From nobody Sat Mar 1 12:44:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F501A0307 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:44:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2YyEVowmmcx for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x234.google.com (mail-pb0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629161A02A1 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rr13so2196930pbb.39 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 12:44:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zhBynRSsOLZn0MiFpXit6VMagaxxuwx0xTGBdMyucO8=; b=rEHpmS/Mg+5ZRKNTaKzWqu9F/ijXOrpihgNn+ddvHuoWObrZDyED5oPvcxu/qMQikk spTvyDICm3QPBbvaYfZEjXWLIvKddzvudcS0qmI6btmDLJIxuZ1D74wZH8ACeNnRK2ds 6gNijJP+uIBVBAhAuGGa/4QQt+Cyh6OVA9YtUpBQcaZ65WgAJff4W3Q7bdgXXy8HPOhF bKocbEhvskc6q9/fGdF7LLniaArdE6Ab4xbBuU3Aj2pLpYEDcV95YOSx1pgpKT/ILZV7 OQwrJHV8uQQcktA9rpOs7heQEBQeC0XHTRd0lsRyKKus9ByfP59oWynutcNSgvgES3+s HCiQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.136.131 with SMTP id qa3mr10779421pab.77.1393706677219; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 12:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:44:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:44:37 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113376906ab58304f3919ff3 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/acfjX-hkUnqOygHnFv7yT46pisM Cc: Kurt Andersen , ned+ietf@mrochek.com, Bill Mills Subject: [apps-discuss] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 20:44:41 -0000 --001a113376906ab58304f3919ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Colleagues, Barry has done his evaluation of this draft and there's one point we'd like to revisit with the WG before we send it on to IETF-wide Last Call and then IESG Evaluation. Both forms of the extension use a timestamp that includes hours:minutes:seconds. Two things we've been asked to either affirm or reconsider here: 1) Is that level of precision necessary? Isn't just the date good enough? 2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possibly introduced by clock synchronization issues? If yes, how bad? My own answers as an implementer are that clock synchronization issues are rare these days (though we can do a "MUST use NTP" to ram the point home), per-second precision is how these things are typically stored in their backing databases, that precision in the protocol is preferable since the supporting data are available anyway, and most things that generate or parse timestamps in mail do dates with times already so the implementation cost is low. That's not to say, of course, that doing a date-only implementation would be expensive, but it is slightly less work to use stuff we already have. Are there any concurring, dissenting, or different opinions? -MSK --001a113376906ab58304f3919ff3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colleagues,

Bar= ry has done his evaluation of this draft and there's one point we'd= like to revisit with the WG before we send it on to IETF-wide Last Call an= d then IESG Evaluation.

Both forms of the extension use a timestamp that includes hours:minutes= :seconds.=A0 Two things we've been asked to either affirm or reconsider= here:

1) Is that level of precision necessary?=A0 Isn't j= ust the date good enough?

2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possi= bly introduced by clock synchronization issues?=A0 If yes, how bad?

=
My own answers as an implementer are that clock synchronization issue= s are rare these days (though we can do a "MUST use NTP" to ram t= he point home), per-second precision is how these things are typically stor= ed in their backing databases, that precision in the protocol is preferable= since the supporting data are available anyway, and most things that gener= ate or parse timestamps in mail do dates with times already so the implemen= tation cost is low.=A0 That's not to say, of course, that doing a date-= only implementation would be expensive, but it is slightly less work to use= stuff we already have.

Are there any concurring, dissenting, or different opinions?
<= br>
-MSK
--001a113376906ab58304f3919ff3-- From nobody Sat Mar 1 16:21:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB5C1A0B39 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:21:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.343 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMTzGAQRtrjJ for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7461A0B38 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71134 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2014 00:21:34 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2014 00:21:34 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5312798f.xn--yuvv84g.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=k/hblYjWPu7pxSEteVT93kO0hnvQbDt9lkcpL3dQMJA=; b=M6Gv5gAFAkvAhQbN6m37/N0NrUiAZNXdR6jubgyFlF8AgwTm7+I55cT69+UxnNuBUZjs0zx+nTWMfUSIduoWoigNt8e2iFeRHDPJGBdeF58yj+7nzmcCOPUmZXJ0j+/LwQSCEW98ZakHs8WQBr7YLL7pHjepiM7lx6uNPwij2cEps3IlSnHYFKkdS4YyA2p8milQCjTMkCqOC2iYmd0SN9A/Sq1Naonq3+TqbB0DZX/phex24J+eX5PLEb4fSKwG DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5312798f.xn--yuvv84g.k1403; bh=k/hblYjWPu7pxSEteVT93kO0hnvQbDt9lkcpL3dQMJA=; b=PkVitpjt85W/MB9exjZt7spQhw5GFsgmfCP7Vcbs/BlOGsql+mbIv+g1t7IA30TMeFBuFU4Kk4AeHuTgA+L0Gdj6J2VgBVcCs9IcLjU69B6tROWBGCZCwTeW5wjCG9EOW1oGylud0vQrJBFgyOkb/Ectw9dlirkVhh1V5GujeQcQbSSHfWFGL6FQFDXyAkh/m8LkCdx+KFBEP2CTo+4UWPezR6kBwBZbAHW8rg+kkFa67zW4/u5UP4kjI5Uu8MJH Date: 2 Mar 2014 00:21:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20140302002113.47534.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/4Y2nnYgn191zgBgZS2zv9J1bTDI Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 00:21:39 -0000 >1) Is that level of precision necessary? Isn't just the date good enough? Anyone who gives the same e-mail address to two different people in the same day deserve what they get. But, ... >2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possibly >introduced by clock synchronization issues? If yes, how bad? If it's just a date, you get pathological issues from time zones. If Bob in Auckland signs up for a Yahoo account when it's 10 AM on the 2nd in New Zealand, but 1 PM on the 1st in California, what date goes into the RRVS field? I can imagine this being an issue if people in Europe or Asia set up a new mail account at a webmail provider in California and then immediately use it to sign up for bank or e-commerce accounts at institutions in Europe or Asia or vice versa. Leave it as is, the time stamps include the time zone, and the issue goes away. R's, John From nobody Sat Mar 1 17:57:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF311A035B for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:57:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HcUQJ7GQGgcO for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC741A032E for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l18so1812305wgh.21 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 17:57:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=drkurt.com; s=20130612; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=O4R+YzPGMiJFYkdcmV2XWuVF8evZ2zk5BscGGZzaDqA=; b=BPHjBTNqimRPnU2GKIHfXxPUEKtDLFxZJ3La0b8fNzjAGITO7QJaViz5vcogsHneHy mgcBnG83xuS671hJNU95yUVeGOaUhVO1NKhrnLu48lxzzr3B2VgNs0znjNOx1rwQ6x0g 0yGjpFsEqbr+3211nnKk1qLLxmNbHrm/5IyI0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=O4R+YzPGMiJFYkdcmV2XWuVF8evZ2zk5BscGGZzaDqA=; b=nGQXpljnmssQzJcf1LlYjbQq3P9Dopz09v2gyqbv/gxhBlfnK5G5s5cAaMItyNmhdf 6VudXcoPT2PJ2s0F1/5QZInNTYC1U8YoLCXVU6qATwoDjP6ezgJ8RFUq04NtqNhaF7SM gKki08gGKqZwzcTS6lMb5lbFwtGyymHl+LRyRCP2igSSbzVCcJQERplF2DkEwHUJB3gu Bd4nWHywrGn1wLXJEmgMLcxZhQNuL+oRIpeUQo5gFOw1mRA61QnoWx+FMchdUDXCrXJb 90qP++NNu6e4+eLyBEFk4CHuj81XzqYtQYneV+wT939LISRNZ1g+TkEf09St6e/VEn5h 71lw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnxdJ9RFpanfyplhZIhqsUVfzGv9GoSKCPvY33Z6SNlzUByNTiTSCCfbKYtLjUidUVGM9vT MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.142.232 with SMTP id rz8mr333682wjb.64.1393725433915; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 17:57:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: kurta@drkurt.com Received: by 10.195.12.137 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:57:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:57:13 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: icG-IbIyrxVSwaX9G-0pa13NafQ Message-ID: From: Kurt Andersen To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e011829e267437a04f395fd9e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/FYDfcmfeHepnS5Uq6H5yI_waq00 Cc: ned+ietf@mrochek.com, Kurt Andersen , Bill Mills , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 01:57:18 -0000 --089e011829e267437a04f395fd9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > Colleagues, > > Barry has done his evaluation of this draft and there's one point we'd > like to revisit with the WG before we send it on to IETF-wide Last Call and > then IESG Evaluation. > > Both forms of the extension use a timestamp that includes > hours:minutes:seconds. Two things we've been asked to either affirm or > reconsider here: > > 1) Is that level of precision necessary? Isn't just the date good enough? > > 2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possibly > introduced by clock synchronization issues? If yes, how bad? > I'd say leave it as is. For all effective purposes, if one truncates a time field, it's the same as filling the missing fields with zeroes so if that is what a sender wishes to do, they can feel free to do so. I think that the potential issues with clock skew are small enough to be ignored. If a user is racing to exploit a free account so quickly that clock skew works in their favor, it's just as likely to work against them and I have no sympathy. --Kurt Andersen --089e011829e267437a04f395fd9e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy <s= uperuser@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,

Barry has done his evaluation of this draft and= there's one point we'd like to revisit with the WG before we send = it on to IETF-wide Last Call and then IESG Evaluation.

Both forms of the extension use a timestamp that includes hours:minutes= :seconds.=A0 Two things we've been asked to either affirm or reconsider= here:

1) Is that level of precision necessary?=A0 Isn't j= ust the date good enough?

2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possi= bly introduced by clock synchronization issues?=A0 If yes, how bad?
=A0
I'd say leave it as= is. For all effective purposes, if one truncates a time field, it's th= e same as filling the missing fields with zeroes so if that is what a sende= r wishes to do, they can feel free to do so.

I think that the potential issues with clock skew are small = enough to be ignored. If a user is racing to exploit a free account so quic= kly that clock skew works in their favor, it's just as likely to work a= gainst them and I have no sympathy.

--Kurt Andersen
--089e011829e267437a04f395fd9e-- From nobody Sat Mar 1 19:38:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151831A03BA for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:38:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qdJDtqyO31Px for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE711A039E for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P4XVGYIHK0000XNG@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:36:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1393731372; bh=yg4/gI5d2uD5GW8wmrUqLu31irIMRYakk+w4e9V0XEw=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=OvImb60Z9EuFYEstjOPyhdV4hVv/r3/kwg+vreZ1s0p3U/ExDeUPTWIomn3GiBX7V 0ZIf4RbfFj6B6Nxmm/+NNKXjma9go7TS07ShJuvBog3wSbPbyjVKoWTQ5Jkdsg53wa txRK1GBtyxvhS53qp9ICfuuuzYelTtMWN8JEoEVc= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P4X6ZYGNCG00004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:36:09 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01P4XVGWKX7600004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:33:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 01 Mar 2014 17:57:13 -0800" References: To: Kurt Andersen Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/LSDIkb7ECo8DanMKimGBMnZ6JtE Cc: Kurt Andersen , Bill Mills , IETF Apps Discuss , ned+ietf@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 03:38:13 -0000 > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > Colleagues, > > > > Barry has done his evaluation of this draft and there's one point we'd > > like to revisit with the WG before we send it on to IETF-wide Last Call and > > then IESG Evaluation. > > > > Both forms of the extension use a timestamp that includes > > hours:minutes:seconds. Two things we've been asked to either affirm or > > reconsider here: > > > > 1) Is that level of precision necessary? Isn't just the date good enough? > > > > 2) Does using to-the-second precision expose us to problems possibly > > introduced by clock synchronization issues? If yes, how bad? > > > I'd say leave it as is. For all effective purposes, if one truncates a time > field, it's the same as filling the missing fields with zeroes so if that > is what a sender wishes to do, they can feel free to do so. > I think that the potential issues with clock skew are small enough to be > ignored. If a user is racing to exploit a free account so quickly that > clock skew works in their favor, it's just as likely to work against them > and I have no sympathy. I agree, and I will add that another reason not to use truncated time values is that doing so effectively creates another time representation syntax. The main reason the syntaxes used in this document were chosen was in order to match existing email syntax usage. As a result implementations don't have to write new parsers and incure the costs associated with doing so. Ned From nobody Sun Mar 2 02:37:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FC21A0C99 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 02:37:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTfr2-FU_CC6 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 02:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x231.google.com (mail-vc0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B53B1A0CC9 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 02:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id if11so2435017vcb.8 for ; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 02:37:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ldFG/C02M36GloZjKeQw2QR3ph9YmUzVlWXYMd76Quo=; b=y5yLb5AzRJBl2uYBvwQfE5E1MlG7BG7NlGaNf1LmxepgnkLZ0ZWfBj9i5q82t3kV4a UKqhQGA92+B9Y+kv9f3gXyi3suQ8c1czMzEbWJ4/koCqVA55sQJCEhwBo/HMlG4KNlBS ycQ/vqEGq8nw1XUx/M8SrJwFHJoeQYnsVsIRD4gWOzqH/D3Sqp/SH6n/sMs4Fj55OepH T4oEegnnt0p4AgpPZyTLt9d0QZWTtNGeLh5yoLwqJrAXTurh50RUGR0LqNLmO+SRtcxK ZEPvHG5QK2Wn1Vc3lpgpN6adm9up1zxt8V/FsezfjYIn30JtI+vGXzzvZ1Oy4bzYwhzx KTCQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.10.2 with SMTP id n2mr11778818vcn.26.1393756628573; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 02:37:08 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.19.104 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 02:37:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01P4XVGWKX7600004W@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <01P4XVGWKX7600004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 10:37:08 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: j-NDf_cAa9YXuji_3WYr01f9NFw Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Ned Freed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/U0tAO-ySn3zz1XIbJNr2GaH4hg8 Cc: ned+ietf@mrochek.com, Kurt Andersen , Bill Mills , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 10:37:12 -0000 > I agree, and I will add that another reason not to use truncated time values is > that doing so effectively creates another time representation syntax. The main > reason the syntaxes used in this document were chosen was in order to match > existing email syntax usage. As a result implementations don't have to write > new parsers and incure the costs associated with doing so. This and the other comments so far are sufficient; thanks. No need to discuss this further. Barry From nobody Sun Mar 2 15:48:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DAE1A0B2F for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JLTCc7MNe9na for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rozanak.com (mail.rozanak.com [IPv6:2a01:238:42ad:1500:aa19:4238:e48f:61cf]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66DA21A0B21 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.rozanak.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F88D23E2D59 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:48:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rozanak.com Received: from mail.rozanak.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.iknowlaws.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsKaQHGnZvxa for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:48:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from kopoli (e179170024.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.179.170.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.rozanak.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90C5023E2D58 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:48:32 +0100 (CET) From: "Hosnieh Rafiee" To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:48:30 +0100 Message-ID: <007401cf3671$ead73350$c08599f0$@rozanak.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac82cenI2gDqc0jLQJmkg3AZWKtoJA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/LgYmb2PJbs4c6FQBbqLB9BcX89k Subject: [apps-discuss] why no meetecho is available? X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 23:48:38 -0000 Hi, I just wonder why there is no meetecho session available for appsawg while there will be really important discussion and BoF there. I also could not find the place where I can download the slides (since I couldn't find on the agenda). If you know, please share it. Thanks, smile, Hosnieh From nobody Sun Mar 2 17:01:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0414B1A0B90 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOe0Wpq63B-w for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21A71A0B84 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id x13so1293579wgg.26 for ; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=PYQvLJ/PjZ3NcdkdcPsddmF2bA12vee89snMsbYsBVo=; b=ryKNxffhselnwzZdktJgmvpBo84JvW77jxwzCzS8qlySX16zebTJlJhYHmY6SC6Bic jE5NU6M84N10KPH96/rMM9E+b9i5u9tlw+3qvtxE60mXr5A1jh2Lid3jdE4sR0rjDJ2u mKZxLSe8S42NWsJPLNLglqc1WCUr0ZnT/Iq3x+ZLjIITUj/Sn2vw4GvgofZof2ezs8qk yFC7O9UzgsB4/Kofe9G5dNReP6+emVBensi4i87lIO4L9L3xPIsxgYxLox94mGnRAncS 2za4l5ZT1HyYvYmAx9NTBM1ip6zlivFXXOH87gAS7Rqv1uzShvPSWjukRXyH0H1LOOkU /14g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.110.135 with SMTP id ia7mr12975024wjb.5.1393808499490; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.223.68 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.223.68 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140303003758.3177.50192.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20140303003758.3177.50192.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:01:39 -0800 Message-ID: From: James M Snell To: Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf10a847f731604f3a95492 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mvUVvUt41tFTrPSOCfv7sfblTUM Subject: [apps-discuss] Fwd: Tags changed for draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 01:01:45 -0000 --047d7bf10a847f731604f3a95492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 All, as indicated in the note below, I am currently unable to dedicate time to updating this particular draft. I would need another editor to volunteer to take it on. I can make the source xml2rfc file available. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "IETF Secretariat" Date: Mar 2, 2014 4:38 PM Subject: Tags changed for draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch To: "Murray Kucherawy" , "Salvatore Loreto" < Salvatore.Loreto@ericsson.com>, "James M. Snell" Cc: The tags on draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch have been changed by Murray Kucherawy: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch/ Tag "Author or Editor Needed" added. Comment: Author is unable to continue with the work due to a change in priorities. No contact in over a month. Parking until a new author/editor can be found. --047d7bf10a847f731604f3a95492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All, as indicated in the note below, I am currently unable t= o dedicate time to updating this particular draft. I would need another edi= tor to volunteer to take it on. I can make the source xml2rfc file availabl= e.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= "IETF Secretariat" <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
Date: Mar 2, 2014 4:38= PM
Subject: Tags changed for draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch
To: "= Murray Kucherawy" <superuser= @gmail.com>, "Salvatore Loreto" <Salvatore.Loreto@ericsson.com>, "Jam= es M. Snell" <jasnell@gmail.co= m>
Cc:


The tags on draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch have been changed by
Murray Kucherawy:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-= json-merge-patch/

Tag "Author or Editor Needed" added.



Comment:
Author is unable to continue with the work due to a change in priorities. =C2=A0No contact in over a month. =C2=A0Parking until a new author/editor c= an be
found.
--047d7bf10a847f731604f3a95492-- From nobody Sun Mar 2 17:06:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB471A0B6F; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:06:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oiOKTKsldL2Z; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8855D1A0B8C; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:06:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140303010651.1901.6466.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 17:06:51 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/RoWcsyPPfMexkPYaJjxQF4uz_UQ Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-07.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 01:06:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field and SMTP Service Extension Authors : William J. Mills Murray S. Kucherawy Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-07.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2014-03-02 Abstract: This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receivers the point in time when the sender last confirmed the ownership of the target mailbox. This can be used to detect changes of mailbox ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong party. The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated messages that might contain sensitive information, though it may also be useful in other applications. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Mar 2 18:59:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E3A1A0C15 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:59:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URUPHkOU6Pfg for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x233.google.com (mail-pd0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9AB1A0C11 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w10so3134674pde.38 for ; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:58:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=QjEmvRB7mRGRsn9at4bzkJZNtmyVmAQzJv4SPUsYcdQ=; b=xCjUKV+vJaO6l9Nov1KqroyDc707wPAnNuArTi421GKnHG1lE0E8cbYOqgVUrUbvaR 4LGXsvpxC7ThrJ5lzINS5m2q+0AC1BU6gPCKHe4IQXbPYG4zEOhFlswku/6Ss9xdfETE Ke3CS3Yei2s9tCT3SmlOIVXmDmyIDCnnx3cTjt1y96/xHEY+M41mRJCFFP3Z9TCVTMEK yvFrGSkGw5qHP8N7qp8PYsW/tsSTl4ALpJakPMS0AyrjiOD2KgOlDEC3POyk+tJGExrX Tog35mXLtS+JnvWEAEc1ezGHmzcF9VvL1v5ocBj1XSSaW7Y56XqJGXCdntss40mCy5sY RI9A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.170.36 with SMTP id aj4mr17118385pbc.54.1393815538315; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:58:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacb21c0b396504f3aaf8b9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/65krjk-Sx5nUbdTGdRSvQeJUpBs Subject: [apps-discuss] IETF 89 slides uploaded X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 02:59:02 -0000 --047d7bacb21c0b396504f3aaf8b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Colleagues, I have uploaded all of the slides I have received for APPSAWG/APPAREA, except that I have been unable to upload the Augmented Reality slides through the meeting materials tool either due to network issues or the fact that the tool can't handle larger uploads. I have emailed them to the Secretariat for them to post, so hopefully that can happen before the meeting. If not, they should still be there afterwards at some point, and should also appear in the proceedings. If you sent slides and they do not appear in the meeting materials online now, please email me right away so I can go look for them again. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html#appsawg -MSK --047d7bacb21c0b396504f3aaf8b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colleagues,

I have uploaded all of the slides = I have received for APPSAWG/APPAREA, except that I have been unable to uplo= ad the Augmented Reality slides through the meeting materials tool either d= ue to network issues or the fact that the tool can't handle larger uplo= ads.=A0 I have emailed them to the Secretariat for them to post, so hopeful= ly that can happen before the meeting.=A0 If not, they should still be ther= e afterwards at some point, and should also appear in the proceedings.

