From arusso@amsl.com Tue Oct 1 12:44:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B6821E81E9 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xmABZkLsI0FF for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.public.resource.org (cyclone.public.resource.org [192.101.98.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E434221F9B65 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [64.170.98.21]) by cyclone.public.resource.org (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r91Jf4Vp029839 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arusso@amsl.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541BAA60E2; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c9a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OAiPVtMZoKRX; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc2.home (pool-68-238-162-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net [68.238.162.118]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBCB4A60D7; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Alice Russo In-Reply-To: <524A3A3E.8090606@concordia.ca> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 15:40:57 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <648EA9D3-3A5C-48A9-8D09-61F0F6BC2470@amsl.com> References: <524A3A3E.8090606@concordia.ca> To: William Atwood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) Cc: xml2rfc Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Failure, probably when processing a "list" X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 19:44:00 -0000 FYI, this=20 "AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'strip'" appears to be = the same bug as reported here http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/187 and here http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/190 (where = the comments contain a potential patch). Also as reported by R. Raymond and P. Resnick: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xml2rfc/current/msg03906.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xml2rfc/current/msg03950.html Thanks, Alice On Sep 30, 2013, at 10:58 PM, William Atwood wrote: > I am attempting to build an Internet Draft from an xml file, using the > current web-based processor at xml.resource.org. >=20 > After resolving all of the citations, I get the error messages shown > below. A copy of the input file is available if needed. >=20 > Bill >=20 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >=20 > WARNING: No DTD given, defaulting to > /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/xml2rfc/templates/rfc2629.dtd > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/local/bin/xml2rfc", line 224, in > main() > File "/usr/local/bin/xml2rfc", line 209, in main > pagedwriter.write(filename) > File = "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/xml2rfc/writers/base.py", > line 1088, in write > self.post_rendering() > File > = "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/xml2rfc/writers/paginated_txt.py",= > line 286, in post_rendering > self.emit([''] * remainder) > File > = "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/xml2rfc/writers/paginated_txt.py",= > line 164, in emit > if self.page_length =3D=3D 1 and text.strip() =3D=3D '': > AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'strip' > --=20 > Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng. tel: +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046 > Distinguished Professor Emeritus fax: +1 (514) 848-2830 > Department of Computer Science > and Software Engineering > Concordia University EV 3.185 email:william.atwood@concordia.ca > 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill > Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8 > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc >=20 From leifj@mnt.se Tue Oct 1 16:09:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2611F0D57 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d7HryimKBHqr for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D601F0D07 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id c11so141557lbj.41 for ; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type; bh=c4M6/ssKeNmTd/lo64XTGYcM53NsFmDjlRsUoINovG0=; b=kn8YJQ2s/BYikSw4FRwJfls8vsDRxKt3nSDvw9ZCg0zFktvFdSkkM0cTFUDEeafsC/ 391AblRLwtjH/+7W8JDsoP59eXKDS9LXMSlgFFXfaqcv9vx/4HkuKC7GRnjH+Nk+jA6k H5uQwNqp2e0L8951qbMpSdWVTgECWCM/3qWAx6QOc8tko2DdgO7NgjBFFIjjbNbaUxRD hHV4Pz1R6x/MHiBctr3xWSQa8a8WeAyRdynCe59RV2Biv3RhafsimrcBC9DpfCIT7JBT x/1syoCyUJMoyoqFBJcPa0YJ0O+FD2CmkFTOqlGsRmP0piVAXK5G3BPW4TYc4vFLocHN RzfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncOxggamOMWSAZO312lueZYA4k9o/NnRLHbWinsGxIKd4hjyz2ry4BzKQ8+neN7A2UV5e0 X-Received: by 10.112.128.166 with SMTP id np6mr29217285lbb.7.1380668953217; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.244] (tb62-102-145-131.cust.teknikbyran.com. [62.102.145.131]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i3sm6919381laf.4.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <524B5615.1090200@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 01:09:09 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020409070603050405040106" Subject: [xml2rfc] patch for private memo xml2rfc X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 23:09:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020409070603050405040106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit support for the private PI in xml2rfc can be improved on, but its a start Cheers Leif --------------020409070603050405040106 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="private-rfc.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="private-rfc.patch" --- /tmp/base.py 2013-10-01 23:56:25.343161064 +0200 +++ writers/base.py 2013-10-02 00:52:04.000000000 +0200 @@ -523,24 +523,23 @@ """ Returns a lines of lines for the top left header """ lines = [] # Document stream / workgroup - if not self.pis['private']: - if self.draft: - workgroup = self.r.find('front/workgroup') - if workgroup is not None and workgroup.text: - lines.append(workgroup.text) - else: - lines.append(self.boilerplate['draft_workgroup']) + if self.draft: + workgroup = self.r.find('front/workgroup') + if workgroup is not None and workgroup.text: + lines.append(workgroup.text) else: - # Determine 'workgroup' from submissionType - subtype = self.r.attrib.get('submissionType', - self.defaults['submissionType']) - docstream = self.boilerplate['document_stream'].get(subtype) - lines.append(docstream) + lines.append(self.boilerplate['draft_workgroup']) + else: + # Determine 'workgroup' from submissionType + subtype = self.r.attrib.get('submissionType', + self.defaults['submissionType']) + docstream = self.boilerplate['document_stream'].get(subtype) + lines.append(docstream) # RFC number if not self.draft: lines.append('Request for Comments: ' + self.rfcnumber) - elif not self.pis['private']: + else: lines.append('Internet-Draft') # Series number @@ -570,7 +569,7 @@ xml2rfc.log.warn('No category specified for document.') # Expiration notice for drafts - if self.expire_string and not self.pis['private']: + if self.expire_string: lines.append('Expires: ' + self.expire_string) # ISSN identifier @@ -1005,15 +1004,14 @@ for t in note.findall('t'): self.write_t_rec(t) - if not self.pis['private']: - # Verify that 'ipr' attribute is valid before continuing - self._validate_ipr() + # Verify that 'ipr' attribute is valid before continuing + self._validate_ipr() - # "Status of this Memo" section - self.write_status_section() + # "Status of this Memo" section + self.write_status_section() - # Copyright section - self.write_copyright() + # Copyright section + self.write_copyright() # Insert the table of contents marker at this position toc_enabled = self.pis['toc'] --- /tmp/paginated_txt.py 2013-10-01 23:56:25.343161064 +0200 +++ writers/paginated_txt.py 2013-10-02 00:52:04.000000000 +0200 @@ -116,13 +116,10 @@ self.break_hints = {} self.heading_marks = {} - if self.pis['private']: - self.left_header = "" + if self.draft: + self.left_header = 'Internet-Draft' else: - if self.draft: - self.left_header = 'Internet-Draft' - else: - self.left_header = 'RFC %s' % self.r.attrib.get('number', '') + self.left_header = 'RFC %s' % self.r.attrib.get('number', '') title = self.r.find('front/title') if title is not None: self.center_header = title.attrib.get('abbrev', title.text) --------------020409070603050405040106-- From trac@tools.ietf.org Fri Oct 4 08:54:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6351D21F9E02 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6-7-0OrnpCe for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B1321F99E1 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57916 helo=grenache.tools.ietf.org ident=www-data) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VS7he-0002Iz-OG; Fri, 04 Oct 2013 17:54:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "xml2rfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: john-ietf@jck.com, arusso@amsl.com X-Trac-Project: xml2rfc Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:54:06 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/106#comment:2 Message-ID: <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 106 In-Reply-To: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: john-ietf@jck.com, arusso@amsl.com, rse@rfc-editor.org, sginoza@amsl.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:54:50 -0000 #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs Comment (by arusso@amsl.com): Suggestion below is from an email from John Klensin re: a vocabulary enhancement (an aggregate attribute) that would address * (i) this ticket: ability to list multiple RFCs within one reference, and * (ii) ability to use a different anchor than the one in the citation libary. {{{ It would allow the right thing to happen if, e.g., (i) were modified to allow an "aggregate='yes'" attribute so that, with that attribute turned on, &rfc3777; &rfc5633; &rfc5680; &rfc6859; would suppress the individual anchors on output but otherwise do the right thing. And (ii) without "aggregate='no'" (presumably the default for backwards compatibility reasons) would interpret &rfc5321; as suppressing the anchor in the citation file with the one specified. }}} -- ------------------------------+-------------------- Reporter: arusso@amsl.com | Owner: Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: medium | Milestone: Component: Version 2 cli | Version: 2.3.11 Resolution: | Keywords: ------------------------------+-------------------- Ticket URL: xml2rfc From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Fri Oct 4 09:07:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF5721F99E1 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xfhhyx1hLkZI for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F38521F9F2B for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r94G15VH021592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:01:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:01:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> To: xml2rfc issue tracker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: john-ietf@jck.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:07:26 -0000 This seems like a complex engineering solution. Wouldn't it be far = simpler to simply specify the way that the output of a citation to a = multi-RFC BCP should look like and make referring to that emit the = correct thing? --Paul Hoffman= From ietf@augustcellars.com Fri Oct 4 15:30:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A66621F9EAE for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q4rRbNagEZQu for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB1D21F9EA2 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Philemon (winery.augustcellars.com [206.212.239.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jimsch@nwlink.com) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2DDA638F4E; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Schaad" To: "'xml2rfc issue tracker'" References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIOhJSPIep6cuJhQRwKK4HHsgz84wKRv8lqAxwPYiSZOCpv8A== Content-Language: en-us Cc: john-ietf@jck.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:30:20 -0000 Making it part of the thing being cited also means that only one person needs to maintain it and I will not get it wrong for my document. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: xml2rfc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:xml2rfc-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Paul Hoffman > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 9:01 AM > To: xml2rfc issue tracker > Cc: john-ietf@jck.com; xml2rfc@ietf.org; sginoza@amsl.com > Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains > multiple RFCs > > This seems like a complex engineering solution. Wouldn't it be far simpler to > simply specify the way that the output of a citation to a multi-RFC BCP > should look like and make referring to that emit the correct thing? > > --Paul Hoffman > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Oct 4 15:33:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B4421F9396 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:33:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-o22+kq9ZbC for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05B321F93E4 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSDw4-000PcI-SZ; Fri, 04 Oct 2013 18:33:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 18:33:19 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Paul Hoffman , xml2rfc issue tracker Message-ID: <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:39:10 -0700 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:33:38 -0000 --On Friday, October 04, 2013 09:01 -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > This seems like a complex engineering solution. Wouldn't it be > far simpler to simply specify the way that the output of a > citation to a multi-RFC BCP should look like and make > referring to that emit the correct thing? If that were the only issue, I would agree completely. There is also no question that the "aggregate" attribute idea is a kludge (see below) However, not everything cited from an RFC is an RFC, STD, or BCP. We have other types of multiple reference citations that, to the degree to which the RFC Editor's future plans are dependent on metadata and direct production of RFCs from XML (rather than going through an nroff intermediary and tuning things there) need better and more explicit tagging than hiding information in and/or elements. The most obvious examples would be similar to articles in journals such as: [] Smith, J., "The obvious way to make the Internet go faster", Journal of Translight Physics, vol 10, 1 (April 2014), pp. 50-35. Articles or chapters in books: [] Einstein, M., "What's a little time between friends", in Wells, H., ed., Collected works of Albert's Smarter Brother, Ulm: Unlikely Publishing, 1878. including the dreaded cross reference within the references: [] Einstein, M., "The so-called time paradox or so what if it runs backwards", in Wells, H., op. cit. The "one citation, multiple sources" case, possibly mixed with some of the above: [] Dumpty, H., in Carroll, L., "Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There", Chapter 6, 1871. Reprinted in The Complete Works of Lewis Carroll 196 (1939) and in Gardiner, M., The Annotated Alice, New York: Clarkson N. Potter, 1960. And the multiple source one that is similar to the BCP case, but not identical (and that may or may not be appropriate in RFCs depending on what the RFC Editor does about the Style Manual but are presumably open season for I-Ds: [] Several DNS tutorials including Rampling, B. and D. Dalan, DNS for Dummies, ... Liu, C. and P. Ablitz, DNS and Bind, ... Liu, C., Larson, M., and R. Allen, DNS on Windows Server 2003,... I'd like to see this sorted out in a way that covers all of the cases not just, e.g., BCPs. The _right_ solution, IMO, would be to borrow a good information scientist of two and completely redesign the element, possibly deprecating the current one and replacing it with something completely different. The "" element idea was a kludge to avoid having to do that while providing most of the relevant functionality. Of course, anything that is designed around more tagging to permit metadata handling and retrieval can be argued to be overengineering if the goal is simply to produce output documents that look plausible. But, if the latter were really our goal, we should, perhaps, have stuck to format markup. best, john From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Oct 4 15:40:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD721F9E6B for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DvbAanxzVsEU for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FD421F9E68 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSE2g-000Pcb-SD; Fri, 04 Oct 2013 18:40:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 18:40:09 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Jim Schaad , 'xml2rfc issue tracker' Message-ID: <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:40:32 -0000 --On Friday, October 04, 2013 15:29 -0700 Jim Schaad wrote: > Making it part of the thing being cited also means that only > one person needs to maintain it and I will not get it wrong > for my document. Separate problem, IMO, because, if there is _some_ adequate mechanism for marking up the aggregate document cases, a logical next step is to have libraries for BCPs and STDs, not just RFCs, that would contain the right market. If you are concerned about getting, e.g., a multiple-document BCP reference wrong and are willing to have your references change when the BCPs change, you probably really want &bcp0101; and not any variation on &rfc3777; &rfc5633; &rfc5680; &rfc6859; That, IMO, is a different problem because, if elements are really a reasonable way to deal with the RFC numbers and citations, that library could be created today, using exactly the workaround shown at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/106 . best, john From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Fri Oct 4 19:26:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212B121F9B90 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 19:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lYrmwRjSZxSc for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 19:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68BEC21F9CC7 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2013 19:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r952QKi4049780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Oct 2013 19:26:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 19:26:19 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" , xml2rfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 02:26:23 -0000 On Oct 4, 2013, at 3:40 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Friday, October 04, 2013 15:29 -0700 Jim Schaad > wrote: >=20 >> Making it part of the thing being cited also means that only >> one person needs to maintain it and I will not get it wrong >> for my document. >=20 > Separate problem, IMO, because, if there is _some_ adequate > mechanism for marking up the aggregate document cases, a logical > next step is to have libraries for BCPs and STDs, not just RFCs, > that would contain the right market. Yes, exactly. > If you are concerned > about getting, e.g., a multiple-document BCP reference wrong and > are willing to have your references change when the BCPs change, > you probably really want >=20 > &bcp0101; >=20 > and not any variation on >=20 > > &rfc3777; > &rfc5633; > &rfc5680; > &rfc6859; > Yes, exactly. > That, IMO, is a different problem because, if > elements are really a reasonable way to deal with the RFC > numbers and citations, that library could be created today, > using exactly the workaround shown at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/106 . If you are conflating two problems (multi-document BCPs; multi-document = non-RFC references), then please don't. There is a simple solution for = the first and way too few examples of the second for us to make a good = judgement call. --Paul Hoffman= From nico@cryptonector.com Sat Oct 5 01:13:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6887E21F8D20 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3pBUpGdAvFKz for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcagg.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9B321F9978 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E222AC064 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=HFB7LjAs/7gk6ALb8s/x 15rDSVo=; b=oBBb4MLkI6QGLyBQXq+YMjuCH/ut3G7EMSuUlJplmnfAgEyH7PD5 7L8yl0iW/W/IVSza1/UgG4VBCVpHMDQqHPeTShim4Qjxo+h4CM68Td5aps3SuJmS 23dxIoXWgCMe5Q7YR7e5DDhVz4DR2MF51PDpsA294Nr4yfhIX9+zBVA= Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 024222AC05D for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id b13so5145130wgh.35 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 01:13:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gm6w3mwDIq7tH1nZrzh1VJ1T2Mtvj5l7yT7s9NmHByc=; b=k30Gn50OR7DweWE45LC67RBHm3MeeG3BRxFIrxwDHt2JuHJR7uX4+n13P3y371qedx zb724uzcoG+T5FdKKRpypSAprQH1I/QJJRIoxyU1ig5/sptB+dcPrO76eUcTHX7A+zHj XEQ7Lq+jt2Edf9HmUPZpok64v51pBB5wwo/fGNmii07ljPmI7joXSMcYKIZyBQrUdKIl Re3rYSxNKK0hcb7sFBOA5bl2NhF1U9Hel6ExzuybABOTMfZC1U51pgZwzN1Fa87fgPN7 h1SU14IlFouDydgA9EyE+kc10Xbb9bco8CWsNtZtKbv6II3Wah6MEytmWPzfVMkm/rYV hVmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.239 with SMTP id o15mr10653594wiv.36.1380960815600; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 01:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:13:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 03:13:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: John C Klensin , "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" , xml2rfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 08:13:44 -0000 On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > If you are conflating two problems (multi-document BCPs; multi-document non-RFC references), then please don't. There is a simple solution for the first and way too few examples of the second for us to make a good judgement call. Because we should repeat patterns. More seriously, :) BCPs *are* collections of documents. We already can reference both, BCPs *and* their component documents together and separately. What we lack is a way to denote collections (like BCPs) in the references section. I see nothing special about BCPs versus other collections, whether those collections be arbitrary or standardized. I.e., we need a referenceable container of references. Ideally the container should be just like references as far as a) publishing in bibxml repos, b) referencing them from xml2rfc documents. Nico -- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sat Oct 5 01:27:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFCE21F9A6C for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:27:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 642nRe9h6sZ0 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1FD821F9A64 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 01:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.102.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mcgur-1VAQiq1dB3-00Hxv4 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:27:49 +0200 Message-ID: <524FCD7D.9020909@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:27:41 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin , Paul Hoffman , xml2rfc issue tracker References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qCSwgdlXDFm6Jc7Fqy2nFr7USWaQwoc4lorj9s1Voa54w+9h+3K d0cmfBjB34SlYWVJc9OxF0I0UULT0yV1oeyKRrW2qCHBocD5i82eMJk9zeiSsXhIwb7bVBW xMux1aLr8CY94RgmPv3y2Q25g5drJ3P4XScEYf4hGv0WPhqFLFys8govVT8o8eyINLy8Zcn JKgLnAPgs955uUaaKx8LA== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 08:27:59 -0000 On 2013-10-05 00:33, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > I'd like to see this sorted out in a way that covers all of the > cases not just, e.g., BCPs. > ... +1 > ... > with something completely different. The "" element > idea was a kludge to avoid having to do that while providing > most of the relevant functionality. > ... I disagree with that. There'll always be the case that you want to add some prose. > ... Best regards, Julian From john-ietf@jck.com Sat Oct 5 07:18:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0638E21F90AF for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EF8sAS2dvqYO for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277ED21F8EA8 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSSg7-0000ox-DH; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:17:55 -0400 Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:17:50 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Julian Reschke , Paul Hoffman , xml2rfc issue tracker Message-ID: <9A0AC32E66C4F698626E8E34@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <524FCD7D.9020909@gmx.de> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <524FCD7D.9020909@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:18:07 -0000 --On Saturday, October 05, 2013 10:27 +0200 Julian Reschke wrote: >> ... >> with something completely different. The "" >> element idea was a kludge to avoid having to do that while >> providing most of the relevant functionality. >> ... > > I disagree with that. There'll always be the case that you > want to add some prose. Sorry... misunderstanding, not disagreement. I would be violently opposed to eliminating the element for precisely the reason you identify -- adding some explanatory or qualifying prose. My objection is to the specific example given on the ticket page: use of to sneak in text that is not prose at all but a list of subsidiary or associated references that ought to be appropriated tagged as metadata and for proper formatting and indexing. Similar comments appear for seriesInfo: I think the element is very valuable for its stated and obvious purpose but that using that element to sneak information that is irrelevant to that purpose into references (because it doesn't generate the blank line that does) is a bad idea, especially when that information is really metadata that should be tagged in some other way. For those for whom this discussion is getting too abstract, think about the long term in which we might want to pretty-print (or pretty-format) RFCs, not just fuss with a few non-ASCII characters or non-paged layouts. In that world, normal publication standards require that titles of journal articles and book chapters be in quotes and titles of journals and books be in italics. That is pretty hopeless, except by human intervention at the formatting or layout stages (e.g. in our current world, nroff) if the information that there are journal or book titles present is hidden away in seriesInfo or annotation. john From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sat Oct 5 07:26:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969BF21F8EA8 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:26:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.660, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I7cEt33vzB+i for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2E121F8613 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.102.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MGzwE-1VXOjz08ji-00DotR for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 16:26:01 +0200 Message-ID: <52502167.4000408@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 16:25:43 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin , Paul Hoffman , xml2rfc issue tracker References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <524FCD7D.9020909@gmx.de> <9A0AC32E66C4F698626E8E34@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <9A0AC32E66C4F698626E8E34@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:N99bmjOSie6ePvCdE670hvsVPxGOGLy1BPytmI0i2gFP97dnXXt sRiwAK8gGYWsEqGdWfvlzbCBuCqJDxgxd91ziJAF3RHqNme1cDiaaSA9v1KfpDoNWlIC6Pm HS/P/uuVPTIKdOsjjKC5bi0IaReLFX88eufNCxulrVl1C4+zutw5VASmfiiUAi9muE1MdcQ KdFI/MYPcoO3+MS6A1xEQ== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:26:19 -0000 On 2013-10-05 16:17, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Saturday, October 05, 2013 10:27 +0200 Julian Reschke > wrote: > >>> ... >>> with something completely different. The "" >>> element idea was a kludge to avoid having to do that while >>> providing most of the relevant functionality. >>> ... >> >> I disagree with that. There'll always be the case that you >> want to add some prose. > > Sorry... misunderstanding, not disagreement. I would be > violently opposed to eliminating the element for > precisely the reason you identify -- adding some explanatory or > qualifying prose. My objection is to the specific example given > on the ticket page: use of to sneak in text that is > not prose at all but a list of subsidiary or associated > references that ought to be appropriated tagged as metadata and > for proper formatting and indexing. Similar comments appear for > seriesInfo: I think the element is very valuable for its stated > and obvious purpose but that using that element to sneak > information that is irrelevant to that purpose into references > (because it doesn't generate the blank line that > does) is a bad idea, especially when that information is really > metadata that should be tagged in some other way. Big +1. > ... Best regards, Julian From john-ietf@jck.com Sat Oct 5 07:37:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F1F21F8AD5 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zlGZs5XATZu for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053D621F8E40 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSSz2-0000qD-9v; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:37:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:37:23 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <2E62B07E107AEAE10B9BAD04@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" , xml2rfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:37:38 -0000 --On Friday, October 04, 2013 19:26 -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: >... >> you probably really want >> >> &bcp0101; >> >> and not any variation on >> >> >> &rfc3777; >> &rfc5633; >> &rfc5680; >> &rfc6859; >> > > Yes, exactly. >... > If you are conflating two problems (multi-document BCPs; > multi-document non-RFC references), then please don't. There > is a simple solution for the first and way too few examples of > the second for us to make a good judgement call. Largely agreeing with Nico, but... (1) To get to "&bcp0101;", there has to be an underlying construction for multi-document arrangements. It can't be just for BCPs because we have exactly the same issues for STDs. And, curiously, they are much harder than conventional multiple document references because we believe that processing RFC XML source on the day of publication needs to yield the same result as processing that same source several years later, so &bcp0101; gets dragged into the issues of whether the intended reference was to &bcp0101-20050501; or &bcp0101-20060201; (2) "way too few examples of the second" is an interesting comment. We have several efforts afoot, for different reasons, to make RFCs more like conventional scholarly and professional publications. The issues associated with multi-document citations and references are very well known in the publications and information sciences communities, with no shortage of either examples or of discussions about what the cases are. IMO, assuming that the IETF needs to or should start developing unique and specialized solutions for those issues, avoiding relevant professional advice and the professional literature, would become reasonable about the time we start encouraging the information science community to start developing transport-level Internet protocols. :-( john From william.atwood@concordia.ca Sat Oct 5 07:42:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C782C21F8E85 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E0EMYGZZYnIU for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.96.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D4521F89FF for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 07:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (bill@grace.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.2.217]) by oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (envelope-from william.atwood@concordia.ca) (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id r95EgAlM017686; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 10:42:10 -0400 Message-ID: <5250254C.8030702@concordia.ca> Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 10:42:20 -0400 From: William Atwood Organization: Concordia University, Montreal User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <4EE8EBB40BD8FDFCC05BBA9C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <524FCD7D.9020909@gmx.de> <9A0AC32E66C4F698626E8E34@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <52502167.4000408@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <52502167.4000408@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.58 on oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca at 2013/10/05 10:42:11 EDT Cc: John C Klensin , xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc issue tracker , Paul Hoffman , sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:42:45 -0000 It seems to me that what is needed here is something of the size (and complexity) of BiBTeX. Perhaps the best solution is to adopt LaTeX and BibTeX for RFCs... (Which may be one of the options that the RFC Editor is considering; I have not been following that particular stream of discussion) :-) Do we really want to go down that path? Bill On 05/10/2013 10:25 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-05 16:17, John C Klensin wrote: >> >> >> --On Saturday, October 05, 2013 10:27 +0200 Julian Reschke >> wrote: >> >>>> ... >>>> with something completely different. The "" >>>> element idea was a kludge to avoid having to do that while >>>> providing most of the relevant functionality. >>>> ... >>> >>> I disagree with that. There'll always be the case that you >>> want to add some prose. >> >> Sorry... misunderstanding, not disagreement. I would be >> violently opposed to eliminating the element for >> precisely the reason you identify -- adding some explanatory or >> qualifying prose. My objection is to the specific example given >> on the ticket page: use of to sneak in text that is >> not prose at all but a list of subsidiary or associated >> references that ought to be appropriated tagged as metadata and >> for proper formatting and indexing. Similar comments appear for >> seriesInfo: I think the element is very valuable for its stated >> and obvious purpose but that using that element to sneak >> information that is irrelevant to that purpose into references >> (because it doesn't generate the blank line that >> does) is a bad idea, especially when that information is really >> metadata that should be tagged in some other way. > > Big +1. > >> ... > > Best regards, Julian > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc -- Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng. tel: +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046 Distinguished Professor Emeritus fax: +1 (514) 848-2830 Department of Computer Science and Software Engineering Concordia University EV 3.185 email:william.atwood@concordia.ca 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8 From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Oct 5 08:20:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB70921F8FDC for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 08:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h9AszszS8df8 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 08:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14F321F8F4A for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r95FKd4J072769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 5 Oct 2013 08:20:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-185.