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Fri, 4 Dec 2020 10:07:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <160710526748.28999.8015596418485556806@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2020 10:07:47 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Meeting Details - 10 December 2020 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2020 18:07:48 -0000 IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are divided into four sections: 1. Open (to Observers) 2. Board + Support Staff Only 3. Board + Executive Director Only 4. Executive Session (Board-Only) The next meeting will be held on Thursday, 10 December 2020 at 12:00 PT (20:00 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this message and also at . The agenda for the meeting can be found at . A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or subscribed to at: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v42hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ------------------------------------------------------- JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m5481867e37f4c98327c151d9a6a7cd78 Meeting number (access code): 178 797 1273 JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 178 797 1273 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\)) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:39:13 +0000 References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> To: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 08:39:39 -0000 Jay, your blog post says "the majority of participants at 55% did not = use Gather. We clearly need to do more to encourage its use for social = interaction.=E2=80=9D I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the = survey respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the = tool is not wanted or needed. From nobody Mon Dec 7 00:47:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228973A1181 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:47:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8tgKVGleNQAK for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D58763A1188 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:1cb:e012:b4e4:60a8] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:1cb:e012:b4e4:60a8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2B1060AE27; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:46:09 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1607330769; bh=+kFyXQAG2pDDFitMkPVKYwFvNclpP6ZMLCdCLmZ7ZrI=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=G2ANfDVu6EH5NcKv5WM7nI2+RNnp/ZrvCg3zGNaBSxFEgTXAF7Gk7Nyo7DDoiI25U ik1O+lt5DomNRA4QP8+Fw9RJ3nAgKMW48OEo+w9UHJMpA0XXGs4iruXNco3cMfyEQC P/jzOML0bytIxt4RsSoZK7aD1rUgnBLoBJ+Ce/7o= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EDC7BCC6-9147-4D22-8CAF-4A204B755516"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:46:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Jim Reid References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> X-MailScanner-ID: A2B1060AE27.A1ABE X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 08:47:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EDC7BCC6-9147-4D22-8CAF-4A204B755516 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2020-12-7, at 10:39, Jim Reid wrote: > I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the = survey respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the = tool is not wanted or needed. the 45% of participants that did use Gather might disagree with that. = (Not to mention that there is quite a margin of error in these = percentages anyway, due to the limited participation in the survey.) Gather is not perfect, but for me, it's the best replacement for the = hallway track that I've seen yet, and I participate in quite a few = remote conferences. I'd hate to see it go away. Lars --Apple-Mail=_EDC7BCC6-9147-4D22-8CAF-4A204B755516 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl/N69EACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfXQA/9EcZE/LMlwWaJXCdjkxLk/6nIjddSc18Uc7W3RiqRM2FpdsTIr1w4tD0r LMRSRbKinCExuCAa5a4gyUs8TIDZpJmQ9AIzVwSN5d8iAS4w5Bgrj0z1s52CnY1y ypKdtgqbS5SFT0C6XjG0xk+XyGvFGfbvAKFyu1qZfpzkKgMlPo5pmfI0APY0L1qe E/mzWtaWENEJcDkKN9qf/Jq5n2SsJb216zsktdQJl92MOpI1Fdg+zFpJxSfhHFV1 rN827bb0HWo47spnXEYm8GliXSG7Sg4qBIGufFavl8je2hQogCbBrnMlLoouFqBB ewn8pVH52ChWxxjB//ldf7QqwtuQfl3x4/X8hDhs+BLFUXhVwiTNFSrwBvJFtcX9 lGCHSE6ve2wsP6eeOboF6CwdX3cLSOBo6cuiAgXC3KA6wMeel4nzvIfTtWJleuOu DlYDv/Nwn/FAeiFQuer01SVv2tTnCdMbRYjKCI+3zJLGTXboATCgjNYFjmwFE94Z ygcSE3ACLd/BIjrfoc1c5gZfHAxteO++yYC/eUg8Oeyc9/7FykB474NvNv9HpdIH ZI0XCSC54RcTW+O1WdHOu92ZsLUGua5k1Pi1zegMjwJUIU7ZVxLYmPCadylYfptf XVfVOcQDTO3rRhBuzGyQqwC4uiPQVTVrLQzFVnRLbG2VejPvgfw= =+D/5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EDC7BCC6-9147-4D22-8CAF-4A204B755516-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 01:49:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B8F3A128C for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 01:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nytzEz3mbqXj; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 01:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BDBBA3A084D; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 01:49:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-336DDAA5-3FBC-4B03-94E4-D496710802F9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:49:43 +1300 Message-Id: <5122E79F-3765-45CB-B047-151A304CD159@ietf.org> References: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Jim Reid X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 09:49:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail-336DDAA5-3FBC-4B03-94E4-D496710802F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim > On 7/12/2020, at 9:39 PM, Jim Reid wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFJay, your blog post says "the majority of participants at 55% did= not use Gather. We clearly need to do more to encourage its use for social= interaction.=E2=80=9D >=20 > I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the survey r= espondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the tool is not w= anted or needed. I agree that is an equally valid interpretation. The reason I see it differe= ntly is that the use of Gather by those who do use it is very similar to an i= n-person hallway, which suggests to me that the problem is more one of famil= iarity and critical mass than dislike. Admittedly we could have asked that d= irectly in the survey but I=E2=80=99m wary that might have been asking peopl= e about unknown unknowns. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --Apple-Mail-336DDAA5-3FBC-4B03-94E4-D496710802F9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim

On 7/12/2020, at 9:39 PM, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.co= m> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFJay, your blog post says "the majority of participants a= t 55% did not use Gather.  We clearly need to do more to encourage its u= se for social interaction.=E2=80=9D

I think= that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the survey responden= ts didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the tool is not wanted or= needed.

I agree that is an equa= lly valid interpretation. The reason I see it differently is that the use of= Gather by those who do use it is very similar to an in-person hallway, whic= h suggests to me that the problem is more one of familiarity and critical ma= ss than dislike. Admittedly we could have asked that directly in the survey b= ut I=E2=80=99m wary that might have been asking people about unknown unknown= s.

Jay

-- <= /span>
Jay Da= ley
IETF Executive Director


--
admin-discuss maili= ng list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss
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Mon, 07 Dec 2020 06:08:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:08:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Jim Reid , admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001946fa05b5e05d6a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:08:48 -0000 --0000000000001946fa05b5e05d6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I agree with Lars that something used by half of people shouldn't go away. But I also don't think that the LLC needs to be in the business of encouraging people to use Gather if they don't want to. -Ekr On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:47 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2020-12-7, at 10:39, Jim Reid wrote: > > I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the surv= ey > respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the tool is n= ot wanted > or needed. > > the 45% of participants that did use Gather might disagree with that. (No= t > to mention that there is quite a margin of error in these percentages > anyway, due to the limited participation in the survey.) > > Gather is not perfect, but for me, it's the best replacement for the > hallway track that I've seen yet, and I participate in quite a few remote > conferences. I'd hate to see it go away. > > Lars > -- > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss > --0000000000001946fa05b5e05d6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I agr= ee with Lars that something used by half of people shouldn't go away. B= ut I also don't think that the LLC needs to be in the business of encou= raging people to use Gather if they don't want to.

-Ekr


On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:47 AM Lars Egge= rt <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2020-12-7, at 10:39, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
> I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the sur= vey respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the tool is= not wanted or needed.

the 45% of participants that did use Gather might disagree with that. (Not = to mention that there is quite a margin of error in these percentages anywa= y, due to the limited participation in the survey.)

