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From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 12:54:26 -0700
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Subject: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.11.0
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.11.0, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.11.0) ietf; urgency=medium

  This release is a result of the issue discussions on xml2rfc-dev, and
  attempt to follow the discussion and projected resolution of issues #36-#40.
  This results in a number of incompatibilities with previous releases, with
  respect to the v3 tools, as expected.  The v2 tools are unaffected.
  Details:

  * Changed the default table alignment to 'center', in order to match v2.

  * Changed the <dl> 'hanging' attribute name to 'newline', based on the 
    discussion of issue #38, in the schema, v2v3 converter and text formatter.

  * Added an attribute 'indent' to <dl> in the schema, according to the 
    discussion of issue #39.  Added v2v3 and text support for the same.

  * Added markers='true' in the v2v3 converter for sourcecode with markers,
    and tweaked render_sourcecode() to honour the 'markers' setting.

  * Removed the disallowed align attribute on sourcecode.

  * Removed <br> from the schema, according to the resolution of issue #37.

  * Tweaked the handling of the document title to only reflow if needed, 
    with some refactoring.

  * Corrected the handling of the align attribute on <artwork> and <figure>.

  * Changed <prepTime> to hold an RFC 3339 timestamp with seconds 
    resolution.

  * Fixed a couple of issues with v2v3 conversion warnings, and added 
    source line information for all elements created during conversion.

  * Fixed a buglet in sourcode rendering.

  * Added a warning about lxml versions that lack validation error xpath 
    information, and tweaked the warn() method.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  06 Oct 2018 19:23:40 +0000

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.11.0'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 20:56:07 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
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Hi,

I've submitted some minutes ago a new document=EF=BB=BF (draft-bp-v6ops-ipv=
6-ready-dns-dnssec-00).

This document is being cited by another document, using
<xref target=3D"I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec"/>

And I've, at Informative References section:
<?rfc include=3D"reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml" ?>

I'm using the same format in the same and other documents and it works, but=
 in this case, when I use the xml2rfc to make a txt version, I get:

INPUT: Line 1610: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.I-D.bp-v6o=
ps-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml"

If I try to submit it, get "An exception occurred when trying to process th=
e XML file:"

There is any delay so citations get indexed or something like?

Thanks!

Regards,
Jordi
=20
=20



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From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:15:43 -0700
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To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
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	charset=utf-8

The first question I would ask is whether the cron job that creates the =
bibliographic entry has run yet. I think it runs daily. For safety, you =
might create the reference object manually (then you know it exists), =
and use the import when you update the document.

> On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:56 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
<jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I've submitted some minutes ago a new document=EF=BB=BF =
(draft-bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec-00).
>=20
> This document is being cited by another document, using
> <xref target=3D"I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec"/>
>=20
> And I've, at Informative References section:
> <?rfc include=3D"reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml" ?>
>=20
> I'm using the same format in the same and other documents and it =
works, but in this case, when I use the xml2rfc to make a txt version, I =
get:
>=20
> INPUT: Line 1610: Unable to resolve external request: =
"reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml"
>=20
> If I try to submit it, get "An exception occurred when trying to =
process the XML file:"
>=20
> There is any delay so citations get indexed or something like?
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Regards,
> Jordi
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>=20
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use =
of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized =
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this =
information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly =
prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the =
intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution =
or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including =
attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal =
offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this =
communication and delete it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc


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From nobody Wed Oct 10 12:50:44 2018
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
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From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>,
 xml2rfc@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
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Hi Jordi,

On 2018-10-10 20:56, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I've submitted some minutes ago a new document=EF=BB=BF
> (draft-bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec-00).
>=20
> This document is being cited by another document, using <xref
> target=3D"I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec"/>
>=20
> And I've, at Informative References section: <?rfc
> include=3D"reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml" ?>
>=20
> I'm using the same format in the same and other documents and it
> works, but in this case, when I use the xml2rfc to make a txt
> version, I get:
>=20
> INPUT: Line 1610: Unable to resolve external request:
> "reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml"
>=20
> If I try to submit it, get "An exception occurred when trying to
> process the XML file:"
>=20
> There is any delay so citations get indexed or something like?

Yes.  New reference files are generated once per hour (unless the machine=

is heavily loaded; then there can be delays).

I just checked, and the reference file has been generated and is availabl=
e
on the server now.

Now, if xml2rfc tried to fetch the reference file before it was available=
,
the local cache may remember that, and wait for the cache to time out.

If you don't get better results now that the file is available on the
server, you should ask xml2rfc to clear its local cache with the command:=


  xml2rfc --clear-cache


Best regards,

	Henrik



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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 22:02:46 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
CC: <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <9844EA49-58BA-4E88-B677-C85F565CAE35@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
References: <36D5B8D0-9383-43E2-B34A-97A252B3D766@consulintel.es> <23fdab64-3a97-865d-46bf-461a4e2b3775@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document
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Hi Henrik,

It worked just waiting, thanks a lot!