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.1.98.185] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 08:20:40 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <866113CD-7E09-4C5D-BFA1-C339355A95D8@vpnc.org> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> To: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: xml2rfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 15:20:41 -0000 On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:13 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >> If you are conflating two problems (multi-document BCPs; = multi-document non-RFC references), then please don't. There is a simple = solution for the first and way too few examples of the second for us to = make a good judgement call. >=20 > Because we should repeat patterns. The fact that we should repeat patterns doesn't mean that we need to = make the solution for a common problem in RFCs (BCPs) as difficult on = authors as the solution for a much rarer problem (other groupings). > More seriously, :) BCPs *are* collections of documents. We already > can reference both, BCPs *and* their component documents together and > separately. What we lack is a way to denote collections (like BCPs) > in the references section. =20 Yes. > I see nothing special about BCPs versus > other collections, whether those collections be arbitrary or > standardized. We simply disagree then. To me, the three differences are: - We know that BCPs are collections of RFCs and nothing else - We understand how to order RFCs because they are numbered - Typical readers of RFCs are more likely to care about the contents of = a BCP than of an arbitrary grouping That makes solving the problem for BCPs much easier than for arbitrary = groupings.=20 > I.e., we need a referenceable container of references. Ideally the > container should be just like references as far as a) publishing in > bibxml repos, b) referencing them from xml2rfc documents. And, as we have seen, we can bikeshed forever about that, and in the = meantime references to BCPs continue to suck and be misleading to people = who don't understand that a BCP might refer to a group of RFCs. --Paul Hoffman= From nico@cryptonector.com Sat Oct 5 17:20:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93DE21F9DF3 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shnj0+Lqw3MX for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcbef.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB1C21F9DF1 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538DD2007D818 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=KWFLwgo9/32TApD6XsMl YE+4KL8=; b=ngEZENm0x+8b4q8AYEfCdVAfVR04w7rbBx3PhIII3nFahdo1PB8N 85iaICksd9cr423YjN5y0rK7ifBeZWIsz6cvlZqpvCOV/XmidbT7XYeKet5r+3Ki vjSrN1UcgVWgD49owHYZW+q5Numi/4vPCf/3A5CkcQdZ/52FIJI58u0= Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com (mail-we0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04A612007D804 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w61so697898wes.10 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+xmHy51MJv/l85dA/Z6md3Hep+1H6iq75IVs9EzJYwI=; b=Cm5ASanS+TFWDniCtrfZGZfwJ8Dfhjx5mdERRJt23oGXpy8TGV2Ae4mvLqoTGP8z5N qoWaIju9ZvdWHF5h71D65rptkkHCqAG/ugBB9lKsvnfRVhelLV+UJP/wBEOyl2XxVLQb UFDjiYqYDMOLFB5+Yrmj8FVBaoZ1l4V4ZnOH03ZDv891ULxIzbqVH/lF0MptWZb+MCsZ KInIYC3vT53N5jHmE0CCSirq12dXfsBHVZN9DOJoFQJ85XlIFqf+Y/YsYASFdCwJrexC OKmW9H/reaGM2TUkCyrEy1vsrWMdazGmSoHl0K/nRJ2JFq5lruJEDZ4d4hsNMnJpEF52 BJxQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.239 with SMTP id o15mr12929239wiv.36.1381018808103; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <866113CD-7E09-4C5D-BFA1-C339355A95D8@vpnc.org> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.18e90d2462804be53286b11c37e0e697@tools.ietf.org> <4C70CD94-6A69-457D-A3D2-1BC1DB61F58A@vpnc.org> <017f01cec151$202c9ef0$6085dcd0$@augustcellars.com> <329930F12B9A0C3D9399EF5C@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <866113CD-7E09-4C5D-BFA1-C339355A95D8@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:20:08 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" , xml2rfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 00:20:19 -0000 On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > And, as we have seen, we can bikeshed forever about that, and in the meantime references to BCPs continue to suck and be misleading to people who don't understand that a BCP might refer to a group of RFCs. We're not talking about what color to paint the shed. We're talking about how many bikes need to be stored in it. This isn't a question of aesthetics; it's a question of architecture. There is an aesthetics angle too, yes: if we build this shed too small we're going to have to build another one later, and that means "ugly" schema for xml2rfc (that's what my comment about repetition was about). But this is really an architectural argument: why build N small buildings when you could more easily, accessibly, cheaply, ..., build one building large enough for the N purposes? (You can't always; if the N purposes are disparate, say, or if the customers really want N buildings. But neither of those considerations applies here.) You've already missed STDs as another type of collection (see John's post). I'm asserting that there are many types of referenceable document collections. We have two official types of document collections in the IETF: STDs and BCPs. We also have things like roadmap RFCs (e.g., RFC4514), which work roughly like document collections. If we had a big enough bikeshed we might have *lots* of collections, both, of Internet RFCs as well as of external documents (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, ...); I gave examples of quite a few such collections. Nico -- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sun Oct 6 04:12:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D8411E80E7 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.245, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aQy-m7OtCvq5 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4267821F9FAB for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.65.33]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lz4KW-1Votd03P2e-014Eb6 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 13:11:59 +0200 Message-ID: <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 13:11:50 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc issue tracker , john-ietf@jck.com References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:QwFhZrbYro4THze74mLFJ/S9eH0eiSf2McNXLoAJrFKTUEaOK6k /Uauj/o+MeOxS3Lmcj/lysvMFskG+sOU8ecH7jgtU4F26VnKkjB3NaKzagsZ5YSuyRR9hSr J0jbOU8X5ca3IJT/RQAbrQZCtZ9fY7OvKpxB4zjF9Ei1mzkNHYBCW26s3/31A/ubrQbN4Ro W/XIDdJACmPHUlycMO1xw== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 11:12:09 -0000 On 2013-07-11 01:02, xml2rfc issue tracker wrote: > #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs > > > Comment (by john-ietf@jck.com): > > Of course, that workaround then needs reformatting in the nroff and > doesn't permit use of seriesInfo to generate metadata about the RFCs > involved, and so on. So it is better than nothing, but definitely not a > satisfactory solution. A few comments on the proposal. In general this seems to be pragmatic, generic, and simple. So +1. Question: the suggest output is: [BCP9] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", BCP 9, RFC 2026, October 1996. Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard", BCP 9, RFC 5657, September 2009. Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", BCP 9, RFC 6410, October 2011. shouldn't it be something like: [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, October 2011. ...so have a title, and not repeat redundant information? (Minimally the title would be needed for many non-IETF uses cases) Also: when a reference is nested, should it be available as link target inside the document? If so, would it need to repeated outside the container, or would something like this: [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, October 2011. be the preference? Best regards, Julian From nico@cryptonector.com Sun Oct 6 07:52:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F80121E80BD for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id REWXXhS-6Bao for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF9C11E80F5 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC384012065C for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=rifGcTJoZU8ijApqMQz8 3rZ/jCo=; b=SPcanhSSl21FbERkesJP92JcpNs+Wvm1UV+W6qQ7v7Pwt66sDBXr phHroSGdMPacSZ9K8PWQGUUlKulC1IZgVyLk+vWZf7UU4fJoq70FetTZU33fh2fX mwrzCwrVKA0q8RBQ4qMSLegb4flwOv0iAXgfs972LQt/AMYrriwi7VI= Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com (mail-we0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B151E40120608 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id t60so329117wes.40 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JjDOihshzXVu22zFIQCSDsxfbQXEij9youatbdfrZg4=; b=lCq/gEqWF6xReeRguWrZqkR8DugjNYKNgtAbraj1az1WnIeO+gGblD8VroesOspRd3 q1QGutTpZJ4P8QX24BF2q9QEILrCguPC4h29KjluBb+DSUj4lKaqmlqzEPs2DryN6Ehi wYWEXLsF/XRJOX7aLWfbEaQAHkR3cXfpTGa2iVN6WbSNhvDfGLhr1kyiEJ8LRWy6nf5y KP9aPofMQMzKCqHW6ltleoaaL3+H3CfKuorNVtd2mXaRIUt5XmUDuMfcRcgCYCK/Yve7 Bx/GL15o/pqkUE4NeAGP2Wx0YBYLWoV30P8/ofhNHw32O/hfJTX63v5KqF4HWJISWVCn Pf5g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.39.212 with SMTP id r20mr15050708wik.13.1381071113728; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:51:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: John C Klensin , XML2RFC Interest Group , xml2rfc issue tracker , Sandy Ginoza Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 14:52:03 -0000 On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Question: the suggest output is: > > [...] > > shouldn't it be something like: > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation > and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft > Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, > October 2011. > > ...so have a title, and not repeat redundant information? Yes. > (Minimally the title would be needed for many non-IETF uses cases) > > Also: when a reference is nested, should it be available as link target > inside the document? If so, would it need to repeated outside the container, > or would something like this: > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement > to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, > October 2011. > > be the preference? Yes, the sub-reference anchor needs to be available for referencing separately from the collection. Consider an analysis of [IPsec] that in some places refers to ESP [RFC4303] and in others to IKEv2 [RFC4306] -- surely this must be feasible! Speaking of which, I want vanity/symbolic reference names so I can have a reference to [RFC4306] appear as [IKEv2]. Specifically, should have an alternate_anchor attribute, but perhaps also in there should be a way to rename anchors of s (because, after all, most often they are external and not available for editing by the author, not without complicating the author's life. Of course, there is a way to do this: with XSLT, but I think xml2rfc needs to make this user-friendly. Nico -- From john-ietf@jck.com Sun Oct 6 10:08:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F1E11E8118 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QmpDGZ1R5K0G for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF6A11E8114 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSrop-0003Th-HR; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 13:08:35 -0400 X-Vipre-Scanned: 03A6AC5E002C3103A6ADAB-TDI Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 13:08:34 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Julian Reschke , xml2rfc issue tracker Message-ID: <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> In-Reply-To: <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 17:08:46 -0000 --On Sunday, 06 October, 2013 13:11 +0200 Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-07-11 01:02, xml2rfc issue tracker wrote: >> # 106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs >> >> >> Comment (by john-ietf@jck.com): >> >> Of course, that workaround then needs reformatting in the >> nroff and doesn't permit use of seriesInfo to generate >> metadata about the RFCs involved, and so on. So it is >> better than nothing, but definitely not a satisfactory >> solution. > > A few comments on the proposal. > > In general this seems to be pragmatic, generic, and simple. So > +1. > > Question: the suggest output is: > > [BCP9] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- > Revision > 3", BCP 9, RFC 2026, October 1996. > > Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation > and Implementation Reports for Advancement to > Draft > Standard", BCP 9, RFC 5657, September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, > "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", BCP 9, > RFC 6410, > October 2011. > > shouldn't it be something like: > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation > and Implementation Reports for Advancement to > Draft > Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, > "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC > 6410, > October 2011. > > ...so have a title, and not repeat redundant information? Yes, but (i) the information that the base document in BCP 9 had an author, was RFC 2026, etc., is not redundant and gets lost in your proposed layout. And (ii) while one could make a title up or assume that the title of the first document in the set is the title of the BCP or STD, we have never assigned titles to the STDs or BCPs themselves and, especially for the latter, doing so has a record of being controversial [1]. One could imagine non-IETF situations in which the compendium would be named, have a date, and maybe an author or editor too, but that is beginning to sound more like a published complication for which see below. > (Minimally the title would be needed for many non-IETF uses > cases) Certainly true, suggesting that the DTD should be something I didn't know offhand how to write in DTD-speak but that would allow either front,seriesInfo*,format*,annotation* or 0*1 (front,seriesInfo*,format*,annotation*) 1* reference that has some stylistic implications s.t. creating a new containing element might be a better idea -- I haven't thought enough about it to have a strong opinion but the example below may unintentially illustrate the problem. An arrangement like that, with or without the new element, would leave the questions of title and information supplied to the authors and RFC Style Manual, rather than having to build it into XML2RFC where, IMO, it should be avoided if possible. > Also: when a reference is nested, should it be available as > link target inside the document? If so, would it need to > repeated outside the container, or would something like this: > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation and Implementation Reports for > Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, > September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing > the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", > RFC 6410, October 2011. > be the preference? This is where I, and probably most of the rest of us, get far outside our professional knowledge and depth. I don't recall ever seeing a reference into a compound one done that way. Instead, what I have seen would look more like (following your example as much as possible): [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. Dusseault L. and R. Sparks, op. cit. Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, October 2011. but my recollections are a rather poor guide. Certainly the construction suggested above would allow, modulo a little hand-waving: The Internet Standards Process Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard ... but I have no idea what the best way would be to format it. More generally, another way to accomplish what is needed for BCP and STD references, but not the "articles in a journal" and similar cases would be to have something more like [RFC2026] ... [RFC5657] ... [RFC6410] ... [BCP9] Bradner, ... [RFC2026] op. cit. Dusseault, ... [RFC5657] op. cit. Housley, ... [RFC6410] op. cit. However, that would require relaxing the "if it isn't cited from the text, it cannot appear in the references" rule and doing a number of interesting (and I assume difficult) things to the DTD and interpreter to make everything hang together. So I'm reluctant to propose going in that direction. I suggest that for both the stylistic requirements about what should be present and how it should be formatted and the questions of what should be either available as a link target or available as metadata [2], we hand the question off to the RFC Editor staff. They presumably know more about these issues than most of the rest of us and, more important, can reasonably be expected to find and consult the right experts, figure out what BibTeX supports and what can be learned from it, and so on. best, john -------------------- [1] One way to characterize the rather unpleasant newtrk "ISD" debate is that it was about whether whether STDs (and BCPs) were actual documents with titles and content (and RFC content incorporated by reference) or whether they were a collection of documents identified only by a reference number. While moving toward the former would help clarify the question above, I think we should probably avoid reopening that debate, especially in the critical path of xml2rfc. [2] For example, if one were trying to build a citation index to RFCs, should a reference to BCP9 count as a citation to RFC 6410? If the answer is "yes" (as it probably should be), that creates another version of the time-dependency problem because a citation of BCP 9 in a document with a 2010 date on it would presumably not be a citation of RFC 6410. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Sun Oct 6 10:24:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB9911E8118 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:24:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.635 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.635 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.996, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVVASs4DwocR for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1FD11E811B for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([93.217.65.33]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LqzEB-1VxnAS40qR-00eZbI for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 19:24:40 +0200 Message-ID: <52519CCC.6040603@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 19:24:28 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin , xml2rfc issue tracker References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> In-Reply-To: <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:zXOh87149WT7kqP1Qoxzt61HJP3mo8BMQxgTcIcneJObVFnei0c Y/Bl1wS5jKDXAeHdiJEevl/ogPeXVWpVuhl8L1Sa2iZH+qtiMospXWCZgJa99SWYR8EjXFm NpkQO/iunXaRI2gDdED0AifKJ6fWsc4x6a2erIYVXm0xcTnA4fQ4n6ArgqmeVIbwT46O/C1 D2+rBLKVx1bCuqZ5qYDKg== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 17:24:48 -0000 On 2013-10-06 19:08, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > Yes, but (i) the information that the base document in BCP 9 had > an author, was RFC 2026, etc., is not redundant and gets lost in > your proposed layout. And (ii) while one could make a title up > ... Unintentionally. Let's try again: [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP 9. Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", RFC 2026, October 1996. Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, October 2011. > or assume that the title of the first document in the set is the > title of the BCP or STD, we have never assigned titles to the > STDs or BCPs themselves and, especially for the latter, doing so > has a record of being controversial [1]. One could imagine Understood, but surely something we'd need for other document series/compound documents. > non-IETF situations in which the compendium would be named, have > a date, and maybe an author or editor too, but that is beginning > to sound more like a published complication for which see below. > >> (Minimally the title would be needed for many non-IETF uses >> cases) > > Certainly true, suggesting that the DTD should be something I > didn't know offhand how to write in DTD-speak but that would > allow > either > > front,seriesInfo*,format*,annotation* > > or > > 0*1 (front,seriesInfo*,format*,annotation*) > 1* reference > > that has some stylistic implications s.t. creating a new > containing element might be a better idea -- I haven't thought > enough about it to have a strong opinion but the example below > may unintentially illustrate the problem. > > An arrangement like that, with or without the new element, would > leave the questions of title and information supplied to the > authors and RFC Style Manual, rather than having to build it > into XML2RFC where, IMO, it should be avoided if possible. > >> Also: when a reference is nested, should it be available as >> link target inside the document? If so, would it need to >> repeated outside the container, or would something like this: >> >> [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. >> >> [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on >> Interoperation and Implementation Reports for >> Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, >> September 2009. >> >> Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing >> the Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", >> RFC 6410, October 2011. > >> be the preference? > > This is where I, and probably most of the rest of us, get far > outside our professional knowledge and depth. I don't recall > ever seeing a reference into a compound one done that way. > Instead, what I have seen would look more like (following your > example as much as possible): > > [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation and Implementation Reports for > Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, > September 2009. > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > Dusseault L. and R. Sparks, op. cit. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, > October 2011. > > but my recollections are a rather poor guide. Certainly the > construction suggested above would allow, modulo a little > hand-waving: > > > > The Internet Standards Process > > > > > Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation > > Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard > > > ... > > > but I have no idea what the best way would be to format it. Indeed. > More generally, another way to accomplish what is needed for BCP > and STD references, but not the "articles in a journal" and > similar cases would be to have something more like > > [RFC2026] ... > [RFC5657] ... > [RFC6410] ... > > [BCP9] > Bradner, ... [RFC2026] op. cit. > Dusseault, ... [RFC5657] op. cit. > Housley, ... [RFC6410] op. cit. > > However, that would require relaxing the "if it isn't cited from > the text, it cannot appear in the references" rule and doing a > number of interesting (and I assume difficult) things to the DTD > and interpreter to make everything hang together. So I'm > reluctant to propose going in that direction. > > I suggest that for both the stylistic requirements about what > should be present and how it should be formatted and the > questions of what should be either available as a link target or > available as metadata [2], we hand the question off to the RFC > Editor staff. They presumably know more about these issues than > most of the rest of us and, more important, can reasonably be > expected to find and consult the right experts, figure out what > BibTeX supports and what can be learned from it, and so on. > > best, > john > > -------------------- > > > [1] One way to characterize the rather unpleasant newtrk "ISD" > debate is that it was about whether whether STDs (and BCPs) were > actual documents with titles and content (and RFC content > incorporated by reference) or whether they were a collection of > documents identified only by a reference number. While moving > toward the former would help clarify the question above, I think > we should probably avoid reopening that debate, especially in > the critical path of xml2rfc. > > [2] For example, if one were trying to build a citation index to > RFCs, should a reference to BCP9 count as a citation to RFC > 6410? If the answer is "yes" (as it probably should be), that > creates another version of the time-dependency problem because a > citation of BCP 9 in a document with a 2010 date on it would > presumably not be a citation of RFC 6410. > > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc Best regards, Julian From john-ietf@jck.com Sun Oct 6 11:13:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6013D11E811B for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tnEFUAvJmTn7 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADAF11E811F for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1VSspg-0003aF-4P; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 14:13:32 -0400 X-Vipre-Scanned: 03E2217F002C3103E222CC-TDI Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 14:13:29 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Julian Reschke , xml2rfc issue tracker Message-ID: <10645AF91E6BF8A9E1066C02@[192.168.1.128]> In-Reply-To: <52519CCC.6040603@gmx.de> References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> <52519CCC.6040603@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:13:44 -0000 --On Sunday, 06 October, 2013 19:24 +0200 Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-06 19:08, John C Klensin wrote: > > ... >> Yes, but (i) the information that the base document in BCP 9 >> had an author, was RFC 2026, etc., is not redundant and gets >> lost in your proposed layout. And (ii) while one could make >> a title up > > ... > > Unintentionally. > > Let's try again: > > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP 9. > > Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- > Revision > 3", RFC 2026, October 1996. > > Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation > and Implementation Reports for Advancement to > Draft > Standard", RFC 5657, September 2009. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, > "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC > 6410, > October 2011. Ah. Makes far more sense. Yes. >> or assume that the title of the first document in the set is >> the title of the BCP or STD, we have never assigned titles to >> the STDs or BCPs themselves and, especially for the latter, >> doing so has a record of being controversial [1]. One could >> imagine > > Understood, but surely something we'd need for other document > series/compound documents. Agreed. >... >> but I have no idea what the best way would be to format it. > > Indeed. And that brings me back to ... >> I suggest that for both the stylistic requirements about what >> should be present and how it should be formatted and the >> questions of what should be either available as a link target >> or available as metadata [2], we hand the question off to the >> RFC Editor staff. They presumably know more about these >> issues than most of the rest of us and, more important, can >> reasonably be expected to find and consult the right experts, >> figure out what BibTeX supports and what can be learned from >> it, and so on. best regards, john From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Sun Oct 6 18:43:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9703A21E8120 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:43:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZkIouuJqWoDx for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE1D21E811F for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id r971hFhg021519; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:43:15 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6912_d6e8_d53adbb4_2ef1_11e3_9aa0_001e6722eec2; Mon, 07 Oct 2013 10:43:14 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A964BFF7E; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:43:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <525211A8.5020304@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 10:43:04 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin References: <063.8a618ceaedac1e2a2e6d5191174a1d1d@tools.ietf.org> <078.f660088f773210fa893d954a8148d29b@tools.ietf.org> <52514576.4030208@gmx.de> <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> In-Reply-To: <430BA153C653B82B2E3C4787@[192.168.1.128]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Julian Reschke , xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc issue tracker , sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 01:43:56 -0000 On 2013/10/07 2:08, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Sunday, 06 October, 2013 13:11 +0200 Julian Reschke > wrote: > >> On 2013-07-11 01:02, xml2rfc issue tracker wrote: >>> # 106: reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs > This is where I, and probably most of the rest of us, get far > outside our professional knowledge and depth. I don't recall > ever seeing a reference into a compound one done that way. > Instead, what I have seen would look more like (following your > example as much as possible): > > [RFC5657] Dusseault, L. and R. Sparks, "Guidance on > Interoperation and Implementation Reports for > Advancement to Draft Standard", RFC 5657, > September 2009. > > [BCP9] "The Internet Standards Process", BCP9. > > Dusseault L. and R. Sparks, op. cit. > > Housley, R., Crocker, D., and E. Burger, "Reducing the > Standards Track to Two Maturity Levels", RFC 6410, > October 2011. What about the following: [BCP9] "The Internet Stardards Process", BCP9, consisting of [RFC2026], [RFC5657] and [RFC6410]. or with some additional information: [BCP9] "The Internet Stardards Process", BCP9, consisting of [RFC2026] as updated by [RFC5657] and [RFC6410]. (with or without title), and then the usual forms for the actual RFCs. While this may not look as (pseudo-)professional as the "op. cit.", it's way easier to follow and easier to create. "op. cit." makes sense if citations refer e.g. to specific pages, and there is a possibility that the same information is repeated dozens of times, but not to shave off a few bytes at the cost of having the reader go hunt for that "Dusseault L. and R. Sparks" reference. In more general terms, it may be helpful to check up with somebody with professional experience from the publishing industry, and/or with some publishing manuals (Chicago Manual of Style,...), but: 1) Different professionals and manauals will give different advice 2) Different communities (starting at sciences vs. humanities, but not stopping there) and different publications have developed vastly different conventions even for the base cases. 3) Cases such as the ones we are discussing now are in the long tail, and so there will be only limited and not necessary definite advice. 4) Publishing is ultimately first and foremost about reaching your audience and thinking about your user community. If there's something that works better for us and our readers that hasn't appeared in any publication up to now, and we use it, there won't be any publishing police coming after us. Just happy readers. As an aside, if we don't want an explicit title, something like [BCP9] "Best Current Practices 9", BCP9, consisting of [RFC2026] as updated by [RFC5657] and [RFC6410]. might also work. > but my recollections are a rather poor guide. Certainly the > construction suggested above would allow, modulo a little > hand-waving: > > > > The Internet Standards Process > > > > > Guidance on Interoperation and Implementation > > Reports for Advancement to Draft Standard > > > ... > > > but I have no idea what the best way would be to format it. > More generally, another way to accomplish what is needed for BCP > and STD references, but not the "articles in a journal" and > similar cases would be to have something more like > > [RFC2026] ... > [RFC5657] ... > [RFC6410] ... > > [BCP9] > Bradner, ... [RFC2026] op. cit. > Dusseault, ... [RFC5657] op. cit. > Housley, ... [RFC6410] op. cit. > > However, that would require relaxing the "if it isn't cited from > the text, it cannot appear in the references" rule and doing a > number of interesting (and I assume difficult) things to the DTD > and interpreter to make everything hang together. So I'm > reluctant to propose going in that direction. Well, the only thing necessary might be to allow references in the reference section, in a small free-form text. Metadata generation would extract a reference composition graph from there, the logic for "if it isn't cited from the text, it cannot appear in the references" would work in quite a straightforward way, and the fact that it's free text would mean that all kinds of exceptions could be dealt with easily. Regards, Martin. From leifj@sunet.se Tue Oct 8 06:54:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FABE21E80A9 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 06:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SrtleK7W4VUo for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e-mailfilter01.sunet.se (e-mailfilter01.sunet.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:8:2::201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844B721E80A3 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.sunet.se (smtp1.sunet.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:8:2::214]) by e-mailfilter01.sunet.se (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id r98DsSxj030747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 15:54:28 +0200 Received: from kerio.sunet.se (kerio.sunet.se [192.36.171.210]) by smtp1.sunet.se (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r98DsPZX003677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 15:54:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Footer: c3VuZXQuc2U= Received: from [193.10.94.23] ([193.10.94.23]) (authenticated user leifj@sunet.se) by kerio.sunet.se (Kerio Connect 8.1.2) (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher AES256-SHA (256 bits)) for xml2rfc@ietf.org; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 15:54:24 +0200 Message-ID: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:54:24 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: outbound, sunet-se:default, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.36.171.210; country=SE; latitude=62.0000; longitude=15.0000; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=62.0000,15.0000&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: outbound-sunet-se:outbound (inherits from outbound-sunet-se:default, sunet-se:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 09KyBSsLb - 630dcbd954e7 - 20131008 X-CanIt-Archive-Cluster: PfMRe/vJWMiXwM2YIH5BVExnUnw X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:42:35 -0700 Subject: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:54:37 -0000 Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions could be organized as pull requests? Cheers Leif From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 08:48:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC75321E821A for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woIRwKdkFSd9 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcaib.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB68621E8209 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7880726C05B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=BdAAcmdJSHhMtK/y5zm+ MIfA2cE=; b=Z/K+GqWkEoUnPTuNJrUxMA1K57BzC4VJ3GH+X/MZlakg3Mn6w2qE WiT7vA75MOSW8uKObvkoW16h09EAjRNnvHYkWIMclabx6FrvMoydUrOMU10YQMRq dt5km537JNK81q6lQrea71xzwLj9EJzUvOws2+3ew/k10YAz5Z2fdts= Received: from mail-wg0-f47.google.com (mail-wg0-f47.google.com [74.125.82.47]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2B06626C069 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id f12so9182219wgh.14 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=42xexLbJQ/FWj9K5dT1BcCHnBM9qq4S+lFVM5dyEnCc=; b=C7AUTgqfZdZaD8r8XriCGrVdRG6vuEZaX+WAs3rR6dPzTOE01p+wuB46JDv1Op0s3X YbqqGjXvUgxUfN/QoQ+bYt6i5tG7J4UG3hb5aaZLwpy//3kmPtHDfHI8rhf9clSO47+U LPrP1Lkz5fs0et5u9ewHwyklmMBOgib2urGPt5k9TO23OvM4c8MlkL7btkCjPDjk80Pv MDHgunH7INnlxh3PKJJHyx26tUJYfj9SsinEEKeYQy9ZP4Y0ZAC/kjtNCoE5U9n6MHRt uveJUn7vPNAYt3H0XWelwl2yHWDQ/BmvICkwIjsxuwKUIWksvKHJwhTKf0BniuTxbwzw wFsA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.171.34 with SMTP id ar2mr1335127wjc.81.1381247301607; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:48:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Leif Johansson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f49cc26bd904e83cb2eb Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:48:35 -0000 --089e0122f49cc26bd904e83cb2eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote: > Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions > could be organized as pull requests? > I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git gateways, but there's no interest. I have used a great many VCSes over the past two+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others disagree, and will continue to for a while longer. git is so superior that soon enough the resistance will fade away. That said, I'm not sure that the IETF should be relying on free services from a commercial VCS services purveyor, not without some sort of contract: we don't want to start depending on the github issue tracker, wiki, PRs, ... only to be cut-off someday. But yeah, it'd be so nice. Nico -- --089e0122f49cc26bd904e83cb2eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote:
Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions
could be organized as pull requests?

