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Passwords for tools-team-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- tools-team@ietf.org fuuwuh https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-team/tools-team-archive%40ietf.org From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 10:46:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14419; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZWmH-0002qF-VM; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:52:27 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZTjB-0003cy-Op; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:37:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZSJN-0008Sz-F5 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:06:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13399 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 06:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZSOd-0005VH-CD for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:11:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0083161C23; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:05:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20538-03; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:05:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA90361B93; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:05:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:15:02 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , Bill Fenner , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting Message-ID: <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this points out a generic problem with tools: version skew. If the DTD/schema is widened to allow previously disallowed content, the widening has to happen first at the accepting site, then at the users. If it is narrowed, the narrowing has to happen first at the users, then at the accepting site - this is harder. When switching from a DTD to a schema, which (I believe) checks different things, we have even more trouble. And when the validator tools start checking things that were not checked before, we will (as Bill noted) have even more fun. My conclusion: We have to allow upload of XML that does not pass the current set of validations - there are too many cases where there is good reason to submit such. And in the deadline crunch, there's no time to go fight with the implementor of the checker. We should, however, give very plain warning - "the following errors have been detected - do you still want to upload?" - the same way I think we're wanting to do for id-nits errors. My opinion. Harald --On 30. november 2004 09:12 -0700 Alex Rousskov wrote: > On Mon, 2004/11/29 (MST), wrote: > >> Is it enough for the file to be valid XML, or does it have to pass >> the DTD? > > It has to pas the DTD, IMO. > > My primary concern are [future] tools that use XML libraries that will > not deal with broken XML. I suspect that some libraries will not deal > with XML that does not pass DTD validation. Also, there is little > pragmatic difference between enforcing basic XML validity and DTD-based > validity. So we should get all the benefits for about the same price... > > You should probably test against the latest DTD in [1], not the one in > RFC 2629. > [1] http://xml.resource.org/authoring/draft-mrose-writing-rfcs.html > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 12:39:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01960; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYX5-0006D3-EU; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:44:52 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXcC-00030S-NU; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:46:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZWIS-0003Ba-HT for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:21:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10257 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZWNn-0002Fv-Gc for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:27:08 -0500 Received: by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 76BAF37F34; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:20:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9AD37EA9 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:20:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB0F37E46 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:20:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CZWHp-0002Ze-1b for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: <41ADE0D2.4060403@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:18:42 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 1 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 4. Go over revised priority list 5. Charter update 6. Action item review. * Bill: Provide tangled mess of Meta-data extraction scripts and database access to the team, for possible setup of prototype xml meta-data publication. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Henrik: Update Wiki Tool priority list according to comments. * Henrik: Update proposed charter with dates. Ask for feedback on list. Submit to Harald when ready. * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 7. Any other business. 8. Action items for next week 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 8 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialing: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 12:40:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02169; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYXy-0006Gw-FF; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:45:46 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXiO-0005Df-KN; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:52:28 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZWYv-00038b-0a for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:38:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12850 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZWeF-0002aQ-IR for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:44:08 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1FcWJ2049824; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:38:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:38:32 -0700 To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/12/01 (MST), wrote: > this points out a generic problem with tools: version skew. > > If the DTD/schema is widened to allow previously disallowed content, the > widening has to happen first at the accepting site, then at the users. > > If it is narrowed, the narrowing has to happen first at the users, then > at the accepting site - this is harder. > > When switching from a DTD to a schema, which (I believe) checks > different things, we have even more trouble. While I agree that the changes in DTD and/or schema need to be carefully propagated, I do not see a serious problem or trouble here. What specifically are you worried about? > And when the validator tools start checking things that were not checked > before, we will (as Bill noted) have even more fun. If by "fun" you mean higher quality drafts, then I agree. If you mean complains from users, then we need to distinguish short-term growth problems from long-term inconveniences. > My conclusion: We have to allow upload of XML that does not pass the > current set of validations - there are too many cases where there is > good reason to submit such. And in the deadline crunch, there's no time > to go fight with the implementor of the checker. I am afraid I do not see the "too many cases" you are referring to. I cannot think of a good reason to submit broken XML, regardless of the deadline proximity: If the draft submission tool rejects your XML, then (a) fix XML and resubmit, (b) use the manual Secretariat route, or (c) do not submit XML. What's wrong with that approach? > We should, however, give very plain warning - "the following errors have > been detected - do you still want to upload?" Except for the manual Secretariat route, I do not see the point in uploading broken XML. Do you? Thanks, Alex. P.S. If NEWTRK IDS make it, we will need a different set of acceptance criteria for them, provided their primary format remains XML. However, I would still argue that broken XML should not be auto-posted, _especially_ when XML is the primary format! Accepting something that IETF tools cannot grok would cause nothing but trouble. Rejecting it should not cause any trouble, except in a few special cases that can be handled manually. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 12:44:33 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03201; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYc9-0006XM-Q3; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:50:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXmu-0006tK-JD; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:57:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZWnf-0001OT-Mg for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:53:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15559 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZWt0-00031U-4W for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:59:23 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5DC61C24; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:53:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26920-01; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:53:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C6761B92; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:53:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:53:15 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting Message-ID: <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On onsdag, desember 01, 2004 08:38:32 -0700 Alex Rousskov wrote: >> My conclusion: We have to allow upload of XML that does not pass the >> current set of validations - there are too many cases where there is >> good reason to submit such. And in the deadline crunch, there's no time >> to go fight with the implementor of the checker. > > I am afraid I do not see the "too many cases" you are referring to. I > cannot think of a good reason to submit broken XML, regardless of the > deadline proximity: If the draft submission tool rejects your XML, then > (a) fix XML and resubmit, (b) use the manual Secretariat route, or (c) do > not submit XML. What's wrong with that approach? If you don't see it, look a little harder, please.... "too many cases" are for instance: - XML validator has a bug, and rejects some valid XML with valid schema - XML validator checks schema version 1.4, submitter conforms to 1.5 - XML validator checks schema version 1.5, submitter conforms to 1.4 - XML is produced by tool "X", which is emitting version 1.3-compliant code - XML is produced by tool "Y", which puts -- inside an XML comment - XML is produced by tool "Z", which produces an XML weirdness that was not checked for before, but the validator got upgraded 2 hours ago And think through yourself as the submitter in all of these cases, 5 minutes before the deadline. And look at Bill's numbers - half the drafts that people have so far submitted, BELIEVING they were conformant, were not. The result of refusing to accept XML that does not pass the validator at the crunch is "not submit XML" - and IMHO, it is *harder* to generate any sensible metadata from "no XML" than from "XML that did not pass the checker". Harald _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 12:58:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04386; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYp2-0006uj-Ai; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:03:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXro-0000Jg-ST; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:02:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZWvL-0005o8-PA for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:01:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17021 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.211] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZX0V-0003Is-JQ for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:07:19 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob1.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:00:12 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB1FuZQY004691 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1G1W0v022287 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.160]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I8100J4IWIK6B@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:01:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:01:32 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I8100J4JWIK6B@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTXvwbyGREOOXdISkes1jT6pyQMDQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [Tools-team] regrets X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm on another call which looks like it will run on through the tools-team call. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 13:35:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07272; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZZPS-0007mM-Ej; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:41:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZYP2-0007zc-Pv; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:36:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXZ3-0000rr-FU for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:42:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24528 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZXeM-0004D0-BK for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:48:21 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1GggJ2052489; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:42:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:42:41 -0700 To: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/12/01 (MST), wrote: > "too many cases" are for instance: > > - XML validator has a bug, and rejects some valid XML with valid schema Use the manual route or do not submit XML (and consider reporting a bug). Once the toolset is stable, the bugs will be exceptions that Secretariat can dial with manually. > - XML validator checks schema version 1.4, submitter conforms to 1.5 > - XML validator checks schema version 1.5, submitter conforms to 1.4 XML validator must use the IETF-approved schema(s). Non-conformant formats should not be accepted (for the reasons I stated earlier). If XML validator does not use the IETF-approved schema(s), it is a validator bug (see above). And, again, since schema/DTD changes would be quite infrequent, I do not see a reason to optimize for a rare conflict. > - XML is produced by tool "X", which is emitting version 1.3-compliant > code > - XML is produced by tool "Y", which puts -- inside an XML comment > - XML is produced by tool "Z", which produces an XML weirdness that was > not checked for before, but the validator got upgraded 2 hours ago I do not think the tool producing XML matters in this context. I can only see two really different cases among all the cases you listed above: - validator is correct - validator is buggy Once stable, the validator will be correct virtually all the time and exceptions can be dealt with manually. Why optimize for exceptions? And, of course, upgrading validator just before the IETF deadline is a bad idea. > And think through yourself as the submitter in all of these cases, 5 > minutes before the deadline. If I have 5 minutes before the deadline, I will drop XML format or use the manual route (depending on the error message), no problem. > And look at Bill's numbers - half the drafts that people have so far > submitted, BELIEVING they were conformant, were not. Bill's numbers are irrelevant in this particular case because there was no validation. Once there is validation and the validator is stable, the numbers will be very different. Short-term (while the validator is not stable), there is no compelling reason to accept invalid drafts either. In fact, errors will prompt more folks to complain to validator implementor (and/or Marshall) and bugs will be fixed. > The result of refusing to accept XML that does not pass the validator at > the crunch is "not submit XML" - and IMHO, it is *harder* to generate > any sensible metadata from "no XML" than from "XML that did not pass the > checker". Not for an automated tool that cannot "see" invalid XML (the parser simply returns an error, refusing to return an XML "tree" or a DOM object of sorts). And, again, all of your cases are exceptional, uncommon scenarious once things become stable (which should not take that long since we already have semi-stable tools to be re-used here). Thanks, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 13:37:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07570; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZZRE-0007rs-O1; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:42:52 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZYSM-0001K3-Q4; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:39:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZXgg-0004k2-Sq for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:50:42 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25613 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZXm1-0004SK-Uj for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:56:15 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1GoeJ2052699 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:50:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:50:39 -0700 To: "IETF TOOLS team" From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Tools-team] ID Submission draft: pending issues X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have fixed one minor problem in 06 version of the draft (CGI is not mandatory for action implementation). I am aware of two more comments that are currently not addressed: 1) Should we accept compressed drafts via email? How about web interface? My current plan is to mention compressed draft as a 3rd stage feature, for both interfaces. Any objections? 2) Should we accept invalid XML? I do not think we have consensus regarding this one. I think it is important to prevent invalid XML from being posted, but a few people disagree (to various extent). I am not sure how to proceed here. Did I miss anything? Thank you, Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 14:17:17 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11488; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZa3w-0000WP-Il; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:22:53 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZZIT-0001pW-Vm; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:33:50 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZYKq-0005lP-Eq for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:32:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00771 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYQC-0005nU-HS for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:37:45 -0500 Received: by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B678737EBE; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:31:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A005537ECC for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:31:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C58F3801C for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:31:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CZYKJ-0007O3-Ab for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:31:39 +0100 Message-ID: <41ADFFFA.30608@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:31:38 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 1 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2beba50d0fcdeee5f091c59f204d4365 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing No changes 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 3 changes needed; 1 done and 2 sent to the list. * Do we want to accept compressed drafts? -> 3rd phase * Accepting invalid XML? -- Accept everything that xml2rfc accepts -- Accept well-formed but unvalidated xml -- Accept only XML which validates against the DTD - One option might be to give warnings in phase 2, and reject nonvalidating xml in phase 3. This requires finding a validator which give decent error messages. Hopefully -07 will be out by weekend. 4. Go over revised priority list No comments on the revised wiki page 5. Charter update No comments. Will be sent to Harald for charter update tomorrow. 6. Action item review. * Bill: Provide tangled mess of Meta-data extraction scripts and database access to the team, for possible setup of prototype xml meta-data publication. Done. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. - * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. Some text drafted, on schedule. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. In progress * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready - * Henrik: Update Wiki Tool priority list according to comments. Done * Henrik: Update proposed charter with dates. Ask for feedback on list. Submit to Harald when ready. Done * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements - 7. Any other business. We will have a hiatus over Christmas, so there will be no call on December 29th. 8. Action items for next week * Henrik: Talk to Donald. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Henrik: Submit changed charter to Harald. * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 8 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialling: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 14:35:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15654; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZaLf-0001mM-1R; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:41:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZZTq-0006RO-Fd; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:45:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZYlA-0003It-7I for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:59:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04536 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYqW-0006wF-P6 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:04:57 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9A9197482 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iB1HwqW10418; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:58:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200412011758.iB1HwqW10418@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 1 December 2004 Telechat Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:58:50 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Well, the mail delay is getting better; it's not 5 hours any more... message <41ADE0D2.4060403@levkowetz.com> 2h 20m 38s end to end 2m 15s MUA -> shiraz.levkowetz.com 0s shiraz.levkowetz.com -> smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net 0s smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net -> av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net 0s av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net -> av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net 6m 11s av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net -> ietf-mx.ietf.org -5m 33s ietf-mx.ietf.org -> ietf.org 1s ietf.org -> megatron.ietf.org 1h 24m 29s megatron.ietf.org -> megatron.ietf.org 53m 13s megatron.ietf.org -> mail-dark.research.att.com 0s mail-dark.research.att.com -> mail-brown.research.att.com 2s mail-brown.research.att.com -> mail-brown.research.att.com 0s mail-brown.research.att.com -> mail-brown.research.att.com 0s mail-brown.research.att.com -> bigmail.research.att.com 0s bigmail.research.att.com -> unknown _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 14:36:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15879; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZaMT-0001rJ-J5; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:42:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZZX6-0007uk-44; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:48:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZYsb-0007Ue-G7 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:07:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05068 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZYxx-00075w-89 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:12:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBFB1CD75F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08026-01 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF5B1CD757 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 01 Dec 2004 13:07:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: > The result of refusing to accept XML that does not pass the > validator at the crunch is "not submit XML" [...] [Some violent agreement.] I would further strike ``at the crunch'' from this sentence. XML is currently an optional format. If people are kind enough to provide the source that they use to create the draft, we should be grateful, not ridiculously picky. If a consumer of this format -- human, automated, bacterial, or alien -- doesn't like some particular kind of the format -- not passing validation, not satisfying the latest DTD, not satisfying the previous version of the DTD, having lines that are too long, not having a newline at the end of file, using splice commas or split infinitives, or having too many capital letters -- the consumer can always choose not to consume the source. No such consumer choice is there if XML is not there. This would change if XML submission were required by policy. Part of this policy would then say what requirements the XML files need to satisfy. The usefulness of such a policy can be debated (probably not here), but lack of its current existence cannot be. When is the presence of XML confusing and harmful? When it's not actually the source. When it's, say, the source of a different I-D or something else entirely. If a common version of xml2rfc takes the XML and produces the plain text version from it, and it matches the submitted plain text version, we know that the XML version is, indeed, the source code for the draft. It should then be accepted. (Unless, again, the policy is changed.) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 16:27:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26687; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZc5z-000540-Ol; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:33:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZbYB-0002iE-8V; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZaQ4-0007nQ-Qa for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:45:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17012 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob8.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.218] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZaVR-00029x-8x for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:51:18 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob8.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:43:17 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB1JpcTG012005; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1JjcJs019798; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.160]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I8200C1D6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:45:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:45:37 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> To: "'stanislav shalunov'" , tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I8200C1F6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTX3Q2mNVW/kFHKQiGRwX+K+q4ELAAAOFyA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If we accept XML files that don't pass validation, we could publish the XML errors as well as the XML draft in the (XML) drafts index. > When is the presence of XML confusing and harmful? When it's not > actually the source. When it's, say, the source of a different I-D or > something else entirely. Should this be a criteria for acceptance? Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 16:43:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28747; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZcL8-0005WM-Tu; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:48:51 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZbgT-0004Kn-IK; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:06:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZb1h-0005I4-1S for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:24:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20756 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZb74-0002ug-4Z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:30:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD811CD80A for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31685-04 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA0A1CD803 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:24:34 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8200C1F6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 01 Dec 2004 15:25:03 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0I8200C1F6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <86acsxhilc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Larry Masinter writes: > If we accept XML files that don't pass validation, we could publish > the XML errors as well as the XML draft in the (XML) drafts index. Yes. > > When is the presence of XML confusing and harmful? When it's not > > actually the source. When it's, say, the source of a different I-D or > > something else entirely. > > Should this be a criteria for acceptance? Quite possibly. At the very least, the provided XML should at least be acceptable to xml2rfc as a valid input. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 18:26:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09754; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZdx4-0008W3-Em; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:32:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZdnE-000167-Dr; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:21:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZdio-0001Z3-82 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:17:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08619 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZdoB-0008I7-Dr for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:22:54 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1NHEJ2072716; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:17:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:17:13 -0700 To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/12/01 (MST), wrote: > I would further strike ``at the crunch'' from this sentence. XML is > currently an optional format. If people are kind enough to provide > the source that they use to create the draft, we should be grateful, > not ridiculously picky. I do not consider a simple DTD or schema validation being "ridiculously picky". If we have to resort to undefined adjectives, I would say that accepting invalid XML is a "ridiculously careless" idea. > If a consumer of this format -- human, automated, bacterial, or alien > -- doesn't like some particular kind of the format -- not passing > validation, not satisfying the latest DTD, not satisfying the previous > version of the DTD, having lines that are too long, not having a > newline at the end of file, using splice commas or split infinitives, > or having too many capital letters -- the consumer can always choose > not to consume the source. No such consumer choice is there if XML is > not there. In real world, the consumer will be forced to deal with broken XML. Tools we be written to convert broken drafts to valid ones. Other tools will not use the "best" XML library (based on some more important criteria) because it cannot deal with broken XML. These are _long-term_ overheads I am trying to avoid. How many browsers do you know that reject broken HTML? Why do you think W3C has not used "be tolerant to crap" policy when defining newer formats such as XHTML? Because long-term overheads of supporting broken stuff are far more than short-term overheads of fixing it. > This would change if XML submission were required by policy. Part of > this policy would then say what requirements the XML files need to > satisfy. The usefulness of such a policy can be debated (probably not > here), but lack of its current existence cannot be. I disagree that whether XML is required or not is important here. You can use the same line of arguments even if XML is required -- if xml2rfc works, we do not care about whether XML is valid. > When is the presence of XML confusing and harmful? When it's not > actually the source. When it's, say, the source of a different I-D or > something else entirely. If a common version of xml2rfc takes the XML > and produces the plain text version from it, and it matches the > submitted plain text version, we know that the XML version is, indeed, > the source code for the draft. It should then be accepted. (Unless, > again, the policy is changed.) While this is a good requirement in principle, I am not sure we should mandate xml2rfc as the only XML processor. There are already other tools that handle XML drafts. They can produce slightly different text, given the same XML, right? And if we accept the fact that there are many valid renderings of XML, I am not sure the submission tool will be able to validate whether the text matches the XML... In the long run, a perhaps better approach would be not to accept plain text if XML is supplied (or not accept plain text at all). However, we cannot do that in the foreseeable future except for new things like NEWTRK ISDs. Alex. P.S. I wish XML would be some binary format that would not have a false implication that it is easy to parse regardless of structure validity! _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 1 18:56:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12649; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZeQZ-0000yk-ME; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:02:32 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZdnu-0001jx-6u; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:22:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZdlZ-0007KJ-Bm for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:20:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08983 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZdqy-0008LU-Uh for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:25:45 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB1NK7J2072725; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:20:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) To: "stanislav shalunov" , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8200C1F6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <86acsxhilc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:20:07 -0700 From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86acsxhilc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2004/12/01 (MST), wrote: > Larry Masinter writes: > >> If we accept XML files that don't pass validation, we could publish >> the XML errors as well as the XML draft in the (XML) drafts index. > > Yes. And what would be the point? The authors already know their XML is buggy, why do we need to publish the errors? I would understand a boolean valid/invalid flag -- that can be used by tools to skip invalid XML. Who would use the published errors and how? > At the very least, the provided XML should at least > be acceptable to xml2rfc as a valid input. I agree with that. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 2 17:57:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10289; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZzyf-0001fx-Au; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:03:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZxUg-0003MN-3f; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:24:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZv0W-0008Kr-TO; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:44:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14344; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZv66-0002l6-Fi; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:50:30 -0500 Received: from apache by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1CZtA6-0006FA-0G; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:46:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs From: IETF Secretariat Message-Id: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:46:30 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: tools-team@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Enhancements to IETF IPR Disclosure Search Capability X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Dear IETF Working Group Chairs: The "Document Search" capability of the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_disclosure.cgi) has been updated to allow for partial I-D filename searches. A user may now search for all Internet-Drafts that contain a specific word or string and select the draft of interest from the list returned. The "Document Search" capability has also been updated to return the "Total number of IPR Disclosures found" as well as the "Total number of documents searched" when a user searches on either an I-D filename or an RFC number. In this way, the user will know immediately if there are any IPR disclosures pertaining to the Internet-Draft or RFC of interest or to related documents. If you require assistance in using the "IETF IPR Disclosure Page," or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 2 21:32:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28861; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ca3LE-0006Wt-0k; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:38:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ca0RH-0004Rc-Ah; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:32:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZz2v-0002v5-Nw for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:03:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04089 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZz8W-00006I-M3 for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:09:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF891CD6F6 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11640-06 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FEA1CD57C for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:03:25 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8200C1F6W1BC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <86acsxhilc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Dec 2004 17:03:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86wtw0e4s6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > On Wed, 2004/12/01 (MST), wrote: > > Larry Masinter writes: > >> If we accept XML files that don't pass validation, we could publish > >> the XML errors as well as the XML draft in the (XML) drafts index. > > Yes. > > And what would be the point? The authors already know their XML is > buggy, why do we need to publish the errors? I would understand a > boolean valid/invalid flag -- that can be used by tools to skip > invalid XML. Who would use the published errors and how? I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I was simply agreeing that we could, in fact, publish the errors without doing any obvious harm. It might be useful to publish at least a valid/invalid flag, so that XML-consuming tools might be able to more easily avoid dealing with bad XML. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed in boustrophedon. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 2 21:42:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29647; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ca3UQ-0006mH-R9; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:48:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ca0Rs-0004fy-3U; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 18:33:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CZzIW-0005ng-2g for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:19:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05427 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CZzO8-0000Vp-16 for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:25:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DBB1CD4EE for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14093-10 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6054B1CD533 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:19:34 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 02 Dec 2004 17:20:03 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86sm6oe418.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 78 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc "Alex Rousskov" writes: > In real world, the consumer will be forced to deal with broken XML. > Tools we be written to convert broken drafts to valid ones. Other > tools will not use the "best" XML library (based on some more > important criteria) because it cannot deal with broken XML. These > are _long-term_ overheads I am trying to avoid. I understand your rationale and would agree with your position if it, combined with the fact that XML is optional, would not lead to a situation where users are discouraged from sharing the source (the actual source, good or bad) of their drafts. > How many browsers do you know that reject broken HTML? A few complain. I'd like the various ``web designers'' (hate that term) to use them, but haven't had a lot of success even at my employer. > Why do you think W3C has not used "be tolerant to crap" policy when > defining newer formats such as XHTML? Because long-term overheads > of supporting broken stuff are far more than short-term overheads of > fixing it. I understand your rationale. You're preaching in the wrong place. It should be xml2rfc that need to reject bad XML. > I disagree that whether XML is required or not is important here. > You can use the same line of arguments even if XML is required -- if > xml2rfc works, we do not care about whether XML is valid. Here's why the optionality of XML is crucial: if XML is a required (or perhaps the only accepted) format, then being picky about it within reason is acceptable, as authors would face a different alternative: fix XML or do not publish the draft. As they evidently find some communications value in I-D publication (otherwise they wouldn't have bothered writing the draft), they would have an incentive to fix their XML. With optional XML, the obvious alternative is different: fix XML or do not upload XML. The second branch is way easier. > While this is a good requirement in principle, I am not sure we > should mandate xml2rfc as the only XML processor. There are already > other tools that handle XML drafts. They can produce slightly > different text, given the same XML, right? And if we accept the > fact that there are many valid renderings of XML, I am not sure the > submission tool will be able to validate whether the text matches > the XML... Can we do some fuzzy matching or at least metadata matching? (We already need to be able to extract metadata from plain text.) This would prevent some errors. > In the long run, a perhaps better approach would be not to accept > plain text if XML is supplied (or not accept plain text at all). I agree. > However, we cannot do that in the foreseeable future except for new > things like NEWTRK ISDs. Why? (Plain text versions generated on the server would then of course be published as the official representation.) > P.S. I wish XML would be some binary format that would not have a > false implication that it is easy to parse regardless of structure > validity! Then it wouldn't be a source format, and we would not be having this discussion. (That's not to say that we wouldn't be having the same discussion about the source code used to produce the binary format...) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 06:37:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25242; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaBq1-0000xN-WC; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 06:43:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaALp-0003cs-Hr; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 05:07:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ca8e5-0007au-K5 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:18:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10113 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 03:18:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.212] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ca8jl-0005PZ-Lx for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:24:23 -0500 Received: from source ([193.95.148.142]) by exprod6ob2.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:17:24 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB38OOTG018506 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 00:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB38IN6T025925 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 00:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.83]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I85007T40ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:18:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:18:23 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <86wtw0e4s6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTY4GThlgnPMleLRbirmJudJva0sAALq7tA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > And what would be the point? The authors already know their XML is > > buggy, why do we need to publish the errors? I would understand a > > boolean valid/invalid flag -- that can be used by tools to skip > > invalid XML. Who would use the published errors and how? Internet drafts are revised and updated, and are usually produced by a community. If there's a draft with bad XML and we make it clear that there's an error in the XML, maybe someone will figure out how to fix the XML and help the poor author with the next version. If we just post the bad XML blindly, or with just a comment back to the author, maybe the author won't do anything. I think if we go to the trouble of generating a status report on the submitted document, posting the result will help, both with peer pressure and community involvement. I was thinking of something simple, e.g., the internet drafts index could have _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.txt_ _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml_ (errors detected, see _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml-error-log_) Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 09:03:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05841; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaE7I-00046H-FD; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 09:09:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaBky-0006Ir-E7; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 06:37:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaAM5-0003dm-IQ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 05:08:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA18076 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 05:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaARm-0007as-Rj for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 05:13:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3741161B96; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:07:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31542-07; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:07:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A609D61AD4; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:07:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:01:18 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Alex Rousskov , stanislav shalunov , tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <200411182230.iAIMUhB00435@windsor.research.att.com> <86vfc2d9qu.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118165924.M39909@measurement-factory.com> <86r7mqd6y6.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118173350.O39909@measurement-factory.com> <86is82d3cp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <20041118194931.Q39909@measurement-factory.com> <861xeqctwx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86pt29aebx.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <86d5y98ocl.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <200411292147.iATLlq904866@windsor.research.att.com> <046B0DA821E39ED3A753C1E5@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <4519EE36ECBB737F31DA6EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <86sm6phoyj.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 1. desember 2004 16:17 -0700 Alex Rousskov wrote: > P.S. I wish XML would be some binary format that would not have a false > implication that it is easy to parse regardless of structure validity! > been there, done that. ASN.1. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 13:48:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19306; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaIZj-0007xP-V7; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:54:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaGIE-0008V5-4k; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:28:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaFfj-0002OI-Mr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:48:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18325 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaFlT-0006bp-NA for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:54:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA701CD556 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23211-09 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102201CD53D for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:48:37 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Dec 2004 10:49:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <868y8fbcwc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Larry Masinter writes: > (errors detected, see _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml-error-log_) I thought that any other possible warnings (non-XML-related) would be published then, too. The arguments about peer pressure and whatnot apply to them equally well, don't they? -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at an angle of 45 degrees. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 14:24:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24517; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJ8M-00018L-UH; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:30:27 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaIMS-0002Q5-4A; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:40:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaG2b-0005p7-HB for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:12:18 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20672 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaG8L-0007Hk-Lz for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:18:15 -0500 Received: by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 69B7E37ED1; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:11:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDC937E74; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:11:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BE437E43; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:11:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaG23-00073Z-Hr; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:11:43 +0100 Message-ID: <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:11:43 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter , IETF TOOLS Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-03 9:18 am Larry Masinter said the following: >> > And what would be the point? The authors already know their XML is >> > buggy, why do we need to publish the errors? I would understand a >> > boolean valid/invalid flag -- that can be used by tools to skip >> > invalid XML. Who would use the published errors and how? > > Internet drafts are revised and updated, and are usually produced by > a community. If there's a draft with bad XML and we make it > clear that there's an error in the XML, maybe someone will figure > out how to fix the XML and help the poor author with the next > version. > > If we just post the bad XML blindly, or with just a comment > back to the author, maybe the author won't do anything. > > I think if we go to the trouble of generating a status report > on the submitted document, posting the result will help, > both with peer pressure and community involvement. > > I was thinking of something simple, e.g., the internet drafts > index could have > > _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.txt_ > _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml_ > (errors detected, see _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml-error-log_) This looks pretty good to me. It could be part of the WG draft pages as well as the internet-drafts index. So, what about this as a resolution: In stage (a), we only handle text format submissions. In stage (b), we also accept other formats, including XML. It is required that the XML can be converted to text by xml2rfc running under the submission tool. In this phase, we do not require that it is well-formed and validates, but we require that the submission tool does validation and provide feedback, indicating the validation errors found. We also provide a separate validation- only page. In stage (c), we require that the tool has the capability to reject XML sources that doesn't validate, and also that the tool has the option of only doing meta-data extraction from xml, not from text. This makes it possible to make the policy decision of making it easier to submit with validated XML source rather than with text only. Personally, I think that given good validation feedback on submission and having an online validation service will make most people pretty quickly fix their xml errors. I see how meticulous a lot of people seem to be about fixing not only the errors given by idnits, but also the warnings. And having a notice about xml errors detected alongside with the xml code associated with a draft on e.g. the WG draft pages will probably lead to a lot of fixing and polishing. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 15:06:58 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01032; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJnV-000325-U7; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:12:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaJRp-0000xK-IQ; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:50:33 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaIzF-0006Lp-LY for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:21:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24101 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob5.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.215] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJ51-000106-Ec for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:27:01 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob5.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:19:16 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB3JFtQY025096 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB3JKs6T017730 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.133]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I8500C54V2TB8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:20:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:20:52 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <868y8fbcwc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-id: <0I8500C56V2TB8@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTZaLY1XLzOrIVtTc+WNhZEgVRFBAABGrIg X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > (errors detected, see _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml-error-log_) > > I thought that any other possible warnings (non-XML-related) would be > published then, too. The arguments about peer pressure and whatnot > apply to them equally well, don't they? Agree _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 15:18:30 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02131; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJyg-0003PN-KC; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:24:31 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaJic-0001EL-1J; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:07:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaJSp-0001ld-Ka for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:51:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28925 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJYZ-0002M0-3J for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:57:35 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 320AD3807D; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:50:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2388737E54; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:50:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F37437E44; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:50:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaJSC-0002xI-IW; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:50:56 +0100 Message-ID: <41B0C3A0.30107@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:50:56 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <868y8fbcwc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <868y8fbcwc.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-03 4:49 pm stanislav shalunov said the following: > Larry Masinter writes: > >> (errors detected, see _draft-ietf-blah-bogey-02.xml-error-log_) > > I thought that any other possible warnings (non-XML-related) would be > published then, too. The arguments about peer pressure and whatnot > apply to them equally well, don't they? Makes sense to me. (and that's what I currently do with the idnits results on the draft status pages at http://ietf.levkowetz.com/drafts/ currently. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 15:18:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02175; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJyr-0003Q8-1n; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:24:42 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaJic-0001EV-9e; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:07:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaJT4-0001o0-KO for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:51:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28966 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:51:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaJYp-0002R3-3k for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:57:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8327F1CD7A5 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27178-09 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666EF1CD4DC for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:51:46 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Dec 2004 14:52:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Henrik Levkowetz writes: > In stage (b), we also accept other formats, including XML. It is > required that the XML can be converted to text by xml2rfc running > under the submission tool. In this phase, we do not require that > it is well-formed and validates, but we require that the submission > tool does validation and provide feedback, indicating the > validation errors found. We also provide a separate validation- > only page. What about making sure xml2rfc output matches the submitted plain text? I see a few ways of dealing with this issue. In all cases below, XML, if it is submitted, is required to be a working input to xml2rfc. 1. Always require plain text submission. Do not do any checks to make sure the XML version is related to the plain text version. 2. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, if submitted, converts with xml2rfc to exactly the same file as the submitted plain text. 3. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, if submitted, has the same metadata as the plain text version. 4. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, if submitted, has the same fuzzy checksums as the text file. (To avoid too much development work, the fuzzy checksums could be similar to those used by, e.g., spam detectors. Or they might be even more lax.) 5. Accept exactly one of plain text and XML. If XML is submitted, generate the published plain text from XML with xml2rfc. Personally, I most favor 5 [*] and least favor 1 and 2. I don't think there's a very large practical difference between 3 and 4. --Stas [*] If it is true that people often edit the plain text manually after generating it with xml2rfc or that many ways of converting XML to I-D format exist, then 3 or 4 should probably be used. I don't know if the antecedent of the preceding sentence is true. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education. -- G. B. Shaw _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 15:58:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA05888; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaKbU-0004mn-Ia; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:04:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaKN2-0007rG-5n; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:49:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaKJ9-0006BC-Ch for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:45:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04906 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.108]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaKOt-0004Jn-52 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:51:39 -0500 Received: by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B2FB23810D; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av1-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B98380D9; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0B037E49; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaKIZ-0005EJ-6w; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:45:02 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-03 8:52 pm stanislav shalunov said the following: > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > >> In stage (b), we also accept other formats, including XML. It is >> required that the XML can be converted to text by xml2rfc running >> under the submission tool. In this phase, we do not require that >> it is well-formed and validates, but we require that the submission >> tool does validation and provide feedback, indicating the >> validation errors found. We also provide a separate validation- >> only page. > > What about making sure xml2rfc output matches the submitted plain > text? I think there should be some kind of verification, but I'm undecided on which one of your options I'd prefer. > I see a few ways of dealing with this issue. In all cases below, XML, > if it is submitted, is required to be a working input to xml2rfc. > > 1. Always require plain text submission. Do not do any checks to make > sure the XML version is related to the plain text version. > > 2. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, > if submitted, converts with xml2rfc to exactly the same file as the > submitted plain text. > > 3. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, > if submitted, has the same metadata as the plain text version. > > 4. Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, > if submitted, has the same fuzzy checksums as the text file. (To > avoid too much development work, the fuzzy checksums could be > similar to those used by, e.g., spam detectors. Or they might be > even more lax.) > > 5. Accept exactly one of plain text and XML. If XML is submitted, > generate the published plain text from XML with xml2rfc. I'd add 3f.Always require plain text submission. Check that the optional XML, if submitted, has the same metadata as the plain text version. Require that a diff between the two has less than N% diffing lines. 6. Accept either plain text, plain text and XML, or XML only. If XML is submitted, a) process according to 1 above b) process according to 2 above c) process according to 3 above d) process according to 4 above e) process according to 5 above f) (NEW) Require that extracted metadata from text and xml agree, and require that a diff between the two has less than N% diffing lines. > Personally, I most favor 5 [*] and least favor 1 and 2. I don't think > there's a very large practical difference between 3 and 4. > > --Stas > > [*] If it is true that people often edit the plain text manually after > generating it with xml2rfc or that many ways of converting XML to > I-D format exist, then 3 or 4 should probably be used. I don't > know if the antecedent of the preceding sentence is true. > >From my experience, it's pretty usual with some slight fixup of the text after it comes out of xml2rfc. Some people post-process the table of contents, for instance, to make it look better. Others tweak the format of the line giving the draft name to have the name within "<" and ">". I've seen other minor tweaks, too. Out of all options above, I'd prefer (in order) 6f, 3f, 3, I believe. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 17:20:59 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11079; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaLtG-0006XB-BD; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:27:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaLat-0004pd-Ht; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:08:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaKvc-0002ZZ-2O for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:25:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08038 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaL1P-0005Uc-9c for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:31:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D394C1CD55D for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08619-08 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45EC1CD54E for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:25:21 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Dec 2004 16:25:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Henrik Levkowetz writes: > on 2004-12-03 8:52 pm stanislav shalunov said the following: > > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > >> In stage (b), we also accept other formats, including XML. [...] > > What about making sure xml2rfc output matches the submitted plain text? Option 6 seems to be buggy (allows XML only on input, then doesn't say what happens). 7. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. define fuzzy(x, y) if XML and xml2rfc fails then reject XML if XML and not plain text then generate plain text with xml2rfc else if XML and plain text then if metadata(plain text) != metadata(XML) \ or not fuzzy(xml2rfc(XML), plain text) then reject submission else {plain text and not XML. Do not use XML and proceed.} Then we need to define fuzzy(). Percentage of differing lines being below a threshold would work just as well as anything else to weed out unrelated documents. Weeding out versions that differ in a very minor way without weeding out valid manual edits seems to be a task that would require a human. If manual fixes are common, we need to get the human out of the loop, so we have to live with the small potential for disagreeing XML and plain text. Given that this potential remains by necessity, should we even bother comparing anything but metadata? Comparing metadata should exclude accidental submission of unrelated documents, should it not? 8. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. Generate plain text with xml2rfc if it isn't submitted. If both are submitted, ensure that metadata are the same in the two files. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 17:45:45 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14842; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:45:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaMH1-0007g8-FP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:51:49 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaLnM-0003iC-2x; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:20:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaLMB-0000iB-SC for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:52:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09694 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from exprod6ob7.obsmtp.com ([64.18.1.217] helo=psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaLRn-0005zK-4j for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:58:52 -0500 Received: from source ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob7.obsmtp.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:50:38 PST Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.251.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB3LlQQY003857; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) by inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB3LqP0v016045; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from MasinterT40 ([130.248.178.133]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I8600ILH23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com>; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:52:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:52:24 -0800 From: Larry Masinter Subject: RE: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting In-reply-to: <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> To: "'Henrik Levkowetz'" , "'stanislav shalunov'" Message-id: <0I8600ILI23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcTZetz8/Hyckq1gRWeS0geRNjWv/QABjOzw X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Accept either plain text, plain text and XML, or XML only. If XML only is submitted, generate plain text using xml2rfc. If both are submitted, perform a diff between the generated text (from xml2rfc) and the submitted plain text. Include, in the internet drafts index, a report on whether the metadata appears to be different (WARNING) and how many lines are different (if over 5%, use WARNING). This is a policy where we allow people to submit things that we think might be broken, but we make it clear. (By the way, Henrik: I think it would be more helpful in your page of interest drafts if you didn't have a [nits] link if there were no nits detected. Put [no nits] with no hyperlink in the index. -------------------------- Consider the possibility of adding another "round trip" when there are new significant warnings (see below for def). The round trip asks the author "The following warnings were detected for this draft, are you sure you want to submit it?" (or some similar wording), and waits for a confirmation before actually putting it into the internet drafts directory. A "new significant warning" consists of warnings that we consider significant (invalid XML, differing metadata, etc.) for New -00 drafts new versions of drafts, where there is an old version which didn't have significant warnings (this allows an author to ignore warnings once and have it stick). This is under the theory that we allow people to submit things that we think are broken, as long as they are aware that we think they're broken. Larry _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 18:18:26 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18948; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaMms-0000O8-5Z; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:24:30 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaML0-0004Ac-3P; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:55:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaM06-00012j-Jr for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:34:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12845 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaM5u-0006zh-AG for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:40:07 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 62BB237ECD; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:33:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av3-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5035737E63; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:33:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E3337E43; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:33:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaLzY-00075G-KH; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:33:32 +0100 Message-ID: <41B0E9BC.6030703@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:33:32 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8600ILI23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> In-Reply-To: <0I8600ILI23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-03 10:52 pm Larry Masinter said the following: > Accept either plain text, plain text and XML, or XML only. > > If XML only is submitted, generate plain text using xml2rfc. > If both are submitted, perform a diff between the generated > text (from xml2rfc) and the submitted plain text. > Include, in the internet drafts index, a report on whether > the metadata appears to be different (WARNING) and how > many lines are different (if over 5%, use WARNING). > > This is a policy where we allow people to submit things > that we think might be broken, but we make it clear. Right, it seems we're in agreement here > (By the way, Henrik: I think it would be more helpful > in your page of interest drafts if you didn't have a > [nits] link if there were no nits detected. Put [no nits] > with no hyperlink in the index. Good point. I've changed the [nits] to [no nits] when there are no nits - but it can still be of interest to see which version of the checker generated the report, and what it said, so I'm keeping a link to the report. > -------------------------- > > Consider the possibility of adding another "round trip" > when there are new significant warnings (see below for def). > The round trip asks the author "The following warnings > were detected for this draft, are you sure you want to > submit it?" (or some similar wording), and waits for > a confirmation before actually putting it into the internet > drafts directory. > > A "new significant warning" consists of warnings that > we consider significant (invalid XML, differing metadata, etc.) > for > New -00 drafts > new versions of drafts, where there is an old version > which didn't have significant warnings (this allows > an author to ignore warnings once and have it stick). > > This is under the theory that we allow people to submit > things that we think are broken, as long as they are aware > that we think they're broken. Yes, this is nice. It adds a little added cost for submitting something which is broken, and it also permits becoming gradually stricter over time, and have that communicated back to the authors. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 18:20:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19189; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaMow-0000Qu-LG; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:26:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaMLm-0005Mv-6H; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:56:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaMBk-0007Hd-RJ for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:46:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14918 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaMHY-0007gF-M0 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:52:10 -0500 Received: by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 810A437F8F; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:45:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av1-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7358537EAD; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:45:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EBA37E43; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:45:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaMBE-0007KX-6f; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:45:36 +0100 Message-ID: <41B0EC8F.1000903@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:45:35 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-03 10:25 pm stanislav shalunov said the following: > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > >> on 2004-12-03 8:52 pm stanislav shalunov said the following: >> > Henrik Levkowetz writes: >> >> In stage (b), we also accept other formats, including XML. [...] >> > What about making sure xml2rfc output matches the submitted plain text? > > Option 6 seems to be buggy (allows XML only on input, then doesn't say > what happens). Eh? 6 had 6 different sub-options, and this is definitely not true of all of them. > 7. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. > define fuzzy(x, y) > if XML and xml2rfc fails then reject XML > if XML and not plain text then generate plain text with xml2rfc > else if XML and plain text then > if metadata(plain text) != metadata(XML) \ > or not fuzzy(xml2rfc(XML), plain text) then > reject submission > else {plain text and not XML. Do not use XML and proceed.} This in my understanding matches my 6.f for a particular definition of fuzzy(x, y): $(diff -C0 x y | wc -l) is greater than N% of $(wc -l x) > Then we need to define fuzzy(). Percentage of differing lines being > below a threshold would work just as well as anything else to weed out > unrelated documents. Weeding out versions that differ in a very minor > way without weeding out valid manual edits seems to be a task that > would require a human. If manual fixes are common, we need to get the > human out of the loop, so we have to live with the small potential for > disagreeing XML and plain text. > > Given that this potential remains by necessity, should we even bother > comparing anything but metadata? Comparing metadata should exclude > accidental submission of unrelated documents, should it not? I'd say we could use this criterium, and let a human (the secretariat) handle cases where the diff was too large, but the author maintained that the XML and text belonged together. > 8. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. Generate plain text > with xml2rfc if it isn't submitted. If both are submitted, ensure > that metadata are the same in the two files. I could go with this too, although I'd prefer 7 / 6f . Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 18:50:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21092; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaNIE-00011Y-QZ; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:56:55 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaN3d-0005Cu-Sy; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:41:49 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaMxr-0003IB-L0 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:35:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20306 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaN3g-0000jE-77 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:41:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568BD1CD7A4; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23549-05; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391581CD763; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:35:49 -0500 (EST) To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0EC8F.1000903@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Dec 2004 18:36:17 -0500 In-Reply-To: <41B0EC8F.1000903@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <86pt1rq7im.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Henrik Levkowetz writes: > > Option 6 seems to be buggy (allows XML only on input, then doesn't say > > what happens). > > Eh? 6 had 6 different sub-options, and this is definitely not true > of all of them. OK, 6e will work. That still leaves 6 buggy. Let's not quibble. > This [option 7] in my understanding matches my 6.f for a particular > definition Yes. (Or, rather, matches the intent of 6f -- I tried to reformulate 6f to be unambiguous.) _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 19:00:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21655; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaNRC-0001EZ-DD; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:06:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaN3h-0005Dn-KL; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:41:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaN1h-0004DC-2z for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:39:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20459 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaN7V-0000nB-J1 for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:45:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652861CD7AF for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23771-06 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C631CD7A4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:39:46 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8600ILI23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0E9BC.6030703@levkowetz.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 03 Dec 2004 18:40:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: <41B0E9BC.6030703@levkowetz.com> Message-ID: <86llcfq7c1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Henrik Levkowetz writes: > [an extra round-trip for serious warnings] also permits becoming > gradually stricter over time [...] In what way? Incrementing the number of round-trips each month? (You're being humorous, right?) _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 3 20:07:51 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26464; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaOUk-0002Zz-31; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:13:55 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaO4E-00029e-PQ; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:46:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CaNv2-0007Sn-9D for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:37:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24199 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CaO0r-0001td-Ad for tools-team@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:43:02 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9118337E7E; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 01:36:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.163]) by av9-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8305637E51; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 01:36:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720AB37E43; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 01:36:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaNuV-0002cw-4p; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:36:27 +0100 Message-ID: <41B1068B.7070307@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:36:27 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stanislav shalunov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I8600ILI23CGV@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0E9BC.6030703@levkowetz.com> <86llcfq7c1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <86llcfq7c1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 2004-12-04 12:40 am stanislav shalunov said the following: > Henrik Levkowetz writes: > >> [an extra round-trip for serious warnings] also permits becoming >> gradually stricter over time [...] > > In what way? Incrementing the number of round-trips each month? > (You're being humorous, right?) :-) No, I actually meant that as time goes on, and conformance levels rise, it is possible to change what is considered 'serious warnings' so that we raise the bar, and gradually approach the point where we can go to full validation required for acceptance. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 6 00:58:02 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16994; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CbBz8-0001R6-Tl; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:04:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CbBhq-0000zr-Dj; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:46:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CbBZr-0007WE-KX for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:38:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15042 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CbBg9-00012u-TP for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:44:58 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iB65cPJ2095983 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:38:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iB65cPme095982; Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:38:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:38:25 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041205223325.A92670@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [Tools-team] Regrets for Dec 8th X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Hi, I will be on travel next week and most likely will not be able to participate in the conference call. Sorry. I will do my best to read/digest all opinions regarding XML validity sent so far and post the next version of the draft while traveling. Alex. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 8 11:32:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12189; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cc4qp-0001Yq-Jw; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:39:39 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cc4bC-0002Yh-6S; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:23:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cc4Qv-0008Tt-La for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:12:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09965 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cc4Xj-0000xZ-Af for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:19:55 -0500 Received: by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9671037E4A; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:12:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.178]) by av4-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8541737E42 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:12:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E4B3800F for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:12:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cc4QM-0002Aq-61 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:12:18 +0100 Message-ID: <41B727E1.8040808@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:12:17 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 8 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 6. Action item review. * Henrik: Talk to Donald. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Henrik: Submit changed charter to Harald. * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 7. Any other business. 