Regards,
Jordi
=20
=20

=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
De: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 10 de octubre de 2018, 21:50
Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
Asunto: Re: [xml2rfc] new ID cited in another document

    Hi Jordi,
   =20
    On 2018-10-10 20:56, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
    > Hi,
    >=20
    > I've submitted some minutes ago a new document=EF=BB=BF
    > (draft-bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec-00).
    >=20
    > This document is being cited by another document, using <xref
    > target=3D"I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec"/>
    >=20
    > And I've, at Informative References section: <?rfc
    > include=3D"reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml" ?>
    >=20
    > I'm using the same format in the same and other documents and it
    > works, but in this case, when I use the xml2rfc to make a txt
    > version, I get:
    >=20
    > INPUT: Line 1610: Unable to resolve external request:
    > "reference.I-D.bp-v6ops-ipv6-ready-dns-dnssec.xml"
    >=20
    > If I try to submit it, get "An exception occurred when trying to
    > process the XML file:"
    >=20
    > There is any delay so citations get indexed or something like?
   =20
    Yes.  New reference files are generated once per hour (unless the machi=
ne
    is heavily loaded; then there can be delays).
   =20
    I just checked, and the reference file has been generated and is availa=
ble
    on the server now.
   =20
    Now, if xml2rfc tried to fetch the reference file before it was availab=
le,
    the local cache may remember that, and wait for the cache to time out.
   =20
    If you don't get better results now that the file is available on the
    server, you should ask xml2rfc to clear its local cache with the comman=
d:
   =20
      xml2rfc --clear-cache
   =20
   =20
    Best regards,
   =20
    	Henrik
   =20
   =20
   =20



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From nobody Thu Oct 11 08:31:07 2018
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.11.1, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.11.1) ietf; urgency=medium

  * Changed linebreaking for URLs in boilerplate and references to the old 
    behaviour (don't break), added stream abbreviations according to RFC5741, 
    and changed EMail: to Email: in RFC mode.

  * Added the align attribute for element <table> to the schema.

  * Changed the v2v3 converter handling of the table align attribute, and 
    fixed an issue with lost whitespace after <spanx>.

  * Added STD to the seriesInfo sort order list.

  * Added an error message for <date> month content that is neither a month 
    name or a number.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  11 Oct 2018 08:28:43 -0700

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.11.1'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
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Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.12.0) ietf; urgency=medium

  This release introduces the vocabulary v3 html formatter.  In order to
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  converter in order to transform any deprecated markup to the elements and
  attributes it understands, and then applies the preptool in order to
  normalize the input before it starts rendering.

  This is the first release of the v3 html formatter.  It is quite feature
  complete, but has been tested only on a limited number of documents, so
  expect that there could be some rough edges.

  In building the html v3 formatter, a number of rough edges were also
  discovered in the schema, RFC 7991; html format output, RFC 7992; and
  preptool specification, RFC 7998.  The modifications applied in the code
  are described in draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-05.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  28 Oct 2018 13:45:04 -0700

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.12.0'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


From nobody Mon Oct 29 05:20:27 2018
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Subject: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.12.1, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.12.1) ietf; urgency=medium

  This release provides some additional polish over release 2.12.0, and also a
  few bugfixes.  The primary focus for this release has been HTML compliance
  based on the W3C validator at https://validator.w3.org/.  Valid HTML 5 is
  now generated for all documents used during testing.  From the commit log:

  * Fixed a number of issues with the v3 html renderer, to improve the 
    generated html.  Many of these were caught by the W3C validator at validator.w3.org:

    - removed the <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" ...> element, as it should
      not appear when there is a <meta charset=...> element

    - removed type="text/javascript" from a <script> element (superfluous)

    - removed a number of extraneous wrapping divs with identical id attributes

    - corrected the generation of <dt><dd> items for xml <ol> entries with
      percentage list types

    - removed some attributes on html entries for xml <ol> lists that had
      incorrectly been transferred from the xml

    - corrected the block element generated for <references> to <section>

    - fixed an issue where <xref> in <name> would generate nested html <a>
      elements

  * Also fixed some other issue:

    - added a newline tail for block elements, to improve readability

    - added missing space between author name and (editor)

    - fixed the renderer for <note> to generate html <section> elements with
      the right class attribute

    - refactored the generation of enclosing divs to hold id="$anchor" to be
      more consistent, with less code

    - modified the rendering of <xref> with text content to more closely match
      the historic rendering

  * Updated python-version specific test masters.  Tox runs for py27, py34,
    py35, and py36 aren now all clean.

  * Changed some invalid <link> rel= values to valid ones in the preptool

  * Tweaked the list of html block-level elements we use to control <div>
    wrapping

  * Disallowed <iref> as a direct child of <table> in the schema, as it
    results in invalid html with the rendering specified in RFC 7992.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  29 Oct 2018 12:07:33 +0000

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.12.1'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.0
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Will this be made available on https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ ???

On 10/28/18 4:48 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release,
> v2.12.0, generated when running the mkrelease script.
> 
> Release notes:
> 
> xml2rfc (2.12.0) ietf; urgency=medium
> 
>    This release introduces the vocabulary v3 html formatter.  In order to
>    invoke this formatter, use the regular --html switch for html output, and
>    add the --v3 switch to specify the v3 html formatter.
> 
>    In v3 html formatter mode, xml2rfc accepts any valid xml2rfc input file, but
>    since the actual formatter only understands the XML elements and attributes
>    which have not been deprecated by RFC7991, it first applies the xml2rfc v2v3
>    converter in order to transform any deprecated markup to the elements and
>    attributes it understands, and then applies the preptool in order to
>    normalize the input before it starts rendering.
> 
>    This is the first release of the v3 html formatter.  It is quite feature
>    complete, but has been tested only on a limited number of documents, so
>    expect that there could be some rough edges.
> 
>    In building the html v3 formatter, a number of rough edges were also
>    discovered in the schema, RFC 7991; html format output, RFC 7992; and
>    preptool specification, RFC 7998.  The modifications applied in the code
>    are described in draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-05.
> 
>   -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  28 Oct 2018 13:45:04 -0700
> 
> The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
> and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
> installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
> use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
> manually.
> 
> The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
>    'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.12.0'
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Henrik
> 	(via the mkrelease script)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 29 06:10:16 2018
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To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, xml2rfc@ietf.org
References: <E1gGryb-0000PN-V1@durif.tools.ietf.org> <d8b23495-ff55-2eb7-8e63-01a777652d88@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.0
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From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, xml2rfc@ietf.org
Cc: Tony Hansen <tony@att.com>
Message-ID: <9d66963c-730d-4d16-32f6-ba99b72f9db4@levkowetz.com>
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.0
References: <E1gGryb-0000PN-V1@durif.tools.ietf.org>
 <d8b23495-ff55-2eb7-8e63-01a777652d88@alum.mit.edu>
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Hi Paul,

Yes, that's the intention, but it will have to wait for Tony to have
the cycles to tweak the web frontend, as he's the maintainer for that.

