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On 2011-12-01 08:17, TianLinyi wrote:
> Hi, All
>
> I think test would make it complicated. The test could result in <, >,
> <=, >=, = conditions.

"=", not the others. (Which, yes, maybe trick for complex objects)

> If we want something like HTTP If-Match mechanism, I would think it
> should not be in the JSON patch. We should keep JSON patch simple. The
> status code is better to be delivered in the protocol layer who delivers
> the JSON patch document.

It's not a status code, it's context information.

How do you deliver it when patching a JSON document in the local file 
system?

Best regards, Julian

From cabo@tzi.org  Thu Dec  1 04:26:38 2011
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What happens when a test fails?
-- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)
-- What is the response code you want to see?

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec  1 04:37:44 2011
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On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> What happens when a test fails?
> -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
> 	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)

I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.

> -- What is the response code you want to see?

409 comes to mind.

Best regards, Julian

From cabo@tzi.org  Thu Dec  1 04:47:14 2011
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On Dec 1, 2011, at 13:37, Julian Reschke wrote:

> On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> What happens when a test fails?
>> -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
>> 	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)
>=20
> I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.

I think so, too.
(Still, something should be said about what is supposed to happen if =
they don't -- is that a MUST detect then?)

My comment ("what happens") can be generalized to the entire section 5 =
of draft-pbryan-json-patch-02.txt=85  "Fails to complete" doesn't cut =
it, I think.

>> -- What is the response code you want to see?
>=20
> 409 comes to mind.

Sounds good.  I think that the media type spec should contain text =
suggesting a specific response code, to rein in the otherwise =
uncontrollable inventiveness of the implementers.  Could go in section =
5, too.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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On 2011-12-01 13:47, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On Dec 1, 2011, at 13:37, Julian Reschke wrote:
>
>> On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> What happens when a test fails?
>>> -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
>>> 	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)
>>
>> I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.
>
> I think so, too.
> (Still, something should be said about what is supposed to happen if they don't -- is that a MUST detect then?)

I would support that (MUST occur first).

> My comment ("what happens") can be generalized to the entire section 5 of draft-pbryan-json-patch-02.txt…  "Fails to complete" doesn't cut it, I think.
>
>>> -- What is the response code you want to see?
>>
>> 409 comes to mind.
>
> Sounds good.  I think that the media type spec should contain text suggesting a specific response code, to rein in the otherwise uncontrollable inventiveness of the implementers.  Could go in section 5, too.

Not sure. I think 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc5789.html#rfc.section.2.2> is quite 
clear on that.

Best regards, Julian

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Hi William,
Thank you for the review. I will reply to a couple of your points and I 
hope document editors will reply to the rest.

On 29/11/2011 06:24, William Mills wrote:
> I have been selected as the Applications Area Review Team reviewer for this draft (for background on apps-review, please seehttp://www.apps.ietf.org/content/applications-area-review-team).
>
> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07
> Reviewer: William J. Mills
> Review Date: November 28, 2011
> IETF Last Call Date:  October 25, 2011
>
> Review Summary:
>
> This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard, but should address the three major issues below before proceeding.  Some minor issues and nits are also noted.
>
> Document Summary:
>
> This document defines a pure SASL mechanism for OpenID, but it conforms to the new bridge between SASL and the GSS-API called GS2 [RFC5801], so it defines both a SASL and a GSS-API mechanism.
> .
>
> Major Issues:
>
> Section  1.2.  Applicability:  This section requires TLS but channel binding is not supported by the mechanism.  OpenID itself does not require TLS for client to relying party interactions, as integrity can be assured with a MAC signature and replayability is dealt with in the OpenID nonce.  Requiring TLS does not appear to be based on the underlying security profile of OpenID.  If TLS is ot be required channel binding should be supported.  If TLS is not required then there is the possibility of a DOS against the return_to entrypoint returned to the user, sending a false failure message.
>
>
> Section 3.2 Authentication Request:  In the second full paragraph defining transaction id, the language here probably isn't strong enough.    What it says now is
>
>     The form of this transaction is left to the RP to decide, but
>     SHOULD be large enough to be resistant to being guessed or attacked.
>
> (Nit: At the very least "transaction" needs to be "transaction id") I think it would be better if the current text is replaced with
>
>     The form of this transaction id is left to the implementer, but it
>     MUST be resistant to being guessed or attacked.
I agree with this, but the MUST by itself doesn't provide enough 
information about how to implement a conformant implementation, so ...
> I think MUST is justified here because the RP is possibly open to a DOS if the value is guessable.  A paragraph in the security considerations section might be warranted to talk about how to pick good unguessable values, although this has been done many times in many different specs.
... There is an RFC on generating good randomness: [RFC4086]. It should 
be cited here.
> Side comment: maybe we need an RFC just for this and then everyone can cite it.
>
> 3.3.  Server Response
>
> The problem I see here is that the result sent to the server that is "used to set state in the server accordingly" is not guaranteed to provide a username  that will be useful to the SASL endpoint.  The RP might get a full email address, or might get a bare username.  In the case of an IMAP server supporting multiple domains this may be significant.  The spec really should define how the SASL identities are determined from the response from the OP.
The authentication identity is specified in Section 3.1 (it is passed 
from the client to the server). However, two things are missing in the 
document:

1). A more precise definition of the authentication identity format. 
Section 3.1 says that it is a URI, but doesn't specify any specific URI 
scheme as mandatory to implement or even as recommended. Lack of 
specificity can lead to types of problem you point out above.

2). Section 3.3 should probably talk about whether any verification of 
the returned data can and should be performed to make sure that it 
corresponds to the identity requested. Unless editors can make a good 
argument why this doesn't belong in Section 3.3.
> It's possible that this could be solved by moving 6.1 and making it 3.3.1.  Identity mapping seems to fit better here than in security considerations.
>
>
> Minor issues:
>
> User confusion on names: The problem I see is one of confusion for the user of an OpenID enabled SASL client for Mail.  Some endpoint will need to be given usrename, some will be given an dOpenID endpoint.  Clarifying language might be useful to guide the client implementer.  Is there a disocvery method that the client can use ot go from a username/domain to the OpenID endpoint ot send to the RP?
>
> More examples:  I'd prefer to see an example of a failure flow included.  I tend to like examples though, and find them helpful in parsing the normative text.
>
> 3.3.  Server Response&  3.4.  Error Handling&  5. Example
>
> There's an inconsistency here I think could be better.  In the Exmaple we have a success case where the client returns and empty client message in order to prompt the server to finalize the SASL negotiation.  In the error handling case we have an explicit continuation from the client sending "=".   Is the "=" sign after the error return actually required or can this simply be an empty client message.  This means if the client knows the negotiation is complete and has not gotten a result it just always sends the empty message.
Personally I would appreciate an error case example.
> Nits:
>
> Section 1, 4th para, first sentence:  I would change "As currently envisioned, this mechanism is to allow" to "This mechanism allows".
>
> Section 1, 5th para, 2nd sentence: "will continued to be" change continued to continue.
Yeah, these make sense.

Best Regards,
Alexey, as the document shepherd.


From wmills@yahoo-inc.com  Thu Dec  1 08:36:36 2011
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Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 08:36:13 -0800 (PST)
From: William Mills <wmills@yahoo-inc.com>
To: William Mills <wmills@yahoo-inc.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid.all@tools.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [kitten] [APPS-REVIEW] review of draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07
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---1036955950-1173862516-1322757373=:30894
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I should have put a disclaimer in the review.=A0 My weakest subject in this=
 review is the GSS-API bridge, it looked right to me but I'm in no way auth=
oritative there. I know Hannes and Eliot are strong there though.=0A=0A-bil=
l=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: William Mills <wmill=
s@yahoo-inc.com>=0ATo: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>; "dr=
aft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-ope=
nid.all@tools.ietf.org> =0ACc: "kitten@ietf.org" <kitten@ietf.org>; "iesg@i=
etf.org" <iesg@ietf.org> =0ASent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:24 PM=0ASubj=
ect: [kitten] [APPS-REVIEW] review of draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07=0A =
=0AI have been selected as the Applications Area Review Team reviewer for t=
his draft (for background on apps-review, please see http://www.apps.ietf.o=
rg/content/applications-area-review-team). =0A=0APlease resolve these comme=
nts along with any other Last Call comments you may receive. Please wait fo=
r direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version =
of the draft.=0A=0ADocument: draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07=0AReviewer: W=
illiam J. Mills=0AReview Date: November 28, 2011=0AIETF Last Call Date:=A0 =
October 25, 2011=0A=0AReview Summary:=0A=0AThis draft is almost ready for p=
ublication as a Proposed Standard, but should address the three major issue=
s below before proceeding.=A0 Some minor issues and nits are also noted.=0A=
=0ADocument Summary:=0A=0AThis document defines a pure SASL mechanism for O=
penID, but it conforms to the new bridge between SASL and the GSS-API calle=
d GS2 [RFC5801], so it defines both a SASL and a GSS-API mechanism.=0A.=0A=
=0AMajor Issues:=0A=0ASection=A0 1.2.=A0=A0Applicability:=A0 This section r=
equires TLS but channel binding is not supported by the mechanism.=A0 OpenI=
D itself does not require TLS for client to relying party interactions, as =
integrity can be assured with a MAC signature and replayability is dealt wi=
th in the OpenID nonce.=A0 Requiring TLS does not appear to be based on the=
 underlying security profile of OpenID.=A0 If TLS is ot be required channel=
 binding should be supported.=A0 If TLS is not required then there is the p=
ossibility of a DOS against the return_to entrypoint returned to the user, =
sending a false failure message.=0A=0A=0ASection 3.2 Authentication Request=
:=A0 In the second full paragraph defining transaction id, the language her=
e probably isn't strong enough.=A0=A0=A0 What it says now is =0A=0A=A0=A0 T=
he form of this transaction is left to the RP to decide, but =0A=A0=A0 SHOU=
LD be large enough to be resistant to being guessed or attacked.=0A=0A(Nit:=
 At the very least "transaction" needs to be "transaction id") I think it w=
ould be better if the current text is replaced with=0A=0A=A0=A0 The form of=
 this transaction id is left to the implementer, but it=0A=A0=A0 MUST be re=
sistant to being guessed or attacked.=0A=0AI think MUST is justified here b=
ecause the RP is possibly open to a DOS if the value is guessable.=A0 A par=
agraph in the security considerations section might be warranted to talk ab=
out how to pick good unguessable values, although this has been done many t=
imes in many different specs.=A0 Side comment: maybe we need an RFC just fo=
r this and then everyone can cite it.=0A=0A3.3.=A0=A0Server Response=0A=0AT=
he problem I see here is that the result sent to the server that is "used t=
o set state in the server accordingly" is not guaranteed to provide a usern=
ame=A0 that will be useful to the SASL endpoint.=A0 The RP might get a full=
 email address, or might get a bare username.=A0 In the case of an IMAP ser=
ver supporting multiple domains this may be significant.=A0 The spec really=
 should define how the SASL identities are determined from the response fro=
m the OP.=0A=0AIt's possible that this could be solved by moving 6.1 and ma=
king it 3.3.1.=A0 Identity mapping seems to fit better here than in securit=
y considerations.=0A=0A=0AMinor issues:=0A=0AUser confusion on names: The p=
roblem I see is one of confusion for the user of an OpenID enabled SASL cli=
ent for Mail.=A0 Some endpoint will need to be given usrename, some will be=
 given an dOpenID endpoint.=A0 Clarifying language might be useful to guide=
 the client implementer.=A0 Is there a disocvery method that the client can=
 use ot go from a username/domain to the OpenID endpoint ot send to the RP?=
=0A=0AMore examples:=A0 I'd prefer to see an example of a failure flow incl=
uded.=A0 I tend to like examples though, and find them helpful in parsing t=
he normative text.=0A=0A3.3.=A0=A0Server Response & 3.4.=A0=A0Error Handlin=
g & 5. Example=0A=0AThere's an inconsistency here I think could be better.=
=A0=A0In the Exmaple we have a success case where the client returns and em=
pty client message in order to prompt the server to finalize the SASL negot=
iation.=A0 In the error handling case we have an explicit continuation from=
 the client sending "=3D".=A0=A0 Is the "=3D" sign after the error return a=
ctually required or can this simply be an empty client message.=A0 This mea=
ns if the client knows the negotiation is complete and has not gotten a res=
ult it just always sends the empty message.=0A=0A=0ANits:=0A=0ASection 1, 4=
th para, first sentence:=A0 I would change "As currently envisioned, this m=
echanism is to allow" to "This mechanism allows".=0A=0ASection 1, 5th para,=
 2nd sentence: "will continued to be" change continued to continue.=0A_____=
__________________________________________=0AKitten mailing list=0AKitten@i=
etf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/kitten
---1036955950-1173862516-1322757373=:30894
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Co=
urier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><spa=
n>I should have put a disclaimer in the review.&nbsp; My weakest subject in=
 this review is the GSS-API bridge, it looked right to me but I'm in no way=
 authoritative there. I know Hannes and Eliot are strong there though.</spa=
n></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>-bill<br></span></div><div><=
br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: Courier New, courier, monaco, monospa=
ce, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new rom=
an, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D=
"2"> <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>=
 William Mills &lt;wmills@yahoo-inc.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht: bold;">To:</span></b> "apps-discuss@ietf.org" &lt;apps-discuss@ietf.org=
&gt;; "draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid.all@tools.ietf.org"
 &lt;draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid.all@tools.ietf.org&gt; <br><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "kitten@ietf.org" &lt;kitten@ietf.o=
rg&gt;; "iesg@ietf.org" &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-w=
eight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 28, 2011 10:24 PM<br> <b><s=
pan style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [kitten] [APPS-REVIEW]=
 review of draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07<br> </font> <br>=0AI have been =
selected as the Applications Area Review Team reviewer for this draft (for =
background on apps-review, please see http://www.apps.ietf.org/content/appl=
ications-area-review-team). <br><br>Please resolve these comments along wit=
h any other Last Call comments you may receive. Please wait for direction f=
rom your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.=
<br><br>Document: draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-openid-07<br>Reviewer: William J. =
Mills<br>Review Date: November 28, 2011<br>IETF Last Call Date:&nbsp; Octob=
er 25, 2011<br><br>Review Summary:<br><br>This draft is almost ready for pu=
blication as a Proposed Standard, but should address the three major issues=
 below before proceeding.&nbsp; Some minor issues and nits are also noted.<=
br><br>Document Summary:<br><br>This document defines a pure SASL mechanism=
 for OpenID, but it conforms to the new bridge between SASL and the GSS-API=
 called GS2 [RFC5801], so it defines both a SASL and a
 GSS-API mechanism.<br>.<br><br>Major Issues:<br><br>Section&nbsp; 1.2.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;Applicability:&nbsp; This section requires TLS but channel binding =
is not supported by the mechanism.&nbsp; OpenID itself does not require TLS=
 for client to relying party interactions, as integrity can be assured with=
 a MAC signature and replayability is dealt with in the OpenID nonce.&nbsp;=
 Requiring TLS does not appear to be based on the underlying security profi=
le of OpenID.&nbsp; If TLS is ot be required channel binding should be supp=
orted.&nbsp; If TLS is not required then there is the possibility of a DOS =
against the return_to entrypoint returned to the user, sending a false fail=
ure message.<br><br><br>Section 3.2 Authentication Request:&nbsp; In the se=
cond full paragraph defining transaction id, the language here probably isn=
't strong enough.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What it says now is <br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp=
; The form of this transaction is left to the RP to decide, but
 <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; SHOULD be large enough to be resistant to being guessed o=
r attacked.<br><br>(Nit: At the very least "transaction" needs to be "trans=
action id") I think it would be better if the current text is replaced with=
<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The form of this transaction id is left to the impleme=
nter, but it<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST be resistant to being guessed or attacked=
.<br><br>I think MUST is justified here because the RP is possibly open to =
a DOS if the value is guessable.&nbsp; A paragraph in the security consider=
ations section might be warranted to talk about how to pick good unguessabl=
e values, although this has been done many times in many different specs.&n=
bsp; Side comment: maybe we need an RFC just for this and then everyone can=
 cite it.<br><br>3.3.&nbsp;&nbsp;Server Response<br><br>The problem I see h=
ere is that the result sent to the server that is "used to set state in the=
 server accordingly" is not guaranteed to provide a username&nbsp;
 that will be useful to the SASL endpoint.&nbsp; The RP might get a full em=
ail address, or might get a bare username.&nbsp; In the case of an IMAP ser=
ver supporting multiple domains this may be significant.&nbsp; The spec rea=
lly should define how the SASL identities are determined from the response =
from the OP.<br><br>It's possible that this could be solved by moving 6.1 a=
nd making it 3.3.1.&nbsp; Identity mapping seems to fit better here than in=
 security considerations.<br><br><br>Minor issues:<br><br>User confusion on=
 names: The problem I see is one of confusion for the user of an OpenID ena=
bled SASL client for Mail.&nbsp; Some endpoint will need to be given usrena=
me, some will be given an dOpenID endpoint.&nbsp; Clarifying language might=
 be useful to guide the client implementer.&nbsp; Is there a disocvery meth=
od that the client can use ot go from a username/domain to the OpenID endpo=
int ot send to the RP?<br><br>More examples:&nbsp; I'd prefer to see
 an example of a failure flow included.&nbsp; I tend to like examples thoug=
h, and find them helpful in parsing the normative text.<br><br>3.3.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;Server Response &amp; 3.4.&nbsp;&nbsp;Error Handling &amp; 5. Example<b=
r><br>There's an inconsistency here I think could be better.&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
the Exmaple we have a success case where the client returns and empty clien=
t message in order to prompt the server to finalize the SASL negotiation.&n=
bsp; In the error handling case we have an explicit continuation from the c=
lient sending "=3D".&nbsp;&nbsp; Is the "=3D" sign after the error return a=
ctually required or can this simply be an empty client message.&nbsp; This =
means if the client knows the negotiation is complete and has not gotten a =
result it just always sends the empty message.<br><br><br>Nits:<br><br>Sect=
ion 1, 4th para, first sentence:&nbsp; I would change "As currently envisio=
ned, this mechanism is to allow" to "This mechanism
 allows".<br><br>Section 1, 5th para, 2nd sentence: "will continued to be" =
change continued to continue.<br>__________________________________________=
_____<br>Kitten mailing list<br><a ymailto=3D"mailto:Kitten@ietf.org" href=
=3D"mailto:Kitten@ietf.org">Kitten@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/kitten" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/kitten</a><br><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>
---1036955950-1173862516-1322757373=:30894--

From paul.bryan@forgerock.com  Thu Dec  1 09:55:51 2011
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I can project cases where multiple operations are performed, and you
can't determine the state until an operation is completed before being
in a position to test for the next operation. Forcing tests to be up
front will needlessly complicate diff implementations, will not reduce
any complexity on patch implementations, for no good reason as far as I
can tell

Paul 

On Thu, 2011-12-01 at 14:01 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:

> On 2011-12-01 13:47, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> > On Dec 1, 2011, at 13:37, Julian Reschke wrote:
> >
> >> On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> >>> What happens when a test fails?
> >>> -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
> >>> 	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)
> >>
> >> I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.
> >
> > I think so, too.
> > (Still, something should be said about what is supposed to happen if they don't -- is that a MUST detect then?)
> 
> I would support that (MUST occur first).
> 
> > My comment ("what happens") can be generalized to the entire section 5 of draft-pbryan-json-patch-02.txtâ€¦  "Fails to complete" doesn't cut it, I think.
> >
> >>> -- What is the response code you want to see?
> >>
> >> 409 comes to mind.
> >
> > Sounds good.  I think that the media type spec should contain text suggesting a specific response code, to rein in the otherwise uncontrollable inventiveness of the implementers.  Could go in section 5, too.
> 
> Not sure. I think 
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc5789.html#rfc.section.2.2> is quite 
> clear on that.
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
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I can project cases where multiple operations are performed, and you can't determine the state until an operation is completed before being in a position to test for the next operation. Forcing tests to be up front will needlessly complicate diff implementations, will not reduce any complexity on patch implementations, for no good reason as far as I can tell<BR>
<BR>
Paul <BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2011-12-01 at 14:01 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
On 2011-12-01 13:47, Carsten Bormann wrote:
&gt; On Dec 1, 2011, at 13:37, Julian Reschke wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; What happens when a test fails?
&gt;&gt;&gt; -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
&gt;&gt;&gt; 	(or do we stipulate &quot;test&quot; has to come before modifiers?)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.
&gt;
&gt; I think so, too.
&gt; (Still, something should be said about what is supposed to happen if they don't -- is that a MUST detect then?)

I would support that (MUST occur first).

&gt; My comment (&quot;what happens&quot;) can be generalized to the entire section 5 of draft-pbryan-json-patch-02.txt&#8230;  &quot;Fails to complete&quot; doesn't cut it, I think.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; -- What is the response code you want to see?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 409 comes to mind.
&gt;
&gt; Sounds good.  I think that the media type spec should contain text suggesting a specific response code, to rein in the otherwise uncontrollable inventiveness of the implementers.  Could go in section 5, too.

Not sure. I think 
&lt;<A HREF="http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc5789.html#rfc.section.2.2">http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc5789.html#rfc.section.2.2</A>&gt; is quite 
clear on that.

Best regards, Julian
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Dec  1 10:07:57 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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I'm creating the IESG ballot text right now and I have one question...

On 7/2/11 10:34 PM, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:

>> 9. OPEN. M. Yevstifeyev:
>> > 8.  Internationalisation Considerations
>> In designating a canonical URI, please see [RFC3986] for information
>> on URI encoding.
>>   
>> IRIs serve for this purpose.  I recommend either to rename the section
>> to Encoding considerations or skip it at all ( I personally like 2nd
>> variant).
>> --response by J. Reschke "I believe we'll need this section, and the
>> contents is fine; after all, this is what you have to think of with
>> respect to I18N, no?"
>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "RFC 5988 allows target and context URIs
>> to be IRIs.  Current draft has no provisions regarding this.  However,
>> the actual and current text matches encoding considerations better."
>> --response by J. Reschke: "Actually, there's nothing special about the
>> I18N for this link relation; so I believe the text should just state
>> that there's nothing to say in addition to RFC 5988, Section 8."
>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "Probably such approach is OK."
>> --response by M. Ohye, â€śJulian, would you like us to restate the
>> current text to explicitly mention there is nothing beyond RFC 5988,
>> or leave as-is?â€ť
> So let's wait for Julian's response.

As far as I can see, Julian never replied on the i18n topic. Did I miss
his post to the list?

Peter

-- 
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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On 2011-12-01 19:07, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> I'm creating the IESG ballot text right now and I have one question...
>
> On 7/2/11 10:34 PM, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
> ...
>>> I18N for this link relation; so I believe the text should just state
>>> that there's nothing to say in addition to RFC 5988, Section 8."
>>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "Probably such approach is OK."
>>> --response by M. Ohye, â€śJulian, would you like us to restate the
>>> current text to explicitly mention there is nothing beyond RFC 5988,
>>> or leave as-is?â€ť
>> So let's wait for Julian's response.
>
> As far as I can see, Julian never replied on the i18n topic. Did I miss
> his post to the list?

No, I probably never replied.

I don't think it matters. We can leave things as they are, or add 
another statement pointing to RFC 5988's I18N section.

Best regards, Julian

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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On 12/1/11 11:53 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2011-12-01 19:07, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> I'm creating the IESG ballot text right now and I have one question...
>>
>> On 7/2/11 10:34 PM, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
>> ...
>>>> I18N for this link relation; so I believe the text should just state
>>>> that there's nothing to say in addition to RFC 5988, Section 8."
>>>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "Probably such approach is OK."
>>>> --response by M. Ohye, â€śJulian, would you like us to restate the
>>>> current text to explicitly mention there is nothing beyond RFC 5988,
>>>> or leave as-is?â€ť
>>> So let's wait for Julian's response.
>>
>> As far as I can see, Julian never replied on the i18n topic. Did I miss
>> his post to the list?
> 
> No, I probably never replied.
> 
> I don't think it matters. We can leave things as they are, or add
> another statement pointing to RFC 5988's I18N section.
> 
> Best regards, Julian

Yeah, I would suggest:

OLD
   In designating a canonical URI, please see [RFC3986] for information
   on URI encoding.

NEW
   Internationalization considerations for link relations are provided
   in Section 8 of [RFC5988].

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, Joachim Kupke <joachim@kupke.za.net>, Maile Ohye <maileko@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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On 2011-12-01 19:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 12/1/11 11:53 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 2011-12-01 19:07, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> I'm creating the IESG ballot text right now and I have one question...
>>>
>>> On 7/2/11 10:34 PM, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> I18N for this link relation; so I believe the text should just state
>>>>> that there's nothing to say in addition to RFC 5988, Section 8."
>>>>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "Probably such approach is OK."
>>>>> --response by M. Ohye, â€śJulian, would you like us to restate the
>>>>> current text to explicitly mention there is nothing beyond RFC 5988,
>>>>> or leave as-is?â€ť
>>>> So let's wait for Julian's response.
>>>
>>> As far as I can see, Julian never replied on the i18n topic. Did I miss
>>> his post to the list?
>>
>> No, I probably never replied.
>>
>> I don't think it matters. We can leave things as they are, or add
>> another statement pointing to RFC 5988's I18N section.
>>
>> Best regards, Julian
>
> Yeah, I would suggest:
>
> OLD
>     In designating a canonical URI, please see [RFC3986] for information
>     on URI encoding.
>
> NEW
>     Internationalization considerations for link relations are provided
>     in Section 8 of [RFC5988].

Works for me.

Best regards, Julian

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-00.txt
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On 12/1/11 12:06 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 2011-12-01 19:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 12/1/11 11:53 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 2011-12-01 19:07, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> I'm creating the IESG ballot text right now and I have one question...
>>>>
>>>> On 7/2/11 10:34 PM, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>> I18N for this link relation; so I believe the text should just state
>>>>>> that there's nothing to say in addition to RFC 5988, Section 8."
>>>>>> --response by M. Yevstifeyev: "Probably such approach is OK."
>>>>>> --response by M. Ohye, â€śJulian, would you like us to restate the
>>>>>> current text to explicitly mention there is nothing beyond RFC 5988,
>>>>>> or leave as-is?â€ť
>>>>> So let's wait for Julian's response.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can see, Julian never replied on the i18n topic. Did I miss
>>>> his post to the list?
>>>
>>> No, I probably never replied.
>>>
>>> I don't think it matters. We can leave things as they are, or add
>>> another statement pointing to RFC 5988's I18N section.
>>>
>>> Best regards, Julian
>>
>> Yeah, I would suggest:
>>
>> OLD
>>     In designating a canonical URI, please see [RFC3986] for information
>>     on URI encoding.
>>
>> NEW
>>     Internationalization considerations for link relations are provided
>>     in Section 8 of [RFC5988].
> 
> Works for me.

I'll add that as an RFC Editor note so we can move forward.

Thanks!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From mnot@mnot.net  Thu Dec  1 13:51:49 2011
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I thought that at first too, but upon reflection I don't see how they're =
different from other directives -- other ones can fail too.=20


On 01/12/2011, at 11:37 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> On 2011-12-01 13:26, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> What happens when a test fails?
>> -- Keep or rewind the changes done so far?
>> 	(or do we stipulate "test" has to come before modifiers?)
>=20
> I think requiring them to come first makes a lot of sense.
>=20
>> -- What is the response code you want to see?
>=20
> 409 comes to mind.
>=20
> Best regards, Julian
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

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From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec  1 13:59:42 2011
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On 2011-12-01 22:51, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> I thought that at first too, but upon reflection I don't see how they're different from other directives -- other ones can fail too.
> ...

So whether the patch operation is atomic or not is implementation dependent?

Or are we saying the server needs to be able to deal with the operation 
being aborted in process, and roll back?

(just want to see that clarified)

Best regards, Julian

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On 02/12/2011, at 8:59 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> On 2011-12-01 22:51, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> I thought that at first too, but upon reflection I don't see how =
they're different from other directives -- other ones can fail too.
>> ...
>=20
> So whether the patch operation is atomic or not is implementation =
dependent?
>=20
> Or are we saying the server needs to be able to deal with the =
operation being aborted in process, and roll back?
>=20
> (just want to see that clarified)

RFC5789, section 2:

>    The server MUST apply the entire set of changes atomically and =
never
>    provide (e.g., in response to a GET during this operation) a
>    partially modified representation.  If the entire patch document
>    cannot be successfully applied, then the server MUST NOT apply any =
of
>    the changes.  The determination of what constitutes a successful
>    PATCH can vary depending on the patch document and the type of
>    resource(s) being modified.  For example, the common 'diff' utility
>    can generate a patch document that applies to multiple files in a
>    directory hierarchy.  The atomicity requirement holds for all
>    directly affected files.=20





--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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Indeed, RFC 5789 should make it unambiguous for HTTP PATCH. For other
uses of JSON Patch, it would be implementation-specific. This is why the
"fails to complete" verbiage is there...

Paul

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 09:12 +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote:

> On 02/12/2011, at 8:59 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
> > On 2011-12-01 22:51, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> >> I thought that at first too, but upon reflection I don't see how they're different from other directives -- other ones can fail too.
> >> ...
> > 
> > So whether the patch operation is atomic or not is implementation dependent?
> > 
> > Or are we saying the server needs to be able to deal with the operation being aborted in process, and roll back?
> > 
> > (just want to see that clarified)
> 
> RFC5789, section 2:
> 
> >    The server MUST apply the entire set of changes atomically and never
> >    provide (e.g., in response to a GET during this operation) a
> >    partially modified representation.  If the entire patch document
> >    cannot be successfully applied, then the server MUST NOT apply any of
> >    the changes.  The determination of what constitutes a successful
> >    PATCH can vary depending on the patch document and the type of
> >    resource(s) being modified.  For example, the common 'diff' utility
> >    can generate a patch document that applies to multiple files in a
> >    directory hierarchy.  The atomicity requirement holds for all
> >    directly affected files. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss



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Indeed, RFC 5789 should make it unambiguous for HTTP PATCH. For other uses of JSON Patch, it would be implementation-specific. This is why the &quot;fails to complete&quot; verbiage is there...<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 09:12 +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
On 02/12/2011, at 8:59 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:

&gt; On 2011-12-01 22:51, Mark Nottingham wrote:
&gt;&gt; I thought that at first too, but upon reflection I don't see how they're different from other directives -- other ones can fail too.
&gt;&gt; ...
&gt; 
&gt; So whether the patch operation is atomic or not is implementation dependent?
&gt; 
&gt; Or are we saying the server needs to be able to deal with the operation being aborted in process, and roll back?
&gt; 
&gt; (just want to see that clarified)

RFC5789, section 2:

&gt;    The server MUST apply the entire set of changes atomically and never
&gt;    provide (e.g., in response to a GET during this operation) a
&gt;    partially modified representation.  If the entire patch document
&gt;    cannot be successfully applied, then the server MUST NOT apply any of
&gt;    the changes.  The determination of what constitutes a successful
&gt;    PATCH can vary depending on the patch document and the type of
&gt;    resource(s) being modified.  For example, the common 'diff' utility
&gt;    can generate a patch document that applies to multiple files in a
&gt;    directory hierarchy.  The atomicity requirement holds for all
&gt;    directly affected files. 





--
Mark Nottingham   <A HREF="http://www.mnot.net/">http://www.mnot.net/</A>



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From dave@cridland.net  Thu Dec  1 15:07:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Request for review: draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience-04
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On Thu Dec  1 15:21:34 2011, SM wrote:
> Could you review draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience-04 before  
> December 15?  Please post your review to apps-discuss (see below),  
> and DO NOT post it to apps-review.

This is a great document. I will certainly read it again, and I may  
update my review as a result.

I haven't particularly been looking for editorial issues; none stood  
out.

I noticed that whilst some detail was provided well, other details  
were missing (which XMPP clients were used, for instance - I'm  
reasonably sure that while many support IPv6, some do not).

The choice of games seems odd as well - while Rome: Total War remains  
a popular RTS for a number of reasons, it's also very old. Crysis is  
comparitively old, too, as is Battelfield (now up to its second  
sequel). It'd be interesting to see whether more modern games  
actually support IPv6, in particular for LAN play, given that Win7  
typically acquires LAN IPv6 addresses.  I'll see if I can find out a  
little more information here.

Overall, though, this could be published as-is, and would be a  
valuable addition to the Informational corpus.

Dave.
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From jari.arkko@piuha.net  Thu Dec  1 15:22:25 2011
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Dave,

> On Thu Dec  1 15:21:34 2011, SM wrote:
>> Could you review draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience-04 before December 15?  Please post your review to apps-discuss (see below), and DO NOT post it to apps-review.
>
> This is a great document. I will certainly read it again, and I may update my review as a result.
>
> I haven't particularly been looking for editorial issues; none stood out.

Thanks for your comments!

>
> I noticed that whilst some detail was provided well, other details were missing (which XMPP clients were used, for instance - I'm reasonably sure that while many support IPv6, some do not).

We should add this information.

>
> The choice of games seems odd as well - while Rome: Total War remains a popular RTS for a number of reasons, it's also very old. Crysis is comparitively old, too, as is Battelfield (now up to its second sequel).

I'll pass along your note to my kids :-)

> It'd be interesting to see whether more modern games actually support IPv6, in particular for LAN play, given that Win7 typically acquires LAN IPv6 addresses.  I'll see if I can find out a little more information here.

Yes, indeed, and WoW in particular we hear now has the support. But I have not tested it (my kids don't have it...) If someone else could report on that it would be great.

>
> Overall, though, this could be published as-is, and would be a valuable addition to the Informational corpus.
>
> Dave.

Thanks again.

Jari


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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer 
for this draft (for background on appsdir, please 
see 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate 
).  The review is not being copied to the IESG as a Last Call has not 
been issued.

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments 
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document 
shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report-05
Title: Authentication Failure Reporting using the Abuse Report Format
Reviewer: S. Moonesamy
Review Date: December 2, 2011

Summary:

This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard.

Major issues:

None.

Minor Issues:

In the Abstract Section:

   "This memo registers an extension report type to ARF for use in
    reporting messages that fail one or more authentication checks"

In the Introduction Section:

   "There is now also a desire to extend the ARF format to include
    reporting of messages that fail to authenticate using known
    authentication methods"

   "Thus, this memo presents such extensions to the Abuse
    Reporting Format to allow for detailed reporting of message
    authentication failures."

In Section 3:

   "The current report format defined in [ARF] lacks some specific
    features required to do effective sender authentication reporting."

The use of "authentication" is not consistent throughout the text 
quoted above.  This drafts builds upon RFC 5451 in which DKIM and SPF 
are referred to as email authentication methods.  I suggest using the 
term "email authentication method" for consistency.

The wording "presents such extensions" in the Introduction Section is 
not clear.  Section 3.1 of the draft defines a new feedback type of 
"auth-failure" as an extension to RFC 5965.  Is there more than one 
extension?  This memo should update RFC 5965.

In Section 3.1:

   "Original-Envelope-Id:  As specified in [ARF].  This field SHOULD be
    included exactly once if available to the entity generating the
    report."

RFC 5965 defines the field as optional and MUST NOT appear more than 
once".  The above is a rewording of a requirement level.  I suggest 
rewriting the last sentence to remove the key word:

   As specified in [ARF].  This field is included only once if available to the
   entity generating the report.

  "Original-Mail-From:"

Please see the comment above about "Original-Envelope-Id".

  "Source-IP:  As specified in [ARF].  This field SHOULD be included
     exactly once for SPF, or for other methods that evaluate
     authentication during the SMTP phase."

Please see the comment above about "Original-Envelope-Id".  Why is 
there a "SHOULD" for SPF?

   "Reported-Domain:  As specified in [ARF].  This field MUST appear at
      least once."

Is it the format which is being imported from RFC 5965 or is it also 
what is specified for the field?

   'The third MIME part of the message is either of type "message/rfc822"
    (as defined in [MIME-TYPES]) or "text/rfc822-headers" (as defined in
    [REPORT]) and contains a copy of the entire header block from the
    original message.  This part MUST be included (contrary to [REPORT]).'

I suggest having a reference to draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc3462bis-04 
instead of RFC 3462 and removing the "(contrary to [REPORT])".

In Section 3.2.1:

   "Auth-Failure:  Indicates the type of authentication failure that is
      being reported.  The list of valid values is enumerated in
      Section 3.3."

What is being reported is the failure from an email authentication 
method and not an "authentication failure".

In Section 3.2.2:

   "policy:  The message was not delivered to the intended inbox due
      to authentication failure."

Please refer to my comment about the usage of "authentication failure".

Nits:

In Section 3.2.4:

   'DKIM-Canonicalized-Body:  A base64 encoding of the canonicalized body
       of the message as generated by the verifier.  The encoded content
       MUST be limited to those bytes that contribute to the DKIM body
       hash (i.e., the value of the "l=" tag; see Section 3.7 of [DKIM].'

I suggest replacing the word "bytes" with "octets" (RFC 6376).

   "If DKIM-Canonicalized-Header and DKIM-Canonicalized-Body encode
    redacted data, they MUST NOT be included.  Otherwise, they SHOULD be
    included.  The data presented there have to be exactly the
    canonicalized header and body as defined by [DKIM] and computed at
    the verifier.  This is because these fields are intended to aid in
    identifying message alterations that invalidate DKIM signatures in
    transit.  Including redacted data in them renders the data unusable.
   (See also Section 5 and Section 7.6 for further discussion.)"

It is better to restate the above as "SHOULD be included" and mention 
that it is not applicable if the date has been modified.  If the 
working group wants to mention "redacted data", it can include an 
informative reference to draft-ietf-marf-redaction-03.

Section 5 is the IANA Considerations Section.  The draft does not 
contain a Section 7.6.

In Section 3.2.5:

   "DKIM-ADSP-DNS: Includes the ADSP record discovered and applied by the
      entity generating this report"

I suggest:

   DKIM-ADSP-DNS It is the ADSP record used to obtain the ADSP result.

I did not include a "MUST" as there is already one in Section 3.3 (adsp).

In Section 3.3:

   "The list of defined authentication failure types"

Please refer to my previous comments about the usage of 
"authentication failure".

   "Supplementary data MAY be included in the form of [MAIL]-compliant
    comments."

Why is there a "MAY"?

There should be a normative reference to RFC 5234 given the ABNF in Section 4.

In Section 6.2:

   "Perhaps the simplest means of mitigating this threat is to assert
    that these reports should themselves be signed with something like
    DKIM."

I suggest removing the "something like".

 From the example in Appendix B.1:

  "Received: from mail.example.com (mail.example.com [192.0.2.1])
     by mx.example.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id c6cs67945pbm;
     Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:16:24 +0000 (GMT)
   Return-Path: feedback@arf.mail.example.net"

Isn't the Return-Path: mail header inserted before the Received: mail headers?

  "For more information about this format please see
    http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report"

I suggest adding a comment for the RFC Editor to reference "this RFC".

  "Policy-Action: none"

That field has not been defined.  I suggest that the working group 
reviews the example for correctness.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


From msk@cloudmark.com  Fri Dec  2 12:39:31 2011
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To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report.all@tools.ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 12:39:28 -0800
Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report-05
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Hi SM, thanks for the review.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 11:03 AM
> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report.all@tools.i=
etf.org
> Cc: marf@ietf.org
> Subject: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-rep=
ort-05
>=20
> This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard.
>=20
> Major issues:
>=20
> None.

Whew!

> Minor Issues:
>=20
> In the Abstract Section:
>=20
>    "This memo registers an extension report type to ARF for use in
>     reporting messages that fail one or more authentication checks"
>=20
> In the Introduction Section:
>=20
>    "There is now also a desire to extend the ARF format to include
>     reporting of messages that fail to authenticate using known
>     authentication methods"
>=20
>    "Thus, this memo presents such extensions to the Abuse
>     Reporting Format to allow for detailed reporting of message
>     authentication failures."
>=20
> In Section 3:
>=20
>    "The current report format defined in [ARF] lacks some specific
>     features required to do effective sender authentication reporting."
>=20
> The use of "authentication" is not consistent throughout the text
> quoted above.  This drafts builds upon RFC 5451 in which DKIM and SPF
> are referred to as email authentication methods.  I suggest using the
> term "email authentication method" for consistency.

Agreed.

There will probably be a few people concerned about the "authentication vs.=
 authorization" matter, but I think RFC5451 dealt with this reasonably well=
, and the field in general has come to be known as "email authentication". =
 But you're right that "sender" is misleading in terms of roles, especially=
 in the case of DKIM.  This draft has been around for a while and I guess t=
his text hasn't matured as fast as its brethren.

If it would help, we could add a reference to RFC5451 Section 1.5.2, which =
talks about the differences and their effective union in this area.

> The wording "presents such extensions" in the Introduction Section is
> not clear.  Section 3.1 of the draft defines a new feedback type of
> "auth-failure" as an extension to RFC 5965.  Is there more than one
> extension?  This memo should update RFC 5965.

I suppose it's worded that way because we created a new report type but had=
 to make a number of changes to IANA registries to do so, hence the plural.=
  But it really is one omnibus extension action.  I don't have a preference=
 as to wording; if the plural is confusing, we can change it.

> In Section 3.1:
>=20
>    "Original-Envelope-Id:  As specified in [ARF].  This field SHOULD be
>     included exactly once if available to the entity generating the
>     report."
>=20
> RFC 5965 defines the field as optional and MUST NOT appear more than
> once".  The above is a rewording of a requirement level.  I suggest
> rewriting the last sentence to remove the key word:
>=20
>    As specified in [ARF].  This field is included only once if available =
to the
>    entity generating the report.

The point of saying this is that RFC5965 allows for the absence or presence=
 of the field, but proscribes multiple instances of it.  We want to say, fo=
r this report type, that Original-Envelope-ID should be there, further limi=
ting the "absence" case.

Perhaps changing the SHOULD to a MUST above is better?

>   "Original-Mail-From:"
>=20
> Please see the comment above about "Original-Envelope-Id".

Ditto for me too.

>   "Source-IP:  As specified in [ARF].  This field SHOULD be included
>      exactly once for SPF, or for other methods that evaluate
>      authentication during the SMTP phase."
>=20
> Please see the comment above about "Original-Envelope-Id".

Ditto for me too.

> Why is there a "SHOULD" for SPF?

The Source-IP is a key piece of information for reconstructing why an SPF e=
valuation failed.  It needs to be there if it's available, or the failure r=
eport is basically incomplete.

>    "Reported-Domain:  As specified in [ARF].  This field MUST appear at
>       least once."
>=20
> Is it the format which is being imported from RFC 5965 or is it also
> what is specified for the field?

It is the same, except that RFC5965 makes it entirely optional.  For this r=
eport type, we want to see it at least once.

>    'The third MIME part of the message is either of type "message/rfc822"
>     (as defined in [MIME-TYPES]) or "text/rfc822-headers" (as defined in
>     [REPORT]) and contains a copy of the entire header block from the
>     original message.  This part MUST be included (contrary to [REPORT]).=
'
>=20
> I suggest having a reference to draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc3462bis-04
> instead of RFC 3462 and removing the "(contrary to [REPORT])".

I agree with the reference change, however the "contrary" part is correct b=
ecause [REPORT] says the third MIME part in a report is optional, while for=
 this specific instance of it, we want it to be there.  If it would help fo=
r illustration, we could say "(contrary to [REPORT], which makes it optiona=
l)".

> In Section 3.2.1:
>=20
>    "Auth-Failure:  Indicates the type of authentication failure that is
>       being reported.  The list of valid values is enumerated in
>       Section 3.3."
>=20
> What is being reported is the failure from an email authentication
> method and not an "authentication failure".

Fair enough.

> In Section 3.2.2:
>=20
>    "policy:  The message was not delivered to the intended inbox due
>       to authentication failure."
>=20
> Please refer to my comment about the usage of "authentication failure".

Yes.

> Nits:
>=20
> In Section 3.2.4:
>=20
>    'DKIM-Canonicalized-Body:  A base64 encoding of the canonicalized body
>        of the message as generated by the verifier.  The encoded content
>        MUST be limited to those bytes that contribute to the DKIM body
>        hash (i.e., the value of the "l=3D" tag; see Section 3.7 of [DKIM]=
.'
>=20
> I suggest replacing the word "bytes" with "octets" (RFC 6376).

OK.

>    "If DKIM-Canonicalized-Header and DKIM-Canonicalized-Body encode
>     redacted data, they MUST NOT be included.  Otherwise, they SHOULD be
>     included.  The data presented there have to be exactly the
>     canonicalized header and body as defined by [DKIM] and computed at
>     the verifier.  This is because these fields are intended to aid in
>     identifying message alterations that invalidate DKIM signatures in
>     transit.  Including redacted data in them renders the data unusable.
>    (See also Section 5 and Section 7.6 for further discussion.)"
>=20
> It is better to restate the above as "SHOULD be included" and mention
> that it is not applicable if the date has been modified.  If the
> working group wants to mention "redacted data", it can include an
> informative reference to draft-ietf-marf-redaction-03.

We actually had it the other way (as you suggest), and then changed it to t=
his because we thought this description was more effective, i.e., having th=
e strongest requirement first.

> Section 5 is the IANA Considerations Section.  The draft does not
> contain a Section 7.6.

Looks like they're hard references rather than soft ones.  I'll get the aut=
hor to fix it.

> In Section 3.2.5:
>=20
>    "DKIM-ADSP-DNS: Includes the ADSP record discovered and applied by the
>       entity generating this report"
>=20
> I suggest:
>=20
>    DKIM-ADSP-DNS It is the ADSP record used to obtain the ADSP result.

How about:

	DKIM-ADSP-DNS: Includes the ADSP policy used to obtain the verifier's ADSP=
 result.

("record" suggests an RRTYPE, and there isn't one specific to ADSP)

> I did not include a "MUST" as there is already one in Section 3.3
> (adsp).

We didn't either.  :-)

> In Section 3.3:
>=20
>    "The list of defined authentication failure types"
>=20
> Please refer to my previous comments about the usage of "authentication
> failure".

Agree.

>    "Supplementary data MAY be included in the form of [MAIL]-compliant
>     comments."
>=20
> Why is there a "MAY"?

SHOULD [NOT] and MUST [NOT] don't apply... :-)

Is there a problem with "MAY" there?

> There should be a normative reference to RFC 5234 given the ABNF in
> Section 4.

Wow, I don't know how I missed that one.  We'll add it.

> In Section 6.2:
>=20
>    "Perhaps the simplest means of mitigating this threat is to assert
>     that these reports should themselves be signed with something like
>     DKIM."
>=20
> I suggest removing the "something like".

I disagree, since one could also in theory use PGP or S/MIME for similar ef=
fect.  DKIM is just the most common example, and is actually in practical u=
se in ARF terms.

>  From the example in Appendix B.1:
>=20
>   "Received: from mail.example.com (mail.example.com [192.0.2.1])
>      by mx.example.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id c6cs67945pbm;
>      Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:16:24 +0000 (GMT)
>    Return-Path: feedback@arf.mail.example.net"
>=20
> Isn't the Return-Path: mail header inserted before the Received: mail
> headers?

Quite right.

>   "For more information about this format please see
>     http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report"
>=20
> I suggest adding a comment for the RFC Editor to reference "this RFC".

Yes, that would be the right thing to do.

>   "Policy-Action: none"
>=20
> That field has not been defined.  I suggest that the working group
> reviews the example for correctness.

Right, it should be removed.  And given some other comments made within the=
 WG, we'll be revisiting the example before it goes to the IESG.