If you sent slides and they do not appear in the meeting mat= erials online now, please email me right away so I can go look for them aga= in.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html#appsawg

-MSK
--047d7bacb21c0b396504f3aaf8b9-- From nobody Sun Mar 2 23:39:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E651A0349 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:39:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fbmpqIl6Uvzr for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988A61A078B for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:39:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-7c-531431abb711 Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E6.4D.04853.BA134135; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:39:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.128]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:39:22 +0100 From: Salvatore Loreto To: Hosnieh Rafiee Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] why no meetecho is available? Thread-Index: Ac82cenI2gDqc0jLQJmkg3AZWKtoJAAOWU6A Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 07:39:21 +0000 Message-ID: <9E53D8B1-5640-4059-BCCD-0621B7814762@ericsson.com> References: <007401cf3671$ead73350$c08599f0$@rozanak.com> In-Reply-To: <007401cf3671$ead73350$c08599f0$@rozanak.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5qQ5Fggw9TxSxWv1zBZnGis5vN gcljyZKfTB5TJjxlCWCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4MrY8pm1YA5Xxc2nv5gaGOdydDFycEgImEis 2VDTxcgJZIpJXLi3nq2LkYtDSOAEo8Szpo/MEM5iRol7y1eyglSxCZhJPH+4hRnEFhFQlTi0 /zI7iM0sYCoxt+ELI4gtLGAp0f9+AStEjZXE/Q1PoWwjiWW/37KA2CwCKhLnHk0Bs3kF7CXO n9oKZgsB9f78/w9sPidQ79PHJ8DmMwJd9/3UGiaIXeISt57MZ4K4WkBiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9Y IWwlicYlT1gh6nUkFuz+xAZhW0ssOb+dBcLWlli28DUzxA2CEidnPmGZwCg+C8mKWUjaZyFp n4WkfRaS9gWMrKsYJYtTi4tz040M9HLTc0v0Uosyk4uL8/P0ilM3MQKj7uCW30Y7GE/usT/E KM3BoiTOe521JkhIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QD44Rv6SkJjYzpCao2nlpflnKs F1GR2qTyu9zH/Eh3kJCYqcAlZV4L03uRq16/1r7zN2pKl6uCJ++lwNqg8LDF/wLnFU6NnJky 8+qfM5/lqxK9Dkf1Sra33cjfeuS3K0vU6f0lSb3i/wLMZ8W97YgU0Xjfsa5d/+jUnrwJr91u 2lvntIi+u1aixFKckWioxVxUnAgAXT3kTYgCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/MzGBqarL0PtagAcfJYUNMr_wQW4 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] why no meetecho is available? X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 07:39:28 -0000 Hi Hosnieh having meetecho session available for appsawg is a good idea. Unfortunately it is impossible to setup a Meetecho session at very last min= ute, the Meetecho guys are not able yet to cover all the IETF sessions so they h= ave to prioritise the one with remote presenters and/or the one with a large re= mote audience or the one that have been requested in advance. Now they are fully booked. If people want appsawg to be available on Meetecho in the future IETF meeti= ngs please let we know and we will make sure to book the Meetecho service in ti= me. about the slides: Murray has update the slides.=20 see: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg11513.htm= l br Salvatore=20 On Mar 2, 2014, at 11:48 PM, Hosnieh Rafiee wrote: > Hi, > I just wonder why there is no meetecho session available for appsawg whil= e > there will be really important discussion and BoF there. I also could not > find the place where I can download the slides (since I couldn't find on > the agenda). If you know, please share it. >=20 > Thanks, > smile, > Hosnieh >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Sun Mar 2 23:57:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD331A078B for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:57:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DxAPO1a9y7_w for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702971A0B7E for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A254F5161 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vW2FcP-FJD6 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4144F5394 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785904F52A0 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5ccJpKsZNwdy for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649434F5161 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:57:21 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-ID: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: <2024215487.7076.1393833375705.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [69.28.149.129] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: gtv+3EDX5y1n20B5K6DA7ChByS0JJQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zkZ-9kUk95cl8oPZQ-TV3AsPkX0 Subject: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 07:57:42 -0000 Following a suggestion at last IETF meeting to codify TLS results in email please find the following (feedback most welcome on apps-disccus@ietf.org): A new version of I-D, draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Franck Martin and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls Revision: 00 Title: Authentication-Results Registration for TLS Document date: 2014-03-03 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 6 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00 Abstract: This memo updates the registry of properties in Authentication- Results: message header fields to allow relaying of the results of an email sent using STARTTLS [RFC3207] or not. From nobody Mon Mar 3 00:31:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324391A0012 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FgQckc-r-B8Y for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0211.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512971A0349 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB597.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.93.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.888.9; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:30:55 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0888.003; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:30:55 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-get-off-my-lawn-01 Thread-Index: Ac82uRB0M7kvLDmuTQeEJDtLyUNyIQ== Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:30:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:160:9c8e:9b77:b262:6274] x-forefront-prvs: 0139052FDB x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(189002)(199002)(77982001)(74366001)(47976001)(47736001)(50986001)(86612001)(95416001)(81686001)(59766001)(79102001)(85306002)(83072002)(74316001)(46102001)(49866001)(80022001)(65816001)(94946001)(81542001)(15202345003)(69226001)(63696002)(81342001)(4396001)(54356001)(76796001)(74502001)(47446002)(2656002)(76786001)(81816001)(15975445006)(93136001)(74662001)(87266001)(76576001)(33646001)(74876001)(76176001)(87936001)(51856001)(76482001)(93516002)(80976001)(85852003)(56776001)(54316002)(56816005)(90146001)(74706001)(53806001)(19580395003)(83322001)(86362001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB597; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:2001:67c:370:160:9c8e:9b77:b262:6274; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zUDxstymTK6WWd7_Wob6XyfMYAY Subject: [apps-discuss] Comments on draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-get-off-my-lawn-01 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 08:31:02 -0000 I send some comments to the author last week, most of which are just editorial nits (for anyone else who cares to see all editorial feedback, se= e http://research.microsoft.com/~dthaler/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-get-off-my-la= wn-01.pdf). A summary of my feedback is: 1) I agree with the points others have made about a couple statements=20 being too web/HTTP specific. This should be straightforward to fix with a bit of wordsmithing. 2) Some of the guidance needs (in my view) to be fixed up regarding how it applies to scheme-defining specifications, which are by=20 definition "owners". For example, some places (correctly) state that constraining the syntax is the purview of the owner not other folks,=20 but other places say more generally that it's inappropriate to constrai= n=20 the syntax more than RFC 3986 does. The latter needs to be fixed to= =20 not apply to scheme defining documents. 3) The guidance for "extensions" needs elaboration. For example, why was it ok for RFC 5785 to add structure to the path for HTTP URIs, but not ok for something else to do so for some other scheme, or for=20 something else to do so for the (say) query component for some=20 scheme? Currently sections 2.2 and 2.3 bless the former and disallows everything else, without explanation of why that one should be special. -Dave From nobody Mon Mar 3 00:58:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C121A0B3E for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snw-UmShOzxD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rozanak.com (mail.rozanak.com [IPv6:2a01:238:42ad:1500:aa19:4238:e48f:61cf]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F621A09AE for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.rozanak.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2AB23E2D59; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:58:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rozanak.com Received: from mail.rozanak.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.iknowlaws.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FG9JaaJ_ZmHv; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:58:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from kopoli (g226063187.adsl.alicedsl.de [92.226.63.187]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.rozanak.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0EBF623E2D58; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:58:09 +0100 (CET) From: "Hosnieh Rafiee" To: "'Salvatore Loreto'" References: <007401cf3671$ead73350$c08599f0$@rozanak.com> <9E53D8B1-5640-4059-BCCD-0621B7814762@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <9E53D8B1-5640-4059-BCCD-0621B7814762@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:58:07 +0100 Message-ID: <004501cf36be$b24ed270$16ec7750$@rozanak.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJo14aGzuQ2luWwnFHKs51kdrYDmQGcF+bEmY7raMA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Dn0_RPWulheAYKXTEFu14aICndQ Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] why no meetecho is available? X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 08:58:15 -0000 > If people want appsawg to be available on Meetecho in the future IETF > meetings please let we know and we will make sure to book the Meetecho > service in time. I guess it will be really helpful. So , please consider it for the next meeting Thanks, Hosnieh From nobody Mon Mar 3 01:18:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFDB1A0940; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:18:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxBU_PlvCmS7; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0AF1A0012; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:18:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140303091806.28290.87616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 01:18:06 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/YM4bcrYpluhdOUIB9uOGLUlVcsI Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes-09.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:18:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : XML Media Types Authors : Henry S. Thompson Chris Lilley Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes-09.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2014-03-03 Abstract: This specification standardizes three media types -- application/xml, application/xml-external-parsed-entity, and application/xml-dtd -- for use in exchanging network entities that are related to the Extensible Markup Language (XML) while defining text/xml and text/ xml-external-parsed-entity as aliases for the respective application/ types. This specification also standardizes the '+xml' suffix for naming media types outside of these five types when those media types represent XML MIME entities. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 3 01:44:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D8D1A0DB2; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:44:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tFyWjizRyWyd; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C5D1A0C0A; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:44:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20140303094446.4830.30317.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 01:44:46 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/S35JwZqtjDA0ybvAHmnvwCmuDVg Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] Last Call: (The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field and SMTP Service Extension) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:44:51 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Applications Area Working Group WG (appsawg) to consider the following document: - 'The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field and SMTP Service Extension' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2014-03-17. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receivers the point in time when the sender last confirmed the ownership of the target mailbox. This can be used to detect changes of mailbox ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong party. The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated messages that might contain sensitive information, though it may also be useful in other applications. The file can be obtained via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ IESG discussion can be tracked via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Mon Mar 3 02:05:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653DE1A0DEF; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:05:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rsR3EH5aW1Oq; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A301C1A0D8D; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:04:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20140303100457.22583.16203.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 02:04:57 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/pm4wPsOlp6YGu8c-DVFhzM0C3t0 Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] Last Call: (XML Media Types) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 10:05:03 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Applications Area Working Group WG (appsawg) to consider the following document: - 'XML Media Types' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2014-03-17. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This specification standardizes three media types -- application/xml, application/xml-external-parsed-entity, and application/xml-dtd -- for use in exchanging network entities that are related to the Extensible Markup Language (XML) while defining text/xml and text/ xml-external-parsed-entity as aliases for the respective application/ types. This specification also standardizes the '+xml' suffix for naming media types outside of these five types when those media types represent XML MIME entities. Note that this document has normative references to eight W3C documents, as well as two Informational RFCs. The Informational RFCs are: 1. RFC 2781, "UTF-16, an encoding of ISO 10646" 2. RFC 6839, "Additional Media Type Structured Syntax Suffixes" Both of those documents should be added to the downref registry (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/DownrefRegistry) after this last call completes. The file can be obtained via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes/ Once IESG discussion begins, it can be tracked via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Mon Mar 3 04:10:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920811A0070 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:10:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cePEIuSyu6at for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA011A0073 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:10:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140303121020.7675.13222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 04:10:20 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/H-zOpmRUqXBrSIiWdTshS9ESHvk Subject: [apps-discuss] Milestones changed for appsawg WG X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:10:23 -0000 Changed milestone "Publication requested for draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes", resolved as "Done". URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charter/ From nobody Mon Mar 3 04:45:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9261A0047 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42DzDiHUuaFf for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B591A00CD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 04:44:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140303124436.8771.78684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 04:44:36 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/9TDO82JPeRNLlZJV2ICReovpM-0 Subject: [apps-discuss] Milestones changed for appsawg WG X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:45:09 -0000 Changed milestone "Publication requested for draft-ietf-appsawg-multipart-form-data", set due date to April 2014 from February 2014. URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charter/ From nobody Mon Mar 3 06:47:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73D41A01FD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47SYVw_ghNLj for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 06:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [208.43.65.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ED11A01F1 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 06:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E324DD0446A; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:47:01 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1393858022; bh=onCFLiXtavUbGBCzfKOPcGQeGBjqbo6almS1keCj3GQ=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=JpN5zklS+qRVkpZiUXt0jNNeuvmyHSKrRTV3khPvXw4wbw46B7MlOjsuMaGvNcFCg SIENqmPAkjkXAGQE4lJ9k+xyWObfgOXo64izLvdurD+OvoU9bkCUhDOADX7yrFvEw5 PGCedmgv2LHN4GlWVxYl9Wwus+p7y5URfi2IRRHY= Received: from [192.168.111.116] (static-72-81-252-21.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A43F3D042DF; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:47:01 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Scott Kitterman Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:46:54 -0500 To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-ID: <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/9KCCyPJZQDy_sMs7gQvSlS889Mo Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 14:47:08 -0000 On March 3, 2014 2:57:21 AM EST, Franck Martin wrote: >Following a suggestion at last IETF meeting to codify TLS results in >email please find the following (feedback most welcome on >apps-disccus@ietf.org): ... I've reviewed the document and find it's a straightforward extension of auth-results. I have one comment though and I think it's a significant one: Most SMTP over TLS traffic is done with self-signed certificates, so I think it's wrong to call that "fail". I would imagine fail to describe a failure to encrypt, not a failure to verify via a CA. Maybe instead of pass/fail it should be verified/unverified? A failure should be about an error condition and that isn't what the current draft describes. Scott K From nobody Mon Mar 3 07:16:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200E01A0075 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 07:16:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PigEidpQZ-Gh for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 07:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099691A004A for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 07:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CA9FA0065; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 15:16:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1393859768-15935-15935/11/2; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 15:16:08 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: IETF Apps Discuss Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:16:07 +0100 User-Agent: Trojita/v0.3.96-176-g713fcbb; Qt/4.8.4; X11; Linux; Ubuntu 13.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/myxigRHZ9F2xT8zjft2R-8q25PI Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 15:16:15 -0000 I read the draft and didn't like the same bit. Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully transmitted message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined and I overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for misunderstandings. Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the three encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane". Arnt From nobody Mon Mar 3 09:25:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D8F1A01E4 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:25:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j_O7sr692FOb for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [IPv6:2607:f0d0:3001:aa::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5CC1A0002 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0A7D040DC; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:25:06 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1393867506; bh=3C13taSPC2/6EuABWcHWoYYzBYw/rmlu+cqbH6oLqqw=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=OgOM5GjLm3sxZC7zJ+NrFDwSaNffZpSyB7kA9MKh9L7L9KUscuHkMGVbDY/L94yh+ /luUMSud/5O+RHdgM3W0CXPUn+Jw1X1TCR+26Xd1PLWrAi+Yyzpkbusv6LxNh/oCUQ Zm0CNZTr98K78A1CoYLDmJYK12az7jcsi51pDqBA= Received: from [192.168.111.2] (static-72-81-252-22.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC643D04277; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:25:05 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Scott Kitterman Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:25:03 -0500 To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-ID: <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/KjoRMhWBKN8T3lXmVA9R-hiI-jY Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 17:25:12 -0000 On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >I read the draft and didn't like the same bit. > >Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully >transmitted >message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined and I > >overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for misunderstandings. > >Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the >three >encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane". Those three sound good to me. DANE is a good point. Scott K From nobody Mon Mar 3 09:27:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA571A02E1 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:26:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLv3WI39UkUr for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x22f.google.com (mail-ob0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B771A02DF for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id uy5so3835138obc.20 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:26:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8fbma2Ww0qu3RzkUT19NzWQnjTWBFxy5cZRUnPkjv6g=; b=aqpaJsDh2ajWl+DIm8PG/FftTEzIwO1fckw5L+FiuiEBHR5IwNktoY8Swzfd38rCyz bQKiKECUXjsujLAiDQky4cBkJdiw/sBFESIIPRCXBd+vgYIv+0NeNhomQHQ+WUzx/Bvb YL07FaV7vJjQ2WDvVnbeoSalV3M3fHZgyT/HA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8fbma2Ww0qu3RzkUT19NzWQnjTWBFxy5cZRUnPkjv6g=; b=fJixQnmkj7AC8clc4jdkWHTlyb+Z9NO8IlURnoM9dq0DSQkfDKjpVaNbgRGMMfM5eB fWcx9KY5k6jVOv58rndyYpNAzhP6LCB+zP9Vd2JMDZPHFno4v6Eil6MPF1qvBFrN61yN phzuX/8o/3UtCrGDRmYcki5bbfEfA/PcuVik4ZYsjFAGcIOmB/IdcUQiawVdBcaV6FzE bDYqjiW8jVmvFyN32BMkrQMrVuPJUkEVOpskiMkCdgEqBl0ZwBo+hNOfcQfrPkPeBlWA Y0V+7lS/j9w3AenPIHNe2RERK84nn5dSBS1bXq2XhGmMzTDUr8niiFseTSeYuED2AWGR v+ow== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmdGJjEBfx4alkxAHPX6dZD+ox3b9O1zDFMN/egOvu/1XcYZD2WlP3jmjgku1l8NlfEQoKg MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.76.38 with SMTP id h6mr1154215oew.79.1393867612612; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.70.146 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:26:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:26:52 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Scott Kitterman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33d4feea27f504f3b7177a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/__g61eADUPqa5Aw4LNdQkPDjuUE Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 17:26:57 -0000 --047d7b33d4feea27f504f3b7177a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't think it is, really. Verified or unverified are the interesting cases. "Dane" may or may not be providing additional, or alternative, security. If a certificate is verified to have a trust path back to a known CA with additional DANE constraints, is that "ca" or "dane", and should I care? On 3 March 2014 17:25, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > > On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen < > arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > >I read the draft and didn't like the same bit. > > > >Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully > >transmitted > >message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined and I > > > >overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for misunderstandings. > > > >Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the > >three > >encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane". > > Those three sound good to me. DANE is a good point. > > Scott K > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > --047d7b33d4feea27f504f3b7177a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think it is, really. Verified or unverified ar= e the interesting cases. "Dane" may or may not be providing addit= ional, or alternative, security. If a certificate is verified to have a tru= st path back to a known CA with additional DANE constraints, is that "= ca" or "dane", and should I care?


On 3 March 20= 14 17:25, Scott Kitterman <scott@kitterman.com> wrote:
=


On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:
>I read the draft and didn't like the same bit.
>
>Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a suc= cessfully
>transmitted
>message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined a= nd I
>
>overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for misunderstandi= ngs.
>
>Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the >three
>encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane&q= uot;.

Those three sound good to me. =A0DANE is a good point.

Scott K

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--047d7b33d4feea27f504f3b7177a-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 10:45:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E51F1A0326 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 10:45:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E01t0mUconAO for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 10:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EA71A031E for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 10:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BC639007E; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:46 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dSSj-3G46e35; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEBB3900D7; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F183900B0; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:46 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BRrDA-jc9BNA; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4E439007E; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:45:45 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: Scott Kitterman Message-ID: <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: OKxbN/K9O5y3BGmOYwDTShRoUvXlrQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/OmKM-zW_LfZ6tsKJVGlWdgL6riM Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 18:45:55 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Kitterman" > To: "IETF Apps Discuss" > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 5:25:03 PM > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > > > On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen > wrote: > >I read the draft and didn't like the same bit. > > > >Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully > >transmitted > >message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined and I > > > >overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for misunderstandings. > > > >Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the > >three > >encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane". > > Those three sound good to me. DANE is a good point. > I was trying to stay with the current defined words in other methods and giving them a specific meaning relevant to TLS, but I'm happy to use different words too. I would think that dane is "verified" same as with a PKI. May be a new optional property needs to be added instead? tls.ca=dane/pki and permerror could be converted to "unverified" From nobody Mon Mar 3 11:03:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69AE1A03A8 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TSMUKssG5-al for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [80.244.248.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534A11A03A6 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BD5FA0073; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:03:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1393873405-15935-15935/11/3; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:03:25 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 20:03:24 +0100 User-Agent: Trojita/v0.3.96-176-g713fcbb; Qt/4.8.4; X11; Linux; Ubuntu 13.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/nd7XqCd16STgoWHSJcWUtWDFsCQ Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:03:33 -0000 I'd be happy if the definition of "verified" were amended to allow DANE as well as a known CA. Distinguishing between DANE and CA verification is... interesting to me personally, but perhaps KISS and a single value is better for the world. So, use one value or two, as you please. Arnt From nobody Mon Mar 3 11:52:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8051A034F for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m-bNMG_NsA7b for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA5D1A030A for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4A73F5F05; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:54 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FVJkSGXfg9oD; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8083F628C; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEADE3F6214; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:53 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Ija3rBeswKF9; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3B83F5F05; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:51:53 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Message-ID: <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: vv0541WizWgvJw5eCt7ptxcpCc8JRA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/1CumhKELfALbg_cwwU5mOJ1_p4o Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:52:00 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 7:03:24 PM > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > I'd be happy if the definition of "verified" were amended to allow DANE as > well as a known CA. > > Distinguishing between DANE and CA verification is... interesting to me > personally, but perhaps KISS and a single value is better for the world. > So, use one value or two, as you please. While I'm still undecided with self signed certificates, for instance in web browsers, they generate the same error message as if the certificate is expired. As for DANE/CA, Auth-res works mostly in a controlled environment only, so if you enable DANE, this is on your mail server, so you should know if you trust it like you trust a CA. I'm proposing 2.1, while I'm not entirely sure if softfail (or called neutral?) should exist. The "tls" method can have the following results: none: the message was sent in clear. pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is self signed. fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was not verified by the MTA server. From nobody Mon Mar 3 11:52:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7711C1A0379 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:52:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W_VpMvWE2c2c for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x229.google.com (mail-oa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606141A036B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id j17so2968791oag.0 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 11:52:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=SbRrB2cOHcDmt5Q5OveoaPcyMdSgln8yeIQ+V/x9K54=; b=MriPyAYVE9EjBkyoui2IIwIjKSm4ERMvASU25eoLDa3UTSwupEOq7I0nKX4yr0njoz IZcKM/OR2s6wPBB+L8wjnbYLi36mVG7bOpK2Yc2atLpSJRS77U8BvtAJ1imkaCQku3Ph as6odErCQYMz6euwcXZ5C4EesAr1S4AlsriWk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=SbRrB2cOHcDmt5Q5OveoaPcyMdSgln8yeIQ+V/x9K54=; b=hztABBapgavfdStN56ZuF1GYJjXsTLtlrKAx9xcFdjMX4TJMfdGZ0OK0u4WRGJIXK9 1csAntYeWmCSPd5+gA2zabh8BwccgVBXjLEWtM9ro1BqhZdUboPz+P4f7wi4vpCulUDS Le9XW1l76XJ5KislZCtS6BDuWxyh7yOQXWqqKioLDiELrEaei4kbn11BTu4msEuDOsTK mHMmuWAv3w/g7PqnX98hM+S87Qww5IxVwyAGF230QZ1JBmjjcHUnoUMyPzbX4DBKayTp FfeWdkfa7hcNZv9sMyUAuKuJeV5hLHyg5zFFxUuKZ3d9bj2/ZFjds31hWrGGhRW6t1gC P1Ag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk0JIIg567XY1tz1E8Cl3lFjcIOyGtTO5itdH74LQoK9n3fiSF/cLrfWROOWLluvJN9N3yO MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.48.233 with SMTP id p9mr7924374obn.44.1393876324395; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 11:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.70.146 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:52:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:52:04 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b66f0bd2d41ff04f3b91fa0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/7O6c0AXWzsgn5GM0F_KcJ7chg24 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:52:08 -0000 --047d7b66f0bd2d41ff04f3b91fa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 3 March 2014 19:03, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > I'd be happy if the definition of "verified" were amended to allow DANE as > well as a known CA. > > Distinguishing between DANE and CA verification is... interesting to me > personally, but perhaps KISS and a single value is better for the world. > So, use one value or two, as you please. Yes, it's interesting to me, too, but it's not critical information. Moreover, it leads to grey areas between the two. Dave. --047d7b66f0bd2d41ff04f3b91fa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 3= March 2014 19:03, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no&g= t; wrote:
I'd be happy if the definition of "= verified" were amended to allow DANE as well as a known CA.