8. Action items for next week 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 15 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialling: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 8 12:39:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17213; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cc5tx-00034s-6b; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:46:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cc5fU-00045b-Px; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:32:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cc5VG-0001fO-Mx for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:21:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15766 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cc5c3-0002dK-LV for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:28:29 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4B0A637E76; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:20:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0A637E45 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:20:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2403801E for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:20:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cc5Ug-0004iv-T8 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:20:50 +0100 Message-ID: <41B737F2.2000603@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:20:50 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 8 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 0. Present Stas, Bill, Henrik 1. Agenda bashing None 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft No new draft from Alex yet. 6. Action item review. * Henrik: Talk to Donald. Has tried to get in contact with Donald, but no success yet * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. No time yet, but that was expected :-) * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. - * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. - * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready n/a * Henrik: Submit changed charter to Harald. Done * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements - 7. Any other business. There's a new page for proposed Meta information at http://tools.ietf.org/wiki/MetaInformation. My thoughts was to add Relax NG specifications for each of the items, and eventually put together a draft which should provide a (hopefully) complete list of metadata and xml structure to go along with that. 8. Action items for next week * Henrik: Talk to Donald. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 15 Dec, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialling: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 10:27:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08444; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CebCL-0000BU-4N; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:36:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ceb02-0006BM-5v; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:23:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CeaoF-0001wI-6r for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:11:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06747 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeawS-00088X-Nc for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:19:53 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4679737E76; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.182]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382E737E49 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2495C37E50 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ceanb-0007WX-7F for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:10:43 +0100 Message-ID: <41C053F3.5080706@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:10:43 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 15 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 1. Agenda bashing 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft 6. Action item review. * Henrik: Talk to Donald. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements 7. Action items for next meeting 8. Any other business. 9. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 5 Jan, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialling: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 13:10:05 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23977; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CedjW-00059p-3O; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:18:42 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CedFb-0005CN-SR; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:47:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CedCu-0003IG-JW for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:45:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21340 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CedLA-00047a-VB for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:53:33 -0500 Received: by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6C74937E91; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:44:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.177]) by av3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B29A37E4C for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:44:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp1-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474E13800E for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:44:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CedCK-0003DW-Vi for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:44:25 +0100 Message-ID: <41C077F8.5080003@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:44:24 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-team] Minutes from the 15 December 2004 Telechat X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here are the minutes from today's meeting. --------------------------------------------------------- 0. Present Alex, Stas, Bill. Henrik briefly sketched an idea of basing an issue tracker for IETF use on a mail archive software, with the added possibility of marking individual messages as part of one or more issues; this way a lot of the cutting and pasting or editing and re- mailing which has to be done with other issue trackers ( e.g., Roundup and RT) would go away, and the effort of doing issue tracking would become much less burdensome. This would be appropriate for the IETF in particular, because discussion relevant to issues should be on the mailing list, anyway. Alex believed that it would not be a good idea, the benefits would be a minor thing and there are many other sides to an issue tracker which are more important. An appropriate tool would be more like a MUA than a web interface. Bill mentioned that you could use the mail interface to RT to do cutting and editing, and then bounce the message to RT, instead of having to paste it in. 1. Agenda bashing None 2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference. None 3. Status of I-D submission tool draft Unable to work on the draft previous weeks. Should be done in a week, though. 4. Action item review. * Henrik: Talk to Donald. Done. Donald had expected the tools team to be more about implementation than requirements specification. One suggestion put to him was that doing a prototype implementation would be one way of specifying a scheduling tool. No response to this suggestion at this time. Donald also indicated that would be attending today, but it seems he couldn't make it. * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft middle of December. Had hoped to have -00 version of Notification draft by now, but unfortunately a lot of other things intervened. Will try to have a -00 by next week. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements First draft by Mon. December 6th. Same as for the I-D submission tool - no time to work on this the last weeks. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. As above * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready N/a * Donald: Start looking at WG Meeting Scheduler Requirements - 5. Action items for next meeting * Stas: Start looking at Notification Service Requirements. First draft by Wed. December 22nd. * Alex: Continue thinking about Draft Status Page Requirements. First draft by Wed. December 22nd. Same as for the I-D submission tool - no time to work on this the last weeks. * Alex: Summarize draft-submission comments to the list, update draft to be ready for submission for publication. * Henrik: Submit draft-submission draft for publication when it's ready 6. Any other business. Nothing 7. Next meeting: Teleconference Wednesday 5 Jan, 17:00 GMT (same local time as today). --------------------------------------------------------- Connection details: To join the call, dial +1-734-531-0125 and enter PIN 0151989. One can also join the call by dialling: sip:session_0151989@edial.internet2.edu on a SIP-enabled voice communications client. If the SIP client cannot dial URLs, you can have the conference system call you if you have the sip URL for your phone. Go to https://edial.internet2.edu/call/0151989 and type in the URL to your phone, and follow the directions. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 13:17:43 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24616; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cedqs-0005NB-KE; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:26:19 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CedbT-0005r8-8x; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:10:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CedLG-00016B-Fp for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:53:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22436 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CedTW-0004Zu-Am for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:02:11 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FA1A7ADE; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iBFHr6w22972; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:53:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200412151753.iBFHr6w22972@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 15 December 2004 Telechat Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:53:05 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 I'm sorry that I had to leave. Last week it was cleaning the ditch, this week it was a delivery - "normal" size delivery trucks can't make it around our road and have to back up. He didn't believe me so he got stuck. "Rustic country living". Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 14:37:01 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01671; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cef5c-0007gG-37; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:45:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CeewK-00022I-5T; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:36:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ceeh0-0006Ow-19 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:20:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29772 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net ([81.228.11.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeepF-00079n-HU for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:28:43 -0500 Received: by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id CD43737E7F; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:19:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8E137E58; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:19:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEED437E43; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:19:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeegP-00015L-Fg; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:19:33 +0100 Message-ID: <41C08E44.7040904@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:19:32 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Agenda for the 15 December 2004 Telechat References: <200412151753.iBFHr6w22972@windsor.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200412151753.iBFHr6w22972@windsor.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, these things happen. Hope you are enjoying the benefits of the rustic country living, not only the troubles ,:-) Henrik on 2004-12-15 6:53 pm Bill Fenner said the following: > I'm sorry that I had to leave. Last week it was cleaning the ditch, > this week it was a delivery - "normal" size delivery trucks can't make > it around our road and have to back up. He didn't believe me so he > got stuck. "Rustic country living". _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 19:17:53 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04005; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CejTV-0008Fp-6O; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:26:33 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CejK8-0006LJ-3G; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:16:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CejIo-0005uF-Hd for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03781 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CejR8-0008AY-HN for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:24:07 -0500 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBG0FKJ2083357 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:15:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:15:19 -0700 To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 2004/12/03 (MST), wrote: > Given that this potential remains by necessity, should we even bother > comparing anything but metadata? Comparing metadata should exclude > accidental submission of unrelated documents, should it not? > > 8. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. Generate plain text > with xml2rfc if it isn't submitted. If both are submitted, ensure > that metadata are the same in the two files. I am not sure whether it is funny or sad, but the above resolution is exactly what the ID Submission draft version 06 already documents: The Check action preprocesses XML draft source (if any), generates plain text format (if needed, see R70), stores submitted draft (all formats) in the staging area, and then extracts meta-data and validates each format (R6/a). ... It is an error to submit a draft which has neither plain text nor XML sources format (R68/a). XML source is acceptable without accompanying plain text only if the Toolset successfully generates a draft in plain text format from the XML source, as a part of the processing step documented below (R69/b). ... All available meta-data entries must match across all submitted draft formats (R18/a). For example, if the interpreter managed to extract draft title from plain text and PDF format, both titles must match. This requirement prevents accidental submission of mismatching formats. I will add a requirement to generate a warning (and, eventually, a complete diff) when the produced plain text does not match the submitted one (even if metadata matches). I will also add a stage-3 suggestion to add a smart fuzzy match function to compare texts, but I hope that by the time we get to stage 3, there will not be enough plain text submissions to worry about them. Thank you, Alex. P.S. Note that xml2rfc changes relatively often, without stable/development categories for releases. The Secretariat would have to deal with upset folks that use the latest and greatest xml2rfc only to get warnings from the submission tool. The tool might even try a few recent xml2rfc versions when comparing with plain text. This is not a big deal, of course, and I do not think we have to document it. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 15 20:42:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10211; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cekmz-0001pE-Jb; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:50:46 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CekZr-0004jA-1v; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:37:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CekPp-0003Ex-9D for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:26:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08938 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CekY8-0001RV-TI for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:35:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBEC1CD5B6 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07296-02 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A261CD55E for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:26:44 -0500 (EST) To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 15 Dec 2004 20:26:42 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86k6rjqbhp.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 "Alex Rousskov" writes: > On Fri, 2004/12/03 (MST), wrote: > > > 8. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. Generate plain text > > with xml2rfc if it isn't submitted. If both are submitted, ensure > > that metadata are the same in the two files. > > [T]he above resolution is exactly what the ID Submission draft > version 06 already documents: If Henrik is OK with it, it works for me. > P.S. Note that xml2rfc changes relatively often, without > stable/development categories for releases. The Secretariat would have > to deal with upset folks that use the latest and greatest xml2rfc > only to get warnings from the submission tool. The tool might even > try a few recent xml2rfc versions when comparing with plain > text. This is not a big deal, of course, and I do not think we have > to document it. I think that's a trick useful enough to document in the draft as a suggestion for the implementor. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 16 00:28:08 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07096; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeoJm-000721-LI; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:36:50 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ceo9S-0002Np-09; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:26:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ceo8Q-00029i-A3 for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:25:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA06860 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net ([81.228.10.109]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeoGn-0006w8-0d for tools-team@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:33:45 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 932D537E65; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:24:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net [81.228.10.183]) by av7-2-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F0B37E49; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:24:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (h195n1fls311o871.telia.com [213.64.174.195]) by smtp2-1-sn4.m-sp.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A3137E48; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:24:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ceo7r-0004LV-PF; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:24:31 +0100 Message-ID: <41C11C0E.4060402@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:24:30 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Macintosh/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Rousskov Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, on 2004-12-16 1:15 am Alex Rousskov said the following: > On Fri, 2004/12/03 (MST), wrote: > >> Given that this potential remains by necessity, should we even bother >> comparing anything but metadata? Comparing metadata should exclude >> accidental submission of unrelated documents, should it not? >> >> 8. Accept at least one of XML and plain text. Generate plain text >> with xml2rfc if it isn't submitted. If both are submitted, ensure >> that metadata are the same in the two files. > > I am not sure whether it is funny or sad, but the above resolution is > exactly what the ID Submission draft version 06 already documents: Oh, I think it indicates that we can come to similar conclusions by different roads, which is good :-) ... > I will add a requirement to generate a warning (and, eventually, a > complete diff) when the produced plain text does not match the submitted > one (even if metadata matches). I will also add a stage-3 suggestion to > add a smart fuzzy match function to compare texts, but I hope that by the > time we get to stage 3, there will not be enough plain text submissions to > worry about them. Sounds good to me. ... > P.S. Note that xml2rfc changes relatively often, without > stable/development categories for releases. The Secretariat would have to > deal with upset folks that use the latest and greatest xml2rfc only to get > warnings from the submission tool. The tool might even try a few recent > xml2rfc versions when comparing with plain text. This is not a big deal, > of course, and I do not think we have to document it. I agree with Stas' comment about this being worth an implementation note. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 20 14:29:49 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26247; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CgTNP-00011V-Av; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:39:28 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CgTBd-0003JZ-B8; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:27:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CgT5W-0002Z8-4Z for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:20:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24582 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] helo=mail-white.research.att.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CgTEl-0000is-56 for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:35 -0500 Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A998A7B05 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.5) id iBKJKLb20379; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200412201920.iBKJKLb20379@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] XML validity when submitting References: <0I85007T50ENKR@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> <41B0903F.9010002@levkowetz.com> <86acsvrwgg.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41B0D04E.6050405@levkowetz.com> <86u0r3qdk1.fsf@abel.internet2.edu> <41C11C0E.4060402@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:20:21 -0800 From: Bill Fenner Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.6d/makemail 2.10 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 I wrote the lamest little validity checker in the world, at http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/xml2rfc-valid/ I don't like xmllint's output, for example, /tmp/xml2rfc-valid.cgi.q8Sqckpd/draft.xml:961: element front: validity error : Element front content does not follow the DTD, expecting (title , author+ , date , area* , workgroup* , keyword* , abstract? , note*), got (title author ) could be much nicer as "missing required element 'date'"... I'm tossing over the idea of writing my own, since none of the validators I've seen really do well at this. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 22 01:00:38 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22828; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cgzhh-0002PF-KH; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:10:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CgzWU-00061m-Lh; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:58:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CgzS2-0004ef-AR; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:54:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22158; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CgzbP-0002DG-Tw; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:04:06 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM5s5J2045501; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:54:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iBM5s5Xt045500; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:54:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:54:05 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Message-ID: <20041221224347.D44914@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1238546020-1103694756=:44914" Content-ID: <20041221225324.Q44914@measurement-factory.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b224ddef3bbec83d0699fce07dca5f74 Cc: IETF Tools , Henrik Levkowetz Subject: [Tools-team] Request To Publish: draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-07 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37a917c66f49b3d51cc4840a2db325d7 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1238546020-1103694756=:44914 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-ID: <20041221225324.L44914@measurement-factory.com> Please post the attached draft-ietf-tools-draft-submission-07.txt file as a Tools team Internet-Draft. 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LCAyMDA1ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBbUGFnZSAzN10NCgwNCg== --0-1238546020-1103694756=:44914 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team --0-1238546020-1103694756=:44914-- From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 22 01:08:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA23290; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cgzp7-0002cC-A7; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:18:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Cgzas-0008V5-7u; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:03:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CgzZR-0007gy-6T for tools-team@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:02:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22942 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Cgzj3-0002SN-1b for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:11:57 -0500 Received: from measurement-factory.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM61xJ2046078 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:01:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Received: (from rousskov@localhost) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iBM61xfJ046077; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:01:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rousskov) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:01:59 -0700 (MST) From: Alex Rousskov To: IETF Tools Message-ID: <20041221225419.W44914@measurement-factory.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1784950892-1103695319=:44914" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f560cc438c8be83d0aa5c816c29b481c Subject: [Tools-team] ID Submission draft, version 6 versus 7 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dadeebe491e67c033a493fd3c7d6792b This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1784950892-1103695319=:44914 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi, I just sent version 7 of the ID Submission draft to the Secretariat. The RFC Editor-style diff (produced with Henrik's rfcdiff) is attached to this email. Here is the extracted change log: version 07 * Added R146, a requirement to generate a warning (and, eventually, a complete diff) when the produced plain text does not match the submitted one (even if metadata matches). * Added a stage-c suggestion R148 to add a smart fuzzy match function to compare submitted and generated-from-XML texts. Hinted at using multiple xml2rfc versions to avoid warnings based on minor xml2rfc differences alone. * Added R150 to eventually support submission of compressed drafts (via both web and email interfaces). Noted that the Secretariat currently does not accept "zip" archives. * Be explicit that CGI is not somehow mandated for server-side implementations. The implementor will pick the right technology given all the factors, including her experience and available tools (Henning Schulzrinne). * Added "opaqueness" to the list of web interface advantages, inspired by the number of folks complaining about their drafts being mutated by the mail system while in-transit to the draft archive. I hope this version resolves all outstanding issues and does not introduce new ones. Please let me know if any more changes are in order. Thank you, Alex. --0-1784950892-1103695319=:44914 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="diff-07.txt" Content-ID: <20041221230159.F44914@measurement-factory.com> Content-Description: abdiff.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="diff-07.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 DQpJTlRST0RVQ1RJT04sIHBhcmEuIDE6DQpPTEQ6DQoNCiBUb29scyB0ZWFt ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgQS4gUm91c3Nrb3YNCiBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgVGhlIE1lYXN1cmVtZW50IEZhY3Rv cnkNCiBFeHBpcmVzOiBBcHJpbCAyNSwgMjAwNSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE9jdG9iZXIgMjUsIDIwMDQNCg0KTkVXOg0KDQog VG9vbHMgdGVhbSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEEuIFJvdXNza292DQogSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFRoZSBNZWFzdXJl bWVudCBGYWN0b3J5DQogRXhwaXJlczogSnVuZSAyMiwgMjAwNSAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIERlY2VtYmVyIDIyLCAyMDA0DQoN 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