I've asked for the IETF tools team to = switch to git or provide git gateways, but there's no interest. =C2=A0I= have used a great many VCSes over the past two+ decades: none holds a cand= le to git, but evidently others disagree, and will continue to for a while = longer. =C2=A0git is so superior that soon enough the resistance will fade = away.

That said, I'm not sure that the IETF should be rel= ying on free services from a commercial VCS services purveyor, not without = some sort of contract: we don't want to start depending on the github i= ssue tracker, wiki, PRs, ... only to be cut-off someday. =C2=A0But yeah, it= 'd be so nice.

Nico
--=C2=A0=C2=A0
--089e0122f49cc26bd904e83cb2eb-- From leifj@sunet.se Tue Oct 8 08:59:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40B521E81C0 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.056 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.056 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2bdzA1Qb5Oox for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e-mailfilter01.sunet.se (e-mailfilter01.sunet.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:8:2::201]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4149221E81EB for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.sunet.se (smtp1.sunet.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:8:2::214]) by e-mailfilter01.sunet.se (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id r98Fwjfp032435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:58:45 +0200 Received: from kerio.sunet.se (kerio.sunet.se [192.36.171.210]) by smtp1.sunet.se (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r98Fwfk6010970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:58:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Footer: c3VuZXQuc2U= Received: from [2.64.75.166] ([2.64.75.166]) by kerio.sunet.se (Kerio Connect 8.1.2); Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:58:40 +0200 From: "Leif Johansson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D8FE8CF5-B948-4B29-A6A4-C3DD2CC8E0C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <5FF124C9-1473-4AA7-8100-BADCD253FEA5@sunet.se> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:58:39 +0200 To: Nico Williams X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: outbound, sunet-se:default, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.36.171.210; country=SE; latitude=62.0000; longitude=15.0000; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=62.0000,15.0000&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: outbound-sunet-se:outbound (inherits from outbound-sunet-se:default, sunet-se:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 09KyDWJr9 - 7e82f752d10d - 20131008 X-CanIt-Archive-Cluster: PfMRe/vJWMiXwM2YIH5BVExnUnw X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:59:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D8FE8CF5-B948-4B29-A6A4-C3DD2CC8E0C5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 8 okt 2013 kl. 17:48 skrev "Nico Williams" : >=20 >> On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote: >> Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions >> could be organized as pull requests? >=20 > I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git gateway= s, but there's no interest. I have used a great many VCSes over the past tw= o+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others disagree, and w= ill continue to for a while longer. git is so superior that soon enough the= resistance will fade away. +1 >=20 > That said, I'm not sure that the IETF should be relying on free services f= rom a commercial VCS services purveyor, not without some sort of contract: w= e don't want to start depending on the github issue tracker, wiki, PRs, ... o= nly to be cut-off someday. But yeah, it'd be so nice. I don't thing xml2rfc-the-tool is annointed (yet) in any way... >=20 > Nico > -- =20 --Apple-Mail-D8FE8CF5-B948-4B29-A6A4-C3DD2CC8E0C5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


8 okt 2013 kl. 17:48 skrev "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com>:

On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote:
Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions
could be organized as pull requests?

I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git gateways, but there's no interest.  I have used a great many VCSes over the past two+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others disagree, and will continue to for a while longer.  git is so superior that soon enough the resistance will fade away.

+1


That said, I'm not sure that the IETF should be relying on free services from a commercial VCS services purveyor, not without some sort of contract: we don't want to start depending on the github issue tracker, wiki, PRs, ... only to be cut-off someday.  But yeah, it'd be so nice.

I don't thing xml2rfc-the-tool is annointed (yet) in any way...


Nico
--  
--Apple-Mail-D8FE8CF5-B948-4B29-A6A4-C3DD2CC8E0C5-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Oct 8 09:44:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F34421E823C for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GvNSgSkmhv2A for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E2C21E81B1 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 09:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn5-1390.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.235]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 29358414D9; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 10:50:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <5254365C.2040701@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:44:12 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leif Johansson References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> In-Reply-To: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:44:43 -0000 On 10/8/13 7:54 AM, Leif Johansson wrote: > > Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions > could be organized as pull requests? +1 /psa From henrik@levkowetz.com Tue Oct 8 11:19:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF74A21E827F for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJxTQWk2wJv3 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D44A21E8278 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49286 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTbs5-0001FX-4n; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:19:01 +0200 Message-ID: <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:18:55 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: nico@cryptonector.com, leifj@sunet.se, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Leif Johansson Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:19:06 -0000 Hi Nico, On 2013-10-08 17:48 Nico Williams said the following: > On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote: > >> Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions >> could be organized as pull requests? >> > > I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git > gateways, but there's no interest. I think that if you go back and look at what I said the previous time this came up, you'll see that the impression you put forward above doesn't match what was said. Please read on below. > I have used a great many VCSes over the > past two+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others > disagree, and will continue to for a while longer. git is so superior that > soon enough the resistance will fade away. There are a number of use-cases for VCSes, and some of them are better handled by git than by others. I've very recently run into a situation with a contractor which has shown me that there are use-cases where git's distributed nature and local commits is exactly what is *not* desired. That said, I'd like to tell you that about 3 weeks ago, I *did* set up git repositories for all WGs on the tools servers, paralleling the current SVN repositories, and requiring the same kind of authenticated access to push commits as the current SVN repositories requires to commit. I did this as a first step towards providing git support across all the groups which today have SVN support on the tools.ietf.org servers. The issue I had with providing git support the last time this came up, as far as I can remember the situation, was that I wasn't able to easily provide front-end support -- issue tracker, repository browser, etc., as Trac didn't have it in released form at that time, and didn't have another option researched and ready. This time around, that support *is* available in Trac, so it's more a matter of upgrading Trac than evaluating and setting up new front-end infrastructure. However, I've spent about 40 hours during evenings and weekends, outside my regular work hours during the last 2 weeks, getting a particularly recalcitrant code merge for the datatracker in shape to be released, and finding and fixing bugs in the new code, so I haven't had time to test and then hopefully transition the configuration and deploy the new Trac release. Can you bear with me for another few weeks to complete what I've already started, without yelling too loudly that 'the tools team has no interest in providing git support'? Henrik > That said, I'm not sure that the IETF should be relying on free services > from a commercial VCS services purveyor, not without some sort of contract: > we don't want to start depending on the github issue tracker, wiki, PRs, > ... only to be cut-off someday. But yeah, it'd be so nice. From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Tue Oct 8 12:29:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090E821F9FBC for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:29:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6PpHrbW-uvzX for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B042B21F8201 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.249.247] (sn80.proper.com [75.101.18.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r98JTa7l087225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:29:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host sn80.proper.com [75.101.18.80] claimed to be [165.227.249.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:29:36 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:29:58 -0000 Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head = to get: git !=3D github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could = do pull requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part = of git, and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole = repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another = level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level = changes easily. --Paul Hoffman= From leifj@mnt.se Tue Oct 8 12:40:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E8F21F9C28 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YOYlQhxiwaR for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-f51.google.com (mail-la0-f51.google.com [209.85.215.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BA521F9C4F for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 12:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id es20so7442507lab.10 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/jyo0t1YVTlYXd6a/M08jretQnD6bWx62qDKwz35jfs=; b=RjMQXpqdiO6R33JFD676x2A2k73fYHdI5XXpFAfNppoLRR9TDq50dX2s1WzJp9zTeX tG+cCTTRiCAWDKGnODXBPVejIKggTzHTgT6YFF0zTu3ig5Uwi4yvZxXFAt/pCkwUjdDF dVJEYAt6czdLFO4K/VapMVT4jQKmIIt9bWEPReHt1+sYdpsgOpz2rasQBEjj8twmZk+a 3YBBHLKHNhQZ8LKTgJys+gAW45FfQ5uXgcMwvY9DQim545Mf/pHQUQNQxl1KaDdZ3BKq FsdXfxkKRa1JpuL0mllE83C4wPFZna2eFSRRaxvtPwZmSM9782Lmcm6yOeoMcaBmEEoH Be5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnq/esv7kjYGPAcmChZGH3rlBTWXtBhASPWo5uINxx2V8cBkpsotoYVIFYiYDXCX7KiCrSz X-Received: by 10.152.36.98 with SMTP id p2mr2740074laj.14.1381261230474; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.244] (tb62-102-145-131.cust.teknikbyran.com. [62.102.145.131]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e4sm23585029lba.15.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:40:27 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:40:58 -0000 On 10/08/2013 09:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head to get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could do pull requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of git, and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. yep > > Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level changes easily. > > yep one is good, both is better and I wasn't asking for the whole of the IETF to be moved into github, given away and shredded by the ghosts of a thousand hipsters in the cloud I was just asking about xml2rfc the tool Cheers Leif From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 13:02:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2BE11E810A for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.955 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.955 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yF3-gRUStpvl for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcbbj.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5787321F9EED for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D6754078 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=RZNOCOLpQzYmZXuWHMie zU081rM=; b=vZgp9pmsqd2P5P+P8eiqcwmxnZ0UwgZoaGXA9bZWNBKPc1F0kQLN Cu09ifCIdhhFZcnXa9gDcrVA7Jw40eOO+7vmcP6Q15tzTWeDsCacjv0Zg8GmP83H rkvRxoFf7SDZfmJaHdaDXhe5mSnYNcZE246brcT2FZDlG9RH6aFqKXM= Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8774F54058 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id w62so7731453wes.35 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=k2809RtdE8f8r/jKNP+KyI86E7e2Kaeq3dyTt3IgTkY=; b=ghv3kiHam/mst352XAp2eZlPsUBEAS6KWwUfGHn3RwSK7tWv9aJODpR6McdZ4eBm6c Q1kcHTnAIJSHTVcIJL45eqBUvwO3cvpgmXFuqVzhafQVMVQpykn0g3GvQxzGn0qLgRZB n8s8KO0lObxivo5KcAitmR0f64y7sjFyWxTKCRpmjGaFDA3tppB5bXdh+4yj2WVPKJMp YDd0kXxutCz+os6pq/GiT+4xnfA2/BQPjsTRD5MTMK6qaaKwpUTHe+NIfjN9zJeolkO/ TXJdtq8Ul3S64J/y+HwtdJWiyaVLntYJho2DVhHFBFbwfuUzR3n3j6dxjCQHLRN9YsVv yj7g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.99.3 with SMTP id em3mr25653284wib.4.1381262534603; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 15:02:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdaf4b79e4904e8403e96 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Leif Johansson Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:02:24 -0000 --f46d043bdaf4b79e4904e8403e96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Nico, > > On 2013-10-08 17:48 Nico Williams said the following: > > On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote: > > > >> Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contributions > >> could be organized as pull requests? > >> > > > > I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git > > gateways, but there's no interest. > > I think that if you go back and look at what I said the previous time this > came up, you'll see that the impression you put forward above doesn't match > what was said. Please read on below. > > > I have used a great many VCSes over the > > past two+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others > > disagree, and will continue to for a while longer. git is so superior > that > > soon enough the resistance will fade away. > > There are a number of use-cases for VCSes, and some of them are better > handled > by git than by others. I've very recently run into a situation with a > contractor > which has shown me that there are use-cases where git's distributed nature > and > local commits is exactly what is *not* desired. I've only ever seen one use case for centralized VCS: proprietary codebases. And even then, if you want to preclude exfiltration then centralizing your VCS is hardly even enough to get started, and by the time you're done then git should be OK: because you simply don't allow exfiltration even of one version. > That said, I'd like to tell you that about 3 weeks ago, I *did* set up git > repositories for all WGs on the tools servers, paralleling the current SVN > repositories, and requiring the same kind of authenticated access to push > commits as the current SVN repositories requires to commit. I did this as > a > first step towards providing git support across all the groups which today > have SVN support on the tools.ietf.org servers. The issue I had with > providing git support the last time this came up, as far as I can remember > the situation, was that I wasn't able to easily provide front-end support > -- issue tracker, repository browser, etc., as Trac didn't have it in > released > form at that time, and didn't have another option researched and ready. This is great news! Thanks! > This time around, that support *is* available in Trac, so it's more a > matter > of upgrading Trac than evaluating and setting up new front-end > infrastructure. Awesome! > However, I've spent about 40 hours during evenings and weekends, outside > my regular work hours during the last 2 weeks, getting a particularly > recalcitrant > code merge for the datatracker in shape to be released, and finding and > fixing > bugs in the new code, so I haven't had time to test and then hopefully > transition > the configuration and deploy the new Trac release. > > Can you bear with me for another few weeks to complete what I've already > started, without yelling too loudly that 'the tools team has no interest > in providing git support'? > Absolutely. I used weasel words to avoid blaming you or anyone in particular. The impression i'd been left with last time this came up was that there was no interest in migrating from a VCS that was working fine; that might just be me misremembering. Nico -- --f46d043bdaf4b79e4904e8403e96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
Hi Nico,

On 2013-10-08 17:48 Nico Williams said the following:
> On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Leif Johansson wrote:
>
>> Could we could host the xml2rfc v2 code on github so that contribu= tions
>> could be organized as pull requests?
>>
>
> I've asked for the IETF tools team to switch to git or provide git=
> gateways, but there's no interest.

I think that if you go back and look at what I said the previous time this<= br> came up, you'll see that the impression you put forward above doesn'= ;t match
what was said. =C2=A0Please read on below.

> =C2=A0I have used a great many VCSes over the
> past two+ decades: none holds a candle to git, but evidently others > disagree, and will continue to for a while longer. =C2=A0git is so sup= erior that
> soon enough the resistance will fade away.

There are a number of use-cases for VCSes, and some of them are better hand= led
by git than by others. =C2=A0I've very recently run into a situation wi= th a contractor
which has shown me that there are use-cases where git's distributed nat= ure and
local commits is exactly what is *not* desired.

