariat would verify that manual adjustments did not cause conflicts and use the toolset to force posting of the draft. This restriction is meant to (a) minimize the number of metadata-draft conflicts caused by sloppy submitters and (b) provide an incentive to Secretariat and IETFers to improve draft validation tools (so that they can extract metadata reliably to avoid submission via Secretariat). Both Secretariat and toolset design end up with the same set of metadata fields. The difference is in who fills those fields (submitter or software) and, hence, in consistency of filled information. Please see draft for details. Which approach is better? Thank you, Alex. --0-861457109-1094161882=:474 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; NAME="id-v1.9.txt" Content-ID: <20040902155122.Q474@measurement-factory.com> Content-Description: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-00b.txt Content-Disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME="id-v1.9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 DQoNClRPT0xTIHRlYW0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBBLiBSb3Vzc2tvdg0KSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJh ZnQgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFRoZSBNZWFz dXJlbWVudCBGYWN0b3J5DQpFeHBpcmVzOiBNYXJjaCAzLCAyMDA1ICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDIsIDIwMDQN Cg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgUmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBJRVRGIERyYWZ0 IFN1Ym1pc3Npb24gVG9vbHNldA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGRyYWZ0 LWlldGYtdG9vbHMtZHJhZnQtc3VibWlzc2lvbg0KDQpTdGF0dXMgb2YgdGhp cyBNZW1vDQoNCiAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXMgYW4gSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJh ZnQgYW5kIGlzIHN1YmplY3QgdG8gYWxsIHByb3Zpc2lvbnMNCiAgIG9mIHNl Y3Rpb24gMyBvZiBSRkMgMzY2Ny4gIEJ5IHN1Ym1pdHRpbmcgdGhpcyBJbnRl 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helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C37i6-00020n-7R; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:38:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C37aJ-0007Zq-0O for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:30:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00636 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C37cq-0001ZG-1o for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:32:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA36961BDA; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23084-04; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:29:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (145.80-202-211.nextgentel.com [80.202.211.145]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC9A61BAF; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:29:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:29:32 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: "Contreras, Jorge" Message-ID: <10DAE581A9E913E062E2CB3C@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <93DB9233B42C2844B0A1B7E8B94D99C302798DF9@HDBOSMX.haleanddorr.com> References: <93DB9233B42C2844B0A1B7E8B94D99C302798DF9@HDBOSMX.haleanddorr.co m> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Tools team query: Is there an obligation to know who I-D submissions are coming from? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On fredag, september 03, 2004 01:49:33 -0400 "Contreras, Jorge" wrote: > > Harald, > > Here's a quick thought from vacation. I can do more on returning to the > office next Th: > > I believe that all ID submissions must include the author's name. > Presumably this is to help readers understand the IP situation, among > other things. Giving false name info or no name info would be a violation > of the submission rules. Thus, I could see a patent holder having a > tough time enforcing his patents in a standard if he lied about his > identity in submitting the ID. I can see that! > There is no overt duty by the IETF to verify accuracy of name > information. However, if this info appears blatantly false (eg drafts > submitted by Micky Mouse), or if someone brings a falsity to IETF's > attention, or if the info is just missing, then I think the organization > could have a duty to seek to get the info corrected/completed before > allowing the draft to be published. With missing info, I can see the secretariat (or a mechanical tool) enforcing that. It's harder to determine "blatantly false" - especially if you want to do it without a human in the loop. Would it be appropriate to just institute a procedure where the secretariat would remove an I-D from the directories when someone pointed out that its authorship is blatantly false be enough? > The theory being that the IETF needs > to maintain some level of compliance with its rules in order for them to > be meaningful. > > If IETF chose not to require such correction/confirmation, then I don't > see any large liability, but do see an erosion of the value of the IETF > rules. > > Is there a thought that anonymous submissions be allowed as part of the > IETF rules? If so, then the above concern goes away, since there would > be no rule violation. Some anonymous contributions have been part of IETF tradition (the draft-ymbk series were traditionally published under the name of a long-dead mathematican; there are others.) > By the way, the submitter of an ID is bound by the IPR rules, whether or > not he tells the truth! So that is not a concern. That's good! _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 05:20:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09922; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3AI6-0006KH-95; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 05:23:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C39ru-0002e0-9J; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:56:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C39ZU-0004q9-I0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:37:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07630 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 04:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C39c3-00032J-D3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:40:03 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6617D37F35; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:36:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D8637E42; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:36:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC0037E4E; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:36:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C39Yx-0004BU-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:36:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:36:51 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] tools site feedback Message-Id: <20040903103651.3c3dbee4@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040901133743.U79532@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040901133743.U79532@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, Thanks for feedback. I've started doing changes based on most of your comments, but after the 10th iteration I decided to leave the current page up till I have something reasonably stable, and do the work offline. On Wednesday, 1 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > Thanks for starting working on these pages. IMO, good site would be > important for attracting more/better feedback from IETFers, and that > is one of the biggest challenges we face. > > Just some random comments: > > - Team drafts were difficult to find for me, and I > suspect so would be the Charter for some visitors. > Since the whole site is the TOOLs team site, the > "Team" menu item seems like an extra level of > indirection. I expected to see just the member > list there. How about moving Team menu subitems up > one level? Can be done, although I expect people to visit the site mainly for the tools, not for our drafts. But I'm going to try to flatten the whole menu, so as not to need the 2 levels you see now. > - Rename "Drafts" menu item to "Documents"? Mmm. Not sure that is better. More generic yes, but less specific. > - "Feedback" also confused me. I expected to find > a page that explains how to suggest a tool, etc. > but found a list of subitems. Which one should I > click to provide feedback? I would recommend a > short page clearly explaining how and where to suggest > new tools. We can have three Feedback pages: > "Suggest new tool", "Review existing tool", and > "Other". The last one pointing to the public mailing list > and membership page. Ok, I'll do something about this > - I would store "future tools" information in corresponding > "Tools" pages instead of having the user to guess whether > the tool they are looking for is "current" or "future". Yes, that was the other way of doing it that I considered. I'll give it a try. > Also, an "all tools" page may be useful for those who > are not sure about the categories we force on them; can > that be auto-generated from other tools pages (or vice > versa)? Good idea. > - The bulleted list items are too long and fuzzy for the > front page, IMHO. I would replace them with 2-4 bullets > explaining what TOOLS is for. "Feedback and guidance during > the development of software tools" is rather vague. A > visitor needs to know immediately whether they are in > the right place. Their attention span is short. > What do we produce? What do we want from IETFers? > Do we develop tools or fix bugs in tools? Ok, I'll try to improve this. > - Clicking on W3C XHTML icon results in a > "This page is not Valid" page. Is it important > to declare compliance with one of many standards > these pages are using? No. Removed. ( I do check the pages, but you may have caught a page while I was working on it ) > - When I click on a menu subitem, I get the right page, > but the subitem disappears (I get top-level menu again). > Can the menu expansion be preserved so that I know > where I am on the site? I'd like this too, but it requires state in the menues, which they don't currently have. Anyway, I'm probably going to flatten it so the menues doesn't expand and contract. Thanks, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 05:21:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA10035; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 05:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3AIr-0006L1-20; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 05:24:18 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C39xn-0005Hn-4q; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 05:02:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C39oq-0001Pt-58 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:53:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08220 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 04:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C39rO-00046L-Gf for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:55:55 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2FA9537E4B; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:52:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D75137E48; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:52:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C2C37E64; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:52:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C39oI-0004Ef-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:52:42 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:52:41 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Toolset philosophy: extract data or require author to fill in form Message-Id: <20040903105241.007fb1d0@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, I'm splitting my response and adding subject lines. On Thursday, 2 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: ... > High-level feedback is especially helpful at this stage. In > particular, I am worried that the toolset design currently conflicts > with my interpretation of Secretariat preferences: > > My understanding is that Secretariat SRS uses a "give us metadata and > draft; we will validate metadata and then publish" approach. This > approach maximizes submitter work and minimizes tool utilization. [snip details] > Proposed toolset currently uses the opposite "give us the draft; we > will validate and extract as much metadata as we can, you validate > what we extracted and fill in the gaps, we publish" approach. This > approach minimizes submitter work and maximizes tool utilization. [snip details] > Both Secretariat and toolset design end up with the same set of > metadata fields. The difference is in who fills those fields > (submitter or software) and, hence, in consistency of filled > information. > > Please see draft for details. Which approach is better? When I've been thinking abou this tool, I've visualized something which is closer to the latter approach - extract metadata from the draft - but I thought of presenting a second page to the submitter after doing the extraction, with all meta-data filled in, and requesting confirmation of the metadata, with an option to change/correct some of the fields. (Validation of the submission (requred boilerplate etc.) would be done before presenting this page, so that for a draft not found valid, a different feedback page would be presented - the sumbitter wouldn't get first the metadata page and then find that the submission didn't validate.) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 06:42:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17109; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3BZc-00042j-NI; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:45:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3BOL-0005BW-Kk; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:34:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3BGr-0002ok-VO for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:26:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA15275 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3BJQ-0002W4-Os for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:28:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF9361BAF; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27904-01; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:25:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EDA061BDC; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:25:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:54:06 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Henrik Levkowetz , Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2. september 2004 11:29 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Alex, > > On Wednesday, 1 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > ... >> My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is >> a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only >> need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether >> the list is being archived! > > Makes sense to me. Could this be part of the confirmation mail sent > out by the mailing list on subscription? Already is. And part of the monthly password reminder. > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 06:56:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA18115; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Bmc-00050O-Pu; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:59:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3Bgv-0002Gx-Ka; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:53:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3Bap-0000yA-24 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:46:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17454 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3BdO-0004IR-JG for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:49:35 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2EB6137E42; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188E537E42; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F374737E4D; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C3BaB-0004fV-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 12:46:15 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:15 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication Message-Id: <20040903124615.749b78b4@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Harald, On Friday, 3 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is > >> a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only > >> need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether > >> the list is being archived! > > > > Makes sense to me. Could this be part of the confirmation mail sent > > out by the mailing list on subscription? > > Already is. And part of the monthly password reminder. Ah. I assume no action is needed currently, then. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 09:17:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27635; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Dyn-0006xm-Ba; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:19:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3DvB-0003bz-J5; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:16:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3DuD-0003CG-CN for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:15:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27420 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Dwo-0006v5-5h for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:17:47 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83DF08W041069; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:15:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i83DF0UT041068; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:15:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:15:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Toolset philosophy: extract data or require author to fill in form In-Reply-To: <20040903105241.007fb1d0@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040903071229.W40534@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040903105241.007fb1d0@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > When I've been thinking abou this tool, I've visualized something > which is closer to the latter approach - extract metadata from the > draft - but I thought of presenting a second page to the submitter > after doing the extraction, with all meta-data filled in, and > requesting confirmation of the metadata, with an option to > change/correct some of the fields. That's exactly what happens in the current draft. The second page is the Check page. If adjustments are needed, the submitter clicks a button and goes to the Adjust page (which also means she is off the auto-post route, but that is a different design decision to discuss). > (Validation of the submission (requred boilerplate etc.) would be done > before presenting this page, so that for a draft not found valid, a > different feedback page would be presented - the sumbitter wouldn't > get first the metadata page and then find that the submission didn't > validate.) That's exactly what happens in the current draft. Alex. P.S. Sorry about posting without a subject line. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 09:20:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27775; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3E1a-0007Aa-T4; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:22:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3DxI-000463-AP; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:18:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3Dwh-0003v4-Oe for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:17:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27671 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3DzJ-00078w-A2 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:20:21 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83DHa8W041234; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:17:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i83DHadh041233; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:17:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:17:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Draft submission authentication In-Reply-To: <20040903124615.749b78b4@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040903071541.I40534@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3D001IRX21KU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901165756.Y79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040902112931.2ca33afe@chardonnay> <20040903124615.749b78b4@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Harald, > > On Friday, 3 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >>>> My understanding of RFC 3667 intent is that a mailing list archive is >>>> a part of the "IETF Standards Process". If that is correct, we only >>>> need to obtain consent to a NOTE WELL notice, regardless of whether >>>> the list is being archived! >>> >>> Makes sense to me. Could this be part of the confirmation mail sent >>> out by the mailing list on subscription? >> >> Already is. And part of the monthly password reminder. > > Ah. I assume no action is needed currently, then. I do not think I got NOTE WELL for the tools-team list, and I suspect that open lists do not send NOTE WELLs to non-subscribers. Finally, there is a big difference between sending a NOTE WELL and getting explicit consent to its terms. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 11:24:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05688; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Fxe-000243-OP; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:26:47 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3FmV-0001gy-4D; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:15:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3FiY-0000XW-Kv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:11:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04938 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3FlA-0001lh-Cu for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:13:53 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83FB78W045150; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i83FB7Ab045149; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] tools site feedback In-Reply-To: <20040903103651.3c3dbee4@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040903090610.P44446@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040901133743.U79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040903103651.3c3dbee4@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> - Rename "Drafts" menu item to "Documents"? > > Mmm. Not sure that is better. More generic yes, but less specific. I was thinking that the "Documents" page would be a good place to link to selected wiki pages (e.g., the Infrastructure page) and other things that may not be drafts. If being a draft is important, we can have a "Drafts" section on the "Documents" page. "Documents" is more "persistent" too. If we are around for three years, I hope that some of our drafts become RFCs or BCPs :-). Not a big deal, of course. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 11:38:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06818; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3GC6-0002T0-Mp; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:41:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3G80-0006HS-HB; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:37:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3G0a-0004kE-KS for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:29:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06188 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3G3C-0002Cz-JW for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:32:31 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id EB4C537EBD; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:29:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FA337E6E; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:29:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5F137E4A; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:29:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C3G03-0005hk-00; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:29:15 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:29:15 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] tools site feedback Message-Id: <20040903172915.64cb64d0@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040903090610.P44446@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040901133743.U79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040903103651.3c3dbee4@chardonnay> <20040903090610.P44446@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Friday, 3 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > >> - Rename "Drafts" menu item to "Documents"? > > > > Mmm. Not sure that is better. More generic yes, but less specific. > > I was thinking that the "Documents" page would be a good place to link > to selected wiki pages (e.g., the Infrastructure page) and other > things that may not be drafts. If being a draft is important, we can > have a "Drafts" section on the "Documents" page. Ok, I see. My intention was to link "drafts" to an autogenerated drafts page. > "Documents" is more "persistent" too. If we are around for three > years, I hope that some of our drafts become RFCs or BCPs :-). Yes. Maybe there's room for "Drafts" and "RFCs"/"Other Documents". > Not a big deal, of course. We can adapt as content changes :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 3 15:59:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10872; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3KFw-00089F-0a; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3K6O-0003lL-8r; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:52:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3JwB-0007cG-7J for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:41:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10249 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Jyn-0007k3-EM for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:44:16 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i83JfO8W056587; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:41:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i83JfOXC056586; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:41:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:41:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Tools team query: Is there an obligation to know who I-D submissions are coming from? In-Reply-To: <10DAE581A9E913E062E2CB3C@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <20040903131938.Y44446@measurement-factory.com> References: <93DB9233B42C2844B0A1B7E8B94D99C302798DF9@HDBOSMX.haleanddorr.co m> <10DAE581A9E913E062E2CB3C@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> By the way, the submitter of an ID is bound by the IPR rules, >> whether or not he tells the truth! So that is not a concern. > > That's good! Actually, that is the cause of one of the problems we are trying to address: If I, pretending to be ExampleSoft authorized representative, submit a draft that essentially releases ExampleSoft IP to the public domain, will ExampleSoft be bound by the IPR rules? Your first reaction would be, "Surely not! We will remove the draft as soon as ExampleSoft complains! ExampleSoft cannot be bound by rules they did not consent to!". However, now consider the case when I actually was NOT pretending, and ExampleSoft is lying that the draft was submitted by somebody outside of ExampleSoft. They did submit the draft but then changed their mind and want to revoke it... Meanwhile, their competitors already writing code using that IP. IETF will be between the pressure from the community to keep the draft (and possibly get sued by ExampleSoft) and the pressure from ExampleSoft to delete the draft (possibly get sued by ExampleSoft competitors). How will IETF know what is actually going on, and how it will avoid liability without verifying (to some extent), at the time of submission, that submitter is who they say they are? Alex. P.S. I deleted Jorge Contreras from the CC list since I am not sure the above is distilled enough for lawyers to be involved. IANAL. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 4 04:33:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02675; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 04:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3W2U-0004Vz-Ds; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 04:36:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3Vww-0004cc-LL; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 04:31:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C3Vvo-0004Ox-Sr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 04:29:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA02478 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 04:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C3Vya-0004Rf-6l for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2004 04:32:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D544B61B93; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:29:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28064-03; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:29:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (145.80-202-211.nextgentel.com [80.202.211.145]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E20561B8D; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:29:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:30:59 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Tools team query: Is there an obligation to know who I-D submissions are coming from? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040903131938.Y44446@measurement-factory.com> References: <93DB9233B42C2844B0A1B7E8B94D99C302798DF9@HDBOSMX.haleanddorr.co m> <10DAE581A9E913E062E2CB3C@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <20040903131938.Y44446@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On fredag, september 03, 2004 13:41:24 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >>> By the way, the submitter of an ID is bound by the IPR rules, >>> whether or not he tells the truth! So that is not a concern. >> >> That's good! > > Actually, that is the cause of one of the problems we are trying to > address: > > If I, pretending to be ExampleSoft authorized representative, submit a > draft that essentially releases ExampleSoft IP to the public domain, will > ExampleSoft be bound by the IPR rules? YOU - the submitter - will be bound by the rules. Remember - the phrase is "....the author reprsents that...." - there is nothing there about Examplesoft. If you work for EvilCompany, and claim to submit on behalf of Examplesoft, Examplesoft has good reason to act against EvilCompany for the misbehaviour of its employee. If you can get out of your mind the idea that a company submits a draft, the situation DOES become a bit clearer. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 13:23:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12247; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4jjq-00016Z-LC; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:26:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4jUy-0002fn-OG; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:11:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4irn-0003pr-Fr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:30:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05776 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4iv4-0007Vz-AW for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 12:34:10 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87GUQGa070863; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:30:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i87GUPpk070862; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:30:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:30:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] draft announcement of tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <20040901141500.H79532@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <20040907102014.J58448@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3600LGB2S8TZ@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901141500.H79532@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Should we forward the first TOOLs announcement to rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org mailing list as well? Or is spamming via announcement list enough? Any opinions on the direction of the announcement (Larry's original version versus my suggestion below)? Do we expect to pick one during the call on Wednesday? Should we set a deadline for this announcement? I would like to post the ID submission draft so that the announcement can refer to it. If the team approves posting on Wednesday, the draft will be public on Thursday. Henrik, do you think we will be able to review the first version of your tools itinerary draft during the conference call? It would be nice to have both drafts posted before the announcement is sent... Thanks, Alex. On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > Larry, > > After a few attempts at suggesting specific fixes, I finally realized > what my real problem with the drafted announcement is. The announcement is > fine, but I believe we need a very different _kind_ of announcement. > > Instead of announcing a yet another IETF mailing list, we should explicitly > solicit IETFers feedback. Something along these lines: > > Subject: IETF tools suggestions needed > > IETFers, > > Do you know of a tool that would make your IETF work > easier? Have feedback about current IETF automation efforts? > The TOOLs team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general > comments, to be massaged into a series of tool specifications. > TOOLs specifications will then be used to implement or adopt > software for IETF. > > The first item on TOOLs list is the automation > of draft submission to allow for quick and painless > validation and posting of Internet-Drafts. The first > document describing the new draft submission tool is at > http://put-idsubmission-draft-url-here-once-posted > > What should we work on next? Please visit a list > of pending tools and send us additions as well as priority > preferences: http://put-future-tools-page-url-here > > Please send all TOOLs-related feedback to > tools-discuss@ietf.org, a newly formed mailing list. > TOOLs team internal deliberations can be viewed at > http://our-mailing-list-archive-url/ > > > Thank you, > > IETF TOOLs Team. > > The above is just to illustrate what I am after. I am sure your wording would > be much better. > > Do we want a "new list" announcement or "send us suggestions" announcement? > Sending both would seem like a waste of folks attention. > > Thanks, > > Alex. > > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > >> To: internet announce mailing list, wgchairs >> from: someone other than me >> Subject: IETF 'tools' team started, new list tools-discuss@ietf.org >> >> >> As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations >> and structure, a 'tools' group has been chartered to >> develop a requirements for electronic tools to aid >> in the IETF operations. >> >> This message announces a public discussion list, >> tools-discuss@ietf.org >> >> for the community to gathering and discuss >> requirements, suggestions, and priorities for >> IETF-related tools. >> >> Briefly, the charter of the group >> http:/// ... >> >> focuses primarily on tools to improve the interface >> between IETF administration and the broader community, >> and secondarily to aid in the operation of individual >> working groups and the tasks of standards development. >> >> The tools group aims to coordinate with the ongoing >> developments in IETF administrative realignment. >> >> Recently, many new tools have already been >> started and are in use; this group will continue with >> the process. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/show_tasks.cgi?mode=all >> >> Web site: >> http://tools.ietf.org >> >> >> Schedule: >> The group will initially focus on additional tools (not >> already specified or in progress) for use by the >> Secretariat. >> >> An draft set of requirements for an Internet Drafts >> Submission Tool will be posted shortly. >> >> Other secretariat tools are expected to be specified >> over the next six months. We will put together >> a list and priority schedule within that time frame. >> >> The tools team may also survey the community for >> input on priorities, requirements, and feedback >> on currently deployed tools. >> >> Internet Drafts in preparation: >> Internet Drafts Submissions Tool >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Tools-team mailing list >> Tools-team@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team >> > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 17:29:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08762; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4nZy-0000C8-Ga; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:32:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4nGL-0000ea-5V; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:12:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4mVv-00083R-OI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:24:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28882 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4mZQ-0005P9-5R for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:28:05 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id EBF0F37E8A; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:23:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7EF37E87; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:23:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9516737E4E; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:23:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C4mVM-0007ve-00; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:23:52 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:23:52 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] draft announcement of tools-discuss Message-Id: <20040907222352.638d30cd@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040907102014.J58448@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3600LGB2S8TZ@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <20040901141500.H79532@measurement-factory.com> <20040907102014.J58448@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Tuesday, 7 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > Should we forward the first TOOLs announcement to > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org mailing list as well? Or is spamming via > announcement list enough? ,:-) I think that might be a good idea. > Any opinions on the direction of the announcement (Larry's original > version versus my suggestion below)? Do we expect to pick one during > the call on Wednesday? I think your proposal is a step forward. Some adjustments may be needed. Why don't you put your text up in a wiki page too, so we can work on it online? > Should we set a deadline for this announcement? I would like to post > the ID submission draft so that the announcement can refer to it. If > the team approves posting on Wednesday, the draft will be public on > Thursday. Sounds good. Let's go for that. > Henrik, do you think we will be able to review the first version of > your tools itinerary draft during the conference call? It would be > nice to have both drafts posted before the announcement is sent... No. I aim to have a revision of the tools web page up by then, with tool inventory content, but don't expect to also have a draft ready. > Thanks, Thank you. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 18:07:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11999; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4oB2-00016T-M2; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:11:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4nqo-0005JI-0U; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:50:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4nah-00088o-GZ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:33:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09139 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4neC-0000Ht-Lr for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:37:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF361CD588 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04145-05 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BEC1CD55A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:33:11 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-team] tools list From: stanislav shalunov Date: 07 Sep 2004 17:33:20 -0400 Message-ID: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad A first stab at the list is now at . I went through the email threads and attempted to capture the tools that were mentioned. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed with 0.06479891g of NaCl. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 19:07:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16422; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4p73-00024B-P7; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:10:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4otf-00052W-U8; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:57:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4oik-0001vE-KI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:45:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15353 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4omF-0001kF-8J for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:49:29 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87MjbGa088547; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:45:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i87MjaxA088545; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:45:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:45:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] tools list In-Reply-To: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> References: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > A first stab at the list is now at > . I went through the email > threads and attempted to capture the tools that were mentioned. Thanks, Stas! I have added a "Tasks" area and a few other items/sub-areas. Is there a way to configure wiki to notify me of any page changes? How am I supposed to know when somebody have modified the page I am interested in? In an attempt to use wiki as a discussion board, I also added a few comments regarding the "areas" placement and overall page organization. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 19:21:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17291; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4pLH-0002J0-14; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:25:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4p2O-0006uK-ES; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:06:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4osn-0004pf-Sj for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:56:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15959 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4owH-0001ul-Sq for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:59:53 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D16B1CD542 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14769-01 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554E61CD521 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:56:04 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-team] email notification from http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ References: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 07 Sep 2004 18:56:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Alex Rousskov writes: > Is there a way to configure wiki to notify me of any page changes? When I click on the subscribe icon, I get this: ``This wiki is not enabled for mail processing. Contact the owner of the wiki, who can either enable email, or remove the "Subscribe" icon.'' Henrik, Would it be easy to enable email notification? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Antibiotics comprise 2% of cow feed in U.S. feedlots, by weight. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 19:50:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18657; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4pnB-0002jS-Cr; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:54:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4pTS-0004mZ-5T; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:34:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4pMp-0002L9-W2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:27:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17508 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4pQL-0002NI-FM for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:30:55 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i87NRCGa090556; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:27:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i87NRCeG090555; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:27:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:27:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] email notification from http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ In-Reply-To: <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040907172526.O58448@measurement-factory.com> References: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Alex Rousskov writes: > >> Is there a way to configure wiki to notify me of any page changes? > > When I click on the subscribe icon, I get this: > > ``This wiki is not enabled for mail processing. Contact the > owner of the wiki, who can either enable email, or remove the > "Subscribe" icon.'' > > Henrik, > > Would it be easy to enable email notification? And it seems to be a per-page setting. Is there a global option? I am not sure whether it would be practical to use (especially given a very small character limit for change-comment field), but I have no way of finding out other than trying... Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 20:12:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20323; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4q8R-0003A8-Q3; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:16:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4pt1-0002NO-Mf; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:00:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4poY-0001Aw-3e for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:55:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19045 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4ps4-0002pl-07 for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:59:33 -0400 Received: by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id D6B3337E6D; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:55:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E2637E43; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:55:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE7338003; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:55:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C4po0-0000fx-6O; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:55:20 +0200 Message-ID: <413E4A66.7000102@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:55:18 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] email notification from http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ References: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stanislav shalunov wrote: > When I click on the subscribe icon, I get this: > > ``This wiki is not enabled for mail processing. Contact the > owner of the wiki, who can either enable email, or remove the > "Subscribe" icon.'' > > Henrik, > > Would it be easy to enable email notification? I'll look into it - probably tomorrow - it's 1:54 here now, and I'll probably fall asleep before I get to it :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 7 20:38:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21993; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4qXV-0003dS-FI; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:42:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4qJ6-0000O3-Mp; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:27:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C4qBt-0006yZ-Gc for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:20:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20761 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C4qFO-0003HP-1z for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:23:41 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 930E537E6E; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 02:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A4537E42; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 02:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3532F37E47; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 02:19:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C4qBJ-0000o9-PF; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:19:25 +0200 Message-ID: <413E500D.9050804@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:19:25 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] email notification from http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ References: <86r7pdbw7z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040907164204.C58448@measurement-factory.com> <86hdq9bsdt.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <20040907172526.O58448@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040907172526.O58448@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > > And it seems to be a per-page setting. Is there a global option? I am > not sure whether it would be practical to use (especially given a very > small character limit for change-comment field), but I have no way of > finding out other than trying... I've added the config-file information necessary to enable email notification now - try it out (though I don't think you get a notification if you change a page yourself...). There's not a separate enablement per page, but one subscribes to changes to individual pages, it seems. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 11:24:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20350; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C54Ml-0002kU-Bg; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:28:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C545b-0001pQ-3C; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:10:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C53xa-0008OE-Sx for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:02:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18470 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C541F-0002EB-86 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:05:58 -0400 Received: by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 837F737F38; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D81E37F45 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:01:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D773D475 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C52kz-0002ik-00 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:45:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:45:05 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Action item review. * All - give feedback on http://tools.levkowetz.com/ * All - give feedback on next revision of I-D submission tool requirements * Henrik to send announcement once prerequisites are fulfilled. * Larry to ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions * Henrik to nudge Stas on tools review/discussion wiki page * Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the framework thoughts/summary. * Alex to send out next revision of draft by Sunday * Henrik to continue the inventory on the web site * Alex - add comments on the announcement draft to the wiki page ( http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/ToolsTeamAnnouncement ) * Larry, Henrik, Stas - check the announcement draft wiki page * Larry to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies of the meeting minutes. * Henrik will follow up on creation of "tools-discuss@ietf.org" list, and on the subdomain delegation 4. Status of drafts 5. Next steps 6. Any other business. 7. New action items, summary 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 15 Sep, same time as today, same codes. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 13:54:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01662; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C56i6-0005mb-Ej; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:58:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56dA-0008Vs-MK; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:53:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56Yp-0007LO-Pk for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:48:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01119 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C56cW-0005cr-Gk for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:52:37 -0400 Received: by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6507737F77; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:48:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA0337F58 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:48:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E9437E66 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:48:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C56YG-0003cf-00 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:48:12 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:48:12 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b7d60495f1a7f2e853e8cbae7e6dbfc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing Add item to talk about deadlines - added to Next Steps. 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. (Good to use "minutes" in subject of minutes) 3. Action item review. * All - give feedback on http://tools.levkowetz.com/ Received feedback from Alex - please send feedback * All - give feedback on next revision of I-D submission tool requirements * Alex submits current within 24 hours. Send comments now! * Henrik to send announcement once prerequisites are fulfilled. Alex made a new proposal of text. Bill suggested that some of the information from Larry's text should go in the announcement, too. * Larry updates Alex' text. * Henrik sends announcement as soon as Alex' draft is in the archives. * Larry to ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions Remains for next week. * Henrik to nudge Stas on tools review/discussion wiki page Done by Stas - went through all email, copying all mentions of tools on the mailing list. No evaluation, just a list of references. * Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the framework thoughts/summary. Done * Alex to send out next revision of draft by Sunday Done * Henrik to continue the inventory on the web site In progress, needs more work. Wiki link to be removed and only used for internal team work for now. * Alex - add comments on the announcement draft to the wiki page ( http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/ToolsTeamAnnouncement ) Done. * Larry, Henrik, Stas - check the announcement draft wiki page Done. -- Discussion of the announcement led into Allison mentioning the trouble the secretariat is currently having with the ticket system. Put tmda in front of RT 1. if secretariat wants advice on how to make ticket system more useful - reiterate advice "do challenge-response in front of ticket system 2. do reorgainsation of ietf front - what addresses to use for what. Allison mentioned that we could set up an external interface as a model of how to handle this - but that would still not cut down on the flood of incoming tickets they currently have. -- Question to Allison on enforcability of recommendations - the short of it is that we should assume that our recommendation of *interfaces* will be enforcable, but not necessarily how they are implemented internally. * Larry to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies of the meeting minutes. Not done - remains for next week. * Henrik will follow up on creation of "tools-discuss@ietf.org" list, and on the subdomain delegation Done, and both in place now. 4. Status of drafts Covered above. 5. Next steps * Allison will get information from Harald about wg-chair ticket system * Henrik does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for a wg-chair currently. * Henrik will solicit input on a wg ticket system from the wg-chairs list * The team will propose an interface for wg-chair interaction with ticket system - appropriate email address (is email appropriate?) - web page - ticket handling details? Deadlines: 20 hours - feedback on I-D submission tool draft 24 hours - Alex posts the draft 1 week - send details for tools for inclusion in tools.ietf.org web pages 2 weeks - tools inventory draft ready 6. Any other business. (Ticket system problems, covered earlier) 7. Action items, summary * All: give feedback on current revision of I-D submission tool requirements - before 12:00 EST tomorrow Thursday * Alex: submits current draft by 15:00 EST tomorrow Thursday * Allison: Get information from Harald about wg-chair ticket system * Henrik : does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for a wg-chair currently. * Henrik: After the tools-discuss list announcement has gone out, solicit input on how a ticket system interface for the WG chairs should look * All: Propose an interface for wg-chair interaction with ticket system - email address - web page - ticket handling * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content * Henrik: Send announcement of tools-discuss mailing list once the draft is available in the archives * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions * Henrik: continue the inventory on the web site. Finished by next Tuesday. * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies of the meeting minutes. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 15 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. The conference service is provided by Stas & internet2. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 14:12:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02786; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C56zc-00066P-Qv; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:16:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56kA-00021W-Cf; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:00:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56jW-0001kC-RI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:59:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02046 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C56nD-0005t2-BS for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:03:40 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i88HxlGa034429 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:59:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i88HxlHd034428; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:59:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:59:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040908113727.V26617@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Subject: [Tools-team] integrated announcement feedback X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Larry, Thanks for integrating the two letters. Below are micro-level improvement suggestions. My primary motivation is to make the announcement shorter and more to-the-point, given IETFers short attention span and the amount of spam they already receive. > Subject: Software tools for IETF: suggestions? [Also consider:] Subject: Software for IETF: suggestions? or Subject: TOOLs team seeks suggestions for IETF software. > IETFers, > > Do you have ideas for software tools that would make your IETF work > easier? Do you have feedback about current IETF automation efforts? > > As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations > and structure, a Tools team has been chartered to > develop a requirements for additional and revised electronic > tools to aid in the IETF operations. develop automation requirements for IETF operations. > The charter of the Tools team (found at its web site, > http://tools.ietf.org/) > focuses primarily on tools to improve the interface > between IETF administration and the broader community, > and secondarily to aid in the operation of individual > working groups and the tasks of standards development. TOOLs team looks at IETF administration interfaces (e.g., draft submission and meeting registration), working group activities (e.g., issue tracking and web space management), and individual participant needs (e.g., draft diffing and change notification). > Recently, the development of some new tools has already been started > and some are in use; this group will continue this work. [I would delete the above] > The Tools team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general > comments, to be massaged into a series of tool specifications. > Tools specifications will then be used to implement or adopt > software for IETF. > > The first item on Tools team list is the automation > of draft submission to allow for quick and painless > validation and posting of Internet-Drafts. The first > document describing the new draft submission tool is at > http://XXX-put-idsubmission-draft-url-here-once-posted. > What should we work on next? Please visit a list > of pending tools and send us additions as well as priority > preferences: http://XXX-put-future-tools-page-url-here. [The above paragraph should be polished to reflect actual web site state at the time of announcement. Currently, we have no good place to see all "future/proposed" tools, and priority page is not integrated with future tools.] > Please send all Tools-related feedback to > tools-discuss@ietf.org, a newly formed mailing list, > archived at http://XXX-tools-discuss-mailing-list-archive. > The members of the tools team are: > > * Henrik Levkowetz (chair); > * Bill Fenner; > * Larry Masinter; > * Alex Rousskov; > * Stanislav Shalunov. [Delete the bulleted list or move it to signature] > Web site for Tools team: > > http://tools.ietf.org/ > Schedule: > > The group will initially focus on additional tools > for use in the interface between the IETF administration > and the broader IETF community. > > A draft set of requirements for an Internet-Drafts > Submission Tool will be posted shortly. > > Other administrative tools are expected to be specified > over the next six months. We will put together > a list and priority schedule within that time frame. > > The Tools team may also conduct polls within the community for > input on priorities, requirements, and feedback > on currently deployed tools. > > After the initial focus on administrative tools, > the group will turn attention to tools of use > for aiding working groups. [I would delete all of the above starting with "Schedule:"] > Internet Drafts in preparation: > > * Internet Drafts Submissions Tool > * XXX: fill in more drafts here Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 14:18:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03402; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5753-0006Ey-Il; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:22:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56xk-0005IX-C2; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:14:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C56of-000314-FS for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:05:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02359 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C56sL-0005yt-La for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:08:59 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i88I57Ga036060 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:05:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i88I57Kr036059; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:05:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:05:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040908120014.F26617@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [Tools-team] Auto-generating tool entries X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Henrik, Looking at all the tool-describing pages we have and need to have, I think it is time to auto-generate them. We have a lot of information that must be organized in various ways to be usable. Would you be willing to define a simple XML DTD for a tool entry and write a script to generate the following HTML tables (or pages): all tools, tools for a given category (secretariat, WG, etc.), all future tools, all current tools, other? I can write a simple Perl script to generate tables of pages if you prefer. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 14:54:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05690; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C57e4-0006s9-1r; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:58:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C57Ue-0004Xu-Hw; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:48:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C57PV-0003SQ-5g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:43:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05090 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C57TA-0006gm-S1 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:47:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9EFD1CD75A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09540-04 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AEC91CD73E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:43:09 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat References: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 08 Sep 2004 14:43:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> Message-ID: <867jr4iou2.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 The recording of today's call can be found at http://netflow.internet2.edu/tools/20040908-tools.wav -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Letters in this message are closer than they appear. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 15:33:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09549; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C58G9-0007ej-Fz; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:37:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C587h-0002SQ-RJ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:28:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C582V-0007fn-Pf for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:23:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08846 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C586C-0007UX-Kk for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:27:22 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i88JNTGa039381 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:23:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i88JNTWt039380; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:23:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:23:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat In-Reply-To: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040908130311.D26617@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > -- Discussion of the announcement led into Allison mentioning > the trouble the secretariat is currently having with the > ticket system. > Put tmda in front of RT > 1. if secretariat wants advice on how to make ticket system > more useful - reiterate advice "do challenge-response in > front of ticket system Let's not record a recommendation we may or may not make in the future. Challenge-response solution was discussed, but the overall scope of the problem is not known yet (IMO); we should make a recommendation when we know more about the problems faced by the Secretariat. IMHO, we should be careful to avoid micro-managing macro-level interfaces that we do not recommend or approve. Issuing isolated advice on pieces of fundamentally broken infrastructure may be damaging to TOOLs team communication with the Secretariat and a waste of time in general. We are not the Secretariat management team (I think). > 2. do reorgainsation of ietf front - what addresses to use > for what. Reorganization of ietf front is on our to-do list, but let's not record a particular solution (changing addresses) before we have a coherent plan in place. To me, it sounded like e-mail interface should not be used for most of the tasks discussed during the conference call. Recommending micro-level adjustments to e-mail interface may be a waste of time and reputation if we are going to move away from that interface soon (see above). Short-term solutions should be cheap and easy to implement. If we are to recommend short-term solutions, I would consider recommending auto-rejecting all e-mails without a specific keyword in the subject or something else that is much simpler to implement than a good challenge-response system. However, let's not document any solution (including the one I just described) before we know exactly what the problem is and whether we are the right group to solve it. > * Henrik does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for > a wg-chair currently. > * Henrik will solicit input on a wg ticket system from the > wg-chairs list This means that WG ticket system is our second priority, after the ID submission tool. If we made that decision, let our priority page record that. If we have not, perhaps we should postpone both or the last item above until we have some feedback from IETF? In other words, are we sure that a WG ticket system the second most important thing to improve? > * The team will propose an interface for wg-chair interaction > with ticket system > - appropriate email address (is email appropriate?) > - web page > - ticket handling details? Same as the above comment. I am not against doing this work, but I want to make sure we consciously make this prioritization decision, even without feedback from IETFers... Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 8 19:28:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA02330; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Bux-0005i8-T7; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:32:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5BqB-0008TU-Ez; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:27:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5BbE-0005SF-Ok for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:11:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA01511 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Bex-0005VB-O5 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:15:29 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i88NBTGa051536 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:11:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i88NBSOj051535; Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:11:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:11:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20040908170355.H41999@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Subject: [Tools-team] ID archive with diffs X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 I am forwarding the e-mail below just FYI. There will be more stuff in the rfc-interest archives at http://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest once the archive catches up. Look for todays messages on the (long and abused) draft-hoffman-rfc-author-guide-00.txt thread. The top-level URL for the ID archive is http://www.potaroo.net/ietf/html/indexb.html Alex. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:33:06 +1000 From: Geoff Huston To: Bob Hinden , scott bradner Cc: bob.hinden@nokia.com, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, rousskov@measurement-factory.com Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Fwd: I-D At 07:01 AM 9/09/2004, Bob Hinden wrote: > At 01:51 PM 09/08/2004, scott bradner wrote: >> > Draft expiration policies are outside of TOOLs team >> > scope but I hope we can influence them. >> >> fwiw - I think the policy of pretending that IDs go away after they >> expire is very silly and its very counter productive to remembering >> old ideas and to do IPR searches > > Agreed. agreed I've been looking at how to define the 'history' of RFCs from the original draft through to the RFC, with diffs at each step in the draft and the draft -> rfc step. The generic reference for this work is http://bgp.poaroo.net/ietf/idref/rfc e.g.: http://www.potaroo.net/ietf/idref/rfc3407 Geoff _______________________________________________ rfc-interest mailing list rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org http://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 12:01:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29777; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5RQX-0004z7-TG; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:05:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RJP-0006gx-8g; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:58:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5R91-0004JO-Es for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:47:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28293 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5RCt-0004al-Ep for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:51:32 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-104.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.104] helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1C5R8y-0004Ub-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:47:28 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909110952.00aa1af0@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:42:59 -0400 To: tools-team@ietf.org From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39821207e2a2cade5c69c89d23fb80ee Subject: [Tools-team] Contacting the Secretariat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0795886408==" Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 04ebe73024b6be81174765e91aced811 --===============0795886408== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9776888==_.ALT" --=====================_9776888==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear TOOLS Team: Harald suggested that I send you some information on the Secretariat's current effors to update its contact information on the IETF Web site. This project has become a high-priority since several people have expressed confusion over the use of the aliases "iesg-secretary" vs. "ietf-secretariat" vs. "ietf-action." We are now in the process of updating the "Points of Contact" Web page (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/poc.html), and adjusting the aliases on other pages to eliminate inconsistencies. The new page will contain the following information: ---------------------------------------------------------------- IETF Secretariat Points of Contact Below is a list of active e-mail addresses for use in contacting the IETF Secretariat. Please use these addresses for the indicated purposes only. Please do not copy them in correspondence unless your message includes a request for Secretariat support. To contact the IETF Executive Director, please send a message to exec-director@ietf.org. For general information about the IETF: -- ietf-info@ietf.org For administrative support (e.g., request publication of an I-D as an RFC, update milestones, as questions about procedures, etc.): -- iesg-secretary@ietf.org To submit Internet-Drafts: -- internet-drafts@ietf.org To submit liaison statements: -- statements@ietf.org To submit IPR disclosures: -- ietf-ipr@ietf.org To coordinate IETF meetings with other meetings: -- meeting-planning@ietf.org To request meeting slots or submit agendas for IETF meetings: -- agenda@ietf.org For information on or assistance with registering for IETF meetings: -- ietf-registrar@ietf.org To submit minutes and presentation slides for IETF meeting proceedings: -- proceedings@ietf.org To report technical problems (e.g., problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web tools, etc.): -- ietf-action@ietf.org To report problems with the IETF Web site: -- webmaster@ietf.org The following addresses, which are equivalent to addresses in the list above, will be retained for the foreseeable future because they are mentioned in RFCs or other documentation that cannot be changed at this time: ietf-secretariat@ietf.org (equivalent to iesg-secretary@ietf.org) minutes@ietf.org (equivalent to proceedings@ietf.org) ietf-web@ietf.org (equivalent to webmaster@ietf.org) ---------------------------------------------------------------- For your information, I am also forwarding the text of a message that I sent to the IESG and others regarding a plan for streamlining Secretariat contact information. As you will see, the plan was prepared in May of this year, but was put on hold due to technical difficulties with the ticket system. Regards, Barbara ---------------------------------------------------------------- TEXT OF MESSAGE Early in 2004, the Secretariat began a project to replace the existing ticket system, Wreq, with RT, and concurrently, to streamline the set of tracking system and other e-mail aliases that the community uses to contact us. The reasons for wanting to make these changes are fairly obvious: - To deploy a better tool for the ticket system: RT is better than Wreq. - To make the names of the tracking systems and other e-mail aliases more intuitive: for example, "tech-support" is more intuitive than "ietf-action." - To direct tickets more efficiently: currently, all members of the staff rummage through the same bins to find their tickets. Furthermore, some aliases (such as "internet-drafts" and "agenda") should be directed to tracking system queues rather than to individuals. - To eliminate duplicative or unused aliases: no comment needed. The first phase of the project was the replacement of Wreq with RT. Unfortunately, the conversion to RT did not go as smoothly as we had hoped. Specifically, in order to function adequately, RT required a machine with more memory and a faster CPU than the machine that was available to host it. Therefore, we needed to fix this problem before we could successfully use RT in rapid turn-around situations such as posting Internet-Drafts or handling requests for session slots before an IETF meeting. We are now in the process of moving RT to a more appropriate machine. Once RT is functioning adequately, we can proceed with the second phase of the project, which is streamlining the e-mail aliases. The draft plan for streamlining the IETF Secretariat e-mail aliases, which I prepared in May of this year, is presented below this message. My intention was to submit the plan to the IESG for approval when we were certain that RT was functioning properly. As you will see, the plan addresses many of the concerns expressed in the recent e-mail exchange with thread "Re: Submission of Internet Drafts." Since it may take some time to gain consensus on this plan and implement it, I will certainly revisit the current instructions on the Web site and try to update them as best as possible using the existing aliases. Please let me know if you have any questions. Regards, Barbara P.S. Messages sent to the alias "ietf-secretariat" currently go to the same RT queue as messages sent to "iesg-secretary." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ STREAMLINING IETF SECRETARIAT E-MAIL ALIASES The IETF Secretariat proposes to make several changes to the e-mail aliases that the community uses to contact it. This document presents a description of the proposed tasks and a plan for implementing them. TASKS The project includes three tasks. Task 1: Redirecting Existing E-mail Aliases to RT Queues The Secretariat proposes to redirect selected aliases, which currently point to individual mailboxes, to RT queues. Doing so will enable the Secretariat to coordinate efforts on tasks normally addressed by more than one staff member, and to easily assign additional staff members to tasks during "crunches." Furthermore, it will enable the Secretariat to log requests and track their progress, and will help to prevent the loss of messages to desktop Spam filters. The following existing aliases, which currently point to the e-mail addresses of specific members of the Secretariat staff, will continue to point to specific members of the Secretariat staff: - exec-director -- To contact the IETF Executive Director -- bfuller@foretec.com> - developers -- To report bugs/ask questions about IETF Web tools--mlee@foretec.com, slee@foretec.com - meeting-planning -- To coordinate IETF meetings with other meetings -- mbeaulie@foretec.com - webmaster -- To report bugs/ask questions about the IETF Web site -- amyk@foretec.com The following existing aliases, which currently point to the e-mail addresses of specific members of the Secretariat staff, will be redirected to RT queues: - agenda -- To request meeting slots or submit agendas for IETF meetings - ietf-info -- To request information or ask questions of a general nature about the IETF - ietf-ipr -- To submit IPR disclosures - ietf-registrar -- To request information on or assistance with registering for IETF meetings - internet-drafts -- To submit Internet-Drafts for posting - proceedings -- To submit minutes and presentation slides for the IETF Meeting Proceedings - statements -- To submit liaison statements Task 2: Retiring Aliases that are Redundant The Secretariat proposes to retire selected aliases that are redundant. The following existing aliases will be eliminated due to redundancy: - ietf-web -- Redundant with webmaster - webadmin -- Redundant with webmaster - ietf-rsvp -- Redundant with ietf-registrar - ietf-proceedings -- Redundant with proceedings - ietf-minutes -- Redundant with proceedings - tominutes -- Redundant with proceedings - minutes -- Redundant with proceedings - proceedings-request -- Redundant with proceedings - iesg-secretary-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - ietf-secretariat -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - iesg-admin-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - iesg-tech-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - iesg-sec -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - ietf-secretary -- Redundant with iesg-secretary - action -- Redundant with ietf-action - ietf-ops -- Redundant with iesg-action - ietf-action-req -- Redundant with iesg-action - ietf-ops-req -- Redundant with iesg-action If a message is sent to an alias that has been retired, then the sender will receive an auto-response message directing him or her to a Web page that lists the active aliases. The message will not be redirected to the new alias to encourage the sender to learn and use the new alias. Task 3: Replacing Two Existing RT Queue Aliases and Creating a New RT Queue and Alias The Secretariat proposes to replace the ietf-action and iesg-secretary RT queue aliases with more meaningful ones: tech-support and iesg-support, respectively, and to create a new RT queue with alias wg-support. The functions of these three RT queues are as follows: - tech-support -- To request technical support or report technical problems - iesg-support -- To request assistance with tasks related to IESG business - wg-support -- To request assistance with tasks related to working group business The reasons for making these changes are to provide the community with more "user-friendly," intuitive aliases, to improve the Secretariat's efficiency in responding to tickets, and to minimize messages to the ticket system which do not contain requests for support and are often sent inadvertently. The ietf-action queue, which was originally intended for submitting requests for technical support, receives many tickets that are unrelated to technical issues or problems. Replacing it with a queue named tech-support should reduce the number of non-relevant tickets, as well as the amount of effort expended in redirecting them. The iesg-secretary and ietf-action queues both receive requests from working group chairs to update charters, advance Internet-Drafts to an RFCs, and for other types of assistance. Creating a wg-support alias will help funnel all such messages to one queue, which will be monitored by the members of the Secretariat who support working group activities. Finally, the Secretariat frequently sends messages "From" The IESG Secretary (iesg-secretary@ietf.org). Even if another return address is specified in the "reply-to" field, members of the community sometimes use that address to include the Secretariat in discussions. If the address is directed at a ticket system queue, then such messages generate spurious tickets. Replacing the alias with iesg-support will alleviate this problem and will provide a meaningful address for the ADs, as well as for the Liaison and Ex-officio members of the IESG, to request assistance from the Secretariat. If a message is sent to ietf-action or iesg-secretary, then the sender will receive an auto-response message directing him or her to a Web page that lists the active aliases. The message will not be redirected to the new alias to encourage the sender to learn and use the new alias. IMPLEMENTATION PLAN The Secretariat will perform these tasks in two phases: Phase I - Redirect selected aliases, which currently point to individual mailboxes, to RT queues. - Retire selected aliases that are redundant. The first task of Phase I, redirecting selected aliases to RT queues, should have little impact on the community. That is, individuals will continue to send requests for information and assistance to the same addresses that they have always used. The second task, retiring selected aliases, may have an impact on the community since some individuals may still use these aliases. To prepare the community for the changes, the Secretariat will do four things: - Create a Web page that lists the current active aliases and their purposes, as well as the aliases that are being retired. Since three of the latter aliases, ietf-secretariat, ietf-web, and minutes are referenced in RFCs, the Web page will also list the RFCs that reference each of these aliases. The list is as follows: * ietf-secretariat -- RFC 3160 * ietf-web -- RFC 3160 * minutes -- RFC 2418 and RFC 3160 - Remove all references to retired aliases from the IETF Web site. - Send a message to the IESG and working group chairs mailing lists that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page. The changes described in the message will include: * A general revamping of e-mail addresses to eliminate redundancy. * The use of auto-responders to notify people of addresses that are no longer active. * Implementation of a series of RT queues to facilitate requests for support. - Send a message to the IETF Announcement List that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page. The message will be similar to the one sent to the IESG and working group chairs lists. Phase II: Replace the ietf-action alias with tech-support, replace the iesg-secretary alias with iesg-support, and create a new RT queue and alias, wg-support. The replacement of the ietf-action and iesg-secretary aliases with tech-support and iesg-support, and the creation of the new RT queue and alias, wg-support, will be implemented independently of the other alias-streamlining tasks. The reason for doing so is that these tasks are expected to have a significant impact on the community since ietf-action and iesg-secretary are well known aliases, and both are commonly used by working group chairs to request support. To prepare the community for the changes, the Secretariat will do four things: - Update the Web page created in Phase I by adding tech-support, iesg-support, and wg-support to the list of current active aliases, removing ietf-action and iesg-secretary from the list of current active aliases, adding ietf-action and iesg-secretary to the list of aliases that are being retired, and updating the list of RFCs that reference retired aliases as follows: * iesg-secretary -- RFC 2418 and RFC 2436 - Remove all references to ietf-action and iesg-secretary from the IETF Web site and add references to tech-support, iesg-support, and wg-support to the IETF Web site as appropriate. - Send a message to the IESG and working group chairs mailing lists that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page. The changes described in the message will include: * The rationale for replacing the aliases ietf-action and iesg-secretary with tech-support and iesg-support, and for creating the RT queue alias wg-support. * The use of auto-responders to notify people that ietf-action and iesg-secretary have been replaced. - Send a message to the IETF Announcement List that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page. The message will be similar to the one sent to the IESG and working group chairs lists. The Secretariat will develop a timeline for completion of the project after the project has been approved by the IESG. ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 --=====================_9776888==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA28293 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear TOOLS Team:

Harald suggested that I send you some information on the Secretariat's current effors to update its contact information on the IETF Web site.  This project has become a high-priority since several people have expressed confusion over the use of the aliases "iesg-secretary" vs. "ietf-secretariat" vs. "ietf-action."

We are now in the process of updating the "Points of Contact" Web page (http://= www.ietf.org/IESG/poc.html), and adjusting the aliases on other pages to eliminate inconsistencies.  The new page will contain the following information:
----------------------------------------------------------------
IETF Secretariat Points of Contact

Below is a list of active e-mail addresses for use in contacting the IETF Secretariat.  Please use these addresses for the indicated purposes only.  Please do not copy them in correspondence unless your message includes a request for Secretariat support.  To contact the IETF Executive Director, please send a message to exec-director@ietf.org.

For general information about the IETF: -= - ietf-info@ietf.org

For administrative support (e.g., request publication of an I-D as an RFC, update milestones, as questions about procedures, etc.): -- iesg-secretary@ietf.org

To submit Internet-Drafts: -- internet-drafts@ietf.org

To submit liaison statements: -- statements@ietf.org

To submit IPR disclosures: -- ietf-ipr@ietf.org

To coordinate IETF meetings with other meetings: -- meeting-planning@ietf.org

To request meeting slots or submit agendas for IETF meetings: -- agenda@ietf.org

For information on or assistance with registering for IETF meetings: -- ietf-registrar@ietf.org

To submit minutes and presentation slides for IETF meeting proceedings: -- proceedings@ietf.org

To report technical problems (e.g., problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web tools, etc.): -- ietf-action@ietf.org

To report problems with the IETF Web site: --=20 webmaster@ietf.org

The following addresses, which are equivalent to addresses in the list above, will be retained for the foreseeable future because they are mentioned in RFCs or other documentation that cannot be changed at this time:

ietf-secretariat@ietf.org (equivalent to iesg-secretary@ietf.org)
minutes@ietf.org (equivalent to proceedings@ietf.org)
ietf-web@ietf.org (equivalent to webmaster@ietf.org)

---------------------------------------------------------------- For your information, I am also forwarding the text of a message that I sent to the IESG and others regarding a plan for streamlining Secretariat contact information.  As you will see, the plan was prepared in May of this year, but was put on hold due to technical difficulties with the ticket system.

Regards,

Barbara
----------------------------------------------------------------
TEXT OF MESSAGE

Early in 2004, the Secretariat began a project to replace the existing ticket system, Wreq, with RT, and concurrently, to streamline the set of tracking system and other e-mail aliases that the community uses to contact us.  The reasons for wanting to make these changes are fairly obvious:

- To deploy a better tool for the ticket system: RT is better than Wreq.
- To make the names of the tracking systems and oth= er e-mail aliases more intuitive: for example, "tech-support" is more intuitive than "ietf-action."
- To direct tickets more efficiently: currently, al= l members of the staff rummage through the same bins to find their tickets.  Furthermore, some aliases (such as "internet-drafts" and "agenda") should be directed to tracking system queues rather than to individuals.
- To eliminate duplicative or unused aliases: no comment needed.

The first phase of the project was the replacement of Wreq with RT.  Unfortunately, the conversion to RT did not go as smoothly as we had hoped.  Specifically, in order to function adequately, RT required a machine with more memory and a faster CPU than the machine that was available to host it.  Therefore, we needed to fix this problem before we could successfully use RT in rapid turn-around situations such as posting Internet-Drafts or handling requests for session slots before an IETF meeting.  We are now in the process of moving RT to a more appropriate machine.  Once RT is functioning adequately, we can proceed with the second phase of the project, which is streamlining the e-mail aliases.

The draft plan for streamlining the IETF Secretariat e-mail aliases, which I prepared in May of this year, is presented below this message.  My intention was to submit the plan to the IESG for approval when we were certain that RT was functioning properly.  As you will see, the plan addresses many of the concerns expressed in the recent e-mail exchange with thread "Re: Submission of Internet Drafts."

Since it may take some time to gain consensus on this plan and implement it, I will certainly revisit the current instructions on the Web site and try to update them as best as possible using the existing aliases.  Please let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,

Barbara

P.S. Messages sent to the alias "ietf-secretariat" currently go to the same RT queue as messages sent to=20 "iesg-secretary."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------
STREAMLINING IETF SECRETARIAT E-MAIL ALIASES

The IETF Secretariat proposes to make several changes to the e-mail aliases that the community uses to contact it.  This document presents a description of the proposed tasks and a plan for implementing them.

TASKS

The project includes three tasks.

Task 1: Redirecting Existing E-mail Aliases to RT Queues

The Secretariat proposes to redirect selected aliases, which currently point to individual mailboxes, to RT queues. Doing so will enable the Secretariat to coordinate efforts on tasks normally addressed by more than one staff member, and to easily assign additional staff members to tasks during =93crunches.=94 Furthermore, it will enable the Secretariat = to log requests and track their progress, and will help to prevent the loss of messages to desktop Spam filters.

The following existing aliases, which currently point to the e-mail addresses of specific members of the Secretariat staff, will continue to point to specific members of the Secretariat staff:

- exec-director -- To contact the IETF Executive Director -- bfuller@foretec.com>
- developers -- To report bugs/ask questions about IETF Web tools--mlee@foretec.com, slee@foretec.com
- meeting-planning -- To coordinate IETF meetings with other meetings -- mbeaulie@foretec.com
- webmaster -- To report bugs/ask questions about the IETF Web site -- amyk@foretec.com
                 &nb= sp;      
The following existing aliases, which currently point to the e-mail addresses of specific members of the Secretariat staff, will be redirected to RT queues:

- agenda -- To request meeting slots or submit agendas for IETF meetings
- ietf-info -- To request information or ask questions of a general nature about the IETF
- ietf-ipr -- To submit IPR disclosures
- ietf-registrar -- To request information on or assistance with registering for IETF meetings
- internet-drafts -- To submit Internet-Drafts for posting
- proceedings -- To submit minutes and presentation slides for the IETF Meeting Proceedings
- statements -- To submit liaison statements

Task 2: Retiring Aliases that are Redundant

The Secretariat proposes to retire selected aliases that are redundant.  The following existing aliases will be eliminated due to redundancy:

- ietf-web -- Redundant with webmaster
- webadmin -- Redundant with webmaster
- ietf-rsvp -- Redundant with ietf-registrar
- ietf-proceedings -- Redundant with proceedings
- ietf-minutes -- Redundant with proceedings
- tominutes -- Redundant with proceedings
- minutes -- Redundant with proceedings
- proceedings-request -- Redundant with proceedings
- iesg-secretary-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- ietf-secretariat -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- iesg-admin-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- iesg-tech-request -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- iesg-sec -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- ietf-secretary -- Redundant with iesg-secretary
- action -- Redundant with ietf-action
- ietf-ops -- Redundant with iesg-action
- ietf-action-req -- Redundant with iesg-action
- ietf-ops-req -- Redundant with iesg-action

If a message is sent to an alias that has been retired, then the sender will receive an auto-response message directing him or her to a Web page that lists the active aliases.  The message will not be redirected to the new alias to encourage the sender to learn and use the new alias.

Task 3: Replacing Two Existing RT Queue Aliases and Creating a New RT Queue and Alias

The Secretariat proposes to replace the ietf-action and iesg-secretary RT queue aliases with more meaningful ones: tech-support and iesg-support, respectively, and to create a new RT queue with alias wg-support.  The functions of these three RT queues are as follows:

- tech-support -- To request technical support or report technical problems
- iesg-support -- To request assistance with tasks related to IESG business
- wg-support -- To request assistance with tasks related to working group business

The reasons for making these changes are to provide the community with more =93user-friendly,=94 intuitive aliases, to improve the Secretariat=92= s efficiency in responding to tickets, and to minimize messages to the ticket system which do not contain requests for support and are often sent inadvertently.

The ietf-action queue, which was originally intended for submitting requests for technical support, receives many tickets that are unrelated to technical issues or problems.  Replacing it with a queue named tech-support should reduce the number of non-relevant tickets, as well as the amount of effort expended in redirecting them.

The iesg-secretary and ietf-action queues both receive requests from working group chairs to update charters, advance Internet-Drafts to an RFCs, and for other types of assistance.  Creating a wg-support alias will help funnel all such messages to one queue, which will be monitored by the members of the Secretariat who support working group activities.

Finally, the Secretariat frequently sends messages =93From=94 The IESG Secretary (iesg-secretary@ietf.org).  Even if another return address is specified in the =93reply-to=94 field, members of the community someti= mes use that address to include the Secretariat in discussions.  If the address is directed at a ticket system queue, then such messages generate spurious tickets.  Replacing the alias with iesg-support will alleviate this problem and will provide a meaningful address for the ADs, as well as for the Liaison and Ex-officio members of the IESG, to request assistance from the Secretariat.

If a message is sent to ietf-action or iesg-secretary, then the sender will receive an auto-response message directing him or her to a Web page that lists the active aliases.  The message will not be redirected to the new alias to encourage the sender to learn and use the new alias.

IMPLEMENTATION PLAN

The Secretariat will perform these tasks in two phases:

Phase I

- Redirect selected aliases, which currently point = to individual mailboxes, to RT queues.
- Retire selected aliases that are redundant.

The first task of Phase I, redirecting selected aliases to RT queues, should have little impact on the community.  That is, individuals will continue to send requests for information and assistance to the same addresses that they have always used.  The second task, retiring selected aliases, may have an impact on the community since some individuals may still use these aliases.

To prepare the community for the changes, the Secretariat will do four things:

- Create a Web page that lists the current active aliases and their purposes, as well as the aliases that are being retired.  Since three of the latter aliases, ietf-secretariat, ietf-web, and minutes are referenced in RFCs, the Web page will also list the RFCs that reference each of these aliases.  The list is as follows:

* ietf-secretariat -- RFC 3160
* ietf-web -- RFC 3160
* minutes -- RFC 2418 and RFC 3160

- Remove all references to retired aliases from the IETF Web site.

- Send a message to the IESG and working group chai= rs mailing lists that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page.  The changes described in the message will include:

* A general revamping of e-mail addresses to eliminate redundancy.
* The use of auto-responders to notify people of addresses that are no longer active.
* Implementation of a series of RT queues to facilitate requests for support.

- Send a message to the IETF Announcement List that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page. The message will be similar to the one sent to the IESG and working group chairs lists.

Phase II: Replace the ietf-action alias with tech-support, replace the iesg-secretary alias with iesg-support, and create a new RT queue and alias, wg-support.
 
The replacement of the ietf-action and iesg-secretary aliases with tech-support and iesg-support, and the creation of the new RT queue and alias, wg-support, will be implemented independently of the other alias-streamlining tasks.  The reason for doing so is that these tasks are expected to have a significant impact on the community since ietf-action and iesg-secretary are well known aliases, and both are commonly used by working group chairs to request support.

To prepare the community for the changes, the Secretariat will do four things:

- Update the Web page created in Phase I by adding tech-support, iesg-support, and wg-support to the list of current active aliases, removing ietf-action and iesg-secretary from the list of current active aliases, adding ietf-action and iesg-secretary to the list of aliases that are being retired, and updating the list of RFCs that reference retired aliases as follows:

* iesg-secretary -- RFC 2418 and RFC 2436

- Remove all references to ietf-action and iesg-secretary from the IETF Web site and add references to tech-support, iesg-support, and wg-support to the IETF Web site as appropriate.

- Send a message to the IESG and working group chai= rs mailing lists that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page.  The changes described in the message will include:

* The rationale for replacing the aliases ietf-acti= on and iesg-secretary with tech-support and iesg-support, and for creating the RT queue alias wg-support.
* The use of auto-responders to notify people that ietf-action and iesg-secretary have been replaced.

- Send a message to the IETF Announcement List that describes the changes and includes a link to the Web page.  The message will be similar to the one sent to the IESG and working group chairs lists.

The Secretariat will develop a timeline for completion of the project after the project has been approved by the IESG.
------------------------------------------------
Barbara B. Fuller
Acting Executive Director
Internet Engineering Task Force

Natick, Massachusetts Office:

Phone: +1-508-650-4020
Fax:     +1-508-650-4639

Reston, Virginia Office:

Phone: +1-703-620-9053
Fax:     +1-703-620-9071 --=====================_9776888==_.ALT-- --===============0795886408== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --===============0795886408==-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 12:24:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01240; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Rmu-0005O9-9M; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:28:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RPN-00080f-Sa; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:04:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RKU-00071i-AH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:59:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29677 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ROM-0004w3-OA for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:03:23 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5154937FD3; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:58:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B4D37F92; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:58:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134D738017; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:58:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C5RJv-0008Ae-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:58:47 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:58:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] (no subject) Message-Id: <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex, Here are a few last-minute notes. If there are things you won't have time to fix before 15:00 Eastern, then leave them to the next revision. Henrik On Thursday, 2 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > TOOLS team A. Rousskov > Internet-Draft The Measurement Factory > Expires: March 3, 2005 September 2, 2004 >=20 >=20 > Requirements for IETF Draft Submission Toolset > draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission ... > Many Working Groups have come up with ad hoc solutions to cope with > posting delays. For example, many draft subversions are "temporary" > published on personal web sites or sent (completely or in part) to > the group list. Alternative means of publication may effectively > replace official IETF interfaces, with only a few major draft > revisions end up being posted on IETF web site. >=20 > Informal interfaces for submitting and posting drafts discourage > automation. Lack of automation discourages frequent updates. >=20 > Infrequent updates lead to stale public information and/or > duplication of posting mechanisms by individual authors or WGs. Let me note that I'm not convinced that an update frequency of archive draf= ts higher than on average once per two week, approximately, is beneficial. I believe updates oftener than this should be done in some other manner. The= re needs to be a common baseline for mailing list discussions to be fruitful, = and as some editors publish a new version after every issue has been addressed, sometimes as often as 5 times over one day, the picture that emerges from t= he above 3 paragraphs seems a bit skewed to me, as it implicitly says that more often is better, without reservation ... > 5. Overall toolset operation >=20 > To post a draft, the submitter goes through the following sequence of > steps and web pages: Better clarify the above sentence, so it is obvious this is the proposed new mechanism. =20 ... > The following diagram illustrates a typical submission process. > (XXX: we should probably merge the above list and the diagram) Yes, definitely. (And probably call this something else than diagram - it's not really. Maybe s/diagram/sequence/ ?) ... > 3. A Working Group draft must be approved by the corresponding > working group. >=20 > 4. Current draft state must allow new revisions to be posted. (XXX: > document IESG review states when new revisions are allowed. > Secretariat and Harald opinions seem to differ here. > Secretariat: No revisions are allowed in any state except for > "I-D exists", "AD watching", or an explicit IESG request for a > new revision. Harald: no revisions once submitted for > publication. Need further clarification). >=20 > 5. Correct draft ID (including correct revision number with respect > to already published revisions, if any) must appear in the draft > text. >=20 > 6. An IETF IPR statement must appear in the draft text. [[anchor3: > add the applicable parts of RFC 2026, 3667 and 3668 - this is > mostly a matter of checking the presence of boilerplate text. > --Henrik]] >=20 > (XXX: Today, -00 WG drafts are approved by the Chair after > submission, not prior to submission) I think we need to very clearly point out that we propose to require that working group chairs post an approval *before* a -00 is sumbitted - there is no option to submit a -00 draft and have it sit and wait for the chair's approval. This is a change from current procedure, and=20 may need approval from outside the tools team. >=20 > 7.3.2 Desireable features >=20 > Violating any of the following requirements would NOT prevent a draft > to be automatically posted except for draft revision designated for > "publication requested" state (i.e., IETF Last Call and IESG review). > (XXX: should we be that strict with last revisions?) >=20 > TBD: list testable nits here or refer to the nits document. Henrik's > idnits tool is a starting point: > http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/ Here is the excerpt from the ID-checklist, with checkable nits marked=20 with "yes": 1.1 Formatting =20 yes * Not beyond the 72nd column of a line This is especially important for diagrams and code, which the RFC E= ditor may not be able to trivially reformat to fall within the margins. yes * Must be ragged right yes * No hyphenation for line-breaks * No footnotes yes * ASCII-only, no control characters (other than CR, NL & FF) yes * Do not number the "Status of Memo" or Abstract sections yes@ * Do not add a numbered reference in the ID boilerplate to RFC 3667 o= r 3668 (makes it harder for the RFC editor to process the document when th= ey strip off the ID boilerplate) * Reasonably well formatted for readibility and clarity. * Use network byte order in diagrams (see draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-07.txt section 3.4) =20 1.2 Required sections - all IDs =20 yes@ * Internet Draft boilerplate Must contain boilerplate that permits publication as an RFC (see RFC3667, Section 5.2.) * List of authors/editors There should not be > 5 authors/editors (see http://www.rfc-editor.org/policy.html) yes * Abstract yes * Table of Contents, required if document is more than 15 pages yes * Introduction yes * Security Considerations * IANA Considerations yes * References Must be split into normative and informative sections (see http://www.rfc-editor.org/policy.html) yes * Author's Address yes * IPR notices, IPR Notice, verbatim from RFC3668, Section 5. yes * Copyright Notice and Disclaimer, verbatim from RFC3667, Sections 5.4 and 5.5. >=20 > 8. Check Page >=20 > The Check page, created by the Check action displays extracted draft > meta-data and validation results. The purpose of the page is to > allow the submitter to verify whether stored draft and automatically > extracted meta-data match submitter's intent and to be informed of > validation problems. >=20 > Extracted meta-data items that were not successfully extracted or > that failed validation checks must be marked specially (rather than > silently omitted). Validation results include errors and warnings, >=20 >=20 >=20 > Rousskov Expires March 3, 2005 [Page 10] > =0C > Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements September 2004 >=20 >=20 > with references to normative documents containing corresponding > validation rules. >=20 > The submitter can also enter external meta-data (Section 8.1), which > is required for automated posting of the draft. If validation was > successful, an "automatically post the draft now" button is provided. > Regardless of validation results, "adjust and post manually" and > "cancel" buttons are provided. >=20 > Finally, a preview of the draft is provided. (XXX: should the entire > draft be rendered, especially when submission does not include plain > text format?) >=20 > 8.1 External meta-data >=20 > TBD: Input fields for meta-data that must be supplied by submitter > and cannot be extracted from the draft: Which author is the > submitter? (with an exception for Secretariat manual submission); Is > this the last revision of the draft? (XXX: clarify: last from the > WG/author point of view (to be submitted to the AD for IETF last call > and IESG review), may not be last revision since IESG may require > more revisions). This will probably not be known at the time of submission, so probably should not be included. And is there any need for this information here, especially since it may turn out to be wrong as often as right? > 9. Post Now Action >=20 > The Post Now action checks that the draft has been successfully > validated, validates external meta-data (including submitter e-mail), > and posts the draft. Submitter is notified of the action progress > and final result. >=20 > External data contains submitter e-mail address. As a part of the > validation procedure, the Post Now action checks that the submitter > has access to e-mail sent to that address. The check is performed by > e-mailing a hard-to-guess cookie or token. The submitter is > requested to cut-and-paste the token or go to the token-holding URL > to continue with the submission. If the submitter does not continue, > the submission will eventually timeout. This intermediate dialog > requires storing additional state and generating a token-accepting > web page. >=20 > If draft posting is successful, toolset state information may be > deleted from the toolset storage area (XXX: on-demand garbage > collection may be better from debugging point of view; what may seem > like a successful post may not be that successful). >=20 > 10. Adjust Action >=20 > The Adjust action generates the Adjust page, populating it with > available extracted meta-data and external meta-data as well as > validation results and preview. Some or all of the information may > be missing, depending on draft interpretation and rendering success. >=20 > 11. Adjust Page >=20 > The Adjust page allows the submitter to adjust all extracted draft > meta-data (and, naturally, external meta-data) at will. Such > adjustment is necessary when automated extraction failed to extract > [correct] information. To avoid mismatch between draft and its > meta-data, adjusted drafts cannot be automatically posted and require > manual validation by Secretariat. Secretariat staff can post drafts > with adjusted meta-data as described in Section 13. >=20 > In addition to editable meta-data, the page provides read-only > validation results and preview, if available. >=20 > The "post manually" and "cancel" buttons are provided. The former is > backed by the "Post Manually" action (Section 12). >=20 > 12. Post Manually Action >=20 > The Post Manually action sends adjusted meta-data and draft pointer > to the Secretariat for manual validation and posting. A receipt page > is generated instruction the submitter to wait. Secretariat will > notify the submitter once the draft is posted or rejected. Having come to this point in the description, I would wish for a diagram - decision tree type - to see clearly where the different pages/actions mentioned above belong, and how they are related to each other. -- no further comments a this time -- Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 12:42:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02429; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5S4a-0005fd-Qs; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:47:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5Rj8-0005eh-Lb; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:24:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RQK-00089j-Le for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:05:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29949 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5RUC-00052v-LN for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:09:26 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 52EAC37EA9; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:04:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4206137E4F; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:04:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2834837E55; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C5RPm-0008CV-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:04:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:04:50 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat Message-Id: <20040909180450.2f51eaf4@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040908130311.D26617@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> <20040908130311.D26617@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, With regards to your first two comments - the minutes are very abbreviated here, mea culpa - I was recording what Allison said in numbered items 1 and 2 below, not trying to indicate this as a recommendation made by the tools team. I agree with your comments on the basis of the perception you had of what the minutes were saying :-) More further down... On Wednesday, 8 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > -- Discussion of the announcement led into Allison mentioning > > the trouble the secretariat is currently having with the > > ticket system. > > Put tmda in front of RT > > 1. if secretariat wants advice on how to make ticket system > > more useful - reiterate advice "do challenge-response in > > front of ticket system > > Let's not record a recommendation we may or may not make in the > future. Challenge-response solution was discussed, but the overall > scope of the problem is not known yet (IMO); we should make a > recommendation when we know more about the problems faced by the > Secretariat. > > IMHO, we should be careful to avoid micro-managing macro-level > interfaces that we do not recommend or approve. Issuing isolated > advice on pieces of fundamentally broken infrastructure may be > damaging to TOOLs team communication with the Secretariat and a waste > of time in general. We are not the Secretariat management team (I > think). > > > 2. do reorgainsation of ietf front - what addresses to use > > for what. > > Reorganization of ietf front is on our to-do list, but let's not > record a particular solution (changing addresses) before we have a > coherent plan in place. To me, it sounded like e-mail interface should > not be used for most of the tasks discussed during the conference call. > Recommending micro-level adjustments to e-mail interface may be a > waste of time and reputation if we are going to move away from that > interface soon (see above). > > Short-term solutions should be cheap and easy to implement. If we are > to recommend short-term solutions, I would consider recommending > auto-rejecting all e-mails without a specific keyword in the subject > or something else that is much simpler to implement than a good > challenge-response system. However, let's not document any solution > (including the one I just described) before we know exactly what the > problem is and whether we are the right group to solve it. > > > * Henrik does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for > > a wg-chair currently. > > * Henrik will solicit input on a wg ticket system from the > > wg-chairs list > > This means that WG ticket system is our second priority, after the ID > submission tool. If we made that decision, let our priority page > record that. If we have not, perhaps we should postpone both or the > last item above until we have some feedback from IETF? In other words, > are we sure that a WG ticket system the second most important thing to > improve? My understanding is that this prioritation has been requested by IESG (through Allison) and I agree with it. This is reflected in the prioritization Wiki page I put up yesterday... > > * The team will propose an interface for wg-chair interaction > > with ticket system > > - appropriate email address (is email appropriate?) > > - web page > > - ticket handling details? > > Same as the above comment. I am not against doing this work, but I > want to make sure we consciously make this prioritization decision, > even without feedback from IETFers... Right. Henrik. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 12:44:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02564; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5S6U-0005hx-8e; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:48:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RjB-0005go-15; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:24:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RTA-0000Du-7i for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:08:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00229 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5RX2-00056V-Cd for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:12:21 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2739D37E89; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:07:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1829137E4B; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:07:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F3537E54; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:07:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C5RSc-0008DA-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:07:46 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:07:46 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Auto-generating tool entries Message-Id: <20040909180746.034b99b5@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040908120014.F26617@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> <20040908120014.F26617@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 8 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > Henrik, > > Looking at all the tool-describing pages we have and need to > have, I think it is time to auto-generate them. We have a lot of > information that must be organized in various ways to be usable. Agree. > Would you be willing to define a simple XML DTD for a tool > entry and write a script to generate the following HTML tables (or > pages): all tools, tools for a given category (secretariat, WG, etc.), > all future tools, all current tools, other? Sure, already have been thinking in this direction; this is the way I organize almost all of the pages that can be handled that way. The only reason I haven't done so already is that exactly what would be the final content and look hasn't jelled in my mind yet - so I expect to work manually with the pages till it does, and then script it so we can sort, partition, merge etc. the information according to need. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 12:45:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02603; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5S6j-0005iY-Nx; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:49:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RjH-0005kH-4Z; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:24:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RaS-0002YU-GL for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00796 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ReK-0005GE-EY for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:19:53 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89GFiGa055460; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:15:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i89GFijY055459; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:15:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:15:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Auto-generating tool entries In-Reply-To: <20040909180746.034b99b5@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040909100858.W41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> <20040908120014.F26617@measurement-factory.com> <20040909180746.034b99b5@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On Wednesday, 8 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: >> Looking at all the tool-describing pages we have and need to >> have, I think it is time to auto-generate them. We have a lot of >> information that must be organized in various ways to be usable. > > Agree. > >> Would you be willing to define a simple XML DTD for a tool >> entry and write a script to generate the following HTML tables (or >> pages): all tools, tools for a given category (secretariat, WG, >> etc.), all future tools, all current tools, other? > > Sure, already have been thinking in this direction; this is the way > I organize almost all of the pages that can be handled that way. The > only reason I haven't done so already is that exactly what would be > the final content and look hasn't jelled in my mind yet - so I > expect to work manually with the pages till it does, and then script > it so we can sort, partition, merge etc. the information according > to need. Henrik, I am glad we agree in principle, but I am not sure how to interpret the above with regard to what should be done before we sent the announcement. I would like to auto-generate the pages _before_ the announcement is out. I am happy to give you XML sources, the script, and/or the HTML output if you do not have time to do it now. You will change everything later if needed, but I think it would benefit us to have these generated pages for the first announcement (even if we completely change the design later). Do you think we should generate said pages now? If yes, do you have cycles and desire to do that? If you want the pages, but do not have the cycles or desire, would you mind accepting temporary scripts/HTML from me (I can make HTML look similar to what you currently have on some of the tools pages)? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 13:00:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04216; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5SLP-00067b-Cp; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:04:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5S4r-0001XV-Sw; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:47:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5RxH-0007wp-A2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:39:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02222 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5S19-0005at-JD for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:43:29 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 878E437EF1; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:38:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C9E37E8E; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:38:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681CF37E44; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:38:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C5Rwj-0008Mt-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:38:53 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:38:53 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Auto-generating tool entries Message-Id: <20040909183853.1ebbba6d@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040909100858.W41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908154505.7f702d23@chardonnay> <20040908120014.F26617@measurement-factory.com> <20040909180746.034b99b5@chardonnay> <20040909100858.W41241@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Thursday, 9 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > I am glad we agree in principle, but I am not sure how to interpret > the above with regard to what should be done before we sent the > announcement. > > I would like to auto-generate the pages _before_ the announcement is > out. I am happy to give you XML sources, the script, and/or the HTML > output if you do not have time to do it now. You will change > everything later if needed, but I think it would benefit us to have > these generated pages for the first announcement (even if we > completely change the design later). As I don't feel that I see clearly what we won't, my intention has been to do this by hand till it becomes clearer. > Do you think we should generate said pages now? If yes, do you have > cycles and desire to do that? Cycles I could find, but doing it without knowing where we want to go doesn't necessarily make sense to me :-) I find that working manually with pages often helps me think about how to make them come out good - then suddenly at some point I know that I'm ready to script their generation. > If you want the pages, but do not have > the cycles or desire, would you mind accepting temporary scripts/HTML > from me (I can make HTML look similar to what you currently have on > some of the tools pages)? Not sure I see the benefit, but if you have a burning desire to do something, the least I can do is to look at the result :-) I'll continue tweaking the pages manually - there are a few things I've put on one or two of the pages which I want to put on all before we 'go live' . Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 13:26:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05918; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5SkQ-0006Xm-CL; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:30:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5SZF-0008Nd-0h; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:18:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5SV2-0007XO-7s for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:14:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05015 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5SYu-0006L6-VS for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:18:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84C21CD832 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24222-04 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9741CD713 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 09 Sep 2004 13:14:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> Message-ID: <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Henrik Levkowetz writes: > > Informal interfaces for submitting and posting drafts discourage > > automation. Lack of automation discourages frequent updates. > > > > Infrequent updates lead to stale public information and/or > > duplication of posting mechanisms by individual authors or WGs. > > Let me note that I'm not convinced that an update frequency of > archive drafts higher than on average once per two week, > approximately, is beneficial. The latency of I-D posting and the throughput of updates to an individual I-D are, of course, orthogonal. I think all would agree that minimizing latency is advantageous. Current latency (especially before physical meetings) encourages duplication of posting mechanisms (e.g., the authors send the I-D submission to internet-drafts@ietf.org and copy the WG mailing list). This is worse than instant processing of submitted draft and generation of the automatic notice to the WG. How often the draft should be updated is open to debate, but such policy is best set by individual working groups and authors. The I-D submission tool, at most, might include a warning to the submitter if the previous version of a draft is less than a week (or maybe two days) old, but not prevent the author technically from submitting even multiple drafts per day: this can be the right thing if clear errors are found in a recently posted draft, especially if it's close to a physical meeting submission deadline. Another aspect of the current system that encourages duplication of mechanisms is inability to include a note to the working group in the submission (separate from a more static abstract); such note could enumerate the issues addressed in the current version, sketch plans, remind about open issues, or describe the status of the draft (e.g., ``I believe this draft is now ready for WGLC'' or ``waiting for input from foo''). -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 15:19:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14690; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5UVz-0000JT-5G; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:23:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5UNn-0005z5-4w; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:14:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5UHh-0002sd-DG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:08:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13144 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ULZ-00005h-Ew for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:12:44 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89J8ZGa063593; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:08:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i89J8ZiR063592; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:08:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:08:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates In-Reply-To: <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040909125626.B41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Stas, I agree with everything you said. We can later decide what submission gap should generate warnings (added as an XXX item to the draft) Observations regarding duplication of posting mechanisms are already in the draft. It is probably a good idea for the interface to report the time of the previous update. I've added that idea as an XXX to the draft. The last comment about "inability to include a note" may eventually be addressed by WG snapshots and related mechanisms, but those are probably outside of TOOLs scope for now. Thank you, Alex. On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > >>> Informal interfaces for submitting and posting drafts discourage >>> automation. Lack of automation discourages frequent updates. >>> >>> Infrequent updates lead to stale public information and/or >>> duplication of posting mechanisms by individual authors or WGs. >> >> Let me note that I'm not convinced that an update frequency of >> archive drafts higher than on average once per two week, >> approximately, is beneficial. > > The latency of I-D posting and the throughput of updates to an > individual I-D are, of course, orthogonal. I think all would agree > that minimizing latency is advantageous. Current latency (especially > before physical meetings) encourages duplication of posting mechanisms > (e.g., the authors send the I-D submission to internet-drafts@ietf.org > and copy the WG mailing list). This is worse than instant processing > of submitted draft and generation of the automatic notice to the WG. > > How often the draft should be updated is open to debate, but such > policy is best set by individual working groups and authors. The I-D > submission tool, at most, might include a warning to the submitter if > the previous version of a draft is less than a week (or maybe two > days) old, but not prevent the author technically from submitting even > multiple drafts per day: this can be the right thing if clear errors > are found in a recently posted draft, especially if it's close to a > physical meeting submission deadline. > > Another aspect of the current system that encourages duplication of > mechanisms is inability to include a note to the working group in the > submission (separate from a more static abstract); such note could > enumerate the issues addressed in the current version, sketch plans, > remind about open issues, or describe the status of the draft (e.g., > ``I believe this draft is now ready for WGLC'' or ``waiting for input > from foo''). > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ > > This message is designed to be viewed upside down. > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 15:32:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16232; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Uj3-0000an-D9; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:36:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5UXx-0003Ro-5d; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:25:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5UTd-0000JW-KW for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:21:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14981 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5UXX-0000La-9y for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:25:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEB71CD8AE for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15512-10 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005281CD836 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:20:58 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <20040909125626.B41241@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 09 Sep 2004 15:21:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040909125626.B41241@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86eklbfduj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Alex Rousskov writes: > The last comment about "inability to include a note" may eventually be > addressed by WG snapshots and related mechanisms, but those are > probably outside of TOOLs scope for now. I think that the possible inclusion of a submitter's note with draft submission (to be relayed to the working group in the I-D posting announcement) is in scope for the purposes of discussion of an I-D submission tool. Further, what would be the downside? The note could be left empty. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at an angle of 45 degrees. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 17:08:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00369; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5WDl-0004rQ-0z; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:12:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5W5l-0006H5-LR; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:04:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5VOd-0006Vd-9D for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:19:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22056 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5VSV-0002Rc-A8 for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:23:58 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89KJkGa066451; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:19:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i89KJkfi066450; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:19:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:19:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates In-Reply-To: <86eklbfduj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040909140216.U41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <20040909125626.B41241@measurement-factory.com> <86eklbfduj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > I think that the possible inclusion of a submitter's note with draft > submission (to be relayed to the working group in the I-D posting > announcement) is in scope for the purposes of discussion of an I-D > submission tool. Further, what would be the downside? The note > could be left empty. I agree that posting a note on WG mailing list would be in TOOLs team scope, but I think that an in-draft note would be an overall better solution for comments related to the draft state (rather than posting itself). Placing draft state notes (if any) in the draft itself lets folks outside of the WG (e.g., reviewers or related WGs) and folks new to the WG know what is going on without fishing for that info. In other words, comments that have draft-long lifespan should be in the draft. Comments that are specific to the posting event, can be included in the announcement. I cannot think of any useful comments that would be specific to the posting itself. Specifically, here are the examples of comments you proposed and my reaction to them: > enumerate the issues addressed in the current version, should be in the draft change log or draft state section > sketch plans, can be in the draft TODO section, but is probably not appropriate for either the draft or the announcement. TODO lists are better maintained separately as they can be quite dynamic. > remind about open issues, draft-specific issues should be documented in the draft, IMO, for reviewers and other interested parties to see > or describe the status of the draft (e.g., ``I believe this draft is > now ready for WGLC'' or ``waiting for input from foo''). That's exactly what draft state sections proposed in NEWTRK WG are supposed to document. IMO, these must be present in the draft itself to let reviewers and other interested parties know what is going on. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 17:48:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05093; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Wpv-0005wY-IB; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:52:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5WX7-0006uz-Am; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:32:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5WU4-0005Xr-JL for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:29:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03177 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5WXx-0005SM-Iy for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:33:40 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89LTVGa069345; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:29:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i89LTVUK069344; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:29:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:29:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040909152619.E41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Here are a few last-minute notes. If there are things you won't have > time to fix before 15:00 Eastern, then leave them to the next revision. I think I incorporated all comments except for > Here is the excerpt from the ID-checklist, with checkable nits > marked with "yes": > 1.1 Formatting >... which I will add later as I am running out of time to format it. I wonder if your approval would be needed to post -00 version. Are team submissions treated as WG submissions? Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 18:13:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08293; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5XEy-0006dn-9R; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:18:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5X6H-0008FQ-QT; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:09:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5Wkd-0001L6-0v for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:46:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04961 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5WoV-0005uS-7d for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:50:47 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i89LkaGa070152; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:46:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i89LkaFH070151; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:46:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:46:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat In-Reply-To: <20040909180450.2f51eaf4@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040909154414.D41241@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> <20040908130311.D26617@measurement-factory.com> <20040909180450.2f51eaf4@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: On Wednesday, 8 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: >> This means that WG ticket system is our second priority, after the >> ID submission tool. If we made that decision, let our priority page >> record that. If we have not, perhaps we should postpone both or the >> last item above until we have some feedback from IETF? In other >> words, are we sure that a WG ticket system the second most >> important thing to improve? > > My understanding is that this prioritation has been requested by > IESG (through Allison) and I agree with it. This is reflected in > the prioritization Wiki page I put up yesterday... Should this be reflected in our announcement? That is, should we mention that as a second "tool" that we are already committed to work on? Or do we want to wait for IETF feedback (if any) first? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 18:47:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12525; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Xl2-0007ay-1I; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:51:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5XY0-0004O4-8C; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:37:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5XIC-0007Uu-O0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:21:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09310 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5XM8-0006nm-0s for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:25:29 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 63EC037E68; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564B337E42; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4514337E44; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5XHZ-0007yp-Tc; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:45 +0200 Message-ID: <4140D73D.2040900@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:20:45 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] (no subject) References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <20040909152619.E41241@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040909152619.E41241@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > I think I incorporated all comments except for > >> Here is the excerpt from the ID-checklist, with checkable nits marked >> with "yes": >> 1.1 Formatting >> ... > > > which I will add later as I am running out of time to format it. > > I wonder if your approval would be needed to post -00 version. Are team > submissions treated as WG submissions? I would expect so. I'll send a note to the secretariat. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 9 18:48:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12651; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5Xm0-0007cU-B8; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:52:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5XYR-0004bI-PO; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:38:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5XMG-0000tc-HI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:25:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09871 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5XQB-0006t3-PH for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:29:41 -0400 Received: by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 401F538217; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:25:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F380380B4; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:25:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2FC38006; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:25:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5XLi-000802-VP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:25:03 +0200 Message-ID: <4140D83E.2080503@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:25:02 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat References: <20040908194812.625b315a@chardonnay> <20040908130311.D26617@measurement-factory.com> <20040909180450.2f51eaf4@chardonnay> <20040909154414.D41241@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040909154414.D41241@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > On Wednesday, 8 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > >>> This means that WG ticket system is our second priority, after the ID >>> submission tool. If we made that decision, let our priority page >>> record that. If we have not, perhaps we should postpone both or the >>> last item above until we have some feedback from IETF? In other >>> words, are we sure that a WG ticket system the second most important >>> thing to improve? >> >> >> My understanding is that this prioritation has been requested by IESG >> (through Allison) and I agree with it. This is reflected in the >> prioritization Wiki page I put up yesterday... > > > Should this be reflected in our announcement? That is, should we mention > that as a second "tool" that we are already committed to work on? Or do > we want to wait for IETF feedback (if any) first? Mmm - maybe too early for that - we don't know exactly what we'll need to do in this case yet. I'd actually be fine either way, but i'd guess that in the absence of other indication, I'd leave it out - for now only. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 06:37:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA11150; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5iqJ-0002zb-56; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:41:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5ilJ-0004Fv-8N; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:36:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5ihY-0003uB-WE for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:32:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10785 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ilb-0002uI-3G for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:36:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E8D61B8D; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:31:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20060-07; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:31:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E74661AD5; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:31:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:24:39 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: stanislav shalunov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates Message-ID: <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 9. september 2004 13:14 -0400 stanislav shalunov wrote: > Another aspect of the current system that encourages duplication of > mechanisms is inability to include a note to the working group in the > submission (separate from a more static abstract); such note could > enumerate the issues addressed in the current version, sketch plans, > remind about open issues, or describe the status of the draft (e.g., > ``I believe this draft is now ready for WGLC'' or ``waiting for input > from foo''). I have argued elsewhere (newtrk) that we should encourage the inclusion of this information within the I-D; that way, it stays attached to the document, and serves to reinforce the idea that "this is a work in progress". I also think that we should (somewhere) have a log of what happened to a draft, which is wider than the log currently kept in the IESG I-D tracker - but that's also a place to put such notes. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 11:47:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07960; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ngP-0000uz-2h; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:51:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5nQW-0003SA-Qi; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:35:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5n8B-0000Lv-Es for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:16:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05446 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5nCE-0000FU-1B for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:20:21 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8AFFwwN035003; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:15:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8AFFwuK035002; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:15:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:15:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates In-Reply-To: <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I also think that we should (somewhere) have a log of what happened > to a draft, which is wider than the log currently kept in the IESG > I-D tracker - but that's also a place to put such notes. If the proposed submission interface flies, we will have more data and meta-data associated with each submission than we currently have. For example, we may have multiple formats for a given draft version and pre-extracted meta-information on authors and such. I was going to propose that each draft gets its own "object", "space", "directory", or whatever you want to call it. That "object" will accumulate all draft-specific and draft-version-specific information, including the history of updates. Tools like ID tracker would refer to or update that info. Documents and humans will be able to refer to the draft using its name (without the version number) and get access to all information currently available, including the latest version, diffs, etc. Referencing a specific version would still be supported, of course. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 12:55:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12796; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5okC-0002NY-LW; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:59:28 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5oOt-0002Fe-9C; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:37:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5nvD-0003gA-Pi for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:06:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09610 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5nzI-0001Qc-HY for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:11:01 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8AG6jwN036913 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:06:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8AG6jBF036912; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:06:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:06:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20040910095459.E34125@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Subject: [Tools-team] Hint: monitoring the entire wiki X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 I've asked whether monitoring the entire wiki for changes is possible. It seems to be possible by entering ".*" in the "Subscribed wiki pages" box of the wiki Account Preferences. I cannot check what kind of notifications one gets because self-modifications are not e-mailed to self. However, I can see that modification notifications are being sent, even for new pages, so I assume it is working. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 17:51:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12146; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5tN0-00036s-CQ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:55:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tE7-0005Ue-Hg; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:46:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tC8-0004Zj-IC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:44:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11751 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5tGG-000301-GC for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:48:53 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.7]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:44:33 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-7.sea.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8ALiWNf025003 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8ALiWTk028035 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-131-136.corp.adobe.com [153.32.131.136]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I3U00BXJHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:44:32 -0700 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I3U00BXKHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSXftbh/hCBrCg2S4mELg6MRgQRFAAAGNng X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] FW: MIME registration for application/gdiff X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Maybe IANA registration tools should be on the list? It's not "the secretariat", but it is "IETF administration", especially for registrations that require IESG approval. -----Original Message----- From: ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Lisa Dusseault Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:40 PM To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no Subject: MIME registration for application/gdiff I'm trying to register a MIME type officially for application/gdiff. This type was defined in a W3C NOTE several years ago: That Note defines the MIME type but apparently the authors never registered the MIME type with IANA. Now we'd like to use gdiff in applications where we'd be using the MIME type so having it officially registered would be nice. For example in: I submitted the registration through the IANA web form six weeks ago but haven't gotten a response other than the automated form submission response. Is this smoothly underway or is there anything else I need to or can optionally do to help this registration out? Is there anywhere to see the status of requests? Thanks, Lisa Dusseault PS I had to subscribe to this list to get my posting accepted -- I first sent this message in August but it disappeared into a black hole. Lisa _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 18:11:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14079; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5tgY-0003Su-Qn; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:16:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tY5-0005Lq-3a; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:07:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tW2-0004Kc-MT for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:05:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13056 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5taA-0003J5-VY for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:09:28 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7FC4737E4B; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:04:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA2937E43 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:04:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631ED37E45 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:04:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C5tVV-0005ve-00 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:04:37 +0200 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:04:36 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040911000436.452db422@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Announcement to ietf and wgchairs lists X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've now sent out the announcement on the ietf and wgchairs lists - let's see what kind of feedback we get :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 18:34:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16387; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5u2M-0003r8-9x; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tur-0006ts-51; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:30:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tpP-0005Fb-L6 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:25:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15633 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5ttX-0003gU-NC for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:29:29 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8AMP3wN052366; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8AMP3dE052365; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:25:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Announcement to ietf and wgchairs lists In-Reply-To: <20040911000436.452db422@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040910162340.Y34125@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040911000436.452db422@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > I've now sent out the announcement on the ietf and wgchairs lists > - let's see what kind of feedback we get :-) I thought we agreed to send it to rfc-interest as well. Did I misunderstood? Not a big deal either way. How about also bouncing it to tools-discuss, to prime the archive? Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 18:34:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16466; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5u2j-0003rz-Lu; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5tvK-0007C8-JD; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:31:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5ttY-0006Ec-8s for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:29:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16189 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5txh-0003n6-KA for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:33:45 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8AMTPwN052556; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:29:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8AMTPlv052555; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:29:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:29:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] FW: MIME registration for application/gdiff In-Reply-To: <0I3U00BXKHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <20040910162510.P34125@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I3U00BXKHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > Maybe IANA registration tools should be on the list? > It's not "the secretariat", but it is "IETF administration", > especially for registrations that require IESG approval. I think it should be added, once we have the XML tool database in place. I am supposed to post a draft XML format on team wiki and will try to do that today. You should probably add it to public wiki for now; we can easily grab stuff from there without introducing conflicts... Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 10 19:47:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20530; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5vBD-0004zp-HD; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:51:48 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5uy9-0005Ld-CP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:38:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C5uwE-0004Xg-E3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:36:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20007 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C5v0N-0004p8-Ai for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:40:36 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B369138B31; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCC538B2D; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936EE3800A; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C5uvh-0003zj-Em; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:45 +0200 Message-ID: <41423A50.10001@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:44 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Announcement to ietf and wgchairs lists References: <20040911000436.452db422@chardonnay> <20040910162340.Y34125@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040910162340.Y34125@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > > I thought we agreed to send it to rfc-interest as well. Did I > misunderstood? Not a big deal either way. Nope, it's just late enough here that I forgot :-) Thanks for the reminder. > How about also bouncing it to tools-discuss, to prime the archive? Good idea. Done. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 11 03:17:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28853; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C62CX-0003H8-QG; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:21:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C625a-0005gz-Mr; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:14:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C620Z-0004wE-G1 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:09:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28658 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C624m-0003Bu-H5 for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 03:13:38 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A7BAC37ECB; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av5-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E8B37E81 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A70737E44 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C6200-0008KN-00 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:08:40 +0200 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:08:39 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040911090839.2ce1f30b@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Fw: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... Forwarding this to the tools-team list with Bernard's permission. Henrik -------- Begin forwarded message: -------- Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:02:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bernard Aboba To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions? Thanks for asking. Personally, I would like the following tools: a. A tool for automatic submission of Internet Drafts. In IEEE 802 it is possible for participants to submit documents and have them be instantly available on the web site. I'd like to see the IETF do the same thing, particularly since human intervention in the submission process adds considerable delay and expense. To avoid formatting problems, perhaps the "ID-NITs" script could be run on submissions prior to accepting them, to make sure they are acceptable. b. One or more formally supported issue tracking systems. While we have a number of tools used today, including RT, Roundup, Bugzilla, etc. they are not formally supported. For example, Roundup has some patches for IETF use that aren't incorporated in the normal Roundup build, so when a new version of Roundup comes out you need to apply the patches all over again. So I'd like to see one or more tools customized for IETF with the customization included in the official builds. If we have to set some money aside for support to make this happen, this is probably not a big problem, assuming that the TOOLS team thinks it is the right thing to do. I'd also like to see the IETF formally host one or more of the Issue tracking tools so that any WG interested could get access to a hosted tracker. I think we can probably come up with the funds for this if we had one or more tracking tools that could be hosted in an economical way and a proposal for the support arrangements for maintaining them. c. Archive access tools. The IETF doesn't maintain an archive of old drafts, but I think this is something we should move towards. If and when we do this, it might be nice to have a search facility somewhat more sophisticated than what is available on say, http://www.watersprings.org/. On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > (This is a copy of a posting made to the ietf@ietf.org mailing list > - I think that wgchairs may have particularly interesting tool > suggestions, so don't want you to miss it :-) /Henrik) > > > IETFers, > > Do you have ideas for software tools that would make your IETF work > easier? Do you have feedback about current IETF automation efforts? > > As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations and structure, > a Tools team has been chartered to develop requirements for additional > and revised electronic tools to aid in the IETF operations. > > The charter of the Tools team (found at the IETF Tools web site, > http://tools.ietf.org/) focuses initially on tools to improve the > interface between IETF administration and the broader community; but > will also look at tools to aid in the operation of individual working > groups and the tasks of standards development. > > The Tools team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general comments, > to be refined into a series of tool specifications. Tool specifications > will then be used to implement or adopt software for IETF. > > The first item on Tools team list is the automation of draft submission > to allow for quick and painless validation and posting of Internet-Drafts. > The first document describing the new draft submission tool is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-00.txt > > What should we work on next? Please visit the list of possible future > tools and send us additions as well as priority preferences: > http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolSuggestions > > Please send all Tools-related feedback to tools-discuss@ietf.org, a > newly formed mailing list; do this also if you add information to the > wiki pages. Subscription instructions: > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > -------- > > The members of the tools team are: > > * Alex Rousskov > * Bill Fenner > * Larry Masinter > * Stanislav Shalunov > * Henrik Levkowetz (chair) > > Schedule: > > The group will initially focus on additional tools for use in the > interface between the IETF administration and the broader IETF > community. The first draft of a set of requirements for an > Internet-Drafts Submission Tool has been posted, and feedback is > welcome. > > Other administrative tools are expected to be specified over the next > six months. We will put together a list and priority schedule within > that time frame. > > The Tools team may also conduct polls within the community for input on > priorities, requirements, and feedback on currently deployed tools. > > After the initial focus on administrative tools, the group will turn > its attention to tools of use for aiding working groups, authors and > other parts of the IETF community. > > -------- > > Regards, > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 12 15:32:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07370; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6a9l-0006lJ-Ol; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:37:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6a4I-000157-PM; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:31:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6ZzD-00074F-Mz for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:26:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06829 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6a3k-0006df-F3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:30:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493EB61B7D; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:25:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06538-02; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:25:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A21861AD4; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:25:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:41:11 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Larry Masinter , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] FW: MIME registration for application/gdiff Message-ID: <0D5D487A281AA1636446ACF6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <0I3U00BXKHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> References: <0I3U00BXKHQ8RN@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 10. september 2004 14:44 -0700 Larry Masinter wrote: > Maybe IANA registration tools should be on the list? > It's not "the secretariat", but it is "IETF administration", > especially for registrations that require IESG approval. Definitely belongs on the list. For now, it should probably be listed as "for completeness". > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no > [mailto:ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Lisa Dusseault > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:40 PM > To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no > Subject: MIME registration for application/gdiff > > I'm trying to register a MIME type officially for application/gdiff. > This type was defined in a W3C NOTE several years ago: > > > > That Note defines the MIME type but apparently the authors never > registered the MIME type with IANA. Now we'd like to use gdiff in > applications where we'd be using the MIME type so having it officially > registered would be nice. For example in: > > > > I submitted the registration through the IANA web form six weeks ago > but haven't gotten a response other than the automated form submission > response. Is this smoothly underway or is there anything else I need > to or can optionally do to help this registration out? Is there > anywhere to see the status of requests? > > Thanks, > Lisa Dusseault > > PS I had to subscribe to this list to get my posting accepted -- I > first sent this message in August but it disappeared into a black hole. > > Lisa > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 12 18:13:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15903; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6cfP-0000os-W8; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:17:52 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6cU7-00034c-HE; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:06:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6cTG-0002mZ-PC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:05:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14933 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6cXp-0000eF-Rq for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:10:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F7061BB9; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:04:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09385-08; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6888861B9F; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:04:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:07:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 10. september 2004 09:15 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> I also think that we should (somewhere) have a log of what happened >> to a draft, which is wider than the log currently kept in the IESG >> I-D tracker - but that's also a place to put such notes. > > If the proposed submission interface flies, we will have more data and > meta-data associated with each submission than we currently have. For > example, we may have multiple formats for a given draft version and > pre-extracted meta-information on authors and such. We have that today. It is just not exposed on a public interface. The secretariat manually extracts author information, title and abstract from the drafts and puts it into their internal database. That's where the I-D announcements come from. (sometimes this gets messed up - there have been I-D announcements where the secretariat did not notice that the title had changed from version N to version N+1, so the announce went out with the old title. Automatic extraction SHOULD help here.) > I was going to propose that each draft gets its own "object", "space", > "directory", or whatever you want to call it. That "object" will > accumulate all draft-specific and draft-version-specific information, > including the history of updates. Tools like ID tracker would refer to or > update that info. > > Documents and humans will be able to refer to the draft using its name > (without the version number) and get access to all information currently > available, including the latest version, diffs, etc. Referencing a > specific version would still be supported, of course. That is more than an I-D submission mechanism. I'd like to have it too, but it's a bigger kettle of fish than the first tool. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 12 23:31:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA03704; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6hdG-0005ZO-VM; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:35:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6hXp-0005oq-6X; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:30:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6hVj-0005VS-Ck for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:28:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA03322 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6haK-0005Tu-IV for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:32:57 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D3S4wN010880; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:28:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8D3S4LB010879; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:28:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:28:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040912211834.J10289@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > --On 10. september 2004 09:15 -0600 Alex Rousskov > wrote: > >> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> >>> I also think that we should (somewhere) have a log of what happened >>> to a draft, which is wider than the log currently kept in the IESG >>> I-D tracker - but that's also a place to put such notes. >> >> If the proposed submission interface flies, we will have more data and >> meta-data associated with each submission than we currently have. For >> example, we may have multiple formats for a given draft version and >> pre-extracted meta-information on authors and such. > > We have that today. It is just not exposed on a public interface. > The secretariat manually extracts author information, title and abstract from > the drafts and puts it into their internal database. That's where the I-D > announcements come from. Yes, except for multiple draft formats. I also suspect that the information automated interface will extract or ask for and collect will [eventually] be different from what Secretariat stores manually today; simply because automation changes the cost/benefit factor a lot. > That is more than an I-D submission mechanism. I'd like to have it > too, but it's a bigger kettle of fish than the first tool. I agree. Note, however, that the current list of _Secretariat_ requirements for the ID submission tool already includes draft manipulation/visualization requirements. While out of ID submission scope, these things are closely related, and we should start documenting them soon to avoid asking Secretariat to re-do a lot of fresh work. We might not get into specifics within the next few weeks, but we at least should try to show/document the direction we think draft storage, maintenance, and visualization should be going. I am not sure whether a wiki or another draft is the right place to accumulate those thoughts. A wiki sounds a little more appropriate at this time, but I am also worried that our current team wiki is already quite messy. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 00:42:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07778; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6ikA-0006py-4W; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:47:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6iaD-0005g1-LV; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:36:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6iZ2-0005Zs-Pr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:35:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07287 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6ide-0006i8-7x; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:40:27 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D4ZawN013484; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:35:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8D4Zax7013483; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:35:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:35:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Contacting the Secretariat In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909110952.00aa1af0@colossus.foretec.com> Message-ID: <20040912222521.O10289@measurement-factory.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909110952.00aa1af0@colossus.foretec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Harald suggested that I send you some information on the > Secretariat's current effors to update its contact information on > the IETF Web site. This project has become a high-priority since > several people have expressed confusion over the use of the aliases > "iesg-secretary" vs. "ietf-secretariat" vs. "ietf-action." Barbara, Thank you for sharing these details with us! I do not know whether TOOLS team can generate a coherent analysis of this complex problem. We may not have enough information, or we may have conflicting reactions to it. Nevertheless, we should at least try as this is an important issue, partially within TOOLS scope. I have read your e-mails and tried to identify specific problems your actions seem to address. I drafted a response based on that dissection. I will send that draft with the next e-mail. Please note that I do not know whether other team members agree with my draft. I suspect there will be significant changes; the whole draft may be thrown out! If you decide to read that draft before it is reviewed by the entire team, please check whether my identification of problems is accurate. We should probably postpone debates regarding analysis and team suggestions until the team polishes or throws out the draft... Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 00:48:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA08194; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6iqT-0006yb-Da; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:53:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6igh-0006aI-PJ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:43:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6ica-0005zo-BH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:39:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07464 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6ihD-0006lP-0B for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:44:07 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D4dIwN013682 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:39:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8D4dIjl013681; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:39:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:39:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c54bc2f42d02429833c0ca4b8725abd7 Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0770535483960d190d4a0d020e7060bd Hi, I tried to draft our reaction to the Secretariat's "current efforts to update its contact information on the IETF Web site" (as detailed in Barbara's forwarded e-mails). This is my personal opinion and this is just an initial sketch. This is not TOOLs team reaction yet, and it may never become one! If there are suggestions to use a different format for our response or even a completely different set of recommendations, I am all ears. Could TOOLs team members review and contribute, so that we can send a decent respond to the Secretariat and IESG? Thank you, Alex. --- Review of proposed changes to Secretariat Requests interface --- Disclaimer: The TOOLs team does not have complete information about the problems discussed in Secretariat-IESG e-mail exchanges. Our lack of details, context, and stats may have resulted in wrong observations and advice. This review contains a "general observations" rant followed by specific problem analysis and recommendations. General observation: While cleaning up aliases is useful, we would recommend to look at changing the primary interface instead. An informal e-mail interface is incapable of efficiently handling large volumes of diverse queries and non-queries. An appropriate web interface should be used instead, with e-mail left for exceptional situations. E-mail query/response interface gives virtually unlimited freedom (and no instructions) to the query submitter and places all the burden of deciphering submitter's intent on Secretariat. A web interface that let's submitter classify her own request, with immediate context-sensitive instructions and feedback is much more efficient. A web interface also makes it easy to monitor the status of the submitted query. An informal e-mail interface should be left to exceptional situations only. It may have just one alias, protected by a "request confirmation" admission control scheme to eliminate spam and non-requests (see below for more details on that). It should be made clear to all users of e-mail interface that e-mail is discouraged and that their query will usually have lower priority that queries submitted on the web. Specifics: Specific problems and suggestions are discussed below, in no particular order. We did our best to isolate the problems that Secretariat is trying to solve, but since they were not clearly identified in the Secretariat e-mails, we may have missed or misunderstood a few. Please correct us as necessary. 1) Problem: users mis-categorize requests by using wrong aliases users are frustrated because they cannot pick an alias Secretariat solution: change aliases names to more intuitive names Analysis: The solution is likely to have marginal effect due to user diversity and natural language limitation (general terms used for alias names cannot reliably distinguish related categories). TOOLs suggestions: Do not rely on alias names to mean the same request category to most IETFers. Other interface aspects should maximize correct category choice. For example, a web page created for submission of requests can force user to select a category and then explain the details of the category selected. Mistaken users can then back off and re-categorize their request. E-mail requests must be confirmed to become active and request for confirmation may include explanation of the alias being used. 2) Problem: takes too long to re-categorize mis-categorized requests Secretariat solution: minimize mis-categorized requests Analysis: minimization of mis-categorized requests is the right approach, but it is possible that more can be done. TOOLs suggestions: In addition to reducing the number of mis-categorized requests, use back-end that makes it trivial to change the category and that informs affected parties of the changes. It should not take more that a couple of mouse clicks for Secretariat to re-categorize a mis-filed request. 3) Problem: Users left in the dark w.r.t. current request status Secretariat solution: n/a TOOLs suggestions: for each accepted (queued) request, respond with a "ticket number" and a user-accessible URL where ticket status and queue length/progress can be viewed. The ticket number can be used as password to protect sensitive information if needed. 4) Problem: Spam and non-requests entering request queues Secretariat solution: intuitive, non-queued aliases to reduce non-requests Analysis: Spammers will eventually spam all public e-mail addresses. If any such address is directly attached to the request queue, spam will enter that queue. Humans will continue to CC wrong aliases, causing non-requests to be queued. TOOLs suggestions: Both spam and legitimate non-requests can be eliminated with a simple admission control scheme. The scheme would explicitly ask the submitter to confirm received request via e-mail or web. Confirmed requests will be queued. Other requests will be dropped with no further actions. It usually takes about a minute to complete the request with these admission controls in place -- a negligible expense (on the part of requester) in both absolute and relative terms. 5) Problem: Individual mailboxes is a poor mechanism to manage user requests for many obvious reasons Secretariat solution: automatically forward most requests (based on request alias) to RT Analysis: This sounds like the right thing to do and, if good admission controls are in place, should be very effective. 6) Problem: Lack of request categorization Secretariat solution: add more categories (RT queues) Analysis: This sounds like the right thing to do, provided the user interface makes it easy for the user to pick the right category and double check their selection before activating the request (e-mail interface cannot do the former). TOOLs suggestions: investigate whether some common requests may have overlapping categories. For example, can a "WG action" or an "IESG action" also require some technical troubleshooting relevant to tech-support category. Can a "WG action" involve IESG? How will the user and Secretariat interfaces handle such overlaps? 7) Problem: Duplicate aliases Secretariat solution: remove duplicated aliases Analysis: Cleanup is good, but Secretariat efficiency is unlikely to be significantly improved just because there are fewer aliases to handle. In other words, this should be done, but duplicate aliases do not affect the bottleneck and their removal should not be a top-priority item. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 01:23:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA10335; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6jNd-0007a6-L7; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:27:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6jH3-0004S0-2g; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:21:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6jEU-0004Dq-Fk for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:18:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA10176 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6jJ6-0007Wv-BC for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:23:17 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:25 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8D5I4bA020026; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8D5I4kq002595; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.176.17]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I3Y00HDFS233D@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:03 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat In-reply-to: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> To: "'Alex Rousskov'" , tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I3Y00HDGS233D@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSZTPpatQ19pDz/R927ZtvE9YCUlAAA5vEw X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think the proper approach is to actually analyze the workflows and diagram them before trying to evaluate individual local optimizations. I'm reluctant to endorse any of these suggestions as "the right thing to do". _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 02:15:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26727; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6kCC-0008Oe-0A; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:20:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6k2l-00052F-2M; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:10:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6k03-0004Kd-1y for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:07:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20099 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6k4f-0008Gg-A4 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:12:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F9961B8E; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26208-04; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:07:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6637A61AD4; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:07:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:04:20 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates Message-ID: <4513B8351FBE9130B23FC301@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20040912211834.J10289@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> <20040912211834.J10289@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 12. september 2004 21:28 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> --On 10. september 2004 09:15 -0600 Alex Rousskov >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >>> >>>> I also think that we should (somewhere) have a log of what happened >>>> to a draft, which is wider than the log currently kept in the IESG >>>> I-D tracker - but that's also a place to put such notes. >>> >>> If the proposed submission interface flies, we will have more data and >>> meta-data associated with each submission than we currently have. For >>> example, we may have multiple formats for a given draft version and >>> pre-extracted meta-information on authors and such. >> >> We have that today. It is just not exposed on a public interface. >> The secretariat manually extracts author information, title and abstract >> from the drafts and puts it into their internal database. That's where >> the I-D announcements come from. > > Yes, except for multiple draft formats. We have that too - look at the .pdf and .ps files in the I-D directory. > I also suspect that the > information automated interface will extract or ask for and collect will > [eventually] be different from what Secretariat stores manually today; > simply because automation changes the cost/benefit factor a lot. Agreed. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 05:54:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11369; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6nbx-0003pA-B1; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:59:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6nWI-0001OK-AU; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:53:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6nVK-0001H1-66 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:52:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11244 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6nZy-0003n1-Ue for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:57:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCED61BB9; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30334-03; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C9661AD4; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:36:07 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat Message-ID: <201203F64AE61785620C83F4@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, I totally disagree with your main assertion that "email contact should be left for exceptional situations". It effectively stops people from getting work done (as opposed to prepared) while they are off-net. And while connectivity has improved considerably over the last few years, I think this is an inappropriate change. The cost of appropriately classifying an emailed request is (I think) on the order of seconds to minutes - with average probably less than a minute (for "ordinary" requests), albeit with a LONG tail for badly formed requests. This cost is centralized at the secretariat. The cost of being unable to finish tasks while not connected is distributed throughout the organization. And don't forget the cost of frustration while trying to express a reasonable request through a Web interface; my experience with "web ticket submission systems" in non-IETF contexts is that they at times seem indented to maximize frustration.... That said, I approve of Web systems for "self service" operation - but in the cases where a human will have to evaluate your request anyway, I think Web interfaces are more than a little overrated. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 05:54:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11387; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6nc7-0003pK-IO; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:59:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6nWI-0001OS-H6; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:53:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6nVK-0001H3-Em for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:52:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11247 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6na0-0003nK-7u for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:57:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB7361AD4; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30527-01; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99BB61B92; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:40:07 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat Message-ID: <118B92198D7147689E77D1C2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040910222632.C64239@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Note on the tools team responding: I explicitly asked Barbara to send you this note for information, NOT for action. I want the tools team to maximize its understanding of what the secretariat does and how it does it - I do NOT want the tools team to approve, disapprove or attempt to modify the changes that are suggested at this juncture. So - do NOT have the team respond on the message, but incorporate the information into the "higher level understanding" picture. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 13 11:08:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07218; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6sVw-0001pA-H1; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:13:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6sIf-0001Am-FB; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:59:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C6sEz-0000bd-9k for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:55:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06038 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C6sJg-0001XA-Bj for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:00:29 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8DEtUwN035006; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:55:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8DEtUuF035005; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:55:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:55:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] automation of I-D submission and frequency of updates In-Reply-To: <4513B8351FBE9130B23FC301@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: <20040913085329.B34252@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040901185655.1fed7c29@chardonnay> <20040902155029.N474@measurement-factory.com> <20040909175847.16d297b9@chardonnay> <864qm7gya4.fsf_-_@abel.internet2.edu> <13ACEE19E776AA84D7DDC8D3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <20040910090848.D34125@measurement-factory.com> <20040912211834.J10289@measurement-factory.com> <4513B8351FBE9130B23FC301@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> Yes, except for multiple draft formats. > > We have that too - look at the .pdf and .ps files in the I-D > directory. I stand corrected. There are indeed several .pdf and .ps files accompanying plain text drafts. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 14 13:06:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25627; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7Gqa-0002TN-HP; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:12:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7GaN-0004Db-03; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:55:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7GG2-0007uz-Rx for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:34:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23275 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7GKz-0001c5-7H for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:39:25 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.62] (helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1C7GG0-0003kQ-00; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:34:16 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040913134703.021aeee8@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:29:32 -0400 To: tools-team@ietf.org From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Subject: [Tools-team] IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists Web Page X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0110418627==" Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b --===============0110418627== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_16398179==_.ALT" --=====================_16398179==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear TOOLS Team: For your information, the IETF Secretariat has deployed a new Web page, the "IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" page. This new Web page provides a list of active, publicly visible mailing lists that are of interest to IETF participants but are not the primary mailing lists of IETF working groups. The URL for the Web page is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list.cgi. The Secretariat has also created a Web interface, the "IETF Non-WG Mailing List Submission Page," for adding a new list to the "IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" page, or updating the information on an existing entry. The URL for this Web interface is https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list_submit.cgi. Work on both the "IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" Web page and the "IETF Non-WG Mailing List Submission Page" was initiated prior to the formation of the TOOLS Team, and both have been reviewed, tested, and approved for deployment by Harald. Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 --=====================_16398179==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA23275 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear TOOLS Team:

For your information, the IETF Secretariat has deployed a new Web page, the =93IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" page.  This new Web page provides a list of active, publicly visible mailing lists that are of interest to IETF participants but are not the primary mailing lists of IETF working groups.  The URL for the Web page is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list.cgi.
The Secretariat has also created a Web interface, the "IETF Non-WG Mailing List Submission Page," for adding a new list to the =93IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" page, or updating the information on an existing entry.  The URL for this Web interface is https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list_submit.cgi<= /a>.

Work on both the =93IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" Web page and the "IETF Non-WG Mailing List Submission Page" was initiated prior to the formation of the TOOLS Team, and both have been reviewed, tested, and approved for deployment by Harald.

Regards,

Barbara

------------------------------------------------
Barbara B. Fuller
Acting Executive Director
Internet Engineering Task Force

Natick, Massachusetts Office:

Phone: +1-508-650-4020
Fax:     +1-508-650-4639

Reston, Virginia Office:

Phone: +1-703-620-9053
Fax:     +1-703-620-9071 --=====================_16398179==_.ALT-- --===============0110418627== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --===============0110418627==-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 14 14:03:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00497; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7HjB-0003ff-Od; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:08:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7HUK-0006xX-NR; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:53:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7HQd-0005ud-Ag for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:49:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29351 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7HVa-0003Lq-6N for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:54:26 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5001438212; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:48:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E35D38228; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:48:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C2B37E6C; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:48:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C7HQ5-0003a0-1x; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:48:45 +0200 Message-ID: <41472EFD.4080503@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:48:45 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists Web Page References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040913134703.021aeee8@colossus.foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040913134703.021aeee8@colossus.foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barbara,=20 Thanks for the notification :-)=20 I've added links to these two pages to the (still incomplete)=20 secretariat-tools page on http://tools.ietf.org/ . I found a lot of lists I didn't know existed on the non-wg lists page - very useful. Henrik Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Dear TOOLS Team: >=20 > For your information, the IETF Secretariat has deployed a new Web page,= =20 > the =93IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" page. This new Web page provides a l= ist=20 > of active, publicly visible mailing lists that are of interest to IETF=20 > participants but are not the primary mailing lists of IETF working=20 > groups. The URL for the Web page is:=20 > _https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list.cgi_. >=20 > The Secretariat has also created a Web interface, the "IETF Non-WG=20 > Mailing List Submission Page," for adding a new list to the =93IETF Non= -WG=20 > Mailing Lists" page, or updating the information on an existing entry. = =20 > The URL for this Web interface is=20 > _https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/nwg_list_submit.cgi_. >=20 > Work on both the =93IETF Non-WG Mailing Lists" Web page and the "IETF=20 > Non-WG Mailing List Submission Page" was initiated prior to the=20 > formation of the TOOLS Team, and both have been reviewed, tested, and=20 > approved for deployment by Harald. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Barbara >=20 > ------------------------------------------------ > Barbara B. Fuller > Acting Executive Director > Internet Engineering Task Force >=20 > Natick, Massachusetts Office: >=20 > Phone: +1-508-650-4020 > Fax: +1-508-650-4639 >=20 > Reston, Virginia Office: >=20 > Phone: +1-703-620-9053 > Fax: +1-703-620-9071 >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 14 14:20:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01791; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7HzS-0003y6-8O; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:25:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7Hgp-0005lq-T0; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:06:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7HdJ-00058k-3y for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:02:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00416 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7HiF-0003dl-7f for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:07:32 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 986EF38085; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:01:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141DE380A5; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:01:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C286B3800A; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:01:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C7Hcl-0003g9-CC; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:01:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4147320F.8070601@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:01:51 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Macintosh/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hgs@cs.columbia.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] EDAS adaptation for the IETF? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henning, James Kempf pointed me at EDAS, which I was not familiar with, in connection with the tools-team work on defining requirements for an automated draft submission tool for the IETF. As I understand you're the author of the system (and maintainer?) I'm wondering about the feasability of adapting this to IETF's needs; whether you'd permit this to be done; and the cost (if any?) associated with giving the IETF access to the source for adaptation. If it is feasible to adapt EDAS to the IETF needs, it would be a pity not to explore this possibility. Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 14 23:45:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23888; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7QoT-0000vi-SB; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:50:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7QiC-0001h8-OP; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:44:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7Q9y-0003DL-Br for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:08:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21576 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu ([128.59.16.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7QEz-0000HY-3L for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:13:54 -0400 Received: from razor.cs.columbia.edu (IDENT:MF/Bv80P6SAfrCuyM3OX6cOg0roYiXnv@razor.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.8]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8F38PtW019418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (IDENT:iz5bwaP9tEo4kJACtKXrSW8UzbcTwOFM@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by razor.cs.columbia.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8F38Olh001711; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:08:24 -0400 Message-ID: <4147B22A.4080100@cs.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:08:26 -0400 From: Henning Schulzrinne User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf , tools-team@ietf.org, henrik@levkowetz.com References: <00c001c49a77$bced23a0$536115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> In-Reply-To: <00c001c49a77$bced23a0$536115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.0.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.9.14.4 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:43:52 -0400 Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Conference Submission Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Answering both your emails at once. James Kempf wrote: > Hi Henning, > > I'm trying to get IETF to consider EDAS for Internet Draft submissions. My > experience so far with it is good, but I think IETF should do due diligence > and compare it with others. I'd be happy to make EDAS available for the purpose. However, I believe that, like most conference management tools, the submission part is actually only a tiny part of its functionality. It has lots of other parts, like reviewer management, conflict-of-interest resolution and such, that are of no use for I-D submission. Scale is not an issue: EDAS currently manages about 10,000 papers a year, probably more, and has about 50,000 unique registered users. You can try it out, as a guest user using the test conference, at http://edas.info/ > > I've heard that there are 4 or 5 conference submission tools. Do you know > what the others are? There are lots. http://www-adele.imag.fr/~jmfavre/ENSEIGNEMENT/CASDETUDE/Conferences/ has one summary. > James Kempf pointed me at EDAS, which I was not familiar with, > in connection with the tools-team work on defining requirements > for an automated draft submission tool for the IETF. > > As I understand you're the author of the system (and maintainer?) Correct. > I'm wondering about the feasability of adapting this to IETF's > needs; whether you'd permit this to be done; and the cost (if any?) > associated with giving the IETF access to the source for adaptation. > > If it is feasible to adapt EDAS to the IETF needs, it would be a > pity not to explore this possibility. In my personal opinion, I would recommend against trying to use a conference management system, except maybe as an inspiration or short-term measure. (Certainly, EDAS, and other such systems, as is, would beat the current manual system...) Among other reasons, conference management systems I know do not have two vital functions: - versioning (submitting updated versions of a draft) - chair approvals (for WG -00 documents) - automatic generation of appropriately structured listings I'd be happy to provide my experiences based on running very large conferences, where authors submit thousands of papers on very short notice (sound familiar? :-). Having written several such systems over the past decade (EDAS as well as a large process management system for my department), my opinions: - Stay away from any system written in Perl or any system that does not use standard, widely-available libraries for forms generation, tables and similar functionality. (This includes many JSP and Java servlet systems). Ignore this advice if you believe that the system once written will remain the same forever and will require no changes. - Java servlet systems tend to be brittle. Just ask NSF FastLane on deadline days.... - The hard part usually ignored by writers of such systems is people management. Unless you have biometric identifiers, you will get the same person into the system under several different user id's. There needs to be functionality to merge identities, typically by an admin. (EDAS has this; many other systems don't, which is ok if you manage a single conference, not good if you manage events over a long time span.) You need people management to allow managed updating of I-Ds. - Web upload works most of the time, but ftp, with automatic sweeping, is sometimes needed. (We find that web upload doesn't seem to work well for large files and slow links.) While it may be more painful initially, my recommendation would be to write a system tailored to the task. It will cost a few thousand $, but trying to make review systems (i.e., conference management system) do I-D submission duty is probably shortsighted, as much of the functionality will be different. If you care, I'd be glad to give you more of my 2c. > > jak > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 15 10:28:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07806; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7aql-0004Z4-37; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:33:36 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7aUZ-0004XE-Qm; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:10:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7aMU-0001Us-C6 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:02:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05020 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7aRY-000458-OU for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:07:36 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A474237FEA; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:01:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A1237E4A for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:01:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB3A37E44 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:01:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C7aLs-00018V-00 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:01:40 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:01:39 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040915160139.2e6f3b4d@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the connection details and proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. * I've been considering the WG-chair ticket system concept, and reading Barbara's description of the system and changes, and it seems to me that the only suggestion I'd make is to put a challenge-response verification step in front of the RT system they are putting in place now. Suggest we discuss this. 3. Action item review. * All: give feedback on current revision of I-D submission tool requirements - before 12:00 EST tomorrow Thursday * Alex: submits current draft by 15:00 EST tomorrow Thursday Done * Allison: Get information from Harald about wg-chair ticket system Part done - info about address changes received, but not about wg-chair ticket system in particular. * Henrik : does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for a wg-chair currently. * Henrik: After the tools-discuss list announcement has gone out, solicit input on how a ticket system interface for the WG chairs should look * All: Propose an interface for wg-chair interaction with ticket system - email address - web page - ticket handling * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content * Henrik: Send announcement of tools-discuss mailing list once the draft is available in the archives Done * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions * Henrik: continue the inventory on the web site. Finished by next Tuesday. All categories filled in, but I'm not sure all tools have been captured * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies of the meeting minutes. 4. Next steps 5. Any other business. 6. Action items, summary 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 22 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 15 13:37:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22884; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7doK-00009o-JV; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:43:16 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7dYY-0005PZ-Sx; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:26:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7bBt-0001S4-MC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:55:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10493 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7bH1-0005CM-Ms for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:00:44 -0400 Message-ID: <002e01c49b34$263022b0$536115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> From: "James Kempf" To: "Henning Schulzrinne" , , References: <00c001c49a77$bced23a0$536115ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> <4147B22A.4080100@cs.columbia.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:26:57 -0400 Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Conference Submission Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henning, Thanx for your insights. Your experience with EDAS would certainly be invaluable in developing an automated document submission system for IETF, and I hope the tools-team can work with you on it. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henning Schulzrinne" To: "James Kempf" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Conference Submission Tools > Answering both your emails at once. > > James Kempf wrote: > > Hi Henning, > > > > I'm trying to get IETF to consider EDAS for Internet Draft submissions. My > > experience so far with it is good, but I think IETF should do due diligence > > and compare it with others. > > I'd be happy to make EDAS available for the purpose. However, I believe > that, like most conference management tools, the submission part is > actually only a tiny part of its functionality. It has lots of other > parts, like reviewer management, conflict-of-interest resolution and > such, that are of no use for I-D submission. > > Scale is not an issue: EDAS currently manages about 10,000 papers a > year, probably more, and has about 50,000 unique registered users. > > You can try it out, as a guest user using the test conference, at > http://edas.info/ > > > > > I've heard that there are 4 or 5 conference submission tools. Do you know > > what the others are? > > There are lots. > http://www-adele.imag.fr/~jmfavre/ENSEIGNEMENT/CASDETUDE/Conferences/ > has one summary. > > > James Kempf pointed me at EDAS, which I was not familiar with, > > in connection with the tools-team work on defining requirements > > for an automated draft submission tool for the IETF. > > > > As I understand you're the author of the system (and maintainer?) > > Correct. > > > I'm wondering about the feasability of adapting this to IETF's > > needs; whether you'd permit this to be done; and the cost (if any?) > > associated with giving the IETF access to the source for adaptation. > > > > If it is feasible to adapt EDAS to the IETF needs, it would be a > > pity not to explore this possibility. > > In my personal opinion, I would recommend against trying to use a > conference management system, except maybe as an inspiration or > short-term measure. (Certainly, EDAS, and other such systems, as is, > would beat the current manual system...) Among other reasons, > conference management systems I know do not have two vital functions: > - versioning (submitting updated versions of a draft) > - chair approvals (for WG -00 documents) > - automatic generation of appropriately structured listings > > I'd be happy to provide my experiences based on running very large > conferences, where authors submit thousands of papers on very short > notice (sound familiar? :-). > > Having written several such systems over the past decade (EDAS as well > as a large process management system for my department), my opinions: > > - Stay away from any system written in Perl or any system that does not > use standard, widely-available libraries for forms generation, tables > and similar functionality. (This includes many JSP and Java servlet > systems). Ignore this advice if you believe that the system once written > will remain the same forever and will require no changes. > > - Java servlet systems tend to be brittle. Just ask NSF FastLane on > deadline days.... > > - The hard part usually ignored by writers of such systems is people > management. Unless you have biometric identifiers, you will get the same > person into the system under several different user id's. There needs to > be functionality to merge identities, typically by an admin. (EDAS has > this; many other systems don't, which is ok if you manage a single > conference, not good if you manage events over a long time span.) You > need people management to allow managed updating of I-Ds. > > - Web upload works most of the time, but ftp, with automatic sweeping, > is sometimes needed. (We find that web upload doesn't seem to work well > for large files and slow links.) > > While it may be more painful initially, my recommendation would be to > write a system tailored to the task. It will cost a few thousand $, but > trying to make review systems (i.e., conference management system) do > I-D submission duty is probably shortsighted, as much of the > functionality will be different. > > If you care, I'd be glad to give you more of my 2c. > > > > > > > jak > > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 15 13:46:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23509; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7dwC-0000Kl-CC; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:51:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7dgT-0006rt-Sr; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:35:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7dU8-00051e-By for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:22:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21728 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7dZH-0008Hg-Op for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:27:44 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id D20D737ED9; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:21:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AE437E7E for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:21:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D3E37E5E for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:21:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C7dTa-0007wF-CP for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:21:50 +0200 Message-ID: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:21:49 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 48472a944c87678fcfe8db15ffecdfff Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ccfb4541e989aa743998098cd315d0fd Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. * I've been considering the WG-chair ticket system concept, and reading Barbara's description of the system and changes, and it seems to me that the only suggestion I'd make is to put a challenge-response verification step in front of the RT system they are putting in place now. Suggest we discuss this. - Bill: It would be good to have some kind of access to tickets created. That would be an improvement . - Henrik: But before putting this in place, we need a policy decision to actually opening up the possibility to access the tickets. - Henrik: Thoughts on putting challenge response handling in front of the ticket system, so every new ticket would need validation? This would stop both spam generated tickets, and tickets generated by people CC:'ing the ticket email address. - Harald: Hmm, not so happy - that would mean double work, to confirm every ticket creation - Alex: it would mean you couldn't work off line in the same manner as without confirmation of every ticket - Henrik: The alternative of only confirming the validity of the email address the first time someone sends in a ticket will get rid of the spam, but not the false tickets generated by CC:ing the ticket system. To know whether it would be a win to do this, we need to get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses. * Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses (* Investigate validity of spam from addresses) * Solicit information from chairs list regarding wg-chairs tickets handling via web pages. ... (discussion details lost because of connectivity loss) - Bill: It seems Zope may have the possibility to give selective access to different areas, to different people. * Bill will send a little summary of his experiences so far to the list 3. Action item review. * All: give feedback on current revision of I-D submission tool requirements - before 12:00 EST tomorrow Thursday Some feedback received * Alex: submits current draft by 15:00 EST tomorrow Thursday Done * Allison: Get information from Harald about wg-chair ticket system Part done - info about address changes received, but not about wg-chair ticket system in particular. * Henrik : does a one-page writeup of how the ticket system works for a wg-chair currently. Writeup at http://tools.ietf.org/team/wiki/SecretariatServices * Henrik: After the tools-discuss list announcement has gone out, solicit input on how a ticket system interface for the WG chairs should look Not done, to be done this week * All: Propose an interface for wg-chair interaction with ticket system - email address - web page - ticket handling Postponed to after information from the chairs is available * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content Some received from Alex - requested from the rest :-) * Henrik: Send announcement of tools-discuss mailing list once the draft is available in the archives Done * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions - * Henrik: continue the inventory on the web site. Finished by next Tuesday. All categories filled in, but I'm not sure all tools have been captured. Will continue to add to it as new information comes in, and will go to auto-generation of the tools pages based on XML info. * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing list's copies of the meeting minutes. - 4. Next steps Nope 5. Any other business. Feedback from people on the -00 ID submission tool draft: there is one item in the draft which is a clear change of routines; this is the proposal to move to only doing pre approval of -00 drafts. Considering there are a number of protests to this, and no consensus for the change, Henrik doesn't believe we can require this change. Alex is not quite convinced, though. 6. Action items, summary * Alex: Deadline for comments on the -00 draft is Friday, aim at getting a new draft out beginning of next week. * Henrik: Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses from the secretariat * Henrik: Solicit information from chairs list regarding wg-chairs tickets handling via web pages. * Bill: Send a little summary of his experiences so far to the list * Henrik: Solicit input on how a ticket system interface for the WG chairs should look, from the WG chairs list * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing list's copies of the meeting minutes. 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 22 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 00:03:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22409; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7nZk-00052L-FF; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:08:52 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7nMS-0005J2-1Z; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:55:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7nIO-0004AS-Hb for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:50:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21693 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7nNa-0004ev-Rd for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:56:22 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8G3okwN028604 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:50:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8G3ok7B028603; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:50:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:50:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040915212210.N26985@measurement-factory.com> References: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 -- quoting from Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Henrik: The alternative of only confirming the validity of the email > address the first time someone sends in a ticket will get rid of the > spam, but not the false tickets generated by CC:ing the ticket > system. To know whether it would be a win to do this, we need to > get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false > addresses. Is our assumption that the system should not prevent rogue submissions? That is, if I use some AD From address (which is certainly already marked as "approved"), the violation will be detected by manual means. > * Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail > causing false addresses When requesting this info, please ask for time-based estimates. While there are probably a lot more spam tickets that than wrong CCs tickets, it probably takes much more time to detect wrong CC than a spam. Question: If my request is classified as spam or wrong CC, will I be notified or does the request disappear without any trace? On a related note, why not introduce something like a required keyword/tag on the first line of the e-mail text (probably instead of one-time address verification). This will get rid of virtually all spam and wrong CCs. For example: From: IETFer To: official Secretariat alias Subject: informal subject here IETF_action_item: some informal optional summary here more informal text describing the action more informal text describing the action more informal text describing the action Any e-mail without the "IETF_action_item:" tag in the first non-empty line will be bounced back, with instructions on how to get through. Spammers will not use the tag. CCs will have the tag "> quoted" or removed during natural e-mail editing process (that's why I would place the tag in the body of the e-mail rather than in the Subject). It seems like this trivial formalism will solve more problems than most others while being easy to learn, off-line-able, and not heavy on IETFers or the Secretariat. Comments? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 00:03:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22462; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7nZp-00052n-HU; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:08:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7nMS-0005J7-7G; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:55:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7nL0-0004dl-50 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:53:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21776 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7nQF-0004gr-GG for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:59:03 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8G3rawN028831; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:53:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8G3ratt028830; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:53:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:53:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat In-Reply-To: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040915212210.N26985@measurement-factory.com> References: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > there is one item in the draft which is a clear change of routines; > this is the proposal to move to only doing pre approval of -00 > drafts. Considering there are a number of protests to this, and no > consensus for the change, Henrik doesn't believe we can require this > change. Alex is not quite convinced, though. To be more precise, I would suggest to postpone the decision until we get more comments instead of treating lack of consensus as consensus to prohibit changes. Let's hear from more folks. Please also note that the change does not seem to violate any current IETF rules, only some informal customs/interfaces. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 01:34:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA27383; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7p01-0006R5-1y; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:40:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7opq-0007c4-4E; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:29:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7ogL-00069d-IF for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:19:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26567 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7ola-0006C8-GU for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:25:12 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:19:33 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8G5JCbA001317; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8G5JCTk009645; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.179.41]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I4400DXZC4053@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:19:10 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat In-reply-to: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" , tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I4400DY0C4053@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSbS+A672vEVE5/QX+v0HjtreDX6AAX+9jA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm sorry I missed the call this morning. I had a conflict that came up. For the W3C software to 'get people's consent to publish mailing lists submissions', I've asked about the technical details, but http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/ describes the system; they call it the 'Archive approval system'. It looks like it was written by Gerard Oskoboiny http://www.w3.org/People/Gerald/ who has written some related software http://impressive.net/people/gerald/software/ for mailing list / news archive software. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 07:32:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA03220; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7ua8-0005jy-Me; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:37:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7uPC-0001D9-SJ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:26:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7uM9-0000fj-9I for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:23:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA02446 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7uRS-0005Wn-KJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:28:47 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id AF0AB3801B; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1FE38018; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713283801A; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1C7uLc-0003Eh-00; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:22:44 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:22:43 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Contacting the Secretariat Message-Id: <20040916132243.38412d54@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040915212210.N26985@measurement-factory.com> References: <41487A2D.10600@levkowetz.com> <20040915212210.N26985@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 15 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > -- quoting from Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat > > On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > Henrik: The alternative of only confirming the validity of the email > > address the first time someone sends in a ticket will get rid of the > > spam, but not the false tickets generated by CC:ing the ticket > > system. To know whether it would be a win to do this, we need to > > get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false > > addresses. > > Is our assumption that the system should not prevent rogue > submissions? That is, if I use some AD From address (which is > certainly already marked as "approved"), the violation will be > detected by manual means. I think this assumption is correct. > > * Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail > > causing false addresses > > When requesting this info, please ask for time-based estimates. While > there are probably a lot more spam tickets that than wrong CCs > tickets, it probably takes much more time to detect wrong CC than a > spam. Ok. Not as easily quantifiable, but I'll ask. > Question: If my request is classified as spam or wrong CC, will I be > notified or does the request disappear without any trace? I'll include this, too (I assume no notification will go out in most cases) > On a related note, why not introduce something like a required > keyword/tag on the first line of the e-mail text (probably instead of > one-time address verification). This will get rid of virtually all > spam and wrong CCs. For example: > > From: IETFer > To: official Secretariat alias > Subject: informal subject here > > IETF_action_item: some informal optional summary here > > more informal text describing the action > more informal text describing the action > more informal text describing the action > > Any e-mail without the "IETF_action_item:" tag in the first non-empty > line will be bounced back, with instructions on how to get through. > Spammers will not use the tag. CCs will have the tag "> quoted" or > removed during natural e-mail editing process (that's why I would > place the tag in the body of the e-mail rather than in the Subject). Yes, clearly. > It seems like this trivial formalism will solve more problems than > most others while being easy to learn, off-line-able, and not heavy on > IETFers or the Secretariat. I like it! :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 09:15:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10244; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7wCA-0008Ks-Dm; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:21:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7w5P-0006ej-Q9; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:14:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7w1j-0005ie-1V for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:10:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09767 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7w72-0008B4-EE for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:15:49 -0400 Received: by av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 193F838653; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:09:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B3038650; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:09:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3B138018; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:09:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C7w1B-0008W4-NX; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:09:45 +0200 Message-ID: <41499098.1020605@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:09:44 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 15 Sep 2004 Telechat References: <0I4400DY0C4053@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I4400DY0C4053@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Masinter wrote: > I'm sorry I missed the call this morning. I had a conflict > that came up. Sure, these things happen. > For the W3C software to 'get people's consent to > publish mailing lists submissions', I've asked about > the technical details, but Ok. Would be especially interesting if he'd release the source... > http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/ describes the system; they > call it the 'Archive approval system'. > > It looks like it was written by Gerard Oskoboiny > http://www.w3.org/People/Gerald/ who has written some > related software > http://impressive.net/people/gerald/software/ for > mailing list / news archive software. Good pointers :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 11:30:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19878; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7yJ6-00032f-F0; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:36:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7yCB-0006lk-FN; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:29:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C7y6h-0005mO-VS for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:23:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19421 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C7yBy-0002qm-O7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:29:07 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.7]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:23:28 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-7.sea.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8GFNSNf016179 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GFNSTk014663 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.6]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I4500BIV433CU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:23:27 -0700 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I4500BIW433CU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSbt+LSCaVA4eLdR7OeSZxLfgbI/wASPf4g X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] Tool suggestion: more easily searchable archive of IETF decisions X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Harald: >> (noted - I think we should make our archive of decisions a lot more easily >> searchable than the archives for the ietf-announce list currently are. >> Different topic.) Larry: > => Tools list > > How searchable? Why? Who needs to search for what? > Harald: to figure out, for instance, when the protocol announcement for draft-mumble-some-protocol went out, who was on the IESG at the time, what the resulting RFC number was, and what Jeff said when he voted "abstain" on the document.... _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 14:50:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04466; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C81QD-0007vj-Gm; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:55:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C81Cv-0007DS-Iu; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:42:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C80ob-0005mZ-I2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01252 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob4.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.214] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C80ty-0007EF-8J for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:22:38 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob4.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:17:01 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8GIGkbA027963 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GIGkkq010495 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-130-169.corp.adobe.com [153.32.130.169]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I4500IEZC3XRD@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:16:45 -0700 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I4500IF0C3XRD@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Organization: Adobe Systems MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcScESc+IPkJ9UgkQiesbbOZFFQQrQACCX0g X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400 Subject: [Tools-team] FW: W3C tools (resend to right address) X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Oskoboiny [mailto:gerald@w3.org] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:18 AM To: Larry Masinter Cc: 'Martin Duerst'; w3t-archive@w3.org Subject: Re: W3C tools (resend to right address) * Larry Masinter [2004-09-15 22:32-0700] > The IETF Tools Team was wondering about the mechanism that > W3C uses to ask for permission to archive email. We will > suggest (in our requirements for IETF tools) that the IETF > institute a similar system. > > http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/ is very helpful. Some related pointers: admin info: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/admin todo list: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/todo source code: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/caa/ These docs are public, but not linked from the overview page because there are a few minor security issues I'd like to fix first. There are more generic challenge/response systems out there, which may or may not be a better starting point for a similar system at the IETF. A couple that come to mind: TMDA: http://tmda.net/ ASK: http://www.paganini.net/ask/ > Did you keep a permanent database? As a file? In some SQL > database? What other information do you keep about email > addresses? We keep permanent info on who has given approval, yes. At first I stored that info in a berkeley DB file, but due to a few issues that came up recently modified it to use text files in a filesystem within a certain directory structure. (issues were: DB file grew too fast with 10k incoming spams/day, and too many processes contending for a lock on the DB file.) I considered using SQL instead, but wanted to keep it as low tech as possible, and wanted it to keep working even if our DB was offline. SQL would have had other advantages though. We may keep other info about email addresses in various places, but nothing specific comes to mind. One thing I think we find very useful is smartlist's concept of separating "accept lists" from dist lists, which we have extended to create "master accept lists" to allow known parties to post to any of our lists whether they are subscribed or not. A bit more info: http://www.w3.org/2002/11/spam-filtering#accept -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://www.w3.org/People/Gerald/ World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) http://www.w3.org/ tel:+1-613-261-6630 mailto:gerald@w3.org _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 16 15:37:31 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09026; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C829r-0000nM-9P; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:43:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C81rx-0003C5-P4; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:24:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C81mT-0001LK-Pe for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:18:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07773 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C81rq-0000JM-CC for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:24:31 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.7]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:18:52 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) by smtp-relay-7.sea.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8GJIqNf028956; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8GJIpkq014615; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-130-169.corp.adobe.com [153.32.130.169]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I4500L8KEZFEX@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:18:51 -0700 From: Larry Masinter In-reply-to: <20040916171808.GI3453@w3.org> To: "'Gerald Oskoboiny'" Message-id: <0I4500L8LEZFEX@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcScESc+IPkJ9UgkQiesbbOZFFQQrQAEKbKA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: "'Martin Duerst'" , w3t-archive@w3.org, tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] RE: W3C tools (resend to right address) X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks! This is great information, and I think it will be very helpful when we put together the recommendations for improvements to IETF tools. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 18:29:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15504; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8RJe-00079n-GY; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:34:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8RCh-0004U8-EU; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:27:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8R9m-0003nT-HR for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:24:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15126 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8RFN-000716-Tg for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:30:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E9E61BDE for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:24:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30481-07 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD3561B95 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:24:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:23:59 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] For your interest: Liaison statement handling X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out draft-iab-liaison-mgt and draft-baker-liaison-statements. Especially the latter is pretty specific in its envisioning of a tool (which has been mostly implemented, in fact....) Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 19:09:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17375; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8Rwo-0007yg-2H; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:15:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8Rnj-0002yM-BE; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:05:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8Rme-0002nb-Hz for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:04:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17118 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8RsG-0007sI-4u for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:10:41 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:04:28 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8HN4CbA003103 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsj-dev (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8HN4CTk026630 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-130-169.corp.adobe.com [153.32.130.169]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I47008B5K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:04:10 -0700 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I47008B6K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSdCqQsH3BRs4uQTRa1xLszUTboXA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools team with administrative restructuring of IETF. We could just invite him to join the regular teleconference one week, or schedule a special session. What do you think about this idea? Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 19:34:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18209; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8SKI-0008MH-IW; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:40:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8S4m-0005q3-KG; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:23:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8Rv4-00048n-9g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:13:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17464 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8S0g-00082M-4H for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:19:23 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 45C7737E8F; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E9B37E6F; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210A037E44; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8RuW-00069s-99; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:00 +0200 Message-ID: <414B6F7C.6080805@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:00 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? References: <0I47008B6K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I47008B6K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Carl Malamud , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Masinter wrote: > I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with > Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools > team with administrative restructuring of IETF. > We could just invite him to join the regular > teleconference one week, or schedule a special > session. I think that sounds like a good plan, so I'm sending this reply to Carl too. Carl, how does this sound to you? Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 20:06:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19608; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8SpP-0000Wq-8C; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:12:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8ShQ-0005OW-Qo; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:03:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8Sft-00055a-RH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:01:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19345 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8Skt-0000Qr-5W for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:07:32 -0400 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685C81974C9 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id i8HNxjq25895; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200409172359.i8HNxjq25895@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:59:43 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Subject: [Tools-team] Thoughts on Plone X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa I'm still in the honeymoon, perhaps, but I'm still liking using plone as a CMS for rtg.ietf.org . I just gave my first WG chair access to his own directory today, and he easily added the ietf60 proceedings at http://rtg.ietf.org/wg/bfd/ . I've had to do some customizations, and I've found them very easy. For example, I wrote a 10-line python script that handles legacy URLs from phpnuke. phpnuke used URLs such as http://rtg.ietf.org/modules.php?module=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7 . The python script is installed as modules.php/index_html, and sends a redirect based on the incoming URL and some metadata stored as "link" content in the CMS - so it uses the normal CMS management interface to handle where these legacy links redirect to. I find the ftp interface fairly reasonable. If you upload a text file, then download it again, it comes back with a header prepended, which allows setting of much of the metadata. You modify the header and then re-upload. The WEBDAV interface is much the same; the advantage is that MacOS has a r/w WEBDAV filesystem implementation, so you can simply mount the web site and cd around and vi the content. I haven't yet explored the permissions issue that Alex raised: can I give the WG chairs permission to put other users into the "can-manage-this-wg's-content" group? I hope to implement something like Henrik's mip4 draft status tracker in the Zope/Plone style (which seperates data collection from presentation much more than pyht), using the Zope object database (ZODB) to manage the document status. The ZODB makes itself available via the web and ftp/DAV interfaces, so this gives users flexibility in how they want to manage content. Each chair can use the tool in a different way. Anyway, I'll try to keep the group updated on my progress. I should probably try to learn some python other than by osmosis (although that's worked well enough so far). Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 20:39:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA22103; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8TLd-0001FV-Me; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:45:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8TAH-0002iC-Lu; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:33:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8Sfz-00055e-S2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:02:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19368 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bulk.resource.org ([192.101.98.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8Sl4-0000R3-3V for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:07:43 -0400 Received: from bulk.resource.org (localhost.resource.org [127.0.0.1]) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i8HNxt6Y016535; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from carl@localhost) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id i8HNxtAj016534; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:59:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Malamud Message-Id: <200409172359.i8HNxtAj016534@bulk.resource.org> Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-Reply-To: <414B6F7C.6080805@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Memory Palace Press X-Winch: Warn 9.5i X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL94 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:33:19 -0400 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds great! Let me know when and where. Regards, Carl [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Larry Masinter wrote: > > I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with > > Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools > > team with administrative restructuring of IETF. > > We could just invite him to join the regular > > teleconference one week, or schedule a special > > session. > > I think that sounds like a good plan, so I'm sending > this reply to Carl too. > > Carl, how does this sound to you? > > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 20:44:27 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA22374; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8TQ2-0001KT-BA; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:50:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8TFC-0003af-CO; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:38:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8TBX-0002rP-Uw for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:34:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21797 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8TGc-00019F-BN for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:40:19 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A6A6937E8D; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9704237E50; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A5F37E45; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8T9R-0007oN-WD; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:30 +0200 Message-ID: <414B821E.3030404@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:30 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Thoughts on Plone References: <200409172359.i8HNxjq25895@windsor.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200409172359.i8HNxjq25895@windsor.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Fenner wrote: > I'm still in the honeymoon, perhaps, but I'm still liking using > plone as a CMS for rtg.ietf.org . I just gave my first WG chair > access to his own directory today, and he easily added the ietf60 > proceedings at http://rtg.ietf.org/wg/bfd/ . Nice :-) > I've had to do some customizations, and I've found them very easy. > For example, I wrote a 10-line python script that handles legacy > URLs from phpnuke. phpnuke used URLs such as > http://rtg.ietf.org/modules.php?module=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7 . > The python script is installed as modules.php/index_html, and > sends a redirect based on the incoming URL and some metadata > stored as "link" content in the CMS - so it uses the normal > CMS management interface to handle where these legacy links redirect > to. > > I find the ftp interface fairly reasonable. If you upload a text > file, then download it again, it comes back with a header prepended, > which allows setting of much of the metadata. You modify the header > and then re-upload. The WEBDAV interface is much the same; the > advantage is that MacOS has a r/w WEBDAV filesystem implementation, > so you can simply mount the web site and cd around and vi the > content. !! Both nice and something I didn't know about :-) > I haven't yet explored the permissions issue that Alex raised: > can I give the WG chairs permission to put other users into the > "can-manage-this-wg's-content" group? > > I hope to implement something like Henrik's mip4 draft status > tracker in the Zope/Plone style (which seperates data collection > from presentation much more than pyht), using the Zope object > database (ZODB) to manage the document status. The ZODB makes > itself available via the web and ftp/DAV interfaces, so this > gives users flexibility in how they want to manage content. > Each chair can use the tool in a different way. Interesting. I'd really enjoy providing something like that for the complete community... pyth is really most appropriate for small applications where the same person is handling design and programming. And today you should rather use mod_python 3.x with apache 2.x , which gives you the possibility of working in the same style, but standardised on an apache module rather than a freestanding interpreter. Nice to be able to use plone's access management to provide controlled access to the chairs, for managing draft info. > Anyway, I'll try to keep the group updated on my progress. > I should probably try to learn some python other than by > osmosis (although that's worked well enough so far). I'd strongly recommending simply following the Python tutorial included in the distribution and also available on http://www.python.org/ for a start. It is better written and more concise than most books I've come across - one of the better language intros I know of, come to think of it. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 17 20:57:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23011; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8Td1-0001c0-7p; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:03:28 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8TQY-0005g5-TN; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:50:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C8TLl-0004eZ-29 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:45:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA22430 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C8TQp-0001LQ-N3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:50:53 -0400 Received: by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 38C1E38201; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C8E3815A; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3A438005; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C8TJf-000810-VX; Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:04 +0200 Message-ID: <414B8498.70306@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:04 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Malamud Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? References: <200409172359.i8HNxtAj016534@bulk.resource.org> In-Reply-To: <200409172359.i8HNxtAj016534@bulk.resource.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carl Malamud wrote: > Sounds great! Let me know when and where. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 22 Sep, 16:00 GMT Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. Welcome! Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 19 13:09:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00197; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C95Hm-0008Gl-0M; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:15:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C95BL-0007Vo-KX; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:08:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C95A6-0007KP-GL for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:07:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00043 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C95G5-0008ED-Pr for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:13:54 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8JH7ZwN029767; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:07:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8JH7Z5C029766; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:07:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:07:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Larry Masinter , Carl Malamud Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-Reply-To: <0I47008B6K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <20040919110027.I77545@measurement-factory.com> References: <0I47008B6K30AK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with > Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools > team with administrative restructuring of IETF. > We could just invite him to join the regular > teleconference one week, or schedule a special > session. > > What do you think about this idea? I think it is a good idea, but I would like us to have a Carl-specific agenda developed before the meeting though. Inviting Carl without a well thought-through Carl-specific agenda sounds like a waste of Carl's valuable time. What kind of coordination between tools and administrative restructuring do we think is needed? Larry, did you have some specific issues in mind? Can you help define the agenda? What can Carl help us with? How can we help Carl? Thanks, Alex. P.S. I just saw that Henrik had invited Carl to the next telechat. We can put Carl-specific items first on the agenda. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 19 13:53:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03439; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C95yJ-0000d5-Q1; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:59:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C95qR-00046q-Bi; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:51:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C95q9-0003zx-1a for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:51:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03384 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bulk.resource.org ([192.101.98.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C95w8-0000ad-NZ for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:57:21 -0400 Received: from bulk.resource.org (localhost.resource.org [127.0.0.1]) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i8JHo46Y016068; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from carl@localhost) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id i8JHo42k016067; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Malamud Message-Id: <200409191750.i8JHo42k016067@bulk.resource.org> Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-Reply-To: <20040919110027.I77545@measurement-factory.com> To: Alex Rousskov Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Memory Palace Press X-Winch: Warn 9.5i X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL94 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm ... I think step 1 is maybe you can tell me what you folks are up to and are trying to do. I've read the tools-discuss list, and looked at the draft if that helps, but it would be nice to hear from all of you where you think this is heading. Don't you think that makes sense as a first step? I'm happy to just listen in on the call, or you can do it more formally and put me on an agenda and then have me sign off when you move on to other items. Either way is fine. Regards, Carl > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: > > > I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with > > Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools > > team with administrative restructuring of IETF. > > We could just invite him to join the regular > > teleconference one week, or schedule a special > > session. > > > > What do you think about this idea? > > I think it is a good idea, but I would like us to have a Carl-specific > agenda developed before the meeting though. Inviting Carl without a > well thought-through Carl-specific agenda sounds like a waste of > Carl's valuable time. > > What kind of coordination between tools and administrative > restructuring do we think is needed? Larry, did you have some specific > issues in mind? Can you help define the agenda? What can Carl help us > with? How can we help Carl? > > Thanks, > > Alex. > > P.S. I just saw that Henrik had invited Carl to the next telechat. > We can put Carl-specific items first on the agenda. > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 19 14:03:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03942; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9682-0000op-Hu; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:09:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C961o-0005dh-LB; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:03:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C960p-0005Uq-Py for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:02:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03918 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C966o-0000nD-KX for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:08:24 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8JI28wN033061; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:02:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8JI276x033060; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:02:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:02:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Carl Malamud Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-Reply-To: <200409191750.i8JHo42k016067@bulk.resource.org> Message-ID: <20040919115807.T77545@measurement-factory.com> References: <200409191750.i8JHo42k016067@bulk.resource.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Carl, An informal exchange of plans/ideas is just fine, of course, provided you are willing to join us for more telechats later, when we know more about each other efforts and have specific topics to discuss. I was assuming you are too busy to do it more than once in the foreseeable future :-). Thanks, Alex. On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Carl Malamud wrote: > Hmmm ... I think step 1 is maybe you can tell me what you > folks are up to and are trying to do. I've read the tools-discuss > list, and looked at the draft if that helps, but it would be > nice to hear from all of you where you think this is heading. > > Don't you think that makes sense as a first step? I'm happy > to just listen in on the call, or you can do it more formally > and put me on an agenda and then have me sign off when you > move on to other items. Either way is fine. > > Regards, > > Carl > >> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Larry Masinter wrote: >> >>> I suggest we try to schedule a joint meeting with >>> Carl Malamud to coordinate the work of the tools >>> team with administrative restructuring of IETF. >>> We could just invite him to join the regular >>> teleconference one week, or schedule a special >>> session. >>> >>> What do you think about this idea? >> >> I think it is a good idea, but I would like us to have a Carl-specific >> agenda developed before the meeting though. Inviting Carl without a >> well thought-through Carl-specific agenda sounds like a waste of >> Carl's valuable time. >> >> What kind of coordination between tools and administrative >> restructuring do we think is needed? Larry, did you have some specific >> issues in mind? Can you help define the agenda? What can Carl help us >> with? How can we help Carl? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alex. >> >> P.S. I just saw that Henrik had invited Carl to the next telechat. >> We can put Carl-specific items first on the agenda. >> > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 19 14:38:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05512; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C96fo-0001MG-M9; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:44:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C96Z7-0000uV-Da; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:37:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C96Yb-0000o7-K7 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:37:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05491 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bulk.resource.org ([192.101.98.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C96ea-0001LJ-Pq for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:43:18 -0400 Received: from bulk.resource.org (localhost.resource.org [127.0.0.1]) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i8JIaV6Y020641; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from carl@localhost) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id i8JIaVtC020640; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Malamud Message-Id: <200409191836.i8JIaVtC020640@bulk.resource.org> Subject: Re: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-Reply-To: <20040919115807.T77545@measurement-factory.com> To: Alex Rousskov Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Memory Palace Press X-Winch: Warn 9.5i X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL94 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Carl, > > An informal exchange of plans/ideas is just fine, of course, > provided you are willing to join us for more telechats later, when we > know more about each other efforts and have specific topics to > discuss. I was assuming you are too busy to do it more than once in > the foreseeable future :-). Telechats are easy ... happy to participate as needed! Regards, Carl _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 19 23:37:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06140; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9F5S-0002LP-Rt; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:43:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9EyV-0000uF-W5; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:36:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9Evt-0000eD-RI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:33:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA05894 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9F1n-0002GV-FE for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:39:58 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([12.158.35.250]) with SMTP; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:33:24 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8K3WvbA010984; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8K3Wqkq009833; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.234]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I4B00859LUSBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:32:53 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] meet with Carl Malamud? In-reply-to: <200409191836.i8JIaVtC020640@bulk.resource.org> To: "'Carl Malamud'" , "'Alex Rousskov'" Message-id: <0I4B0085ALUSBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSed5a15WCwagY7T/ycoOoPJoXlPQASnG2w X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Personally, I like to think of the "tools" work as just a part of the overall restructuring of IETF administration. >From this point of view, I'd like to hear from Carl about his thoughts on what our priorities should be, and how we can coordinate the work of the tools team with the administrative restructuring. I believe that, often, workflow automation technology is used as the instrument of organizational change; further, that we should evaluate 'tools' by how they impact the efficiency of the processes and organizations they impact. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 08:42:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27097; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Nay-00055S-Pf; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:48:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9NU9-00071A-5L; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:41:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9NSt-0006nX-0A for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:40:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26903 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9NZ0-000534-Nj for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:46:41 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 3FF2D37EE3; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A8C37E47 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229C137E47 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9NSH-0007L5-VN for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:39:42 +0200 Message-ID: <414ECF8F.5090208@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:39:43 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] WebDAV access to tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've added WebDAV access to tools.ietf.org for the team members, using the same password as for the team wiki. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 09:07:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00060; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Nzp-0005ZD-CP; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:14:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9NkQ-0000kS-NH; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:58:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9NcN-00087c-8t for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:50:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27483 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9NiW-0005Bg-8e for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:56:29 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6343A37E50; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539E937E46; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FAF38034; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9Nbp-0007TP-OS; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:33 +0200 Message-ID: <414ED1DF.8060209@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:49:35 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, During the latest tools-team conference we discussed some possible suggestions for ways to reduce the number of bad tickets created in the ticket system by spam and people cc:ing the ticket system address by mistake. One of the possible alternatives was something which I understand has been mentioned before - to use a challenge-response mechanism to validate the submitter email address, as a one-time action for each submitter. However, how meaningful this would be is strongly dependent on the ratio between bad tickets created by incoming spam, and bad tickets created by people inadvertently cc:ing the ticket address when discussing the subject of a ticket. Do you have data on this ratio? If so, would it be possible to share those with us? Best regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 11:26:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11911; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9QA2-0008Kk-Vs; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:33:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9Q1a-0000lr-A8; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:24:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9Py5-0007oW-WC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:20:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11298 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net ([204.127.202.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Q4G-0008AU-C0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:27:05 -0400 Received: from d1gsdg11.foretec.com (h000c41701e67.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.91.122.107]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200409201520080120077lnne>; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:20:09 +0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:15:20 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets In-Reply-To: <414ED1DF.8060209@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: ietf-contact@techsquare.com, ietf-admin@techsquare.com, IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Hi Henrik: Although we do not maintain statistics, it is safe to say that the majority of messages sent to the RT queues are spam in the true sense of the word. In the past three to four weeks, we have had about three instances of multiple spurious tickets generated by people copying a queue address in a discussion. In each case the number of tickets was probably less than 10. However, we received hundreds of spam messages during the same period. I hope that this helps... Regards, Barbara P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If the TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on Secretariat queues, then it would be best to include them in the discussion right from the beginning. P.P.S. I personally do not recall any discussion of using a challenge-response mechanism to reduce spam on the ticket system queues. Perhaps someone suggested it on the spam discussion list...a technical discussion list to which I don't subscribe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 02:49 PM 9/20/2004 +0200, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >Hi Barbara, > > During the latest tools-team conference we discussed some >possible suggestions for ways to reduce the number of bad tickets created >in the ticket system by spam and people cc:ing the ticket >system address by mistake. > >One of the possible alternatives was something which I understand >has been mentioned before - to use a challenge-response mechanism >to validate the submitter email address, as a one-time action for >each submitter. > >However, how meaningful this would be is strongly dependent on the >ratio between bad tickets created by incoming spam, and bad tickets >created by people inadvertently cc:ing the ticket address when >discussing the subject of a ticket. Do you have data on this ratio? If >so, would it be possible to share those with us? > > > Best regards, > > Henrik > >_______________________________________________ >Tools-team mailing list >Tools-team@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 12:07:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15804; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Qnh-0000tL-Ko; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:14:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9QUW-0007kE-N9; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:54:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9QQS-0006Io-Pn for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:50:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14439 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9QWb-0000WR-7T for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:56:24 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8KFnrwN079141 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:49:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8KFnrkA079140; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:49:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:49:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: IETF TOOLS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> Message-ID: <20040920093438.O76675@measurement-factory.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Subject: [Tools-team] mitigating spam on Secretariat queues X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If > the TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on > Secretariat queues, then it would be best to include them in the > discussion right from the beginning. It may also be a good idea to ask IESG (or, at least, Harald and Allison) to give us a more coherent signal on whether we should be even discussing this. During telechat, Allison wanted us to look into this. When I posted initial ideas to the mailing list, Harald said that we should not touch this Secretariat project/interface. Are we proceeding and ignoring Harald? Are we proceeding with a solution that Harald did not explicitly oppose? Henrik, I know that you are going by existing action items. I am just confused whether (after Harald's e-mail) we are allowed to recommend something here, what is our scope, how much freedom we have in our recommendations, and what solutions (if any) we already agreed on. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 12:16:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16499; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9QwK-00017q-UL; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:22:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9QiK-0002XR-Jh; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:08:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9QZn-0000Hi-HQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:59:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15177 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Qfz-0000ix-25 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:06:03 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B74F93800B; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33F837F07; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F3037E4B; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9QZG-0001nG-ON; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:06 +0200 Message-ID: <414EFE4B.6060107@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ietf-contact@techsquare.com, ietf-admin@techsquare.com, IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Henrik: > > Although we do not maintain statistics, it is safe to say that the > majority of messages sent to the RT queues are spam in the true sense of > the word. In the past three to four weeks, we have had about three > instances of multiple spurious tickets generated by people copying a > queue address in a discussion. In each case the number of tickets was > probably less than 10. However, we received hundreds of spam messages > during the same period. > > I hope that this helps... Yes, that is very clear, thanks :-) To me it indicates that putting a challenge response system such as e.g. TMDA (http://tmda.net/) in front of the ticket system would give good benefits. Any ticket submitter not already known by the system would get an email asking for confirmation of the submission, on the first submission only, and after responding to that - on subsequent submissions - the emails would go straight through. The alternative above would not work particularly well if a major number of undesired tickets were from cc: mails from people also known by the challenge response system. In that case, a proposal from Alex of requiring a special tag line as the first line of the email would be more effective. That solution would however be dependent on people remembering to put in the tag line, and getting it correct. ( Alex' mail on the subject: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00171.html ) Regards, Henrik > > Regards, > > Barbara > > P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If the > TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on Secretariat > queues, then it would be best to include them in the discussion right > from the beginning. > > P.P.S. I personally do not recall any discussion of using a > challenge-response mechanism to reduce spam on the ticket system > queues. Perhaps someone suggested it on the spam discussion list...a > technical discussion list to which I don't subscribe. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > At 02:49 PM 9/20/2004 +0200, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Hi Barbara, >> >> During the latest tools-team conference we discussed some >> possible suggestions for ways to reduce the number of bad tickets >> created in the ticket system by spam and people cc:ing the ticket >> system address by mistake. >> >> One of the possible alternatives was something which I understand >> has been mentioned before - to use a challenge-response mechanism >> to validate the submitter email address, as a one-time action for >> each submitter. >> >> However, how meaningful this would be is strongly dependent on the >> ratio between bad tickets created by incoming spam, and bad tickets >> created by people inadvertently cc:ing the ticket address when >> discussing the subject of a ticket. Do you have data on this ratio? >> If so, would it be possible to share those with us? >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik >> _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 13:43:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23925; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9SIh-00036b-0y; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:50:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9S8P-00009S-42; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:39:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9Ry0-0006rs-69 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:28:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23060 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9S49-0002qA-Gk for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:35:09 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 37FA03801F; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2902137FB4; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1473E37E47; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9RxQ-0004wU-Cj; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:08 +0200 Message-ID: <414F132A.4070908@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:10 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Checking of boilerplate for Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, With this announcement out, I wonder if you would be interested in trying out the idnits tool I'm maintaining, in order to check the boilerplate conformance - http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/ Currently the idnits tool checks most of the requirements of the ID-checklist; you could use it as it is, but you would get comments not only about boilerplate conformance, but also also regarding other nits which are not relevant for regular I-D submissions. However, I already have as the next item on the to-do list for this tool to add a mode where it is only reporting errors for missing boilerplate, not for all the nits in ID-checklist.html; I could try to do this soon, if it would be of interest to you. Let me know what you think, Henrik Harald Alvestrand wrote: > Hello, > > A bit before the August IETF, we announced that it was time to use the new > boilerplate from RFC 3667 in internet-drafts, and instructed the secretariat to > heck that boilerplate. > Due to some confusion, and the impending meeting, we asked them to stop checking > after a while. > > But we have to move on.... it is now almost a year since RFC 3667 was > published, and the legal issues that the document was set to address ARE > important to the continued operation of the IETF. > > I have therefore instructed the secretariat to check some items of the > boilerplate again, starting from September 28, 2004. > > On the particular issue of the boilerplate that got changed between RFC 3667 > and the "fixed" draft-ietf-ipr-subm-rights-fix, I have asked them to check that > statement is present, and that it contains words that indicate that it was > intended to be a conformant boilerplate - we will make those instructions > tighter once draft-ietf-ipr-subm-rights-fix is published, but not now. > > Instructions for making conformant drafts can be found at the usual URL: > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt > > Pay particular attention to the section "Notices required in internet-drafts". > > (Note: Any recent version of xml2rfc should be compatible with these rules, > provided you use the "rfc ipr=full3667" directive) > > If the secretariat finds a violation of the rules, the secretariat is to return > the wording of the violated rule to the submitter; this should eliminate > ambiguity about WHAT is wrong with a submission. > > With the hope of being able to go forward without worrying, > > Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 15:53:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06278; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9UKU-0005f0-LS; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:00:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9U9V-0008W2-Mb; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:48:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9TzL-0004RV-SR for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:38:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04942 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9U5Y-0005Mp-2g for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:44:41 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8FE4B38054; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B7237EEE; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14EB737E50; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9Tyl-00078o-Dt; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:39 +0200 Message-ID: <414F3183.9050408@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:39 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] mitigating spam on Secretariat queues References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> <20040920093438.O76675@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040920093438.O76675@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Barbara B. Fuller" , IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > >> P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If the >> TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on Secretariat >> queues, then it would be best to include them in the discussion right >> from the beginning. > > > It may also be a good idea to ask IESG (or, at least, Harald and > Allison) to give us a more coherent signal on whether we should be even > discussing this. During telechat, Allison wanted us to look into this. > When I posted initial ideas to the mailing list, Harald said that we > should not touch this Secretariat project/interface. > > Are we proceeding and ignoring Harald? Are we proceeding with a solution > that Harald did not explicitly oppose? > > Henrik, I know that you are going by existing action items. I am just > confused whether (after Harald's e-mail) we are allowed to recommend > something here, what is our scope, how much freedom we have in our > recommendations, and what solutions (if any) we already agreed on. I understood Harald's message as an indication that the info summary from Barbara regarding changes to email addresses etc. was for information, not for action, and we should keep such distinctions clear. Last conference call we agreed (with Harald on the call) to solicit information regarding the relative proportions of spam-generated bad tickets and cc: generated ones; that's Ok I believe. I may have gone beyond what's been mandated in giving my immediate response on that information - Barbara, Harald, if you feel I've overstepped the boundaries and meddled where I shouldn't, I apologise. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 17:29:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23410; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Vpc-0002Xa-US; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:36:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9VMX-0003KA-3R; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:06:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9UVG-0003UX-AL for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:11:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07979 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9UbR-0006Jc-8n for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:17:40 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC45861BA7; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:10:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06373-10; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:10:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5018D61AD4; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:10:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:10:38 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Henrik Levkowetz , Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] mitigating spam on Secretariat queues Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <414F3183.9050408@levkowetz.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> <20040920093438.O76675@measurement-factory.com> <414F3183.9050408@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Barbara B. Fuller" , IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henrik, --On mandag, september 20, 2004 21:37:39 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > I understood Harald's message as an indication that the info summary > from Barbara regarding changes to email addresses etc. was for > information, > not for action, and we should keep such distinctions clear. > > Last conference call we agreed (with Harald on the call) to solicit > information regarding the relative proportions of spam-generated bad > tickets and cc: generated ones; that's Ok I believe. > > I may have gone beyond what's been mandated in giving my immediate > response on that information - Barbara, Harald, if you feel I've > overstepped the boundaries and meddled where I shouldn't, I apologise. I think information gathering is a Good Thing - within reason; Barbara needs to be able to tell you when you asking questions interferes with the work of the secretariat! - but I don't think that's been a problem so far. The point wrt the list of aliases was that you shouldn't expect that Barbara was waiting for any response from you before acting on it. Go ahead and gather information! Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 20 18:37:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00962; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Wsv-0004Lb-Mi; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:43:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9WXS-0000RQ-GP; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:21:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9UYr-0005Vj-Po for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:14:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08448 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com ([199.190.186.200]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9Uf5-0006Te-Q5; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:21:24 -0400 Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i8KKEuV7028976; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:14:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sb@aquinas.techsquare.com) Received: (from sb@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i8KKEuGG028973; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:14:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sb) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200409202014.i8KKEuGG028973@aquinas.techsquare.com> From: To: henrik@levkowetz.com In-reply-to: <414EFE4B.6060107@levkowetz.com> (message from Henrik Levkowetz on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200) Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> <414EFE4B.6060107@levkowetz.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:21:37 -0400 Cc: bfuller@foretec.com, ietf-contact@techsquare.com, ietf-admin@techsquare.com, tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-admin@techsquare.com List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Hi Henrik and All, I like the TMDA suggestion, it could be coupled with a seeded whitelist of all "known" ietf or iesg members. The tag line approach is interesting but puts the burden on the user from the beginning and is less "standard" and maybe a little more work. We'd have to think a little about the implementation. It would be nice to do TMDA/Tag-Line right at the border and right off the top of my head I am not sure how to implement that. sb. Scott Blomquist for ietf-admin@techsquare.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: ietf-contact@techsquare.com, ietf-admin@techsquare.com, IETF TOOLS Hi Barbara, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Henrik: > > Although we do not maintain statistics, it is safe to say that the > majority of messages sent to the RT queues are spam in the true sense of > the word. In the past three to four weeks, we have had about three > instances of multiple spurious tickets generated by people copying a > queue address in a discussion. In each case the number of tickets was > probably less than 10. However, we received hundreds of spam messages > during the same period. > > I hope that this helps... Yes, that is very clear, thanks :-) To me it indicates that putting a challenge response system such as e.g. TMDA (http://tmda.net/) in front of the ticket system would give good benefits. Any ticket submitter not already known by the system would get an email asking for confirmation of the submission, on the first submission only, and after responding to that - on subsequent submissions - the emails would go straight through. The alternative above would not work particularly well if a major number of undesired tickets were from cc: mails from people also known by the challenge response system. In that case, a proposal from Alex of requiring a special tag line as the first line of the email would be more effective. That solution would however be dependent on people remembering to put in the tag line, and getting it correct. ( Alex' mail on the subject: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00171.html ) Regards, Henrik > > Regards, > > Barbara > > P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If the > TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on Secretariat > queues, then it would be best to include them in the discussion right > from the beginning. > > P.P.S. I personally do not recall any discussion of using a > challenge-response mechanism to reduce spam on the ticket system > queues. Perhaps someone suggested it on the spam discussion list...a > technical discussion list to which I don't subscribe. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > At 02:49 PM 9/20/2004 +0200, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Hi Barbara, >> >> During the latest tools-team conference we discussed some >> possible suggestions for ways to reduce the number of bad tickets >> created in the ticket system by spam and people cc:ing the ticket >> system address by mistake. >> >> One of the possible alternatives was something which I understand >> has been mentioned before - to use a challenge-response mechanism >> to validate the submitter email address, as a one-time action for >> each submitter. >> >> However, how meaningful this would be is strongly dependent on the >> ratio between bad tickets created by incoming spam, and bad tickets >> created by people inadvertently cc:ing the ticket address when >> discussing the subject of a ticket. Do you have data on this ratio? >> If so, would it be possible to share those with us? >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Henrik >> _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 21 08:34:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09215; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9jxI-0001s5-Se; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:41:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9jmM-0007xz-4Z; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:29:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9jjh-0007Be-2s for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:27:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08695 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9jq3-0001ie-SJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:33:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B573661BAF; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00440-10; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E87161AD4; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:15:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: ietf-admin@techsquare.com, henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200409202014.i8KKEuGG028973@aquinas.techsquare.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> <414EFE4B.6060107@levkowetz.com> <200409202014.i8KKEuGG028973@aquinas.techsquare.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bfuller@foretec.com, ietf-contact@techsquare.com, tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott, in the "example config" that Rob Austein sent to Brett many moons ago, there was included an example TMDA setup. The suggestion at the time was to put this in front of the whole IETF mail system, and pre-seed it with all the addresses from all the mailing lists - this would give a "single sign-on" to all the IETF mailing lists, ticket systems and so on. But Brett (and others!) was quite nervous about doing such a radical change to how IETF mail is accepted, so he decided to do all the other things on his list first, and then return to the TMDA issue. A TMDA in front of the ticket system should have far less potential for controversy, I think; not allowing "everyone" to post tickets can't really be painted as a free speech issue. Harald --On 20. september 2004 16:14 -0400 ietf-admin@techsquare.com wrote: > Hi Henrik and All, > > I like the TMDA suggestion, it could be coupled with a seeded > whitelist of all "known" ietf or iesg members. The tag line approach > is interesting but puts the burden on the user from the beginning and > is less "standard" and maybe a little more work. > > We'd have to think a little about the implementation. It would be > nice to do TMDA/Tag-Line right at the border and right off the top of > my head I am not sure how to implement that. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 21 12:47:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00950; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9nuB-00071s-4P; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:54:16 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9niQ-00063B-3S; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:42:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1C9ndz-0004WH-6C for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:37:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29956 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9nkN-0006nX-Ci; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:44:08 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8LGbPwN039146; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:37:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8LGbOAH039145; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:37:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:37:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: ietf-admin@techsquare.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Question about ticket system and spam / cc: created tickets In-Reply-To: <200409202014.i8KKEuGG028973@aquinas.techsquare.com> Message-ID: <20040921102558.A34560@measurement-factory.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920104203.02233dc8@colossus.foretec.com> <414EFE4B.6060107@levkowetz.com> <200409202014.i8KKEuGG028973@aquinas.techsquare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: bfuller@foretec.com, ietf-contact@techsquare.com, tools-team@ietf.org, henrik@levkowetz.com X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 ietf-admin@techsquare.com wrote: > The tag line approach is interesting but puts the burden on the user > from the beginning and is less "standard" and maybe a little more > work. IMO, if TMDA is used for the first request only (i.e., all confirmed requests result in sender being whitelisted), then tagging approach is inferior to TMDA. I assume that is how you are going to use TMDA. However, if your TMDA implementation requires confirmation of _every_ request (for example, to solve the "non-request via CC" problem), then tagging puts no more burden on the user and has certain advantages. TMDA can be enabled for untagged requests in this case. Thanks, Alex. > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0200 > From: Henrik Levkowetz > Cc: ietf-contact@techsquare.com, ietf-admin@techsquare.com, IETF TOOLS > > Hi Barbara, > > Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > > Hi Henrik: > > > > Although we do not maintain statistics, it is safe to say that the > > majority of messages sent to the RT queues are spam in the true sense of > > the word. In the past three to four weeks, we have had about three > > instances of multiple spurious tickets generated by people copying a > > queue address in a discussion. In each case the number of tickets was > > probably less than 10. However, we received hundreds of spam messages > > during the same period. > > > > I hope that this helps... > > Yes, that is very clear, thanks :-) > > To me it indicates that putting a challenge response system such as e.g. > TMDA (http://tmda.net/) in front of the ticket system would give good > benefits. Any ticket submitter not already known by the system would get > an email asking for confirmation of the submission, on the first submission > only, and after responding to that - on subsequent submissions - the emails > would go straight through. > > The alternative above would not work particularly well if a major number > of undesired tickets were from cc: mails from people also known by the > challenge response system. In that case, a proposal from Alex of > requiring a special tag line as the first line of the email would > be more effective. That solution would however be dependent on people > remembering to put in the tag line, and getting it correct. > ( Alex' mail on the subject: > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00171.html ) > > > Regards, > > Henrik > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Barbara > > > > P.S. I am copying our technical support staff on this message. If the > > TOOLS Team wants to propose methods for mitigating spam on Secretariat > > queues, then it would be best to include them in the discussion right > > from the beginning. > > > > P.P.S. I personally do not recall any discussion of using a > > challenge-response mechanism to reduce spam on the ticket system > > queues. Perhaps someone suggested it on the spam discussion list...a > > technical discussion list to which I don't subscribe. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 02:49 PM 9/20/2004 +0200, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > >> Hi Barbara, > >> > >> During the latest tools-team conference we discussed some > >> possible suggestions for ways to reduce the number of bad tickets > >> created in the ticket system by spam and people cc:ing the ticket > >> system address by mistake. > >> > >> One of the possible alternatives was something which I understand > >> has been mentioned before - to use a challenge-response mechanism > >> to validate the submitter email address, as a one-time action for > >> each submitter. > >> > >> However, how meaningful this would be is strongly dependent on the > >> ratio between bad tickets created by incoming spam, and bad tickets > >> created by people inadvertently cc:ing the ticket address when > >> discussing the subject of a ticket. Do you have data on this ratio? > >> If so, would it be possible to share those with us? > >> > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Henrik > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 09:32:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06057; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA7Kt-00077J-20; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:39:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA78V-0002BW-Q0; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:26:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA72v-0000v8-28 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:20:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05125 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA79U-0006sN-MH for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:27:21 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8EF9037E8C; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:20:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB9337E53 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:20:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA2E3801D for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:20:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CA72N-0003Kj-00 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:19:59 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:19:59 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 40161b1d86420e0807d771943d981d25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fe105289edd72640d9f392da880eefa2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below is a copy of the mail I sent out to the wgchairs list, followed by the responses that have come in so far. Here's a summary (which means some simplification and interpretation; read the responses for the full picture: 1) email best : xx 2) web best : 3) both preferred : xxxxx If only one: 1) prefers email : xxxxx 2) prefers web : x ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Henrik Levkowetz To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:37:25 +0200 Sender: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) Hi, Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something different: The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted by WG chairs. Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to iesg-secretary@ietf.org. One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time is whether: 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues in either of these categories 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues in either of these categories 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and supporting both. 4) something different would be optimal (what?) (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) Regards, Henrik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: David Meyer To: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:04:23 -0700 User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Hey Henrik, >> Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission >> tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something >> different: First, excellent work on the id tool. Very useful. >> The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved >> interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted >> by WG chairs. >> >> Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web >> tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative >> support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating >> milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to >> iesg-secretary@ietf.org. I find the whole "action" mailing list/concept confusing, and the TT system generates inconsistent from addressing, depending (it seems) on who and what you reply to. So these questions are much appreciated. >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time >> is whether: >> >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> >> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent >> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and >> supporting both. This one. I'd like to be able to submit or reply via email or web, and be able to track my tickets via some web interface (this is fairly common usage, AFAICT) >> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) >> >> >> (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to >> query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one >> above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) Again, it would seem that facilities like 3) are very common, and shouldn't require inventing anything new... Best regards, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: sob@harvard.edu (scott bradner) To: henrik@levkowetz.com, wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:39:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO newdev.harvard.edu Henrik asked: > One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > is whether: > > 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > supporting both. > > 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > I'd say #3 - I can queue up email anywhere but have to be in real-time interactive access to use a web page its also much faster to make simple requests in an email message than to fumble with a web page, and it may be easier to submit complex requests with a web page (if the web page designers anticipated the specific type of complex request - if not then its likely to be harder using a web page if there is only one I'd rather email Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Colin Perkins To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:54:40 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Hi, On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission > tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something > different: > > > The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved > interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted > by WG chairs. > Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web > tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative > support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating > milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to > iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > > One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > is whether: > > 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories I think so. Mostly because I often end-up submitting issues whilst sitting on a flight or train, and having to wait until I have connectivity would disrupt the workflow. > (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to > query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one > above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) This would be very useful, though. Colin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "James Kempf" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:08:42 -0700 X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO fridge.docomolabs-usa.com 2) with followup notification via email. jak ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Sam Hartman To: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:44:42 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) I consider email essential for request submission. Webpages are a nice to have. There are lots of cases wher I want to copy someone on a discussion and otherwise involve people in a discussion; email works better for this. As others have pointed out email is the correct answer for offline requests. I think that being able to accept email replies is an absolute requirement for any ticketing system. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: To: , Subject: RE: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to thesecretariat Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:43:45 +0300 Henrik asked: > One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > is whether: > > 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > supporting both. > > 4) something different would be optimal (what?) Point 3 should be no problem to do (and what I would like). A simple mailto: link on a webpage with instructions on what is expected in the mail would be a sufficient first step. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jari Arkko To: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:47:48 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 I'd say keep the e-mail system and use the cycles that would go to web-based parallel into something else... with more bang for the bucks... --Jari ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 09:44:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06746; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA7Wi-0007KB-8R; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:51:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA7IF-0003lq-Vd; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:36:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA7Fl-0003Cj-6V for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:33:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06161 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA7MI-00078t-Gt for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:40:36 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 157A7381A9; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:33:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5C137EF9; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:33:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF5E37E5F; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:33:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CA7F9-0003Nt-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:33:11 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:33:11 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org, Carl Malamud Message-Id: <20040922153311.172e6698@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda proposal for 22 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Chat with Carl, mutual questions and answers 3. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 4. Action item review. * Alex: Deadline for comments on the -00 draft is Friday, aim at getting a new draft out beginning of next week. + Done * Henrik: Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses from the secretariat + Done * Henrik: Solicit information from chairs list regarding wg-chairs tickets handling via web pages. + Done, summary sent to list * Bill: Send a little summary of his experiences so far to the list + Done * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content - Requests continues to stand * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions + Done, good info and pointers to code available * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data - Started, not completed * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing list's copies of the meeting minutes. + Done 4. Next steps 5. Any other business. 