(The xml2rfc binary is installed on the server, but won't do you much
good until the frontend has selections for v3 text and v3 html, and
invokes xml2rfc with the required --text --v3 / --html --v3 switches).


Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2018-10-29 13:45, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> Will this be made available on https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/ ???
>=20
> On 10/28/18 4:48 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release,
>> v2.12.0, generated when running the mkrelease script.
>>=20
>> Release notes:
>>=20
>> xml2rfc (2.12.0) ietf; urgency=3Dmedium
>>=20
>>    This release introduces the vocabulary v3 html formatter.  In order=
 to
>>    invoke this formatter, use the regular --html switch for html outpu=
t, and
>>    add the --v3 switch to specify the v3 html formatter.
>>=20
>>    In v3 html formatter mode, xml2rfc accepts any valid xml2rfc input =
file, but
>>    since the actual formatter only understands the XML elements and at=
tributes
>>    which have not been deprecated by RFC7991, it first applies the xml=
2rfc v2v3
>>    converter in order to transform any deprecated markup to the elemen=
ts and
>>    attributes it understands, and then applies the preptool in order t=
o
>>    normalize the input before it starts rendering.
>>=20
>>    This is the first release of the v3 html formatter.  It is quite fe=
ature
>>    complete, but has been tested only on a limited number of documents=
, so
>>    expect that there could be some rough edges.
>>=20
>>    In building the html v3 formatter, a number of rough edges were als=
o
>>    discovered in the schema, RFC 7991; html format output, RFC 7992; a=
nd
>>    preptool specification, RFC 7998.  The modifications applied in the=
 code
>>    are described in draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-05=
=2E
>>=20
>>   -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  28 Oct 2018 13:45:04 -07=
00
>>=20
>> The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc'=
,
>> and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
>> installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
>> use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies=

>> manually.
>>=20
>> The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
>>    'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/=
2.12.0'
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> 	Henrik
>> 	(via the mkrelease script)
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xml2rfc mailing list
>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>=20


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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:44:46 +0000
From: Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Cc: xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, rfc-markdown@ietf.org
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[ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "[Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release:..." ]
>Hi,
>
>This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release,
>v2.12.1, generated when running the mkrelease script.
>
>Release notes:
>
>xml2rfc (2.12.1) ietf; urgency=medium

I'm trying to make a debian package for easy installing on debian systems, but 
the new dependencies make this difficult.

Current error:
pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The 'google-i18n-address>=2.3.2' distribution was not found and is required by xml2rfc

Note, previous version worked (up to 2.10.x as that was the last I tried)


From nobody Mon Oct 29 13:50:12 2018
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Hi Miek,

The package is available on pypi: https://pypi.org/project/google-i18n-ad=
dress/
If it's a matter of permitting an earlier version, I think that should be=

quite possible.  If it's a matter of working around a complete absence, i=
t's
more tricky.  Could you provide a bit more details on what options we hav=
e to
work with?

Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2018-10-29 21:44, Miek Gieben wrote:
> [ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "[Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release=
:..." ]
>>Hi,
>>
>>This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release,
>>v2.12.1, generated when running the mkrelease script.
>>
>>Release notes:
>>
>>xml2rfc (2.12.1) ietf; urgency=3Dmedium
>=20
> I'm trying to make a debian package for easy installing on debian syste=
ms, but=20
> the new dependencies make this difficult.
>=20
> Current error:
> pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The 'google-i18n-address>=3D2.3.2' =
distribution was not found and is required by xml2rfc
>=20
> Note, previous version worked (up to 2.10.x as that was the last I trie=
d)
>=20


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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 21:43:25 +0000
From: Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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[dropping rfc-markdown]

>Hi Miek,
>
>The package is available on pypi: https://pypi.org/project/google-i18n-address/
>If it's a matter of permitting an earlier version, I think that should be
>quite possible.  If it's a matter of working around a complete absence, it's
>more tricky.  Could you provide a bit more details on what options we have to
>work with?

this creates a deb package: py2dsc-deb xml2rfc-2.12.1.orig.tar.gz, that would 
install before, but now needs the google package.

py2dsc-deb fails for that pypi package (somewhere in testing, go figure).

I don't want hold xml2rfc back by insisting older OSs should be installed 
though. What do I miss when hack the google-i18n stuff out?

/Miek

--
Miek Gieben


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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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Subject: Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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 <20181029204446.xwjkdfdpj7sbhvsr@miek.nl>
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On 2018-10-29 22:43, Miek Gieben wrote:
> [dropping rfc-markdown]
>=20
>>Hi Miek,
>>
>>The package is available on pypi: https://pypi.org/project/google-i18n-=
address/
>>If it's a matter of permitting an earlier version, I think that should =
be
>>quite possible.  If it's a matter of working around a complete absence,=
 it's
>>more tricky.  Could you provide a bit more details on what options we h=
ave to
>>work with?
>=20
> this creates a deb package: py2dsc-deb xml2rfc-2.12.1.orig.tar.gz, that=
 would=20
> install before, but now needs the google package.
>=20
> py2dsc-deb fails for that pypi package (somewhere in testing, go figure=
).

Mph.  Might be worth looking into.

When I was asking for options, I wanted to explore if earlier versions of=
 the
i18n-address package would work; whether it might work to pull it into th=
e
xml2rfc distribution, and other possibilities, if you have suggestions.

> I don't want hold xml2rfc back by insisting older OSs should be install=
ed=20
> though. What do I miss when hack the google-i18n stuff out?

Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck with th=
e
fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat less s=
o
for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.


	Henrik


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[ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc rele..." ]
>> py2dsc-deb fails for that pypi package (somewhere in testing, go figure).
>
>Mph.  Might be worth looking into.
>
>When I was asking for options, I wanted to explore if earlier versions of the
>i18n-address package would work; whether it might work to pull it into the
>xml2rfc distribution, and other possibilities, if you have suggestions.

I think bundling would help here (although I'm hardly an export the in 
python/debian eco-system)


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On 2018-10-29 23:05, Miek Gieben wrote:
> [ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc rel=
e..." ]
>>> py2dsc-deb fails for that pypi package (somewhere in testing, go figu=
re).
>>
>>Mph.  Might be worth looking into.

I looked into this a bit.  The test requirements for google-i18n-address
seems to require python package setuptools>=3D36.4, but doesn't say so (i=
n
setup.py).

Upgrading to setuptools>=3D36.4 (manually: $ pip install --upgrade setupt=
ools)
lets the tests run successfully.

Does that help?

>>
>>When I was asking for options, I wanted to explore if earlier versions =
of the
>>i18n-address package would work; whether it might work to pull it into =
the
>>xml2rfc distribution, and other possibilities, if you have suggestions.=

>=20
> I think bundling would help here (although I'm hardly an export the in =

> python/debian eco-system)

I could do that, but the google-i18n-address package is rather large, so =
if
possible duplication can be avoided, it would be great.


	Henrik



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On 2018-10-29 22:57, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> ...
> Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck with the
> fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat less so
> for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.
> ...

Example? Smells a bit like overkill, given that v3 has simplified 
address formatting (postalLine).

Best regards, Julian


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On 2018-10-30 05:57, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2018-10-29 22:57, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>> ...
>> Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck with=
 the
>> fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat les=
s so
>> for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.
>> ...
>=20
> Example? Smells a bit like overkill, given that v3 has simplified=20
> address formatting (postalLine).

Example: In Norwegian and Swedish address format, the postal code goes
before the city, not after the region code.  This is correct:

  Midtskogveien 18
  2020 Skedsmokorset
  Norway=20

The current html specification would instead have produced, depending on
how you work around its problems, one of

  Midtskogveien 18
  Skedsmokorset
  2020
  Norway

or=20

  Midtskogveien 18
  Skedsmokorset, 2020
  Norway

which is a slighter degree of mangling than for places like various areas=

of Japan, that needs city-region.  Here is a Japanese example.  This is
correct (except that it's also a translation, not just a romanization):

  Japan
  112-0001
  Tokyo-to
  Bunkyo-ku
  4-3-2 Hakusan
  3rd Floor Room B

and the RFC7992 specification would have rendered it as either this,
preserving the semantic labelling of the parts, but loosing the city-regi=
on
part:

  3rd Floor Room B
  4-3-2 Hakusan
  Tokyo-to, 112-0001
  Japan

or would loose all semantic labelling through forced use of postalLine fo=
r
all entries.

This problem has however been solved to a large degree by modern librarie=
s.
If you can do this *right*, why continue to do it wrong?

postalLine would have been a bit of an improvement, if it hadn't been=20
handicapped by throwing out interesting and valid information through
the choice of not permitting any of the existing elements that made sense=

for the location's address.  A better choice would have been to add
city-region and postal-box as new address elements, and specify the use
of country-specific formatting.  The latter is something I could do.
I haven't done the former, even if it would have been tempting, given
that it would have given a pretty complete set of labelled address entiti=
es
to work with.

Take the statistics that are available here:
  https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/document/yearly/country/

Forcing the removal of country (and region, and city) labelling if your
address needs a non-US address format makes producing that kind of info
harder; and it also removes the vCard/hCard annotation made possible by
having properly identified address parts.  The current code provides the
correct hCard property labels also for non-US addresses.

I'm *tired* of having software only work right for one country out of
many, and it's not necessary any longer.  Look at all the variations
across the globe, and come and tell me that it is preferred not to do
things as right as you can for most of them:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_address

Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the
rendering of the bottom address here may please you:

https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-aut=
hors-addresses


Regards,

	Henrik


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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 07:03:42 +0000
From: Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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[ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc rele..." ]
>I looked into this a bit.  The test requirements for google-i18n-address
>seems to require python package setuptools>=36.4, but doesn't say so (in
>setup.py).
>
>Upgrading to setuptools>=36.4 (manually: $ pip install --upgrade setuptools)
>lets the tests run successfully.
>
>Does that help?

for getting a deb from i18n-address? Most likely not, 'cause it uses the 
setuptools from the os (Version: 33.1.1-1).


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To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
References: <E1gH6Wn-0002ca-CU@durif.tools.ietf.org> <20181029204446.xwjkdfdpj7sbhvsr@miek.nl> <0455bd48-3392-bb4c-f510-c57489792606@levkowetz.com> <20181029214325.5i3rrv55dpamvbsa@miek.nl> <a614b58e-0d4c-67d0-77f9-f5b6b66d7ff1@levkowetz.com> <d0a3693b-87b5-c8e9-8137-9d61805f58f0@gmx.de> <f01715aa-ee1b-ec80-0657-7d19b23da98a@levkowetz.com>
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:20:11 +0100
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On 2018-10-30 07:29, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2018-10-30 05:57, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 2018-10-29 22:57, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck with the
>>> fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat less so
>>> for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.
>>> ...
>>
>> Example? Smells a bit like overkill, given that v3 has simplified
>> address formatting (postalLine).
> 
> Example: In Norwegian and Swedish address format, the postal code goes
> before the city, not after the region code.  This is correct:
> 
>    Midtskogveien 18
>    2020 Skedsmokorset
>    Norway
> 
> The current html specification would instead have produced, depending on
> how you work around its problems, one of
> 
>    Midtskogveien 18
>    Skedsmokorset
>    2020
>    Norway
> 
> or
> 
>    Midtskogveien 18
>    Skedsmokorset, 2020
>    Norway
> 
> which is a slighter degree of mangling than for places like various areas
> of Japan, that needs city-region.  Here is a Japanese example.  This is
> correct (except that it's also a translation, not just a romanization):
> 
>    Japan
>    112-0001
>    Tokyo-to
>    Bunkyo-ku
>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>    3rd Floor Room B
> 
> and the RFC7992 specification would have rendered it as either this,
> preserving the semantic labelling of the parts, but loosing the city-region
> part:
> 
>    3rd Floor Room B
>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>    Tokyo-to, 112-0001
>    Japan
> 
> or would loose all semantic labelling through forced use of postalLine for
> all entries.
> 
> This problem has however been solved to a large degree by modern libraries.
> If you can do this *right*, why continue to do it wrong?