=
I've only ever seen one use case for centralized VCS: proprietary = codebases. =C2=A0And even then, if you want to preclude exfiltration then c= entralizing your VCS is hardly even enough to get started, and by the time = you're done then git should be OK: because you simply don't allow e= xfiltration even of one version.
=C2=A0
That said, I'd like to tell you that about 3 weeks ago, I *did* set up = git
repositories for all WGs on the tools servers, paralleling the current SVN<= br> repositories, and requiring the same kind of authenticated access to push commits as the current SVN repositories requires to commit. =C2=A0I did thi= s as a
first step towards providing git support across all the groups which today<= br> have SVN support on the tools.ietf.org servers. =C2=A0The issue I had with
providing git support the last time this came up, as far as I can remember<= br> the situation, was that I wasn't able to easily provide front-end suppo= rt
-- issue tracker, repository browser, etc., as Trac didn't have it in r= eleased
form at that time, and didn't have another option researched and ready.=

This is great news! =C2=A0Thanks!
=C2=A0
This time around, that support *is* available in Trac, so it's more a m= atter
of upgrading Trac than evaluating and setting up new front-end infrastructu= re.

Awesome!
=C2=A0
However, I've spent about 40 hours during evenings and weekends, outsid= e
my regular work hours during the last 2 weeks, getting a particularly recal= citrant
code merge for the datatracker in shape to be released, and finding and fix= ing
bugs in the new code, so I haven't had time to test and then hopefully = transition
the configuration and deploy the new Trac release.

Can you bear with me for another few weeks to complete what I've alread= y
started, without yelling too loudly that 'the tools team has no interes= t
in providing git support'?

Absolutely. =C2=A0I used weasel words to a= void blaming you or anyone in particular. =C2=A0The impression i'd been= left with last time this came up was that there was no interest in migrati= ng from a VCS that was working fine; that might just be me misremembering.<= /div>

Nico
--=C2=A0=C2=A0
--f46d043bdaf4b79e4904e8403e96-- From petithug@acm.org Tue Oct 8 13:02:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F5B11E8101 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uljmRdiKxLWC for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9952D11E8100 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:9:4bc0:20:5855:2ed:c086:d4e7] (unknown [IPv6:2601:9:4bc0:20:5855:2ed:c086:d4e7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 625142025A; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <525464DE.5070800@acm.org> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:02:38 -0700 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131005 Icedove/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:02:42 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 10/08/2013 12:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head to > get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could do pull > requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of git, > and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. > > Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole > repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another > level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level > changes easily. > Note that you can use git with a svn repository: git svn clone http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/ Github does not manage correctly code rebase, which is, IMO, the whole point of git (i.e. you want a repository containing a clean history, not a catalog of your mistakes). A better choice for the IETF would be Gerrit, with the additional advantage that the storage would be under the control of the IETF. - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJSVGTdAAoJECnERZXWan7Exr8QAIrysJOQ96KawCqHF4YTMKr4 8gAD1I0Rw4UG9ChqTDhjb/aVDQZBJnp4qS6V5TmRCfLUtId0crKqpZzjhbgGX5DW Wxdw7aJK9XmjKrus9UlWcZkMqYfnZgQYLefW16+Jm2cpq73wyGZmeeTUxao1gR9S o0JY35sw4b9iy7/8QNUGuj/PU5z1v3jafIy18WS+3MlXHFRj8+K4Nt35BTpIzLB3 k2a/UxvF1gACM60cNkyww1pj6wyTjoMPzCEtz9TO3fjaVhj+GM60fwr4PoNLaT6R a5TJ21/9YD1iKSzCsAGJLVTNvepx9abAWJeyrimdgb9m/qfItiSFU5kwczODHlUL F7tqA3HyOQh9u0FI+p9yx9nkhmSMDdc44+EfU/OTwpHTQKVN0oIekai1BgEnYxRb OSlL15PNwxkLSfsVdXGsHdbd/mcHCdmAb7GsksQnmj51froZYgZ+CyQXCGjoFiUG iXlS/eIO2U0xHmjabsvn3xDQ3uKjYgZFMKcXXuRGDogIT34tgjmTh7Y9Qav+M0td LRnp0yN1Hnkkb3LLyah5GQjU3Gq+lCFz34T1+ZFR/AfZPH1Cb6kph4ruavoQIh1a o3qYSi6YkiSQUaosMk5qGVC2nPH7jdpmkaa34TUfTkhsrjd7YTcZeoQZ0aLWkop3 oABwU8BhbbzzjRfgxo3A =v7Ez -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 13:07:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E3B21F9FF0 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BSP_OTHER=-0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mqc14XZ76u8h for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDDD21F9FF1 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEDD21DE77 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=edxTqwXnogAZcpJ5yzoz Uj2wyMs=; b=BCvvp3I90+P1QBSsxvIJNPDxbCE+QpqgShHXSahvTd9Wu4uBPQlD ANSNKCWGls/lmEETswgg6Fk6Lx7/AXIWy0q9OKe2uGEt0boVaFBdzN1tZaJpPy0A dvlYFsoYxHZw4vKJzHcr9Vi/tpuoVTJZtuvoeV5xLPD/Nsc5AFvKv6s= Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB7CF21DE65 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id ez12so7210665wid.8 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=tX141CRbAodG1fYUGWdzxgEbhriIvKvltMSGuehTnRY=; b=PgW2fH530p7al1ZA46QDOZdi8iVCAzl+LT2QsNJMlSDBDMOo7r8Znsz1EAWUbQFI4C R00O58EyfdySrvIXeJ8guzh51Mhv5LpA+PXn7PVRJpRGr1D49/JJzPTRGt/ZHM8xBp7a ZOKZyc3rJrp9RE2P4IZXrSr3V2hGWtLD8WIU8u7VdRkrW87cGWmaPqxrbU9NHCndpX2P r8RHRsnVN1BbfqpU6kAvrRjPhOiUyohNlysdEC4sp8WedYFEBG2A5ICbNC8hZac5yuTu NQ3F1JkNFML1y/WTYPyOqWav7+WiDXOxcxo1IEcKwU5F6AEpE37AaGKftrPqmhgod6S9 V6xA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.134.97 with SMTP id pj1mr3467560wjb.58.1381262864430; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525464DE.5070800@acm.org> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <525464DE.5070800@acm.org> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 15:07:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Marc Petit-Huguenin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122805860421304e8405218 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 20:07:53 -0000 --089e0122805860421304e8405218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > On 10/08/2013 12:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head > to > > get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could do > pull > > requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of git, > > and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. > > > > Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole > > repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another > > level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level > > changes easily. > > > > Note that you can use git with a svn repository: > > git svn clone http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/ > > Github does not manage correctly code rebase, which is, IMO, the whole > point > of git (i.e. you want a repository containing a clean history, not a > catalog > of your mistakes). A better choice for the IETF would be Gerrit, with the > additional advantage that the storage would be under the control of the > IETF. > I use git with github. I use got for rebase and cherry-pick operations. I use github as a public repo, as a backup, as an issues db, for code review (but Gerrit is, indeed, better), as a social medium (PRs), ... I would expect users to submit rebased commits -- that is more than fair enough IMO. --089e0122805860421304e8405218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote:=
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 10/08/2013 12:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> Jus= t to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head to> get: git !=3D github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could = do pull
> requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of gi= t,
> and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git.
>
&g= t; Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole<= br> > repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is an= other
> level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippe= t-level
> changes easily.
>

Note that you can use git wi= th a svn repository:

git svn clone=C2=A0http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/
=
Github does not manage correctly code rebase, which is, IMO, the whole = point
of git (i.e. you want a repository containing a clean history, not a catalo= g
of your mistakes). =C2=A0A better choice for the IETF would be Gerrit,= with the
additional advantage that the storage would be under the contr= ol of the IETF.

I use gi= t with github. =C2=A0I use got for rebase and cherry-pick operations. =C2= =A0I use github as a public repo, as a backup, as an issues db, for code re= view (but Gerrit is, indeed, better), as a social medium (PRs), ... =C2=A0I= would expect users to submit rebased commits -- that is more than fair eno= ugh IMO.=C2=A0

--089e0122805860421304e8405218-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Oct 8 17:10:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76CF11E8116 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:10:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAxlQYzf8qDr for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D484521F9FB0 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 17:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A13B2024F for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 21:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id A3D3863B88; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 20:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B4563B87 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 20:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "xml2rfc\@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:10:42 -0000 --=-=-= Paul Hoffman wrote: paul> Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the paul> head to get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he paul> could do pull requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) paul> part of git, and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. github just puts a web interface and a bunch of friendly automation (travis-cl is very nice...) on top of pull operations (which now become "requests") github is not the only solution: https://gitorious.org/ exists, redmine/chiliproject, savannah and sf.net all have systems that interface on top of git, but only gitorious comes close to the ease of forking and making pull requests that github championed. pull operations are an integral part of *git*. Anyone with a web server that speaks http: can arrange to publish code using git, although the git:// protocol is apparently more efficient. tcpdump.org maintains it's own git repo at bpf.tcpdump.org, but that repo is pushed to github nightly. This gets us all of the benefits of github, but they don't hold the keys to the castle. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUlSe4oqHRg3pndX9AQKcFQQAlliFQXUluIx2NGKnovrnPZcgjdEn+VYH n7homI3hdcsUgnwbQOH18HCGkyNH8mtjbG2z+KUVSGu1zqp0bGeytpEFfUWlXJYq 63MXBOSfD2BmmmPpuU+jI2A8AwriLXk2zMTnw+Uh5yXF/HCXlkyy04iSAfCsA+Fo bLxpd1QKIlw= =1k5b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From henrik@levkowetz.com Tue Oct 8 18:57:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A1A21E80BE for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 18:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zukwfXNT715k for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 18:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319A921E80A9 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 18:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34548 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTj1M-0002lU-Ux; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 03:57:05 +0200 Message-ID: <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 03:49:21 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leif Johansson References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> In-Reply-To: <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: leifj@mnt.se, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 01:57:08 -0000 Hi Leif, (I did see your patch earlier, but unfortunately was so involved in getting the latest datatracker release out that I didn't manage to act on it at the time. Sorry. Regarding pull requests, below:) On 2013-10-08 21:40 Leif Johansson said the following: > On 10/08/2013 09:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head to get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could do pull requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of git, and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. > yep >> >> Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level changes easily. >> >> > yep > > one is good, both is better Eh? I think I understand, but I don't _get it_. Let me give you my background so you can provide the information I could be missing: My main interaction with github as a developer till now has been as one of the two active contributors to a project hosted on github (https://github.com/dotse/PacketQ/). I work on some code, do commits, push it to my own repository on github, issue a pull request when I think stuff is ready, and when the people responsible for the primary repository has the time, they do a pull and merge, and if needed conflict resolution. To me, a pull request is just a button that provides the equivalent function of me manually putting together an email saying 'please pull from my repository at , commit '. In the case of github, I don't think it actually even creates an email, it just creates an annotation on the repository you've sent the pull request to, and if the owners of that don't visit it, the pull request can sit there for ages, without being acted on. If that shortcut is sufficiently valuable, there is nothing that prevents us from having it as an add-on to the Trac front-end I expect to put in place, if it isn't already there. The pull action itself, as has already been well explained by Michael, is built into git itself, so we don't have to do anything extra to get that. Recapitulating: If you want the 'pull request' functionality, I'll add the needed buttons to the web front-end (if not already there), and I'll try to go one better: I'll try to see to it there's an actual email going out as a notification. > and I wasn't asking for the whole of the IETF to be moved into github, > given away and shredded by the ghosts of a thousand hipsters in the cloud > > I was just asking about xml2rfc the tool Understood, I got that; now I'm trying to understand what it is I'm missing here. Best regards, Henrik From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 22:11:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE38F21F9E5E for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CggM8ptDuxVb for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94D121F9E5B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E4B428076 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=B/Uq3VVTlMPXyCcsbOZw 0ZJGXfw=; b=pCKn10HXgLbomAmTIblPkQGxhcUzb7NT7ZFTigHnxkKvbQtf5bx+ aqqT7tXd4iqr2AcnV4wO687wUGJqiAgqqDRHh61O8Y9vxk86p5z5bJTrKSZAL3tE /ZBHKqAyXnvbbYv7s5fznRLc1pLxFjeYyNtnGq4s+jTk+nUdv+Tbfu8= Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8FEEF428072 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id f12so282986wgh.5 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=orSYstWnpzXRjvPgIMw67C1g2pGuaLJVrgmjDNlexBg=; b=MJvbSb3rFyUnGicCPW43bqs7QXVl93gEx5diDRZqM8+QIgiUwAl1RfWVQIAcdJrXvQ QKAhpIlGj2JwFY3y86pDjHa3d3JpTiz/shG8wqjcPX0XojhrI04qV+VgNYIFgCY+Zv8W 7PV5gS1kHc+3dM2FyiGyfgqascCls4/hCS8uZJR4nYNijbQYJ30Yo6O5FHfQIqP5Wjv9 V5JTe5BZrOaOY77vg8ehiTpro/0SkiLUo8lJ4+BfSxaOsYtHrjzGXjXdiTXZydFhIyTb dPaJA0/STvg3eyYmKX1ZOkQU7x/BnOnyq8NBqfWVL4xwK6wYH4OAMMIzVr8otW3rmCyq 9tnA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.239 with SMTP id o15mr969334wiv.36.1381295475898; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:11:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0435c0082bc1fe04e847ea3d Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:11:27 -0000 --f46d0435c0082bc1fe04e847ea3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I dunno about Leif, but it's not the pull req button i care about, it's git, just git; github is just an option anyone can use the moment you use git. All of git: commit hashes (history as a tree of Merkle hash chains), branches, tags, distributed development (clone at will, disconnected operations, push/pull/format-patch/mail) rebase powers, cherry-picking, the _index_ (and the power of git add -p), ssh and http and filesystem protocols, and so on. The pull req thing is just sugar -nice yummy social networking sugar- but just sugar. Sure, PRs are a critical aspect of git's rise to king of the hill status, but that's not the reason i love git. The only other VCS that comes close is Fossil, but it lacks a powerful rebase, and also the index, so for me it's not good enough. SVN is like torture. git has become the standard for open source devlopment. CVS is almost dead, svn is dying, mercurial is an also-ran... It's not like git is an awful choice imposed by its popularity, it really is awesome, with very few weak points (limited file rename functionality is my biggest pet peeve with git; i hear NetBSD had trouble with the number of files they have to stuff into git, but that's not a problem here, and anyways, Illumos is in git and it's huge, ditto. linux, glibc, ...). Nico -- --f46d0435c0082bc1fe04e847ea3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I dunno about Leif, but it's not the pull req button i care about, it&#= 39;s git, just git; github is just an option anyone can use the moment you = use git. =C2=A0All of git: commit hashes (history as a tree of Merkle hash = chains), branches, tags, distributed development (clone at will, disconnect= ed operations, push/pull/format-patch/mail)=C2=A0rebase powers, cherry-pick= ing, the _index_ (and the power of git add -p), ssh and http and filesystem= protocols,=C2=A0and so on.

The pull req thing is just sugar -nice yummy social networki= ng=C2=A0sugar- but just sugar. =C2=A0Sure, PRs are a critical aspect of git= 's rise to king of the hill status, but that's not the reason i lov= e git.

The only other VCS that comes close is Fossil, but it l= acks a powerful rebase, and also the index, so for me it's not good eno= ugh. =C2=A0SVN is like=C2=A0torture. =C2=A0git has become the standard for = open source devlopment. =C2=A0CVS is almost dead, svn is dying, mercurial i= s an also-ran... =C2=A0It's not like git is an awful choice imposed by = its popularity, it really is awesome, with very few weak points (limited fi= le rename functionality is my biggest pet peeve with git; i hear NetBSD had= trouble with the number of files they have to stuff into git, but that'= ;s not a problem here, and anyways, Illumos is in git and it's huge, di= tto. linux, glibc, ...).

