From mailman-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 1 08:49:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA02924 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COcnY-0007Wv-N5 for tools-team-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:04:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COZhu-0007bE-M0 for tools-team-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 05:46:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: tools-team-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 05:18:26 -0500 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Mailman site list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. 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Passwords for tools-team-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-team@ietf.org fuuwuh https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-team/tools-team-archive%40ietf.org From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 08:04:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05153; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPL3S-00042t-6E; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:20:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPKYd-000406-OI; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:48:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPKTp-0002Fy-Ly for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:43:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA03452 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPKj9-0003L4-Bp for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:59:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9E461AD4; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06891-02; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBBD61BDE; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:42:00 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Henrik Levkowetz , IETF TOOLS Message-ID: <5E7A5CDE795C332282A6F2E1@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> References: <417FD34D.40907@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Request for IETF last call on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shipped! I sent out this as a 3-week "request for comment" rather than a normal Last Call (3 weeks being a 2-week call lengthened by 1 week for the IETF week). Hope I described it rightly! Harald --On 27. oktober 2004 18:56 +0200 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Harald, > > I'm hereby requesting an IETF last call on > draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt . I am not sending this > note as a publication request to the secretariat, as I'm not sure > that it's right to publish this as an RFC, but if you think that > should be done, let me know and I'll send this to them too. In any case, > below is the publication check-list. > > Regards, > > Henrik > > ---- > > 1) Have the chairs personally reviewed this version of the ID and do > they believe this ID is sufficiently baked to forward to the IESG > for publication? > > Yes, and yes. > > 2) Has the document had adequate review from both key WG members and > key non-WG members? Do you have any concerns about the depth or > breadth of the reviews that have been performed? > > Yes, it has been reviewed both within and outside the team, and > I'm satisfied with the reviews so far. > > 3) Do you have concerns that the document needs more review from a > particular (broader) perspective (e.g., security, operational > complexity, someone familiar with AAA, etc.)? > > The review needed now is IETF-wide review. > > 4) Do you have any specific concerns/issues with this document that > you believe the ADs and/or IESG should be aware of? For example, > perhaps you are uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, > or whether there really is a need for it, etc., but at the same > time these issues have been discussed in the WG and the WG has > indicated it wishes to advance the document anyway. > > There are two concerns: > > A. I'd like to have a change in policy in what the secretariat > accepts, so it would accept and keep xml versions of drafts, but > I think this is outside the scope of this draft, and may need > a request to the secretariat to change policy in this respect. > > B. I would also have liked to have the draft more exactly specify > that chair approval of -00 workgroup drafts should be possible both > as pre- and post- approval, and both through a web interface > and through mail, but the team could not agree on this. > > 5) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it > represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others > being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with > it? > > Apart from item B mentioned above, the team consensus is clearly > behind this document. > > 6) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme > discontent? If so, please summarize what are they upset about. > > No. > > 7) Have the chairs verified that the document adheres to _all_ of the > ID nits? (see http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html). > > Yes. > > 8) Does the document a) split references into normative/informative, > and b) are there normative references to IDs, where the IDs are not > also ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? > (Note: the RFC editor will not publish an RFC with normative > references to IDs, it will delay publication until all such IDs are > also ready for publication as RFCs.) > > a) Yes, references are split > b) No, there are no IDs among the normative references. > > > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 11:39:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24689; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOPf-0000qm-Mn; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:55:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPNyG-0003pG-2i; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:26:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPNql-0002WN-N0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:19:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23113 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPO65-0000QI-CL for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:35:00 -0500 Received: by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 8061937E4E; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:18:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1D337E4E for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:18:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0AB3800B for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:18:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPNqC-0006vN-Dq for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:18:32 +0100 Message-ID: <418904D7.7000902@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:18:31 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 3 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 4. Action item review. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. * Henrik: Send out solicitation to wgchairs and tools-discuss for more team members * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: 8. Next meeting: Genarea meeting, Tuesday November 9, 15:45 - 16:45 Face-to-face meeting at the IETF for those who are there, after the Genarea meeting? Teleconference Wednesday 17 Nov, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 11:52:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26438; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOcc-0001Ie-Mw; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:08:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOAx-00064x-J1; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:39:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPO5M-0004vj-I8 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:34:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24480 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPOKh-0000kq-8c for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:50:04 -0500 Received: by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id EE96237E5F; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:33:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av2-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF83D37E42 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:33:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C0238026 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:33:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPO4p-000799-M3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:33:39 +0100 Message-ID: <41890863.5010006@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:33:39 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] New TOOLS Team Members? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Below is the text I propose to send to the tools-discuss and wgchairs mailing lists: -------- Hi, The TOOLS team is in need of some new members. With the IETF-wide call for comments on the requirements for a draft submission tool, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 [1] we are approaching the completion of our first task. However, the list of desirable tools we would like to work on [2] is large enough that we would like to go forward on several of them in parallel, and for that more manpower is needed. If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, or if you know someone else who might be interested, please send a note to tools-team@ietf.org . For more information on the TOOLS team, visit the charter page [3] Thanks! Henrik [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt [2] http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList [3] http://tools.ietf.org/charter-page _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 12:40:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01194; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPMp-0002Uc-Ol; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:56:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOyp-0000OX-3Q; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:31:31 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOoR-0006wa-5M for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:20:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29156 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPP3m-0001yZ-OP for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:36:41 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7547EA7B05 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iA3HKFv01014; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411031720.iA3HKFv01014@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:20:14 -0700 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [Tools-team] Databases of collected I-D info X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f FYI, I've been working on my databases, parsing all_ids.txt and 1id-abstracts.txt, to add to the dependencies, RFC-Editor's Queue and I-D Tracker dumps. A read-only view of most (some of the tracker data is hidden from this view, since a very small percentage of it is marked "private") of the data I'm collecting is at https://rtg.ietf.org/phpmyadmin/?pma_username=ietf&pma_password=ietf I'm still working on figuring out the tools to make the data useful, and figuring out how to make it easy for others to mirror it. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 12:41:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01356; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPPNy-0002Xb-9o; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:57:31 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPP4b-0001fz-B9; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:37:29 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPOsF-0007Un-N3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:24:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29382 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPP7b-000244-Pr for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:40:36 -0500 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id BE9B637E92; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D4537E50 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0533800C for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPOri-0000sy-5C for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:24:10 +0100 Message-ID: <41891438.3080809@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:24:08 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 3 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing None 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft Harald has sent out the IETF-wide call for comments, running 3 weeks till November 24th. 4. Action item review. * Henrik: Put all tool information into the XML format the page generation tool expects. Generate pages. - * Henrik: Try to make the tool XML files editable through the wiki. - * Henrik: Start a wiki page for expanded item description, send message to mailing list when ready to start discussion. Done: http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList * Henrik: Post slides for the Washington IETF meeting. - * Henrik: Send out solicitation to wgchairs and tools-discuss for more team members Prepared, not done * Henrik: Request last call of the draft from Harald. Done 6. Any other business. 7. Action items for next week: * Alex: Assist with slide text about the submission tool for the genarea slides * Henrik: Put together the slides, combining Alex' text with general info, call for new team members, and priority list info. 8. Next meeting: Face-to-face meeting at the IETF: Monday during dinner break, 17:30 - 19:30. Meet by the IETF registration desk. Genarea meeting, Tuesday November 9, 15:45 - 16:45 Teleconference Wednesday 17 Nov, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:19:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10129; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQuu-0004zz-3V; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:35:47 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQYI-0002C0-P5; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:12:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQWS-0001t4-6y for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:10:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09384 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob7.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.217] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQlc-0004n3-KH for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:26:12 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob7.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:09:09 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3J51QY027460; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA3J9d18027387; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.45]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6M002B09P3JG@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:51:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:51:03 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] New TOOLS Team Members? In-reply-to: <41890863.5010006@levkowetz.com> To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" , "'IETF TOOLS'" Message-id: <0I6M002B19P3JG@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTBxYntedNv0PxVQMGdGZRbZxjP6wAEBfXA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sorry I missed this morning... I suggest adding to the announcement, after > If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, or if > you know someone else who might be interested, please send a note to > tools-team@ietf.org . We're especially interested in people with experience in IETF processes (working group chairs, document editors) and experience with document and workflow automation software. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:31:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11067; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPR6E-0005Et-Qu; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:47:19 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQgr-0003Kp-2e; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:21:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQgR-0003Bf-K0; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:20:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10212; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQvn-00050c-Rt; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:36:33 -0500 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 84BF137EB7; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7699037E92; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1EE37E56; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPQfr-0002l6-TQ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:20:03 +0100 Message-ID: <41892F63.2010108@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:20:03 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Followup-To: IETF,TOOLS, To: Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: [Tools-team] New TOOLS Team Members? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The TOOLS team is in need of some new members. With the IETF-wide call for comments on the requirements for a draft submission tool, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 [1] we are approaching the completion of our first task. However, the list of desirable tools we would like to work on [2] is large enough that we would like to go forward on several of them in parallel, and for that more manpower is needed. If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, please send a note to tools-team@ietf.org, indicating items in [2] which you find interesting and would like to work on. If you know someone else who might be interested, a note to the tools-team@ietf.org to that effect would also be appreciated :-) For more information on the TOOLS team, visit the charter page [3] Thanks! Henrik [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt [2] http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList [3] http://tools.ietf.org/charter-page _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 14:37:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11794; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPRCT-0005OM-Vt; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:53:47 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQre-0004QB-Pb; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:32:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQkd-0003UR-9a for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:24:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10653 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPQzz-000575-Mz for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:40:53 -0500 Received: by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 3812637EB0; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:24:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av7-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F2937EA0; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:24:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0067B37E60; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:24:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPQk5-0002ne-AV; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:24:25 +0100 Message-ID: <41893069.1080401@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:24:25 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] New TOOLS Team Members? References: <0I6M002B19P3JG@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I6M002B19P3JG@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "'IETF TOOLS'" X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Larry, Larry Masinter wrote: > Sorry I missed this morning... > > I suggest adding to the announcement, after > > >>If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, or if >>you know someone else who might be interested, please send a note to >>tools-team@ietf.org . > > > We're especially interested in people with experience in IETF processes > (working group chairs, document editors) and experience with > document and workflow automation software. Thanks - I'm afraid the announcement is already sent, though. Hopefully it will give us the right kind of people, even if we missed this clarification... Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 15:18:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16185; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPRpb-0006OC-L3; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:34:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPRXO-0003qE-JG; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:15:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPQyz-0005P9-C9 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:39:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12078 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com ([144.189.100.101]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPREM-0005So-SM for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:55:43 -0500 Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (pobox4.mot.com [10.64.251.243]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate2) with ESMTP id iA3Jguk4021319 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:42:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com (ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com [10.14.33.5]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id iA3HdIsD003481 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:39:19 -0600 Received: by ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41DA@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> From: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 To: IETF TOOLS Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:39:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:15:21 -0500 Cc: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 Subject: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 I'd be interested in working on the "WG Meeting scheduler" tool. Donald =========================================================== Donald E. Eastlake III Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com Motorola Laboratories 1-508-786-7554 (work) 111 Locke Drive 1-508-634-2066 (home) Marlboro, MA 01752 USA -----Original Message----- From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henrik Levkowetz Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 2:20 PM To: Tools Team Discussion; WG Chairs Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: New TOOLS Team Members? Hi, The TOOLS team is in need of some new members. With the IETF-wide call for comments on the requirements for a draft submission tool, draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 [1] we are approaching the completion of our first task. However, the list of desirable tools we would like to work on [2] is large enough that we would like to go forward on several of them in parallel, and for that more manpower is needed. If you are interested and are able to contribute to this work, please send a note to tools-team@ietf.org, indicating items in [2] which you find interesting and would like to work on. If you know someone else who might be interested, a note to the tools-team@ietf.org to that effect would also be appreciated :-) For more information on the TOOLS team, visit the charter page [3] Thanks! Henrik [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt [2] http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList [3] http://tools.ietf.org/charter-page _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 5 17:44:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26928; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQCp7-0006gr-L9; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:44:49 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQCnN-0004Tz-SH; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:43:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQCjz-0002w4-DX for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:39:31 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26607 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQCjx-0006Zm-IL for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:39:32 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA5MdMJ2043220; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:39:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:39:21 -0700 To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "IETF TOOLS" References: <41891438.3080809@levkowetz.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41891438.3080809@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Tools-team] genarea slides: ID SUbmission draft X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > * Alex: Assist with slide text about the submission tool for > the genarea slides Henrik, Here are some bullets for your slides. Please feel free to edit as needed and let me know if you need anything else. * ID Submission Toolset http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt - Goals - Features - Implementation stages - Status and plans * Goals - painless submission of most drafts (at least as easy is it is today) - fast draft posting (seconds, not days) - negligible Secretariat involvement/overhead - reliability (limiting effects of "bad" submissions and attacks) - collecting meta-information for other tools and humans * Features - automated checking of many idnits - automated metadata extraction - web interface (idnits checked before posting) - email interface (idnits warnings sent back after posting) - verification of access to submitter email (weak, but better than what we have now) - accepting XML sources and other legal formats - manual (via Secretariat) posting mode as a last resort * Implementation stages - Trial: plain text format, core functions (45 days) (frees Secretariat from handling at least 70% of the drafts) - Production: XML and plain text formats (100 days) (Secretariat handles only unusual drafts; other tools use metadata) - Enhancements: other formats, bells and whistles (oo) * Status and plans - IETF call for comments until November 24th (please review!) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt - Publish as an Informational(?) RFC after addressing review comments - Implement the Trial stage - Launch HTH, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 5 18:46:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA01879; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQDn7-0007tX-Mg; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:46:49 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQDj5-00062l-0E; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:42:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQDYO-000444-59 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:31:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00958 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQDYO-0007aG-F7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:31:37 -0500 Received: by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E86AB383B3; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:31:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75FA38043; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:31:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C733538002; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:31:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CQDXr-0002Eh-EJ; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:31:03 +0100 Message-ID: <418C0D34.6030509@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:31:00 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 Subject: Re: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? References: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41DA@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41DA@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote: > I'd be interested in working on the "WG Meeting scheduler" tool. > > Donald Hello Donald, Sounds good! :-) (Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been travelling...) We'll round up all the new suspects after Washington, and sit down and look at new tasks. Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 6 23:04:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01746; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQeHy-0005vE-NT; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:04:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQeDX-0008E7-Av; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:59:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQeBX-00083B-4k for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:57:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01277 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate6.mot.com ([144.189.100.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQeBl-0005n0-S9 for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:58:03 -0500 Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate6.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate6) with ESMTP id iA73vfZp015835 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:57:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com (ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com [10.14.33.5]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id iA73t6NM030779 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:55:06 -0600 Received: by ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:57:39 -0500 Message-ID: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41F7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> From: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" Subject: RE: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:57:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 OK. I will, by the way, be at the Washington meeting. And the following week I will be at the IEEE 802 meeting in San Antonio but will be in email contact. Thanks, Donald -----Original Message----- From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:31 PM To: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 Cc: IETF TOOLS Subject: Re: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote: > I'd be interested in working on the "WG Meeting scheduler" tool. > > Donald Hello Donald, Sounds good! :-) (Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been travelling...) We'll round up all the new suspects after Washington, and sit down and look at new tasks. Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 6 23:08:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA02349; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQeMe-00062W-TJ; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:09:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQeKP-0000vI-2b; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:06:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQeIR-0000e8-AU for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:04:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01875 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQeIh-0005w2-AO for tools-team@ietf.org; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:05:11 -0500 Received: by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B32D037FC3; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:04:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av3-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B3B37F4B; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:04:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C7A37E42; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:04:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CQeHs-00071l-B8; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:04:20 +0100 Message-ID: <418D9EC3.1060907@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:04:19 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Eastlake Subject: Re: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? References: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41F7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF238105CD41F7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, then I'll see if I can catch you in the halls in Washington and chat a little bit. Henrik Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote: > OK. I will, by the way, be at the Washington meeting. And the following week I will be at the IEEE 802 meeting in San Antonio but will be in email contact. > > Thanks, > Donald > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:31 PM > To: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 > Cc: IETF TOOLS > Subject: Re: [Tools-team] RE: New TOOLS Team Members? > > Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote: > >>I'd be interested in working on the "WG Meeting scheduler" tool. >> >>Donald > > > Hello Donald, > > Sounds good! :-) > > (Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been travelling...) > > We'll round up all the new suspects after Washington, and sit > down and look at new tasks. > > Regards, > > Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 7 15:38:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22660; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQtoC-0003Km-9Z; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:38:45 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQtg1-0006mr-QC; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:30:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQtZC-0003VK-Tv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:23:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21145 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cs.columbia.edu ([128.59.16.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQtZb-0002wz-K1 for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:23:39 -0500 Received: from razor.cs.columbia.edu (IDENT:LPfRZ2ruL1uKy4H0CbuQAbhiX3HVH+RB@razor.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.8]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7KNBRX000667 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (IDENT:iO6J2OqK5wFHam/hBEjTN7YecGInentu@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by razor.cs.columbia.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7KNBXH022686 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:23:11 -0500 Message-ID: <418E842E.4030208@cs.columbia.edu> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:23:10 -0500 From: Henning Schulzrinne User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-team@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.11.6.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Comment on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A minor comment: The draft repeatedly refers to CGI, a very specific technology for active web pages. However, most reasonable modern implementations will use something other than CGI, such as PHP, ASP, Java servlets and the like. None of these are accurately described as CGI. You are also making an implicit assumption, it seems, that might be worth calling out, regarding user authentication. You seem to assume that there is no user authentication for the poster, although your security consideration section talks about some email reading verification. From a quick read, I don't see this described anywhere. I think you will need user accounts in any event for working group approvals. In any event, I think it would be helpful to describe explicitly whether you're looking at a stateless model (where anybody can submit the draft, with no authentication) or a stateful model (where users have accounts, only certain users can update a draft, etc.). I think both will work for submission, unless you worry about impostors. My personal experience after thousands of papers automatically submitted (see edas.info): email submission to robots sucks. It works well enough for 90+% of the cases, but requires manual intervention for the rest. Just to name a few problems: mailers might automatically attach signature bodies, so the recipient program has to be smart enough to know which body part is the draft and which is a vCard and whether there might be several different drafts or draft formats attached. It has to deal with encrypted or signed mails, gzip'ed and compressed body parts. Not all mailers use Content-type correctly. You'll get TNEF attachments courtesy of Outlook or people who don't understand the difference between cut-and-paste and attach. You'll get "automated" friendly conversion of TXT into HTML. I tried programming all the cases for my conference tool and in the end, just gave up - it would invariably fail for somebody just before the submission deadline. Lots of people wanted email submission a few years ago, but I haven't heard anybody complaining about the removal so far. Henning _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 8 12:37:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05145; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRDTK-00084c-He; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:38:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRDFx-0006DF-3K; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:24:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRCu4-0007ex-6x for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:02:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01552 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRCud-0007AJ-Uh for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:02:40 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iA8H1mJ2031335; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:01:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:01:48 -0700 To: "Henning Schulzrinne" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Comment on draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06 References: <418E842E.4030208@cs.columbia.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <418E842E.4030208@cs.columbia.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 2004/11/07 (MST), wrote: > A minor comment: The draft repeatedly refers to CGI, a very specific > technology for active web pages. However, most reasonable modern > implementations will use something other than CGI, such as PHP, ASP, > Java servlets and the like. None of these are accurately described as > CGI. IMO, CGI is a reasonable modern technology to implement the web interface of the ID submission Toolset. Said that, I think the choice of low-level technology should be left to the implementors. I hope that the implementor can pick the right technology given all the factors (e.g, code reuse between web and email interfaces). I found two references to CGI in the draft. I agree that the draft is not clear whether CGI is mandated. It is not. Will fix. > You are also making an implicit assumption, it seems, that might be > worth calling out, regarding user authentication. You seem to assume > that there is no user authentication for the poster, although your > security consideration section talks about some email reading > verification. From a quick read, I don't see this described anywhere. If a given submitter email address belongs to a lawful submitter (i.e., belongs to one of the lawful categories below), the Toolset performs submitter authentication during a Post Now action (R19/a). Otherwise, an error is reported (R118/a). and External meta-data contains submitter email address. As a part of the validation procedure, the Post Now action authorizes the submitter. The initial action implementation checks that the submitter has access to email sent to that address (R38/a). Eventually, the Toolset should accept client certificates signed by IETF, PGP-signed email, and/or other forms of client-side authentication to eliminate the weak and annoying email access check (R110/c). If submitter authentication fails, the submission eventually and silently times out (R39/a). Do you think more requirements need to be added? If yes, what requirements? > I think you will need user accounts in any event for working group > approvals. Specifics of the WG approval mechanism is out of this draft scope. I agree that, eventually, IETF should have optional accounts for those who want to use automated means of authentication. I am worried that mentioning anything like this in the ID submission draft will delay draft approval because many IETFers think that user accounts are evil. Hopefully, when several deployed tools can benefit from decent user authentication, we can document and recommend deployment of a simple but general/comprehensive IETF authentication framework. > In any event, I think it would be helpful to describe explicitly whether > you're looking at a stateless model (where anybody can submit the draft, > with no authentication) or a stateful model (where users have accounts, > only certain users can update a draft, etc.). I think both will work for > submission, unless you worry about impostors. It is something in-between. There is state, but not explicit accounts. > My personal experience after thousands of papers automatically submitted > (see edas.info): email submission to robots sucks. [good justification snipped] Personally, I agree. Unfortunately, too many IETFers demand email interface because they want to "submit" drafts while not connected to the Internet. The current consensus is that the draft may not get approval if it lacks email interface. However, it might be worth [re]considering email interface priority. Given implementation and maintenance costs, can we move email interface to the Enhancements stage? Can the Toolset handle 90% of submissions without email interface? Thanks a lot for your comments! Please let me know if any improvements other than making CGI non-normative are needed. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 8 14:40:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19100; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRFOM-00038q-9t; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:41:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRF2l-0007jf-M2; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:19:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CREq3-0003cu-Io for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:06:03 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15062 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CREqc-00022K-Tq for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:06:40 -0500 Received: by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 896123801C; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:05:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7867937E91; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:05:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AC237E43; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:05:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CREpS-0000q1-SQ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:05:27 +0100 Message-ID: <418FC374.5030102@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:05:24 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] genarea slides: ID SUbmission draft References: <41891438.3080809@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Alex, This was very good. I've put together slides for this now, and expect to do the rest of them this evening, and put up pdf versions of the slides then, if anybody wants to comment. Henrik Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Wed, 2004/11/03 (MST), wrote: > >> * Alex: Assist with slide text about the submission tool for >> the genarea slides > > > Henrik, > > Here are some bullets for your slides. Please feel free to edit as > needed and let me know if you need anything else. > > * ID Submission Toolset > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt > > - Goals > - Features > - Implementation stages > - Status and plans > > * Goals > - painless submission of most drafts > (at least as easy is it is today) > - fast draft posting > (seconds, not days) > - negligible Secretariat involvement/overhead > - reliability > (limiting effects of "bad" submissions and attacks) > - collecting meta-information for other tools and humans > > * Features > - automated checking of many idnits > - automated metadata extraction > - web interface (idnits checked before posting) > - email interface (idnits warnings sent back after posting) > - verification of access to submitter email > (weak, but better than what we have now) > - accepting XML sources and other legal formats > - manual (via Secretariat) posting mode as a last resort > > * Implementation stages > - Trial: plain text format, core functions (45 days) > (frees Secretariat from handling at least 70% of the drafts) > - Production: XML and plain text formats (100 days) > (Secretariat handles only unusual drafts; other tools use metadata) > - Enhancements: other formats, bells and whistles (oo) > > * Status and plans > - IETF call for comments until November 24th (please review!) > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-06.txt > > - Publish as an Informational(?) RFC after addressing review comments > - Implement the Trial stage > - Launch > > > HTH, > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 09:40:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03567; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUR18-0002Rr-Vt; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:42:43 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUQxG-0004VD-WF; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:38:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUQru-0003bJ-ID for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:33:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03000 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUQuK-0002I5-VT for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:35:41 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 618FD3810C; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:32:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6A1380D3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:32:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3516D37E53 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:32:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUQrN-0001mo-UX for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:32:38 +0100 Message-ID: <419B6105.5040704@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:32:37 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 17 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. New team member: Donald Eastlake III 3. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 4. IETF meeting slides: http://tools.ietf.org/slides/61/ietf-61-tools-team.pdf 5. Status of I-D submission tool draft Comments from the genarea meeting indicated no major comments on the current draft - most comments were on making a policy change to requiring xml to be submitted. Call for comments expires on Nov 24 (in one week). Few comments so far. Next draft will be submitted for publication as informal RFC. Last chance to read through and fix things. 7. Next work items The current priority list has been posted for comments to the wgchairs list. To the next meeting, I'd like to settle this as firm for now, with a possible revision to be done after the next IETF. 7. Charter update I'd like to propose a charter update on the following points: 1. Add new milestones in accordance with the finalised priority list of work items. 2. Add a clause indicating that the tools team may run an ietf-owned server which hosts tools we set up and/or maintain ourselves, as a complement to secretariat-run servers. 8. Action item review. * Alex: Assist with slide text about the submission tool for the genarea slides Done * Henrik: Put together the slides, combining Alex' text with general info, call for new team members, and priority list info. Done 9. Any other business. 10. Action items for next week: 11. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 24 Nov, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 17 13:01:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25368; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUUAD-0007qr-Gx; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUU0Q-00055q-P7; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:54:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUTyW-0004aO-NH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:52:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24616 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUU0v-0007cF-LI for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:54:45 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9ED2038252; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:51:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A30B38095 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:51:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CFC37E66 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:51:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUTxx-0006OE-8B for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:51:37 +0100 Message-ID: <419B8FA8.1010603@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:51:36 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 17 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87a3f533bb300b99e2a18357f3c1563d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing Nothing 2. New team member: Donald Eastlake III 3. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 4. IETF meeting slides: http://tools.ietf.org/slides/61/ietf-61-tools-team.pdf 5. Status of I-D submission tool draft Comments from the genarea meeting indicated no major comments on the current draft - most comments were on making a policy change to requiring xml to be submitted. Call for comments expires on Nov 24 (in one week). Few comments so far. Next draft will be submitted for publication as informal RFC. Last chance to read through and fix things. 6. Next work items The current priority list has been posted for comments to the wgchairs list. To the next meeting, I'd like to settle this as firm for now, with a possible revision to be done after the next IETF. Alex: Item 5, Would like to work on draft status pages, but can work on other stuff too. Also item 2, but would like not to be lead on that. Stas: Item 7, Notification service, merged with 11, RSS and Atom feeds Larry: Item 3, Common components, requirements Maybe re-arrange priority a bit, working on meta-data in parallel with some other items (like those mentioned above) Work on meta-data on the wiki page to start with, and update according to experience with other items. 7. Charter update I'd like to propose a charter update on the following points: 1. Add new milestones in accordance with the finalised priority list of work items. 2. Add a clause indicating that the tools team may run an ietf-owned server which hosts tools we set up and/or maintain ourselves, as a complement to secretariat-run servers. Alex: Maybe we're mixing to many issues here. Setting up a server is easy, maintaining it is heavy. There's also a question of ownership of tools - this is separate from ownership of the server. Tools must be open source. Alex: Deploying tools which don't require support seems to make sense, while deploying tools which require support from the team is out of scope. Larry: We could write down what we think the operational requirements are for such a server, rather than ourself getting into support of it, and then it's up to the management to get the needed resources. HW + BW + support. Let's identify what it takes to run this as a service. We should not get into the issue of prejudicing whether fortec could win a bid or not - we should just specify the requirements for a service like this. Maybe Bernard could help with developing a Service Level Agreement. 8. Action item review. * Alex: Assist with slide text about the submission tool for the genarea slides Done * Henrik: Put together the slides, combining Alex' text with general info, call for new team members, and priority list info. Done 9. Any other business. None 10. Action items for next week: * All: Participate in the Work item / priority discussion * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements * Alex: Start looking at Draft Status Page Requirements * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements * Henrik: Put together new charter proposal * Larry: Have a nice vacation :-) 11. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 24 Nov, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 17:46:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28015; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:46:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUv5S-0001P7-5w; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:49:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUv0s-0002fY-JB; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:44:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUuo8-0007Pn-Eh for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:31:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26328 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUuqp-00011O-9N for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:34:04 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0911A7B05 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAIMUhB00435; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:30:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:30:40 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f A couple of people have tried my xxe plugin and found that it wouldn't open files that xml2rfc processed just fine - in these cases it's that xml2rfc doesn't validate the XML and has a lenient parser. This raises a problem, in that we don't really want to have invalid XML in the repository (right?) but we also don't want people to have the "but it works fine on my system, it only barfs when I upload it!" problem. Any thoughts? Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 18:30:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03419; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUvmV-0002S6-Um; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:33:41 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUvZ0-0002mM-Ie; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:19:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUvQj-0005Fw-RK for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:11:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00813 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUvTR-0001yV-5X for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:13:58 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAINB3J2047263; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAINB3Bi047262; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:03 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> Message-ID: <20041118160312.K39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Bill Fenner wrote: > A couple of people have tried my xxe plugin and found that it wouldn't > open files that xml2rfc processed just fine - in these cases it's that > xml2rfc doesn't validate the XML and has a lenient parser. > > This raises a problem, in that we don't really want to have invalid > XML in the repository (right?) Correct. > but we also don't want people to have the "but it works fine on my > system, it only barfs when I upload it!" problem. I am not sure what it would take to (a) convince Marshall that xml2rfc support of XML needs to be fixed and (b) fix it. Marshall has stated that the XML parser inside the xml2rfc Tcl script is old/crufty; he was understandibly reluctant to change it. I do not know whether better parsers exist for Tcl. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 18:35:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03751; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUvqo-0002Xp-HK; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:38:07 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUvl1-0006tI-Ts; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:32:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUva7-0003CM-G3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02463 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUvcp-0002G1-ID for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:23:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79DE1CD8BE for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25797-09 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB7C1CD5FC for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:49 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 18 Nov 2004 18:21:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> Message-ID: <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Bill Fenner writes: > This raises a problem, in that we don't really want to have invalid > XML in the repository (right?) but we also don't want people to have > the "but it works fine on my system, it only barfs when I upload > it!" problem. If the server uses the same software that most people would use for processing XML, maybe the problem would not be very severe? _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:24:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08510; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwcm-0003rM-Km; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:27:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwX4-0002vJ-LM; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:46 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwHi-0007XF-99 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:05:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06951 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwKQ-0003Rm-Ox for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:08:43 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ05qJ2050097; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:05:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAJ05q6E050096; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:05:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:05:52 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Bill Fenner writes: > >> This raises a problem, in that we don't really want to have invalid >> XML in the repository (right?) but we also don't want people to have >> the "but it works fine on my system, it only barfs when I upload >> it!" problem. > > If the server uses the same software that most people would use for > processing XML, maybe the problem would not be very severe? Let me try to explain: xml2rfc software does not catch some XML bugs. Other tools that will be written to process posted XML sources (for reasons other than draft formatting) would have problem dealing with posted XML sources submitted by authors that use nothing but xml2rfc. In short, like Bill said, we should not post invalid XML. If we use an XML validator to reject invalid XML sources when posting drafts (after preprocessing them to resolve include PIs), some (many?) authors would have a difficult time fixing their XML sources because they do not use anything but xml2rfc, and xml2rfc does not complain. Does this clarify? Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:33:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09446; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwl1-000452-01; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:36:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwa5-0004Qm-Am; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:24:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwWa-0002re-6t for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08284 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwZI-0003mk-1Q for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:24:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97CA1CD8BE for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00334-01 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC7F1CD8A4 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:21:13 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 18 Nov 2004 19:21:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Alex Rousskov writes: > Let me try to explain: xml2rfc software does not catch some XML bugs. I believe I understand that. Why not just run xml2rfc, the same software as most authors would be using to deal with XML, on the server and accept any XML that xml2rfc likes, whether another validator likes it or not? What would be the danger in admitting a syntax error that xml2rfc happily ignores? _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:44:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10584; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwvR-0004L9-8N; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:46:57 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwmu-0000Xf-A8; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:38:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwk6-0008G3-G4 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09676 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwmo-00048n-3R for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:38:03 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ0ZBJ2051766; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:35:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAJ0ZBbk051765; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:35:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:35:11 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Alex Rousskov writes: > >> Let me try to explain: xml2rfc software does not catch some XML bugs. > > I believe I understand that. Why not just run xml2rfc, the same > software as most authors would be using to deal with XML, on the > server and accept any XML that xml2rfc likes, whether another > validator likes it or not? What would be the danger in admitting a > syntax error that xml2rfc happily ignores? Because there will be other tools trying to parse posted XML and they cannot ignore broken XML. In other words, while xml2rfc might be the only "producer" of XML, there will be many more consumers. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:44:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10615; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwve-0004LX-F5; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:47:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwmv-0000Xk-IT; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:38:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwkS-0008N7-UY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09701 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwnA-00048b-ML for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:38:25 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FE61974C2 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAJ0Z3G02239; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411190035.iAJ0Z3G02239@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:01 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 >If the server uses the same software that most people would use for >processing XML, maybe the problem would not be very severe? I'm concerned about the people who use vi or emacs for processing XML, generate something that xml2rfc is capable of rendering but is not actually XML, and then get their draft submission rejected. (Aaron from the RFC-Editor found that one out of the 3 files he tried was malformed; Pekka Savola emailed me and said that he always just puts a bare "&" in the text when he wants an "&" so presumably any of his drafts that contains an "&" are malformed.) Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 20:37:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14983; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUxkl-0005SG-BX; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:39:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUxaC-0004wO-2r; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:29:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUxXr-0004AT-Gl for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:26:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA13864 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUxaZ-0005B6-9h for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:29:28 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:25:47 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3.sea.adobe.com [153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ1WVTG007427; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ1QV0v024332; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-130-169.corp.adobe.com [153.32.130.169]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7E0070YK07H7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:26:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:26:31 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <200411190035.iAJ0Z3G02239@windsor.research.att.com> To: "'Bill Fenner'" , tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7E0070ZK07H7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTN0Omkxny8y6j6TeiDRe+81WwxdgABXL+g X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I'm concerned about the people who use vi or emacs for processing > XML, generate something that xml2rfc is capable of rendering but > is not actually XML, and then get their draft submission rejected. I'm not. Geez, we have standards for a purpose. The posted Internet Drafts in XML actually need to be interoperable with XML processing tools -- beyond formatting by xml2rfc -- if we're going to get any benefit out of them being posted in XML. I mean, "XML" isn't just some buzz-word, there is actually a standard. And, interoperability is defined by the standard, and not what one particular popular tool happens to evaluate. And I have to give this rant to people who actually are supposed to be familiar with "standards" and why anyone gives a hoot about what they say. Why don't we just skip the IETF and tell people to reverse-engineer whatever it is that Cxxxx or Mxxxxxx ship? > (Aaron from the RFC-Editor found that one out of the 3 files he > tried was malformed; Pekka Savola emailed me and said that he > always just puts a bare "&" in the text when he wants an "&" so > presumably any of his drafts that contains an "&" are malformed.) So he's wrong and he can put his lazy fingers into gear and type & when his first submitted XML internet draft gets rejected. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 21:06:33 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17210; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUyDF-00062Z-Ny; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:09:25 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUy8E-0003wG-3x; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:04:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUy7s-0003eM-Rv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:03:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17099 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUyAZ-000601-JP for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:06:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484D11CD562 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10113-01 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FB1CD548 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:38:55 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 18 Nov 2004 20:39:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Alex Rousskov writes: > Because there will be other tools trying to parse posted XML and > they cannot ignore broken XML. In other words, while xml2rfc might > be the only "producer" of XML, there will be many more consumers. I thought xml2rfc was a consumer of XML customarily (and a producer of RFC-formatted plain text). So, an automated extraction of something like an author name from XML might barf. So what? XML isn't required, so having *some* form of source code (indeed, the only existing form of source code for the I-D) is clearly better than none. If the tool starts complaining about optional XML, I would bet most people would simply not upload it. I must be missing something. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 21:56:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21427; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUyzi-0007Eq-Lm; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:59:33 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUyms-0005lz-Ah; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:46:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUyjw-0004Lu-MW for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:43:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20282 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUymf-0006tF-OE for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:46:03 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2869EA7B05; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAJ2gdO03755; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:42:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: LMM@acm.org Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:42:36 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Larry, I'm sorry that you read "I think we should pander to those who don't write valid XML". What I meant was that people have their expectations set by the tools that they use - for example, at the last meeting, the secretariat rejected some I-D submissions that didn't use the boilerplate that's in 1id-guidelines.txt, which Henrik's "idnits" tool doesn't check for. The user's expectation was, "I used this tool to check for problems, and it didn't have any, so why did it get rejected?" I expect to see the same expectations set when the XML I-D submission tool gets deployed - "the draft formatted when I ran xml2rfc, so why did the web site reject it?". Working towards setting expectations (and in particular this expectation, since we know that it's likely to actually happen) should be part of our charter - otherwise we're setting ourselves up for failure. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 22:08:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22332; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUzAn-0007VJ-8s; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:10:57 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz4G-0002RR-Rz; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:04:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz0g-00018B-5d for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:00:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21833 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUz3P-0007M0-9R for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:03:20 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ30RJ2060055; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:00:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAJ30Rf3060054; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:00:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:00:27 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, stanislav shalunov wrote: > Alex Rousskov writes: > >> Because there will be other tools trying to parse posted XML and >> they cannot ignore broken XML. In other words, while xml2rfc might >> be the only "producer" of XML, there will be many more consumers. > > I thought xml2rfc was a consumer of XML customarily (and a producer of > RFC-formatted plain text). Yes, that's why I surrounded "producer" in quotes. By accepting invalid XML, xml2rfc effectively produces invalid XML as far as IETF infrastructure is concerned. It is the author who is the actual producer here, of course, but most authors do not care about XML validity (as long as xml2rfc works). The tools do. > So, an automated extraction of something like an author name from > XML might barf. So what? XML isn't required, so having *some* form > of source code (indeed, the only existing form of source code for > the I-D) is clearly better than none. I think it would be a serious design mistake to accept invalid XML as a significant part of IETF infrastructure. I do not think that broken XML is better than none. If you do not see that as a problem, I do not think I can convince you otherwise (and you would not be alone, since many IETFers believe in "garbage in, goodness out" approach to interoperability). > If the tool starts complaining about optional XML, I would bet most > people would simply not upload it. Complaining about and rejecting invalid XML would be much better than silently accepting it. I will add the corresponding note to the ID Submission draft. I do not think it explicitly mentions XML validity, and it should. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 22:11:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22529; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUzDr-0007YP-98; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:14:07 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz7z-0003HY-NF; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:08:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz4C-0002MB-Hx for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:04:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22097 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUz6w-0007QS-DX for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:06:58 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ345J2060339; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:04:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAJ345c9060338; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:04:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:04:05 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Bill Fenner Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> Message-ID: <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Bill Fenner wrote: > I expect to see the same expectations set when the XML I-D > submission tool gets deployed - "the draft formatted when I ran > xml2rfc, so why did the web site reject it?". Working towards > setting expectations (and in particular this expectation, since we > know that it's likely to actually happen) should be part of our > charter - otherwise we're setting ourselves up for failure. I agree. IMO, we should discuss this issue with Marshall (and xml2rfc community) and go from there. Any other suggestions? Do we at least have rough consensus that invalid XML should not be accepted long-term? Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 22:13:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22652; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUzFl-0007al-SN; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:16:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz9x-0003jE-3O; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:10:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUz78-00035q-Bb for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:07:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22308 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUz9r-0007UK-AH for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:10:00 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ377J2060625; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:07:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAJ376Gc060624; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:07:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:07:06 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-Reply-To: <200411190035.iAJ0Z3G02239@windsor.research.att.com> Message-ID: <20041118200600.H39909@measurement-factory.com> References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411190035.iAJ0Z3G02239@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Bill Fenner wrote: > I'm concerned about the people who use vi or emacs for processing > XML, generate something that xml2rfc is capable of rendering but is > not actually XML, and then get their draft submission rejected. I am even more concerned that ID Submission tool implementation will not check for XML validity and accept invalid XML, forcing all other tools to deal with it. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 23:24:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA28445; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV0Mg-0000fc-BD; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:27:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV0Iy-0003IM-45; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:23:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV0Gn-0002gt-EV for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:21:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA28257 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV0JY-0000bg-2h for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:24:04 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E93D1974C2; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAJ4Kfp04945; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:20:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411190420.iAJ4Kfp04945@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: rousskov@measurement-factory.com Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:20:40 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 >Do we at least have rough consensus that invalid XML should not be >accepted long-term? I'd bet we have rough consensus that invalid XML should not be accepted, ever. I just think that we should have a plan for dealing with the user expectations. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 00:06:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02429; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV11c-0001j3-7h; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:09:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV0vi-0006SI-BM; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:03:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV0v4-0006CV-Gt for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02207 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV0xo-0001fL-MX for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:05:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352F81CD61C for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31540-03 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95501CD617 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:02:45 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 00:03:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> Message-ID: <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Alex Rousskov writes: > many IETFers believe in "garbage in, goodness out" approach to > interoperability). I'm not sure this is a case of GIGO, whatever the second G stands for. (In any case, personally I have reservations even about the BLIWYASIWYS motto [be lenient...].) > Complaining about and rejecting invalid XML would be much better > than silently accepting it. Are you saying that having imperfect XML that still works with xml2rfc would have negative utility? Or is ``silently'' the operative word? I would have no problem with doing a real XML validation and issuing warnings, but turning the warnings into fatal errors would simply train people not to submit XML to the excessively fussy -- for no explained reason -- tool. Is having the source desirable or not? If it were a C program source, would you prefer to only have the executable without the source if the source fails lint but compiles without problems? > I will add the corresponding note to the ID Submission draft. I do > not think it explicitly mentions XML validity, and it should. It should check PDF validity then, as well. (I think both are about equally silly.) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me I am right? Please wait until I am wrong." -- John von Neumann, on being phoned at 10 a.m. