From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 02 10:40:27 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEpul-0005wH-2p; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:40:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEpuj-0005w9-T0; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:40:25 -0500 Received: from motgate8.mot.com ([129.188.136.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEpuh-0002oJ-JR; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:40:25 -0500 Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id k22Ftg8V029445; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 08:55:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com (ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com [10.14.33.5]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id k22Ftarn011554; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:55:36 -0600 (CST) Received: by ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:40:21 -0500 Message-ID: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF23810CF42AC7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> From: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 To: tools-team@ietf.org Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:40:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAQ= X-White-List-Member: TRUE X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 , Brian Carpenter , nomcom05@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-team] Web interface for feedback on candidates X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I'd like to provide some feedback on the web interface tool for feedback to the nomcom on candidates, which I used to comment on INT AD candidates this past nomcom cycle. Due to the nature of this interface, I provided poorer feedback than I have with previous nomcoms. In the past, when asked for feedback on candidates, I've generally prepared one email message. The preparation of this email message has never been linear for me. Commenting on one candidate makes me think of things that I had not mentioned about other candidates. In some cases, I decide to go back and comment on some aspect of all of the names I have been presented with after mentioning this aspect on some later candidates in the list when I had not mentioned it on earlier ones in my first pass. I'm sure having the tool split out comments by candidate, which I assume it does, is more convenient for the nomcom than getting aggregate text messages. But, if I am any guide, the nomcom is getting nicely sorted but inferior quality feedback. At an absolute minimum, the tool should display text telling the person providing feedback that they might find it better to compose all of their comments separately as one document and then cut and paste from their to the web tool. But, in fact, it gives no such hint and just sucks your comments one at a time into a black hole giving no feedback on who you have already commented on or what your comments were or that your submission succeeded. So you can't even glance at your previous comments in preparing later ones. In fact, the almost total lack of user feedback from the tool initially gave me the impression that it wasn't working. I had no positive confirmation that comments were accepted nor any idea what would happen if I provided comments twice on the same candidate. Would later ones override earlier ones or would they just be appended? There was no way to tell. And, in fact, to this day, I have no actual evidence that my comments got through. The right design would provide a commenter with simultaneous entry fields for all those they have been asked to comment on, allow them to repeatedly edit the various comments on the various candidates until they thought they were good (which would be the normal characteristic of an HTML FORM with multiple entry fields), and then, after special confirmation by the commenter, send them to the nomcom with a clear success message back to the commenter both on the web page and via email including a copy of their comments. There must be a clear statement of what happens if you comment again later, which I assume should be to append your later comments to your earlier comments. If I'm presented with this interface in the future, I sure hope I'll remember separately compose one document commenting on all the candidates and them cut and paste from the document into the multiple web forms... Donald ========================================================= Donald E. Eastlake III Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com Motorola Laboratories +1-508-786-7554 (work) 111 Locke Drive +1-508-634-2066 (home) Marlboro, MA 01752 USA _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 02 19:34:09 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEyFF-0001fb-3d; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 19:34:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEyFE-0001dd-1r; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 19:34:08 -0500 Received: from av6-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FEyFD-0000rX-Hk; Thu, 02 Mar 2006 19:34:08 -0500 Received: by av6-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7ECAE37EBD; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 01:34:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.102]) by av6-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DD537E6E; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 01:34:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4751D37E42; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 01:34:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FEyF5-0005Ws-Ck; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 01:33:59 +0100 Message-ID: <44078EF4.8060504@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:33:56 +0800 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Web interface for feedback on candidates References: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF23810CF42AC7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF23810CF42AC7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: Brian Carpenter , tools-team@ietf.org, nomcom05@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Hi Donald, These are good points. Together with the current and next nomcom chair I'll try to fix all of these except for the possibility of going back later to review what said. This is not possible without changing one fundamental characteristic of the system, which is that all comments are GPG encrypted with the nomcom public GPG key before being committed to disk in order to ensure that only nomcom will be able to read them. Regards, Henrik on 2006-03-02 23:40 Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 said the following: > Hi, > > I'd like to provide some feedback on the web interface tool for feedback to the nomcom on candidates, which I used to comment on INT AD candidates this past nomcom cycle. Due to the nature of this interface, I provided poorer feedback than I have with previous nomcoms. > > In the past, when asked for feedback on candidates, I've generally prepared one email message. The preparation of this email message has never been linear for me. Commenting on one candidate makes me think of things that