From mailman-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 1 10:06:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01732 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CDOBs-00080A-CR for tools-team-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:15:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CDKBh-0006VT-L1 for tools-team-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 05:58:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: tools-team-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 05:22:40 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Mailman site list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. 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Passwords for tools-team-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-team@ietf.org fuuwuh https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-team/tools-team-archive%40ietf.org From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 1 15:16:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08790; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CDT1W-000058-NB; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:24:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CDSi3-00071K-8A; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:04:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CDSK5-0007En-Qs for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:40:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05612 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CDSSY-0007Bo-E7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:48:53 -0400 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878B9A7B02; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id i91IdUu07729; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200410011839.i91IdUu07729@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929135019.02abef10@colossus.foretec.com> <415B29E2.3070203@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:39:29 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 > RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders BTW, have you seen http://interglacial.com/rss/internet-drafts/ and http://interglacial.com/rss/rfc/ ? Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 4 20:04:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09554; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 20:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEcxd-0006Sa-1Z; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:13:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CEckm-0006i4-GG; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:00:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CEcdF-0005OU-5Z for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 19:52:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08851 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEcmP-0004Jt-3U for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:02:10 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8320C37E72; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:52:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7524537E42; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:52:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6778E37E43; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:52:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CEccg-0007jD-00; Tue, 05 Oct 2004 01:52:06 +0200 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:52:06 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] First try at a priority list Message-ID: <20041005015206.249af976@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20040929092556.R44764@measurement-factory.com> References: <415ABB8C.1050107@levkowetz.com> <20040929092556.R44764@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 29 Sep 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > > * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs > > Do you mean integrating issue tracking and mailing lists? What does > that mean? Auto-copying certain e-mails to WG issue tracker? I just found I hadn't answered this question - very briefly, I see this as the following (some of which is already functioning for the issue trackers which I run): * Any list mails with [issue NNN] in the subject is picked up, and added to issue NNN, optionally with elimination or abbreviation of quoted sections * New comments to the issue tracker, entered through the web interface, are sent to the list * Any list mails with [issue] in the subject line, and a set of keywords at the beginning, giving the information defined near the top of http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html, is entered as a new issue in the issue tracker (not yet implemented) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 4 20:11:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10394; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 20:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEd55-00083w-RA; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:21:28 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CEcon-0007Kc-8x; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:04:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CEcko-0006io-O8 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:00:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09327 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 20:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEcty-0005uN-R1 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:10:00 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E6F6537E63; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:59:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D344937E4F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:59:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C442838006 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:59:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CEckH-0007kQ-00 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2004 01:59:57 +0200 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 01:59:57 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041005015957.09c7cd58@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 2 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've overhauled the list of proposed tools, as shown below. If there is no further comments on the tools-team list, I will send this to more people tomorrow. Henrik Tool Users ---------------------------------------------- ----------- WG Status update web interface Secretariat IETF Meta-information: * XML Publication of Meta-information Tool Builders * HTML rendering of same, if not already Community available * Infrastructure, components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) Tool Builders, WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs, Authors WG page components, provided to all WGs: * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs * Wiki WGs, Chairs * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs Notification service - "mail me when this Community draft/charter changes" Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors, Secretariat Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs, Authors (Indep.) RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space Community _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 08:37:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19285; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFBCs-00075A-5h; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:47:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFB1U-00066F-0Z; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:36:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFB0f-0005vU-6b for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:35:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19025 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFBAA-0006tK-5M for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:44:58 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-102.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.102] helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CFB0e-0001hy-00; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:35:08 -0400 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006080721.02a6f048@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:29:39 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 2 In-Reply-To: <20041005015957.09c7cd58@chardonnay> References: <20041005015957.09c7cd58@chardonnay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Hi Henrik: At 07:59 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote: > Tool Users > ---------------------------------------------- ----------- > WG Status update web interface Secretariat As I mentioned in my previous message, the Secretariat already has an internal Web interface for updating WG information, including general information and charter information. The new interface that the Secretariat had envisioned is an interactive tool where WG Chairs can update their information directly. In your response to my message, you indicated that this was what you had envisioned too. Therefore, the WG Chairs should also be listed as users of this tool. > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat As I mentioned in my previous message, if the "WG Meeting scheduler" is a tool for scheduling WG sessions at IETF Meetings, then the tool that the Secretariat had envisioned is an interactive tool that would be used by the WG Chairs as well as by the Secretariat. In your response to my message, you indicated that this was what you had envisioned too, and that you would add the Chairs as users of this tool. I suggest that the WG Chairs be added as users of both of these tools. If the tools are to be used only by the Secretariat, then they are internal tools...one of which we already have :-) Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 09:44:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25765; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFCEx-0003Ds-TB; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:54:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFC00-0008DQ-Ik; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:38:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFBwZ-0007a3-Vv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:35:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24763 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFC61-0002Zl-St for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:44:49 -0400 Received: by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 060C337FBF; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:34:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA5137E82 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E1B37E56 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFBvx-0006oB-00 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:34:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:34:21 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've overhauled the list of proposed tools again, as shown below (thanks Barbara). If there is no further comments on the tools-team list, I will send this to more people tomorrow. Henrik Tool Users ---------------------------------------------- ----------- WG Status update web interface Secretariat, Chairs IETF Meta-information: * XML Publication of Meta-information Tool Builders * HTML rendering of same, if not already Community available * Infrastructure, components needed by multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) Tool Builders, WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat, Chairs Draft status pages (revs, diffs, comments) WGs, Chairs, Authors WG page components, provided to all WGs: * Issue tracker, mailing list integration WGs, Chairs * Wiki WGs, Chairs * Collaboration pages WGs, Chairs * List traffic summary WGs, Chairs Notification service - "mail me when this Community draft/charter changes" Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors, Secretariat Publication request tool Secretariat, Chairs, Authors (Indep.) RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders Proposed WG / Bof tools - web/wiki space Community _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 09:44:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25816; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFCFU-0003NO-Cu; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:54:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFC2k-0008Tv-6c; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:41:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFByR-0007yU-Vv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:36:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25199 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFC7v-0002nY-By for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:46:45 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 48CDF37F9F; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:36:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3962F37F64; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:36:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E57937E52; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:36:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFBxs-0006oW-00; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:36:20 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:36:20 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 2 Message-ID: <20041006153620.15a5d1b9@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006080721.02a6f048@colossus.foretec.com> References: <20041005015957.09c7cd58@chardonnay> <6.1.2.0.2.20041006080721.02a6f048@colossus.foretec.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, You're quite right, this was my mistake, a new version is out, and please accept my apologies for making you repeat yourself! :-) Regards, Henrik On Wednesday, 6 Oct 2004, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Henrik: > > At 07:59 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote: > > > Tool Users > > ---------------------------------------------- ----------- > > WG Status update web interface Secretariat > > As I mentioned in my previous message, the Secretariat already has an > internal Web interface for updating WG information, including general > information and charter information. The new interface that the > Secretariat had envisioned is an interactive tool where WG Chairs can > update their information directly. In your response to my message, you > indicated that this was what you had envisioned too. Therefore, the WG > Chairs should also be listed as users of this tool. > > > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat > > As I mentioned in my previous message, if the "WG Meeting scheduler" is a > tool for scheduling WG sessions at IETF Meetings, then the tool that the > Secretariat had envisioned is an interactive tool that would be used by the > WG Chairs as well as by the Secretariat. In your response to my message, > you indicated that this was what you had envisioned too, and that you would > add the Chairs as users of this tool. > > I suggest that the WG Chairs be added as users of both of these tools. If > the tools are to be used only by the Secretariat, then they are internal > tools...one of which we already have :-) > > Regards, > > Barbara > > ------------------------------------------------ > Barbara B. Fuller > Acting Executive Director > Internet Engineering Task Force > > Natick, Massachusetts Office: > > Phone: +1-508-650-4020 > Fax: +1-508-650-4639 > > Reston, Virginia Office: > > Phone: +1-703-620-9053 > Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 09:55:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27112; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFCPV-00047P-Ln; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:04:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFCDA-0002V1-Ll; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:52:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFC7t-0000yZ-O2 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:46:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25943 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFCHM-0003Op-90 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:56:30 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 79C1937E66; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:46:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6741837F12 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:46:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5151637E57 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:46:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFC7J-0006q1-00 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:46:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:45:58 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041006154558.13ef900e@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 6 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed Agenda for today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up -03 is out. Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? 4. Tool priority list 5. Action item review. * Stas, Larry, Henrik: Review the -02 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. Not done * Alex: New version with outstanding issues resolved to be out by Monday next week Done * All: Comments on priority list Done * Henrik: When priority list seems firm, send it to Harald, IESG, and chairs (in that order) for comments. Send to Harald so far * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data Done * (Larry: Ready to assist Carl on the workflow mapping) 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 13 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 12:28:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10510; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFEnl-0005XL-EH; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:38:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFEZA-0006qo-Il; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:23:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFERO-0004Sg-1i for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:14:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09741 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFEaq-0004jV-NJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:24:49 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i96GEqJ2017093; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:14:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i96GEqTR017092; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:14:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:14:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 In-Reply-To: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20041006100239.J13546@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > * Infrastructure, components needed by > multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) Tool Builders, There are two very different things mixed up here, IMO. I am not sure what the right terminology is, but let me try to describe them: 1) Information: information about IETF documents, participants, tasks, events. Most likely to stored in XML files and/or some kind of databases. We need to document what info is maintained/available. 2) Tools: TMDA, Plone, etc. Let's not mix the two. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 12:33:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10936; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFEso-0005vg-Bg; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:43:19 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFEgn-00081f-MB; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:30:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFEdk-0007SU-2g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:27:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10462 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFEnG-0005W7-Qd for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:37:35 -0400 Received: by av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 1679937EAA; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av5-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0715337E4C; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC61338004; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:27:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFEdD-0007Jn-00; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 18:27:11 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:27:08 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 Message-ID: <20041006182708.240baf38@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20041006100239.J13546@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> <20041006100239.J13546@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 6 Oct 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > * Infrastructure, components needed by > > multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) Tool Builders, > > There are two very different things mixed up here, IMO. I am not sure > what the right terminology is, but let me try to describe them: > > 1) Information: information about IETF documents, > participants, tasks, events. Most likely to stored in > XML files and/or some kind of databases. We need to > document what info is maintained/available. > > 2) Tools: TMDA, Plone, etc. > > Let's not mix the two. I agree. In my mind, I grouped your first item with the first bullet, XML publication of Meta-Information, but maybe we should be more explicit about that. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 12:46:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11682; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFF5k-0006h4-JT; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:56:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFEqy-00012L-P0; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:41:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFEmT-0000LH-Oi for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:36:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11111 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFEvz-000675-Iz for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:46:37 -0400 Received: by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 39A9D37E48; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:36:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av4-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACDF37E47 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:36:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1792638004 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:36:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFElw-0007LW-00 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 18:36:12 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:36:12 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041006183612.7662acdb@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes for 6 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing No comments 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. No comments 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up -03 is out. Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? Alex: Not ready, need -04 to be out. Will get this out by Friday. 4. Tool priority list We need to flesh out the item descriptions before they can be sent out more widely. ToDo: Start a wiki page with expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. 5. Action item review. * Stas, Larry, Henrik: Review the -02 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. Not done * Alex: New version with outstanding issues resolved to be out by Monday next week Done * All: Comments on priority list Done * Henrik: When priority list seems firm, send it to Harald, IESG, and chairs (in that order) for comments. Sent to Harald so far. First feedback from Harald is that we need to flesh out each item, to make them understandable. * Henrik: Automate the generation of tools pages based on xml data Half done. The tool produces pages, but the xml data is not in place. * (Larry: Ready to assist Carl on the workflow mapping) 6. Any other business. Put selection of next workitem, based on priority list feedback, on the agenda for next conf.call 7. Action items for next week: * All: Review the -03 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. Preferably by Saturday, but latest by Sunday this week. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 13 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 12:53:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12226; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFFCW-0007El-1B; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:03:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFF24-0003SD-NQ; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:52:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFF1G-0002vf-P3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:52:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12106 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 12:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFFAm-00071w-QB for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:01:54 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i96Gq0J2018804; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:52:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i96Gq0ad018803; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:52:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:52:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 In-Reply-To: <20041006182708.240baf38@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20041006103327.Q13546@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> <20041006100239.J13546@measurement-factory.com> <20041006182708.240baf38@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On Wednesday, 6 Oct 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: >> On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> >>> * Infrastructure, components needed by >>> multiple tools (e.g. TMDA? Plone? ) Tool Builders, >> >> There are two very different things mixed up here, IMO. I am not sure >> what the right terminology is, but let me try to describe them: >> >> 1) Information: information about IETF documents, >> participants, tasks, events. Most likely to stored in >> XML files and/or some kind of databases. We need to >> document what info is maintained/available. >> >> 2) Tools: TMDA, Plone, etc. >> >> Let's not mix the two. > > I agree. In my mind, I grouped your first item with the first > bullet, XML publication of Meta-Information, but maybe we should > be more explicit about that. I guess the word "publication" confused me then. Publication, to me, is about how to publish, distribute, make accessible. To be more precise, I would suggest to include: - [XML] definition of Meta-Information. What information is available? How is it defined? How can one access raw Meta-Information? - [HTML] rendering of Meta-Information How we make meta-information more accessible to humans? Things like Plone and TMDA are using Meta-Information, but they should not be placed in the "IETF Meta-information" category. Their category depends on what they actually do with Meta-Information. For example, IETF might provide a pre-configured Plone-based web site to WGs. That web site may use a lot of IETF Meta-Information to build WG pages. This should be described as a separate item: - Providing WGs with IETF-hosted web site and collaboration environment/space In this light, I am note even sure that "rendering of Meta-Information" is a stand-alone category because different tools will render the same information differently. It may be difficult for folks to comprehend what "rendering of Meta-Information" means as far as tools, actions, specific activities are concerned. It is difficult for me. I would focus on specific tools whenever we can. Thus, I would suggest to revise the Meta-Information items as follows: IETF Meta-information Tool Builders * What information is available? * How is it defined (XML DTDs and such) * How can one access raw Meta-Information? The above can be described in a single, comprehensive draft or web page. I would drop the generic "HTML rendering of same" and add specific rendering tools we want: Draft status pages Community We already have the above item. Can we think of other important ones to add? Thanks, Alex. P.S. Sorry for late comments. I hope you can integrate these ideas while addressing Harald's comments to minimize the work. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 6 17:38:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18546; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFJe4-00049h-It; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:48:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFJCp-0008ER-KY; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:20:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFJ6j-00044n-QH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:13:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15237 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFJGJ-0002CH-Bb for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:23:51 -0400 Received: from cnri-7-102.cnri.reston.va.us ([132.151.7.102] helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CFJ6k-0003mb-00; Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:13:58 -0400 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006084022.02a713e0@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:08:20 -0400 To: tools-team@ietf.org From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Subject: [Tools-team] New Intellectual Property Rights Web Page X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Dear TOOLS Team: For your information, the IETF Secretariat has deployed a new intellectual property rights Web page, the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_disclosure.cgi). This new Web page provides the following features: * A Web interface for submitting IPR disclosures, including third-party IPR disclosures. * A search capability for identifying IPR disclosures related to an Internet-Draft, RFC, or working group, or submitted by a given patent owner/applicant, or containing key words in the document title. * A list of all generic, specific, and third-party IPR disclosures currently on file, with an active link to each. The templates for submitting IPR Disclosures are based on the template provided in RFC 3905, "A Template for IETF Patent Disclosures and Licensing Declarations," which was published in September 2004. The template was modified to accommodate "generic" and "third-party" IPR disclosures, and to incorporate comments from reviewers. Work on the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page" was initiated prior to the formation of the TOOLS Team. The tool was reviewed and tested by the IPR Working Group, and was approved for deployment by Harald. Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 7 18:39:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06236; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFh4n-0001hp-FH; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:49:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFgnr-00062B-Tt; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:32:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CFgea-0004oN-5j for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:22:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05325 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CFgoM-0000cT-Se for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:32:35 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 213E038098; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 00:21:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1329A38068; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 00:21:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0146F37E44; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 00:21:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CFge3-00045h-00; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:21:55 +0200 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 00:21:54 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] New Intellectual Property Rights Web Page Message-ID: <20041008002154.63968c1c@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006084022.02a713e0@colossus.foretec.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006084022.02a713e0@colossus.foretec.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, Thanks for the heads-up about this :-) I'll add this page to the list of tools on the tools web-site shortly. Henrik On Wednesday, 6 Oct 2004, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Dear TOOLS Team: > > For your information, the IETF Secretariat has deployed a new intellectual > property rights Web page, the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page" > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_disclosure.cgi). This new Web page > provides the following features: > > * A Web interface for submitting IPR disclosures, including third-party IPR > disclosures. > > * A search capability for identifying IPR disclosures related to an > Internet-Draft, RFC, or working group, or submitted by a given patent > owner/applicant, or containing key words in the document title. > > * A list of all generic, specific, and third-party IPR disclosures > currently on file, with an active link to each. > > The templates for submitting IPR Disclosures are based on the template > provided in RFC 3905, "A Template for IETF Patent Disclosures and Licensing > Declarations," which was published in September 2004. The template was > modified to accommodate "generic" and "third-party" IPR disclosures, and to > incorporate comments from reviewers. > > Work on the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page" was initiated prior to the formation > of the TOOLS Team. The tool was reviewed and tested by the IPR Working > Group, and was approved for deployment by Harald. > > Regards, > > Barbara > > ------------------------------------------------ > Barbara B. Fuller > Acting Executive Director > Internet Engineering Task Force > > Natick, Massachusetts Office: > > Phone: +1-508-650-4020 > Fax: +1-508-650-4639 > > Reston, Virginia Office: > > Phone: +1-703-620-9053 > Fax: +1-703-620-9071 > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 10 15:41:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05504; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGjjR-0005W5-Sx; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:51:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CGjYJ-0001yF-CK; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:40:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CGjVw-0000uG-9Z for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:37:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05265 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGjgK-0005Rp-0a for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:48:36 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6EECE382D6; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6170B37F71; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3450F37E54; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CGjVN-0008Lm-00; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:17 +0200 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:16 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] id submission tool draft -03 comments X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 140baa79ca42e6b0e2b4504291346186 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, all, Below are my comments on the -03 version of the draft. The comments inlined in the draft text are available here: http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?url=../../reviews/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.a.txt&comments=HENRIK and a side-by-side diff showing both the comments and suggested grammar fixes is available here: http://ietf.levkowetz.com/reviews/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.a-from-3.diff.html Henrik ----------- Comments: Section 4., para. 2: Posted draft: A draft accepted into public IETF draft repository and, hence, publicly available on IETF web site. Posting (a.k.a., publication) of a draft does not imply any IETF or IESG review and endorsement. HENRIK: I'd rather avoid the mention of publication here - submitting a draft for publication pretty much means submitting it for publication as an RFC, the action a chair does when the draft is ready for IESG review. Section 6., para. 5: Check action: Stores the draft in the toolset staging area, extracts draft meta-data, validates the submission (Section 8). Produces the Check page. HENRIK: "Upload page" also describes storing the draft in the staging area. Should not also be stored by the check action, I think. Section 6., para. 6: Check page: Displays draft interpretation and validation results (Section 9). Draft rendering preview may also be given on this page. After reviewing draft interpretation and validation results, the submitter has four basic choices (a) auto-post draft "as is" now; (b) make manual corrections and submit the draft to Secretariat for manual posting later; (c) cancel submission; or (d) do nothing. The automated posting option may not be available for drafts that failed validation. HENRIK: Draft rendering is a new concept, and may not be clear to the reader. Exactly what is ment by draft rendering here and later in the text needs to be clarified, I think - I'm not sure for myself what is ment at all places where this occurs in the text. (Possibly use a different word...) Section 7., para. 2: The Upload page exposes the "post-if-valid" knob of the Check action (Section 8) (R80). Hint: a corresponding "post if valid" checkbox next to the "upload" or "validate" button may suffice. HENRIK: Do we need/want the extra path this gives? Maybe we should just have the basic sequence of pages, without this shortcut. Section 8.1, para. 0: 8.1 Preprocessing HENRIK: I wonder if 'preprocessing' is the best word here. In addition to collision with other (e.g. C language) usage of the word, there is a collision with the use of the word in the first sentence of para. 2 below. Change to "Processing of XML sources" or "processing", depending on context? Section 8.1, para. 2: Both original and preprocessed XML sources may be posted later. The original source with include PIs may be useful to the RFC Editor and diffs. The preprocessed version without PIs becomes the default HENRIK: I don't understand the '... and diffs.' part above public XML source of the posted draft (R10). If any of the include PIs cannot be handled, the entire action fails (R11). HENRIK: Maybe say "submission fails" rather than "action fails", here and later? (That's more readable language, I think...) Section 8.3, para. 1: Each stored draft format is interpreted to extract draft meta-data (R14). If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction fails, the format is not accepted for automated posting (R15). In this case, the submitter can either delete the offending format(s) from the submission and auto-post OR proceed along the manual submission route so that the Secretariat can verify all formats. HENRIK: I don't understand "... and auto-post". s/ and auto-post// ? Section 8.3, para. 7: WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. HENRIK: Is it wise to try to extract WG IDs from personal drafts? And is it useful? Section 8.4.1, para. 5: 4. Current draft state must allow new revisions to be posted (R21). [[XXX15: document IESG review states when new revisions are allowed. Secretariat, Harald, and Pekka opinions seem to differ here. Secretariat: No revisions are allowed in any state except for "I-D exists", "AD watching", or an explicit IESG request for a new revision. Harald: no revisions once submitted for publication. Pekka: In practice, revisions are allowed in any state; don't try to solve a process knowledge problem (the I-D author should not submit new versions) using a technical means. Need further clarification. If no clarification, always allow until approved, but issue a warning when draft is under IESG control. --Alex]]. HENRIK: My experience with practice supports Pekka's view here... Section 8.4.1, para. 7: 6. An IETF IPR statement must appear in the draft text (R23). [[XXX16: add the applicable parts of RFC 2026, 3667 and 3668 - this is mostly a matter of checking the presence of boilerplate text. --Henrik]][[XXX57: Do you mean that the I-D boilerplate must be present, or that the entire IPR and Copyright text must be present, or both? --Brian E. Carpenter]] HENRIK: Maybe "An IETF IPR Statement and other boilerplate requred for drafts according to RFC 3667 and 3668 (or successors) must appear in the draft text (R23)" Section 8.4.2, para. 3: [[XXX33: What to do when two versions are submitted with a suspiciously small gap? How small should the gap be to warrant warnings/actions? --Stanislav]][[XXX59: to prevent both DOS attacks and human error, anything less than 48 hours should be kicked over for manual handling. --Brian E. Carpenter]] HENRIK: Maybe specify 24 hours? Section 9., para. 4: The Check page provides a preview of the draft plain text format rendering (R31), with a link to see how the entire draft (with all its formats) would be rendered if posted (R82). Hint: the Check page preview should be sufficiently long to let authors detect obvious draft mismatch or misinterpretation errors but short enough to avoid dominating the page. Displaying just the draft "prefix", including abstract, may be sufficient. HENRIK: 'prefix' is too diffuse / open to interpretation. Specify more exactly what this includes, in addiotn to the abstract. Maybe: Title, Authors, Filename, Date, Abstract Section 9.1, para. 3: List of drafts obsoleted by this draft (R33). This is useful to make obsoleted drafts invisible. [[XXX43: Can non -00 draft obsolete other drafts? Or is this reserved for -00 versions for some reason? Is this reserved for WG drafts only? --Alex]]. [[XXX44: This may open a bigger can of worms than we want to deal with, as it allows anybody to "kill" any other draft. The toolset would probably need a manual check by Secretariat and/or approvals from both(?) WG Chairs. A lot of work for something relatively rare? --Alex]][[XXX60: This is too complex and would be a luxury in Version 1. Maybe for Version 2. --Brian E. Carpenter]] HENRIK: Agreed. Skip this for now. Section 10., para. 4: [[XXX2: should the posting program inform all authors that their draft is being posted (since the draft says they all made an IPR statement)? Default answer: yes. Obtaining consent from all authors seems impractical. --Alex]][[XXX26: responding to e-mail should also be supported (as an alternative to going back to cut-and-paste the URL with a token) --Alex]] HENRIK: I agree with both of these notes. Section 15., para. 3: HENRIK: Providing we know the data - the exact requirements on this page comes from the secretariat, rather than the community. Section 16., para. 5: [[XXX37: If there is only one draft format, can e-mail body be used for submission? --Alex]] HENRIK: I think this is a definite advantage but not a MUST. Section 16., para. 6: [[XXX38: To easily filter out spam and reduce human errors, should we require a special keyword in the subject or body of the submission e-mail? For example, we can require and check that the subject starts with "Please post" --Alex]] HENRIK: Or - subject or first N (8?) lines of the e-mail should contain one of the words "post" or "submit" ? Section 17., para. 19: [[XXX50: Is it appropriate for us to specify stage deadlines for the first two stages? Should IESG do that instead? Would be nice to have at least a rough number to illustrate the relative duration of stages though. --Alex]] HENRIK: It would probably not be appropriate for us to specify the deadlines. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 10 18:41:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20722; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGmXg-0000fG-Me; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:51:52 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CGmN1-0002DO-1S; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:40:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CGmKH-0001tk-UJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:38:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20471 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.202.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGmUg-0000bW-Nd for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:48:47 -0400 Received: from d1gsdg11.foretec.com (h000c41701e67.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.91.122.107]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004101022372901600c45m8e>; Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:37:29 +0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041010175904.02bc8c58@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:29:46 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] id submission tool draft -03 comments In-Reply-To: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> References: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Hi Henrik: At 03:37 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote: >Section 8.4.1, para. 5: > 4. Current draft state must allow new revisions to be posted (R21). > [[XXX15: document IESG review states when new revisions are > allowed. Secretariat, Harald, and Pekka opinions seem to differ > here. Secretariat: No revisions are allowed in any state except > for "I-D exists", "AD watching", or an explicit IESG request for > a new revision. Harald: no revisions once submitted for > publication. Pekka: In practice, revisions are allowed in any > state; don't try to solve a process knowledge problem (the I-D > author should not submit new versions) using a technical means. > Need further clarification. If no clarification, always allow > until approved, but issue a warning when draft is under IESG > control. --Alex]]. > HENRIK: My experience with practice supports Pekka's view here... There is really no disagreement among the three opinions. (a) The state "I-D exists" means simply that someone has submitted an I-D. Therefore, revisions are of course allowed. (b) The state "AD is watching" means that an AD is following the progress of the I-D and may wish to shepherd it if and when the author submits a request to publish the I-D as an RFC. Therefore, revisions are of course still allowed. (c) When the author submits a request to publish the I-D as an RFC, the document enters the state "Publication Requested," and the author receives a message that includes the following statement: "Please note that once a request to publish an I-D as an RFC has been submitted, the I-D must not be revised without the explicit advance approval of the shepherding Area Director (AD)." Therefore, from this point forward, revisions are only allowed when the shepherding AD or the IESG requests them. Needless to say, if the authors continued to revise the I-D while the AD or the IESG was reviewing it, then the AD/IESG would be evaluating a moving target. SOooo, Pekka is correct....revisions are allowed at any time...but certain rules apply. And Harald is correct too...unsolicited revisions are not allowed after publication is requested. However, they are allowed if the AD or the IESG requests a revised I-D. Please note that one of the I-D Tracker sub-states is "Revised I-D Needed," the definition of which is: "An updated I-D is needed to address the issues that have been raised." I hope that this information clears up some of the confusion about this issue. Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 11 18:59:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08026; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CH9JV-0007Hr-Nd; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:10:45 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CH94q-0001RS-DL; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:55:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CH8zD-0006As-AB for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:49:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07246 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CH99o-00074U-Ie for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:00:45 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9BMneJ2012167; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:49:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , tools-team@ietf.org References: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:49:39 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Tools-team] Re: id submission tool draft -03 comments X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:37:16 +0200, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Alex, all, > > Below are my comments on the -03 version of the draft. Henrik, Thanks a lot for the comments! I have already applied a few and will try to finish tonight. I will post version 04 then. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 11 19:41:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10898; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CH9xq-00089E-HT; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:52:26 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CH9cw-0003iM-Es; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:30:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CH9Uv-0001Y1-Ls for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:22:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09816 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CH9fY-0007nd-Fu for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:33:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A72661B9B; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:22:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15851-04; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:22:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3F261B94; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:21:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:16:25 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 Message-ID: <4B48E026EDC899B789B2FE1F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Note.... --On 6. oktober 2004 15:34 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > WG Status update web interface Secretariat, > Chairs > > WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat, > Chairs On both these tools, the IESG needs to be added to the users. We do stuff to WGs, including changing or approving milestones, replacing chairs, and updating charters. We also have particular requirements on meetings (such as limiting the number of WGs managed by the same AD at the same time....). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 12 13:53:03 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14014; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHR0P-0003Pw-5O; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:04:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHQi0-0002tu-UB; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:45:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHQaZ-0000EQ-94 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:37:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12157 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHQlL-0002yF-4i for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:48:40 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id AC7183802C; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:36:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0FC37E4A; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:36:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A8338006; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:36:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CHQa1-0001wv-4R; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:36:57 +0200 Message-ID: <416C1627.5050405@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:36:39 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> <4B48E026EDC899B789B2FE1F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <4B48E026EDC899B789B2FE1F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Harald, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Note.... > > --On 6. oktober 2004 15:34 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz > wrote: > >> WG Status update web interface Secretariat, >> Chairs >> >> WG Meeting scheduler Secretariat, >> Chairs > > > On both these tools, the IESG needs to be added to the users. > We do stuff to WGs, including changing or approving milestones, > replacing chairs, and updating charters. > > We also have particular requirements on meetings (such as limiting the > number of WGs managed by the same AD at the same time....). Ok, adding the IESG as user to both of these. Thanks ! Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 12 22:25:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10099; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHYzx-0001Gq-2l; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:36:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHYoA-0003iu-Bw; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:24:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHYlh-0002no-Qs for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:21:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA09850 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHYwX-0001CN-40 for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:32:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642711CDEB6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10991-09 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29B21CDEB4 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:40:55 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 12 Oct 2004 20:19:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> Message-ID: <86ekk3sc5c.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Henrik Levkowetz writes: > Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees > > I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors, > Secretariat > > Publication request tool Secretariat, > Chairs, > Authors (Indep.) > > RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders It would seem to me that the marginal utility of WG agendas in HTML (compared to plain text agendas) is limited and probably lower than the next three items. I-D tracker feature extension, publication request tool, and RSS feeds for IETF-related objects provide substantial new functionality, whereas agenda format is simply about pretty-printing. Am I missing something? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Letters in this message are closer than they appear. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 01:13:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21844; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHbd7-0004DU-It; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:24:53 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHbOl-0006Pl-TO; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:10:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHbLz-0005hg-Qr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:07:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21367 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHbWn-00045p-1w for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:18:24 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 0317C37EC2; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E1137E79; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B7A38008; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CHbLM-0004hw-6i; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:06:32 +0200 Message-ID: <416CB7B2.2040307@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:05:54 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 References: <20041006153421.5da26cf7@chardonnay> <86ekk3sc5c.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <86ekk3sc5c.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stas, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > > >> Html-ized WG agendas IETF attendees >> >> I-D tracker extended for use by Chairs Chairs, Authors, >> Secretariat >> >> Publication request tool Secretariat, >> Chairs, >> Authors (Indep.) >> >> RSS/Atom feeds for new IDs, RFCs, WGs, ... Tool Builders > > > It would seem to me that the marginal utility of WG agendas in HTML > (compared to plain text agendas) is limited and probably lower than > the next three items. > > I-D tracker feature extension, publication request tool, and RSS feeds > for IETF-related objects provide substantial new functionality, > whereas agenda format is simply about pretty-printing. Am I missing > something? Maybe, yes. The html-izing referred to here is not about pretty rendering, but rather about adding markup to make any reference to a draft, RFC or URL be a hyperlink. This makes it is easy while sitting in a session or while prepare for a session, to get right to the document in question, rather than having to cut and paste and add the repository part of an url by hand. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 02:08:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03499; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHcUS-00057W-Ou; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:20:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHcII-00073w-EJ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:07:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHcHJ-0006Ny-M0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:06:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01127 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob4.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.214] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHcS9-00054z-P8 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:17:38 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob4.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:58 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9D65mbA009700; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9D65lTk000403; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.28]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I5I00HHJE9NVC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:05:49 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 In-reply-to: <416CB7B2.2040307@levkowetz.com> To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" , "'stanislav shalunov'" Message-id: <0I5I00HHKE9NVC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcSw42aur0yGDpfEQ4GnpmaNdFnLNAABvx6w X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm wondering if we could possibly spend some time talking about "tools for non-IETFers", i.e., those things that would help people who aren't part of the IETF, IESG, etc. but are implementors of IETF protocols to understand better the status of both current and past work. I think sometimes even the general public, the trade press, marketing managers for various products, prospective buyers trying to check up on marketers claims about approval of stuff... what do *they* need? Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 02:20:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA13776; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHcfg-0005H3-Pm; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:31:37 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHcQy-00037a-3u; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:16:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHcMr-0000yS-6a for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:12:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA06855 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHcXh-0005AP-U9 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:23:22 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9D6C4J2013194; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:12:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9D6C4Mp013193; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:12:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:12:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20041012235833.I1121@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: id submission tool draft -03 comments X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Below are my comments on the -03 version of the draft. Henrik, Thanks again. I have made the corresponding edits and submitted the 04 version of the draft for posting. I hope I did not overlook any comments. There are still a few XXXs I need to resolve, but we are getting close. I also need to put each Rnnn requirement into a corresponding implementation stage and polish the text. I took the liberty to "skip" a few editorial changes you sent, for now (e.g., do English speakers really put "the" in front of a possessive like "submitter's hat"?). As for non-editorial changes, I did not skip any. Please let me know if the changes I made do not reflect your wishes. Here are comments related to a couple of issues you raised. > HENRIK: "Upload page" also describes storing the draft in the staging > area. Should not also be stored by the check action, I think. The "Upload page" section does not describe storing. Am I missing something? > Section 8.1, para. 0: > 8.1 Preprocessing > HENRIK: I wonder if 'preprocessing' is the best word here. In addition > to collision with other (e.g. C language) usage of the word, there > is a collision with the use of the word in the first sentence of > para. 2 below. Change to "Processing of XML sources" or "processing", > depending on context? I think that preprocessing (in a programming language sense or even in a general sense) is exactly what is going here as far as resolving XML PIs is concerned. I agree that plain text or HTML generation is not preprocessing. I have split the subsection into two subsections accordingly and polished "preprocessing" occurrences elsewhere. > Section 8.3, para. 7: > WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for > individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for > non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in > "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in > "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. > HENRIK: Is it wise to try to extract WG IDs from personal drafts? And is > it useful? > I think it can be useful (otherwise including WG acronym in a draft name would be useless as well!) and should not hurt if tools and humans treat this information with care (as they should today). However, I do not have a strong preference here. Please let me know if you do. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 09:23:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25433; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHjGv-0004z8-7W; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:34:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHj4F-0005na-As; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:21:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHj2S-0005OM-Cr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:19:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25183 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHjDJ-0004uM-RS for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:30:46 -0400 Received: by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8A69B37E48; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:18:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7798A37E8F; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:18:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA7F38006; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:18:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CHj1p-0004sY-00; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:18:53 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:18:52 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Alex Rousskov Message-ID: <20041013151852.04f0c5ea@chardonnay> In-Reply-To: <20041012235833.I1121@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041010213716.5162c2ce@chardonnay> <20041012235833.I1121@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Re: id submission tool draft -03 comments X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, On Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > > Below are my comments on the -03 version of the draft. > > Henrik, > > Thanks again. I have made the corresponding edits and > submitted the 04 version of the draft for posting. I hope I did not > overlook any comments. Ok, good. > There are still a few XXXs I need to resolve, but we are > getting close. I also need to put each Rnnn requirement into a > corresponding implementation stage and polish the text. > > I took the liberty to "skip" a few editorial changes you sent, > for now (e.g., do English speakers really put "the" in front of a > possessive like "submitter's hat"?). Withouth looking up the specific sentence, I think I remember this, and it could go either way, but I chose to put in 'the' because it made the sentence more definite. I think all grammar changes I made were quite deliberate :-) > As for non-editorial changes, I did not skip any. Please let > me know if the changes I made do not reflect your wishes. Here are > comments related to a couple of issues you raised. > > > HENRIK: "Upload page" also describes storing the draft in the staging > > area. Should not also be stored by the check action, I think. > > The "Upload page" section does not describe storing. Am I missing > something? It says "Interface to copy draft from submitters computer into the toolset staging area" - which I read as storing it in the staging area ... > > Section 8.1, para. 0: > > 8.1 Preprocessing > > HENRIK: I wonder if 'preprocessing' is the best word here. In addition > > to collision with other (e.g. C language) usage of the word, there > > is a collision with the use of the word in the first sentence of > > para. 2 below. Change to "Processing of XML sources" or "processing", > > depending on context? > > I think that preprocessing (in a programming language sense or even in > a general sense) is exactly what is going here as far as resolving XML > PIs is concerned. I agree that plain text or HTML generation is not > preprocessing. I have split the subsection into two subsections > accordingly and polished "preprocessing" occurrences elsewhere. Ok. > > Section 8.3, para. 7: > > WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for > > individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for > > non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in > > "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in > > "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. > > HENRIK: Is it wise to try to extract WG IDs from personal drafts? And is > > it useful? > > I think it can be useful (otherwise including WG acronym in a draft > name would be useless as well!) and should not hurt if tools and > humans treat this information with care (as they should today). > However, I do not have a strong preference here. Please let me know if > you do. I don't have a strong preference. It just seemed a bit chancy, with added complexity for not so large gain. For drafts named draft-ietf- [something] the next part is positively the working group, while for individual drafts there is not such a strong convention, so you'd have to mach each part of the name against a list of existing WGs - ... added complexity ,:-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 09:23:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25462; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHjHA-0004zS-I1; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:34:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHj4H-0005o5-1n; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:21:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHj2t-0005Pk-Od for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:19:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA25216 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHjDk-0004v4-Gq for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:31:13 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F254037E56; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E230237E48 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C2637E43 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CHj2G-0004sv-00 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:20 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:20 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041013151920.17201b2f@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 13 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed Agenda for today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up -04 is out. Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? 4. Tool priority list 5. Action item review. * All: Review the -03 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. Preferably by Saturday, but latest by Sunday this week. Review by Henrik received * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. Done * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 20 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 10:37:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03292; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHkQl-0006PK-RR; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:48:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHkCs-0006w9-QF; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:34:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHk2I-00031u-1B for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:23:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00891 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHkD6-00066a-MV for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:34:40 -0400 Received: by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 69D4F37E7D; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av5-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C21737E78; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133C537E4F; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CHk1b-0005jV-Jj; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:43 +0200 Message-ID: <416D3A23.2000905@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:27 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Priority list, rev. 3 References: <0I5I00HHKE9NVC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I5I00HHKE9NVC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Masinter wrote: > I'm wondering if we could possibly spend some time > talking about "tools for non-IETFers", i.e., those things > that would help people who aren't part of the IETF, > IESG, etc. but are implementors of IETF protocols > to understand better the status of both current and > past work. > > I think sometimes even the general public, the trade > press, marketing managers for various products, prospective > buyers trying to check up on marketers claims about > approval of stuff... what do *they* need? Ok, let's include that in the AoB section of today's meeting. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 12:33:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13890; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHmFa-00009u-U3; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:45:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHltv-0000vx-M0; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:22:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHlnO-00079Y-55 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:16:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11667 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHlyK-0008Ex-H1 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:27:31 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9DGG5J2033145 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:16:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) References: <20041012235619.Y1121@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: To: "IETF TOOLS team" Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:16:04 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=----------KHmjuZG7AlIXMXeV0n2puZ MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20041012235619.Y1121@measurement-factory.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9d188674e72c85a9c588c95b74b01962 Subject: [Tools-team] Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04 (fwd) X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d7786f7f044cdd1dc748f0f96566f106 ------------KHmjuZG7AlIXMXeV0n2puZ Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI, as requested on the conference call... ------- Forwarded message ------- From: "Alex Rousskov" To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Subject: Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:58:12 -0600 (MDT) Please post the attached draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt file as a TOOLS team Internet-Draft. Thank you, Alex. ------------KHmjuZG7AlIXMXeV0n2puZ Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt Content-Type: text/plain; name=draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TOOLS team A. Rousskov Internet-Draft The Measurement Factory Expires: April 13, 2005 October 13, 2004 Requirements for IETF Draft Submission Toolset draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04 Status of this Memo This document is an Internet-Draft and is subject to all provisions of section 3 of RFC 3667. By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she become aware will be disclosed, in accordance with RFC 3668. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on April 13, 2005. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2004). Abstract This document specifies requirements for an IETF toolset facilitating Internet-Draft submission, validation, and posting. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 1] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. State of this draft . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3. Scope . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4. Notation and Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5. Status quo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6. Overall Toolset operation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7. Upload page . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 8. Check action . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8.1 Preprocessing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8.2 Processing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 8.3 Storage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 8.4 Extraction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 8.5 Validation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 8.5.1 Absolute requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 8.5.2 Desireable features . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 9. Check page . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 9.1 External meta-data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 10. Post Now action . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 10.1 Receipt page . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 11. Adjust action . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 12. Adjust page . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 13. Post Manually action . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 14. Receipt page . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 15. Bypassing the Toolset . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 16. E-mail interface . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 17. Implementation stages . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 18. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 19. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 20. Compliance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 A. Comparison with current procedures . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 B. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 C. Change log . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . 31 Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 2] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 1. Introduction Public Internet-Drafts are primary means of structured communication within IETF. Current Internet-Draft submission and posting mechanisms hinder efficient and timely communication while creating unnecessary load on the IETF Secretariat. The IETF TOOLs team recommends formalization and automation of the current mechanisms. This document contains specific automation requirements. The IETF Secretariat and many IETF participants have long been proponents of automation. This document attempts to reflect their known needs and wishes, as interpreted by the TOOLs team. 2. State of this draft While nothing has been set in stone yet, this draft approaches its stable state. Text marked with "XXX" usually contains informal descriptions of known problems the team still needs to solve. These "XXXs" are uniquely numbered for ease of reference. Only a few serious XXXs remain. Please review this draft. Comments on substance and XXX issues are requested. Editorial comments would be most useful at a later stage, when most XXXs are resolved and draft text is polished. Please post comments on tools-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or e-mail them directly to the author. RFC Editor Note: Please remove this section for the final publication of the document. It has been inspired by draft-rousskov-newtrk-id-state and related NEWTRK WG discussions. 3. Scope The Draft Submission Toolset discussed in this document is about getting a single new revision of an Internet-Draft from an IETF participant to the IETF draft repository. A single draft revision may include several formats, and dealing with those formats is in scope for the Toolset. Definition and sources of draft meta-information (to be used in Secretariat databases and elsewhere) are in scope. Submitter authentication and submission authorization are in scope. Draft posting may result in various notifications sent to interested parties. While this document recommends a subset of notification targets, details of notifications are out of scope. Creation of new drafts or new draft revisions as well as manipulation, visualization, and interaction with the drafts already Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 3] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 in the repository are out of scope. Draft expiration and archiving of old draft revisions are out of scope. 4. Notation and Terminology The following terms are to be interpreted according to their definitions below. [[XXX48: delete unused terms, if any. --Alex]] posted draft: A draft accepted into public IETF draft repository and, hence, publicly available on IETF web site. Posting of a draft does not imply any IETF or IESG review and endorsement. submitter: A human or software initiating submission of an Internet-Draft for validation or posting. In some cases, the Secretariat staff does the actual submission, but always on behalf of a submitter. In some cases (including but not limited to malicious attacks), the submitter is not the draft author. lawful submitter: A submitter that is authorized by IETF rules to post a given draft. This includes a draft author or editor (listed in the draft text), a corresponding WG Chair, or an IESG member. authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset as such. Author authentication is initially limited to verifying author's access to author's e-mail address listed in the draft. draft version: [[XXX68: Define and check whether version or revision should be used. --Alex]] draft format: Any draft source or presentation format, including original and preprocessed XML, original or generated plain text as well as PDF, Postscript, and HTML formats. [[XXX67: change "draft version" to "draft format" where appropriate. --Alex]] primary draft format: The first available draft format from the following list: plain text, Postscript, PDF, XML. immediately: without human interaction or artificial software delays. The Toolset is specified using a set of normative requirements. These requirements are English phrases ending with an "(Rnnn)" mark, where "nnn" is a unique requirement number. This document specifies interface and functionality of the Toolset, not details of a Toolset implementation. However, implementation hints or examples are often useful. To avoid mixup with Toolset requirements, such hints and examples are often marked with a "Hint:" Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 4] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 prefix. Implementation hints do not carry any normative force, and a different implementation may be the best choice. 