Gather is not perfect, but for me, it's the best replacement for the ha= llway track that I've seen yet, and I participate in quite a few remote= conferences. I'd hate to see it go away.

Lars
--
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discu= ss
--0000000000001946fa05b5e05d6a-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 07:47:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B993A1455 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 07:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Il8FHdvIiW8c for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 07:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 746B43A1415 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 07:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE66B300ADC for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:47:04 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id LbgECZ8F1yjU for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CEBC300BC1 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:47:03 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 10:47:04 -0500 References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> To: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 15:47:17 -0000 > Jay, your blog post says "the majority of participants at 55% did not = use Gather. We clearly need to do more to encourage its use for social = interaction.=E2=80=9D >=20 > I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the = survey respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the = tool is not wanted or needed. I think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. With = a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee hours in my = time zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food and drink. = That was a much greater priority to be ready for the next session. When = chairing the next session, one needs to get into Meetecho early enough = to be sure that everything was set up and working. I greatly missed the social aspects of a face-to-face meeting. The one = time I used Gather was to coordinate with someone about the session in = the next slot. It was arranged ahead of time. Russ From nobody Mon Dec 7 11:37:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D88D3A074E for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fGfHrYdLjBh for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B24B3A0766 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id o5so9800917pgm.10 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9LWdxz898wSU5eHikT8WboCiU2ekOOOrUoNpz9GSWh4=; b=TguilllxTRud/+9D0B666QJzYCImFpr4pPQle5WQ9qysHaKMKzQZtKwd1ysl8RgNx2 zKRbsUdMX/e/cWpDTGR0wH+i2z85aPViJUj7RcYgDNyWcbkdKoj56QNpHcvYIb9JHdAQ DGmDYhYY3bsifStZFCWGFnNyoMMFEVF+I2dQyPSBTHqXj086yt6Y7soY+BfuhWksJo4j c7B0fozc3TX3DskKO1QUb1iQZMLfzYudei8OGIbmiIiZmCJnxlOo4iyGYP9fe6YZg+Tb 233NVkvHfM7vVAJPMzms+rHZvsLGGwnMZl6hsXe8QNg2nS8XF6jvLCUdUhNgvd1PpVdw SXnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9LWdxz898wSU5eHikT8WboCiU2ekOOOrUoNpz9GSWh4=; b=tAQTk3lOBbPlnl6h0FKTM8UpuGE6WpU473a4m5PMXwAOq2FQ6PqMjnHWclzC2i5SpT HWWUov0PUo8djb/em55zHT9siUcvAxDDvfNEEyUc6EuXSTNeNAXQ/ahVdv/QKjgYHiSY HwnDc07zqMHlFKztpSPe2ZRFrFq6M9cwS5y6Pan56oPkSW1RtTQf5L6A4Zv30mjPVx9X FAY5kuKJBUT6iVD11FGlP1VQP/UER47VaXEHc2Mmz3KVONuoAyNe5CYm0p9vFkqMx2er tTRBnFHZ6utGBzBWDdmXL6z04PBNd5NepFqIIcUT0uVM7e9qVgdKSrOewkRJJSEIb4Bz JDJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531qCkBV3aRD4lLXbo/1MewywRJlsjd06wPCqGkrwxXOx1pze6/B iWHIFAtjkJ+XL8L/xllZA/8Chbg/5stvHg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEpsOrAdyOzx49ktjFtNjJSg3aHXQ1uFAii8NFQlKnIeiB799fj4QdUuTOw+96ClbcjMWCag== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9698:0:b029:19d:d63f:d2d2 with SMTP id f24-20020aa796980000b029019dd63fd2d2mr10792627pfk.4.1607369818286; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x1sm15391093pfj.95.2020.12.07.11.36.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:36:57 -0800 (PST) To: Russ Housley , admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <538dff84-405d-28ab-fa95-e2a6a4f90861@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 08:36:55 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [109all] Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 19:37:01 -0000 On 08-Dec-20 04:47, Russ Housley wrote: >> Jay, your blog post says "the majority of participants at 55% did not = use Gather. We clearly need to do more to encourage its use for social i= nteraction.=E2=80=9D >> >> I think that=E2=80=99s the wrong conclusion. If more than half the sur= vey respondents didn=E2=80=99t use Gather, it strongly suggests the tool = is not wanted or needed. >=20 > I think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. Wit= h a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee hours in my ti= me zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food and drink. Th= at was a much greater priority to be ready for the next session. When ch= airing the next session, one needs to get into Meetecho early enough to b= e sure that everything was set up and working. >=20 > I greatly missed the social aspects of a face-to-face meeting. The one= time I used Gather was to coordinate with someone about the session in t= he next slot. It was arranged ahead of time. I think Russ is correct about the mechanics of this. Combining participat= ion in actual meetings with essential human activities, time zone challen= ges, and the overlap with family life in the work-from-home scenario basi= cally means there's no real time for hanging around chatting. At least, t= hat's my experience. That does *not* mean that gather is a failure that s= hould be dropped. It just means that realistically, it will not be used b= y everybody. Also, we presumably have no statistics on how many people at f2f meetings= hang around chatting in the corridors. Maybe half of them don't. Brian From nobody Mon Dec 7 13:52:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73D83A0B61 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_cpPP8ouQU8; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E2973A0B50; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_19712604-8785-46B4-AA28-16987A546813" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 10:52:40 +1300 In-Reply-To: <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Russ Housley References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Social interaction and Gather (Was: Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 21:52:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_19712604-8785-46B4-AA28-16987A546813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Replying to a couple of messages at once: > On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 > I think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. = With a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee hours in = my time zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food and = drink. That was a much greater priority to be ready for the next = session. When chairing the next session, one needs to get into Meetecho = early enough to be sure that everything was set up and working. I agree - we=E2=80=99ve heard from many people that the breaks don=E2=80=99= t work as social interaction time for them. A specific social = interaction session was considered but rejected to avoid extending the = working day any further. Any ideas around this would be most welcome. > On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I agree with Lars that = something used by half of people shouldn't go away. But I also don't = think that the LLC needs to be in the business of encouraging people to = use Gather if they don't want to. The role of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to create a space that = meets peoples needs, provide the time for people to interact and tell = people about it. If we then find people try it and don=E2=80=99t like, = we will need to rethink this. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_19712604-8785-46B4-AA28-16987A546813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Replying to a couple of messages at once:

On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:

I = think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. =  With a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee = hours in my time zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food = and drink.  That was a much greater priority to be ready for the = next session.  When chairing the next session, one needs to get = into Meetecho early enough to be sure that everything was set up and = working.

I agree - we=E2=80=99ve heard from many people = that the breaks don=E2=80=99t work as social interaction time for them. =  A specific social interaction session was considered but rejected = to avoid extending the working day any further.  Any ideas around = this would be most welcome.

On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I sort of agree with both of you. = Specifically, I agree with Lars that something used by half of people = shouldn't go away. But I also don't think that the LLC needs to be in = the business of encouraging people to use Gather if they don't want = to.