6. Action items, summary 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 29 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 12:19:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20617; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9wy-00027p-DN; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:26:36 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA9Ya-0001WA-8M; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:01:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CA9TF-0008IG-TG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:55:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18918 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CA9Zq-0001as-Te for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:02:43 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MFtnwN094968; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MFtnEU094967; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:55:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat In-Reply-To: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d11a451997816a91a305dcb5ab1b85dd Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ba9b8496764663b12c333825fbf6b3d Henrik, Thanks for doing this survey. It is clear to me that a web+email combo is the way to go. Essentially, in most cases, this probably means a web interface plus Secretariat time to "translate" informal e-mails into formal web requests. There are, of course, existing tools that can support the web part. What remains unclear to me is how we should factor the cost factor in. Secretariat time "translating" informal e-mails into formal requests on the web is not free. The e-mail interface can be automated as well, but that would require submitters using some formal templates. I am not sure how to find the right balance between "Let Secretariat do all the dirty work. IETF will pay." and "Let users do all the dirty work. They will pay." In this context, "cost" and "payment" is not necessarily true money (although it could be in the long run), but more like Secretariat resources/priorities. I wonder, for example, how many submitters would use a template if a set of templates is provided. How many would use a template (or web) if formal requests are handled noticeably faster (i.e., if Secretariat gives low priority to informal request translation services). Thanks, Alex. On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Below is a copy of the mail I sent out to the wgchairs list, followed > by the responses that have come in so far. Here's a summary (which > means some simplification and interpretation; read the responses > for the full picture: > > 1) email best : xx > 2) web best : > 3) both preferred : xxxxx > > If only one: > > 1) prefers email : xxxxx > 2) prefers web : x > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Henrik Levkowetz > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:37:25 +0200 > Sender: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) > > Hi, > > Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission > tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something > different: > > > The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved > interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted > by WG chairs. > > Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web > tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative > support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating > milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to > iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > > One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > is whether: > > 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > in either of these categories > > 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > supporting both. > > 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > > > (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to > query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one > above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > > Regards, > > Henrik > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: David Meyer > To: Henrik Levkowetz > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:04:23 -0700 > User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i > > > Hey Henrik, > >>> Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission >>> tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something >>> different: > > First, excellent work on the id tool. Very useful. > >>> The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved >>> interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted >>> by WG chairs. >>> >>> Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web >>> tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative >>> support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating >>> milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to >>> iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > > I find the whole "action" mailing list/concept confusing, > and the TT system generates inconsistent from addressing, > depending (it seems) on who and what you reply to. So > these questions are much appreciated. > >>> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time >>> is whether: >>> >>> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues >>> in either of these categories >>> >>> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues >>> in either of these categories >>> >>> >>> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent >>> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and >>> supporting both. > > This one. I'd like to be able to submit or reply via > email or web, and be able to track my tickets via some > web interface (this is fairly common usage, AFAICT) > >>> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) >>> >>> >>> (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to >>> query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one >>> above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > Again, it would seem that facilities like 3) are very > common, and shouldn't require inventing anything new... > > Best regards, > > Dave > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: sob@harvard.edu (scott bradner) > To: henrik@levkowetz.com, wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:39:05 -0400 (EDT) > X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO newdev.harvard.edu > > Henrik asked: >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time >> is whether: >> >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent >> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and >> supporting both. >> >> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) >> > > I'd say #3 - I can queue up email anywhere but have to be in real-time > interactive access to use a web page > > its also much faster to make simple requests in an email message > than to fumble with a web page, and it may be easier to submit > complex requests with a web page (if the web page designers anticipated > the specific type of complex request - if not then its likely to be > harder using a web page > > if there is only one I'd rather email > > Scott > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Colin Perkins > To: Henrik Levkowetz > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:54:40 +0100 > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) > > Hi, > > On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission >> tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something >> different: >> >> >> The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved >> interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted >> by WG chairs. >> Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web >> tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative >> support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating >> milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to >> iesg-secretary@ietf.org. >> >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time >> is whether: >> >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories > > I think so. Mostly because I often end-up submitting issues whilst > sitting on a flight or train, and having to wait until I have > connectivity would disrupt the workflow. > >> (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to >> query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one >> above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > This would be very useful, though. > > Colin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: "James Kempf" > To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:08:42 -0700 > X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO fridge.docomolabs-usa.com > > 2) with followup notification via email. > > jak > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Sam Hartman > To: Henrik Levkowetz > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:44:42 -0400 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) > > I consider email essential for request submission. Webpages are a > nice to have. There are lots of cases wher I want to copy someone on > a discussion and otherwise involve people in a discussion; email works > better for this. As others have pointed out email is the correct > answer for offline requests. > > > > I think that being able to accept email replies is an absolute > requirement for any ticketing system. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: > To: , > Subject: RE: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to thesecretariat > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:43:45 +0300 > > Henrik asked: >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time >> is whether: >> >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues >> in either of these categories >> >> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent >> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and >> supporting both. >> >> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > > Point 3 should be no problem to do (and what I would like). A simple mailto: > link on a webpage with instructions on what is expected in the mail would > be a sufficient first step. > > John > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Jari Arkko > To: henrik@levkowetz.com > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:47:48 +0300 > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 > > I'd say keep the e-mail system and use the cycles > that would go to web-based parallel into something > else... with more bang for the bucks... > > --Jari > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:18:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24819; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAArO-0003Bl-Kz; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:24:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAVf-0006gL-DN; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:02:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAU5-0006IK-1h for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:00:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23748 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAae-0002uY-8O for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:07:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957E41CD8EF for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06604-03 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7400F1CD7B9 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:00:42 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Sep 2004 13:00:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <8665669r1z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Alex Rousskov writes: > What remains unclear to me is how we should factor the cost factor > in. Secretariat time "translating" informal e-mails into formal > requests on the web is not free. The e-mail interface can be automated > as well, but that would require submitters using some formal > templates. I am not sure how to find the right balance between > > "Let Secretariat do all the dirty work. IETF will pay." > and > "Let users do all the dirty work. They will pay." It would seem to me that the point of automation would be lost if manual intervention were required on the part of the secretariat (or any other administrative body) for the typical internet-draft. Some manual intervention MUST occur for cases where it's dictated by policy (e.g., -00 WG submissions), but beyond policy reasons, it should only be an exception. This would seem to mean that email interface would require some form of formal structure. If the number of options is small (accept, decline, return with note, etc.) one can imagine things like listing the options and having the human decision-maker reply and quote only the relevant command. Initialization of an effort (e.g., submission of a draft) would still require a web interface or a template, it would seem. I believe a useful follow-up survey would be the openness of various constituencies to using formal languages (commands, templates, whatever) in email. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Letters in this message are closer than they appear. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:20:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25147; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAuF-0003Hj-7e; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:51 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAl2-0001TL-Qg; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:18:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAeJ-0008B8-LG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:11:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24282 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAkt-00033B-AW for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:18:14 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 438C8382CD; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:10:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3593237F52; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:10:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149EF37E4D; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:10:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAAdc-0004DQ-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:10:40 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:10:40 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org, Carl Malamud Message-Id: <20040922191040.2a3a4fa9@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda proposal for 22 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are the minutes from today's meeting, as far as I was on it. I added some tentative action items, see if they make sense, and comment back. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Added 2.a and item under 4. 2. Chat with Carl, mutual questions and answers Carl - admin restruct is moving along - looking at which My work were: 1. document data flow 2. write restruct draft 3. help with contracts * What interaction do you have with secretariat? - Basically all communications with the secretariat is reflected in the tools-team list * What was this ticket issue ? - Described by Henrik, details also on the tools-team list. * What ticket system are they using? - RT, lightly customised, just a few queues Larry: Carl's view on priorities? - Current work is good, needed and will help a lot Carl: Are you only spec'ing, or also prototyping? - Only spec'ing Carl: I'd be happy with a much less opaque process, interaction between you and the sectretariat developers Carl: I recommended RFP out the network infrastructure, so we could run things on our own hardware, and have much closer access to it. Carl: It would be good if we could put out some development for RFP, that might also lead to more open sources. Larry: We had an opportunity to spec a larger basic infrastructure, including for example authentication as a common element, but we are not doing that now. Alex: Should we specify the format and interface to the repository of e.g. xml sources for drafts, lists of submitters, etc. Henrik: In addition to the xml format author and draft info, I'd love to have xml format information on ADs, Chairs etc. Alex: Somebody should be *responsible* for maintaining information like which drafts, chairs etc. etc. should be maintained. Is this within the area of the tools team. Carl: Getting back to identifying existing tools - this is an important institutional knowledge. It would be real nice to be able to say that "Start with this tool, it does 90 % of the job, and Henrik: Wide picture - what tools exist outside .... Biggest database/system is the secretariat database, but that is also pretty much off limit Carl: We might anyway need to start from scratch in order to develop a new version of what the secretariat uses for a database, anyway. Carl: If there is a tool you think could be slotted in, I would be happy to work at getting you free eval licenses. Carl: diff tool - docucop - would like to bring that in and look kick it around. Carl: I'm also happy to look at software for you - if there is something that would need evaluation ... Carl: is RFC editor and IANA in scope? Henrik: IANA might be, unclear, RFC editor not. With agreement from the RFC editor, could be in scope. Carl: Although it is in scope for my document data flow investigation to look at the RFC editor, so we could come to a point where it could be in scope for the tools team. Larry: Why so poor interface to the RFC editor's queue etc? Carl: Had an interview with Bob Braden, & ..., and on a question on not developing and using more tools, Bob said: We're here to edit RFCs, all this fancy technology is not necessary in order to do that. ... A lot of good reasons for more tools helping the RFC editor interface was given ... RFC editor things they are somewhat underfunded, and we thing they are adequatly founded. Larry: In your workflow analysis, would anything we would identify as a tool something that would be a step in one of your workflow diagrams? Carl: Yes, basically. I'm not doing a classic workflow analysis, but I'm looking at for instance which IANA files could be turned into XML Carl: I will be able to indicate a number of points where tools would do good use, which is a much better than the current situation. Larry: Workflow would be very helpful, and I'd be willing to spend some time on that. Carl: Right, but you won't see a classic workflow analysis Larry: A chart, names of processes, layout, bottlenecks would indicate where tools might be needed. Carl: If you can help me get insight into the workflow of the secretariat, that would be helpful. I've been looking at the pretty opaque IANA. I'll be preparing another report with this information, hopefully that should be ready by the next IETF. Carl: Documenting the workflow is necesesary, and should be done over the coming weeks. Our job this year is to understand how the IETF functions in this respect, bottlenecks etc. ---- Henrik's SIP box overheats and cuts out --- 2a. Where does requirements about rendering of drafts belong 3. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 4. Action item review. * Alex: Deadline for comments on the -00 draft is Friday, aim at getting a new draft out beginning of next week. + Done * Henrik: Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses from the secretariat + Done * Henrik: Solicit information from chairs list regarding wg-chairs tickets handling via web pages. + Done, summary sent to list * Bill: Send a little summary of his experiences so far to the list + Done * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content - Requests continues to stand * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions + Done, good info and pointers to code available * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data - Started, not completed * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing list's copies of the meeting minutes. + Done 4. Next steps Time to publish a suggested schedule of other tools, and get community input on them. Propose to have a first draft by next week. 5. Any other business. 6. Action items, summary * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data * Alex: Continue polishing and filling out the spec, new version in 1 week? ? Larry: Assist Carl on the workflow mapping ? 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 29 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:21:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25167; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAuN-0003Ht-VV; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:28:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAl5-0001Xm-4x; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:18:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAh4-0000Fv-MN for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:14:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24437 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAng-00036C-0l for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:21:05 -0400 Received: by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id EF46337EF2; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A3D37E54; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AB63800E; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:13:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAAgP-0004Eh-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:13:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:13:33 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda item: rendering of drafts X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, let's take this one on the list. Would you send out a summary of the issue, and your proposal? Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:25:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25437; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAz5-0003MJ-2V; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:32:51 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAlH-0001f4-8B; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:18:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAk2-000105-6f for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:17:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24770 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAqd-00039S-Hq for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:24:08 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id C6CF637EA0; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B9337E4C; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A635B37E52; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAAjN-0004FD-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:37 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:37 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carl Malamud , tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040922191637.6ba13634@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Tools-team call X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carl, Thanks for joining us on the call, I think it was useful and informative for all. I sent out the minutes just a minute ago - if you have any comments, please send them in. I've opened the tools-team list for email from you. At any time you want to join us on a call, to go over specific issues or general one, welcome :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:34:27 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26069; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAB7J-0003VK-8Z; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:41:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAsl-0002lx-F7; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:26:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAnN-00025R-Mf for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:20:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25135 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bulk.resource.org ([192.101.98.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAAtz-0003H5-4z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:36 -0400 Received: from bulk.resource.org (localhost.resource.org [127.0.0.1]) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i8MHKA6Y027634; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from carl@localhost) by bulk.resource.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id i8MHKAUH027633; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Carl Malamud Message-Id: <200409221720.i8MHKAUH027633@bulk.resource.org> In-Reply-To: <20040922191637.6ba13634@chardonnay> To: Henrik Levkowetz Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Memory Palace Press X-Winch: Warn 9.5i X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL94 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Tools-team call X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! I found it very useful as well and plan on listening in on a regular basis! Regards, Carl > Hi Carl, > > Thanks for joining us on the call, I think it was useful and > informative for all. > > I sent out the minutes just a minute ago - if you have any comments, > please send them in. I've opened the tools-team list for email > from you. > > At any time you want to join us on a call, to go over specific issues > or general one, welcome :-) > > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:35:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26136; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAB8K-0003WV-Ju; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:42:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAB0z-0005px-Iz; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:34:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAur-0003FQ-Ma for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:28:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25600 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAB1T-0003ON-G4 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:35:20 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F1B7C382FB; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:27:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AEA37F6D; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:27:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DC437E54; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:27:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAAuC-0004Kc-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:27:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:27:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat Message-Id: <20040922192747.5567f2ac@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 3b3709b7fb3320c78bd7b1555081f0fc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 46ad68ada464411807db2a0edd5648ae Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 22 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > Henrik, > > Thanks for doing this survey. It is clear to me that a > web+email combo is the way to go. Essentially, in most cases, this > probably means a web interface plus Secretariat time to "translate" > informal e-mails into formal web requests. There are, of course, > existing tools that can support the web part. I agree that a combo is the thing desired, and also that it would be better than what is available today. I'm not sure how high priority it has, however. And finally, I'm wondering if the easiest way of setting that up would be to exposing RT's web part to the ticket holders, either by splitting RT into two RT installations and exposing the wgchair queue, or by setting it up with permissions - I don't know exactly how capable it is in that respect. > What remains unclear to me is how we should factor the cost factor in. > Secretariat time "translating" informal e-mails into formal requests > on the web is not free. The e-mail interface can be automated as well, > but that would require submitters using some formal templates. I am > not sure how to find the right balance between > > "Let Secretariat do all the dirty work. IETF will pay." > and > "Let users do all the dirty work. They will pay." > > In this context, "cost" and "payment" is not necessarily true money > (although it could be in the long run), but more like Secretariat > resources/priorities. Well, yes, but I don't see that the current way of having email go into RT need changing - it would more be the matter of exposing a web interface in addition to the current method. Come to think of it, maybe it would be possible to expose a submit-only existing RT interface, and we'd be done :-) > I wonder, for example, how many submitters would use a template if a > set of templates is provided. How many would use a template (or web) > if formal requests are handled noticeably faster (i.e., if Secretariat > gives low priority to informal request translation services). I don't particularly see a win in trying to formalize requests to that degree - if it is something that should be tried, I think it is a separate project, not part of the first one of providing a web submission interface... Henrik > Thanks, > > Alex. > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > Below is a copy of the mail I sent out to the wgchairs list, followed > > by the responses that have come in so far. Here's a summary (which > > means some simplification and interpretation; read the responses > > for the full picture: > > > > 1) email best : xx > > 2) web best : > > 3) both preferred : xxxxx > > > > If only one: > > > > 1) prefers email : xxxxx > > 2) prefers web : x > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Henrik Levkowetz > > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:37:25 +0200 > > Sender: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org > > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) > > > > Hi, > > > > Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission > > tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something > > different: > > > > > > The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved > > interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted > > by WG chairs. > > > > Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web > > tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative > > support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating > > milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to > > iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > > > > One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > > is whether: > > > > 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > > in either of these categories > > > > 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > > in either of these categories > > > > 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > > that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > > supporting both. > > > > 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > > > > > > (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to > > query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one > > above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Henrik > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: David Meyer > > To: Henrik Levkowetz > > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:04:23 -0700 > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i > > > > > > Hey Henrik, > > > >>> Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission > >>> tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something > >>> different: > > > > First, excellent work on the id tool. Very useful. > > > >>> The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved > >>> interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted > >>> by WG chairs. > >>> > >>> Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web > >>> tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative > >>> support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating > >>> milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to > >>> iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > > > > I find the whole "action" mailing list/concept confusing, > > and the TT system generates inconsistent from addressing, > > depending (it seems) on who and what you reply to. So > > these questions are much appreciated. > > > >>> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > >>> is whether: > >>> > >>> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > >>> in either of these categories > >>> > >>> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > >>> in either of these categories > >>> > >>> > >>> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > >>> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > >>> supporting both. > > > > This one. I'd like to be able to submit or reply via > > email or web, and be able to track my tickets via some > > web interface (this is fairly common usage, AFAICT) > > > >>> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > >>> > >>> > >>> (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to > >>> query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one > >>> above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > > > Again, it would seem that facilities like 3) are very > > common, and shouldn't require inventing anything new... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Dave > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: sob@harvard.edu (scott bradner) > > To: henrik@levkowetz.com, wgchairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:39:05 -0400 (EDT) > > X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO newdev.harvard.edu > > > > Henrik asked: > >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > >> is whether: > >> > >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > >> in either of these categories > >> > >> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > >> in either of these categories > >> > >> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > >> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > >> supporting both. > >> > >> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > >> > > > > I'd say #3 - I can queue up email anywhere but have to be in real-time > > interactive access to use a web page > > > > its also much faster to make simple requests in an email message > > than to fumble with a web page, and it may be easier to submit > > complex requests with a web page (if the web page designers anticipated > > the specific type of complex request - if not then its likely to be > > harder using a web page > > > > if there is only one I'd rather email > > > > Scott > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Colin Perkins > > To: Henrik Levkowetz > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:54:40 +0100 > > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) > > > > Hi, > > > > On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the ID-submission > >> tool draft! A new version will be out shortly. Now for something > >> different: > >> > >> > >> The tools team has been discussing alternatives for an improved > >> interface to the secretariat's ticket system, for tickets submitted > >> by WG chairs. > >> Currently, problems related to servers, mailing lists, archives, Web > >> tools, etc. go by e-mail to ietf-action@ietf.org . Administrative > >> support issues (requesting publication of an I-D as an RFC, updating > >> milestones, asking questions about procedures, etc.) go by email to > >> iesg-secretary@ietf.org. > >> > >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > >> is whether: > >> > >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > >> in either of these categories > > > > I think so. Mostly because I often end-up submitting issues whilst > > sitting on a flight or train, and having to wait until I have > > connectivity would disrupt the workflow. > > > >> (The possibility of providing a web interface for ticket holders to > >> query the state of their ticket is a separate question from the one > >> above, and one which the tools team may also consider at a later time.) > > > > This would be very useful, though. > > > > Colin > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: "James Kempf" > > To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:08:42 -0700 > > X-Exim-Helo-Check-Failed: Verification failed for HELO fridge.docomolabs-usa.com > > > > 2) with followup notification via email. > > > > jak > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Sam Hartman > > To: Henrik Levkowetz > > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:44:42 -0400 > > User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) > > > > I consider email essential for request submission. Webpages are a > > nice to have. There are lots of cases wher I want to copy someone on > > a discussion and otherwise involve people in a discussion; email works > > better for this. As others have pointed out email is the correct > > answer for offline requests. > > > > > > > > I think that being able to accept email replies is an absolute > > requirement for any ticketing system. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: > > To: , > > Subject: RE: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to thesecretariat > > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:43:45 +0300 > > > > Henrik asked: > >> One particular point which we would like feedback on at this time > >> is whether: > >> > >> 1) e-mail constitutes the best way for WG chairs to submit issues > >> in either of these categories > >> > >> 2) a web interface would be the best for WG chairs to submit issues > >> in either of these categories > >> > >> 3) web and email interfaces are complimentary to such an extent > >> that it make sense to put some extra effort into building and > >> supporting both. > >> > >> 4) something different would be optimal (what?) > > > > Point 3 should be no problem to do (and what I would like). A simple mailto: > > link on a webpage with instructions on what is expected in the mail would > > be a sufficient first step. > > > > John > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jari Arkko > > To: henrik@levkowetz.com > > Subject: Re: Tool query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat > > Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:47:48 +0300 > > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 > > > > I'd say keep the e-mail system and use the cycles > > that would go to web-based parallel into something > > else... with more bang for the bucks... > > > > --Jari > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Tools-team mailing list > > Tools-team@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 13:40:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26367; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABDH-0003bj-LJ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:47:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAB12-0005rg-Si; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:34:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAAwQ-0003KY-R7 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:30:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25675 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAB32-0003Pe-V9 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:36:57 -0400 Received: by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 11BBF381F1; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0399337E6A; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A310538002; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:29:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAAvd-0004L3-00; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:29:17 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:29:17 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org, Carl Malamud Message-Id: <20040922192917.7e8c8b48@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 22 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm resending this with a more appropriate subject line :-) /Henrik Here are the minutes from today's meeting, as far as I was on it. I added some tentative action items, see if they make sense, and comment back. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Added 2.a and item under 4. 2. Chat with Carl, mutual questions and answers Carl - admin restruct is moving along - looking at which My work were: 1. document data flow 2. write restruct draft 3. help with contracts * What interaction do you have with secretariat? - Basically all communications with the secretariat is reflected in the tools-team list * What was this ticket issue ? - Described by Henrik, details also on the tools-team list. * What ticket system are they using? - RT, lightly customised, just a few queues Larry: Carl's view on priorities? - Current work is good, needed and will help a lot Carl: Are you only spec'ing, or also prototyping? - Only spec'ing Carl: I'd be happy with a much less opaque process, interaction between you and the sectretariat developers Carl: I recommended RFP out the network infrastructure, so we could run things on our own hardware, and have much closer access to it. Carl: It would be good if we could put out some development for RFP, that might also lead to more open sources. Larry: We had an opportunity to spec a larger basic infrastructure, including for example authentication as a common element, but we are not doing that now. Alex: Should we specify the format and interface to the repository of e.g. xml sources for drafts, lists of submitters, etc. Henrik: In addition to the xml format author and draft info, I'd love to have xml format information on ADs, Chairs etc. Alex: Somebody should be *responsible* for maintaining information like which drafts, chairs etc. etc. should be maintained. Is this within the area of the tools team. Carl: Getting back to identifying existing tools - this is an important institutional knowledge. It would be real nice to be able to say that "Start with this tool, it does 90 % of the job, and Henrik: Wide picture - what tools exist outside .... Biggest database/system is the secretariat database, but that is also pretty much off limit Carl: We might anyway need to start from scratch in order to develop a new version of what the secretariat uses for a database, anyway. Carl: If there is a tool you think could be slotted in, I would be happy to work at getting you free eval licenses. Carl: diff tool - docucop - would like to bring that in and look kick it around. Carl: I'm also happy to look at software for you - if there is something that would need evaluation ... Carl: is RFC editor and IANA in scope? Henrik: IANA might be, unclear, RFC editor not. With agreement from the RFC editor, could be in scope. Carl: Although it is in scope for my document data flow investigation to look at the RFC editor, so we could come to a point where it could be in scope for the tools team. Larry: Why so poor interface to the RFC editor's queue etc? Carl: Had an interview with Bob Braden, & ..., and on a question on not developing and using more tools, Bob said: We're here to edit RFCs, all this fancy technology is not necessary in order to do that. ... A lot of good reasons for more tools helping the RFC editor interface was given ... RFC editor things they are somewhat underfunded, and we thing they are adequatly founded. Larry: In your workflow analysis, would anything we would identify as a tool something that would be a step in one of your workflow diagrams? Carl: Yes, basically. I'm not doing a classic workflow analysis, but I'm looking at for instance which IANA files could be turned into XML Carl: I will be able to indicate a number of points where tools would do good use, which is a much better than the current situation. Larry: Workflow would be very helpful, and I'd be willing to spend some time on that. Carl: Right, but you won't see a classic workflow analysis Larry: A chart, names of processes, layout, bottlenecks would indicate where tools might be needed. Carl: If you can help me get insight into the workflow of the secretariat, that would be helpful. I've been looking at the pretty opaque IANA. I'll be preparing another report with this information, hopefully that should be ready by the next IETF. Carl: Documenting the workflow is necesesary, and should be done over the coming weeks. Our job this year is to understand how the IETF functions in this respect, bottlenecks etc. ---- Henrik's SIP box overheats and cuts out --- 2a. Where does requirements about rendering of drafts belong 3. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 4. Action item review. * Alex: Deadline for comments on the -00 draft is Friday, aim at getting a new draft out beginning of next week. + Done * Henrik: Get info about relationship of cc: and spam mail causing false addresses from the secretariat + Done * Henrik: Solicit information from chairs list regarding wg-chairs tickets handling via web pages. + Done, summary sent to list * Bill: Send a little summary of his experiences so far to the list + Done * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content - Requests continues to stand * Larry: ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples consent to publish mailing list submissions + Done, good info and pointers to code available * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data - Started, not completed * Larry: to add a link from the wiki to the mailing list's copies of the meeting minutes. + Done 4. Next steps Time to publish a suggested schedule of other tools, and get community input on them. Propose to have a first draft by next week. 5. Any other business. 6. Action items, summary * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data * Alex: Continue polishing and filling out the spec, new version in 1 week? ? Larry: Assist Carl on the workflow mapping ? 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 29 Sep, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 14:03:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27723; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABYw-00040F-N6; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:09:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABK5-0001SA-1q; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:54:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABFR-0000eW-JH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:49:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27059 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABM3-0003nn-Ih for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:56:36 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MHnhwN099541; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:49:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MHng9t099540; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:49:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:49:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Secretariat requirements for the ID Submission tool available at http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00090.html contain Section VI "I-D Status and Version Number". This section has requirements on rendering drafts in various stages such as Active, Expired, Replaced-By, or Withdrawn. These requirements talk, in part, about making draft versions visible or invisible to the public and about creating tombstones for invisible or future draft versions. I believe these requirements do not belong to the ID Submission draft because draft submission is just one of many ways to change the state of the draft (and, hence, change how it is rendered). If we want to document how drafts are rendered and made accessible, I would suggest to create a separate "ID Rendering" draft. That draft will reflect current Secretariat requirements mentioned above and may add more requirements. For example, I would require "latest" draft to be accessible by name (not just name-version), document how alternative draft formats are made available, and require diffs. One argument for a separate draft is that it moves the hot issue of making draft diffs (and hence old draft versions) available to a different document. Doing so may allow us to finish the ID Submission draft faster and get it approved/implemented soon. Other related tools that I would place outside of the ID Submission tool scope are small and simple "existing draft manipulation tools": - withdraw a draft - request draft publication (IESG review, etc.) - mark draft as "published" (after IESG review, etc.) - rename a draft (do we really need that?) All of the above affect draft state, but are not directly related to draft rendering. Each can go into a separate draft, but they may be small and related enough to fit into one document. Questions: 1a) Does draft rendering belong to the ID submission draft? 1b) Do we need a "Draft Rendering" draft or should we leave it up to secretariat how to render drafts? 2a) Does existing draft manipulation belong to the ID submission draft? 2b) Do we need a "Draft Manipulation" draft OR should we leave it up to secretariat to provide those tools (or handle those actions manually via Secretariat ticket system)? N.B. There is probably a better term than "rendering" for the "Draft Rendering" draft. "Draft Access"? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 14:14:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28373; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABkF-0004BS-JJ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:21:36 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABSw-0003TU-W3; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:03:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABOm-00029W-HG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:59:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27510 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABVP-0003xo-0O for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:06:15 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MHxMwN099954; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:59:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MHxMF7099953; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:59:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:59:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat In-Reply-To: <8665669r1z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040922115729.X92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> <8665669r1z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Alex Rousskov writes: > >> What remains unclear to me is how we should factor the cost factor >> in. Secretariat time "translating" informal e-mails into formal >> requests on the web is not free. The e-mail interface can be automated >> as well, but that would require submitters using some formal >> templates. I am not sure how to find the right balance between >> >> "Let Secretariat do all the dirty work. IETF will pay." >> and >> "Let users do all the dirty work. They will pay." > > It would seem to me that the point of automation would be lost if > manual intervention were required on the part of the secretariat (or > any other administrative body) for the typical internet-draft. Just a note: This survey/thread is not about draft submission but about other things that Secretariat does for WG Chairs. Draft submission will be fully automated (with a manual submission option for unusual cases). Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 14:14:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28396; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABkV-0004Bi-HT; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:21:51 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABSz-0003UO-1J; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:03:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CABSH-0003Ak-6I for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:03:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27711 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CABYs-00040A-J7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:09:52 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MI2vwN001692; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:02:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MI2vaU001691; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:02:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:02:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 22 Sep 2004 Telechat In-Reply-To: <20040922192917.7e8c8b48@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040922120107.T92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922192917.7e8c8b48@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Carl Malamud , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > 4. Next steps > > Time to publish a suggested schedule of other tools, and get > community input on them. Propose to have a first draft by > next week. Do we really need/want a draft for this information? Priorities and schedule are dynamic, and historic value of some snapshot is low. Should we just do a web page instead? IETF can review web pages, not just drafts! Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 16:38:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14001; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CADz7-0008LL-VW; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:45:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CADaw-0000W1-5c; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:20:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CADSu-0000yg-FX for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:11:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10745 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CADZX-0007L7-Bt for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:18:40 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89DB1CD51C for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08323-10 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808B61CD4D4 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:11:45 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> <8665669r1z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040922115729.X92494@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Sep 2004 16:11:57 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20040922115729.X92494@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <861xgu9i7m.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Alex Rousskov writes: > Just a note: This survey/thread is not about draft submission but > about other things that Secretariat does for WG Chairs. Draft > submission will be fully automated (with a manual submission option > for unusual cases). Understood. We need some form of profiling of the current secretariat functions. Not what they do exactly in each procedure, but just how much time is spent there. Then we can identify pieces that would benefit from automation most. I was silently assuming that draft advance takes up significant amount of human administrative resources. I suppose I don't really know if that's the case. Carl's suggestion of conducting interviews with the secretariat folks is quite sound. I would venture to add that interviewing the admins might actually make even more sense than interviewing the programmers: after all, it's not the programming that would be automated (or, to put it differently: the programmers could supply debugging and flow information while the admins could help with profiling data). There could be considerable difficulty getting good answers given the atmosphere in the secretariat, but what would we lose? At worst, a couple hours of time. The benefit for the IETF is potentially much greater. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Religion is the opium of them asses. --Karlm Arx _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 17:19:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16611; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAEdG-0000ex-7v; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:26:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAEJs-0000T6-9t; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:06:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAEAT-0006jI-TX for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:56:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15370 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAEH6-0000IH-Hh for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:03:42 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2C65537E97; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:56:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEC337E78; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:56:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0348337E55; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:56:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAE9v-0005Gt-NN; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:56:15 +0200 Message-ID: <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:56:13 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Alex. My comments below are my personal viewpoints: Alex Rousskov wrote: > > Secretariat requirements for the ID Submission tool available at > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00090.html > contain Section VI "I-D Status and Version Number". > > This section has requirements on rendering drafts in various stages such > as Active, Expired, Replaced-By, or Withdrawn. These requirements talk, > in part, about making draft versions visible or invisible to the public > and about creating tombstones for invisible or future draft versions. > > I believe these requirements do not belong to the ID Submission draft > because draft submission is just one of many ways to change the state of > the draft (and, hence, change how it is rendered). I think these requirements capture not the secretariats wishes, but the rules agreed on and requested from the secretariat from various bodies, historically. Whether or not the I-D submission tool is one of several ways of changing the status of a draft, it will have to confirm to the current setup, in order to fit in. Whether or not the current setup should be changes is, I think, a valid subject for a proposal of an experimental change or parallel implementation of a parallel mechanism. > If we want to document how drafts are rendered and made accessible, I > would suggest to create a separate "ID Rendering" draft. That draft will > reflect current Secretariat requirements mentioned above and may add > more requirements. For example, I would require "latest" draft to be > accessible by name (not just name-version), document how alternative > draft formats are made available, and require diffs. I think this would be interesting and meaningful, but as a proposal of an experiment, or a change proposal. > One argument for a separate draft is that it moves the hot issue of > making draft diffs (and hence old draft versions) available to a > different document. Doing so may allow us to finish the ID Submission > draft faster and get it approved/implemented soon. True, but only if we make it a change proposal, rather than documenting the requirements resting on the secretariat currently. > Other related tools that I would place outside of the ID Submission tool > scope are small and simple "existing draft manipulation tools": > - withdraw a draft --- I think this is only possible in the sense of submitting a draft which says "this draft withdrawn" - not by removal from the archive. To be able to submit such a withdrawal document could be left to the manual fallback option. > - request draft publication (IESG review, etc.) --- New tool, I think. And useful. > - mark draft as "published" (after IESG review, etc.) --- Internal secretariat tool. Makes sense to me, but is up to them. > - rename a draft (do we really need that?) --- I think not, creates problems and solves none (?) > All of the above affect draft state, but are not directly related > to draft rendering. Each can go into a separate draft, but they > may be small and related enough to fit into one document. > > Questions: > 1a) Does draft rendering belong to the ID submission draft? Only as a description of what the tool needs to support today, before any (possibly coming) changes have been defined and agreed upon > 1b) Do we need a "Draft Rendering" draft or should we leave > it up to secretariat how to render drafts? I think a separate experiment in this direction makes sense > 2a) Does existing draft manipulation belong to the ID > submission draft? I think not > 2b) Do we need a "Draft Manipulation" draft OR should we > leave it up to secretariat to provide those tools (or > handle those actions manually via Secretariat ticket > system)? For one part - see above - a submission for publication interface, I think. > N.B. There is probably a better term than "rendering" for the "Draft > Rendering" draft. "Draft Access"? Yes, that's better. Or accessibility, maybe. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 17:43:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18552; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAF04-00019c-6Q; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:50:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAEmc-0006bd-NH; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:36:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAEdM-0004QI-Pp for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:26:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17212 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAEjy-0000no-7p for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:33:33 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MLQXwN010320; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:26:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MLQXqs010319; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:26:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:26:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Summary: WG chairs query: preferred interface for wg tickets to the secretariat In-Reply-To: <861xgu9i7m.