Thanks again,
-MSK


From sm@elandsys.com  Fri Dec  2 14:33:14 2011
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Hi Murray,
At 12:39 02-12-2011, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
>There will probably be a few people concerned about the 
>"authentication vs. authorization" matter, but I think RFC5451 dealt 
>with this reasonably well, and the field

Agreed.

>If it would help, we could add a reference to RFC5451 Section 1.5.2, 
>which talks about the differences and their effective union in this area.

That may help if you want to avoid getting into a discussion about 
authentication v/s authorization.  The draft already references RFC 
5451 normatively.  A reference could be added in the Introduction Section.

>I suppose it's worded that way because we created a new report type 
>but had to make a number of changes to IANA registries to do so, 
>hence the plural.  But it really is one omnibus extension action.  I 
>don't have a preference as to wording; if the plural is confusing, 
>we can change it.

It can be argued either way.  The Abstract Section mentions "an 
extension report type to ARF".


>The point of saying this is that RFC5965 allows for the absence or 
>presence of the field, but proscribes multiple instances of it.  We 
>want to say, for this report type, that Original-Envelope-ID should 
>be there, further limiting the "absence" case.
>
>Perhaps changing the SHOULD to a MUST above is better?

Yes.

As an editorial comment, Section 3.2 of RFC 5965 uses two key words 
for the six header fields.  Section 3.1 of this draft uses ten key 
words for six header fields.  Imperatives should not only be used 
with care and sparingly; it also helps if the reader can easily 
identify what is required versus what is recommended.

>The Source-IP is a key piece of information for reconstructing why 
>an SPF evaluation failed.  It needs to be there if it's available, 
>or the failure report is basically incomplete.

Your reply clarifies when the "SHOULD" does not apply.  If it is a 
key piece of information which is necessary for interoperability, 
specify it as a requirement.

>It is the same, except that RFC5965 makes it entirely optional.  For 
>this report type, we want to see it at least once.

There could be an explanation about that in the draft.

>I agree with the reference change, however the "contrary" part is 
>correct because [REPORT] says the third MIME part in a report is 
>optional, while for this specific instance of it, we want it to be 
>there.  If it would help for illustration, we could say "(contrary 
>to [REPORT], which makes it optional)".

Ok.

>We actually had it the other way (as you suggest), and then changed 
>it to this because we thought this description was more effective, 
>i.e., having the strongest requirement first.

Ok.

>How about:
>
>         DKIM-ADSP-DNS: Includes the ADSP policy used to obtain the 
> verifier's ADSP result.
>
>("record" suggests an RRTYPE, and there isn't one specific to ADSP)

I used "record" as that is the term I found in RFC 5617.  The above sounds Ok.

>SHOULD [NOT] and MUST [NOT] don't apply... :-)
>
>Is there a problem with "MAY" there?

No. :-)

>I disagree, since one could also in theory use PGP or S/MIME for 
>similar effect.  DKIM is just the most common example, and is 
>actually in practical use in ARF terms.

Ok.

>Right, it should be removed.  And given some other comments made 
>within the WG, we'll be revisiting the example before it goes to the IESG.

Please note that the review is semi-formal.  The Application Area 
Directors may or may not agree with me about the issues identified in 
the review.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 


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Hi Barry,

I really don't know how I managed not to notice this note - so please 
excuse me for the late response (and I was additionally busy with some 
other work).

17.11.2011 4:23, Barry Leiba wrote:
> Responding to Alexey's comments and Mykyta's response to them, and
> adding my own review:
>
> I find the Introduction section to be pontificating, and I suggest
> avoiding that.  I'm talking about the reference to "Easter Eggs"
> and the rambling about the friendliness of about URIs compared
> with point-and-click interfaces.  I'm not going to pick on that
> further, but just think about taking some of that out.

I think I've said in Introduction what I really had to say.  As this is 
the minor issue, I don't think some change is needed.

>
> In the ABNF in 2.1:
>
> - By defining about-token as "segment", you're allowing these:
>
>    about:
>    about:?banana
>    about::::
>
>    Are you sure you don't want to define it as "segment-nz", or
>    even "segment-nz-nc".

<about:> should be allowed, but colons shouldn't.  However, as there is 
no evidence of use of 'about' URIs wtth tokens containing any of 
<sub-delims>, should we define:

*( unreserved / pct-encoded )


?

> - I think the definition of "about-query" is correct.

In what exact way?

>
> With reference to Alexey's comment about "redirect", if you hadn't
> ignored my review comments before, when you sent the wrong version
> for review, you'd have seen that I had comments on that as well.
> It's just wrong, and it needs to be fixed.
>
> In fact, let me take this opportunity to repeat the essence of my
> ignored comments.  Please do not ignore them this time.
>
> One general comment:
> Throughout the document, there are non-normative "may" and "should".
> People -- WG participants, last-call commenters, and ADs -- often push
> on those and look to have them changed to words that don't look so
> much like 2119 keywords, despite their being in lower case.  We
> usually change "may" to "might" or "can", depending upon context.  The
> "should" cases are harder, but do try to rephrase things to avoid
> using "should".  I hate this silly exercise, but it does save trouble
> with the nitpickers later.

I'll have look at such occurrences in the doc.

>
> Also, I suggest changing the single quote to a double quote, so
> "about" instead of 'about' (and I think the RFC Editor will do this
> anyway, if you don't).  You can do this in the XML by switching the
> quote marks:
> OLD:<section anchor="s-purp" title="Special-Purpose 'about' URIs">
> NEW:<section anchor="s-purp" title='Special-Purpose "about" URIs'>

I think I agree here.

>
> [...] I also don't like
> how the "redirect" part is put, because I think it might lead some to
> think that "about" URIs might often redirect to other resources on the
> Internet (imagine, say,"about:me?barryleiba"  redirecting to my web
> site, Facebook page, or some such).  How about this?:
>
> OLD
>     Therefore any application MAY resolve an 'about' URI to any
>     desired resource, and MAY redirect such URIs.  Several exceptions are
>     defined, though; they are named "special-purpose 'about' URIs" and
>     MUST be handled in strict accordance with provisions set in Section
>     2.2.1.
>
> NEW
>    Any application resolving an "about" URI MAY
>    choose the resource it is resolved to at its own discretion, with the
>    exception of those defined below as 'special-purpose "about" URIs'.
>    They MAY use internal redirection to accomplish this  (for
>    instance, Opera redirects all "about" URIs except"about:blank"
>    to its internal "opera" URIs).

I've already fixed this.

>
>
> Section 4.1:
> OLD
>     IANA is asked to update the register the 'about' URI scheme
>     using the following template, per [RFC4395]:
>
> It's useful to be very specific about the registry you want.
>
> NEW
>    IANA is asked to register the "about" URI scheme in the
>    "URI Schemes" registry defined in section 5.4 of RFC 4395
>    [RFC4395]:

Fixed.

>
>
> I don't think it's appropriate to specify the general IETF
> discussion list as the contact point (Author/Change controller).
> Put something "real" in there.

For example?

>
>
> Section 4.2:
> OLD
>     IANA is asked to set up a new registry entitled "'about'
>     URIs SPTs" following the guidelines below.
>
> In English, we don't use plurals like this.  We say "tool box", not
> "tools box", for example.  We should also expand the "SPT"
> abreviation in the registry name.
>
> NEW
>     IANA is asked to set up a new registry entitled "'about'
>     URI Special Purpose Tokens" following the guidelines below.

Corrected.

>
>
> Now, back to the new stuff.  I think the whole section on
> special-purpose stuff (2.2.1) becomes convoluted by being full of
> "SPT" and "SPU".  It's excessive.  Let me try to re-work the whole
> section here.  The "unresolvable" paragraph makes no sense to me,
> and I see no use case for it.  Unless there's been a documented
> need for it, we should not have it here.  I've eliminated that
> paragraph in my re-write.  I know you said something about HTML5,
> but you need to be more specific before we can add this.
> Remember: as a document editor, you may not just add things as you
> please.  We need consensus to add them.
>
> NEW
> --------------------------
>
> A small, though expandable, range of<about-token>s are reserved
> for special purposes ("special-purpose tokens").
>
> A special-purpose URI is an 'about' URI that has a special-purpose
> token as its<about-token>  part.  Such URIs MUST be handled in
> strict accordance with the rules defined in the special-purpose
> token registry (see Section 4.2).  The registered entry MAY also
> define additional provisions for handling of the<about-query>
> part.  If no such provisions are defined, the query part has no
> meaning, and MUST be ignored.
>
> This document defines one special-purpose token: "blank".
> The URI"about:blank"  MUST resolve to a blank page, as seen by
> the end user. There is no additional handling of the query
> component in"about:blank"  URIs.
>
> Additional special-purpose tokens can be defined by registering
> an registry created in Section 4.2. Special-purpose "about" URIs
> are intended to be uncommon, and new ones should be defined only
> when there is a need to strongly connect a particular
> <about-token>  with a particular function in all applications.

Agreed on changing this.

>
> --------------------------
>
> Section 2.2.2
>
> The first paragraph is pointless; please remove it.
>
> The second paragraph is full of problems, some of which Alexey
> commented on:
>
> OLD
>   An unrecognized 'about' URIs as a URI that may not be recognized by
>   an application.  (Correspondingly, such categorization is per-
>   application, not per-fact.)  An unrecognized 'about' URI SHOULD be
>   handled as the<about:blank>  URI, although other behavior is
>   possible.
>
> For the first sentence, I think you mean, "An unrecognized URI is
> a URI that is not recognized by a particular application."
> Again, that's kind of pointless, but OK for now.  The sentence in
> parentheses is simply not comprehensible.  I *think* you mean what
> I've captured in my rewrite of the first sentence, by adding the
> word "particular".  So let's remove that.
>
> But the main point is this: how is *interoperability* affected by
> the SHOULD in the third sentence?  Not at all.  In any case, I
> can't see any justification for something as strong as SHOULD.
> I suggest that this whole thing be made non-normative, this way:
>
> NEW
> When an application does not recognize a particular "about" URI,
> common practice is to handle it in the same way as"about:blank",
> though other handling is possible.

I think there is consensus on removing this paragraph, which I have 
already done, bas in of my text's results.

>
>
> Now for the meaty issue: the registration policy for the new
> registry in Section 4.2.  As I suggested in my ignored message:
>
> I don't think the registry needs "Specification Required", which
> implies expert review; I think that's overkill, and that there's no
> need for any expert review to be done.  I think we should use First
> Come First Served, and specify the level of documentation we want
> available.  Something like this (adjust as needed):
>
> NEW
>    The registration procedures for this registry are "First Come First
>    Served', described in RFC 5226 [RFC5226], with supporting
>    documentation meeting the requirements below.  The registrant
>    of the token MUST provide the following registration template,
>    which will be made available on IANA web site:
> ...
>      Specification.  REQUIRED field.  This provides documentation
>      at a level that could be used to create a compliant, interoperable
>      implementation of the registered "about" URI.  The full
>      specification SHOULD be included here, but it MAY be a
>      reference to a document published elsewhere, if there is a
>      reasonable expectation that the documentation will remain
>      available.  IANA will consult with the IESG or its specified
>      delegate if there is doubt about whether the specification is
>      adequate for the purpose.
>
> This provides for a sort of "expert review" only to determine whether
> the documentation is suitable, and does not have an expert at the gate
> to block registrations.  I think this is a perfect example of a
> registry where we'd rather have things registered and documented than
> not, so encouraging that with minimal hassle and minimal risk for
> rejection is best.

I agree with such wording.  What I added is:

>    o Specification.  This provides documentation at a level that could
>      be used to create a compliant, interoperable implementation of the
>      registered "about" URI.  The reference to a full specification MUST
>      be provided here, and there should be a reasonable expectation that
>      the documentation will remain available.  IANA will consult with
>      the IESG or its specified delegate if there is doubt about whether
>      the specification is adequate for the purpose.

Thanks for your assistance with text, Barry!  As soon as I receive a 
response to some of my remarks, I'll upload the -01 version of the draft.

Mykyta Yevstifeyev

>
> This mechanism is what had consensus in the room in Taipei.  We
> can discuss it on the mailing list now.
>
> Barry
>



From evnikita2@gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 21:37:59 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Webfinger
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Bjoern,

The "Author's Addresses" section is not ironic but just an unfilled 
template in XML source, I guess.  Moreover, Webfinger as well as 
original finger are supposed to be means of retrieving information which 
is publicly available, and this is decided by the owner of such 
information.  "If you don't like it, don't use it" principle is very 
relevant here, and I don't see reasons to argue.

Mykyta Yevstifeyev

24.11.2011 5:34, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote:
> * Paul E. Jones wrote:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger-00.txt
> There:
>
>     Suppose you meet somebody at a party and they provide you with their
>     email address.  After the party, you decide to visit your new
>     friend's blog to learn more about them.  How do you find it?  You
>     could search for your friend's name on the Internet or on various
>     social networking sites, but sometimes it is very hard to locate a
>     person or information about a person with merely an email address or
>     a name.
>
> I believe the technical term for that is "cyberstalking". What are you
> planning to do to ensure the draft properly addresses security, privacy,
> and netiquette issues? Right now the document seems to omit the reasons
> for why the finger protocol did not gain traction, which revolve around
> privacy and social engineering security issues, does not discuss neti-
> quette at all, just has a "if you don't like it, don't use it" remark
> in the Security Considerations, and has an ironic "Author's Addresses"
> section.


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme
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I think there are only two minor things left to respond to here:

>> I don't think it's appropriate to specify the general IETF
>> discussion list as the contact point (Author/Change controller).
>> Put something "real" in there.
>
> For example?

Fair question.  The problem is that we usually use either the document
author/editor or the working group mailing list, and in this case the
former isn't appropriate, and I'm not sure about the latter.  Hm....

I suggest that we either use <apps-discuss@ietf.org> or
<uri-review@ietf.org>, and I'm not sure which one is right.  Perhaps
others on apps-discuss, or perhaps the ADs, will comment.

>> NEW
>> =A0 The registration procedures for this registry are "First Come First
>> =A0 Served', described in RFC 5226 [RFC5226], with supporting
>> =A0 documentation meeting the requirements below. =A0The registrant
>> =A0 of the token MUST provide the following registration template,
>> =A0 which will be made available on IANA web site:
>> ...
>> =A0 =A0 Specification. =A0REQUIRED field. =A0This provides documentation
>> =A0 =A0 at a level that could be used to create a compliant, interoperab=
le
>> =A0 =A0 implementation of the registered "about" URI. =A0The full
>> =A0 =A0 specification SHOULD be included here, but it MAY be a
>> =A0 =A0 reference to a document published elsewhere, if there is a
>> =A0 =A0 reasonable expectation that the documentation will remain
>> =A0 =A0 available. =A0IANA will consult with the IESG or its specified
>> =A0 =A0 delegate if there is doubt about whether the specification is
>> =A0 =A0 adequate for the purpose.
>>
>> This provides for a sort of "expert review" only to determine whether
>> the documentation is suitable, and does not have an expert at the gate
>> to block registrations. =A0I think this is a perfect example of a
>> registry where we'd rather have things registered and documented than
>> not, so encouraging that with minimal hassle and minimal risk for
>> rejection is best.
>
> I agree with such wording. =A0What I added is:
>
>> =A0 o Specification. =A0This provides documentation at a level that coul=
d
>> =A0 =A0 be used to create a compliant, interoperable implementation of t=
he
>> =A0 =A0 registered "about" URI. =A0The reference to a full specification=
 MUST
>> =A0 =A0 be provided here, and there should be a reasonable expectation t=
hat
>> =A0 =A0 the documentation will remain available. =A0IANA will consult wi=
th
>> =A0 =A0 the IESG or its specified delegate if there is doubt about wheth=
er
>> =A0 =A0 the specification is adequate for the purpose.

I'm mostly fine with that.  In my suggested text, I put REQUIRED for
the field, and MAY for the separate documentation, because there will
likely be cases where the only specification needed is a couple of
sentences that can just be included here directly.  With "The
reference to a full specification MUST be provided here," we're
requiring that there always be a separate "full" specification, and I
think that'll just be excessive in many cases.

Note that when I said, "The full specification SHOULD be included
here," what I meant was that the full text of the specification SHOULD
be included right here in the field, rather than in a separate
document, but then added that there MAY be a separate document.  My
intent might not have been clear.

Do others have comments on this?

Barry

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme
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2011/12/3 Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>:

> I suggest that we either use <apps-discuss@ietf.org> or
> <uri-review@ietf.org>, and I'm not sure which one is right.
>=A0Perhaps others on apps-discuss, or perhaps the ADs, will
> comment.

Are you looking for a place where folks can ask questions
about:about after its registration?  Then I'd suggest the
traditional <uri@w3.org> if Mykyta has no immediate plans
to stop reading it.  The review list is better suited for
not yet registered URI schemes.

-Frank

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme
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> Are you looking for a place where folks can ask questions
> about:about after its registration? =A0Then I'd suggest the
> traditional <uri@w3.org> if Mykyta has no immediate plans
> to stop reading it. =A0The review list is better suited for
> not yet registered URI schemes.

Yes, that's right, and that sounds like a good place to me.

Barry

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---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barry Leiba" <barryleiba@computer.org>
To: "Mykyta Yevstifeyev (?. ?????????)" <evnikita2@gmail.com>
Cc: "Apps-discuss list" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 3:28 PM
I think there are only two minor things left to respond to here:

I suggest that we either use <apps-discuss@ietf.org> or
<uri-review@ietf.org>, and I'm not sure which one is right.  Perhaps
others on apps-discuss, or perhaps the ADs, will comment.

<tp>

apps-discuss has the support, procedures, the archives and so on
which I find ... well, supportive.

Tom Petch

</tp>

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To: SM <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, "Kathleen.Moriarty@emc.com" <Kathleen.Moriarty@emc.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.all@tools.ietf.org>
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Document:  draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
Title: Real-time Inter-network Defense
Reviewer: Larry Masinter
Review Date: 12/3/2011

Summary:
This draft is not ready for publication as a Proposed Standard and should b=
e revised before publication.

Major issues:
The document defines a language for describing a security incident intended=
 for exchange between services or service providers, but the terminology us=
ed for describing incidents and the extensibility and refinement of that te=
rminology is not clear and doesn't seem to be managed.
But this is a preliminary review about the status & intent...=20

Minor issues:
The status of the document seems to be confusing or incorrect.  The introdu=
ction says "This document moves Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) [RFC6=
045]    to Historic status as it provides minor updates."  And the status l=
ists that it "updates" RFC 6045.

In fact, the document seems to be a revision of all of RFC 6045
 http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Drfc6045&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mile-rfc604=
5-bis-01
which moves from "Informational"  to Standards Track.
There doesn't seem to be a summary of "Changes from RFC 6045" which explain=
s what changed, based on actual practice..


Details:

There are several namespaces of enumerated values ("TrafficType", "PolicyRe=
gion", ...) which seem to depend on a common understanding of the meaning o=
f the terminology, but which do not define the terms sufficiently (in my op=
inion) for anyone to know how to use this.

To pick a couple of examples:

PolicyRegion starts out with "region", and there are mysterious labels. "On=
e. Enum."
There is likely a convention in the document for this, but I think unless i=
t is an explicit table it is better to be more specific.=20

The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

But the terms "enterprise" and "service provider" are defined ... where? Is=
 my home network an enterprise? What is the scope or scale of an enterprise=
?  Could different service providers define what an "enterprise" is differe=
ntly? What is the utility of this value in an incident report?

>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government,
>  or other authorities assisting with an investigation.  If the law enforc=
ement agency resides within a different nation that
>  the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also =
be set .

Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indication, hint, of ho=
w to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local government" a=
cross the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisd=
iction? What about security incidents where there is some dispute about wha=
t constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this value? If you e=
xpect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple sources, don'=
t you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And if you don't, w=
hy is it standards track?

The extensibility of the protocol is unclear... how are these terms clarifi=
ed, how do they evolve, what happens when different organizations interpret=
 the terms differently? Is there a registry? Can the set of terms change? =
=20

I understand the desire to pass semantic information between multiple parti=
es about security incidents, but I think the fundamental problem is in the =
management of the evolution of a common understanding of the terminology an=
d namespace supplied.

Larry
--
http://larry.masinter.net


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme
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03.12.2011 16:28, Barry Leiba wrote:
> I think there are only two minor things left to respond to here:
>
>>> I don't think it's appropriate to specify the general IETF
>>> discussion list as the contact point (Author/Change controller).
>>> Put something "real" in there.
>> For example?
> Fair question.  The problem is that we usually use either the document
> author/editor or the working group mailing list, and in this case the
> former isn't appropriate, and I'm not sure about the latter.  Hm....
>
> I suggest that we either use<apps-discuss@ietf.org>  or
> <uri-review@ietf.org>, and I'm not sure which one is right.  Perhaps
> others on apps-discuss, or perhaps the ADs, will comment.

I think we should choose APPSAWG as Author/Change controller and 
correspondingly supply apps-discuss list as contact point, as long as 
this doc is produced in APPSAWG and there are no plans to close it in 
the nearest future.

>
>>> NEW
>>>    The registration procedures for this registry are "First Come First
>>>    Served', described in RFC 5226 [RFC5226], with supporting
>>>    documentation meeting the requirements below.  The registrant
>>>    of the token MUST provide the following registration template,
>>>    which will be made available on IANA web site:
>>> ...
>>>      Specification.  REQUIRED field.  This provides documentation
>>>      at a level that could be used to create a compliant, interoperable
>>>      implementation of the registered "about" URI.  The full
>>>      specification SHOULD be included here, but it MAY be a
>>>      reference to a document published elsewhere, if there is a
>>>      reasonable expectation that the documentation will remain
>>>      available.  IANA will consult with the IESG or its specified
>>>      delegate if there is doubt about whether the specification is
>>>      adequate for the purpose.
>>>
>>> This provides for a sort of "expert review" only to determine whether
>>> the documentation is suitable, and does not have an expert at the gate
>>> to block registrations.  I think this is a perfect example of a
>>> registry where we'd rather have things registered and documented than
>>> not, so encouraging that with minimal hassle and minimal risk for
>>> rejection is best.
>> I agree with such wording.  What I added is:
>>
>>>    o Specification.  This provides documentation at a level that could
>>>      be used to create a compliant, interoperable implementation of the
>>>      registered "about" URI.  The reference to a full specification MUST
>>>      be provided here, and there should be a reasonable expectation that
>>>      the documentation will remain available.  IANA will consult with
>>>      the IESG or its specified delegate if there is doubt about whether
>>>      the specification is adequate for the purpose.
> I'm mostly fine with that.  In my suggested text, I put REQUIRED for
> the field, and MAY for the separate documentation, because there will
> likely be cases where the only specification needed is a couple of
> sentences that can just be included here directly.  With "The
> reference to a full specification MUST be provided here," we're
> requiring that there always be a separate "full" specification, and I
> think that'll just be excessive in many cases.
>
> Note that when I said, "The full specification SHOULD be included
> here," what I meant was that the full text of the specification SHOULD
> be included right here in the field, rather than in a separate
> document, but then added that there MAY be a separate document.  My
> intent might not have been clear.

This is intentional, in order to make somebody who wants to register the 
token think whether such registration will really be useful.  I don't 
think somebody wanting to register about:his-surname will undertake 
writing a spec; but some standards body will, and this will be a 
warranty of a registered token being really useful (in theory, of 
course).  That's why I was advocating Specification Required policy, and 
still hold such view.

Mykyta Yevstifeyev

>
> Do others have comments on this?
>
> Barry
>


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report-05
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On 02/Dec/11 20:02, S Moonesamy wrote:
> From the example in Appendix B.1:
> 
>  "Received: from mail.example.com (mail.example.com [192.0.2.1])
>     by mx.example.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id c6cs67945pbm;
>     Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:16:24 +0000 (GMT)
>   Return-Path: feedback@arf.mail.example.net"
> 
> Isn't the Return-Path: mail header inserted before the Received: mail
> headers?

I think neither of those fields has to be exemplified.  Please see
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/marf/current/msg01510.html


From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Sat Dec  3 13:44:39 2011
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To: <masinter@adobe.com>, <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.all@tools.ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:07 -0500
Thread-Topic: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
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Hello Larry,

Thank you very much for the detailed review!  I have a couple of quick ques=
tions and will address your concerns with proposed text soon (WGLC ends on =
Monday, so I can update the document then to include your suggested changes=
 along with any others received).

Can you let me know if the section at the end of the introduction adequatel=
y addresses your request for the list of changes from RFC6045?  If not, wha=
t additional detail or formatting would be helpful to clear up this request=
?

I will go back through the terminology again to clarify terms better as req=
uested and to find out if the changes address your concerns (tomorrow or Mo=
nday via email to this list). =20

A little background:  In this space, groups share data using high level mar=
kers to indicate what groups you can share the data with and if it is sensi=
tive.  The markers in RID are more specific than what is used for sharing v=
ia email (etc.), but a mapping is easily created.  The "Traffic Light Proto=
col" just marks incidents as "red", "yellow", "green", and "white" which in=
tends to cover both of those areas.  Organizations decide how they want to =
share and mark it as such with policy agreements.  The policy part will hap=
pen more between groups before they share data.  Sharing in practice occurs=
 when parties know each other and have built a trust relationship or there =
is a client-vendor relationship.  Hopefully this will expand in the future,=
 but that's how it works now.  It is a delicate balance where parties may w=
ant the ability to interpret the terms and map to their policy and create s=
haring agreements.  Local for instance could be a region defined by a parti=
cular sharing group.  The ISACs int he US share across a particular industr=
y, but then there are other groups like the ACSC in the greater Boston area=
 that is cross industry and will limit participation to about 30 organizati=
ons for fear that if they get too large, people won't trust (because they d=
on't know the others int he group) and hence won't share.

Thanks again!
Kathleen

________________________________________
From: Larry Masinter [masinter@adobe.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:21 PM
To: SM; Moriarty, Kathleen; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-=
bis.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Document:  draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
Title: Real-time Inter-network Defense
Reviewer: Larry Masinter
Review Date: 12/3/2011

Summary:
This draft is not ready for publication as a Proposed Standard and should b=
e revised before publication.

Major issues:
The document defines a language for describing a security incident intended=
 for exchange between services or service providers, but the terminology us=
ed for describing incidents and the extensibility and refinement of that te=
rminology is not clear and doesn't seem to be managed.
But this is a preliminary review about the status & intent...

Minor issues:
The status of the document seems to be confusing or incorrect.  The introdu=
ction says "This document moves Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) [RFC6=
045]    to Historic status as it provides minor updates."  And the status l=
ists that it "updates" RFC 6045.

In fact, the document seems to be a revision of all of RFC 6045
 http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Drfc6045&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mile-rfc604=
5-bis-01
which moves from "Informational"  to Standards Track.
There doesn't seem to be a summary of "Changes from RFC 6045" which explain=
s what changed, based on actual practice..


Details:

There are several namespaces of enumerated values ("TrafficType", "PolicyRe=
gion", ...) which seem to depend on a common understanding of the meaning o=
f the terminology, but which do not define the terms sufficiently (in my op=
inion) for anyone to know how to use this.

To pick a couple of examples:

PolicyRegion starts out with "region", and there are mysterious labels. "On=
e. Enum."
There is likely a convention in the document for this, but I think unless i=
t is an explicit table it is better to be more specific.

The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

But the terms "enterprise" and "service provider" are defined ... where? Is=
 my home network an enterprise? What is the scope or scale of an enterprise=
?  Could different service providers define what an "enterprise" is differe=
ntly? What is the utility of this value in an incident report?

>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government,
>  or other authorities assisting with an investigation.  If the law enforc=
ement agency resides within a different nation that
>  the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also =
be set .

Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indication, hint, of ho=
w to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local government" a=
cross the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisd=
iction? What about security incidents where there is some dispute about wha=
t constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this value? If you e=
xpect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple sources, don'=
t you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And if you don't, w=
hy is it standards track?

The extensibility of the protocol is unclear... how are these terms clarifi=
ed, how do they evolve, what happens when different organizations interpret=
 the terms differently? Is there a registry? Can the set of terms change?

I understand the desire to pass semantic information between multiple parti=
es about security incidents, but I think the fundamental problem is in the =
management of the evolution of a common understanding of the terminology an=
d namespace supplied.

Larry
--
http://larry.masinter.net



From paul.bryan@forgerock.com  Sun Dec  4 15:47:45 2011
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From: "Paul C. Bryan" <paul.bryan@forgerock.com>
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I've submitted the latest draft of the JSON Patch Internet-Draft, posted
here:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-03

It includes new "move" and "test" operations, and addresses some
phrasing issues that was raised. Your review and feedback will be
appreciated.

Paul

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I've submitted the latest draft of the JSON Patch Internet-Draft, posted here:<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-03</A><BR>
<BR>
It includes new &quot;move&quot; and &quot;test&quot; operations, and addresses some phrasing issues that was raised. Your review and feedback will be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Paul
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From masinter@adobe.com  Sun Dec  4 18:36:36 2011
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From: Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
To: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:36:00 -0800
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From yutaka@g.oiwa.jp  Sun Dec  4 19:30:28 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] Discussion Place for CGI/1.1
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Dear experts in apps-discuss and httpbis,

where should we have talks on CGI/1.1 (RFC 3875), do you think?

# It may propose a small textual addition to httpbis, depending on the
# result of discussions.


A long description of topic is:

I heard of some Japanese discussion on the interfaces and its side-effect
of HTTP/1.1 and CGI/1.1 (RFC 3875, Informational).  It was a security issue,
but the problem itself was not a very interesting thing in context of IETF and a
workaround has been taken, so I'm not in scramble.

When I heard of that, I read RFC 3875.  It translates the names of HTTP headers
to environmental variable names (called in a different name in the spec) in the
following fashion: make it upper-case, replace all hyphens by underscores and
then prepend with "HTTP_".  The original author of CGI spec seems to be defining
the rule as translating "proper" HTTP names (e.g. Forwarded-for) into a
Unix-like good-looking environment variable name (HTTP_FORWARDED_FOR).

However, HTTP/1.1 allows so many "weired" characters in tokens, and the header
names are defined as tokens.  So, "X`Y'Z!" is a valid name for an HTTP header.
Under the current CGI spec, this weired name will result to "HTTP_X`Y'Z!", which
is the thing many people probably think not acceptable for variable name
(including common Unix shell meta characters).

Implementations of CGI/1.1 actually translate all special characters to
underscore, in this example "HTTP_X_Y_Z_".  Some intermediate gateway
did not expect this behavior, and the combination of these has caused
header forging (using X.Y.Z to override existing X-Y-Z header.)

# For curious people: the intermediate was actually a mobile carrier gateway,
# and the forged header was for a mobile device identifier number.
# The gateway removes any occurrence of it and added a proper one.
# Receivers check the source IP address, and if it is in some predefined
# range, they trust the content of such a header.
# Yes, it is really a bad idea, but do not claim its badness on me
# as I know it and it's not my fault :-)
## The gateway was aware of the fact that - and _ will be translated to
## indistinguishable ones in CGI interface.

Strictly following the spec, the web server behavior was against RFC 3875.
However, given the Unix customs and restrictions (which was obviously
the base of CGI specification), the actually-implemented behavior is
more-or-less understandable.  So, what should we do?

Possible solutions are:
  1) to explicitly allow the behavior of current implementations by
     appending rules that non-alnum MAY be translated to underscore.
     By this way, the responsibility will move to the intermediate
     in this case (it should filter out all like X.Y.Z, X!Y%Z, etc).

  2) Appending a text that headers with "weired" characters SHOULD be
     filtered out completely, instead of masking by underscores.
     Existing server implementations to be changed accordingly.
     (Actually, CGI/1.1 already allows some protocol-specific
      filtering of headers, with examples for Authorization-related ones).

  3) Do nothing.  Servers should pass weired characters as is, and
     CGI programmers should take care of that.
     Again, existing server implementations to be changed accordingly,
     and CGI programmers must be really careful to handle these weired things.

  4) Do really nothing: CGI is too old technology (!?) :-)

The solution 1) or 2) may be result as an errata or an update document.
If either 1) or 2) is a good thing, we may also want httpbis to add
a text for future header extensions suggesting that non-alnums except hyphens
are discouraged for any new header specifications.

Original source of problem description along with deployed workaround is in
<http://blog.tokumaru.org/2011/11/kddigw_29.html> in Japanese.

-- 
Yutaka OIWA, Ph.D.                                       Research Scientist
                            Research Center for Information Security (RCIS)
    National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST)
                      Mail addresses: <y.oiwa@aist.go.jp>, <yutaka@oiwa.jp>
OpenPGP: id[440546B5] fp[7C9F 723A 7559 3246 229D  3139 8677 9BD2 4405 46B5]

From mnot@mnot.net  Sun Dec  4 19:50:47 2011
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I think at a minimum there needs to be an errata against CGI.=20

Also worth a look is RFC3050 and Python's PEP-0333, which may have =
similar vulnerabilities.=20

apps-discuss is probably the right starting place.=20

HTTPbis already defers to RFC3864 for field-names, and I think that =
covers your concerns:
  http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3864#section-4.1

Cheers,


On 05/12/2011, at 2:30 PM, Yutaka OIWA wrote:

> Dear experts in apps-discuss and httpbis,
>=20
> where should we have talks on CGI/1.1 (RFC 3875), do you think?
>=20
> # It may propose a small textual addition to httpbis, depending on the
> # result of discussions.
>=20
>=20
> A long description of topic is:
>=20
> I heard of some Japanese discussion on the interfaces and its =
side-effect
> of HTTP/1.1 and CGI/1.1 (RFC 3875, Informational).  It was a security =
issue,
> but the problem itself was not a very interesting thing in context of =
IETF and a
> workaround has been taken, so I'm not in scramble.
>=20
> When I heard of that, I read RFC 3875.  It translates the names of =
HTTP headers
> to environmental variable names (called in a different name in the =
spec) in the
> following fashion: make it upper-case, replace all hyphens by =
underscores and
> then prepend with "HTTP_".  The original author of CGI spec seems to =
be defining
> the rule as translating "proper" HTTP names (e.g. Forwarded-for) into =
a
> Unix-like good-looking environment variable name (HTTP_FORWARDED_FOR).
>=20
> However, HTTP/1.1 allows so many "weired" characters in tokens, and =
the header
> names are defined as tokens.  So, "X`Y'Z!" is a valid name for an HTTP =
header.
> Under the current CGI spec, this weired name will result to =
"HTTP_X`Y'Z!", which
> is the thing many people probably think not acceptable for variable =
name
> (including common Unix shell meta characters).
>=20
> Implementations of CGI/1.1 actually translate all special characters =
to
> underscore, in this example "HTTP_X_Y_Z_".  Some intermediate gateway
> did not expect this behavior, and the combination of these has caused
> header forging (using X.Y.Z to override existing X-Y-Z header.)
>=20
> # For curious people: the intermediate was actually a mobile carrier =
gateway,
> # and the forged header was for a mobile device identifier number.
> # The gateway removes any occurrence of it and added a proper one.
> # Receivers check the source IP address, and if it is in some =
predefined
> # range, they trust the content of such a header.
> # Yes, it is really a bad idea, but do not claim its badness on me
> # as I know it and it's not my fault :-)
> ## The gateway was aware of the fact that - and _ will be translated =
to
> ## indistinguishable ones in CGI interface.
>=20
> Strictly following the spec, the web server behavior was against RFC =
3875.
> However, given the Unix customs and restrictions (which was obviously
> the base of CGI specification), the actually-implemented behavior is
> more-or-less understandable.  So, what should we do?
>=20
> Possible solutions are:
>  1) to explicitly allow the behavior of current implementations by
>     appending rules that non-alnum MAY be translated to underscore.
>     By this way, the responsibility will move to the intermediate
>     in this case (it should filter out all like X.Y.Z, X!Y%Z, etc).
>=20
>  2) Appending a text that headers with "weired" characters SHOULD be
>     filtered out completely, instead of masking by underscores.
>     Existing server implementations to be changed accordingly.
>     (Actually, CGI/1.1 already allows some protocol-specific
>      filtering of headers, with examples for Authorization-related =
ones).
>=20
>  3) Do nothing.  Servers should pass weired characters as is, and
>     CGI programmers should take care of that.
>     Again, existing server implementations to be changed accordingly,
>     and CGI programmers must be really careful to handle these weired =
things.
>=20
>  4) Do really nothing: CGI is too old technology (!?) :-)
>=20
> The solution 1) or 2) may be result as an errata or an update =
document.
> If either 1) or 2) is a good thing, we may also want httpbis to add
> a text for future header extensions suggesting that non-alnums except =
hyphens
> are discouraged for any new header specifications.
>=20
> Original source of problem description along with deployed workaround =
is in
> <http://blog.tokumaru.org/2011/11/kddigw_29.html> in Japanese.
>=20
> --=20
> Yutaka OIWA, Ph.D.                                       Research =
Scientist
>                            Research Center for Information Security =
(RCIS)
>    National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology =
(AIST)
>                      Mail addresses: <y.oiwa@aist.go.jp>, =
<yutaka@oiwa.jp>
> OpenPGP: id[440546B5] fp[7C9F 723A 7559 3246 229D  3139 8677 9BD2 4405 =
46B5]
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From paul.bryan@forgerock.com  Sun Dec  4 22:31:18 2011
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I quickly submitted another JSON Patch Internet-Draft, now posted here:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04

It now provides a usage example for each operation, fixes a few overt
typographical errors and cleans up further ambiguous phrasing.

Your review and feedback would be appreciated.

Paul

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
  <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; CHARSET=UTF-8">
  <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="GtkHTML/4.0.2">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
I quickly submitted another JSON Patch Internet-Draft, now posted here:<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04</A><BR>
<BR>
It now provides a usage example for each operation, fixes a few overt typographical errors and cleans up further ambiguous phrasing.<BR>
<BR>
Your review and feedback would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Paul
</BODY>
</HTML>

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From mnot@mnot.net  Mon Dec  5 03:18:01 2011
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On 05/12/2011, at 6:33 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <4EDC3AC0.70803@aist.go.jp>, Yutaka OIWA writes:
> 
>> Possible solutions are:
> 
>> 5) Replace all other "weird" characters than '-' with their %xx value.

mnot-mini:~> export FOO%20BAR=baz
-bash: export: `FOO%20BAR=baz': not a valid identifier

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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In message <4EDC3AC0.70803@aist.go.jp>, Yutaka OIWA writes:

>Possible solutions are:

>  5) Replace all other "weird" characters than '-' with their %xx value.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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In message <5D4538FB-B23B-48A6-827F-DC48B6717C46@mnot.net>, Mark Nottingham wri
tes:

>>> 5) Replace all other "weird" characters than '-' with their %xx value.
>
>mnot-mini:~> export FOO%20BAR=baz
>-bash: export: `FOO%20BAR=baz': not a valid identifier

Yeah, sorry for being unclear: I didn't mean to include the % in the
variable name:  FOO20BAR


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com  Mon Dec  5 12:47:09 2011
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To: <kathleen.moriarty@emc.com>, <masinter@adobe.com>, <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>,  <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.all@tools.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 15:46:34 -0500
Thread-Topic: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
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Hello Larry,

Thank you again for your review.  Please let me know if the responses below=
 adequately meet your concerns.  If so, I will update the document accordin=
gly.  There are no proposed changes that are technical in nature.  I tried =
to separate out each question to make it a bit easier to read...


Minor issues:
The "Updates" will be changed to "Obsoletes" in the updated version.  It wa=
s listed this way in the 00 version, I'll make sure this is in the template=
 for the document to prevent this from happening.

The document does move from informational to standards track.  Basically, t=
his was a working group item in INCH.  We finalized the work and the workin=
g group closed before the documents were published.  Because of the delay, =
they were published as informational.  Once they were published, interest i=
ncreased and it is part of the reason driving it for the move for standards=
 track.  The ability to automate the exchange of incident information in a =
secure way with policy considerations is greatly needed and this specificat=
ion is getting the most traction to solve the problem.

As mentioned in the previous response, the changes from RFC6045 to RFC6045-=
bis are included at the end of the introduction.  Please let me know if thi=
s addresses your concern.



Details:
Mysterious labels:
ENUM is for enumerated types, building from RFC 5070 which previously defin=
es:
" 2.7.  Enumerated Types

   Enumerated types are represented by the ENUM data type, and consist
   of an ordered list of acceptable values.  Each value has a
   representative keyword.  Within the IODEF schema, the enumerated type
   keywords are used as attribute values.

   The ENUM data type is implemented as a series of "xs:NMTOKEN" in the
   schema."

For attributes that use the ENUM type, It looks like I have "One" listed wh=
ere "REQUIRED" should be.  This is correct in the schema and I will update =
the text in the appropriate subsections of 4 to correct this issue.

Would you like to see the definitions from IODEF included in this document =
or just referenced as is the case now?

Right now, there is section 3.4 that points to IODEF:
"3.4. RID Data Types

   RID is derived from the IODEF data model and inherits all of the data
   types defined in the IODEF model.  One data type is added by RID:
   BOOLEAN."


I'll take the answer for this and replicate it for other data types as need=
ed (definitions, etc.) for how you would like to see it handled.
__________

Next issue is with terms, with one example provided:
The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

This does apply out to any use case where the client can be anything from a=
n individual to an enterprise.  Service provider is intended to be broad to=
 cover many use cases.  I will add more verbiage in this section to clarify=
 the intent.  The objective is really to have this used where there is a cl=
ient to provider relationship that may be bound by agreements and SLAs wher=
e there is typically some trust established through those relationships.  T=
his can also apply to a client and vendor scenario as the vendor may be pro=
viding a service.  I'll add the same text to the SPToClient definition as w=
ell.

Current text:
> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

Proposed text:
> ClientToSP.  A client initiated the request to their service provider (SP=
).  A client may be an individual, enterprise, or other type of entity (gov=
ernment, commercial, education, etc.).  A service provider may be a network=
, telecommunications, cloud, infrastructure, or other type of service provi=
der where a client to vendor relationship has been established.  The client=
 to vendor relationship will typically have established contracts or agreem=
ents to define expectations and trust relationships.

2.  SPToClient.  A service provider (SP) initiated a RID request or
    report to a client.  A client may be an individual, enterprise, or othe=
r type of entity (government, commercial, education, etc.).  A service prov=
ider may be a network, telecommunications, cloud, infrastructure, or other =
type of service provider where a client to vendor relationship has been est=
ablished.  The client to vendor relationship will typically have establishe=
d contracts or agreements to define expectations and trust relationships.

3.  IntraConsortium.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions within the boundaries of a consortium with the
          agreed-upon use and abuse guidelines. A consortium is a well defi=
ned group with established members and trust relationships specific to shar=
ing within that group.  A consortium would typically define the types of da=
ta that can be shared in advance, expectations on protecting that data, as =
well as having established contractual agreements.  Examples of Consortiums=
 may include industry focused sharing communities (Financial, government, r=
esearch and education, etc.) or cross industry sharing communities (for ins=
tance, organizations within local proximity that form a sharing group).

4.  PeerToPeer.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions between two peers but may require further
          evaluation before continuance beyond that point with the
          agreed-upon use and abuse guidelines.  PeerToPeer communications =
may involve any two individuals or entities that decide to share informatio=
n directly with each other.

5.  BetweenConsortiums.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions between consortiums that have established agreements=
 or contracts with use and abuse guidelines.  BetweenConsortiums is used wh=
en two Consortiums (as defined in IntraConsortium above) share data.  The t=
ypes of data that can be shared BetweenConsortiums should be identified in =
their agreements and contracts along with expectations on how that data sho=
uld be handled and protected.

_______

> What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisdiction? What about sec=
urity incidents where there is some dispute about what constitutes a "natio=
nal boundary"? How would one use this value?

Proposed additional text is in quotes.  This does not change the usage, but=
 better explains the capabilities and relationship to IODEF and extensions =
as well as agreements between entities.

     6.  AcrossNationalBoundaries.  This selection must be set if the
          message type will cross national boundaries.  "AcrossNationalBoun=
daries is used when data shared may have additional restrictions for handli=
ng and protection based on the type of data and where it resides.  The IODE=
F document included, as well as any extensions, with the RID message should=
 indicate the specific restrictions to be considered.  The national boundar=
y may be defined by existing regulations or other legal agreements specific=
 to a defined region.  The use of this AcrossNationalBoundaries is not lega=
lly binding unless contracts and agreements for entities who share data hav=
e deemed it as such through additional definitions that may include associa=
ted handling and protection requirements."  There could be
          instances of TraceRequest messages where that may not be known
          in advance, but should be known at the instance where
          boundaries are crossed during the investigation.  This must
          also be set if the security requirements of the request is
          based upon regulations of a specific nation that may not apply
          to all nations.  The stricter requirements should be upheld.
          This is different from the "BetweenConsortiums" setting since
          it may be possible to have multiple nations as members of the
          same consortium, and this option must be selected if the
          traffic is of a type that may have different restrictions in
          other nations.
_______________
Next issue was with "LawEnforcement"
>From Larry, " Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indicatio=
n, hint, of how to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local=
 government" across the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it =
a legal jurisdiction? What about security incidents where there is some dis=
pute about what constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this v=
alue? If you expect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple=
 sources, don't you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And i=
f you don't, why is it standards track?"

The working group discussed this very issue on the mailing list.  I think w=
hat is needed is some additional language in the draft to better explain ho=
w this is used.  This term was intentionally left ambiguous as the IODEF do=
cument included would have the specific contact information of the group th=
e sender interpreted as LawEnforcement.  This could be national or local po=
lice or even a government group like the FBI in the US.  Since this could d=
iffer around the world, the working group decided that the high level term =
that may affect how they protect the data and the extent to which it can be=
 shared was good for the RID level.  When you look at the IODEF document, t=
his will include the specific contact information of the recipient (much mo=
re granular than the type of Law Enforcement).


Current Text:
>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government, or other authorities assisting =
with an investigation.  If the law enforcement agency resides within a diff=
erent nation that the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumera=
tion MUST also be set .

Proposed Text:
>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government, or other authorities assisting =
with an investigation.  The usage of this value is interpreted by the sende=
r, and that interpretation may vary in regions of the world.  This value is=
 intentionally broad.  More detailed information on the receiving entity is=
 maintained in the Contact class of the IODEF document.  If the law enforce=
ment agency resides within a different nation that the sending entity, the =
"AcrossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also be set.
________

The types for TrafficRegion was also raised as a concern, but not as explic=
itly as the areas above.

In looking at these again, the only change I would suggest at this point is=
 the first sentence of Attack.

Current text:
1.  Attack.  This option should only be selected if the traffic is
          related to a network-based attack.

Proposed text:
1.  Attack.  This option should only be selected if the traffic is
          related to an information security incident or attack.

________

You also raised a question on extensibility.  The WG decided that we wanted=
 to restrict this to the ability to add enumerated values, either through o=
fficial means (standards document) or to sharing communities who may extend=
 to add their own values.  Throughout the schema, there is an ext-value inc=
luded, following the established extension mechanism for IODEF.  It points =
to the definition in RFC5070, section 5.1.  Does this address your concern =
or would you prefer to see the text included in this document.

I believe this addresses the outstanding questions.  Please let me know if =
you agree on the proposed text and how each question is addressed.

Thank you,
Kathleen



-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:44 PM
To: Larry Masinter; SM; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.=
all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Hello Larry,

Thank you very much for the detailed review!  I have a couple of quick ques=
tions and will address your concerns with proposed text soon (WGLC ends on =
Monday, so I can update the document then to include your suggested changes=
 along with any others received).

Can you let me know if the section at the end of the introduction adequatel=
y addresses your request for the list of changes from RFC6045?  If not, wha=
t additional detail or formatting would be helpful to clear up this request=
?