The role of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to create a = space that meets peoples needs, provide the time for people to interact = and tell people about it.  If we then find people try it and = don=E2=80=99t like, we will need to rethink this.
Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_19712604-8785-46B4-AA28-16987A546813-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 14:03:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCC73A0B85; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hAm5p3sltwCT; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 676363A0B8B; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 0B7M2sT8026125; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:02:54 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3297722044; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:02:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D2DB22042; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:02:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([87.113.187.83]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 0B7M2rue004836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:02:53 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Jay Daley'" , "'Russ Housley'" Cc: References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 22:02:52 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <0ca001d6cce4$b64ba970$22e2fc50$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0CA1_01D6CCE4.B64C45B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGolHHiymgv9/bWP7JIImchzSgSfQIAUpTpAdBbvtgCbF88u6oWttYQ Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 87.113.187.83 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25836.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--22.941-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--22.941-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25836.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--22.941100-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IDdx3MBO6ECgh1QB23U82IM+duTM8cP1aMmm586o4gDNGG8oHt2JP+ql X7pY+dXdZKbF7L3VHr4vycDDeX0dX1Iq48tvI8/gdOyQXaFQISwZQ5OlJZJyCgyw1A6fdWX+tn2 P53ro+JMVXGV0/dnCGgSZZSyHB8132G9YBD7wlSgpSdnOjZRAPduO3HY6rheDD55kB+x0SjPZTA EszxrPVPHb+vtivruEPpoZXId6bBbmcBPrT/XEwPZvT2zYoYOwIiTd2l7lf6FykBtJrde+R0K9h jUAwyJeGoUcK80rmzrKHBviWj0QRpfctam8rr9AursqxVJtnFtj8U6KqOVjqRj9DPxfFdyo/7Kx hrHEar9yotaD5cbGBt1xL/T7D2JF/u0euujb/zH5WZT2GFh+ncnlJe2gk8vIfxl2qOxQoRXmvec 1u0T3Qxl27AelCMKoFJMTEk3jHBtzzdNlKTtXH+9VsdrlGzy3Q6/DFZugyt27/NQTVI1I+cxFQx p3PhHymoRv4vCWtWO3WBVXyEWl0u84LVBXtoHOWcC0gYMYIWj54F/2i/DwjSPS9JdK3W4/bgY8Q wl4o87lS2BlJV0Y0lfuIRg3vVpG8oEzakJLHA8iPTMUjkOgksC2kM0wuzzWpOwTxn+Ouv59u+Db 3mnsaVpA370DuhC0rMdpwFt61mRzySdTkJm1SmY0Io4Kxb86OS0bT53qXdWyy072phvASaPFjJE Fr+ol6AvlZUR4TshZZmMIUsIQGlOm2gN+nomsI/NGWt0UYPD3jT1fg0joxzLkD4ZmHL3bAIuG9f IIAJmiySiB/Es/O/NipRxyw/AH X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Social interaction and Gather (Was: Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 22:03:00 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0CA1_01D6CCE4.B64C45B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey,=20 =20 Have a social interaction session. Or several placed before or after the = day, so at least some time zone might find them less painful. No one is obliged to interact socially. (No one is obliged to go to the = welcome reception :-) =20 Depending on time zones, people might bring coffee or beer or mint tea. =20 Admittedly, anyone could have done this at the last two meetings, but if = you schedule time and flag it, people might realise their allowed to = talk to each other. =20 A =20 From: admin-discuss On Behalf Of Jay = Daley Sent: 07 December 2020 21:53 To: Russ Housley Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Social interaction and Gather (Was: Results = of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey) =20 Replying to a couple of messages at once: On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley > wrote: =20 I think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. With = a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee hours in my = time zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food and drink. = That was a much greater priority to be ready for the next session. When = chairing the next session, one needs to get into Meetecho early enough = to be sure that everything was set up and working. =20 I agree - we=E2=80=99ve heard from many people that the breaks = don=E2=80=99t work as social interaction time for them. A specific = social interaction session was considered but rejected to avoid = extending the working day any further. Any ideas around this would be = most welcome. =20 On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: =20 I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I agree with Lars that = something used by half of people shouldn't go away. But I also don't = think that the LLC needs to be in the business of encouraging people to = use Gather if they don't want to. =20 The role of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to create a space that = meets peoples needs, provide the time for people to interact and tell = people about it. If we then find people try it and don=E2=80=99t like, = we will need to rethink this. =20 Jay =20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0CA1_01D6CCE4.B64C45B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey,

 

Have a = social interaction session. Or several placed before or after the day, = so at least some time zone might find them less = painful.

No one is obliged to interact = socially. (No one is obliged to go to the welcome reception = :-)

 

Depending = on time zones, people might bring coffee or beer or mint = tea.

 

Admittedly, = anyone could have done this at the last two meetings, but if you = schedule time and flag it, people might realise their allowed to talk to = each other.

 

A

 

From: admin-discuss = <admin-discuss-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jay = Daley
Sent: 07 December 2020 21:53
To: Russ Housley = <housley@vigilsec.com>
Cc: = admin-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Social = interaction and Gather (Was: Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting = survey)

 

Replying to = a couple of messages at once:



On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> = wrote:

 

I = think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. =  With a 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee = hours in my time zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food = and drink.  That was a much greater priority to be ready for the = next session.  When chairing the next session, one needs to get = into Meetecho early enough to be sure that everything was set up and = working.

 

I = agree - we=E2=80=99ve heard from many people that the breaks = don=E2=80=99t work as social interaction time for them.  A specific = social interaction session was considered but rejected to avoid = extending the working day any further.  Any ideas around this would = be most welcome.

 

On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:

 

I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I = agree with Lars that something used by half of people shouldn't go away. = But I also don't think that the LLC needs to be in the business of = encouraging people to use Gather if they don't want = to.

 

The role of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to = create a space that meets peoples needs, provide the time for people to = interact and tell people about it.  If we then find people try it = and don=E2=80=99t like, we will need to rethink = this.

 

Jay

 