Distinguishing between DANE and CA verification is... interesting to me per= sonally, but perhaps KISS and a single value is better for the world. So, u= se one value or two, as you please.

Yes, it= 's interesting to me, too, but it's not critical information. Moreo= ver, it leads to grey areas between the two.

Dave.=A0
--047d7b66f0bd2d41ff04f3b91fa0-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 11:57:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B7D1A03A1 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:57:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37wgk2u-81uz for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from snt0-omc3-s25.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s25.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.164]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FF31A0368 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from SNT146-W3 ([65.55.90.136]) by snt0-omc3-s25.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:57:40 -0800 X-TMN: [kPm5Trkl0dEBLCfgG46kBPKfvUDoEB0i] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2598a6c7-e79a-4232-a22b-f14271847acd_" From: Brian Aberle To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:57:40 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2014 19:57:40.0731 (UTC) FILETIME=[D57ADCB0:01CF371A] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/HDDj0jTOmRsdtQz7PcXCcchJF-s Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:57:47 -0000 --_2598a6c7-e79a-4232-a22b-f14271847acd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi world=2C It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my wh= ole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't = this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this i= s about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this Internet stuff c= ame from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another colo= rful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is rea= l. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too bus= y=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. I put together = a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplying t= his direct link in my first posting: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML is = rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C = and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.= com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =20 The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that n= ecessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked t= he apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to ge= t good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C s= o I turned up the color volume a bit. =20 World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the numbers= in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock f= ight id put all my money on 777. =20 =20 From: xml4ietf@live.com To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 =0A= =0A= =0A= Hello World=2C I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX an= d DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numbers = which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other reason= s as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the a= pplication layer. This issue in discussion here before the community is: D= o we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to kee= p inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization".X= MLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must also no= te that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object Insta= nce Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just don't= need=2C however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this= (and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identified qu= ickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/fl= at.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C= 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle =20 I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we reso= lve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I hav= e prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproject.c= om/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedback in= the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++=3B = The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not ref= lect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implementatio= n.I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of X= ML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact back= ed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serializatio= n" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use the = new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe = the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in th= e above two public threads over the past decade.Since the very purpose of I= ETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we colle= ctively can identify a need for it=2C (each of us would create our own cool= version no doubt) but collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should= we have an RFC for this? That is the question. =20 World=2C what do you think?=20 = --_2598a6c7-e79a-4232-a22b-f14271847acd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi world=2C
It's me again.&nb= sp=3B =3BI'll just be honest here. =3B Ive never took the time in m= y whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that.&nbs= p=3B Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? =3B&nbs= p=3BAll .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where = all this Internet stuff came from. =3B Now I know a forum of Peacock's = is not =3Bimpressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators be= cause we know that cock fighting is real. =3B =3BI don't know if ya= 'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't= notice the new guy=2C I don't know. =3B I put together a very complete= example and implementation. =3B Forgive me for not supplying this dire= ct link in my first posting:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!92= 3&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

Wo= rld - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Draft= to obtain =3Bfeedback? =3B That is the new question. This =3Bo= verview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C B= osses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. = =3Bhttp= ://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
 =3B
The&= nbsp=3BOLD question =3Bwas "Should we have an RFC for this?"
The NEW= question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" =3B Is that n= ecessary? to get the attention of =3Bcocks that squawk in this spot? I = asked the =3Bapps-discuss admins =3Bwho said that it =3Bcould b= e equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an Internet= Draft. =3B I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bit. =3B
World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? =3B= Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. =3B If numb= ers were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
 =3B
=  =3B
From: xml4ietf@live.com
To: app= s-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu=2C 27= Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700

=0A= =0A= =0A=
He= llo World=2C

=

I am seeking community= feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM. =3B I have = put together several examples that show performance numbers which alone jus= tify =3Bthis alternative to SAX or DOM. =3B There are other reasons= as well=2C primarily =3B- the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in=  =3Bthe application layer. =3B This issue in discussion here = =3Bbefore the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? =3B Maybe not.&= nbsp=3B Maybe so. =3B We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel.&nb= sp=3B The concept is simple. =3B It is "XML Serialization".

XMLObject Parsing? =3B We don't need t= o invent new words=2C but we must also note that "Serialization" =3Binc= ludes neither =3BKeyed =3BXML Updates nor Object Instance Reference= counting. =3B We also don't need fancy things that we just don't = =3Bneed=2C =3Bhowever I have prepared an example using CORBA that does = need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). =3B This =3Bco= ncept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: =3B <= /font><= /font>http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721<= /a>

=  =3B&nb= sp=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B Most recent reply: F= eb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle =3B =3B =3B

I recommend =3Bthat =3Bthis thread =3Bbe continuation from that one=2C where we resolve to so= lve an identified need (for and RFC?) =3B That is the question. I have = prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articl= es/37850/XMLFoundation-2 =3BI have received much valuable feedback in th= e public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++=3B = =3B The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not= reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implement= ation.

I had developed/co-dev= eloped 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. =3B That is = rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact =3Bbacked by the = "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. =3B "XML Serialization" = is perhaps =3Bslightly more complex in implementation. =3B =3BW= e need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serializati= on++" to describe the =3Beven more complex implementation =3Bwhich = addresses the needs raised in =3Bthe above two public threads over the = past decade.

Since the very pur= pose of =3BIETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the whe= el when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each =3Bof us wo= uld =3Bcreate our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would&= nbsp=3Broll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? =3B That= is the question.
 =3B
World=2C what do you think?<= /font>

 =3B
= --_2598a6c7-e79a-4232-a22b-f14271847acd_-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 12:16:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2461A00B6; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id thhEVgBypyin; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C841A03D7; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:16:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140303201628.30101.84168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:16:28 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/V9b-RTr0b_UHNiEqD9Z92MUkylk Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 20:16:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Detecting Duplicate Deliveries Author : Stephan Bosch Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2014-03-03 Abstract: This document defines a new test command "duplicate" for the "Sieve" email filtering language. This test adds the ability to detect duplications. The main application for this new test is handling duplicate deliveries commonly caused by mailing list subscriptions or redirected mail addresses. The detection is normally performed by matching the message ID to an internal list of message IDs from previously delivered messages. For more complex applications, the "duplicate" test can also use the content of a specific header or other parts of the message. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 3 12:31:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8551A0388 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:31:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W26TlgqrWqeR for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from drpepper.rename-it.nl (drpepper.rename-it.nl [217.119.238.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EED1A018A for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from klara.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.162.218]:54297 helo=[10.168.3.2]) by drpepper.rename-it.nl with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WKZVo-0006Z1-4C for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 21:30:58 +0100 Message-ID: <5314E676.1010804@rename-it.nl> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 21:30:46 +0100 From: Stephan Bosch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org References: <20140303201628.30101.84168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140303201628.30101.84168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RenameIT-MailScanner-SpamScore: -2.3 (--) X-RenameIT-MailScanner-SpamCheck: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/NXeBCimgcbb9bMsZkbPjpYAqhJg Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 20:31:04 -0000 Hi, On 3/3/2014 9:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Detecting Duplicate Deliveries > Author : Stephan Bosch > Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-sieve-duplicate-03.txt > Pages : 13 > Date : 2014-03-03 > > Abstract: > This document defines a new test command "duplicate" for the "Sieve" > email filtering language. This test adds the ability to detect > duplications. The main application for this new test is handling > duplicate deliveries commonly caused by mailing list subscriptions or > redirected mail addresses. The detection is normally performed by > matching the message ID to an internal list of message IDs from > previously delivered messages. For more complex applications, the > "duplicate" test can also use the content of a specific header or > other parts of the message. This new draft addresses the comments received on the last -02 version and includes a few changes of my own. The changes are as follows: - Formulated usage scenarios in the introduction with a bit less certainty (Tom Petch). - Mentioned that Message-ID may not in fact be unique and that the "duplicate" test does nothing to deal with this (Tom Petch). - Clarified that the "duplicate" test is best used as the first test to prevent unexpected behavior. (Arnt Gulbrandsen). - Reduced the use of "multiple" (Arnt Gulbrandsen). - Addressed small editorial comments (Tony Hansen, Robert Sparks, Ned Freed). - Simplified the text about not modifying tracking list for failed script executions (S. Moonesamy). - Added a note about the necessity of the :handle argument in certain cases. Also added an example to clarify. (Robert Sparks). - Described preprocessing steps of header values explicitly, including UTF-8 conversion (Tom Petch) and header unfolding (me). - Changed the example in Section 3 not to rely on a static value for the duplicate :uniqueid test (Ned Freed). - Explicitly described the syntax rules of the :header and :uniqueid parameters (me) Thanks for all the reviews. Reviewers, please indicate whether your comments were addressed adequately. Regards, Stephan. From nobody Mon Mar 3 13:24:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278221A0102 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:24:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eo22kF0v5XnD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [IPv6:2607:f0d0:3001:aa::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76E1A00FF for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F37B95603B; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:24:03 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1393881843; bh=HM2bcZQrSWa0cHPGpg196vDZWKo7p5EHzOV6KWYEHDk=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=GmmkOt2jwx+nPvmXA5/6AogPBmUK0FmkDpmsTnC7baY1IEL/CsEXgePc1RLcKb1+g BMDOw29MDE1R60Gm3UTsaz/MMFB/POYJh0DrMRfl8OCyrkcXf49YaP/2UTE5hEoCvI EGtpXYiqhKYdvWiU5IR1cMt6+QaOjCaKE5Ek4HrM= Received: from scott-latitude-e6320.localnet (static-72-81-252-21.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBF2CD040C8; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:24:02 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Kitterman To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 16:23:59 -0500 Message-ID: <1721265.xFzS0qx9jh@scott-latitude-e6320> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.5 (Linux/3.11.0-17-generic; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/5JitO93zpp_6HXHde62hA-Wx8a0 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 21:24:09 -0000 On Monday, March 03, 2014 13:51:53 Franck Martin wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 7:03:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > > > I'd be happy if the definition of "verified" were amended to allow DANE as > > well as a known CA. > > > > Distinguishing between DANE and CA verification is... interesting to me > > personally, but perhaps KISS and a single value is better for the world. > > So, use one value or two, as you please. > > While I'm still undecided with self signed certificates, for instance in web > browsers, they generate the same error message as if the certificate is > expired. > > As for DANE/CA, Auth-res works mostly in a controlled environment only, so > if you enable DANE, this is on your mail server, so you should know if you > trust it like you trust a CA. > > I'm proposing 2.1, while I'm not entirely sure if softfail (or called > neutral?) should exist. > > The "tls" method can have the following results: > > none: the message was sent in clear. > > pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was > verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. > > softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > self signed. > > fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of > the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... > > temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able > to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for > instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. > > permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate > was not verified by the MTA server. I think it's wrong to define the primary normal mode of operations as a fail case. How about unverified or unknown? Scott K From nobody Mon Mar 3 14:13:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2E01A01BC for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NUp04H6Go3d9 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91C41A0132 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1so3991517wgh.3 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=drkurt.com; s=20130612; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DOLsNKaOitQr+KOi8ltzG93jKzA+1lzNp5mLKwaERlc=; b=bjb06zYdeXxCy1cLFtdUA6KUuG4/v4UfjXAAXSU8Nhnh0e95uNpNdgVwDgMF40FbeX P99Ek07lMzbDFvWZ6ZmpqDsS8HVi9QvH5kBxQmE4GQuTQ/TK+qzZs2hG/1H4MljrKSor 61ooI3fAMjewP4I2wZ34BLLuaVActDKC0AI64= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DOLsNKaOitQr+KOi8ltzG93jKzA+1lzNp5mLKwaERlc=; b=JDWa8xsuj7/wg4VKmxi/7W6Uh7tr9qM3Cn/2KxieTbM5fgd0brNcnPryyNwuVVOFl0 7wAdo985b6kkVXvjkxEogIQtdKkDP5fGxETEfgYFB3YGrus17biGL2KGq6hM4Gj5vM6u aKPW7ifRDZFdjUOu7I7A8SJV3bgbIKNh2o1UCrxEYOWzXlXIoOPRjjChHrTyyWgQPySn Gr9UG349Ia9zbEW4caYDQRfB5iDbMuAbSJBf/u+niA+iw8qMNspUdjbAU5H1T/POUcXl qiZbuYFoN86Sn0hXJZvk6w2momkBfVNymNzZgtJIrqik/BqEC7Mv/5ZSJ3i1Qg8e92HQ 8MZg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkjpwJro17ZfsiEofD14191FaCwIlPNif6gSYo7UJ8alFyOIEW0b1ce0UOnxh234QmHXo6X MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.108.162 with SMTP id hl2mr9922718wjb.84.1393884818377; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) Sender: kurta@drkurt.com Received: by 10.195.12.137 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:13:38 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ixsAhVd2nCZ3WmJNd0HoftVxvuo Message-ID: From: Kurt Andersen To: Franck Martin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0102f2127526b304f3bb1984 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/QnM1bO6SGM-4HphuRYMjRrO9FOU Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 22:13:44 -0000 --089e0102f2127526b304f3bb1984 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Franck Martin wrote: > The "tls" method can have the following results: > > none: the message was sent in clear. > > pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was > verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. > > softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > self signed. > > fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of > the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... > > temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able > to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for > instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. > > permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate > was not verified by the MTA server. I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the very least, one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them. To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects to this: 1) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS 2) if TLS, how "good" is the client cert Mixing the two concepts together makes it hard to figure out what is happening. If one was to further add in alignment requirements for cert and content (as has been discussed in some other arenas), the mess will only get worse. --Kurt Andersen --089e0102f2127526b304f3bb1984 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Franck Martin <fr= anck@peachymango.org> wrote:
The "tls" method c= an have the following results:

=A0 =A0none: the message was sent in clear.

=A0 =A0pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was<= br> =A0 =A0verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698].

=A0 =A0softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate = is
=A0 =A0self signed.

=A0 =A0fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is =A0 =A0not valid. =A0It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature o= f
=A0 =A0the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,...<= br>
=A0 =A0temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not abl= e
=A0 =A0to verify the client certificate at this time. =A0This may indicate = for
=A0 =A0instance that the server could not fetch the CRL.

=A0 =A0permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate=
=A0 =A0was not verified by the MTA server.=A0

I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the very lea= st, one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them.

To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects to this:
1= ) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS
2) if TLS, how= "good" is the client cert

Mixing the two conce= pts together makes it hard to figure out what is happening. If one was to f= urther add in alignment requirements for cert and content (as has been disc= ussed in some other arenas), the mess will only get worse.

--Kurt Andersen

--089e0102f2127526b304f3bb1984-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 14:40:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC56C1A027D for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDjaZC-CpWJq for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567191A00DD for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5032; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1393886421; x=1395096021; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to; bh=xTTZhaBVnttZ4yJuuz0BHiqJ1TsohxaBmCkT4v8I5Wk=; b=atWxepSGTOLvg+vnKdS07U/Wbu5aNWDz7t/Ui3yxWEg7NBHC53UreU4K ZlxdZyhqJCRPD563ZVrgHOXRepQkM+umVlQj2Qa/kAbxAUVryaP45VFzK fX4/CfQX3KgtvzmQ7RWgj3yDTwwuFqwB+Kj2AGcwBxlzfbYwYSrd55BbL k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhYFAEAEFVOrRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABagwY7wTWBHhZ0giUBAQEDAQEBAWsLBQsLBBQuJzAGE4dxBw7MWRMEjlUEB4MkgRQEmDyGSothgy08gS4k X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,580,1389744000"; d="scan'208,217";a="104963865" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Mar 2014 22:40:21 +0000 Received: from [10.21.75.248] ([10.21.75.248]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s23Mb7dx026926; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 22:40:11 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F2E3A79C-BF8A-4955-8631-1F87F8B2CCB5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 22:40:01 +0000 Message-Id: <2B797CC8-2EBD-4614-A9F7-47521A17C27E@cisco.com> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1049e217-aa39-4375-9424-33d7b68db3d5@email.android.com> <6cd6e1d9-d627-4951-888b-8606469f736e@email.android.com> To: Dave Cridland X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/DKk_yeH9-SgmZ0k7GC5uOdYRH6M Cc: Scott Kitterman , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 22:40:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F2E3A79C-BF8A-4955-8631-1F87F8B2CCB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Mar 3, 2014, at 5:26 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: > I don't think it is, really. Verified or unverified are the = interesting cases. "Dane" may or may not be providing additional, or = alternative, security. If a certificate is verified to have a trust path = back to a known CA with additional DANE constraints, is that "ca" or = "dane", and should I care? Likewise, if CA validation failed but DANE validation succeeded, what = should be indicated? Is certificate pinning, or an = explicitly-configured certificate, something that should get another = designation as it is stronger than CA or DANE validation? -d >=20 >=20 > On 3 March 2014 17:25, Scott Kitterman wrote: >=20 >=20 > On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen = wrote: > >I read the draft and didn't like the same bit. > > > >Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully > >transmitted > >message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined and = I > > > >overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for = misunderstandings. > > > >Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name the > >three > >encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane". >=20 > Those three sound good to me. DANE is a good point. >=20 > Scott K >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --Apple-Mail=_F2E3A79C-BF8A-4955-8631-1F87F8B2CCB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 dave@cridland.net> = wrote:
I don't think it is, really. = Verified or unverified are the interesting cases. "Dane" may or may not = be providing additional, or alternative, security. If a certificate is = verified to have a trust path back to a known CA with additional DANE = constraints, is that "ca" or "dane", and should I = care?

Likewise, if CA validation = failed but DANE validation succeeded, what should be indicated?  Is = certificate pinning, or an explicitly-configured certificate, something = that should get another designation as it is stronger than CA or DANE = validation?

-d




On 3 March = 2014 17:25, Scott Kitterman <scott@kitterman.com> = wrote:


On March 3, 2014 10:16:07 AM EST, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> = wrote:
>I read the draft and didn't like the same bit.
>
>Talking about "temperror" and "permerror" for a successfully
>transmitted
>message sounds very strange. Even if that's actually well defined = and I
>
>overlooked the definitions, I think it's begging for = misunderstandings.
>
>Also, the pass/fail values disregard DANE. I would prefer to name = the
>three
>encrypted cases "unverified", "ca" and "dane".

Those three sound good to me.  DANE is a good point.