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 00:19:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03616; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV1E5-00020h-1z; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:22:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV15X-0000cG-6L; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:13:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV13m-0008If-UD for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02804 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV16X-0001ob-Sa for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:14:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F9E1CD62D for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32431-09 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596DF1CD620 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:49 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I7E0070ZK07H7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 00:12:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0I7E0070ZK07H7@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <86wtwibexd.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Larry Masinter writes: > I mean, "XML" isn't just some buzz-word, there is actually a standard. Many things have standards and deviations from standards. I don't delete from my system's /usr/src all C source code that is not real C99. I'd prefer it to be perfect, sure, but even imperfect source code is better than none. The right question isn't whether invalid XML is bad (it clearly is), but what would a user -- who is not required to submit XML -- do if the tool is fussy about something in his XML. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed with 0.06479891g of NaCl. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 02:24:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA28139; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV3AY-0004Yc-TY; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:26:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV335-0006PE-IA; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:19:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV31q-0005la-JG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:17:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26377 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV34S-0004Pl-KQ for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:20:51 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:16:38 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3.sea.adobe.com [153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ7NeTG023852 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJ7He0v018667 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.18]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7F00CDB09GSR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:17:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:17:40 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7F00CDC09GSR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTN5G7lIVaHZVUTSg6RRh/yMYHPGwAInx4w X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Marshall produced xml2rfc to solve a particular problem: let people write documents in XML and then produce the actual documents that people read: ASCII, nroff, and HTML. We're trying to solve a slightly different problem, so we shouldn't expect an exact match. I see no reason to expect xml2rfc to do validation. Personally, I prefer Julian Reschke's .xslt transformation to turn the .xml into nice-looking HTML, but I imagine most xslt tools require valid XML. I imagine we could offer other transformation tools beyond Marshall's if they were interesting and valuable. We could set expectations by telling people other ways to validate their XML. It's not a complex DTD. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 04:25:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08557; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV53o-0007HC-HG; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:28:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV4tU-00088z-4w; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:17:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CV4rd-0007iB-DV for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:15:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07935 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CV4uQ-00076H-Oy for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 04:18:27 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 1637837F37; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:15:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EC437E69; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:15:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42A737E4F; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:15:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CV4r6-0001JB-GE; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:15:00 +0100 Message-ID: <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:14:59 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> In-Reply-To: <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-19 4:04 am Alex Rousskov said the following: > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Bill Fenner wrote: > >> I expect to see the same expectations set when the XML I-D >> submission tool gets deployed - "the draft formatted when I ran >> xml2rfc, so why did the web site reject it?". Working towards >> setting expectations (and in particular this expectation, since we >> know that it's likely to actually happen) should be part of our >> charter - otherwise we're setting ourselves up for failure. > > I agree. IMO, we should discuss this issue with Marshall (and xml2rfc > community) and go from there. Any other suggestions? Do we at least > have rough consensus that invalid XML should not be accepted > long-term? I think that: * Invalid XML should not be in the archives, long-term * Short-term, rejecting sources which xml2rfc accepts is probably counter-productive * We should talk to Marshall about the problem - any long- term resolution will have to be based on the tools people use giving them proper feedback, resulting in well-formed XML * There may be an interim solution (haven't verified this) in running the HTML tidy program on the XML source to clean up the kind of errors which xml2rfc accepts - or maybe a custom script could do it. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 11:40:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19218; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVBqr-0000Q0-S2; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:43:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVBbj-0007jr-RS; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:27:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVBWo-0006Rj-Df for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:22:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17348 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob3.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.213] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVBZT-0008Nr-9u for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:25:28 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob3.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:21:16 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJGHMQY002051 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJGMDJu011004 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.18]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7F00BOPPH27R@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:22:14 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7F00BOQPH27R@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTOGa3iQ52ReBOySVqFUXykJt6QigAOYY0w X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Consider the long list of available XML validation tools: http://xml.coverpages.org/check-xml.html (or Google for "XML validation tool", which is how I found this). > * Short-term, rejecting sources which xml2rfc accepts is > probably counter-productive If we're able to give clear diagnostics about why the XML fails some other validation, I don't think that would be counter-productive. We could also point people at XML validation tools and ask them to check their documents before they submit, or we could offer a "checker" tool which would allow authors to check their documents *before* they were ready to send them in. > * We should talk to Marshall about the problem - any long- > term resolution will have to be based on the tools people > use giving them proper feedback, resulting in well-formed > XML I don't think we should rely on Marshall to provide the validation tool. Marshall's tool is fine for what Marshall intended it for. > * There may be an interim solution (haven't verified this) > in running the HTML tidy program on the XML source to clean > up the kind of errors which xml2rfc accepts - or maybe a > custom script could do it. "HTML tidy" only cleans up HTML, not XML. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 12:06:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21649; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVCGK-00015W-NA; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:09:32 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVC6q-0007zE-Ul; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:59:44 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVC5I-0007EG-Jd for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:58:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20914 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVC89-0000qn-Ta for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:01:06 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 36E4137F00; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:57:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2581837ECA; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:57:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E2137E44; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:57:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CVC4j-0001Yy-0U; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:57:33 +0100 Message-ID: <419E25FB.80206@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:57:31 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I7F00BOQPH27R@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I7F00BOQPH27R@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-19 5:22 pm Larry Masinter said the following: > Consider the long list of available XML validation tools: > > http://xml.coverpages.org/check-xml.html > > (or Google for "XML validation tool", which is how I found this). > > >> * Short-term, rejecting sources which xml2rfc accepts is >> probably counter-productive > > If we're able to give clear diagnostics about why the > XML fails some other validation, I don't think that would > be counter-productive. We could also point people at > XML validation tools and ask them to check their documents > before they submit, or we could offer a "checker" tool > which would allow authors to check their documents > *before* they were ready to send them in. This might be a workable road, but I'm not quite happy with it. >> * We should talk to Marshall about the problem - any long- >> term resolution will have to be based on the tools people >> use giving them proper feedback, resulting in well-formed >> XML > > I don't think we should rely on Marshall to provide the > validation tool. Marshall's tool is fine for what Marshall > intended it for. Mmm, the most important point I was trying to make was " - any long- term resolution will have to be based on the tools people use giving them proper feedback, resulting in well-formed XML" >> * There may be an interim solution (haven't verified this) >> in running the HTML tidy program on the XML source to clean >> up the kind of errors which xml2rfc accepts - or maybe a >> custom script could do it. > > "HTML tidy" only cleans up HTML, not XML. Oh? Are you quite sure? I've used it to validate and massage XML... Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:09:23 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27621; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDFA-0002i1-7E; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:12:25 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDBF-0002f7-OK; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:08:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVD3l-0000Nz-GO for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:00:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26973 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVD6d-0002Vb-FM for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:03:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788DC1CD69C for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26382-08 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312441CD68D for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:00:35 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 13:01:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Henrik Levkowetz writes: > * Invalid XML should not be in the archives, long-term > > * Short-term, rejecting sources which xml2rfc accepts is > probably counter-productive > > * We should talk to Marshall about the problem - any long- term > resolution will have to be based on the tools people use giving them > proper feedback, resulting in well-formed XML This matches my thinking. > * There may be an interim solution (haven't verified this) > in running the HTML tidy program on the XML source to clean > up the kind of errors which xml2rfc accepts - or maybe a > custom script could do it. A tool for fixing up XML would be nice. I'm not sure, though, that it needs to run on IETF I-D submission page. Having it as part of xml2rfc (which could then be more strict about what it accepts) would seem like a better option. That way, the IETF would not become responsible for maintaining a tool that people will invariably find bugs in (the bugs could be not fixing something that needs to be fixed, fixing it wrongly, or ``fixing'' something that's perfectly fine already). -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Just my 0.086g of Ag. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:25:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29187; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDV7-00036M-Q6; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:28:54 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDI3-0004aq-LV; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDF9-0003oo-0a for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:12:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28010 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDI1-0002mq-2L for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:21 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJICKJ2097754; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:12:19 -0700 To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 2004/11/18 (MST), wrote: > Is having the source desirable or not? If it were a C program source, > would you prefer to only have the executable without the source if the > source fails lint but compiles without problems? I believe you are missing my point. You keep thinking of invalid XML sources as equivalent to C sources that produce compiler warnings. They are not for two reasons: (a) invalid XML sources will prevent many (most?) XML tools from extracting _any_ data from them -- many XML parsers used by many tools simply fail on invalid XML, by design (C sources with warnings do not prevent compilers from producing machine code) (b) XML sources are used for more than producing draft formats (C sources are usually not used for anything other than compilation of executables) In other words, for most practical purposes, invalid XML is equivalent to a proprietary, unpublished format. Or, if you insist, a broken C code that only "works" with one compiler. >> I will add the corresponding note to the ID Submission draft. I do >> not think it explicitly mentions XML validity, and it should. > > It should check PDF validity then, as well. (I think both are about > equally silly.) A PDF draft is an IETF loophole, exception to accept complex drawings. IMO, long term, PDF drafts should either be validated or banned (in favor of better formats that render complex drawings). Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:31:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29738; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDaC-0003EU-Vd; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:34:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDSL-0006xS-Pa; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:26:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDIH-0004bo-Lo for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28232 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDL8-0002qp-Gq for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:18:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA0C1CD897 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28945-09 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C461CD6B1 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:15:34 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 13:16:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: <86u0rlaen3.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 4 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Addendum: Just to be clear, I would favor rejecting XML failing validation if XML were a required format for I-D submission or the only format. (I do not believe that being fussy about optional formats is productive.) _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:31:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29759; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDaG-0003Eg-48; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:34:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDSP-00072b-VT; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:26:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDLF-00057d-8h for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:18:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28467 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDO7-0002vE-Bg for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:21:39 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJIIbJ2097945; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:18:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "Larry Masinter" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I7F00BOQPH27R@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <419E25FB.80206@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:18:36 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <419E25FB.80206@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: > Mmm, the most important point I was trying to make was > > " - any long- > term resolution will have to be based on the tools people > use giving them proper feedback, resulting in well-formed > XML" I agree, but have to note that the ID Submission Toolset might have enough power to force folks to use validation tools (or demand built-in validation from Marshall). For example, if IETF sees that XML sources are becoming increasingly useful, we can stop auto-posting drafts without them, essentially forcing most IETFers to use xml2rfc _and_ submit valid XML. Whether and when the Toolset should do that is an open question. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:32:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29903; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDbE-0003H5-Ly; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:35:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDUV-0007XS-PJ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:28:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDOl-0006AQ-FH for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28753 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDRc-0002zs-Ob for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:25:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537E31CD6A9 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30290-01 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C6B1CD6A8 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:22:16 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 13:22:42 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > In other words, for most practical purposes, invalid XML is > equivalent to a proprietary, unpublished format. Or, if you insist, > a broken C code that only "works" with one compiler. Many C compiler warnings mean that another compiler will or could produce executable that works differently from the one compiler the code works with correctly. So the analogy stands. > A PDF draft is an IETF loophole, exception to accept complex > drawings. IMO, long term, PDF drafts should either be validated or > banned (in favor of better formats that render complex drawings). The Tools team is not the place to make these decisions. (In addition, the incentive to accept imperfect XML is also greater than the incentive to accept imperfect PDF: if PDF is rejected and the author chooses not to publish PDF, the author's communication goals will suffer; if XML is rejected and the author chooses not to publish XML, the author does not suffer in any way; only the RFC editor and whoever is interested in source-level diffs would.) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Al your Qaeda are belong to US. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 13:32:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29931; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDbP-0003HX-2D; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:35:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDX6-0008F8-63; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:30:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVDQs-0006nS-NJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:24:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29018 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVDTj-00034F-Ob for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:27:29 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJIORJ2098141; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:24:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:24:26 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: >> * There may be an interim solution (haven't verified this) >> in running the HTML tidy program on the XML source to clean >> up the kind of errors which xml2rfc accepts - or maybe a >> custom script could do it. > > A tool for fixing up XML would be nice. I'm not sure, though, that it > needs to run on IETF I-D submission page. Having it as part of > xml2rfc (which could then be more strict about what it accepts) would > seem like a better option. It would be a better option for IETF, of course. However, Marshall does not work for us and may not want to spend his free time modifying the xml2rfc-embedded XML parser because he had more than enough troubles with it already. Perhaps, if we have strong consensus that xml2rfc must only accept valid XML, IETF can pay Marshall or his helper to do the work? Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 14:21:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04089; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVEMi-0004Nu-Rm; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:24:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVEJU-00036O-1x; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:20:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVE44-0008A7-So for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:05:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02549 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVE6w-0003xg-IO for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:07:59 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3154A7BB2 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAJJ4RL16474; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411191904.iAJJ4RL16474@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411190242.iAJ2gdO03755@windsor.research.att.com> <20041118200138.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <419DB993.7010604@levkowetz.com> <863bz5btwj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:24 -0500 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 BTW, I've found that "xmllint" (which comes with libxml2) tends to give excellent error messages, at least for the cases that I've come across so far: wonk.badxml:2: parser error : StartTag: invalid element name I'm going to barf < less than ^ wonk.badxml:3: parser error : xmlParseEntityRef: no name This also has a bare &. ^ wonk.badxml:3: parser error : Opening and ending tag mismatch: organziation line 3 and organization This also has a bare &. ^ Especially if they're postprocessed to give some more info to an xml-newbie (like the "no name" error could easily turn into "reminder: use & to represent &"), I think this kind of validation would be very useful. xmllint also allows specifying a DTD to validate against. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 16:31:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25608; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVGPA-0002L5-PI; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:34:57 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVFZZ-0003j9-HG; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:41:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVFMQ-0002yO-VU for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:28:03 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11213 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVFPJ-00064B-A7 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:31:02 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJKRxJ2004947; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:28:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:27:59 -0700 To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: > "Alex Rousskov" writes: > >> A PDF draft is an IETF loophole, exception to accept complex >> drawings. IMO, long term, PDF drafts should either be validated or >> banned (in favor of better formats that render complex drawings). > > The Tools team is not the place to make these decisions. True. And I am not suggesting that we pretend we can make any decisions. We can only suggest "designs" or generate "requirements". One of the proposed requirements could be that invalid XML is not accepted. > if XML is rejected and the author chooses not to publish > XML, the author does not suffer in any way; only the RFC editor and > whoever is interested in source-level diffs would. Here we disagree. I think that there will be less long-term suffering overall if there is no invalid XML in draft IETF repositories (compared to a situation where many archived XML sources are invalid). Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 17:03:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29741; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVGtW-0003cA-2q; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:06:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVGjx-0001jz-9q; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:56:25 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVGRL-00014Y-AR for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:37:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26360 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVGUD-0002ZD-1f for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:40:11 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:36:20 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJLWDQY021172 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJLb6Ju012950 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-131-136.corp.adobe.com [153.32.131.136]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7G00LIF41UBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:37:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:37:05 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7G00LIG41UBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTOZTY5YfKEYKBjQyCvHgy68qpXrQAA4KnQ X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > A PDF draft is an IETF loophole, exception to accept complex drawings. > IMO, long term, PDF drafts should either be validated or > banned (in favor of better formats that render complex drawings). There aren't too many .pdf internet drafts. About half of the ones available are also submitted in .ps. I think it would be useful to validate PDF documents, not just that they are valid "PDF", but also whether they meet a stricter profile, e.g., PDF-Archive, http://www.aiim.org/pdf_a. What other formats would IETF allow for complex drawings? SVG and PNG? Perhaps inside 'artwork' tags in xml? As far as XML validation: > It would be a better option for IETF, of course. However, Marshall does > not work for us and may not want to spend his free time modifying the > xml2rfc-embedded XML parser because he had more than enough troubles with > it already. Perhaps, if we have strong consensus that xml2rfc must only > accept valid XML, IETF can pay Marshall or his helper to do the work? Adding a pre-processing validity checker doesn't require any work from Marshall at all. It could be a completely separate step. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 17:04:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29943; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVGv4-0003fK-Sx; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:07:55 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVGpT-0004rt-Hp; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:02:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVGYw-0003aH-Jr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:45:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27325 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob6.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.216] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVGbp-0002rj-E0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:48:02 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob6.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:43:35 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3.sea.adobe.com [153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJLouTG011646 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJLit0x025735 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 (c-131-136.corp.adobe.com [153.32.131.136]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7G001WC4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:44:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:44:55 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTOgQHFUPM4jl78R6uXrl2zVsM87g== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think we (tools team) should be careful to separate 'policy' from 'implementation'. Some statements, do you disagree with any of these: * Which documents are accepted or rejected is a matter of policy. * The internet drafts submission tool MUST check documents and reject those that are not acceptable according to accepted policy. * The internet drafts submission tool SHOULD also check documents for additional potential errors that might cause additional problems, and warn the submitter, even if the document is accepted. * Different formats may have different validity and checking criteria, depending upon available technology for checking. * We should encourage authors to check for all errors, even when we will accept documents with some kinds of errors. * The boundary of which errors cause rejection and which cause warnings should be flexible, so that in the future, it can be possible to change the policy. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 17:32:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02326; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHLm-0004HX-Vp; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:35:32 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVHD9-0006Ba-5J; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:26:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVH9P-0004s3-GP for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:22:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01414 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHCI-00042E-OI for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:25:44 -0500 Received: by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6235C37F03; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:22:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av9-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5230E37E42; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:22:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC8737E4F; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:22:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CVH8r-0000RP-HC; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:22:09 +0100 Message-ID: <419E7212.7020803@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:22:10 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection References: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-19 10:44 pm Larry Masinter said the following: > I think we (tools team) should be careful to separate > 'policy' from 'implementation'. > > Some statements, do you disagree with any of these: > > * Which documents are accepted or rejected is a matter > of policy. > > * The internet drafts submission tool MUST check > documents and reject those that are not acceptable > according to accepted policy. > > * The internet drafts submission tool SHOULD also > check documents for additional potential errors > that might cause additional problems, and warn > the submitter, even if the document is accepted. > > * Different formats may have different validity > and checking criteria, depending upon available > technology for checking. > > * We should encourage authors to check for all errors, > even when we will accept documents with some > kinds of errors. > > * The boundary of which errors cause rejection and > which cause warnings should be flexible, so that > in the future, it can be possible to change the > policy. Excellent analysis, in my eyes. I'd like to have this added to the draft, provided we have consensus. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 17:33:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02437; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHMR-0004J3-DI; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:36:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVHJ9-0000OG-Hc; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:32:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVHFL-000756-Ic for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02126 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHIE-0004CZ-Sv for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:31:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAB31CD55A for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00415-03 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05651CD507 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 17:29:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c "Alex Rousskov" writes: > > if XML is rejected and the author chooses not to publish > > XML, the author does not suffer in any way; only the RFC editor and > > whoever is interested in source-level diffs would. > > Here we disagree. I think that there will be less long-term suffering > overall if there is no invalid XML in draft IETF repositories > (compared to a situation where many archived XML sources are invalid). I think we agree that some source XML files that the authors use will be valid and some will be invalid. We both agree that having valid XML is preferable to not having it. So the question is about the invalid XML files. Would it be fair to say that you frame the choice as follows: invalid XML or valid XML? I see the choice differently: invalid XML (that still works with xml2rfc) or no XML. If we're choosing between valid and invalid XML, the answer is very clear. To me, the answer to the question of invalid XML vs no XML is equally clear (some form of source code is better than none). The users of XML in the repository (including the RFC editor) will not be harmed by the presence of invalid XML, because anyone can always run a validator and simply not use the XML file if it's invalid, but no such local choice is possible when there's no XML. The realistic options are: 1. Leave XML optional and accept any XML that works with xml2rfc; 2. Require XML and only accept valid XML. The choice of the first option can be complemented by working with Marshall and the xml2rfc community to make the set (accepted_by_xml2rfc - valid) smaller or even empty. I don't believe that the Tools team has the mandate to choose the second option. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 17:46:06 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03463; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHYw-0004aV-Ht; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:49:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVHU6-0003ij-MR; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:44:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVHOm-00029B-VC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:38:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02980 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVHRg-0004Sn-Td for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:41:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405251CD685 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01784-06 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F891CD65A for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:38:35 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection References: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 19 Nov 2004 17:39:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <864qjl8nwa.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Larry Masinter writes: > Some statements, do you disagree with any of these: I agree with all of the statements. > * We should encourage authors to check for all errors, ^ ``and warnings''? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Antibiotics comprise 2% of cow feed in U.S. feedlots, by weight. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 18:31:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07919; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIHG-0005T2-6T; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:34:54 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVICq-0007VO-TT; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:30:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIBy-00078q-Hp for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:29:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07781 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIEt-0005Ps-D8 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:32:27 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJNTEJ2014265; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:29:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Larry Masinter" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection References: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:29:14 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: > * Which documents are accepted or rejected is a matter > of policy. Yes. It is also a matter of a particular implementation. Some IETF policies cannot be reliably enforced by a computer. We cannot (and should not try to) design a tool that correctly enforces all IETF policies in scope. IETF should not have an illusion that the tool (or the Secretariat) is a perfect policy enforcer, and IETF should have mechanisms to deal with their mistakes. > * The internet drafts submission tool MUST check > documents and reject those that are not acceptable > according to accepted policy. I agree with the intent, but since it is technically impossible to reliably identify many policy violations, this is not a MUST that any tool can satisfy. The "check" part is satisfiable, but the "reject those that ..." part is not. Perhaps you meant "reject those that failed the checks"? > * The internet drafts submission tool SHOULD also > check documents for additional potential errors > that might cause additional problems, and warn > the submitter, even if the document is accepted. I agree with the intent. The exact wording needs to be polished to include a list of "additional potential errors" or some other way for implementors to comply and testers to test. > * Different formats may have different validity > and checking criteria, depending upon available > technology for checking. Yes, although checking technology should not be the driving force for criteria. Criteria should be based primarily on format properties. The technology will catch up, eventually. > * We should encourage authors to check for all errors, > even when we will accept documents with some > kinds of errors. Encouraging "to check for all errors" is almost useless, IMO. IETF should provide tools (in addition to human review) to detect errors. FWIW, in the ID Submission draft, "acceptable errors" are called "warnings". > * The boundary of which errors cause rejection and > which cause warnings should be flexible, so that > in the future, it can be possible to change the > policy. If by "boundary" you mean the "tool", then I agree. The tool should be flexible to accommodate policy changes. Unfortunately, this is not something we can test; we have to rely on IETF to select skillful implementors that build flexible tools. Please do not get angry. I get picky when it comes to formally stating implementation requirements! Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 18:43:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08692; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVISS-0005fA-Kk; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:46:28 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIJO-00016Q-Cq; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:37:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIHb-0000Y9-Vz for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:35:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08179 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIKX-0005XF-23 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:38:17 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJNZCJ2014534; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:35:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Larry Masinter" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I7G00LIG41UBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:35:12 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <0I7G00LIG41UBO@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: >> A PDF draft is an IETF loophole, exception to accept complex drawings. >> IMO, long term, PDF drafts should either be validated or >> banned (in favor of better formats that render complex drawings). > > There aren't too many .pdf internet drafts. True. That is, in part, why I do not care much what we do with them. > I think it would be useful to validate PDF documents, > not just that they are valid "PDF", but also whether they > meet a stricter profile, e.g., PDF-Archive, http://www.aiim.org/pdf_a. Agreed, but what can an author of a PDF draft do if their PDF draft does not meat PDF-Archive requirements? > What other formats would IETF allow for complex drawings? SVG and > PNG? Perhaps inside 'artwork' tags in xml? Sure, but since there are so few PDF drafts, I do not think it is a problem worth solving now. > As far as XML validation: > >> It would be a better option for IETF, of course. However, Marshall does >> not work for us and may not want to spend his free time modifying the >> xml2rfc-embedded XML parser because he had more than enough troubles >> with it already. Perhaps, if we have strong consensus that xml2rfc must >> only >> accept valid XML, IETF can pay Marshall or his helper to do the work? > > Adding a pre-processing validity checker doesn't require any > work from Marshall at all. It could be a completely separate > step. The pre-processing validity checker would be least annoying and most useful if it is a part of xml2rfc. If xml2rfc accepts invalid XML then we would have hard time convincing Stas (for example) that the ID Submission Toolset should reject invalid XML. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 18:50:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09093; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIYu-0005ml-VR; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:53:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIPh-0002GZ-4v; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:43:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIKj-0001Jy-T9 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:38:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08410 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVINf-0005b6-3l for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:41:31 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJNcQJ2014791; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:38:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "Larry Masinter" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection References: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <419E7212.7020803@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:38:26 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <419E7212.7020803@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: > I'd like to have this added to the draft, provided we have consensus. We probably have consensus with regard to intent. When/if specific requirements are polished, I would be happy to add those that are in scope to the ID Submissions draft. I suspect many are already there! Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 18:55:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09423; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIdr-0005rV-VH; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:58:19 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIX1-0004WN-2k; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:51:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVIVt-0003sk-70 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:50:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09087 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVIYo-0005mX-Hu for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:53:02 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAJNnxJ2015317; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:49:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:49:58 -0700 To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/11/19 (MST), wrote: > The users of XML in the repository (including the RFC editor) will not be > harmed by the presence of invalid XML, because anyone can always run a > validator and simply not use the XML file if it's invalid What usually happens though, is that code gets written to accommodate invalid XML and, eventually, all IETF tools would have to do it, because some IETF tools do it. Web browsers accepting invalid HTML is a good example why this is likely to happen and why this is bad. Note that W3C specs require browsers to reject invalid XHTML (I know my browser does). They have learned their "GIGO" lesson the hard way. Note that RFC Editor is free to ask Authors for [invalid] XML sources, just like they are doing today. There are a lot more draft versions than RFCs, so I would give priority to the common case. > The realistic options are: > > 1. Leave XML optional and accept any XML that works with xml2rfc; > > 2. Require XML and only accept valid XML. 3. Leave XML optional and accept only valid XML. 4. Leave XML optional and archive invalid XML as a separate content type/format, suitable for virtually nobody bat perhaps RFC Editor humans (this is a short-term solution requiring more work than #3 so I do not favor it). > The choice of the first option can be complemented by working with > Marshall and the xml2rfc community to make the set > (accepted_by_xml2rfc - valid) smaller or even empty. Yes, same for options #3 and #4. > I don't believe that the Tools team has the mandate to choose the > second option. Agreed. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 21 06:27:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA08636; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVpvx-0000Yi-KX; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:31:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVpq4-0007A9-B0; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:25:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVpp7-0006zx-Iv for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:24:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA08255 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.131.36]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVpsM-0000V5-3l for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:27:26 -0500 Received: from filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.131.176]) by relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3FF191EE8 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.131.36]) by filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.131.176]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 25743-31-59 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 192.168.254.3 (67-138-228-18.dsl1.blu.wv.frontiernet.net [67.138.228.18]) by relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 34A22191EEA for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:24:04 +0000 (UTC) From: "Luke Nichols" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:14:46 -0500 Message-Id: <20041121112404.34A22191EEA@relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20040701 (2.0) at filter01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Tools-team] Dos based Web Crawling/DOS based Web Robot X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 11/21/2004 To whom it may concern: Subject: DOS Web Crawling/DOS Web Robot I'm tired. I'm tired of trying to learn Java and how to use windows applications, perl, and all the other weird robots. I'm tired of someone always asking me to pay for something. (Though I'm not a cheapskate, I believe some things should be free.) =20 We use all the search engines to find web sites. They are free. So shou= ld web crawling and web robots. Call me old fashioned, but I liked DOS.=20 Though you had to learn a lot of DOS commands, it was still fairly simple to use. What I am looking for is someone who still knows how to program DOS. Why= ?=20 To build a DOS based Web Crawler/DOS based Web Robot. Why? Cause DOS is no frills, no bells and whistles. What do I need the program to do? I need it to do two simple things: 1. Crawl the web 2. Save the results in a .txt file It's that simple! If you think you can help me either find a DOS based one that is already made, or create one, contact me at: Andrew Luke Nichols lunanic@frontiernet.net Thank you! PS- This is not spam. It's a request. If you received this email in error, I certainly apologize. aln _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 22 04:31:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05330; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWAaq-0000lz-Cv; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:34:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWAUO-0007Tj-1q; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:28:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWAPO-0006v4-SJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:22:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04746 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWASp-0000av-6D for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:26:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACC761B95; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:22:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05390-09; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:22:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51561BB0; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:22:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:58:16 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Larry Masinter , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] policy flexibility, checking for errors even if not cause for rejection Message-ID: <24132600FD8CC76F7512182C@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> References: <0I7G001WD4EVR8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 19. november 2004 13:44 -0800 Larry Masinter wrote: > I think we (tools team) should be careful to separate > 'policy' from 'implementation'. > > Some statements, do you disagree with any of these: > > * Which documents are accepted or rejected is a matter > of policy. Agree. > > * The internet drafts submission tool MUST check > documents and reject those that are not acceptable > according to accepted policy. If you add "as far as reasonable", I agree. There are requirements (such as "must not contain conflicting copyright statements in addition to the mandated ones") that can't be checked for mechanically. A notify-and-takedown procedure for untestable requirement violation should be part of the overall procedure. > * The internet drafts submission tool SHOULD also > check documents for additional potential errors > that might cause additional problems, and warn > the submitter, even if the document is accepted. Agree. > > * Different formats may have different validity > and checking criteria, depending upon available > technology for checking. Agree. > > * We should encourage authors to check for all errors, > even when we will accept documents with some > kinds of errors. Agree. > > * The boundary of which errors cause rejection and > which cause warnings should be flexible, so that > in the future, it can be possible to change the > policy. Agree. > > Larry > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 02:47:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA23396; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWrwP-0005xb-Dv; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:51:53 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWrim-0007b4-8J; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:37:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWrfJ-0006CE-QU for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:34:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19970 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWrix-00043K-Nf for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:38:10 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:32:35 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAO7dkTG029129 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAO7XlJs013360 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.206]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I7O00CO8ACADF@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:33:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:33:44 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I7O00CO9ACADF@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Organization: Adobe Systems MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTR9+1jWSh6GQTKSRSOqaau8Qvpkg== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] hosted services? X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT http://www.kavi.com/ offers hosted services for standards organizations. Rather than having IETF administration manage consultants to produce software, consider outsourcing to someone who specializes in supporting standards organizations... Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 06:13:37 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA10140; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWv9X-0005aS-31; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:17:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWv4F-0002La-Ae; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:12:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWv3U-0001w4-F8 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:11:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09970 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWv7K-0004nQ-CA for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:15:23 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1870261B8F; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:10:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17208-03; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:10:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A15861B8D; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:10:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:24:39 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Larry Masinter , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] hosted services? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0I7O00CO9ACADF@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> References: <0I7O00CO9ACADF@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is a matter the IASA and the IASA AD should seriously consider. Not the tools team. Thanks for the input! --On 23. november 2004 23:33 -0800 Larry Masinter wrote: > http://www.kavi.com/ offers hosted services for standards > organizations. > > Rather than having IETF administration manage consultants to produce > software, consider outsourcing to someone who specializes in > supporting standards organizations... > > Larry > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 11:10:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06684; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWzmj-0001ri-Cz; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:14:25 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWzWP-0007Ur-DX; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:57:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWzUX-0006Zq-It for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:55:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05614 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWzYR-0000MK-0u for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:59:39 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id BAACA381D7; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:54:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7961F37F15 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:54:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6979437E42 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:54:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CWzTq-00048L-0V for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:54:54 +0100 Message-ID: <41A4AECE.8010507@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:54:54 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 24 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. Connection details are given at the end of this mail. --------------------------------------------------------- Agenda: 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 4. Go over revised priority list http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList 5. Charter update http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ProposedCharterUpdate 6. Action item review. * All: Participate in the Work item / priority discussion * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements * Alex: Start looking at Draft Status Page Requirements * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements * Henrik: Put together new charter proposal 7. Any other business. 