-- 
Jay = Daley

IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0CA1_01D6CCE4.B64C45B0-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 14:13:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA743A0B97 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:13:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wR1R0LIhSZYQ for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C95D3A0B6D for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id m13so659422ljo.11 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+7GLy7nb6tgdPCdJDPRZrz4kY2h3PtmnMF9CI5hxad0=; b=FZMKok8/hB8D6Rkb5YOcJMlvO9+ZyQRXdMnBhqISakX/98rQJ6JHq5fjoCh3NQPDsd PGw3eQivkhC4CFNYYnyTyhbGJCrtcDnmcKBx1JwRd9wKRa2obQIYdReEyfjH7x5jGqHp 3wqg4Pqc6JxRwEUbll4KX/sr1ka0fRQOmMbu7fMtAhR4iH/XFWU0zPZfWktfRYwCJlaK +RCM8tkvFlNNLyZuAAXdKLu3+xBaY0myWC5hMAGeUmTsbHcsZX8pEQ5PlGQIOzR7yFL1 Jj9q3cnAc9jccrtiEglVdtl0dLnm+3Z49R5k6yJKK7YwJPSjwXmrkUy1nBFK29xq459r wnCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+7GLy7nb6tgdPCdJDPRZrz4kY2h3PtmnMF9CI5hxad0=; b=AhHCGB5BbZWKOzk4sE96jCJAbh6dQdVRV1DM12211dJ01IjLnXum78xtjTaBY8qvmi JaAyHPt6dL7ctOUnL8ZFnNReQfyxvAZYMXEa8B25MpHR5jCNWWTL76WltIqVVP+rfYL8 x0xtbqtxmW3lpn2Rn3PE383nYr7DEUHVIEn1KKUPKxbhYNvJZfkt2wL1bRMXIFAELv7a qiRivWzJFr9GC9FZBiyYj3Pv/91W7Sjglewi3bZmzNHraIWqbFZTgl+env6f2XSEgxV2 X08oocBQ5aLse8zV5i6xiPq3bFPjeOobcs7gRZquSi/AP/IRzjoZ2SPISgDGl//svVn1 c3eg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531T11dSMRWQ9rLCPJiCHYH0kJOVeEZAZPq6lOqMdmY3geH7VBkw tCD+LMQMIoKc3Z+MhnqCZ46ktUSGpDcIso6xuTuN6D3hNm3iYw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZCsN/VzUT/gRATsaKVAd9Gm9dSpNO8nrS8rt/WrJP3QXlKaAVHGMEJZ1Gsxh6Jj6+xKnallYvIHmtPDnb+GQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b5b3:: with SMTP id f19mr977495ljn.199.1607379203265; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:13:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160732332696.27144.18241348989978342266@ietfa.amsl.com> <3CABA182-CF4F-4128-B7EC-F6C1B4E0494C@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:12:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Russ Housley , admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e291105b5e72247" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Social interaction and Gather (Was: Results of the IETF 109 post-meeting survey) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 22:13:27 -0000 --0000000000006e291105b5e72247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 1:52 PM Jay Daley wrote: > Replying to a couple of messages at once: > > On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley wrote: > > I think that the structure of the meeting had a lot to do with it. With = a > 30 minute break for a meeting that was held in the wee hours in my time > zone, I used the time for the restroom and getting food and drink. That > was a much greater priority to be ready for the next session. When > chairing the next session, one needs to get into Meetecho early enough to > be sure that everything was set up and working. > > > I agree - we=E2=80=99ve heard from many people that the breaks don=E2=80= =99t work as > social interaction time for them. A specific social interaction session > was considered but rejected to avoid extending the working day any > further. Any ideas around this would be most welcome. > > On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I sort of agree with both of you. Specifically, I agree with Lars that > something used by half of people shouldn't go away. But I also don't thin= k > that the LLC needs to be in the business of encouraging people to use > Gather if they don't want to. > > > The role of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to create a space that > meets peoples needs, provide the time for people to interact and tell > people about it. If we then find people try it and don=E2=80=99t like, w= e will > need to rethink this. > FWIW, I view 50% participation as success, not failure. -Ekr > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > -- > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss > --0000000000006e291105b5e72247 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 1:52 PM Jay Da= ley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
Replying to a couple of messages at once:

On 8/12/2020, at 4:47 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com= > wrote:

I think that the structure of the meetin= g had a lot to do with it.=C2=A0 With a 30 minute break for a meeting that = was held in the wee hours in my time zone, I used the time for the restroom= and getting food and drink.=C2=A0 That was a much greater priority to be r= eady for the next session.=C2=A0 When chairing the next session, one needs = to get into Meetecho early enough to be sure that everything was set up and= working.

I agree - we=E2= =80=99ve heard from many people that the breaks don=E2=80=99t work as socia= l interaction time for them.=C2=A0 A specific social interaction session wa= s considered but rejected to avoid extending the working day any further.= =C2=A0 Any ideas around this would be most welcome.

On 8/12/2020, at 3:08 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:<= /div>
I sort of agree with both of you. Speci= fically, I agree with Lars that something used by half of people shouldn= 9;t go away. But I also don't think that the LLC needs to be in the bus= iness of encouraging people to use Gather if they don't want to.

The r= ole of the LLC/Secretariat/IESG here is more to create a space that meets p= eoples needs, provide the time for people to interact and tell people about= it.=C2=A0 If we then find people try it and don=E2=80=99t like, we will ne= ed to rethink this.

FWIW, I view 50% participation as success, not failure.

-Ekr


Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

--
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discu= ss
--0000000000006e291105b5e72247-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 12:04:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8433A0AA0; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:04:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <160763068196.16263.9747046139362982357@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:04:41 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Password for LLC Board Meeting X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 20:04:42 -0000 Hello, Due to an mixup in the meeting settings, a password is required but was not posted for the LLC Board meeting beginning now. If you wanted to join the meeting as an observer, please enter the password "meetings" as shown below: Meeting link: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.phpMTID=me6ab0feb54c1f0bdeefb6e72b70ed97e Meeting number: 178 797 1273 Password: meetings We apologize for the error and the late notification of this password. All are welcome to join and observe the meeting! From nobody Mon Dec 14 00:35:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29C13A0BA9 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJucDyMvnV2b for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 402953A0BA4 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id a12so15526924wrv.8 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=HqZKKtzwJUe6KENfJHqnz9GaCx6QxMoOTkAOjpwmArQ=; b=qIyI3RmnPFQUAkqiaXZe06WLY6iP6p+MSZlewDwi41+ilEF8mWW9C5rj7ndo3SdaZX EvzLfVXoIJuUibGlyAi084kL9NgZTqNGUAR36Wq+eJsNPQl5yECuQwoOl5ZUwq2OCjvG SPYyJzm8A1o7ejF2kdNPll31p87qk3HDs2RspapsByq4qNmkeUi6LagEBhV7+HetkNFs PyXNf37ZSdBLl+1wS5yL+Q6gJ72zqmE4EYq3zmS5D10XKD9Q85wWK610j4LgyP50y/dB JYj8DO45mtNLLW7FMlGEggh/blMSyGFiULRqxIlHySCOAzx5D/pR5znx9DBQuTKLDCoT urOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=HqZKKtzwJUe6KENfJHqnz9GaCx6QxMoOTkAOjpwmArQ=; b=N6Fc4b0d4CEnYKtQ7UzvEFzKJ2b2yDdcwLi0t+mjzWVMSzUdCLBeLw2X7B+J4ELR6M 8bdYUW3L5CFo/AzYZ+4DezzWjG7mYW+WHuwn/pFyodKWtcpL20GiTHFrtBQ1YTMcQPGT ms5o/+G2LtFu+Ok0G2o75fuDMSlzVf3Acm+B97NRaEBEtF6IRHuXo53XZX6WhSBp5IhL NocNtxzz3M7ldaV2TDW0JUYtYuxQ164uk+7P82qBRX0yz6bgtBY4vMUZ3oZ8CkLz4bIe I1eZkGzwmjDw15bKYErcsN+zmPPAbtPrsQuxwgP/1f/EB4i/nDw/uAXP3yRUphM/qqjX TxBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ee2/IIcKd0htIoXkARgPcY6eNokBAP1OB60zugX07tPRh9HmH CgfSs6+DdhNS6d0jxgbW9QOgLt836/M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTdl1jg+YhL5pQJTrB6daxYd6YStE5WdQhrtua8E3BXHyPD6pWrBe5wUzlyPcQ8NXzcWNrNA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:d085:: with SMTP id y5mr22563342wrh.41.1607934919465; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:39e8:929f:f3a9:dcc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm27541885wmk.12.2020.12.14.00.35.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Dec 2020 00:35:18 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <5E5FE0DF-C44F-4E57-B09C-A1D21E5BB38D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2CE99E45-8D06-4BE2-903C-F9ED7732B701" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 08:35:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant To: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 08:35:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2CE99E45-8D06-4BE2-903C-F9ED7732B701 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with = in-person attendance down 15%." For 111 to go ahead with only 15% reduction requires most of the world = to get Covid under control and government imposed travel and meeting = restrictions to be lifted some months before July. Considering that = covid is out of control in so many countries, including the host = country, which is currently banning travel from Europe and China, this = seems somewhat unlikely. My planning assumption would be that it is remote, or is hybrid with = in-person attendance down TO 15%. You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but that also seems optimistic. - Stewart=20 *For the record I will be as close to the front of the vaccine line as I = can get. > On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, IETF Executive Director = wrote: >=20 > The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ >=20 > Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who = can also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion list = admin-discuss@ietf.org. Please provide any feedback before January 7th = 2021. >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail=_2CE99E45-8D06-4BE2-903C-F9ED7732B701 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


  • "IETF 111 and = IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with in-person = attendance down 15%."