I had not mentioned about other candidates. In some cases, I decide to go back and comment on some aspect of all of the names I have been presented with after mentioning this aspect on some later candidates in the list when I had not mentioned it on earlier ones in my first pass. > > I'm sure having the tool split out comments by candidate, which I assume it does, is more convenient for the nomcom than getting aggregate text messages. But, if I am any guide, the nomcom is getting nicely sorted but inferior quality feedback. > > At an absolute minimum, the tool should display text telling the person providing feedback that they might find it better to compose all of their comments separately as one document and then cut and paste from their to the web tool. But, in fact, it gives no such hint and just sucks your comments one at a time into a black hole giving no feedback on who you have already commented on or what your comments were or that your submission succeeded. So you can't even glance at your previous comments in preparing later ones. In fact, the almost total lack of user feedback from the tool initially gave me the impression that it wasn't working. I had no positive confirmation that comments were accepted nor any idea what would happen if I provided comments twice on the same candidate. Would later ones override earlier ones or would they just be appended? There was no way to tell. And, in fact, to this day, I have no actual evidence that my comments got through. > > The right design would provide a commenter with simultaneous entry fields for all those they have been asked to comment on, allow them to repeatedly edit the various comments on the various candidates until they thought they were good (which would be the normal characteristic of an HTML FORM with multiple entry fields), and then, after special confirmation by the commenter, send them to the nomcom with a clear success message back to the commenter both on the web page and via email including a copy of their comments. There must be a clear statement of what happens if you comment again later, which I assume should be to append your later comments to your earlier comments. > > If I'm presented with this interface in the future, I sure hope I'll remember separately compose one document commenting on all the candidates and them cut and paste from the document into the multiple web forms... > > Donald > > ========================================================= > Donald E. Eastlake III Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com > Motorola Laboratories +1-508-786-7554 (work) > 111 Locke Drive +1-508-634-2066 (home) > Marlboro, MA 01752 USA > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-team mailing list > Tools-team@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 03 02:50:19 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FF53K-0000bk-JH; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 02:50:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FF53I-0000Ww-OY; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 02:50:16 -0500 Received: from mtagate4.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.153]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FF53G-0000vy-61; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 02:50:16 -0500 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate4.de.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k237oDVV201236; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 07:50:13 GMT Received: from d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.212]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.8) with ESMTP id k237oU7t024432; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:50:30 +0100 Received: from d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k237oCpx016116; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:50:12 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k237oCGG016101; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:50:12 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-132-49.de.ibm.com [9.145.132.49]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA65096; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:50:11 +0100 Message-ID: <4407F531.1090106@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:50:09 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Web interface for feedback on candidates References: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF23810CF42AC7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> <44078EF4.8060504@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <44078EF4.8060504@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 , tools-team@ietf.org, nomcom05@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Henrik, The inability to see what one said is fundamentally annoying. After I was caught by this on the first round of feedback, I prepared all my comments on the second round in advance and saved to disk; but I *still* wish I had the comments from the first round. At the very least, they should be displayed unencrypted for confirmation, with an explicit warning that pressing the next button will render them into garbage. It made the job much, much harder than in previous years and makes it impossible to do intelligent follow up if something changes. Brian Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Donald, > > These are good points. Together with the current and next nomcom > chair I'll try to fix all of these except for the possibility of > going back later to review what said. This is not possible without > changing one fundamental characteristic of the system, which is that > all comments are GPG encrypted with the nomcom public GPG key before > being committed to disk in order to ensure that only nomcom will be > able to read them. > > Regards, > > Henrik > > on 2006-03-02 23:40 Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 said the following: > >>Hi, >> >>I'd like to provide some feedback on the web interface tool for feedback to the nomcom on candidates, which I used to comment on INT AD candidates this past nomcom cycle. Due to the nature of this interface, I provided poorer feedback than I have with previous nomcoms. >> >>In the past, when asked for feedback on candidates, I've generally prepared one email message. The preparation of this email message has never been linear for me. Commenting on one candidate makes me think of things that I had not mentioned about other candidates. In some cases, I decide to go back and comment on some aspect of all of the names I have been presented with after mentioning this aspect on some later candidates in the list when I had not mentioned it on earlier ones in my first pass. >> >>I'm sure having the tool split out comments by candidate, which I assume it does, is more convenient for the nomcom than getting aggregate text messages. But, if I am any guide, the nomcom is getting nicely sorted but inferior quality feedback. >> >>At an absolute minimum, the tool should display text telling the person providing feedback that they might find it better to compose all of their comments separately as one document and then cut and paste from their to the web tool. But, in fact, it gives no such hint and just sucks your comments one