Scott K

_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing = list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

= --Apple-Mail=_F2E3A79C-BF8A-4955-8631-1F87F8B2CCB5-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 17:21:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89D31A021E for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hp4t-yyYsEvo for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.bf1.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.253.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4171A0213 for ; 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Mon, 03 Mar 2014 17:21:36 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001, RUFHQUlOCgplcnJubygpIHJldHVybnMgQUxMX1JFU09VUkNFU19BVF9JRVRGCgoKCgoKCgpPbiBNb25kYXksIE1hcmNoIDMsIDIwMTQgMTE6NTcgQU0sIEJyaWFuIEFiZXJsZSA8eG1sNGlldGZAbGl2ZS5jb20.IHdyb3RlOgogCkhpIHdvcmxkLApJdCdzIG1lIGFnYWluLsKgwqBJJ2xsIGp1c3QgYmUgaG9uZXN0IGhlcmUuwqAgSXZlIG5ldmVyIHRvb2sgdGhlIHRpbWUgaW4gbXkgd2hvbGUgY2FyZWVyIHRvIGJlIG9uIGFuIElFVEYgbGlzdCAtIGJ1dCBkb24ndCBjb3VudCBtZSBvdXQgZm9yIHRoYXQuwqAgSXMBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.177.636 References: , , , Message-ID: <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 From: Bill Mills To: Brian Aberle , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1088529044-1581706117-1393896096=:57568" X-Milter-Version: master.31+4-gbc07cd5+ X-CLX-ID: 896100000 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/WLUdS7N06c1PzNU_eOBUjJgJEdE Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bill Mills List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 01:21:56 -0000 ---1088529044-1581706117-1393896096=:57568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EAGAIN=0A=0Aerrno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn= Monday, March 3, 2014 11:57 AM, Brian Aberle wrote:=0A= =0AHi world,=0AIt's me again.=A0=A0I'll just be honest here.=A0 Ive never = took the time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me= out for that.=A0 Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it= ?=A0=A0All .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where= all this Internet stuff came from.=A0 Now I know a forum of Peacock's is n= ot=A0impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we = know that cock fighting is real.=A0=A0I don't know if ya'll are shy, just n= ot real chatty, or are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I do= n't know.=A0 I put together a very complete example and implementation.=A0 = Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my first posting:=0Ahttps:= //onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAnvh0CKD= Y4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip=0A=0AWorld - Would it be helpful if I put all t= his together into an Internet Draft to obtain=A0feedback?=A0 That is the ne= w question. This=A0overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended= for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this= stuff.=A0http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation=0A=A0=0AT= he=A0OLD question=A0was "Should we have an RFC for this?"=0AThe NEW questio= n is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?"=A0 Is that necessary? to = get the attention of=A0cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the=A0apps-d= iscuss admins=A0who said that it=A0could be equally as effective to get goo= d discussion going as it would an Internet Draft.=A0 I believe them, so I t= urned up the color volume a bit.=0A=A0=0AWorld, can I have an ACK, NAK, Pin= g, anything?=A0 Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects.= =A0 If numbers were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.=0A= =A0=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: xml4ietf@live.co= m=0ATo: apps-discuss@ietf.org=0ASubject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing=0ADate: = Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700=0A=0A =0AHello World,=0A=0A=0AI am seeking = community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM.=A0 I h= ave put together several examples that show performance numbers which alone= justify=A0this alternative to SAX or DOM.=A0 There are other reasons as we= ll, primarily=A0- the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in=A0the applic= ation layer.=A0 This issue in discussion here=A0before the community is: Do= we want an RFC for this?=A0 Maybe not.=A0 Maybe so.=A0 We don't all want t= o keep inventing the wheel.=A0 The concept is simple.=A0 It is "XML Seriali= zation".=0AXMLObject Parsing?=A0 We don't need to invent new words, but we = must also note that "Serialization"=A0includes neither=A0Keyed=A0XML Update= s nor Object Instance Reference counting.=A0 We also don't need fancy thing= s that we just don't=A0need,=A0however I have prepared an example using COR= BA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project).=A0 This= =A0concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread:=A0 h= ttp://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721=0A=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Br= ian Aberle=A0=A0=A0=0A=0AI recommend=A0that=A0this thread=A0be continuation= from that one, where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?)= =A0 That is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this c= oncept=A0http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2=A0I have= received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that = article over the past decade++;=A0 The roughness of the draft HTML doc desc= ribing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and refined all encom= passing open source implementation.=0AI had developed/co-developed 2 XML Pa= rsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0.=A0 That is rather simple stuff = in terms of implementation - fact=A0backed by the "Yet Another" factor in a= vailable XML Parsers.=A0 "XML Serialization" is perhaps=A0slightly more com= plex in implementation.=A0=A0We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsin= g" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the=A0even more complex imp= lementation=A0which addresses the needs raised in=A0the above two public th= reads over the past decade.=0ASince the very purpose of=A0IETF is designed = to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can iden= tify a need for it, (each=A0of us would=A0create our own cool version no do= ubt) but collectively we would=A0roll nowhere that way - Should we have an = RFC for this?=A0 That is the question.=0A=A0=0AWorld, what do you think?=A0= =0A=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Aapps-discuss mai= ling list=0Aapps-discuss@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/a= pps-discuss ---1088529044-1581706117-1393896096=:57568 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
EAGAIN
errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF





On Monday, March 3, 2014 11:57 AM, Brian Abe= rle <xml4ietf@live.com> wrote:
Hi world,
It's me again.  I'll just be honest here.  Ive never took t= he time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out f= or that.  Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it?&n= bsp; All .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is wh= ere all this Internet stuff came from.  Now I know a forum of Peacock'= s is not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators be= cause we know that cock fighting is real.  I don't know if ya'll = are shy, just not real chatty, or are too busy, maybe just didn't notice th= e new guy, I don't know.  I put together a very complete example and i= mplementation.  Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my fi= rst posting:
https://onedrive.live.c= om/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&it= hint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would i= t be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Draft to obtain&nb= sp;feedback?  That is the new question. This overview in HTML is = rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and Ch= iefs, but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
 
The OLD question wa= s "Should we have an RFC for this?"
The NEW question is "= Should this be put into an Internet Draft?"  Is that necessary? to get= the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the apps-discuss admi= ns who said that it could be equally as effective to get good dis= cussion going as it would an Internet Draft.  I believe them, so I tur= ned up the color volume a bit.
 
W= orld, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything?  Look at the numbers in = the example program ExIndexObjects.  If numbers were to get in a cock = fight id put all my money on 777.
 
 
From: xm= l4ietf@live.com
To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2= 014 13:02:40 -0700

=0A=0A=0A
Hello World,

=
I am seeking community feedback regarding an= official alternative to SAX and DOM.  I have put together several exa= mples that show performance numbers which alone justify this alternati= ve to SAX or DOM.  There are other reasons as well, primarily - t= he argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer.&nbs= p; This issue in discussion here before the community is: Do we want a= n RFC for this?  Maybe not.  Maybe so.  We don't all want to= keep inventing the wheel.  The concept is simple.  It is "XML Serialization".
=
XMLObject Parsing?  We don't need to invent new words, but we = must also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed X= ML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting.  We also don't need= fancy things that we just don't need, however I have prepared an= example using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS p= roject).  This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustru= p in this thread:  http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721<= /a>
  &n= bsp;       Most recent reply= : Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle   
I recommend that this threa= d be continuation from that one, where we resolve to solve an identifi= ed need (for and RFC?)  That is the question. I have prepared a rough = and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproje= ct.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2&nbs= p;I have received much valuable fee= dback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decad= e++;  The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished a= nd refined all encompassing open source implementation.
<= font face=3D"Calibri">I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to t= he finalization of XML 1.0.  That is rather simple stuff in terms of i= mplementation - fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available X= ML Parsers.  "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex= in implementation.  We need to use the new word "XML Object Pars= ing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more comple= x implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above tw= o public threads over the past decade.
Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all f= rom re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it,= (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but coll= ectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for th= is?  That is the question.
 
= World, what do you think?
 
=09=09 =09 =09=09
=09=09 =09 =09=09
=09=09 =09 =09=09
=09=09 =09 =09=09
= =09=09 =09 =09=09

_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-d= iscuss


---1088529044-1581706117-1393896096=:57568-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 17:37:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120F71A027C for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8l-h3i_4AXFZ for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from snt0-omc3-s44.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s44.snt0.hotmail.com [65.54.51.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1B01A02C2 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from SNT146-W37 ([65.55.90.136]) by snt0-omc3-s44.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:37:21 -0800 X-TMN: [HZbqatmmCnM+qoSNkGMGPbm9Ca5KwZhT] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_93b8eea6-0774-4964-b7f3-e181148ee601_" From: Brian Aberle To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 18:37:21 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2014 01:37:21.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[495D42B0:01CF374A] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/czPyPNhLKO0__YqFJ3WeAxKQIJo Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 01:37:28 -0000 --_93b8eea6-0774-4964-b7f3-e181148ee601_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 C:\Users\The one> ping www.ibm.com Pinging e3062.x.akamaiedge.net [23.7.65.242] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D21ms TTL=3D58 Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D16ms TTL=3D58 Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D14ms TTL=3D58 Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D16ms TTL=3D58 Ping statistics for 23.7.65.242: Packets: Sent =3D 4=2C Received =3D 4=2C Lost =3D 0 (0% loss)=2C Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum =3D 14ms=2C Maximum =3D 21ms=2C Average =3D 16ms C:\Users\The one> =20 OK=2C we're online. :) =20 Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org EAGAIN errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF =20 =20 On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: Hi world=2CIt's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took th= e time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out fo= r that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .c= om aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this I= nternet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed = by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock = fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C= or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. = I put together a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for = not supplying this direct link in my first posting:https://onedrive.live.co= m/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfi= le%2c.zipWorld - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Int= ernet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in= HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C A= dmins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.cod= eproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation The OLD question was "Should we h= ave an RFC for this?"The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Intern= et Draft?" Is that necessary? to get the attention=0A= of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who sai= d that it could be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it = would an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume= a bit. World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the= numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in = a cock fight id put all my money on 777. From: xml4ietf@live.comTo: apps-d= iscuss@ietf.orgSubject: RFC for XMLObject ParsingDate: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 1= 3:02:40 -0700=0A= =0A= =0A= Hello World=2CI am seeking community feedback regarding an official alterna= tive to SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show perfor= mance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There ar= e other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented De= sign" in the application layer. This issue in discussion here before the c= ommunity is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't a= ll want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is=0A= simple. It is "XML Serialization".XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to in= vent new words=2C but we must also note that "Serialization" includes neith= er Keyed XML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't= need fancy things that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an ex= ample using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS proj= ect). This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thr= ead: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 = Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Bria= n Aberle I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C wh= ere we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the ques= tion. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.co= deproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable = feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past de= cade++=3B The roughness of the=0A= draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished= and refined all encompassing open source implementation.I had developed/co= -developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. That is rat= her simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed by the "Yet Anoth= er" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization" is perhaps slight= ly more complex in implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object= Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more comple= x implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two public t= hreads over the past decade.Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to p= revent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify= a need for it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) b= ut collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for = this? That is the question. World=2C what do you think? = =20 _______________________________________________apps-discuss mailing listapp= s-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss = --_93b8eea6-0774-4964-b7f3-e181148ee601_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 =3B
C:\Users\The one>= =3B ping www.ibm.com
Pinging e3062.x.= akamaiedge.net [23.7.65.242] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 23.7.65.2= 42: bytes=3D32 time=3D21ms TTL=3D58
Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 t= ime=3D16ms TTL=3D58
Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D14ms TTL= =3D58
Reply from 23.7.65.242: bytes=3D32 time=3D16ms TTL=3D58
Ping st= atistics for 23.7.65.242:
 =3B =3B =3B Packets: Sent =3D 4= =2C Received =3D 4=2C Lost =3D 0 (0% loss)=2C
Approximate round trip tim= es in milli-seconds:
 =3B =3B =3B Minimum =3D 14ms=2C Maximu= m =3D 21ms=2C Average =3D 16ms
C:\Users\The one>=3B
 =3B
OK= =2C we're =3Bonline. =3B =3B :)
 =3B
Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800
From: wmills@yahoo-i= nc.com
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
To: xml4= ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org

EAGAIN

errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF





=
On= Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com= >=3B wrote:
Hi world=2C
It's me agai= n. =3B =3BI'll just be honest here. =3B Ive never took the time= in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that= . =3B Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? = =3B =3BAll .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is= where all this Internet stuff came from. =3B Now I know a forum of Pea= cock's is not =3Bimpressed by another colorful cool guy. We have modera= tors because we know that cock fighting is real. =3B =3BI don't kno= w if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just= didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. =3B I put together a very c= omplete example and implementation. =3B Forgive me for not supplying th= is direct link in my first posting:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!92= 3&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would it be helpful if I put all this = together into an Internet Draft to obtain =3Bfeedback? =3B That is = the new question. This =3Boverview in HTML is rough and rogue and was n= ot intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for pro= grammers using this stuff. =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
 =3B
The =3BOLD question =3Bwas "Should = we have an RFC for this?"
The NEW question is "Should thi= s be put into an Internet Draft?" =3B Is that necessary? to get the att= ention=0A= of =3Bcocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the =3Bapps-discuss = admins =3Bwho said that it =3Bcould be equally as effective to get = good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. =3B I believe them= =2C so I turned up the color volume a bit.
 =3B
World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? =3B= Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. =3B If numb= ers were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
 =3B
 =3B
From: xml4ietf@live.com
To= : apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsin= g
Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hello World= =2C

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to = SAX and DOM. =3B I have put together several examples that show perform= ance numbers which alone justify =3Bthis alternative to SAX or DOM.&nbs= p=3B There are other reasons as well=2C primarily =3B- the argument for= "Object Oriented Design" in =3Bthe application layer. =3B This iss= ue in discussion here =3Bbefore the community is: Do we want an RFC for= this? =3B Maybe not. =3B Maybe so. =3B We don't all want to ke= ep inventing the wheel. =3B The concept is=0A= simple. =3B It is "XML Serialization".
= XMLObject Parsing? =3B We don't need to invent n= ew words=2C but we must also note that "Serialization" =3Bincludes neit= her =3BKeyed =3BXML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting.=  =3B We also don't need fancy things that we just don't =3Bneed=2C&= nbsp=3Bhowever I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this(a= nd we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). =3B This =3Bconcept was i= dentified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: =3B http://www.artima.c= om/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
 =3B =3B = =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle =3B =3B =3B
I recommend =3Bthat =3Bthis thread =3Bbe continuation from that one=2C where we resol= ve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) =3B That is the question.= I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2=  =3BI ha= ve received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of tha= t article over the past decade++=3B =3B The roughness of the=0A= draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished= and refined all encompassing open source implementation.
I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Par= sers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. =3B That is rather simple st= uff in terms of implementation - fact =3Bbacked by the "Yet Another" fa= ctor in available XML Parsers. =3B "XML Serialization" is perhaps = =3Bslightly more complex in implementation. =3B =3BWe need to use t= he new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to descri= be the =3Beven more complex implementation =3Bwhich addresses the n= eeds raised in =3Bthe above two public threads over the past decade.
= Since the very purpose = of =3BIETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel wh= en we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each =3Bof us would&n= bsp=3Bcreate our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would = =3Broll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? =3B That is = the question.
 =3B
World=2C what do= you think?
 =3B
=
=

_____________________________= __________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/apps-discuss


= --_93b8eea6-0774-4964-b7f3-e181148ee601_-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 19:35:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDEC1A031D; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O69FHXRM_54y; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783181A0313; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:35:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140304033536.31064.62752.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:35:36 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/4-9eclKC3zHHvT3vYnIj5nuYRmk Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-multimailbox-search-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:35:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP4 Multimailbox SEARCH Extension Authors : Barry Leiba Alexey Melnikov Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-multimailbox-search-00.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2014-03-03 Abstract: The IMAP4 specification allows the searching of only the selected mailbox. A user often wants to search multiple mailboxes, and a client that wishes to support this must issue a series of SELECT and SEARCH commands, waiting for each to complete before moving on to the next. This extension allows a client to search multiple mailboxes with one command, limiting round trips delay, and not requiring disruption of the currently selected mailbox. This extension also uses MAILBOX and TAG fields in ESEARCH responses, allowing a client to pipeline the searches if it chooses. This document updates RFC 4466 and obsoletes RFC 6237. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-multimailbox-search/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-multimailbox-search-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 3 23:47:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DE21A03AC for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 23:47:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSe0b80J0ii2 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 23:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BBC1A03D7 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 23:47:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140304074726.8922.17562.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 23:47:26 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/r2-adbNAc_M4LKXIwY3taSyjL5o Subject: [apps-discuss] Milestones changed for appsawg WG X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 07:47:28 -0000 URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charter/ From nobody Tue Mar 4 01:16:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827AB1A0430 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 01:16:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4JtTA23Xf1Z for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 01:16:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABE21A0433 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 01:16:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140304091637.26958.54916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 01:16:37 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/uhkMf54KVthxvsPmfZH8wykOxZg Subject: [apps-discuss] Milestones changed for appsawg WG X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 09:16:40 -0000 Changed milestone "Publication requested for draft-ietf-appsawg-multimailbox-search", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charter/ From nobody Tue Mar 4 02:46:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDE41A029F for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 02:46:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXf4LSi0s-Py for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 02:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1blp0189.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.189]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7721A0101 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 02:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB011.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.240.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.898.11; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 10:46:42 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0888.003; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 10:46:42 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Registering URI scheme conflicts Thread-Index: Ac83ll2jRqdOPvybSRCQWdqHBn58Hw== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 10:46:41 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:160:ad6f:1d4f:d76e:21d2] x-forefront-prvs: 01401330D1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(199002)(189002)(288314003)(15202345003)(33646001)(83322001)(83072002)(56816005)(74662001)(74502001)(31966008)(74876001)(90146001)(74316001)(86612001)(95416001)(92566001)(74706001)(74366001)(93136001)(15975445006)(93516002)(86362001)(19580395003)(2656002)(87936001)(80976001)(85852003)(81686001)(81816001)(76576001)(76176001)(76796001)(94316002)(76786001)(85306002)(50986001)(47976001)(76482001)(81542001)(80022001)(77982001)(59766001)(56776001)(54316002)(65816001)(63696002)(87266001)(46102001)(69226001)(20776003)(51856001)(95666003)(49866001)(4396001)(81342001)(47736001)(54356001)(79102001)(53806001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB011; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:F224FD95.1FC25519.31DCB173.C4DE5BC9.201D5; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/cmvZY_6d4a7iABIrjiWFUcZDZB4 Subject: [apps-discuss] Registering URI scheme conflicts X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 10:46:58 -0000 Someone asked a question about whether conflicts were known to happen, and I said yes. One example is the udp: scheme, where both MPEG and=20 BitTorrent use it with different syntax and different semantics. See http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/prov/udp for the third-party registration of both. RFC 4395 said: > o There MUST NOT already be an entry with the same scheme name. (In > the unfortunate case that there are multiple, different uses of > the same scheme name, the IESG may approve a request to modify an > existing entry to note the separate use.) =20 To which there was already comment in the iri wg's 4385bis source: > [[CREF5: Open Issue: > Must the IESG do this? Why not the Expert Reviewer? --??]] In the case that occurred during the third-party registration experiment, there was no "existing entry" to modify, both were submitted in the same request. To my knowledge the IESG was not consulted, and the RFC is ambiguous as to whether they should have been, it only says they need to approve if modifying an existing entry. -Dave From nobody Tue Mar 4 03:03:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CC81A02F9 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:03:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rcsm_SL3DbVU for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from snt0-omc3-s29.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s29.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B6C1A029F for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from SNT146-W25 ([65.55.90.135]) by snt0-omc3-s29.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:03:12 -0800 X-TMN: [dMxQhXhdyPsbYsVkERuak6z/9uYpIdZT] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_b2bc843a-d402-4870-9619-9eb889dce5e3_" From: Brian Aberle To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 04:03:12 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2014 11:03:12.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[55BBAAC0:01CF3799] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ruU7BzKKf-4sZ6UXy4zgVNub4Sc Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:03:18 -0000 --_b2bc843a-d402-4870-9619-9eb889dce5e3_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a very short summary of the "XMLObject Parsing" concept: (not writt= en by myself) =20 Note that this author uses a new term "XML Data Binding". That is an inter= esting term: it's another new word for "XML Serialization". God save us fr= om slang and marketing rhetoric amid the need to invent new words. Note th= at this author has also documented many other implementations of comparable= design objectives=2C he seems to identify the industry need. This is his = summary found here: http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLDataBinding.htm#xmlfoundation =20 XMLFoundation is an XML data binding framework that can be used with C/C++ = and Java objects=2C as well as COM=2C DCOM=2C and CORBA objects. It include= s its own non-validating parser.=20 Objects that are bound to XML must derive from the XMLObject class and imp= lement the MapXMLTagsToMembers method. This method maps XML attributes and = elements to member variables=2C primarily by calling the MapAttribute and M= apMember functions. MapAttribute is used to map XML attributes to member va= riables. MapMember is used to map XML elements to member variables and to l= ink objects to sub-objects. The latter functionality is necessary when an X= ML element contains a child element that is mapped to a sub-object=2C rathe= r than a member variable.=20 XML elements and attributes that are not mapped in MapXMLTagsToMembers can= still be handled through a virtual method that is implemented by the appli= cation. The application passes a pointer to this method to XMLFoundation's = object factory. When the object factory is reading XML and encounters an el= ement or attribute that has not been mapped=2C it calls the method.=20 XMLObject keeps state data for each member variable=2C such as whether the= variable's value has been changed=2C whether the variable's value has been= set=2C and whether the variable's value should be serialized to XML. XMLOb= ject maintains this state data when its methods (such as SetMember) are cal= led. However=2C applications must maintain the state data themselves (such = as by calling setMemberDirty) when setting member variables directly.=20 Applications transfer data between XML (as a string) and objects with the = FromXML and ToXML methods in XMLObject. XMLFoundation has a number of optio= ns for serializing data as XML=2C including ordering child elements alphabe= tically or in their original order=2C only serializing data that has been u= pdated by the application=2C excluding mapped or unmapped attributes=2C and= including a DOCTYPE declaration.=20 XMLFoundation can cache objects that have an ID=2C which can be set direct= ly by the application or from an oid attribute in XML. It also contains imp= lementations of common classes (such as lists=2C hashtables=2C stacks=2C an= d trees) and utilities (such as sorts=2C performance times=2C and INI profi= les).=20 =20 Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 08:44:10 +0000 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing From: dave@cridland.net To: xml4ietf@live.com Any chance you could write a paragraph explaining what you're aiming to wri= te a specification for? Either that=2C or sketch out an actual I-D. Without= that=2C you appear to be using lots of new terms for which I have no defin= ition=2C and asking me to read through a bunch of articles elsewhere. I'm s= imply lacking the background here.=0A= Something without quite as much slang and marketing rhetoric might help. Also=2C as Bill says=2C most people are either at=2C or heavily engaged wit= h=2C the IETF meeting in London=2C so expect a lag before response.=0A= Dave. = --_b2bc843a-d402-4870-9619-9eb889dce5e3_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is a very short summary of = the "XMLObject Parsing" concept: (not written by myself)
 =3B
Not= e that this author uses a new term "XML Data Binding". =3B That is an i= nteresting term: it's =3Banother new word for "XML Serialization". = =3B God save us from =3Bslang and marketing rhetoric =3Bamid the ne= ed to invent new words. =3B Note that this =3Bauthor has also docum= ented many other implementations of comparable design objectives=2C he seem= s to identify the industry need. =3B This is his summary found here:= http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLDataBinding.htm#xmlfoundation
 = =3B
XMLFoundation is an XML data binding framework that can be used with= C/C++ and Java objects=2C as well as COM=2C DCOM=2C and CORBA objects. It = includes its own non-validating parser.