For 111 to go ahead with only 15% = reduction requires most of the world to get Covid under control and = government imposed travel and meeting restrictions to be lifted some = months before July. Considering that covid is out of control in so many = countries, including the host country, which is currently = banning travel from Europe and China, this seems somewhat = unlikely.

My planning = assumption would be that it is remote, or is hybrid with = in-person attendance down TO 15%.

You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but = that also seems optimistic.

- Stewart 

*For the record I will be as close to the front of the = vaccine line as I can get.


On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

The = IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021:

   https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome = and should be made either directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who can also answer any = questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org.  Please provide any feedback = before January 7th 2021.

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

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AOAM533CHtR5JuZxeHthMtNpXaYF31NI6Zzr6+yRch33D4B9osKZ8MG8 NO8EowdAJ3XusnxU5qzrh9XwzfN7GhE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypynQjjrGB1F6/fs7SPXwE7CBvNDatydEZVjTIiFFW8k7laL0zofNi+vC7LymfbURVwWYhVg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7f52:: with SMTP id a79mr29171924wmd.157.1607975626549; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.50] ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c10sm33788406wrb.92.2020.12.14.11.53.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:53:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-06292A6A-C8B6-46E3-A16D-C765B3792F96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <1281BA4D-6D33-4E32-A6D3-F5482FFA56D4@cable.comcast.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:53:44 +0000 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <0C34F2EE-747B-4C54-96A2-7903F2F32DAD@gmail.com> References: <1281BA4D-6D33-4E32-A6D3-F5482FFA56D4@cable.comcast.com> To: "Livingood, Jason" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:53:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-06292A6A-C8B6-46E3-A16D-C765B3792F96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jason Just so I understand, are you saying that for a meeting to break even we nee= d 85% of the expected attendees to register? That seems within the normal me= eting variation. I agree with your personal forecast of events. Best regards Stewart Sent from my iPad > On 14 Dec 2020, at 14:44, Livingood, Jason w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > IIRC Jay put these in to figure out the most conservative case in terms of= cost, which is that in-person meetings occur and with a relatively high num= ber of attendees. The scenario you paint below =E2=80=93 which I agree is mo= re realistic =E2=80=93 will be a lower cost scenario. We could choose to eit= her assume only 1 in person meeting in November or no in person meetings but= the current scenario is the conservative one and it reflects the one for wh= ich we have agreements (that may or may not need to be severed or amended ba= sed on pandemic conditions). > =20 > My *personal* view is that either there will be no f2f meetings in 2021 or= those held will be comprised of mostly local / in-region participants facin= g lower travel restrictions =E2=80=93 with everyone else online. =46rom what= I have read, to come back in person we need 70%-80% global vaccination and t= his will take more than a year to achieve [1]. > =20 > Jason > =20 > [1] See recent WSJ story that suggests low contracted supply of vaccine st= ocks in the EU will cause a longer delay for those countries - https://www.w= sj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccination-in-europe-to-roll-out-slowly-1160771511= 5?mod=3Dsearchresults_pos2&page=3D1. > =20 > From: admin-discuss on behalf of Stewart B= ryant > Date: Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:35 AM > To: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" > Cc: Stewart Bryant > Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget > =20 > =20 > =20 > "IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with in-per= son attendance down 15%." > =20 > For 111 to go ahead with only 15% reduction requires most of the world to g= et Covid under control and government imposed travel and meeting restriction= s to be lifted some months before July. Considering that covid is out of con= trol in so many countries, including the host country, which is currently ba= nning travel from Europe and China, this seems somewhat unlikely. > =20 > My planning assumption would be that it is remote, or is hybrid with in-pe= rson attendance down TO 15%. > =20 > You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but that also seems optimistic. > =20 > - Stewart=20 >=20 >=20 > *For the record I will be as close to the front of the vaccine line as I c= an get. > =20 > =20 > On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, IETF Executive Director = wrote: > =20 > The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ >=20 > Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either dire= ctly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who can also a= nswer any questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@= ietf.org. Please provide any feedback before January 7th 2021. >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-06292A6A-C8B6-46E3-A16D-C765B3792F96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jason

Just so I und= erstand, are you saying that for a meeting to break even we need 85% of the e= xpected attendees to register? That seems within the normal meeting variatio= n.

I agree with your personal forecast of events.

Best regards

Stewart
<= div>
Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2020, at 14:44, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livi= ngood@comcast.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

IIRC Jay put these i= n to figure out the most conservative case in terms of cost, which is that i= n-person meetings occur and with a relatively high number of attendees. The s= cenario you paint below =E2=80=93 which I agree is more realistic =E2=80=93 will be a lower cost scenario. We could= choose to either assume only 1 in person meeting in November or no in perso= n meetings but the current scenario is the conservative one and it reflects t= he one for which we have agreements (that may or may not need to be severed or amended based on pandemic condit= ions).

 

My *personal* view i= s that either there will be no f2f meetings in 2021 or those held will be co= mprised of mostly local / in-region participants facing lower travel restric= tions =E2=80=93 with everyone else online. =46rom what I have read, to come back in person we need 70%-80% global vacc= ination and this will take more than a year to achieve [1].

 

Jason

 

[1] See recent WSJ s= tory that suggests low contracted supply of vaccine stocks in the EU will ca= use a longer delay for those countries - https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccination-in-europe-to-roll-out-slow= ly-11607715115?mod=3Dsearchresults_pos2&page=3D1.

 

From:= admin-discuss <a= dmin-discuss-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Stewart Bryant <stewart.br= yant@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:35 AM
To: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" <admin-discuss@ietf.org>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget

 

  •  <= /li>
  • =  
  • "IETF 111 and IET= F 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with in-person attendance down= 15%."

 

For 111 to go ahead with only 15% reduction requires most of= the world to get Covid under control and government imposed travel and meet= ing restrictions to be lifted some months before July. Considering that covid is out of control in so many cou= ntries, including the host country, which is currently banning tra= vel from Europe and China, this seems somewhat unlikely.

 

My planning assumption would be that it is remote,= or is hybrid with in-person attendance down TO 15%.

 

You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but that also s= eems optimistic.

 

- Stewart 



*For the record I will be as close to the front of th= e vaccine line as I can get.

 

 

On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, IETF Executive Director <= ;exec-director@ietf.org> wr= ote:

 

The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft bu= dget for 2021:

   https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-202= 1-draft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either direct= ly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who ca= n also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org.  = Please provide any feedback before January 7th 2021.

