From masinter@adobe.com Fri Mar 9 16:09:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD5C21F8527 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.862 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.862 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.753, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VgPOuQ+Tbpb3 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og117.obsmtp.com (exprod6og117.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C11021F8525 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob117.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1qby+wgEbfrQPpueZwqjSrYsw9By/CM@postini.com; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 16:09:48 PST Received: from inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (inner-relay-4.adobe.com [193.104.215.14]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2A07jJ0029751 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nacas01.corp.adobe.com (nacas01.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.99]) by inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id q2A09hPm029880 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nacas01.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.99]) with mapi; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:43 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:09:40 -0800 Thread-Topic: Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz+UhRtcMkLvUFWRlyJkXraHMWhLw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D06A8E5AA33nambxv01acorp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:09:49 -0000 --_000_C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D06A8E5AA33nambxv01acorp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering if anyone has created a conditional preprocessor for xml2rf= c where alternative content could be supplied for the .html and .html.pdf = editions of the document, even if the .txt version remains ASCII only and w= ith ASCII art, the .html version could be rendered with actual unicode char= acters. I'm not imagining automatic conversion, but just manually supplying alterna= tive in the .xml source. --_000_C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D06A8E5AA33nambxv01acorp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was wondering = if anyone has created a conditional preprocessor for xml2rfc where al= ternative content could be supplied for the .html and .html.pdf editions of= the document, even if the .txt version remains ASCII only and with ASCII a= rt, the .html version could be rendered with actual unicode characters.

I= ’m not imagining automatic conversion, but just manually supplying al= ternative in the .xml source.

= ;

= --_000_C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D06A8E5AA33nambxv01acorp_-- From nico@cryptonector.com Fri Mar 9 16:54:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DF221E8019 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.487, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38-BGVrsWXhi for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcbef.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056B021E8018 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFF626C05E for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=cryptonector.com; h=mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= cryptonector.com; b=SIEr9z+vyh1SXgBVplwM+m9qpeAmQ99JdmRhT0qWd9Sh kTUV2u52j85fGNmlUENUHH2f08O5Xj7jz/sJOnKdVu/bDZw0uKq9VOWZduK+/oja Ou/dSAzc/4vm68rjt3+9R0LOST27V+1ooHLcuh7ro04hx6E3+pRL+womqf6gMls= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=Ij3hZ8GRm3pcOrg3gS/q9zEsqVY=; b=cXEy9pKLroa 0VlOFXL0rVKa2mCfSrpv2rAAemOPRJ9Hz5xzFB9vdfU6O6/XdnrQv6qO8FWsYOQT FW+c2IAnSKlP/NPqUi6IATZJ/jQ/pHIENYwg+Nf1xtCi9K0DsPIAF4OJ7hx6QT9g eQr7iNzKma7HzzHsnZbfhLixcpK9cbAQ= Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com (mail-pz0-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7484426C00B for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by dakl33 with SMTP id l33so2264145dak.31 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.129.129 with SMTP id nw1mr7461870pbb.13.1331340859122; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.28.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:54:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 18:54:18 -0600 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Larry Masinter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:54:23 -0000 On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has created a conditional preprocessor for xml2= rfc > where =C2=A0alternative content could be supplied for the .html and .html= .pdf > editions of the document, even if the .txt version remains ASCII only and > with ASCII art, the .html version could be rendered with actual unicode > characters. I do hope at some point we switch to UTF-8 for .txt... Nico -- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Fri Mar 9 17:04:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1FC821E8053 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:04:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id voDW2OR2dkgp for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39C2C21E8019 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Mar 2012 01:04:15 -0000 Received: from p57A6D847.