5. Status quo This section summarizes the process for draft submission and posting as it exists at the time of writing. To get an Internet-Draft posted on IETF web site, an IETF participant e-mails draft text to the IETF Secretariat, along with an informal note asking to post the draft. Secretariat staff reads the note, reviews the draft according to a checklist, and then approves or rejects the submission. Draft approval triggers the corresponding announcement to be sent to appropriate IETF mailing lists. Every 4 hours, approved drafts are automatically copied to the IETF drafts repository and become available on IETF web site. Collectively, IETF participants submit thousands of Internet-Drafts per year (in the year 2000, about three thousand drafts were submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). About 30-50% of posted drafts are Working Group drafts (among some 2,100 drafts, there were about 380 new and 290 updated WG drafts posted in 2003). While no rejection statistics is available, the vast majority of submitted drafts are approved by Secretariat for posting. It usually takes the Secretariat a few minutes to review a given draft. However, since the Secretariat staff does not work 24/7, does not work in all time zones, has other responsibilities, and since approved drafts are posted in batches every 4 hours, it may take from several hours to several days to get a draft posted. Due to much higher demand and fixed processing capacity, postings during the last weeks before IETF face-to-face meetings take much longer, creating a long queue of unprocessed drafts that are then announced nearly simultaneously. To give IETF face-to-face meeting participants time to review relevant documents, Secretariat does not accept Internet-Draft submissions close to IETF meetings (regardless of whether a draft is relevant to the upcoming meeting). Many Working Groups have come up with ad hoc solutions to cope with posting delays. For example, many draft subversions are "temporarily" published on personal web sites or sent (completely or in part) to the group list. Alternative means of publication may effectively replace official IETF interfaces, with only a few major draft revisions ending up posted on IETF web site. Informal interfaces for submitting and posting drafts discourage Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 5] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 automation. Lack of submission automation increases Secretariat load, complicates automated indexing and cross-referencing of the drafts, and, for some authors, leads to stale drafts not being updated often enough. Beyond a short Secretariat checklist, submitted drafts are not checked for compliance with IETF requirements for archival documents, and submitters are not notified of any violations. As a result, IESG and RFC Editor may have to spend resources (and delay standard approval) resolving violations with draft authors. Often, these violations can be detected automatically and would have been fixed by draft authors if authors knew about them before requesting to publish the draft as a standard. Technically, anybody and anything can submit a draft to the Secretariat. There is no reliable authentication mechanism in place. Initial submissions of WG drafts require WG Chair approval, which can be faked just like the submission request itself. No malicious impersonations or fake approvals have been reported to date however. Lack of authentication is not perceived as a serious problem, possibly because serious falsification are likely to be noticed before serious damage can be done. Due to the informal and manual nature of the submission mechanism, its massive automated abuse is unlikely to cause anything but a short denial of draft posting service and, hence, is probably not worth defending against. However, future automation may result in a different trade off. 6. Overall Toolset operation This section provides a high-level description for the proposed Toolset. The description is meant to show overall operation and order; please refer to other sections for details specific to each step. A typical submitter goes through a sequence of 2-4 web pages and associated actions. The number of pages depends on the draft validation and meta-data extraction results. For example, validating the draft without posting it requires interacting with two web pages: Upload and Check. The common case of posting a valid draft without manual meta-data adjustments takes three web pages (Upload, Check, Receipt). Here is a brief overview of pages and actions: Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 6] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Upload page: Interface to copy draft from submitters computer into the Toolset staging area (Section 7). Multiple formats are accepted. The draft is sent to the Check action. Check action: Stores the draft in the Toolset staging area, extracts draft meta-data, validates the submission (Section 8). Produces the Check page. Check page: Displays draft interpretation and validation results (Section 9). Draft preview may also be given on this page. After reviewing draft interpretation and validation results, the submitter has four basic choices (a) auto-post draft "as is" now; (b) make manual corrections and submit the draft to Secretariat for manual posting later; (c) cancel submission; or (d) do nothing. The automated posting option may not be available for drafts with validation errors. Automated posting: If the submitter decides to proceed with automated posting from the Check page, the system authenticates the submitter and checks whether the submitter is allowed to post the draft. If the submitter is authorized, the draft is immediately posted, deleted from the staging area, and the submitter is notified of the result via e-mail and Receipt page (Section 10). Manual adjustment and posting: If the submitter decides to adjust meta-data, the draft remains in the Toolset staging area, and the Adjust action (Section 11) presents the submitter with an Adjust page (Section 12). When submitter makes the adjustments and proceeds with manual posting, a pointer to the stored draft and its adjusted meta-data is sent to the secretariat for manual processing (Section 13). The submitter is notified of the pending Secretariat request via e-mail and Receipt page. Cancellation: If the submitter decides to explicitly cancel the submission, the draft is deleted from the Toolset staging area and an appropriate Receipt page is generated with no further actions. Receipt page: Contains details of a successful or failed draft submission and informs the submitter of the next appropriate step(s) related to submission result. The following diagram illustrates the basic submission logic: /---> Post Now / Upload --> Check -+-----> Adjust ---> Send to Secretariat \ \---> Cancel Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 7] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 If the submitter does not select any explicit action for 1 hour, then the submission is considered abandoned, and all corresponding state may be deleted by garbage collection (R66). The staging area maintenance algorithms must be robust in the presence of DoS attacks attempting to overwhelm the area with fake submissions in various stages (R67). The "web pages" this text is referring to are distinct dialogs, that may be visible to the submitter under the same or different URL, and supported by a single or several CGI scripts (or even applets). The Toolset must handle multiple submitters simultaneously submitting the same draft (R72) and a single submitter simultaneously submitting two drafts (R73). The latter might happen, for example, when the submitter is using several browser windows to submit several drafts or is submitting drafts via e-mail interface. The term "simultaneously" means that submission processing times overlap. Hint: Except for the Upload page, pages contain a submission session identifier to provide actions with access to stored information. The identifier is specific to the submission rather than draft version or the submitter. While the nature of the web interface allows the session identifier to be invisible to the submitter, e-mail communication would need to identify the session so that the recipient (and Toolset) know the context. Hint: A single action may correspond to multiple programs and, vice versa, a single CGI program may implement several actions. Actions preserve and exchange state by storing it along with draft. Grouping all submission-specific information in one subdirectory named using the session identifier may increase robustness and simplify debugging. Session creation and destruction can then be logged in a global index. Ways to partially or completely bypass the Toolset are documented in Section 15 [[XXX4: Need to add details on how each action interacts with IETF infrastructure. --Alex]] 7. Upload page To upload the draft, the submitter goes to a well-known page on the IETF web site (R1). There, the draft text can be uploaded using an HTML file input form. This form provides input fields to upload plain text format of the draft (R2) and all other formats allowed by IETF draft publication rules (R3). At the time of writing, these formats are: XML (RFC 2629 and draft-mrose-writing-rfcs), Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 8] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Postscript, and PDF [[XXX66: is XML currently allowed? --Alex]]. Submitted forms are handled by the Check action (R5). The Toolset should have a Validation page, identical to the Upload page with the exception of its action. Submitting a draft via the Validation page causes the draft to be validated exactly like using Upload page would (R74). Regardless of the validation results, the stored draft meta-data is marked so that validation-only drafts can be identified and deleted first by garbage collector for the Toolset staging area (R75). Drafts uploaded via the Validation page cannot be be posted (R76); they would need to be uploaded via Upload page for that, and the validation results page should explain that (R77). This page, hosted at a well-known location, would be useful for tools using online validation, especially for bulk draft processing. 8. Check action The Check action preprocesses XML draft source (if any), generates plain text format (if needed), stores submitted draft (all formats) in the staging area, and then extracts meta-data and validates each format (R6). Errors and warnings are indicated to the submitter in the response via computer-friendly tag(s) and human-friendly text (R7). If any error is found, automated posting becomes impossible (R113), but the Toolset still gives the submitter an option of sending the draft for manual validation and posting (R114). Since each submission is treated in isolation, the submitter also has an option of correcting the problem and resubmitting for automated posting. It is an error to submit a draft which has neither plain text nor XML sources format (R68). XML source is acceptable without accompanying plain text only if the Toolset successfully generates a draft in plain text format from the XML source, as a part of the processing step (R69). 8.1 Preprocessing XML source containing XML processor instructions (PIs) is preprocessed to include references (R8). This step is needed to remove external dependencies from XML sources and to simplify tools processing posted XML. The XML preprocessor uses public database(s) to resolve PI references (R85). The Toolset documentation specifies what databases are used and how PIs are mapped to database entries (R86). The Toolset must not rely on PIs existence (R87) because some XML sources will be Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 9] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 preprocessed before the submission or will be written without PIs. Hint: Local up-to-date copies of Marshall Rose's reference databases at xml.resource.org can be used. Both original and preprocessed XML sources may be posted later. The original source with include PIs may be useful to the RFC Editor and generation of diffs (against future or past original sources). The preprocessed version without PIs becomes the default public XML source of the posted draft (R10). If any of the include PIs known to the Toolset cannot be handled, an error is recorded (R11), and the submitter is encouraged to do the preprocessing locally, before submitting the draft (R111). Draft formats other than XML are not preprocessed. 8.2 Processing When no plain text version of the draft is submitted, but XML sources are available, the Toolset attempts to generate plain text version from submitted XML sources (R70). If XML sources are available, the Toolset generates HTML draft format (R112). HTML generation failures should result in warnings, not errors (R115). 8.3 Storage XML source needs to be preprocessed to resolve XML processor instructions to include references. The action needs to store all draft formats so that successfully validated drafts can later be auto-posted at submitter request. The action needs to extract draft meta-data to perform validation and posting. Drafts need to be validated to catch broken submissions and to block automated submissions of malformed final draft versions for IETF Last Call and IESG review. The Check action stores all submitted formats of the draft in a staging area dedicated to the Toolset (R12). If, after garbage collection, the staging area is full (i.e., the total used size reached configured maximum capacity), the submitter and the Secretariat are notified of a fatal error (R13). 8.4 Extraction XML source needs to be preprocessed to resolve XML processor instructions to include references. The action needs to store all draft formats so that successfully validated drafts can later be auto-posted at submitter request. The action needs to extract draft Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 10] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 meta-data to perform validation and posting. Drafts need to be validated to catch broken submissions and to block automated submissions of malformed final draft versions for IETF Last Call and IESG review. Each stored draft format is interpreted to extract draft meta-data (R14). If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). Section 17 documents a non-obvious implementation schedule related to the above two requirements. When only partial support for format interpretation is available, only interpreted formats are subject to extraction and validation requirements. In other words, if the Toolset does not yet support interpretation of a given format, then the corresponding information is stored and made available "as is", regardless of the actual content. The draft interpreter extracts the following meta-data from each draft format (R16). identifier: Also known as draft "filename". For example, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13. revision: A non-negative integer also known as draft version. For example, 13 in draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13. name: Common part of all draft identifiers for all revisions of the same draft. For example, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission in draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13. WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. WG flag: True for IETF WG drafts and false for all other drafts. For example, "true" for "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13". title: A human-friendly draft title. For example, the title of this draft is "Requirements for IETF Draft Submission Toolset" authors: A list of all draft authors. For each author, their first name, last name, and e-mail are extracted. abstract: Draft abstract text. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 11] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 submission date: Draft submission date. expiration date: Draft expiration date. size: The number of pages and octets in primary format of the draft. The definition of a page depends on the format and may be imprecise or arbitrary for some formats. Initially, the Toolset uses draft name to extract WG ID (R88) and to detect WG drafts (R89). Currently, WG drafts do not have to contain WG name as a third component. If IETF policy is not changed to require uniform naming of WG drafts, the Toolset can eventually consult IETF databases to check WG status of individual-looking drafts (R90). If e-mail of an author cannot be extracted, the Toolset reports a warning (R95). E-mails are essential for notifying co-authors that their draft has been posted. If there are no such notifications, a submitter adding a co-author to the draft without co-author consent may not be caught for a while. Such "surprise" co-authorships has happened in the past and can be quite annoying. However, since the Toolset does not solicit co-authors consent to post a valid draft (and such solicitation would not go beyond e-mail control verification anyway), it is not possible to stop a malicious submitter from adding co-authors without their consent. A warning is usually sufficient for a good-will submitter, while a malicious submitter can easily circumvent a strict enforcement of the "all authors must have and control their e-mails" policy by adding a wrong e-mail address for an unaware co-author. 8.5 Validation XML source needs to be preprocessed to resolve XML processor instructions to include references. The action needs to store all draft formats so that successfully validated drafts can later be auto-posted at submitter request. The action needs to extract draft meta-data to perform validation and posting. Drafts need to be validated to catch broken submissions and to block automated submissions of malformed final draft versions for IETF Last Call and IESG review. IETF standards have to follow a set of syntax and semantics requirements [[XXX12: provide references to the nits document and IP policies --Alex]]. Most of those requirements are not enforced for Internet-Drafts. However, following them may improve draft quality, reduce IESG load, and increase the chances of the draft being approved as an RFC. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 12] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 When validating a given draft, it is important to distinguish between absolute requirements and desirable draft properties. Both categories are checked for, but violations have different effects depending on the category. The two categories are detailed in the following subsections. 8.5.1 Absolute requirements Violating any of these requirements would prevent a draft to be automatically posted (R17). The offending draft would have to be fixed or submitted for manual posting, with an explanation why the absolute requirements need to be violated (or why Validator mis-detected violations). These explanations may speedup Secretariat posting decision and may help help Secretariat to improve Toolset implementation. 1. All available meta-data entries must match across all submitted draft formats (R18). For example, if the interpreter managed to extract draft title from plain text and PDF version, both titles must match. This requirement prevents accidental submission of mismatching formats. 2. A draft must be submitted by an authorized submitter (R19). [[XXX13: move this lower, we do not know the submitter at this stage --Alex]][[XXX14: Don't forget the co-author, changed editor, and drafts being posted anonymously (secretariat needs to know who submitter is, but name doesn't necessarily appear on draft) --Harald]] 3. A Working Group draft must be approved as a WG draft by the corresponding Working Group (R20). This approval is usually relayed before or after the submission of the -00 version of the draft, by a Chair or Secretary of the corresponding WG. [[XXX58: Document what the Toolset must do if no approval exists at the time of the submission. --Alex]] 4. Correct draft ID (including correct revision number with respect to already published revisions, if any) must appear in the draft text (R22). 5. An IETF IPR Statement and other boilerplate required for drafts according to RFC 3667 and 3668 (or successors) must appear in the draft text (R23). 6. Posting this draft must not result in any Denial of Service attack threshold to be crossed (R97). "Individual" DoS threshold for a given draft is 3 revisions per day. "Global" DoS thresholds for all drafts are 500 submissions and 1GByte worth of Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 13] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 data in past 24 hours. Other thresholds may be introduced and these initial thresholds may be adjusted as necessary. The thresholds are likely to become more smart/dynamic with experience. Hint: Bandwidth available for submissions may need to be throttled to make reaching the daily size quota (with malicious intent) difficult. Toolset should warn the Secretariat if total submissions are approaching any global threshold. 8.5.2 Desireable features Violating any of the following requirements does not prevent the submitter to auto-post the draft (R24). 1. TBD: list testable nits here or refer to the nits document. Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/ 2. New draft revisions are expected (R21). For example, revision 00 of an individual draft is always expected, while posting a revision of a draft already under IESG review should generate a warning. 3. Last revision was posted at least 24 hours ago (R96). This warning may prevent some human errors, especially when multiple authors may post the same draft. When a valid draft is being posted and submitter authorization or co-author notification is performed, validation results should be included in the e-mail (R81) so that the submitter can see meta-data extraction and validation warnings. Note that the results cannot include errors since only valid drafts can be posted. 9. Check page The Check page, created by the Check action displays extracted draft meta-data and validation results (R25). The purpose of the page is to allow the submitter to verify whether the stored draft and automatically extracted meta-data match submitter's intent and to be informed of validation problems. Extracted meta-data items that were not successfully extracted or that failed validation checks must be marked specially (rather than silently omitted) (R26). Validation messages include both errors and warnings. Each validation message should refer to normative document(s) containing corresponding validation rules (R27). Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 14] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 The submitter can also enter external meta-data (Section 9.1), which is required for automated posting of the draft (R28). If validation was successful, an "automatically post the draft now" button is provided (R29). Regardless of validation results, "adjust and post manually" and "cancel" buttons are provided (R30). The Check page provides a preview of the draft plain text format (R31), with a link to see how the entire draft (with all its formats) would look like if posted (R82). Hint: the Check page preview should be sufficiently long to let authors detect obvious draft mismatch or misinterpretation errors but short enough to avoid dominating the page. Displaying draft image from the first line up to the last line of the abstract may be sufficient. For draft updates, the Check page reports the the time and the submitter of the last update (R83). This information is especially useful when multiple authors are working on the same draft. The page also provides a link to generate a diff against the last posted version (R84). 9.1 External meta-data The Check page solicits the following meta-data from the submitter. This information must be supplied by submitter because it cannot be extracted from the draft: Submitter e-mail (R32). When submitter is not a lawful submitter (see Section 4), automated posting is not possible and the draft has to go through the Secretariat (R98). Hint: A set of checkboxes next to extracted author names along with a "none of the above" checkbox with an input field would suffice. List of drafts obsoleted by this draft (R33). This is useful to make obsoleted drafts invisible. This document does not specify any actions necessary to make an existing draft obsolete because existing draft manipulation is out of scope, and because security concerns and other complications of such actions would be better addressed by a separate specification. Primary e-mail address for discussion of this draft (R71). Hint: The Toolset can suggest WG mailing list address for WG drafts, [submitting] author address for individual drafts, or even the first e-mail address in draft text. Offering a few likely addresses instead of relying exclusively on user input would also reduce the number of typos. Except for the submitter e-mail, external meta-data is optional (R109). Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 15] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 10. Post Now action The Post Now action checks that the draft has been successfully validated (R34), validates external meta-data (including submitter e-mail) (R35), and posts the draft (R36). Submitter is notified of the action progress and final result (R37). External meta-data contains submitter e-mail address. As a part of the validation procedure, the Post Now action authorizes the submitter. The initial action implementation checks that the submitter has access to e-mail sent to that address (R38). Eventually, the Toolset should accept client certificates signed by IETF, PGP-signed e-mail, and/or other forms of client-side authentication to eliminate the weak and annoying e-mail access check (R110). If submitter authentication fails, the submission eventually and silently times out (R39). The Toolset provides both e-mail and web interfaces for confirming e-mail access (R99). Hint: To check submitter's access to e-mail the tool can e-mail a hard-to-guess cookie or token to the submitter's address. To continue with the submission, the submitter is requested to either go to the token-holding URL or respond the the e-mail. Immediately after sending an e-mail to the submitter, the The Post Now action generates an intermediate Receipt page that explains Toolset expectations and provides the submitter with the submission ID (R100). That number allows the Secretariat to troubleshoot stuck submissions and can also be used for checking submission status (R101). Immediately after posting the draft, the Toolset notifies all authors (with known e-mail addresses) of the posting (R102). Notification e-mail contains information available on the "successful posting" Receipt page described below (R103). If draft posting is successful, the submission state is marked as available for deletion (R105) so that the garbage collection routine eventually deletes it. 10.1 Receipt page A successful Post Now action reports the following information on the final Receipt page (R104): o draft ID and a link to the draft status page; o draft title, authors, and abstract; Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 16] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 o submission ID and a link to the draft submission status page. o submitter name and e-mail. The primary purpose of the Receipt page is to inform all draft authors that [supposedly] their draft has been posted. The secondary purpose is to let authors create a permanent record of the event and troubleshoot postings. The same information should be sent to other parties interested in the draft (e.g., WG mailing list), but 3rd party notification specifics are out of this draft scope. 11. Adjust action The Adjust action generates the Adjust page (R40), populating it with available extracted meta-data and external meta-data as well as validation results and preview. Some or all of the information may be missing, depending on draft interpretation and preview generation success. 12. Adjust page The Adjust page includes the same information as the Check page, but allows the submitter to adjust all extracted draft meta-data (and, naturally, external meta-data) at will (R41). Such adjustment is necessary when automated extraction failed to extract [correct] information. To avoid mismatch between draft and its meta-data, adjusted drafts cannot be automatically posted and require manual validation by Secretariat (R42). Secretariat staff can post drafts with adjusted meta-data as described in Section 15. The Adjust page allows the submitter to enter an informal comment explaining why adjustments are necessary and automated posting mode cannot be used (R48). The "post manually" and "cancel" buttons are provided (R43). The former is backed by the "Post Manually" action (Section 13). 13. Post Manually action The Post Manually action sends adjusted meta-data and draft pointer to the Secretariat for manual validation and posting (R44). A receipt page is generated instruction the submitter to wait (R45). Secretariat will notify the submitter once the draft is posted or rejected. This notification is sent by the Toolset if the Secretariat is using the Toolset to post the draft (R46). Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 17] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 14. Receipt page The Receipt page is generated by various actions to inform the submitter of current submission status and further actions. The contents of the page is likely to be highly dependent on the action and state for which receipt is being generated. This section documents general requirements applicable to all actions and states. The Receipt page should give the submitter a URI or another identifier that can be used by Secretariat for manual troubleshooting of the submission (R63). The identifier should be perpetual (R64) even though the associated details are likely to be eventually lost (e.g., draft submission data and logs are deleted from the staging area as a part of the garbage collection routine). The Receipt page should give the submitter a Secretariat point-of-contact to report submission problems (R65). 15. Bypassing the Toolset A buggy Toolset implementation or unusual circumstances may force a submitter to submit a draft to Secretariat for manual processing. This can be done by choosing the "manual posting" route supported by the Toolset (R47) or, as a last resort, by e-mailing the draft directly to Secretariat. In either case, an informal "cover letter" has to accompany the draft. The letter should explain why the automated interface cannot be used. When processing manual submissions, the Secretariat may be able to use the Toolset. A Manual Check page similar to the default Check page provides authenticated Secretariat staff with editable meta-data fields and a "force posting" action (R50). The forced posting action accepts meta-data fields "as is", does not verify submitter access to e-mail or WG draft authorization, and posts the draft as if no validation errors were found (R51). The Manual Check page should still contain all the errors and warnings seen by ordinary submitters (R106) so that the Secretariat knows what the Toolset is unhappy about (if anything). Using manual processing may result in significant posting delays. Generated submission receipts or notifications ought to give the submitter an expected processing time estimate (R53). The intent of this mode is to provide a way for submitters to bypass bugs or limitations of the automated mechanisms in order to post an "unusual" draft or to post a draft under "unusual" circumstances. One example would be a draft that does not contain standard IETF boilerplate but has a special IESG permission to post the draft with Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 18] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 the experimental boilerplate. Another example is a draft that fails automated validation tests due to a validator bug. The bypass mode is also likely to be used (effectively) by the majority of submitters during the Beta stage of the Toolset implementation, when few submitters know about (or are allowed to use) the Toolset. 16. E-mail interface The Toolset should have e-mail interface for automated posting of valid drafts (R55). While virtually every documented Toolset functionality can, technically, be implemented behind an e-mail interface, features other than posting of valid drafts are believed to be prohibitively awkward to implement or use via e-mail. The e-mail interface accepts a draft as a set of e-mail attachment(s) (one per draft format) (R56), uses sender's e-mail address to select submitter's identity (R57), checks the submission (R58), and posts the draft if the check is successful (R59). The submitter should be notified of the outcome of the draft submission via e-mail (R60). Other requirements for web interface (including requirements on draft validation, submitter authentication, draft posting, and notification) apply to e-mail interface. E-mail parts/attachments that are not recognized as draft formats are not considered as draft formats. Such parts are ignored by the Toolset (R107), except a warning is generated for each unrecognizable part containing more than whitespace (R108). These two requirements are meant to make the interface robust in the presence of e-mail signatures and other parts outside of the submitter control. Hint: Toolset actions can be implemented to support e-mail and web interfaces without code duplication. While both web and e-mail interfaces allow for fast posting of valid drafts, there are significant differences between the two interfaces. Primary advantages of e-mail interface are: off-line mode: A submitter can do all the manual work required to submit a draft while being disconnected from the network. The e-mail client actually submits the draft when connectivity is regained. poor connectivity: E-mail systems are often better suited for automated transmission and re-transmission of e-mails when network connectivity is poor due to high packet loss ratios, transmission delays, and other problems. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 19] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 convenience: Some IETFers consider e-mail interfaces as generally "more convenient". Primary advantages of web interface are: confirmation: A submitter is given a chance to verify that automated extraction of meta-data produced reasonable results. Other useful confirmations are possible (e.g., "Are you sure you want to post a revision of the draft that was updated 30 seconds ago by your co-author?"). validation: A submitter can validate the draft without posting it. quality: Non-critical warnings may prompt the submitter to postpone posting to improve draft quality. manual adjustments: The submitter can adjust extracted meta-data and ease Secretariat work on manually posting an unusual draft. meta-data: The submitter can specify optional external meta-data (that cannot be extracted from the draft itself). For example, an e-mail for draft discussion can be specified. context help: Web interface makes it easy to provide links to extra information about input fields, errors, posting options, deadlines, etc. convenience: Some IETFers consider web interfaces as generally "more convenient". 17. Implementation stages This section defines an implementation schedule for documented Toolset requirements. The schedule is divided into three consecutive phases. Requirements listed in later stages may be covered in earlier stages, but do not have to be. Beta Stage: Initial basic implementation to test major concepts and relieve the Secretariat from handling the most common submission case. This stage should take a professional about 30 calendar days to finish (i.e., to comply with all the listed requirements). 1. R14 and R15 for plain text format. Other formats are accepted but may not be interpreted. 2. R32, R98 (submitter:author mapping). Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 20] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 3. R38 (submitter authentication via e-mail access check) 4. R69, R70, and related requirements can be ignored, in which case plain text version is always required. 5. R88, R89 (WG info extraction from draft name). 6. R97 (DoS prevention). 7. R100 (intermediate receipt page for Post Now). 8. R105 (deleting submission state). 9. R109 (most external meta-data is optional). 10. R113 (errors make auto-posting impossible). Production Stage: Support for all major features. Once this stage is completed, the Secretariat should only handle unusual draft submissions. This stage should take a professional about 90 calendar days to finish. 1. R8, R10, R11, R85 - R87, R111 ( 2. R14 and R15 for plain text and XML formats. Other formats are accepted but may not be interpreted. 3. R21 (warn if draft revision is not expected). 4. R55 - R60, R107 - R108 (basic e-mail interface). 5. R69, R70. 6. R71 7. R74 - R77. 8. R83 (report last update author/timestamp). 9. R95 (warn of a co-author without an e-mail). 10. R96 (warn of small submissions gap). 11. R102 - R104 (posting notification). 12. R50, R51, and R106 (Manual Check page requirements). 13. R114 (whatever the error is, manual posting should be Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 21] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 possible). Enhancement Stage: A never-ending stage focusing on sophisticated features (e.g., draft interpretation or validation) that improve the overall quality of the Toolset. This stage is documented primarily to highlight the overall direction of the Toolset; its requirements are often imprecise and many are expected to change. 1. R14 and R15 for all formats. 2. R33 (making an existing draft obsolete). 3. R81 (show warnings to co-authors). 4. R82 (complete draft preview). 5. R84 (a link to generate a diff). 6. R90 (WG info extraction from draft databases). 7. R101 (functionality to check submission status). 8. R110 (submitter authentication via client-side certificates) 9. R112, R115 (HTML generation from XML sources) Implementation experience is likely to result in changes of the Toolset requirements. Such changes should be documented as a part of stage evaluation activities. 18. Security Considerations Some. TBD: Talk about why authentication and anti-DoS measures become important once things become automated. When everybody is using an informal e-mail interface, an automated attack will last only until the interface is changed. The informal interface can be changed very quickly. Only the attacker would be suffering from the change, since others do not automate and, hence, are flexible. Once things are automated and interfaces are documented, substantially changing an interface would require rewriting many software agents that use current interfaces. 19. IANA Considerations None. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 22] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 20. Compliance A Toolset implementation is compliant with this specification if it satisfies all normative requirements (i.e., the phrases marked with "Rnnn" as defined in Section 4). Compliance should be evaluated for each implementation stage as some requirements do not apply to some stages. IESG evaluates implementations and interprets requirements as necessary. Appendix A. Comparison with current procedures This section summarizes major differences between draft submission approach currently in use by IETF and the proposed Toolset, including violations of the current IETF rules. o The Toolset allows posting of XML and PDF draft formats. XML format is not currently accepted by the Secretariat, and legality of PDF acceptance by the Secretariat has been questioned. XML sources should be accepted to enable IETF tools and participants to have access to raw draft meta-data and content. They are also useful to the RFC Editor and, hence, it is a good idea to validate and get them "into the system" early. The latter argument applies to PDF drafts as well, although the first Toolset versions are not expected to interpret PDF drafts. [[XXX64: Check whether there are any rules allowing the Secretariat to accept PDF drafts today. --Alex]] o The Toolset allows posting of HTML draft formats (in addition to plain text or another currently allowed format). o The Toolset will automatically notify authors of posted drafts. Currently, neither the submitter nor any of the co-authors are explicitly notified when the draft is posted. Notification is meant, in part, to allow co-authors detect cases where their name is put on the authors list without permission. Eventually, there will be a general IETF mechanism to allow 3rd parties such as ADs, chairs, or reviewers to register for draft notifications. Appendix B. Acknowledgments The author gratefully acknowledges the contributions of Harald Tveit Alvestrand (Cisco), Brian E. Carpenter (IBM), Barbara B. Fuller (Foretec), Henrik Levkowetz, Larry Masinter (Adobe), Pekka Savola (Netcore), and Stanislav Shalunov (Internet2). Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 23] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Special thanks to Marshall Rose for his xml2rfc tool. Appendix C. Change log RFC Editor Note: This section is to be removed during the final publication of the document. Internal WG revision control ID: $Id: id.xml,v 1.23 2004/10/13 05:51:23 rousskov Exp $ version 04 * In Check action, documented once, early, and explicitly that errors make auto-posting impossible but should let the submitter to post manually. Removed references to vague "action fails" statements (Henrik Levkowetz). * HTTP error codes should not be used to indicate Check action errors because doing so would be a layering violation and, in some cases, may complicate both automated and manual interpretation of the Toolset responses. Rewrote R7 to require use of computer-friendly tags in response body instead of HTTP status codes. * Split "Preprocessing" subsection into "Preprocessing" and "Processing". The former deals with XML include PIs while the latter talks about plain text and HTML generation (Henrik Levkowetz). * Removed post-if-valid functionality (R78 - R80). Automation tools such as the ones that process e-mail-based submissions would benefit from having the knob, but they cannot use the Check action "as is", even with the knob, because there are other differences in the interface (e.g., submitter identification logic). In other words, more knobs would be needed, which would defeat the purpose of reusing the same action. When implementing web and e-mail interfaces, the Secretariat should still be able to reuse the base action code, of course. * Defined compliance. * Resolved XXX2: inform all authors that their draft was posted. Documented what information should go into the posting notification message/page. * Resolved XXX16 and XXX57: R23 now says that an IETF IPR Statement and other boilerplate required for drafts according Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 24] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 to RFC 3667 and 3668 (or successors) must appear in the draft text (Henrik Levkowetz). * Resolved XXX23 and XXX62: Manual Check page and actions used by secretariat do not verify submitter access to e-mail. Last resort option should be as flexible and forgiving as possible. * Resolved XXX26: it should be possible to respond to do-you-have-access-to-your-email message by e-mail, in addition to cut-and-pasting a URL. * Resolved XXX30 and XXX31: R98 now requires that when submitter is not an author, Secretariat has to be involved. * Resolved XXX37: E-mail submissions must use attachments, even if there is only one draft format. This may help to keep the Toolset simple (no smarts needed to isolate true draft text from notes in the beginning of the e-mail and signatures). * Resolved XXX38: do not require special Subject: lines for e-mail submission to keep the Toolset simple. Since we verify submitter access to e-mail, no automated spam is likely to result in a draft submission. * Resolved XXX43, XXX44, and XXX60: making an existing draft obsolete is out of this document scope. This complex feature can be documented and integrated later to satisfy R33. * Resolved XXX49 and XXX52: the first two implementation stages should take 30 and 90 days, provided a single full-time person effort. * Resolved XXX50: specify approximate effort required to complete the first two implementation stages. Let IESG and the Secretariat use our estimates to agree on a specific implementation schedule/deadlines. * Resolved XXX53: lack of author e-mail causes a warning, not error. See R95 for rationale. * Resolved XXX11: added page count and size of primary draft format to meta-data because this information is useful to some humans and tools, and because it is usually much easier and cheaper to get this information in static form (e.g., some draft meta-data XML file) than compute it dynamically. * Resolved XXX15: always allow posting of a new revision but warn if new revision is not expected. Moved the corresponding R21 Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 25] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 from absolute to desired requirements. * Resolved XXX33 and XXX59: prevent DoS attacks (absolute requirement R97) and warn about too-close submissions (desired feature R96). * Defined draft version, format and primary format terms. 2004/10/05 * Resolved XXX9: The Toolset should eventually offer a Validation-only page. * Resolved XXX19: The Toolset should eventually provide the submitter with a way to preview the entire draft, with all formats. * Resolved XXX40, XXX41, and XXX56: first use draft name to extract WG flag and WG name and hope for an IETF policy change. If IETF policy on naming drafts does not change soon, add code to query some databases to map individual-looking drafts to WG names. * Resolved XXX46 and XXX47: store and make public both original and preprocessed XML sources. Most tools are likely to use preprocessed XML format. Humans and some diff tools may prefer the original. 2004/09/30 * Added requirements R72 and R73 to handle multiple submitters submitting the same draft and a single submitter submitting two drafts at the same time, addressing XXX27. * Resolved XXX7: There seems to be no good reason to support cut-and-paste mode. Submission via file upload interface should suffice. * Semi-resolved XXX53: Toolset should accept PDFs because RFC Editor does. Still need to check whether the Secretariat accepts PDFs legally today (XXX64). 2004/09/29 * Clarified and polished the "Scope" section. * Updated "State of this draft" to document approaching-last-call state of the draft and to solicit editorial-level feedback. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 26] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 2004/09/27 * Marked formal toolset requirements using a Rnnn notation to (a) document implementation schedule, and (b) make compliant implementation and compliance evaluation easier. * Marked informal implementation hints with a "Hint:" tag, to avoid possible confusion with formal requirements. * Started documenting implementation schedule. For example, only plain text formats are interpreted during the first stage, then XML support is added, then other formats. Meanwhile, un-interpreted formats are accepted and posted as is as long as plain text version validates. * Added explicit requirements for managing abandoned submissions (Brian E. Carpenter) * Plain text or XML formats are always required (Brian E. Carpenter) * Added XXX55: Accepting PDFs is a change of current documented procedures? (Brian E. Carpenter) * Added an optional "discussion address" to the external meta-data to help reviewers know where to send comments (inspired by Brian E. Carpenter suggestion; Brian wanted this to be a required extractable meta-data) * Resolved XXX17, XXX28, and XXX29: Today, -00 WG drafts are approved by the Chair either before and after submission, depending on several factors. Based on WG chairs feedback we still need to support both modes. Thus, there is no policy change to talk about (and more work for the tool implementors to support both modes). Still need to add specific toolset requirements in case there is no approval recorded. * Resolved XXX18, XXX32, and XXX45: We are going to move "request for publication" functionality to a separate [simple] tool that works with an existing/posted draft. * Resolved XXX6: We are going to move the "withdraw this ID" functionality desired by Secretariat to a separate [simple] tool that works with an existing/posted draft. * Added a "comment" field to the Adjust page so that the submitter can tell Secretariat why manual action is necessary. This may both save time Secretariat and let them improve the Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 27] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 toolset to minimize manual submissions (including fixing validation/extraction bugs). * Added the Receipt page to the list of documented pages, for completeness. * Emphasized that common sequence of pages to go through is as short as possible for a given set of features, and that "page" means "distinct dialog", not necessarily a "distinct URL". Some reviewers thought "there are too many pages". 2004/09/20 * Added "E-mail Interface" section to document how key toolset functionality can be accessed via e-mail. Compared e-mail and web interfaces. (Suggested by Pekka Savola) * Split "WG ID" meta-data into "WG ID" and "WG Flag". The former seems to be easy to extract from the draft name. Noted that the latter (i.e., "this is a working group draft" status) cannot be inferred from some WG drafts (Pekka Savola). * Added "List of drafts obsoleted by this draft" external meta-data item (Pekka Savola), but questioned whether we are ready to automate that. * Added more conflicting opinions to XXX15 and proposed a solution. * Added "Preprocessing" subsection to reflect the discussion on how/whether handle include PIs in XML draft sources. Needs more discussion/work. * Further clarified how an author can request the draft revision to be published (i.e., forwarded to IESG or RFC Editor for review and publication as an RFC or BCP). It's just a checkbox on the web interface. Raised doubts we can pull this off (see XXX45). * Suggested in XXX2 that we would inform all authors but not seek their consent (except for the submitter) when posting their draft. 2004/09/09 * Polished high-level page/action summary and replaced text-based steps diagram with something that looks more like a diagram. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 28] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 * Added "Comparison with current procedures" section placeholder for summarizing what this draft improves/changes/violates. * Frequent draft updates is not always a good thing (Henrik Levkowetz) * Added ideas regarding frequent draft updates warnings (Stanislav Shalunov) * Added "State of this draft" section to encourage review. 2004/09/02 * Documented all major toolset pages and corresponding actions. 2004/09/01 * Deleted all primary modes except for what used to be called "Posting Automation". Focus on the latter and mention other modes as exceptions or side-effects. * Changed draft outline and depth to describe specific submission steps and corresponding web pages rather than more general ideas/requirements. * Assume, for now, that Chair authorization of WG draft work must exist for WG draft to be published. This needs to be documented and perhaps relaxed to allow post-submission approvals. 2004/08/30 * Use "toolset" instead of a less accurate "interfaces" in the draft title and throughout the text (Henrik Levkowetz) * Use "post" instead of "publish"" in the draft title and throughout the text (Barbara B. Fuller and Larry Masinter) * Nits, clarifications, datapoints (Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Henrik Levkowetz, Larry Masinter, and Barbara B. Fuller for the Secretariat) 2004/08/25 * Initial revision. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 29] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Author's Address Alex Rousskov The Measurement Factory EMail: rousskov@measurement-factory.com URI: http://www.measurement-factory.com/ Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 30] Internet-Draft Draft Submission Toolset: Requirements October 2004 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Disclaimer of Validity This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2004). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the Internet Society. Rousskov Expires April 13, 2005 [Page 31] ------------KHmjuZG7AlIXMXeV0n2puZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team ------------KHmjuZG7AlIXMXeV0n2puZ-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 12:43:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14469; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:43:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHmPA-0000Jl-Jl; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:55:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHm8P-0004I3-IA; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:37:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHm0E-0002ZY-M0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:29:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13267 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHmBC-0008Vh-Jt for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:40:48 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1859D61AD5 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12752-08 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:28:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A06D61AD4 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:28:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:28:45 -0700 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Agenda for 13 October 2004 Telechat Message-ID: <86B367E3D077181F3C454002@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20041013151920.17201b2f@chardonnay> References: <20041013151920.17201b2f@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am dialed in, but I am very silent, since I am sitting in another meeting and attempting to listen to one conversation per ear. Is there a jabber room? --On 13. oktober 2004 15:19 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, > > Here is the proposed Agenda for today's telechat. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Connection details: > > To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. > > One can also join the call by dialing: > sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu > on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. > > If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference > system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to > https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 > and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Agenda: > > 1. Agenda bashing > > 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. > > 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up > > -04 is out. Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? > > 4. Tool priority list > > 5. Action item review. > > * All: Review the -03 version of the I-D submission draft, and > comment. Preferably by Saturday, but latest by Sunday > this week. > > Review by Henrik received > > * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page > generation tool expects. Generate pages. > > * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. > > * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. > > Done > > * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send > message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. > > 6. Any other business. > > 7. Action items for next week: > > 8. Next meeting: > > Teleconference Wednesday 20 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as > today). > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 12:46:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14864; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHmS5-0000Oc-UR; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:58:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHmFE-0005oc-Fa; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:44:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHmCr-000520-Is for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:42:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14363 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHmNq-0000HF-Gf for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:53:51 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4432837F27; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:41:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3423337F0E for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:41:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D10B37E65 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:41:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chardonnay ([127.0.0.1]) by chardonnay.levkowetz.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CHmCK-0005WN-00 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:41:56 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:41:56 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12a (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from 13 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's telechat. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Added Larry's point about toosl for non-IETFers under item 6. 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up -04 is out. Are we ready for a "wg last call" on this? Not quite, but -05 should be. 4. Tool priority list - 5. Action item review. * All: Review the -03 version of the I-D submission draft, and comment. Preferably by Saturday, but latest by Sunday this week. Review by Henrik received * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. Not done * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. Not done * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. Done * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. Not done 6. Any other business. Larry: we need some new categories of tools for users: * "Newcomers" * "General Public" - Implementors - Trade press - Marketers - Product buyers - General public Tools for these categories need to have an interface which is very easy, assuming no knowledge. This might be new tools, or easy interfaces to existing tools. For instance, a newcomer might need an especially easy way to get hold of the current version of a draft, and all associated information. Stas: Given the way drafts are spread and copied out of the repositories, the best place for pointers to archives might be inside the drafts themselves. One example could be that the general public doesn't know the difference between a standard and an RFC. Larry: A lot of the problems discussed in NEWTRK could be solved by tools, which is one reason why I volunteered for the tools team ... Stas: I'm afraid we'd be getting into defining procedures, rather than tools .... Stas?: Change "General Public" to "Standards Users". Larry: Add "Trade Press" 7. Action items for next week: * Alex: Send out remaining draft items which needs resolution to the list, for comment * All: Help resolve the remaining draft items. * Stas, Larry: If you can find time to review the -04 version of the I-D submission draft and comment by Sunday this week it would be good. * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 20 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 18:04:36 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17181; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHrPc-0001Fg-5T; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:16:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHqfO-0003Ft-Jp; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:28:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHq2A-0003CW-Bb for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:47:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05335 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHqDA-0005td-Pd for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:59:06 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 021CA37EEB; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:47:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57F837E70; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:47:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D375138003; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:47:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CHq1Y-0004eV-Ae; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:47:06 +0200 Message-ID: <416D942D.2080101@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:46:37 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Agenda for 13 October 2004 Telechat References: <20041013151920.17201b2f@chardonnay> <86B367E3D077181F3C454002@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <86B367E3D077181F3C454002@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I am dialed in, but I am very silent, since I am sitting in another > meeting and attempting to listen to one conversation per ear. > > Is there a jabber room? No, sorry. And I'm afraid the delay on the mailing list is such that I didn't see this mail till after the meeting :-( Best, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 17 13:14:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08408; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJEnV-0003Dz-IE; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:26:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJEah-0002oN-NW; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:13:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJEaU-0002if-Ib for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:12:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08279 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJEmJ-0003Bq-Nv for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:25:08 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9HHCoJ2096189 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:12:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9HHCoxq096188; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:12:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:12:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> Message-ID: <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Guys, I currently do not have answers or specific text corresponding to the following XXXs in the ID submission draft. If somebody could provide specific text (or just an answer/reference where XXX is a question), that would be great. XXX66: Is XML currently allowed format for drafts? Can I submit plain text and XML formats for both to be posted? XXX64: Is PDF currently allowed format for drafts? XXX12: A comprehensive list of specific references that define syntax and semantics requirements for RFCs. Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits document. Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a list but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits checking tool does not check what the Secretariat is checking for and/or does not check it the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to put here. If you take on an item, please post so that others and myself do not start working on it. Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 17 14:26:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12993; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJFvR-0004Ob-MT; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:38:37 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJFiP-0002NE-D1; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:25:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJFhO-0002G4-E1 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:24:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12890 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colossus.foretec.com ([132.151.1.197] helo=foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJFtD-0004M0-EY for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:36:20 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.62] (helo=D1GSDG11.foretec.com) by foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CJFhN-00040e-00; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:24:05 -0400 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041017135956.02afc130@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:17:55 -0400 To: Alex Rousskov From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help In-Reply-To: <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hi Alex: At 01:12 PM 10/17/2004, you wrote: >Guys, > > I currently do not have answers or specific text corresponding to > the following XXXs in the ID submission draft. If somebody could provide > specific text (or just an answer/reference where XXX is a question), that > would be great. > >XXX66: Is XML currently allowed format for drafts? Can I submit plain text >and XML formats for both to be posted? No. XML format is not currently accepted. >XXX64: Is PDF currently allowed format for drafts? Yes. PDF format is currently accepted. >XXX12: A comprehensive list of specific references that define syntax and >semantics requirements for RFCs. > >Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits document. >Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: >http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a list >but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits checking tool does >not check what the Secretariat is checking for and/or does not check it >the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to put here. The Secretariat bases its reviews on the "Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts." If drafts adhere to these guidelines, then they are accepted. >If you take on an item, please post so that others and myself do not start >working on it. > >Thank you, > >Alex. Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 17 20:22:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07289; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJLUH-0002Gv-6S; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:34:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJLG1-0007Ay-OC; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:20:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJLD3-0006sS-Hx for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:17:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06863 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJLOw-00029f-7J for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:29:26 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E6C7137F5C; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88A237E6C; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AA537E45; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:16:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CJLCT-0006lB-Ch; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:16:33 +0200 Message-ID: <41730B60.10006@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:16:32 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041017135956.02afc130@colossus.foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041017135956.02afc130@colossus.foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Alex: > > At 01:12 PM 10/17/2004, you wrote: [snip] >> XXX12: A comprehensive list of specific references that define syntax >> and semantics requirements for RFCs. Mmhm. I think this would be a combination of the Guidelines mentioned by Barbara below; the ID-checklist, and one or two documents on the RFC editor website. I'm currently bound up in last-minute revisions of a -00 draft submission, and can't promise to take this on... >> Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits document. >> Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: >> http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a >> list but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits checking >> tool does not check what the Secretariat is checking for and/or does >> not check it the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to put here. > > > The Secretariat bases its reviews on the "Guidelines to Authors of > Internet-Drafts." If drafts adhere to these guidelines, then they are > accepted. The idnits tool is based on the ID-Checklist document, and has a somewhat different applicability -- this document lists nits which should be fixed in documents submitted for publication as RFC, rather than any draft submitted for placement in the draft repository. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 18 03:23:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22323; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJS3G-0001nz-SA; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:35:31 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJRqO-00041g-T7; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:22:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJRnc-0003bt-KE for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:19:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22040 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJRzY-0001iO-7e for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 03:31:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C7861BDA; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:18:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18626-10; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:18:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7304F61B93; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:18:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:18:45 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help Message-ID: <31E5099121B686211B75C425@askvoll.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On s=F8ndag, oktober 17, 2004 11:12:50 -0600 Alex Rousskov=20 wrote: > Guys, > > I currently do not have answers or specific text corresponding to the > following XXXs in the ID submission draft. If somebody could provide > specific text (or just an answer/reference where XXX is a question), that > would be great. > > XXX66: Is XML currently allowed format for drafts? Can I submit plain > text and XML formats for both to be posted? No, but it should be changed. > > XXX64: Is PDF currently allowed format for drafts? Yes. > > XXX12: A comprehensive list of specific references that define syntax and > semantics requirements for RFCs. rfc 2223 draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-08 there is no fifth entry > > Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits document. > Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: > http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a list > but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits checking tool > does not check what the Secretariat is checking for and/or does not check > it the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to put here. the secretariat checks for "blocking" errors - things that impact whether=20 or not we know that the IETF has permission to do its thing, or things that = cause things to be messed up like mismatch of filename or version between=20 request and the docuemnt itself. the idnits script checks for all sorts of things that "usually shouldn't be = this way". > > > If you take on an item, please post so that others and myself do not > start working on it. > > Thank you, > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 18 10:26:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21250; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJYfH-0001SI-7r; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:39:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJYRd-0004ma-Vx; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:25:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJYND-0001ac-3t for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:20:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20536 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJYZA-0001JD-Cc for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:32:55 -0400 Received: from d1gsdg11.foretec.com (h000c41701e67.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.91.122.107]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20041018141950014004qdjje>; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:19:54 +0000 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018100437.02abb298@colossus.foretec.com> X-Sender: bfuller@colossus.foretec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:13:13 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz From: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help In-Reply-To: <41730B60.10006@levkowetz.com> References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041017135956.02afc130@colossus.foretec.com> <41730B60.10006@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Hi Henrik: At 08:16 PM 10/17/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>>Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits document. >>>Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: >>>http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a list >>>but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits checking tool >>>does not check what the Secretariat is checking for and/or does not >>>check it the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to put here. >> >>The Secretariat bases its reviews on the "Guidelines to Authors of >>Internet-Drafts." If drafts adhere to these guidelines, then they are >>accepted. > >The idnits tool is based on the ID-Checklist document, and has a >somewhat different applicability -- this document lists nits which >should be fixed in documents submitted for publication as RFC, rather >than any draft submitted for placement in the draft repository. Yes, we of course know this. We don't review documents for compliance with the "ID Checklist" that have been submitted for posting in the Internet-Drafts directory. Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 18 12:47:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00834; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJary-0004CV-5N; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:00:26 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJaRx-0004cj-4O; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:33:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJZvy-0000hm-4u for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:00:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27411 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJa7s-0003H8-SE for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:12:50 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id CE9D337EFD; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:59:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6DB37E44; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:59:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5869837E56; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:59:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CJZvJ-0006qG-Gs; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:59:49 +0200 Message-ID: <4173E875.6070408@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:59:49 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Barbara B. Fuller" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] ID submission draft help References: <20041013184156.3e6d744b@chardonnay> <20041017110219.T94604@measurement-factory.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041017135956.02afc130@colossus.foretec.com> <41730B60.10006@levkowetz.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041018100437.02abb298@colossus.foretec.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018100437.02abb298@colossus.foretec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barbara, Barbara B. Fuller wrote: > Hi Henrik: > > At 08:16 PM 10/17/2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >>>> Unmarked XXX: "List testable nits here or refer to the nits >>>> document. Henrik's idnits tool is a starting point: >>>> http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/". Henrik already provided a >>>> list but then, IIRC, the Secretariat said that Henrik's nits >>>> checking tool does not check what the Secretariat is checking for >>>> and/or does not check it the right way. Thus, I am not sure what to >>>> put here. >>> >>> >>> The Secretariat bases its reviews on the "Guidelines to Authors of >>> Internet-Drafts." If drafts adhere to these guidelines, then they >>> are accepted. >> >> >> The idnits tool is based on the ID-Checklist document, and has a >> somewhat different applicability -- this document lists nits which >> should be fixed in documents submitted for publication as RFC, rather >> than any draft submitted for placement in the draft repository. > > > Yes, we of course know this. We don't review documents for compliance > with the "ID Checklist" that have been submitted for posting in the > Internet-Drafts directory. Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know this, I meant to acknowledge that idnits wasn't quite the appropriate tool for the task of vetting regular I-D submissions :-) The way idnits is currently used, to my knowledge, is by chairs and some ADs, to verify documents submitted for publication as RFC. It might make sense to automate this in the future, maybe? Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 18 17:19:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24060; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJf65-0001lR-E0; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:31:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJeOP-0008Hu-T0; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:46:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CJe9k-0005Dx-AL for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:31:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20417 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CJeL7-0000og-59 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:43:03 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:14:33 PDT Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9IFuwQY002023 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9IG1d0S002876 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.179.32]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I5S00C3ZF6QEY@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:01:38 -0700 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I5S00C40F6REY@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcS1IxtR11LcL2D7Tgax0Gs5Qzz9BgACI54g X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] FW: Post-facto reporting of media type security considerations X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Is this a candidate tool? Some way for attaching errata and updates to the media type registry? Larry -----Original Message----- From: ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-types-bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Bruce Lilly Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:08 AM To: ietf-types@alvestrand.no Cc: iana@iana.org Subject: Post-facto reporting of media type security considerations [This message has been sent to the ietf-types mailing list with a courtesy copy to IANA (as IANA issues are raised); I have suggested responses be directed to the ietf-types list] There are some media types for which security issues have become known since the original type registrations. RFC 2048 has a provision for reporting such issues: 2.2.6. Security Requirements [...] The security considerations section of all registrations is subject to continuing evaluation and modification, and in particular may be extended by use of the "comments on media types" mechanism described in subsequent sections. and 2.4. Comments on Media Type Registrations Comments on registered media types may be submitted by members of the community to IANA. These comments will be passed on to the "owner" of the media type if possible. Submitters of comments may request that their comment be attached to the media type registration itself, and if IANA approves of this the comment will be made accessible in conjunction with the type registration itself. RFC 2048 was issued nearly eight years ago, so I wonder if the procedure listed there is still considered appropriate. In particular, I have several questions that members of this list might be qualified to answer: 1. Has this mechanism ever been used? [I have scanned several dozen media registrations, but could find no example of anything that looks like commentary attached to the media type registration] 2. Media types can be registered via a textual form alone, or in an RFC. It seems unlikely that IANA can attach comments to an RFC, as RFCs are supposed to remain unchanged once published. There is a somewhat obscure errata page, but that's managed by the RFC Editor, not IANA. I therefore believe that the RFC 2048 procedure as written is not entirely adequate. Comments? 3. Does IANA itself currently have the expertise to evaluate accuracy and applicability of submitted comments? If not, who will IANA turn to for advice, and would it be prudent/advisable/acceptable for "submitters of comments" to copy them (assuming that submission of comments to IANA is still considered the applicable procedure)? 4. The RFC 2048 text mentions that comments will be forwarded to the media type "owner", and mentions IANA approval of comments. What procedures exist for conflict resolution? For example, suppose that the submitter of a textual registration which claimed "no known security issues" believes in security through obscurity (or is constrained by such a corporate employer's policy) and objects to having security comments attached to the registration (assume that substantial third-party corroboration of real security issues is provided with the comments); does the type "owner" have final say in the matter, does IANA have the authority to override such non-substantive objections, is there provision for IETF AD or IESG review if necessary, etc.? _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 20 23:02:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17829; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKTQA-000437-5b; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:15:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKIUO-0000EO-I9; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:35:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKHtR-0004MC-G1 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:56:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12183 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKI5m-0002Qt-4m for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:09:35 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id D770937EF5; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C3037E79 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36EA38003 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CKHso-0001jZ-JV for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:10 +0200 Message-ID: <41767C88.6090309@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:08 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 20 October 2004 Telechat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's telechat. I have personally been very busy this week, in part with getting a draft in before the deadline, and in part with personal matters, so I might as well confess up front that I've not had a lot of time to accomplish my targets. That should change by Monday next week, though. Henrik --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up 4. Action item review. * Alex: Send out remaining draft items which needs resolution to the list, for comment * All: Help resolve the remaining draft items. * Stas, Larry: If you can find time to review the -04 version of the I-D submission draft and comment by Sunday this week it would be good. * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 27 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 21 07:33:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04278; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKbOY-00057C-4e; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:46:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKUHe-0005W3-9N; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:10:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKIvz-00027A-E5 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17701 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKJ8P-0003oF-A0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:16:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C1A1CD8A2 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25117-06 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E0B1CD885 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF Tools References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 20 Oct 2004 01:45:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Addendum: It wasn't clear to me if the email interface would take a (single-format) submission that came in the body of a non-MIME email message. (I think it definitely should.) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 21 07:33:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04308; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKbOi-00057e-Fu; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:46:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKUHh-0005XL-1R; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:10:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKIvz-00027U-KJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17698 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKJ8P-0003oG-7q for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:16:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5E21CD885 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25249-01 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B081CD8BB for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:26 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF Tools From: stanislav shalunov Date: 20 Oct 2004 01:38:10 -0400 Message-ID: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 442 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: da36eda0a3266ed30a56c496b15b76c7 Subject: [Tools-team] draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4a4195ffb11c7b0baf82f77b2a730aa9 Alex, Here are some comments on the draft. A very general comment: I suspect that since we're all aware of the context, it's difficult for us to understand what would baffle an outside developer. There's a lot of jargon that we rely on, and it would be easy for us to miss defining a few terms. Later on, when we agree on the substance and fill in all the blanks, we should ask some technical person who has never participated in the IETF (or perhaps a newcomer) to review the document. # 1. Introduction # unnecessary load on the IETF Secretariat. The IETF TOOLs team What is the correct capitalization of ``Tools''? It's not an abbreviation, so it should not be in caps; it's not a trademark, so it should not be in small caps. It's a proper name (in this particular context), so it should be capitalized: Tools. # 3. Scope # # The Draft Submission Toolset discussed in this document is about # getting a single new revision of an Internet-Draft from an IETF # participant to the IETF draft repository. Is initial submission a revision? How about s/revision/version/? # submitter: A human or software initiating submission of an ``Human or software agent'' or ``A human or a piece of software'' # Internet-Draft for validation or posting. ^ version? Or are you really talking about the submitter of -00 (which is how this reads to me)? If the latter, maybe ``original submitter''? # authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset # as such. A submitter authenticated by the Toolset as a lawful submitter. # draft version: [[XXX68: Define and check whether version or revision # should be used. --Alex]] I suggest ``version,'' as ``revision'' strongly connotes the existence of an original that is being revised. Suggested definition: A string consisting of digits and representing a non-negative integer in decimal; single-digit numbers are padded with a single zero on the left. Examples of valid draft versions: 00, 03, 12, 911. Examples of invalid draft versions: 0, -1, 001. # draft format: Any draft source or presentation format, including # original and preprocessed XML, original or generated plain text as # well as PDF, Postscript, and HTML formats. [[XXX67: change "draft # version" to "draft format" where appropriate. --Alex]] So, we disallow the posting of Microsoft Word files? I hear some people use a Word template to create I-Ds. Note that while Word is proprietary, so are PostScript and PDF. What about nroff? (I also thought that PostScript was BiCapitalized.) I would also add DVI, if we allow PDF. It's proprietary, too, but at least very stable. # primary draft format: The first available draft format from the # following list: plain text, Postscript, PDF, XML. Exchange PostScript and PDF? PDF is more common today (and is likely to remain in the future, unless PDF and PostScript fall into equal disuse). # immediately: without human interaction or artificial software delays. and typically within seconds? # To get an Internet-Draft posted on IETF web site, an IETF participant ^ the? # e-mails draft text to the IETF Secretariat, along with an informal ^ I'd strike the hyphen, but that's just me (and the Oxford guys). # Collectively, IETF participants submit thousands of Internet-Drafts # per year (in the year 2000, about three thousand drafts were # submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). Lowercase `k'. A reference? (``According to private communication from the Secretariat''?) # posting delays. For example, many draft subversions are ^^^^^^^^^^^ minor versions? sub-versions? revisions between officially posted versions? # and submitters are not notified of any violations. As a result, IESG # and RFC Editor may have to spend resources (and delay standard ^^^^^^^^ strike # approval) resolving violations with draft authors. Often, these # violations can be detected automatically and would have been fixed by # draft authors if authors knew about them before requesting to publish ^ the # the draft as a standard. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ strike [We're talking about all drafts, not just standards-track, aren't we?] # Initial submissions of WG drafts require WG Chair approval, which ^^^^^^^^^ Should this be defined in the definitions section? # However, future automation may result in a different trade off. - # Upload page: Interface to copy draft from submitters computer into ^ apostrophe # Check page: Displays draft interpretation and validation results # (Section 9). Draft preview may also be given on this page. After # reviewing draft interpretation and validation results, the # submitter has four basic choices (a) auto-post draft "as is" now; # (b) make manual corrections and submit the draft to Secretariat # for manual posting later; (c) cancel submission; or (d) do # nothing. The automated posting option may not be available for # drafts with validation errors. What's the difference between ``do nothing'' and ``cancel'' from a user's point of view? # # /---> Post Now # / # Upload --> Check -+-----> Adjust ---> Send to Secretariat # \ # \---> Cancel If we're going to have a flow-chart, it should be done as such, with a diamond (``Is the draft valid and the user authorized to post?'') before ``Post''. (Or the chart could just be removed.) # If the submitter does not select any explicit action for 1 hour, then # the submission is considered abandoned, and all corresponding state # may be deleted by garbage collection (R66). The staging area # maintenance algorithms must be robust in the presence of DoS attacks # attempting to overwhelm the area with fake submissions in various # stages (R67). I think R67 needs to be clarified. What's the property that we're looking for? Can it be satisfied? Is it enough? Here are some straw men: An attacker who controls only a small number of IP addresses may not be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space so that service is denied to other users. [Not enough: IPv6 lets you have plenty of IP addresses.] An attacker may not be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space so that service is denied to other users. [Not clear how this could be satisfied by an implementation---no restrictions are placed on the attacker, so he might have the ability to send lots of draft submissions that look just like legitimate ones. Also, not enough as the attacker might saturate some other resource.] # The "web pages" this text is referring to are distinct dialogs, that # may be visible to the submitter under the same or different URL, and # supported by a single or several CGI scripts (or even applets). Are we talking client-side Java applets here? I'd hate it if the interface relied on anything that fancy and that unstable. # To upload the draft, the submitter goes to a well-known page on the # IETF web site (R1). There, the draft text can be uploaded using an # HTML file input form. ^^^^^ upload? This sounds a lot like a text input box to me. # The Toolset should have a Validation page, identical to the Upload ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ linked from the well-known upload page? # be be posted (R76); they would need to be uploaded via Upload page ^^^^^ strike one ``be'' # for that, and the validation results page should explain that (R77). # This page, hosted at a well-known location, would be useful for tools Should there only be one well-known location to identify? Should validation be able to take drafts from URLs? (Same for posting.) # The Check action preprocesses XML draft source (if any), generates # plain text format (if needed), stores submitted draft (all formats) # in the staging area, and then extracts meta-data and validates each # format (R6). It's not clear to me if you intended the requirements to make it possible to submit XML instead of plain text or in addition to plain text. ``if needed'' -- when is it needed? I found R70 later. Maybe a forward pointer? # It is an error to submit a draft which has neither plain text nor XML # sources format (R68). XML source is acceptable without accompanying # plain text only if the Toolset successfully generates a draft in # plain text format from the XML source, as a part of the processing # step (R69). What happens if generated plain text and submitted plain text do not match? # If XML sources are available, the Toolset generates HTML draft format # (R112). What is the purpose of this? We currently have a stable format for I-Ds. Introducing HTML I-Ds will make them preferred for a subset of participants, and then we'll be looking at different documents (a complaint of an HTML reader about the formatting of a diagram might make no sense to a plain text reader and vice versa). # The Check action stores all submitted formats of the draft in a # staging area dedicated to the Toolset (R12). If, after garbage # collection, the staging area is full (i.e., the total used size # reached configured maximum capacity), the submitter and the # Secretariat are notified of a fatal error (R13). How does this dovetail with robustness against DoS? # Each stored draft format is interpreted to extract draft meta-data # (R14). Are you serious about extracting anything useful from PDF? # If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction # fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). What happens then? # WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for # individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for # non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in # "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in # "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. So, what about draft-rousskov-draft-submission-13? This needs to be defined so that it can be understood by an outside implementor who's never seen an I-D. # WG flag: True for IETF WG drafts and false for all other drafts. For # example, "true" for "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13". Does this count the number of dashes in a filename or are we talking about something else. # authors: A list of all draft authors. For each author, their first # name, last name, and e-mail are extracted. First name or initial? Should it look at the addresses where a full name might be found even if only an initial is on the title page? # submission date: Draft submission date. Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? # If e-mail of an author cannot be extracted, the Toolset reports a # warning (R95). I think this should be an error to prevent disputes. If someone wants to include me as a co-author without my consent and puts shalunov@aol.com as my email address, I can later point to that address and claim it as suggestion of malicious intent. (Eliciting a mandatory response from co-authors would turn the suggestion into proof.) If an address is lacking it's more difficult for me to convince others that I really did not give consent to posting. # E-mails Email addresses (uncountable). # XML source needs to be preprocessed to resolve XML processor # instructions to include references. The action needs to store all # draft formats so that successfully validated drafts can later be # auto-posted at submitter request. Is this not included in duplicate? # mis-detected violations). These explanations may speedup speed up # posting decision and may help help Secretariat to improve Toolset ^^^^^^^^^ # 2. A draft must be submitted by an authorized submitter (R19). # [[XXX13: move this lower, we do not know the submitter at this # stage --Alex]][[XXX14: Don't forget the co-author, changed # editor, and drafts being posted anonymously (secretariat needs to # know who submitter is, but name doesn't necessarily appear on # draft) --Harald]] Also, third-party submissions (e.g., a WG chair submitting a draft not in his name). Would this be allowed? # 6. Posting this draft must not result in any Denial of Service # attack threshold to be crossed (R97). "Individual" DoS threshold # for a given draft is 3 revisions per day. Is this for a given draft name? This is no DoS protection, as an attacker could vary the name. (Legitimate users might be affected in rare cases.) # "Global" DoS # thresholds for all drafts are 500 submissions and 1GByte worth of # data in past 24 hours. Other thresholds may be introduced and # these initial thresholds may be adjusted as necessary. The # thresholds are likely to become more smart/dynamic with # experience. Shutting down under excessive load as a DoS protection mechanism? # Hint: Bandwidth available for submissions may need to be throttled to # make reaching the daily size quota (with malicious intent) difficult. Then it becomes easier to saturate the link capacity resource. Even a tiny 1Mb/s gives 10GB/day. Do you really want it throttled to 100kb/s? # Violating any of the following requirements does not prevent the # submitter to auto-post the draft (R24). ^^^^^^^^^^^^ from auto-posting # 2. New draft revisions are expected (R21). For example, revision 00 # of an individual draft is always expected, while posting a # revision of a draft already under IESG review should generate a # warning. This should be an error, not a warning. If a draft was ever posted with a given version number, and some people grabbed it, replacing it for the future is Bad. Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. Skipping a version number should be a warning (might be legitimately done if the IETF I-D submission system was down for a while and intermediate versions were posted informally). # Extracted meta-data items that were not successfully extracted or # that failed validation checks must be marked specially (rather than # silently omitted) (R26). I don't understand how does one extract something unsuccessfully and have it (presumably as a non-empty string). # The submitter can also enter external meta-data (Section 9.1), which # is required for automated posting of the draft (R28). It seems that the only required item in the external meta-data section is submitter email address. But if that can't be extracted, the draft goes into manual service queue anyway. What does R28 then mean? # page. Displaying draft image from the first line up to the last line ^^^^^^^^^^^ An actual image like a PNG file? # For draft updates, the Check page reports the the time and the ^^^^^^^ # submitter of the last update (R83). This information is especially # useful when multiple authors are working on the same draft. The page # also provides a link to generate a diff against the last posted # version (R84). Talk more about diff format perhaps? # 10. Post Now action # # The Post Now action checks that the draft has been successfully # validated (R34), validates external meta-data (including submitter # e-mail) (R35), How do you validate submitter email if it's not from the draft? I'd say if it's not the first author's email (or perhaps some authorized user like a WG chair, an AD, etc.), it should be queued for manual service. # The Toolset provides both e-mail and web interfaces for confirming # e-mail access (R99). Hint: To check submitter's access to e-mail the # tool can e-mail a hard-to-guess cookie or token to the submitter's # address. To continue with the submission, the submitter is requested # to either go to the token-holding URL or respond the the e-mail. Or paste the cookie into a form field (which I would personally prefer as a user). # The Receipt page should give the submitter a URI or another # identifier that can be used by Secretariat for manual troubleshooting # of the submission (R63). The identifier should be perpetual (R64) # even though the associated details are likely to be eventually lost # (e.g., draft submission data and logs are deleted from the staging # area as a part of the garbage collection routine). What would happen if I enter this perpetual URI into the browser after everything is deleted and would it be any different if I changed one digit in the session-id? # validation errors were found (R51). The Manual Check page should # still contain all the errors and warnings seen by ordinary submitters ^ identical to those # Using manual processing may result in significant posting delays. # Generated submission receipts or notifications ought to give the # submitter an expected processing time estimate (R53). How can the tool do this? # The e-mail interface accepts a draft as a set of e-mail attachment(s) # (one per draft format) (R56), uses sender's e-mail address to select # submitter's identity (R57), checks the submission (R58), and posts # the draft if the check is successful (R59). The submitter should be # notified of the outcome of the draft submission via e-mail (R60). # Other requirements for web interface (including requirements on draft # validation, submitter authentication, draft posting, and # notification) apply to e-mail interface. It might help if you added some text to the effect of the following: Therefore, a submission might consist of the following messages, if PGP or S/MIME is not used for authentication: (1) [from the submitter] the draft; (2) [from the Toolset] a challenge to verify access to email address; (3) [from the submitter] a response to the challenge; (4) [from the Toolset] a check page with possible warnings and a receipt or a check page with errors. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed in boustrophedon. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 21 07:36:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04961; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKbRc-0005FZ-Jg; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:49:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKUI6-0005fp-OC; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:11:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKJJ0-0000eD-TC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:27:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20827 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKJVN-0004Mp-1Z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:40:05 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 866FA381D6; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:26:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EB337EAD for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:26:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686C737E49 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:26:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CKJIP-0003nj-9j for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:26:41 +0200 Message-ID: <417691BE.8050608@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:26:38 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 20 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from todays meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Nothing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. Nothing 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up Will be submitted by Friday, ready for IETF last call. We'll request a last call from Harald. 4. Action item review. * Alex: Send out remaining draft items which needs resolution to the list, for comment Done * All: Help resolve the remaining draft items. Done * Stas, Larry: If you can find time to review the -04 version of the I-D submission draft and comment by Sunday this week it would be good. - * Alex: Apply comments to draft, new draft out by Monday. - * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. - * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. - * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. - 6. Any other business. * Do anything during meeting? Yes, probably gen-area presentation, maybe plenary. * Add more people to the team? Larry: solicit new members from e.g. wgchairs, rather than on the general IETF list. 7. Action items for next week: * Alex: Send out version -05 of the draft by Friday. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. * Henrik: Clear solicitation for new team members with Harald. * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 27 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 21 17:13:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28812; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKkST-0001IW-QN; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:26:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKivU-0003eI-Vj; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:48:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKipG-0004P0-FG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:42:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11878 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKj1w-0004Vo-Lo for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:55:24 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E84361BF6; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:41:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11414-06; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AEE61BE7; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:41:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:36:27 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: stanislav shalunov , IETF Tools Subject: Re: [Tools-team] draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt Message-ID: <4D6F56D453DA1C2041611E6B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 20. oktober 2004 01:38 -0400 stanislav shalunov wrote: > So, we disallow the posting of Microsoft Word files? I hear some > people use a Word template to create I-Ds. Note that while Word is > proprietary, so are PostScript and PDF. Postscript and PDF have published definitions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 21 21:47:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA26982; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKojc-0001j1-98; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:00:53 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKoBm-0005rs-PQ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:25:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKlvV-00079Q-66 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:00:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22035 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKm8A-0007vv-Vc for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:14:04 -0400 Received: from source ([192.150.22.8]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:19 PDT Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-8.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9LN0J85006631; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9LN0ITk027520; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-131-136.corp.adobe.com [153.32.131.136]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I5Y002TMIKIRU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:18 -0700 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt In-reply-to: <4D6F56D453DA1C2041611E6B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> To: "'Harald Tveit Alvestrand'" , "'stanislav shalunov'" , "'IETF Tools'" Message-id: <0I5Y002TNIKIRU@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcS3stsH12MMJ0bdTaaTW3wUHLc3HQADZ/ew X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For long-term archiving of published specifications, it might be useful to look at the PDF/A profile, once it's finalized and there are tools for checking: http://www.aiim.org/pdfa Basically, PDF/A is a restricted profile of PDF that is suitable for long-term archives. It's expected to be an ISO standard in 2005. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 02:47:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04657; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtQB-0007RB-DU; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:01:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKt0e-0006wk-4w; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:34:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKsxr-0005Tu-5B; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:31:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03707; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtAZ-0007CE-3q; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:45:00 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9M6VjJ2080783; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:31:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9M6ViN3080782; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:31:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:31:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041022002732.H80654@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335" Content-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7f57063aa2aff12b0d8f39478c5ddd8a Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: [Tools-team] Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-05 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7f8e10d07000271abc9ea76570021fbe This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; FORMAT=flowed Content-ID: Please post the attached draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-05.txt file as a Tools team Internet-Draft. Thank you, Alex. --0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; NAME="draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-05.txt" Content-ID: <20041022002828.C80654@measurement-factory.com> Content-Description: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-05.txt Content-Disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME="draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-05.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 DQoNClRvb2xzIHRlYW0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBBLiBSb3Vzc2tvdg0KSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJh ZnQgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFRoZSBNZWFz dXJlbWVudCBGYWN0b3J5DQpFeHBpcmVzOiBBcHJpbCAyMiwgMjAwNSAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE9jdG9iZXIgMjIsIDIwMDQN Cg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgUmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBJRVRGIERyYWZ0 IFN1Ym1pc3Npb24gVG9vbHNldA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi10b29scy1kcmFmdC1zdWJtaXNzaW9uLTA1DQoNClN0YXR1cyBvZiB0 aGlzIE1lbW8NCg0KICAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyBhbiBJbnRlcm5ldC1E cmFmdCBhbmQgaXMgc3ViamVjdCB0byBhbGwgcHJvdmlzaW9ucw0KICAgb2Yg 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(ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04860; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtTW-0007Ur-As; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:04:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKtDr-0003FX-3e; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:48:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKt9K-0000xe-HQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:43:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04504 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtM4-0007Nm-NH for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:56:53 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9M6hdJ2081051; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:43:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9M6hdQe081050; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:43:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:43:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov In-Reply-To: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d49da3f50144c227c0d2fac65d3953e6 Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f460acdc4aacf7fc5e6f9bd32f8fd8c6 Stas, Appreciate the comments. Lots of good ideas and bug reports! Fortunately, many bugs have been already fixed, or I would not be able to finish addressing your comments within 48 hours! Unfortunately, I could not resolve all issues without more information/discussions, and we will need another round to finish this beast. I have requested posting of version 05 (CCed to this list). Please use that version from now on. I will send version 06 for posting once we reach consensus on the issues that you found and I could not fix. FWIW, this will give me a chance to finish assigning implementation priorities and finally read the draft as a whole. Below, I will only comment on issues that may require further discussion. AFAIK, all other issues are resolved in version 05 of the draft, based on your suggestions, questions, or concerns. Please let me know if I missed anything. On Tue, 20 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > A very general comment: I suspect that since we're all aware of the > context, it's difficult for us to understand what would baffle an > outside developer. There's a lot of jargon that we rely on, and it > would be easy for us to miss defining a few terms. Later on, when we > agree on the substance and fill in all the blanks, we should ask some > technical person who has never participated in the IETF (or perhaps a > newcomer) to review the document. In general, I think we should expect any developer to be familiar with IETF jargon and ask questions if something is not clear. We will never finish otherwise because we are operating in an environment where many core IETF "things" are not clearly defined anywhere. A draft about a simple tool cannot and should not try to fix that problem. Personally, I feel that the amount of details outside of the Toolset primary focus is already at a dangerously high level. Also note that it is probably the Secretariat or some internal IETF team that will build the Toolset. In either case, the implementer and maintainer will be familiar with IETF jargon and process. > # authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset > # as such. > > A submitter authenticated by the Toolset as a lawful submitter. That would still be imprecise because the Toolset authenticates the submitter (not whether the submitter is lawful) after checking that the un-authenticated submitter is lawful. For example, if I, using your e-mail in the draft, claim to be you submitting a 00 version of your draft, the Toolset has not choice but to treat me as a lawful submitter. However, authentication part would fail because I cannot read your e-mail. Currently, the draft reads: A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset. Authentication is initially limited to verifying submitter access to submitter's e-mail address. > So, we disallow the posting of Microsoft Word files? I hear some > people use a Word template to create I-Ds. Note that while Word is > proprietary, so are PostScript and PDF. Not sure what you mean by "proprietary". While I am not fond of any of the above formats, PostScript and PDF are at least publicly documented standards while Word, AFAIK, is not. If it were my choice, I would only accept plain text and HTML (with images), but I am not going to fight that battle. XML sources aside, we are simply relying on the existing IETF policy for draft formats. > What about nroff? ... > I would also add DVI, if we allow PDF. It's proprietary, too, but > at least very stable. Similar arguments apply. My suggestion would be to introduce no new formats at this time (besides XML). With so many formats already allowed it should be easy to add more later, if needed (i.e., if there is real demand for more formats). > # Collectively, IETF participants submit thousands of Internet-Drafts > # per year (in the year 2000, about three thousand drafts were > # submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). > > Lowercase `k'. Why? > # Initial submissions of WG drafts require WG Chair approval, which > ^^^^^^^^^ > Should this be defined in the definitions section? I would rather not, but will do so if anybody else wants more definitions. > # > # /---> Post Now > # / > # Upload --> Check -+-----> Adjust ---> Send to Secretariat > # \ > # \---> Cancel > > If we're going to have a flow-chart, it should be done as such, with a > diamond (``Is the draft valid and the user authorized to post?'') > before ``Post''. (Or the chart could just be removed.) Here I disagree. This is just a handy, imprecise summary/illustration, not a formal flow chart. Besides the intent, the condition is even more complex than you specified. For example, a submitter may pick the manual route even if the draft is valid (perhaps there is a bug in the Post Now action that the submitter knows about). I added the word "informal" to the diagram description. > I think R67 needs to be clarified. What's the property that we're > looking for? Can it be satisfied? Is it enough? > > Here are some straw men: > > An attacker who controls only a small number of IP addresses may not > be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space so that service is > denied to other users. [Not enough: IPv6 lets you have plenty of IP > addresses.] > > An attacker may not be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space > so that service is denied to other users. [Not clear how this could > be satisfied by an implementation---no restrictions are placed on the > attacker, so he might have the ability to send lots of draft > submissions that look just like legitimate ones. Also, not enough as > the attacker might saturate some other resource.] I think it is fine to deny [any] service when under DoS. We are not talking about medical services here. Here is the current wording: The staging area maintenance algorithms must keep the area in a consistent, correct state in the presence of DoS attacks attempting to overwhelm the area with fake submissions in various stages (R67). Hint: denial of service to legitimate users is acceptable under DoS attack conditions, but corruption of storage area is not. Is that better? At the very least it is easy to implement/satisfy, IMO. > Should validation be able to take drafts from URLs? (Same for > posting.) I would worry that fetching arbitrary URLs would make the Toolset a client or even a proxy with no access controls. I think it is safer to operate in a receive-only mode, without any fetching of external data. What do others think? Are there many real use cases for post-a-draft-at-this-URL feature? > # If XML sources are available, the Toolset generates HTML draft format > # (R112). > > What is the purpose of this? We currently have a stable format for > I-Ds. Introducing HTML I-Ds will make them preferred for a subset of > participants, and then we'll be looking at different documents (a > complaint of an HTML reader about the formatting of a diagram might > make no sense to a plain text reader and vice versa). The purpose of this is to give participants an alternative rendering that is much easier to navigate than plain text. While minor differences are unavoidable, any significant "makes no sense" comment would imply a bug in HTML generation tool. This also gives us an opportunity to start a [very] slow migration towards a generally-better default format without much fighting with folks who still prefer plain text. We are not accepting HTML drafts. We just render drafts with XML sources as plain text and HTML... I consider HTML rendering a useful experiment, but do not insist on it. It just seems silly to have XML sources and not offer an HTML rendering format that many folks prefer. > # The Check action stores all submitted formats of the draft in a > # staging area dedicated to the Toolset (R12). If, after garbage > # collection, the staging area is full (i.e., the total used size > # reached configured maximum capacity), the submitter and the > # Secretariat are notified of a fatal error (R13). > > How does this dovetail with robustness against DoS? Sorry, not sure what you mean here. I do not think the Toolset should try to fight a DoS attack (see below for details). > # Each stored draft format is interpreted to extract draft meta-data > # (R14). > > Are you serious about extracting anything useful from PDF? Sure, as a long-term goal. FWIW, I extract limited text from PDFs (using a pdftotxt tool) quite often. I suspect we can, eventually, have some kind of PDF templates or formats that would make this easier. Until PDF extraction works, PDF-only drafts cannot be auto-posted, of course. If PDF extraction is impossible, we should not accept PDF drafts at all, IMO. > # If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction > # fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). > > What happens then? Please see: # If any error is found, automated posting becomes impossible (R113), # but ... > # WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for > # individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for > # non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in > # "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in > # "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. > > So, what about draft-rousskov-draft-submission-13? This needs to be > defined so that it can be understood by an outside implementor who's > never seen an I-D. I agree, but precise definition would take quite a lot of space and is not really in scope of this draft. Can we assume that an implementer have seen drafts before or, at least, can educate himself? > # WG flag: True for IETF WG drafts and false for all other drafts. For > # example, "true" for "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13". > > Does this count the number of dashes in a filename or are we talking > about something else. As you know, the rules to identify what is a WG draft are quite complex (I think Change log has some comments about this). Here, we are not defining these rules. We expect the implementor to satisfy the requirement. We do not care how they compute the value. We only care that the value is correct. Is that a good approach? Depends who the implementer is, I guess. We also give some hints on what to look for. > # submission date: Draft submission date. > > Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? Definitely from the draft. See R16. Using clock would lead to a mismatch between draft meta-data and draft text. Note, however, that the Toolset should validate what it extracted so that draft version creation and expiration dates satisfy IETF rules and make sense. > # If e-mail of an author cannot be extracted, the Toolset reports a > # warning (R95). > > I think this should be an error to prevent disputes. If someone wants > to include me as a co-author without my consent and puts > shalunov@aol.com as my email address, I can later point to that > address and claim it as suggestion of malicious intent. (Eliciting a > mandatory response from co-authors would turn the suggestion into > proof.) If an address is lacking it's more difficult for me to > convince others that I really did not give consent to posting. As a non-submitter, you did _not_ give consent to posting, but you have a point that omitting e-mail is easier than specifying a fake one. However, a malicious user can simply make a "typo" in your e-mail address. What do others think? Should we require e-mail addresses for all authors? We are only talking about drafts that are meant to be auto-posted here... > # 6. Posting this draft must not result in any Denial of Service > # attack threshold to be crossed (R97). "Individual" DoS threshold > # for a given draft is 3 revisions per day. > > Is this for a given draft name? This is no DoS protection, as an > attacker could vary the name. (Legitimate users might be affected in > rare cases.) By "This is no DoS protection", do you mean "there are ways around this DoS protection"? It seems to me that the protection makes sense (e.g., there will be folks that monitor a given draft and they should be protected from receiving 500 e-mails). > # "Global" DoS > # thresholds for all drafts are 500 submissions and 1GByte worth of > # data in past 24 hours. Other thresholds may be introduced and > # these initial thresholds may be adjusted as necessary. The > # thresholds are likely to become more smart/dynamic with > # experience. > > Shutting down under excessive load as a DoS protection mechanism? Not sure what you mean by "DoS protection mechanism", but I think that simply "shutting down until humans can look at it" is the Right Thing to do when DoS is detected, *in this particular environment*. This approach is simple, robust, and effective. Again, IETF would not suffer much if automated submission service stops functioning for a little while. As we gain more experience, smarter schemes may become necessary. Or they may not... > # 2. New draft revisions are expected (R21). For example, revision 00 > # of an individual draft is always expected, while posting a > # revision of a draft already under IESG review should generate a > # warning. > > This should be an error, not a warning. If a draft was ever posted > with a given version number, and some people grabbed it, replacing it > for the future is Bad. And sometimes it is good because the people that grabbed it asked for a new revision. And sometimes while it may seem like they asked for a new revision (e.g., based on ID tracker output), they actually did not (I have an OPES draft in that state right now). We received many comments about R21 and the current wording seems to be the best we can do (IMO), given the multitude of possible situations. The Toolset will simply not be able to enforce the Right Behavior here (but will warn about possible problems). > Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. That's an absolute requirement R22. > Skipping a version number should be a warning (might be legitimately > done if the IETF I-D submission system was down for a while and > intermediate versions were posted informally). I disagree. Version numbers are too critical for many pieces of infrastructure to allow gaps. Informal postings can use informal notation like "-03b2". > # page. Displaying draft image from the first line up to the last line > ^^^^^^^^^^^ An actual image like a PNG file? No, just the first lines, but I cannot come up with a better word than "draft image" because if I say "draft text" some may think that draft header is not included... Help? > # submitter of the last update (R83). This information is especially > # useful when multiple authors are working on the same draft. The page > # also provides a link to generate a diff against the last posted > # version (R84). > > Talk more about diff format perhaps? Diff format(s) are out of this draft scope, IMO. > # 10. Post Now action > # > # The Post Now action checks that the draft has been successfully > # validated (R34), validates external meta-data (including submitter > # e-mail) (R35), > > How do you validate submitter email if it's not from the draft? > > I'd say if it's not the first author's email (or perhaps some > authorized user like a WG chair, an AD, etc.), it should be queued for > manual service. Please see R19, and R119 - R122 in the new draft version. > # Using manual processing may result in significant posting delays. > # Generated submission receipts or notifications ought to give the > # submitter an expected processing time estimate (R53). > > How can the tool do this? The Secretariat already does that in their current auto-notification, IIRC. The estimate does not have to be precise. Please discuss the remaining issues above and see if there are any show-stoppers in version 05 of the draft. Thanks a lot, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 02:51:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04878; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtTe-0007V7-JJ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:04:42 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKtDr-0003Fb-E3; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:48:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKtAD-00014x-Gz for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:44:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04580 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKtMy-0007OE-66 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:57:48 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9M6iYJ2081057; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9M6iYRg081056; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:44:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt In-Reply-To: <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On Tue, 20 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Addendum: It wasn't clear to me if the email interface would take a > (single-format) submission that came in the body of a non-MIME email > message. (I think it definitely should.) This used to be XXX37 and it was resolved (against your wishes) in version 04. Here is a quote from the Change log in Appendix C: Resolved XXX37: E-mail submissions must use attachments, even if there is only one draft format. This may help to keep the Toolset simple (no smarts needed to isolate true draft text from notes in the beginning of the e-mail and signatures). Why do you think this feature is desirable? What do others think? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 04:04:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10606; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuc2-0000Wp-Ts; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:17:27 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuGm-0003C6-Eu; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:55:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuAN-0000c4-5g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:48:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09620 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuN8-0000CZ-AI for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:02:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B87B61B8E; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:48:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02198-01; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:48:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346F461BAF; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:48:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:19:37 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt Message-ID: <09B29491EA9C2B502F834620@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 22. oktober 2004 00:43 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > I have requested posting of version 05 (CCed to this list). Please use > that version from now on. I will send version 06 for posting once we > reach consensus on the issues that you found and I could not fix. FWIW, > this will give me a chance to finish assigning implementation priorities > and finally read the draft as a whole. Note that pre-IETF submission of I-Ds closes on Monday morning. Did you want to have time on the agenda for the tools team in San Diego? So far I have neither booked a general area meeting nor a tools team BOF. Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 04:19:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11469; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuqL-0000kw-Jn; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:32:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuXb-0002Vd-Tl; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:12:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuMt-0005FM-Ei for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:01:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10430 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuZe-0000Ue-LC for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:14:59 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 99ABD37FE2; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:01:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8935537E76; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:01:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D7037E52; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:01:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CKuMJ-0008WC-86; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:01:11 +0200 Message-ID: <4178BE4B.4020301@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:01:15 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <09B29491EA9C2B502F834620@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <09B29491EA9C2B502F834620@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > --On 22. oktober 2004 00:43 -0600 Alex Rousskov > wrote: > >> I have requested posting of version 05 (CCed to this list). >> Please use >> that version from now on. I will send version 06 for posting once we >> reach consensus on the issues that you found and I could not fix. FWIW, >> this will give me a chance to finish assigning implementation priorities >> and finally read the draft as a whole. > > > Note that pre-IETF submission of I-Ds closes on Monday morning. > > Did you want to have time on the agenda for the tools team in San Diego? > So far I have neither booked a general area meeting nor a tools team BOF. Yes, we had been thinking of a slot in the general area meeting. I hadn't thought of the possibility of doing a BOF - guess I'm thinking BOF = kick off new work, which is a bit too limited :-) Either would work. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 04:19:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11501; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuqd-0000lO-HB; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:32:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuXq-0002aF-8c; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:13:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuPZ-0005Su-Mk for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:04:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10641 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKucJ-0000Wg-WC for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:17:45 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id C81A8382FF; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B594D38039; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA8037E43; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CKuP1-0008WR-70; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:59 +0200 Message-ID: <4178BEF3.1000400@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:04:03 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Tue, 20 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > >> Addendum: It wasn't clear to me if the email interface would take a >> (single-format) submission that came in the body of a non-MIME email >> message. (I think it definitely should.) > > > This used to be XXX37 and it was resolved (against your wishes) in > version 04. Here is a quote from the Change log in Appendix C: > > Resolved XXX37: E-mail submissions must use attachments, even > if there is only one draft format. This may help to keep the > Toolset simple (no smarts needed to isolate true draft text from > notes in the beginning of the e-mail and signatures). > > Why do you think this feature is desirable? What do others think? Going for simplicity first, I think it is fine to require that the draft is in an attachment. However, you might add a requirement that an email submission with no attachment should generate a response indicating that an attachment (with the draft) was expected but not found. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 04:36:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12387; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKv7e-00012H-CI; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:50:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKuq6-0000pJ-7F; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:31:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CKujz-00075P-0L for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:25:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11905 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CKuwh-0000qM-My for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:38:50 -0400 Received: by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9DC713804F; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av2-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC0937F01; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EAC38008; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CKujN-0000OG-Fo; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:25:01 +0200 Message-ID: <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:25:06 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6a817af60e4281a101681ecb646dffff Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b612707e1a3f67df80ae89cdab1ba981 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, Stas, Stas: Lots of good comments. I comment only on those below which Alex didn't already incorporate. Henrik Alex Rousskov wrote: > > Stas, > > Appreciate the comments. Lots of good ideas and bug reports! > Fortunately, many bugs have been already fixed, or I would not be able > to finish addressing your comments within 48 hours! Unfortunately, I > could not resolve all issues without more information/discussions, and > we will need another round to finish this beast. > > I have requested posting of version 05 (CCed to this list). Please > use that version from now on. I will send version 06 for posting once we > reach consensus on the issues that you found and I could not fix. FWIW, > this will give me a chance to finish assigning implementation priorities > and finally read the draft as a whole. Sounds good > Below, I will only comment on issues that may require further > discussion. AFAIK, all other issues are resolved in version 05 of the > draft, based on your suggestions, questions, or concerns. Please let me > know if I missed anything. > > On Tue, 20 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > >> A very general comment: I suspect that since we're all aware of the >> context, it's difficult for us to understand what would baffle an >> outside developer. There's a lot of jargon that we rely on, and it >> would be easy for us to miss defining a few terms. Later on, when we >> agree on the substance and fill in all the blanks, we should ask some >> technical person who has never participated in the IETF (or perhaps a >> newcomer) to review the document. > > > In general, I think we should expect any developer to be familiar with > IETF jargon and ask questions if something is not clear. > > We will never > finish otherwise because we are operating in an environment where many > core IETF "things" are not clearly defined anywhere. A draft about a > simple tool cannot and should not try to fix that problem. Personally, I > feel that the amount of details outside of the Toolset primary focus is > already at a dangerously high level. > > Also note that it is probably the Secretariat or some internal IETF team > that will build the Toolset. In either case, the implementer and > maintainer will be familiar with IETF jargon and process. Agreed. The developer will in all likelihood be the Secretariat Developer, Mike, who has been working on other tools, including building the ID-Tracker, so he may know more than us about some aspects of the IETF ... >> # authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the >> Toolset >> # as such. >> >> A submitter authenticated by the Toolset as a lawful submitter. > > > That would still be imprecise because the Toolset authenticates the > submitter (not whether the submitter is lawful) after checking that the > un-authenticated submitter is lawful. For example, if I, using your > e-mail in the draft, claim to be you submitting a 00 version of your > draft, the Toolset has not choice but to treat me as a lawful submitter. > However, authentication part would fail because I cannot read your e-mail. > > Currently, the draft reads: > > A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset. > Authentication is initially limited to verifying submitter > access to submitter's e-mail address. Let it stand. >> So, we disallow the posting of Microsoft Word files? I hear some >> people use a Word template to create I-Ds. Note that while Word is >> proprietary, so are PostScript and PDF. > > > Not sure what you mean by "proprietary". While I am not fond of any of > the above formats, PostScript and PDF are at least publicly documented > standards while Word, AFAIK, is not. If it were my choice, I would only > accept plain text and HTML (with images), but I am not going to fight > that battle. XML sources aside, we are simply relying on the existing > IETF policy for draft formats. Yes. We won't change that. >> What about nroff? Ditto. >> I would also add DVI, if we allow PDF. It's proprietary, too, but at >> least very stable. > > > Similar arguments apply. My suggestion would be to introduce no new > formats at this time (besides XML). With so many formats already allowed > it should be easy to add more later, if needed (i.e., if there is real > demand for more formats). Yes. I agree. >> # Collectively, IETF participants submit thousands of Internet-Drafts >> # per year (in the year 2000, about three thousand drafts were >> # submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). >> >> Lowercase `k'. > > > Why? 'k' is the standard ISO suffix for thousand. >> # Initial submissions of WG drafts require WG Chair approval, which >> ^^^^^^^^^ >> Should this be defined in the definitions section? > > > I would rather not, but will do so if anybody else wants more definitions. Might be a good idea, actually. >> # >> # /---> Post Now >> # / >> # Upload --> Check -+-----> Adjust ---> Send to Secretariat >> # \ >> # \---> Cancel >> >> If we're going to have a flow-chart, it should be done as such, with a >> diamond (``Is the draft valid and the user authorized to post?'') >> before ``Post''. (Or the chart could just be removed.) > > > Here I disagree. This is just a handy, imprecise summary/illustration, > not a formal flow chart. Besides the intent, the condition is even more > complex than you specified. For example, a submitter may pick the manual > route even if the draft is valid (perhaps there is a bug in the Post Now > action that the submitter knows about). > > I added the word "informal" to the diagram description. Good, agreed. >> I think R67 needs to be clarified. What's the property that we're >> looking for? Can it be satisfied? Is it enough? >> >> Here are some straw men: >> >> An attacker who controls only a small number of IP addresses may not >> be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space so that service is >> denied to other users. [Not enough: IPv6 lets you have plenty of IP >> addresses.] >> >> An attacker may not be allowed to exhaust the system's storage space >> so that service is denied to other users. [Not clear how this could >> be satisfied by an implementation---no restrictions are placed on the >> attacker, so he might have the ability to send lots of draft >> submissions that look just like legitimate ones. Also, not enough as >> the attacker might saturate some other resource.] > > > I think it is fine to deny [any] service when under DoS. We are not > talking about medical services here. Here is the current wording: > > The staging area maintenance algorithms must keep the area in a > consistent, correct state in the presence of DoS attacks attempting to > overwhelm the area with fake submissions in various stages (R67). Hint: > denial of service to legitimate users is acceptable under DoS attack > conditions, but corruption of storage area is not. > > Is that better? At the very least it is easy to implement/satisfy, IMO. Better, and looks good to me. >> Should validation be able to take drafts from URLs? (Same for >> posting.) > > > I would worry that fetching arbitrary URLs would make the Toolset a > client or even a proxy with no access controls. I think it is safer to > operate in a receive-only mode, without any fetching of external data. > What do others think? Are there many real use cases for > post-a-draft-at-this-URL feature? It's a secondary ease-of-use feature. Nice to have, not necessary. Skip it for now, or mention it as an optional feature for later. >> # If XML sources are available, the Toolset generates HTML draft >> format >> # (R112). >> >> What is the purpose of this? We currently have a stable format for >> I-Ds. Introducing HTML I-Ds will make them preferred for a subset of >> participants, and then we'll be looking at different documents (a >> complaint of an HTML reader about the formatting of a diagram might >> make no sense to a plain text reader and vice versa). > > > The purpose of this is to give participants an alternative rendering > that is much easier to navigate than plain text. While minor differences > are unavoidable, any significant "makes no sense" comment would imply a > bug in HTML generation tool. This also gives us an opportunity to start > a [very] slow migration towards a generally-better default format > without much fighting with folks who still prefer plain text. > > We are not accepting HTML drafts. We just render drafts with XML sources > as plain text and HTML... > > I consider HTML rendering a useful experiment, but do not insist on it. > It just seems silly to have XML sources and not offer an HTML rendering > format that many folks prefer. I'm divided here, mostly because I see the presentation of what is in the repository as outside the scope of the tool. I think the requirement is good as it stands, exactly because it just provides the alternate HTML format without going into how that is later made available or not. >> # The Check action stores all submitted formats of the draft in a >> # staging area dedicated to the Toolset (R12). If, after garbage >> # collection, the staging area is full (i.e., the total used size >> # reached configured maximum capacity), the submitter and the >> # Secretariat are notified of a fatal error (R13). >> >> How does this dovetail with robustness against DoS? > > > Sorry, not sure what you mean here. I do not think the Toolset should > try to fight a DoS attack (see below for details). Agreed. >> # Each stored draft format is interpreted to extract draft meta-data >> # (R14). >> >> Are you serious about extracting anything useful from PDF? > > > Sure, as a long-term goal. FWIW, I extract limited text from PDFs (using > a pdftotxt tool) quite often. I suspect we can, eventually, have some > kind of PDF templates or formats that would make this easier. Until PDF > extraction works, PDF-only drafts cannot be auto-posted, of course. If > PDF extraction is impossible, we should not accept PDF drafts at all, IMO. > >> # If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction >> # fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). >> >> What happens then? > > > Please see: > # If any error is found, automated posting becomes impossible (R113), # > but ... > >> # WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for >> # individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and >> for >> # non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in >> # "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in >> # "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. >> >> So, what about draft-rousskov-draft-submission-13? This needs to be >> defined so that it can be understood by an outside implementor who's >> never seen an I-D. > > > I agree, but precise definition would take quite a lot of space and is > not really in scope of this draft. Can we assume that an implementer > have seen drafts before or, at least, can educate himself? > >> # WG flag: True for IETF WG drafts and false for all other drafts. >> For >> # example, "true" for "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13". >> >> Does this count the number of dashes in a filename or are we talking >> about something else. > > > As you know, the rules to identify what is a WG draft are quite complex > (I think Change log has some comments about this). Here, we are not > defining these rules. We expect the implementor to satisfy the > requirement. We do not care how they compute the value. We only care > that the value is correct. Is that a good approach? Depends who the > implementer is, I guess. We also give some hints on what to look for. Basically, you want to use the first group of /draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)-*/, I'd say. Currently, when chairs slip up, wg-drafts can happen to have names like draft--* or draft-name--*, but I'd like those to explicitly have to go the manual route - let the tool only accept as wg drafts drafts which have 'well-formed' wg draft names. (as an aside, I slipped up this week when an author submitted a draft named draft-mip4-faerr-00.txt instead of draft-ietf-mip4-faerr-00.txt, and I'd really, really have wanted the tool to catch that, not let it through...) >> # submission date: Draft submission date. >> >> Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? > > > Definitely from the draft. See R16. Using clock would lead to a mismatch > between draft meta-data and draft text. Note, however, that the Toolset > should validate what it extracted so that draft version creation and > expiration dates satisfy IETF rules and make sense. > >> # If e-mail of an author cannot be extracted, the Toolset reports a >> # warning (R95). >> >> I think this should be an error to prevent disputes. If someone wants >> to include me as a co-author without my consent and puts >> shalunov@aol.com as my email address, I can later point to that >> address and claim it as suggestion of malicious intent. (Eliciting a >> mandatory response from co-authors would turn the suggestion into >> proof.) If an address is lacking it's more difficult for me to >> convince others that I really did not give consent to posting. > > > As a non-submitter, you did _not_ give consent to posting, but you have > a point that omitting e-mail is easier than specifying a fake one. > However, a malicious user can simply make a "typo" in your e-mail address. > > What do others think? Should we require e-mail addresses for all > authors? We are only talking about drafts that are meant to be > auto-posted here... Mmm. I'd say yes, require e-mail addresses for all authors. >> # 6. Posting this draft must not result in any Denial of Service >> # attack threshold to be crossed (R97). "Individual" DoS >> threshold >> # for a given draft is 3 revisions per day. >> >> Is this for a given draft name? This is no DoS protection, as an >> attacker could vary the name. (Legitimate users might be affected in >> rare cases.) > > > By "This is no DoS protection", do you mean "there are ways around this > DoS protection"? It seems to me that the protection makes sense (e.g., > there will be folks that monitor a given draft and they should be > protected from receiving 500 e-mails). Maybe add this rationale to that paragraph - it makes it clear that the 3 rev limit is DOS protection not primarily for the tool, but for the people monitoring a draft. >> # "Global" DoS >> # thresholds for all drafts are 500 submissions and 1GByte >> worth of >> # data in past 24 hours. Other thresholds may be introduced and >> # these initial thresholds may be adjusted as necessary. The >> # thresholds are likely to become more smart/dynamic with >> # experience. >> >> Shutting down under excessive load as a DoS protection mechanism? > > > Not sure what you mean by "DoS protection mechanism", but I think that > simply "shutting down until humans can look at it" is the Right Thing to > do when DoS is detected, *in this particular environment*. This approach > is simple, robust, and effective. Again, IETF would not suffer much if > automated submission service stops functioning for a little while. > > As we gain more experience, smarter schemes may become necessary. Or > they may not... Agreed. >> # 2. New draft revisions are expected (R21). For example, >> revision 00 >> # of an individual draft is always expected, while posting a >> # revision of a draft already under IESG review should generate a >> # warning. >> >> This should be an error, not a warning. If a draft was ever posted >> with a given version number, and some people grabbed it, replacing it >> for the future is Bad. > > > And sometimes it is good because the people that grabbed it asked for a > new revision. And sometimes while it may seem like they asked for a new > revision (e.g., based on ID tracker output), they actually did not (I > have an OPES draft in that state right now). > > We received many comments about R21 and the current wording seems to be > the best we can do (IMO), given the multitude of possible situations. > The Toolset will simply not be able to enforce the Right Behavior here > (but will warn about possible problems). > >> Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. > > > That's an absolute requirement R22. > >> Skipping a version number should be a warning (might be legitimately >> done if the IETF I-D submission system was down for a while and >> intermediate versions were posted informally). > > > I disagree. Version numbers are too critical for many pieces of > infrastructure to allow gaps. Informal postings can use informal > notation like "-03b2". Yes, I agree. >> # page. Displaying draft image from the first line up to the last >> line >> ^^^^^^^^^^^ An actual image like a PNG file? > > > No, just the first lines, but I cannot come up with a better word than > "draft image" because if I say "draft text" some may think that draft > header is not included... Help? "page. Displaying a draft excerpt from the first line ...." >> # submitter of the last update (R83). This information is especially >> # useful when multiple authors are working on the same draft. The >> page >> # also provides a link to generate a diff against the last posted >> # version (R84). >> >> Talk more about diff format perhaps? > > > Diff format(s) are out of this draft scope, IMO. Agreed. >> # 10. Post Now action >> # >> # The Post Now action checks that the draft has been successfully >> # validated (R34), validates external meta-data (including submitter >> # e-mail) (R35), >> >> How do you validate submitter email if it's not from the draft? >> >> I'd say if it's not the first author's email (or perhaps some >> authorized user like a WG chair, an AD, etc.), it should be queued for >> manual service. > > > Please see R19, and R119 - R122 in the new draft version. > >> # Using manual processing may result in significant posting delays. >> # Generated submission receipts or notifications ought to give the >> # submitter an expected processing time estimate (R53). >> >> How can the tool do this? > > > The Secretariat already does that in their current auto-notification, > IIRC. The estimate does not have to be precise. > > > Please discuss the remaining issues above and see if there are any > show-stoppers in version 05 of the draft. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 12:09:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17093; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL2BI-0001JW-9x; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:22:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL1xy-0003kw-9q; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:08:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL1p5-0001I5-3J for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:59:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16322 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL21s-00014f-MI for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:12:37 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484EA1CDB78 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31367-05 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8A31CDB69 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF Tools Subject: Re: [Tools-team] draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <4D6F56D453DA1C2041611E6B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Oct 2004 11:59:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4D6F56D453DA1C2041611E6B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: <86pt3a3frp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: > --On 20. oktober 2004 01:38 -0400 stanislav shalunov > wrote: > > > So, we disallow the posting of Microsoft Word files? I hear some > > people use a Word template to create I-Ds. Note that while Word is > > proprietary, so are PostScript and PDF. > > Postscript and PDF have published definitions. I know that. They're still proprietary formats. Change control is with Adobe. (There's nothing particularly sinister about being proprietary---I use DVI, PostScript, and PDF all the time and, in fact, lack any reasonable alternatives.) In the case of PDF, this is not just a theoretical issue (as it would be in the case of DVI): Adobe keep changing PDF so that I often have difficulties reading the newest format (especially files produced by Microsoft). An even more troubling aspect of PDF is its ability to include arbitrary OLE objects. In a way, by allowing PDF one allows Microsoft Word as well, as a PDF file can be a simple container that contains only a single item: a Word document (or an Excel spreadsheet, for that matter). PostScript is better than PDF as an archival format as well: Adobe has less incentive to change it (not that it doesn't) and it can't include OLE objects (as far as I know). PDF/A that Larry mentions is very promising. Especially so if it becomes an open format through ISO. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Religion is the opium of them asses. --Karlm Arx _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 12:25:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18074; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL2Qt-0001bM-OZ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:38:27 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL28K-0000VU-0v; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:19:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL27X-0008Tl-8t for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:18:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17584 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL2KL-0001V0-Qo for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:31:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55A71CDB92; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03271-10; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D321CDB8A; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:18:23 -0400 (EDT) To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Oct 2004 12:18:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Alex Rousskov writes: > Resolved XXX37: E-mail submissions must use attachments, even > if there is only one draft format. This may help to keep the > Toolset simple (no smarts needed to isolate true draft text from > notes in the beginning of the e-mail and signatures). > > Why do you think this feature is desirable? On a personal level, that would allow me to keep using something that's close to the current mode of submission (I currently send a URL to internet-drafts@ietf.org and ask to post the draft there, which, in my particular environment and with manual processing of requests at the Secretariat even works in offline mode [web update and mail push happen at about the same time]). I don't even know how to send an attachment from my MUA (on the about five occasions that I did send an attachment, I typed the MIME headers manually). I know a few people who are similarly advanced-MIME-averse. On a more general level, the message body is one of the MIME parts of the message (if the message contains a MIME-Version header). Talking about tool simplicity, processing the body seems like the more uniform approach than discarding it (and thus making it a special case). If someone cannot turn off signatures and legal disclaimers, he will have to use an attachment, if email submission is desired. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 13:05:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20884; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL33w-0002KW-5T; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:18:48 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL2oy-0006On-W6; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:03:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL2gb-0003d8-VG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:54:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20086 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL2tP-00028d-Ov for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:07:57 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9MGsaJ2001064; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:54:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:54:35 -0600 To: "stanislav shalunov" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: > I don't even know how to send an > attachment from my MUA (on the about five occasions that I did send an > attachment, I typed the MIME headers manually). I know a few people > who are similarly advanced-MIME-averse. Wow. And I thought all decent email clients support sending attachments without having the user to type MIME headers! You must be using something really cool that was not designed for [modern] email :-) But what do I know -- I am struggling with my new email client at the moment... > On a more general level, the message body is one of the MIME parts of > the message (if the message contains a MIME-Version header). Talking > about tool simplicity, processing the body seems like the more uniform > approach than discarding it (and thus making it a special case). If > someone cannot turn off signatures and legal disclaimers, he will have > to use an attachment, if email submission is desired. The problem is not with folks that would use an attachment because they cannot turn signatures off, but with folks that would send a draft with a signature or legal crap embedded. Are we OK with posted drafts containing "This information is confidential and is intended for ..." crap, contradicting the IETF license? That's the common/likely problem I am worried about. I do not know how to solve pragmatically and suggest we simply avoid it. Also, I wonder if email bodies are more prone to the following auto-modifications - changes in end-of-line coding - ">From" quoting - text wrapping - HTML-fication and other similar "human-friendly" features. Overall, it seems that drafts must be send "as is" and email bodies are often not sent as is because many email clients, historically, tailored their body-handling code for sending human-typed text not raw data. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 13:30:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23043; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL3SS-0002n8-VR; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:44:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL39N-0004C8-NU; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:24:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL2zt-0001Nv-Ci for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:14:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21489 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL3Ci-0002Tu-5t for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:27:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BE81CD4D4; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12740-08; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026691CD497; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:14:33 -0400 (EDT) To: Alex Rousskov References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Oct 2004 13:14:52 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86d5za3cab.