8. Action items for next week 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 1 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 13:16:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17510; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX1lE-0002Hh-QP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:21:01 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX1XA-0004P8-Q9; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:06:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX1P8-0002OJ-4j for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:58:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16179 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX1T2-0001fj-96 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:02:12 -0500 Received: by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9777E37EEB; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:57:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7E37E48 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:57:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A5737E4C for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:57:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CX1Ob-0007hl-53 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:57:37 +0100 Message-ID: <41A4CB90.7000101@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:57:36 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 0. Bill's data extraction scripts Bill has some scripts which extracts data from web available resources - we might use these as starting point for meta-data extraction. Bill will make the scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled mess :) and database access, in order to be able to generate a prototype xml presentation of some meta-data. 1. Agenda bashing No changes 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft The 3-week request for comments period expires today. Alex will summarise requested changes to the list and update the draft. Henrik will submit for publication. 4. Go over revised priority list http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ToolPriorityList Draft status page - revision control should not be part of the status page. Belongs in the WG page components. Also add community as draft status page users. Meeting scheduler item - the specific mention of MS Word as a format maybe should be removed. Say "format for the typesetter" instead. Should scheduler support ICAP protocol?? No, wouldn't put that as a requirement. Wouldn't mind having it, but is not needed. Maybe something that give people downloadable information which can be merged with their schedules. iCalendar may be the most reasonable format for that. Meeting scheduler is not an easy-to-do item - this is something which if it works is a marketable item. - This might be a tool which aids a human, rather than a tool which automates the scheduling. - After specifying the requirements we might look at possible commercial tools for this = Bill looked at this, and found a greedy algorithm which kind'a worked - it might be possible to automate this. Add information about what items are assigned within the team. 5. Charter update http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ProposedCharterUpdate Henrik fills in dates for the milestones, send a note to the list when ready to review. Give milestone years only for milestones which have not been assigned to somebody. 6. Action item review. * All: Participate in the Work item / priority discussion Done * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements Have this on his plate. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Start looking at Draft Status Page Requirements Have started thinking. Want to post first draft by Mon. December 6th. * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements Not on call. * Henrik: Put together new charter proposal 7. Any other business. Should we put deadlines on the first drafts upcoming? - Done. 8. Action items for next week * Bill: Provide tangled mess of Meta-data extraction scripts and database access to the team, for possible setup of prototype xml meta-data publication. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Henrik: Update Wiki Tool priority list according to comments. * Henrik: Update proposed charter with dates. Ask for feedback on list. Submit to Harald when ready. * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 1 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 17:46:09 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11578; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX5xo-0000Iu-FQ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:50:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX5qA-0007rV-Oq; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:42:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX5n8-00079K-Do for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:39:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11146 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX5r4-0000Bv-HD for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:43:19 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAOMdAJ2076492; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:39:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:39:10 -0700 To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "IETF TOOLS" Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat References: <41A4CB90.7000101@levkowetz.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41A4CB90.7000101@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/11/24 (MST), wrote: > 0. Bill's data extraction scripts > > Bill has some scripts which extracts data from web > available resources - we might use these as starting > point for meta-data extraction. Bill will make the > scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled > mess :) and database access, in order to be able to > generate a prototype xml presentation of some meta-data. I think sharing just the database is enough as a starting point and will save Bill some time (it is usually rather time consuming to share an entangled mess of cron jobs and such!). I thought that database sharing (without the scripts) is what we agreed on during the conference call. Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 19:41:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21486; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX7lx-0002ou-JF; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:46:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX7dc-0003q2-PC; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:37:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX7Z1-0002uk-3g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:32:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20956 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX7cy-0002bx-Qc for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:36:53 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A84E73811B; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:32:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4C537E79; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:32:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8895C37E43; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:32:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CX7YT-0006Nt-LQ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:32:13 +0100 Message-ID: <41A5280D.3020407@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:32:13 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat References: <41A4CB90.7000101@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-24 11:39 pm Alex Rousskov said the following: > On Wed, 2004/11/24 (MST), wrote: > >> 0. Bill's data extraction scripts >> >> Bill has some scripts which extracts data from web >> available resources - we might use these as starting >> point for meta-data extraction. Bill will make the >> scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled >> mess :) and database access, in order to be able to >> generate a prototype xml presentation of some meta-data. > > I think sharing just the database is enough as a starting point and will > save Bill some time (it is usually rather time consuming to share an > entangled mess of cron jobs and such!). I thought that database sharing > (without the scripts) is what we agreed on during the conference call. No, the notes were taken right on the spot and reflect what we said. And beside that the database alone doesn't give any understanding of where the data comes from currently, so I'd like to have a look at the scripts, too. But I can do the digging - no fixing and cleaning required. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 24 21:50:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA00436; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX9m7-0005Kh-K8; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:54:27 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX9h1-0001j6-7g; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:49:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CX9gG-0001Y4-P7 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:48:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA00208 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CX9kF-0005IG-Ul for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:52:32 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAP2mNJ2089790; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:48:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iAP2mNig089789; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:48:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:48:22 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat In-Reply-To: <41A5280D.3020407@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <20041124194318.K88445@measurement-factory.com> References: <41A4CB90.7000101@levkowetz.com> <41A5280D.3020407@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: IETF TOOLS X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > on 2004-11-24 11:39 pm Alex Rousskov said the following: >> On Wed, 2004/11/24 (MST), wrote: >> >>> 0. Bill's data extraction scripts >>> >>> Bill has some scripts which extracts data from web >>> available resources - we might use these as starting >>> point for meta-data extraction. Bill will make the >>> scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled >>> mess :) and database access, in order to be able to >>> generate a prototype xml presentation of some meta-data. >> >> I think sharing just the database is enough as a starting point and will >> save Bill some time (it is usually rather time consuming to share an >> entangled mess of cron jobs and such!). I thought that database sharing >> (without the scripts) is what we agreed on during the conference call. > > No, the notes were taken right on the spot and reflect what > we said. If you say so. > And beside that the database alone doesn't give > any understanding of where the data comes from currently, so > I'd like to have a look at the scripts, too. I do not see the vital importance of current sources, but it does not hurt to know, of course (provided Bill is willing to spend time on giving you what you need). > But I can do the digging - no fixing and cleaning required. Just collecting and packaging may take some time, but that's up to Bill to decide, I guess. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 25 14:59:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11245; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CXPpr-0003uO-FM; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:03:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CXPjO-00080v-O0; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:56:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CXPfB-0007JH-FY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:52:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10799 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CXPjJ-0003l2-0A for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:56:38 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9471974C1; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAPJpmf25075; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411251951.iAPJpmf25075@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:51:46 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 > Bill will make the > scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled > mess :) http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/bills-mess-o-scripts.tar.gz Not sure I got everything. 12 scripts plus crontab, README and perl modules. > and database access Instructions on the BillsDatabase wiki page. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 28 19:23:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29951; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYZPF-0000gz-SS; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:28:43 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYZIS-0004CM-0k; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:21:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYZE4-0003jo-Mo for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:17:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29375 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYZIs-0000Yk-0f for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:22:06 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 3E12D38014; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4A537E7C for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257E637E45 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CYZDT-00035O-TZ for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:31 +0100 Message-ID: <41AA6A5E.40204@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:30 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Charter update X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've updated the Charter proposal page again - have a look at http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/ProposedCharterUpdate and see if it looks good to you. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 28 19:23:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29988; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYZPM-0000hI-0w; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:28:48 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYZIT-0004Ck-6A; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:21:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYZFO-0003qS-9L for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:18:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29468 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.114]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYZKA-0000Ze-Oh for tools-team@ietf.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:23:28 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DD53237F57; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av7-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5E437ECE; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16AC37E46; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CYZEr-00035T-LP; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:57 +0100 Message-ID: <41AA6AB5.2090802@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:17:57 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 24 November 2004 Telechat References: <200411251951.iAPJpmf25075@windsor.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200411251951.iAPJpmf25075@windsor.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-11-25 8:51 pm Bill Fenner said the following: >> Bill will make the >> scripts available for us to look at (as a tangled >> mess :) > > http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/bills-mess-o-scripts.tar.gz Thanks, have pulled it down and will have a look at it. > Not sure I got everything. 12 scripts plus crontab, README and > perl modules. > >> and database access > > Instructions on the BillsDatabase wiki page. Good stuff. I've looked briefly at it, will be useful I think. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 17:27:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20664; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYu4S-0000zX-K8; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:32:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYtqm-0004s5-ID; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:18:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYtNj-0008Fc-TI for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:48:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14067 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYtSh-0007KT-TP for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:53:37 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2738A7BB2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iATLlq904866; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:47:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:47:50 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Sorry to open up a previously contentious topic, but: Is it enough for the file to be valid XML, or does it have to pass the DTD? 33% of the recent files at http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/xml/ don't validate against the DTD. ("Recent" means "since RFC 2451", which was when the automatic conversion stopped generating invalid XML. If I include all the files, including the buggy automatically converted ones, I end up with more like 70% don't validate). 3 of the files don't appear to be valid XML from xmllint's point of view (one has -- inside a comment, two have [CDATA[]] sequences that it chokes on but I don't see what's wrong with them so might be false positives). Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 30 11:36:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04770; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZB4t-0008BF-H7; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:42:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZAkm-0002dH-IY; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:21:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZAcK-0008VQ-2c for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:12:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02442 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZAhR-0007XZ-NN for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:17:59 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAUGCYJ2082219; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:12:33 -0700 To: "Bill Fenner" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 2004/11/29 (MST), wrote: > Is it enough for the file to be valid XML, or does it have to pass > the DTD? It has to pas the DTD, IMO. My primary concern are [future] tools that use XML libraries that will not deal with broken XML. I suspect that some libraries will not deal with XML that does not pass DTD validation. Also, there is little pragmatic difference between enforcing basic XML validity and DTD-based validity. So we should get all the benefits for about the same price... You should probably test against the latest DTD in [1], not the one in RFC 2629. [1] http://xml.resource.org/authoring/draft-mrose-writing-rfcs.html Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 30 12:31:31 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09930; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZBvp-0001Fc-3V; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:36:54 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZBlu-0004bw-Cv; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:26:38 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZBNM-0005EN-BG for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:01:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07210 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-dark.research.att.com ([192.20.225.112] helo=mail-yellow.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZBST-0000NQ-KO for tools-team@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:06:35 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26DEAA7BB0; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iAUH0cW21535; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:00:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411301700.iAUH0cW21535@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: rousskov@measurement-factory.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:00:37 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c >You should probably test against the latest DTD in [1], not the one in RFC >2629. >[1] http://xml.resource.org/authoring/draft-mrose-writing-rfcs.html Of course, that's what I used. (At least, the one that comes with xml2rfc 1.26). Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team