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.178.36]) [87.166.216.71] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 10 Mar 2012 02:04:15 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+5v/do+li5IwpFVsPnXqoe5yoqNi930uHWbyFgyn qAutNqODIV69uB Message-ID: <4F5AA88E.9070701@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 02:04:14 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 01:04:18 -0000 On 2012-03-10 01:09, Larry Masinter wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has created a conditional preprocessor for > xml2rfc where alternative content could be supplied for the .html and > .html.pdf editions of the document, even if the .txt version remains > ASCII only and with ASCII art, the .html version could be rendered with > actual unicode characters. > > I�m not imagining automatic conversion, but just manually supplying > alternative in the .xml source. > ... I haven't done that, but it would be an interesting experiment. If you have a sample in mind, I can put together an XSLT, or even integrate it into my existing XSLTs. Best regards, Julian From rra@stanford.edu Fri Mar 9 17:24:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CCE21E8019 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRx8xVJ4NGOR for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (smtp4.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.84]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289D421E8018 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A53521A544D for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89A4A1A5392 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6128B2F454; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: Russ Allbery To: "xml2rfc\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: (Nico Williams's message of "Fri, 9 Mar 2012 18:54:18 -0600") Organization: The Eyrie References:

User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 17:24:53 -0800 Message-ID: <87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 01:24:57 -0000 Nico Williams writes: > Larry Masinter wrote: >> I was wondering if anyone has created a conditional preprocessor for >> xml2rfc where =C2=A0alternative content could be supplied for the .html = and >> .html.pdf editions of the document, even if the .txt version remains >> ASCII only and with ASCII art, the .html version could be rendered with >> actual unicode characters. > I do hope at some point we switch to UTF-8 for .txt... Amen. It's quite frustrating to be required to misspell people's names. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 07:49:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33A121F8599 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.711, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZs4v10-b0n4 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og110.obsmtp.com (exprod6og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A9D21F851D for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob110.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1t4GWrKltOvDiT0zJ5/mGRHcwj2+A2c@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:47 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AFliJ0002609; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nahub01.corp.adobe.com (nahub01.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.97]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AFnjMM027467; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nahub01.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.97]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:45 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: Russ Allbery , "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:42 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz+XJ1v4aSemsNCSdGkwpAzCwSCBwAdqJUg Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 15:49:49 -0000 PiBJIGRvIGhvcGUgYXQgc29tZSBwb2ludCB3ZSBzd2l0Y2ggdG8gVVRGLTggZm9yIC50eHQuLi4N Cj4gQW1lbi4gIEl0J3MgcXVpdGUgZnJ1c3RyYXRpbmcgdG8gYmUgcmVxdWlyZWQgdG8gbWlzc3Bl bGwgcGVvcGxlJ3MgbmFtZXMuDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgcmVkdWNpbmcgdGhlICJmcnVzdHJh dGlvbiIgb2YgIm1pc3NwZWxsaW5nIiBwZW9wbGUncyBuYW1lcyBpcyBhIHN1ZmZpY2llbnQgbW90 aXZhdGlvbi4NCg0KVGhlIHJpc2tzIG9mIHN3aXRjaGluZyB0byBVVEYtOCBmb3IgLnR4dCBoYXZl IGNvbnNpZGVyYWJsZSBvdmVybGFwIHdpdGggdGhlIHNlY3VyaXR5IGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIGZv ciBJUklzIChhbmQgSUROKS4gVGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50IGlzIGZvciBnbG9iYWwgdHJhbnNjcmlh YmlsaXR5IC0tIHRoYXQgbm8gbWF0dGVyIHdoYXQgeW91ciBuYXR1cmFsIGxhbmd1YWdlIGNhcGFi aWxpdGllcyBhcmUsIHRoYXQgaWYgeW91IGFyZSBhYmxlIHRvIHJlYWQgdGhlIHRlY2huaWNhbCBj b250ZW50IG9mIGFuIFJGQywgeW91IGNhbiByZWFkIGFuZCB0cmFuc2NyaWJlIGl0Lg0KDQpNeSBv bmx5IGNvbmNlcm4gYXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCBpcyB0byBhbGxvdyBub24tbm9ybWF0aXZlIGV4YW1w bGVzIGFuZCBpbGx1c3RyYXRpb25zIHRvIGJlIG1vcmUgcmVhZGlseSBpbmNsdWRlZC4gIA0KDQpJ J20gcHV6emxpbmcgYWJvdXQgaG93IGV4dGVuc2l2ZSB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSBjaG9pY2UuLi4gd2hl dGhlciBpdCdzIGFuIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIGF0IHRoZSA8dD4gbGV2ZWw/IE9yIGV2ZW4gdG8gbWFr ZSBpdCBvbmx5IGFuIG9wdGlvbmFsIF9hZGRpdGlvbmFsXyBzZWN0aW9uLCBlLmcuLCB0aGUgSFRN TC9QREYgdmVyc2lvbiB3b3VsZCBpbmNsdWRlIGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgQVNDSUkgdGV4dCBidXQgbWln aHQgYWxzbyBjb250YWluIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgKFhIVE1MPyBPciBhIHZlcnkgcmVzdHJpY3RlZCBz dWJzZXQgb2YgWEhUTUwgdGFncz8gT3IgU1ZHIGRpYWdyYW1zPyBJbWFnZXM/KSBtYXJrdXAgdG8g YmUgaW5zZXJ0ZWQuDQoNCkxhcnJ5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiB4bWwycmZjLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzp4bWwycmZjLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBSdXNzIEFsbGJlcnkNClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgTWFyY2ggMDksIDIw MTIgNToyNSBQTQ0KVG86IHhtbDJyZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbeG1sMnJmY10g R2VuZXJhdGluZyBIVE1MIGFuZCBQREYgd2l0aCBVbmljb2RlIChhbmQgZGlhZ3JhbXM/KQ0KDQpO