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announc= e



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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MvIQqI5cnGUw; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D3C4A3A0FCE; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:02:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <5C30F976-A5D5-4B53-B63A-BA1FAC6CDC91@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9581968A-255B-4158-B220-E2B9BC570B27" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:02:23 +1300 In-Reply-To: <0C34F2EE-747B-4C54-96A2-7903F2F32DAD@gmail.com> Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Stewart Bryant References: <1281BA4D-6D33-4E32-A6D3-F5482FFA56D4@cable.comcast.com> <0C34F2EE-747B-4C54-96A2-7903F2F32DAD@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:02:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9581968A-255B-4158-B220-E2B9BC570B27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 15/12/2020, at 8:53 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >=20 > Dear Jason >=20 > Just so I understand, are you saying that for a meeting to break even = we need 85% of the expected attendees to register? That seems within the = normal meeting variation. With 85% of the expected attendance we are budgeted to lose ~$220,000 = for the July IETF 111 meeting. The important point for me is that a budget is only a financial tool = used to enable and control expenditure, it=E2=80=99s not a plan in = itself but an enabler of multiple and sometimes conflicting, plans. To = minimise the adverse impact of changes it=E2=80=99s normal practice to = take a range of scenarios and settle on one of the most conservative = ones rather than one of the most likely ones. I could have explained = that better in the post.=20 Jay >=20 > I agree with your personal forecast of events. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Stewart >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 >> On 14 Dec 2020, at 14:44, Livingood, Jason = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> IIRC Jay put these in to figure out the most conservative case in = terms of cost, which is that in-person meetings occur and with a = relatively high number of attendees. The scenario you paint below =E2=80=93= which I agree is more realistic =E2=80=93 will be a lower cost = scenario. We could choose to either assume only 1 in person meeting in = November or no in person meetings but the current scenario is the = conservative one and it reflects the one for which we have agreements = (that may or may not need to be severed or amended based on pandemic = conditions). >> =20 >> My *personal* view is that either there will be no f2f meetings in = 2021 or those held will be comprised of mostly local / in-region = participants facing lower travel restrictions =E2=80=93 with everyone = else online. =46rom what I have read, to come back in person we need = 70%-80% global vaccination and this will take more than a year to = achieve [1]. >> =20 >> Jason >> =20 >> [1] See recent WSJ story that suggests low contracted supply of = vaccine stocks in the EU will cause a longer delay for those countries - = https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccination-in-europe-to-roll-out-sl= owly-11607715115?mod=3Dsearchresults_pos2&page=3D1 = . >> =20 >> From: admin-discuss on behalf of = Stewart Bryant >> Date: Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:35 AM >> To: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" >> Cc: Stewart Bryant >> Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> "IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with = in-person attendance down 15%." >> =20 >> For 111 to go ahead with only 15% reduction requires most of the = world to get Covid under control and government imposed travel and = meeting restrictions to be lifted some months before July. Considering = that covid is out of control in so many countries, including the host = country, which is currently banning travel from Europe and China, this = seems somewhat unlikely. >> =20 >> My planning assumption would be that it is remote, or is hybrid with = in-person attendance down TO 15%. >> =20 >> You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but that also seems = optimistic. >> =20 >> - Stewart=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> *For the record I will be as close to the front of the vaccine line = as I can get. >> =20 >> =20 >> On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, IETF Executive Director = > wrote: >> =20 >> The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ = >>=20 >> Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org = , who can also answer any questions, or = to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org = . Please provide any feedback before = January 7th 2021. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce = >>=20 >>=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_9581968A-255B-4158-B220-E2B9BC570B27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 15/12/2020, at 8:53 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Jason

Just so I understand, are you saying that for a = meeting to break even we need 85% of the expected attendees to register? = That seems within the normal meeting = variation.

With = 85% of the expected attendance we are budgeted to lose ~$220,000 for the = July IETF 111 meeting.

The important = point for me is that a budget is only a financial tool used to enable = and control expenditure, it=E2=80=99s not a plan in itself but an = enabler of multiple and sometimes conflicting, plans.  To minimise = the adverse impact of changes it=E2=80=99s normal practice to take a = range of scenarios and settle on one of the most conservative ones = rather than one of the most likely ones.  I could have explained = that better in the post. 

Jay


I = agree with your personal forecast of events.

Best regards

Stewart

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2020, at = 14:44, Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
IIRC Jay put these in to figure out the most conservative = case in terms of cost, which is that in-person meetings occur and with a = relatively high number of attendees. The scenario you paint below =E2=80=93= which I agree is more realistic =E2=80=93 will be a lower cost = scenario. We could choose to either assume only 1 in person meeting in = November or no in person meetings but the current scenario is the = conservative one and it reflects the one for which we have agreements = (that may or may not need to be severed or amended based on pandemic = conditions).
 
My *personal* view is that either = there will be no f2f meetings in 2021 or those held will be comprised of = mostly local / in-region participants facing lower travel restrictions = =E2=80=93 with everyone else online. =46rom what I have read, to come = back in person we need 70%-80% global vaccination and this will take = more than a year to achieve [1].
 
Jason
 
[1] See recent WSJ story that = suggests low contracted supply of vaccine stocks in the EU will cause a = longer delay for those countries - https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccination-in-europe-to-= roll-out-slowly-11607715115?mod=3Dsearchresults_pos2&page=3D1.
 
From: admin-discuss <admin-discuss-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Stewart = Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 14, = 2020 at 3:35 AM
To: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" <admin-discuss@ietf.org>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] = IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget
 
  •  
  •  
  • "IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person = meetings but with in-person attendance down 15%."
 
For 111 to go ahead with only 15% reduction requires = most of the world to get Covid under control and government imposed = travel and meeting restrictions to be lifted some months before July. = Considering that covid is out of control in so many countries, including = the host country, which is currently banning travel from = Europe and China, this seems somewhat unlikely.
 
My planning assumption would be that it is = remote, or is hybrid with in-person attendance down TO 15%.
 
You might achieve 85% attendance at 112, but that = also seems optimistic.
 
- Stewart 


*For the record I will be as close to the front = of the vaccine line as I can get.
 
 
On 14 Dec 2020, at 02:27, = IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
 
The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its = draft budget for 2021:

   https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome = and should be made either directly to the IETF Executive Director = at exec-director@ietf.org, who = can also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion = list admin-discuss@ietf.org. =  Please provide any feedback before January 7th 2021.

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce


-- 
admin-discuss mailing = list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss<= /div>

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_9581968A-255B-4158-B220-E2B9BC570B27-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 14:10:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F013A0957; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:10:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NlUG6MaPvJ9G; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 122683A08FA; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id s2so21017524oij.2; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:10:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5cez1AY7oyWXFi3lMGZJbiYsxsyrU8x+SxECMhmdlYs=; b=o5ea9aNyVVqUTRPqpGUglxKeQErgWXMOpV8rA55uEzt9DMwEe0DeAHTBheIFH/1ixK ldEJmPnUGuzBOwq88CNa4zNYuTFFGp8XYvGalprC1CMqD2DJh8wxdg47+aNFNz/HplfJ VGqXIo/jeGSreHXJ2a0WV+qNPKneGpPh/6TxpJMkt13E32XfDS5+xI0VAd9EVNsnpFBA bzm0gTqxGNOFxD2BsB3hJUPFo7c8o/ln4jFxc387BrEztxtK8yBZAqG8sqER3CHstMSH Aegt11/QkNaoBN3EcjlDUtqQKISoyNZLK+Zuy5tVh8+3j+lx195jDVTDqKH80XADfztm lROQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5cez1AY7oyWXFi3lMGZJbiYsxsyrU8x+SxECMhmdlYs=; b=bQoGfj0kPQm5gWmEzYl/q3L9P5oFULWE0o+CBuKAJA9VRAfMTFL/9h20MAetQUhT6E rhEhya9G9g/c/BiJVgqdOAI+vDM/5nV0JaKvBKIoZ/9kWXFXtjEdadetXTq++15qo1PZ GJV5s2vbthObEHMTL6DMWzv4Q6ql+SHsfCxvCoK3TibRdVeSxby6+Tt6dmTASXnQMV6A uYVI3mYTflm3PXhvgCKM0gln+JT1IEBDqJ97ocfT5s/69u8KQwTTuUxMXK12Ew7vvkO4 RBSlRjMhwcLayhrmSvrZ71xJjLWR5pmnZ1z1UFqASA4pWAvcB6EH/oEg9s31abaEQAY6 Bi1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uIuekq3G/qDt1Y5F34ZZN4PC8FwYYZBm55kSZoCn6enISIVn/ WoTVDSUFdtiNqlyH70V8boapdfIcJ9YW4KhgvyTzMiwKxak= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwq8SToj/sqwUMMXynmBY9S51Z2dK1dCRVosLaXkHeSi3GMbTGlqCF9Sx1YO4fFOpG0wwgZKpncrt1ZULyOkuo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:991:: with SMTP id a17mr19448046oic.167.1607983806131; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:10:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:09:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: admin-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091b08c05b673e7bf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:10:09 -0000 --00000000000091b08c05b673e7bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for providing the budget and, in particular, for the detailed assumptions. For this one: IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with in-person attendance down 15%. Is the assumption that each will be down 15% or that taken together the total undercount would be 15% over the two meetings? I ask because it seems likely that the return to comfort with in-person meetings might build over time. If IETF 111 takes place in San Francisco, it will be during the last week of July, 2021. Current reports highlight the uncertainty of vaccine distribution plans for California ( https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-12/heres-a-timeline-of-when-the-general-public-can-expect-the-covid-19-vaccine helpfully tells us that it might be "Spring, Summer, or Fall"). Given that, will the LLC attempt to make the call early on this, or use a timeline which might result in later cancellation? regards, Ted Hardie On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:28 PM IETF Executive Director < exec-director@ietf.org> wrote: > The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ > > Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either > directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who > can also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion list > admin-discuss@ietf.org. Please provide any feedback before January 7th > 2021. > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > --00000000000091b08c05b673e7bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for providing the budget and, in particular, f= or the detailed assumptions.