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 212 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Cc: IETF Tools Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bacfc6c7290e34d410f9bc22b825ce96 [I *think* I'm mostly skipping the ones on which Henrik commented.] Alex Rousskov writes: > In general, I think we should expect any developer to be familiar with > IETF jargon and ask questions if something is not clear. In this case, the level of detail is OK. > > # authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the Toolset > > # as such. > > > > A submitter authenticated by the Toolset as a lawful submitter. > > That would still be imprecise because the Toolset authenticates the > submitter (not whether the submitter is lawful) after checking that > the un-authenticated submitter is lawful. For example, if I, using > your e-mail in the draft, claim to be you submitting a 00 version of > your draft, the Toolset has not choice but to treat me as a lawful > submitter. However, authentication part would fail because I cannot > read your e-mail. So, it seems like you wouldn't be ``authenticated [...] as a lawful submitter,'' and would not, therefore, be an authorized submitter in this case, no? > > # submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). > > Lowercase `k'. > Why? SI prefix `kilo-' is abbreviated as a lowercase `k'. The uppercase `K' is an abbreviation for kilo- in its 1024 sense, which is not what you want, right? > The staging area maintenance algorithms must keep the area in a > consistent, correct state in the presence of DoS attacks attempting to > overwhelm the area with fake submissions in various stages (R67). Hint: > denial of service to legitimate users is acceptable under DoS attack > conditions, but corruption of storage area is not. > > Is that better? At the very least it is easy to implement/satisfy, IMO. Excellent. > Are there many real use cases for post-a-draft-at-this-URL feature? For what it's worth, that's how I submit drafts (I send a PGP-signed message that contains a URL on my personal web page and a cryptographic checksum of the file there, to be more precise). Seeing copies of other people's submission messages, I recall some doing it. (I do it partly because I think it's less imposing to copy such a message to the working group mailing list, since it's considerably smaller than the draft.) But your concerns about turning it into a client with no access controls are understood. However, it'd be similar to the W3 Validator (or, for that matter, putting a link on a public page and waiting for search engines to spider it). It seems that the concern would be taken care of if the Toolset obeyed robots.txt. > The purpose of this is to give participants an alternative rendering > that is much easier to navigate than plain text. It seems to be a small step in the direction of RFCs in HTML. I was under the impression that you were opposed to backdoor practice changes in other respects, so what makes this one different? > Until PDF extraction works, PDF-only drafts cannot be auto-posted, > of course. Do we worry about cases of mismatch between PDF and plain text? With manual processing, the Secretariat can give it a cursory examination and see that it looks like the same document with the same authors. With automatic storage, that check would be gone. It would seem to me that to submissions with PDF should be processed manually. > If PDF extraction is impossible, we should not accept PDF drafts at > all, IMO. In some limited cases, one can fairly easily extract text from PDF. If the generation if by an unknown tool, though, it'd look like the only way to extract text would be to render a bitmap and then OCR it. (I hope we're not going there.) Even innocuously produced PDF (e.g., ps2pdf) can have character tables that don't look like anything useful (or at least Google couldn't find a way to index those files, and their PDF extractor seems pretty decent). > > # If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction > > # fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). > > > > What happens then? > > Please see: > # If any error is found, automated posting becomes impossible (R113), > # but ... Ah, maybe a pointer to R113 in R15 then? > > # WG ID: IETF working group identifier. WG value is empty for > > # individual drafts not meant to be work items of a known WG and for > > # non-IETF drafts. For example, "tools" in > > # "draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-13" and "opes" in > > # "draft-rousskov-opes-ocp-00" are both WG IDs. > > > > So, what about draft-rousskov-draft-submission-13? This needs to be > > defined so that it can be understood by an outside implementor who's > > never seen an I-D. > > I agree, but precise definition would take quite a lot of space and is > not really in scope of this draft. Can we assume that an implementer > have seen drafts before or, at least, can educate himself? I see two ways of doing it: 1. Easy to maintain: @fields = ($filename =~ m/draft-(\w+)-(\w+)-/); $wg = $fields[1] if $fields[0] eq 'ietf'; 2. Hard to maintain: %wgs = (opes => 1, ippm => 1, tools => 1, ... ); @fields = ($filename =~ m/draft-(\w+)-(\w+)-/); ($person, $wg) = @fields if $wgs{$fields[1]} I'd go for the first way any day. > As you know, the rules to identify what is a WG draft are quite > complex (I think Change log has some comments about this). I don't know what they are. > > # submission date: Draft submission date. > > > > Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? > > Definitely from the draft. Should there be a requirement to compare the clock with the extracted date and produce an error if the extracted date is more than a day in the future (to allow for time zones) or more than a week in the past? > > # 6. Posting this draft must not result in any Denial of Service > > # attack threshold to be crossed (R97). "Individual" DoS threshold > > # for a given draft is 3 revisions per day. > > > > Is this for a given draft name? This is no DoS protection, as an > > attacker could vary the name. (Legitimate users might be affected in > > rare cases.) > > By "This is no DoS protection", do you mean "there are ways around > this DoS protection"? It seems to me that the protection makes sense > (e.g., there will be folks that monitor a given draft and they should > be protected from receiving 500 e-mails). Ah, that makes sense. How about something like inserting ``To protect the mailboxes of those who are monitoring a particular draft,'' before ``Posting this''? > > > # "Global" DoS > > # thresholds for all drafts are 500 submissions and 1GByte worth of > > # data in past 24 hours. Other thresholds may be introduced and > > # these initial thresholds may be adjusted as necessary. The > > # thresholds are likely to become more smart/dynamic with > > # experience. > > > > Shutting down under excessive load as a DoS protection mechanism? > > Not sure what you mean by "DoS protection mechanism", but I think that > simply "shutting down until humans can look at it" is the Right Thing > to do when DoS is detected, *in this particular environment*. This > approach is simple, robust, and effective. Again, IETF would not > suffer much if > automated submission service stops functioning for a little while. Would you consider changing the wording to make clear that you're not trying to protect the tool from DoS by requiring it to shut down? Maybe ``To protect the repository from a large volume of automated or unusual submissions...''? > > # 2. New draft revisions are expected (R21). For example, revision 00 > > # of an individual draft is always expected, while posting a > > # revision of a draft already under IESG review should generate a > > # warning. > > > > This should be an error, not a warning. If a draft was ever posted > > with a given version number, and some people grabbed it, replacing it > > for the future is Bad. > > And sometimes it is good because the people that grabbed it asked for > a new revision. And sometimes while it may seem like they asked for a > new revision (e.g., based on ID tracker output), they actually did not Version numbers become quite a bit less useful when they might be the same for different documents. ``I'm reading -04 and it says...'' -- ``Where are you looking? I'm reading -04 and it doesn't say that.'' > > Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. > > That's an absolute requirement R22. Then it can't be equal to an existing version number? Or can it? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me I am right? Please wait until I am wrong." -- John von Neumann, on being phoned at 10 a.m. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 14:05:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25402; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL40H-0003Qw-Je; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:19:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL3lV-0007u6-LF; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:03:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL3gH-00061Z-KY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:58:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24948 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL3t5-0003Ih-FU for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:11:41 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9MHwJJ2003637; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:58:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:58:18 -0600 To: "stanislav shalunov" References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <86d5za3cab.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86d5za3cab.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF Tools Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: >> > # authorized submitter: A lawful submitter authenticated by the > >> # Toolset as such. >> > >> > A submitter authenticated by the Toolset as a lawful submitter. >> >> That would still be imprecise because the Toolset authenticates the >> submitter (not whether the submitter is lawful) after checking that >> the un-authenticated submitter is lawful. For example, if I, using >> your e-mail in the draft, claim to be you submitting a 00 version of >> your draft, the Toolset has not choice but to treat me as a lawful >> submitter. However, authentication part would fail because I cannot >> read your e-mail. > > So, it seems like you wouldn't be ``authenticated [...] as a lawful > submitter,'' and would not, therefore, be an authorized submitter in > this case, no? That's not the point. The point is that one is a lawful submitter (or not) before authentication starts. The Toolset does not authenticate lawfulness but identity (via verifying access to email): - step1: check that A (the given e-mail address) is an address of some lawful submitter - step2: check that submitter has access to A >> > # submitted; 2002: 5K; 2004: 7K). >> > Lowercase `k'. >> Why? > > SI prefix `kilo-' is abbreviated as a lowercase `k'. The uppercase > `K' is an abbreviation for kilo- in its 1024 sense, which is not what > you want, right? Either would fall within the margin of error, but I do not care, and will use "k". > It seems to be a small step in the direction of RFCs in HTML. I was > under the impression that you were opposed to backdoor practice > changes in other respects, so what makes this one different? Not sure what other backdoors you are referring to, but I am happy with making a small step towards HTML rendering of RFCs. Henrik has a good point -- if HTML is produced, it does not need to be displayed. We can toy with that second step later. Alternatively, we can say that HTML production is out of scope. The draft rendering tool will do that (runtime? and cache results?). > Do we worry about cases of mismatch between PDF and plain text? With > manual processing, the Secretariat can give it a cursory examination > and see that it looks like the same document with the same authors. > With automatic storage, that check would be gone. It would seem to me > that to submissions with PDF should be processed manually. I have no strong opinion here. I am OK with not permitting PDFs to be auto-posted until they can be interpreted. I will make this change unless somebody objects. >> > # If a given format is interpreted and meta-data extraction >> > # fails, the Toolset records an error (R15). >> > >> > What happens then? >> >> Please see: >> # If any error is found, automated posting becomes impossible (R113), >> # but ... > > Ah, maybe a pointer to R113 in R15 then? There are just too many places that would have to point to R113, unfortunately. Every validation requirement would have to point to R113 because every validation may fail. I will emphasize the R113 applicability in the text. >> > # submission date: Draft submission date. >> > >> > Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? >> >> Definitely from the draft. > > Should there be a requirement to compare the clock with the extracted > date and produce an error if the extracted date is more than a day in > the future (to allow for time zones) or more than a week in the past? I was going to leave specific values to the implementors, but can specify them if we think they are likely to get it wrong. > Version numbers become quite a bit less useful when they might be the > same for different documents. ``I'm reading -04 and it says...'' -- > ``Where are you looking? I'm reading -04 and it doesn't say that.'' Indeed. However, I do not think that the Toolset can solve that problem if people continue to look at non-posted drafts. My hope is that with the Toolset in place, the number of public non-posted drafts will be negligible. The Toolset enforces unique version numbers. Other means of sharing drafts do not. >> > Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. >> >> That's an absolute requirement R22. > > Then it can't be equal to an existing version number? Or can it? It cannot be. Does something imply it can? Sorry, I may have lost context here... Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 14:24:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26742; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL4IZ-0003kw-Of; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:38:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL44M-0005AH-NS; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:23:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL3wz-0003Hs-KG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26189 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL49o-0003aj-NM for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:28:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11ACB1CD49A; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22916-10; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1BB1CD50B; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:34 -0400 (EDT) To: "Alex Rousskov" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Oct 2004 14:15:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 156 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0770535483960d190d4a0d020e7060bd Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 225414c974e0d6437992164e91287a51 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > Wow. And I thought all decent email clients support sending > attachments without having the user to type MIME headers! You must be > using something really cool that was not designed for [modern] email I use Gnus (as my headers mention), which I find indispensable for large volumes of mail (scoring really helps on large discussion lists); it has support for sending attachments -- I just don't remember how to use it (because I don't typically need it). Some people, including some IETFers, use /usr/bin/mail (combined with procmail for sorting); that really has no attachment support for sending. And since you can't freely edit the headers in mail, even typing the headers would not work. It's difficult to say how many people use this client because it leaves no signature in the headers. There are, of course, always work-arounds (e.g., mpack). It's more of a matter of required procedural change for some people. I realize that I am in the minority since I don't use a web browser or Microsoft Outlook to read my mail. If the minority is small within the IETF, it can safely be ignored. Maybe I'll look at the headers on the IETF lists. Let's see: #!/usr/bin/perl -w use strict; # Look at mail user agent versions. Assume messages in the current # directory, one per file (nnml in my case). # Written by Stanislav Shalunov, http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ # 2004-10-22 my %muas; opendir DIR, '.' or die "opendir(.): $!\n"; $/ = ''; # Read by paragraph, to slurp the headers. while (defined (my $file = readdir DIR)) { -r $file or next; open FILE, "<$file" or die "open($file): $!\n"; my $header = ; $header =~ m/^From:\s*(.*)\s*\n/mi or next; my $from = $1; my $mua; $mua = $1 if $header =~ m/^User-Agent:\s*(.*)\s*\n/mi; $mua = $1 if (!$mua) and $header =~ m/^X-Mailer:\s*(.*)\s*\n/mi; $mua = 'Pine' if (!$mua) and $header =~ m/^Message-Id:\s*\ The problem is not with folks that would use an attachment because > they cannot turn signatures off, but with folks that would send a > draft with a signature or legal crap embedded. People like that wouldn't be likely to know how to insert a draft in the body of a message. > Also, I wonder if email bodies are more prone to the following > auto-modifications > - changes in end-of-line coding Why? Are you thinking about people using MIME protection with quoted-printable or base64 to encode bad ends of line? I'm not sure if there's a policy, but currently (almost?) everything is posted with `\n' ends. Which would be the case with sending unprotected ends of line. (If one wanted to protect different ends of line, this could be accomplished by quoted-printable or base-64 in the body or in an attachment with about equal ease -- or difficulty.) > - ">From" quoting I just looked and the code in Postfix that does this nonsense is not paying attention to MIME structure. But in any case, the draft text is indented usually, so this would only be a problem if a standard (non-numbered) section name started with ``From ''. That's not the case. A nasty case would be an author whose last name is ``From.'' I've not met any Froms, but they'd probably need to use the web interface, or pray that the attachment works, or specify their name in all uppercase, or use their first name along with their last name in the footer. Whatever they do, it'll look like a typo to most people anyway. > - text wrapping That's a valid concern. Hopefully, idnits would catch that, would it not? > - HTML-fication Same as with signatures, I think. Someone using a MUA that sends HTML won't know how to insert a draft in the message body. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Sex is the mathematics urge sublimated. -- M. C. Reed. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 14:55:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29244; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL4mQ-0004Lc-NV; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:08:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL4Vt-0005MJ-Rt; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:51:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL4SC-0003tG-TA for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28598 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL4f1-0004D0-Gi for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:01:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1357D1CD523; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28927-07; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93B61CD506; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:51 -0400 (EDT) To: "Alex Rousskov" References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <86d5za3cab.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 Oct 2004 14:48:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <864qkm37ys.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 54 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: IETF Tools Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab "Alex Rousskov" writes: > Not sure what other backdoors you are referring to, Other formats, for example. > but I am happy with making a small step towards HTML rendering of RFCs. This would seem to need community discussion. The disadvantages of plain text are clear, but so are the advantages. > Henrik has a good point -- if HTML is produced, it does not need to > be displayed. We can toy with that second step later. This, to me, sounds too similar to ``we don't actually want to use this {database,surveillance tool,instrument for income redistribution}; at this point we simply propose to invest in building it, while actual use would be discussed later.'' Politicians do that, we should not. If the community wants I-Ds (and perhaps even RFCs) in HTML, fine. If it doesn't, we shouldn't invest in building the tools for it. > Alternatively, we can say that HTML production is out of scope. That would be fine. > > Should there be a requirement to compare the clock with the extracted > > date and produce an error if the extracted date is more than a day in > > the future (to allow for time zones) or more than a week in the past? > > I was going to leave specific values to the implementors, but can > specify them if we think they are likely to get it wrong. Maybe not the specific values, but a requirement for some check could be useful. (Also, the one-day-in-the-future part might be gotten wrong by an implementor.) > The Toolset enforces unique version numbers. Good, we're in violent agreement. > It cannot be. Does something imply it can? When looking at R21, I get this impression (violating R21 is a warning, not an error). This might contradict R22, which I don't find particularly clear. What's a ``correct revision number with respect to already published revisions, if any''? In light of text in R21, this is not very clear. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. -- Mark Twain _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 15:42:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03500; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL5W5-00059u-J2; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:56:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL5AX-0002pq-BI; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:33:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL581-0000nr-Ta for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:31:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02667 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL5Kp-0004vS-Pm for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:44:26 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9MJV2J2008719; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:31:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:31:02 -0600 To: "stanislav shalunov" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since nobody is supporting my position, I will add the in-body email submission feature back. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 19:19:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12404; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8u7-0000K0-NH; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:33:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8S6-0003Aq-HP; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:04:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL7rY-0000VJ-I5 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:26:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03775 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL84P-0005xK-3m for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:39:37 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A196F37F01; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D5437ED2; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CD937E48; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CL7qy-0000yS-48; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:25:44 +0200 Message-ID: <417988E9.4040006@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:25:45 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <86d5za3cab.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Touching on just a few of the points, below Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: ... >> under the impression that you were opposed to backdoor practice >> changes in other respects, so what makes this one different? > > > Not sure what other backdoors you are referring to, but I am happy with > making a small step towards HTML rendering of RFCs. Henrik has a good > point -- if HTML is produced, it does not need to be displayed. We can > toy with that second step later. Sounds good to me. > Alternatively, we can say that HTML production is out of scope. The > draft rendering tool will do that (runtime? and cache results?). > >> Do we worry about cases of mismatch between PDF and plain text? With >> manual processing, the Secretariat can give it a cursory examination >> and see that it looks like the same document with the same authors. >> With automatic storage, that check would be gone. It would seem to me >> that to submissions with PDF should be processed manually. > > > I have no strong opinion here. I am OK with not permitting PDFs to be > auto-posted > until they can be interpreted. I will make this change unless somebody > objects. I'm not sure we have a strong reason to go either way, and would propose that we don't specify this, but leave it to the implementers in that case. ... >>> > # submission date: Draft submission date. >>> > >>> > Should this be extracted from the draft or from the clock? >>> >>> Definitely from the draft. >> >> >> Should there be a requirement to compare the clock with the extracted >> date and produce an error if the extracted date is more than a day in >> the future (to allow for time zones) or more than a week in the past? > > > I was going to leave specific values to the implementors, but can > specify them if we think they are likely to get it wrong. No, leave it to the implementers. >> Version numbers become quite a bit less useful when they might be the >> same for different documents. ``I'm reading -04 and it says...'' -- >> ``Where are you looking? I'm reading -04 and it doesn't say that.'' > > > Indeed. However, I do not think that the Toolset can solve that problem > if people continue to look at non-posted drafts. My hope is that with the > Toolset in place, the number of public non-posted drafts will be > negligible. > The Toolset enforces unique version numbers. Other means of sharing > drafts do not. > >>> > Also, the new version needs to be greater than all the existing ones. >>> >>> That's an absolute requirement R22. >> >> >> Then it can't be equal to an existing version number? Or can it? > > > It cannot be. Does something imply it can? Sorry, I may have lost > context here... Don't know, but anyway, it seems right to me to enforce contiguous non-overlapping numbers. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 19:20:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12517; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8ue-0000Lv-QS; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:33:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8TJ-0003ud-MQ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:05:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL7yM-0005K9-6R for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:33:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04299 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8BC-00069S-Bo for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:46:39 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id C316737FBD; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:32:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C8837ED2; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:32:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A430E37E42; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:32:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CL7xm-000147-Ev; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:32:46 +0200 Message-ID: <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:32:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > > Since nobody is supporting my position, I will add > the in-body email submission feature back. And here I've only been away from mail for 10 hours or so, to take care of some visitors from abroad :-) I think there are enough of problems with separating out text before and after the actual draft text that it would be best not to go there, if we can avoid it. I was going to propose that instead of accepting draft in the body, we consider accepting links to drafts available by http, as suggested earlier by Stas, as a less problematic compromise. What say you (and I'm prepared to duck if you both throw eggs :-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 19:26:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13168; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL915-0000Xz-Gt; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:40:16 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8h6-00059V-OV; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:19:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8Q3-0002GP-6B for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:01:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10116 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8cx-00085M-JV for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:15:20 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9MN1vJ2017803; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:01:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:01:56 -0600 To: "Henrik Levkowetz" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: > I was going to propose that instead of accepting draft in the > body, we consider accepting links to drafts available by http, > as suggested earlier by Stas, as a less problematic compromise. Reliable support for URL-fetching would take a lot of cycles to implement, IMHO, with little Toolset code reuse. I can add it as a useful feature, but I am reluctant to suggest that it is supported soon. Alex. P.S. I should remember to use Stas' trick next time I am up against the IETF meeting cut-off deadline -- send a URL and buy yourself a few more editing days until the Secretariat gets to it! I bet a checksum was not required :-). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 19:28:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13362; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL92a-0000aZ-Em; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:41:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8o0-0001Ev-Vm; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:26:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8Zk-00005L-7k for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:12:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA11936 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:11:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8md-00009m-Jx for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:25:21 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 3EACD3818E; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:11:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3166C37E4C; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:11:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0131637E49; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:11:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CL8ZC-0001uN-RP; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:11:26 +0200 Message-ID: <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:11:28 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: > >> I was going to propose that instead of accepting draft in the >> body, we consider accepting links to drafts available by http, >> as suggested earlier by Stas, as a less problematic compromise. > > > Reliable support for URL-fetching would take a lot of cycles to > implement, IMHO, with little Toolset code reuse. I can add it as a > useful feature, but I am reluctant to suggest that it is supported soon. Hmm, maybe we have different experiences here - I expect it to be as simple as " import urllib fh = urllib.open(url) draft = fh.reaad() fh.close() " which is about what it would come to in Python... Henrik > Alex. > > P.S. I should remember to use Stas' trick next time I am up against the > IETF meeting cut-off deadline -- send a URL and buy yourself a few more > editing days until the Secretariat gets to it! I bet a checksum was not > required :-). Devious ,,:-) _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 22 19:39:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14098; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL9Db-0000nd-AY; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:53:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8p7-0002AA-17; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:27:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CL8jL-0007I0-2o for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:21:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12746 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CL8wF-0000Qa-0i for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:35:16 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9MNLqJ2018647; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:21:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Henrik Levkowetz" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:21:51 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/10/22 (MDT), wrote: > Hmm, maybe we have different experiences here - I expect it to be as > simple as > > " > import urllib > fh = urllib.open(url) > draft = fh.reaad() > fh.close() > " The above code would probably fail in many cases and leave the submitter in the dark as to why. Hacking this in is easy; doing it Right is not, IMO. But, again, I do not have strong preferences here. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 23 01:37:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14850; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLEo9-0006KC-BY; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:51:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLEXJ-00070d-Vx; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:33:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLETA-0004eW-Oc for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:29:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14555 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLEg7-0006Ed-Qy for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:43:01 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9N5TUJ2034423; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:29:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9N5TSui034422; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:29:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:29:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: IETF Tools , Brian E Carpenter Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Basically, you want to use the first group of > /draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)-*/, I'd say. Currently, when chairs slip > up, wg-drafts can happen to have names like draft--* or > draft-name--*, or even draft-lastname-* (our reviewers gave such examples). > but I'd like those to explicitly have to go the manual route - let > the tool only accept as wg drafts drafts which have 'well-formed' wg > draft names. While documenting that, I realized that we may have a problem. The Toolset may not be able to distinguish badly-named WG drafts from well-named individual drafts and, hence, will either prohibit auto-posting of 00 versions of many valid individual drafts OR allow auto-posting of 00 versions of some WG drafts without Chair approval! > (as an aside, I slipped up this week when an author submitted a > draft named draft-mip4-faerr-00.txt instead of > draft-ietf-mip4-faerr-00.txt, and I'd really, really have wanted the > tool to catch that, not let it through...) At this late hour, it seems to me that the solution is to say that if and only if the draft name matches /^draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)/, the draft is treated as a WG draft. WGs and Chairs that do not obey the convention will have to deal with the consequences. Note that since it is easy to resubmit with the right name, it may not be a big deal if a Chair makes a mistake. The Toolset should say how it is treating a draft so that the submitter knows what is going on. The Toolset may warn if a non-WG draft contains a known working group name after /^draft-/. Or, better, if the token in that position does not match any of the author last names or email "logins". IIRC, Brian Carpenter (CCed) supports the above let-them-deal-with-their-own-mess solution. An alternative is to ask the submitter of 00 version whether the draft is a WG draft, but I am not sure that is any better than the above. Comments? Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 23 04:44:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09203; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLHjC-0000tB-Ht; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:58:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLHPU-0004f9-U1; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:38:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLHLV-0002ti-9E for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:33:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08470 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLHYU-0000ju-0h for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:47:19 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B53773815D; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:33:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D0C38156; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:33:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDAD337E4A; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:33:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CLHKp-0002wU-ID; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:33:18 +0200 Message-ID: <417A1749.3010709@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:33:13 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF Tools , Brian E Carpenter Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Basically, you want to use the first group of >> /draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)-*/, I'd say. Currently, when chairs slip up, >> wg-drafts can happen to have names like draft--* or >> draft-name--*, > > > or even draft-lastname-* (our reviewers gave such examples). > >> but I'd like those to explicitly have to go the manual route - let the >> tool only accept as wg drafts drafts which have 'well-formed' wg draft >> names. > > > While documenting that, I realized that we may have a problem. The > Toolset may not be able to distinguish badly-named WG drafts from > well-named individual drafts and, hence, will either prohibit > auto-posting of 00 versions of many valid individual drafts OR allow > auto-posting of 00 versions of some WG drafts without Chair approval! Noo, I don't think that's right - at least you'll have to give me some examples so I can see it. An individual draft may _not_ be named draft-ietf-*, while WG drafts which are not named draft-ietf-* should not be automatically processed. That's a clear split, and clear decision point, no? Or have I missed some aspect of this? >> (as an aside, I slipped up this week when an author submitted a draft >> named draft-mip4-faerr-00.txt instead of draft-ietf-mip4-faerr-00.txt, >> and I'd really, really have wanted the tool to catch that, not let it >> through...) > > > At this late hour, it seems to me that the solution is to say that if > and only if the draft name matches /^draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)/, the draft > is treated as a WG draft. WGs and Chairs that do not obey the convention > will have to deal with the consequences. Note that since it is easy to > resubmit with the right name, it may not be a big deal if a Chair makes > a mistake. Ah, yes, it seems we're in agreement, after all. > The Toolset should say how it is treating a draft so that the submitter > knows what is going on. Yes > The Toolset may warn if a non-WG draft contains a known working group > name after /^draft-/. Or, better, if the token in that position does not > match any of the author last names or email "logins". Yes > IIRC, Brian Carpenter (CCed) supports the above > let-them-deal-with-their-own-mess solution. > > An alternative is to ask the submitter of 00 version whether the draft > is a WG draft, but I am not sure that is any better than the above. No, it leads to new choices and adds complexity without giving a noticeably better solution, I think. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 01:02:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02278; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLxD3-00058y-7l; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:15:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLwww-0003SF-VL; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:59:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLwvu-0003N8-TG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:58:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02073 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLx9F-00054U-Re for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:12:03 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9P4w8J2080731; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:58:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9P4w70N080730; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:58:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:58:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt In-Reply-To: <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20041024224654.A66511@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: IETF Tools X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Alex Rousskov wrote: >> >> Since nobody is supporting my position, I will add >> the in-body email submission feature back. > > And here I've only been away from mail for 10 hours or so, to > take care of some visitors from abroad :-) > > I think there are enough of problems with separating out text > before and after the actual draft text that it would be best > not to go there, if we can avoid it. Since validation routines would reject virtually all drafts with signatures and such, I think we can accept in-body submissions. It seems to me that we are opening a can of worms with the email submission interface itself (due to popular demand, of course); killing this particular worm seems pointless. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 02:12:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19641; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLyJO-0006Rd-A7; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:26:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLy54-0005Ie-Sb; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:11:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLy3F-0004b8-CH; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:09:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA16763; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLyGb-0006On-Hc; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:23:43 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9P69nJ2084168; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:09:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9P69nTr084167; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:09:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:09:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041025000730.G66511@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335" Content-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a21f0efa11c2f2a9ed6367f24405e7f1 Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: [Tools-team] Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ce70251223e0568202c589a3096cb179 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; FORMAT=flowed Content-ID: Please post the attached draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt file as a Tools team Internet-Draft. 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Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --0-1760766578-1081786212=:13335-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 02:23:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA22542; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLyTl-0006ew-Te; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:37:18 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLyEr-0000yN-OV; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:21:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLyBl-00089E-E6 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:18:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA21685 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLyP9-0006X4-Rp for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:32:32 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9P6IdJ2084573; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:18:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9P6IdTB084572; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:18:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:18:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: IETF Tools In-Reply-To: <20041025000730.G66511@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <20041025001052.J66511@measurement-factory.com> References: <20041025000730.G66511@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Alex Rousskov wrote: > Please post the attached draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt > file as a Tools team Internet-Draft. I hope this version addresses all issues raised so far. I did not have enough time to polish the document, unfortunately. If I did not miss anything important, we can still last call it and then polish as comments arrive. I suspect that, due to many last-minute discussions/changes, we still have a few bugs to fix. However, we are likely to make changes after the first IETF-wide Last Call anyway, and the document is ready for wider review, IMO. Please see the Change Log for specific major changes (quoted below). Thanks, Alex. ----------- change log -------------------- version 06 * Instead of using a special section to map requirements to Toolset implementation stages, encode the stage with each requirement. The reader now knows requirement "urgency" when reading the requirement itself, instead of having to search for the requirement code in the "Implementation stages" section. Also, this makes it much easier to make sure that all requirements are "staged". * Reflected Tools team concerns about HTML generation by placing that feature in the Enhancement implementation stage and explicitly mentioning that the feature may be gone before its implemented. * Added R143/a to avoid mismatching formats: Drafts containing PDF or Postscript format must not be auto-posted until the Toolset can validate that their content matches plain text format. Documented rationale and future direction for format acceptance rules. * Defined "WG draft" as a draft which name starts with "draft-ietf-". All other drafts are treated as individual drafts. * Support (eventually) fetching draft data using an email-embedded URL (Stanislav Shalunov). * Re-Resolved XXX37: support submitting drafts in main email "body", not just attachments (Stanislav Shalunov). * Renamed draft submission date into draft version creation date and documented how creation and expiration dates are validated and the fact that they do not depend on submission time. * Required implementation to be open-source (see R144/a). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 11:38:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05272; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM79I-0000Zh-7w; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:52:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM6uG-0003bB-Mb; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM6n6-0000SX-Vw for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:29:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04595 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM70a-0000Pr-7D for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:43:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7B31CD848 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05774-08 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1AE1CD795 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:29:47 -0400 (EDT) To: IETF Tools Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 25 Oct 2004 11:30:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <86pt36zugw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Henrik Levkowetz writes: > import urllib > fh = urllib.open(url) > draft = fh.reaad() > fh.close() Or, in a different language, use LWP::Simple; my $draft = get($url) or die "could not fetch draft at $url\n"; [The use of die assumes HTTP headers are already sent.] But one could, of course, get fancy and give the submitter an error code by switching from get() to getstore(). With the instantaneous workings of the Toolset (as opposed to human-timescale Secretariat), URL submission via email would become less useful as a disconnected feature. Alex Rousskov writes: > P.S. I should remember to use Stas' trick next time I am up against > the IETF meeting cut-off deadline -- send a URL and buy yourself a > few more editing days until the Secretariat gets to it! I bet a > checksum was not required :-). But I always send a cryptographic checksum along (in a PGP-signed message), so no cheating here. By the way, how about we make the requirements a little less agnostic with respect to (cryptographically understood) integrity? Of course, this is not the first priority, but eventually secure communication with the I-D repository should be available to those who want it. I'd argue it's a higher priority item that, say, PDF parsing. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying that I approved of it." -- Mark Twain _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 12:08:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09643; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM7cP-0001mD-9U; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:22:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM7IN-0000Cd-CQ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:02:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM72N-0004sl-51 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05906 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM7Fp-0000hE-MT for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:59:31 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9PFjWJ2004456; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:45:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "stanislav shalunov" , "IETF Tools" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86k6tmj62r.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041022005822.G697@volx.measurement-factory.com> <86lldy3evw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <868y9y39go.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41798A8F.7000501@levkowetz.com> <417993A0.7070601@levkowetz.com> <86pt36zugw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:45:32 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86pt36zugw.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/10/25 (MDT), wrote: > how about we make the > requirements a little less agnostic with respect to (cryptographically > understood) integrity? Of course, this is not the first priority, but > eventually secure communication with the I-D repository should be > available to those who want it. I'd argue it's a higher priority item > that, say, PDF parsing. I agree that PDF parsing should have lower priority than better authentication. On the other hand, I do not think that ID Submission draft is the place to document better authentication. Even the current level of authentication detail in that draft is excessive, IMO. There needs to be a stand-alone document that describes how IETF tools should authenticate their users when authentication is needed. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 12:58:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13719; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM8OS-0002q6-Ia; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:12:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM87V-0003Xf-6S; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:54:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CM7uB-0007I8-GJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12671 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CM87f-0002V1-J2 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:55:07 -0400 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A183A7B02; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id i9PGedM25675; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: rousskov@measurement-factory.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:40:38 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 >At this late hour, it seems to me that the solution is to say that if >and only if the draft name matches /^draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)/, the >draft is treated as a WG draft. WGs and Chairs that do not obey the >convention will have to deal with the consequences. Note that since it >is easy to resubmit with the right name, it may not be a big deal if a >Chair makes a mistake. I know the hour is now beyond late, but here's my view anyway: for -00 documents, draft-ietf-* is a "WG draft", draft-lastname-* is not. For non-00s, there's a database that knows if something that's not draft-ietf-WG is still a WG draft. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 15:32:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26771; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMAnm-0005iQ-Dl; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:46:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMATn-0007mx-GM; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:26:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMASF-0006aP-Sn for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:24:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26228 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMAfl-0005av-74 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:38:29 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9PJOQJ2015365; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:25 -0600 To: "Bill Fenner" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/10/25 (MDT), wrote: > I know the hour is now beyond late, but here's my view anyway: for > -00 documents, draft-ietf-* is a "WG draft", draft-lastname-* is not. > For non-00s, there's a database that knows if something that's not > draft-ietf-WG is still a WG draft. The Toolset does not currently care about WG flag for versions other than 00. The only exception I can think of is allowing WG Chair to post an N+1 version of a WG draft. In the future, there may be features like automated WG notification or automated WG pages updates that would benefit from correct WG flag setting. On the other hand, if IETF starts to enforce the naming policy, there will be no poorly named drafts in the future! In your opinion, should we use a simple-but-rigid scheme in hope that uniform naming of WG drafts is going to be enforced? Or should we assume no long-term enforcement and opt for a complex-but-flexible scheme instead? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 15:39:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27328; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMAuP-0005rv-Er; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:53:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMAaL-00029R-He; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:32:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMAZE-0001f4-6d for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:31:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26728 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMAmi-0005hD-N9 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:45:41 -0400 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B475B1974DC; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id i9PJVBP28491; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: rousskov@measurement-factory.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:31:11 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 >In your opinion, should we use a simple-but-rigid scheme in hope that >uniform naming of WG drafts is going to be enforced? I think of it a different way: the only possible name for a WG -00 is draft-ietf-WGNAME. If it's not named that, then it's not a WG -00. The WG chair can later reclassify it to become a WG document by asking the secretariat to modify the database, but that's the part that this doesn't care about. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 19:35:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16425; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMEaR-0003eO-77; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:49:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMBa2-0005DV-VC; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:36:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMBP6-0006Ko-VZ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:25:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04319 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMBcb-0007qQ-TZ for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:39:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3121CD8C7 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21886-06 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06271CD8C2 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:25:18 -0400 (EDT) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 25 Oct 2004 16:25:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> Message-ID: <86hdoizgsd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Bill Fenner writes: > I think of it a different way: the only possible name for a WG -00 > is draft-ietf-WGNAME. If it's not named that, then it's not a WG -00. Amen. > The WG chair can later reclassify it to become a WG document by asking > the secretariat to modify the database, but that's the part that this > doesn't care about. I would go even further: if it becomes a WG draft, the name gets changed to draft-ietf-[...]. I'm not really sure how this compares to existing practice, but the ability to tell, at a glance, whether a draft is individual is actually no less useful for humans than for the submission tool. And while the submission tool might keep a database, humans have difficulty keeping databases in their heads; in this case, the advantages of a database over a naming convention aren't even clear. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 25 22:05:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA00670; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMGwD-0007J2-2k; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:19:53 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMGha-0000yN-7B; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:04:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMGh8-0000lA-VN for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:04:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA00562 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMGug-0007HJ-UJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:18:20 -0400 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9Q24FJ2033571; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:04:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i9Q24Fhx033570; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:04:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:04:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt In-Reply-To: <86hdoizgsd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041025194816.V32644@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> <86hdoizgsd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Bill Fenner writes: > >> I think of it a different way: the only possible name for a WG -00 >> is draft-ietf-WGNAME. If it's not named that, then it's not a WG -00. > > Amen. That's what we have codified already. >> The WG chair can later reclassify it to become a WG document by >> asking the secretariat to modify the database, but that's the part >> that this doesn't care about. Except for giving WG Chairs permission to submit WG drafts. If the Toolset does not know that a draft is a WG draft, then the Toolset does not let the WG Chair submit new versions. This is not a big deal. > I would go even further: if it becomes a WG draft, the name gets > changed to draft-ietf-[...]. That's what we have codified already, essentially (because one can always change a draft name by submitting a new draft with the new name). Bill is suggesting to give WGs flexibility in naming drafts after version 00. As Stas, I would prefer a simple and consistent (albeit rigid) scheme where no external mapping is needed because I have not seen any arguments why keeping the same draft name is more important than giving readers and tools a simple way to distinguish WG drafts. I would also give authors tools to specify that a given draft forks from another draft, so that the draft history is maintained. That ability would be useful in general, not just for drafts becoming WG drafts. Bill, what is the motivation behind letting draft names NOT reflect their status for version other than 00? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 07:25:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25249; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMPfP-0000mq-JW; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:39:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMPQW-0007gZ-SD; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:23:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMPMu-0006dj-2f for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:20:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA24598 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMPaY-0000eL-6R for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:34:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC7761C21; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:19:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22380-10; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8432B61C14; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:19:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:11:01 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt Message-ID: <2B2C6E5EA280501B83D916FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20041025194816.V32644@measurement-factory.com> References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> <86hdoizgsd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041025194816.V32644@measurement-factory.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 25. oktober 2004 20:04 -0600 Alex Rousskov wrote: > Bill, what is the motivation behind letting draft names NOT reflect their > status for version other than 00? The typical case has been where the author/editor thinks that the last version of the individual-named draft is already ready to pass to the IESG, so one "shouldn't bother". The typical case is that this turned out to not be the case...... _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 26 11:48:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17241; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTmo-000636-Bv; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:03:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTTk-0005F0-Bh; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:43:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMTNm-0003t9-R3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:37:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16100 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMTbP-0005lg-VC for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:51:19 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9QFauJ2064061; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:36:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <200410251640.i9PGedM25675@windsor.research.att.com> <200410251931.i9PJVBP28491@windsor.research.att.com> <86hdoizgsd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041025194816.V32644@measurement-factory.com> <2B2C6E5EA280501B83D916FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:36:55 -0600 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2B2C6E5EA280501B83D916FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 2004/10/26 (MDT), wrote: > --On 25. oktober 2004 20:04 -0600 Alex Rousskov > wrote: > >> Bill, what is the motivation behind letting draft names NOT reflect >> their >> status for version other than 00? > > The typical case has been where the author/editor thinks that the last > version of the individual-named draft is already ready to pass to the > IESG, so one "shouldn't bother". > > The typical case is that this turned out to not be the case...... Would it be so bad to rename the draft at that point in time (as opposed to re-classifying it as a WG draft)? Especially if we have a way to "link" to the original draft to preserve history? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 10:57:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11395; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMpTJ-0007Dm-5f; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:12:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMp8h-0002ID-SI; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:51:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMp3H-0000q6-UW for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:45:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10265 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMpHA-0006sw-6F for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:59:49 -0400 Received: by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id AE52637EEB; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:44:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02C037EC1 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:44:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9C338004 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:44:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMp2g-0002L6-6Z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:44:50 +0200 Message-ID: <417FB45F.4060203@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:44:47 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Nothing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. Nothing 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up I have a request for IETF last call prepared, and will send it up if we agree we're ready to do so with the current revision, -06. 4. Action item review. * Alex: Send out version -05 of the draft by Friday. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. * Henrik: Clear solicitation for new team members with Harald. * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 27 Oct, 16:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 12:52:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21924; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrGV-0001aK-Kl; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:07:16 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMqvI-0006z3-Jg; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:45:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMqrT-0005zQ-RQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:41:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21010 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMr5N-0001Lb-0L for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:55:45 -0400 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A358837E69; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:40:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB3E37E48 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:40:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD043801C for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:40:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMqqv-0005Tl-Er for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:40:49 +0200 Message-ID: <417FCF93.3070506@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:40:51 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 27 October 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Nothing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. Nothing 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft, and wrapping that up I have a request for IETF last call prepared, and will send it up if we agree we're ready to do so with the current revision, -06. Agreement all around to request IETF last call on this version 4. Action item review. * Alex: Send out version -05 of the draft by Friday. Done, also -06 out. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. - * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. - * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. - * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. - * Henrik: Clear solicitation for new team members with Harald. Done, go-ahead received. Solicitation to go out on wgchairs list and tools-discuss list, and buttonholing people in Washington is also OK. * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. Request prepared, ready to send. 6. Any other business. Harald has set aside 30 minutes for us during the gen-area meeting in Washington. 7. Action items for next week: * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. * Henrik: Send out solicitation to wgchairs and tools-discuss for more team members * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. 8. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 3 Nov, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 13:13:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23502; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrak-00023d-4T; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:28:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMrLL-00046K-OE; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:12:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMr6s-0001Bv-9i for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:57:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22299 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrKk-0001hF-OL for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:11:40 -0400 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8BDD737EC2; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF0B37E5F; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C86237E49; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMr6J-0005oj-4H; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:56:43 +0200 Message-ID: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:56:45 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Request for IETF last call on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Harald, I'm hereby requesting an IETF last call on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt . I am not sending this note as a publication request to the secretariat, as I'm not sure that it's right to publish this as an RFC, but if you think that should be done, let me know and I'll send this to them too. In any case, below is the publication check-list. Regards, Henrik ---- 1) Have the chairs personally reviewed this version of the ID and do they believe this ID is sufficiently baked to forward to the IESG for publication? Yes, and yes. 2) Has the document had adequate review from both key WG members and key non-WG members? Do you have any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that have been performed? Yes, it has been reviewed both within and outside the team, and I'm satisfied with the reviews so far. 3) Do you have concerns that the document needs more review from a particular (broader) perspective (e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with AAA, etc.)? The review needed now is IETF-wide review. 4) Do you have any specific concerns/issues with this document that you believe the ADs and/or IESG should be aware of? For example, perhaps you are uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or whether there really is a need for it, etc., but at the same time these issues have been discussed in the WG and the WG has indicated it wishes to advance the document anyway. There are two concerns: A. I'd like to have a change in policy in what the secretariat accepts, so it would accept and keep xml versions of drafts, but I think this is outside the scope of this draft, and may need a request to the secretariat to change policy in this respect. B. I would also have liked to have the draft more exactly specify that chair approval of -00 workgroup drafts should be possible both as pre- and post- approval, and both through a web interface and through mail, but the team could not agree on this. 5) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with it? Apart from item B mentioned above, the team consensus is clearly behind this document. 6) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summarize what are they upset about. No. 7) Have the chairs verified that the document adheres to _all_ of the ID nits? (see http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html). Yes. 8) Does the document a) split references into normative/informative, and b) are there normative references to IDs, where the IDs are not also ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? (Note: the RFC editor will not publish an RFC with normative references to IDs, it will delay publication until all such IDs are also ready for publication as RFCs.) a) Yes, references are split b) No, there are no IDs among the normative references. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 15:37:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06377; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMtq5-0005JV-HB; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:52:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMta9-0008Ng-UV; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:35:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMtTs-0004Dx-8v for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:29:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05554 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMthm-00059J-EV for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:43:35 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9RJSsJ2036349 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:28:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:28:53 -0600 To: "IETF TOOLS" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Request for IETF last call on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt References: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/10/27 (MDT), wrote: > B. I would also have liked to have the draft more exactly specify > that chair approval of -00 workgroup drafts should be possible > both as pre- and post- approval, and both through a web interface > and through mail, but the team could not agree on this. I have no problem with specifying these things "more exactly" as long as we do not end up documenting out-of-scope tools. The current wording was meant to imply that both pre- and post- submission approvals are supported. There is no disagreement on this anymore (although the text can be improved). I do not think ID submission draft should document in detail how pre- or post-submission approval is done. Both can and should be automated, IMO, but I think such automation is out of this draft scope. Do you disagree? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 27 19:31:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27823; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMxUa-0002GD-J4; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:46:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMx9t-0005V1-8c; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:24:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMx7q-00053Z-Gn for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:22:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27076 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMxLn-00022H-BD for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:37:08 -0400 Received: by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 0DC4537E80; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCFE37E4B; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:22:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE29238006; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:22:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMx7J-00029i-Cx; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:22:09 +0200 Message-ID: <41802DA1.4000302@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:22:09 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Request for IETF last call on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt References: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex, Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 2004/10/27 (MDT), wrote: > >> B. I would also have liked to have the draft more exactly specify >> that chair approval of -00 workgroup drafts should be possible >> both as pre- and post- approval, and both through a web interface >> and through mail, but the team could not agree on this. > > > I have no problem with specifying these things "more exactly" as long > as we do not end up documenting out-of-scope tools. The current wording > was meant to imply that both pre- and post- submission approvals are > supported. There is no disagreement on this anymore (although the text > can be improved). Ok, good to have that clear. > I do not think ID submission draft should document in detail how pre- > or post-submission approval is done. Both can and should be automated, > IMO, but I think such automation is out of this draft scope. Do you > disagree? Well, I would have preferred it to be specified in this document, as I think it will be implemented as part of this tool. But I haven't wanted to re-engage in what I felt was a discussion we'd already had, and failed to reach an agreement on. I guess it will work out without a more full specification, too. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 31 07:08:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18373; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COEkk-00030X-Ti; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:24:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COENc-0002Eh-G1; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:00:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLKiT-0006rB-4N for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20869 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.104]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLKvU-000448-QI for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:23:17 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9NC9ACE738122; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:10 -0400 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id i9NC990v289508; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:09 -0400 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-222-30.de.ibm.com [9.146.222.30]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA42232; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:09:07 +0200 Message-ID: <417A49E6.3030008@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:09:10 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz References: <86oeiyj6f1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041020221114.J15900@measurement-factory.com> <4178C3E2.2000106@levkowetz.com> <20041022230520.J29145@measurement-factory.com> <417A1749.3010709@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <417A1749.3010709@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:00:15 -0500 Cc: IETF Tools Subject: [Tools-team] Re: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-04.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only problem case would be if somebody shows up whose own name happens to be ietf. Now that may seem unlikely, but we are a multinational organisation, so we can't totally exclude it. However, I won't lose sleep over it, until Mr or Ms Ietf does become an active IETF author. Brian P.S. Of course, there's a DOS attack in which a bunch of people legally change their name to Ietf :-) Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Alex Rousskov wrote: > >> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> >>> Basically, you want to use the first group of >>> /draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)-*/, I'd say. Currently, when chairs slip up, >>> wg-drafts can happen to have names like draft--* or >>> draft-name--*, >> >> >> >> or even draft-lastname-* (our reviewers gave such examples). >> >>> but I'd like those to explicitly have to go the manual route - let >>> the tool only accept as wg drafts drafts which have 'well-formed' wg >>> draft names. >> >> >> >> While documenting that, I realized that we may have a problem. The >> Toolset may not be able to distinguish badly-named WG drafts from >> well-named individual drafts and, hence, will either prohibit >> auto-posting of 00 versions of many valid individual drafts OR allow >> auto-posting of 00 versions of some WG drafts without Chair approval! > > > Noo, I don't think that's right - at least you'll have to give me > some examples so I can see it. An individual draft may _not_ be > named draft-ietf-*, while WG drafts which are not named draft-ietf-* > should not be automatically processed. That's a clear split, and > clear decision point, no? Or have I missed some aspect of this? > >>> (as an aside, I slipped up this week when an author submitted a draft >>> named draft-mip4-faerr-00.txt instead of >>> draft-ietf-mip4-faerr-00.txt, and I'd really, really have wanted the >>> tool to catch that, not let it through...) >> >> >> >> At this late hour, it seems to me that the solution is to say that if >> and only if the draft name matches /^draft-ietf-([a-z0-9]+)/, the >> draft is treated as a WG draft. WGs and Chairs that do not obey the >> convention will have to deal with the consequences. Note that since it >> is easy to resubmit with the right name, it may not be a big deal if a >> Chair makes a mistake. > > > Ah, yes, it seems we're in agreement, after all. > >> The Toolset should say how it is treating a draft so that the >> submitter knows what is going on. > > > Yes > >> The Toolset may warn if a non-WG draft contains a known working group >> name after /^draft-/. Or, better, if the token in that position does >> not match any of the author last names or email "logins". > > > Yes > >> IIRC, Brian Carpenter (CCed) supports the above >> let-them-deal-with-their-own-mess solution. >> >> An alternative is to ask the submitter of 00 version whether the draft >> is a WG draft, but I am not sure that is any better than the above. > > > No, it leads to new choices and adds complexity without giving > a noticeably better solution, I think. > > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team