aWNvIFdpbGxpYW1zIDxuaWNvQGNyeXB0b25lY3Rvci5jb20+IHdyaXRlczoNCj4gTGFycnkgTWFz aW50ZXIgPG1hc2ludGVyQGFkb2JlLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4+IEkgd2FzIHdvbmRlcmluZyBp ZiBhbnlvbmUgaGFzIGNyZWF0ZWQgYSBjb25kaXRpb25hbCBwcmVwcm9jZXNzb3IgZm9yIA0KPj4g eG1sMnJmYyB3aGVyZSDCoGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIGNvbnRlbnQgY291bGQgYmUgc3VwcGxpZWQgZm9y IHRoZSAuaHRtbCANCj4+IGFuZCAuaHRtbC5wZGYgZWRpdGlvbnMgb2YgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50LCBl dmVuIGlmIHRoZSAudHh0IHZlcnNpb24gDQo+PiByZW1haW5zIEFTQ0lJIG9ubHkgYW5kIHdpdGgg QVNDSUkgYXJ0LCB0aGUgLmh0bWwgdmVyc2lvbiBjb3VsZCBiZSANCj4+IHJlbmRlcmVkIHdpdGgg YWN0dWFsIHVuaWNvZGUgY2hhcmFjdGVycy4NCg0KPiBJIGRvIGhvcGUgYXQgc29tZSBwb2ludCB3 ZSBzd2l0Y2ggdG8gVVRGLTggZm9yIC50eHQuLi4NCg0KQW1lbi4gIEl0J3MgcXVpdGUgZnJ1c3Ry YXRpbmcgdG8gYmUgcmVxdWlyZWQgdG8gbWlzc3BlbGwgcGVvcGxlJ3MgbmFtZXMuDQoNCi0tIA0K UnVzcyBBbGxiZXJ5IChycmFAc3RhbmZvcmQuZWR1KSAgICAgICAgICAgICA8aHR0cDovL3d3dy5l eXJpZS5vcmcvfmVhZ2xlLz4NCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQp4bWwycmZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KeG1sMnJmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby94bWwycmZjDQo= From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sat Mar 10 10:25:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7685B21F856C for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fA2hG8sSwZ7B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AAA121F8573 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Mar 2012 18:25:47 -0000 Received: from p57A6EDE8.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.178.36]) [87.166.237.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp029) with SMTP; 10 Mar 2012 19:25:47 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19WkfsvxoBWCdWAvtiUoglFxsqL77KmMC2JXF3ytn PA06armWT4qz0K Message-ID: <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:25:36 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:25:52 -0000 On 2012-03-10 16:49, Larry Masinter wrote: >> I do hope at some point we switch to UTF-8 for .txt... >> Amen. It's quite frustrating to be required to misspell people's names. > > I don't think reducing the "frustration" of "misspelling" people's names is a sufficient motivation. > > The risks of switching to UTF-8 for .txt have considerable overlap with the security considerations for IRIs (and IDN). The requirement is for global transcriability -- that no matter what your natural language capabilities are, that if you are able to read the technical content of an RFC, you can read and transcribe it. > > My only concern at this point is to allow non-normative examples and illustrations to be more readily included. > > I'm puzzling about how extensive to make the choice... whether it's an alternative at the level? Or even to make it only an optional _additional_ section, e.g., the HTML/PDF version would include all of the ASCII text but might also contain additional (XHTML? Or a very restricted subset of XHTML tags? Or SVG diagrams? Images?) markup to be inserted. > > Larry > ... Maybe we should start small, and look at your concrete use case. I'll assume it has to do with putting non-ASCII characters into IRI examples? Best regards, Julian From rra@stanford.edu Sat Mar 10 12:06:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B49521F855F for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rIE9YSyC+q1 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3E021F855B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AC90180D0 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21082805D for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E17222F454; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:05 -0800 (PST) From: Russ Allbery To: "xml2rfc\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: (Larry Masinter's message of "Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:49:42 -0800") Organization: The Eyrie References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:05 -0800 Message-ID: <8762eckyqa.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:06:12 -0000 Larry Masinter writes: > I don't think reducing the "frustration" of "misspelling" people's names > is a sufficient motivation. I don't really want to get into a long discussion of this, but I do want to say that I disagree that this is not sufficient motivation. Attribution in published work is important, and attribution should involve correctly spelling and representing people's names. I find it faintly embarassing to use a publication format that privileges English names over all of the other contributors around the world. I realize that this isn't completely unreasonable given that the publication language is English, and at the time there was no better alternative, but I think we have a better alternative now. But I read http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/help.html (Non-Latin Names) at an impressionable age. :) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 12:26:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E677221F84FC for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQEMf9ivejuA for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og108.obsmtp.com (exprod6og108.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F3321F8528 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com ([193.104.215.16]) by exprod6ob108.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1u49feQGEVc0GaQuZwS+HV1t9XHhur6@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:31 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (ms-exchange.macromedia.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AKQRN3008538; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nahub02.corp.adobe.com (nahub02.