For this one:

IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings= but with in-person attendance down 15%.

Is the as= sumption that each will be down 15% or that taken together the total underc= ount would be 15% over the two meetings?=C2=A0 I ask because it seems likel= y that the return to comfort with in-person meetings might build over time.=

If IETF 111 takes place in San Francisco, it = will be during the last week of July, 2021.=C2=A0 Current reports highlight= the uncertainty of vaccine distribution plans for California (https://www.latimes.co= m/california/story/2020-12-12/heres-a-timeline-of-when-the-general-public-c= an-expect-the-covid-19-vaccine helpfully tells us that it might be &quo= t;Spring, Summer, or Fall").=C2=A0 Given that, will the LLC attempt to= make the call early on this, or use a timeline which might result in later= cancellation?

regards,

T= ed Hardie

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:28 PM IETF Executive Director = <exec-director@ietf.org>= ; wrote:
The IET= F Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-d= raft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either direc= tly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who can also answer any = questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org.=C2=A0 Plea= se provide any feedback before January 7th 2021.

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@i= etf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announ= ce
--00000000000091b08c05b673e7bf-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 14:27:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CAC3A1036 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LGxsiHVv4LZ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 728503A102F; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 14:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <60BED811-FC53-45EE-8D97-B367BCEBBF8E@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1DE383AF-6744-4B09-B47B-A45F29D2A9DD" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:27:15 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Ted Hardie References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:27:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1DE383AF-6744-4B09-B47B-A45F29D2A9DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 15/12/2020, at 11:09 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 > Thanks for providing the budget and, in particular, for the detailed = assumptions. >=20 > For this one: >=20 > IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as in-person meetings but with = in-person attendance down 15%. >=20 > Is the assumption that each will be down 15% or that taken together = the total undercount would be 15% over the two meetings? I ask because = it seems likely that the return to comfort with in-person meetings might = build over time. 15% each. As a reminder, the scenarios in the budget are not chosen by = likelihood but financial impact such that the adverse impact of any = change is minimised. If we reach the threshold of 20% of people unable = to attend (whatever they might choose) then we switch online and the = finances immediately look better. > If IETF 111 takes place in San Francisco, it will be during the last = week of July, 2021. Current reports highlight the uncertainty of = vaccine distribution plans for California = (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-12/heres-a-timeline-of-w= hen-the-general-public-can-expect-the-covid-19-vaccine = helpfully tells = us that it might be "Spring, Summer, or Fall"). Given that, will the = LLC attempt to make the call early on this, or use a timeline which = might result in later cancellation? We will wait a few months and assess the situation then. =20 Jay >=20 > regards, >=20 > Ted Hardie >=20 > On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:28 PM IETF Executive Director = > wrote: > The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ = >=20 > Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org = , who can also answer any questions, or = to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org = . Please provide any feedback before = January 7th 2021. >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce = > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_1DE383AF-6744-4B09-B47B-A45F29D2A9DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 15/12/2020, at 11:09 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

Thanks for providing the budget = and, in particular, for the detailed assumptions.
For this one:

IETF 111 and IETF 112 will go ahead as = in-person meetings but with in-person attendance down 15%.

Is the assumption that = each will be down 15% or that taken together the total undercount would = be 15% over the two meetings?  I ask because it seems likely that = the return to comfort with in-person meetings might build over time.

15% each.  As a reminder, the scenarios in = the budget are not chosen by likelihood but financial impact such that = the adverse impact of any change is minimised.  If we reach the = threshold of 20% of people unable to attend (whatever they might choose) = then we switch online and the finances immediately look = better.

If IETF 111 takes = place in San Francisco, it will be during the last week of July, = 2021.  Current reports highlight the uncertainty of vaccine = distribution plans for California (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-12/heres-a-tim= eline-of-when-the-general-public-can-expect-the-covid-19-vaccine = helpfully tells us that it might be "Spring, Summer, or Fall").  = Given that, will the LLC attempt to make the call early on this, or use = a timeline which might result in later = cancellation?

We = will wait a few months and assess the situation then. =  

Jay


regards,

Ted Hardie

On Sun, Dec = 13, 2020 at 6:28 PM IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
The IETF Administration LLC has = prepared its draft budget for 2021:

    https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who can also answer any = questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org.  Please provide any feedback = before January 7th 2021.