Because it's complex, and now you are relying on a specific 
implementation. Is the algorithm documented?

> postalLine would have been a bit of an improvement, if it hadn't been
> handicapped by throwing out interesting and valid information through
> the choice of not permitting any of the existing elements that made sense

Well, we can discuss it. <postalLine> is the way it is because the 
design team thought that the level of detail that we had before simply 
was unneeded and just made things too complex. I guess this discussion 
supports this point :-)

> for the location's address.  A better choice would have been to add
> city-region and postal-box as new address elements, and specify the use
> of country-specific formatting.  The latter is something I could do.
> I haven't done the former, even if it would have been tempting, given
> that it would have given a pretty complete set of labelled address entities
> to work with.
> 
> Take the statistics that are available here:
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/document/yearly/country/

Understood. I'm just not sure that the fact these kind of stats exists 
(and apparently are already done with heuristics) justifies the 
complexity of the vocabulary.

> Forcing the removal of country (and region, and city) labelling if your
> address needs a non-US address format makes producing that kind of info
> harder; and it also removes the vCard/hCard annotation made possible by
> having properly identified address parts.  The current code provides the
> correct hCard property labels also for non-US addresses.
> 
> I'm *tired* of having software only work right for one country out of
> many, and it's not necessary any longer.  Look at all the variations

Yes, that's why we took the complexity out of the vocabulary.

> across the globe, and come and tell me that it is preferred not to do
> things as right as you can for most of them:
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_address
> 
> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the
> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
> 
> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-authors-addresses
> ...

Best regards, Julian


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From nobody Tue Oct 30 01:37:18 2018
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From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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Subject: Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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On 2018-10-30 08:03, Miek Gieben wrote:
> [ Quoting <henrik@levkowetz.com> in "Re: [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc rel=
e..." ]
>>I looked into this a bit.  The test requirements for google-i18n-addres=
s
>>seems to require python package setuptools>=3D36.4, but doesn't say so =
(in
>>setup.py).
>>
>>Upgrading to setuptools>=3D36.4 (manually: $ pip install --upgrade setu=
ptools)
>>lets the tests run successfully.
>>
>>Does that help?
>=20
> for getting a deb from i18n-address? Most likely not, 'cause it uses th=
e=20
> setuptools from the os (Version: 33.1.1-1).

Aha.  I'll look at bundling options, then.

	Henrik



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Hi Julian,

On 2018-10-30 08:20, Julian Reschke wrote:
> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, th=
e
> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>=20
> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-a=
uthors-addresses

No comments on this?


	Henrik


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From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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On 2018-10-30 09:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Hi Julian,
> 
> On 2018-10-30 08:20, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the
>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>
>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-authors-addresses
> 
> No comments on this?


Looks good to me, but I'm not sure what conversation you're referring 
to... :-)

(My version: 
https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt/v3test.html#rfc.authors)

Best regards, Julian


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On 2018-10-30 10:47, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2018-10-30 09:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>> Hi Julian,
>>=20
>> On 2018-10-30 08:20, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, =
the
>>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>>
>>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name=
-authors-addresses
>>=20
>> No comments on this?
>=20
>=20
> Looks good to me, but I'm not sure what conversation you're referring=20
> to... :-)

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfc-interest/gmDbrPud8n-m6PKeEpJBEq=
M6YIg

(regarding alignment of right-to-left scripts).

>=20
> (My version:=20
> https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2629xslt/v3test.html#rfc.authors)
>=20
> Best regards, Julian
>=20

Regards,

	Henrik



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From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:29:21 +0100
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On 2018-10-30 11:10, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> On 2018-10-30 10:47, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 2018-10-30 09:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>> Hi Julian,
>>>
>>> On 2018-10-30 08:20, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the
>>>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>>>
>>>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-authors-addresses
>>>
>>> No comments on this?
>>
>>
>> Looks good to me, but I'm not sure what conversation you're referring
>> to... :-)
> 
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfc-interest/gmDbrPud8n-m6PKeEpJBEqM6YIg
> 
> (regarding alignment of right-to-left scripts).

I see.

Can you share the source code for this example?

Best regards, Julian


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Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
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On 2018-10-30 13:29, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2018-10-30 11:10, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>> On 2018-10-30 10:47, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 2018-10-30 09:37, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>>> Hi Julian,
>>>>
>>>> On 2018-10-30 08:20, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting=
, the
>>>>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#na=
me-authors-addresses
>>>>
>>>> No comments on this?
>>>
>>>
>>> Looks good to me, but I'm not sure what conversation you're referring=

>>> to... :-)
>>=20
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfc-interest/gmDbrPud8n-m6PKeEpJ=
BEqM6YIg
>>=20
>> (regarding alignment of right-to-left scripts).
>=20
> I see.
>=20
> Can you share the source code for this example?