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.98]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AKQQMM029380; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nahub02.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.98]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:26 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: Russ Allbery , "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:26:23 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz++UF1QJeXnfWuS8ql4EHpqN6JDgAAQ0mg Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <8762eckyqa.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <8762eckyqa.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:26:33 -0000 Sorry, I was trying to have a technical discussion of requirements and use = cases, cost and benefit, not a political rant. Your quote: > I don't think reducing the "frustration" of "misspelling" people's=20 > names is a sufficient motivation. was taken completely out of context.=20 You said: "I don't really want to get into a long discussion of this" but you cannot misquote me and then refuse to discuss it. > but I do want to say that I disagree that this is not sufficient motivat= ion. The context you left out was essential. I said "Reducing pain authoring",= where said pain was caused by misspelling, is not "a sufficient reason" fo= r change Y. There are several factors in this evaluation: A: The pain is not eliminated. It is still necessary to misspell people's = names, since there is still a need to prepare an ASCII-only text file. B: The pain already occurs naturally for all names, since names are sometim= es misspelled. C: There are other related pains that might occur around embarrassment in c= ausing a publication In your reply, you calibrate your amount of embarrassment ("faintly") again= st a whole authoring policy for which you are not faintly responsible. If there are use cases for extending the repertoire of characters allowed i= n RFC publications, those use cases, and the costs and benefits, need to be= examined carefully. I'm not arguing against a policy of allowing unicode names, I'm arguing tha= t the policy needs to be carefully conditioned so as not to lose important = features of the current publication policy. But it does require you to acknowledge there are some features. Lest this be called off-topic:=20 this question is pretty central to the design of the xml2rfc I proposed of = allowing HTML generation to include unicode when TXT generation does not. From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 12:35:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8506521F8564 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:35:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHaAxZsym-Fu for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og117.obsmtp.com (exprod6og117.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF08621F8559 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob117.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1u66KBctqZzXe2ebMOEu8pVhPGTiYuQ@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:35:23 PST Received: from inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (inner-relay-4.adobe.com [193.104.215.14]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AKWiJ0009332; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nahub02.corp.adobe.com (nahub02.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.98]) by inner-relay-4.eur.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id q2AKYgPl024728; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nahub02.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.98]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:34:41 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: "julian.reschke@gmx.de" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:34:39 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz+6zuzlqTGUepDRtWegvIHc+XaYQAERP3g Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Adil Allawi \(adil@diwan.com\)" , "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Chris Weber , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:35:24 -0000 e3tUYWxraW5nIGFib3V0IGFsbG93aW5nIGEgY29uZGl0aW9uYWwtdXNlIGluIFhNTDJSRkMgd2hl cmUgeW91IGNvdWxkIHN1cHBseSB1bmljb2RlIHN0cmluZ3MgZm9yIHRoZSAuSFRNTCBhbmQgLlBE RiByZW5kZWlybmdzfX0NCg0KPiBNYXliZSB3ZSBzaG91bGQgc3RhcnQgc21hbGwsIGFuZCBsb29r IGF0IHlvdXIgY29uY3JldGUgdXNlIGNhc2UuDQo+IEknbGwgYXNzdW1lIGl0IGhhcyB0byBkbyB3 aXRoIHB1dHRpbmcgbm9uLUFTQ0lJIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgaW50byBJUkkgZXhhbXBsZXM/DQoNClll cy4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIHNldmVyYWwgZXhhbXBsZXMgd2hlcmUgYWNjZW50ZWQgcm9tYW4gY2hhcmFj dGVycyBJIHRoaW5rIHdvdWxkIGJlIG1vcmUgdXNlZnVsLCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHdoZW4gdGFsa2lu ZyBhYm91dCB1bmNvZGVkIGFuZCBjb2RlZCBmb3Jtcy4NClRha2UgdGhlIGZpcnN0IGV4YW1wbGUg b2Ygc2VjdGlvbiAzLjQuMS4gDQoNCiAgIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCB0aGUgSVJJDQogICAiaHR0cDov L3ImI3hFOTtzdW0mI3hFOTsuZXhhbXBsZS5vcmciDQogICB3aWxsIGJlIGNvbnZlcnRlZCB0bw0K ICAgImh0dHA6Ly9yJUMzJUE5c3VtJUMzJUE5LmV4YW1wbGUub3JnIi4NCg0KDQpCdXQgaW4gZmFj dCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyB3YXkgdG8gcHV0ICJhbiBJUkkiIGluIGFuIEludGVybmV0IGRyYWZ0LCBz aW5jZSAgaXQgaXMgYSBzZXF1ZW5jZSBvZiB1bmljb2RlIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMsIGFuZCB0byBnaXZl IGFuIGV4YW1wbGUgb2Ygb25lIGluIGFuIGFzY2lpLW9ubHkgZG9jdW1lbnQsIHlvdSBoYXZlIHRv IHVzZSBhbiBlbmNvZGVkIGZvcm0uDQoNClNpbmNlIEludGVybmV0IERyYWZ0cyBhbmQgUkZDcyBh bHJlYWR5IGFsbG93IHN1cHBseWluZyBhbmQgZGVsaXZlcmluZyBQREYsIHdlIHdvdWxkbid0IGhh dmUgdG8gY2hhbmdlIElFVEYgcG9saWN5IHRvIGdldCB0aGVzZSBleGFtcGxlcyBhY3R1YWxseSBs ZWdpYmxlIHRvIHRob3NlIHdobyBuZWVkIHRvIHJlYWQgYW5kIGludGVycHJldCB0aGVtLg0KDQoN Cg== From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Mar 10 12:43:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE93121F8549 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovxsRS7Vx+dk for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427AA21F84F8 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.20.30.101] (50-0-66-4.