Nico
--=C2=A0
--f46d0435c0082bc1fe04e847ea3d-- From randy@psg.com Tue Oct 8 22:50:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2815211E812B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:50:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.238, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hY066fTI5cBX for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB90021E80D5 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 22:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VTmfJ-0004cI-69; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:50:33 +0000 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 14:50:32 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Nico Williams In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 05:50:42 -0000 if we're gonna seriously repaint the bikeshed, and i do not advocate doing so, then mercurial whomps git. but then again, i like emacs. randy From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 23:25:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA6121F99D5 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.993 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.993 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eyej-XHo8YEv for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BE621F9951 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FF926C078 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:24:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=UfNLWwkb4awIWTfWPkod GzylWzI=; b=uWkxcKlDfFypsdzhemkSxLR44LyXHDEwoamRktuAfkJaDlcuQeUo giCzLRZAQCaKNO4uOCpnQwnCQLF4E/q4M9NR2U/+p6ag4EQnseTWNq//HIsp/JFx 3QJdYnMtut2Xq9dMrrh9OR3a6RDVwGxL4BJBjjgVr42AOnFXzfN28g4= Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4607626C06F for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id l12so936260wiv.5 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=G2a6RswqRDvqQ6SFnW0TbeO1Q6S5Byf1EIcC+0VdKRA=; b=K8OuFZ4KNp0zTnPLVJyAUw3wtgHEHWThycdsBE1cFRdLTFGTBqhmzmEiDuuyDffzs+ BxrKepP1mNbhpNLPOpX7OHiSxNZ43ihophtUZYgRzVrmloFOcEwkdy34zizDVHOBbjt4 Wp2l6c9Jy585EordM+pHPCWpALw4DjwEnei5elfgXKeta7WPlXVCuB2i9aWbOt35t0Al I9l/0dRfwXUBkiMMSakYKatooP3TmdJoGZYcoZk4h935Yn5wgLO1gxvry7Hu7NEDFWFX wbDhh2d9HA6LdErECerLb3pT5aGh2Msetv9oD4tFgLNcVmVHp4kL1cFXGmE5GN8jiNvW U/8g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.239 with SMTP id o15mr1191098wiv.36.1381299884696; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Randy Bush Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:25:08 -0000 On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > if we're gonna seriously repaint the bikeshed, and i do not advocate > doing so, then mercurial whomps git. but then again, i like emacs. Some of this is bikeshedding. Some of this is social (the avalanche effect happened). Some of this is features, and no, Mercurial (which I used for years because Solaris' [and later OpenSolaris'] core OS/Net and several other consolidations used it) does not beat git when it comes to features. Nor architecture. Is this the right thread to discuss the non-bikeshed aspects of this? Architecture: - disconnected repos & tree of Merkle hash trees (with symbolic names in the form of branches and tags) wins hands down over anything else for VCS. Understanding this actually has deep impact on what you might call bikeshed details (see below). Features: - rebase (including rebase -i and --onto) (I know, there's two extensions for this in Mercurial, one for rebase, and one for editing history[*]) - index (git add, particularly git add -p) -- if you don't know what this is and you do find out you'll never go back - disconnected operations (e.g., diff against upstream, which Mercurial required extensions to do well back when i had to use it, and which did not work when disconnected from the upstream). This is actually architectural because we can't always be connected to infrastructure; being unable to perform important *local* operations while disconnected is a serious shortcoming! Just those two should be enough. But there's more! Bikeshed stuff: - naming versions by commits since day 1 (as Mercurial does) is utterly useless once you have tens of thousands of commits -- useless and dangerous as it doesn't yield a canonical commit naming form. Naming commits exclusively by their hashes is not a bikeshed detail, actually, but a direct consequence of scaling to very large projects with very large history + using Merkle hash chains. - relative commit naming, relative to current "HEAD" is incredibly useful when reviewing recent history, rebasing, .... This too is really a UI issue, not aesthetics: relative-to-HEAD aliasing of commits is much easier to use than having to constantly lookup commits to refer to. - basic functionality not included in Mercurial (see above; see also use of PAGER, ...); - command-line options stuff (git suffers a bit in this department); - documentation (I know git haters hate git for its docs, but Mercurial's rarely help me as quickly as git's); - ... None of this matters though. For a while we all had to use CVS. Then we had to use Mercurial or SVN. Now we have to use git. It's what you want if you want mind share, because of social network effects. Or build something to replace git with, just like git replaced the others. [*] Some people practically scream that history should never be edited. git users agree! but only w.r.t. history in *public* proclaimed-stable repos. Rebase is incredibly powerful and useful when developing commits for contribution to an upstream. Nico -- From randy@psg.com Tue Oct 8 23:39:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DFA21F9EE1 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDJ2DOinj5bf for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF1F21F9EAF for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VTnP9-0004kh-HF; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:37:55 +0000 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 15:37:54 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Nico Williams In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:39:27 -0000 jeezus! is there a *real* problem we're trying to solve? randy From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 23:46:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7467521F9A1C for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:46:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id clRHBqB2fOqu for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccah.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.207]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D52621E80D8 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3C910059 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=8itkkr3YGG/8HXtQGSeG 570q2Wg=; b=RBUw3Q8ngaPZ+OANtsqSPBeAEzVUULQLeOjTJs8hEKRV6igI69lG ivHiVU6FAVFxLN9YxNcH+1wOMZHXWaaFGYmtd6mJIAQTjqk3qk4x5ub2VPvYIWGF 9SjM8Em3zGBAVPhJpZzniMkPWZXWBHUBWkL58IMFqm/ASoXM3wQ5MPI= Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA05310058 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id t61so375799wes.13 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=2ByLEIYw6xeojLLw8zDqIJa1TeeTCN6H4+T3A2V4TvM=; b=Hf73UG2dXRS9hT3itbPBWTwcYthPCGkv04J19vOF9MygJ1alJJbLpsRkiKncTYAkcs eTpifbHjWuIySvCgOPCNvJYKxoliE8yejPII1MEOtoTNq5/YHtFsUaEd/lTX8MP1Y3qK uzmmU5aa3vRUZNUeSniH+TrAVQyYSywAtwAaS94RWfOapZmD/qaLVfmZH6/3hshGEXIo hSBXZi81aA3VNYuHlgA88DpqoZSInWd1SI26YI0z17IJsrE2D5ys/bqNPayCmNC8y9pJ JXkdHv/5S83uIWMUyhdmtj6VaMZoBD0T57dBOwd5PtiM50bgl74sWbFNpTKrgRJf6rOQ G+Pg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.39.212 with SMTP id r20mr1213840wik.13.1381301129303; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:45:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:45:29 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Randy Bush Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:46:10 -0000 On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 1:37 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > jeezus! is there a *real* problem we're trying to solve? Yes, actually: popularity and relevance (laugh all you want, but it matters). We [should] want contribution to IETF and related tools to be easier. Easier, today, means: use git. It's easier because of all the things that make git better and easier *and* because of github and gitorious. The latter add social networking effects that really make this a no-brainer. Just look at their growth, at their stats -- nothing else comes close; it's a great ecosystem that we are NOT a part of. From randy@psg.com Tue Oct 8 23:48:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA1121F99E9 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:48:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.211, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uU-Px1QRCSib for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC1D21F9A15 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VTnYt-0004mG-MV; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:48:00 +0000 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 15:47:58 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Nico Williams In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:48:02 -0000 >> jeezus! is there a *real* problem we're trying to solve? > Yes, actually: popularity and relevance (laugh all you want, but it > matters). i get it. xml2rfc need to be on twitter and facebook! From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 8 23:51:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F052121F99E7 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RWLj0C3ESRw3 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcbef.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C070721F99E9 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C2B2007AD22 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:50:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=BVamnVexcEQRZkwTM+S/ 03zkvKo=; b=a3+q674ZGJxOOw8eVINaIRfrnw3o3aVzAk8WgKRz+tAmnxTZbd80 dChxvcPrbfE8QdUOmICBb4sAE2jqsu1UZJW1upErgvCempqDNQr6uXX2d+9vVsA0 EaSnnQlsi/hJso9dwrLnWEhHe21OYOMJ1UxQflGeYRaN8BU2XdlWkfc= Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 111C02007AD20 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id l12so341441wiv.14 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:50:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=xHyoH1gauq4PpmG+cXZMVEUhyjtIse1olrWU4t7pDcw=; b=KurKq8GIZkto5Tk3cEWwvc3bu+J7gZrRqx8VUwtbSTxYyX2rPBCNXlkbv96jmtGxnk T3ukf8A9+b+hnxIAkMMApS18nQGI2SPZw7+AZPnTwnsjVz0z9ql8yXLNQYdW9ojl66r4 M91b5nhe37p1M48mxESN9KWN2Z1rKbfN7NZcRT8VzcGHf1lpaOCujRZ9mOCUcomes9tW D7GPZ6hQih1BYQ7sx5aj38aBY/1K3126dO110tVILrSIXBdyQXOtzi2nKxsETVWdKrRk BjvYqHyHgTcg79fwSkHsoD8kHGM2gUBolNJf70dyCD9EfBJSF97/4R5d9ftOuwHV5VAq pTjw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.239 with SMTP id o15mr1273080wiv.36.1381301452608; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:50:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:50:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Randy Bush Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:51:06 -0000 On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 1:47 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > i get it. xml2rfc need to be on twitter and facebook! Not quite, no: just on the sites that are twitter and fb for *developers*. A smaller audience, but still *much* larger than the usual suspects who attend IETF meetings. There's no need for xml2rfc to be on github or gitorious either. Just having these tools in any public git repo *instantly* enables the use of github/gitorious too. From leifj@mnt.se Wed Oct 9 00:21:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A8621E80D8 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:21:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1auMAev9gj66 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f171.google.com (mail-lb0-f171.google.com [209.85.217.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890A121E80C7 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f171.google.com with SMTP id u14so428452lbd.30 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YMMsY3wnCMFigaFBEV7m2Y2adaWSwfpX4kIn9d8oCcY=; b=dLZ+fNTuoo9zJj47DI+xLoVJqPwElFWMRGNNXdbJ6NZb1kGxe2hj65Ys+qs0kcaABg zMVdP9TIpwelWTgD0tgPw8FHvN2UcAdcZps+7lmv7mGLO1xE/Dj2btjz8tMy6DRyl7mr aokPIOMWZbz9nxN4V38vYqlMrJwHwx6H6sJI5Dx/AOckegywm8okkp04srLkX+PLvowO bnsKWW3mbRA7hFuFaKZfhNirosGIn6Tg98aH5opS5dLhth0v3xbYgyDXi5eijAF1Gx0t Hbh2jnnL+TLJYX1My+rRH3HpID7CSu25SnL8RN6AODgxKDXHRj8b9zveKIoPKm7M5MYi jV0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm1ADIoMdXY5vJa5uRhvdos8VWY+CepGDcsZqODOzh7JtSTbM4S0Ten0kShUIaPyM7LttKK X-Received: by 10.152.120.228 with SMTP id lf4mr139168lab.44.1381303276909; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [109.105.104.183] (dhcp49.se-tug.nordu.net. [109.105.104.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l10sm25194122lbh.13.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:21:14 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:21:27 -0000 On 10/09/2013 03:49 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Leif, > > (I did see your patch earlier, but unfortunately was so involved in getting the > latest datatracker release out that I didn't manage to act on it at the time. > Sorry. Regarding pull requests, below:) > > On 2013-10-08 21:40 Leif Johansson said the following: >> On 10/08/2013 09:29 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> Just to be clear on a point that I needed a clue-by-four across the head to get: git != github. In specific, Leif asked for GitHub so he could do pull requests. Those are not (I believe; would love to be wrong) part of git, and they are a highly-sought-after feature of git. >> yep >>> Git without GitHub gets you a very valuable feature: you have the whole repo on your disconnected box. GitHub's pull request feature is another level of good, allowing disparate people to contribute snippet-level changes easily. >>> >>> >> yep >> >> one is good, both is better > Eh? I think I understand, but I don't _get it_. Let me give you my background > so you can provide the information I could be missing: My main interaction with > github as a developer till now has been as one of the two active contributors to > a project hosted on github (https://github.com/dotse/PacketQ/). I work on some > code, do commits, push it to my own repository on github, issue a pull request > when I think stuff is ready, and when the people responsible for the primary > repository has the time, they do a pull and merge, and if needed conflict > resolution. > > To me, a pull request is just a button that provides the equivalent function of > me manually putting together an email saying 'please pull from my repository at > , commit '. Yep basically. In the same way that an email is just a fancy-schmanzy way to send a letter. > > In the case of github, I don't think it actually even creates an email, it just > creates an annotation on the repository you've sent the pull request to, and if > the owners of that don't visit it, the pull request can sit there for ages, > without being acted on. > > If that shortcut is sufficiently valuable, there is nothing that prevents us from > having it as an add-on to the Trac front-end I expect to put in place, if it > isn't already there. > > The pull action itself, as has already been well explained by Michael, is built > into git itself, so we don't have to do anything extra to get that. > > Recapitulating: If you want the 'pull request' functionality, I'll add the > needed buttons to the web front-end (if not already there), and I'll try to > go one better: I'll try to see to it there's an actual email going out as > a notification. > >> and I wasn't asking for the whole of the IETF to be moved into github, >> given away and shredded by the ghosts of a thousand hipsters in the cloud >> >> I was just asking about xml2rfc the tool > Understood, I got that; now I'm trying to understand what it is I'm missing > here. > > > Best regards, > > Henrik > From leifj@mnt.se Wed Oct 9 00:22:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FF821E80F2 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:22:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xi6sCLz2RxCo for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B32F21E80D8 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id w7so428782lbi.29 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6KmKmzqjlxW2qGKr3WncdKidHW7MrYktYsAwE0I7efw=; b=PpmftYh7xJAkodvr2F6TENRKdiXdjkRiRIx/AAEg/eGTFWNaCMBlP6+i0XwtjuLAQu V8p0zWzgjO1ctW/Q9rCjfP5SNJEYtDCs5fq1Pk/KN09tjfLgfmPBLrNVb85DQ7IE+qQ/ MMGZy/mG6q4cmvVCFwMQv7PHxSLwVAH5peFQbxITzr6uknzbC92wIjhbKbCdXSTQ5wzl /KvlYFw7oItiHWSLLPNRscYmk9Gf/YW4GqOPe3ndPyMYbsjxRpzsbo3F3qaU4vXhcoF9 BO16QgEt/HG+2ed0hmcmAk2KSH0Gch+P1HAfciKfjE5FoDkyMtqiJnZ1ZGiv0A8Os8eG DEAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlxu9qszpmGp7vI5+kY+WY1FozYqY3qyZBhXsDjCf+oBq58SCmYHPZ3BrXmMwzCuhE7n+Gt X-Received: by 10.112.130.168 with SMTP id of8mr144974lbb.46.1381303315938; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [109.105.104.183] (dhcp49.se-tug.nordu.net. [109.105.104.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ur6sm25212607lbc.5.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <52550411.7090905@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:21:53 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:22:02 -0000 On 10/09/2013 07:50 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > if we're gonna seriously repaint the bikeshed, and i do not advocate > doing so, then mercurial whomps git. but then again, i like emacs. > > randy > _______________________________________________ > xml2rfc mailing list > xml2rfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc and I use vi but please lets not paint that From sustrik@250bpm.com Wed Oct 9 00:36:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC9221E80DE for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:36:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJPVJiLvCtt0 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.moloch.sk (chrocht.moloch.sk [62.176.169.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C6321F963F for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.moloch.sk (Postfix, from userid 107) id B80BF1802026; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:36:45 +0200 (CEST) To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1000:rcmail.php MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:36:45 +0200 From: Martin Sustrik In-Reply-To: <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> References: "<52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> " <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> Message-ID: <9002e7eab6658f6158ae0d1f1ad93c55@webmail.moloch.sk> X-Sender: sustrik@250bpm.com User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.8.1 Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] =?utf-8?q?github=3F?= X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:36:53 -0000 On 2013-10-09 09:21, Leif Johansson wrote: >> To me, a pull request is just a button that provides the equivalent >> function of >> me manually putting together an email saying 'please pull from my >> repository at >> , commit '. > > Yep basically. In the same way that an email is just a fancy-schmanzy > way > to send a letter. Except that pull requests can change over time. You believe that pull request X points to commit Y, but an hour later you find out it points to commit Z. When pushing 'merge' button there's always a probability of pulling some commits that weren't reviewed. The design is kind of strange. Martin From leifj@mnt.se Wed Oct 9 00:43:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A80521F9DD5 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZi+lXhUM26Q for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-f54.google.com (mail-la0-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BF221F9DB8 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ea20so337224lab.13 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oLtCXzx+ZqbMddm1rcL7lrHpFyjp5BhljEFSfWTl2Bg=; b=mxjM8Td/R/rAusCf6gFWXzqecWm6J8AUYhiLx1zOwctnRjSf6jAs7Owds/QUaIFB+m lzRp7bqQXJQa04EzWyK4SGKfPJEwWJU29A19Yl38LSNlcVcZ/m/m94E/dErZBKRJLDdW x5z6lJYjhbVmVOQT9GZ2sdFtnyxF2sSR8jY9ZM7R+JHeM5f7tfN5MaS2YiXybuKH1GKl eQYd2UE8J1qEcDqp0yp00xscml5vNSCuLj+P10rSaTgrm842H/p5fgFWdtJ5Xcc/N/PK N0RtBI+dsbEyJ1Db2zaTlemQTcPtAyfOD5icz+cu6Y4bEfi/42uUodVCgizXanYXyBK9 ZKwA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm1PZUu7TKlXzs17Im9Dp8OgDtobuIE3ZVLKxgBwRu6Px/lo1l5vVYSnS88kGRZ55Ei5k0X X-Received: by 10.152.88.74 with SMTP id be10mr5271873lab.4.1381304620552; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [109.105.104.183] (dhcp49.se-tug.nordu.net. [109.105.104.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id mz3sm19828197lbb.14.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Oct 2013 00:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5255092A.7080900@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:43:38 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: "<52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> " <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se> <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> <9002e7eab6658f6158ae0d1f1ad93c55@webmail.moloch.sk> In-Reply-To: <9002e7eab6658f6158ae0d1f1ad93c55@webmail.moloch.sk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:43:49 -0000 On 10/09/2013 09:36 AM, Martin Sustrik wrote: > On 2013-10-09 09:21, Leif Johansson wrote: > >>> To me, a pull request is just a button that provides the equivalent >>> function of >>> me manually putting together an email saying 'please pull from my >>> repository at >>> , commit '. >> >> Yep basically. In the same way that an email is just a fancy-schmanzy >> way >> to send a letter. > > Except that pull requests can change over time. You believe that pull > request X points to commit Y, but an hour later you find out it points > to commit Z. When pushing 'merge' button there's always a probability > of pulling some commits that weren't reviewed. The design is kind of > strange. > thats why you use a CI to run your testcases before you commit :-) From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Oct 9 00:52:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFED21E80E2 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x9P1pWQdpUfy for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9607321E80D5 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id r997psu1026364; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:51:54 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4027_614f_aa0a4052_30b7_11e3_8fd8_001e6722eec2; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 16:51:53 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6307CBF4CC; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:51:53 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <52550B0D.7040203@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 16:51:41 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Leif Johansson Subject: [xml2rfc] OT (Re: github?) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:52:10 -0000 On 2013/10/09 5:02, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tuesday, October 8, 2013, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> On 2013-10-08 17:48 Nico Williams said the following: >> There are a number of use-cases for VCSes, and some of them are better >> handled >> by git than by others. I've very recently run into a situation with a >> contractor >> which has shown me that there are use-cases where git's distributed nature >> and >> local commits is exactly what is *not* desired. > > > I've only ever seen one use case for centralized VCS: proprietary > codebases. I have at least two others, but they don't apply to IETF repositories: 1) Huge agglomerations of data where it's difficult to divide things up into separate projects but nobody really wants to download the whole history (e.g. huge website). 2) Educational situations where the concept of version management is foreign to the students in the first place. Having "commit" mean "commit to THE repository" can make things simpler to learn and understand, as a first step. Regards, Martin. From sustrik@250bpm.com Wed Oct 9 00:57:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7137321E80F9 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XrzkboauulLh for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.moloch.sk (chrocht.moloch.sk [62.176.169.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8C421E80F5 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 00:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.moloch.sk (Postfix, from userid 107) id 1EE261802026; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:57:41 +0200 (CEST) To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1000:rcmail.php MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:57:41 +0200 From: Martin Sustrik In-Reply-To: <5255092A.7080900@mnt.se> References: "\"<52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> \" <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se>" <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> <9002e7eab6658f6158ae0d1f1ad93c55@webmail.moloch.sk> <5255092A.7080900@mnt.se> Message-ID: X-Sender: sustrik@250bpm.com User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.8.1 Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] =?utf-8?q?github=3F?= X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 07:57:51 -0000 On 2013-10-09 09:43, Leif Johansson wrote: >> Except that pull requests can change over time. You believe that pull >> request X points to commit Y, but an hour later you find out it points >> to commit Z. When pushing 'merge' button there's always a probability >> of pulling some commits that weren't reviewed. The design is kind of >> strange. >> > thats why you use a CI to run your testcases before you commit :-) That only works if you are both the author of the patch and maintainer of the project. If the patch comes from 3rd party, there's no guarantee that it was properly tested. So you test the patched version. Then you press 'merge' button. And voila! there's a new untested commit merged into mainline that was added by the 3rd party while you were doing the testing. Race condition in the process :) Martin From henrik@levkowetz.com Wed Oct 9 01:12:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEE311E8147 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J+Ggls62zbr1 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B2611E8145 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 01:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37386 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTosq-0006Rb-NN; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:12:41 +0200 Message-ID: <52550FF3.1090400@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:12:35 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: nico@cryptonector.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:12:47 -0000 On 2013-10-08 22:02 Nico Williams said the following: >> > >> > There are a number of use-cases for VCSes, and some of them are better >> > handled >> > by git than by others. I've very recently run into a situation with a >> > contractor >> > which has shown me that there are use-cases where git's distributed nature >> > and >> > local commits is exactly what is *not* desired. > > I've only ever seen one use case for centralized VCS: proprietary > codebases. And even then, if you want to preclude exfiltration then > centralizing your VCS is hardly even enough to get started, and by the time > you're done then git should be OK: because you simply don't allow > exfiltration even of one version. The use case when working with external contractors is that using a central repository for commits lets you follow the work as it comes along. I've had several cases where a contractor (not one we're currently working with) has gone down a wrong path, and I've been able to catch this within a day by getting emailed copies of the commit messages, and gone and looked at the committed code when something unexpected has triggered me. Working with local commits and much larger and less frequent updates to a repository I can see takes me into a situation where the size of the updates are large enough that inspection requires substantial chunks of time instead of seconds, and thus just don't happen easily. Best regards, Henrik From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Oct 9 07:26:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3FA11E8196 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 07:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.401, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZQvG3xrYOpH for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 07:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C34D11E818C for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 07:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC2720251; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 11:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1CDC363B88; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D7963B87; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:26:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Martin Sustrik In-Reply-To: References: "\"<52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> \" <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <52545FAB.1040601@mnt.se>" <5254B621.8070605@levkowetz.com> <525503EA.1040105@mnt.se> <9002e7eab6658f6158ae0d1f1ad93c55@webmail.moloch.sk> <5255092A.7080900@mnt.se> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] =?utf-8?q?github=3F?= X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 14:26:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin Sustrik wrote: >>> Except that pull requests can change over time. You believe that pu= ll >>> request X points to commit Y, but an hour later you find out it poi= nts >>> to commit Z. When pushing 'merge' button there's always a probabili= ty >>> of pulling some commits that weren't reviewed. The design is kind of >>> strange. >>> >> thats why you use a CI to run your testcases before you commit :-) > That only works if you are both the author of the patch and maintaine= r of the > project. If the patch comes from 3rd party, there's no guarantee that it was That's why you have the CI tied to github: See, for instance: https://travis-ci.org/the-tcpdump-group/tcpdump/builds/11890369 referenced at: https://github.com/the-tcpdump-group/tcpdump/pull/323 "See all is well" and also, later on: "We can=E2=80=99t automatically merge this pull request." I'm not actually saying that xml2rfc should be on github. It's enough that it be maintained in git, because then it's really a social question about it being on github, or any other service *as well* =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUlVnoYqHRg3pndX9AQLsMgQAgRpaXNMXeHlxQqLuqUIk0YheskkuuDFT qkgKf0cuqn74T6q126Vn2At5t9FtI81w9xWqhOa8LfKwfUc1Gye7vhQjkzC1nXpV Hgml+9DJ5G93nJqnCiWYkvK6EiLHrWeosQw1v/nGSNyNJlJj9wT22ZqUhposVsXm 76Yy6kXzhXU= =OUx6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nico@cryptonector.com Wed Oct 9 08:34:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E6611E81AD for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 08:34:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sBfhkWEfAtbN for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 08:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcaid.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F78A11E819A for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 08:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AF0508103 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 06:50:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=GlCRAuH7aiBSZXCztgH6 +HqDcLY=; b=sp1OiTTC769qIkAca9qOIAkhyuS5ju0lZl0VgDGlb2XVNDZkXtam fWc06P7a3sLsP9+XgrWSn4qjCLWdWzUkHD1SBgAGzCtAyFlQc4t1lJHUC81v6+y7 rgPxG7ZyaL8eui6eR4sZIWsr7hhwVKOGUHU6DylGhO/E4EHzyc38J/M= Received: from mail-we0-f178.google.com (mail-we0-f178.google.com [74.125.82.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D6755080DF for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 06:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id q59so957077wes.37 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1Ljj6eDMN47VdldC2aRz3yjffPllmjaIZ/PySPU+n0s=; b=fbbpGiL+g7ARD66sqCAS92+2uGNUPiSMMb25a7Dph48+PFnlCGEGbyOciBs+o//O7r 62TgOo8MNovZ/VaU31hzPDzewRNKMylDViZESX3yGvA/myCgJY6WkWklB5cHAiDw/EO5 huhxiMsn/1byxphQw1wi3LOEhOxFAjYu9b2yjDQs6Q0iNNTFneSV1cjKhw5y47jqUCBd a7I3syx28eeLlZDqAeGELXQ5Y8qqttAKBfVBAwzzS2LsgS+giYEFYOJkDk2TDu+N37Lh vjLs4pnAegLmO9xeb2QtBxNNLJmdRx3Fgsk26hKIP/QbeqUSkix95RUy4t1NDt2SoeYm p+/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.198.79 with SMTP id ja15mr2775399wic.36.1381324924652; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 06:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 06:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 06:22:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52550FF3.1090400@levkowetz.com> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <52550FF3.1090400@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 08:22:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b62425274164b04e84ec5f4 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 15:34:43 -0000 --047d7b62425274164b04e84ec5f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Oct 9, 2013 5:12 AM, "Henrik Levkowetz" wrote: > The use case when working with external contractors is that using a central > repository for commits lets you follow the work as it comes along. I've had > several cases where a contractor (not one we're currently working with) has > gone down a wrong path, and I've been able to catch this within a day by getting > emailed copies of the commit messages, and gone and looked at the committed code > when something unexpected has triggered me. Working with local commits and much > larger and less frequent updates to a repository I can see takes me into a situation > where the size of the updates are large enough that inspection requires substantial > chunks of time instead of seconds, and thus just don't happen easily. git does not preclude this: just ask the dev to push often to a repo you can look at. I often keep pre-rebase branches around just to be able to show that work. --047d7b62425274164b04e84ec5f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Oct 9, 2013 5:12 AM, "Henrik Levkowetz" <henrik@levkowetz.com> wrote:
> The use case when working with external contractors is that using a ce= ntral
> repository for commits lets you follow the work as it comes along. =C2= =A0I've had
> several cases where a contractor (not one we're currently working = with) has
> gone down a wrong path, and I've been able to catch this within a = day by getting
> emailed copies of the commit messages, and gone and looked at the comm= itted code
> when something unexpected has triggered me. =C2=A0Working with local c= ommits and much
> larger and less frequent updates to a repository I can see takes me in= to a situation
> where the size of the updates are large enough that inspection require= s substantial
> chunks of time instead of seconds, and thus just don't happen easi= ly.

git does not preclude this: just ask the dev to push often t= o a repo you can look at.=C2=A0 I often keep pre-rebase branches around jus= t to be able to show that work.