It's in the repository, http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk=
/cli/,
but it's basically very simple:  When rendering non-latin addresses, set =
the
directionality attribute dir=3D"auto" on each address line <div>.

Regards,

	Henrik


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On Tue 2018-10-30 09:37:00 +0100, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Aha.  I'll look at bundling options, then.

please do not bundle other source with the xml2rfc source!  at least,
do not do it for debian's sake.  bundled sources are actively frowned
upon within debian, and if you bundle it creates more work for the
debian maintainers.

Thanks for your ongoing labors on xml2rfc, Henrik!

       --dkg

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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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On Mon 2018-10-29 20:44:46 +0000, Miek Gieben wrote:
> I'm trying to make a debian package for easy installing on debian systems=
, but=20
> the new dependencies make this difficult.
>
> Current error:
> pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The 'google-i18n-address>=3D2.3.2' di=
stribution was not found and is required by xml2rfc
>
> Note, previous version worked (up to 2.10.x as that was the last I tried)

I've already packaged google-i18n-address for debian and uploaded it.

   https://bugs.debian.org/912228

It's in the NEW queue, waiting for ftp-master approval:

   https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html

I've already uploaded version 2.12.1 to debian unstable -- once
google-i18n-address passes NEW, xml2rfc 2.12.1 should be available in
debian.

        --dkg

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References: <E1gH6Wn-0002ca-CU@durif.tools.ietf.org> <20181029204446.xwjkdfdpj7sbhvsr@miek.nl> <87muqve2vh.fsf@fifthhorseman.net>
In-Reply-To: <87muqve2vh.fsf@fifthhorseman.net>
From: Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 18:28:51 +0000
Message-ID: <CAJrXxAPL4mEU3EEiq3_Ws977pc0F0ZybCJnktafR6J2PHR9rRQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net>
Cc: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, RFC Markdown <rfc-markdown@ietf.org>, xml2rfc@ietf.org,  xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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Ah nice!

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 18:23 Daniel Kahn Gillmor, <dkg@fifthhorseman.net>
wrote:

> On Mon 2018-10-29 20:44:46 +0000, Miek Gieben wrote:
> > I'm trying to make a debian package for easy installing on debian
> systems, but
> > the new dependencies make this difficult.
> >
> > Current error:
> > pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The 'google-i18n-address>=2.3.2'
> distribution was not found and is required by xml2rfc
> >
> > Note, previous version worked (up to 2.10.x as that was the last I tried)
>
> I've already packaged google-i18n-address for debian and uploaded it.
>
>    https://bugs.debian.org/912228
>
> It's in the NEW queue, waiting for ftp-master approval:
>
>    https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
>
> I've already uploaded version 2.12.1 to debian unstable -- once
> google-i18n-address passes NEW, xml2rfc 2.12.1 should be available in
> debian.
>
>         --dkg
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Ah nice!</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 18:23 Daniel Kahn Gillmor, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
dkg@fifthhorseman.net">dkg@fifthhorseman.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">On Mon 2018-10-29 20:44:46 +0000, Miek Gieben wrot=
e:<br>
&gt; I&#39;m trying to make a debian package for easy installing on debian =
systems, but <br>
&gt; the new dependencies make this difficult.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Current error:<br>
&gt; pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: The &#39;google-i18n-address&gt;=
=3D2.3.2&#39; distribution was not found and is required by xml2rfc<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Note, previous version worked (up to 2.10.x as that was the last I tri=
ed)<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve already packaged google-i18n-address for debian and uploaded it.<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bugs.debian.org/912228" rel=3D"noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bugs.debian.org/912228</a><br>
<br>
It&#39;s in the NEW queue, waiting for ftp-master approval:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html=
</a><br>
<br>
I&#39;ve already uploaded version 2.12.1 to debian unstable -- once<br>
google-i18n-address passes NEW, xml2rfc 2.12.1 should be available in<br>
debian.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --dkg<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000002e28b20579765c54--


From nobody Tue Oct 30 11:34:19 2018
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
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References: <E1gH6Wn-0002ca-CU@durif.tools.ietf.org> <20181029204446.xwjkdfdpj7sbhvsr@miek.nl> <0455bd48-3392-bb4c-f510-c57489792606@levkowetz.com> <20181029214325.5i3rrv55dpamvbsa@miek.nl> <a614b58e-0d4c-67d0-77f9-f5b6b66d7ff1@levkowetz.com> <d0a3693b-87b5-c8e9-8137-9d61805f58f0@gmx.de> <f01715aa-ee1b-ec80-0657-7d19b23da98a@levkowetz.com> <1d03c466-bd4a-934e-18f0-f9ac5bc2225e@gmx.de>
From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:34:09 -0500
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [xml2rfc-dev] [Rfc-markdown] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.1
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Meta-comment/question:

Is this a discussion about the vocabulary that we should be tracking as 
an issue on the vocabulary document (to at least make it easier to find 
later)?