Objects that are bound to = XML must derive from the XMLObject class and implement the MapXMLTagsToMemb= ers method. This method maps XML attributes and elements to member variable= s=2C primarily by calling the MapAttribute and MapMember functions. MapAttr= ibute is used to map XML attributes to member variables. MapMember is used = to map XML elements to member variables and to link objects to sub-objects.= The latter functionality is necessary when an XML element contains a child= element that is mapped to a sub-object=2C rather than a member variable. <= br>
XML elements and attributes that are not mapped in MapXMLTagsToMemb= ers can still be handled through a virtual method that is implemented by th= e application. The application passes a pointer to this method to XMLFounda= tion's object factory. When the object factory is reading XML and encounter= s an element or attribute that has not been mapped=2C it calls the method. =

XMLObject keeps state data for each member variable=2C such as whe= ther the variable's value has been changed=2C whether the variable's value = has been set=2C and whether the variable's value should be serialized to XM= L. XMLObject maintains this state data when its methods (such as SetMember)= are called. However=2C applications must maintain the state data themselve= s (such as by calling setMemberDirty) when setting member variables directl= y.

Applications transfer data between XML (as a string) and object= s with the FromXML and ToXML methods in XMLObject. XMLFoundation has a numb= er of options for serializing data as XML=2C including ordering child eleme= nts alphabetically or in their original order=2C only serializing data that= has been updated by the application=2C excluding mapped or unmapped attrib= utes=2C and including a DOCTYPE declaration.

XMLFoundation can cac= he objects that have an ID=2C which can be set directly by the application = or from an oid attribute in XML. It also contains implementations of common= classes (such as lists=2C hashtables=2C stacks=2C and trees) and utilities= (such as sorts=2C performance times=2C and INI profiles).

 =3B=
Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 08:44:10 +0000
= Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
From: dave@cridlan= d.net
To: xml4ietf@live.com

Any chance you could write a p= aragraph explaining what you're aiming to write a specification for? Either= that=2C or sketch out an actual I-D. Without that=2C you appear to be usin= g lots of new terms for which I have no definition=2C and asking me to read= through a bunch of articles elsewhere. I'm simply lacking the background h= ere.
=0A=

 =3B
Something without quite as much slang and marke= ting rhetoric might help.

Also=2C as Bill says=2C = most people are either at=2C or heavily engaged with=2C the IETF meeting in= London=2C so expect a lag before response.
=0A=

Dave.
= --_b2bc843a-d402-4870-9619-9eb889dce5e3_-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 03:37:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9F21A069C for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:37:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SiYEZIn-0U2f for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x229.google.com (mail-pb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53E41A02CE for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id jt11so5113222pbb.14 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:37:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=xKX166YicHIJPni2mwUIFfP+XoeR1s8gfrs1MFMIuzQ=; b=0g2fUkbB+jxbRynf9Q6zXkR2ieCvlBW2j/LC1l/kUWbCWU6e2jG/NpGybyXEPWX89F vtk3abNGl0QonlDsNGyHsMI0lRRBxCtXX+lMjenYfYLNEpj5eoKMHk+PRYnR7Fy9+mkV dOBWTgctmOndYd7hVd4w4p7wlKa+LbG4eDfy5vGvbosnnQWR+HbZuoIo1mXYNLtW52ue YBmUKhk5bLln3rfT3OKVXulT4PbKiM0liN9hHEDrEa+Y6SeL4Z/dR05QKm0BnxH5voed rBsIrIRDZLAEHxalEk5kAsx2S18VaSicq3i+sD25H8SSZbuy6Nw9DKk1AiomJx9gpwEk 7cYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.163.164 with SMTP id yj4mr5324660pab.91.1393933065864; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:37:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Brian Aberle Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86ec5e3b49fb04f3c6555d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/CJay20RMdPh5f-3a76oPfDk7pZc Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:37:51 -0000 --047d7b86ec5e3b49fb04f3c6555d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and not us? On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Brian Aberle wrote: > Hi world, > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my > whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. > Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside > this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet > stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by > another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock > fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or > are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know. I put > together a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not > supplying this direct link in my first posting: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet > Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML > is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and > Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff. > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that > necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked > the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to > get good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them, > so I turned up the color volume a bit. > > World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything? Look at the numbers in the > example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock fight id > put all my money on 777. > > > ------------------------------ > From: xml4ietf@live.com > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > Hello World, > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX > and DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance > numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are > other reasons as well, primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented > Design" in the application layer. This issue in discussion here before the > community is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't > all want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML > Serialization". > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words, but we must also > note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object > Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just > don't need, however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need > this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was > identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: > > http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=226&thread=204721 > > Most recent reply: > Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one, where we > resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I > have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received > much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article > over the past decade++; The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing > this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing > open source implementation. > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of > XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - > fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML > Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need > to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" > to describe the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs > raised in the above two public threads over the past decade. > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from > re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, > (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we > would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the > question. > > World, what do you think? > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > > --047d7b86ec5e3b49fb04f3c6555d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the p= urview of the W3C and not us?


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Brian Aberle <xm= l4ietf@live.com> wrote:
Hi world,
It's me again.=A0=A0I'll just be= honest here.=A0 Ive never took the time in my whole career to be on an IET= F list - but don't count me out for that.=A0 Isn't this the place w= here the old school masters kick it?=A0=A0All .com aside this is about .edu= - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet stuff came from.=A0 N= ow I know a forum of Peacock's is not=A0impressed by another colorful c= ool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is real.=A0= =A0I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or are too = busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know.=A0 I put = together a very complete example and implementation.=A0 Forgive me for not = supplying this direct link in my first posting:
htt= ps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AA= nvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet= Draft to obtain=A0feedback?=A0 That is the new question. This=A0overview i= n HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admi= ns, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff.=A0http://w= ww.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
=A0
The=A0OLD question=A0was "Should we have an RFC for this?"=
The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?&qu= ot;=A0 Is that necessary? to get the attention of=A0cocks that squawk in th= is spot? I asked the=A0apps-discuss admins=A0who said that it=A0could be eq= ually as effective to get good discussion going as it would an Internet Dra= ft.=A0 I believe them, so I turned up the color volume a bit.
=A0
World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything?=A0 Look at the number= s in the example program ExIndexObjects.=A0 If numbers were to get in a coc= k fight id put all my money on 777.
=A0
=A0
From: xml4ietf@live.com
To: apps-discuss= @ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 20= 14 13:02:40 -0700

Hello World,

I am seeking community feedback regarding an official altern= ative to SAX and DOM.=A0 I have put together several examples that show per= formance numbers which alone justify=A0this alternative to SAX or DOM.=A0 T= here are other reasons as well, primarily=A0- the argument for "Object= Oriented Design" in=A0the application layer.=A0 This issue in discuss= ion here=A0before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this?=A0 Maybe no= t.=A0 Maybe so.=A0 We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel.=A0 Th= e concept is simple.=A0 It is "XML Serialization".<= /font>

XMLObject Parsing?=A0 We don't need to invent new words, but we mus= t also note that "Serialization"=A0includes neither=A0Keyed=A0XML= Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting.=A0 We also don't need = fancy things that we just don't=A0need,=A0however I have prepared an ex= ample using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS proj= ect).=A0 This=A0concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this= thread:=A0 http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread= =3D204721

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle=A0=A0=A0

I = recommend=A0that=A0this thread=A0be continuat= ion from that one, where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RF= C?)=A0 That is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on thi= s concept=A0ht= tp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2=A0I have received much valuable= feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past d= ecade++;=A0 The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff, shou= ld not reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source imp= lementation.

I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of= XML 1.0.=A0 That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact= =A0backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers.= =A0 "XML Serialization" is perhaps=A0slightly more complex in imp= lementation.=A0=A0We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing"= ; or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the=A0even more co= mplex implementation=A0which addresses the needs raised in=A0the above two = public threads over the past decade.

Since the very purpose of=A0IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-= inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, (each= =A0of us would=A0create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we = would=A0roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this?=A0 That is = the question.
=A0
World, what do you think?

=A0
=
=

_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss


--047d7b86ec5e3b49fb04f3c6555d-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 03:54:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479C61A0729 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:54:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id km03GuRRHE8I for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x22b.google.com (mail-ob0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F3E1A06C7 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id wn1so2584495obc.30 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bYLITq7C4gWDu3kv0FpgbTeV7GjsCQ3wjKe3oktaACE=; b=FP2HDdiWp1gjgYKJJEt/yMrr2IguW16VQACWImdQO+7EO+F2yderUAd507voywm34E CgB7Pmis/n9gwBY5rT+iJ+IQGWdV/QFps99v1T1VFjT18ccf0afdmfhvbmHyA29FnMoU Cy4/AJr2srMfb4CuHyjy/OFNMKoQsMqpqujY8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=bYLITq7C4gWDu3kv0FpgbTeV7GjsCQ3wjKe3oktaACE=; b=ObhtJiC2RjlQ+HlPsRySZqKY0ImxhFKCpJp76nt3sd8eU8aTzThD57DOCDThJSfguB bV5vBbnhHRTsp8ROJWxHn6HXKSD+ke1fpfi1/WaF802LPTpMV9nAe/GEXsaQZsZy3pHN GT9ASH4To0f0/8Awc5sKwFbDRPghvBC6hN/LtREQvGYlnX/NJ32jCzWF7/1rCgSErYX4 oolKax/WMDj3kfTL+lheBr/yEsSqXsy+Mdv6oMDiqc+CEDPDFvVxSFuV79dSnjLLbQJM uQ4sqNTKU7Hxes/sFk7KophhN/HtkwcFzvX/dTX7UM4DEwWD3Fz2/eYj+aHKEtw0BEwN gC1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnnUmgWA4BZtXzSLUfkaexfFim4lv4+m7Tb4oEXmLr1auEliK4CBq5SgwvMmJUpZn7mX97U MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.29.98 with SMTP id j2mr31760371obh.30.1393934071711; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.58.41 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:54:31 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c4842f629204f3c69183 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/R6HVXBBw2yx4eAlYTutENXk_-dg Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:54:37 -0000 --001a11c2c4842f629204f3c69183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes; unless there's a wire protocol involved, of course. But I get the impression there isn't in this case. On 4 March 2014 11:37, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C > and not us? > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Brian Aberle wrote: > >> Hi world, >> It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my >> whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. >> Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside >> this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet >> stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by >> another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock >> fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or >> are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know. I put >> together a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not >> supplying this direct link in my first posting: >> >> https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip >> >> World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet >> Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML >> is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and >> Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff. >> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation >> >> The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" >> The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that >> necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked >> the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to >> get good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them, >> so I turned up the color volume a bit. >> >> World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything? Look at the numbers in >> the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock fight >> id put all my money on 777. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> From: xml4ietf@live.com >> To: apps-discuss@ietf.org >> Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing >> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 >> >> Hello World, >> >> I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX >> and DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance >> numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are >> other reasons as well, primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented >> Design" in the application layer. This issue in discussion here before the >> community is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't >> all want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML >> Serialization". >> >> XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words, but we must also >> note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object >> Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just >> don't need, however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need >> this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was >> identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: >> >> http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=226&thread=204721 >> >> Most recent reply: >> Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle >> >> >> I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one, where we >> resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I >> have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept >> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have >> received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that >> article over the past decade++; The roughness of the draft HTML doc >> describing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and refined all >> encompassing open source implementation. >> >> I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of >> XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - >> fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML >> Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need >> to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" >> to describe the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs >> raised in the above two public threads over the past decade. >> >> Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from >> re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, >> (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we >> would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the >> question. >> >> World, what do you think? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> apps-discuss mailing list >> apps-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > > --001a11c2c4842f629204f3c69183 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes; unless there's a wire protocol involved, of cours= e. But I get the impression there isn't in this case.


On 4 March 2014 11:37, = Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
Aren't the definitions = of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and not us?


On Mon, Mar 3, 20= 14 at 7:57 PM, Brian Aberle <xml4ietf@live.com> wrote:
Hi world,
It's me again.=A0=A0I'll just be= honest here.=A0 Ive never took the time in my whole career to be on an IET= F list - but don't count me out for that.=A0 Isn't this the place w= here the old school masters kick it?=A0=A0All .com aside this is about .edu= - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet stuff came from.=A0 N= ow I know a forum of Peacock's is not=A0impressed by another colorful c= ool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is real.=A0= =A0I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or are too = busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know.=A0 I put = together a very complete example and implementation.=A0 Forgive me for not = supplying this direct link in my first posting:
htt= ps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AA= nvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet= Draft to obtain=A0feedback?=A0 That is the new question. This=A0overview i= n HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admi= ns, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff.=A0http://w= ww.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
=A0
The=A0OLD question=A0was "Should we have an RFC for this?"=
The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?&qu= ot;=A0 Is that necessary? to get the attention of=A0cocks that squawk in th= is spot? I asked the=A0apps-discuss admins=A0who said that it=A0could be eq= ually as effective to get good discussion going as it would an Internet Dra= ft.=A0 I believe them, so I turned up the color volume a bit.
=A0
World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything?=A0 Look at the number= s in the example program ExIndexObjects.=A0 If numbers were to get in a coc= k fight id put all my money on 777.
=A0
=A0
From: xml4ietf@live.com
To: apps-discuss= @ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 20= 14 13:02:40 -0700

Hello World,

=

I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SA= X and DOM.=A0 I have put together several examples that show performance nu= mbers which alone justify=A0this alternative to SAX or DOM.=A0 There are ot= her reasons as well, primarily=A0- the argument for "Object Oriented D= esign" in=A0the application layer.=A0 This issue in discussion here=A0= before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this?=A0 Maybe not.=A0 Maybe= so.=A0 We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel.=A0 The concept i= s simple.=A0 It is "XML Serialization".

XMLObject Parsing?=A0 We don't need to invent new words, but we mus= t also note that "Serialization"=A0includes neither=A0Keyed=A0XML= Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting.=A0 We also don't need = fancy things that we just don't=A0need,=A0however I have prepared an ex= ample using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS proj= ect).=A0 This=A0concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this= thread:=A0 http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread= =3D204721

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle=A0=A0=A0

I recommend= =A0that=A0this thread=A0be continuation from = that one, where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?)=A0 Th= at is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept= =A0http://www.= codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2=A0I have received much valuable feedback= in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++;= =A0 The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff, should not r= eflect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implementat= ion.

I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of= XML 1.0.=A0 That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact= =A0backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers.= =A0 "XML Serialization" is perhaps=A0slightly more complex in imp= lementation.=A0=A0We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing"= ; or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the=A0even more co= mplex implementation=A0which addresses the needs raised in=A0the above two = public threads over the past decade.

Since the very purpose of=A0IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-= inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, (each= =A0of us would=A0create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we = would=A0roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this?=A0 That is = the question.
=A0
World, what do you think?

=A0
=
=

___________________________________________= ____
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss



_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss


--001a11c2c4842f629204f3c69183-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 06:29:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BE71A007D for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:28:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yk18siF1DB_f for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from snt0-omc4-s43.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc4-s43.snt0.hotmail.com [65.54.51.94]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3581A0119 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from SNT146-W32 ([65.55.90.199]) by snt0-omc4-s43.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:28:52 -0800 X-TMN: [f5WFk+7u+YTrJb9IMqsrRhni1K6xnAIV] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_7a9f6f8f-c449-4926-9f78-85bf4a8e02fc_" From: Brian Aberle To: Dave Cridland Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 07:28:51 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2014 14:28:52.0449 (UTC) FILETIME=[10EBAD10:01CF37B6] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/BdYMU8Eiyf_n9BnZzQaYDzUgM1o Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:28:58 -0000 --_7a9f6f8f-c449-4926-9f78-85bf4a8e02fc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct - this is not a wire protocol=2C it's a design approach and an algo= rithm=2C initially created to add a native XML get() and set() to all CORBA= objects. Of course this discussion does not belong at OMG because it appl= ies equally to COM/DCOM=2C and for that matter even MFC GUI objects are sim= plified with this design approach (using no SAX and no DOM and no W3C recog= nized approach) - see the XMLDialog example. =20 Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:54:31 +0000 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing From: dave@cridland.net To: superuser@gmail.com CC: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org Yes=3B unless there's a wire protocol involved=2C of course. But I get the = impression there isn't in this case. On 4 March 2014 11:37=2C Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: =0A= Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and= not us? =0A= On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C Brian Aberle wrot= e: =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi world=2C It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my wh= ole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't = this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this i= s about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this Internet stuff c= ame from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another colo= rful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is rea= l. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too bus= y=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. I put together = a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplying t= his direct link in my first posting: =0A= =0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip =0A= =0A= World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML is = rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C = and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.= com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =0A= =0A= =20 The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that n= ecessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked t= he apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to ge= t good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C s= o I turned up the color volume a bit. =0A= =0A= =20 World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the numbers= in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock f= ight id put all my money on 777. =20 =20 From: xml4ietf@live.com =0A= =0A= To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 =0A= =0A= =0A= Hello World=2C =0A= =0A= I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX an= d DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numbers = which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other reason= s as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the a= pplication layer. This issue in discussion here before the community is: D= o we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to kee= p inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". =0A= =0A= XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must also n= ote that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object Inst= ance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just don'= t need=2C however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need thi= s(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identified q= uickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/f= lat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 =0A= =0A= Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by = Brian Aberle =20 =0A= =0A= I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we reso= lve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I hav= e prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproject.c= om/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedback in= the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++=3B = The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not ref= lect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implementatio= n. =0A= =0A= I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML= 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed= by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization"= is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use the ne= w word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe th= e even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in the = above two public threads over the past decade. =0A= =0A= Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-invent= ing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each of u= s would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would rol= l nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the question. =0A= =0A= =20 World=2C what do you think? =20 =0A= _______________________________________________ =0A= apps-discuss mailing list =0A= apps-discuss@ietf.org =0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________ =0A= apps-discuss mailing list =0A= apps-discuss@ietf.org =0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss =0A= = --_7a9f6f8f-c449-4926-9f78-85bf4a8e02fc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct - this is not a wire pro= tocol=2C it's a design approach and an algorithm=2C initially created to ad= d a native XML get() and set() to all CORBA objects. =3B Of course this=  =3Bdiscussion does not belong =3Bat OMG because it applies equally= to COM/DCOM=2C and for =3Bthat matter even MFC GUI objects are =3B= simplified with this design approach (using no =3BSAX =3Band no DOM= and no W3C recognized approach) - see the XMLDialog example.
 =3B
Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:54:31 +0000
Su= bject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
From: dave@cridland.= net
To: superuser@gmail.com
CC: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@iet= f.org

Yes=3B unless there's a wire protocol involve= d=2C of course. But I get the impression there isn't in this case.


On 4 March= 2014 11:37=2C Murray S. Kucherawy <=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com>=3B wrote:
=0A=
Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk= within the purview of the W3C and not us?
=0A=

On Mon=2C Mar = 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B= wrote:
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hi world=2C
It's me again. =3B =3BI'll jus= t be honest here. =3B Ive never took the time in my whole career to be = on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. =3B Isn't this the p= lace where the old school masters kick it? =3B =3BAll .com aside th= is is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this Internet stu= ff came from. =3B Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not =3Bimpress= ed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that co= ck fighting is real. =3B =3BI don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just n= ot real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy= =2C I don't know. =3B I put together a very complete example and implem= entation. =3B Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my first= posting:
=0A= =0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Baut= hkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
=0A= =0A=
World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet= Draft to obtain =3Bfeedback? =3B That is the new question. This&nb= sp=3Boverview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Guru= s=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff= . =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation=
=0A= =0A=  =3B
The =3BOLD question =3Bwas "Should we have an RFC for t= his?"
The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?"&n= bsp=3B Is that necessary? to get the attention of =3Bcocks that squawk = in this spot? I asked the =3Bapps-discuss admins =3Bwho said that i= t =3Bcould be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it w= ould an Internet Draft. =3B I believe them=2C so I turned up the color = volume a bit.
=0A= =0A=  =3B
World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? =3B = Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. =3B If numbe= rs were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
 =3B
&= nbsp=3B
From: xml4ietf@live.com
=0A= =0A= To: apps-discuss= @ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb = 2014 13:02:40 -0700

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hello World=2C
=0A= =0A=
= I am seeking = community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM. = =3B I have put together several examples that show performance numbers whic= h alone justify =3Bthis alternative to SAX or DOM. =3B There are ot= her reasons as well=2C primarily =3B- the argument for "Object Oriented= Design" in =3Bthe application layer. =3B This issue in discussion = here =3Bbefore the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? =3B Ma= ybe not. =3B Maybe so. =3B We don't all want to keep inventing the = wheel. =3B The concept is simple. =3B It is "XML Serialization".
=0A= =0A= XMLObject Par= sing? =3B We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must also note th= at "Serialization" =3Bincludes neither =3BKeyed =3BXML Updates = nor Object Instance Reference counting. =3B We also don't need fancy th= ings that we just don't =3Bneed=2C =3Bhowever I have prepared an ex= ample using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS proj= ect). =3B This =3Bconcept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustr= up in this thread: =3B http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum= =3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
=0A= =0A=
 =3B=  =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B Most rec= ent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM = by Brian Aberle =3B=  =3B =3B
=0A= =0A=
I recommend =3Bthat = =3Bthis thread =3Bbe continuation from th= at one=2C where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) = =3B That is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this c= oncept =3B= http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 =3BI have received much v= aluable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the= past decade++=3B =3B The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing th= is stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing= open source implementation.
=0A= =0A= I had develop= ed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. =3B= That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact =3Bbacke= d by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. =3B "XML Serial= ization" is perhaps =3Bslightly more complex in implementation. =3B=  =3BWe need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Se= rialization++" to describe the =3Beven more complex implementation = =3Bwhich addresses the needs raised in =3Bthe above two public threads = over the past decade.
=0A= =0A= Since the ver= y purpose of =3BIETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing th= e wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each =3Bof = us would =3Bcreate our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we w= ould =3Broll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? =3B= That is the question.
=0A= =0A=  =3B
World=2C what do you think?
&nbs= p=3B
<= /div>
=0A=
_______________________________________________
=0A= apps-discuss mailing list
=0A= apps-discuss@iet= f.org
=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
=0A=