I will go back through the terminology again to clarify terms better as req=
uested and to find out if the changes address your concerns (tomorrow or Mo=
nday via email to this list).

A little background:  In this space, groups share data using high level mar=
kers to indicate what groups you can share the data with and if it is sensi=
tive.  The markers in RID are more specific than what is used for sharing v=
ia email (etc.), but a mapping is easily created.  The "Traffic Light Proto=
col" just marks incidents as "red", "yellow", "green", and "white" which in=
tends to cover both of those areas.  Organizations decide how they want to =
share and mark it as such with policy agreements.  The policy part will hap=
pen more between groups before they share data.  Sharing in practice occurs=
 when parties know each other and have built a trust relationship or there =
is a client-vendor relationship.  Hopefully this will expand in the future,=
 but that's how it works now.  It is a delicate balance where parties may w=
ant the ability to interpret the terms and map to their policy and create s=
haring agreements.  Local for instance could be a region defined by a parti=
cular sharing group.  The ISACs int he US share across a particular industr=
y, but then there are other groups like the ACSC in the greater Boston area=
 that is cross industry and will limit participation to about 30 organizati=
ons for fear that if they get too large, people won't trust (because they d=
on't know the others int he group) and hence won't share.

Thanks again!
Kathleen

________________________________________
From: Larry Masinter [masinter@adobe.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:21 PM
To: SM; Moriarty, Kathleen; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-=
bis.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Document:  draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
Title: Real-time Inter-network Defense
Reviewer: Larry Masinter
Review Date: 12/3/2011

Summary:
This draft is not ready for publication as a Proposed Standard and should b=
e revised before publication.

Major issues:
The document defines a language for describing a security incident intended=
 for exchange between services or service providers, but the terminology us=
ed for describing incidents and the extensibility and refinement of that te=
rminology is not clear and doesn't seem to be managed.
But this is a preliminary review about the status & intent...

Minor issues:
The status of the document seems to be confusing or incorrect.  The introdu=
ction says "This document moves Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) [RFC6=
045]    to Historic status as it provides minor updates."  And the status l=
ists that it "updates" RFC 6045.

In fact, the document seems to be a revision of all of RFC 6045
 http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Drfc6045&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mile-rfc604=
5-bis-01
which moves from "Informational"  to Standards Track.
There doesn't seem to be a summary of "Changes from RFC 6045" which explain=
s what changed, based on actual practice..


Details:

There are several namespaces of enumerated values ("TrafficType", "PolicyRe=
gion", ...) which seem to depend on a common understanding of the meaning o=
f the terminology, but which do not define the terms sufficiently (in my op=
inion) for anyone to know how to use this.

To pick a couple of examples:

PolicyRegion starts out with "region", and there are mysterious labels. "On=
e. Enum."
There is likely a convention in the document for this, but I think unless i=
t is an explicit table it is better to be more specific.

The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

But the terms "enterprise" and "service provider" are defined ... where? Is=
 my home network an enterprise? What is the scope or scale of an enterprise=
?  Could different service providers define what an "enterprise" is differe=
ntly? What is the utility of this value in an incident report?

>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government,
>  or other authorities assisting with an investigation.  If the law enforc=
ement agency resides within a different nation that
>  the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also =
be set .

Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indication, hint, of ho=
w to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local government" a=
cross the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisd=
iction? What about security incidents where there is some dispute about wha=
t constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this value? If you e=
xpect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple sources, don'=
t you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And if you don't, w=
hy is it standards track?

The extensibility of the protocol is unclear... how are these terms clarifi=
ed, how do they evolve, what happens when different organizations interpret=
 the terms differently? Is there a registry? Can the set of terms change?

I understand the desire to pass semantic information between multiple parti=
es about security incidents, but I think the fundamental problem is in the =
management of the evolution of a common understanding of the terminology an=
d namespace supplied.

Larry
--
http://larry.masinter.net



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Copying MILE

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:47 PM
To: Moriarty, Kathleen; Larry Masinter; SM; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ie=
tf-mile-rfc6045-bis.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Hello Larry,

Thank you again for your review.  Please let me know if the responses below=
 adequately meet your concerns.  If so, I will update the document accordin=
gly.  There are no proposed changes that are technical in nature.  I tried =
to separate out each question to make it a bit easier to read...


Minor issues:
The "Updates" will be changed to "Obsoletes" in the updated version.  It wa=
s listed this way in the 00 version, I'll make sure this is in the template=
 for the document to prevent this from happening.

The document does move from informational to standards track.  Basically, t=
his was a working group item in INCH.  We finalized the work and the workin=
g group closed before the documents were published.  Because of the delay, =
they were published as informational.  Once they were published, interest i=
ncreased and it is part of the reason driving it for the move for standards=
 track.  The ability to automate the exchange of incident information in a =
secure way with policy considerations is greatly needed and this specificat=
ion is getting the most traction to solve the problem.

As mentioned in the previous response, the changes from RFC6045 to RFC6045-=
bis are included at the end of the introduction.  Please let me know if thi=
s addresses your concern.



Details:
Mysterious labels:
ENUM is for enumerated types, building from RFC 5070 which previously defin=
es:
" 2.7.  Enumerated Types

   Enumerated types are represented by the ENUM data type, and consist
   of an ordered list of acceptable values.  Each value has a
   representative keyword.  Within the IODEF schema, the enumerated type
   keywords are used as attribute values.

   The ENUM data type is implemented as a series of "xs:NMTOKEN" in the
   schema."

For attributes that use the ENUM type, It looks like I have "One" listed wh=
ere "REQUIRED" should be.  This is correct in the schema and I will update =
the text in the appropriate subsections of 4 to correct this issue.

Would you like to see the definitions from IODEF included in this document =
or just referenced as is the case now?

Right now, there is section 3.4 that points to IODEF:
"3.4. RID Data Types

   RID is derived from the IODEF data model and inherits all of the data
   types defined in the IODEF model.  One data type is added by RID:
   BOOLEAN."


I'll take the answer for this and replicate it for other data types as need=
ed (definitions, etc.) for how you would like to see it handled.
__________

Next issue is with terms, with one example provided:
The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

This does apply out to any use case where the client can be anything from a=
n individual to an enterprise.  Service provider is intended to be broad to=
 cover many use cases.  I will add more verbiage in this section to clarify=
 the intent.  The objective is really to have this used where there is a cl=
ient to provider relationship that may be bound by agreements and SLAs wher=
e there is typically some trust established through those relationships.  T=
his can also apply to a client and vendor scenario as the vendor may be pro=
viding a service.  I'll add the same text to the SPToClient definition as w=
ell.

Current text:
> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

Proposed text:
> ClientToSP.  A client initiated the request to their service provider (SP=
).  A client may be an individual, enterprise, or other type of entity (gov=
ernment, commercial, education, etc.).  A service provider may be a network=
, telecommunications, cloud, infrastructure, or other type of service provi=
der where a client to vendor relationship has been established.  The client=
 to vendor relationship will typically have established contracts or agreem=
ents to define expectations and trust relationships.

2.  SPToClient.  A service provider (SP) initiated a RID request or
    report to a client.  A client may be an individual, enterprise, or othe=
r type of entity (government, commercial, education, etc.).  A service prov=
ider may be a network, telecommunications, cloud, infrastructure, or other =
type of service provider where a client to vendor relationship has been est=
ablished.  The client to vendor relationship will typically have establishe=
d contracts or agreements to define expectations and trust relationships.

3.  IntraConsortium.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions within the boundaries of a consortium with the
          agreed-upon use and abuse guidelines. A consortium is a well defi=
ned group with established members and trust relationships specific to shar=
ing within that group.  A consortium would typically define the types of da=
ta that can be shared in advance, expectations on protecting that data, as =
well as having established contractual agreements.  Examples of Consortiums=
 may include industry focused sharing communities (Financial, government, r=
esearch and education, etc.) or cross industry sharing communities (for ins=
tance, organizations within local proximity that form a sharing group).

4.  PeerToPeer.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions between two peers but may require further
          evaluation before continuance beyond that point with the
          agreed-upon use and abuse guidelines.  PeerToPeer communications =
may involve any two individuals or entities that decide to share informatio=
n directly with each other.

5.  BetweenConsortiums.  Incident information that should have no
          restrictions between consortiums that have established agreements=
 or contracts with use and abuse guidelines.  BetweenConsortiums is used wh=
en two Consortiums (as defined in IntraConsortium above) share data.  The t=
ypes of data that can be shared BetweenConsortiums should be identified in =
their agreements and contracts along with expectations on how that data sho=
uld be handled and protected.

_______

> What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisdiction? What about sec=
urity incidents where there is some dispute about what constitutes a "natio=
nal boundary"? How would one use this value?

Proposed additional text is in quotes.  This does not change the usage, but=
 better explains the capabilities and relationship to IODEF and extensions =
as well as agreements between entities.

     6.  AcrossNationalBoundaries.  This selection must be set if the
          message type will cross national boundaries.  "AcrossNationalBoun=
daries is used when data shared may have additional restrictions for handli=
ng and protection based on the type of data and where it resides.  The IODE=
F document included, as well as any extensions, with the RID message should=
 indicate the specific restrictions to be considered.  The national boundar=
y may be defined by existing regulations or other legal agreements specific=
 to a defined region.  The use of this AcrossNationalBoundaries is not lega=
lly binding unless contracts and agreements for entities who share data hav=
e deemed it as such through additional definitions that may include associa=
ted handling and protection requirements."  There could be
          instances of TraceRequest messages where that may not be known
          in advance, but should be known at the instance where
          boundaries are crossed during the investigation.  This must
          also be set if the security requirements of the request is
          based upon regulations of a specific nation that may not apply
          to all nations.  The stricter requirements should be upheld.
          This is different from the "BetweenConsortiums" setting since
          it may be possible to have multiple nations as members of the
          same consortium, and this option must be selected if the
          traffic is of a type that may have different restrictions in
          other nations.
_______________
Next issue was with "LawEnforcement"
>From Larry, " Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indicatio=
n, hint, of how to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local=
 government" across the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it =
a legal jurisdiction? What about security incidents where there is some dis=
pute about what constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this v=
alue? If you expect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple=
 sources, don't you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And i=
f you don't, why is it standards track?"

The working group discussed this very issue on the mailing list.  I think w=
hat is needed is some additional language in the draft to better explain ho=
w this is used.  This term was intentionally left ambiguous as the IODEF do=
cument included would have the specific contact information of the group th=
e sender interpreted as LawEnforcement.  This could be national or local po=
lice or even a government group like the FBI in the US.  Since this could d=
iffer around the world, the working group decided that the high level term =
that may affect how they protect the data and the extent to which it can be=
 shared was good for the RID level.  When you look at the IODEF document, t=
his will include the specific contact information of the recipient (much mo=
re granular than the type of Law Enforcement).


Current Text:
>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government, or other authorities assisting =
with an investigation.  If the law enforcement agency resides within a diff=
erent nation that the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumera=
tion MUST also be set .

Proposed Text:
>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government, or other authorities assisting =
with an investigation.  The usage of this value is interpreted by the sende=
r, and that interpretation may vary in regions of the world.  This value is=
 intentionally broad.  More detailed information on the receiving entity is=
 maintained in the Contact class of the IODEF document.  If the law enforce=
ment agency resides within a different nation that the sending entity, the =
"AcrossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also be set.
________

The types for TrafficRegion was also raised as a concern, but not as explic=
itly as the areas above.

In looking at these again, the only change I would suggest at this point is=
 the first sentence of Attack.

Current text:
1.  Attack.  This option should only be selected if the traffic is
          related to a network-based attack.

Proposed text:
1.  Attack.  This option should only be selected if the traffic is
          related to an information security incident or attack.

________

You also raised a question on extensibility.  The WG decided that we wanted=
 to restrict this to the ability to add enumerated values, either through o=
fficial means (standards document) or to sharing communities who may extend=
 to add their own values.  Throughout the schema, there is an ext-value inc=
luded, following the established extension mechanism for IODEF.  It points =
to the definition in RFC5070, section 5.1.  Does this address your concern =
or would you prefer to see the text included in this document.

I believe this addresses the outstanding questions.  Please let me know if =
you agree on the proposed text and how each question is addressed.

Thank you,
Kathleen



-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarty, Kathleen
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:44 PM
To: Larry Masinter; SM; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis.=
all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Hello Larry,

Thank you very much for the detailed review!  I have a couple of quick ques=
tions and will address your concerns with proposed text soon (WGLC ends on =
Monday, so I can update the document then to include your suggested changes=
 along with any others received).

Can you let me know if the section at the end of the introduction adequatel=
y addresses your request for the list of changes from RFC6045?  If not, wha=
t additional detail or formatting would be helpful to clear up this request=
?

I will go back through the terminology again to clarify terms better as req=
uested and to find out if the changes address your concerns (tomorrow or Mo=
nday via email to this list).

A little background:  In this space, groups share data using high level mar=
kers to indicate what groups you can share the data with and if it is sensi=
tive.  The markers in RID are more specific than what is used for sharing v=
ia email (etc.), but a mapping is easily created.  The "Traffic Light Proto=
col" just marks incidents as "red", "yellow", "green", and "white" which in=
tends to cover both of those areas.  Organizations decide how they want to =
share and mark it as such with policy agreements.  The policy part will hap=
pen more between groups before they share data.  Sharing in practice occurs=
 when parties know each other and have built a trust relationship or there =
is a client-vendor relationship.  Hopefully this will expand in the future,=
 but that's how it works now.  It is a delicate balance where parties may w=
ant the ability to interpret the terms and map to their policy and create s=
haring agreements.  Local for instance could be a region defined by a parti=
cular sharing group.  The ISACs int he US share across a particular industr=
y, but then there are other groups like the ACSC in the greater Boston area=
 that is cross industry and will limit participation to about 30 organizati=
ons for fear that if they get too large, people won't trust (because they d=
on't know the others int he group) and hence won't share.

Thanks again!
Kathleen

________________________________________
From: Larry Masinter [masinter@adobe.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:21 PM
To: SM; Moriarty, Kathleen; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-=
bis.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Request for review: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01

Document:  draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
Title: Real-time Inter-network Defense
Reviewer: Larry Masinter
Review Date: 12/3/2011

Summary:
This draft is not ready for publication as a Proposed Standard and should b=
e revised before publication.

Major issues:
The document defines a language for describing a security incident intended=
 for exchange between services or service providers, but the terminology us=
ed for describing incidents and the extensibility and refinement of that te=
rminology is not clear and doesn't seem to be managed.
But this is a preliminary review about the status & intent...

Minor issues:
The status of the document seems to be confusing or incorrect.  The introdu=
ction says "This document moves Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) [RFC6=
045]    to Historic status as it provides minor updates."  And the status l=
ists that it "updates" RFC 6045.

In fact, the document seems to be a revision of all of RFC 6045
 http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Drfc6045&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mile-rfc604=
5-bis-01
which moves from "Informational"  to Standards Track.
There doesn't seem to be a summary of "Changes from RFC 6045" which explain=
s what changed, based on actual practice..


Details:

There are several namespaces of enumerated values ("TrafficType", "PolicyRe=
gion", ...) which seem to depend on a common understanding of the meaning o=
f the terminology, but which do not define the terms sufficiently (in my op=
inion) for anyone to know how to use this.

To pick a couple of examples:

PolicyRegion starts out with "region", and there are mysterious labels. "On=
e. Enum."
There is likely a convention in the document for this, but I think unless i=
t is an explicit table it is better to be more specific.

The bulk of the document contains what seem like definitions of terms in a =
vocabulary, such as:

> ClientToSP.  An enterprise initiated the request to their service provide=
r.

But the terms "enterprise" and "service provider" are defined ... where? Is=
 my home network an enterprise? What is the scope or scale of an enterprise=
?  Could different service providers define what an "enterprise" is differe=
ntly? What is the utility of this value in an incident report?

>   LawEnforcement.  This option is used when incident information is excha=
nged with LawEnforcement, local government,
>  or other authorities assisting with an investigation.  If the law enforc=
ement agency resides within a different nation that
>  the sending entity, the "crossNationalBoundaries" enumeration MUST also =
be set .

Again, many undefined terms, and no particular way, indication, hint, of ho=
w to clarify them, when they apply, what constitutes a "local government" a=
cross the world, etc.   What is a "National Boundary"? Is it a legal jurisd=
iction? What about security incidents where there is some dispute about wha=
t constitutes a "national boundary"? How would one use this value? If you e=
xpect consistent processing of incident reports from multiple sources, don'=
t you need to insure common understanding of the terms? And if you don't, w=
hy is it standards track?

The extensibility of the protocol is unclear... how are these terms clarifi=
ed, how do they evolve, what happens when different organizations interpret=
 the terms differently? Is there a registry? Can the set of terms change?

I understand the desire to pass semantic information between multiple parti=
es about security incidents, but I think the fundamental problem is in the =
management of the evolution of a common understanding of the terminology an=
d namespace supplied.

Larry
--
http://larry.masinter.net



From paul.bryan@forgerock.com  Mon Dec  5 17:56:09 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] JSON Patch: Shortening operation names?
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It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation names
in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point that if you
transmit via HTTP and "Content-Encoding: gzip", the verbosity is nicely
compressed out. This argument has served me well (insofar as it tends to
silence most critics), but I continue to get challenged on this point.
I'm curious to know what position APPSAWG members may have. Should I use
"rm" or even "-" instead of the more verbose "remove"?

Paul

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It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation names in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point that if you transmit via HTTP and &quot;Content-Encoding: gzip&quot;, the verbosity is nicely compressed out. This argument has served me well (insofar as it tends to silence most critics), but I continue to get challenged on this point. I'm curious to know what position APPSAWG members may have. Should I use &quot;rm&quot; or even &quot;-&quot; instead of the more verbose &quot;remove&quot;?<BR>
<BR>
Paul
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From markus.lanthaler@gmx.net  Mon Dec  5 18:59:30 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] Partially fulfilled / draft-nottingham-http-new-status
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Hi,

 

First of all sorry for the cross-post, but I wasn't sure where to send it.

 

I've just stumbled across the "draft-nottingham-http-new-status" ID and was
wondering whether you considered to include a status code for partially
fulfilled requests. It is not unusual that a request can be considered as
successful even if it couldn't be fulfilled completely.

 

A purchase order, for example, could still be created even though not all
order items are available for order. The client can then revoke his order or
proceed with the checkout without having to place another order and risking
that other items get unavailable (think of ticketing where you often have
the possibility to reserve tickets for some minutes).

 

This would reduce the number of required round-trips and potential "lost
update" problems.

 

 

--

Markus Lanthaler

@markuslanthaler

 


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>First of all sorry for the cross-post, but I =
wasn&#8217;t
sure where to send it.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I've just stumbled across the
&quot;draft-nottingham-http-new-status&quot; ID and was wondering =
whether you
considered to include a status code for partially fulfilled requests. It =
is not
unusual that a request can be considered as successful even if it =
couldn't be
fulfilled completely.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>A purchase order, for example, could still be =
created
even though not all order items are available for order. The client can =
then
revoke his order or proceed with the checkout without having to place =
another
order and risking that other items get unavailable (think of ticketing =
where
you often have the possibility to reserve tickets for some =
minutes).<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>This would reduce the number of required =
round-trips and
potential &quot;lost update&quot; problems.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Markus Lanthaler<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>@markuslanthaler<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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I believe it was Ken Thompson, when asked what he would have changed 
about unix, who said he would have spelled "creat" with an "e" at the end.

     Tony Hansen
     tony@att.com

On 12/5/2011 8:55 PM, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation names 
> in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point that if 
> you transmit via HTTP and "Content-Encoding: gzip", the verbosity is 
> nicely compressed out. This argument has served me well (insofar as it 
> tends to silence most critics), but I continue to get challenged on 
> this point. I'm curious to know what position APPSAWG members may 
> have. Should I use "rm" or even "-" instead of the more verbose "remove"?

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    I believe it was Ken Thompson, when asked what he would have changed
    about unix, who said he would have spelled "creat" with an "e" at
    the end.<br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tony Hansen<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tony@att.com">tony@att.com</a><br>
    <br>
    On 12/5/2011 8:55 PM, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
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      It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation
      names in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point
      that if you transmit via HTTP and "Content-Encoding: gzip", the
      verbosity is nicely compressed out. This argument has served me
      well (insofar as it tends to silence most critics), but I continue
      to get challenged on this point. I'm curious to know what position
      APPSAWG members may have. Should I use "rm" or even "-" instead of
      the more verbose "remove"?<br>
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From markus.lanthaler@gmx.net  Mon Dec  5 21:46:33 2011
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From: "Markus Lanthaler" <markus.lanthaler@gmx.net>
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Mark,

I've considered 202 Accepted but it has a completely different meaning. 202
is defined as:

  "The request has been accepted for processing, but the processing has not
   been completed. The request might or might not eventually be acted
upon.."

I proposed to introduce a new status code for requests that have been fully
processed but could just be fulfilled partially. Thinking more about it I
came up with another example where this might be very useful.

Assume we have a Web service. Clients send requests and everything works
fine -> 200 OK. At a certain point in time the Web service adds new
optional(!) functionality which is not critical and clients start to use it.
A simple example could be that clients transmit some additional data. If the
server gets updated as well and understand all the data, again a 200 OK is
fine.

But if a server is not updated to the latest version it might understand
just parts of the request (the critical part) and simply ignore the other
parts. To tell the client that it successfully processed the request but
didn't understand parts of the request he would return a, e.g., 209
Partially Fulfilled.

I think such a behaviour would be very important in evolving systems. As far
as I know, there are currently only two ways to deal with it: either process
the request and return a 200 OK signalling everything was OK or ignoring the
request and returning a 400 Bad Request.


--
Markus Lanthaler
@markuslanthaler


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Tue Dec  6 00:27:43 2011
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On 2011-12-06 02:55, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation names
> in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point that if you
> transmit via HTTP and "Content-Encoding: gzip", the verbosity is nicely
> compressed out. This argument has served me well (insofar as it tends to
> silence most critics), but I continue to get challenged on this point.
> I'm curious to know what position APPSAWG members may have. Should I use
> "rm" or even "-" instead of the more verbose "remove"?

I can live with full names, but wouldn't object to ultra-short names 
such as "+", "-", "?" etc either.

Best regards, Julian

From GK@ninebynine.org  Tue Dec  6 03:55:36 2011
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I'd be inclined to stick with the readable names, unless there's a clear case 
that the extra bytes will have significant effect on performance.

[[
Donald Knuth made the following two statements on optimization:

"We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature 
optimization is the root of all evil"[2]

(He also attributed the quote to Tony Hoare several years later,[3] although 
this might have been an error as Hoare disclaims having coined the phrase.[4])

"In established engineering disciplines a 12 % improvement, easily obtained, is 
never considered marginal and I believe the same viewpoint should prevail in 
software engineering"[2]
]]
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization#When_to_optimize

I'd be surprised if, in practice, the shorter names would yield a >10% improvement.

#g
--

On 06/12/2011 01:55, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> It's been suggested on more than one occasion that the operation names
> in JSON Patch are too verbose. I've countered with the point that if you
> transmit via HTTP and "Content-Encoding: gzip", the verbosity is nicely
> compressed out. This argument has served me well (insofar as it tends to
> silence most critics), but I continue to get challenged on this point.
> I'm curious to know what position APPSAWG members may have. Should I use
> "rm" or even "-" instead of the more verbose "remove"?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] JSON Patch: Shortening operation names?
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On Tue Dec  6 10:28:07 2011, Graham Klyne wrote:
> I'd be inclined to stick with the readable names, unless there's a  
> clear case that the extra bytes will have significant effect on  
> performance.

Shrt nms tnd 2 rduc rdblty 4 0 effct.

Put another way, reducing the length of the names is merely making  
particular packets shorter. This is likely to have an effect only if  
using certain low-level network types (such as 3G mobile), and if the  
middle layers arethemselves sufficiently terse. I've been assuming  
(without, I hasten to add, reading the draft) that this is all going  
over HTTP, which will render any saving to be a wasted effort.

If we're running under some more optimal protocol, and over a  
link-layer which is genuinely low bandwidth (like SATCOM, HF, etc)  
then yes this will make a difference, but also you can use deflate,  
and in extreme cases you can preload the dictionary with typical  
patch operations, which is quite likely to reduce the names to  
fractional bytes very effectively.

Finally, on HTTP itself, running over TLS with compression enabled  
will yield much lower bandwidth then a C-E, for payloads of this  
type, so that's a much more effective argument.

(A small note - it *would* be worthwhile reducing the verbs if the  
distance between JSON patch operations - that is, the size of the  
entire HTTP request, uncompressed - would exceed 32k, and making it  
more terse would bring it radically under.)

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net
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From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Tue Dec  6 05:07:44 2011
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On 2011-12-06 13:18, Dave Cridland wrote:
> On Tue Dec 6 10:28:07 2011, Graham Klyne wrote:
>> I'd be inclined to stick with the readable names, unless there's a
>> clear case that the extra bytes will have significant effect on
>> performance.
>
> Shrt nms tnd 2 rduc rdblty 4 0 effct.
> ...

Actually, readability is the main reason why I would support such a 
change; in a diff format, using a single-character notation might 
*improve* the readability (compare to the traditional diff format).

Best regards, Julian

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Dec  6 12:19:06 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-greylisting-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Worki=
ng Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Best Current Practices for Email Greylisting
	Author(s)       : Murray S. Kucherawy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-appsawg-greylisting-00.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2011-12-06

   This memo describes best current practices for the art of email
   greylisting, the practice of providing temporarily degraded service
   to unknown email clients as an anti-abuse mechanism.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-greylisting-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-greylisting-00.txt


From mnot@mnot.net  Tue Dec  6 18:03:45 2011
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Why is it necessary to surface this information in the status code? =
E.g., will intermediaries or automated software that's not specific to =
the application at hand be able to use it?=20

Regards,


On 06/12/2011, at 4:46 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:

> Mark,
>=20
> I've considered 202 Accepted but it has a completely different =
meaning. 202
> is defined as:
>=20
>  "The request has been accepted for processing, but the processing has =
not
>   been completed. The request might or might not eventually be acted
> upon.."
>=20
> I proposed to introduce a new status code for requests that have been =
fully
> processed but could just be fulfilled partially. Thinking more about =
it I
> came up with another example where this might be very useful.
>=20
> Assume we have a Web service. Clients send requests and everything =
works
> fine -> 200 OK. At a certain point in time the Web service adds new
> optional(!) functionality which is not critical and clients start to =
use it.
> A simple example could be that clients transmit some additional data. =
If the
> server gets updated as well and understand all the data, again a 200 =
OK is
> fine.
>=20
> But if a server is not updated to the latest version it might =
understand
> just parts of the request (the critical part) and simply ignore the =
other
> parts. To tell the client that it successfully processed the request =
but
> didn't understand parts of the request he would return a, e.g., 209
> Partially Fulfilled.
>=20
> I think such a behaviour would be very important in evolving systems. =
As far
> as I know, there are currently only two ways to deal with it: either =
process
> the request and return a 200 OK signalling everything was OK or =
ignoring the
> request and returning a 400 Bad Request.
>=20
>=20
> --
> Markus Lanthaler
> @markuslanthaler
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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From: "Markus Lanthaler" <markus.lanthaler@gmx.net>
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On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Alex Rousskov wrote:

> A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension
> response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request
> were not "fully fulfilled".
>
> A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body
> pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering
> partially fulfilled requests successful.

What do you mean by extension response/request headers? Are you talking
about RFC 2774 [1] or just some proprietary (X-)headers?


[1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2774.txt


--
Markus Lanthaler
@markuslanthaler




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From: "Markus Lanthaler" <markus.lanthaler@gmx.net>
To: "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>, "'Roy T. Fielding'" <fielding@gbiv.com>
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Cc: ietf-http-wg@w3.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Partially fulfilled / draft-nottingham-http-new-status
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Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> For POST, this response is no different than 200 -- the client has no
> idea what semantics are provided by the service and thus cannot
> differentiate partial from complete success without the service
> telling the client what to do next (i.e., exactly what 200 does).

That's true. 


Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Why is it necessary to surface this information in the status code?

I just wanted to solely rely on the 200 code when the request was
*completely* fulfilled and have a way to signal the client to also look at
the body when it was *partially fulfilled*. But having a content length of 0
in the first case would basically do the same, right?


> E.g., will intermediaries or automated software that's not specific to
> the application at hand be able to use it?

Hmm... No. You are right, indeed it has no advantage of creating a specific
response code for that as it won't tell you more about the result than a
200.

Thank you very much for the feedback


Regards


--
Markus Lanthaler
@markuslanthaler


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Dear All,

A new version of draft-lu-imap-multi-account has been uploaded and is 
available at:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lu-imap-multi-account/

Any questions or comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

Yan LU

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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear All,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A new version of draft-lu-imap-multi-account
has been uploaded and is available at:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 color=#808080>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lu-imap-multi-account/</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Any questions or comments will be appreciated.</font>
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<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Yan LU</font><br><pre>
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From johnl@iecc.com  Tue Dec  6 20:08:40 2011
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>	Title           : Best Current Practices for Email Greylisting

Now that the skeleton is moved into the appsawg, is there a plan for
fleshing it out?  I'll be happy to contribute stuff from my CEAS paper.

R's,
John

From mnot@mnot.net  Wed Dec  7 01:08:00 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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Thanks for the feedback. Responses inline.

On 07/12/2011, at 2:18 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:

> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer=20
> for this draft (for background on appsdir, please=20
> see=20
> =
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate=20=

> ). =20
> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments=20=

> you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document=20
> shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>=20
> Document: draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
> Title: URI Template
>=20
> Reviewer: Jiankang Yao
> Review Date: December 7, 2011
>=20
> Summary:
>=20
> This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard. But =
before publication, the following=20
> issues should be considered or addressed.
>=20
> Major issues:
>=20
>=20
> 1) In section 1.5.  Notational Conventions
>=20
> There is a repetition of definition of ALPHA, DIGIT, HEXDIG,......
>=20
> There is a discussion in IETF: we should not give the repetition of =
definition of ABNF syntax if we can refer it to other documents. The =
reason is that repetition may bring the errors or misunderstanding.
>=20
> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from =
RFC5234" instead of repeating
> "ALPHA          =3D  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"

Is this a discussion that's already taken place?

> 2)   Normative reference [UNIV4] points to unicode version 4.0, but =
the current version of unicode is version 6.=20
>=20
> Suggestion or comments: Does this document apply to unicode version 4 =
only? or we can update the reference to unicode version 6?

Already v6 in SVN.

> 3)Normative reference [1] points to =
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/> which is maillist archive and =
can not be Normative.=20
> suggestion: delete it or move it to information reference.

Just changed in SVN.

> 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no =
precise definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition seems =
to appear on section 2.
> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the definition =
should appear first.

Could you make a concrete proposal here?

> 5)The abstract said "This specification defines the URI Template =
syntax and the process
>   for expanding a URI Template into a URI reference".
> but in section 2, it said that "we define the URI-Template syntax in =
terms of the ABNF for Level 4".
> Suggestion: if we just define the syntax for level 4, it should =
mention it in the Abstract and introduction.

That's just noting that implementations of the lower levels aren't =
required to parse the full syntax, not that the syntax isn't defined for =
other levels.

> Discussion issues:
> 1)No IANA actions are required by this document.=20
>=20
> comments or suggestions:I suggest something in the document to be =
added to IANA, for example,the operators in section 2 and 3 of this =
document.
> If we register these operators in IANA, it will help the future use of =
these operators/characters.
>=20
> for example:
>=20
>      +   Reserved character strings;
>=20
>      #   Fragment identifiers prefixed by "#";
>=20
>      .   Name labels or extensions prefixed by ".";
>=20
>      /   Path segments prefixed by "/";
>=20
>      ;   Path parameter name or name=3Dvalue pairs prefixed by ";";
>=20
>      ?   Query component beginning with "?" and consisting of
>          name=3Dvalue pairs separated by "&"; and,
>=20
>      &   Continuation of query-style &name=3Dvalue pairs within
>          a literal query component.
>=20
>   The operator characters equals ("=3D"), comma (","), exclamation =
("!"),
>   at-sign ("@"), and pipe ("|") are reserved for future extensions.

I think that's worth discussion, but my initial reaction is that a =
registry here will make interoperability much more difficult, and =
possibly harm adoption.=20

> Minor Issues:
>=20
> 1) "after UTF-8 encoding" in the first paragraph In section 1.2 Levels =
and Expression Types
> need a reference to UTF-8

In SVN.

> 2) In section 1.3.  Design Considerations
>  where " Mechanisms similar to URI Templates have been defined within =
several
>   specifications, including WSDL, WADL and OpenSearch."
>=20
>  What is WSDL WADL and OpenSearch?=20
>  Suggestion: need a reference or explaination for these acronyms or =
special words.

In SVN.

> 3) In the 4th paragraph of section 1.6,Normalization Form C needs a =
reference.

There's a reference to UTR15 directly above, in the same (admittedly =
lengthy) paragraph.

Regards,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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On 7 December 2011 04:18, Jiankang YAO <yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:

> Major issues:
> 1) In section 1.5.  Notational Conventions

> There is a repetition of definition of ALPHA, DIGIT, HEXDIG,......

> There is a discussion in IETF: we should not give the repetition of
> definition of ABNF syntax if we can refer it to other documents. The
> reason is that repetition may bring the errors or misunderstanding.

Well, we're not supposed to "redefine" terms unless we really want it,
but I fear that your suggestion misses another important point:

> for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from RFC5234"

If you write that only in prose Bill's syntax checker would flag the
terms as "undefined".  IMO the best way for imports is something in
the direction of

   ALPHA = <ASCII letters as specified in appendix X of RFC 5234>

Or similar, it's an editorial nit, and not really a major issue here,
after all this draft doesn't try to redefine any STD 68 terms ;-)

> 3)Normative reference [1] points to
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/> which is maillist archive
> and can not be Normative.

LOL, yes, that is an xml2rfc artefact, at some point it tries to dump
all pending URI references.  AFAIK the authors intend to add three or
more missing informative references, that should also take care of the
discussion list URI.  Using <eref ... /> might also help to get rid of
this non-normative oddity.

> Discussion issues:
> 1)No IANA actions are required by this document.

> comments or suggestions: I suggest something in the document to be
> added to IANA, for example,the operators in section 2 and 3 of this
> document.
> If we register these operators in IANA, it will help the future use
> of these operators/characters.

IMHO IANA registries should only be created when they are required,
and if they are (supposed to be) helpful.  That's not the case here,
all used operator characters are fully specified, and all remaining
potential operator characters are enumerated:  It is the job of any
later draft to create a registry if the "KISS" approach (= complete
enumeration in one memo) does not more work.

> 1) "after UTF-8 encoding" in the first paragraph In section 1.2
> Levels and Expression Types need a reference to UTF-8

For some reasons major parts of the terminology ended up in 1.5 and
1.6 _after_ some preliminary uses in 1.2 ... 1.4.  Normally the
order of 1.x sections in a draft is no issue, but here 1.2 is rather
long; hopefully the order can be rearranged, or improved by forward
references.

> 3) In the 4th paragraph of section 1.6, Normalization Form C needs
> a reference.

The given reference UAX #15 is good enough for my purposes, this is
no draft where a reference to RFC 5198 would be clearer.  YMMV, and
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/abbrev.expansion.txt>
lists "UTF-8" as a well-known term, but does not yet star "NFC".

-Frank

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Dec  7 08:00:52 2011
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On 12/6/11 10:08 PM, Alex Rousskov wrote:
> On 12/06/2011 07:29 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Alex Rousskov wrote:
>>
>>> A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension
>>> response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request
>>> were not "fully fulfilled".
>>>
>>> A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body
>>> pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering
>>> partially fulfilled requests successful.
>>
>> What do you mean by extension response/request headers? Are you talking
>> about RFC 2774 [1] or just some proprietary (X-)headers?
>>
>> [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2774.txt
> 
> Any message extension headers as defined by RFC 2616 Section 7.1.
> Whether they are [going to be] documented by some RFC, have an X-
> prefix, and/or remain application-specific is not important for this
> discussion, IMHO.

I agree that it's not important in this context.

FYI, please note that we're trying to get rid of the x- prefix...

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash

Speaking of which, I need to ping the APPSAWG chairs about starting a
last call. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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On 12/05/2011 10:46 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:

> It is not unusual that a request can be considered as successful even
> if it couldn't be fulfilled completely.

...

> I think such a behaviour would be very important in evolving systems. As far
> as I know, there are currently only two ways to deal with it: either process
> the request and return a 200 OK signalling everything was OK or ignoring the
> request and returning a 400 Bad Request.

A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension
response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request
were not "fully fulfilled".

A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body
pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering
partially fulfilled requests successful.


>From HTTP point of view, 200 OK seems like an appropriate response here
because the transaction went through and the HTTP server considered it a
success. The application-level details of that success can be left to
the extension headers or body.

A user-agent receiving just a "partially fulfilled" status code is
likely to want a lot more information anyway, resulting in the
additional requests you wanted to avoid. For example, a purchase
order-placing agent would want to know which items were not ordered
before deciding whether to revoke the partial order.


HTH,

Alex.

From samj@samj.net  Tue Dec  6 11:09:05 2011
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From: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 19:08:25 +0000
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--20cf303f6bae20795304b3712a9d
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On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Alex Rousskov <
rousskov@measurement-factory.com> wrote:

> On 12/05/2011 10:46 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:
>
> > It is not unusual that a request can be considered as successful even
> > if it couldn't be fulfilled completely.
>
> ...
>
> > I think such a behaviour would be very important in evolving systems. A=
s
> far
> > as I know, there are currently only two ways to deal with it: either
> process
> > the request and return a 200 OK signalling everything was OK or ignorin=
g
> the
> > request and returning a 400 Bad Request.
>
> A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension
> response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request
> were not "fully fulfilled".
>
> A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body
> pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering
> partially fulfilled requests successful.
>
>
> >From HTTP point of view, 200 OK seems like an appropriate response here
> because the transaction went through and the HTTP server considered it a
> success. The application-level details of that success can be left to
> the extension headers or body.
>
> A user-agent receiving just a "partially fulfilled" status code is
> likely to want a lot more information anyway, resulting in the
> additional requests you wanted to avoid. For example, a purchase
> order-placing agent would want to know which items were not ordered
> before deciding whether to revoke the partial order.
>

Agreed =97 if you're going to have to define a custom format anyway (as you
are in almost every case) then you're probably better off just using
existing codes.

"202 Accepted" applies to any state up to (but not including) completion,
so it's not really appropriate for synchronous requests, while "200 OK"
specifically allows for "an entity describing or containing the result of
the action".

That said, as I'm busy applying HTTP (as it was intended rather than with
envelope layers) to cloud standards I find myself regularly wanting to give
status updates =97 as x of y units, %, etc. =97 and it could be useful to h=
ave
a header that carried this information in a sensible/standard format. A
marked up Link: to a [text/uri-]list of components could be interesting too=
.

Sam

--20cf303f6bae20795304b3712a9d
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Alex Rousskov <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rousskov@measurement-factory.com">rou=
sskov@measurement-factory.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex;">

<div class=3D"im">On 12/05/2011 10:46 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; It is not unusual that a request can be considered as successful even<=
br>
&gt; if it couldn&#39;t be fulfilled completely.<br>
<br>
</div>...<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; I think such a behaviour would be very important in evolving systems. =
As far<br>
&gt; as I know, there are currently only two ways to deal with it: either p=
rocess<br>
&gt; the request and return a 200 OK signalling everything was OK or ignori=
ng the<br>
&gt; request and returning a 400 Bad Request.<br>
<br>
</div>A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension<br=
>
response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request<br=
>
were not &quot;fully fulfilled&quot;.<br>
<br>
A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body<br=
>
pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering<br>
partially fulfilled requests successful.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;From HTTP point of view, 200 OK seems like an appropriate response here=
<br>
because the transaction went through and the HTTP server considered it a<br=
>
success. The application-level details of that success can be left to<br>
the extension headers or body.<br>
<br>
A user-agent receiving just a &quot;partially fulfilled&quot; status code i=
s<br>
likely to want a lot more information anyway, resulting in the<br>
additional requests you wanted to avoid. For example, a purchase<br>
order-placing agent would want to know which items were not ordered<br>
before deciding whether to revoke the partial order.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Agreed =97 if you&#39;re going to have to define a custom for=
mat anyway (as you are in almost every case) then you&#39;re probably bette=
r off just using existing codes.</div>

<div><br></div><div>&quot;202 Accepted&quot; applies to any state up to (bu=
t not including) completion, so it&#39;s not really appropriate for synchro=
nous requests, while &quot;200 OK&quot; specifically allows for &quot;an en=
tity describing or containing the result of the action&quot;.</div>

<div><br></div><div>That said, as I&#39;m busy applying HTTP (as it was int=
ended rather than with envelope layers) to cloud standards I find myself re=
gularly wanting to give status updates =97 as x of y units, %, etc. =97 and=
 it could be useful to have a header that carried this information in a sen=
sible/standard format. A marked up Link: to a [text/uri-]list of components=
 could be interesting too.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Sam</div><div><br></div></div>

--20cf303f6bae20795304b3712a9d--

From rousskov@measurement-factory.com  Tue Dec  6 21:09:08 2011
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On 12/06/2011 07:29 PM, Markus Lanthaler wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Alex Rousskov wrote:
> 
>> A third way would be to return a 200 OK response with an extension
>> response header or custom body that indicates which parts of the request
>> were not "fully fulfilled".
>>
>> A forth way would be to include extension request headers or custom body
>> pieces indicating client preferences with regard to considering
>> partially fulfilled requests successful.
> 
> What do you mean by extension response/request headers? Are you talking
> about RFC 2774 [1] or just some proprietary (X-)headers?
> 
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2774.txt

Any message extension headers as defined by RFC 2616 Section 7.1.
Whether they are [going to be] documented by some RFC, have an X-
prefix, and/or remain application-specific is not important for this
discussion, IMHO.

My point is that there are existing HTTP mechanisms that can be used to
report to the client that parts of a successful HTTP transaction were
not entirely successful from the application point of view (and that
those rich mechanisms appear to be more suitable than a single new
status code).

Compared to using extension headers and/or custom response bodies,
adding a new standard response code is a more rigid/limited solution and
its support is going to be more expensive for HTTP agents that do not
need to know about any of this (e.g. proxies already know how to ignore
extension headers or body content, but new status codes often require
explicit care).

On the other hand, since I am not writing applications that deal with
partially fulfilled requests, I could be easily missing something that
prompts folks to suggest a new response status code instead.


Cheers,

Alex.

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From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <msk@cloudmark.com>
To: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:11:39 -0800
Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 1:08 AM
> To: Jiankang YAO
> Cc: draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org; IETF Apps Discuss
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-=
07
>=20
> > 1) In section 1.5.  Notational Conventions
> >
> > There is a repetition of definition of ALPHA, DIGIT, HEXDIG,......
> >
> > There is a discussion in IETF: we should not give the repetition of
> > definition of ABNF syntax if we can refer it to other documents. The
> > reason is that repetition may bring the errors or misunderstanding.
> >
> > Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from
> > RFC5234" instead of repeating
> > "ALPHA          =3D  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
>=20
> Is this a discussion that's already taken place?

I agree that re-stating definitions that are better replaced by references =
to them is the wiser move.

> > Discussion issues:
> > 1)No IANA actions are required by this document.
> >
> > comments or suggestions:I suggest something in the document to be
> > added to IANA, for example,the operators in section 2 and 3 of this
> > document.
> > If we register these operators in IANA, it will help the future use
> > of these operators/characters.

I don't think this is necessary.  The point of registries is to make someth=
ing extensible without having to modify its defining document, such as addi=
ng header fields to email or MIME types, etc.  In this case, declaring a ch=
aracter as an operator that's not already an operator can alter the semanti=
cs of existing templates based on the initial RFC.  So if the set of operat=
ors is to change, I suggest that a new RFC would be required, obsoleting pr=
evious ones.

-MSK

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To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of John Levine
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:08 PM
> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-greylisting-00=
.txt
>=20
> >	Title           : Best Current Practices for Email Greylisting
>=20
> Now that the skeleton is moved into the appsawg, is there a plan for
> fleshing it out?  I'll be happy to contribute stuff from my CEAS paper.

Yes, please.  Anyone with material to contribute to the greylisting documen=
t is invited to start sending it, either to this list or to me.  I'm ready =
to edit.

From GK@ninebynine.org  Wed Dec  7 13:18:36 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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On 07/12/2011 09:07, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> Discussion issues:
>> >  1)No IANA actions are required by this document.
>> >
>> >  comments or suggestions:I suggest something in the document to be added to IANA, for example,the operators in section 2 and 3 of this document.
>> >  If we register these operators in IANA, it will help the future use of these operators/characters.
>> >
>> >  for example:
>> >
>> >        +   Reserved character strings;
>> >
>> >        #   Fragment identifiers prefixed by "#";
>> >
>> >        .   Name labels or extensions prefixed by ".";
>> >
>> >        /   Path segments prefixed by "/";
>> >
>> >        ;   Path parameter name or name=value pairs prefixed by ";";
>> >
>> >        ?   Query component beginning with "?" and consisting of
>> >            name=value pairs separated by "&"; and,
>> >
>> >        &    Continuation of query-style&name=value pairs within
>> >            a literal query component.
>> >
>> >     The operator characters equals ("="), comma (","), exclamation ("!"),
>> >     at-sign ("@"), and pipe ("|") are reserved for future extensions.
> I think that's worth discussion, but my initial reaction is that a registry here will make interoperability much more difficult, and possibly harm adoption.
>

I agree that this does not seem an appropriate case for an IANA registry.

(a) The design is very closely coupled with URI syntax, which IMO makes it more 
usable.  A registry might encourage divergence.

(b) Addition of new "operators" could potentially have deep impact on template 
handling code, and such might be encouraged by allowing IANA registration of 
extensions.  I think this could harm interoperability if extensions are registered.

(c) The overhead of creating and managing a registry doesn't seem to be 
justified by any clear benefit.

#g
--

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On 07/12/2011, at 6:08 AM, Sam Johnston wrote:

> That said, as I'm busy applying HTTP (as it was intended rather than =
with envelope layers) to cloud standards I find myself regularly wanting =
to give status updates =97 as x of y units, %, etc. =97 and it could be =
useful to have a header that carried this information in a =
sensible/standard format. A marked up Link: to a [text/uri-]list of =
components could be interesting too.

Julian has been known to use a data: URI in a Link header=85=20

--
Mark Nottingham
http://www.mnot.net/





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From mnot@mnot.net  Wed Dec  7 22:45:51 2011
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On 08/12/2011, at 5:41 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
>>=20
>> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from =
RFC5234" instead of repeating
>> "ALPHA          =3D  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
>=20
> =3D=3D>Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
>=20
> yes. the rule has been followed by EAI WG.

Do you have a reference? I.e., is this an IESG ruling, or something that =
was decided in that WG? As has mentioned, taking the approach you =
outline will result in ABNF errors.


> 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no =
precise definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition seems =
to appear on section 2.
>> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the definition =
should appear first.
>=20
> =3D=3D>Could you make a concrete proposal here?
>=20
> what is "URI Template" should be defined in section 1.
> there is no precise or clear definition of "URI Template" in section =
1.

I was hoping for something more substantial. Let me take another look at =
it...