--047d7b62425274164b04e84ec5f4-- From petithug@acm.org Wed Oct 9 09:06:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEE821F9901 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:06:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8oNS5VPmdQn for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E380321E80A5 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:9:4bc0:20:3829:5371:a59f:aa62] (unknown [IPv6:2601:9:4bc0:20:3829:5371:a59f:aa62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96B9C2037A; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 18:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <52557E5D.4050409@acm.org> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:03:41 -0700 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131005 Icedove/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <52550FF3.1090400@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 16:06:39 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 10/09/2013 06:22 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2013 5:12 AM, "Henrik Levkowetz" > wrote: >> The use case when working with external contractors is that using a >> central repository for commits lets you follow the work as it comes >> along. I've had several cases where a contractor (not one we're >> currently working with) has gone down a wrong path, and I've been able to >> catch this within a day by getting emailed copies of the commit messages, >> and gone and looked at the committed code when something unexpected has >> triggered me. Working with local commits and much larger and less >> frequent updates to a repository I can see takes me into a > situation >> where the size of the updates are large enough that inspection requires > substantial >> chunks of time instead of seconds, and thus just don't happen easily. > > git does not preclude this: just ask the dev to push often to a repo you > can look at. I often keep pre-rebase branches around just to be able to > show that work. > My main concern with scm like svn (even when using git svn) is the "commit until it builds" mentality, which makes the repository unsuitable for bisection. The git way, which is "send a patchset for review until it is perfect" (sent by email [e.g lkml], pushed in Gerrit [e.g. Android] or in a temporary repository), will make things better in the long term. And with Gerrit you can configure Jenkins to automatically verify a patchset, i.e. each patchset pushed is immediately built, automatically tested and rejected if that fails. I think that this feature alone compensates for the increase in size of code to review prior to merging. There is currently a Gerrit sandbox for Wireshark, if people wants to try Gerrit (unfortunately no Jenkins integration so far): http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev/201309/msg00188.html I wrote some quickstart instructions here: http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev/201309/msg00191.html http://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev/201309/msg00197.html - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJSVX5bAAoJECnERZXWan7EzYMQAOgvx7GY5TZRhA9/v3cRxUa1 1hWo9J8NCb9BlwL6fc70FiOjbSYPiraEsRlHaHIJvBNMWn/HoD3jkBP+f1IX3DqV ncWOViAPEHuLR8wPGkY3Cq7S9NZ7js3lvvKtEpkv37wwlBUv/ztPrTF0kK1BUZAs 5a7I0abvLJrU65NGQGRIlH1H6w2ru2paNDk/W+8AcdDPBWbF5viTsANNHEL03HvI JG3WgJ9wk5ImO3S4vT24BdGQR+8m2bO7g8+C1FlM7UBSlppRDY8P9idhWPo9xrCK 4b7F3JJt4BwF4kLek5pZC7WuDl7exvZg48FxBEu4tFT/nOw/6n5HEr87tppldTUs S/9BftxHhG1huTQ5uHS1OOCW35WgxxH9pHErv2JktrDxow+aOMhet2ZzZslOrGUy IFoTmXTn9+ZbsDJP7IR2d2WZY/9SbRS9x9FWnVDILM/dS8tHdPpjcbbA5lnjsDR8 dByfjJllqEqtiO48D3uGxhU47ZP8MzcEstCzecxr4fkeX7X8QD7lqndLRKPl01rY k7bqTGok5j3A2fsHC1PFCCbvTV9V2cEoCcALeb2rR+5KjY9s4K/oPk5d/W11K/6t 0OJGGrM+/Hp9MP9lfG3Ly8TYt3FdQ0U4d9beAQHz94INVjW8NvcuAG1rXKQC6j+w 7kilrY6nTB7WKunE613R =lSYW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From douglasroyer@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 09:57:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B888A21E8085 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aj306FJAqzyD for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x232.google.com (mail-pb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A257311E81BA for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id uo5so1189408pbc.37 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CtZ9gYkmpDMyjMWNIm251+OQyyjWWHvTu2wD4vb0MrU=; b=Sp6zMgz8Ro9BXkaiCgyiS2Fphaas2TvLn1gW3CfjfpJWVo3iQxhlEIkX7gbOfVBv+3 FolafYOgIIiSFyeRV5Fs5AfAlTfNpkaB0X/Tz3Kh+cmriaLfqgbborLmGprkBGfYvZaq nDE9qpWWWWWVn4Ty+ePQRZ/Cg4GzutJ2QA+6fDq2KTduyyv7si78eFgpF6qAn5snlfbH LYVshzQ50rr2ueN0l4tHLzoE5sGxbLjOVkrEl8WuCklm0RQB2j4+GxbvwnoqJSlSw1xh BZAlpr9c8uUZ8nBJ6CKd7ZsJmAtGWTiAwm1fIGPO9CK54vgFpEizUlnCUEHdO0GqwN3Y eERg== X-Received: by 10.69.15.100 with SMTP id fn4mr8803612pbd.157.1381337773136; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.15.4] (184-76-96-188.war.clearwire-wmx.net. [184.76.96.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o1sm47672201pbe.37.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Oct 2013 09:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <52558AAA.7090108@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 10:56:10 -0600 From: Doug Royer Organization: http://SoftwareAndServices.NET User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <26040.1381277410@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <26040.1381277410@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 16:57:10 -0000 Years ago, who would have thought that SIMTEL would have gone away? Personally I do not care about GIT, SVN, CVS, SCCS, RCS, or whatever. However the other point made (by Nico) was that the IETF needs to take responsibility to ensure the hosting and web services does not disappear. I think because other sites, fads, tools, and sponsors over time have gone away. I did not see any direct reply to that point. A quick web search for 'web interface for git' resulted in some hits. The pull request is just another form of branch - correct? GITHUB does the access control work, not GIT - correct? As to GITHUB vs GIT vs the current system: Is it that GITHUB is desired? Or GIT? If GITHUB: (1) What does it have that is NEEDED? (2) What does it have that is DESIRED? If GIT, exactly what features of the current system are: (3) Broken (4) Undesirable I have used many opens source and proprietary source code repository programs over the decades. Other than 'it would be nice if...', I personally do not see that moving to GIT will solve any problems. ALL of the systems were designed to allow multiple collaborators, and yes with different processes to control that access and different methods of merging and resolving conflicts and branching. So, exactly what can not be done? Or exactly what needs to be changed? And why? Doug Royer - (K7DMR.us / DougRoyer.com) DouglasRoyer@gmail.com 714-989-6135 From nico@cryptonector.com Thu Oct 10 04:34:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9F521E8106 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6YLeV5JrZDD for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65C321E8103 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6B6428079 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=/3mXHBSN4z5oY0osgqRU XIthgg8=; b=GKkH1BWfNl/2D/NXM0geNPYByd6/e8O4X/wagPI2w3YVqsiaOSDB 0pnfOg9iBE8LPdIOFycnazduLurdwCjPpEEvTSXnF3CJmakeeIn2m+KvmII/m/wy 0ROu3DSwffOyOzptcsr7nfApzvZwz6vz6sYVkiT6ETm8e8+MuJSSA+4= Received: from mail-we0-f171.google.com (mail-we0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18FF6428078 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f171.google.com with SMTP id t60so2321055wes.2 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JBDxiZeagoqk1Jf2dAV0pH4aEv8qHOgPwxs9eiKzv5M=; b=aJgSK6FzJBgpJuKnjhwSgEM8er+QIbXmrMHz/3BZsGp0vuHJhuYecuQd2hzVw0hwUr NAnlBzVPSY+sdXP3NuFKYCZ0yCrcN7kAMWCaJiWd1Mk4Eba+/vkWID6mGLfAxAQFA0a2 AgugbyvpSSoMsNB+QNwrjAJLff7irGceN63v0JcBVWAjPVIPY/kr4dzoJ9yN5j1GuyzF YvguflPE2/Ol07rKGBsOIIusl9QT7+km1KKMYatFkj0v+ACDSdxCrtMAnxS4qV1fhOcz B9gf6saZHVCa1EsjIC6q5RA63WVOQ822CjJYYbIF58biQ0YXauGibawv45lP8nBn5xY7 RJBQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.198.79 with SMTP id ja15mr7327500wic.36.1381404880344; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:34:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52558AAA.7090108@gmail.com> References: <52540E90.2020103@sunet.se> <52544C8F.1000408@levkowetz.com> <28501509-C604-4C3F-937F-F46997E0969B@vpnc.org> <26040.1381277410@sandelman.ca> <52558AAA.7090108@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 06:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Doug Royer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6242522f1ce904e8616312 Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] github? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:34:48 -0000 --047d7b6242522f1ce904e8616312 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Oct 9, 2013 1:57 PM, "Doug Royer" wrote: > The pull request is just another form of branch - correct? It's a social thing. > GITHUB does the access control work, not GIT - correct? Git can be used without github, with authorization that works just fine. > As to GITHUB vs GIT vs the current system: > > Is it that GITHUB is desired? Or GIT? Yes. It is git that we want. Because using git enables the use of github (and others). And it is also github (and gitorious that we want. Also because git is awesome. > If GITHUB: > > (1) What does it have that is NEEDED? People. Developers in particular. Lots and lots if then. Just look at stats for sourceforge vs github. (Sourceforge simply didn't foster community; that's basically all github did.) > (2) What does it have that is DESIRED? Same answer. > If GIT, exactly what features of the current system are: > (3) Broken > (4) Undesirable git has won; not using it repels a lot of desirable participants. git has a number of features that other VCSes don't; I've already listed some of them. > I have used many opens source and proprietary source code repository programs over the decades. Other than 'it would be nice if...', I personally do not see that moving to GIT will solve any problems. ALL of the systems were designed to allow multiple collaborators, and yes with different processes to control that access and different methods of merging and resolving conflicts and branching. So, exactly what can not be done? Or exactly what needs to be changed? And why? To my knowledge no VCS has anything like git's "index". That's enough in my world to doom them all. More importantly, when faced with a wildly popular technology one could: ignore it, adopt it, or innovate so as to replace it. Sometimes a popular technology is just so good as to make replacement of it unlikely/difficult (e.g., AC electric current), altering innovation mostly only at the margins. Not adopting such a technology is risky. git is such a technology. Nico -- --047d7b6242522f1ce904e8616312 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Oct 9, 2013 1:57 PM, "Doug Royer" <douglasroyer@gmail.com> wrote: > The pull request is just another form of branch - correct?

It's a social thing.

> GITHUB does the access control work, not GIT - correct?=

Git can be used without github, with authorization that work= s just fine.

> As to GITHUB vs GIT vs the current system:
>
> Is it that GITHUB is desired? Or GIT?

Yes.

It is git that we want.=C2=A0 Because using git enables the = use of github (and others).=C2=A0 And it is also github (and gitorious that= we want.=C2=A0 Also because git is awesome.

> If GITHUB:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (1) What does = it have that is NEEDED?

People.=C2=A0 Developers in particular.=C2=A0 Lots and lots = if then.=C2=A0 Just look at stats for sourceforge vs github.=C2=A0 (Sourcef= orge simply didn't foster community; that's basically all github di= d.)

> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= (2) What does it have that is DESIRED?

Same answer.

> If =C2=A0GIT, exactly what features of the current syst= em are:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (3) Broken
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (4) Undesirabl= e

git has won; not using it repels a lot of desirable particip= ants.=C2=A0 git has a number of features that other VCSes don't; I'= ve already listed some of them.

> I have used many opens source and proprietary source co= de repository programs over the decades. Other than 'it would be nice i= f...', I personally do not see that moving to GIT will solve any proble= ms. ALL of the systems were designed to allow multiple collaborators, and y= es with different processes to control that access and different methods of= merging and resolving conflicts and branching. So, exactly what can not be= done? Or exactly what needs to be changed? And why?

To my knowledge no VCS has anything like git's "ind= ex".=C2=A0 That's enough in my world to doom them all.=C2=A0 More = importantly, when faced with a wildly popular technology one could: ignore = it, adopt it, or innovate so as to replace it.=C2=A0 Sometimes a popular te= chnology is just so good as to make replacement of it unlikely/difficult (e= .g., AC electric current), altering innovation mostly only at the margins.= =C2=A0 Not adopting such a technology is risky.=C2=A0 git is such a technol= ogy.