=0A=
_______________________________________________
=0A= apps-discuss mailing list
=0A= apps-discuss@ietf.org
=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
=0A=

= --_7a9f6f8f-c449-4926-9f78-85bf4a8e02fc_-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 06:41:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E861A022E for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:41:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Jd2hwKSWTGK for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972531A0157 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8838A4F70CE; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36OLKMgP729J; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D6A4F70EB; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528DF4F70EA; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 1IfZLLcfj8eG; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FD84F70CE; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:40:56 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: Kurt Andersen Message-ID: <241959289.48974.1393944056931.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <1757654710.22901.1393872345123.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <155676168.27293.1393876313356.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48973_1999330328.1393944056930" X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: CAq/KbJLj2XeH5Txe64EoZwpd9AUCQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/f1jz_PMWktMy4KYx2ebipKVRt4s Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:41:03 -0000 ------=_Part_48973_1999330328.1393944056930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kurt Andersen" > To: "Franck Martin" > Cc: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" , "IETF Apps Discuss" > > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 10:13:38 PM > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Franck Martin < franck@peachymango.org > > wrote: > > The "tls" method can have the following results: > > > none: the message was sent in clear. > > > pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was > > > verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. > > > softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > self signed. > > > fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of > > > the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... > > > temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able > > > to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for > > > instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. > > > permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate > > > was not verified by the MTA server. > > I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the very least, > one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them. > To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects to this: > 1) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS > 2) if TLS, how "good" is the client cert > Mixing the two concepts together makes it hard to figure out what is > happening. If one was to further add in alignment requirements for cert and > content (as has been discussed in some other arenas), the mess will only get > worse. You note that I tried to put in "pass" only a result which is TLS and "verified" via CA or DANE. A self signed certificate, should not give a "pass". From there you can trust enough the Subject provided by the client Certificate to do some forms of alignments. ------=_Part_48973_1999330328.1393944056930 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: "Kurt Andersen" <kboth@drkurt.com= >
To: "Franck Martin" <franck@peachymango.org>
Cc:= "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, "IETF Apps Discus= s" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 10:1= 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-r= esults-tls-00.txt

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at= 11:51 AM, Franck Martin <franck@peachymango.org> wrote= :
The "tls" method can have the following resu= lts:

   none: the message was sent in clear.

   pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificat= e was
   verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]= .

   softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certif= icate is
   self signed.

   fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificat= e is
   not valid.  It is advised to use comments to indicate the= nature of
   the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted C= A,...

   temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was n= ot able
   to verify the client certificate at this time.  This may = indicate for
   instance that the server could not fetch the CRL.

   permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certi= ficate
   was not verified by the MTA server. 
I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the= very least, one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them.<= br>

To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects = to this:
1) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS
<= /div>
2) if TLS, how "good" is the client cert

=
Mixing the two concepts together makes it hard to figure out what is h= appening. If one was to further add in alignment requirements for cert and = content (as has been discussed in some other arenas), the mess will only ge= t worse.
You note that I tried= to put in "pass" only a result which is TLS and "verified" via CA or DANE.= A self signed certificate, should not give a "pass". From there you can tr= ust enough the Subject provided by the client Certificate to do some forms = of alignments.
------=_Part_48973_1999330328.1393944056930-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 09:16:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C424C1A020B for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 09:16:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGvmTFR8DOK0 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 09:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim.winserver.com (winserver.com [208.247.131.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F811A0227 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 09:16:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=6181; t=1393953374; h=Received:Received: Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject: List-ID; bh=1fxG2Rpg1E6Sw5JgVkSEdnLs+Mk=; b=EPA1a8IgwEEFVGB9jYbp FP8uDBfxCPGsiMel3tItFG7bWTJqzGhzLOfXy51dn4zKfkLXSVf3kOsyPLjLxv+b kh8gfEInSNKJXyvUAeVKf7Iz2F5SFmTOejr8YqEEhrgCL6RAyJFLiCU/j1bHOe8H afcaTaiVzImTBzOX7ae5NMI= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:16:14 -0500 Authentication-Results: dkim.winserver.com; dkim=pass header.d=beta.winserver.com header.s=tms1 header.i=beta.winserver.com; adsp=pass policy=all author.d=isdg.net asl.d=beta.winserver.com; Received: from beta.winserver.com (hector.wildcatblog.com [208.247.131.23]) by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 3235828750.30490.2336; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:16:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=beta.winserver.com; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/relaxed; l=6181; t=1393952723; h=Received:Received: Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=tcLF70q 94rpKh+dcSj2EJ2X1ZT0hK6yyFEy4IJKnPvA=; b=pYm2cKPFlG6gSpixRmQiTBd WT8R/dnw5st2GVM1CHFJd0fhlPQKiiq7UEK2FEcpSkAEeioScZ4A5E0ms3sOT9iL CVhPE2eXOOXqJj1qYBQ0PdJGD4dQaoS8LQPPBB2TtdPeHZu0nQGjHIhuVAcUZ/Xl wqj9HbRUCIKWjeZhL4B0= Received: by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:05:23 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([99.121.4.27]) by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 2682102021.9.5724; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:05:22 -0500 Message-ID: <53160A5B.8080806@isdg.net> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0500 From: Hector Santos Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Aberle , Dave Cridland References: , , , , , , In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/vN_LVaJ98NDNmIw145Bco7QYep4 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 17:16:26 -0000 I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of "broad" industry and peer review, more importantly for all sizes of interest. I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to include application level recommended design, implementation and deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" and these days, we have so many argumentations and levels of communications, that yes, today XML is highly considered as a "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. -- HLS On 3/4/2014 9:28 AM, Brian Aberle wrote: > Correct - this is not a wire protocol, it's a design approach and an algorithm, initially created to add a native XML get() and set() to all CORBA objects. Of course this discussion does not belong at OMG because it applies equally to COM/DCOM, and for that matter even MFC GUI objects are simplified with this design approach (using no SAX and no DOM and no W3C recognized approach) - see the XMLDialog example. > > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:54:31 +0000 > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > From: dave@cridland.net > To: superuser@gmail.com > CC: xml4ietf@live.com; apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Yes; unless there's a wire protocol involved, of course. But I get the impression there isn't in this case. > > On 4 March 2014 11:37, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and not us? > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Brian Aberle wrote: > > > > > Hi world, > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know. I put together a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my first posting: > > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip > > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them, so I turned up the color volume a bit. > > > > World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything? Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777. > > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > > > > Hello World, > > > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other reasons as well, primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". > > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words, but we must also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just don't need, however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=226&thread=204721 > > > Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one, where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++; The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implementation. > > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two public threads over the past decade. > > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the question. > > > > World, what do you think? > From nobody Tue Mar 4 13:41:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F461A0177 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:41:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ebG3uNrVqnhg for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x230.google.com (mail-pb0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7A31A00F0 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id md12so111572pbc.35 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:41:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=q3eU1seeaR1y5Rcs7xV65EGlEQUQNZm1m1WOLlpiMqI=; b=dTxjHI0L8gKuR3xz6rHQzsWkEb2zUkXqyxcxpArhghMcWHYk5Jt2gHYm7yudO1PKtw AxTAFhntRnr8hItyGc+mVHA1Buzoxa5SG3APmQDCqGRvabOAGOLbdZ/8pBW5oPZ4fzUx VTpnnojE0HBtnGUk2NnrImhX+dIHuaj0lzUm5w2Zl3/DGiaJi7KaY+4FDXWldejtC+If s7MOhM98FUsOOeYzeDUtMIcsTWy7JgPPq/4a65T1EImXR/W7HA/lkdX15y6P5JRYPxLR A4JNiHvwxevHcn4cbVrk5s0OOd5aceAIxEZRTeXNZ4WJBwc+OBxgBYazk56/GeiSvZDM YHbA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.163.138 with SMTP id yi10mr2046977pab.95.1393969304374; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:41:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:41:44 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86f2623716a404f3cec539 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/kbmkJH5sHPmNMfZjdJBYEk9tIY8 Subject: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 21:41:50 -0000 --047d7b86f2623716a404f3cec539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 WEIRDS met today and discussed what we believe are its remaining issues. The group discussed the outcome of a design team meeting that tried to address two issues at once: the issue an imposed URI structure (draft-nottingham-uri-get-off-my-lawn) and the methodology by which to find an authoritative registry that can further delegate. Both issues are being addressed by allowing a key-value table that supports longest-match lookups resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a query that will either return an answer or a redirection. The WG will continue this discussion on its mailing list and select a path forward. Participants were asked to open tracker items for any remaining issues on the open documents (query, redirection, bootstrapping) so they can be driven to resolution. The discussion of the publication of the table (IANA being the logical point) ventured into the complications that come with the IETF creating domain registries and imposing policies potentially outside of its purview. This issue has not been completely resolved but we believe there are ways forward through careful crafting of the language and keeping the IANA section to an absolute minimum. Finally, a report was given of interoperability tests performed prior to the IETF meeting. No specification issues were discovered and a fair number of server as well as client implementations interoperate. A couple of issues were identified and we are at or close to consensus on resolution. The chairs believe that the work of the group may conclude between now and Toronto, so this may have been our final meeting. -MSK and Olaf, co-chairs, WEIRDS --047d7b86f2623716a404f3cec539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WEIRDS met today and discussed what we believe are its rem= aining issues.

The group discussed the outcome of a design team meeting that tried to=20 address two issues at once: the issue an imposed URI structure=20 (draft-nottingham-uri-get-off-my-lawn) and the methodology by which to find= an authoritative registry that can further delegate.=A0 Both issues are be= ing addressed by allowing a key-value table that supports longest-match loo= kups resulting in=A0 URI templates that are then=20 used to construct a query that will either return an answer or a=20 redirection.=A0 The WG will continue this discussion on its mailing list an= d select a path forward.=A0 Participants were asked to open tracker items f= or any remaining issues on the open documents (query, redirection, bootstra= pping) so they can be driven to resolution.

The discussion of the publication of the table (IANA being the logical=20 point) ventured into the complications that come with the IETF creating=20 domain registries and imposing policies potentially outside of its purview.= =A0 This issue has not been=20 completely resolved but we believe there are ways forward through=20 careful crafting of the language and keeping the IANA section to an=20 absolute minimum.

Finally, a report was given of interoperability tests performed prior to=20 the IETF meeting.=A0 No specification issues were discovered and a fair num= ber of=20 server as well as client implementations interoperate.=A0 A couple of issue= s were identified and we are at or close to consensus on resolution.

The chairs believe that the work of the group may conclude between now and = Toronto, so this may have been our final meeting.

-MSK and Olaf, co-chairs, WEIRDS
--047d7b86f2623716a404f3cec539-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 13:43:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2321A0332 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KLvK9glcA6br for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway03.websitewelcome.com (gateway03.websitewelcome.com [69.93.196.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A46C1A033D for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by gateway03.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 66C0B607388B7; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:35:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from colorado.websitewelcome.com (colorado.websitewelcome.com [192.185.82.155]) by gateway03.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D0D60738891 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:35:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from [70.113.58.209] (port=49565 helo=[192.168.200.35]) by colorado.websitewelcome.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WKYeW-0002KP-2i; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:35:52 -0600 Message-ID: <5314D990.5040405@paulgrosso.name> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:35:44 -0600 From: Paul Grosso User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20140303100457.22583.16203.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140303100457.22583.16203.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - colorado.websitewelcome.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - paulgrosso.name X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 70.113.58.209 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([192.168.200.35]) [70.113.58.209]:49565 X-Source-Auth: paul+paulgrosso.name X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: cGF1bGdyb3M7Y2xlYXJsaWc7Y29sb3JhZG8ud2Vic2l0ZXdlbGNvbWUuY29t Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/R780M9u7TZpL3jHJ6dClD_yDaSA X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:43:16 -0800 Cc: core , apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Last Call: (XML Media Types) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:35:57 -0000 On 2014-03-03 04:04, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has received a request from the Applications Area Working Group > WG (appsawg) to consider the following document: > - 'XML Media Types' > as Proposed Standard > > . . . Dear IETF, The W3C XML Core Working Group has continued to follow the progress of XML Media Types (aka 3023-bis) over that last year (and more). We have reviewed almost all of the http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-appsawg-xml-mediatypes-0*.txt drafts and would like to support its transition to Proposed Standard. Our Working Group members have made several comments on earlier drafts as well as reviewed the comments and dispositions of others as evidenced by http://www.w3.org/XML/2012/10/3023bis/02-comments.html and http://www.w3.org/XML/2012/10/3023bis/06-comments.html and various emails archived in our groups mailing list at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2013Sep/0010 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2013Sep/0019 and various other threads. We look forward to having an updated replacement to RFC 3023. Paul Grosso, co-chair for the W3C XML Core Working Group From nobody Tue Mar 4 21:23:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200861A0239 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:23:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kFOQg1p4GxDJ for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532EC1A0238 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s255N051019442; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:23:00 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 69b6_7248_37ff82be_a426_11e3_9ab2_001e6722eec2; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:23:00 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED36BFF7F; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:23:00 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:22:52 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , IETF Apps Discuss References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/MHFom4yqr8JSTPU8EYSn49ZDHoE Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 05:23:11 -0000 On 2014/03/05 06:41, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > WEIRDS met today and discussed what we believe are its remaining issues. > > The group discussed the outcome of a design team meeting that tried to > address two issues at once: the issue an imposed URI structure > (draft-nottingham-uri-get-off-my-lawn) and the methodology by which to find > an authoritative registry that can further delegate. Both issues are being > addressed by allowing a key-value table that supports longest-match lookups > resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a query that > will either return an answer or a redirection. The WG will continue this > discussion on its mailing list and select a path forward. Participants > were asked to open tracker items for any remaining issues on the open > documents (query, redirection, bootstrapping) so they can be driven to > resolution. Regarding this point, Mark sent a mail to the W3C TAG (Technical Architecture Group) a while ago, at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2014Feb/0068.html, and I replied at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2014Feb/0079.html, switching to defend the (former?) WEIRDS position. There was only one reply, agreeing with me (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2014Feb/0080.html) but probably better worded. Looking at the above "key-value table that supports longest-match lookups resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a query that will either return an answer or a redirection", this to me smells like over-engineering even just when reading it (not to speak of having to implement it). Of course, if the WEIRDS WG is happy with that, I won't complain any further, but I just wanted to mention this because I earlier supported Mark and Tim on this list (and would still continue to do that if there were no indirection at all in WEIRDS, i.e. if e.g. WEIRDS was requiring top-level directories with fixed names). Regards, Martin. > The discussion of the publication of the table (IANA being the logical > point) ventured into the complications that come with the IETF creating > domain registries and imposing policies potentially outside of its > purview. This issue has not been completely resolved but we believe there > are ways forward through careful crafting of the language and keeping the > IANA section to an absolute minimum. > > Finally, a report was given of interoperability tests performed prior to > the IETF meeting. No specification issues were discovered and a fair > number of server as well as client implementations interoperate. A couple > of issues were identified and we are at or close to consensus on resolution. > > The chairs believe that the work of the group may conclude between now and > Toronto, so this may have been our final meeting. > > -MSK and Olaf, co-chairs, WEIRDS > > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > From nobody Wed Mar 5 02:43:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591401A03FE for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:43:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ohrZBDI2f67 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x22e.google.com (mail-pb0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01291A03EA for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id rq2so908937pbb.5 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=E1DcgZSSljt9VH7UHXSl+nSSgm4ZO00MmYWX5McLNR4=; b=R/vffZfwbuvyoK5DQEwk2eKynn1b3tqHw6I68p1+HhVBeOO7glXW/I8h+DuEFNjyUK Ji9L4zYpD+cpBxQ3TwJuLaXlMK49NagGdmf2yIj702HvlDtewN4nfZtwt9BiT7yYepDE 7HvqitNLmaD3Tg8CItM3GLrLD4X7Ignth5HW/CjzbmIrvjJKEDZdIlTrKdQJYEKqDpPW eR77p3H/95uz9lYwu9tJ15NfUG+XW9R/o5P1s8gJtcCdoP/I+nlPhyUwfkHMnKOTodH1 Oy8fcJcYEW/qZn/FNxJR69N8nKPt7sjsrkep51hTf4Zfe7oih34qnk5T6Wv7gmMk8bJB GRPw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.60.225 with SMTP id k1mr6130918pbr.58.1394016209434; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:43:29 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544eef2f97eae04f3d9b06d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/TJiL-4OF6kuD_wClHhawxqqT_V0 Subject: [apps-discuss] Mini-charters, etc. X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:43:34 -0000 --bcaec544eef2f97eae04f3d9b06d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've uploaded to the WG's wiki the mini-charters we have received for documents admitted to APPSAWG under that program. Let us know if you have any comments on the charters in particular or the program in general. When Dave provides the one for the URI scheme registrations document, we'll upload that one as well and admit the document. http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/trac/wiki -MSK, APPSAWG co-chair --bcaec544eef2f97eae04f3d9b06d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've uploaded to the WG's wiki the mini-= charters we have received for documents admitted to APPSAWG under that prog= ram.=A0 Let us know if you have any comments on the charters in particular = or the program in general.

When Dave provides the one for the URI scheme registrations docum= ent, we'll upload that one as well and admit the document.

http://wiki.tools.ie= tf.org/wg/appsawg/trac/wiki

-MSK, APPSAWG co-chair

--bcaec544eef2f97eae04f3d9b06d-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 03:00:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0F81A0423 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:00:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8m2NpeTiLkr for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9171A03EC for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id kq14so953418pab.9 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 03:00:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jkd80h+toCyrjUt2Ohd3HYUlv73bn4j6fMdsr0hawP0=; b=WcmWS3GgJwEHMcBa1wxjwOiJoPqFgZJcGgbKpGIoLhIP5BpUAKT8yHGTxGxAeazfa2 C90F3EJNIsvBuvuvXUCfwhtAyMw/P1/BTxFm5L4DlA4z10csqBT9AtVn6RFfi1nI4I7X sDl66wP+vhntTKATGsI87VeIgzNJEnxruTILNGFSA4wUZ4JfiGOla6/5RIpTDGP3uHSw OHpckjIAdci4ma+EDheA7QUzQ+VB65fK//yM3RwPH4HRdOLHQl8BcW5cocUF5/23ME3Q uCayoMs7nnx7H4/XMZypzwXrptNxdHyVxery1/sgVaqPZvIgFgxBz0/ZS68OrAaVvLQ7 /M+w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.170.36 with SMTP id aj4mr6271458pbc.54.1394017251275; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 03:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:00:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacb21c12b70804f3d9ef25 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_NrTckLl9oYSnSjeDQ7btklNYB4 Subject: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:00:56 -0000 --047d7bacb21c12b70804f3d9ef25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The discussion during the development of the RRVS draft about SMTP extensions vs. header fields as mechanisms for adding capabilities has led me to write this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/ Do people think this is a useful thing to pursue for publication as either Informational or BCP? I have a thorough review from Dave Crocker and one from John Levine, but I'd love to hear from others about whether it's worth doing and if so, what work needs doing. Thanks, -MSK, as just-another-apps-droid --047d7bacb21c12b70804f3d9ef25 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The discussion during the development of th= e RRVS draft about SMTP extensions vs. header fields as mechanisms for addi= ng capabilities has led me to write this:

https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/

Do people think this is a useful thing to pursue for publication = as either Informational or BCP?=A0 I have a thorough review from Dave Crock= er and one from John Levine, but I'd love to hear from others about whe= ther it's worth doing and if so, what work needs doing.

Thanks,
-MSK, as just-another-apps-droid

--047d7bacb21c12b70804f3d9ef25-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 03:11:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2751A0489 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38Ja0TTgeTqv for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C81A0458 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s25BBPGX015847; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:11:25 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 69b6_5689_e40f450a_a456_11e3_9ab2_001e6722eec2; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:11:25 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5751DBFF7F; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:11:24 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <53170654.9090006@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:11:16 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , IETF Apps Discuss References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/veFxAuBLRs9zToBt3sBAZzGx6G0 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Mini-charters, etc. X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:11:50 -0000 On 2014/03/05 19:43, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > I've uploaded to the WG's wiki the mini-charters we have received for > documents admitted to APPSAWG under that program. Let us know if you h= ave > any comments on the charters in particular or the program in general. I think minicharters are a good idea, but what I see is not what I'd=20 call mini.=E3=80=80Although some WG charters recently have increased in l= ength,=20 some of them are still very short (e.g. http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg=20 /6man/charters=EF=BC=89, and we should make sure our minicharters are not= =20 longer than a (short!) paragraph or two, too. Regards, Martin. > When Dave provides the one for the URI scheme registrations document, w= e'll > upload that one as well and admit the document. > > http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/trac/wiki > > -MSK, APPSAWG co-chair > > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > From nobody Wed Mar 5 05:07:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741F01A02AD for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:07:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o5LDOR5HYl6H for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-41-v6.csi.cam.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:212:8::e:f41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67251A0400 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:07:31 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from [31.76.20.219] (port=56463) by ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.157]:587) with esmtpsa (PLAIN:fanf2) (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) id 1WLBXd-0000Nb-QY (Exim 4.82_3-c0e5623) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:07:28 +0000 References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A24416C9-4D5E-4AC6-9828-9EE6296C3328 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11B651) From: Tony Finch Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 13:07:15 +0000 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/BhjUtLY8wqkxHoxgbRM1gr9ggvc Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:07:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-A24416C9-4D5E-4AC6-9828-9EE6296C3328 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it would be helpful for experts if there was a clear separation of t= he basic tutorial material from the enumeration of the problem points. I ski= pped to section 7 but I am not sure what I missed :-) One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMTP was a BCC-like mechan= ism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way within the 822 format to= specify details of the envelope. This is useful when preparing the message,= when saving drafts and saving copies of sent messages. It would be nice if f= uture specs did not leave this out. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ > On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:00, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote= : >=20 > The discussion during the development of the RRVS draft about SMTP extensi= ons vs. header fields as mechanisms for adding capabilities has led me to wr= ite this: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/ >=20 > Do people think this is a useful thing to pursue for publication as either= Informational or BCP? I have a thorough review from Dave Crocker and one f= rom John Levine, but I'd love to hear from others about whether it's worth d= oing and if so, what work needs doing. >=20 > Thanks, > -MSK, as just-another-apps-droid >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --Apple-Mail-A24416C9-4D5E-4AC6-9828-9EE6296C3328 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think it would be helpful for expert= s if there was a clear separation of the basic tutorial material from the en= umeration of the problem points. I skipped to section 7 but I am not sure wh= at I missed :-)

One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMT= P was a BCC-like mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way w= ithin the 822 format to specify details of the envelope. This is useful when= preparing the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent message= s. It would be nice if future specs did not leave this out.