Regards,


--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec  8 00:35:56 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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On 2011-12-08 07:45, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> On 08/12/2011, at 5:41 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
>>>
>>> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from RFC5234" instead of repeating
>>> "ALPHA          =  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
>>
>> ==>Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
>>
>> yes. the rule has been followed by EAI WG.
>
> Do you have a reference? I.e., is this an IESG ruling, or something that was decided in that WG? As has mentioned, taking the approach you outline will result in ABNF errors.
> ...

It depends; BAP, Bill's ABNF Parser, when run from the command line, can 
include core rules from a file.

Best regards, Julian

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>
To: "Jiankang YAO" <yaojk@cnnic.cn>
Cc: <draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org>; "IETF Apps Discuss"
<apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
>
> > 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no precise
definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition seems to appear on
section 2.
> >> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the definition should
appear first.
> >
> > ==>Could you make a concrete proposal here?
> >
> > what is "URI Template" should be defined in section 1.
> > there is no precise or clear definition of "URI Template" in section 1.
>
> I was hoping for something more substantial. Let me take another look at it...

I agree that section 1 is a little weak but think the Abstract gets it (almost)
right.

"   A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters for describing a
   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion."

I would prefer
"  A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters which describes a
   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion."

and I would put that as section 1 first sentence, perhaps adding

"... A URI Template is not per se a URI but rather a potential URI in which
certain parts have been replaced by operators and variable names; the operators
have
been chosen to facilitate the construction of URIs, allowing the ready
generation
of such as name=value, or just value, in paths, queries and fragments, both of
single values or of lists of values."








>
> Regards,
>
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
>
>


From mnot@mnot.net  Thu Dec  8 04:36:34 2011
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I'll take that on board, thanks.

On 08/12/2011, at 10:23 PM, t.petch wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>
> To: "Jiankang YAO" <yaojk@cnnic.cn>
> Cc: <draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org>; "IETF Apps =
Discuss"
> <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of =
draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
>>=20
>>> 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no =
precise
> definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition seems to =
appear on
> section 2.
>>>> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the definition =
should
> appear first.
>>>=20
>>> =3D=3D>Could you make a concrete proposal here?
>>>=20
>>> what is "URI Template" should be defined in section 1.
>>> there is no precise or clear definition of "URI Template" in section =
1.
>>=20
>> I was hoping for something more substantial. Let me take another look =
at it...
>=20
> I agree that section 1 is a little weak but think the Abstract gets it =
(almost)
> right.
>=20
> "   A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters for describing =
a
>   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion."
>=20
> I would prefer
> "  A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters which describes =
a
>   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion."
>=20
> and I would put that as section 1 first sentence, perhaps adding
>=20
> "... A URI Template is not per se a URI but rather a potential URI in =
which
> certain parts have been replaced by operators and variable names; the =
operators
> have
> been chosen to facilitate the construction of URIs, allowing the ready
> generation
> of such as name=3Dvalue, or just value, in paths, queries and =
fragments, both of
> single values or of lists of values."
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> apps-discuss mailing list
>> apps-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
>>=20
>>=20
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Dec  8 09:46:33 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [link-relations] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt
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FYI, I've completed my AD evaluation and requested an IETF Last Call on
this specification.

On 12/7/11 8:31 PM, mike amundsen wrote:
> Peter:
> 
> Thanks for offering to sponsor the document.
> 
> What do you need from me to move forward?
> 
> mca
> http://amundsen.com/blog/
> http://twitter.com@mamund
> http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 21:51, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im
> <mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im>> wrote:
> 
>     Mike, I'm sponsoring draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation for a similar
>     purpose, so I'd be happy to sponsor your document as well.
> 
>     On 10/8/11 11:51 AM, mike amundsen wrote:
>     > Added Status indicator (Informational).
>     >
>     > Looking for feedback before I present as an Independent Submission to
>     > rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org <mailto:rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>
>     >
>     > mca
>     > http://amundsen.com/blog/
>     > http://twitter.com@mamund
>     > http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>     > From:  <internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
>     > Date: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 13:23
>     > Subject: New Version Notification for
>     > draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt
>     > To: mca@amundsen.com <mailto:mca@amundsen.com>
>     > Cc: mca@amundsen.com <mailto:mca@amundsen.com>
>     >
>     >
>     > A new version of I-D,
>     > draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt has been
>     > successfully submitted by Mike Amundsen and posted to the IETF
>     > repository.
>     >
>     > Filename:        draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations
>     > Revision:        03
>     > Title:           The Item and Collection Link Relations
>     > Creation date:   2011-10-08
>     > WG ID:           Individual Submission
>     > Number of pages: 5
>     >
>     > Abstract:
>     >   RFC 5988 [RFC5988] standardized a means of indicating the
>     >   relationships between resources on the Web. This specification
>     >   defines a pair of reciprocal link relation types that may be used to
>     >   express the relationship between a collection and its members.
>     >
>     > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)
>     >
>     >   Distribution of this document is unlimited.  Comments should be sent
>     >   to the IETF Apps-Discuss mailing list (see
>     >   &lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss&gt;
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss&gt;>).
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > The IETF Secretariat
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > link-relations mailing list
>     > link-relations@ietf.org <mailto:link-relations@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-relations

From mca@amundsen.com  Thu Dec  8 09:53:05 2011
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To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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--bcaec520efdb1260ce04b39857f5
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Peter:

thanks.

mca
http://amundsen.com/blog/
http://twitter.com@mamund
http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me




On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:46, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:

> FYI, I've completed my AD evaluation and requested an IETF Last Call on
> this specification.
>
> On 12/7/11 8:31 PM, mike amundsen wrote:
> > Peter:
> >
> > Thanks for offering to sponsor the document.
> >
> > What do you need from me to move forward?
> >
> > mca
> > http://amundsen.com/blog/
> > http://twitter.com@mamund
> > http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 21:51, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im
> > <mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im>> wrote:
> >
> >     Mike, I'm sponsoring draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation for a similar
> >     purpose, so I'd be happy to sponsor your document as well.
> >
> >     On 10/8/11 11:51 AM, mike amundsen wrote:
> >     > Added Status indicator (Informational).
> >     >
> >     > Looking for feedback before I present as an Independent Submission
> to
> >     > rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org <mailto:rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org>
> >     >
> >     > mca
> >     > http://amundsen.com/blog/
> >     > http://twitter.com@mamund
> >     > http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >     > From:  <internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org
> >>
> >     > Date: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 13:23
> >     > Subject: New Version Notification for
> >     > draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt
> >     > To: mca@amundsen.com <mailto:mca@amundsen.com>
> >     > Cc: mca@amundsen.com <mailto:mca@amundsen.com>
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > A new version of I-D,
> >     > draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt has been
> >     > successfully submitted by Mike Amundsen and posted to the IETF
> >     > repository.
> >     >
> >     > Filename:        draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations
> >     > Revision:        03
> >     > Title:           The Item and Collection Link Relations
> >     > Creation date:   2011-10-08
> >     > WG ID:           Individual Submission
> >     > Number of pages: 5
> >     >
> >     > Abstract:
> >     >   RFC 5988 [RFC5988] standardized a means of indicating the
> >     >   relationships between resources on the Web. This specification
> >     >   defines a pair of reciprocal link relation types that may be
> used to
> >     >   express the relationship between a collection and its members.
> >     >
> >     > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)
> >     >
> >     >   Distribution of this document is unlimited.  Comments should be
> sent
> >     >   to the IETF Apps-Discuss mailing list (see
> >     >   &lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss&gt;
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss&gt;>).
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > The IETF Secretariat
> >     > _______________________________________________
> >     > link-relations mailing list
> >     > link-relations@ietf.org <mailto:link-relations@ietf.org>
> >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-relations
>

--bcaec520efdb1260ce04b39857f5
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Peter:<div><br></div><div>thanks.</div><div><br><div>mca<br><a href=3D"http=
://amundsen.com/blog/" target=3D"_blank">http://amundsen.com/blog/</a><br><=
a href=3D"http://twitter.com" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com</a>@mamu=
nd<br>
<a href=3D"http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me" target=3D"_blank">http://mamund.c=
om/foaf.rdf#me</a><br><br><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:46, Peter Sain=
t-Andre <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stpeter@stpeter.im">stpeter=
@stpeter.im</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
FYI, I&#39;ve completed my AD evaluation and requested an IETF Last Call on=
<br>
this specification.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
On 12/7/11 8:31 PM, mike amundsen wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; Peter:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for offering to sponsor the document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What do you need from me to move forward?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; mca<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://amundsen.com/blog/" target=3D"_blank">http://amundse=
n.com/blog/</a><br>
&gt; http://twitter.com@mamund<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me" target=3D"_blank">http://mam=
und.com/foaf.rdf#me</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 21:51, Peter Saint-Andre &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
stpeter@stpeter.im">stpeter@stpeter.im</a><br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:stpeter@stpeter.i=
m">stpeter@stpeter.im</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 Mike, I&#39;m sponsoring draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation fo=
r a similar<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 purpose, so I&#39;d be happy to sponsor your document as well.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 On 10/8/11 11:51 AM, mike amundsen wrote:<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Added Status indicator (Informational).<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Looking for feedback before I present as an Independent S=
ubmission to<br>
</div>&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org">rfc-ise@r=
fc-editor.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org">rfc-=
ise@rfc-editor.org</a>&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; mca<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; <a href=3D"http://amundsen.com/blog/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://amundsen.com/blog/</a><br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; http://twitter.com@mamund<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; <a href=3D"http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me</a><br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; From: =A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:in=
ternet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Date: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 13:23<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Subject: New Version Notification for<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt<=
br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:mca@am=
undsen.com">mca@amundsen.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mca@amundsen.=
com">mca@amundsen.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mca@amundsen.com">mca@amundsen.com<=
/a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mca@amundsen.com">mca@amundsen.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; A new version of I-D,<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; draft-amundsen-item-and-collection-link-relations-03.txt =
has been<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; successfully submitted by Mike Amundsen and posted to the=
 IETF<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; repository.<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Filename: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-amundsen-item-and-collecti=
on-link-relations<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Revision: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A003<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Title: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The Item and Collection Link R=
elations<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Creation date: =A0 2011-10-08<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; WG ID: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Individual Submission<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Number of pages: 5<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 RFC 5988 [RFC5988] standardized a means of indicating=
 the<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 relationships between resources on the Web. This spec=
ification<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 defines a pair of reciprocal link relation types that=
 may be used to<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 express the relationship between a collection and its=
 members.<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 Distribution of this document is unlimited. =A0Commen=
ts should be sent<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 to the IETF Apps-Discuss mailing list (see<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; =A0 &amp;lt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/apps-discuss&amp;gt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/apps-discuss&amp;gt</a>;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-disc=
uss&amp;gt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-di=
scuss&amp;gt</a>;&gt;).<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; The IETF Secretariat<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; link-relations mailing list<br>
</div></div>&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:link-relations@ietf.org">li=
nk-relations@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:link-relations@ietf.=
org">link-relations@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-rel=
ations" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-relati=
ons</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--bcaec520efdb1260ce04b39857f5--

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From: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
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To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:45 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> On 08/12/2011, at 5:41 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from =
RFC5234" instead of repeating
>>> "ALPHA          =3D  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
>>=20
>> =3D=3D>Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
>>=20
>> yes. the rule has been followed by EAI WG.
>=20
> Do you have a reference? I.e., is this an IESG ruling, or something =
that was decided in that WG? As has mentioned, taking the approach you =
outline will result in ABNF errors.

FWIW, I am opposed to making this change.  IMO, it is trivial for
any one of the reviewers prior to publication to verify that the
rules were copy and pasted correctly.  That's why they are all in
one section.  After that, the specification will be read by thousands
of people and used as a reference in hundreds of implementations, and
occasionally even automatically checked with abnf parsers.  The cost
of splitting the normative information across multiple specs is not
worth the theoretical notion that someone might copy them incorrectly.

These are not cases of independently developed protocol elements
that might be updated over time.  They are simply character sets.
We don't want them to be updated over time.  And they are essential
to understanding exactly what characters are allowed in each of
the rules in the main spec.

>> 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no =
precise definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition seems =
to appear on section 2.
>>> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the definition =
should appear first.
>>=20
>> =3D=3D>Could you make a concrete proposal here?
>>=20
>> what is "URI Template" should be defined in section 1.
>> there is no precise or clear definition of "URI Template" in section =
1.
>=20
> I was hoping for something more substantial. Let me take another look =
at it...

It is defined in the abstract. *shrug*

....Roy


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Dec  9 07:08:40 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Worki=
ng Group of the IETF.

	Title           : The "about" URI Scheme
	Author(s)       : Lachlan Hunt
                          Mykyta Yevstifeyev
	Filename        : draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme-01.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2011-12-09

   This document specifies the "about" URI scheme, that is widely used
   by Web browsers and some other applications to designate access to
   their internal resources, such as settings, application information,
   hidden built-in functionality, and so on.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme-01.=
txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-about-uri-scheme-01.t=
xt


From Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it  Fri Dec  9 08:29:09 2011
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From: Claudio Allocchio <Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it>
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Subject: [apps-discuss] Apps Dir review for: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11
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Hello all,

I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for 
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments you 
may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD 
before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11
Title: DKIM Authorized Third-Party Signers
Reviewer: Claudio Allocchio
Review Date: 2011-12-09
IETF Last Call Date: ends 2011-12-28
IESG Telechat Date: 2012-01-05

Summary:

This draft is almost ready for publication as Experimental RFC, but needs 
a further small elaboration on the only major issue I list below before it 
can be released.

-------

Major Issues:

The only major issue which I really see in the specification is the impact 
not only on DNS because of the increased number of queries, but on the 
efficiency of the e-mail glogal system in general.

It is true that in 9.3 this topic is correctly described, and a possible 
alternate query mechanism depicted. However the real issue which I see is 
not a load on DNS, but a greatly increased "timout risk" on MTAs. One of 
the "experiment" scope should also be to verify the impact that adding 
this new feature has on the whole messaging system in terms of MTAs 
efficiency and effects of timeouts. We already know well that, one of the 
first very evident effects which happens when DNS "is slow" is a serious 
disruption on MTAs performances. Even if DNS is performing correctly, 
adding more queries might trigger more easily these performance 
disruptions in MTAs.

I this suggest an explicit "guidance" on how to handle the experiment, and 
monitor also this issue, and evaluate its impact. Probably section 9.3 and 
the introduction are the appropriate spots to do this.

This is even more important if the adoption of this specification grows 
significantly because it proves useful.

-------

  Minor Issues:


Section 3. Discussion

The title of the paragraph seems not so clear for the reader. It could be 
better to name it either "Scope of this specification" or "Roles and Scope 
of this specification".

Also some sentences probably need a better phrasing:

"Participation in this protocol is divided into three parties:"

I would suggest:

"The actors involved into the implementation of this (experimental) 
protocol are:"

and below

"An Author participates in this protocol if it..." -->
   "An Author implements this protocol if it..."

"A Verifier participates in this protocol if..." -->
   "A Verifier implements this protocol if it..."

-------

Section 4.1 Extension to DKIM

the sentence:

    "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" are imported from [DKIM].

I guess it means:

    for the definition of "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" see [DKIM]
    (section x.y).

There was long discussion on other WGs about correct handling of ABNF 
cross refereces between RFCs, thus the above change is more clear and 
conformant to that discussion, too.

-------

Section 5. Interpretation

I would add an explicit sentence stating what to do in case the Verifier 
fails in the verification. Just a reference to DKIM procedure for this 
cases, in order not invent further potentially different actions.

-------

Section 9.1 and Section 4.2

I suggest to add explicitly the explanation from section 9.1:

"the hash and encode steps are done merely to convert any third-party 
domain name to a fixed width in the construction of the DNS query."

also to section 4.2, bullet point 5, where the convertion of the domain 
name is specified.

-------


Nits:

None.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claudio Allocchio             G   A   R   R          Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it
                         Senior Technical Officer
tel: +39 040 3758523      Italian Academic and       G=Claudio; S=Allocchio;
fax: +39 040 3758565        Research Network         P=garr; A=garr; C=it;

            PGP Key: http://www.cert.garr.it/PGP/keys.php3#ca

From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Fri Dec  9 09:19:20 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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Dear WG participant,
I would like to initiate WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt. Due to 
holiday season the WGLC is going to be a long one and will end on 
January 6th. Please send any comments directly to the apps-discuss 
mailing list, or directly to editors of the draft and myself.
Please send an email even if you reviewed the document and found no 
issues with it.

Thank you,
Alexey, as an APPSAWG co-chair.



From msk@cloudmark.com  Fri Dec  9 10:41:59 2011
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From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <msk@cloudmark.com>
To: Claudio Allocchio <Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, "draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps.all@tools.ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 10:41:57 -0800
Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] Apps Dir review for: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of Claudio Allocchio
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:29 AM
> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps.all@tools.ietf.org
> Cc: iesg@ietf.org
> Subject: [apps-discuss] Apps Dir review for: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11

Hi Claudio, thanks for your review.

> Major Issues:
>=20
> The only major issue which I really see in the specification is the
> impact not only on DNS because of the increased number of queries, but
> on the efficiency of the e-mail glogal system in general.
>=20
> It is true that in 9.3 this topic is correctly described, and a
> possible alternate query mechanism depicted. However the real issue
> which I see is not a load on DNS, but a greatly increased "timout risk"
> on MTAs. One of the "experiment" scope should also be to verify the
> impact that adding this new feature has on the whole messaging system
> in terms of MTAs efficiency and effects of timeouts. We already know
> well that, one of the first very evident effects which happens when DNS
> "is slow" is a serious disruption on MTAs performances. Even if DNS is
> performing correctly, adding more queries might trigger more easily
> these performance disruptions in MTAs.
>=20
> I this suggest an explicit "guidance" on how to handle the experiment,
> and monitor also this issue, and evaluate its impact. Probably section
> 9.3 and the introduction are the appropriate spots to do this.
>=20
> This is even more important if the adoption of this specification grows
> significantly because it proves useful.

Thanks for that suggestion.  Since as you say Section 9.3 already gives thi=
s a reasonable treatment, I've instead extended Section 7 to draw specific =
attention to what 9.3 says, and asked that participants in the experiment p=
ay close attention to how the added DNS work might cause MTA latency.  Is t=
hat sufficient?

>   Minor Issues:
>=20
> Section 3. Discussion
>=20
> The title of the paragraph seems not so clear for the reader. It could
> be better to name it either "Scope of this specification" or "Roles and
> Scope of this specification".

I've changed it to simply "Roles and Scope".

> Also some sentences probably need a better phrasing:
>=20
> "Participation in this protocol is divided into three parties:"
>=20
> I would suggest:
>=20
> "The actors involved into the implementation of this (experimental)
> protocol are:"

Someone else already suggested changing it to "The context of this protocol=
 involves the following roles", so I'll just leave that as-is.

> and below
>=20
> "An Author participates in this protocol if it..." -->
>    "An Author implements this protocol if it..."
>=20
> "A Verifier participates in this protocol if..." -->
>    "A Verifier implements this protocol if it..."

Done and done.

> -------
>=20
> Section 4.1 Extension to DKIM
>=20
> the sentence:
>=20
>     "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" are imported from [DKIM].
>=20
> I guess it means:
>=20
>     for the definition of "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" see [DKIM]
>     (section x.y).
>=20
> There was long discussion on other WGs about correct handling of ABNF
> cross refereces between RFCs, thus the above change is more clear and
> conformant to that discussion, too.

I've used the "are imported from" numerous times before without any resista=
nce or concern.  But anyway, I've changed it to "are defined in".

> Section 5. Interpretation
>=20
> I would add an explicit sentence stating what to do in case the
> Verifier fails in the verification. Just a reference to DKIM procedure
> for this cases, in order not invent further potentially different
> actions.

I've changed the first sentence so that it starts with: "For each DKIM sign=
ature that verifies, ..."  Is that sufficient?

> -------
>=20
> Section 9.1 and Section 4.2
>=20
> I suggest to add explicitly the explanation from section 9.1:
>=20
> "the hash and encode steps are done merely to convert any third-party
> domain name to a fixed width in the construction of the DNS query."
>=20
> also to section 4.2, bullet point 5, where the convertion of the domain
> name is specified.

I'd prefer to add a forward reference from 4.2 to 9.1 rather than copying t=
ext.  That's done now in the working copy.

Thanks again,
-MSK

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At 09:19 09-12-2011, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>I would like to initiate WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt. 
>Due to holiday season the WGLC is going to be a long one and will 
>end on January 6th. Please send any comments

Please consider the comments below as nits.

In Section 1:

   "Therefore this document deprecates the "X-" convention for most
    application protocols and makes specific recommendations about
    how to proceed in a world without the distinction between
    standard and non-standard parameters."

In Section 2, there is a "MUST NOT" for implementers of application 
protocols.  The "most" (see quoted text) is not taken into 
consideration.  The authors could get away with a "SHOULD" instead of a "MUST".

Regards,
-sm 


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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On 12/9/11 11:54 AM, SM wrote:
> At 09:19 09-12-2011, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>> I would like to initiate WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt. Due
>> to holiday season the WGLC is going to be a long one and will end on
>> January 6th. Please send any comments
> 
> Please consider the comments below as nits.
> 
> In Section 1:
> 
>   "Therefore this document deprecates the "X-" convention for most
>    application protocols and makes specific recommendations about
>    how to proceed in a world without the distinction between
>    standard and non-standard parameters."
> 
> In Section 2, there is a "MUST NOT" for implementers of application
> protocols.  The "most" (see quoted text) is not taken into
> consideration.  The authors could get away with a "SHOULD" instead of a
> "MUST".

Good point. Thanks for the review!

Peter

-- 
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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<hat type='individual'/>

On 12/7/11 11:45 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
> On 08/12/2011, at 5:41 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
>>> 
>>> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported
>>> from RFC5234" instead of repeating "ALPHA          =  %x41-5A /
>>> %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
>> 
>> ==>Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
>> 
>> yes. the rule has been followed by EAI WG.
> 
> Do you have a reference? I.e., is this an IESG ruling, or something
> that was decided in that WG? As has mentioned, taking the approach
> you outline will result in ABNF errors.

As far as I know, there is no "rule" here.

>> 4)There is a lot of "A URI Template" in section 1, but there is no
>> precise definition of "URI Template" in section 1. The definition
>> seems to appear on section 2.
>>> Comments: If the readers can understand it clearly, the
>>> definition should appear first.
>> 
>> ==>Could you make a concrete proposal here?
>> 
>> what is "URI Template" should be defined in section 1. there is no
>> precise or clear definition of "URI Template" in section 1.
> 
> I was hoping for something more substantial. Let me take another look
> at it...

Why not just copy the first sentence of the Abstract?

   A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters for describing a
   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion.

I suggest adding it to the start of this paragraph:

   URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of resource
   identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified and
   described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery of
   available services, configuring resource mappings, defining computed
   links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
   interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
   be described by the following URI templates:

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Dir review for: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11
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>> Major Issues:
>>
>> The only major issue which I really see in the specification is the
>> impact not only on DNS because of the increased number of queries, but
>> on the efficiency of the e-mail glogal system in general.
>>
>> It is true that in 9.3 this topic is correctly described, and a
>> possible alternate query mechanism depicted. However the real issue
>> which I see is not a load on DNS, but a greatly increased "timout risk"
>> on MTAs. One of the "experiment" scope should also be to verify the
>> impact that adding this new feature has on the whole messaging system
>> in terms of MTAs efficiency and effects of timeouts. We already know
>> well that, one of the first very evident effects which happens when DNS
>> "is slow" is a serious disruption on MTAs performances. Even if DNS is
>> performing correctly, adding more queries might trigger more easily
>> these performance disruptions in MTAs.
>>
>> I this suggest an explicit "guidance" on how to handle the experiment,
>> and monitor also this issue, and evaluate its impact. Probably section
>> 9.3 and the introduction are the appropriate spots to do this.
>>
>> This is even more important if the adoption of this specification grows
>> significantly because it proves useful.
>
> Thanks for that suggestion.  Since as you say Section 9.3 already gives 
> this a reasonable treatment, I've instead extended Section 7 to draw 
> specific attention to what 9.3 says, and asked that participants in the 
> experiment pay close attention to how the added DNS work might cause MTA 
> latency.  Is that sufficient?

I have not read it yet, but I think so!

>>   Minor Issues:
>>
>> Section 3. Discussion
>>
>> The title of the paragraph seems not so clear for the reader. It could
>> be better to name it either "Scope of this specification" or "Roles and
>> Scope of this specification".
>
> I've changed it to simply "Roles and Scope".

ok.

>
>> Also some sentences probably need a better phrasing:
>>
>> "Participation in this protocol is divided into three parties:"
>>
>> I would suggest:
>>
>> "The actors involved into the implementation of this (experimental)
>> protocol are:"
>
> Someone else already suggested changing it to "The context of this 
> protocol involves the following roles", so I'll just leave that as-is.

ok.

>
>> and below
>>
>> "An Author participates in this protocol if it..." -->
>>    "An Author implements this protocol if it..."
>>
>> "A Verifier participates in this protocol if..." -->
>>    "A Verifier implements this protocol if it..."
>
> Done and done.

ok.

>> -------
>>
>> Section 4.1 Extension to DKIM
>>
>> the sentence:
>>
>>     "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" are imported from [DKIM].
>>
>> I guess it means:
>>
>>     for the definition of "domain-name" and "key-h-tag-alg" see [DKIM]
>>     (section x.y).
>>
>> There was long discussion on other WGs about correct handling of ABNF
>> cross refereces between RFCs, thus the above change is more clear and
>> conformant to that discussion, too.
>
> I've used the "are imported from" numerous times before without any 
resistance or concern.  But anyway, I've changed it to "are defined in".

ok.

>
>> Section 5. Interpretation
>>
>> I would add an explicit sentence stating what to do in case the
>> Verifier fails in the verification. Just a reference to DKIM procedure
>> for this cases, in order not invent further potentially different
>> actions.
>
> I've changed the first sentence so that it starts with: "For each DKIM 
signature that verifies, ..."  Is that sufficient?

yes.

>
>> -------
>>
>> Section 9.1 and Section 4.2
>>
>> I suggest to add explicitly the explanation from section 9.1:
>>
>> "the hash and encode steps are done merely to convert any third-party
>> domain name to a fixed width in the construction of the DNS query."
>>
>> also to section 4.2, bullet point 5, where the convertion of the domain
>> name is specified.
>
> I'd prefer to add a forward reference from 4.2 to 9.1 rather than 
> copying text.  That's done now in the working copy.


that's ok. too.

all the best!

;-)


>
> Thanks again,
> -MSK
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                         Senior Technical Officer
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claudio Allocchio [mailto:Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it]
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 2:08 PM
> To: Murray S. Kucherawy
> Cc: Claudio Allocchio; apps-discuss@ietf.org; draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps.a=
ll@tools.ietf.org; iesg@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Apps Dir review for: draft-kucherawy-dkim-atp=
s-11
>=20
> > Thanks for that suggestion.  Since as you say Section 9.3 already
> > gives this a reasonable treatment, I've instead extended Section 7 to
> > draw specific attention to what 9.3 says, and asked that participants
> > in the experiment pay close attention to how the added DNS work might
> > cause MTA latency.  Is that sufficient?
>=20
> I have not read it yet, but I think so!

Trust me, it looks fantastic.  :-)

-MSK

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Subject: [apps-discuss] APPS Area review of draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-uri-04
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for 
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see  
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments 
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd 
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-uri-04
Title: Location Configuration Extensions for Policy Management
Reviewer: Tobias Gondrom
Review Date: 10.12.11

Summary:
"This draft is almost ready for publication as an RFC but has a few 
issues around access control and data leakage (allowed use of http) that 
should be fixed before publication."


Major Issues:

1. Section 3.1
"Knowledge of the policy URI can be considered adequate evidence of 
authorization"
As far as I understand that would imply that there is no further access 
control for GET/PUT/DELETE intended?
I am not sure I would agree with that. Using that paradigm possible 
attackers could indeed try to ping for a variety of URI addresses and 
will either receive a "does not exist" or the policy resource (in which 
case they would automatically be granted with the right to delete or 
update the policy)?
Furthermore if more than one device/service shares the same policy URI, 
they will have both full read/write access to the policy?
Therefore I would strongly suggest to add notes that update and delete 
request MUST/SHOULD be authorised/authenticated by other means beyond 
pure knowledge or URI.

2. The creation criteria in section 3.2 are nice but appear to be 
insufficient/too weak:
"A policy URI is effectively a shared secret between Location Server
    and its clients.  Knowledge of a policy URI is all that is required
    to perform any operations allowed on the policy.  Thus, a policy URI
    should be constructed so that it is hard to predict and
    confidentiality-protected when transmitted (see Section 7).  To avoid
    re-using these shared secrets, the Location Server MUST generate a
    new policy URI whenever it generates a new location URI set."

Please consider that a server defending against brute force scanning 
with the current model will only reply with 404 (not found) to 
non-existant resources (which in general is no indication for a server 
that an attack is under way, e.g. there could equally be a search engine 
or site mapping scanner be at work). While when using a form of 
authentication the server can distinguish failed access attempts as it 
will result in 401/403 errors access denied / forbidden - errors that 
can more easily used to identify failed attempts to gain access to 
policy URIs.

3. Also consider that with "A policy URI is effectively a shared secret 
between Location Server and its clients." and the above section on 
access rights all involved parties have equal access rights for 
GET/PUT/DELETE, although they may not always be intended to be symmetric?

4. Section 4.1.
" A policy URI MUST
    use the "http:" or "https:" scheme, and the Location Server MUST
    support the specified operations on the URI."
Considering the confidential nature of the URI and the shared secret 
aspects, you should amend this by at least strongly suggesting that the 
"https scheme SHOULD be used whenever possible".

the same in section 4.2.


Minor Issues:
some of the abstract and introduction are particularly hard to read 
(even for RFCs). It might be useful to let a native speaker read over 
them and make them smoother / easier to understand.


Best regards, Tobias



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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Arial">I have been selected as the Applications Area
      Directorate reviewer for this draft (for background on appsdir,
      please see&nbsp;
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate</a>).<br>
      <br>
      Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call
      comments you may receive. Please wait for direction from your
      document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.<br>
      <br>
      Document: draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-uri-04<br>
      Title: Location Configuration Extensions for Policy Management<br>
      Reviewer: Tobias Gondrom<br>
      Review Date: 10.12.11<br>
      <br>
      Summary: <br>
    </font><font face="Arial">"This draft is almost ready for
      publication as an RFC but has a few issues around access control
      and data leakage (allowed use of http) that should be fixed before
      publication</font>."<font face="Arial"><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Major Issues: <br>
      <br>
      1. Section 3.1<br>
      "Knowledge of the policy URI can be considered adequate evidence
      of authorization"<br>
      As far as I understand that would imply that there is no further
      access control for GET/PUT/DELETE intended? <br>
      I am not sure I would agree with that. Using that paradigm
      possible attackers could indeed try to ping for a variety of URI
      addresses and will either receive a "does not exist" or the policy
      resource (in which case they would automatically be granted with
      the right to delete or update the policy)?<br>
      Furthermore if more than one device/service shares the same policy
      URI, they will have both full read/write access to the policy? <br>
      Therefore I would strongly suggest to add notes that update and
      delete request MUST/SHOULD be authorised/authenticated by other
      means beyond pure knowledge or URI. <br>
      <br>
      2. The creation criteria in section 3.2 are nice but appear to be
      insufficient/too weak:<br>
      "A policy URI is effectively a shared secret between Location
      Server<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; and its clients.&nbsp; Knowledge of a policy URI is all that is
      required<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; to perform any operations allowed on the policy.&nbsp; Thus, a
      policy URI<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; should be constructed so that it is hard to predict and<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; confidentiality-protected when transmitted (see Section 7).&nbsp; To
      avoid<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; re-using these shared secrets, the Location Server MUST
      generate a<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; new policy URI whenever it generates a new location URI set."<br>
      <br>
      Please consider that a server defending against brute force
      scanning with the current model will only reply with 404 (not
      found) to non-existant resources (which in general is no
      indication for a server that an attack is under way, e.g. there
      could equally be a search engine or site mapping scanner be at
      work). While when using a form of authentication the server can
      distinguish failed access attempts as it will result in 401/403
      errors access denied / forbidden - errors that can more easily
      used to identify failed attempts to gain access to policy URIs. <br>
      <br>
      3. Also consider that with "A policy URI is effectively a shared
      secret between Location Server and its clients." and the above
      section on access rights all involved parties have equal access
      rights for GET/PUT/DELETE, although they may not always be
      intended to be symmetric? <br>
      <br>
      4. Section 4.1.<br>
      " A policy URI MUST<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; use the "http:" or "https:" scheme, and the Location Server
      MUST<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp; support the specified operations on the URI."<br>
      Considering the confidential nature of the URI and the shared
      secret aspects, you should amend this by at least strongly
      suggesting that the "https scheme SHOULD be used whenever
      possible". <br>
      <br>
      the same in section 4.2. <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Minor Issues: <br>
      some of the abstract and introduction are particularly hard to
      read (even for RFCs). It might be useful to let a native speaker
      read over them and make them smoother / easier to understand.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Tobias<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
  </body>
</html>

--------------030803050209090600050403--

From mnot@mnot.net  Sat Dec 10 14:16:00 2011
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On 10/12/2011, at 6:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>   URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of resource
>   identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified and
>   described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery of
>   available services, configuring resource mappings, defining computed
>   links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
>   interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
>   be described by the following URI templates:

Seems workable to me.

Thanks,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From stpeter@stpeter.im  Sat Dec 10 14:28:36 2011
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On 12/10/11 3:15 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
> On 10/12/2011, at 6:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> 
>>   URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of resource
>>   identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified and
>>   described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery of
>>   available services, configuring resource mappings, defining computed
>>   links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
>>   interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
>>   be described by the following URI templates:
> 
> Seems workable to me.

To be clear, I suggested:

   A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters for describing a
   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion.
   URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of resource
   identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified and
   described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery of
   available services, configuring resource mappings, defining computed
   links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
   interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
   be described by the following URI templates:

(where the first sentence is copied from the Abstract...)



From mnot@mnot.net  Sat Dec 10 14:39:53 2011
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Yes. I ended up splitting it into two paragraphs, with the new sentence =
as the first (due to the combined length).

Cheers,


On 11/12/2011, at 9:28 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 12/10/11 3:15 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>=20
>> On 10/12/2011, at 6:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>=20
>>>  URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of =
resource
>>>  identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified =
and
>>>  described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery =
of
>>>  available services, configuring resource mappings, defining =
computed
>>>  links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
>>>  interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
>>>  be described by the following URI templates:
>>=20
>> Seems workable to me.
>=20
> To be clear, I suggested:
>=20
>   A URI Template is a compact sequence of characters for describing a
>   range of Uniform Resource Identifiers through variable expansion.
>   URI Templates provide a mechanism for abstracting a space of =
resource
>   identifiers such that the variable parts can be easily identified =
and
>   described.  URI templates can have many uses, including discovery of
>   available services, configuring resource mappings, defining computed
>   links, specifying interfaces, and other forms of programmatic
>   interaction with resources.  For example, the above resources could
>   be described by the following URI templates:
>=20
> (where the first sentence is copied from the Abstract...)
>=20
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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On 12/10/11 3:39 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Yes. I ended up splitting it into two paragraphs, with the new sentence as the first (due to the combined length).

Whatever works for you. :)


From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sat Dec 10 15:15:08 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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On 07/12/2011 09:07, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback. Responses inline.
>
> On 07/12/2011, at 2:18 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
>> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer
>> for this draft (for background on appsdir, please
>> see
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate
>> ).
>> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
>> you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document
>> shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>>
>> Document: draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
>> Title: URI Template
>>
>> Reviewer: Jiankang Yao
>> Review Date: December 7, 2011
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>> This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard. But before publication, the following
>> issues should be considered or addressed.
>>
>> Major issues:
>>
>>
>> 1) In section 1.5.  Notational Conventions
>>
>> There is a repetition of definition of ALPHA, DIGIT, HEXDIG,......
>>
>> There is a discussion in IETF: we should not give the repetition of definition of ABNF syntax if we can refer it to other documents. The reason is that repetition may bring the errors or misunderstanding.
>>
>> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from RFC5234" instead of repeating
>> "ALPHA          =  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
> Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
By copying definitions from other specs (instead of referencing them), 
you are risking introducing new errors and also risking that your 
document will not be updated when the referenced documents are updated.

My personal preference is not to copy definitions, but there is no hard 
rule on this.


From martin@algesten.se  Sat Dec 10 19:05:46 2011
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From: Martin Algesten <martin@algesten.se>
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Subject: [apps-discuss] JSON Patch: jsondiff and syntax
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(Sorry Paul C. Bryan, I'm stalking you from list to list. ;)

This is in reference to a discussion from a couple of days back=20
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg03884.html

Parallel to Paul's work I've dreamt up another JSON patch syntax and =
implemented a diff/patch tool here:

https://github.com/algesten/jsondiff#readme

I don't agree that the verbosity of the JSON Patch RFC =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04) is okay.

I believe one of the big reasons that JSON has gained such popularity =
over say XML, is the simplicity of it. The simplicity is gained by a =
loss of semantics or perhaps better call it "inferred" semantics. Such =
inference are even more obvious in other terse data exchange formats =
such as YAML.

JSON Patch goes against this by having very explicit verbs "add", =
"replace", "move" etc. I don't buy the argument that using gzip transfer =
encoding solves this. XML compresses amazingly well, but I rather see =
that as an argument that something is wrong in the format to start off =
with.

I also think about things like "diff -u" where the '+/-' becomes second =
nature and the patches are very readable. Currently a JSON Patch file is =
an instruction list of mutations - almost like a programming language, =
which for me is different to a diff. But then I'm clearly biased :)

Cheers,
Martin=

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Cc: mnot@mnot.net, IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
To: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: "IETF Apps Discuss" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>;
<draft-gregorio-uritemplate.all@tools.ietf.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:14 AM

> On 07/12/2011 09:07, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> > Thanks for the feedback. Responses inline.
> >
> > On 07/12/2011, at 2:18 PM, Jiankang YAO wrote:
> >> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer
> >> for this draft (for background on appsdir, please
> >> see
> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate
> >> ).
> >> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
> >> you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document
> >> shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
> >>
> >> Document: draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
> >> Title: URI Template
> >>
> >> Reviewer: Jiankang Yao
> >> Review Date: December 7, 2011
> >>
> >> Summary:
> >>
> >> This draft is almost ready for publication as a Proposed Standard. But
before publication, the following
> >> issues should be considered or addressed.
> >>
> >> Major issues:
> >>
> >>
> >> 1) In section 1.5.  Notational Conventions
> >>
> >> There is a repetition of definition of ALPHA, DIGIT, HEXDIG,......
> >>
> >> There is a discussion in IETF: we should not give the repetition of
definition of ABNF syntax if we can refer it to other documents. The reason is
that repetition may bring the errors or misunderstanding.
> >>
> >> Suggestion: for example, we just say "ALPHA, DIGIT are imported from
RFC5234" instead of repeating
> >> "ALPHA          =  %x41-5A / %x61-7A   ; A-Z / a-z"
> > Is this a discussion that's already taken place?
> By copying definitions from other specs (instead of referencing them),
> you are risking introducing new errors and also risking that your
> document will not be updated when the referenced documents are updated.
>
> My personal preference is not to copy definitions, but there is no hard
> rule on this.

I am with Roy on this one - keep it in.

Tom Petch


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Hi Mykyta,
At 06:19 11-12-2011, Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
>Julian, I have:
>
>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/link-relations/current/msg00296.html

   'Registration requests should be sent to the link-relations@ietf.org
    mailing list, marked clearly in the subject line (e.g., "NEW RELATION
    - example" to register an "example" relation type).'

The message you sent is a request for feedback.

Regards,
-sm 


From sm@elandsys.com  Sun Dec 11 10:06:46 2011
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From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Feedback on draft-moonesamy-smtp-ipv6-00
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Hello,

I'll summarize the feedback on draft-moonesamy-smtp-ipv6-00.  As 
usual, please correct me if I misinterpreted your comments.

Frank Ellermann [1] commented about the removal of the MX examples 
and mentioned that it helped him understand what RFC 3974 was 
about.  He suggested discussing the IPv6-only behaviour if IPv4 
addresses are reachable by some mapping mechanism.

John Levine [2] commented on step (9):

   "In step (9), you say "If a transient failure condition is reported,
    try the next MX RR" which looks wrong to me.  If you get a 4xx, you
    requeue the message and try it again later."

Tony Finch [5] mentioned that it "is a point of repeated disagreement 
and there is no accepted consensus".  Ned Freed [6] mentioned that 
"the point in the dialogue at which the 4yz is returned can also be a 
factor.  It's one thing to retry on a different A after getting a 4yz 
host temporarily unavailable response to EHLO; it's rather different 
to retry a different A after getting a 4yz user is over quota 
response to the final dot".

Murray Kucherawy [3] mentioned that the "SMTP Sender Algorithm in a 
Dual-Stack Environment" in RFC 3974, which has been removed in the 
draft, is useful for illustration.  He also asked whether the draft 
resolves the aspects of RFC3974 that were in conflict with what RFC5321 says.

I suggested the following text change for step (9):

(9)  Attempt to deliver the email over the connection established, as
      specified in RFC 5321.  If a transient failure condition is
      reported, try again as defined in RFC 5321 Section 4.5.4.1.

As John Levine [4] pointed out, "different MTAs have rather different 
retry strategies, both different timeouts, and different rules for 
how they retry, e.g., retry the same target host, retry starting at 
the same MX distance, retry from scratch.  Whether some or all of the 
hosts are on IPv6 doesn't change any of that".  The amended text does 
not prescribe a particular strategy.

Tony Finch [7] asked: with respect to dual stack, what is missing 
from section 5 of RFC 5321?

Dave Crocker [8] would like to see some very explicit discussion of 
"what details need to be covered that are not covered by 5321 (and to 
help get the consensus, what details in the new draft are redundant 
with which details in 5321".

RFC 3974 has been implemented in Exim, MS Exchange, Postfix and 
Sendmail.  RFC 5321 did not change the status of RFC 3974 (currently 
Informational, with an IESG Note).  Section 5.2 of RFC 5321 discusses 
about IPv6 and MX Records and mentions that the recommendations in 
RFC 3974 appear to be inconsistent with RFC 5321.

 From the note in step (5) in RFC 3974:

   "To encourage the transition from IPv4 SMTP to IPv6 SMTP, AAAA records
    should take precedence."

This has been changed in the draft to:

   "To encourage the transition from IPv4 to IPv6, AAAA RRs may take 
precedence."

The major change is the removal of the DNS-specific discussion (e.g. 
SERVFAIL, the note in step (4)), align the algorithm in RFC 3974 with 
the current standard and fix step (9).  I left the comment from 
Murray about providing more current operational experience open.  It 
may go into the appendix together with the MX examples (see Frank's 
comment).  I'll leave it to the editor of RFC 5321 to comment on 
whether the level of detail, e.g. the algorithm, would fit in a 
revision of that RFC.

RFC 5321 covers dual stack.  It also has the requirement "MUST be 
reported as an error" which is applicable for IPv6-only hosts trying 
to reach IPv4-only hosts.  Instead of a mapping mechanism, it is 
easier to make use of existing MX functionality by listing a 
dual-stack host to provide an alternate route to the destination.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. msg-id: CAHhFybqtrwGN=1_mLskXn0B1P3Gs2TMQrNX7Khv3BbCfB3ZZuQ@mail.gmail.com
2. msg-id: 20111115025746.26808.qmail@joyce.lan
3. msg-id: 
F5833273385BB34F99288B3648C4F06F19C6C15050@EXCH-C2.corp.cloudmark.com
4. msg-id: alpine.BSF.2.00.1111151741170.38874@joyce.lan
5. msg-id: alpine.LSU.2.00.1111151057160.5322@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk
6. msg-id: 01O8G0UJD0VS00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com
7. msg-id: alpine.LSU.2.00.1111151925030.30178@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk
8. msg-id: 4EC2DEC9.4070905@dcrocker.net


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Sun Dec 11 11:14:24 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for 
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments 
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd 
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
Title: Transport of Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) Messages
Reviewer: Julian Reschke
Review Date: 2011-12-11
IETF Last Call Date: not last-called yet
IESG Telechat Date: -

Summary: This draft is almost ready for publication as as a Proposed 
Standard and should be revised before publication

NOTE: I have *not* reviewed any security-related aspects.


Major Issues:

-

Minor Issues:

As pointed out in Section 3, this protocol really (ab)uses HTTP as a 
simple transport, and uses only a tiny subset of HTTP. This is properly 
explained, and the decision to use a custom port number makes sense.

What I'm missing here are a few things that would probably make it 
easier to understand what's actually required:

1) Does a RID endpoint need to implement all REQUIRED HTTP/1.1 features? 
For instance, does it need to understand Expect: 100-continue, and does 
it have to support GET and HEAD on "/"? Are there requirements for 
request URIs other than "/"?

2) What's the Internet Media Type to be used with RID payloads? Is it 
defined? If no, why not? Is it required to be used?

3) How do retries work when a request fails? Is the use of POST here 
idempotent so that the request can be repeated?

4) How does matching between request and callback work?

5) It might be a good idea to add a complete example of an exchange that 
uses the callback pattern.

Also, in Section 4:

    For transport confidentiality, identification, and authentication,
    TLS with mutual authentication MUST be used to secure the HTTP
    connection as in [RFC2818].  The session MUST use non-NULL
    ciphersuites for authentication, integrity, and confidentiality;
    sessions MAY be renegotiated within these constraints.  Although TLS
    implementations typically support the older SSL protocol, a RID peer
    MUST NOT request, offer, or use any version of SSL, or any version of
    TLS prior to 1.1 [RFC4346], due to known security vulnerabilities in
    prior versions of the protocol; see Appendix E of [RFC5246] for more.

This is a bit confusing because RFC5246 obsoletes RFC4346; there's 
probably a good reason for what it says here, but it might be good to 
explain what it is.

Nits:

    RID systems SHOULD NOT use TCP port 443 (the standard port for HTTP
    over TLS/SSL) for RID messages; this avoids posting RID messages to
    web servers that may not handle RID messages correctly.

Actually, it does not, because a web server may run on the RID port 
(4590) as well. If there's a security concern with the protocol with 
respect to generic web servers, it should be pointed out (and 
potentially fixed).

Abstract:

    (...).  This document updates the previous [RFC6046] to
    change the intended status to Proposed Standard, and to reference the
    updated RID specification.

This is procedural and should be moved to the Introduction (this will 
also fix the issue of having a reference in the Abstract).

    among members in a RID consortium.  This document specifies the
    transport of RID messages within HTTP [RFC2616] Request and Response
    messages transported over TLS [RFC5246] (herein, HTTP/TLS).  Note

Missing "." after [RFC2616].

1.2. Normative and Informative sections

    Section 3, Section 4, and Section 5 of this document are normative;
    the remainder of the document is informative.

I don't think is is needed here.

References:

draft-moriarty-mile-rfc6045-bis-02: [2011-08-27 ID-Exists Replaced] (not 
active)
RFC4346: [PROPOSED STANDARD] obsoleted by RFC5246; maybe this one is 
informative?