Nico
--

--047d7b6242522f1ce904e8616312-- From william.atwood@concordia.ca Mon Oct 14 13:13:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A0921E8163 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZZuNm+i0ATHr for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.96.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB9621E8124 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (bill@grace.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.2.217]) by oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (envelope-from william.atwood@concordia.ca) (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id r9EKDX7U010794 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:33 -0400 Message-ID: <525C506F.2000102@concordia.ca> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:35 -0400 From: William Atwood Organization: Concordia University, Montreal User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.58 on oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca at 2013/10/14 16:13:33 EDT Subject: [xml2rfc] Missing citation X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 20:13:43 -0000 I am attempting to cite draft-ishikawa-igmp-auth-01.txt in an xml document. While the above draft exists, at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ishikawa-igmp-auth-01, the external reference: Yields the following error in XMLSpy: Unable to load external entity 'I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth'>def via 'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth.xml'. 'HTTP error: could not GET file 'public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth.xml' on server 'xml.resource.org' (404) Does anyone have any idea to whom I can turn to resolve this? Bill -- Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng. tel: +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046 Distinguished Professor Emeritus fax: +1 (514) 848-2830 Department of Computer Science and Software Engineering Concordia University EV 3.185 email:william.atwood@concordia.ca 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8 From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Oct 14 16:17:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923CF11E81A3 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.314 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.314 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uPjjeX5TN4aA for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB43721F9B8A for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [71.237.13.154]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 015D840FA9 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:23:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:17:42 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 23:17:48 -0000 The Tcl tool had support for   to force the inclusion of spaces in inline text. The Python tool does not. Is this a known issue? I see that http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/40 was closed, but it seems that only support for &wj; was added. I can probably provide a patch if needed. Peter From trac@tools.ietf.org Mon Oct 14 22:40:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B8D21F8887 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOt7+aOi2Gok for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5B611E80F9 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47678 helo=grenache.tools.ietf.org ident=www-data) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VVxMJ-0001In-WA; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:39:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "xml2rfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: jbothun@concentricsky.com, julian.reschke@gmx.de X-Trac-Project: xml2rfc Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 05:39:55 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/40#comment:3 Message-ID: <079.50a9aa501ab526691d3ddd6e34a54612@tools.ietf.org> References: <064.02cce9aee500a03d5b0a2a95af3e693f@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 40 In-Reply-To: <064.02cce9aee500a03d5b0a2a95af3e693f@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: jbothun@concentricsky.com, julian.reschke@gmx.de, sginoza@amsl.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #40: non-breaking entities don't work anymore X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 05:40:16 -0000 #40: non-breaking entities don't work anymore Comment (by julian.reschke@gmx.de): Wow. The patch looks like if the entities are evaluated *before* going through the XML parser? -- -------------------------------+--------------------------------------- Reporter: ahagens@amsl.com | Owner: jbothun@concentricsky.com Type: defect | Status: closed Priority: major | Milestone: Component: Version 2 cli | Version: Resolution: fixed | Keywords: -------------------------------+--------------------------------------- Ticket URL: xml2rfc From henrik@levkowetz.com Tue Oct 15 00:53:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3E421E81A3 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 00:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5RqtT2vLFLvO for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 00:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F3621F9CDF for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 00:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:5045:29a9:9077:e55d] (port=52642 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VVzQp-0006aP-0u; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:52:43 +0200 Message-ID: <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:52:42 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:5045:29a9:9077:e55d X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: stpeter@stpeter.im, xml2rfc@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:53:10 -0000 Hi Peter, On 2013-10-15 01:17 Peter Saint-Andre said: > The Tcl tool had support for   to force the inclusion of spaces in > inline text. The Python tool does not. Is this a known issue? Noo...; I actually thought it had that. I don't think you'll find   in the xml2rfc python code (except for a couple of comments), but I thought it would be caught and handled when the xml source was read by lxml. Worth investigating. > I see that > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/40 was closed, but > it seems that only support for &wj; was added. > > I can probably provide a patch if needed. That would be appreciated. I intend to start working on xml2rfc as soon as I'm done handling the current agenda rendering emergency in the datatracker. Best regards, Henrik From henrik@levkowetz.com Tue Oct 15 01:17:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E178511E815B for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 01:17:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXtcrO5PYlbi for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AE521F9703 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:5045:29a9:9077:e55d] (port=52793 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VVzoh-0004fX-9f; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:17:23 +0200 Message-ID: <525CFA12.90808@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:17:22 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Atwood References: <525C506F.2000102@concordia.ca> In-Reply-To: <525C506F.2000102@concordia.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:5045:29a9:9077:e55d X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: william.atwood@concordia.ca, xml2rfc@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Missing citation X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:17:28 -0000 Hi Bill, Grep'ing briefly through the old TCL code which generates the reference files, I see that it seems to be using http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt; once a draft falls out of that because it expires, no updates will presumably be done unless they are done manually. The document you reference is from 1998, and I guess it was missed when Marshall backfilled the reference library when he first created the tool and reference files. If anybody would provide a hand-crafted xml reference file for this draft, and send it to Alice and me, I'll put it in place, and things should work better. Best regards, Henrik On 2013-10-14 22:13 William Atwood said: > I am attempting to cite draft-ishikawa-igmp-auth-01.txt in an xml document. > > While the above draft exists, at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ishikawa-igmp-auth-01, the external > reference: > > "http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth.xml"> > > Yields the following error in XMLSpy: > > Unable to load external entity 'I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth'>def via > 'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth.xml'. > 'HTTP error: could not GET file > 'public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ishikawa-igmp-auth.xml' on server > 'xml.resource.org' (404) > > Does anyone have any idea to whom I can turn to resolve this? > > Bill > From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 15 07:57:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C66621E80D3 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:57:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OTgYxMIws9Yv for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4991121E81D0 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33E176806D for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=cqN3Taa7Mvv5yj4T3DWK 2xYUfu8=; b=bRKiam1eXnles9774vjCJJjXXHTGBR9v3EcAHarHDPoj0f6ZIrC8 ok5Act1M1AdwX8eJpsKkNOufyulxqHTWxAkzAqIPfqli14hNlG8oNzEzI+HqB3Ul PAkBr5zir8kMPGoCTSejF3kXfwbf/95k2XewW5rcMpUwBcrFGuIaAVA= Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37B45768059 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id b13so3573596wgh.4 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6VNBFklO2K1B+pXjwiEZ0LKrMl88eDCVIqOOK/9faT0=; b=TEWofgRFngMDJEMrtK01tAk+SlgKzhh6THCzDsJY5Y/m3lKI3H0TdvQx2FHaWliOJk bkPVCmr4NofwddgrnMTV5tKWO4ZHbHzktvLLfk4+AZ+s8L4FGnmlYV5Wc4fn3mdlY/bC RlUq7kz3TR8Bm//dzJq7AOrhMHEPLmg11JTezVTECRuHys07O4iT/0vqJXaXjrUA3Rdd NberP0TSUMa+btwBwPhbEko6ZuM9JCEDrKnkDEcyv9Tk3M7RE+/sKreICq61/3vjHvHy QV4yapqcbve+YMIt6KprHGA/9Vpd0aGvllnT4sSl9QrE7g8KBcWHt0pjj2cxIypi95j8 yqEA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.104.42 with SMTP id gb10mr34897936wjb.16.1381849018419; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.151.136 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:56:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Henrik Levkowetz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 14:57:13 -0000 I tend to define the   entity in my XML I-D sources. Well, actually, Julian's rfc2629-xhtml.ent does anyways, and I use that. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Tue Oct 15 08:02:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F3F21E81EF for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:02:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.776 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.776 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.177, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N2z-JoerWOuK for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5573A21E81E8 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ls7MZ-1VtZZM2YhD-013yhE for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:01:47 +0200 Message-ID: <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:01:46 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , Henrik Levkowetz References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:hxPZrlaxGzKKboLcxnt2EN3zx9WGIz94f3z8jyLnryD3fjTQqCq yIurFTVdFv2EpAmJGvifbhwhW7j6IJKWqvDp9zAwM1j9D9w1pMwyvNMMwNYlVSXlBAsddKx ORy2GpZ59Lk1NSev9hxzXNdrcOAUmxth+oqtkiN6jSHHrmZtEvjUvcf3YhWeoteEeHaWOzD eJEwGlF11JhiLnqfmFJDw== Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:02:13 -0000 On 2013-10-15 16:56, Nico Williams wrote: > I tend to define the   entity in my XML I-D sources. Well, > actually, Julian's rfc2629-xhtml.ent does anyways, and I use that. That's not "mine". Anyway: I'd really doesn't matter whether it's " ", "&foobar;" (with foobar previously declared in the DTD), or a literal U+0160 code point; it all should have the same effect. Best regards, Julian From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 15 08:08:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493C821E81EB for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B88bvvyAARnp for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcahe.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629FA21E81BB for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDB2438082 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=nZMupxM0D5vej/dPqVvv OcbdZQQ=; b=OMGwtCtI9cGrhxo1gwQ0kTJDkzk+QMfoHwucpDADrLGGSx9S5NPE ufqRThRD1rag8PsK6QY8sddC4929PNnGBd9W6P9iesydQMfhaVi3X9OzVhquDREF dzwp0ddnA9Y+uFwx+CFGP0qqtcztiOdJZUgU5j5NZ5n8rG/ZWUWk6X4= Received: from mail-we0-f177.google.com (mail-we0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25006438080 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id x55so8569843wes.36 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1EGfiY2bHPJILUyk5+cjk+WFsXoFfcbrCFmgpSA+S7g=; b=gSA+rxWMUVo2oq+p4cwSJGWRu75iMC+1XVMSFKPWzf3PiQNpxVmiB1Aq+lp/r6ouRo VFwBxhn6wCbI5EDf0QjK8myWSMyG7BdMJggdp+EqHncdNMEWivCw9/NGZhHxCBUQZ2J+ 9bADwftuoQ7o3FfMDy2YcPY+e976FjdhL5N7uTDZ72n286SO8mDgj88p0e38NiFsyvm2 03H2uOtCZkLf/HX7BH+R6He3oUYrB3ZUmSqnxZiqTm/C6Rhi3hgtkyGVEVg70gdzdBGr 5pNNhvBtzIxzuNfPSbduYCAZvyKZIUxRVGX72tfpqhHlntMHPX7Tp8GWFG/QxCkDAPO6 Yafg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.98.228 with SMTP id el4mr20282350wib.4.1381849690715; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.151.136 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:08:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:08:18 -0000 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-15 16:56, Nico Williams wrote: >> >> I tend to define the   entity in my XML I-D sources. Well, >> actually, Julian's rfc2629-xhtml.ent does anyways, and I use that. > > > That's not "mine". Ah, sorry. Thanks for the correction. > Anyway: I'd really doesn't matter whether it's " ", "&foobar;" (with > foobar previously declared in the DTD), or a literal U+0160 code point; it > all should have the same effect. Indeed. But I like being able to use named entities in my I-D sources (including those produced by lyx2rfc). From julian.reschke@gmx.de Tue Oct 15 08:16:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0023D11E813A for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kq99cCp+1qUN for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADCB11E8128 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M7ojs-1VjLwp19yi-00vMBg for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:15:55 +0200 Message-ID: <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:15:52 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:6LAA3U7NuxtAjfHNBFOxDYuaYZ7i6OPgi4zbXD27R+/ICGQQ8y8 qiRsLJzGlh13gDNQq6m2NUbiLHzRmrA1w7fyzb6qKkDSE9IRhEld1nr/gkUTiLDvB7D+t+g 0u8hVa+v6aFbHHjCWvk+WQKe9phFmMViNRFl6lmrO+NhzpSQSg5B4HP1juPCpTCp1mWJWtz D1mPcIhicUoA4qLoUL3Bg== Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:16:02 -0000 On 2013-10-15 17:08, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2013-10-15 16:56, Nico Williams wrote: >>> >>> I tend to define the   entity in my XML I-D sources. Well, >>> actually, Julian's rfc2629-xhtml.ent does anyways, and I use that. >> >> >> That's not "mine". > > Ah, sorry. Thanks for the correction. > >> Anyway: I'd really doesn't matter whether it's " ", "&foobar;" (with >> foobar previously declared in the DTD), or a literal U+0160 code point; it >> all should have the same effect. > > Indeed. But I like being able to use named entities in my I-D sources > (including those produced by lyx2rfc). Yes. You can do that by either including the rfc2629.dtd, or by locally declaring it (see ). Best regards, Julian From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 15 08:28:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B01921E80C0 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02uscoSsqT49 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcaid.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8B721E80C7 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D9F27BC06B for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=4J4IjNAQNXw2XH0AvqVO aDSJYk8=; b=MXObuFgji5PW1s5W5gznEnEAQ9hlS9obJcKKIK3x1LBQYkNgNhlE 1InHXrAuL7ztrLosRsK2rHLZUX+0jL7//FUcxfZ9pG+8M6C0zGtVF9nfBlZ9HSlm zBFo6gW3bvFQAoCkADNhzauq1sDjyNKRj3NQ1fM1DCVidapq09w4ss4= Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E347127BC05D for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id w62so8607610wes.35 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=4DlPIIYWrOHWAnJRroy97N27UC+IS9pxbdGVQ7KsgPs=; b=XCy5OwcEzDqApQ7WNWMTDTWxMcPLW0z3gAyqYqaLXNWYKW+H6BKjl19pXC5MjnR1+o xER4gn86Uo56zEf6s7mHNPXchZgcreowvIODXWKho+W8xPgkCzK8tDwF1bY+pt3K9KMK W+JPQWQtrWtOwvpgVWMC06HoZZuNPGcWxMqIhBPcYflf5kSAKeoh3+KI+tA1aXslRx01 z6QZ1fvj0NhrY4+EjTyLRPd8Eu/kGWZ4MJSPVqBMgIJyqmYLrDa7/tKCFdz+YDCLMcvj +jVj1lXoTNXfhRybAe4W1RPcvKPKF+YFt0gA9ILHQFk+F4VrZ1bPn8EACOyEbfjbvW3X oEog== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.198.79 with SMTP id ja15mr19915938wic.36.1381850924161; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.151.136 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:28:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:28:53 -0000 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Yes. You can do that by either including the rfc2629.dtd, or by locally > declaring it (see > ). Can the Python xml2rfc not just do that? If it can, is there any reason not to? Nico -- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Tue Oct 15 08:31:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CF821E80D5 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.731 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.731 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.132, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SHw+JpAad04x for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3430621E8155 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MWTSA-1VHC4m3pW6-00Xbls for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:31:39 +0200 Message-ID: <525D5FD5.8070502@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:31:33 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:WuGUr8w3hfRkEQNwJxEA1phk14Q20SEUOYyJugCYomIj8lmdVOn EF02LAP/MMSt5Ysu8iIm+BUtaNYrnVk00PVSyfU0yI+XpJbfcEDn3N4mNO5hLXRUK/Y7kMT hmD4P82jKmWk8zZfbeliy13nwhCN1QN2Ec+DHi0T2kN/bDpu54kHyPtt3HHzTDsUGKj5Rnk uOKEe3OrPKGasa6+MjDeg== Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:31:48 -0000 On 2013-10-15 17:28, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> Yes. You can do that by either including the rfc2629.dtd, or by locally >> declaring it (see >> ). > > Can the Python xml2rfc not just do that? If it can, is there any reason not to? > > Nico I have no idea how xml2rfc v2 works; I've never tried it. Getting the character into the document is one thing (governed by XML). Making use of it when generating plain text is a completely different question. Best regards, Julian From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 15 08:40:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE0C21E8102 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.982 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.982 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SUCa43NOO4hF for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcaid.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46C521E8082 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7D443808D for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=HMGW4p/t71MOkFSEs05N RwJwmsw=; b=fGcEM6OjrAvddSBqdILdW67TsVzPHmdeomNJzYbjdPStvKxiVgY7 PhVB+TNmoiMsIsvOCEVZJwFenYbxB4ZZPPts9YRVY1HH9bkXjIcHYOW4Lyhfu0pu r3uWwNW4VRQ9lxS6gK7HXvvwo1XLAV8z5TvoHRh1pZMWNu9OjSHm/fY= Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 688A8438082 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id i19so1280935wiw.1 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=rtx9KKehXn7dVQyeLNgHOddEHC4VZM1unLn+QQc3z5c=; b=KC05N1qwTkyuZ0VJS00jPu4jNVS0YBWV+KGGYdVBdR95OLgKaN3H68TXJn7Fn+GyUh hw59Q8DapuN3vvROH3j5+1X5V256x4JAcpVmGtmEAJxALLHG2/BNZGTx63tmnnkeJHFm WdguP8+Sco8xSij8SykCamZyMKFp7QzNDABF5nSGhlC2Wnn6WaDy6S9YpbAGZLVj6rVb 420zfwputWSd9grU4mhWmiLqPW5poggFzaghNIhIo2DdH58LwKL58JySvkD6M7hvK6FM 5Xqe2R2kZyk9ugn3iwyWmbaYqSzMxnt6867FW2Ubrl82Rtdzudv6+uLRqZD32eDzdRt1 BuqQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.94.33 with SMTP id cz1mr1759981wjb.73.1381851607301; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.151.136 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525D5FD5.8070502@gmx.de> References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> <525D5FD5.8070502@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:40:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:40:23 -0000 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Getting the character into the document is one thing (governed by XML). > Making use of it when generating plain text is a completely different > question. Ah, good point. I was thinking of various entities, many of which have no special semantics (e.g., —), but non-breaking spaces have special semantics, so indeed, they have to be implemented by xml2rfc proper. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Tue Oct 15 08:42:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4A421E81CC for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:42:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pWvk-w2g8tS for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B721E81D1 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LkBPy-1W3nh21MTq-00c86G for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:42:42 +0200 Message-ID: <525D626F.1020105@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:42:39 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> <525D5FD5.8070502@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:N3Apv9MpY/Dh60FDqxvQc8OnYf1FMBdZvwJJkSsQzQqrHx2ylU7 JL8drLpu8IzZf2nZWZ4VwfDxwZKPv50+eVusEW1iQ292MA7+pIkGCBL7ISXFlEUNM8pf4FD 0icEd0fPHD4xbnTo3p6/VN+gGVoOYcmwzDAHF9Kmh8gJJkNC/NO/NbIyQcAr754pDffwLbR eS1B6Bboxe57d9KzwiiDA== Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:42:55 -0000 On 2013-10-15 17:40, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> Getting the character into the document is one thing (governed by XML). >> Making use of it when generating plain text is a completely different >> question. > > Ah, good point. I was thinking of various entities, many of which > have no special semantics (e.g., —), but non-breaking spaces > have special semantics, so indeed, they have to be implemented by > xml2rfc proper. Well, when producing plain text, xml2rfc needs to replace it by a ASCII character (or a sequence of ASCII characters). Best regards, Julian From stpeter@stpeter.im Tue Oct 15 08:51:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF1221F9E3B for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sk23ppvpeQ-h for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43E521E80C0 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ergon.local (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5BFE40FA9; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:57:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <525D645F.8030501@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:50:55 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke References: <525C7B96.2080603@stpeter.im> <525CF44A.1080808@levkowetz.com> <525D58DA.709@gmx.de> <525D5C28.1070909@gmx.de> <525D5FD5.8070502@gmx.de> <525D626F.1020105@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <525D626F.1020105@gmx.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: XML2RFC Interest Group Subject: Re: [xml2rfc]   X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:51:12 -0000 On 10/15/13 9:42 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-15 17:40, Nico Williams wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Julian Reschke >> wrote: >>> Getting the character into the document is one thing (governed by XML). >>> Making use of it when generating plain text is a completely different >>> question. >> >> Ah, good point. I was thinking of various entities, many of which >> have no special semantics (e.g., —), but non-breaking spaces >> have special semantics, so indeed, they have to be implemented by >> xml2rfc proper. > > Well, when producing plain text, xml2rfc needs to replace it by a ASCII > character (or a sequence of ASCII characters). This seems to work for me on one computer but not another. I'll do some more testing. Sorry about the noise. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From julian.reschke@gmx.de Wed Oct 16 07:18:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43DC21F9CAD for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.933, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qwkmTqXfC8OG for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.public.resource.org (cyclone.public.resource.org [192.101.98.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AF321F9967 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by cyclone.public.resource.org (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9GEIkqJ061486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian.reschke@gmx.de) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MOTRh-1VRFPJ1lYb-005pD6 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:18:40 +0200 Message-ID: <525EA03E.50105@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:18:38 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rfc-design@rfc-editor.org" , xml2rfc References: <20131016141740.32211.39399.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20131016141740.32211.39399.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20131016141740.32211.39399.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:rqaml2Y93bKZM9jH7FtkBSMVxCKBrqV2eM0D8XskXIi0JRMF+Df d8LpHR9AdfUxVLNWts/rz/u6rEMESmoGS1o3KaHH1srIC66cbOVIgqj6vHvlEhEf5VIQY7K lSJQoGjJG7F9SjL5vO64p3Y0AWfZRp8lJmSzslAMvx56dhUmZeEOFE5+dUkmx9Y3kNi2pUT SvYoRVCC4thPhtSOe85EA== Subject: [xml2rfc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reschke-xml2rfc-00.txt X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:18:58 -0000 (FYI) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reschke-xml2rfc-00.txt Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:17:40 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Julian F. Reschke A new version of I-D, draft-reschke-xml2rfc-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Julian F. Reschke and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-reschke-xml2rfc Revision: 00 Title: The 'XML2RFC' Vocabulary Creation date: 2013-10-16 Group: Individual Submission Number of pages: 45 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reschke-xml2rfc-00.txt Status: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reschke-xml2rfc Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-xml2rfc-00 Abstract: This document defines the 'XML2RFC' vocabulary; an XML-based (Extensible Markup Language) language used for writing Internet Drafts and RFCs. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Discussion of this draft takes place on the XML2RFC mailing list (xml2rfc@ietf.org), which has its home page at . Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Mon Oct 21 04:51:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719D811E837F for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 04:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IAUIvnxYWoad for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FB711E84A7 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 04:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9LBoiBA026286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:50:45 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:50:43 +0200 Message-ID: <2406298.UXXd9SSKqF@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.11.0-12-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2302646.QVWnUysrAH"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Subject: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly with symrefs="no" X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:51:19 -0000 --nextPart2302646.QVWnUysrAH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, while using xml2rfc-2.4.2, I have discovered the following bug: The following options are set: The document uses 11 Normative Reference entries. They should be number= ed 1,=20 2, 3, ... and -- of course -- be in the same order in the bibliography= .=20 However, the order in the bibliography is 1, 10, 11, 2, 3, ... . It see= ms that=20 the sorting uses ASCII characters instead of correctly using the number= s. Removing "" finally leads to the expected resu= lt. But=20 rfc_sortrefs should only have an effect if symrefs=3D"yes" (according t= o=20 http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor14). --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart2302646.QVWnUysrAH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJlFRMACgkQ32BbsHYPLWVWhwCfW21ku3FSxd0uaXtITIk+Tleu J3oAn07X4412wf1DFR6JPRcqGIy+81pY =XbmF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2302646.QVWnUysrAH-- From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Mon Oct 21 05:00:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D7011E83B3 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kidL9HLPmUdb for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0AB11E8385 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9LC0Zqx028469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:00:36 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:00:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1382363208.rD0S2e8Brv@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.11.0-12-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2793383.v78mUqH6nG"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Subject: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug: wrong cross-references in HTML output X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 12:00:44 -0000 --nextPart2793383.v78mUqH6nG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, I tried to generate an HTML document with "". Th= e=20 document references an RFC, which in my case gets the reference "[2]". = The=20 HTML code generated by xml2rfc-2.4.2 is: "is defined as RFC in [2]" However, in the References section, the resulting HTML code is: [2] Lei, P., Ong, L., Tuexen, M. and=20 T. Dreibholz, "An= Overview=20 of Reliable Server Pooling Protocols", RFC 5351, September 2008. That is, the text links to "RFC5351", but the anchor in the References = section=20 is "2". The anchor in the text should therefore either be "RFC5351" or = the=20 link in the text should point to "2". --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart2793383.v78mUqH6nG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJlF2IACgkQ32BbsHYPLWXKkgCcDYS8v+K1fUbhJQAkv80g7+iZ UicAnR6t+cswBYnVU+G41xOVWv7I3Idc =d98H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2793383.v78mUqH6nG-- From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Mon Oct 21 05:05:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6781E11E84AF for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X47emKaEkaOH for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5079111E8501 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9LC3g8U029096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:03:43 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:03:42 +0200 Message-ID: <13427315.87vppqeT6c@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.11.0-12-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <1382363208.rD0S2e8Brv@nordmarka.simula.nornet> References: <1382363208.rD0S2e8Brv@nordmarka.simula.nornet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart10558717.pgtiLNMy3a"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug: wrong cross-references in HTML output X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 12:05:10 -0000 --nextPart10558717.pgtiLNMy3a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mandag 21. oktober 2013 14.00.34 skrev Thomas Dreibholz: > Hi, >=20 > I tried to generate an HTML document with "". = The > document references an RFC, which in my case gets the reference "[2]"= . The > HTML code generated by xml2rfc-2.4.2 is: > "is defined as RFC in [2]" >=20 > However, in the References section, the resulting HTML code is: > [2] > > Lei, P., Ong, L., Tuexen, M.= and > T. Dreibholz, "= An > Overview of Reliable Server Pooling Protocols", RFC 5351, Septemb= er > 2008. >=20 > That is, the text links to "RFC5351", but the anchor in the Reference= s > section is "2". The anchor in the text should therefore either be "RF= C5351" > or the link in the text should point to "2". Only the first solution would work. Using "2" (as it is generated in th= e=20 References section now) results in the W3C validator to report an error= : Error at line 640, character 16: value of attribute "id" invalid: "2" cannot start a name That is, the "" generation needs to be fixed. --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart10558717.pgtiLNMy3a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJlGB4ACgkQ32BbsHYPLWUfGgCghYNF2UBsho5e4y11jsNJYfsV X/0AoJGfMS0vDJLhL2jJMAIf/VIqaS+W =CD9P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart10558717.pgtiLNMy3a-- From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Mon Oct 21 05:13:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481CC11E8501 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1IhrezsOQE3U for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BA811E84FB for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 05:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9LCDG1M031647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:13:17 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: xml2rfc@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:13:16 +0200 Message-ID: <39502305.rHzntxYTph@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.11.0-12-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3162441.KFYu3oSDAk"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Subject: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug: invalid HTML code generation for non-breakable spaces in the title text X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 12:13:30 -0000 --nextPart3162441.KFYu3oSDAk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, here is another xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug in the HTML generation: Example code: The Applicability of Reliable Se= rver=20 Pooling (RSerPool) for Virtual Network Function Resource Pooling&n= bsp; (VNFPOOL) This is the HTML output:

The Applicability of Reliable Server Pooling=C2 = ;(RSerPool)=20 for Virtual Network Function Resource Pooling=C2 (VNFPOOL)
draft-dreibholz-vnfpool-rserpool- applic-00.txt

That is, instead of just using " ", also an "=C2"-letter is insert= ed=20 before. In the plain text output, everything is okay. --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart3162441.KFYu3oSDAk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJlGlwACgkQ32BbsHYPLWXZGQCgyshondHr1ShWcSMMb82z2GVh Vm8AoKpB4VdD0AP9b3oaab0yBVw1CaqE =OZiM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3162441.KFYu3oSDAk-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Oct 21 07:26:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8120B11E85E4 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id enevbt-2Dshb for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FDB11E83C2 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15792025A for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 777A5A9042; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63622B8EBE for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:25:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [xml2rfc] keeping figures on a single page X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:26:40 -0000 Is there a way to keep an (ascii) figure from breaking across pages in the .txt output? It seems that this should be the default. I am using 2.4.2. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Mon Oct 21 09:15:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0311F11E81D1 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVLocCRrfjXn for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B82421F9EB6 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.235.154] ([79.109.233.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LlYrb-1W6nvp2J1D-00bKQh for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:14:46 +0200 Message-ID: <526552DD.4070503@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:14:21 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Dreibholz , xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <1382363208.rD0S2e8Brv@nordmarka.simula.nornet> In-Reply-To: <1382363208.rD0S2e8Brv@nordmarka.simula.nornet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:gaItS5Ao+ci5oRYojtN5NbEfDJgRQeUQbNYHwXbttN+73t714XP OEGNTxNM+kgrCn3sWub17hYMmACFqcjmk4ivB4BoKHoF8tfs7QrDCC+KOlPgp++eOkmjF9D S0f2ZpXsyLl9d+ET6CIbFcaSNM7THyrSgnSOX6XVfH8FLZL0EWH1RToqMzQReFabMypAXPr Czfv/6Tsh3HHTVIqMuMIg== Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc-2.4.2 bug: wrong cross-references in HTML output X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:15:20 -0000 On 2013-10-21 14:00, Thomas Dreibholz wrote: > Hi, > > I tried to generate an HTML document with "". The > document references an RFC, which in my case gets the reference "[2]". The > HTML code generated by xml2rfc-2.4.2 is: > "is defined as RFC in [2]" > > However, in the References section, the resulting HTML code is: > [2] > > Lei, P., Ong, L., Tuexen, M. and > T. Dreibholz, "An Overview > of Reliable Server Pooling Protocols", RFC 5351, September 2008. > > That is, the text links to "RFC5351", but the anchor in the References section > is "2". The anchor in the text should therefore either be "RFC5351" or the > link in the text should point to "2". ...where "2" would be an illegal value for "id". Best regards, Julian From henrik@levkowetz.com Mon Oct 21 09:28:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116C211E828B for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xx8Ohe2nYSjI for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0724211E85E1 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52953 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VYIKv-0001rT-HQ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:28:09 +0200 Message-ID: <52655619.4020409@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:28:09 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <10405.1382365559@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <10405.1382365559@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mcr@sandelman.ca, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] keeping figures on a single page X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:28:27 -0000 Hi Michael, On 2013-10-21 16:25 Michael Richardson said the following: > > Is there a way to keep an (ascii) figure from breaking across pages > in the .txt output? It seems that this should be the default. This is controlled by a processing instruction which by default is on. If so, it will try to keep figures and tables from breaking across pages. It may not do a perfect job of it, and if you have an example which isn't handled correctly, it would be good to see it. Best regards, Henrik From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Oct 21 13:44:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740AA11E83EA for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:44:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.035 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.035 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.564, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IAKSIdbpfLxW for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64AD11E8423 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC16420170; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7563CA9042; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6821D63AED; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:44:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Henrik Levkowetz In-Reply-To: <52655619.4020409@levkowetz.com> References: <10405.1382365559@sandelman.ca> <52655619.4020409@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] keeping figures on a single page X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:44:17 -0000 Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On 2013-10-21 16:25 Michael Richardson said the following: >> >> Is there a way to keep an (ascii) figure from breaking across pages >> in the .txt output? It seems that this should be the default. > This is controlled by a processing instruction > which by default is on. If so, it will try to keep figures and tables > from breaking across pages. It may not do a perfect job of it, and if > you have an example which isn't handled correctly, it would be good to > see it. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-security-threats/ figure 1, page 5/6. I have no autobreaks setting in my xml file. I added: to my file, and re-ran, diff is identical (except for today's date). -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From william.atwood@concordia.ca Mon Oct 21 13:51:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D74311E8416 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mTmyQfxhyFy for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.96.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E377411E81FD for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (bill@grace.encs.concordia.ca [132.205.2.217]) by oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca (envelope-from william.atwood@concordia.ca) (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id r9LKp3tB006413 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:51:03 -0400 Message-ID: <526593B9.6010903@concordia.ca> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:51:05 -0400 From: William Atwood Organization: Concordia University, Montreal User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc@ietf.org References: <10405.1382365559@sandelman.ca> <52655619.4020409@levkowetz.com> <21598.1382388244@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <21598.1382388244@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.58 on oldperseverance.encs.concordia.ca at 2013/10/21 16:51:03 EDT Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] keeping figures on a single page X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:51:16 -0000 Another example: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-atwood-mboned-mrac-req Pages 6, 7. The xml is also posted to the repository, or I can send it to whomever wants it. The Bill On 21/10/2013 4:44 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > On 2013-10-21 16:25 Michael Richardson said the following: > >> > >> Is there a way to keep an (ascii) figure from breaking across pages > >> in the .txt output? It seems that this should be the default. > > > This is controlled by a processing instruction > > which by default is on. If so, it will try to keep figures and tables > > from breaking across pages. It may not do a perfect job of it, and if > > you have an example which isn't handled correctly, it would be good to > > see it. > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-roll-security-threats/ > figure 1, page 5/6. > > I have no autobreaks setting in my xml file. > I added: > > > to my file, and re-ran, diff is identical (except for today's date). > -- Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng. tel: +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046 Distinguished Professor Emeritus fax: +1 (514) 848-2830 Department of Computer Science and Software Engineering Concordia University EV 3.185 email:william.atwood@concordia.ca 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8 From arusso@amsl.com Tue Oct 22 06:10:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B4411E8392 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cnCSY4sDRuGL for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5433311E8378 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0CAA60FE; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c9a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kS8Yyu6NgB6N; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.12] (107-211-192-25.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net [107.211.192.25]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13AEFA60F6; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Alice Russo In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:10:16 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7C6631B4-9800-4BB6-9EAD-4F1C900B43E7@amsl.com> References: To: Randall Gellens X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) Cc: xml2rfc list Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc barfs on 'target' that starts with a number X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:10:23 -0000 Randall, For xml2rfc v2, this has been reported here: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/160 Re: the xml2rfc FAQ, it's about v1 (which allowed an initial number in = an anchor); it has not been updated for v2. Thanks, Alice On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Randall Gellens wrote: > Hi, >=20 > In the XML2RFC FAQ section 3.7 = (http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor15) gives an example of = how to make a reference to a URL, and specifically uses "=20 > As it happens, I needed to reference 3GPP, and I also used "=20 > --=20 > Randall Gellens > Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself = only > -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- > There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's something wrong with > the universe. --'Dr. Beverly Crusher' in ST:TNG _Remember Me_. >=20 From trac@tools.ietf.org Tue Oct 22 06:28:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D2F11E838D for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnYZfl3DBdv1 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A966A11E81B2 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59859 helo=grenache.tools.ietf.org ident=www-data) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VYc0j-0002Av-6z; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:28:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "xml2rfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: henrik@levkowetz.com, arusso@amsl.com X-Trac-Project: xml2rfc Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:28:37 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/160#comment:1 Message-ID: <093.797e2b3a122f397b5c0c23c13be59bd7@tools.ietf.org> References: <078.ff6c7c339264b561aa024ba29acd9edf@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 160 In-Reply-To: <078.ff6c7c339264b561aa024ba29acd9edf@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: henrik@levkowetz.com, arusso@amsl.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #160: The 3GPP reference bibxml can't be used X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:28:40 -0000 #160: The 3GPP reference bibxml can't be used Comment (by arusso@amsl.com): Just a confirmation of what Magnus reported -- v2 does not allow an anchor that starts with a numeral. Not only will 3GPP references from the citation library give the error "Syntax of value for attribute anchor of reference is not valid", but also any other anchor that begins with a numeral. For example, generating references such as the following would not be possible using v2. (They are from RFC 6144 and RFC 6782, respectively). {{{ [6NET] 6NET Consortium, "6NET", . [464XLAT] Mawatari, M., Kawashima, M., and C. Byrne, "464XLAT: Combination of Stateful and Stateless Translation", Work in Progress, September 2012. }}} -- ---------------------------------------------+----------------------------- Reporter: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com | Owner: Type: defect | henrik@levkowetz.com Priority: medium | Status: new Component: Version 2 cli | Milestone: Resolution: | Version: 2.3.10 | Keywords: ---------------------------------------------+----------------------------- Ticket URL: xml2rfc From tony@att.com Tue Oct 22 08:10:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160B311E83F0 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.306 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.306 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SCIM+Z3a7Qg8 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlpi046.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (egssmtp01.att.com [144.160.112.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696BF11E84AA for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by egssmtp01.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9MFAQgc011482 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:10:26 -0500 Received: from [130.10.96.210] (vpn-130-10-96-210.vpn.swst.att.com[130.10.96.210]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20131022151023gw100q0g97e> (Authid: tony); Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:10:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [130.10.96.210] Message-ID: <5266955B.3050701@att.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:10:19 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: xml2rfc list References: <7C6631B4-9800-4BB6-9EAD-4F1C900B43E7@amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <7C6631B4-9800-4BB6-9EAD-4F1C900B43E7@amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020905090304050806080204" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc barfs on 'target' that starts with a number X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:10:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020905090304050806080204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I updated the FAQ. Working on the actual reference files will take longer. Sounds like a good project for me at the code sprint. Tony On 10/22/2013 9:10 AM, Alice Russo wrote: > Randall, > > For xml2rfc v2, this has been reported here: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/160 > > Re: the xml2rfc FAQ, it's about v1 (which allowed an initial number in an anchor); it has not been updated for v2. > > Thanks, > Alice > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Randall Gellens wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> In the XML2RFC FAQ section 3.7 (http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor15) gives an example of how to make a reference to a URL, and specifically uses "> >> As it happens, I needed to reference 3GPP, and I also used " I updated the FAQ. Working on the actual reference files will take longer. Sounds like a good project for me at the code sprint.