Tony= .
--
f.anthony.n.finch  <do= t@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/

On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:00, "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:

<= /div>
The disc= ussion during the development of the RRVS draft about SMTP extensions vs. he= ader fields as mechanisms for adding capabilities has led me to write this:<= br>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/
Do people think this is a useful thing to pursue for publication a= s either Informational or BCP?  I have a thorough review from Dave Croc= ker and one from John Levine, but I'd love to hear from others about whether= it's worth doing and if so, what work needs doing.

Thanks,
-MSK, as just-another-apps-droid

____________________= ___________________________
apps-discuss mailing list=
apps-discuss@ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
<= /blockquote>= --Apple-Mail-A24416C9-4D5E-4AC6-9828-9EE6296C3328-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 05:16:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF04F1A0256 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4NLHHisq1o6 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301021A0073 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id kq14so1073683pab.24 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 05:16:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=oe5hEXfAlZmbht4Tesuo1Ptf9MQVYrSZHnUbOQzz0IY=; b=n8/WTJLU8zBUiKd+hQA18BOhQPctXUIDU+HJEmPQs7G4GJgzHEuVndnawrpOxQyuwG +fRND1ChiwIyYpTKcUx2UAVgrOiq5q/ZdX+hv4hkx1w+qeqpBWq1mxumdHJrp876vfkR NZof7LeKZ7QmPZVkG/Ml9OfvxYAmz6GhvVv4frhgJuGc5yPuxlUEwpxEc3oitVWnB8UA SK6Vyve6yBwIi0LAMYt8TgpoOGHSq33LTJCmU5tRxKz8Bduc24EKJRTSLQw9txHldTfp 5LLc7rvhraR+to/zllyfeG+xsOqt08vQ9KuxhrK2ImAoPPw4ARy4SLrkI++/WhiXJElA 5Aow== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.118.71 with SMTP id kk7mr6975533pab.14.1394025387728; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 05:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 13:16:27 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Tony Finch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffbad050b240104f3dbd4de Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/v89rutYC4PhJFJv67JDI04trk_s Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:16:33 -0000 --e89a8ffbad050b240104f3dbd4de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > I think it would be helpful for experts if there was a clear separation of > the basic tutorial material from the enumeration of the problem points. I > skipped to section 7 but I am not sure what I missed :-) > You're not the first person to say that, so I'll look at rearranging the material. Thanks for the suggestion. > > One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMTP was a BCC-like > mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way within the 822 > format to specify details of the envelope. This is useful when preparing > the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent messages. It > would be nice if future specs did not leave this out. > > I wasn't around when ESMTP was introduced, so I'm not clear on what you're talking about here. Can you either include or point me at an example? -MSK --e89a8ffbad050b240104f3dbd4de Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at&g= t; wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think it would be helpful for experts if there was= a clear separation of the basic tutorial material from the enumeration of = the problem points. I skipped to section 7 but I am not sure what I missed = :-)

You're not the first perso= n to say that, so I'll look at rearranging the material.=A0 Thanks for = the suggestion.
=A0

One thing that was lost with the introduction of= ESMTP was a BCC-like mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a= way within the 822 format to specify details of the envelope. This is usef= ul when preparing the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent= messages. It would be nice if future specs did not leave this out.


I wasn't around when E= SMTP was introduced, so I'm not clear on what you're talking about = here.=A0 Can you either include or point me at an example?

-MSK
--e89a8ffbad050b240104f3dbd4de-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 05:16:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83081A0073 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQhCfcIB8BOQ for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05C41A047E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s25DGX45027872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:16:37 -0800 Message-ID: <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:15:27 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch , "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> In-Reply-To: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 05:16:38 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/jFQP693GQLkNz4w8PDtUL1rja4U Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:16:49 -0000 On 3/5/2014 1:07 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > I think it would be helpful for experts if there was a clear separation > of the basic tutorial material from the enumeration of the problem > points. I skipped to section 7 but I am not sure what I missed :-) +1 > One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMTP was a BCC-like > mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way within the 822 > format to specify details of the envelope. This is useful when preparing > the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent messages. It > would be nice if future specs did not leave this out. huh? I don't understand. I used bcc this morning, with thunderbird. and it has nothing to do with [E]SMTP. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Wed Mar 5 06:39:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF241A0226 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:39:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rM39-C_yk-s for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811B31A0223 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A84C4F67DE; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4OG1VLMst_5; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658A54F584E; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CC64F67DE; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8IdtMM-toan3; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C674F584E; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:39:37 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Message-ID: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_86199_1763874800.1394030377737" X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: Adding email capabilities Thread-Index: ncuMlVmj7wHWLPcN2WL6xoB8pYQTfQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/yCoul6K1eLqGC13PurmvJRW-jQc Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:39:47 -0000 ------=_Part_86199_1763874800.1394030377737 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read quickly... I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message with return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Original-To: Other problems not mentioned that I will crudely name: SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unreliable links, as the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and large emails create anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues. SMTP as XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast exchange of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few seconds (priority short email?) Authentication: if I trust you more, I may be nicer with your email and/or provide you more feedback Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery sometimes disappear with no feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on the floor or delivered in spam folder. Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve everything? Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot read? Bounce and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific extensions, so different rules are applied, and user readable DSN are generated (the problem of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))? I'm not saying these problems should be resolved, but they should be mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, or expectations from email users. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "IETF Apps Discuss" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:00:51 AM Subject: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities The discussion during the development of the RRVS draft about SMTP extensions vs. header fields as mechanisms for adding capabilities has led me to write this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/ Do people think this is a useful thing to pursue for publication as either Informational or BCP? I have a thorough review from Dave Crocker and one from John Levine, but I'd love to hear from others about whether it's worth doing and if so, what work needs doing. Thanks, -MSK, as just-another-apps-droid _______________________________________________ apps-discuss mailing list apps-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss ------=_Part_86199_1763874800.1394030377737 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I read quickly...

I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message wit= h return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Origi= nal-To:

Other problems not mentioned that I wi= ll crudely name:
SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large= emails over unreliable links, as the session as to be restarted from the b= eginning, and large emails create anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues.
=
SMTP as XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content= ) or fast exchange of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered with= in a few seconds (priority short email?)
Authentication: if I= trust you more, I may be nicer with your email and/or provide you more fee= dback
Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery somet= imes disappear with no feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on t= he floor or delivered in spam folder.
Encryption: does STARTT= LS and DANE solve everything?
Privacy: email that even the po= stmaster cannot read?
Bounce and abuse processing: through ma= ilbox or specific extensions, so different rules are applied, and user read= able DSN are generated (the problem of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-twe= eting))?

I'm not saying these problems should = be resolved, but they should be mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use = cases, or expectations from email users.

= From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>
To: "IETF Apps Discuss" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesd= ay, March 5, 2014 11:00:51 AM
Subject: [apps-discuss] Adding emai= l capabilities

The discus= sion during the development of the RRVS draft about SMTP extensions vs. hea= der fields as mechanisms for adding capabilities has led me to write this:<= br>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-kucherawy-email-caps/

Do people think this is a u= seful thing to pursue for publication as either Informational or BCP? = I have a thorough review from Dave Crocker and one from John Levine, but I= 'd love to hear from others about whether it's worth doing and if so, what = work needs doing.

Thanks,
-MSK, as just-another-apps-droid=


______________________________________________= _
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

------=_Part_86199_1763874800.1394030377737-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 06:49:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED4E1A06A4 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:49:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dg62_QBMqfcX for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEA71A06C6 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id kp14so1187061pab.33 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:49:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=lNtb4z5H+QR4fK/Wcj8cbIxS2wNpFA1J5lLJNrvwnts=; b=wlowspfOfp5lQ6/3zt6qYJYVSL905XNSHKURvGZrgodOTFfu7TJAGOvB8b+RgWzwNo OhZKsgQMmTtyPwaeDMRVO7rGAgbkbUEwmWwAx8v6nggufa7N4TG3On4VDwemya8NwcZx VfWvW1peeTnZvVUtn2f7Bv5A/nOSAAmWOcx7JKEmCiCWGlL8Tn26KuMqF6/3oIfO+U1T Ju6LLtqfkpV2jsnuY2QQenpmhYJWJDowj47rScewSmx2bNzNbE+b9ZmMqNheOa5Pv0aI 07ZelmNQQ4Do6jYwHZQlyNQ7OKB9lw0slTvZ+PbEBuVEW/SLiWzAoO74LNuiYS4H+nNQ 6AmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.194.65 with SMTP id hu1mr7431785pbc.158.1394030953032; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 06:49:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:49:12 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Franck Martin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b15a959c2f1e904f3dd1f50 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ZtjuLYdpnEgn24pcBdKLvVQtW_k Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:49:18 -0000 --047d7b15a959c2f1e904f3dd1f50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Franck Martin wrote: > I read quickly... > > I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message with > return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with > Original-To: > There is no registered header field by that name. Other problems not mentioned that I will crudely name: > SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unreliable links, > as the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and large emails > create anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues. > SMTP as XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast > exchange of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few > seconds (priority short email?) > Authentication: if I trust you more, I may be nicer with your email and/or > provide you more feedback > Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery sometimes disappear with > no feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on the floor or > delivered in spam folder. > Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve everything? > Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot read? > Bounce and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific extensions, so > different rules are applied, and user readable DSN are generated (the > problem of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))? > > I'm not saying these problems should be resolved, but they should be > mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, or expectations from > email users. > > I'm confused. This document's purpose is to educate the reader on cases where using a header field instead of an SMTP extension (or vice versa) to establish some capability is actually the wrong approach, and why, and how we got into these bad habits. How do the above things relate to that? -MSK --047d7b15a959c2f1e904f3dd1f50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Franck Martin <franc= k@peachymango.org> wrote:
I read quickly...

I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message = with return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Or= iginal-To:

There is n= o registered header field by that name.

Other problems not = mentioned that I will crudely name:
SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unrelia= ble links, as the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and large = emails create anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues.
SMTP as X= MPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast exchange o= f emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few seconds (pr= iority short email?)
Authentication: if I trust you more, I may be nicer with your em= ail and/or provide you more feedback
Anti-spam is magic: mess= age accepted for delivery sometimes disappear with no feedback to the sende= r, they are either dropped on the floor or delivered in spam folder.
Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve everything?
Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot read?
Bounc= e and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific extensions, so differen= t rules are applied, and user readable DSN are generated (the problem of ST= MP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))?

I'm not saying these problems should be resol= ved, but they should be mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, o= r expectations from email users.


I'm confused.=A0 This document's purpose is to educate the read= er on cases where using a header field instead of an SMTP extension (or vic= e versa) to establish some capability is actually the wrong approach, and w= hy, and how we got into these bad habits.=A0 How do the above things relate= to that?

-MSK
--047d7b15a959c2f1e904f3dd1f50-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 07:04:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DE31A04F6 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:04:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hyWLvdMwGAY for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1blp0184.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3529A1A00DF for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.141.91.21) by BY2PR02MB106.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.242.43.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.888.9; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:04:20 +0000 Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) by BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) with mapi id 15.00.0888.003; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:04:18 +0000 From: Larry Masinter To: IETF Apps Discuss Thread-Topic: mini-charter for multipart-form-data Thread-Index: Ac84gXufK6GD3MniSWS8t+uAjWJ48g== Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:04:18 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:160:e59f:d1cc:1a4f:62a6] x-forefront-prvs: 01415BB535 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019001)(6009001)(428001)(199002)(189002)(81342001)(85852003)(83072002)(2656002)(87936001)(74366001)(74706001)(90146001)(81816001)(81686001)(81542001)(87266001)(80976001)(51856001)(76176001)(47976001)(83322001)(49866001)(54356001)(95416001)(95666003)(4396001)(92566001)(74502001)(47446002)(86362001)(93516002)(53806001)(31966008)(74662001)(93136001)(94316002)(76796001)(80022001)(33646001)(74876001)(50986001)(77982001)(74316001)(59766001)(47736001)(79102001)(85306002)(69226001)(56816005)(76576001)(97186001)(63696002)(54316002)(56776001)(46102001)(94946001)(76786001)(76482001)(65816001)(3826001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR02MB106; H:BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:2001:67c:370:160:e59f:d1cc:1a4f:62a6; FPR:3FD4F814.27DAC701.33C33488.9AEC8001.201DA; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: adobe.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/3oUMghVfo67LUugZFMcRc3EkFKk Cc: Philippe Le Hegaret Subject: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:04:28 -0000 UHJvYmxlbTogTWFueS9tb3N0IGN1cnJlbnQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIG9mICJtdWx0aXBhcnQv Zm9ybS1kYXRhIiBkbyBub3QgbWF0Y2ggUkZDIDIzODgNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgVGhl eSBkb24ndCBuZWNlc3NhcmlseSBtYXRjaCBlaXRoZXIgb3RoZXIsIGVpdGhlci4NCkluIHNjb3Bl OiAgRml4IHRoZSBzcGVjIHRvIGJlIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgd2l0aCBkZXBsb3llZCBpbXBsZW1lbnRh dGlvbnMsIHJlY29tbWVuZCANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgbW9yZSBjb25zaXN0ZW50IGJl aGF2aW9yLCBnaXZlIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGFkdmljZSBmb3IgY29tcGF0aWJpbGl0eQ0KT3V0 IG9mIHNjb3BlOiBBbHRlcm5hdGl2ZSByZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbnMgdG8gTUlNRSBtdWx0aXBhcnQN CldoeSBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBmb3IgQVBQU0FXRzogIE5vIGN1cnJlbnQgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBp cyBjbG9zZSB0byB0aGlzIHRvcGljLiBTbWFsbCBkb2N1bWVudA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IG5vdCB3b3J0aCBhIG5ldyBXRy4NCg0KDQpXaGF0IEkgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSBpcyBhIGxpc3Qgb2Yg dGhlIG5hbWVzIG9mIGZpdmUgcGVvcGxlIHdobyBoYXZlIGNvbW1pdHRlZCB0byBwcm92aWRlIHRp bWVseSByZXZpZXdzIChvciBldmVuIHVudGltZWx5IHJldmlld3MpLiANCkJ1dCB0aGVyZSBoYXZl IGluIHRoZSBwYXN0IGJlZW4gcGVvcGxlIHdobyBoYXZlIHJhaXNlZCB0aGVpciBoYW5kcy4gIA0K DQpXb3JraW5nIHdpdGggUGhpbGlwcGUgeWVzdGVyZGF5LCAgd2UgbWFkZSBzb21lIGdvb2QgcHJv Z3Jlc3Mgb24gdGhlIHRlc3QgZnJhbWV3b3JrIHRvd2FyZCBpbnRlZ3JhdGluZyBpdCB3aXRoIHRo ZSBXM0Mgd2ViIHBsYXRmb3JtIHRlc3QuDQpJIGV4cGVjdCB0byBtYWtlIHNvbWUgc3Vic3RhbnRp YWwgcmV2aXNpb25zIGJhc2VkIG9uIHJlY2VudCAgcmVzdWx0cy4NCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 5 07:07:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3301A02B2 for ; 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s=53173db7.xn--i8sz2z.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=8qSioovrMo6lKIUwrF2jiHkonf4RAmLBZmU3Rjpe8nM=; b=FD2bFtfwBWzp5FD/dk/s9BIB7ZuFb/jkyrxcJS7jgSsAvAtkqUn6uxoXQQC5qWJSyB1tddnSu+qmHZ+e27RJbP6eK3qhN3JTT1VjM4vLX4qrRr01YqB8vwIzJK2eHypUXp0kcxYg+3IRzswsq9Ejoqg321dGOH5WSHnUuEk6HDTqalvmChJxYe9sYMe+WW0qSDNZOQzAWKXnU14Zou5qa0y/fy2Sf6QedYqruatZOeFoQUwk8r02hf2GkQyX5JvD DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53173db7.xn--i8sz2z.k1403; bh=8qSioovrMo6lKIUwrF2jiHkonf4RAmLBZmU3Rjpe8nM=; b=QcJrNn9RAfKn15c7YtrlGVZLN6Y/1jzAwlPmrT4FaK/5/n4JlHyzr1wOVOfU4qmrSGTVsT93Aqb5bvm0E0OK2Z8LIfEfA+koGoRGEt7BV8XHNO/rRK6oosWhanGE+mkGrgiH7cFaeP0Ll65NGZJYEVHK6dQDdqzxNW8J6dsIseA+TxYdVvpWUw7AEKj91xce0bQJOzuhnn8hcYN2QntlJZUTz/IDA0ZB0VxDwhzM5DQnaT0fDb0NgFKGCoO/nGLW Date: 5 Mar 2014 15:07:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/susG20C6QsI8rCCCaGYY-hoEByU Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:07:42 -0000 >Looking at the above "key-value table that supports longest-match >lookups resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a >query that will either return an answer or a redirection", this to me >smells like over-engineering even just when reading it (not to speak of >having to implement it). > >Of course, if the WEIRDS WG is happy with that, ... Not particularly, but our preferred solution, a fixed URL suffix syntax that we append to a per-thing (domain, IP range, etc.) prefix is apparently forbidden to us. The redirects have been there all along to provide a less broken version of what thin WHOIS does now. R's, John From nobody Wed Mar 5 07:59:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F95D1A029D; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:59:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id buW3mO_nOP6U; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7794A1A0760; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-f5-531749c02235 Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 80.F1.10875.0C947135; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:58:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [131.160.126.237] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:58:56 +0100 Message-ID: <531749BF.6000804@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:58:55 +0000 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Johnston , Peter Saint-Andre References: <51A57AA3.6000403@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5BT/Fggz9TBSxmtrayWKx+uYLN 4s7tNmaLljteFjP+TGS2eNp4ltHi2J5+ZouGNXIOHB6tz/ayevRddvHYOesuu8eSJT+ZPObu ecHs0XKul93jy+XPbAHsUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZW37tYS7YpVnx6rhpA+MD2S5GTg4JAROJ uwveM0LYYhIX7q1n62Lk4hASOMQoseHZKiYIZw2jxPQlz5lBqngFtCUePb/LAmKzCKhINHVf ZgOx2QQsJLbcug8WFxWIkvh5ZQE7RL2gxMmZT4DiHBwiAuESLcvKQGYyC0xjkjg+dxNYvbCA pcTTZ8dYQWwhgTyJ0zfPg13EKRAosWLZOlaQXgkBcYmexiCQMLOAnsSUqy2MELa8xPa3c5gh WrUllj9rYZnAKDQLyeZZSFpmIWlZwMi8ipE9NzEzJ73ccBMjMCIObvmtu4Px1DmRQ4zSHCxK 4rwf3joHCQmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamAsuymwYo7yBGVvjQtfypdVWTx2FJzt 1/nky1TFS+4ia2rP/y6zbTvo8aPwTOhEqStnOxyvb8heub000rDgd/HH+YoHTGUfq+aq9+2r 6Ek/Mzd24idp10ft18ubpsmb5rRNXt+89auvwydXDi+mxfOFoms/iH18ztqcdKdRv5dJuv7i 0x73k5FKLMUZiYZazEXFiQDz00ypVgIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/v0pe1BmmLiimIuG4CNVIknhB--U Cc: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-cuss-sip-uui.all@tools.ietf.org, The IESG , "Vijay K. Gurbani" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AppsDir review of draft-ietf-cuss-sip-uui-10 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:59:13 -0000 Hi Peter, Alan has just revised the draft per his email below. http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?difftype=--hwdiff&url2=draft-ietf-cuss-sip-uui-13.txt Cheers, Gonzalo On 18/02/2014 7:40 PM, Alan Johnston wrote: > Peter, > > Thanks for the review. Somehow we missed seeing it, so apologies for > the long delay. > > We have made all the changes you suggested, but won't be able to submit > the I-D until March. Let us know if you have any concerns or comments. > > See below for a few comments. > > - Alan - > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > Greetings! > > I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate [1] reviewer > for draft-ietf-cuss-sip-uui. Please resolve these comments along with > any other Last Call comments you might receive. Please wait for > direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version > of the Internet-Draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-cuss-sip-uui-10 > Title: A Mechanism for Transporting User to User Call Control > Information in SIP > Reviewer: Peter Saint-Andre > Review Date: 2013-05-28 > IETF Last Call ends: 2013-05-29 > > Summary: The document is ready for advancement to Proposed Standard but > could do with a bit more polishing. > > Major Issues: > > None. > > Minor Issues: > > Section 3 states: > > For redirection and referral use cases and REQ-3, the header field > shall be included (escaped) into the Contact or Refer-To URI. > > No guidelines are provided for deciding between use of the Contact > header field or the Refer-To header field. Might that introduce the > possibility of interoperability problems? > > > No, they are separate use cases. Rewrote this sentence to make this > clearer. Which header is used is dependent on the use case, which is > chosen by the UA initiating. As a result, there is no interop issues. > > > Also, a normative reference to > RFC 3515 seems needed here. > > > Added. > > > > In Section 4.1, has the ABNF been checked? > > > Yes. > > > > Section 4.2 states: > > Each octet of binary > data to be represented in the hex encoding MUST be mapped to two > hexadecimal digits (represented by ASCII characters 0-9, A-F and > a-f), each representing four bits within the octet. > > Is the output case-insensitive? > > > Yes. > > > > Also, in Section 4.2: > > Hex encoding is normally done as a token, > although quoted-string is permitted, in which case the quotes MUST be > ignored. > > The phrase "done as" is a bit loose; I assume you mean something like > "The hex-encoded value is normally represented using the 'token' > construction from RFC 3261, although the 'quoted-string' construction is > permitted..." > > > Done. > > > > In Section 5, what is the rationale for using a policy of "RFC Required" > rather than, say, "Specification Required"? Were the various RFC 5226 > options considered by the CUSS WG? > > Please note that Section 5 states: > > UUI packages defined using this SIP UUI mechanism MUST follow the > "RFC Required" guideline as defined in [RFC5226] and publish a > standards track RFC which describes the usage. > > However, Section 6.3 states: > > This specification establishes the uui-packages sub-registry under > http://www.iana.org/assignments/sip-parameters. New uui-packages > MUST follow the "Specification Required" guideline as defined in > [RFC5226]. > > Are those two statements in conflict? > > > We have changed it to "standards action" based on WG consensus and AD > advice. > > > > In Section 5, condition #5 states: > > 5. The UUI data is not being utilized for user-to-user Remote > Procedure Call (RPC) calls. > > Is it possible to use the UUI header field for RPC calls, or in general > as a kind of back channel? If so, it would be good to discuss that in > the Security Considerations > > > No, we don't allow RFC call usages. > > > > Nits: > > It would be helpful to reference 4244bis on first mention of > History-Info. Also, isn't it properly "the History-Info header field"? > > > Done. Updated to RFC 7044. > > > > What is "hi-targeted-to-uri"? If that is a specification, a citation > would be helpful. > > > Added reference to RFC 7044. > > > > The following text would be better placed in the Terminology section > (or, at the least, before the first example that uses this convention, > not after the second example): > > Note that the tag convention from SIP Torture Test > Messages [RFC4475] is used to show that there are no line breaks in > the actual message syntax. > > > Done. > > > > Peter > > [1] > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate > > > From nobody Wed Mar 5 08:29:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDB61A076B; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:29:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_cKxqfBrCf2; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.uio.no (mail-out4.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A781A0773; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29]) by mail-out4.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WLEh2-0002gO-Lh; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:29:16 +0100 Received: from dhcp-9cc2.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.156.194]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WLEh2-00056N-4Q; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:29:16 +0100 From: Michael Welzl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:29:14 +0000 Message-Id: To: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 5 msgs/h 3 sum rcpts/h 7 sum msgs/h 5 total rcpts 13270 max rcpts/h 44 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 308A5DA8197D369466EBBC0AF8854911DF3602AC X-UiO-SPAM-Test: UIO-GREYLIST remote_host: 31.133.156.194 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 3 total 32 max/h 11 blacklist 0 greylist 1 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/QcrE6f5S54DXlXa-CEx-e6OUmXM Cc: "" Subject: [apps-discuss] TAPS BOF: clarifications and pointer to mailing list X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:29:25 -0000 Dear all, I thought it would be helpful to give a little clarification about the = TAPS BOF, for those of you who were there. I was under the impression that what we're really planning to do didn't = quite get across: an API? where? a middleware? So... Defining and prescribing *one* API in *one* place of the stack is *not* = the major goal of TAPS. The goal is to identify the services that are = provided by IETF-defined transport protocols, look at services that = applications really want from the network, and see how we can map the = two onto each other. This is more abstract than an API in that it is not = associated with one particular layer - it is helpful as implementation = guidance for people doing APIs or middlewares. We have written a draft = charter that tries to reflect that quite some time ago already: = https://sites.google.com/site/transportprotocolservices/home/charter-propo= sal-before-bof If you look at the deliverables, you'll see the actual scope that we are = thinking of. We would describe an example API, and we would specify how = the services *can* be provided, but these two things are both meant as = examples. The intention of the agenda was: - to give an overview of why this is needed (Jon's presentation) - to give an example of how a richer set of services than just TCP and = UDP can benefit an already widely deployed middleware, as an easy = deployment path (don't change applications, just the middleware) = (Martin's presentation) - to give an *example* of how this could be implemented (Gorry's = presentation) - to explain how this relates to MIF (Margaret's presentation) I am sorry if this wasn't clear enough; now I see that I should have = perhaps given this background initially, but one always knows better in = retrospect... Please note that there is a website associated with this: https://sites.google.com/site/transportprotocolservices/ with e.g. drafts, such as draft-hurtig-tsvwg-transport-apis-00 (this one = should clarify some things, hopefully), and also an FAQ page, with = answers to questions such as "Shouldn't this be an IRTF activity?". If = you have such questions, the best thing to do would be to check this = page, and if you disagree with what you see there, please join our list = and tell us. =3D> Well, please join us anyway if you're interested. The list = subscription page is: https://sympa.uio.no/ifi.uio.no/info/transport-services I thank everyone who attended for a lively and interesting discussion, = and I hope we can find a commonly agreed upon way to take this work = ahead. Cheers, Michael Welzl From nobody Wed Mar 5 08:43:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFCE1A00A3 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:43:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruckeOPge9Jx for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333221A04F6 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P52TN9SFNK00176T@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1394037478; bh=EsTwJj5FLkAClnIR4hrEZ9DD9KgQtgxGBOFJc1KiKyk=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=YVlGmRbKK6p0F2mWOclQYXiSwL4n4nGO0aujVOZ98W9KkXjn5PVgGprfrOMFExsWG 1GmcNkcY17c1OUBufyFB1t4mNA6TGS8k+1BjpkOxBMWkh4u+S1Dqf65InCPDj6RRc1 ZhZR6Kc62GwqMLutpXvsTd0OmJz1+x/9ZtqnRR2k= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; Format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P52QUUYI1S00004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:37:53 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 08:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 05 Mar 2014 13:15:27 +0000" <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> To: Dave Crocker Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/7n3R9Lr9eTynP0SZnuMqMoswalY Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:43:10 -0000 > On 3/5/2014 1:07 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > > I think it would be helpful for experts if there was a clear separation > > of the basic tutorial material from the enumeration of the problem > > points. I skipped to section 7 but I am not sure what I missed :-) > +1 > > One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMTP was a BCC-like > > mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way within the 822 > > format to specify details of the envelope. This is useful when preparing > > the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent messages. It > > would be nice if future specs did not leave this out. > huh? I don't understand. > I used bcc this morning, with thunderbird. That's beside the point. Tony is talking about having a way to capture what the submitting client put in the envelope as part of the message header. For things like message copies put in a "Sent" folder. > and it has nothing to do with [E]SMTP. Perhaps not, but it has everything to do with SUBMIT. Ned From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:00:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A6F1A01B3 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eHmbRAIuVbBv for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F47E1A0129 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FFD4F5029; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:41 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mD9aznv12DJS; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276854F6508; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9104F5E2E; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:41 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-2.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-2.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id geTqeQkP8i2N; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-2.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50D64F5029; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:00:40 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Message-ID: <12951665.95893.1394042440061.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_95892_578813225.1394042440060" X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: Adding email capabilities Thread-Index: i0UQc4HINVI4dDh7b9DMJAzSYQkjkA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/6GNFdEFVaoT14nUYsl7I1uFFq4Q Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:00:47 -0000 ------=_Part_95892_578813225.1394042440060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" > To: "Franck Martin" > Cc: "IETF Apps Discuss" > Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:49:12 PM > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Franck Martin < franck@peachymango.org > > wrote: > > I read quickly... > > > I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message with > > return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with > > Original-To: > > There is no registered header field by that name. yes but it is often used, need for standardization? > > Other problems not mentioned that I will crudely name: > > > SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unreliable links, > > as > > the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and large emails create > > anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues. > > > SMTP as XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast > > exchange of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few > > seconds (priority short email?) > > > Authentication: if I trust you more, I may be nicer with your email and/or > > provide you more feedback > > > Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery sometimes disappear with > > no > > feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on the floor or delivered > > in > > spam folder. > > > Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve everything? > > > Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot read? > > > Bounce and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific extensions, so > > different rules are applied, and user readable DSN are generated (the > > problem of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))? > > > I'm not saying these problems should be resolved, but they should be > > mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, or expectations from > > email > > users. > > I'm confused. This document's purpose is to educate the reader on cases where > using a header field instead of an SMTP extension (or vice versa) to > establish some capability is actually the wrong approach, and why, and how > we got into these bad habits. How do the above things relate to that? Me too ;) did I say I read quickly... I thought the purpose was to inventory the landscape of possible capabilities. ------=_Part_95892_578813225.1394042440060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@= gmail.com>
To: "Franck Martin" <franck@peachymango.org><= br>Cc: "IETF Apps Discuss" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Sent:= Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:49:12 PM
Subject: Re: [apps-discu= ss] Adding email capabilities