Best regards, Julian

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
To: <draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis@tools.ietf.org>; "IETF Apps Discuss"
<apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Cc: "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:14 PM

> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for
> this draft (for background on appsdir, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).
>
> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
> you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
> or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
> Title: Transport of Real-time Inter-network Defense (RID) Messages
> Reviewer: Julian Reschke
> Review Date: 2011-12-11
> IETF Last Call Date: not last-called yet
> IESG Telechat Date: -
>
> Summary: This draft is almost ready for publication as as a Proposed
> Standard and should be revised before publication
>
> NOTE: I have *not* reviewed any security-related aspects.
>
>
> Major Issues:
>
> -
>
> Minor Issues:
>
> As pointed out in Section 3, this protocol really (ab)uses HTTP as a
> simple transport, and uses only a tiny subset of HTTP. This is properly
> explained, and the decision to use a custom port number makes sense.
>
> What I'm missing here are a few things that would probably make it
> easier to understand what's actually required:
>
> 1) Does a RID endpoint need to implement all REQUIRED HTTP/1.1 features?
> For instance, does it need to understand Expect: 100-continue, and does
> it have to support GET and HEAD on "/"? Are there requirements for
> request URIs other than "/"?
>
> 2) What's the Internet Media Type to be used with RID payloads? Is it
> defined? If no, why not? Is it required to be used?
>
> 3) How do retries work when a request fails? Is the use of POST here
> idempotent so that the request can be repeated?
>
> 4) How does matching between request and callback work?
>
> 5) It might be a good idea to add a complete example of an exchange that
> uses the callback pattern.
>
> Also, in Section 4:
>
>     For transport confidentiality, identification, and authentication,
>     TLS with mutual authentication MUST be used to secure the HTTP
>     connection as in [RFC2818].  The session MUST use non-NULL
>     ciphersuites for authentication, integrity, and confidentiality;
>     sessions MAY be renegotiated within these constraints.  Although TLS
>     implementations typically support the older SSL protocol, a RID peer
>     MUST NOT request, offer, or use any version of SSL, or any version of
>     TLS prior to 1.1 [RFC4346], due to known security vulnerabilities in
>     prior versions of the protocol; see Appendix E of [RFC5246] for more.
>
> This is a bit confusing because RFC5246 obsoletes RFC4346; there's
> probably a good reason for what it says here, but it might be good to
> explain what it is.

Julian

It makes sense because RFC4346 is the formal definition of TLS1.1,
loopholes and all, whereas RFC5246 defines TLS1.2.  I think it
difficult to add any explanation without this becoming a TLS 101.

Tom Petch

> Nits:
>
>     RID systems SHOULD NOT use TCP port 443 (the standard port for HTTP
>     over TLS/SSL) for RID messages; this avoids posting RID messages to
>     web servers that may not handle RID messages correctly.
>
> Actually, it does not, because a web server may run on the RID port
> (4590) as well. If there's a security concern with the protocol with
> respect to generic web servers, it should be pointed out (and
> potentially fixed).
>
> Abstract:
>
>     (...).  This document updates the previous [RFC6046] to
>     change the intended status to Proposed Standard, and to reference the
>     updated RID specification.
>
> This is procedural and should be moved to the Introduction (this will
> also fix the issue of having a reference in the Abstract).
>
>     among members in a RID consortium.  This document specifies the
>     transport of RID messages within HTTP [RFC2616] Request and Response
>     messages transported over TLS [RFC5246] (herein, HTTP/TLS).  Note
>
> Missing "." after [RFC2616].
>
> 1.2. Normative and Informative sections
>
>     Section 3, Section 4, and Section 5 of this document are normative;
>     the remainder of the document is informative.
>
> I don't think is is needed here.
>
> References:
>
> draft-moriarty-mile-rfc6045-bis-02: [2011-08-27 ID-Exists Replaced] (not
> active)
> RFC4346: [PROPOSED STANDARD] obsoleted by RFC5246; maybe this one is
> informative?
>
>
> Best regards, Julian
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
>
>


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From: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
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To: Martin Algesten <martin@algesten.se>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] JSON Patch: jsondiff and syntax
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FWIW, discussion of which format is best for a diff should really be =
based
on what is being compared (a file or an abstract memory structure?) and =
what
is expected to process the diff.

For example, JSOP has a diff format

  =
http://wiki.apache.org/jackrabbit/Jsop#Draft_Implementations:_JSOP-Diff

that should be evaluated based on comparing JCR repository trees and an
understanding that the main processor is going to be a server-side patch
implementation.  Given that context, our JSON represents a state of the
JCR repository: the actual diff format does not need to be JSON because
it won't be processed by a browser (only generated by XHR).

I happen to agree that choosing any verbose diff format is a =
non-starter,
even if we assume compression, though I have a hard time evaluating a
JSON diff proposal without a more concrete notion of what it is intended
to do and why anyone would want to use it.

....Roy


On Dec 10, 2011, at 7:05 PM, Martin Algesten wrote:

> (Sorry Paul C. Bryan, I'm stalking you from list to list. ;)
>=20
> This is in reference to a discussion from a couple of days back=20
> =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg03884.html
>=20
> Parallel to Paul's work I've dreamt up another JSON patch syntax and =
implemented a diff/patch tool here:
>=20
> https://github.com/algesten/jsondiff#readme
>=20
> I don't agree that the verbosity of the JSON Patch RFC =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04) is okay.
>=20
> I believe one of the big reasons that JSON has gained such popularity =
over say XML, is the simplicity of it. The simplicity is gained by a =
loss of semantics or perhaps better call it "inferred" semantics. Such =
inference are even more obvious in other terse data exchange formats =
such as YAML.
>=20
> JSON Patch goes against this by having very explicit verbs "add", =
"replace", "move" etc. I don't buy the argument that using gzip transfer =
encoding solves this. XML compresses amazingly well, but I rather see =
that as an argument that something is wrong in the format to start off =
with.
>=20
> I also think about things like "diff -u" where the '+/-' becomes =
second nature and the patches are very readable. Currently a JSON Patch =
file is an instruction list of mutations - almost like a programming =
language, which for me is different to a diff. But then I'm clearly =
biased :)
>=20
> Cheers,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Mon Dec 12 01:25:36 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] JSON Patch: jsondiff and syntax
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On 2011-12-12 00:03, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> FWIW, discussion of which format is best for a diff should really be based
> on what is being compared (a file or an abstract memory structure?) and what
> is expected to process the diff.
>
> For example, JSOP has a diff format
>
>    http://wiki.apache.org/jackrabbit/Jsop#Draft_Implementations:_JSOP-Diff
>
> that should be evaluated based on comparing JCR repository trees and an
> understanding that the main processor is going to be a server-side patch
> implementation.  Given that context, our JSON represents a state of the
> JCR repository: the actual diff format does not need to be JSON because
> it won't be processed by a browser (only generated by XHR).
> ...

I think the question here is whether Javascript is used to generate (1) 
and to process (2) the format.

For (1), it should work with XHR. JSON-Patch just is a 
JSON-serialization of a JavaScript object. The author won't need to 
write a serializer. In JSOP's diff format, the author will have to 
combine custom elements with serialized Javascript objects. As such, the 
JSON parts of the diff format shouldn't make assumptions about 
Javascript that may not be true, such as member ordering (right now it 
does sort of).

For (2), the question of what parses the format is much more 
interesting. Sure, it won't be a browser. But with JSON Patch, it can be 
an off-the-shelf JSON library (such as Jackson).

Finally, two general points:

1) I'm not sure why verbosity is a problem. If it is, we can always 
Transfer/Content-encode gzip. For readability, we could switch from 
names like "add" to symbols like "+".

2) Compact formats can be a success; see Relax NG Compact Notation. I 
think the lesson to learn here is that there should be a 1-1 mapping 
between the compact notation and the verbose notation. That's currently 
not the case for JSOP's diff format, and I believe that's a problem.

Best regards, Julian

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I am forwarding the response to the review posted=20
at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg03805.html

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

>From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>
>
>Thanks for the detailed review, Mark.
>
>Preliminary draft 15 of the OAuth Bearer=20
>specification is attached.  It resolves the form=20
>encoding issues raised by Julian Reschke in the=20
>manner discussed at the working group meeting in=20
>Taipei, incorporates the consensus text on TLS=20
>version requirements, and contains several=20
>improvements suggested by Mark Nottingham during APPS area review.
>
>Mark, comments on all your proposed changes follow below:
>
>* Section 2.3 URI Query Parameter
>
>This section effectively reserves a URI query=20
>parameter for the draft's use. This should not=20
>be done lightly, since this would be a precedent=20
>for the IETF encroaching upon a server's URIs=20
>(done previously in RFC5785, but in a much more=20
>limited fashion, as a tactic to prevent further, uncontrolled=
 encroachment).
>
>Given that the draft already discourages the use=20
>of this mechanism, I'd recommend dropping it=20
>altogether. If the Working Group wishes it to=20
>remain, this issues should be vetted both=20
>through the APPS area and the W3C liaison.
>
>(The same criticism could be leveled at Section=20
>2.2 Form-Encoded Body Parameter, but that at=20
>least isn't surfaced in an identifier)
>
>There are some contexts, especially limited=20
>browsers and/or development environments, where=20
>query parameters are usable but the other=20
>methods are not.  Thus, the query parameter=20
>method must be retained.  Also, Justin Richter's=20
>comments describing the value to him of the=20
>query parameter method are pertinent:  A URL=20
>with all parameters including authorization is a=20
>powerful artifact which can be passed around between systems as a unit=9D.
>
>As to using a standard parameter name, this is=20
>essential for interoperability.  It is not=20
>reserved=9D in any contexts other than when the=20
>Bearer spec is employed, which is a voluntary=20
>act by both parties.  Thus, this poses no undue=20
>burdens or namespace restrictions on implementations in practice.
>
>Finally, you'll find that OAuth 1.0 [RFC 5849]=20
>similarly defined, not one, but two standard=20
>query parameter values:  oauth_token and=20
>oauth_verifier.  As this didn't cause any=20
>problems in practice then, I'm sure that=20
>defining an access_token parameter within the=20
>Bearer spec for interoperability purposes won't cause a problem either.
>
>* Section 3 The WWW-Authenticate Response Header Field
>
>The draft references the quoted-string ABNF from=20
>HTTP, but changes its processing in a later paragraph:
>
>"""In all these cases, no character quoting will=20
>occur, as senders are prohibited from using the %5C ('\') character."""
>
>This is at best surprising (as many readers will=20
>reasonably surmise that using the quoted-string=20
>ABNF implies that the same code can be used).
>Please either use quoted-string as defined (i.e., with escaping).
>
>This parameter definition was a result of=20
>significant working group discussion and=20
>reflects a solid consensus position.  Using the=20
>quoted string BNF makes it clear, per Julian=20
>Reschk's suggestions, that generic parameter=20
>parsing code can be safely used.  Whereas=20
>prohibiting the use of backslash quoting by=20
>senders also makes it clear that custom=20
>implementations can directly utilize the=20
>parameter values as transmitted without performing any quote processing.
>
>In short, the spec doesn't change the processing=20
>of quoted strings.  It simply restricts the set=20
>of legal input characters within the quoted strings.
>
>* Section 1: Introduction
>
>The introduction explains oauth, but it doesn't=20
>fully explain the relationship of this=20
>specification to OAuth 2.0. E.g., can it be used=20
>independently from the rest of OAuth? Likewise, the overview (section
>1.3) seems more specific to the OAuth specification than this document.
>As I read it, this mechanism could be used for=20
>ANY bearer token, not just one generated through OAuth flows.
>
>If it is indeed more general, I'd recommend=20
>minimising the discussion of OAuth, perhaps even=20
>removing it from the document title.
>
>Per your suggestion, I've made it clear in the=20
>introduction that bearer tokens from any source=20
>can be used to access associated protected=20
>resources.  The new language in the introduction is:
>
>This specification defines the use of bearer=20
>tokens over HTTP/1.1=20
>[I-D.ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging] using TLS=20
>[RFC5246] to access protected resources. =85 While=20
>designed for use with access tokens resulting=20
>from OAuth 2.0 Authorization [I-D.ietf-oauth-v2]=20
>flows to access OAuth protected resources, this=20
>specification actually defines a general HTTP=20
>authorization method that can be used with=20
>bearer tokens from any source to access any=20
>resources protected by those bearer tokens.
>
>* Section 3 The WWW-Authenticate Response Header Field
>
>The difference between a realm and a scope is=20
>not explained. Are the functionally equivalent,=20
>just a single value vs. a list?
>
>Realm is as defined by HTTPbis.  It says that=20
>The realm value is a string, generally assigned=20
>by the origin server, which can have additional=20
>semantics specific to the authentication=20
>scheme.  The Bearer specification intentionally=20
>adds no extra semantics to the realm=20
>definition.  Whereas the scope parameter is=20
>defined as an order-independent space-separated=20
>list of scope values.  The contextual meaning of=20
>both the realm and scope parameters is deployment-dependent.
>
>Do you really intend to disallow *all* extension parameters on the=
 challenge?
>
>Yes.  There was an explicit working group consensus decision to do so.
>
>Also, the scope, error, error_description and=20
>error_uri parameters all specify only a=20
>quoted-string serialisation. HTTPbis strongly=20
>suggests that new schemes allow both forms,=20
>because implementation experience has shown that=20
>implementations will likely support both, no=20
>matter how defined; this improves interoperability (see p7 2.3.1).
>
>Once again, the current text reflects a=20
>consensus decision of the working group.  It was=20
>viewed that requiring support for multiple ways=20
>of doing the same thing unnecessarily=20
>complicated implementations without any=20
>compensating benefit; better to support one=20
>syntax for each semantic operation and require all implementations to use=
 it.
>
>Finally, the error_description parameter can=20
>carry only ASCII characters. While I understand=20
>a tradeoff has been made here (and, in my=20
>judgement, an appropriate one), it's appropriate to highlight this in=
 review.
>
>Noted
>
>* General
>
>The draft currently doesn't mention whether=20
>Bearer is suitable for use as a proxy=20
>authentication scheme. I suspect it *may*; it=20
>would be worth discussing this with some proxy=20
>implementers to gauge their interest (e.g., Squid).
>
>Who would you recommend review the draft from this perspective?
>
>Finally, Mark, I applied all the editorial=20
>suggestions you made.  Thanks for those.
>
>Mark, Stephen, and chairs, please let me know=20
>whether to now post this draft as an actual submission.
>
>                                                             Thanks all,
>                                                             -- Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: oauth-bounces@ietf.org=20
>[mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
>Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
>Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:51 PM
>To: oauth@ietf.org
>Subject: [OAUTH-WG] FW: [apps-discuss] APPS Area=20
>review of draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-14
>
>FYI
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org
>[mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Mark Nottingham
>Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:22 AM
>To: IETF Apps Discuss; draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer.all@ietf.org
>Cc: The IESG
>Subject: [apps-discuss] APPS Area review of
>draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-14
>
>I have been selected as the Applications Area=20
>Review Team reviewer for this draft (for=20
>background on apps-review, please see=20
><http://www.apps.ietf.org/content/applications-area-review-team>).
>
>Please resolve these comments along with any=20
>other Last Call comments you may receive. Please=20
>wait for direction from your document shepherd=20
>or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
>Document: draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-14
>Title: OAuth 2.0 Bearer Tokens
>Reviewer: Mark Nottingham
>Review Date: 24/11/2011
>
>Summary: This draft is almost ready for=20
>publication as a Proposed Standard, but has a few issues that should be=
 fixed.
>
>Major Issues
>------------
>
>* Section 2.3 URI Query Parameter
>
>This section effectively reserves a URI query=20
>parameter for the draft's use. This should not=20
>be done lightly, since this would be a precedent=20
>for the IETF encroaching upon a server's URIs=20
>(done previously in RFC5785, but in a much more=20
>limited fashion, as a tactic to prevent further, uncontrolled=
 encroachment).
>
>Given that the draft already discourages the use=20
>of this mechanism, I'd recommend dropping it=20
>altogether. If the Working Group wishes it to=20
>remain, this issues should be vetted both=20
>through the APPS area and the W3C liaison.
>
>(The same criticism could be leveled at Section=20
>2.2 Form-Encoded Body Parameter, but that at=20
>least isn't surfaced in an identifier)
>
>* Section 3 The WWW-Authenticate Response Header Field
>
>The draft references the quoted-string ABNF from=20
>HTTP, but changes its processing in a later paragraph:
>
>"""In all these cases, no character quoting will=20
>occur, as senders are prohibited from using the %5C ('\') character."""
>
>This is at best surprising (as many readers will=20
>reasonably surmise that using the quoted-string=20
>ABNF implies that the same code can be used).
>Please either use quoted-string as defined (i.e., with escaping).
>
>
>Minor Issues
>------------
>
>* Section 1: Introduction
>
>The introduction explains oauth, but it doesn't=20
>fully explain the relationship of this=20
>specification to OAuth 2.0. E.g., can it be used=20
>independently from the rest of OAuth? Likewise, the overview (section
>1.3) seems more specific to the OAuth specification than this document.
>As I read it, this mechanism could be used for=20
>ANY bearer token, not just one generated through OAuth flows.
>
>If it is indeed more general, I'd recommend=20
>minimising the discussion of OAuth, perhaps even=20
>removing it from the document title.
>
>* Section 3 The WWW-Authenticate Response Header Field
>
>The difference between a realm and a scope is=20
>not explained. Are the functionally equivalent,=20
>just a single value vs. a list?
>
>Do you really intend to disallow *all* extension parameters on the=
 challenge?
>
>Also, the scope, error, error_description and=20
>error_uri parameters all specify only a=20
>quoted-string serialisation. HTTPbis strongly=20
>suggests that new schemes allow both forms,=20
>because implementation experience has shown that=20
>implementations will likely support both, no=20
>matter how defined; this improves interoperability (see p7 2.3.1).
>
>Finally, the error_description parameter can=20
>carry only ASCII characters. While I understand=20
>a tradeoff has been made here (and, in my=20
>judgement, an appropriate one), it's appropriate to highlight this in=
 review.
>
>* General
>
>The draft currently doesn't mention whether=20
>Bearer is suitable for use as a proxy=20
>authentication scheme. I suspect it *may*; it=20
>would be worth discussing this with some proxy=20
>implementers to gauge their interest (e.g., Squid).
>
>
>Nits
>----
>
>* Section 2.1 Authorization Request Header Field
>
>"simplicity reasons" --> "simplicity"
>
>"If additional parameters are desired in the=20
>future, a different scheme could be defined."=20
>--> "If additional parameters are needed in the=20
>future, a different scheme would need to be defined."
>
>* Section 3 The WWW-Authenticate Response Header Field
>
>The requirement that a resource server MUST=20
>include the HTTP WWW-Authenticate response=20
>header field is odd; really this is at the=20
>discretion of the server. Is it really necessary=20
>to use a conformance requirement here?
>
>URI-reference --> URI-Reference
>
>* Section 3.1 Error Codes
>
>405 belongs in the list of typically appropriate status codes as well.
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>--
>Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/

--=====================_625846386==_
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--=====================_625846386==_
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.txt"

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--=====================_625846386==_
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.pdf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.pdf"

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Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.xml"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer-15 preliminary.xml"

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--=====================_625846386==_--


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Subject: [apps-discuss] Review of "A Location Dereferencing Protocol Using HELD"
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-geopriv-deref-protocol-04
Title: A Location Dereferencing Protocol Using HELD
Reviewer: Ted Hardie
Review Date: 12/12/2011

Summary: There are some editorial issues which it would be useful to
address, but within the right context,  the document seems to be okay.
 There is also one extensibility question.

Minor Issues:

The document's introductory section is likely to be confusing to new
readers, as it assumes both a pretty deep familiarity with RFC 5808
and RFC 5985, as well as some additional knowledge of the protocol
contexts in which URIs are provided.  Those documents are referenced
early, but it might be useful to make the dependence on them even more
explicit.  Something like "This document describes a location
dereferencing mechanism within the context of the location by
reference model set out in RFC 5808, and readers are advised to
familiarize themselves with the requirements set out in RFC 5808 prior
to proceeding (see also the appendix).  The protocol is described in
terms which assume familiarity with HELD (RFC 5985), and it should be
reviewed by anyone considering implementation or deployment of this
mechanism.  While at its base the protocol specified here describes
how an HTTP or HTTPS-based HELD request to a specified URI returns an
XML  formatted response containing a location, this occurs within a
context with specific authentication and authorization requirements,
and these need to be well-understood to maintain the integrity of the
system described."

As I tried to read this from the point of view of a new reader, it
also struck me that bringing sections 4 & 5 forward to before section
3 might make it easier to follow.  As it stands now, the authorization
model discussion relative to the URIs occurs prior to the discussion
of the protocol mechanism.  I understand the reasons for that, but it
may be confusion.  I have not written out the sections in the other
order, so it may be more difficult than it is worth to make the
change, but it seemed at first glance that all it would take is
mechanical movement plus an opening section in the new section 5
(previously 3) saying something like  "As is demonstrated above, the
dereferencing of one of these URIs produces location data, and access
to this operation thus requires authorization similar to that of
providing the location data directly.  The sections below describe
authorization models and methods, and describe when they might be
appropriate to deploy."

It would also be useful to describe whether these methods may be
extended.  Someone who wanted to re-use URLAUTH principles, for
example, could create a method that was proof-of-possession but which
allowed only one use (thus thwarting replay attacks).  That would
require new language (it's not idempotent, obviously, so a method
would have to be described); would that require an update to the
document?

From trammell@tik.ee.ethz.ch  Mon Dec 12 08:59:29 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
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Hi, Julian,

Thank you for the detailed review; answers to questions which can be =
simply addressed in the document will be incorporated into the next =
revision.=20

I'm copying comments on specific points for discussion to mile and =
apps-area, inline.

Best regards,

Brian

On Dec 11, 2011, at 8:14 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> What I'm missing here are a few things that would probably make it =
easier to understand what's actually required:
>=20
> 1) Does a RID endpoint need to implement all REQUIRED HTTP/1.1 =
features? For instance, does it need to understand Expect: 100-continue, =
and does it have to support GET and HEAD on "/"? Are there requirements =
for request URIs other than "/"?

As (1) the probable implementation path in most cases is to build a RID =
implementation atop an existing web server and (2) there is probably =
more to lose than to gain in attempting to define a coherent subset of =
the REQUIRED features, I would tend to think that all HTTP/1.1 REQUIRED =
features are REQUIRED for RID transport over HTTP/1.1. This goes for =
proper handling of potentially cached content and "proxy-friendliness", =
as well as handling of 100 Continue... (Is there a list of REQUIRED =
features in 1.1? seems like this would be a useful thing to have in a =
BCP56-bis...)

On specific points:

I presume that any access to non / URIs should return 404, since those =
resources in essence do not exist on the server; this should be noted.

The question as to what to do in case of GET / and HEAD / should be =
addressed, and I'm not sure what the right thing to do here is. =
Logically, this should be the same as what happens as POST with an empty =
body, which is also presently undefined. Allowing a text/html reply =
explaining that this is a RID system and what that is might be the most =
"user-friendly" solution (for people who aren't actually users of the =
system) but having the semantics and the media type of the reply depend =
on the method seems a little wrong, too. I presume a 405 Method Not =
Allowed violates a MUST in 2616? In any case, it would probably be =
difficult to implement based on many/most existing web servers.

> Nits:
>=20
>   RID systems SHOULD NOT use TCP port 443 (the standard port for HTTP
>   over TLS/SSL) for RID messages; this avoids posting RID messages to
>   web servers that may not handle RID messages correctly.
>=20
> Actually, it does not, because a web server may run on the RID port =
(4590) as well. If there's a security concern with the protocol with =
respect to generic web servers, it should be pointed out (and =
potentially fixed).

There's no security problem (at least, accidental connection to the =
wrong server should be prevented by proper verification of =
certificates). The intention here is simply that a RID System be easily =
distinguishable from a "normal" web server.



From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Dec 13 09:45:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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Restarting this thread to get closure...

On 11/15/11 8:21 PM, Zach Shelby wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:06 AM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote:
> 
>> * Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> So, let's say I have "foo" data that can be represented in either
>>> plain old XML or as EXI. If I send that "foo" data as plain old
>>> XML, the "application/foo+xml" media type is right. If I send
>>> that "foo" data as EXI, the "application/foo+exi" media type
>>> seems wrong, and so does the "application/exi" media type (just
>>> as "application/xml" would not be right for the first encoding).
>>> Sure, I don't particularly want to duplicate all "+xml" entries
>>> with "+exi" entries, but I don't think that every protocol or
>>> community that sends around XML data will also send around
>>> EXI-encoded data.
>> 
>> The idea is that "EXI" is more like "gzip", so with HTTP you would
>> do
>> 
>> Content-Type: application/foo+xml Content-Encoding: exi
>> 
>> As you would for gzip-compressed content.
> 
> Ouch, don't do that.
> 
> The main interest right now for EXI is in constrained networks, and
> in particular over CoAP. We don't have support for indicating
> content-encoding in CoAP. Besides, the current media type for EXI is
> application/exi. Thus it would make perfect sense to have +exi
> entries. Furthermore, EXI is totally different than gzip, which is a
> generic encoding that can be applied to anything. EXI can be applied
> only to XML objects, and in particular EXI is often used in a schema
> mode where it is only applicable to a single schema. Thus the form
> application/schema+exi makes even more sense, as that EXI format is
> actually specific to that particular schema and the media type tells
> you everything that is needed to decode the representation.

I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:

1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then decompress
it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we all
know and love.

2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, you
never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead it
is always a binary representation.

It seems to me that #1 is similar to gzip, i.e., the textual
representation is encoded using EXI compression, so we'd have this:

   Content-Type: application/foo+xml
   Content-Encoding: exi

It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
appropriate.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>, Zach Shelby <zach@sensinode.com>
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At 09:45 13-12-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>appropriate.

I don't know whether Item B at 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/minutes/yam.txt is relevant to the 
discussion.

Regards,
-sm 


From lear@cisco.com  Tue Dec 13 10:14:33 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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Greetings draft authors!

I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see
 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).


Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
Title: Common requirements for Carrier Grade NATs (CGNs)
Reviewer: Eliot Lear
Review Date: 13 Dec. 2011

This proposed BCP specifies requirements for Carrier Grade NATs.  In my
opinion, there are several major issues and several questions should be
answered before this draft is progressed.

*Major issues*

The following text needs substantial work.

>    Readers should be aware of potential issues that may arise when
>    sharing a public address between many subscribers.  See [RFC6269 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6269>] for
>    details.
As such, the caution listed above seems extremely weak.  There is *no
way* to safeguard applications 100% against the problems of CGNs, just
as there was no way to safeguard applications from NATs.  CGNs introduce
a new level of problems, which you reference, but this must be said.  I
am not asking for you to go into a whole rant on CGNs, but "issues"
reminds me of "obviously, there's been a major malfunction".

  * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say something
    about why SCTP is NOT on the list.  Moreover, your logic in this
    requirement to me doesn't hold.  There is a substantial difference
    between a NAT within an administrative domain that can be managed by
    the subscriber, and one that realistically cannot be.  Therefore,
    the requirements upon CGNs should be *stronger*.  Of course this
    should be balanced by other considerations, such as keeping the
    Internet growing, but the logic needs to be exposed.  For instance,
    it may not be possible to safeguard certain IPSEC deployments.
  * Req10: Â§14.1.1 of draft-ietf-pcp-base-16 states that failure to
    segment of traffic opens attacks.  Why was a requirement not added
    to address this?
  * Req13: Question; if destination addresses and ports are not logged,
    is there sufficient information to determine a UNIQUE mapping
    necessary for LI purposes?  Put another way, is the mapping a
    3-tuple or a 5-tuple?
  * This requirements document should be reviewed by game developers to
    get their PoV.  As I understand it, they don't do pcp, but more
    uPnP, ice & stun. Perhaps that's just a timing thing.

*Minor issues*

  * I understand that traditional telcos might not be the only ones to
    offer CGN, the definition of a CGN seems strained, particulary as
    when relates to "administrative entity".  This may be in part due to
    the expansion of scope of what is trying to be solved.  I have no
    great suggestion for you here.

*Nits*

  * Yes, there is a terminology section, but NAT un-NATing, and ISPs are
    not properly defined in their first use in the Introduction.
  * In Figure 1 it may be useful to show IP addresses.

*Very very very nitty (can largely be ignored)*

  * Something odd going on with your reference to RFC5382 on
    tools.ietf.orgâ€“ no link.  Check source and maybe check with the IETF
    tools people.


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <p>
      Greetings draft authors!</p>
    <p>I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate
      reviewer for this draft (for background on appsdir, please see <a
        class="ext-link"
href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate"><span
          class="icon">Â </span>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate</a>).
    </p>
    <p>
      Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call
      comments you may receive. Please wait for direction from your
      document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.</p>
    Document: draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05<br>
    Title:
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    Common requirements for Carrier Grade NATs (CGNs)<br>
    Reviewer: Eliot Lear<br>
    Review Date: 13 Dec. 2011<br>
    <br>
    This proposed BCP specifies requirements for Carrier Grade NATs.Â  In
    my opinion, there are several major issues and several questions
    should be answered before this draft is progressed. <br>
    <br>
    <b>Major issues</b><br>
    <br>
    The following text needs substantial work.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <pre class="newpage">   Readers should be aware of potential issues that may arise when
   sharing a public address between many subscribers.  See [<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6269" title="&quot;Issues with IP Address Sharing&quot;">RFC6269</a>] for
   details.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    As such, the caution listed above seems extremely weak.Â  There is <b>no
      way</b> to safeguard applications 100% against the problems of
    CGNs, just as there was no way to safeguard applications from NATs.Â 
    CGNs introduce a new level of problems, which you reference, but
    this must be said.Â  I am not asking for you to go into a whole rant
    on CGNs, but "issues" reminds me of "obviously, there's been a major
    malfunction".<br>
    <ul>
      <li>Req1: Whither SCTP?Â  At the very least someone should say
        something about why SCTP is NOT on the list.Â  Moreover, your
        logic in this requirement to me doesn't hold.Â  There is a
        substantial difference between a NAT within an administrative
        domain that can be managed by the subscriber, and one that
        realistically cannot be.Â  Therefore, the requirements upon CGNs
        should be <b>stronger</b>.Â  Of course this should be balanced
        by other considerations, such as keeping the Internet growing,
        but the logic needs to be exposed.Â  For instance, it may not be
        possible to safeguard certain IPSEC deployments.<br>
      </li>
      <li>Req10: Â§14.1.1 of draft-ietf-pcp-base-16 states that failure
        to segment of traffic opens attacks.Â  Why was a requirement not
        added to address this?<br>
      </li>
      <li>Req13: Question; if destination addresses and ports are not
        logged, is there sufficient information to determine a UNIQUE
        mapping necessary for LI purposes?Â  Put another way, is the
        mapping a 3-tuple or a 5-tuple?</li>
      <li>This requirements document should be reviewed by game
        developers to get their PoV.Â  As I understand it, they don't do
        pcp, but more uPnP, ice &amp; stun. Perhaps that's just a timing
        thing.<br>
      </li>
    </ul>
    <b>Minor issues</b><br>
    <br>
    <ul>
      <li>I understand that traditional telcos might not be the only
        ones to offer CGN, the definition of a CGN seems strained,
        particulary as when relates to "administrative entity".Â  This
        may be in part due to the expansion of scope of what is trying
        to be solved.Â  I have no great suggestion for you here.</li>
    </ul>
    <b>Nits</b><br>
    <ul>
      <li>Yes, there is a terminology section, but NAT un-NATing, and
        ISPs are not properly defined in their first use in the
        Introduction.</li>
      <li>
        In Figure 1 it may be useful to show IP addresses.</li>
    </ul>
    <b>Very very very nitty (can largely be ignored)</b><br>
    <ul>
      <li>Something odd going on with your reference to RFC5382 on
        tools.ietf.orgâ€“ no link.Â  Check source and maybe check with the
        IETF tools people.<br>
      </li>
    </ul>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </body>
</html>

--------------010406000705020403050701--

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Dec 13 13:19:33 2011
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References: <4EBBB0EE.8050502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O88YVG6MQY00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EBCCE76.2090807@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O8AM6GDT5000RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC0CCAE.5070402@stpeter.im> <01O8EWMK2T8E00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC2DC42.7010307@stpeter.im> <01O8GE5O3B5K00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D0611DAC31D@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com> <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20111213095846.0b676240@resistor.net>
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On 12/13/11 11:02 AM, SM wrote:
> At 09:45 13-12-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>> appropriate.
> 
> I don't know whether Item B at
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/minutes/yam.txt is relevant to the
> discussion.

Sort of. :)

The case of gzipped SVG is a good example of an encoding of a content
type. The case of a binary representation of an XML infoset might be an
example of a content type (as opposed to a compressed encoding of
textual XML, which I think we all agree is an encoding of a content
type). Before IETF 82, I was not aware of the EXI mode that represents
an XML infoset directly in binary, but some folks there enlightened me,
so I think there is more subtlety here than was reflected in this thread
in early November.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Tue Dec 13 13:40:39 2011
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References: <4EBBB0EE.8050502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O88YVG6MQY00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EBCCE76.2090807@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <01O8AM6GDT5000RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC0CCAE.5070402@stpeter.im> <01O8EWMK2T8E00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC2DC42.7010307@stpeter.im> <01O8GE5O3B5K00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D0611DAC31D@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com> <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20111213095846.0b676240@resistor.net> <4EE7C162.9010802@stpeter.im>
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On 2011-12-13 22:19, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 12/13/11 11:02 AM, SM wrote:
>> At 09:45 13-12-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>>> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>>> appropriate.
>>
>> I don't know whether Item B at
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/minutes/yam.txt is relevant to the
>> discussion.
>
> Sort of. :)
>
> The case of gzipped SVG is a good example of an encoding of a content

Well, until people start looking for a content type to map their "svgz" 
files to, or need to embed gzipped SVG into a data URI.

The decision to clarify that "image/svg+xml" isn't useable for that was 
right, but this use case may really required a separate content type.

> type. The case of a binary representation of an XML infoset might be an
> example of a content type (as opposed to a compressed encoding of
> textual XML, which I think we all agree is an encoding of a content
> type). Before IETF 82, I was not aware of the EXI mode that represents
> an XML infoset directly in binary, but some folks there enlightened me,
> so I think there is more subtlety here than was reflected in this thread
> in early November.

I'm not sure that I understand the difference. Both are compression 
formats. One may be specialized for XML, but otherwise?

Best regards, Julian

From carine@jay.w3.org  Tue Dec 13 13:58:29 2011
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To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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References: <01O8EWMK2T8E00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4EC2DC42.7010307@stpeter.im> <01O8GE5O3B5K00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D0611DAC31D@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com> <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im>
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:45:19AM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.
> 
> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:
> 
> 1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
> EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then decompress
> it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we all
> know and love.
> 
> 2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, you
> never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead it
> is always a binary representation.

It is not exactly 2 modes. The EXI 1.0 Recommendation only specifies a 
compressed encoding of an XML Infoset. Applications that include an EXI 
processor may use different approaches around the encoding/decoding process. 
So, you can have applications with a (text) XML document as an input
(what you describe as #1), and applications that never use a text
serialization (your #2).

> It seems to me that #1 is similar to gzip, i.e., the textual
> representation is encoded using EXI compression, so we'd have this:
> 
>    Content-Type: application/foo+xml
>    Content-Encoding: exi
> 
> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
> appropriate.

The W3C EXI Working Group has decided not to follow the +exi path, 
since it involved a potentially infinite number of types to register.
There could also be conformance issues: an EXI stream not encoded
from a text version might not be necessarily serialized as a conformant
"foo" after decoding from its EXI form. It needs some specification 
work for each foo+exi.
The generic application/exi content-type is meant to be used for cases 
where there is no serialization from/to a standard format (then no 
content-type can be used), as well as for protocols that have no 
content-encoding capability.


-- 
Carine Bournez -+- W3C Europe


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From: Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.com>
To: dc@ietf.org
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Cc: vnrg@irtf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, l3vpn@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: [apps-discuss] slides from Dr. Chu's lunch time talk on Smart Cloud Computing Network Architecture and Services during IETF-82
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--f46d0447851558549604b400a699
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For the Cloud and Data center enthusiasts, the slides from
Dr. Chu's lunch time talk on
Smart Cloud Computing Network Architecture and Services
during IETF-82 ( (on Thu-17-Nov.-2011, Taipei, Taiwan) can
be found at the following  website:

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/attachment/wiki/Clouds/

The file names are

part1-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-Serv=
ices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf
(990.4 KB)

part2-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-Serv=
ices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf
(742.0 KB)

part3-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-Serv=
ices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf
(813.0 KB)

Thanks.
Best.

Bhumip Khasnabish
vumip1@gmail.com
bhumip.khasnabish@zteusa.com
+1-781-752-8003 (mobile)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bhumipkhasnabish

                   __o
             _ `\ <, _
.......... ( =95 ) / ( =95 ) ......................

--f46d0447851558549604b400a699
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<div>For the Cloud and Data center enthusiasts, the slides from </div>
<div>Dr. Chu&#39;s lunch time talk on</div>
<div>Smart Cloud Computing Network Architecture and Services </div>
<div>during IETF-82 ( (on Thu-17-Nov.-2011, Taipei, Taiwan) can </div>
<div>be found at the following=A0 website:</div>
<div><br clear=3D"all"><a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/=
attachment/wiki/Clouds/" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/=
app/trac/attachment/wiki/Clouds/</a><br></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>The file names are </div>
<div><span lang=3D"EN">
<p>part1-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-S=
ervices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf (990.4 KB) </p>
<p>part2-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-S=
ervices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf (742.0 KB) </p>
<p>part3-IETF-82-LunchTalk-Smart-Cloud-Computing-Network-Architecture-and-S=
ervices_v3-Public-Thu17Nov2011.pdf (813.0 KB)</p></span></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Thanks.<br></div>
<div>Best.<br><br>Bhumip Khasnabish</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:vumip1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vumip1@gmail.com=
</a> </div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:bhumip.khasnabish@zteusa.com" target=3D"_blank">bhum=
ip.khasnabish@zteusa.com</a> =A0</div>
<div><a href=3D"tel:%2B1-781-752-8003" target=3D"_blank" value=3D"+17817528=
003">+1-781-752-8003</a> (mobile) <br><a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in=
/bhumipkhasnabish" target=3D"_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/bhumipkhasn=
abish</a>=A0 </div>

<div><br>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 __o<br>=A0=
=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 _ `\ &lt;, _<br>.......... ( =95 ) / ( =95 =
) ......................<br></div><br>

--f46d0447851558549604b400a699--

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Dec 13 14:36:14 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On 12/13/11 2:58 PM, Carine Bournez wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:45:19AM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.
>>
>> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:
>>
>> 1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
>> EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then decompress
>> it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we all
>> know and love.
>>
>> 2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, you
>> never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead it
>> is always a binary representation.
> 
> It is not exactly 2 modes. The EXI 1.0 Recommendation only specifies a 
> compressed encoding of an XML Infoset. Applications that include an EXI 
> processor may use different approaches around the encoding/decoding process. 
> So, you can have applications with a (text) XML document as an input
> (what you describe as #1), and applications that never use a text
> serialization (your #2).
> 
>> It seems to me that #1 is similar to gzip, i.e., the textual
>> representation is encoded using EXI compression, so we'd have this:
>>
>>    Content-Type: application/foo+xml
>>    Content-Encoding: exi
>>
>> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>> appropriate.
> 
> The W3C EXI Working Group has decided not to follow the +exi path, 
> since it involved a potentially infinite number of types to register.
> There could also be conformance issues: an EXI stream not encoded
> from a text version might not be necessarily serialized as a conformant
> "foo" after decoding from its EXI form. It needs some specification 
> work for each foo+exi.
> The generic application/exi content-type is meant to be used for cases 
> where there is no serialization from/to a standard format (then no 
> content-type can be used), as well as for protocols that have no 
> content-encoding capability.

Thank you for the clarifications.

The example that raised this issue for me was the ZigBee Alliance Smart
Energy Profile 2.0, which supports both a text serialization of their
XML format and an EXI representation. Tom Herbst and Paul Duffy can
describe that use case more accurately than I can, but based on what
you've said it seems that they would use application/sep+xml and note a
content encoding of EXI for the second case. However, it is possible
that (if their transport/transfer protocols do not have a way to note
the content encoding) they might use application/exi for the second
case. I'll let Tom and Paul speak to that. Zach Shelby might also have
opinions in the matter. In any case, I think they have the information
they need to make the right decision in the ZigBee Alliance (and if not
they can speak up).

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



From mnot@mnot.net  Tue Dec 13 14:37:36 2011
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On 14/12/2011, at 8:58 AM, Carine Bournez wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:45:19AM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.
>>=20
>> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:
>>=20
>> 1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
>> EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then =
decompress
>> it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we =
all
>> know and love.
>>=20
>> 2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, =
you
>> never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead =
it
>> is always a binary representation.
>=20
> It is not exactly 2 modes. The EXI 1.0 Recommendation only specifies a=20=

> compressed encoding of an XML Infoset. Applications that include an =
EXI=20
> processor may use different approaches around the encoding/decoding =
process.=20
> So, you can have applications with a (text) XML document as an input
> (what you describe as #1), and applications that never use a text
> serialization (your #2).


If I remember correctly, it also has modes where the schema (as a =
separate document) is required to be able to decode the document; is =
that still the case, Carine?

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/




From carine@jay.w3.org  Wed Dec 14 01:23:46 2011
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 04:23:36 -0500
From: Carine Bournez <carine@w3.org>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 09:37:27AM +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
> If I remember correctly, it also has modes where the schema (as a separate document) is required to be able to decode the document; is that still the case, Carine?
> 

Hi,
In the schema-informed mode the encoder and the decoder use a schema,
the EXI 1.0 version specifies XML schema informed grammars. The reference
to that schema is carried in the EXI header. The format of that "schemaId" 
is not specified for 1.0 processors, it can be whatever is practical for 
the application. It is *optional* in the EXI header, even when a schema is
in use: applications can also "share" this information out of band. 
EXI 1.0 is intentionally liberal on a number of details and defers them to 
the application level, so that it can support a large range of use cases.


-- 
Carine Bournez -+- W3C Europe


From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca  Wed Dec 14 07:22:45 2011
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Cc: draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org, 'IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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Eliot,

Thanks for your review.

As you'll see below, I did not agree with many of your suggestions. It is 
unusual, my style is not to push back a lot. I'm sorry about that.

On 2011-12-13 13:14, Eliot Lear wrote:
> The following text needs substantial work.
>
>>     Readers should be aware of potential issues that may arise when
>>     sharing a public address between many subscribers.  See [RFC6269  <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6269>] for
>>     details.
> As such, the caution listed above seems extremely weak.  There is *no way* to
> safeguard applications 100% against the problems of CGNs, just as there was no
> way to safeguard applications from NATs.  CGNs introduce a new level of problems,
> which you reference, but this must be said.  I am not asking for you to go into a
> whole rant on CGNs, but "issues" reminds me of "obviously, there's been a major
> malfunction".

I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate that into text. RFC6269 appears clear to 
me. Do you have an example of text you would like to see?

>   * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say something about why
>     SCTP is NOT on the list.

There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP, UDP, and ICMP. 
There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could debate this. But right now it's 
just impossible to say "support SCTP" without saying how this is done.

>     Moreover, your logic in this requirement to me
>     doesn't hold.  There is a substantial difference between a NAT within an
>     administrative domain that can be managed by the subscriber, and one that
>     realistically cannot be.  Therefore, the requirements upon CGNs should be
>     *stronger*.  Of course this should be balanced by other considerations, such
>     as keeping the Internet growing, but the logic needs to be exposed.  For
>     instance, it may not be possible to safeguard certain IPSEC deployments.

Each of the requirements in our draft is imposed on CGNs but not on other NATs, 
while other NAT-generic requirements that are found in existing RFCs must still 
be obeyed by CGNs. To me it is clear that CGNs have a stricter set of 
requirements to fulfill.

>   * Req10: Â§14.1.1 of draft-ietf-pcp-base-16 states that failure to segment of
>     traffic opens attacks.  Why was a requirement not added to address this?

In a nutshell: The PCP draft already covers this. We don't need to repeat it. If 
this is not true, then it needs to be addressed in the PCP draft.

 From the PCP draft's section 14.1:

    PCP Servers that comply with the Simple Threat Model and do not
    implement a PCP security mechanism described in Section 14.2 MUST
    enforce the constraints described in the paragraph above.

>   * Req13: Question; if destination addresses and ports are not logged, is there
>     sufficient information to determine a UNIQUE mapping necessary for LI
>     purposes?  Put another way, is the mapping a 3-tuple or a 5-tuple?

REQ-1 mandates support for the usual BEHAVE requirements for TCP, UDP, and ICMP. 
These include the requirement that a NAT (CGN or not) adopt so-called 
Endpoint-Independent Mapping behaviour, meaning that there must be a one-to-one 
mapping between an internal source address+port and an external source 
address+port. This would correspond to your "3-tuple" description.

>   * This requirements document should be reviewed by game developers to get their
>     PoV.  As I understand it, they don't do pcp, but more uPnP, ice & stun.
>     Perhaps that's just a timing thing.

Because of REQ-1, a CGN needs to support the usual BEHAVE requirements for TCP, 
UDP, and ICMP. These RFCs, in their time, have been reviewed by game developers. 
Adding PCP only makes game developers' lives easier.

UPnP cannot work with a CGN as it is designed to work on a local link, whereas a 
CGN is often multiple hops away.

> *Minor issues*
>
>   * I understand that traditional telcos might not be the only ones to offer CGN,
>     the definition of a CGN seems strained, particulary as when relates to
>     "administrative entity".  This may be in part due to the expansion of scope
>     of what is trying to be solved.  I have no great suggestion for you here.

I've personally started thinking of a CGN in terms of a "multi-subscriber NAT". 
That's the key distinction. Most requirements relate to the fact that there are 
multiple subscribers competing for the same resources, and we need to ensure 
fairness.

> *Nits*
>
>   * Yes, there is a terminology section, but NAT un-NATing, and ISPs are not
>     properly defined in their first use in the Introduction.

I expanded the first usage of NAT to "Network Address Translator (NAT) <xref 
target="RFC2663"/>".

I changed "regular, un-NATed IPv4 service" to "regular IPv4 service assigning 
public addresses to subscribers".

I expanded the first usage of ISPs to "Internet Service Providers (ISPs)".

>   * In Figure 1 it may be useful to show IP addresses.

How about this?

                                   .
                                   :
                                   |       Internet
                   ............... | ...................
                                   |       ISP network
                   External pool:  |
                   192.0.2.1/26    |
                               ++------++  External realm
                   ........... |  CGN   |...............
                               ++------++  Internal realm
                        10.0.0.1 |    |
                                 |    |
                                 |    |    ISP network
                   ............. | .. | ................
                                 |    |  Customer premises
                      10.0.0.100 |    | 10.0.0.101
                         ++------++  ++------++
                         |  CPE1  |  |  CPE2  |  etc.
                         ++------++  ++------++

                (IP addresses are only for example purposes)

                       Figure 1: CGN network topology

> *Very very very nitty (can largely be ignored)*
>
>   * Something odd going on with your reference to RFC5382 on tools.ietf.orgâ€“ no
>     link.  Check source and maybe check with the IETF tools people.

Nice parser bug! ;)

Simon
-- 
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From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca  Wed Dec 14 07:57:52 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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On 2011-12-14 10:54, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Simon Perreault wrote:
>>>    * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say something
>> about why
>>>      SCTP is NOT on the list.
>>
>> There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP, UDP,
>> and ICMP.
>> There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could debate this. But right now
>> it's just impossible to say "support SCTP" without saying how this is done.
>
> I think Eliot was suggesting something like saying
> "Note that SCTP is not in this list because there is no RFC at this time on
> NAT behavior for SCTP."