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.0.66.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2AKhhP2065492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Mar 2012 13:43:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:43:43 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> To: Larry Masinter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: xml2rfc list , public-i18n-core@w3.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:43:48 -0000 On Mar 10, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > Since Internet Drafts and RFCs already allow supplying and delivering = PDF, we wouldn't have to change IETF policy to get these examples = actually legible to those who need to read and interpret them. This is a discussion for rfc-interest, not for xml2rfc. If the RFC = Editor allows putting non-ASCII characters in RFCs, it is safe to assume = that the xml2rfc tool will be updated to allow that. If the RFC Editor = does not allow that, it makes little sense to allow it in Internet = Drafts that are intended to become RFCs. Just because you are punching from the side instead of going through the = top, that doesn't change the fact that you are re-opening the can of = worms. (I say this as someone who has advocated for what you want in the = past, doing so with Internet Drafts, not just questions on mailing = lists.) --Paul Hoffman From johnl@iecc.com Sat Mar 10 12:45:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECF521F85B1 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:45:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.621, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZzHiemTMkG15 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC5121F855B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69979 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2012 20:45:13 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2012 20:45:13 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=4f5bbd59.xn--9vv.k1203; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=/Q0X1LTf4akra0p4X4WCNVwwJor18uhvWlkuobFtiJc=; b=c9Ew1HKx4vG0A3/hPv1KRLLEoanIOqAR9Hv39OijpFiEOMiGYeOxp2CYOHh/rQc+9NftJCtfTI5b1yeJZfCk49ubyDgKpOHM5aG48YlEo91guDBo98wHXg2zXs6Y9XH9nvAtte3GTYXbYokKcTF3vCQSShYKnS1rkgViP/Kg2DU= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 10 Mar 2012 20:44:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20120310204451.51674.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:45:16 -0000 >> I do hope at some point we switch to UTF-8 for .txt... We certainly need to fix the character set problem at some point, but it seems to me that .txt files with UTF-8 mixed in would cause more problems than they solve since there's no way to tell from the outside that there's anything other than ASCII inside. We're having an informal session on future RFC formats in Paris, mostly to introduce the new RFC series editor to the swamp. See you all there. R's, John From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 14:01:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EED421F8540 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:01:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sXXOv9lga1UA for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og110.obsmtp.com (exprod6og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB7F21F8513 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com ([193.104.215.16]) by exprod6ob110.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1vPGnNr6fB3W75MC2PtUncEHETFaOBy@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:01:22 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1.adobe.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AM0tN3011002; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nahub01.corp.adobe.com (nahub01.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.97]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AM0sMM008994; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nahub01.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.97]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:00:54 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: Paul Hoffman Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:00:52 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz+/n1SXWQ/7vDTQ82WkiBWojO94gAClceg Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: xml2rfc list , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:01:23 -0000 I'm trying to solve a local problem of making the IRI internet drafts more = useful, through a change to (or a pre-processor for) xml2rfc. I do not wish= to open the "What formats are allowed for RFCs" can of worms, please stay = completely shut. The current policy, however, allows for PDF editions of RF= Cs. My only question is how to best accomplish, using xml2rfc, this limited= design goal. So no, this is *not* a discussion for rfc-interest, because I do not at all= wish to change the current policy, which I think allows everything I'd lik= e to accomplish. I'm *only* talking about how best to change xml2rfc to be useful in produci= ng submissions which are consistent with existing policy. Larry =20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hoffman [mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org]=20 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 12:44 PM To: Larry Masinter Cc: xml2rfc list; public-i18n-core@w3.