    Tony

On 10/22/2013 9:10 AM, Alice Russo wrote:
Randall,

For xml2rfc v2, this has been reported here:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/160

Re: the xml2rfc FAQ, it's about v1 (which allowed an initial number in an anchor); it has not been updated for v2.

Thanks,
Alice

On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:


Hi,

In the XML2RFC FAQ section 3.7 (http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor15) gives an example of how to make a reference to a URL, and specifically uses "<reference anchor="3GPP" ... "

As it happens, I needed to reference 3GPP, and I also used "<reference anchor="3GPP" ... " but kept getting syntax errors. After much frustration, I realized that the FAQ is wrong, and that XML2RFC barfs if target starts with a letter.  Changing it to "<reference anchor="SDO-3GPP" ... " make it compile.

--------------020905090304050806080204-- From randy@qti.qualcomm.com Mon Oct 21 23:15:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3404B11E847D for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.57 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.57 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0cAAT43qmtFM for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabertooth02.qualcomm.com (sabertooth02.qualcomm.com [65.197.215.38]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921FC11E847C for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:15:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; 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Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:15:31 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:15:29 -0700 To: , From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:38:55 -0700 Subject: [xml2rfc] xml2rfc barfs on 'target' that starts with a number X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 06:15:49 -0000 Hi, In the XML2RFC FAQ section 3.7 (http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor15) gives an example of how to make a reference to a URL, and specifically uses " X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5457211E81F0 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XONfSrimHe3I for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAB721F9E3A for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.235.154] ([79.109.233.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MFxwA-1VSbEA0tcc-00EyAB for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:37:24 +0200 Message-ID: <5266A9B5.30308@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:37:09 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: xml2rfc issue tracker , henrik@levkowetz.com, arusso@amsl.com References: <078.ff6c7c339264b561aa024ba29acd9edf@tools.ietf.org> <093.797e2b3a122f397b5c0c23c13be59bd7@tools.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <093.797e2b3a122f397b5c0c23c13be59bd7@tools.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:OSP8+fDi6XWgi+llUt4A2/V+TUyqm31UkBSeOgK84S64lzfy3Zx 65Zu+LkNglisOLB0ChSg1hYM5x31Wpfj3LWus813gNZZDFCC/EMs6SquxqEMLaHVO5KwuXL cnY1++OmKuayYWeylhcKh3xwVxHnDEeMwFz5edndOi5/h/0JX6lXPtia+Ib3lT8Cu5nfpBA 6JwmbKdGjiCyEfuG3icHg== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] #160: The 3GPP reference bibxml can't be used X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:37:42 -0000 On 2013-10-22 15:28, xml2rfc issue tracker wrote: > #160: The 3GPP reference bibxml can't be used > > > Comment (by arusso@amsl.com): > > Just a confirmation of what Magnus reported -- v2 does not allow an anchor > that starts with a numeral. Not only will 3GPP references from the *XML* doesn't allow it. xml2rfc v1 was broken in tht it tolerated invalid input. Best regards, Julian From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Fri Oct 25 07:49:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D576211E8153 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwYUSVDP-YGv for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105C111E8314 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9PEmxSu003714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:49:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:48:59 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <470EBF2E-F64B-438B-9A30-7EAAA56339B7@vpnc.org> References: To: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1816) Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] xml2rfc borked on Mavericks? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:49:05 -0000 On Oct 24, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > I can=92t get the shiny new Python xml2rfc to run on Mavericks; if = this is working for anyone else I=92ll assume it is one of the Google = customizations getting in my way. I tried with a homebrew-installed = python too; either way, it blows up on a missing XML library. Broken here too: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/bin/xml2rfc", line 4, in import pkg_resources File = "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/Extras/lib/pytho= n/pkg_resources.py", line 2607, in parse_requirements(__requires__), Environment() File = "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/Extras/lib/pytho= n/pkg_resources.py", line 565, in resolve raise DistributionNotFound(req) # XXX put more info here pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: xml2rfc=3D=3D2.4.0 xml2rfc returned 1 --Paul Hoffman From jabley@hopcount.ca Fri Oct 25 08:52:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9B011E818E for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iqM+GL4nTJOD for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qe0-x234.google.com (mail-qe0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A4211E8155 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qe0-f52.google.com with SMTP id w7so2464908qeb.39 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=suMqFUtra+oEVDoMCdS4t+sDLKVTDCE78agJMGMHw38=; b=BmIXaQv2JIgnzN44qn3iBvjdgA2uWJUZ0m3mYM5CILRoPKxrPyzTt9D3/GgsQ8MkZL l1iiXjCrBXJMgweieuYKsbzTZs3+Y3VJU/KwURYjmOZU7hHasReZMfETJpt43OgRVkQ+ jY0GpqLzqgL6heK9O0kgzwVnyM86HwXarTCwU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=suMqFUtra+oEVDoMCdS4t+sDLKVTDCE78agJMGMHw38=; b=VYvSBwWZP3bHsNXgPwpoz5ofHlcujau4+biSPlBywPwnI+tOzfYlXVN2trdJJdQuBg u85UXY6R+tF+415KG6OTTz83LgUCdMGEvE4aMnjiWA0b16joN0kfatQyhERtsQXlhbwb lf3Uqf8pgXg8FktEt5BOuAmnoy6E04DftgsnWmFI2vf+SV7zEryNmxI9z0nx4Vh/qWNE 5h0Gba+wxA2YjfMgjaWUOEkX71vAMH63OocmiP2Iz6oaU9qkVd2pUtuXZc6R4RK7Bkfr qalWVNkT0V0Uk93HH4IFwYz/99cZv5AKfFDA/eXWqO1MCRZq2sdUT6kZHNVAX5QT+m6z qNfA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmPnMOw8GT30OU/LikmcTmeEYxSZJxOB0p1CqhfwPel1hyRsUeMO8lHsucqsutsIqjmCdEN X-Received: by 10.49.101.8 with SMTP id fc8mr11452310qeb.31.1382716368599; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [199.212.90.37] (135-23-68-78.cpe.pppoe.ca. [135.23.68.78]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id r1sm20622773qam.4.2013.10.25.08.52.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F9B45939-7E05-4469-A0C2-7839778D54F0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <470EBF2E-F64B-438B-9A30-7EAAA56339B7@vpnc.org> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 11:52:45 -0400 Message-Id: References: <470EBF2E-F64B-438B-9A30-7EAAA56339B7@vpnc.org> To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1816) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] xml2rfc borked on Mavericks? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 15:52:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F9B45939-7E05-4469-A0C2-7839778D54F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 2013-10-25, at 10:48, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On Oct 24, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Tim Bray wrote: >=20 >> I can=92t get the shiny new Python xml2rfc to run on Mavericks; if = this is working for anyone else I=92ll assume it is one of the Google = customizations getting in my way. I tried with a homebrew-installed = python too; either way, it blows up on a missing XML library. >=20 > Broken here too: >=20 > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/local/bin/xml2rfc", line 4, in > import pkg_resources > File = "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/Extras/lib/pytho= n/pkg_resources.py", line 2607, in > parse_requirements(__requires__), Environment() > File = "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/Extras/lib/pytho= n/pkg_resources.py", line 565, in resolve > raise DistributionNotFound(req) # XXX put more info here > pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: xml2rfc=3D=3D2.4.0 > xml2rfc returned 1 Works perfectly well for me, installed via a freshly-built macports on a = clean Mavericks/Xcode install. Happy to diff what I have against what you have, in case that helps = someone. Joe --Apple-Mail=_F9B45939-7E05-4469-A0C2-7839778D54F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlJqk80ACgkQNI8MvYZSOiyEJACeJ/XI+CiPW+Afj1RMzw3fcRLN v20AnRI5pCA83GOPR7ppdczu0B+j3FxV =fTh1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F9B45939-7E05-4469-A0C2-7839778D54F0-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Fri Oct 25 09:17:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18F311E834C for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cJKSeMyhjRER for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464FA11E832A for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9PGH9Gt006973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:17:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:17:08 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D246F62-4D6B-4DB2-86F2-D372ECC39A53@vpnc.org> References: <470EBF2E-F64B-438B-9A30-7EAAA56339B7@vpnc.org> To: Joe Abley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1816) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [rfc-i] xml2rfc borked on Mavericks? X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:17:13 -0000 Thanks. It turns out that I had a version mismatch for xml2rfc, and that = error message was supposed to indicate it. Now fixed with: sudo pip install --upgrade xml2rfc --Paul Hoffman= From trac@tools.ietf.org Fri Oct 25 14:19:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65D811E81EC for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QLC+CcTjuugQ for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20A111E81B8 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35504 helo=grenache.tools.ietf.org ident=www-data) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VZon8-0006S5-6u; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 23:19:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "xml2rfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.3 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.3, by Edgewall Software To: henrik@levkowetz.com, arusso@amsl.com X-Trac-Project: xml2rfc Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:19:34 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/203 Message-ID: <063.eef26ca5235648d119f1a5dc9530ef43@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 203 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: henrik@levkowetz.com, arusso@amsl.com, sginoza@amsl.com, xml2rfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, sginoza@amsl.com Subject: [xml2rfc] #203: indentation of texttable changes (txt vs nroff output) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:19:36 -0000 #203: indentation of texttable changes (txt vs nroff output) The v2 text output does not match v2 nroff output (then made into text). The table is shifted slightly to the right and the title is no longer centered. This is shown in the attached files, e.g., look at Table 2 in the rfcdiff file. Ideally, the v2 nroff output should create text that matches the v2 text output. Perhaps this is related to #194 (regarding indentation of figures). v2 text output: {{{ +---------+-----------------+ | Value | Semantics | +---------+-----------------+ | 0..19 | (Unassigned) | | | | | 20 | False | | | | | 21 | True | | | | | 22 | Null | | | | | 23 | Undefined value | | | | | 24..31 | (Reserved) | | | | | 32..255 | (Unassigned) | +---------+-----------------+ Table 2: Simple Values }}} text made from v2 nroff output: {{{ +---------+-----------------+ | Value | Semantics | +---------+-----------------+ | 0..19 | (Unassigned) | | | | | 20 | False | | | | | 21 | True | | | | | 22 | Null | | | | | 23 | Undefined value | | | | | 24..31 | (Reserved) | | | | | 32..255 | (Unassigned) | +---------+-----------------+ Table 2: Simple Values }}} -- ---------------------------------+---------------------------------- Reporter: arusso@amsl.com | Owner: henrik@levkowetz.com Type: defect | Status: new Priority: medium | Milestone: Component: Version 2 cli nroff | Version: 2.4.x Keywords: | ---------------------------------+---------------------------------- Ticket URL: xml2rfc From ietf@augustcellars.com Wed Oct 30 16:35:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7083211E82C6 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.754 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.754 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.644, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hkU3MzhUGuKu for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFBE11E8295 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Philemon (50-39-216-54.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.216.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jimsch@nwlink.com) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F27022C9FB for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Schaad" To: Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:33:26 -0700 Message-ID: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac7Vx+XtD7ec61rxRZirhiZ1DQXyng== Content-Language: en-us Subject: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 23:35:05 -0000 One of the things that I was thinking about as a project for the code sprint was to implement the ability to do vanity reference tagging. In doing this I do not want to touch the reference itself, because then one cannot use the references on the web site for that purpose. I can see two ways that this can be done 1. Use a new ?rfc command along the lines of Or 2. Insert a new item in the DTD either in the headers or the references section which has the same information. You should be able to use either of the tags as a target for a reference with the code emitting a consistent tag. Comments? Jim From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Wed Oct 30 16:42:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCCB21E809D for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:42:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wzw-Y5gxNBUw for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D48D11E8289 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9UNep57087227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:40:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:40:51 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1816) Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 23:42:11 -0000 On Oct 30, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Jim Schaad wrote: > One of the things that I was thinking about as a project for the code = sprint > was to implement the ability to do vanity reference tagging. In doing = this > I do not want to touch the reference itself, because then one cannot = use the > references on the web site for that purpose. >=20 > I can see two ways that this can be done >=20 > 1. Use a new ?rfc command along the lines of use"SMIME"?> >=20 > Or >=20 > 2. Insert a new item in the DTD either in the headers or the = references > section which has the same information. >=20 > You should be able to use either of the tags as a target for a = reference > with the code emitting a consistent tag. The XML DTD for the future will be changing, and will be incorporating = some of the ideas you mention here. See the announcement sent to the = rfc-interest list earlier today, and definitely come to the BoF. There are probably other tasks with longer applicability that you can = find at the sprint. --Paul Hoffman= From nico@cryptonector.com Wed Oct 30 18:29:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3229521F9F7F for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O7S-qM1-8dUC for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdcahe.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D3B21F9FA4 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7879F2005D10C; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:29:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=cL+FD9gCE92mRv mWFMZCb51YPC4=; b=Bm8dCSJWn1Dr3/uAWynoEibmcmmS+LWVMA8YwbdrU48NVT HM7/wzEgNMhsw9iX8aYKESOgMEWgwmSZutjOeME04i0bxyHLcwKg1ktSPNo3DLn/ G7lqp1oRRjz/P9gcq37FBb0Af4laJqGlOfjB0uR6uhobQuAlKbuyFRP1n60xE= Received: from gmail.com (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC63D2005D108; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:29:04 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Jim Schaad Message-ID: <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 01:29:21 -0000 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 04:33:26PM -0700, Jim Schaad wrote: > One of the things that I was thinking about as a project for the code sprint > was to implement the ability to do vanity reference tagging. In doing this > I do not want to touch the reference itself, because then one cannot use the > references on the web site for that purpose. Yes, this. I've long wanted vanity reference names. > I can see two ways that this can be done My initial inclination is to prefer #2, however, one could do this with XSLT and keep all of this external to xml2rfc, and thinking of it that way, #1 seems more correct: we're rewriting part of the doc automatically, and that feels more like a directive. Nico -- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Thu Oct 31 00:08:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D94611E8219 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HiOR30Javbl9 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD0811E8318 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([84.187.44.53]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MarAM-1VLuQk0Gvy-00KR0q for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:07:52 +0100 Message-ID: <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:07:48 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , Jim Schaad References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:2ZRgdUBhCC8wFCqi90NVi7n1erWAq4+g6UT87mxcM7tyAzx/YJs qozSm83d1xoVPc3QBSeklpZZJTqud8jD83qs4YyyC0Qa/A7JFRfiFQnw/JheVcA4VVgr2am XgEL5Hm5jUr+TodI61eHEpK9DO6RpWIRNJm0zxxoozndFdDeL7ZFW0uUlP48cYwYjv9ZT1g LBk6xXC9rxdTSOFiIyVAw== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:08:03 -0000 On 2013-10-31 02:29, Nico Williams wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 04:33:26PM -0700, Jim Schaad wrote: >> One of the things that I was thinking about as a project for the code sprint >> was to implement the ability to do vanity reference tagging. In doing this >> I do not want to touch the reference itself, because then one cannot use the >> references on the web site for that purpose. > > Yes, this. I've long wanted vanity reference names. > >> I can see two ways that this can be done > > My initial inclination is to prefer #2, however, one could do this with > XSLT and keep all of this external to xml2rfc, and thinking of it that > way, #1 seems more correct: we're rewriting part of the doc > automatically, and that feels more like a directive. No, by any means, don't put stuff like that into processing directives. There already is a trac ticket with respect to this feature: Best regards, Julian From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Oct 31 00:30:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482C111E80FC for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.252, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1pEbd28rO3UN for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C3711E80E6 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id r9V7SQ1e027694; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:28:26 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0263_d55e_08387408_41fe_11e3_866d_001e6722eec2; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:28:25 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA197BF4BB; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:28:25 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <5272068B.7090507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:28:11 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: [xml2rfc] Understandable Reference Tags (was: Re: Vanity Reference Tags) X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:30:29 -0000 I changed the subject because I think "vanity" is the wrong word here. Using [SMIME] instead of [RFC5652], for the majority of readers, is an usability feature. I hope that makes it clear that I'd appreciate this feature. On 2013/10/31 16:07, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-31 02:29, Nico Williams wrote: >> My initial inclination is to prefer #2, however, one could do this with >> XSLT and keep all of this external to xml2rfc, and thinking of it that >> way, #1 seems more correct: we're rewriting part of the doc >> automatically, and that feels more like a directive. > > No, by any means, don't put stuff like that into processing directives. Fully agreed. PIs (processing instructions) are a leftover from SGML, and at W3C, we had (and I guess have) a longstanding policy of not using them (the XML stylesheet PI is the exception that proves the rule). There are all kinds of good reasons for this, but I'd have to go and dig out mails from 10 or more years ago to help me remember them; I didn't have any need recently to argue against them. But in this specific case, it's very clear: the "SMIME" is textual content that appears in the final document, and such content should not come from PIs. > There already is a trac ticket with respect to this feature: > The title of that ticket reads "reference for an STD or BCP that contains multiple RFCs". I'm rather sure that's not what Jim's request is about. It may be that some of the implementation solutions for that ticket would be usable for what we are talking about here, too, but that would be accidental. So unless you mistyped the ticket number, we should create another ticket so that the feature is clearly tracked. Regards, Martin. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Thu Oct 31 01:03:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A67511E81C1 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 01:03:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3uLTfKSSi+E for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 01:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9B911E8168 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 01:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.117] ([84.187.44.53]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MWTSA-1V8kpM3umI-00XePE for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:03:15 +0100 Message-ID: <52720EBB.3030708@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:03:07 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> <5272068B.7090507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <5272068B.7090507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qKOAZyyWKSdKBvwHhaW9hbXMBQnqvlLrWk187RAwf8FFo0wAdBj wu1NfmBmarCs1MNiynNLBXscZIxt+wLBQvFHgkoJfJXaysBc7o7kXSLWuU0xQSqSdsbcdEd ggzxG/tL9iPd//1dcPfoQl6/EsTtnMKvmy1toIjgEaE9iaqRc3QVPbpPQ0KxMqcRDHBR0kx tvHE/96jtpWn8ZffKcFsQ== Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Understandable Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:03:26 -0000 On 2013-10-31 08:28, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: > ... >> There already is a trac ticket with respect to this feature: >> > > The title of that ticket reads "reference for an STD or BCP that > contains multiple RFCs". I'm rather sure that's not what Jim's request > is about. It may be that some of the implementation solutions for that > ticket would be usable for what we are talking about here, too, but that > would be accidental. So unless you mistyped the ticket number, we should > create another ticket so that the feature is clearly tracked. > ... The proposal in the ticket would address the target renaming use case as well... Best regards, Julian From ietf@augustcellars.com Thu Oct 31 22:46:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F59611E82E2 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id exSURFUYbFFP for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E6A11E819C for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Philemon (74-92-231-62-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [74.92.231.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jimsch@nwlink.com) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE80E2CA06; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Schaad" To: "'Julian Reschke'" , "'Nico Williams'" References: <017f01ced5c8$6fe72d80$4fb58880$@augustcellars.com> <20131031012901.GB6199@gmail.com> <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <527201C4.3040604@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:44:10 -0700 Message-ID: <02b001ced6c5$6af53800$40dfa800$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKwnguceg3P+l+an8lJGjnHv8GNzwKAWJRlAf/F3v+YKEvCQA== Content-Language: en-us Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:46:09 -0000 Julian, Having read the data tracker item, from an XML point of view this makes perfect sense as a way to do things. >From a usability point of view I think that the approach outlined makes things difficult. 1. Consider if I create an entity reference for BCP0101 and use that directly. Either the file needs to include the set of references in total, or I am now going to get a series of undefined references that I cannot find a reason to exist in my original document. For RFCs this is not a big issue, for other standards documents this may be a problem as I would not necessarily know what they reference. 2. This makes it difficult for me to have a single file in which I keep track of all of my vanity tags that I use. Instead I will need a new file for each different tag. Using a directive of some type would allow for a single file to be included and then the contents would be used in the event that I actually include and use the reference in question. 3. Based on what is given in the ticket, there is an interesting question if one has a reference to BCP9 and one also has a reference to RFC 5657 that is independent. Should both of these items be different references so that when an aggregation is done the tags on the inner references are hidden and the document would be included in the references twice, once as part of the BCP9 and once as an independent document Since this is not fully ironed out I may or may not look at this on Saturday, will think about it. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Reschke [mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 12:08 AM > To: Nico Williams; Jim Schaad > Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Vanity Reference Tags > > On 2013-10-31 02:29, Nico Williams wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 04:33:26PM -0700, Jim Schaad wrote: > >> One of the things that I was thinking about as a project for the code > >> sprint was to implement the ability to do vanity reference tagging. > >> In doing this I do not want to touch the reference itself, because > >> then one cannot use the references on the web site for that purpose. > > > > Yes, this. I've long wanted vanity reference names. > > > >> I can see two ways that this can be done > > > > My initial inclination is to prefer #2, however, one could do this > > with XSLT and keep all of this external to xml2rfc, and thinking of it > > that way, #1 seems more correct: we're rewriting part of the doc > > automatically, and that feels more like a directive. > > No, by any means, don't put stuff like that into processing directives. > > There already is a trac ticket with respect to this feature: > > > Best regards, Julian