Got it, thanks.

Simon
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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Peter accurately described SEP2's intentions re: EXI usage.  We're 
essentially marshaling/un-marshaling an  internal infoset either...

1. direct to XML/text

2. direct to an EXI binary encoding.  Note these nodes never manipulate 
XML text.  This approach is particularly important for resource 
constrained nodes (i.e. memory not available to blow the EXI up into XML).

We tend to look at these as two different encodings, not one as a 
compression of the other.


On 12/13/2011 4:36 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 12/13/11 2:58 PM, Carine Bournez wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:45:19AM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.
>>>
>>> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:
>>>
>>> 1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
>>> EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then decompress
>>> it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we all
>>> know and love.
>>>
>>> 2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, you
>>> never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead it
>>> is always a binary representation.
>> It is not exactly 2 modes. The EXI 1.0 Recommendation only specifies a
>> compressed encoding of an XML Infoset. Applications that include an EXI
>> processor may use different approaches around the encoding/decoding process.
>> So, you can have applications with a (text) XML document as an input
>> (what you describe as #1), and applications that never use a text
>> serialization (your #2).
>>
>>> It seems to me that #1 is similar to gzip, i.e., the textual
>>> representation is encoded using EXI compression, so we'd have this:
>>>
>>>     Content-Type: application/foo+xml
>>>     Content-Encoding: exi
>>>
>>> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>>> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>>> appropriate.
>> The W3C EXI Working Group has decided not to follow the +exi path,
>> since it involved a potentially infinite number of types to register.
>> There could also be conformance issues: an EXI stream not encoded
>> from a text version might not be necessarily serialized as a conformant
>> "foo" after decoding from its EXI form. It needs some specification
>> work for each foo+exi.
>> The generic application/exi content-type is meant to be used for cases
>> where there is no serialization from/to a standard format (then no
>> content-type can be used), as well as for protocols that have no
>> content-encoding capability.
> Thank you for the clarifications.
>
> The example that raised this issue for me was the ZigBee Alliance Smart
> Energy Profile 2.0, which supports both a text serialization of their
> XML format and an EXI representation. Tom Herbst and Paul Duffy can
> describe that use case more accurately than I can, but based on what
> you've said it seems that they would use application/sep+xml and note a
> content encoding of EXI for the second case. However, it is possible
> that (if their transport/transfer protocols do not have a way to note
> the content encoding) they might use application/exi for the second
> case. I'll let Tom and Paul speak to that. Zach Shelby might also have
> opinions in the matter. In any case, I think they have the information
> they need to make the right decision in the ZigBee Alliance (and if not
> they can speak up).
>
> Peter
>


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From: Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>
To: Paul Duffy <paduffy@cisco.com>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:00:12 -0800
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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Also, we are trying to be as http/coap agnostic as possible.


On 12/13/11 2:58 PM, "Paul Duffy" <paduffy@cisco.com> wrote:

>Peter accurately described SEP2's intentions re: EXI usage.  We're
>essentially marshaling/un-marshaling an  internal infoset either...
>
>1. direct to XML/text
>
>2. direct to an EXI binary encoding.  Note these nodes never manipulate
>XML text.  This approach is particularly important for resource
>constrained nodes (i.e. memory not available to blow the EXI up into XML).
>
>We tend to look at these as two different encodings, not one as a
>compression of the other.
>
>
>On 12/13/2011 4:36 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 12/13/11 2:58 PM, Carine Bournez wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:45:19AM -0700, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> I chatted with a few folks about this in Taipei and afterward.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), EXI has two modes:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Straight compression of the text representation of XML (text in,
>>>> EXI-compressed data out). To make use of the data, you then decompress
>>>> it back into the angle-brackety text representation of XML that we all
>>>> know and love.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Direct, binary representation of the XML infoset. In this case, you
>>>> never have the data in a angle-brackety text representation, instead
>>>>it
>>>> is always a binary representation.
>>> It is not exactly 2 modes. The EXI 1.0 Recommendation only specifies a
>>> compressed encoding of an XML Infoset. Applications that include an EXI
>>> processor may use different approaches around the encoding/decoding
>>>process.
>>> So, you can have applications with a (text) XML document as an input
>>> (what you describe as #1), and applications that never use a text
>>> serialization (your #2).
>>>
>>>> It seems to me that #1 is similar to gzip, i.e., the textual
>>>> representation is encoded using EXI compression, so we'd have this:
>>>>
>>>>     Content-Type: application/foo+xml
>>>>     Content-Encoding: exi
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that #2 might not be an encoding of the relevant +xml
>>>> content type, but might be a different content type, so +exi might be
>>>> appropriate.
>>> The W3C EXI Working Group has decided not to follow the +exi path,
>>> since it involved a potentially infinite number of types to register.
>>> There could also be conformance issues: an EXI stream not encoded
>>> from a text version might not be necessarily serialized as a conformant
>>> "foo" after decoding from its EXI form. It needs some specification
>>> work for each foo+exi.
>>> The generic application/exi content-type is meant to be used for cases
>>> where there is no serialization from/to a standard format (then no
>>> content-type can be used), as well as for protocols that have no
>>> content-encoding capability.
>> Thank you for the clarifications.
>>
>> The example that raised this issue for me was the ZigBee Alliance Smart
>> Energy Profile 2.0, which supports both a text serialization of their
>> XML format and an EXI representation. Tom Herbst and Paul Duffy can
>> describe that use case more accurately than I can, but based on what
>> you've said it seems that they would use application/sep+xml and note a
>> content encoding of EXI for the second case. However, it is possible
>> that (if their transport/transfer protocols do not have a way to note
>> the content encoding) they might use application/exi for the second
>> case. I'll let Tom and Paul speak to that. Zach Shelby might also have
>> opinions in the matter. In any case, I think they have the information
>> they need to make the right decision in the ZigBee Alliance (and if not
>> they can speak up).
>>
>> Peter
>>
>


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Dec 14 15:27:52 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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On 12/9/11 12:03 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 12/9/11 11:54 AM, SM wrote:
>> At 09:19 09-12-2011, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>> I would like to initiate WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt. Due
>>> to holiday season the WGLC is going to be a long one and will end on
>>> January 6th. Please send any comments
>>
>> Please consider the comments below as nits.
>>
>> In Section 1:
>>
>>   "Therefore this document deprecates the "X-" convention for most
>>    application protocols and makes specific recommendations about
>>    how to proceed in a world without the distinction between
>>    standard and non-standard parameters."
>>
>> In Section 2, there is a "MUST NOT" for implementers of application
>> protocols.  The "most" (see quoted text) is not taken into
>> consideration.  The authors could get away with a "SHOULD" instead of a
>> "MUST".
> 
> Good point. Thanks for the review!

Aha, in looking at how to change the text I realize there might be a
disconnect.

Section 2 states:

   Implementers of application protocols MUST NOT treat the general
   categories of "standard" and "non-standard" parameters in
   programatically different ways within their applications.

The intent of that text is to say that it's not acceptable in your code
to search for the characters "x" and "-" at the beginning of every HTTP
header (or whatever) and take some programatically different action
based on the mere fact that some parameters start with those two
characters whereas others don't. The handling of any given parameter
needs to be based on the semantics of the parameter, not the mere
presence of "x" and "-" at the start of the name.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
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From mnot@mnot.net  Wed Dec 14 15:40:07 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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To add to that -- I know of one implementation that does this today =
(treats HTTP headers that start with X- fundamentally differently), and =
I need this in there to bash them over the head. Doing so is very =
broken.

Cheers,


On 15/12/2011, at 10:27 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 12/9/11 12:03 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> On 12/9/11 11:54 AM, SM wrote:
>>> At 09:19 09-12-2011, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>> I would like to initiate WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt. =
Due
>>>> to holiday season the WGLC is going to be a long one and will end =
on
>>>> January 6th. Please send any comments
>>>=20
>>> Please consider the comments below as nits.
>>>=20
>>> In Section 1:
>>>=20
>>>  "Therefore this document deprecates the "X-" convention for most
>>>   application protocols and makes specific recommendations about
>>>   how to proceed in a world without the distinction between
>>>   standard and non-standard parameters."
>>>=20
>>> In Section 2, there is a "MUST NOT" for implementers of application
>>> protocols.  The "most" (see quoted text) is not taken into
>>> consideration.  The authors could get away with a "SHOULD" instead =
of a
>>> "MUST".
>>=20
>> Good point. Thanks for the review!
>=20
> Aha, in looking at how to change the text I realize there might be a
> disconnect.
>=20
> Section 2 states:
>=20
>   Implementers of application protocols MUST NOT treat the general
>   categories of "standard" and "non-standard" parameters in
>   programatically different ways within their applications.
>=20
> The intent of that text is to say that it's not acceptable in your =
code
> to search for the characters "x" and "-" at the beginning of every =
HTTP
> header (or whatever) and take some programatically different action
> based on the mere fact that some parameters start with those two
> characters whereas others don't. The handling of any given parameter
> needs to be based on the semantics of the parameter, not the mere
> presence of "x" and "-" at the start of the name.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> --=20
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

--
Mark Nottingham
http://www.mnot.net/





From sm@resistor.net  Wed Dec 14 16:24:51 2011
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To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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Hi Peter,
At 15:27 14-12-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>Aha, in looking at how to change the text I realize there might be a
>disconnect.
>
>Section 2 states:
>
>    Implementers of application protocols MUST NOT treat the general
>    categories of "standard" and "non-standard" parameters in
>    programatically different ways within their applications.
>
>The intent of that text is to say that it's not acceptable in your code
>to search for the characters "x" and "-" at the beginning of every HTTP
>header (or whatever) and take some programatically different action
>based on the mere fact that some parameters start with those two
>characters whereas others don't. The handling of any given parameter
>needs to be based on the semantics of the parameter, not the mere
>presence of "x" and "-" at the start of the name.

The "most" in "deprecates the "X-" convention for most application" 
(Section 1) could be dropped.  It would then match the intent.

Regards,
-sm 


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Dec 14 17:38:04 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WGLC on draft-ietf-appsawg-xdash-02.txt
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On 12/14/11 5:23 PM, SM wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> At 15:27 14-12-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> Aha, in looking at how to change the text I realize there might be a
>> disconnect.
>>
>> Section 2 states:
>>
>>    Implementers of application protocols MUST NOT treat the general
>>    categories of "standard" and "non-standard" parameters in
>>    programatically different ways within their applications.
>>
>> The intent of that text is to say that it's not acceptable in your code
>> to search for the characters "x" and "-" at the beginning of every HTTP
>> header (or whatever) and take some programatically different action
>> based on the mere fact that some parameters start with those two
>> characters whereas others don't. The handling of any given parameter
>> needs to be based on the semantics of the parameter, not the mere
>> presence of "x" and "-" at the start of the name.
> 
> The "most" in "deprecates the "X-" convention for most application"
> (Section 1) could be dropped.  It would then match the intent.

Yes, that's a possibility, too.

I hesitate to be too strict, because there *might* be application
protocols that have limited registries. But those are covered by other
escape clauses, so I think it would be fine to remove "most".

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Simon,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below.

Eliot

On 12/14/11 4:22 PM, Simon Perreault wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate that into text. RFC6269
> appears clear to me. Do you have an example of text you would like to
> see?

Don't end with this, but you can start with this.  Because subscribers
do not receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade NATs introduce
substantial limitations in communications between subscriber that were
not previously there .  In particular, it is considerably more involved
to establish proxy functionality at the subscriber border.  Some
applications may require substantial enhancements, while some may not
function at all in such an environment.  Please see RFC 6269 for details.
>
>>   * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say
>> something about why
>>     SCTP is NOT on the list.
>
> There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP,
> UDP, and ICMP. There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could
> debate this. But right now it's just impossible to say "support SCTP"
> without saying how this is done.

Dave addressed this.  What about DCCP and RFC 5596?  My main point is
that you explain your logic as you did above.  And...
>
>>     Moreover, your logic in this requirement to me
>>     doesn't hold.  There is a substantial difference between a NAT
>> within an
>>     administrative domain that can be managed by the subscriber, and
>> one that
>>     realistically cannot be.  Therefore, the requirements upon CGNs
>> should be
>>     *stronger*.  Of course this should be balanced by other
>> considerations, such
>>     as keeping the Internet growing, but the logic needs to be
>> exposed.  For
>>     instance, it may not be possible to safeguard certain IPSEC
>> deployments.
>
> Each of the requirements in our draft is imposed on CGNs but not on
> other NATs, while other NAT-generic requirements that are found in
> existing RFCs must still be obeyed by CGNs. To me it is clear that
> CGNs have a stricter set of requirements to fulfill.

That's the point of your draft, I presume, and yet I'm not sure you go
far enough.  My point is that, as you point out, the administrative
nature of NAT has changed.  The end system cannot simply upgrade a NAT
to new proxy functionality.  Therefore I would argue that justification
for NOT requiring functionality is needed.  Therefore, where you say, "
Support for additional transport protocols is OPTIONAL", maybe what you
should say is that " Support for additional transport protocols is
OPTIONAL until such time as their behavior through NATs is
standardized."  That also has the benefit of giving longer life to your
document.

>
>>   * Req10: Â§14.1.1 of draft-ietf-pcp-base-16 states that failure to
>> segment of
>>     traffic opens attacks.  Why was a requirement not added to
>> address this?
>
> In a nutshell: The PCP draft already covers this. We don't need to
> repeat it. If this is not true, then it needs to be addressed in the
> PCP draft.
>
> From the PCP draft's section 14.1:
>
>    PCP Servers that comply with the Simple Threat Model and do not
>    implement a PCP security mechanism described in Section 14.2 MUST
>    enforce the constraints described in the paragraph above.

Ok.  Â§14.1 is a bit difficult to parse. I imagine both this draft and
that will undergo a SAAG review.

>
>>   * Req13: Question; if destination addresses and ports are not
>> logged, is there
>>     sufficient information to determine a UNIQUE mapping necessary
>> for LI
>>     purposes?  Put another way, is the mapping a 3-tuple or a 5-tuple?
>
> REQ-1 mandates support for the usual BEHAVE requirements for TCP, UDP,
> and ICMP. These include the requirement that a NAT (CGN or not) adopt
> so-called Endpoint-Independent Mapping behaviour, meaning that there
> must be a one-to-one mapping between an internal source address+port
> and an external source address+port. This would correspond to your
> "3-tuple" description.

Ok, thanks.
>
>>   * This requirements document should be reviewed by game developers
>> to get their
>>     PoV.  As I understand it, they don't do pcp, but more uPnP, ice &
>> stun.
>>     Perhaps that's just a timing thing.
>
> Because of REQ-1, a CGN needs to support the usual BEHAVE requirements
> for TCP, UDP, and ICMP. These RFCs, in their time, have been reviewed
> by game developers. Adding PCP only makes game developers' lives easier.

Probably.  Has anyone asked them for their opinion?  That's what I'm
suggesting.

>
> UPnP cannot work with a CGN as it is designed to work on a local link,
> whereas a CGN is often multiple hops away.

I get that.  Another reason to check with the gamers.

>
>> *Minor issues*
>>
>>   * I understand that traditional telcos might not be the only ones
>> to offer CGN,
>>     the definition of a CGN seems strained, particulary as when
>> relates to
>>     "administrative entity".  This may be in part due to the
>> expansion of scope
>>     of what is trying to be solved.  I have no great suggestion for
>> you here.
>
> I've personally started thinking of a CGN in terms of a
> "multi-subscriber NAT". That's the key distinction. Most requirements
> relate to the fact that there are multiple subscribers competing for
> the same resources, and we need to ensure fairness.

Right.  I'd be careful with the word "fairness", but I get your point.
>
>> *Nits*
>>
>>   * Yes, there is a terminology section, but NAT un-NATing, and ISPs
>> are not
>>     properly defined in their first use in the Introduction.
>
> I expanded the first usage of NAT to "Network Address Translator (NAT)
> <xref target="RFC2663"/>".
>
> I changed "regular, un-NATed IPv4 service" to "regular IPv4 service
> assigning public addresses to subscribers".
>
> I expanded the first usage of ISPs to "Internet Service Providers
> (ISPs)".
>
>>   * In Figure 1 it may be useful to show IP addresses.
>
> How about this [diagram]?

Ok, and use a legend.
>
>       

--------------040708010900010803060705
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Simon,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for your comments.Â  Please see below.<br>
    <br>
    Eliot<br>
    <br>
    On 12/14/11 4:22 PM, Simon Perreault wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite"><br>
      I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate that into text. RFC6269
      appears clear to me. Do you have an example of text you would like
      to see?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Don't end with this, but you can start with this.Â  Because
    subscribers do not receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade NATs
    introduce substantial limitations in communications between
    subscriber that were not previously there .Â  In particular, it is
    considerably more involved to establish proxy functionality at the
    subscriber border.Â  Some applications may require substantial
    enhancements, while some may not function at all in such an
    environment.Â  Please see RFC 6269 for details.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â  * Req1: Whither SCTP?Â  At the very least
        someone should say something about why
        <br>
        Â Â Â  SCTP is NOT on the list.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP,
      UDP, and ICMP. There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could
      debate this. But right now it's just impossible to say "support
      SCTP" without saying how this is done.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Dave addressed this.Â  What about DCCP and RFC 5596?Â  My main point
    is that you explain your logic as you did above.Â  And...<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â Â Â  Moreover, your logic in this
        requirement to me
        <br>
        Â Â Â  doesn't hold.Â  There is a substantial difference between a
        NAT within an
        <br>
        Â Â Â  administrative domain that can be managed by the subscriber,
        and one that
        <br>
        Â Â Â  realistically cannot be.Â  Therefore, the requirements upon
        CGNs should be
        <br>
        Â Â Â  *stronger*.Â  Of course this should be balanced by other
        considerations, such
        <br>
        Â Â Â  as keeping the Internet growing, but the logic needs to be
        exposed.Â  For
        <br>
        Â Â Â  instance, it may not be possible to safeguard certain IPSEC
        deployments.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Each of the requirements in our draft is imposed on CGNs but not
      on other NATs, while other NAT-generic requirements that are found
      in existing RFCs must still be obeyed by CGNs. To me it is clear
      that CGNs have a stricter set of requirements to fulfill.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    That's the point of your draft, I presume, and yet I'm not sure you
    go far enough.Â  My point is that, as you point out, the
    administrative nature of NAT has changed.Â  The end system cannot
    simply upgrade a NAT to new proxy functionality.Â  Therefore I would
    argue that justification for NOT requiring functionality is needed.Â 
    Therefore, where you say, "
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    Support for additional transport protocols is OPTIONAL", maybe what
    you should say is that "
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    Support for additional transport protocols is OPTIONAL until such
    time as their behavior through NATs is standardized."Â  That also has
    the benefit of giving longer life to your document.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â  * Req10: Â§14.1.1 of
        draft-ietf-pcp-base-16 states that failure to segment of
        <br>
        Â Â Â  traffic opens attacks.Â  Why was a requirement not added to
        address this?
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      In a nutshell: The PCP draft already covers this. We don't need to
      repeat it. If this is not true, then it needs to be addressed in
      the PCP draft.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      From the PCP draft's section 14.1:
      <br>
      <br>
      Â Â  PCP Servers that comply with the Simple Threat Model and do not
      <br>
      Â Â  implement a PCP security mechanism described in Section 14.2
      MUST
      <br>
      Â Â  enforce the constraints described in the paragraph above.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Ok.Â  Â§14.1 is a bit difficult to parse. I imagine both this draft
    and that will undergo a SAAG review.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â  * Req13: Question; if destination
        addresses and ports are not logged, is there
        <br>
        Â Â Â  sufficient information to determine a UNIQUE mapping
        necessary for LI
        <br>
        Â Â Â  purposes?Â  Put another way, is the mapping a 3-tuple or a
        5-tuple?
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      REQ-1 mandates support for the usual BEHAVE requirements for TCP,
      UDP, and ICMP. These include the requirement that a NAT (CGN or
      not) adopt so-called Endpoint-Independent Mapping behaviour,
      meaning that there must be a one-to-one mapping between an
      internal source address+port and an external source address+port.
      This would correspond to your "3-tuple" description.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Ok, thanks.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â  * This requirements document should be
        reviewed by game developers to get their
        <br>
        Â Â Â  PoV.Â  As I understand it, they don't do pcp, but more uPnP,
        ice &amp; stun.
        <br>
        Â Â Â  Perhaps that's just a timing thing.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Because of REQ-1, a CGN needs to support the usual BEHAVE
      requirements for TCP, UDP, and ICMP. These RFCs, in their time,
      have been reviewed by game developers. Adding PCP only makes game
      developers' lives easier.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Probably.Â  Has anyone asked them for their opinion?Â  That's what I'm
    suggesting.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      UPnP cannot work with a CGN as it is designed to work on a local
      link, whereas a CGN is often multiple hops away.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I get that.Â  Another reason to check with the gamers.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">*Minor issues*
        <br>
        <br>
        Â  * I understand that traditional telcos might not be the only
        ones to offer CGN,
        <br>
        Â Â Â  the definition of a CGN seems strained, particulary as when
        relates to
        <br>
        Â Â Â  "administrative entity".Â  This may be in part due to the
        expansion of scope
        <br>
        Â Â Â  of what is trying to be solved.Â  I have no great suggestion
        for you here.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I've personally started thinking of a CGN in terms of a
      "multi-subscriber NAT". That's the key distinction. Most
      requirements relate to the fact that there are multiple
      subscribers competing for the same resources, and we need to
      ensure fairness.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Right.Â  I'd be careful with the word "fairness", but I get your
    point.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">*Nits*
        <br>
        <br>
        Â  * Yes, there is a terminology section, but NAT un-NATing, and
        ISPs are not
        <br>
        Â Â Â  properly defined in their first use in the Introduction.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I expanded the first usage of NAT to "Network Address Translator
      (NAT) &lt;xref target="RFC2663"/&gt;".
      <br>
      <br>
      I changed "regular, un-NATed IPv4 service" to "regular IPv4
      service assigning public addresses to subscribers".
      <br>
      <br>
      I expanded the first usage of ISPs to "Internet Service Providers
      (ISPs)".
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Â  * In Figure 1 it may be useful to show
        IP addresses.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      How about this [diagram]?
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Ok, and use a legend.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4EE8BF1F.9080901@viagenie.ca" type="cite">
      <br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â  <br>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040708010900010803060705--

From yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp  Thu Dec 15 01:20:24 2011
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Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:20:14 +0900
From: Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp>
To: apps-discuss@ietf.org, draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation.all@tools.ietf.org
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
you may receive.  Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-04
Title: The Canonical Link Relation
Reviewer: Yoshiro Yoneya
Review Date: 2011-12-15
IETF Last Call Date: 2011-12-29
IESG Telechat Date: 2012-01-05

Summary:

This draft is almost ready for publication as an Informational RFC but
has a few issues that should be fixed before publication.

Major Issues:

- Section 8: Internationalisation Considerations

  Refering whole [RFC3986] is too broad. As noted in IESG writeups, this
  section should refer to section 8 of [RFC5988].

Minor Issues:

- Section3: The Canonical Link Relation

  Using similar terms such as canonical URI, target URI, and canonical
  target are confusing.  Including reference or definition of these
  terms is preferrable.

Nits:

- Abstract

  "canonical," -> "canonical",

Regards,

-- 
Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp>


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<hat type='shepherd'/>

On 12/15/11 2:20 AM, Yoshiro YONEYA wrote:
> I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for
> this draft (for background on appsdir, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).
> 
> Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments
> you may receive.  Please wait for direction from your document shepherd
> or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
> 
> Document: draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-04
> Title: The Canonical Link Relation
> Reviewer: Yoshiro Yoneya
> Review Date: 2011-12-15
> IETF Last Call Date: 2011-12-29
> IESG Telechat Date: 2012-01-05
> 
> Summary:
> 
> This draft is almost ready for publication as an Informational RFC but
> has a few issues that should be fixed before publication.
> 
> Major Issues:
> 
> - Section 8: Internationalisation Considerations
> 
>   Refering whole [RFC3986] is too broad. As noted in IESG writeups, this
>   section should refer to section 8 of [RFC5988].

Yes, that would be better.

> Minor Issues:
> 
> - Section3: The Canonical Link Relation
> 
>   Using similar terms such as canonical URI, target URI, and canonical
>   target are confusing.  Including reference or definition of these
>   terms is preferrable.

I think it would be clearer to use only the term from RFC 5988 (i.e.,
"target IRI").

Thanks for the review!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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On 2011-12-15 02:04, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate that into text. RFC6269 appears clear
>> to me. Do you have an example of text you would like to see?
>
> Don't end with this, but you can start with this.  Because subscribers do not
> receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade NATs introduce substantial limitations
> in communications between subscriber that were not previously there .  In
> particular, it is considerably more involved to establish proxy functionality at
> the subscriber border.  Some applications may require substantial enhancements,
> while some may not function at all in such an environment.  Please see RFC 6269
> for details.

Tweaked a bit, gives this:

      <t>Because subscribers do not receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade
        NATs introduce substantial limitations in communications between
        subscribers and with the rest of the Internet. In particular, it is
        considerably more involved to establish proxy functionality at the border
        between internal and external realms.  Some applications may require
        substantial enhancements, while some others may not function at all in
        such an environment.  Please see <xref target="RFC6269"/> for
        details.</t>

>>>   * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say something about why
>>>     SCTP is NOT on the list.
>>
>> There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP, UDP, and
>> ICMP. There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could debate this. But right
>> now it's just impossible to say "support SCTP" without saying how this is done.
>
> Dave addressed this.  What about DCCP and RFC 5596?  My main point is that you
> explain your logic as you did above.  And...

You're right, there is an RFC specifying NAT behaviour for DCCP: RFC5597.

On the one hand, as a probable future CGN captive, I'm tempted to say "all CGNs 
MUST support RFC5597!"

On the other, I know it would probably be a frivolous requirement that won't get 
implemented.

*sigh*

Then there is also this: draft-ietf-dccp-udpencap-09

Here's a proposal: add a sub-requirement saying something like "If a CGN forwards 
DCCP packets, then it MUST support [RFC5597]."

Simon
-- 
DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca
NAT64/DNS64 open-source        --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
STUN/TURN server               --> http://numb.viagenie.ca

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Hi Simon,

Just to be clear, I'm not asking you to specifically support any
protocol, but to explain your logic as to what your requirements are. 
If you and the working group decide that it is not practical for one
reason or another to support DCCP (or any other protocol) that's fine. 
Just expose your logic.

Eliot

On 12/15/11 6:57 PM, Simon Perreault wrote:
> On 2011-12-15 02:04, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate that into text. RFC6269
>>> appears clear
>>> to me. Do you have an example of text you would like to see?
>>
>> Don't end with this, but you can start with this.  Because
>> subscribers do not
>> receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade NATs introduce substantial
>> limitations
>> in communications between subscriber that were not previously there
>> .  In
>> particular, it is considerably more involved to establish proxy
>> functionality at
>> the subscriber border.  Some applications may require substantial
>> enhancements,
>> while some may not function at all in such an environment.  Please
>> see RFC 6269
>> for details.
>
> Tweaked a bit, gives this:
>
>      <t>Because subscribers do not receive unique IP addresses,
> Carrier Grade
>        NATs introduce substantial limitations in communications between
>        subscribers and with the rest of the Internet. In particular,
> it is
>        considerably more involved to establish proxy functionality at
> the border
>        between internal and external realms.  Some applications may
> require
>        substantial enhancements, while some others may not function at
> all in
>        such an environment.  Please see <xref target="RFC6269"/> for
>        details.</t>
>
>>>>   * Req1: Whither SCTP?  At the very least someone should say
>>>> something about why
>>>>     SCTP is NOT on the list.
>>>
>>> There are BEHAVE RFCs we can cite regarding NAT behaviour for TCP,
>>> UDP, and
>>> ICMP. There is none for SCTP. If there was one we could debate this.
>>> But right
>>> now it's just impossible to say "support SCTP" without saying how
>>> this is done.
>>
>> Dave addressed this.  What about DCCP and RFC 5596?  My main point is
>> that you
>> explain your logic as you did above.  And...
>
> You're right, there is an RFC specifying NAT behaviour for DCCP: RFC5597.
>
> On the one hand, as a probable future CGN captive, I'm tempted to say
> "all CGNs MUST support RFC5597!"
>
> On the other, I know it would probably be a frivolous requirement that
> won't get implemented.
>
> *sigh*
>
> Then there is also this: draft-ietf-dccp-udpencap-09
>
> Here's a proposal: add a sub-requirement saying something like "If a
> CGN forwards DCCP packets, then it MUST support [RFC5597]."
>
> Simon

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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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Shin,


On 12/16/11 3:26 AM, Shin Miyakawa wrote:
>
> We know CGN is quite evil device which produces many bad problems.
>
> I really would like to every one know that our intension is not to make
> CGN perfect, but just finish it as a quick drug (I do not want to
> say it is relief) as less bad as possible.

I'm not asking you to recount the whole debate.  I was asked to review
the draft as part of the Apps Directorate.  It would be grossly remiss
of me to not say that this won't impact applications.  It will, and in a
substantial way.  Simon's text is acceptable to me.

Regards,

Eliot

From miyakawa@nttv6.jp  Thu Dec 15 23:00:02 2011
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Cc: draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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Eliot,

>> We know CGN is quite evil device which produces many bad problems.
>>
>> I really would like to every one know that our intension is not to make
>> CGN perfect, but just finish it as a quick drug (I do not want to
>> say it is relief) as less bad as possible.
> 
> I'm not asking you to recount the whole debate.  I was asked to review
> the draft as part of the Apps Directorate.  

OK. 

> It would be grossly remiss of me to not say that this won't impact 
> applications.  It will, and in a substantial way.  
> Simon's text is acceptable to me.

I really thank you again for your kind and professional response. 
We really appreciate it.

Best wishes,

Shin

From zach@sensinode.com  Thu Dec 15 23:24:16 2011
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References: <01O8GE5O3B5K00RCTX@mauve.mrochek.com> <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D0611DAC31D@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com> <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im> <20111213215816.GI5525@jay.w3.org> <5EFF390A-3D29-4F15-95BE-C81EFCF6D3D5@mnot.net> <20111214092327.GK5525@jay.w3.org>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Carine Bournez wrote:

> In the schema-informed mode the encoder and the decoder use a schema,
> the EXI 1.0 version specifies XML schema informed grammars. The =
reference
> to that schema is carried in the EXI header. The format of that =
"schemaId"=20
> is not specified for 1.0 processors, it can be whatever is practical =
for=20
> the application. It is *optional* in the EXI header, even when a =
schema is
> in use: applications can also "share" this information out of band.=20
> EXI 1.0 is intentionally liberal on a number of details and defers =
them to=20
> the application level, so that it can support a large range of use =
cases.

Right. It is exactly these kinds of applications that are using schema =
informed mode natively (without intermediate XML), where the =
application/foo+exi media type helps to determine this information out =
of band. When registering foo+exi, the schema information should be =
included in the registration.  In addition to SE2 mentioned so far, also =
our specification on SenML =
[http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07] is requesting an =
application/senml+exi media type. Both of these media types are aimed at =
constrained embedded devices.

Zach

--=20
Zach Shelby, Chief Nerd, Sensinode Ltd.
http://www.sensinode.com
http://zachshelby.org  - My blog "On the Internet of Things"
http://6lowpan.net - My book "6LoWPAN: The Wireless Embedded Internet"
Mobile: +358 40 7796297


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Webfinger
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Walter,

=20

Sorry for the very belated reply.  I=92ve been busy :)

=20

If we immediately jump to an lrdd resource, then we will miss content =
that
would have been provided by host-meta.  Erin wanted the =93resource=94 =
parameter
passed to host-meta so that we get all of the rels there and those =
provided
by lrdd.  That=92s an interesting optimization, though it concerns me =
that we
have to means of accessing the same information.  Two HTTP queries is
certainly less optimal, but then again, most queries to any web site =
results
in many queries that could be optimized.  Why not just return everything
needed to populate a page when performing a =93GET /=94? :)  Can we =
guarantee
that all web servers would implement the optimization?  If they don=92t, =
we
still have to issue two queries.  Personally, I prefer issuing two =
queries
than having conditional statements in the code to accommodate different
behavior.  If we introduce the optimization, I=92d prefer that it be
mandatorily supported.

=20

I like yours idea of asking for specific rels if the client knows what =
it=92s
after.  However, two parameters with the same name is a no-no.  So this
syntax:

=20

   resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&rel=3Dhub&rel=3Dauthor

=20

should be different.  For example, we could introduce this syntax:

=20

=20

   resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&rels=3Dhub,author

=20

This serves to reduce the client-side processing, but increases the
server-side processing.  If we expected a Webfinger query to return =
volumes
of information, I could see value in reducing the information returned =
(as a
benefit to both the client and server).  However, I don=92t expect that =
to be
the case for Webfinger.  I believe distributing the work between the =
client
and server is reasonable and I=92d suggest that we not have the server =
parse
the list of rels in an effort to offload a bit of client-side =
processing.
For the client, I think the extra work is minimal.  For the server, =
it=92s a
minimal amount of sifting multiplied by the number of queries per second =
it
will receive.

=20

Paul

=20

From: Goix Laurent Walter [mailto:laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 3:45 AM
To: Eran Hammer-Lahav; Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'
Subject: R: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

All,

=20

=20

I am not sure that making the host-meta itself act as a proxy for
resource-specific information is the best option.

=20

There are probably different use cases we are thinking of:

- one is related to a server that wishes to interact with (multiple) =
users
on another server.

- another (more unclear to me) is related to a web app directly =
requesting
specific information about a remote user

=20

For the first scenario the local server would probably retrieve the =
remote
host-meta once, cache it and then perform queries for each user using =
the
lrdd link template. Also typically this large amount of users may not be
known simultaneously, so no need for specifying a list of users =
(resources)
in the same query. However I would assume in most cases the =
urls/templates
for the target rels in the single resource descriptor provided by the =
remote
server may often be along the same pattern. This may call for an easier
mechanism for a server to discover/cache not only the lrdd template but =
the
other rels it needs (avatar, profile-page, etc): I can understand this =
may
not always be feasible but at least it would save numerous queries.

=20

In the second one the web app typically would ideally like a single =
request
(json) to get a specific info (1 or more rels) about a specific user
(resource). This calls for some sort of standard API but I'm not sure it =
is
host-meta responsibility to define it. In principle this would be like
standardizing the lrdd endpoint and its parameters ('rel' and
'resource/uri').

=20

Summarizing, what about rethinking the following:

1- standardize (under webfinger) the lrdd endpoint (e.g as
=93.well-known/lrdd[.json]=94) so that we can save one invocation from a =
web app

2- enable/suggest this same lrdd endpoint to provide back rels as =
templates
when no specific resource is requested. This may require the definition =
of
additional variables ({}) to refer to the username only for example (in
general to give more flexibility to the hosting server), whilst at the =
same
time potentially enabling the requesting server to cache these templates =
and
use them to retrieve user information more easily/frequently=20

=20

Probably in both cases the entity performing the invocation knows =
already
which rels is needs, so filters here may be useful although not a must.

=20

=20

Here are some examples:

=20

=D8  GET
/.well-known/lrdd.json?resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&rel=3Dhub&rel=3Daut=
hor
HTTP/1.1

=20

   {

      "subject":"acct:xy@example.com",

=20

      "links":[

        {

          "rel":"hub",

          "href":"http://example.com/xy/hub",

        },

        {

          "rel":"author",

          "href":"http://example.com/xy",

        },

        {

          "rel":"author",

          =
"template":"http://example.com/author?q=3Dacct:xy%40example.com"

        }

      ]

    }

=20

=D8  GET /.well-known/lrdd?rel=3Dhub&rel=3Dauthor HTTP/1.1

=20

<?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8"?>

     <XRD xmlns=3D"http://docs.oasis-open.org/ns/xri/xrd-1.0">

       <Subject>example.com</Subject> <!-- host name here -->

       <Link rel=3D"hub"

             template=3D"http://example.com/{username}/hub
<http://example.com/%7busername%7d/hub> "/> <!-- {username} could be =
defined
to refer to that part only of the URI. Works with acct: URI only=85 -->

       <Link rel=3D"author" template=3D"http://example.com/{username}
<http://example.com/%7busername%7d> "/>

       <Link rel=3D"author" =
template=3D"http://example.com/author?q=3D{uri}
<http://example.com/author?q=3D%7buri%7d> "/>

     </XRD>

=20

Thoughts?

walter

=20

Da: Eran Hammer-Lahav [mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=20
Inviato: marted=EC 22 novembre 2011 20.10
A: Paul E. Jones; Goix Laurent Walter; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'
Oggetto: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

Not exactly. Resource gives all the links for that resource. Rel further
reduces the selection. If you need 10, don=92t use rel, just resource.

=20

EHL

=20

From: Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:55 AM
To: 'Goix Laurent Walter'; Eran Hammer-Lahav; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

Walter,

=20

Including the =91resource=92 parameter could remove the need to further =
process
the templates on the client side and to perform a second query for the
=93lrdd=94 XRD/JRD document.  If the server implementation does not =
support the
=93resource=94 parameter, then the client would have to go about it as =
it would
today.

=20

I like the idea of reducing complexity on the client, but if resource is
optional, then we do not actually reduce the complexity at all.  It does
potentially reduce the time required to fetch the information by one
round-trip to the server.  Is that worth it?  Perhaps.  For most data, =
there
are three queries:

1)      host-meta

2)      LRDD

3)      Actual data sought (e.g., an avatar file)

=20

Introducing =93resource=94 means we do to queries:

1)      host-mesa?resource

2)      Actual data sought (e.g., an avatar file)

=20

That sounds good for a single piece of information.  However, if the =
client
needs to perform 10 queries for 10 links found, then that one additional
step is little savings.  I=92m on the fence over it.

=20

Paul

=20

From: Goix Laurent Walter [mailto:laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 1:42 PM
To: Eran Hammer-Lahav; Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'
Subject: R: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

I guess the discussion is moving from a pure descriptor (which may be =
static
in most cases) to a sort of API, which could have endless parameters.

=20

>From the current/original webfinger description, the host-meta would =
mostly
be static, which implies no API-like, and no parameter, but the lrdd =
link
can typically be dynamic/API-like (to support the template mechanism). =
As
such it could easily accommodate some more parameters as well (in a =
similar
flavor than opensearch), e.g. to request specific link rels if we want.

=20

What would be the scope of supporting uri parameters when accessing
host-meta? Does this intend to save an interaction step?

=20

walter

=20

Da: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] =
Per
conto di Eran Hammer-Lahav
Inviato: marted=EC 22 novembre 2011 19.33
A: Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'
Oggetto: Re: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

Yes, it is no longer a template and must be converted to href.

=20

As for testing support, just check for Subject. Pretty simple to do.

=20

EHL

=20

From: Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:27 AM
To: Eran Hammer-Lahav; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine Cook'
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

A couple more questions on (3):

=20

Why expand templates like this:

        {

          "rel":"author",

=20
"template":"http://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy"

        }

=20

The requesting entity could expand the templates.  I can appreciate the
reasoning for having =93?resource=94 query the LRDD URL and return back =
the
ordered list of links, but why have the server modify the discovered
templates like the one above?  It=92s no longer a template, really.  =
Should we
change =93template=94 to be =93href=94?

=20

If a server does not understand =93?resource=94, it=92s likely to simply =
ignore
it.  But, if a client expects it to be processed, it will cause =
confusion.
Would it be better to introduce /.well-known/host-meta-resource?  If a =
404
is returned, then that is a clear indicator to the client.  Other
suggestions?

=20

Paul

=20

From: Eran Hammer-Lahav [mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:52 PM
To: Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine Cook'
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

1.       Require the server to offer JRD, leave it to the client to pick =
one
flavor.

2.       Host-meta dumps the decision on the applications. You need to
decide if WebFinger is an application or just syntactic sugar on top of
host-meta.

3.       Expand every template in host-meta + level one LRDD links
(excluding templates in LRDD).

=20

EHL

=20

From: Paul E. Jones [mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 7:49 AM
To: Eran Hammer-Lahav; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine Cook'
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

Eran,

=20

Thanks for your feedback.  The editorial, structural, and behavioral =
items
we=92ll addressed (including adhering to host-meta section 4.2).

=20

Let me ask about specific comments:

=20

1)      You want to mandate use of JSON, which we also indicated in the
draft.  However, I would personally prefer to give both XML and JSON =
equal
weight and require both.

2)      You wanted to mandate HTTPS. I=92m not opposed, but host-meta =
does not
mandate it.  Shouldn=92t we Webfinger requirements on what is there?

3)      Regarding =93resource=94 extension: if I query host-meta, there =
may be
any number of templates.  Would we want the server to automatically =
expand
every template it finds?  Or would we only expand the =91lrdd=92 =
template?  (And
how many levels of recursion might be possible?)

=20

Paul

=20

From: Eran Hammer-Lahav [mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:03 AM
To: Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: Joseph Smarr; Gonzalo Salgueiro; Blaine Cook
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

This is a good start. Some feedback and nits:

=20

1.       The protocol flow is incorrect and needs to be adjusted based =
on
the final host-meta specification (RFC 6415). Namely, WebFinger must =
follow
section 4.2 exactly as specified.

2.       WebFinger should focus exclusively on JSON and mandate =
WebFinger
providers to support the JRD format. This does not preclude using XRD =
(XML)
but it will ensure that every compliant WebFinger implementation =
provides
full JSON support which is much more likely to be adopted. This is =
something
we could not do in host-meta due to the late stage it was in, but this =
is
the right time to make the switch (without taking away any existing
functionality).

3.       Are there reasons not to mandate HTTPS?

4.       Section 3 should be a sub-section of the introduction and each
example needs actual JRD code.

=20

In addition, I would very much like to see WebFinger extend the =
host-meta
endpoint by defining a =91resource=92 query parameter. Using the example =
in RFC
6415 section 1.1.1 (example not properly encoded to make it easier to =
read):

=20

> GET /.well-known/host-meta?resource=3Dhttp://example.com/xy HTTP/1.1

=20

   {

      "subject":"http://example.com/xy",

=20

      "properties":{

        "http://spec.example.net/color":"red"

      },

=20

      "links":[

        {

          "rel":"hub",

          "href":"http://example.com/hub",

        },

        {

          "rel":"hub",

          "href":"http://example.com/another/hub",

        },

        {

          "rel":"author",

          "href":"http://example.com/john",

        },

        {

          "rel":"author",

=20
"template":"http://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy"

        }

      ]

    }

=20

The rules for this extension parameter are pretty simple:

=20

1.       JSON is implied. If the server understands =91?resource=92 it =
MUST
return a JRD document.

2.       The subject must be set to the value of the =91resource=92 =
parameter.

3.       If the server does not support that resource (wrong domain, =
etc.)
it must return an empty JRD with the right subject.

4.       The client MUST verify the server supports =91?resource=92 by =
making
sure the response is both JRD and has the requested subject (this will
ensure full compatibility with any other host-meta endpoint).

=20

I would like to see such endpoint extension required for WebFinger so =
that
clients can make a single call and get the full WebFinger result in =
JSON.
This would significantly improve adoption and usability, and adds very
little work to providers.

=20

EHL

=20

=20

From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:10 PM
To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: Joseph Smarr; Gonzalo Salgueiro
Subject: [apps-discuss] Webfinger

=20

Folks,

=20

We just submitted this:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger-00.txt

=20

The tools for Webfinger are now defined, but the procedures need to be
clearer with respect to what most of us understand as =93webfinger=94.  =
This is
just a first stab at making that happen and we hope to progress this to
publish an RFC in the application area.

=20

We welcome any comments you have on the topic, either privately or =
publicly.