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) On Mar 10, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > Since Internet Drafts and RFCs already allow supplying and delivering PDF= , we wouldn't have to change IETF policy to get these examples actually leg= ible to those who need to read and interpret them. This is a discussion for rfc-interest, not for xml2rfc. If the RFC Editor a= llows putting non-ASCII characters in RFCs, it is safe to assume that the x= ml2rfc tool will be updated to allow that. If the RFC Editor does not allow= that, it makes little sense to allow it in Internet Drafts that are intend= ed to become RFCs. Just because you are punching from the side instead of going through the to= p, that doesn't change the fact that you are re-opening the can of worms. (= I say this as someone who has advocated for what you want in the past, doin= g so with Internet Drafts, not just questions on mailing lists.) --Paul Hoffman From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sat Mar 10 14:09:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8439721F84B4 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9p3QRi7G2nv for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E96B21F84B2 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Mar 2012 22:09:28 -0000 Received: from p57A6EDE8.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.178.36]) [87.166.237.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 10 Mar 2012 23:09:28 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1809dVF1500ScaVoPTMgtnuDgx0oynYjOPjwgrcKP WIEcmWcenpfDGW Message-ID: <4F5BD113.30107@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:09:23 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: xml2rfc list , Paul Hoffman , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:09:30 -0000 On 2012-03-10 23:00, Larry Masinter wrote: > I'm trying to solve a local problem of making the IRI internet drafts more useful, through a change to (or a pre-processor for) xml2rfc. I do not wish to open the "What formats are allowed for RFCs" can of worms, please stay completely shut. The current policy, however, allows for PDF editions of RFCs. My only question is how to best accomplish, using xml2rfc, this limited design goal. > > So no, this is *not* a discussion for rfc-interest, because I do not at all wish to change the current policy, which I think allows everything I'd like to accomplish. > > I'm *only* talking about how best to change xml2rfc to be useful in producing submissions which are consistent with existing policy. > > Larry You could just use rfc2629.xslt and rfc2629toFop.xslt, which should work fine with non-ASCII characters. For "down-conversion" to the all-ASCII format we'd need a simple XSLT that strips or converts the examples. (Stripping will be easier :-) Best regards, Julian From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Mar 10 14:18:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA9D21F854B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:18:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.695 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.695 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stNqkxPk0Yrn for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FA121F8549 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.20.30.101] (50-0-66-4.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.0.66.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2AMIKsE067761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Mar 2012 15:18:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:18:20 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1CDD2C7A-D837-47A2-A45A-50D42C0BA4EE@vpnc.org> References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> To: Larry Masinter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: xml2rfc list , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:18:25 -0000 On Mar 10, 2012, at 2:00 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > I do not wish to open the "What formats are allowed for RFCs" can of = worms, please stay completely shut. The current policy, however, allows = for PDF editions of RFCs. Those two sentences do not belong together, much less in the same email. = "allows for PDF editions of RFCs" *is* part of the can of worms. PDF is = a document format. (I find it odd to be saying that to someone who works = for Adobe.) --Paul Hoffman From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 14:42:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C60E21F854B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GiKPYMkziG9e for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og102.obsmtp.com (exprod6og102.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D3021F8549 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com ([193.104.215.16]) by exprod6ob102.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1vYuqOYHLn7AHQSE4CwAKbJBHBczQ0j@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:26 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-2.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AMftN3011841; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nahub01.corp.adobe.com (nahub01.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.97]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AMfsMM012808; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:41:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nahub01.