at a time into a black hole giving no feedback on who you have already commented on or what your comments were or that your submission succeeded. So you can't even glance at your previous comments in preparing later ones. In fact, the almost total lack of user feedback from the tool initially gave me the impression that it wasn't working. I had no positive confirmation that comments were accepted nor any idea what would happen if I provided comments twice on the same candidate. Would later ones override earlier ones or would they just be appended? There was no way to tell. And, in fact, to this day, I have no actual evidence that my comments got through. >> >>The right design would provide a commenter with simultaneous entry fields for all those they have been asked to comment on, allow them to repeatedly edit the various comments on the various candidates until they thought they were good (which would be the normal characteristic of an HTML FORM with multiple entry fields), and then, after special confirmation by the commenter, send them to the nomcom with a clear success message back to the commenter both on the web page and via email including a copy of their comments. There must be a clear statement of what happens if you comment again later, which I assume should be to append your later comments to your earlier comments. >> >>If I'm presented with this interface in the future, I sure hope I'll remember separately compose one document commenting on all the candidates and them cut and paste from the document into the multiple web forms... >> >>Donald >> >> ========================================================= >> Donald E. Eastlake III Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com >> Motorola Laboratories +1-508-786-7554 (work) >> 111 Locke Drive +1-508-634-2066 (home) >> Marlboro, MA 01752 USA >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Tools-team mailing list >>Tools-team@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team >> > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 03 15:38:50 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FFH34-0006nY-2h; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:38:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FFH33-0006nI-1I; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:38:49 -0500 Received: from av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FFH32-00041W-FX; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:38:49 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4C0A23837B; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 21:20:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.102]) by av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C828E37F35; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 21:20:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9450F37E42; Fri, 3 Mar 2006 21:38:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FFH30-0000wj-53; Fri, 03 Mar 2006 21:38:46 +0100 Message-ID: <4408A955.7040200@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 21:38:45 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Web interface for feedback on candidates References: <62173B970AE0A044AED8723C3BCF23810CF42AC7@ma19exm01.e6.bcs.mot.com> <44078EF4.8060504@levkowetz.com> <4407F531.1090106@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <4407F531.1090106@zurich.ibm.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 , tools-team@ietf.org, nomcom05@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Right, point taken. We'll have to work out some way of making this part of the NomCom feedback tool better. Henrik on 2006-03-03 08:50 Brian E Carpenter said the following: > Henrik, > > The inability to see what one said is fundamentally annoying. > After I was caught by this on the first round of feedback, > I prepared all my comments on the second round in advance and > saved to disk; but I *still* wish I had the comments from the > first round. At the very least, they should be displayed > unencrypted for confirmation, with an explicit warning that > pressing the next button will render them into garbage. > > It made the job much, much harder than in previous years and > makes it impossible to do intelligent follow up if something changes. > > Brian > > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi Donald, >> >> These are good points. Together with the current and next nomcom >> chair I'll try to fix all of these except for the possibility of >> going back later to review what said. This is not possible without >> changing one fundamental characteristic of the system, which is that >> all comments are GPG encrypted with the nomcom public GPG key before >> being committed to disk in order to ensure that only nomcom will be >> able to read them. >> >> Regards, >> >> Henrik >> >> on 2006-03-02 23:40 Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 said the following: >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I'd like to provide some feedback on the web interface tool for feedback to the nomcom on candidates, which I used to comment on INT AD candidates this past nomcom cycle. Due to the nature of this interface, I provided poorer feedback than I have with previous nomcoms. >>> >>>In the past, when asked for feedback on candidates, I've generally prepared one email message. The preparation of this email message has never been linear for me. Commenting on one candidate makes me think of things that I had not mentioned about other candidates. In some cases, I decide to go back and comment on some aspect of all of the names I have been presented with after mentioning this aspect on some later candidates in the list when I had not mentioned it on earlier ones in my first pass. >>> >>>I'm sure having the tool split out comments by candidate, which I assume it does, is more convenient for the nomcom than getting aggregate text messages. But, if I am any guide, the nomcom is getting nicely sorted but inferior quality feedback. >>> >>>At an absolute minimum, the tool should display text telling the person providing feedback that they might find it better to compose all of their comments separately as one document and then cut and paste from their to the web tool. But, in fact, it gives no such hint and just sucks your comments one at a time into a black hole giving no feedback on who you have already commented on or what your comments were or that your submission succeeded. So you can't even glance at your previous comments in preparing later ones. In fact, the almost total lack of user feedback from the tool initially gave me the impression that it wasn't working. I had no positive confirmation that comments were accepted nor any idea what would happen if I provided comments twice on the same candidate. Would later ones override earlier ones or would they just be appended? There was no way to tell. And, in fact, to this day, I have no actual evidence that my comments got through. >>> >>>The right design would provide a commenter with simultaneous entry fields for all those they have been asked to comment on, allow them to repeatedly edit the various comments on the various candidates until they thought they were good (which would be the normal characteristic of an HTML FORM with multiple entry