=20

Paul

=20


Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle
persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione =
derivante
dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. =
Qualora
abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati =
di
darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua
distruzione, Grazie.=20

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain =
privileged
information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,
printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the =
intended
recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the
sender by return e-mail, Thanks.=20

rispetta l'ambienteRispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =
=E8
necessario.=20

=20


Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle
persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione =
derivante
dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. =
Qualora
abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati =
di
darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua
distruzione, Grazie.=20

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain =
privileged
information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,
printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the =
intended
recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the
sender by return e-mail, Thanks.=20

rispetta l'ambienteRispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =
=E8
necessario.=20

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Walter,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sorry for the very =
belated reply.=A0 I&#8217;ve been busy :)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If we immediately jump =
to an lrdd resource, then we will miss content that would have been =
provided by host-meta.=A0 Erin wanted the &#8220;resource&#8221; =
parameter passed to host-meta so that we get all of the rels there and =
those provided by lrdd.=A0 That&#8217;s an interesting optimization, =
though it concerns me that we have to means of accessing the same =
information.=A0 Two HTTP queries is certainly less optimal, but then =
again, most queries to any web site results in many queries that could =
be optimized.=A0 Why not just return everything needed to populate a =
page when performing a &#8220;GET /&#8221;? :)=A0 Can we guarantee that =
all web servers would implement the optimization?=A0 If they =
don&#8217;t, we still have to issue two queries.=A0 Personally, I prefer =
issuing two queries than having conditional statements in the code to =
accommodate different behavior.=A0 If we introduce the optimization, =
I&#8217;d prefer that it be mandatorily =
supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I like yours idea of =
asking for specific rels if the client knows what it&#8217;s after.=A0 =
However, two parameters with the same name is a no-no.=A0 So this =
syntax:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0 =
resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&amp;rel=3Dhub&amp;rel=3Dauthor<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>should be different.=A0 =
For example, we could introduce this syntax:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0 =
resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&amp;rels=3Dhub,author<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>This serves to reduce =
the client-side processing, but increases the server-side processing.=A0 =
If we expected a Webfinger query to return volumes of information, I =
could see value in reducing the information returned (as a benefit to =
both the client and server).=A0 However, I don&#8217;t expect that to be =
the case for Webfinger.=A0 I believe distributing the work between the =
client and server is reasonable and I&#8217;d suggest that we not have =
the server parse the list of rels in an effort to offload a bit of =
client-side processing.=A0 For the client, I think the extra work is =
minimal.=A0 For the server, it&#8217;s a minimal amount of sifting =
multiplied by the number of queries per second it will =
receive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Goix Laurent Walter [mailto:laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 23, 2011 3:45 AM<br><b>To:</b> Eran =
Hammer-Lahav; Paul E. Jones; apps-discuss@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Joseph =
Smarr'<br><b>Subject:</b> R: [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>All,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I am =
not sure that making the host-meta itself act as a proxy for =
resource-specific information is the best option.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>There =
are probably different use cases we are thinking of:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>- one is related to a server that wishes to =
interact with (multiple) users on another server.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>- another (more unclear to me) is related to a web =
app directly requesting specific information about a remote =
user<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>For the first scenario the local server would =
probably retrieve the remote host-meta once, cache it and then perform =
queries for each user using the lrdd link template. Also typically this =
large amount of users may not be known simultaneously, so no need for =
specifying a list of users (resources) in the same query. However I =
would assume in most cases the urls/templates for the target rels in the =
single resource descriptor provided by the remote server may often be =
along the same pattern. This may call for an easier mechanism for a =
server to discover/cache not only the lrdd template but the other rels =
it needs (avatar, profile-page, etc): I can understand this may not =
always be feasible but at least it would save numerous =
queries.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>In the second one the web app typically would =
ideally like a single request (json) to get a specific info (1 or more =
rels) about a specific user (resource). This calls for some sort of =
standard API but I'm not sure it is host-meta responsibility to define =
it. In principle this would be like standardizing the lrdd endpoint and =
its parameters ('rel' and 'resource/uri').<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Summarizing, what about rethinking the =
following:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>1- standardize (under =
webfinger) the lrdd endpoint (e.g as =
&#8220;.well-known/lrdd[.json]&#8221;) so that we can save one =
invocation from a web app<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>2- =
enable/suggest this same lrdd endpoint to provide back rels as templates =
when no specific resource is requested. This may require the definition =
of additional variables ({}) to refer to the username only for example =
(in general to give more flexibility to the hosting server), whilst at =
the same time potentially enabling the requesting server to cache these =
templates and use them to retrieve user information more =
easily/frequently <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Probably in both cases the entity performing the =
invocation knows already which rels is needs, so filters here may be =
useful although not a must.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Here =
are some examples:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=D8<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>GET =
/.well-known/lrdd.json?resource=3Dacct:xy@example.com&amp;rel=3Dhub&amp;r=
el=3Dauthor HTTP/1.1</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;subject&quot;:&quot;acct:xy@example.com&quot;,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;links&quot;:[</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;hub&quot;,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;href&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/xy/hub">http://example.com/xy/hub</a>&quot;,</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
},</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;author&quot;,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;href&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/xy">http://example.com/xy</a>&quot;,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
},</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;author&quot;,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;template&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/author?q=3Dacct:xy%40example.com">http://examp=
le.com/author?q=3Dacct:xy%40example.com</a>&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo4'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=D8<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>GET /.well-known/lrdd?rel=3Dhub&amp;rel=3Dauthor =
HTTP/1.1</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&lt;?xml version=3D&quot;1.0&quot; =
encoding=3D&quot;UTF-8&quot;?&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;XRD xmlns=3D&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://docs.oasis-open.org/ns/xri/xrd-1.0">http://docs.oasis-open=
.org/ns/xri/xrd-1.0</a>&quot;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;Subject&gt;example.com&lt;/Subject&gt; &lt;!-- host name here =
--&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;Link =
rel=3D&quot;hub&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; template=3D&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/%7busername%7d/hub">http://example.com/{userna=
me}/hub</a>&quot;/&gt; &lt;!-- {username} could be defined to refer to =
that part only of the URI. Works with acct: URI only&#8230; =
--&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;Link =
rel=3D&quot;author&quot; template=3D&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/%7busername%7d">http://example.com/{username}<=
/a>&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;Link =
rel=3D&quot;author&quot; template=3D&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/author?q=3D%7buri%7d">http://example.com/autho=
r?q=3D{uri}</a>&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&lt;/XRD&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>walter<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe =
UI","sans-serif"'>Da:</span></b><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"'> Eran =
Hammer-Lahav <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]">[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=
</a> <br><b>Inviato:</b> marted=EC 22 novembre 2011 20.10<br><b>A:</b> =
Paul E. Jones; Goix Laurent Walter; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'<br><b>Oggetto:</b> RE: [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Not exactly. Resource gives all the links for =
that resource. Rel further reduces the selection. If you need 10, =
don&#8217;t use rel, just resource.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>EHL<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Paul E. Jones <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]">[mailto:paulej@packetizer.=
com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:55 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Goix Laurent Walter'; Eran Hammer-Lahav; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Walter,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Including the =
&#8216;resource&#8217; parameter could remove the need to further =
process the templates on the client side and to perform a second query =
for the &#8220;lrdd&#8221; XRD/JRD document.&nbsp; If the server =
implementation does not support the &#8220;resource&#8221; parameter, =
then the client would have to go about it as it would =
today.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I like the idea of =
reducing complexity on the client, but if resource is optional, then we =
do not actually reduce the complexity at all.&nbsp; It does potentially =
reduce the time required to fetch the information by one round-trip to =
the server.&nbsp; Is that worth it?&nbsp; Perhaps.&nbsp; For most data, =
there are three queries:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>host-meta<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>LRDD<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Actual data =
sought (e.g., an avatar file)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Introducing =
&#8220;resource&#8221; means we do to queries:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l6 level1 =
lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>host-mesa?resource<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l6 level1 =
lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Actual data =
sought (e.g., an avatar file)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>That sounds good for a =
single piece of information.&nbsp; However, if the client needs to =
perform 10 queries for 10 links found, then that one additional step is =
little savings.&nbsp; I&#8217;m on the fence over =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Goix Laurent Walter <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it]">[mailto:laur=
entwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November =
22, 2011 1:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> Eran Hammer-Lahav; Paul E. Jones; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'<br><b>Subject:</b> R: [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I guess the discussion is moving from a pure =
descriptor (which may be static in most cases) to a sort of API, which =
could have endless parameters.</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>From the current/original webfinger description, =
the host-meta would mostly be static, which implies no API-like, and no =
parameter, but the lrdd link can typically be dynamic/API-like (to =
support the template mechanism). As such it could easily accommodate =
some more parameters as well (in a similar flavor than opensearch), e.g. =
to request specific link rels if we want.</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>What would be the scope of supporting uri =
parameters when accessing host-meta? Does this intend to save an =
interaction step?</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>walter</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe =
UI","sans-serif"'>Da:</span></b><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org">apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:apps-discu=
ss-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>Per conto di </b>Eran =
Hammer-Lahav<br><b>Inviato:</b> marted=EC 22 novembre 2011 =
19.33<br><b>A:</b> Paul E. Jones; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'<br><b>Oggetto:</b> Re: [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Yes, it is no longer a =
template and must be converted to href.</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As for testing support, just check for Subject. =
Pretty simple to do.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>EHL</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Paul E. Jones <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]">[mailto:paulej@packetizer.=
com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:27 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Eran Hammer-Lahav; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine =
Cook'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>A couple more questions =
on (3):</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Why expand templates like this:</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;author&quot;,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;template&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy">http=
://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy</a>&quot;</span><=
span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The requesting entity could expand the =
templates.&nbsp; I can appreciate the reasoning for having =
&#8220;?resource&#8221; query the LRDD URL and return back the ordered =
list of links, but why have the server modify the discovered templates =
like the one above?&nbsp; It&#8217;s no longer a template, really.&nbsp; =
Should we change &#8220;template&#8221; to be =
&#8220;href&#8221;?</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If a server does not understand =
&#8220;?resource&#8221;, it&#8217;s likely to simply ignore it.&nbsp; =
But, if a client expects it to be processed, it will cause =
confusion.&nbsp; Would it be better to introduce =
/.well-known/host-meta-resource?&nbsp; If a 404 is returned, then that =
is a clear indicator to the client.&nbsp; Other suggestions?</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Paul</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Eran Hammer-Lahav <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]">[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=
</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 21, 2011 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Paul E. Jones; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine =
Cook'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Require the =
server to offer JRD, leave it to the client to pick one =
flavor.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Host-meta =
dumps the decision on the applications. You need to decide if WebFinger =
is an application or just syntactic sugar on top of =
host-meta.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Expand =
every template in host-meta + level one LRDD links (excluding templates =
in LRDD).</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>EHL</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Paul E. Jones <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paulej@packetizer.com]">[mailto:paulej@packetizer.=
com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 21, 2011 7:49 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Eran Hammer-Lahav; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> 'Joseph Smarr'; 'Gonzalo Salgueiro'; 'Blaine =
Cook'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [apps-discuss] Webfinger</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Eran,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your feedback.&nbsp; The editorial, =
structural, and behavioral items we&#8217;ll addressed (including =
adhering to host-meta section 4.2).</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Let me ask about specific comments:</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo12'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You want to =
mandate use of JSON, which we also indicated in the draft.&nbsp; =
However, I would personally prefer to give both XML and JSON equal =
weight and require both.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 =
lfo12'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You wanted =
to mandate HTTPS. I&#8217;m not opposed, but host-meta does not mandate =
it.&nbsp; Shouldn&#8217;t we Webfinger requirements on what is =
there?</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 =
lfo12'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding =
&#8220;resource&#8221; extension: if I query host-meta, there may be any =
number of templates.&nbsp; Would we want the server to automatically =
expand <i>every</i> template it finds?&nbsp; Or would we only expand the =
&#8216;lrdd&#8217; template?&nbsp; (And how many levels of recursion =
might be possible?)</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Paul</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Eran Hammer-Lahav <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]">[mailto:eran@hueniverse.com]=
</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Paul E. Jones; <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> Joseph Smarr; Gonzalo Salgueiro; Blaine Cook<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[apps-discuss] Webfinger</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>This is a good start. =
Some feedback and nits:</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo14'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The =
protocol flow is incorrect and needs to be adjusted based on the final =
host-meta specification (RFC 6415). Namely, WebFinger must follow =
section 4.2 exactly as specified.</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo14'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>WebFinger =
should focus exclusively on JSON and mandate WebFinger providers to =
support the JRD format. This does not preclude using XRD (XML) but it =
will ensure that every compliant WebFinger implementation provides full =
JSON support which is much more likely to be adopted. This is something =
we could not do in host-meta due to the late stage it was in, but this =
is the right time to make the switch (without taking away any existing =
functionality).</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 =
lfo14'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Are there =
reasons not to mandate HTTPS?</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo14'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Section 3 =
should be a sub-section of the introduction and each example needs =
actual JRD code.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In addition, I would very much like to see =
WebFinger extend the host-meta endpoint by defining a =
&#8216;resource&#8217; query parameter. Using the example in RFC 6415 =
section 1.1.1 (example not properly encoded to make it easier to =
read):</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&gt; GET =
/.well-known/host-meta?resource=3Dhttp://example.com/xy =
HTTP/1.1</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; {</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;subject&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/xy">http://example.com/xy</a>&quot;,</span><sp=
an lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;properties&quot;:{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://spec.example.net/color">http://spec.example.net/color</a>&=
quot;:&quot;red&quot;</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; },</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;links&quot;:[</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;hub&quot;,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;href&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/hub">http://example.com/hub</a>&quot;,</span><=
span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
},</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;hub&quot;,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;href&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/another/hub">http://example.com/another/hub</a=
>&quot;,</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
},</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;author&quot;,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;href&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/john">http://example.com/john</a>&quot;,</span=
><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
},</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;rel&quot;:&quot;author&quot;,</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;template&quot;:&quot;<a =
href=3D"http://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy">http=
://example.com/author?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fxy</a>&quot;</span><=
span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ]</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The rules for this extension parameter are =
pretty simple:</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo16'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>JSON is =
implied. If the server understands &#8216;?resource&#8217; it MUST =
return a JRD document.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo16'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The subject =
must be set to the value of the &#8216;resource&#8217; =
parameter.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo16'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the =
server does not support that resource (wrong domain, etc.) it must =
return an empty JRD with the right subject.</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo16'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DFR><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The client =
MUST verify the server supports &#8216;?resource&#8217; by making sure =
the response is both JRD and has the requested subject (this will ensure =
full compatibility with any other host-meta endpoint).</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I would like to see such endpoint extension =
required for WebFinger so that clients can make a single call and get =
the full WebFinger result in JSON. This would significantly improve =
adoption and usability, and adds very little work to =
providers.</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>EHL</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org">apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:apps-discu=
ss-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul E. =
Jones<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 24, 2011 1:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org">apps-discuss@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:=
</b> Joseph Smarr; Gonzalo Salgueiro<br><b>Subject:</b> [apps-discuss] =
Webfinger</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Folks,<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We just submitted this:<span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger=
-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinge=
r-00.txt</a><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The tools for Webfinger are now defined, but the =
procedures need to be clearer with respect to what most of us understand =
as &#8220;webfinger&#8221;.&nbsp; This is just a first stab at making =
that happen and we hope to progress this to publish an RFC in the =
application area.<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We welcome any comments you have on the topic, either =
privately or publicly.<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D600 =
style=3D'width:6.25in'><tr><td width=3D585 =
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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Fri Dec 16 08:29:36 2011
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On 12/16/11 12:24 AM, Zach Shelby wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Carine Bournez wrote:
> 
>> In the schema-informed mode the encoder and the decoder use a
>> schema, the EXI 1.0 version specifies XML schema informed grammars.
>> The reference to that schema is carried in the EXI header. The
>> format of that "schemaId" is not specified for 1.0 processors, it
>> can be whatever is practical for the application. It is *optional*
>> in the EXI header, even when a schema is in use: applications can
>> also "share" this information out of band. EXI 1.0 is intentionally
>> liberal on a number of details and defers them to the application
>> level, so that it can support a large range of use cases.
> 
> Right. It is exactly these kinds of applications that are using
> schema informed mode natively (without intermediate XML), where the
> application/foo+exi media type helps to determine this information
> out of band. When registering foo+exi, the schema information should
> be included in the registration.  In addition to SE2 mentioned so
> far, also our specification on SenML
> [http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07] is requesting an
> application/senml+exi media type. Both of these media types are aimed
> at constrained embedded devices.

Zach, thanks for clarifying the matter. Perhaps it would make sense for
someone to write a brief I-D describing the rationale for media types
with the +exi suffix and the information required to register such types.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Hello Alexey, Barry, Jiankang and all,

I forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your feedback o=
n this.

In OMA CD, there is a Work Item named Mobile Social Network, and we are try=
ing to reuse one of the I-D in this WG: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jo=
nes-appsawg-webfinger

Here are the questions we hope to get feedback from you:


IETF APPSAWG Working Group is kindly invited to provide feedback on the fol=
lowing points:

1)       consideration and tentative timeframe of [draft-jones-appsawg-webf=
inger] as WG document and future RFC publication;

2)       support for Unicode characters in the "acct:" scheme (URI/IRI);

3)       registration of an ENUM service type for "acct:" scheme;

4)       consideration of other OStatus-related specifications (e.g. Salmon=
, PubSubHubbub, ActivityStreams) as IETF specifications

5)       tentative generic scope, list and roadmap of the Social Networking=
-related activities and output documents within the group;

6)       areas of potential overlap, complementarities or interest with the=
 OMA MobSocNet activities based on the referred information;

If you need any more information, please let me know.

Thanks,
Kind Regards
Kepeng Li
Da: OMA-CD Mailing List [mailto:OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG] Per con=
to di Victoria Gray
Inviato: mercoled=EC 14 dicembre 2011 9.46
A: OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG
Oggetto: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Networking

To: IETF
CC: OMA-CD, OMA-LIAISON, OMA-PLENARY

Dear IETF,

Please find attached a liaison statement from the OMA CD (Content Delivery)=
 WG providing you with information regarding their activity on Mobile Socia=
l Networking.

Best regards,
Victoria

Victoria Gray
BA (Hons) International Business
Document Support Officer
FORApolis
Tel +33 (0)4 92 94 49 23
GSM +33 (0)6 73 99 62 90
victoria.gray@forapolis.com<mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com>

MSN: victoria.gray@forapolis.com<mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com>   Yaho=
o!: bluevicci
Skype: victoria-gray  Google: vics.gray@gmail.com<mailto:vics.gray@gmail.co=
m>

P Please consider the environmental impact before printing this e-mail





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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hello Alexey, Barry, Jiankang and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your =
feedback on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">In OMA CD, there is a Work Item named Mobile Social Network, and =
we are trying to reuse one of the I-D in this WG:
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jon=
es-appsawg-webfinger">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-appsawg-webfin=
ger</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Here are the questions we hope to get feedback from you:<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">IETF APPS</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">AWG Working Gr=
oup is kindly invited to provide feedback on the following points:<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">consideration and tentative timef=
rame of [draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger] as WG document and future RFC publi=
cation;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">2)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">support for Unicode characters in=
 the &#8220;acct:&#8221; scheme (URI/IRI);<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">3)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">registration of an ENUM service t=
ype for &#8220;acct:&#8221; scheme;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">4)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">consideration of other OStatus-re=
lated specifications (e.g. Salmon, PubSubHubbub, ActivityStreams) as IETF s=
pecifications<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">5)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">tentative generic scope, list and=
 roadmap of the Social Networking-related activities and output documents w=
ithin the group;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"AltNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:
Ignore">6)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">areas of potential overlap, compl=
ementarities or interest with the OMA MobSocNet activities based on the ref=
erred information;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">If you need any more information, please let me know.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Kepeng Li</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"F=
R"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"IT" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Da:</span></b><span lan=
g=3D"IT" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;"> OMA-CD Mailing List [mailto:OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANC=
E.ORG]
<b>Per conto di </b>Victoria Gray<br>
<b>Inviato:</b> mercoled=EC 14 dicembre 2011 9.46<br>
<b>A:</b> OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG<br>
<b>Oggetto:</b> Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Net=
working</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">To: IETF</span><span lang=3D"FR=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">CC: OMA-CD, OMA-LIAISON, OMA-PLENA=
RY<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">Dear IETF,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Please find attached a liaison =
statement from the OMA CD (Content Delivery) WG providing you with informat=
ion regarding their activity on Mobile Social Networking.</span><span lang=
=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"FR">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards,</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:
&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Victoria</span></b><span lang=3D=
"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">Victoria Gray</span></b><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">BA (Hons) International Business</span></b><span lang=
=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">D</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">ocument<b> S</b=
>upport<b>
 O</b>fficer</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">FORApolis</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Tel &#43;33 (0)4 92 94 49 23</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">GSM &#43;33 (0)6 73 99 62 90</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com" title=3D"=
mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com">victoria.gray@forapolis.com</a></span><=
span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">MSN:
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com">=
<b><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">victoria.gray@forapolis.com</span></b></a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
 Yahoo!: <b><span style=3D"color:blue">bluevicci</span></b></span><span lan=
g=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Skype:
<b><span style=3D"color:blue">victoria-gray</span></b>&nbsp; Google: <b><sp=
an style=3D"color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:vics.gray@gmail.com">vics.gray@gm=
ail.com</a></span></b></span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><b><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:teal"=
>P</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:blue">
</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:
&quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:teal">Please consider=
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 filename=OMA-LS_938-OMA_CD_WG_to_IETF_Mobile_Social_Network_activity-20111214-A.doc; size=104448;
 creation-date="Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:01 GMT";
 modification-date="Wed, 14 Dec 2011 01:42:56 GMT"
Content-description:  OMA-LS_938-OMA_CD_WG_to_IETF_Mobile_Social_Network_activity-20111214-A.doc

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From miyakawa@nttv6.jp  Thu Dec 15 18:26:53 2011
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To: simon.perreault@viagenie.ca, lear@cisco.com, draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org
From: Shin Miyakawa <miyakawa@nttv6.jp>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Review of draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
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Folks,

First of all, I really thank Simon very much for his quick and
good response, I really think as just Simon wrote.
Also thank you very much Eliot for your valuable comments.

Because Simon has already responded as just I want to tell,
I'd like to make just a short comment about how we think on this draft,
as one of the authors of it.


Eliot:
>> Don't end with this, but you can start with this.  Because subscribers
>> do not receive unique IP addresses, Carrier Grade NATs introduce substantial
>> limitations in communications between subscriber that were not previously there .

We know CGN is quite evil device which produces many bad problems.

I really would like to every one know that our intension is not to make
CGN perfect, but just finish it as a quick drug (I do not want to
say it is relief) as less bad as possible.

CGN is the device belongs to so called "the dark side of the Force", I belive.
And then, just like Master Yoda said,
IT IS NOT STRONGER, But it's QUICKER, EASIER, and MORE SEDUCTIVE.

  (From Quate:Yoda Home Page at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Quote:Yoda
   Luke:"Is the dark side stronger?"
   Yoda:"No,no,no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.")

I strongly believe that Good Jedi must use IPv6,
to protect original goodness of the Internet Protocol whose nature is
based on the End to End transparent communication principle.

Even I am one of the authors of CGN and Shared Address Space 
related drafts which cause many discussions in IETF community, 
but I AM a long time IPv6 guy.

But at the same time, from network operator's point of view
(I am working for one internet network provider), 
many vendors on the Earth have already implemented CGN devices,
and many operators have already installed those into their network
because simply they need to do so for now.

So please let this work completed once quickly as much as possible
to limit (too bad) CGN implementation into the network.

>> In particular, it is considerably more involved to establish proxy
>> functionality at the subscriber border.  
>> Some applications may require substantial enhancements,
>> while some may not function at all in such an environment. 

Then, such a application can not just go through CGN. 
That's fine for me, personally.
Let us move to IPv6 !

# I am sending this E-mail from my environment which is fully 
# v4-v6 dual stack at the commercial grade.

Best wishes,

Shin Miyakawa, Ph.D
Director, Internet Protocol Technology, Innovative IP Architecture Center /
Corporate Planning Department (concurrent position)
NTT Communications Corporation
Gran Park Tower 17F
3-4-1 Shibaura, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108-8118 Japan
E-mail:miyakawa@nttv6.jp / shin.miyakawa@ntt.com / miyakawa@wide.ad.jp
TEL: +81-50-3812-4695, FAX: +81-3-5439-0490
Guest Professor, Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology
Visiting Researcher, SFC Lab. KEIO University
WIDE Project

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Fri Dec 16 11:11:17 2011
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On 12/16/11 9:15 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 12/16/11 12:24 AM, Zach Shelby wrote:
>> On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Carine Bournez wrote:
>>
>>> In the schema-informed mode the encoder and the decoder use a
>>> schema, the EXI 1.0 version specifies XML schema informed grammars.
>>> The reference to that schema is carried in the EXI header. The
>>> format of that "schemaId" is not specified for 1.0 processors, it
>>> can be whatever is practical for the application. It is *optional*
>>> in the EXI header, even when a schema is in use: applications can
>>> also "share" this information out of band. EXI 1.0 is intentionally
>>> liberal on a number of details and defers them to the application
>>> level, so that it can support a large range of use cases.
>>
>> Right. It is exactly these kinds of applications that are using
>> schema informed mode natively (without intermediate XML), where the
>> application/foo+exi media type helps to determine this information
>> out of band. When registering foo+exi, the schema information should
>> be included in the registration.  In addition to SE2 mentioned so
>> far, also our specification on SenML
>> [http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07] is requesting an
>> application/senml+exi media type. Both of these media types are aimed
>> at constrained embedded devices.
> 
> Zach, thanks for clarifying the matter. Perhaps it would make sense for
> someone to write a brief I-D describing the rationale for media types
> with the +exi suffix and the information required to register such types.

BTW, Section 4.2.8 of draft-freed-media-type-regs-01 is apropos:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-freed-media-type-regs/

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, 'Mark Nottingham' <mnot@mnot.net>, 'Thomas Herbst' <therbst@silverspringnet.com>, apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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What might also be interesting to understand is how register +exi would be
different than registering other binary XML formats.  Would we need
+fastinfoset and +BiM and so on?

I'm not opposed to +exi if that helps in decoding the data somehow, but it
doesn't seem like it would add any more value than signaling the media type
and indicating the content encoding.  In fact, the latter might be used to
indicate various modes of EXI, if that was necessary.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:16 AM
> To: Zach Shelby
> Cc: paduffy@cisco.com; Mark Nottingham; Thomas Herbst; apps-
> discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
> 
> On 12/16/11 12:24 AM, Zach Shelby wrote:
> > On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Carine Bournez wrote:
> >
> >> In the schema-informed mode the encoder and the decoder use a schema,
> >> the EXI 1.0 version specifies XML schema informed grammars.
> >> The reference to that schema is carried in the EXI header. The format
> >> of that "schemaId" is not specified for 1.0 processors, it can be
> >> whatever is practical for the application. It is *optional* in the
> >> EXI header, even when a schema is in use: applications can also
> >> "share" this information out of band. EXI 1.0 is intentionally
> >> liberal on a number of details and defers them to the application
> >> level, so that it can support a large range of use cases.
> >
> > Right. It is exactly these kinds of applications that are using schema
> > informed mode natively (without intermediate XML), where the
> > application/foo+exi media type helps to determine this information out
> > of band. When registering foo+exi, the schema information should be
> > included in the registration.  In addition to SE2 mentioned so far,
> > also our specification on SenML
> > [http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07] is requesting an
> > application/senml+exi media type. Both of these media types are aimed
> > at constrained embedded devices.
> 
> Zach, thanks for clarifying the matter. Perhaps it would make sense for
> someone to write a brief I-D describing the rationale for media types
> with the +exi suffix and the information required to register such
> types.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss


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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile	Social Networking
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Kepeng,

=20

While I cannot offer an official answer for the group, I can provide
comments on a few points:

=20

1) I would certainly hope we could complete the work in 2012.  I =
personally
think the next meeting is a bit ambitious, but if folks want to move =
forward
quickly, we could make an effort to do that or perhaps the following
meeting.

2) I definitely want Unicode support.  I have a preference, =
specifically,
for using UTF-8 when transmitting an =93acct=94 URI via a GET request.  =
Is that
acceptable?

3) I don=92t recall this being mentioned before.  You want to map phone
numbers to acct URIs?  That is certainly possible, but has not been a =
focus
of our draft.  I would think we should do that as a separate draft, and =
I=92d
be happy to work on that.

=20

I=92ll defer to others for the rest, as this is probably a series of =
questions
best answered by the group (or at least those leading the architecture =
work
in the app area).

=20

Paul

=20

From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Likepeng
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:34 PM
To: Alexey Melnikov; Barry Leiba; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - =
Mobile
Social Networking

=20

Hello Alexey, Barry, Jiankang and all,

=20

I forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your =
feedback on
this.

=20

In OMA CD, there is a Work Item named Mobile Social Network, and we are
trying to reuse one of the I-D in this WG:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger

=20

Here are the questions we hope to get feedback from you:

=20

IETF APPSAWG Working Group is kindly invited to provide feedback on the
following points:

1)       consideration and tentative timeframe of
[draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger] as WG document and future RFC =
publication;

2)       support for Unicode characters in the =93acct:=94 scheme =
(URI/IRI);

3)       registration of an ENUM service type for =93acct:=94 scheme;

4)       consideration of other OStatus-related specifications (e.g. =
Salmon,
PubSubHubbub, ActivityStreams) as IETF specifications

5)       tentative generic scope, list and roadmap of the Social
Networking-related activities and output documents within the group;

6)       areas of potential overlap, complementarities or interest with =
the
OMA MobSocNet activities based on the referred information;

=20

If you need any more information, please let me know.

=20

Thanks,

Kind Regards

Kepeng Li=20

Da: OMA-CD Mailing List [mailto:OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG] Per
conto di Victoria Gray
Inviato: mercoled=EC 14 dicembre 2011 9.46
A: OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG
Oggetto: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social =
Networking

=20

To: IETF

CC: OMA-CD, OMA-LIAISON, OMA-PLENARY

=20

Dear IETF,

=20

Please find attached a liaison statement from the OMA CD (Content =
Delivery)
WG providing you with information regarding their activity on Mobile =
Social
Networking.

=20

Best regards,

Victoria

=20

Victoria Gray

BA (Hons) International Business

Document Support Officer

FORApolis

Tel +33 (0)4 92 94 49 23

GSM +33 (0)6 73 99 62 90

victoria.gray@forapolis.com

=20

MSN:  <mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com> victoria.gray@forapolis.com
Yahoo!: bluevicci

Skype: victoria-gray  Google: vics.gray@gmail.com

=20

P Please consider the environmental impact before printing this e-mail

=20


=20

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Kepeng,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>While I cannot offer an =
official answer for the group, I can provide comments on a few =
points:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>1) I would certainly =
hope we could complete the work in 2012.=A0 I personally think the next =
meeting is a bit ambitious, but if folks want to move forward quickly, =
we could make an effort to do that or perhaps the following =
meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>2) I definitely want Unicode support.=A0 I have =
a preference, specifically, for using UTF-8 when transmitting an =
&#8220;acct&#8221; URI via a GET request.=A0 Is that =
acceptable?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>3) I don&#8217;t recall this being mentioned =
before.=A0 You want to map phone numbers to acct URIs?=A0 That is =
certainly possible, but has not been a focus of our draft.=A0 I would =
think we should do that as a separate draft, and I&#8217;d be happy to =
work on that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ll defer to =
others for the rest, as this is probably a series of questions best =
answered by the group (or at least those leading the architecture work =
in the app area).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Likepeng<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2011 =
8:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Alexey Melnikov; Barry Leiba; =
apps-discuss@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [apps-discuss] FW: Liason =
statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social =
Networking<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Hello=
 Alexey, Barry, Jiankang and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>I =
forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your feedback =
on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>In =
OMA CD, there is a Work Item named Mobile Social Network, and we are =
trying to reuse one of the I-D in this WG: </span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger">http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger</a><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Here =
are the questions we hope to get feedback from =
you:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>I=
ETF APPS</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>A=
WG Working Group is kindly invited to provide feedback on the following =
points:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>c=
onsideration and tentative timeframe of [draft-jones-appsawg-webfinger] =
as WG document and future RFC publication;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>s=
upport for Unicode characters in the &#8220;acct:&#8221; scheme =
(URI/IRI);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>r=
egistration of an ENUM service type for &#8220;acct:&#8221; =
scheme;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>c=
onsideration of other OStatus-related specifications (e.g. Salmon, =
PubSubHubbub, ActivityStreams) as IETF =
specifications<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>t=
entative generic scope, list and roadmap of the Social =
Networking-related activities and output documents within the =
group;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DAltNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>a=
reas of potential overlap, complementarities or interest with the OMA =
MobSocNet activities based on the referred information;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>If =
you need any more information, please let me =
know.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Thank=
s,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Kind =
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Kepen=
g Li</span><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe =
UI","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Da:</span></b><span =
lang=3DIT style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe =
UI","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'> OMA-CD Mailing List <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG]">[mailto:OMA-C=
D@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG]</a> <b>Per conto di </b>Victoria =
Gray<br><b>Inviato:</b> mercoled=EC 14 dicembre 2011 9.46<br><b>A:</b> =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILEALLIANCE.ORG">OMA-CD@MAIL.OPENMOBILE=
ALLIANCE.ORG</a><br><b>Oggetto:</b> Liason statement from OMA CD WG to =
IETF - Mobile Social Networking</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>To: IETF</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>CC: OMA-CD, OMA-LIAISON, =
OMA-PLENARY<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Dear IETF,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Please find attached a liaison =
statement from the OMA CD (Content Delivery) WG providing you with =
information regarding their activity on Mobile Social =
Networking.</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-l=
anguage:ZH-CN'>Best regards,</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-l=
anguage:ZH-CN'>Victoria</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>Victoria Gray</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>BA (Hons) International Business</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>D</span></b><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>ocument<b> S</b>upport<b> O</b>fficer</span><span =
lang=3DFR style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>FORApolis</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>Tel +33 (0)4 92 94 49 23</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>GSM +33 (0)6 73 99 62 90</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'><a href=3D"mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com" =
title=3D"mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com">victoria.gray@forapolis.com<=
/a></span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DFR style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>MSN: </span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><a =
href=3D"mailto:victoria.gray@forapolis.com"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>victoria.gray=
@forapolis.com</span></b></a></span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Yahoo!: <b><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>bluevicci</span></b></span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN'>Skype: <b><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>victoria-gray</span></b>&nbsp; Google: <b><span =
style=3D'color:blue'><a =
href=3D"mailto:vics.gray@gmail.com">vics.gray@gmail.com</a></span></b></s=
pan><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blue;mso=
-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:teal;mso-fareast-lan=
guage:ZH-CN'>P</span></b><b><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:blue;m=
so-fareast-language:ZH-CN'> </span></b><b><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial =
Narrow","sans-serif";color:teal;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>Please =
consider&nbsp;the environmental&nbsp;impact before printing this =
e-mail</span></b><span lang=3DFR =
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style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'><o:p></o:p></span></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D600 =
style=3D'width:6.25in'><tr><td width=3D596 =
style=3D'width:447.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-align:justify'><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>=
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style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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To: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
From: SM <sm@resistor.net>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Networking
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At 17:33 15-12-2011, Likepeng wrote:
>I forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your 
>feedback on this.

The charter of the APPSAWG is at 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charters  Social Networking is not 
listed as one of the topics that historically fall within the 
Applications Area.  I suggest that the person responsible for the OMA 
CD Liaison Statement contact the IETF OMA Liaison to discuss about 
the working groups where the work might be in scope.

Regards,
-sm 


From carine@jay.w3.org  Sat Dec 17 02:41:12 2011
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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 05:41:03 -0500
From: Carine Bournez <carine@w3.org>
To: Zach Shelby <zach@sensinode.com>
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References: <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im> <20111213215816.GI5525@jay.w3.org> <5EFF390A-3D29-4F15-95BE-C81EFCF6D3D5@mnot.net> <20111214092327.GK5525@jay.w3.org> <7472087B-86F9-4683-BA74-F70EC98D483C@sensinode.com>
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Cc: paduffy@cisco.com, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Thomas Herbst <therbst@silverspringnet.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 09:24:05AM +0200, Zach Shelby wrote:
> Right. It is exactly these kinds of applications that are using schema informed mode natively (without intermediate XML), where the application/foo+exi media type helps to determine this information out of band. When registering foo+exi, the schema information should be included in the registration.  In addition to SE2 mentioned so far, also our specification on SenML [http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07] is requesting an application/senml+exi media type. Both of these media types are aimed at constrained embedded devices.


It seems that you could use application/foo and the content-encoding: exi
instead of registering a different media type. Is your application using a
protocol that has no content-encoding? or do you mean that you use a 
different schema for the exchange of a foo serialized in EXI than a 
text foo? A quick look at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07 
makes me think it is the latter, for SenML. It does not seem a very nice
way to convey the schema information, SchemaId is meant to serve this 
purpose, not the media type. Since you need to carry other EXI options,
out-of-band or in the EXI header, why not using SchemaId?.


-- 
Carine Bournez -+- W3C Europe


From hannes.tschofenig@nsn.com  Sat Dec 17 06:11:58 2011
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Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Networking
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From: "Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <hannes.tschofenig@nsn.com>
To: "ext SM" <sm@resistor.net>, "Likepeng" <likepeng@huawei.com>
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Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Networking
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Hi SM, Hi Likepeng,=20

The problem is that certain organizations do their work around high
level application concepts. Some of these concepts are contributed by
innovation in the area of marketing. Examples: cloud computing,
machine-to-machine communication, smart grid, etc.=20

Since the IETF follows a different approach for doing their work it is
difficult to map any of these concepts directly to IETF working groups.

If one thinks about Mobile Social Networking then a number of IETF
technologies come to my mind that could be relevant, such as HTTP, TLS,
OAuth.=20

Ciao
Hannes

> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext SM
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:57 AM
> To: Likepeng
> Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to
IETF
> - Mobile Social Networking
>=20
> At 17:33 15-12-2011, Likepeng wrote:
> >I forward you one LS (as attached) from OMA and hope to get your
> >feedback on this.
>=20
> The charter of the APPSAWG is at
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charters  Social Networking is not
> listed as one of the topics that historically fall within the
> Applications Area.  I suggest that the person responsible for the OMA
> CD Liaison Statement contact the IETF OMA Liaison to discuss about
> the working groups where the work might be in scope.
>=20
> Regards,
> -sm
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

From jyee@afilias.info  Sat Dec 17 09:05:41 2011
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for =
this draft (for background on appsdir, please see  =
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate)=
.

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments =
you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd =
or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

Document: draft-jiang-a6-to-historic-00
Title: Moving A6 to Historic Status
Reviewer: Joseph Yee
Review Date: 2011-12-17
IETF Last Call Date: 2011-12-16

Summary:

    This draft is almost ready for publication as an Informational RFC =
but has a few issues that should be fixed before publication.

Major Issues:

    (1) Draft header does not have "Obsolete: 2874"

    I used RFC6393 and RFC6331 as my references.  Both are Informational =
RFC moving other RFCs into Historic.  If this is intentional (say 'only =
to be filled by RFC Editor at certain stage'), please ignore this.


Minor Issues:

  (2) Section 4

  s/should NOT/SHOULD NOT/

  And add RFC2119 to reference section


  (3) Section 4.1  - 'unknown record' (RFC3597)
 =20
  Should make it in reference format --> 'unknown record' [RFC3597] and =
adds it to reference section

Nits:

   (4) Section 1 Introduction - 4th paragraph - typo
  =20
   s/recprds/records/


----

Regards,
Joseph Yee







From zach@sensinode.com  Sat Dec 17 11:34:30 2011
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References: <4EC31F1E.6070304@stpeter.im> <8p86c7d6chvadsku6k5dhct20qkl7uk73l@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <4EC326FE.1010809@stpeter.im> <lu96c7hsl37325nn3184ub4vr88qjgja50@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> <EDB50792-348B-4693-9FDF-04BA091F8BE9@sensinode.com> <4EE78F2F.2070601@stpeter.im> <20111213215816.GI5525@jay.w3.org> <5EFF390A-3D29-4F15-95BE-C81EFCF6D3D5@mnot.net> <20111214092327.GK5525@jay.w3.org> <7472087B-86F9-4683-BA74-F70EC98D483C@sensinode.com> <20111217104103.GP5525@jay.w3.org>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On Dec 17, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Carine Bournez wrote:

> It seems that you could use application/foo and the content-encoding: =
exi
> instead of registering a different media type. Is your application =
using a
> protocol that has no content-encoding?

This is one aspect, these applications are often aimed at CoAP, where =
content-encodings are more difficult.=20

> or do you mean that you use a=20
> different schema for the exchange of a foo serialized in EXI than a=20
> text foo?

Yes, this is entirely possible for some applications as strict schema =
informed mode has some more limitations when it comes to schemas. And =
since in these cases we work directly with EXI, you can't make the =
assumption that there is even an XML text mode foo. There may only be =
for example foo+json and foo+exi.=20

> A quick look at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-senml-07=20
> makes me think it is the latter, for SenML. It does not seem a very =
nice
> way to convey the schema information, SchemaId is meant to serve this=20=

> purpose, not the media type. Since you need to carry other EXI =
options,
> out-of-band or in the EXI header, why not using SchemaId?.

I don't find the SchemaId all that useful. First of all, you need to =
invoke your EXI parser to even get at that. It is more useful to =
immediately look at the content-type to decide which parser to throw a =
representation at. A strictly defined foo+exi registration would tell =
you that nicely.=20

Anyways, I think it is worthwhile to write a short draft on what the =
registration requirements for +exi would be as Peter suggests. I am =
happy to help with that.

Zach

--=20
Zach Shelby, Chief Nerd, Sensinode Ltd.
http://www.sensinode.com
http://zachshelby.org  - My blog "On the Internet of Things"
http://6lowpan.net - My book "6LoWPAN: The Wireless Embedded Internet"
Mobile: +358 40 7796297


From martin.thomson@gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 19:11:45 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] +exi
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On 18 December 2011 06:34, Zach Shelby <zach@sensinode.com> wrote:
> I don't find the SchemaId all that useful. First of all, you need to invo=
ke your EXI parser to even get at that. It is more useful to immediately lo=
ok at the content-type to decide which parser to throw a representation at.=
 A strictly defined foo+exi registration would tell you that nicely.

ISTM that a link relation type for schema would make some sort of
difference.  The JSON schema draft had a "describedby" relation type
that might fit the bill (though "schema" is shorter).

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From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <msk@cloudmark.com>
To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:41:51 -0800
Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF - Mobile Social Networking
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf Of Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:08 AM
> To: ext SM; Likepeng
> Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF -=
 Mobile Social Networking
>=20
> The problem is that certain organizations do their work around high
> level application concepts. Some of these concepts are contributed by
> innovation in the area of marketing. Examples: cloud computing,
> machine-to-machine communication, smart grid, etc.
>=20
> Since the IETF follows a different approach for doing their work it is
> difficult to map any of these concepts directly to IETF working groups.
>=20
> If one thinks about Mobile Social Networking then a number of IETF
> technologies come to my mind that could be relevant, such as HTTP, TLS,
> OAuth.

I am fairly certain that the "Social Networking" part of this either (a) fa=
lls squarely within the Applications Area, or (b) falls clearly outside of =
the IETF altogether.  It depends on which aspect of it we're discussing.

The "Mobile" part is less obvious.  Depending on what we're talking about, =
that can spread across several areas (SEC, RAI and RTG come to mind), or mi=
ght be the realm of the GSMA and OMA.

For the specific details of this request, I suspect APPSAWG was the wrong r=
ecipient.  The specific I-D they named is not currently an APPSAWG item and=
 there's no guarantee it will be, and most of the other topics listed are t=
hings I haven't heard discussed anywhere at IETF yet.

I imagine the OMA Liaison (i.e., me) and the Applications Area ADs would be=
 the right place to start to form a response.  Other ADs might also need to=
 be tapped.  I'll get that ball rolling shortly.

-MSK

From hannes.tschofenig@nsn.com  Sun Dec 18 01:52:26 2011
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From: "Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <hannes.tschofenig@nsn.com>
To: "ext Murray S. Kucherawy" <msk@cloudmark.com>, <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF-Mobile Social Networking
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Hi Murray,=20

I believe the OMA just added the term "mobile" to social networking to
make it appear more relevant to their main constituency, i.e. vendors of
mobile phone equipment and cellular operators. So, I wouldn't give this
too much consideration.

Ciao
Hannes

> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Murray S. Kucherawy
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:42 AM
> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to
> IETF- Mobile Social Networking
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
> > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:08 AM
> > To: ext SM; Likepeng
> > Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to
> IETF - Mobile Social Networking
> >
> > The problem is that certain organizations do their work around high
> > level application concepts. Some of these concepts are contributed
by
> > innovation in the area of marketing. Examples: cloud computing,
> > machine-to-machine communication, smart grid, etc.
> >
> > Since the IETF follows a different approach for doing their work it
> is
> > difficult to map any of these concepts directly to IETF working
> groups.
> >
> > If one thinks about Mobile Social Networking then a number of IETF
> > technologies come to my mind that could be relevant, such as HTTP,
> TLS,
> > OAuth.
>=20
> I am fairly certain that the "Social Networking" part of this either
(a)
> falls squarely within the Applications Area, or (b) falls clearly
> outside of the IETF altogether.  It depends on which aspect of it
we're
> discussing.
>=20
> The "Mobile" part is less obvious.  Depending on what we're talking
> about, that can spread across several areas (SEC, RAI and RTG come to
> mind), or might be the realm of the GSMA and OMA.
>=20
> For the specific details of this request, I suspect APPSAWG was the
> wrong recipient.  The specific I-D they named is not currently an
> APPSAWG item and there's no guarantee it will be, and most of the
other
> topics listed are things I haven't heard discussed anywhere at IETF
yet.
>=20
> I imagine the OMA Liaison (i.e., me) and the Applications Area ADs
> would be the right place to start to form a response.  Other ADs might
> also need to be tapped.  I'll get that ball rolling shortly.
>=20
> -MSK
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

From salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com  Sun Dec 18 11:34:03 2011
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I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for 
this draft
(for background on appsdir, please see 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate).

Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments 
you may receive.
Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before 
posting a new version of the draft.


Document: draft-daboo-webdav-sync-06

Title: Collection Synchronization for WebDAV
Reviewer: Salvatore Loreto
Review Date: 2011-12-18
IESG Telechat Date: 2012-01-05


Summary:
This draft is almost ready for publication as an Informational RFC but 
has a few issues that should be fixed before publication.

Major Issues:
---


Minor Issues:

Abstract:

     expand the WebDAV acronym on the first use.

3.2 DAV:sync-collection Report

    Preconditions:

       (DAV:valid-sync-token): The DAV:sync-token element value MUST be a
       valid token previously returned by the server.

please clarify that the token is collection specific, so it needs to be 
originated
from the same collection.


6.3 DAV:multistatus XML Element

	<!ELEMENT multistatus (DAV:response*, DAV:responsedescription?,
	                          sync-token?)>

remove the DAV: prefix.


Nits:

References:

- draft-ietf-vcarddav-carddav has been published as RFC 6352
- the nits tools also report the following error:
           Downref: Normative reference to an Experimental RFC: RFC 5842


best regards
Salvatore Loreto

-- 
www.sloreto.com




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    <p>
      <br>
      I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer
      for this draft<br>
      (for background on appsdir, please see <a class="ext-link"
href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate"><span
          class="icon">&nbsp;</span>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate</a>).
      <br>
    </p>
    <p>
      Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call
      comments you may receive. <br>
      Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before
      posting a new version of the draft.<br>
    </p>
    <p>
      <br>
      Document: draft-daboo-webdav-sync-06<br>
    </p>
    <p>
      Title: Collection Synchronization for WebDAV<br>
      Reviewer: Salvatore Loreto<br>
      Review Date: 2011-12-18<br>
      IESG Telechat Date: 2012-01-05<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
      Summary:
      <br>
      This draft is almost ready for publication as an Informational RFC
      but
      has a few issues that should be fixed before publication.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Major Issues:<br>
      ---<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
      Minor Issues:<br>
    </p>
    <p>Abstract:<br>
    </p>
    <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; expand the WebDAV acronym on the first use.<br>
      <br>
    </p>
    <p>3.2 DAV:sync-collection Report<br>
    </p>
    <p>
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </p>
    <p>
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </p>
    <pre>   Preconditions:

      (DAV:valid-sync-token): The DAV:sync-token element value MUST be a
      valid token previously returned by the server.</pre>
    <p>please clarify that the token is collection specific, so it needs
      to be originated<br>
      from the same collection.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
      6.3 DAV:multistatus XML Element<br>
    </p>
    <p>
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </p>
    <pre>	   &lt;!ELEMENT multistatus (DAV:response*, DAV:responsedescription?,
	                          sync-token?) &gt;
</pre>
    <p>
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </p>
    <p>remove the DAV: prefix. &nbsp; <br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Nits:<br>
    </p>
    <p>
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </p>
    References:<br>
    <br>
    - draft-ietf-vcarddav-carddav has been published as RFC 6352<br>
    - the nits tools also report the following error:<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Downref: Normative reference to an Experimental RFC: RFC
    5842<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    best regards<br>
    Salvatore Loreto<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sloreto.com">www.sloreto.com</a></pre>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------070808070105070804020507--

From laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it  Mon Dec 19 02:28:55 2011
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From: Goix Laurent Walter <laurentwalter.goix@telecomitalia.it>
To: "Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <hannes.tschofenig@nsn.com>, "ext Murray S. Kucherawy" <msk@cloudmark.com>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:28:44 +0100
Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF-Mobile Social Networking
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Subject: [apps-discuss] R: FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to	IETF-Mobile Social Networking
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Hello all,

I'm glad to see that this triggered a first debate quickly.

>From OMA perspective an end-to-end approach is being considered that intend=
s to reference/profile external specs as much as possible whenever it make =
sense and covers the requirements. The idea is to limit isolation and reuse=
 "popular" specs when applicable, also liaising to discuss possible extensi=
ons that are not necessarily mobile-specific but that could potentially ben=
efit the whole spec.
The OMA spec is also defining some specific behaviors, which are internal t=
o the mobile device, and which does not impact apis/protocols.

That said, wrt IETF, the "mobile" aspect is not the focus as Hannes anticip=
ated. Several IETF specs are mentioned indeed as background information onl=
y. At this stage the appsawg seems to be the "best" group within IETF to ad=
dress some "application-level" SN data formats and protocols. I agree that =
in the large, "Social Networking" covers many protocol layers and features,=
 but this liaison is indeed targeted to get feedback from this specific gro=
up only at first, but of course could be extended upon evident interest.

Wrt Paul's early answers on his draft (although not (yet?) a group's draft)=
, there is truly some intention to map phone numbers to acct: IRI/URIs. I w=
ould be available for working at a separate draft as well.

Walter


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] Pe=
r conto di Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
Inviato: domenica 18 dicembre 2011 10.54
A: ext Murray S. Kucherawy; apps-discuss@ietf.org
Oggetto: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to IETF-Mob=
ile Social Networking

Hi Murray,

I believe the OMA just added the term "mobile" to social networking to
make it appear more relevant to their main constituency, i.e. vendors of
mobile phone equipment and cellular operators. So, I wouldn't give this
too much consideration.