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.97]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:41:55 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: Paul Hoffman Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:41:53 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz/C7Zt3lKKa9dUTt2M6Gv1HjH2hQAAm8Hw Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> <1CDD2C7A-D837-47A2-A45A-50D42C0BA4EE@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <1CDD2C7A-D837-47A2-A45A-50D42C0BA4EE@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: xml2rfc list , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:42:27 -0000 Sorry, I thought RFC 2223 had been updated to allow PDF files as well as Po= stscript files. =20 " PDF is a document format. (I find it odd to be saying that to someone who= works for Adobe.)" I know better than most, and have for longer than I've worked for Adobe.=20 While the primary RFCs is always an ASCII text file, secondary or alternative versions of RFC may be provided in PostScript. This decision is motivated by the desire to include diagrams, drawings, and such in RFCs. PostScript documents (on paper only, so far) are visually more appealing and have better readability. I agree that the policy discussion doesn't belong on this mailing list, and= I'm trying to keep the topic restricted to "how to modify xml2rfc so that it is possible to produce documents which me= et the guidelines of RFC 2223". In particular, how to include Diagrams Drawings "and such" -- interpreting "and such" to include "Examples where prese= ntation of unicode strings in natural examples". From masinter@adobe.com Sat Mar 10 14:45:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46DB21F8523 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:45:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vz2uqoKtqL4 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og105.obsmtp.com (exprod6og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.189]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3709921F849A for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com ([192.150.11.134]) by exprod6ob105.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT1vZVaYX+W0yNvvHtDlzodhieV3xBvb1@postini.com; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:45:01 PST Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com ([153.32.1.51]) by outbound-smtp-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AMgaJ0012351; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nacas03.corp.adobe.com (nacas03.corp.adobe.com [10.8.189.121]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id q2AMiaMM012978; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.95]) by nacas03.corp.adobe.com ([10.8.189.121]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:44:36 -0800 From: Larry Masinter To: "julian.reschke@gmx.de" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:44:34 -0800 Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) Thread-Index: Acz/CnfRKhiTZ0k2TQ+n9cq+HQbBnAABKE0w Message-ID: References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> <4F5BD113.30107@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <4F5BD113.30107@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: xml2rfc list , Paul Hoffman , "public-i18n-core@w3.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:45:02 -0000 > You could just use rfc2629.xslt and rfc2629toFop.xslt, which should work = fine with non-ASCII characters. > For "down-conversion" to the all-ASCII format we'd need a simple XSLT tha= t strips or converts the examples. > (Stripping will be easier :-) I'm afraid that I don't believe "stripping" is sufficient. For an example t= o be useful, it needs to use explicit notation. The ASCII-only version need= s a *different* introductory section than the Unicode one, so I need a "alt= ernative selection" syntax and not a "strip one" selection process. =20 From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sat Mar 10 22:45:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCA521F864F for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:45:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.830, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TdEBD9JAhRd8 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02DF21F864D for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 22:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id q2B6jmAp018767 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:45:48 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 327c_9e29_d5c7d544_6b45_11e1_8056_001d096c5782; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:45:48 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52602) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:45:51 +0900 Message-ID: <4F5C4A1B.5050809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:45:47 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Masinter References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> <4F5BD113.30107@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "julian.reschke@gmx.de" , xml2rfc list , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 06:45:57 -0000 On 2012/03/11 7:44, Larry Masinter wrote: >> You could just use rfc2629.xslt and rfc2629toFop.xslt, which should work fine with non-ASCII characters. > >> For "down-conversion" to the all-ASCII format we'd need a simple XSLT that strips or converts the examples. > >> (Stripping will be easier :-) > > I'm afraid that I don't believe "stripping" is sufficient. For an example to be useful, it needs to use explicit notation. The ASCII-only version needs a *different* introductory section than the Unicode one, so I need a "alternative selection" syntax and not a "strip one" selection process. Alternatives can be achieved through stripping by either stripping one or another of two pieces. So that's not too difficult. I'll look at this technically after the upcoming submission deadline. Ideas for the name(s) of the element(s) are appreciated. Regards, Martin. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sat Mar 10 23:29:51 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2094D21F867E for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.796, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iif5O7wZEQ3r for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7150D21F85DD for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id q2B7Tfq7032569 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:29:42 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 327a_dad3_f71e5672_6b4b_11e1_81af_001d096c5782; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:29:40 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:55581) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:29:45 +0900 Message-ID: <4F5C5464.7060201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:29:40 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Levine References: <20120310204451.51674.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20120310204451.51674.qmail@joyce.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:29:51 -0000 On 2012/03/11 5:44, John Levine wrote: >>> I do hope at some point we switch to UTF-8 for .txt... > > We certainly need to fix the character set problem at some point, but > it seems to me that .txt files with UTF-8 mixed in would cause more > problems than they solve since there's no way to tell from the outside > that there's anything other than ASCII inside. Sorry, I don't understand this. There's certainly no way to tell from the outside of a .txt file that there's anything other than US-ASCII inside, but there is also no way to tell that there's anything other than UTF-8 inside, and so on. With respect to .txt files, ASCII isn't special in any way. Regards, Martin. From rra@stanford.edu Sat Mar 10 23:40:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B67921F8688 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.307, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMxIC1LbEzhT for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB7D21F858D for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CD49813A for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 088B0800F for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D86962F454; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:51 -0800 (PST) From: Russ Allbery To: xml2rfc@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4F5C5464.7060201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> ("Martin J. =?utf-8?Q?D?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=BCrst=22's?= message of "Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:29:40 +0900") Organization: The Eyrie References: <20120310204451.51674.qmail@joyce.lan> <4F5C5464.7060201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:40:51 -0800 Message-ID: <87d38jh9fg.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Generating HTML and PDF with Unicode (and diagrams?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:40:53 -0000 "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" writes: > Sorry, I don't understand this. There's certainly no way to tell from > the outside of a .txt file that there's anything other than US-ASCII > inside, but there is also no way to tell that there's anything other > than UTF-8 inside, and so on. With respect to .txt files, ASCII isn't > special in any way. There's a transition problem, in that RFC .txt files have always historically been ASCII. The maximally-conservative worry is that we have no idea where that information is embedded and what may be relying on it. The awkward but mostly backward-compatible thing to do would be to publish the text UTF-8 version as an additional format for the RFC (.utf8 or something) and continue to publish a .txt version that's ASCII-only (however one manages to mangle the UTF-8 characters to do so). I feel like that's probably overkill, but I can see the appeal in not breaking historical guarantees about the format of the RFC .txt files. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sun Mar 11 03:50:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684D821F85F6 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.783, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hnID0gLfhVL3 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 77FA021F8569 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 03:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 11 Mar 2012 10:50:07 -0000 Received: from p57A6EDE8.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.178.36]) [87.166.237.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp071) with SMTP; 11 Mar 2012 11:50:07 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19JzV9OCs5JWc/rwGbNDe2o9amlJjU0e3u+5LA8r3 7vClT/o7d6zL3p Message-ID: <4F5C8359.9070108@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:50:01 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= References:

<87r4x1nt7e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4F5B9CA0.5010507@gmx.de> <91106A17-573C-4893-A378-7411A18E281E@vpnc.org> <4F5BD113.30107@gmx.de> <4F5C4A1B.5050809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4F5C4A1B.5050809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: xml2rfc list , Paul Hoffman