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
--
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:59:16 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Jay Daley , Ted Hardie CC: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget Thread-Index: AQHW0mXRMU+AewCzhEqUXQ6GPt16san3K8CA///WpoA= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:59:16 +0000 Message-ID: <031FF920-3EDB-4B35-8093-B4BB83388784@cable.comcast.com> References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> <60BED811-FC53-45EE-8D97-B367BCEBBF8E@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <60BED811-FC53-45EE-8D97-B367BCEBBF8E@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.43.20110804 authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:41:200:4600:3954:537e:5595:ce3a] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c1f724a7-b77a-45c9-4bfe-08d8a094a582 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4710: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8a76875d-7c17-4ee2-d4b8-08d8a0fcb6d4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2020 13:24:13.1060 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: b9sxqL8epeGrHG4f82PDIKljRP7kMz22ElSyvOarTyxDCpp7TrV6XAf3IpiBfbun X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR02MB4910 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: C5CE5A56B1698A202019518FE2FC11343EBD95E1B111CC01A6F4CF16C31C189E2 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.343, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-12-15_10:2020-12-15, 2020-12-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=572 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012150094 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:24:29 -0000 > Air travel costs will return to pre-COVID levels. Everything I've been reading suggests that airlines will be increasing pric= es significantly once air travel starts to increase.=20 It's just a question of when the prices start going up. Also, it would appe= ar that long-haul international travel will see fares go up first. If we assume the November meeting is still in Madrid, and most people flown= in by IETF are located outside Europe, you may want to assume slightly higher travel costs than 2019 levels. Here is one article=20 https://www.rd.com/article/airfare-in-2021/ with quote "I think fares to farther-away destinations that have had perman= ent service reductions may stay up a bit closer to the higher average price= s from 2018 and earlier than the lower 2019 averages we saw".=20 This would probably only be relevant for Madrid, and wouldn't impact a SF J= uly meeting. BTW, I've seen elsewhere that we should expect even more severe airfare inc= reases in 2022 and beyond. But that's outside the scope of this budget. Barbara From nobody Tue Dec 15 11:52:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129953A16FD; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVYRoxUFB1ar; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D7DB3A16F9; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id c133so354703wme.4; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Kz6dvMHjHnVaxtDaYmMELoEJIenkzujxSlTjniiOJj4=; b=TWHvKUXSbqiI/HU1w9hM7NUDwR5A4r5Havt9TKgxIZrdRJyBFe9MDPN4dvZcISPZih eU+4kJrMS4Ru1HY5z+kyC7VnSDigtZuRwzxZ33NccgSVKaqz597m/hngwC+lzfTu+TcB Rg9/LupuYzqrXYARsICvOzFSgbaIRup4uvBUlBJ/s+UVT0Y9thB7qTIRPoJRp3AEdE6R m9kW+3EMR7YmcTciwM+GMScg+ntBWdERp07SpIzHtVx8KNSYSU7zJd1iH2x7Df4ZoL6H m8xsnBHhdcEIrOhk8vsceNFprezspJvCslpdOZvUlcIXyRpSt6Pj9Op3BZjTpTnuZimw 6wBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Kz6dvMHjHnVaxtDaYmMELoEJIenkzujxSlTjniiOJj4=; b=qCgbs9BSdM5+ChpFV3Z0m5/3b5TJpNxdVJzPfxhjz7zG7X2lideBTx2d/1tk7HPDP1 J6/DxET2Q6aOoIXLDZ07vR0vCd6ME560IWBeDdgIif0NpVuQL9QaPz82TudrPEkvFfzH oLAt9iymM82JaWl/Pw3vao46TMSPCCwkZM8gTmom/OER20W98TQyaHxfF22Zy28q33Ge J01hk6vq1tjwDAl+qfan3SzUQpAWplLztPU0k8gugS8pomSDeNJup6YXErlxBBM2OqsI I5ju3Z7TCJSqcW87ddeijJ0HKIRbq3RpjGrlcxpxMCwxXzqIbV/anusliQVcpaqGHkbE KwNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yEaLTpsnmE8L1ocjxhA6oTnER105w7y7ilCYu9SUQIi3YA/Cz mE/8FmeUSPgh5vxJu0AGrScjIk4Tki8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyvvkr3oWpD444l1vjS6qLZGTyU2rV5mdRT3HPYrgeI+Eh9Yk0DKbfzWF5W412bmDXI+xfHdA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c841:: with SMTP id c1mr483590wml.31.1608061934972; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:44aa:20e2:d6a9:47e1? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:44aa:20e2:d6a9:47e1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w13sm38683553wrt.52.2020.12.15.11.52.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:14 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5C6D58E2-AF88-4593-9F25-EB76B785078F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:52:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org To: IETF Executive Director References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:52:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5C6D58E2-AF88-4593-9F25-EB76B785078F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jay, Could you provide detail on direct staffing levels for the IETF LLC for = 2020 and what is planned for 2021 and beyond? That is, the number of = employees who work for the LLC. I did see the footnote, but would like to know which positions these are = now and going forward. Bob > On Dec 13, 2020, at 6:27 PM, IETF Executive Director = wrote: >=20 > The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ >=20 > Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who = can also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion list = admin-discuss@ietf.org. Please provide any feedback before January 7th = 2021. >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail=_5C6D58E2-AF88-4593-9F25-EB76B785078F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl/ZE+gACgkQrut0EXfn u6gkSwf/YndT51rO9JpXBSL175O2MfLotQg+n58OC/8wN+X933ShREJR4FYthiD2 Xz4qs40jkCPR6LyhoTklsQrTZljloC8XuVLxdnWNj6WUxRi2WcyDnoOUGqYNTYTn 11EF5HO/fkjTGqVhgFl3j9GiD5gW6+ZYMRWMS8I8mt85XiPvCm5tGv1e9vdbqmIf Q+I9WQw6L9sE96StIUruHqUp743+cWN0ezZylPvaVQxI92n5nwBT0YzGlx5UC6aZ nEc29xv7BRlGkiW9PPfb7+8pr7jjOixOi30dj88xQj9771y2ofKWgQB4ElFGGuu0 uEVBARmTcyipY6iGcwt02LWsuokQmQ== =wjie -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5C6D58E2-AF88-4593-9F25-EB76B785078F-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 11:57:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A913A16FD; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:56:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Executive Director To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <160806221900.12631.4148474775544833089@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:56:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2020 Year in Review & Survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:56:59 -0000 The IETF Administration LLC has published a new blog post titled "IETF LLC 2020 Year in Review & Survey" https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-2020-year-review-survey/ This post includes a very short survey that provides feedback direct to the IETF LLC board on performance in 2020 and priorities for 2021. -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Dec 15 12:06:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDB03A1706 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Ybl0GniV8jB; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4069A3A1703; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:06:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <3FD357D9-99A4-4871-BA73-416C558D4206@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2F90B02F-0506-4F66-9509-4DBD759342D1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:06:07 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Bob Hinden References: <160791282295.7077.6574510118862478361@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC 2021 Draft Budget X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:06:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2F90B02F-0506-4F66-9509-4DBD759342D1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DB25910-787B-411F-8F00-0151261643C4" --Apple-Mail=_9DB25910-787B-411F-8F00-0151261643C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Bob > On 16/12/2020, at 8:52 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Jay, >=20 > Could you provide detail on direct staffing levels for the IETF LLC = for 2020 and what is planned for 2021 and beyond? That is, the number = of employees who work for the LLC. There are currently two direct employees, me and Greg, with a third = planned for next year, a Director of Fundraising. The advert for this = job has just gone live and I=E2=80=99m in the process of writing an = announcement about it = https://candidates.perrettlaver.com/vacancies/2095/director_of_fundraising= / = cheers Jay >=20 > I did see the footnote, but would like to know which positions these = are now and going forward. >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >> On Dec 13, 2020, at 6:27 PM, IETF Executive Director = wrote: >>=20 >> The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for 2021: >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/ >>=20 >> Community feedback on the budget is welcome and should be made either = directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who = can also answer any questions, or to the administration discussion list = admin-discuss@ietf.org. Please provide any feedback before January 7th = 2021. >>=20 >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_9DB25910-787B-411F-8F00-0151261643C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Bob

On 16/12/2020, at 8:52 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Signed PGP part
Jay,

Could you = provide detail on direct staffing levels for the IETF LLC for 2020 and = what is planned for 2021 and beyond?    That is, the = number of employees who work for the LLC.

There are currently two direct employees, me and = Greg, with a third planned for next year, a Director of Fundraising. =  The advert for this job has just gone live and I=E2=80=99m in the = process of writing an announcement about it


cheers
Jay


I did see the footnote, but = would like to know which positions these are now and going forward.

Bob


On Dec 13, 2020, at 6:27 = PM, IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

The IETF Administration LLC has prepared its draft budget for = 2021:

  https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-2021-draft-budget/

Community feedback on the budget is welcome = and should be made either directly to the IETF Executive Director at exec-director@ietf.org, who can also answer any = questions, or to the administration discussion list admin-discuss@ietf.org.  Please provide any feedback = before January 7th 2021.

--
Jay= Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

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