RjS

On 10/30/18 2:20 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2018-10-30 07:29, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2018-10-30 05:57, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 2018-10-29 22:57, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck 
>>>> with the
>>>> fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat 
>>>> less so
>>>> for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> Example? Smells a bit like overkill, given that v3 has simplified
>>> address formatting (postalLine).
>>
>> Example: In Norwegian and Swedish address format, the postal code goes
>> before the city, not after the region code.  This is correct:
>>
>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>    2020 Skedsmokorset
>>    Norway
>>
>> The current html specification would instead have produced, depending on
>> how you work around its problems, one of
>>
>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>    Skedsmokorset
>>    2020
>>    Norway
>>
>> or
>>
>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>    Skedsmokorset, 2020
>>    Norway
>>
>> which is a slighter degree of mangling than for places like various 
>> areas
>> of Japan, that needs city-region.  Here is a Japanese example. This is
>> correct (except that it's also a translation, not just a romanization):
>>
>>    Japan
>>    112-0001
>>    Tokyo-to
>>    Bunkyo-ku
>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>    3rd Floor Room B
>>
>> and the RFC7992 specification would have rendered it as either this,
>> preserving the semantic labelling of the parts, but loosing the 
>> city-region
>> part:
>>
>>    3rd Floor Room B
>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>    Tokyo-to, 112-0001
>>    Japan
>>
>> or would loose all semantic labelling through forced use of 
>> postalLine for
>> all entries.
>>
>> This problem has however been solved to a large degree by modern 
>> libraries.
>> If you can do this *right*, why continue to do it wrong?
>
> Because it's complex, and now you are relying on a specific 
> implementation. Is the algorithm documented?
>
>> postalLine would have been a bit of an improvement, if it hadn't been
>> handicapped by throwing out interesting and valid information through
>> the choice of not permitting any of the existing elements that made 
>> sense
>
> Well, we can discuss it. <postalLine> is the way it is because the 
> design team thought that the level of detail that we had before simply 
> was unneeded and just made things too complex. I guess this discussion 
> supports this point :-)
>
>> for the location's address.  A better choice would have been to add
>> city-region and postal-box as new address elements, and specify the use
>> of country-specific formatting.  The latter is something I could do.
>> I haven't done the former, even if it would have been tempting, given
>> that it would have given a pretty complete set of labelled address 
>> entities
>> to work with.
>>
>> Take the statistics that are available here:
>>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/document/yearly/country/
>
> Understood. I'm just not sure that the fact these kind of stats exists 
> (and apparently are already done with heuristics) justifies the 
> complexity of the vocabulary.
>
>> Forcing the removal of country (and region, and city) labelling if your
>> address needs a non-US address format makes producing that kind of info
>> harder; and it also removes the vCard/hCard annotation made possible by
>> having properly identified address parts.  The current code provides the
>> correct hCard property labels also for non-US addresses.
>>
>> I'm *tired* of having software only work right for one country out of
>> many, and it's not necessary any longer.  Look at all the variations
>
> Yes, that's why we took the complexity out of the vocabulary.
>
>> across the globe, and come and tell me that it is preferred not to do
>> things as right as you can for most of them:
>>
>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_address
>>
>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the
>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>
>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-authors-addresses 
>>
>> ...
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc-dev mailing list
> xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc-dev


From nobody Tue Oct 30 11:41:25 2018
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Hi Robert,

> On 30 Oct 2018, at 19:34, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
> Meta-comment/question:
>=20
> Is this a discussion about the vocabulary that we should be tracking as an=
 issue on the vocabulary document (to at least make it easier to find later)=
?

I've tried to capture the relevant bits in my implementation notes draft in p=
arallel with writing the code.  The next rev will be submitted when submissi=
ons open again.

Best regards,

        Henrik

>=20
> RjS
>=20
>> On 10/30/18 2:20 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 2018-10-30 07:29, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 2018-10-30 05:57, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-10-29 22:57, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Country-specific address formatting.  Without it, you'll be stuck with=
 the
>>>>> fallback, which is very americentric for the text output, somewhat les=
s so
>>>>> for the html output (but not very refined).  I'd hate to see it go.
>>>>> ...
>>>>=20
>>>> Example? Smells a bit like overkill, given that v3 has simplified
>>>> address formatting (postalLine).
>>>=20
>>> Example: In Norwegian and Swedish address format, the postal code goes
>>> before the city, not after the region code.  This is correct:
>>>=20
>>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>>    2020 Skedsmokorset
>>>    Norway
>>>=20
>>> The current html specification would instead have produced, depending on=

>>> how you work around its problems, one of
>>>=20
>>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>>    Skedsmokorset
>>>    2020
>>>    Norway
>>>=20
>>> or
>>>=20
>>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>>    Skedsmokorset, 2020
>>>    Norway
>>>=20
>>> which is a slighter degree of mangling than for places like various area=
s
>>> of Japan, that needs city-region.  Here is a Japanese example. This is
>>> correct (except that it's also a translation, not just a romanization):
>>>=20
>>>    Japan
>>>    112-0001
>>>    Tokyo-to
>>>    Bunkyo-ku
>>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>>    3rd Floor Room B
>>>=20
>>> and the RFC7992 specification would have rendered it as either this,
>>> preserving the semantic labelling of the parts, but loosing the city-reg=
ion
>>> part:
>>>=20
>>>    3rd Floor Room B
>>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>>    Tokyo-to, 112-0001
>>>    Japan
>>>=20
>>> or would loose all semantic labelling through forced use of postalLine f=
or
>>> all entries.
>>>=20
>>> This problem has however been solved to a large degree by modern librari=
es.
>>> If you can do this *right*, why continue to do it wrong?
>>=20
>> Because it's complex, and now you are relying on a specific implementatio=
n. Is the algorithm documented?
>>=20
>>> postalLine would have been a bit of an improvement, if it hadn't been
>>> handicapped by throwing out interesting and valid information through
>>> the choice of not permitting any of the existing elements that made sens=
e
>>=20
>> Well, we can discuss it. <postalLine> is the way it is because the design=
 team thought that the level of detail that we had before simply was unneede=
d and just made things too complex. I guess this discussion supports this po=
int :-)
>>=20
>>> for the location's address.  A better choice would have been to add
>>> city-region and postal-box as new address elements, and specify the use
>>> of country-specific formatting.  The latter is something I could do.
>>> I haven't done the former, even if it would have been tempting, given
>>> that it would have given a pretty complete set of labelled address entit=
ies
>>> to work with.
>>>=20
>>> Take the statistics that are available here:
>>>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/document/yearly/country/
>>=20
>> Understood. I'm just not sure that the fact these kind of stats exists (a=
nd apparently are already done with heuristics) justifies the complexity of t=
he vocabulary.
>>=20
>>> Forcing the removal of country (and region, and city) labelling if your
>>> address needs a non-US address format makes producing that kind of info
>>> harder; and it also removes the vCard/hCard annotation made possible by
>>> having properly identified address parts.  The current code provides the=