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20040922144102.O92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922151959.124d5859@chardonnay> <20040922094442.Q92494@measurement-factory.com> <8665669r1z.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20040922115729.X92494@measurement-factory.com> <861xgu9i7m.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > We need some form of profiling of the current secretariat functions. > Not what they do exactly in each procedure, but just how much time > is spent there. Then we can identify pieces that would benefit from > automation most. I am not sure I agree that we need to profile Secretariat. To me, this implies optimizing Secretariat work. We are not Secretariat managers and should leave internal Secretariat optimizations to Secretariat. We should be optimizing IETF-Secretariat interaction and interfaces instead of micro-managing Secretariat work. For example, we know what the current draft submission interface is. We know how long it takes to post a draft. It does not have to take that long. So we write a spec that says "valid drafts must be posted immediately" (among many other things). As reasonable people we all assume automation behind that interface, but if Secretariat can support our requirements without automation, nobody should object! Similarly, we know what the current ticket interface is. We know of several big problems such as visibility and accountability. We suggest what the interface should be and polish our suggestions in cooperation with Secretariat and IETF. It would be up to Secretariat to find the right tools to implement the interface. Note that none of the above requires or can benefit from profiling current secretariat activities. If we start profiling secretariat, IETF should hire an internal IT team instead of outsourcing its own technical support. When you outsource, you trust the external team to do their best to satisfy your requirements. You pay them if they do. You find somebody else (or do the work internally) if they do not. And then you go out of business if your requirements are unreasonable. > I was silently assuming that draft advance takes up significant > amount of human administrative resources. I suppose I don't really > know if that's the case. What's more important, is that posting delay is unreasonable and I-D archive lacks many essential features. We know it does not have to be that way, so we document what the interfaces should be. IETF reviews and eventually asks Secretariat to implement our specs. > Carl's suggestion of conducting interviews with the secretariat > folks is quite sound. I would venture to add that interviewing the > admins might actually make even more sense than interviewing the > programmers: ... I do not object to information gathering, and I think both admins and programmers may provide interesting information. However, again, we should not manage Secretariat, so while I am curious about their internals, I am not sure the specs we write should be affected by those internals beyond perhaps some kind of a "migration path" arguments. Carl may want to know what happens to the draft or ticket when it is e-mailed to Secretariat. I am also curious, but (migration issues aside) I am not sure it makes any difference for us. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 18:07:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20559; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAFNa-0001dK-Bx; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:14:26 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAFBy-00060w-DH; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:02:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAF2P-00022n-FO for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:52:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19062 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAF93-0001Iq-SV for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:59:26 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MLqVwN011413; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:52:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MLqVdc011412; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:52:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:52:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Alex Rousskov wrote: >> >> Secretariat requirements for the ID Submission tool available at >> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tools-team/current/msg00090.html >> contain Section VI "I-D Status and Version Number". >> >> This section has requirements on rendering drafts in various stages >> such as Active, Expired, Replaced-By, or Withdrawn. These >> requirements talk, in part, about making draft versions visible or >> invisible to the public and about creating tombstones for invisible >> or future draft versions. >> >> I believe these requirements do not belong to the ID Submission >> draft because draft submission is just one of many ways to change >> the state of the draft (and, hence, change how it is rendered). > > I think these requirements capture not the secretariats wishes, but > the rules agreed on and requested from the secretariat from various > bodies, historically. Whether or not the I-D submission tool is one > of several ways of changing the status of a draft, it will have to > confirm to the current setup, in order to fit in. Whether or not > the current setup should be changes is, I think, a valid subject for > a proposal of an experimental change or parallel implementation of a > parallel mechanism. I am not sure I follow. I-D submission tool is a new tool. It needs to support some of the current setup (e.g., draft needs to be posted), but does not have to support all of it (e.g., existing draft manipulation seems out of scope to me) and may add new functions (e.g., accept XML sources). I am not arguing for any changes in this thread. I am trying to define draft(s) scope. >> If we want to document how drafts are rendered and made accessible, >> I would suggest to create a separate "ID Rendering" draft. That >> draft will reflect current Secretariat requirements mentioned above >> and may add more requirements. For example, I would require >> "latest" draft to be accessible by name (not just name-version), >> document how alternative draft formats are made available, and >> require diffs. > > I think this would be interesting and meaningful, but as a proposal > of an experiment, or a change proposal. I do not understand the practical difference. Either we document how drafts should be rendered (including whatever changes we think are needed) or we do not document at all. It does not make sense to document the current rendering interface because it is already there, right? >> One argument for a separate draft is that it moves the hot issue of >> making draft diffs (and hence old draft versions) available to a >> different document. Doing so may allow us to finish the ID >> Submission draft faster and get it approved/implemented soon. > > True, but only if we make it a change proposal, rather than > documenting the requirements resting on the secretariat currently. Why would TOOLs team want to document current requirements/interfaces if not to make changes and adjustments to them? It seems to me that all of our proposals are "change proposals". Every new tool or interface is a change. >> Other related tools that I would place outside of the ID Submission tool >> scope are small and simple "existing draft manipulation tools": >> - withdraw a draft > > --- I think this is only possible in the sense of submitting a draft > which says "this draft withdrawn" - not by removal from the archive. > To be able to submit such a withdrawal document could be left to the > manual fallback option. I got it from the Secretariat document. See "Via this tool, the author or the IESG can withdraw an Active I-D" paragraph. >> - rename a draft (do we really need that?) > > --- I think not, creates problems and solves none (?) Agreed, but, again, this came from the Secretariat document. See "Via this tool, one can replace an active I-D with a new I-D with a different filename" paragraph. >> Questions: >> 1a) Does draft rendering belong to the ID submission draft? > > Only as a description of what the tool needs to support today, before > any (possibly coming) changes have been defined and agreed upon But ID submission toolset does not have to support any draft rendering or any draft manipulation. That is what I am trying to get to. These functions seem out of scope. But I need team's decision since these functions are in the Secretariat Requirements document. We cannot just silently ignore them. >> 1b) Do we need a "Draft Rendering" draft or should we leave >> it up to secretariat how to render drafts? > > I think a separate experiment in this direction makes sense Great. Any volunteers? >> 2a) Does existing draft manipulation belong to the ID >> submission draft? > > I think not OK. I will not include it unless there are any objections. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 18:44:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23757; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAFxN-0002CS-NS; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:51:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAFne-0002gG-CD; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:41:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAFmS-0002K6-Ec for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:40:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23503 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAFt7-00028T-H6 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:47:01 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B55DE37E78; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A633C37E65; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986D637E44; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAFlw-0008Oz-FX; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4151FF27.1090908@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:35 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes for 22 Sep 2004 Telechat References: <20040922192917.7e8c8b48@chardonnay> <20040922120107.T92494@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040922120107.T92494@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Carl Malamud , IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> 4. Next steps >> >> Time to publish a suggested schedule of other tools, and get >> community input on them. Propose to have a first draft by >> next week. > > > Do we really need/want a draft for this information? Priorities and > schedule are dynamic, and historic value of some snapshot is low. Should > we just do a web page instead? IETF can review web pages, not just drafts! I'm thinking draft because that is traditionally the way to more widely solicit comments within the IETF. Yes, I expect that priorities may change as things happen and as we learn more. But presenting a proposed priority and sequence for comment seems good, and a draft would be one of the appropriate means. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 18:59:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24473; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:59:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAGBp-0002Oh-D3; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:06:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAFyg-0004zv-DW; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:52:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAFxn-0004jt-Vg for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:51:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24085 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAG4T-0002HD-4D for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:58:45 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5E54937ED4; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B26737E53; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB3337E46; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:51:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAFxF-0000Ag-OO; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:51:17 +0200 Message-ID: <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:51:18 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7da5a831c477fb6ef97f379a05fb683c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > [snip] >> I think these requirements capture not the secretariats wishes, but >> the rules agreed on and requested from the secretariat from various >> bodies, historically. Whether or not the I-D submission tool is one >> of several ways of changing the status of a draft, it will have to >> confirm to the current setup, in order to fit in. Whether or not the >> current setup should be changes is, I think, a valid subject for a >> proposal of an experimental change or parallel implementation of a >> parallel mechanism. > > > I am not sure I follow. I-D submission tool is a new tool. It needs to > support some of the current setup (e.g., draft needs to be posted), but > does not have to support all of it (e.g., existing draft manipulation > seems out of scope to me) and may add new functions (e.g., accept XML > sources). > > I am not arguing for any changes in this thread. I am trying to define > draft(s) scope. Agreed. What I'm saying is that to have a complete set of requirements, we want to capture also current requirements, not only new, as far as they apply to this new tool. Which is why I think it make sense to include these requirements as received from the secretariat. > >>> If we want to document how drafts are rendered and made accessible, I >>> would suggest to create a separate "ID Rendering" draft. That draft >>> will reflect current Secretariat requirements mentioned above and may >>> add more requirements. For example, I would require "latest" draft to >>> be accessible by name (not just name-version), document how >>> alternative draft formats are made available, and require diffs. >> >> >> I think this would be interesting and meaningful, but as a proposal of >> an experiment, or a change proposal. > > > I do not understand the practical difference. Either we document how > drafts should be rendered (including whatever changes we think are > needed) or we do not document at all. It does not make sense to document > the current rendering interface because it is already there, right? I think it makes sense to make requirements complete, as far as they may impact the implementation of the tool. >>> One argument for a separate draft is that it moves the hot issue of >>> making draft diffs (and hence old draft versions) available to a >>> different document. Doing so may allow us to finish the ID Submission >>> draft faster and get it approved/implemented soon. >> >> >> True, but only if we make it a change proposal, rather than >> documenting the requirements resting on the secretariat currently. > > > Why would TOOLs team want to document current requirements/interfaces if > not to make changes and adjustments to them? It seems to me that all of > our proposals are "change proposals". Every new tool or interface is a > change. Because even if the tool is new, some of the requirements on it are not. And to be useful for the developers, the requirements need to be complete >>> Other related tools that I would place outside of the ID Submission >>> tool scope are small and simple "existing draft manipulation tools": >>> - withdraw a draft >> >> >> --- I think this is only possible in the sense of submitting a draft >> which says "this draft withdrawn" - not by removal from the archive. >> To be able to submit such a withdrawal document could be left to the >> manual fallback option. > > I got it from the Secretariat document. See "Via this tool, the author > or the IESG can withdraw an Active I-D" paragraph. Mmm. If that is something that currently can be done manually, it may go in. If not, I'm not sure it's reasonable... > >>> - rename a draft (do we really need that?) >> >> >> --- I think not, creates problems and solves none (?) > > > Agreed, but, again, this came from the Secretariat document. See "Via > this tool, one can replace an active I-D with a new I-D with a different > filename" paragraph. Same comment as above. There may be things here we're not aware of ... > >>> Questions: >>> 1a) Does draft rendering belong to the ID submission draft? >> >> >> Only as a description of what the tool needs to support today, before >> any (possibly coming) changes have been defined and agreed upon > > > But ID submission toolset does not have to support any draft rendering > or any draft manipulation. That is what I am trying to get to. These > functions seem out of scope. But I need team's decision since these > functions are in the Secretariat Requirements document. We cannot just > silently ignore them. No, we should try to understand the background better - there may be things here to learn :-) >>> 1b) Do we need a "Draft Rendering" draft or should we leave >>> it up to secretariat how to render drafts? >> >> >> I think a separate experiment in this direction makes sense > > > Great. Any volunteers? > >>> 2a) Does existing draft manipulation belong to the ID >>> submission draft? >> >> >> I think not > > > OK. I will not include it unless there are any objections. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 22 19:09:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25007; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAGLT-0002W8-Gh; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:16:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAGDp-00085P-1V; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:08:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAGCt-0007vB-64 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:07:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24958 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAGJX-0002UT-Vc for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:14:21 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8MN7NwN014655; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:07:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8MN7NER014654; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:07:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:07:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > What I'm saying is that to have a complete set of requirements, we > want to capture also current requirements, not only new, as far as > they apply to this new tool. Agreed, "as far as they apply to this new tool" is the question of this thread. > Which is why I think it make sense to include these requirements as > received from the secretariat. IMO, the draft rendering requirements (such as creating a tombstone) while received from the Secretariat, are not in the ID Submission tool scope. They are useful requirements, but for a different tool/interface. I want to make sure we do not ignore them, but would prefer not to put them in the ID Submission draft. > I think it makes sense to make requirements complete, as far as they > may impact the implementation of the tool. Agreed. I do not see how tombstone or diff creation would affect the implementation of the ID submission tool. Do you? Does anybody? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 04:29:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21960; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAP5C-0002iC-IQ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:36:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAOvv-0004tw-Le; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:26:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAOmz-0003px-2Y for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:17:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21326 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAOti-0002TM-9S for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:24:15 -0400 Received: by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id D001937F59; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:16:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C283137EF5; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:16:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02AF3800A; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:16:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAOmO-0001d9-Sx; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:16:40 +0200 Message-ID: <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:16:40 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> What I'm saying is that to have a complete set of requirements, we >> want to capture also current requirements, not only new, as far as >> they apply to this new tool. > > > Agreed, "as far as they apply to this new tool" is the question of this > thread. > >> Which is why I think it make sense to include these requirements as >> received from the secretariat. > > > IMO, the draft rendering requirements (such as creating a tombstone) > while received from the Secretariat, are not in the ID Submission tool > scope. They are useful requirements, but for a different tool/interface. > I want to make sure we do not ignore them, but would prefer not to put > them in the ID Submission draft. > >> I think it makes sense to make requirements complete, as far as they >> may impact the implementation of the tool. > > > Agreed. I do not see how tombstone or diff creation would affect the > implementation of the ID submission tool. Do you? Does anybody? Ah, Yes, I think I do know. Consider this: The secretariat may also wish to use this tool internally, in order to do some things which have much the same logistics as draft submissions - such as setting tombstones. The requirement which has not been made explicit would then be that the tool has two modes, one public and one internal, where the internal mode permits the secretariat to do a number of things: * Post a draft which does not pass the nits check cleanly, but has been manually checked and found Ok * Post a tombstone, which should not be possible through the public interface. * Other admin stuff - I assume this is where the rename etc. comes in. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 08:50:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08752; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAT9i-00079F-VD; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:57:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CASwb-0002lV-JG; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:43:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAStL-0002Gz-TK for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:40:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07645 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAT08-0006yL-Gz for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:47:08 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8NCe6wN046582; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:40:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8NCe6Gi046581; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:40:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:40:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Consider this: The secretariat may also wish to use this tool > internally, in order to do some things which have much the same > logistics as draft submissions - such as setting tombstones. I agree that Secretariat needs a tool or tools for internal use. I still have not heard any arguments why all those tools should be documented in the ID Submission draft. You say "same logistics", but that is not precise enough to make scoping decision. All these tools revolve around drafts, but that does not mean there should be a single tool doing all things. You have already agreed, for example, that "request to publish" tool should be separate. > The requirement which has not been made explicit would then be that > the tool has two modes, one public and one internal, where the > internal mode permits the secretariat to do a number of things: Internal use by Secretariat is already explicit in the ID Submissions draft (but needs more details, see below). However, I do not think that every known internal activity related to draft manipulation and rendering should go into one ID Submission tool. > * Post a draft which does not pass the nits check cleanly, but > has been manually checked and found Ok The documented "Adjust and submit to Secretariat" path gets the draft to the Secretariat attention. That path lets the Secretariat post the draft (if appropriate) using the same toolset. The tool code will know (most likely via HTTP authentication) that it is being executed by the Secretariat and will allow them to force posting. > * Post a tombstone, which should not be possible through the > public interface. I cannot think of a case where posting a tombstone would be explicit. It is always a side-effect of some state changes (and this whole recent tombstone practice may need serious revisions, but none of that seems to be specific to ID Submission draft). > * Other admin stuff - I assume this is where the rename etc. > comes in. Right, but I still do not understand why everything and the kitchen sink needs to be documented in one draft. Can we please limit the scope of the ID Submission draft to "getting the draft to the draft repository"? This is the currently documented scope. Expanding it to rendering and posted draft management will, IMO: - delay final draft publication (because there will be a lot more stuff to document and argue about) - delay draft approval (because more controversial changes will be pulled into the draft) - delay implementation (because there will be more things to implement) Instead, I suggest that we provide a map between all currently known Secretariat requirements and drafts, but do not bloat the ID Submission draft: - "getting the draft from IETFer to draft repository": "ID Submission" draft - "manipulating a posted draft": "ID Manipulation draft" or drafts - "displaying draft and its metadata": "ID Access" draft This way we can make visible progress now and get tools implemented faster, while not ignoring important requirements. Any objections? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 09:16:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10731; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CATZK-0007cu-Vu; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:23:31 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CATNI-0006Mz-CF; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:11:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CATLd-0006F3-75 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:09:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10345 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CATSP-0007X9-Tk for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:16:22 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F217937EC9; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:08:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BA937E4A; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:08:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5AE37E45; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:08:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CATL6-0007z0-00; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:08:48 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:08:48 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts Message-Id: <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Thursday, 23 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > Consider this: The secretariat may also wish to use this tool > > internally, in order to do some things which have much the same > > logistics as draft submissions - such as setting tombstones. > > I agree that Secretariat needs a tool or tools for internal use. I > still have not heard any arguments why all those tools should be > documented in the ID Submission draft. I don't think anyone has been arguing that case, either :-) > You say "same logistics", but > that is not precise enough to make scoping decision. All these tools > revolve around drafts, but that does not mean there should be a single > tool doing all things. You have already agreed, for example, that > "request to publish" tool should be separate. Oh, I think if you consider "the same logistics" again, you'll find that it could mean (my intention) to be basically the same sequence of actions which an external draft submission goes through - meaning it would make sense to make it a part of this tool. > > The requirement which has not been made explicit would then be that > > the tool has two modes, one public and one internal, where the > > internal mode permits the secretariat to do a number of things: > > Internal use by Secretariat is already explicit in the ID Submissions > draft (but needs more details, see below). However, I do not think > that every known internal activity related to draft manipulation and > rendering should go into one ID Submission tool. Again, nobody has been arguing this case. > > > * Post a draft which does not pass the nits check cleanly, but > > has been manually checked and found Ok > > The documented "Adjust and submit to Secretariat" path gets the draft > to the Secretariat attention. That path lets the Secretariat post the > draft (if appropriate) using the same toolset. The tool code will know > (most likely via HTTP authentication) that it is being executed by the > Secretariat and will allow them to force posting. Somehow the tool will know, and permit this. I think we agree. > > > * Post a tombstone, which should not be possible through the > > public interface. > > I cannot think of a case where posting a tombstone would be explicit. > It is always a side-effect of some state changes (and this whole > recent tombstone practice may need serious revisions, but none of that > seems to be specific to ID Submission draft). Considering that there may not exist some other automated way of posting a tombstone, I see no reason at all to prohibit the secratariat from using this tool to do so. We can recommend that it be done by enhancing the ID-tracker, but if the secretariat wants to have the option of posting a tombstone manually, I think it makes sense to do it the basically the same way they do a forced draft posting. > > > * Other admin stuff - I assume this is where the rename etc. > > comes in. > > Right, but I still do not understand why everything and the kitchen > sink needs to be documented in one draft. Again, nobody has argued that it should :-) > . Can we please limit the > scope of the ID Submission draft to "getting the draft to the > draft repository"? This is the currently documented scope. Expanding > it to rendering and posted draft management will, IMO: If we disregard the secretariat's expressed requirements - or worse, actively tries to prevent them from having a tool that will cover their needs, I think we are making a mistake. And I think it will result in whatever we produce, however fast, not being well received... > > - delay final draft publication (because there will be > a lot more stuff to document and argue about) > > - delay draft approval (because more controversial > changes will be pulled into the draft) > > - delay implementation (because there will be more things > to implement) > > Instead, I suggest that we provide a map between all currently known > Secretariat requirements and drafts, but do not bloat the ID > Submission draft: > > - "getting the draft from IETFer to draft repository": > "ID Submission" draft > > - "manipulating a posted draft": > "ID Manipulation draft" or drafts > > - "displaying draft and its metadata": > "ID Access" draft > > This way we can make visible progress now and get tools implemented > faster, while not ignoring important requirements. Any objections? By now, it should be obvious that I think it is a mistake to try to push out actions like secretariat forced draft posting and secretariat forced tombstone posting, which it makes sense *to them* to have as part of this tool. I think we need to remember this crucial point: The secretariat does desire to build a tool that will help them do their work better and easier. We are here to provide input on the *IETF community's requirements* on tools that are used, or will be used, by the community. If we feel like recommending alternative designs and courses of action to the secretariat, that's fine, but if we try to tell them that they are not allowed to do what they set out to do in the first place, instead of assisting with the community' side of the requirements, we are probably not helping forward progress. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 13:56:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04965; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXwR-0005jM-9O; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:03:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAXdc-0003S3-5d; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:44:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAXZG-0002rL-7b for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:39:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03839 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXg5-0005MY-9z for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:46:45 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8NHdcwN058059; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:39:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8NHdc9g058058; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:39:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:39:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> You say "same logistics", but that is not precise enough to make >> scoping decision. All these tools revolve around drafts, but that >> does not mean there should be a single tool doing all things. You >> have already agreed, for example, that "request to publish" tool >> should be separate. > > Oh, I think if you consider "the same logistics" again, you'll find > that it could mean (my intention) to be basically the same sequence > of actions which an external draft submission goes through - meaning > it would make sense to make it a part of this tool. What I am trying to say is that the rendering and manipulation in question do not share the enough of actions/features with the draft submission tool. There is some overlap. of course, but not enough to justify packing them all into one tool. This is my point of view. Since this is about design, this is not something I can formally prove; I can only keep coming up with more examples where two tools are better than one. All these tools may share a common library of sorts, of course. Still, in my opinion, we should specify their interfaces and requirements separately, both from design and our work review/approval process points of view. >> Internal use by Secretariat is already explicit in the ID >> Submissions draft (but needs more details, see below). However, I >> do not think that every known internal activity related to draft >> manipulation and rendering should go into one ID Submission tool. > > Again, nobody has been arguing this case. Then I am not sure what case you are arguing for. We can put everything into one draft, we can split the way I suggested, or we can do something else. If you want something else, please describe what you want. >>> * Post a draft which does not pass the nits check cleanly, but >>> has been manually checked and found Ok >> >> The documented "Adjust and submit to Secretariat" path gets the draft >> to the Secretariat attention. That path lets the Secretariat post the >> draft (if appropriate) using the same toolset. The tool code will know >> (most likely via HTTP authentication) that it is being executed by the >> Secretariat and will allow them to force posting. > > Somehow the tool will know, and permit this. I think we agree. Here, yes. We are talking about the same action -- posting of a new draft. However, draft rendering and manipulation are sufficiently different actions to describe them separately (and such segregation is good from process point of view as well), IMO. > Considering that there may not exist some other automated way of > posting a tombstone, I see no reason at all to prohibit the secratariat > from using this tool to do so. We can recommend that it be done by > enhancing the ID-tracker, but if the secretariat wants to have the > option of posting a tombstone manually, I think it makes sense to do > it the basically the same way they do a forced draft posting. Again, I do not think that there is a need to explicitly post a tombstone. None of the known Secretariat requirements have such an action. Tombstone is always a side-effect of some other action. We should describe that side-effect when documenting a tool for that action. New ID submission does not have such a side-effect. >> Can we please limit the scope of the ID Submission draft to >> "getting the draft to the draft repository"? This is the currently >> documented scope. Expanding it to rendering and posted draft >> management will, IMO: > > If we disregard the secretariat's expressed requirements - or worse, > actively tries to prevent them from having a tool that will cover their > needs, I think we are making a mistake. And I think it will result in > whatever we produce, however fast, not being well received... At this time, I am not proposing to disregard Secretariat requirements. I propose to address their requirements via a set of tools. The ID Submission draft will document new ID submission. Other drafts will document ID rendering and existing ID manipulation. What's wrong with that approach, and what is the alternative? > By now, it should be obvious that I think it is a mistake to try to > push out actions like secretariat forced draft posting and > secretariat forced tombstone posting, which it makes sense *to them* > to have as part of this tool. Hmm... I have explicitly said that forced new draft posting is in scope so I am not sure why you are saying "push [it] out". As for "forced tombstone posting", I do not see that as a stand-alone action in Secretariat requirements. It is always a side-effect of some other action, and never a side-effect of posting a new draft action. It is also a side-effect of time passing by (which is not in current Secretariat requirements?). Did I misinterpreted Secretariat requirements? Finally, and I realize that this may cause a few more needless iterations, I have to say for the record that I am not here to document what makes sense to Secretariat. I am here to document what I think makes sense for IETF-Secretariat interfaces. Hopefully, the difference is negligible (if any), but "it makes sense to them" is not a _sufficient_ condition for me to document something. The TOOLs team was created so that we can evaluate and balance what makes sense to several parties and propose what we think is the best solution. > I think we need to remember this crucial point: The secretariat does > desire to build a tool that will help them do their work better and > easier. We are here to provide input on the *IETF community's > requirements* on tools that are used, or will be used, by the community. Agreed. > If we feel like recommending alternative designs and courses of > action to the secretariat, that's fine, but if we try to tell them > that they are not allowed to do what they set out to do in the first > place, instead of assisting with the community' side of the > requirements, we are probably not helping forward progress. My understanding is that, besides satisfying IETF requirements, Secretariat is free to do whatever they want as long as their actions do not conflict with the requirements. But I am not sure why we are talking about this because I have not proposed to prohibit something. So far, I have only been asking to split addressing their requirements into several tools/drafts. This is about individual draft scope rather than prohibition. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 13:57:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05064; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXxf-0005kY-Ok; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:04:56 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAXkj-0004sO-Jt; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:51:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAXca-0003Iz-4A for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:43:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03972 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAXjP-0005PL-Lm for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:50:11 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-145.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.145] helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CAXcY-0002Do-00; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:43:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923082919.02210158@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:36:24 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Checking of boilerplate for Internet-Drafts In-Reply-To: <414F132A.4070908@levkowetz.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Hi Henrik: Thank you so much for offering the use of your I-D Nits checking tool to check I-D submissions for conformance with the new IPR boilerplate requirements. After reviewing the capabilities of the tool with the Secretariat staff who post I-Ds, as well as with the Secretariat tools developers, we have come to the conclusion that the tool does not meet our needs at this time. First of all, the tool does not check most of the items on the Secretariat's I-D submission checklist. Secondly, the boilerplate checks performed by the tool are not consistent with the instructions that the Secretariat has received from the IESG for checking IPR boilerplate. Finally, since IETF procedures and requirements change quite frequently, the Secretariat really needs its internal tools to run on Secretariat servers so that we can tailor them to our explicit needs and maintain and update them rapidly when needed. The Secretariat is close to finishing an I-D checking tool (for internal use only) that will match our current requirements. However, we truly appreciate your suggestions for tools that would assist us in doing our job, and we thank you once again for your offer. Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 07:28 PM 9/20/2004 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Barbara, > > With this announcement out, I wonder if you would be interested in >trying out the idnits tool I'm maintaining, in order to check the >boilerplate conformance - http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/ > >Currently the idnits tool checks most of the requirements of the ID-checklist; >you could use it as it is, but you would get comments not only about >boilerplate conformance, but also also regarding other nits which are not >relevant for regular I-D submissions. > >However, I already have as the next item on the to-do list for this tool >to add a mode where it is only reporting errors for missing boilerplate, >not for all the nits in ID-checklist.html; I could try to do this soon, >if it would be of interest to you. > >Let me know what you think, > > Henrik > > > >Harald Alvestrand wrote: >>Hello, >>A bit before the August IETF, we announced that it was time to use the >>new boilerplate from RFC 3667 in internet-drafts, and instructed the >>secretariat to heck that boilerplate. >>Due to some confusion, and the impending meeting, we asked them to stop >>checking >>after a while. >>But we have to move on.... it is now almost a year since RFC 3667 was >>published, and the legal issues that the document was set to address ARE >>important to the continued operation of the IETF. >>I have therefore instructed the secretariat to check some items of the >>boilerplate again, starting from September 28, 2004. >>On the particular issue of the boilerplate that got changed between RFC >>3667 and the "fixed" draft-ietf-ipr-subm-rights-fix, I have asked them to >>check that statement is present, and that it contains words that >>indicate that it was intended to be a conformant boilerplate - we will >>make those instructions tighter once draft-ietf-ipr-subm-rights-fix is >>published, but not now. >>Instructions for making conformant drafts can be found at the usual URL: >>http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt >>Pay particular attention to the section "Notices required in >>internet-drafts". >>(Note: Any recent version of xml2rfc should be compatible with these >>rules, provided you use the "rfc ipr=full3667" directive) >>If the secretariat finds a violation of the rules, the secretariat is to >>return >>the wording of the violated rule to the submitter; this should eliminate >>ambiguity about WHAT is wrong with a submission. >>With the hope of being able to go forward without worrying, >> Harald > >_______________________________________________ >Tools-team mailing list >Tools-team@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 14:38:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08783; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYax-0006cW-UN; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:45:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAYHc-0004yg-83; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:25:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAYEQ-0003jX-42 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:22:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07073 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAYLE-0006G6-MN for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:29:18 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id D199E37EAE; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2E037E42; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB2138005; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CAYDs-00062b-9L; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:21:40 +0200 Message-ID: <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:21:40 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > My understanding is that, besides satisfying IETF requirements, > Secretariat is free to do whatever they want as long as their actions do > not conflict with the requirements. But I am not sure why we are talking > about this because I have not proposed to prohibit something. So far, I > have only been asking to split addressing their requirements into > several tools/drafts. This is about individual draft scope rather than > prohibition. Ok. So this draft is about the I-D submission tool. Either one of the following two alternatives is OK with me: 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and leave the internal secretariat requirements out of it, and say so explicitly. 2. Include the internal secretariat requirements unabridged, possibly advising that some of them might be as well or better served by an alternative implementation. What I don't think is OK, is to include some of them and exclude some of them, based on what our viewpoint is on how they should do their job - especially as it seems we (well, at least you and I) don't have a common viewpoint on that. About one or multiple drafts: I understood you as advocating a different tool, with a different draft, for some of the secretariat requirements - I've attempted to cover that question above. If on the other hand you are now advocating splitting the requirements on this one tool into multiple drafts, that is a quite different question, which we'll go into if that is your proposal. Finally, if you are proposing that there are *other* aspects of draft handling, which are not covered by secretariat requirements, and not covered by community requirements on the ID-submission tool, then I think we might be in agreement - but that also means we have to consider in what order to go into those aspects, compared to other proposed tools and requirements. I suspect that if this is what you are proposing, then some of the issues could be very basic, and it would be of great benefit to lay them out early, while other might have to wait. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 15:50:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15592; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZiK-00087b-2n; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:57:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAZZ5-0007tV-R9; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:47:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAZXF-00072V-0U for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:45:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15260 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAZe3-000839-VT for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:52:49 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8NJjbwN064833; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:45:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8NJjb1g064832; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:45:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:45:37 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Ok. So this draft is about the I-D submission tool. Either one of the > following two alternatives is OK with me: > > 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and > leave the internal secretariat requirements out of it, and say > so explicitly. > > 2. Include the internal secretariat requirements unabridged, possibly > advising that some of them might be as well or better served by > an alternative implementation. Neither sounds right to me, for different reasons (which I can detail if you want). How about this instead: 1a. In the ID Submission draft, describe draft submission requirements and interfaces from our viewpoint, while doing our best to reflect corresponding IETF and Secretariat viewpoints. Tell Secretariat explicitly which of their known requirements (if any) the ID Submission draft does not address. Let's try to agree on the ID Submission draft scope and then try to resolve issues with other drafts. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 23 16:37:29 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21182; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAaSC-0001aG-0F; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:44:37 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAaCh-0005gT-Ar; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:28:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAa4j-0000zn-Bi for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:20:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19793 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAaBZ-0001AU-RD for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:27:27 -0400 Received: by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E8FDA37EDA; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C282337EA3; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9163800D; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAa4B-0002MX-00; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:47 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:46 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts Message-Id: <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Thursday, 23 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > Ok. So this draft is about the I-D submission tool. Either one of the > > following two alternatives is OK with me: > > > > 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and > > leave the internal secretariat requirements out of it, and say > > so explicitly. > > > > 2. Include the internal secretariat requirements unabridged, possibly > > advising that some of them might be as well or better served by > > an alternative implementation. > > Neither sounds right to me, for different reasons (which I can detail > if you want). How about this instead: > > 1a. In the ID Submission draft, describe draft submission requirements and > interfaces from our viewpoint, while doing our best to reflect > corresponding IETF and Secretariat viewpoints. Tell Secretariat > explicitly which of their known requirements (if any) the ID Submission > draft does not address. I'm still very worried that this will lead us into debating points which are internal secretariat issues, where we will churn a lot - partly because we individually have insufficient knowledge and quite different understanding of how things function internally in the secretariat. I think we can express the community requirements quite succinctly, and I would prefer that we do just that if the alternative is to have long discussions about the appropriateness of certain internal secretariat requirements, which seems to be where we would be headed otherwise. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 24 01:38:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25958; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAitt-0002GU-Rk; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:45:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAilw-00074v-Ff; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:37:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAige-0006Gp-H9 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:32:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25505 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAina-000272-9b for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:39:14 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8O5W10U019605; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:32:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8O5W0fa019604; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:32:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:32:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > I'm still very worried that this will lead us into debating points > which are internal secretariat issues, where we will churn a lot - > partly because we individually have insufficient knowledge and quite > different understanding of how things function internally in the > secretariat. > > I think we can express the community requirements quite succinctly, > and I would prefer that we do just that if the alternative is to > have long discussions about the appropriateness of certain internal > secretariat requirements, which seems to be where we would be headed > otherwise. I do not want any long discussions about internal Secretariat requirements. As I may have said elsewhere, I do not think we should care about Secretariat _internals_ much. However, many draft rendering and manipulation requirements sent to us by Secretariat are not internal to Secretariat: many affect community as much as Secretariat. For example, having access to latest draft version, XML draft sources, draft meta-data, and diffs is in direct community interest (and is a part of the draft rendering/access interface we should define). Thus, I suggest that we keep doing what you think we have been doing so far -- expressing the community requirements. I will continue to make sure that external Secretariat requirements (if any) are expressed as well. If you ever get a feeling that we are debating an internal Secretariat issue, please raise a red flag, and we will decide wether that issue is internal or external before continuing with the debate. I believe we will not see too many red flags, but if we do, we can come back to this discussion and revise the agreement. I think we share the desire to avoid discussing Secretariat internals. Would this simple solve-problems-as-they-arise procedure work for you? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 24 05:17:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23122; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAmK0-0005tF-VG; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:24:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAmBq-00044O-LE; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:16:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAmAT-0003gi-Gw for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:15:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23011 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAmHR-0005qd-2w for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:22:17 -0400 Received: by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DBB3B37EDE; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av5-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA437E4A; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40A43800D; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CAm9w-00083m-00; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:14:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:14:31 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts Message-Id: <20040924111431.5f1a4f44@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Thursday, 23 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > I'm still very worried that this will lead us into debating points > > which are internal secretariat issues, where we will churn a lot - > > partly because we individually have insufficient knowledge and quite > > different understanding of how things function internally in the > > secretariat. > > > > I think we can express the community requirements quite succinctly, > > and I would prefer that we do just that if the alternative is to > > have long discussions about the appropriateness of certain internal > > secretariat requirements, which seems to be where we would be headed > > otherwise. > > I do not want any long discussions about internal Secretariat > requirements. As I may have said elsewhere, I do not think we should > care about Secretariat _internals_ much. However, many draft rendering > and manipulation requirements sent to us by Secretariat are not > internal to Secretariat: many affect community as much as Secretariat. > For example, having access to latest draft version, XML draft sources, > draft meta-data, and diffs is in direct community interest (and is a > part of the draft rendering/access interface we should define). Ok. > Thus, I suggest that we keep doing what you think we have been doing > so far -- expressing the community requirements. You're mistaken in your assumption of what I think we have been doing. Please leave it to me to express what I think. I think we have been merging secretariat and community requirements into one draft, and I see us being in danger of ratholing on it. > I will continue to > make sure that external Secretariat requirements (if any) are > expressed as well. Let's clear the current issue up first, please. > If you ever get a feeling that we are debating an internal Secretariat > issue, please raise a red flag, and we will decide wether that issue > is internal or external before continuing with the debate. I believe > we will not see too many red flags, but if we do, we can come back to > this discussion and revise the agreement. Ok. > I think we share the desire to avoid discussing Secretariat internals. Good. > Would this simple solve-problems-as-they-arise procedure work for you? No, I think we right now have a problem which we still haven't solved, and we should deal with it now, rather than push it in front of us. And please, remember - the secretariat needs this tool yesterday. * I would like to have one draft from the tools team which deals with the requirements for the I-D submission tool. * Proposed *changes* to availability of drafts, XML sources, meta-data etc. to go in a different draft - these are not I-D submission tool issues, and as they are changes, they require both buy-in from the IETF community and leadership, and prioritisation versus other tools. * The I-D submission tool draft uses one of the approaches mentioned before (since we seem to be in danger of ratholing on merging requirements - I have no basic preference for these over the merging approach): 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and leave the requirements received from the secretariat out of it, and say so explicitly. 2. Include the requirements received from the secretariat unabridged, possibly advising that some of them might be as well or better served by an alternative implementation. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 24 11:50:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19605; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAsRn-0004Aw-Tw; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:57:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAsE6-0007xj-T3; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:43:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CAs7R-0007AI-V2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:36:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18931 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CAsER-0003yJ-Um for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:43:37 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8OFaI0U040474; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:36:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8OFaH5i040469; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:36:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:36:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <20040924111431.5f1a4f44@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040924091004.A39163@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> <20040924111431.5f1a4f44@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > I think we have been merging secretariat and community requirements > into one draft, and I see us being in danger of ratholing on it. AFAICT, there are no requirements that are exclusive to Secretariat in the current draft. I certainly did not put any intentionally, and I was not going to start doing that. There are some requirements that community and Secretariat share, but, technically, we can still assert that the draft expresses community requirements and does not talk about Secretariat requirements. > And please, remember - the secretariat needs this tool yesterday. I thought you did not want to discuss internal Secretariat needs :-). IETF needs this tool yesterday, and this is one of the reasons to keep ID Submission draft scope tight. > * I would like to have one draft from the tools team which deals with > the requirements for the I-D submission tool. We have it now. It needs more work, of course, but I think the current scope is right. > * Proposed *changes* to availability of drafts, XML sources, meta-data > etc. to go in a different draft - these are not I-D submission tool > issues, and as they are changes, they require both buy-in from the > IETF community and leadership, and prioritisation versus other tools. I disagree that any feature should be scoped out just because it is not currently supported by Secretariat manual efforts. After all, the tool itself is a change. IMO, we should define the scope not based on what is a new or different compared to the current practice (most things are, in some sense). For example, if the tool accepts a few draft formats (because Secretariat already does), I think it is counter-productive not to accept XML sources as well. It buys you virtually nothing to scope XML sources out (as far as short-term documentation and implementation efforts are concerned). It may buy you a lot to include them (as far as IETF infrastructure needs are concerned). However, it is a good idea, IMO, to say that first versions of the tool can accept just plain text. There is a difference between draft scope and implementation priority. I agree that some changes, like draft archiving and diffs do not belong to the ID Submission draft. But not because they are changes. They do not belong because they have nothing to do with draft submission. They are about existing draft rendering and manipulation. That is why I have been arguing that they should not be included in the ID submission draft. I does not look like we disagree on that point. > * The I-D submission tool draft uses one of the approaches mentioned > before (since we seem to be in danger of ratholing on merging > requirements - I have no basic preference for these over the merging > approach): > > 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and > leave the requirements received from the secretariat out of it, > and say so explicitly. Question: What do we do with those IETF and Secretariat requirements that overlap? If we include them, you get my proposal 1a. If we exclude them, you get an incomplete specification. That is what I am trying to say in the last two e-mails or so. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 27 10:36:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03998; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBwk2-0007BM-Vy; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:44:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CBwSI-0004pv-Cn; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:26:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CBwNf-0003Zz-UR for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:21:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02393 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CBwVH-0006tE-TE for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:29:25 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B1E1B37E63; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB2337E45; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795CD37E42; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CBwN6-0005xq-00; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:20:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:20:56 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts Message-Id: <20040927162056.0fa40bb4@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040924091004.A39163@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> <20040924111431.5f1a4f44@chardonnay> <20040924091004.A39163@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Friday, 24 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > I think we have been merging secretariat and community requirements > > into one draft, and I see us being in danger of ratholing on it. > > AFAICT, there are no requirements that are exclusive to Secretariat in > the current draft. I certainly did not put any intentionally, and I > was not going to start doing that. There are some requirements that > community and Secretariat share, but, technically, we can still assert > that the draft expresses community requirements and does not talk > about Secretariat requirements. Ok, good. > > And please, remember - the secretariat needs this tool yesterday. > > I thought you did not want to discuss internal Secretariat needs :-). > IETF needs this tool yesterday, and this is one of the reasons to keep > ID Submission draft scope tight. > > > * I would like to have one draft from the tools team which deals with > > the requirements for the I-D submission tool. > > We have it now. It needs more work, of course, but I think the current > scope is right. > > > * Proposed *changes* to availability of drafts, XML sources, meta-data > > etc. to go in a different draft - these are not I-D submission tool > > issues, and as they are changes, they require both buy-in from the > > IETF community and leadership, and prioritisation versus other tools. > > I disagree that any feature should be scoped out just because it is > not currently supported by Secretariat manual efforts. After all, the > tool itself is a change. IMO, we should define the scope not based on > what is a new or different compared to the current practice (most > things are, in some sense). I'm not saying that any changes are out of scope, above. I'm talking of changes outside of the I-D submission tool needing buy-in and prioritisation. > For example, if the tool accepts a few draft formats (because > Secretariat already does), I think it is counter-productive not to > accept XML sources as well. It buys you virtually nothing to scope XML > sources out (as far as short-term documentation and implementation > efforts are concerned). It may buy you a lot to include them (as far > as IETF infrastructure needs are concerned). However, it is a good > idea, IMO, to say that first versions of the tool can accept just > plain text. There is a difference between draft scope and > implementation priority. > > I agree that some changes, like draft archiving and diffs do not > belong to the ID Submission draft. But not because they are changes. > They do not belong because they have nothing to do with draft > submission. They are about existing draft rendering and manipulation. > That is why I have been arguing that they should not be included in > the ID submission draft. I does not look like we disagree on that > point. Ok. > > * The I-D submission tool draft uses one of the approaches mentioned > > before (since we seem to be in danger of ratholing on merging > > requirements - I have no basic preference for these over the merging > > approach): > > > > 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and > > leave the requirements received from the secretariat out of it, > > and say so explicitly. > > Question: What do we do with those IETF and Secretariat requirements > that overlap? If we include them, you get my proposal 1a. If we > exclude them, you get an incomplete specification. That is what I am > trying to say in the last two e-mails or so. Ok. If they are indeed community requirements, they go in - that's the way I have been thinking about option 1 above, so it seems we may be in agreement. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 27 12:59:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12770; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CByxy-0001HP-IX; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:07:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CByh4-0006qe-4I; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:49:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CByZg-0005Dv-6Z for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:42:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11699 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CByhJ-0000vG-C0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:49:58 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8RGfwJ2034293; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8RGfwQR034292; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:41:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: Agenda item: rendering of drafts In-Reply-To: <20040927162056.0fa40bb4@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20040927103841.G45860@measurement-factory.com> References: <20040922191333.6f1e476f@chardonnay> <20040922111535.G92494@measurement-factory.com> <4151E6ED.3010902@levkowetz.com> <20040922152947.A92494@measurement-factory.com> <415201E6.30505@levkowetz.com> <20040922165816.T92494@measurement-factory.com> <41528668.50104@levkowetz.com> <20040923061411.B45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923150848.4dd5b117@chardonnay> <20040923110247.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <41531434.8000206@levkowetz.com> <20040923133254.Y45317@measurement-factory.com> <20040923221946.65dff671@chardonnay> <20040923231404.T12287@measurement-factory.com> <20040924111431.5f1a4f44@chardonnay> <20040924091004.A39163@measurement-factory.com> <20040927162056.0fa40bb4@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> 1. Describe the requirements from the IETF community viewpoint, and >>> leave the requirements received from the secretariat out of it, >>> and say so explicitly. >> >> Question: What do we do with those IETF and Secretariat >> requirements that overlap? If we include them, you get my proposal >> 1a. If we exclude them, you get an incomplete specification. That >> is what I am trying to say in the last two e-mails or so. > > Ok. If they are indeed community requirements, they go in - that's > the way I have been thinking about option 1 above, so it seems we > may be in agreement. Great. I will resolve a few XXXs in the ID Submission draft accordingly. Does anybody want to start an "ID Access/Rendering" draft? If there are no volunteers, I can start a draft or at least a wiki page to move corresponding requirements from ID Submission draft notes to that new draft/page. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 27 14:34:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19121; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC0S1-00033V-Kw; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:42:18 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC0B1-0002mO-9i; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:24:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC06H-0001ka-9G for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:19:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18179 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC0Dv-0002mq-7M for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:27:45 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B9D2537FA7; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:19:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAA537F98 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:19:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8532A37E42 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:19:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CC05j-0004u9-9G for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:19:15 +0200 Message-ID: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:19:19 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020000070706060200000501" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c Subject: [Tools-team] [Fwd: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?] X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020000070706060200000501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got the message below from Lisa Dussault. Will be interesting to see how this compares with Bill's plone based site. Henrik --------------020000070706060200000501 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?" X-Account-Key: account1 Return-path: Envelope-to: henrik@levkowetz.com Delivery-date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:44:54 +0200 Received: from kahuna.osafoundation.org ([204.152.186.98]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CBzYS-0004GT-GP for henrik@levkowetz.com; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:44:54 +0200 X-Envelope-From: lisa@osafoundation.org X-Envelope-To: henrik@levkowetz.com Received: from [192.168.101.178] (w002.z065106067.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [65.106.67.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by kahuna.osafoundation.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i8RHicBm008899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:44:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20040911000242.5350d639@chardonnay> References: <20040911000242.5350d639@chardonnay> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org From: Lisa Dusseault Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:44:29 -0700 To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 204.152.186.98 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: lisa@osafoundation.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Subject: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions? X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1 (built Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:06:07 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on shiraz.levkowetz.com) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on shiraz.levkowetz.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=2.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.64 X-UID: 6779 X-Keywords: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been working on a software tool for the IETF to improve collaboration (particularly within WGs) and more ad-hoc publication processes, and I think it's now ready to unveil. The site is . It's a WebDAV server, so any path on the server, e.g. offers support for WebDAV methods. The only exception is the path , which is the path to a Web-based GUI that allows access to both the basic WebDAV functionality and some advanced, non-standard features offered by the server software. The server software is Xythos WebFile Server, provided free for this site by Xythos Software, Inc. . The software supports RFC2518 (WebDAV) including locking, RFC3253 (versioning), RFC3744 (access control) and more. The site hosting is free from UCSC. (The machine hardware was purchased by me, so I'd be happy to take donations until that cost is somewhat defrayed.) Currently I'm managing site administration, which means I am setting up accounts and creating directories. I am happy to create accounts and directories for WG chairs, editors, secretaries, and other IETF-related work efforts. What can you do with a directory and some accounts on this server??? - In the http://ietf.cse.ucsc.edu/caldav directory, I and my co-authors alternately work on a draft -- one of us can lock it and edit it and post changes back to the server. We turned versioning on so we can see who changed it, and when, and download different versions to compare them (e.g. do a diff). - Publish presentations before or after meetings, get comments on them (check out the comments feature on the file's information page) - Keep your own archive of supporting material (e.g. meeting notes). - Maintain simple issues lists (e.g. in a spreadsheet) and delegate editing the issues list - Store and make public (or private) interop results, test suites, etc - Probably much more, but I'm not going to exhaustively list it. Thanks to Marshall Rose, Jim Whitehead and Sung Kim for their help getting this project off the ground. Comments welcome. Lisa On Sep 10, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > (This is a copy of a posting made to the ietf@ietf.org mailing list > - I think that wgchairs may have particularly interesting tool > suggestions, so don't want you to miss it :-) /Henrik) > > > IETFers, > > Do you have ideas for software tools that would make your IETF work > easier? Do you have feedback about current IETF automation efforts? > > As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations and structure, > a Tools team has been chartered to develop requirements for additional > and revised electronic tools to aid in the IETF operations. > > The charter of the Tools team (found at the IETF Tools web site, > http://tools.ietf.org/) focuses initially on tools to improve the > interface between IETF administration and the broader community; but > will also look at tools to aid in the operation of individual working > groups and the tasks of standards development. > > The Tools team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general comments, > to be refined into a series of tool specifications. Tool > specifications > will then be used to implement or adopt software for IETF. > > The first item on Tools team list is the automation of draft submission > to allow for quick and painless validation and posting of > Internet-Drafts. > The first document describing the new draft submission tool is > available at: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission > -00.txt > > What should we work on next? Please visit the list of possible future > tools and send us additions as well as priority preferences: > http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolSuggestions > > Please send all Tools-related feedback to tools-discuss@ietf.org, a > newly formed mailing list; do this also if you add information to the > wiki pages. Subscription instructions: > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > -------- > > The members of the tools team are: > > * Alex Rousskov > * Bill Fenner > * Larry Masinter > * Stanislav Shalunov > * Henrik Levkowetz (chair) > > Schedule: > > The group will initially focus on additional tools for use in the > interface between the IETF administration and the broader IETF > community. The first draft of a set of requirements for an > Internet-Drafts Submission Tool has been posted, and feedback is > welcome. > > Other administrative tools are expected to be specified over the next > six months. We will put together a list and priority schedule within > that time frame. > > The Tools team may also conduct polls within the community for input > on > priorities, requirements, and feedback on currently deployed tools. > > After the initial focus on administrative tools, the group will turn > its attention to tools of use for aiding working groups, authors and > other parts of the IETF community. > > -------- > > Regards, > > Henrik > --------------020000070706060200000501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --------------020000070706060200000501-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 27 15:43:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25739; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC1Wc-0004PR-VI; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:51:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC1LF-0004NE-Tl; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:39:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC1Dh-0001Ji-N0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:31:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24949 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC1LM-0004Ay-O3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:39:30 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8RJVUJ2042186; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:31:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8RJVUaJ042185; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:31:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:31:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] [Fwd: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?] In-Reply-To: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040927131803.A45860@measurement-factory.com> References: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Got the message below from Lisa Dussault. Will be interesting to see > how this compares with Bill's plone based site. It looks like Lisa hosts and makes Xythos WFS software available to IETF WGS. The software seems to allow basic file manipulation and file comments. In other words, you get a directory of files that you can manage (rather than a collection of web pages). Files can contain HTML, of course. My understanding is that with Plone one can do a lot more Web- and IETF-specific customizations. One can build web sites for WGs, for example. However, basic actions like providing a list of editable files would take more effort with Plone. So, it looks like these two tools operate on a different level. Xythos software is for managing individual files and directories. Plone is for managing web sites. Correct me if I am wrong, but Xythos seems to lack support for concurrent document changes (multiple authors changing a single document) and related conflict resolution schemes. These are common in software world, and I personally find it very useful for co-authoring drafts. Does Plone have any plugins for that? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 27 15:53:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26524; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC1gi-0004l6-U8; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:01:33 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC1X3-0000IU-MD; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:51:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CC1Qg-0006Bk-Qo for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:44:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25936 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CC1YM-0004QF-38 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:52:55 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5269537E8F; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:44:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450FD37E48; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:44:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F03437E45; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:44:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CC1QA-0003Ol-1S; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:44:26 +0200 Message-ID: <41586D98.8010604@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:44:24 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] [Fwd: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?] References: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> <20040927131803.A45860@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20040927131803.A45860@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > It looks like Lisa hosts and makes Xythos WFS software available to IETF > WGS. The software seems to allow basic file manipulation and file > comments. In other words, you get a directory of files that you can > manage (rather than a collection of web pages). Files can contain HTML, > of course. > > My understanding is that with Plone one can do a lot more Web- and > IETF-specific customizations. One can build web sites for WGs, for > example. However, basic actions like providing a list of editable files > would take more effort with Plone. Maybe Bill can tell us? I was also thinking that the plone site apparently provides WebDAV functionality too - and the impression I got from the xythos site was that you had to do download/upload in order to do changes, with no more sophisticated method supported through the web interface. > > So, it looks like these two tools operate on a different level. Xythos > software is for managing individual files and directories. Plone is for > managing web sites. > > Correct me if I am wrong, but Xythos seems to lack support for > concurrent document changes (multiple authors changing a single > document) and related conflict resolution schemes. These are common in > software world, and I personally find it very useful for co-authoring > drafts. Does Plone have any plugins for that? If so, that would be clearly interesting. I agree on the apparent Xythos capability here. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 28 09:13:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA20551; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCHvS-00012a-3t; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:21:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCHgG-0004bx-S0; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:06:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCHbG-0003E1-VN for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:00:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19567 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCHj6-0000ip-JL for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:09:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6B561A93; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:00:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22792-06; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:00:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3142F61BB5; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:00:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:34:50 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Henrik Levkowetz , IETF TOOLS Subject: Re: [Tools-team] [Fwd: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?] Message-ID: <4763ACA715DAAA4560181F86@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> References: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one nice thing about the webdav site is that I can view it as a file system in konqueror by putting webdav: rather than http: into the URL..... there's also supposed to be a "webdav" Linux file system type..... --On 27. september 2004 20:19 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Got the message below from Lisa Dussault. Will be interesting to see > how this compares with Bill's plone based site. > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 10:08:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06093; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCfFl-0007Og-2v; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:16:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCeoH-0004eo-PK; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:47:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCeif-00030H-VR for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:42:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02954 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCeqi-0006hh-Dr for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:50:28 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E0E6D37E6D; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:41:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37BE37E51 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:41:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C647337E4B for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:41:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCei8-0004sZ-Kx for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:41:36 +0200 Message-ID: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:41:32 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Below is a first proposal at a list of tools for the team to work at. I suggest we bash it about a bit internally, but not too long, and then send it to the ietf, wgchairs (and iesg?) lists for comments. Tool Users ---------------------------------------------- ----------- WG Status update web interface Secretariat XML publication of IETF Meta-information Tool Builders WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat WG page components, provided to all WGs: * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs * Wiki WGs, Chairs * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 10:19:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07449; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCfRL-0007dv-A8; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:28:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCf8K-0002vB-HF; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:08:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCetk-0005YH-MO for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:53:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04547 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCf1m-00077M-Op for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:01:56 -0400 Received: by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 0575637E79; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:53:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2BB37E45 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:53:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D024D38013 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:53:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CCetD-0003EN-00 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:53:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:53:00 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040929155300.2fd3dcb9@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 29 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. I'd like us to try to make the meeting short today - can we keep it down to 30 minutes? --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up 4. Tool priority list 5. Action item review. * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content More would be good * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data Not done * Alex: Continue polishing and filling out the spec, new version in 1 week? Done ? Larry: Assist Carl on the workflow mapping ? ? 6. Any other business. 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 6 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 12:03:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15230; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCh3P-0001Ox-6x; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:11:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCgmX-0001Ta-8S; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:54:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCgY4-0006Qe-G3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:39:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12938 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCgg8-0000nx-CI for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:47:40 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TFdIJ2046351; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:39:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8TFdIie046350; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:39:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:39:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list In-Reply-To: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040929092556.R44764@measurement-factory.com> References: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Tool Users > ---------------------------------------------- ----------- > WG Status update web interface Secretariat Henrik, Could you point me to details about this one? I am not sure what it is. WG ticket tracking by Secretariat? > XML publication of IETF Meta-information Tool Builders Do you mean things like draft and RFC meta-info? And/or info about IETF Actors, events, etc.? If yes, I would expand that to include rendering of that information as well. That is, in addition to providing raw XML for automated consumption, render that info for human consumption (in some cases that is already supported). I would also include "Draft status page" here (perhaps as a separate item) instead of below, because virtually the same tools/interfaces would apply to WG and individual drafts, and we have lots of individual drafts. > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat > WG page components, provided to all WGs: > > * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs Yes, but I would make it non-WG specific (see above). > * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs Do you mean integrating issue tracking and mailing lists? What does that mean? Auto-copying certain e-mails to WG issue tracker? > * Wiki WGs, Chairs > * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs > * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs > Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees > I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors > Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs > RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders I would also add "proposed WG" support tools (web and mailing list space for BoFs, proposed charters, formation discussions, etc). I would suggest placing it after or before the last item. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 13:03:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19340; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CChzE-0002cj-0P; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:11:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CChYp-0004qp-10; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:44:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CChUE-0003RN-Lo for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:39:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17964 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CChcG-00029X-2w for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:47:47 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8TGdLJ2048469; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:39:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8TGdLM0048468; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:39:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:39:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list In-Reply-To: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040929103001.P44764@measurement-factory.com> References: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Henrik, I would like to add an "Inform me when Foo happens" tool/interface, including support for "inform me when this draft changes" and "inform me when this WG charter/drafts change" features. I would put it after "WG page components" item. Thanks, Alex. On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, > > Below is a first proposal at a list of tools for the team to work > at. I suggest we bash it about a bit internally, but not too long, > and then send it to the ietf, wgchairs (and iesg?) lists for comments. > > > Tool Users > ---------------------------------------------- ----------- > WG Status update web interface Secretariat > XML publication of IETF Meta-information Tool Builders > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat > WG page components, provided to all WGs: > * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs > * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs > * Wiki WGs, Chairs > * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs > * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs > Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees > I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors > Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs > RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 13:05:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19513; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCi1e-0002gP-Dn; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:14:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CChkg-00073z-Ge; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:56:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CChXN-0004Mw-3W for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:42:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18199 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CChfR-0002DW-Br for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:51:02 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 027AD37E67; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E702D37E4F for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1F837E54 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CChWW-0003nt-00 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:41:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:41:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040929184147.3959e2f9@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 29 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing No comments 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? Alex: Should resolve outstanding issues, or ask for comments now Larry: Better to have a proposal than a blank sheet * Team to comment within a couple of days, maybe take -03 to last call. 4. Tool priority list Larry: Split second item into xml and infrastructure. Alex: One added suggestion, will send that to the list We should make it clear that some items can be done in parallel. 5. Action item review. * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content More would be good * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data Not done * Alex: Continue polishing and filling out the spec, new version in 1 week? Done ? Larry: Assist Carl on the workflow mapping ? ? 6. Any other business. None 7. Action items for next week: * Stas, Larry, Henrik: Review the -02 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. * Alex: New version with outstanding issues resolved to be out by Monday next week * All: Comments on priority list * Henrik: When priority list seems firm, send it to Harald, IESG, and chairs (in that order) for comments. * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data * Larry: Ready to assist Carl on the workflow mapping 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 6 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 13:17:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20346; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCiDU-0002uk-2f; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:26:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCho2-0008IW-77; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:59:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CChY0-0004i7-QH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:43:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18227 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CChg5-0002Eg-9X for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:51:41 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4AC3B37E86; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3927D37E61 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1046537E53 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CChXO-0003pK-00 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:42 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:42 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-Id: <20040929184242.43d70dae@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 29 Sep 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, ... did it again, sent with the wrong subject... so: Here are the minutes from today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing No comments 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? Alex: Should resolve outstanding issues, or ask for comments now Larry: Better to have a proposal than a blank sheet * Team to comment within a couple of days, maybe take -03 to last call. 4. Tool priority list Larry: Split second item into xml and infrastructure. Alex: One added suggestion, will send that to the list We should make it clear that some items can be done in parallel. 5. Action item review. * All: give feedback on http://tools.ietf.org/ - design and content More would be good * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data Not done * Alex: Continue polishing and filling out the spec, new version in 1 week? Done ? Larry: Assist Carl on the workflow mapping ? ? 6. Any other business. None 7. Action items for next week: * Stas, Larry, Henrik: Review the -02 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. * Alex: New version with outstanding issues resolved to be out by Monday next week * All: Comments on priority list * Henrik: When priority list seems firm, send it to Harald, IESG, and chairs (in that order) for comments. * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data * Larry: Ready to assist Carl on the workflow mapping 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 6 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 14:17:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25087; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCj9X-0004C5-EG; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:26:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCix9-0007PO-Jl; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:13:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCihF-0001SV-CQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:56:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23362 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCipJ-0003nF-Nk for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:05:18 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.62] (helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CCihD-0000ki-00; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:56:55 -0400 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:50:59 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: Michael Lee , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Hi Henrik: Below are some in-line comments from the Secretariat on the priority list. Barbara ------------------------------------------------------------------------ At 09:41 AM 9/29/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Tool Users > ---------------------------------------------- ----------- > WG Status update web interface Secretariat We are not sure what you mean by a "WG Status update" Web interface. However, FYI, the Secretariat already has an internal Web interface to its database for updating WG information, including general information and charter information. Before the TOOLS Team was formed, we had planned to develop a related Web interface for the WG Chairs, so that they could update their information directly (and obtain AD approval where required). The Secretariat also maintains a Web page for use by the IESG that summarizes the status of WGs under IESG review, that is, WGs that are in the process of being created or rechartered. > XML publication of IETF Meta-information Tool Builders We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of the Secretariat. > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat If the "WG Meeting scheduler" is a tool for scheduling WG sessions at IETF Meetings, then the tool was also planned by the Secretariat development projects prior to creation of the TOOLS Team. However, we had envisioned an "interactive" tool that would be used by the WG Chairs as well as by the Secretariat. > WG page components, provided to all WGs: > * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs > * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs > * Wiki WGs, Chairs > * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs > * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of the Secretariat. > Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees "Html-ized WG agendas" might be a feature of the "WG Meeting scheduler" mentioned above. > I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors If we understand correctly, the purpose of this tool is to enable the WG Chairs to shepherd documents through the IESG review process. In that case, the tool would be used by Secretariat as well as by the WG Chairs. We are not sure how authors would use the tool. > Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs The "publication request tool" must be available to independent submitters as well as to WG Chairs. According to current procedures, the IESG reviews documents from independent submitters when the documents are on the standards track or are BCP. From the Secretariat's perspective, combining the ability to submit an I-D and request publication in one tool would be desirable. > RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of the Secretariat. ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 15:13:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00419; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCk1X-0005Xe-5z; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:21:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCjbI-00081E-KW; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:54:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCjVD-0005cA-O5 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:48:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28050 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCjdI-0004vz-81 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:56:57 -0400 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4077CA7B01; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id i8TIm0e29849; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200409291848.i8TIm0e29849@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: harald@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: [Tools-team] [Fwd: Re: Software tools for IETF -- suggestions?] References: <415859A7.1090505@levkowetz.com> <4763ACA715DAAA4560181F86@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:47:56 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d This is true of the plone site too; webdav://rtg.ietf.org:1980/RoutingArea/ (or webdavs://rtg.ietf.org:1981/RoutingArea/) gives you an access-controlled view of the site; wg chairs can edit files under /wg/; ADs can edit files in the whole site; users can edit files in /Members/. MacOS X has a davfs (that's how the iDisk works), so I use this along with cadaver. With plone, you're editing the file behind the content; with Lisa's site, you're editing the content - this lets plone do stuff like the wiki-like "structured text" formatting for the "real site". I've added an email gateway to my site; email to a certain address is added as a new news item with "requested to publish" state, so I can easily forward messages from ietf-announce. I've also added an RSS feed of news, http://rtg.ietf.org/allnews/RSSTopic . So far, I haven't found a versioning product for plone. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 29 18:44:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26730; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCnJV-0004q1-Su; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:52:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCmcy-0001CM-QU; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:08:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CCm4R-0000XC-Se for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:33:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18880 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CCmCY-0002q7-Pi for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:41:31 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7119A37EEA; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6125337E49; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7A37E51; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CCm3u-0005AZ-Kj; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:34 +0200 Message-ID: <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:18 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Michael Lee , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Henrik: > > Below are some in-line comments from the Secretariat on the priority list. > > Barbara > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > At 09:41 AM 9/29/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Tool Users >> ---------------------------------------------- >> ----------- >> WG Status update web interface Secretariat > > > We are not sure what you mean by a "WG Status update" Web interface. > However, FYI, the Secretariat already has an internal Web interface to > its database for updating WG information, including general information > and charter information. Before the TOOLS Team was formed, we had > planned to develop a related Web interface for the WG Chairs, so that > they could update their information directly (and obtain AD approval > where required). Yes, this was what I was thinking of here. Is that still appropriate? > The Secretariat also maintains a Web page for use by the IESG that > summarizes the status of WGs under IESG review, that is, WGs that are in > the process of being created or rechartered. > >> XML publication of IETF Meta-information Tool Builders > > > We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of > the Secretariat. This would involve the secretariat, in making meta-information for e.g. drafts, authors, work-groups, chairs, ADs, etc. available in an XML format. Hopefully this could be built up gradually as an effect of improved tools; but as I feel this is a new request, and a new task, I'd rather propose it as an item separate from e.g. the I-D submission tool, to get viewpoints and hopefully buy-in from all involved parties. > >> WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat > > > If the "WG Meeting scheduler" is a tool for scheduling WG sessions at > IETF Meetings, then the tool was also planned by the Secretariat > development projects prior to creation of the TOOLS Team. However, we > had envisioned an "interactive" tool that would be used by the WG Chairs > as well as by the Secretariat. Yes, that was the thought here, too. I should have added chairs as users here. Will fix... :-) >> WG page components, provided to all WGs: >> * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs >> * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs >> * Wiki WGs, Chairs >> * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs >> * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs > > > We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of > the Secretariat. Not related, except that it will have to be hosted somewhere. For now I'd be happy to host the component parts and eventually the whole tool on my server, but I don't think that's appropriate in the long run. >> Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees > > > "Html-ized WG agendas" might be a feature of the "WG Meeting scheduler" > mentioned above. Yes, that would make sense. >> I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors > > > If we understand correctly, the purpose of this tool is to enable the WG > Chairs to shepherd documents through the IESG review process. In that > case, the tool would be used by Secretariat as well as by the WG > Chairs. We are not sure how authors would use the tool. For authors, it would be a read-only information providing tool. I'll add the secretariat as user. >> Publication request tool Secretariat, >> Chairs > > > The "publication request tool" must be available to independent > submitters as well as to WG Chairs. According to current procedures, > the IESG reviews documents from independent submitters when the > documents are on the standards track or are BCP. Yes, good point. Will fix. > From the Secretariat's perspective, combining the ability to submit an > I-D and request publication in one tool would be desirable. Ok, so this could be a step II of the I-D submission tool, in that case. I don't know if it's better to combine or implement as separate things, but that will surely be considered by you in the implementation too. >> RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders > > > We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the work of > the Secretariat. This is a way to push out xml data regarding new information, be it IDs, RFCs, new Chairs or whatever. It should be a side product of other tools, hopefully; not a whole separate tool. Should not involve manual secretariat work, but will affect tools involved in updating repositories and could affect tools for updating WG charters etc. I hope this clarifies things a bit - if not, please indicate where more information might be needed :-) Best, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 30 12:53:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09203; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD4Jo-0004x2-Et; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:02:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD3tN-0007ns-Uw; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:34:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD3cp-00036c-UQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:17:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05330 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD3l6-0003oh-Lr; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:26:21 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i8UGHjJ2002822; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:17:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i8UGHiV1002821; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:17:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:17:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list In-Reply-To: <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20040930100945.O99411@measurement-factory.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: "Barbara B. Fuller" , Michael Lee , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > >>> WG page components, provided to all WGs: >>> * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs >>> * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs >>> * Wiki WGs, Chairs >>> * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs >>> * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs >> >> We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the >> work of the Secretariat. > > Not related, except that it will have to be hosted somewhere. Would somebody need to implement some of the components? For example, somebody would need to write and/or maintain (in addition to hosting) software that generates "draft status pages". Another example is helping IETFers with wiki customization, maintenance, upgrades, troubleshooting. In that sense, a component may be relevant to Secretariat, right? >> "Html-ized WG agendas" might be a feature of the "WG Meeting >> scheduler" mentioned above. > > Yes, that would make sense. I do not see much in common between scheduling a meeting and visualizing an agenda. Can you clarify why it makes sense to do both in one tool/interface? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 30 15:57:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24589; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD7CD-00017n-1O; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:06:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD6wt-000236-SF; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:50:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD6Zp-0007i8-9U for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:26:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22236 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD6i7-0000Ma-D9 for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:35:28 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.62] (helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CD6Zc-0003Y2-00; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:26:41 -0400 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040930151724.048f66c8@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:20:28 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list In-Reply-To: <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: Michael Lee , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Hi Henrik: At 05:32 PM 9/29/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> Tool Users >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>----------- >>> WG Status update web interface Secretariat >> >>We are not sure what you mean by a "WG Status update" Web interface. >>However, FYI, the Secretariat already has an internal Web interface to >>its database for updating WG information, including general information >>and charter information. Before the TOOLS Team was formed, we had >>planned to develop a related Web interface for the WG Chairs, so that >>they could update their information directly (and obtain AD approval >>where required). > >Yes, this was what I was thinking of here. Is that still appropriate? Yes indeed :-)) Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 30 18:34:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09990; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD9dJ-0005or-14; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:42:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD9Hu-0005Lp-MZ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:20:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CD93v-0005fv-6s for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:06:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06704 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CD9CE-0005Cz-8k for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:14:43 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E368037EE4; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:05:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FEE37E4A; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:05:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED4137E48; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:05:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CD93L-0001y8-00; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:05:31 +0200 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:05:31 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list Message-Id: <20041001000531.006c7ddc@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040930100945.O99411@measurement-factory.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> <20040930100945.O99411@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Barbara B. Fuller" , Michael Lee , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Thursday, 30 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > > > >>> WG page components, provided to all WGs: > >>> * Draft status page (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs > >>> * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs > >>> * Wiki WGs, Chairs > >>> * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs > >>> * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs > >> > >> We are not sure what this tool does, or if it is related to the > >> work of the Secretariat. > > > > Not related, except that it will have to be hosted somewhere. > > Would somebody need to implement some of the components? For example, > somebody would need to write and/or maintain (in addition to hosting) > software that generates "draft status pages". Another example is > helping IETFers with wiki customization, maintenance, upgrades, > troubleshooting. In that sense, a component may be relevant to > Secretariat, right? Yes, quite so, but it wouldn't have the secretariat as a user, which is what I tried to capture in the righthand column. > >> "Html-ized WG agendas" might be a feature of the "WG Meeting > >> scheduler" mentioned above. > > > > Yes, that would make sense. > > I do not see much in common between scheduling a meeting and > visualizing an agenda. Can you clarify why it makes sense to do both > in one tool/interface? The description of the WG Meeting scheduler also includes the function of giving WG chairs an interface used to submit agendas (see the link on the team wiki), and html-izing would then be a simple processing step for text format agendas submitted throught that interface. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team