Ciao
Hannes

> -----Original Message-----
> From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Murray S. Kucherawy
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:42 AM
> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to
> IETF- Mobile Social Networking
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-
> bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)
> > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:08 AM
> > To: ext SM; Likepeng
> > Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] FW: Liason statement from OMA CD WG to
> IETF - Mobile Social Networking
> >
> > The problem is that certain organizations do their work around high
> > level application concepts. Some of these concepts are contributed
by
> > innovation in the area of marketing. Examples: cloud computing,
> > machine-to-machine communication, smart grid, etc.
> >
> > Since the IETF follows a different approach for doing their work it
> is
> > difficult to map any of these concepts directly to IETF working
> groups.
> >
> > If one thinks about Mobile Social Networking then a number of IETF
> > technologies come to my mind that could be relevant, such as HTTP,
> TLS,
> > OAuth.
>
> I am fairly certain that the "Social Networking" part of this either
(a)
> falls squarely within the Applications Area, or (b) falls clearly
> outside of the IETF altogether.  It depends on which aspect of it
we're
> discussing.
>
> The "Mobile" part is less obvious.  Depending on what we're talking
> about, that can spread across several areas (SEC, RAI and RTG come to
> mind), or might be the realm of the GSMA and OMA.
>
> For the specific details of this request, I suspect APPSAWG was the
> wrong recipient.  The specific I-D they named is not currently an
> APPSAWG item and there's no guarantee it will be, and most of the
other
> topics listed are things I haven't heard discussed anywhere at IETF
yet.
>
> I imagine the OMA Liaison (i.e., me) and the Applications Area ADs
> would be the right place to start to form a response.  Other ADs might
> also need to be tapped.  I'll get that ball rolling shortly.
>
> -MSK
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

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sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall=
a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb=
iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar=
ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione=
, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged =
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nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r=
ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen=
der by return e-mail, Thanks.


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Subject: [apps-discuss] Fwd: 83rd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling
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FYI. Note especially the BoF deadlines. If you are interested in holding
a BoF, please contact the Apps ADs sooner rather than later.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 83rd IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:07:53 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
CC: irsg@irtf.org

83rd IETF Â– Paris, France
Meeting Dates: March 25-30, 2012
Host: TBD
-----------------------------------------------------------------
IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday afternoon (13:30).

We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs
starting today.  The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related
activities are as follows:

NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change.

- 2011-12-19 (Monday): Working Group and BOF scheduling begins. To
request a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool.
- 2012-01-30 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working
Group meetings at 17:00 PT (UTC -8). To request a Working Group session,
use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool.
- 2012- 02-13 (Monday): Cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area
Directors at 17:00 PT (UTC -8). To request a BOF, please see
instructions on Requesting a BOF.
- 2012-02-16 (Thursday): Cutoff date for Area Directors to approve BOFs
at 17:00 PT (UTC -8).
- 2012-02-23 (Thursday): Preliminary agenda published for comment.
- 2012-02-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working
Group and BOF meetings 17:00 PT (UTC -8).
- 2012-03-02 (Friday): Final agenda to be published.
- 2012-03-14 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT
(UTC -7), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool.
- 2012-03-19 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PT
(UTC -7), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool.
- 2012-04-27 (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by 17:00 PT
(UTC -7), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool.
- 2012-05-16 (Wednesday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date
by 17:00 PT (UTC -7), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool.

Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions

Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using the
"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting all
of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your sessions.

The URL for the tool is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi

Instructions for using the tool are available at:

http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html

Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org.
Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the
message, and include all of the information specified in item (4) of
"Requesting Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body.  (This
document is included below.)

Submitting Session Agendas

For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the
agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible.  Draft
Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, March 14, 2012 by 17:00 PT.
Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, March 19,
2012 at 17:00 PT.  The proposed agenda for a BOF session should be
submitted along with your request for a session.  Please be sure to copy
your Area Director on that message.

Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the
"IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making
your meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the
community before, during, and after an IETF meeting.  If you are a BOF
chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as
other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved.

The URL for the tool is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi

Additional information about this tool is available at:

http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html

Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the
"IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted.

The URL for the "IETF 83 Meeting Materials" Web page is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html

If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on the
"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials
Management Tool."  The same User ID and password will work for both
tools.  If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair,
then you will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials
Management Tool" when your BOF has been approved.  If you require
assistance in using either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please
send a message to:
ietf-action@ietf.org.
===============================================================
For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting
sessions at IETF 83 is presented below:

1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted using
the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting
all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your
sessions.  The URL for the tool is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi

Instructions for using the tool are available at:

http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html

If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, then
please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org.  If you are unable to use
the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to agenda@ietf.org,
with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s).

Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with a
copy to the appropriate Area Director(s).

When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, please
include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line.

2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved the
BOF. The proponents behind a BOF need to contact a relevant Area
Director, preferably well in advance of the BOF approval deadline date.
The AD needs to have the full name of the BOF, its acronym, suggested
names of chairs, an agenda, full description of the BOF and the
information covered in item 4. Please read RFC 5434 for instructions on
how to drive a successful BOF effort. The approval depends on, for
instance, Internet-Drafts and list discussion on the suggested topic.
BOF agenda requests, if approved, will be submitted to the IETF
Secretariat by the ADs.

3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions.  If your
Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must be
approved by an Area Director.  Additional sessions will be assigned,
based on availability, after Monday, February 27, 2012 at 17:00 PT, the
cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session.

4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group or
BOF session will be scheduled:

    a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets:

    b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears:

    c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible:

    d. Expected Attendance:

    e. Special requests:

    f. Number of sessions:

    g. Length of session:
       - 1 hour
       - 1 1/2 hours
       - 2 hours
       - 2 1/2 hours

For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions,
please refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and
Procedures" (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt).
===============================================================
For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors
with their e-mail addresses:

IETF Chair
Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Applications Area (app)
Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>

Internet Area (int)
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>

Operations & Management Area (ops)
Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>

Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai)
Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>

Routing Area (rtg)
Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>

Security Area (sec)
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>

Transport Area (tsv)
Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
David Harrington <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
 ===========================================================
82nd IETF Meeting Attendance Number - TBA

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Subject: [apps-discuss] Apps Area Directorate Report for December 2011
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Hello,

The Applications Area Directorate provides semi-formal reviews of 
Internet-Drafts as a way to improve the quality of IETF 
specifications.  The directorate consists of the Working Group Chairs 
of the Applications Area and recognized experts in the Applications Area.

The name was changed from "Review Team" to "Directorate" because, 
among other things, it will be easier for folks to justify these 
activities to their manager if they're involved in the "Applications 
Area Directorate".  The archive of the mailing list (appsdir) used by 
the directorate is at 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/appsdir/current/maillist.html

All reviews are posted to the apps-discuss mailing list as it may 
help future authors and to encourage open discussion.  Authors of 
drafts sometimes disagree about the issues raised by a 
reviewer.  I'll quote some advice from Barry Leiba, "make sure that 
it's clear how those substantive issues have been addressed, or why 
they don't matter".

The following reviews were performed in December 2011:

    Reviewer             I-D

  Dave Cridland       draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience-04
  S. Moonesamy        draft-ietf-marf-authfailure-report-05
  Larry Masinter      draft-ietf-mile-rfc6045-bis-01
  Jiankang Yao        draft-gregorio-uritemplate-07
  Claudio Allocchio   draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-11
  Tobias Gondrom      draft-ietf-geopriv-policy-uri-04
  Julian Reschke      draft-ietf-mile-rfc6046-bis-03
  Ted Hardie          draft-ietf-geopriv-deref-protocol-04
  Eliot Lear          draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-05
  Yoshiro Yoneya      draft-ohye-canonical-link-relation-04
  Joseph Yee          draft-jiang-a6-to-historic-00
  Salvatore Loreto    draft-daboo-webdav-sync-06

Pending reviews are listed at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/report/1

The Applications Area Directorate currently comprises 33 members, 
including one member currently on leave.  Tobias Gondrom, William 
Mills, Jiankang Yao and Yoshiro Yoneya joined the directorate after IETF 82.

The directorate performed 12 reviews in December.  There were 35 Apps 
reviews in 2010 and 42 in 2011.  The top three reviewers for the year are:

                       Reviews
   S. Moonesamy          4
   Murray S. Kucherawy   3
   Ted Hardie            3

The were reviews of drafts from 22 working groups, 19 of which fall 
outside the Applications Area.  I requested feedback about the 
reviews and I received one response (thanks, Peter Saint-Andre).

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
On behalf of the Applications Area Directorate
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 06:04:53 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] draft-pbryan-zyp-json-pointer progress
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Paul,

just checking: do we have a plan for the I18N issues?

Also, while discussing this on the Jackrabbit mailing list, one 
potential issue was brought up:

If we do not special-case array addressing, a given pointer, such as

  /foo/bar/1

can identify two different things, either foo.bar[1] or foo.bar.["1"].

Of course this is only a problem when looking at a pointer in isolation 
(without knowing the object to apply it to), but I think it's worth 
thinking about.

Best regards, Julian

PS: and yes, the downside of using brackets would be that we need to 
escape more characters.

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 07:41:05 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was:  JSON patch: "test" operation
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Hi there,

in discussions in Apache Jackrabbit space, two more features have been 
mentioned as potentially useful:

1) The ability to send additional data along with the actual patch; such 
as a plain text string describing the change (think "commit" message), 
or user information.

2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.

...feedback appreciated,

Julian

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 07:52:03 2011
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Subject: [apps-discuss] media type for partial JSON updates?
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Hi,

a few days ago, there was an epic thread over on rest-discuss 
(<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/18011>) on the 
use of HTTP PUT for partial updates of JSON-modeled data.

(Of course we all know over here that PUT isn't for partial updates :-)

However, apparently many people currently do this, as it's simply 
convenient to send a subset of the object and have the server just 
update those fields.

Now it's obvious that these kind of requests really should use PATCH, 
because that's what it's for after all. What's missing here is a media 
type describing this, though.

Should we document patch semantics for this use case, and define a 
matching media type?

It might be a light-weight alternative to what 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04> describes. For 
example, taking the example from 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04#appendix-A.5>:

    {
        "baz": "qux",
        "foo": "bar"
    }

    A JSON Patch document:

    [
          { "replace": "/baz", "value": "boo" }
    ]

    The resulting JSON document:

    {
        "baz": "boo",
        "foo": "bar"
    }

...the alternative notation would be...:


    {
        "baz": "boo"
    }

...sent with PATCH and an internet media type such as 
"application/partial-update-json".

Feedback appreciated,

Julian

PS: And yes, this would only allow replacing things; but this might be 
good enough for many use cases. Not defining something for this will 
cause people to stick with PUT, or to use PATCH with an incorrect media 
type, which we should avoid.

From mca@amundsen.com  Thu Dec 29 08:07:39 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] media type for partial JSON updates?
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Julian:


I think there is already an XML format for PATCH, right? (can't seem
to find it right now) It might not bee too much work to spin up a
parallel media type definition using the JSON format.

That document might be proper place to describe a typical PATCH media
type as (improvising here) "a format designed to *modify* an existing
entity rather than replace all or part of an existing entity and/or
introduce the notion of "partial updates" through the description of
the PATCH method.

mca
http://amundsen.com/blog/
http://twitter.com@mamund
http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me




On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:51, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote=
:
> Hi,
>
> a few days ago, there was an epic thread over on rest-discuss
> (<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/18011>) on the =
use
> of HTTP PUT for partial updates of JSON-modeled data.
>
> (Of course we all know over here that PUT isn't for partial updates :-)
>
> However, apparently many people currently do this, as it's simply conveni=
ent
> to send a subset of the object and have the server just update those fiel=
ds.
>
> Now it's obvious that these kind of requests really should use PATCH,
> because that's what it's for after all. What's missing here is a media ty=
pe
> describing this, though.
>
> Should we document patch semantics for this use case, and define a matchi=
ng
> media type?
>
> It might be a light-weight alternative to what
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04> describes. For
> example, taking the example from
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04#appendix-A.5>:
>
> =A0 {
> =A0 =A0 =A0 "baz": "qux",
> =A0 =A0 =A0 "foo": "bar"
> =A0 }
>
> =A0 A JSON Patch document:
>
> =A0 [
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 { "replace": "/baz", "value": "boo" }
> =A0 ]
>
> =A0 The resulting JSON document:
>
> =A0 {
> =A0 =A0 =A0 "baz": "boo",
> =A0 =A0 =A0 "foo": "bar"
> =A0 }
>
> ...the alternative notation would be...:
>
>
> =A0 {
> =A0 =A0 =A0 "baz": "boo"
> =A0 }
>
> ...sent with PATCH and an internet media type such as
> "application/partial-update-json".
>
> Feedback appreciated,
>
> Julian
>
> PS: And yes, this would only allow replacing things; but this might be go=
od
> enough for many use cases. Not defining something for this will cause peo=
ple
> to stick with PUT, or to use PATCH with an incorrect media type, which we
> should avoid.
> _______________________________________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 08:46:10 2011
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Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] media type for partial JSON updates?
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On 2011-12-29 17:07, mike amundsen wrote:
> Julian:
>
>
> I think there is already an XML format for PATCH, right? (can't seem
> to find it right now) It might not bee too much work to spin up a
> parallel media type definition using the JSON format.

Oh, there is already a proposal for a JSON-based patch format as well.

> That document might be proper place to describe a typical PATCH media
> type as (improvising here) "a format designed to *modify* an existing
> entity rather than replace all or part of an existing entity and/or
> introduce the notion of "partial updates" through the description of
> the PATCH method.

Why would you want to describe this as part of a spec for an XML format?

Best regards, Julian

From mca@amundsen.com  Thu Dec 29 08:58:41 2011
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On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:46, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 2011-12-29 17:07, mike amundsen wrote:
>>
>> Julian:
>>
>>
>> I think there is already an XML format for PATCH, right? (can't seem
>> to find it right now) It might not bee too much work to spin up a
>> parallel media type definition using the JSON format.
>
>
> Oh, there is already a proposal for a JSON-based patch format as well.

understood.

>
>
>> That document might be proper place to describe a typical PATCH media
>> type as (improvising here) "a format designed to *modify* an existing
>> entity rather than replace all or part of an existing entity and/or
>> introduce the notion of "partial updates" through the description of
>> the PATCH method.
>
>
> Why would you want to describe this as part of a spec for an XML format?

i do not, my message here was too vague.

1) i assumed you were proposing a new document that discussed PATCH
for partial updates.
2) i meant to say that the document you propose "might be the proper
place.... etc."
3) i assumed your text "define a matching media type ... It might be a
light-weight alternative to what
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04> describes..."
meant you were proposing a NEW media type to register w/ the IANA and
i suggested the XML PATCH (RFC5621, i think) as a possible template
for designing a JSON variant that would be this NEW media type.

>
> Best regards, Julian

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 09:08:49 2011
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On 2011-12-29 17:58, mike amundsen wrote:
> ...
> i do not, my message here was too vague.
>
> 1) i assumed you were proposing a new document that discussed PATCH
> for partial updates.

Oh, sorry.

> 2) i meant to say that the document you propose "might be the proper
> place.... etc."
> 3) i assumed your text "define a matching media type ... It might be a
> light-weight alternative to what
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04>  describes..."
> meant you were proposing a NEW media type to register w/ the IANA and
> i suggested the XML PATCH (RFC5621, i think) as a possible template
> for designing a JSON variant that would be this NEW media type.

Ack; understood.

I think it would be simpler to define it as something that can be 
trivially transformed to the format defined in 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04; in that case we 
wouldn't even need to describe the actual semantics...

Best regards, Julian

From samj@samj.net  Thu Dec 29 09:49:08 2011
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From: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was: JSON patch: "test" operation
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--20cf3040eb328caad404b53eba87
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Julian,

1) The "commit" message sounds like a job for a header, but rather than
define one I'd suggest using a generic one for all such applications =97 I'=
ve
been using an "Attribute:" header for my semantic HTTP work (e.g.
Attribute: title=3D"Picture of man biting dog").

2) For MOVE & COPY I've been using WebDAV methods (sans XML).

Thoughts?

Sam

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>wrot=
e:

> Hi there,
>
> in discussions in Apache Jackrabbit space, two more features have been
> mentioned as potentially useful:
>
> 1) The ability to send additional data along with the actual patch; such
> as a plain text string describing the change (think "commit" message), or
> user information.
>
> 2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.
>
> ...feedback appreciated,
>
> Julian
> ______________________________**_________________
> apps-discuss mailing list
> apps-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/apps-discuss<https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss>
>

--20cf3040eb328caad404b53eba87
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Julian,<div><br></div><div>1) The &quot;commit&quot; message sounds like a =
job for a header, but rather than define one I&#39;d suggest using a generi=
c one for all such applications =97 I&#39;ve been using an &quot;Attribute:=
&quot; header for my semantic HTTP work (e.g. Attribute: title=3D&quot;Pict=
ure of man biting dog&quot;).</div>

<div><br></div><div>2) For MOVE &amp; COPY I&#39;ve been using WebDAV metho=
ds (sans XML).</div><div><br></div><div>Thoughts?</div><div><br></div><div>=
Sam</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:40 P=
M, Julian Reschke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:julian.reschke@gm=
x.de">julian.reschke@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi there,<br>
<br>
in discussions in Apache Jackrabbit space, two more features have been ment=
ioned as potentially useful:<br>
<br>
1) The ability to send additional data along with the actual patch; such as=
 a plain text string describing the change (think &quot;commit&quot; messag=
e), or user information.<br>
<br>
2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.<br>
<br>
...feedback appreciated,<br>
<br>
Julian<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
apps-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:apps-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">apps-discuss@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/apps-discuss</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf3040eb328caad404b53eba87--

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Julian:

are you suggesting a new RFC?

mca
http://amundsen.com/blog/
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On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:08, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote=
:
> On 2011-12-29 17:58, mike amundsen wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> i do not, my message here was too vague.
>>
>> 1) i assumed you were proposing a new document that discussed PATCH
>> for partial updates.
>
>
> Oh, sorry.
>
>
>> 2) i meant to say that the document you propose "might be the proper
>> place.... etc."
>> 3) i assumed your text "define a matching media type ... It might be a
>> light-weight alternative to what
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04> =A0describes...=
"
>> meant you were proposing a NEW media type to register w/ the IANA and
>> i suggested the XML PATCH (RFC5621, i think) as a possible template
>> for designing a JSON variant that would be this NEW media type.
>
>
> Ack; understood.
>
> I think it would be simpler to define it as something that can be trivial=
ly
> transformed to the format defined in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04; in that case we
> wouldn't even need to describe the actual semantics...
>
> Best regards, Julian

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On 2011-12-29 19:57, mike amundsen wrote:
> Julian:
>
> are you suggesting a new RFC?

I think so.


From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Dec 29 13:15:43 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
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On 2011-12-29 18:48, Sam Johnston wrote:
> Julian,
>
> 1) The "commit" message sounds like a job for a header, but rather than
> define one I'd suggest using a generic one for all such applications —
> I've been using an "Attribute:" header for my semantic HTTP work (e.g.
> Attribute: title="Picture of man biting dog").

This might work; but of course that needs to be defined as well...

> 2) For MOVE & COPY I've been using WebDAV methods (sans XML).

Understood. But may not be the right thing for everybody...

From mca@amundsen.com  Thu Dec 29 13:18:16 2011
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i think that's a good idea.

mca
http://amundsen.com/blog/
http://twitter.com@mamund
http://mamund.com/foaf.rdf#me




On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 16:11, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 2011-12-29 19:57, mike amundsen wrote:
>>
>> Julian:
>>
>> are you suggesting a new RFC?
>
>
> I think so.
>

From nico@cryptonector.com  Thu Dec 29 13:31:21 2011
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On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net> wrote:
> 1) The "commit" message sounds like a job for a header, but rather than
> define one I'd suggest using a generic one for all such applications =E2=
=80=94 I've
> been using an "Attribute:" header for my semantic HTTP work (e.g. Attribu=
te:
> title=3D"Picture of man biting dog").

You'll want some well-defined headers for "commit" metadata (e.g., to
list merge parents).

Nico
--

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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 15:04 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:


> just checking: do we have a plan for the I18N issues?


I believe the consensus is that a pointer should be Unicode;
ramifications:

1. If it's a JSON string value, then JSON encoding applies.
2. If it's a URI fragment identifier, then URI percent-encoding applies.

The outstanding issue to address is cases where a member name contains
reference token prefix "/" character(s). In light of this, using some
sort of escape character makes the most sense; which character to use is
the question. U+FFFD was mentioned. Any further thoughts?  


> Also, while discussing this on the Jackrabbit mailing list, one 
> potential issue was brought up:
> 
> If we do not special-case array addressing, a given pointer, such as
> 
>   /foo/bar/1
> 
> can identify two different things, either foo.bar[1] or foo.bar.["1"].


This topic has come up multiple times; it's true that .../1 is ambiguous
until you resolve a pointer against a concrete JSON value. What's not
been obvious to date is how identifying the type of value in the pointer
is of use. I could imagine cases where you would want to create missing
intermediate values while traversing a pointer, at which point .../1 is
problematic as it would imply the creation of a sparse array. If there
is a strong drive to identify types in pointers, I'm definitely
interested in understanding the case further.


> Of course this is only a problem when looking at a pointer in
> isolation 
> (without knowing the object to apply it to), but I think it's worth 
> thinking about.
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 
> PS: and yes, the downside of using brackets would be that we need to 
> escape more characters.


Yes, ouch.

Paul

P.S. I'm planning on publishing new (APPSAWG) drafts for JSON Patch and
JSON Pointer in the next few days, in time for review in the new
year. :-)


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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 15:04 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    just checking: do we have a plan for the I18N issues?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I believe the consensus is that a pointer should be Unicode; ramifications:<BR>
<BR>
1. If it's a JSON string value, then JSON encoding applies.<BR>
2. If it's a URI fragment identifier, then URI percent-encoding applies.<BR>
<BR>
The outstanding issue to address is cases where a member name contains reference token prefix &quot;/&quot; character(s). In light of this, using some sort of escape character makes the most sense; which character to use is the question. U+FFFD was mentioned. Any further thoughts?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    Also, while discussing this on the Jackrabbit mailing list, one <BR>
    potential issue was brought up:<BR>
    <BR>
    If we do not special-case array addressing, a given pointer, such as<BR>
    <BR>
      /foo/bar/1<BR>
    <BR>
    can identify two different things, either foo.bar[1] or foo.bar.[&quot;1&quot;].<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
This topic has come up multiple times; it's true that .../1 is ambiguous until you resolve a pointer against a concrete JSON value. What's not been obvious to date is how identifying the type of value in the pointer is of use. I could imagine cases where you would want to create missing intermediate values while traversing a pointer, at which point .../1 is problematic as it would imply the creation of a sparse array. If there is a strong drive to identify types in pointers, I'm definitely interested in understanding the case further.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    Of course this is only a problem when looking at a pointer in isolation <BR>
    (without knowing the object to apply it to), but I think it's worth <BR>
    thinking about.<BR>
    <BR>
    Best regards, Julian<BR>
    <BR>
    PS: and yes, the downside of using brackets would be that we need to <BR>
    escape more characters.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
Yes, ouch.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
P.S. I'm planning on publishing new (APPSAWG) drafts for JSON Patch and JSON Pointer in the next few days, in time for review in the new year. :-)<BR>
<BR>
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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 16:40 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> in discussions in Apache Jackrabbit space, two more features have
> been 
> mentioned as potentially useful:
> 
> 1) The ability to send additional data along with the actual patch;
> such 
> as a plain text string describing the change (think "commit"
> message), 
> or user information.


I've had a few thoughts here.

First, I think commit messages should probably be out of scope for JSON
Patch specifically. That said, we should allow the ability to build on
the specified format, allowing for extensions, including additional
(more domain-specific) operations.

I'm generally against the idea of using out-of-band metadata such as
header fields in an HTTP request, mostly because it ties metadata to the
transfer protocol rather (what I believe rightly should be tied to the
document).

I'm interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text stating
that if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch object, then
an implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?
 

> 2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.


This is another example of something trivial for the patch
implementation to perform, so I'm inclined to add it to the next draft.

Paul


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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 16:40 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    Hi there,<BR>
    <BR>
    in discussions in Apache Jackrabbit space, two more features have been <BR>
    mentioned as potentially useful:<BR>
    <BR>
    1) The ability to send additional data along with the actual patch; such <BR>
    as a plain text string describing the change (think &quot;commit&quot; message), <BR>
    or user information.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I've had a few thoughts here.<BR>
<BR>
First, I think commit messages should probably be out of scope for JSON Patch specifically. That said, we should allow the ability to build on the specified format, allowing for extensions, including additional (more domain-specific) operations.<BR>
<BR>
I'm generally against the idea of using out-of-band metadata such as header fields in an HTTP request, mostly because it ties metadata to the transfer protocol rather (what I believe rightly should be tied to the document).<BR>
<BR>
I'm interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text stating that if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch object, then an implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?<BR>
 <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
This is another example of something trivial for the patch implementation to perform, so I'm inclined to add it to the next draft.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 18:08 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:

> On 2011-12-29 17:58, mike amundsen wrote:
> > ...
> > i do not, my message here was too vague.
> >
> > 1) i assumed you were proposing a new document that discussed PATCH
> > for partial updates.
> 
> Oh, sorry.
> 
> > 2) i meant to say that the document you propose "might be the proper
> > place.... etc."
> > 3) i assumed your text "define a matching media type ... It might be
> a
> > light-weight alternative to what
> > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04>
> describes..."
> > meant you were proposing a NEW media type to register w/ the IANA
> and
> > i suggested the XML PATCH (RFC5621, i think) as a possible template
> > for designing a JSON variant that would be this NEW media type.
> 
> Ack; understood.
> 
> I think it would be simpler to define it as something that can be 
> trivially transformed to the format defined in 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04; in that case
> we 
> wouldn't even need to describe the actual semantics...


Is this something that just reduces the verbosity of the operations, or
are you talking something probably non-JSON for higher compactness? If
the former, then I'm game to either choose shorter operation names or at
least allow for aliases.

If the latter, what have you got in mind? I'm curious how it might
compare such an approach to merely taking a JSON Patch document (with
possibly shorter op names) and encoding in a binary variant such as
BJSON or UBJSON...

Paul

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On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 18:08 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
    On 2011-12-29 17:58, mike amundsen wrote:<BR>
    &gt; ...<BR>
    &gt; i do not, my message here was too vague.<BR>
    &gt;<BR>
    &gt; 1) i assumed you were proposing a new document that discussed PATCH<BR>
    &gt; for partial updates.<BR>
    <BR>
    Oh, sorry.<BR>
    <BR>
    &gt; 2) i meant to say that the document you propose &quot;might be the proper<BR>
    &gt; place.... etc.&quot;<BR>
    &gt; 3) i assumed your text &quot;define a matching media type ... It might be a<BR>
    &gt; light-weight alternative to what<BR>
    &gt; &lt;<A HREF="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04</A>&gt;  describes...&quot;<BR>
    &gt; meant you were proposing a NEW media type to register w/ the IANA and<BR>
    &gt; i suggested the XML PATCH (RFC5621, i think) as a possible template<BR>
    &gt; for designing a JSON variant that would be this NEW media type.<BR>
    <BR>
    Ack; understood.<BR>
    <BR>
    I think it would be simpler to define it as something that can be <BR>
    trivially transformed to the format defined in <BR>
    <A HREF="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04</A>; in that case we <BR>
    wouldn't even need to describe the actual semantics...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
Is this something that just reduces the verbosity of the operations, or are you talking something probably non-JSON for higher compactness? If the former, then I'm game to either choose shorter operation names or at least allow for aliases.<BR>
<BR>
If the latter, what have you got in mind? I'm curious how it might compare such an approach to merely taking a JSON Patch document (with possibly shorter op names) and encoding in a binary variant such as BJSON or UBJSON...<BR>
<BR>
Paul
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On 2011-12-30 06:11, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 15:04 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:
>
>> just checking: do we have a plan for the I18N issues?
>
> I believe the consensus is that a pointer should be Unicode; ramifications:
>
> 1. If it's a JSON string value, then JSON encoding applies.
> 2. If it's a URI fragment identifier, then URI percent-encoding applies.

+1

> The outstanding issue to address is cases where a member name contains
> reference token prefix "/" character(s). In light of this, using some
> sort of escape character makes the most sense; which character to use is
> the question. U+FFFD was mentioned. Any further thoughts?

Using a fixed replacement works for me. The alternative that was 
mentioned was a control character such as US (0x1f).

>> Also, while discussing this on the Jackrabbit mailing list, one
>> potential issue was brought up:
>>
>> If we do not special-case array addressing, a given pointer, such as
>>
>> /foo/bar/1
>>
>> can identify two different things, either foo.bar[1] or foo.bar.["1"].
>
> This topic has come up multiple times; it's true that .../1 is ambiguous
> until you resolve a pointer against a concrete JSON value. What's not
> been obvious to date is how identifying the type of value in the pointer
> is of use. I could imagine cases where you would want to create missing
> intermediate values while traversing a pointer, at which point .../1 is
> problematic as it would imply the creation of a sparse array. If there
> is a strong drive to identify types in pointers, I'm definitely
> interested in understanding the case further.

I agree with the analysis. Right now I can't provide a use case that 
would require removing the ambiguity, but I have the feeling that this 
will cause pain later on. Sorry for not having something more concrete...

>> Of course this is only a problem when looking at a pointer in isolation
>> (without knowing the object to apply it to), but I think it's worth
>> thinking about.
>>
>> Best regards, Julian
>>
>> PS: and yes, the downside of using brackets would be that we need to
>> escape more characters.
>
> Yes, ouch.
>
> Paul
>
> P.S. I'm planning on publishing new (APPSAWG) drafts for JSON Patch and
> JSON Pointer in the next few days, in time for review in the new year. :-)

Thanks!

Best regards, Julian

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On 2011-12-30 06:36, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> ...
>> I think it would be simpler to define it as something that can be
>> trivially transformed to the format defined in
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04; in that case we
>> wouldn't even need to describe the actual semantics...
>
> Is this something that just reduces the verbosity of the operations, or
> are you talking something probably non-JSON for higher compactness? If
> the former, then I'm game to either choose shorter operation names or at
> least allow for aliases.

I personally don't think yet another format is needed.

But: people are doing this already with PUT (although they should not), 
and it might me good to offer them a way to fix what they do by 
switching PUT to PATCH and application/json to something that actually 
describes the semantics of what they are doing.

> ...

Best regards, Julian

From samj@samj.net  Fri Dec 30 02:10:36 2011
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From: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:09:15 +0100
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was: JSON patch: "test" operation
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--20cf300513921a926e04b54c6e75
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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Paul C. Bryan <paul.bryan@forgerock.com>wr=
ote:

> **
>
> First, I think commit messages should probably be out of scope for JSON
> Patch specifically. That said, we should allow the ability to build on th=
e
> specified format, allowing for extensions, including additional (more
> domain-specific) operations.
>

Maybe so, but saying what you're doing when manipulating an object is often
a good idea.


>  I'm generally against the idea of using out-of-band metadata such as
> header fields in an HTTP request, mostly because it ties metadata to the
> transfer protocol rather (what I believe rightly should be tied to the
> document).
>

The distinction between data and metadata isn't always clear =97 to me a
document detailing manipulations could just as easily be separated from the
description of it (or it could be redundant =97 with the headers reflecting
data contained within the document). It's also not always possible to
define what goes in a document, so if you have metadata (like commit
messages) then I'd argue you should use HTTP's existing metadata channel
rather than an "envelope" like SOAP (or JSON).


> I'm interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text stating tha=
t
> if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch object, then an
> implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?
>

To me this sounds dangerous =97 add versioning and if there's sufficient
demand for extensions then just include them in a future version?

>  2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.
>
> This is another example of something trivial for the patch implementation
> to perform, so I'm inclined to add it to the next draft.
>

This begs the question as to whether PATCH should be creating new
resources; the scope of PATCH ("to modify an existing HTTP resource") is
fairly clear on this IMO. Furthermore, MOVE and COPY verbs are useful for
other applications (e.g. cloud APIs) so promoting them from WebDAV, sans
XML dependency, would likely be useful for other applications.

Sam

--20cf300513921a926e04b54c6e75
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Paul C. Bryan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:paul.bryan@forgerock.com">paul.bryan@forgerock.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<u></u>


 =20
 =20

<div><div class=3D"im"><br></div>
First, I think commit messages should probably be out of scope for JSON Pat=
ch specifically. That said, we should allow the ability to build on the spe=
cified format, allowing for extensions, including additional (more domain-s=
pecific) operations.<br>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe so, but saying what you&#39;re=
 doing when manipulating an object is often a good idea.</div><div>=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>
I&#39;m generally against the idea of using out-of-band metadata such as he=
ader fields in an HTTP request, mostly because it ties metadata to the tran=
sfer protocol rather (what I believe rightly should be tied to the document=
).<br>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The distinction between data and met=
adata isn&#39;t always clear =97 to me a document detailing manipulations c=
ould just as easily be separated from the description of it (or it could be=
 redundant =97 with the headers reflecting data contained within the docume=
nt). It&#39;s also not always possible to define what goes in a document, s=
o if you have metadata (like commit messages) then I&#39;d argue you should=
 use HTTP&#39;s existing metadata channel rather than an &quot;envelope&quo=
t; like SOAP (or JSON).</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
I&#39;m interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text stating t=
hat if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch object, then an =
implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?</div></blockquote><div><br>

</div><div>To me this sounds dangerous =97 add versioning and if there&#39;=
s sufficient demand for extensions then just include them in a future versi=
on?=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote type=3D"CITE">
    2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.</blockquote></div=
>
This is another example of something trivial for the patch implementation t=
o perform, so I&#39;m inclined to add it to the next draft.</div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>This begs the question as to whether PATCH should be=
 creating new resources; the scope of PATCH (&quot;to modify an existing HT=
TP resource&quot;) is fairly clear on this IMO. Furthermore, MOVE and COPY =
verbs are useful for other applications (e.g. cloud APIs) so promoting them=
 from WebDAV, sans XML dependency, would likely be useful for other applica=
tions.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Sam</div><div><br></div></div>

--20cf300513921a926e04b54c6e75--

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Fri Dec 30 02:41:27 2011
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On 2011-12-30 11:09, Sam Johnston wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Paul C. Bryan <paul.bryan@forgerock.com
> <mailto:paul.bryan@forgerock.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     First, I think commit messages should probably be out of scope for
>     JSON Patch specifically. That said, we should allow the ability to
>     build on the specified format, allowing for extensions, including
>     additional (more domain-specific) operations.
>
>
> Maybe so, but saying what you're doing when manipulating an object is
> often a good idea.
>
>     I'm generally against the idea of using out-of-band metadata such as
>     header fields in an HTTP request, mostly because it ties metadata to
>     the transfer protocol rather (what I believe rightly should be tied
>     to the document).
>
>
> The distinction between data and metadata isn't always clear — to me a
> document detailing manipulations could just as easily be separated from
> the description of it (or it could be redundant — with the headers
> reflecting data contained within the document). It's also not always
> possible to define what goes in a document, so if you have metadata
> (like commit messages) then I'd argue you should use HTTP's existing
> metadata channel rather than an "envelope" like SOAP (or JSON).

I think both are valid points of view :-)

As a data point: when I submit a hg patch to Mozilla, I specify the 
commit message in-band. I think that's a very useful thing to have.

>     I'm interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text
>     stating that if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch
>     object, then an implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?
>
>
> To me this sounds dangerous — add versioning and if there's sufficient
> demand for extensions then just include them in a future version?

So yes, we need to state whether the format follows the 
"must-understand" or "must-ignore" pattern. Or allow optional parameters 
(such as a commit message) to be marked as such.

>>     2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.
>     This is another example of something trivial for the patch
>     implementation to perform, so I'm inclined to add it to the next draft.
>
>
> This begs the question as to whether PATCH should be creating new
> resources; the scope of PATCH ("to modify an existing HTTP resource") is

Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource. 
Does a resource which currently doesn't have a retrievable 
representation "exist"?

Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well.

> fairly clear on this IMO. Furthermore, MOVE and COPY verbs are useful
> for other applications (e.g. cloud APIs) so promoting them from WebDAV,
> sans XML dependency, would likely be useful for other applications.

I agree that COPY and MOVE are good things if you indeed want to COPY or 
MOVE full resources (or hierarchies). I never understood the resistance 
to COPY and MOVE in the AtomPub community.

That being said: the proposal is for copying JSON object members, not 
HTTP resources; so this is an operation that can't be done with COPY 
unless you have HTTP mappings for each of the JSON object members (and 
even then you wouldn't be able to express them as part of a bigger PATCH 
operation).

Best regards, Julian

From samj@samj.net  Fri Dec 30 03:37:01 2011
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From: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:36:20 +0100
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was: JSON patch: "test" operation
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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>wro=
te:

>
>> The distinction between data and metadata isn't always clear =97 to me a
>> document detailing manipulations could just as easily be separated from
>> the description of it (or it could be redundant =97 with the headers
>> reflecting data contained within the document). It's also not always
>> possible to define what goes in a document, so if you have metadata
>> (like commit messages) then I'd argue you should use HTTP's existing
>> metadata channel rather than an "envelope" like SOAP (or JSON).
>>
>
> I think both are valid points of view :-)
>
> As a data point: when I submit a hg patch to Mozilla, I specify the commi=
t
> message in-band. I think that's a very useful thing to have.


For a patch format, agreed =97 so include it (as optional). In saying "it's
also not always
possible to define what goes in a document" I mean that as a user you may
have needs not considered by the document format authors. For example, you
may want to include a link to an issue tracking system =97 do you extend th=
e
format or use a Link: header? I know what I'd do.

Another more generic example I like to use is a photo hosting site =97 whil=
e
photo formats (e.g. JPEG) now carry metadata channels (e.g. EXIF) I'd
rather be able to glean semantic information (e.g. links, attributes,
categories) from the headers than having to retrieve and parse the resource
for an embedded resource that itself has to be parsed!

Anyway this is getting off-topic =97 in this case I think there's
justification for native in-band support, possibly with link references too=
.


>
>     I'm interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text
>>    stating that if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch
>>    object, then an implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?
>>
>>
>> To me this sounds dangerous =97 add versioning and if there's sufficient
>> demand for extensions then just include them in a future version?
>>
>
> So yes, we need to state whether the format follows the "must-understand"
> or "must-ignore" pattern. Or allow optional parameters (such as a commit
> message) to be marked as such.


IMO a patch format (c.f. diff) should be "must-understand", even if some
parameters are made optional.


>
>     2) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.
>>>
>>    This is another example of something trivial for the patch
>>    implementation to perform, so I'm inclined to add it to the next draf=
t.
>>
>>
>> This begs the question as to whether PATCH should be creating new
>> resources; the scope of PATCH ("to modify an existing HTTP resource") is
>>
>
> Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource. Does
> a resource which currently doesn't have a retrievable representation
> "exist"?
>
> Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well.


That's a contrived interpretation =97 is it something we want to support? I=
'd
rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a resource didn't exist... an empty PUT
would create a resource that could then be PATCHed, no?


>  fairly clear on this IMO. Furthermore, MOVE and COPY verbs are useful
>> for other applications (e.g. cloud APIs) so promoting them from WebDAV,
>> sans XML dependency, would likely be useful for other applications.
>>
>
> I agree that COPY and MOVE are good things if you indeed want to COPY or
> MOVE full resources (or hierarchies). I never understood the resistance t=
o
> COPY and MOVE in the AtomPub community.
>
> That being said: the proposal is for copying JSON object members, not HTT=
P
> resources; so this is an operation that can't be done with COPY unless yo=
u
> have HTTP mappings for each of the JSON object members (and even then you
> wouldn't be able to express them as part of a bigger PATCH operation).
>

Ah, that makes a lot more sense now, though it does sound like a premature
optimisation.

Sam

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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Julian Reschke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de">julian.reschke@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br>The distinction betwee=
n data and metadata isn&#39;t always clear =97 to me a<br>
document detailing manipulations could just as easily be separated from<br>
the description of it (or it could be redundant =97 with the headers<br>
reflecting data contained within the document). It&#39;s also not always<br=
>
possible to define what goes in a document, so if you have metadata<br>
(like commit messages) then I&#39;d argue you should use HTTP&#39;s existin=
g<br>
metadata channel rather than an &quot;envelope&quot; like SOAP (or JSON).<b=
r>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
I think both are valid points of view :-)<br>
<br>
As a data point: when I submit a hg patch to Mozilla, I specify the commit =
message in-band. I think that&#39;s a very useful thing to have.</blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>For a patch format, agreed =97 so include it (as opti=
onal). In saying &quot;it&#39;s also not always</div>

possible to define what goes in a document&quot; I mean that as a user you =
may have needs not considered by the document format authors. For example, =
you may want to include a link to an issue tracking system =97 do you exten=
d the format or use a Link: header? I know what I&#39;d do.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Another mor=
e generic example I like to use is a photo hosting site =97 while photo for=
mats (e.g. JPEG) now carry metadata channels (e.g. EXIF) I&#39;d rather be =
able to glean semantic information (e.g. links, attributes, categories) fro=
m the headers than having to retrieve and parse the resource for an embedde=
d resource that itself has to be parsed!</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Anyway this=
 is getting off-topic =97 in this case I think there&#39;s justification fo=
r native in-band support, possibly with link references too.<br><div>=A0</d=
iv>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =A0 =A0I&#39;m interested in feedback on the possibility that I add text<b=
r>
 =A0 =A0stating that if an operation cannot be determined for a given patch=
<br>
 =A0 =A0object, then an implementation should ignore it. Thoughts?<br>
<br>
<br>
To me this sounds dangerous =97 add versioning and if there&#39;s sufficien=
t<br>
demand for extensions then just include them in a future version?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
So yes, we need to state whether the format follows the &quot;must-understa=
nd&quot; or &quot;must-ignore&quot; pattern. Or allow optional parameters (=
such as a commit message) to be marked as such.</blockquote><div><br></div>

<div>IMO a patch format (c.f. diff) should be &quot;must-understand&quot;, =
even if some parameters are made optional.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =A0 =A02) The ability to *copy* (not *move*) objects around.<br>
</blockquote>
 =A0 =A0This is another example of something trivial for the patch<br>
 =A0 =A0implementation to perform, so I&#39;m inclined to add it to the nex=
t draft.<br>
<br>
<br>
This begs the question as to whether PATCH should be creating new<br>
resources; the scope of PATCH (&quot;to modify an existing HTTP resource&qu=
ot;) is<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource. Does a=
 resource which currently doesn&#39;t have a retrievable representation &qu=
ot;exist&quot;?<br>
<br>
Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well.</block=
quote><div>=A0</div><div>That&#39;s a contrived interpretation =97 is it so=
mething we want to support? I&#39;d rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a r=
esource didn&#39;t exist... an empty PUT would create a resource that could=
 then be PATCHed, no?</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
fairly clear on this IMO. Furthermore, MOVE and COPY verbs are useful<br>
for other applications (e.g. cloud APIs) so promoting them from WebDAV,<br>
sans XML dependency, would likely be useful for other applications.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I agree that COPY and MOVE are good things if you indeed want to COPY or MO=
VE full resources (or hierarchies). I never understood the resistance to CO=
PY and MOVE in the AtomPub community.<br>
<br>
That being said: the proposal is for copying JSON object members, not HTTP =
resources; so this is an operation that can&#39;t be done with COPY unless =
you have HTTP mappings for each of the JSON object members (and even then y=
ou wouldn&#39;t be able to express them as part of a bigger PATCH operation=
).<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ah, that makes a lot more sense now, thoug=
h it does sound like a premature optimisation.</div><div><br></div><div>Sam=
</div><div><br></div></div>

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From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Fri Dec 30 04:12:55 2011
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was: JSON patch: "test" operation
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On 2011-12-30 12:36, Sam Johnston wrote:
 > ...
>     Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource.
>     Does a resource which currently doesn't have a retrievable
>     representation "exist"?
>
>     Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well.
>
> That's a contrived interpretation — is it something we want to support?
> I'd rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a resource didn't exist... an
> empty PUT would create a resource that could then be PATCHed, no?
> ...

It probably belongs into the description of the patch format.

I don't see how requiring an empty PUT makes things better, though.

Best regards, Julian

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From: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:05:39 +0100
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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>wrot=
e:

> On 2011-12-30 12:36, Sam Johnston wrote:
> > ...
>
>>    Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource.
>>    Does a resource which currently doesn't have a retrievable
>>    representation "exist"?
>>
>>    Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well.
>>
>> That's a contrived interpretation =97 is it something we want to support=
?
>> I'd rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a resource didn't exist... an
>> empty PUT would create a resource that could then be PATCHed, no?
>> ...
>>
>
> It probably belongs into the description of the patch format.
>

Agreed.


>  I don't see how requiring an empty PUT makes things better, though.
>

It would prevent misplaced PATCHes from creating new resources, while still
allowing you to build up a resource from scratch with PATCHes. Maybe I'm
being pedantic, but I thought that's what standards groups were for ;)

Sam

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On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Julian Reschke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de">julian.reschke@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div id=3D":16f">On 2011-12-30 12:36, Sam Johnston wrote:<br>
&gt; ...<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
 =A0 =A0Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a resource=
.<br>
 =A0 =A0Does a resource which currently doesn&#39;t have a retrievable<br>
 =A0 =A0representation &quot;exist&quot;?<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping as well=
.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s a contrived interpretation =97 is it something we want to suppor=
t?<br>
I&#39;d rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a resource didn&#39;t exist... =
an<br>
empty PUT would create a resource that could then be PATCHed, no?<br></div>
...<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It probably belongs into the description of the patch format.<br></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

<div id=3D":16f">
I don&#39;t see how requiring an empty PUT makes things better, though.</di=
v></blockquote></div><br><div>It would prevent misplaced PATCHes from creat=
ing new resources, while still allowing you to build up a resource from scr=
atch with PATCHes. Maybe I&#39;m being pedantic, but I thought that&#39;s w=
hat standards groups were for ;)</div>

<div><br></div><div>Sam</div><div><br></div>

--20cf300fb37d8c1f0e04b54fbbfc--

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Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:14:55 +0100
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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To: Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] more feature requests, was: JSON patch: "test" operation
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On 2011-12-30 15:05, Sam Johnston wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de
> <mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de>> wrote:
>
>     On 2011-12-30 12:36, Sam Johnston wrote:
>      > ...
>
>             Of course that depends on how you define the lifetime of a
>         resource.
>             Does a resource which currently doesn't have a retrievable
>             representation "exist"?
>
>             Technically, PATCH can work for creating an initial mapping
>         as well.
>
>         That's a contrived interpretation — is it something we want to
>         support?
>         I'd rather a PATCH throw a 4xx error if a resource didn't
>         exist... an
>         empty PUT would create a resource that could then be PATCHed, no?
>         ...
>
>
>     It probably belongs into the description of the patch format.
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>     I don't see how requiring an empty PUT makes things better, though.
>
>
> It would prevent misplaced PATCHes from creating new resources, while

If you want to do that, you can always add "If-None-Match: *".

> still allowing you to build up a resource from scratch with PATCHes.
> Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I thought that's what standards groups
> were for ;)

:-) As long as being too pedantic doesn't make things more complicated 
than they need to be (I can't recall why we have the prose about 
"existing" resources in the PATCH spec; we definitively discussed this 
use case at some point...)

Best regards, Julian