>>> correct hCard property labels also for non-US addresses.
>>>=20
>>> I'm *tired* of having software only work right for one country out of
>>> many, and it's not necessary any longer.  Look at all the variations
>>=20
>> Yes, that's why we took the complexity out of the vocabulary.
>>=20
>>> across the globe, and come and tell me that it is preferred not to do
>>> things as right as you can for most of them:
>>>=20
>>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_address
>>>=20
>>> Finally, given an old conversation you had about address formatting, the=

>>> rendering of the bottom address here may please you:
>>>=20
>>> https://durif.tools.ietf.org/src/xml2rfc/html/show/elements.html#name-au=
thors-addresses=20
>>> ...
>>=20
>> Best regards, Julian
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xml2rfc-dev mailing list
>> xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc-dev
>=20
>=20


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Hi Daniel,

On 2018-10-30 18:56, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
> On Tue 2018-10-30 09:37:00 +0100, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>> Aha.  I'll look at bundling options, then.
>=20
> please do not bundle other source with the xml2rfc source!  at least,
> do not do it for debian's sake.  bundled sources are actively frowned
> upon within debian, and if you bundle it creates more work for the
> debian maintainers.

Ack; understood.  I was already hesitant, but I also want to make it
possible to use the tools.  I'll be even more hesitant in the future,
then ;-)
>=20
> Thanks for your ongoing labors on xml2rfc, Henrik!

You're welcome :-)

	Henrik


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Subject: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.2
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.12.2, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.12.2) ietf; urgency=medium

  This bugfix release corrects a default setting for --v3 modes so they do not
  try to apply DTD validation.  It refines the internationalised address
  layout, and does re-factoring in a number of places.  Non-Latin author names
  and addresses in Right-To-Left scripts are now properly aligned in the
  Authors' Addresses section.  It also fixes an issue where needLines PI
  settings were ineffectual under python2.7, and caused exceptions under
  python3.5 and higher.  

  Excerpted from the commit log:

  * Changed the HTML renderer to properly place organisation in i18n 
    address layout, and added back the role indication that was lost in 
    previous i18n address layout work.

  * Updated run.py to apply the --no-dtd option to all --v3 formats, fixing 
    an issue in 2.12.1 with running --html --v3 on a converted --v2v3 file.

  * Fixed an issue with needLines when set to a string value.

  * Added simple bidi-support to author addresses, in order to have 
    addresses in right-to-left scripts align properly.  Fixed a bug in the 
    handling of non-Latin address information.

  * Tweaked the vcard width to avoid having author names and addresses in 
    right-to-left script end up far to the right, away from the ASCII 
    information.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  30 Oct 2018 21:51:02 +0000

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.12.2'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Subject: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.12.3
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.12.3, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.12.3) ietf; urgency=medium

  This release fixes a schema issue.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  30 Oct 2018 22:10:23 +0000

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.12.3'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Hi Martin,

On 2018-10-30 08:24, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
> On 2018/10/30 15:29, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>=20
>> The current html specification would instead have produced, depending =
on
>> how you work around its problems, one of
>>=20
>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>    Skedsmokorset
>>    2020
>>    Norway
>>=20
>> or
>>=20
>>    Midtskogveien 18
>>    Skedsmokorset, 2020
>>    Norway
>>=20
>> which is a slighter degree of mangling than for places like various ar=
eas
>> of Japan, that needs city-region.  Here is a Japanese example.  This i=
s
>> correct (except that it's also a translation, not just a romanization)=
:
>=20
> It is (mostly) correct for the original, which would be something like:=

>=20
> =E6=97=A5=E6=9C=AC
> =E3=80=92 112-0001
> =E6=9D=B1=E4=BA=AC=E9=83=BD=E6=96=87=E4=BA=AC=E5=8C=BA=E7=99=BD=E5=B1=B1=
 4-3-2
> 3F B=E5=AE=A4
>=20
> Note that the hierarchical number (4-3-2) always comes after =E7=99=BD=E5=
=B1=B1=20
> (Hakusan) in the Japanese version. It can come after or before in the=20
> romanized version. Also note that in Japanese, there isn't really a=20
> fixed convention for line breaks; in addition, this example has a floor=
=20
> and room designation but lacks a building name, which isn't very typica=
l.

Aha, ok.

>=20
>>    Japan
>>    112-0001
>>    Tokyo-to
>>    Bunkyo-ku
>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>    3rd Floor Room B
>=20
> This order of address fields would be very strange for an actually=20
> romanized address, the example below, with some fixes, would be much be=
tter.

Yes, I also saw this when I put an <author> entry in place and processed
it through the i18n library.

>> and the RFC7992 specification would have rendered it as either this,
>> preserving the semantic labelling of the parts, but loosing the city-r=
egion
>> part:
>>=20
>>    3rd Floor Room B
>>    4-3-2 Hakusan
>>    Tokyo-to, 112-0001
>>    Japan
>=20
> Romanized, it should be something like:
>=20
> 3rd Floor Room B
> 4-3-2 Hakusan, Bunkyo-ku
> Tokyo, 112-0001 Japan
>=20
> More or less linebreaks are okay, there isn't too much of a fixed=20
> convention. The -to after Tokyo isn't used that much for romanized=20
> addresses.

Ok, noted.  I'll correct my example.

Thanks for the additional input :-)


Best regards,

	Henrik


>=20
> Regards,   Martin.
>=20
>> or would loose all semantic labelling through forced use of postalLine=
 for
>> all entries.
>>=20
>> This problem has however been solved to a large degree by modern libra=
ries.
>> If you can do this *right*, why continue to do it wrong?
>=20


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