fields), and then, after special confirmation by the commenter, send them to the nomcom with a clear success message back to the commenter both on the web page and via email including a copy of their comments. There must be a clear statement of what happens if you comment again later, which I assume should be to append your later comments to your earlier comments. >>> >>>If I'm presented with this interface in the future, I sure hope I'll remember separately compose one document commenting on all the candidates and them cut and paste from the document into the multiple web forms... >>> >>>Donald >>> >>> ========================================================= >>> Donald E. Eastlake III Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com >>> Motorola Laboratories +1-508-786-7554 (work) >>> 111 Locke Drive +1-508-634-2066 (home) >>> Marlboro, MA 01752 USA >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Tools-team mailing list >>>Tools-team@ietf.org >>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 06 16:29:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGNGb-0003Fb-Rl; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:29:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGNGZ-0003E1-Bv for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:29:19 -0500 Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info ([207.219.45.62] helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGNGW-0007ih-2p for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:29:19 -0500 Received: from roaming19.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.249]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1FGNGV-00030n-Cb for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:29:15 -0500 Received: by roaming19.int.libertyrms.com (Postfix, from userid 1019) id 8425318ED44; Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:28:39 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: tools-team@ietf.org Message-ID: <20060306212839.GM23906@afilias.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: andrew@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [Tools-team] Web site update proposal X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Sullivan List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Hello all, First, my apologies for not making the last two meetings. I've been dealing with the occasional emergency around here, and unfortunately, since my boss and I comprise the entire "team" at the moment in our little area, I haven't been able to say no. That said, I've managed to address (I think) Henrik's comments, and have updated the test site to cover the front page and the Overview section. Everything else is incomplete, but I think this gives at least an idea of how this can proceed. I have to say that editing all the pages is something of a pain in the neck. I think that, if NeuStar or whoever is going to do this with a minimum of fuss, they're going to need to write a little program to parse the existing pages, and strip off some of the presentation stuff and covert it to conformant xhtml. Alternatively, just running it through tidy does wonders. My experience with doing this while in no way engaged in webby type things makes me think, more than ever, that ultimately some sort of content management system is going to be the only answer. Any additional thoughts, &c., are welcome. We will not have, I'm sure, a complete demo site for the Dallas meeting, but I think there's enough here to show and tell. Do others agree? A -- ---- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada M2P 2A8 +1 416 646 3304 x4110 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 08 07:50:08 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGy7E-00015b-7E; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:50:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGy7C-0000zL-6Z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:50:06 -0500 Received: from av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.180]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGy7A-0008Fg-To for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:50:06 -0500 Received: by av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id CEE9138579; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:50:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.92]) by av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CFA37FAC for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:50:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12D737E4B for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:50:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FGy79-0005LI-8Q for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 13:50:03 +0100 Message-ID: <440ED2FB.8040200@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 13:50:03 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF TOOLS X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Subject: [Tools-team] Today's call cancelled X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Due to a scheduling conflict, today's tools-team call is cancelled. I guess I'll see at least Bill in Dallas - who else is coming? Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 08 08:28:37 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGyiT-0002HZ-Hx; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 08:28:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGyiS-0002D6-0z for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 08:28:36 -0500 Received: from av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FGyiR-0000uA-JZ for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 08:28:36 -0500 Received: by av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E66E8382E8; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:10:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av7-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EAD382EA; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:10:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C58737EE5; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:28:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FGyiO-0001Fv-PC; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:28:32 +0100 Message-ID: <440EDC00.8010604@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:28:32 +0100 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Web site update proposal References: <20060306212839.GM23906@afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <20060306212839.GM23906@afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Hi Andrew, on 2006-03-06 22:28 Andrew Sullivan said the following: > Hello all, > > First, my apologies for not making the last two meetings. I've been > dealing with the occasional emergency around here, and unfortunately, > since my boss and I comprise the entire "team" at the moment in our > little area, I haven't been able to say no. Yes. I know how it can be. > That said, I've managed to address (I think) Henrik's comments, and > have updated the test site to cover the front page and the Overview > section. Everything else is incomplete, but I think this gives at > least an idea of how this can proceed. Ok. I'd like the menubar to take up a bit less room; I've tweaked it a little bit - have a look at http://www1.tools.ietf.org/demo/www.ietf.org now and see what you think. > I have to say that editing all the pages is something of a pain in > the neck. I think that, if NeuStar or whoever is going to do this > with a minimum of fuss, they're going to need to write a little > program to parse the existing pages, and strip off some of the > presentation stuff and covert it to conformant xhtml. Alternatively, > just running it through tidy does wonders. Yes, and yes. > My experience with doing this while in no way engaged in webby type > things makes me think, more than ever, that ultimately some sort of > content management system is going to be the only answer. Well, I'm not so sure of that, still. But it's ultimately up to the maintainers, I'd say. > Any additional thoughts, &c., are welcome. We will not have, I'm > sure, a complete demo site for the Dallas meeting, but I think > there's enough here to show and tell. Do others agree? I think this is a good start. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 08 10:47:57 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0tJ-0001ZU-8y; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:47:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0tH-0001Yw-I4 for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:47:55 -0500 Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info ([207.219.45.62] helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0tG-0005yz-Av for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:47:55 -0500 Received: from [10.1.3.235] (helo=roaming5.int.libertyrms.com) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1FH0tF-0001Ci-BH; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:47:53 -0500 Received: by roaming5.int.libertyrms.com (Postfix, from userid 1019) id 6101018F2EB; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:47:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:47:27 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Web site update proposal Message-ID: <20060308154726.GB24545@afilias.info> References: <20060306212839.GM23906@afilias.info> <440EDC00.8010604@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <440EDC00.8010604@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: andrew@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Andrew Sullivan , tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Sullivan List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 02:28:32PM +0100, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Ok. I'd like the menubar to take up a bit less room; I've tweaked > it a little bit - have a look at http://www1.tools.ietf.org/demo/www.ietf.org > now and see what you think. Works for me. Probably the css needs to be bumped a touch to make the maincontent div line up a little better -- I noticed some jaggies while I was preparing this, in particular while resizing windows -- but that also seems to me to be the sort of cosmetic fiddling that the maintainers are going to want to do anyway. Thanks for your comments. A -- ---- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada M2P 2A8 +1 416 646 3304 x4110 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 08 10:54:16 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0zQ-0005UW-IG; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:54:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0zA-0005Pv-Jb for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:54:02 -0500 Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info ([207.219.45.62] helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FH0z9-0006GS-Cw for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:54:00 -0500 Received: from [10.1.3.235] (helo=roaming5.int.libertyrms.com) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1FH0z8-0001PC-SJ for tools-team@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:53:58 -0500 Received: by roaming5.int.libertyrms.com (Postfix, from userid 1019) id CC8A118F3B6; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:53:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:53:32 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: tools-team@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Today's call cancelled Message-ID: <20060308155332.GC24545@afilias.info> References: <440ED2FB.8040200@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <440ED2FB.8040200@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: andrew@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Sullivan List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 01:50:03PM +0100, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > Due to a scheduling conflict, today's tools-team call is > cancelled. > > I guess I'll see at least Bill in Dallas - who else is coming? I'll be there. I'll have to actually _run into_ you all this time, though. A -- ---- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada M2P 2A8 +1 416 646 3304 x4110 _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team From tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 20 15:44:00 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLREO-0004kF-89; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:44:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLREN-0004k5-9u for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:43:59 -0500 Received: from av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FLREM-0002I3-0E for tools-team@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:43:59 -0500 Received: by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id C6AE6383C9; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:43:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.93]) by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3235382C0; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:43:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-224-201-50-no45.tbcn.telia.com [81.224.201.50]) by smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FCB37E4C; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:43:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLREI-0002rS-0U; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:43:56 +0100 Message-ID: <441F1407.3070604@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:43:51 -0600 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [Tools-team] Today's call cancelled References: <440ED2FB.8040200@levkowetz.com> <20060308155332.GC24545@afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <20060308155332.GC24545@afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: tools-team@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-team@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and guidance during the development of software tools to support various parts of IETF activities." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-team-bounces@ietf.org Hi Andrew, on 2006-03-08 09:53 Andrew Sullivan said the following: > I'll be there. I'll have to actually _run into_ you all this time, > though. I plan to attend the end of the internet-area session (ending at 17:20) and then I'll be at Shim6. Look for the guy in vest and tie. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-team mailing list Tools-team@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team