On Wed, Ma= r 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Franck Martin <franck@peachymango.org> wrote:
I read quickly...

I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message wit= h return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Origi= nal-To:

There is no r= egistered header field by that name.
yes but it is often used, need for standardization?

Other problems not mentioned that I will crudely name:
SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unrel= iable links, as the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and larg= e emails create anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues.
SMTP as= XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast exchange= of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few seconds (= priority short email?)
Authentication: if I trust you more, I= may be nicer with your email and/or provide you more feedback
Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery sometimes disappear wit= h no feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on the floor or delive= red in spam folder.
Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve = everything?
Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot re= ad?
Bounce and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific = extensions, so different rules are applied, and user readable DSN are gener= ated (the problem of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))?
=

I'm not saying these problems should be resolved, but t= hey should be mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, or expectat= ions from email users.


I'm confus= ed.  This document's purpose is to educate the reader on cases where u= sing a header field instead of an SMTP extension (or vice versa) to establi= sh some capability is actually the wrong approach, and why, and how we got = into these bad habits.  How do the above things relate to that?

Me too ;) did I say I read = quickly...

I thought the purpose was to invent= ory the landscape of possible capabilities.

<= /body> ------=_Part_95892_578813225.1394042440060-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:09:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B84F1A016E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b1tMiJp5D84B for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-40.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-40-v6.csi.cam.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:212:8::e:f40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F113B1A022D for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:09:31 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:38042) by ppsw-40.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1WLGFz-0005FN-kj (Exim 4.82_3-c0e5623) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:09:27 +0000 Received: from fanf2 by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local id 1WLGFz-00053B-Cg (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:09:27 +0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:09:27 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/iEJ0v01e3nFhpqxG0jMZA2v7dxY Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:09:40 -0000 Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > > > > One thing that was lost with the introduction of ESMTP was a BCC-like > > mechanism for the various envelope extensions, i.e. a way within the 822 > > format to specify details of the envelope. This is useful when preparing > > the message, when saving drafts and saving copies of sent messages. It > > would be nice if future specs did not leave this out. > I wasn't around when ESMTP was introduced, so I'm not clear on what you're > talking about here. Can you either include or point me at an example? So, this way of looking at BCC is you put it in the header when preparing the message, but on submission it is stripped from the header and used to construct part of the envelope. Look at RFC 3461 for example. It specifies some envelope parameters, particularly NOTIFY and RET, which the user will want to specify when composing the message, and record in drafts and saved copies. But there is no standard way to do so as part of the message format, e.g. as stored on an IMAP server. See also RFC 2852, RFC 3885, RFC 4865. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Portland, Plymouth, North Biscay: Southerly or southwesterly 4, increasing 5 or 6. Moderate or rough. Occasional rain later. Good, occasionally poor later. From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:14:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D9B1A0117 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:14:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRr_PoUcnlxi for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x233.google.com (mail-pd0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83A71A00BB for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w10so1368351pde.38 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:14:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=IMBBmWjGPj3aP+xBlAk1H76+T4ZVYXKyEy69PAxYA88=; b=ktjswYuANdg5UbFPktPOLw2ZRlZpwW357s2b+mQQjWRUDMw9F1/aXM66mkHu0tvqjY P7q0IgiupGgktn5VWUQ0IceWAVpWjQE1qogjdeth52u+G/LCdLMxodpY3CiN6lWhkuAe bju7QGr0fC+rElh/MhhyNnQyNVdPKBjmcp3KFY6csT8WNgt4L4hXb/9/fuharuyspp/D Koh+tuUKNSXRBi2ecoi24ppJL/V5jp+iEAX1jBarbAghpmsQYfAN9xYgZ8HHIGQ40Uzf nbDMn5oVO0gJVpmHQwJAoFXCtPMAPgGmjp70WAmIqI2a22+0wXpOcL/SJ3KfezFtwDj3 Y0gw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.194.65 with SMTP id hu1mr8745613pbc.158.1394043257321; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:14:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:14:17 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Tony Finch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b15a959277f1f04f3dffd51 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/a8lsZ-3k1tqMiAGaG35-FTTmkms Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:14:22 -0000 --047d7b15a959277f1f04f3dffd51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > So, this way of looking at BCC is you put it in the header when preparing > the message, but on submission it is stripped from the header and used to > construct part of the envelope. > Ah, I see. I was intending only to talk about "I have a capability to add to mail. Should I do this in an extension or in a header field?" I don't think that's the same thing as what you're talking about here. I take it you mean this concept would be good to write down as well, and this would be a good place to put it? -MSK --047d7b15a959277f1f04f3dffd51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at&g= t; wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So, this way of looking at BCC is you put it in the header when preparing the message, but on submission it is stripped from the header and used to construct part of the envelope.

Ah, I s= ee.

I was intending only to talk about "I have a capability to = add to mail.=A0 Should I do this in an extension or in a header field?"= ;=A0 I don't think that's the same thing as what you're talking= about here.=A0 I take it you mean this concept would be good to write down= as well, and this would be a good place to put it?

-MSK
--047d7b15a959277f1f04f3dffd51-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:23:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F471A025D for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:22:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uES9T6675dop for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928631A0258 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id ld10so1436789pab.40 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:22:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1W1HPXwrOAz4yDWkMLDPyauft4wufMQfKKCCxli46w0=; b=uuUxlvoM86FWnc3W9Gh0nFLxdM8RVzdWchYY1uCBkjsRsoH2EsT/9V8v7AccZhr71T w69pA8A9sFtV4XZRDKH/RdlLvgz+ak+Ad2yaf64kXoTJiBHLKvZThsRZlUqDu85yqgxv Jxbh6whxhXXMPX8jn7jLii6WJarVJUXDVi596URhJcSB4r8jX+T5OswbnOFClh0iwa5N NqfF6Rd3W/EHgex7xPMdUvuwYd5daUqv5/9GNIlHgqnT9Y1/5xhzOL7lOlI1lpcMRnM0 rsOlxGIVfv68eaT/PJP+goQmjhJ9aJQxXatIQMCqfvEiaNBHMrd+3J3l/xw3Jde6mVD0 ynyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.163.164 with SMTP id yj4mr8617200pab.91.1394043774080; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12951665.95893.1394042440061.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <12951665.95893.1394042440061.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:22:53 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Franck Martin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86ec5ef49b4004f3e01b3e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/wk-KyctY7cHUrhdqOdbOqrDIDpE Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:22:59 -0000 --047d7b86ec5ef49b4004f3e01b3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Franck Martin wrote: > ------------------------------ > > > I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message with >> return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with >> Original-To: >> > > There is no registered header field by that name. > > yes but it is often used, need for standardization? > Sure, if you're looking for a project. :-) > I thought the purpose was to inventory the landscape of possible > capabilities. > > No, more meta than that: If you're going to add a capability, which extension model is appropriate? -MSK --047d7b86ec5ef49b4004f3e01b3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Franck Martin <franc= k@peachymango.org> wrote:

I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message = with return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Or= iginal-To:

There is n= o registered header field by that name.
yes but it is often used, need fo= r standardization?

Su= re, if you're looking for a project.=A0 :-)
=A0
<= div>
I thought the purpose was to inventory the landscape of poss= ible capabilities.


No, more meta than that: If you're= going to add a capability, which extension model is appropriate?

-MSK
--047d7b86ec5ef49b4004f3e01b3e-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:34:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D940D1A024F for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:34:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJZ02iBosgJw for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-50.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-50-v6.csi.cam.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:212:8::e:f50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A3B1A024A for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:34:02 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:43243) by ppsw-50.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.158]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1WLGdh-0007eA-sH (Exim 4.82_3-c0e5623) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:33:57 +0000 Received: from fanf2 by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local id 1WLGdh-0007Ht-PL (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:33:57 +0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:33:57 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/3JCCza70Uk1YY6JGilRQ8oX-V-Y Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:34:05 -0000 Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > I was intending only to talk about "I have a capability to add to mail. > Should I do this in an extension or in a header field?" I don't think > that's the same thing as what you're talking about here. I take it you > mean this concept would be good to write down as well, and this would be a > good place to put it? Possibly. I think BCC points to an area where the tension between header vs envelope is fairly strong. In the past the IETF has kept transport-related extensions strictly in the envelope without considering what happens before message submission. I think this makes them more awkward than necessary. Following the BCC model seems to be a good way to resolve the tension. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Northwest Forties, Cromarty, Forth: Southerly 5 to 7, becoming variable 4 later. Moderate or rough. Occasional rain. Good, occasionally moderate. From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:38:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C2A1A01A8 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptoSTjWe0wkA for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x22c.google.com (mail-pb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBF71A0183 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rp16so1426009pbb.31 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:37:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dRfFFmkBKC+TRVqDH6sXCp3pi7b277OzAixjjRi15YQ=; b=KxjQLU3ybcATkoqzDcpAdvXzTsDYFfNP1x6AKEgAepH+tGloagWAQFNRvpxbU2EeKv vIQVgMpuofkIDdQEISDMXqmQzP6drRHiB8pwiOkYbBAr98QD1RyURshzLZ3+ICWs+FuY Rr+wPAplkxMdLZH5EkJTQd0u7GI5YSxX4hu6v20g/9/LBmfQpfnxlbZ0kyXoh02lxpSp 7NyF1Nvx07pzG8hN9va/1ZagQYuCY+UYXKzWBS7R1fFcwOEquljRn9q7TbZY7kmK5Rg4 AsRaZUOEV/mwj7LE8V0ek9LbYmDBY05wibcPkBAn/rQJF0A10KM1mqpq/jI/bgWKI3oM B2CA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.212.10 with SMTP id ng10mr8780872pbc.95.1394044677838; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:37:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:37:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Tony Finch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb20888d2dddd04f3e051ae Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/MF2QGUggX4fG9lTI1DscJ3lqb6w Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:38:04 -0000 --e89a8fb20888d2dddd04f3e051ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > Possibly. I think BCC points to an area where the tension between header > vs envelope is fairly strong. In the past the IETF has kept > transport-related extensions strictly in the envelope without considering > what happens before message submission. I think this makes them more > awkward than necessary. Following the BCC model seems to be a good way to > resolve the tension. > > Got it. I'll take a look at this and the other cases you suggested and figure out what's appropriate to include. Bcc is a pretty obvious case, but I'm not certain about the others yet. Thanks! -MSK --e89a8fb20888d2dddd04f3e051ae Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at&g= t; wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Possibly. I think BCC points to an area where the tension between header vs envelope is fairly strong. In the past the IETF has kept
transport-related extensions strictly in the envelope without considering what happens before message submission. I think this makes them more
awkward than necessary. Following the BCC model seems to be a good way to resolve the tension.


Got it.=A0 I'= ;ll take a look at this and the other cases you suggested and figure out wh= at's appropriate to include.=A0 Bcc is a pretty obvious case, but I'= ;m not certain about the others yet.

Thanks!
-MSK

--e89a8fb20888d2dddd04f3e051ae-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:45:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75551A0221 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:45:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iz5mYNoL3IOQ for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6737E1A011E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s25Ij6e8005070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:45:10 -0800 Message-ID: <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:44:00 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch , "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:45:11 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/tKPoqL15oPaWkJse2APg_KwVHFU Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:45:21 -0000 On 3/5/2014 6:09 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > So, this way of looking at BCC is you put it in the header when preparing > the message, but on submission it is stripped from the header and used to > construct part of the envelope. While, yes, some/many/most/all MUAs use some structured input fields that look like 822 fields -- and there certainly have been batch-ish packages that do/did it literally by reading a formatted file -- they aren't really reading an 822 object. > Look at RFC 3461 for example. It specifies some envelope parameters, > particularly NOTIFY and RET, which the user will want to specify when > composing the message, and record in drafts and saved copies. But there is > no standard way to do so as part of the message format, e.g. as stored on > an IMAP server. > > See also RFC 2852, RFC 3885, RFC 4865. What I'm taking from your notes is the thought that there perhaps should be some sort of coherent specification of the mapping of 821 envelope parameters onto 822 header fields -- obviously just citing existing specs where appropriate. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:05:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D16B1A01D1 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkHFcj23zmj6 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832D21A01FC for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P52YMQF8Y80018SV@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:00:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1394046018; bh=okaq7fT8IaCfen+jQa2Oy1FO8m9u20PPogu36LRNSzk=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=KnrU4jibCqqPnqYkShUY2aTyQYuvTZdlZ1/RMy+lXhwqRpM1lfHb9KAiizEXXcavZ nQRcRUnZ6IDKmCnoljYzQsTgHIv7Wt28QASKUbynImPyTndzo6idNb95wvAZ4tzB8i RVuCe5vBQetyy+gWvYGZy3VxhXTj9mm1EzFc0K34= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P52QUUYI1S00004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01P52YMMZ7R600004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 08:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 05 Mar 2014 08:39:37 -0600 (CST)" <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <723578512.86200.1394030377740.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> To: Franck Martin Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/h79dwZZPPm5gV7-yfIf7phqf5i8 Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:05:46 -0000 > I read quickly... > I think you mention the recording of the envelope from in the message with return-path, but did not mention the record of the envelope to with Original-To: > Other problems not mentioned that I will crudely name: I don't think any of this is relevant to the matter at hand, so FWIW: > SMTP as FTP: it may impossible to send large emails over unreliable links, as > the session as to be restarted from the beginning, and large emails create > anti-spam anti-virus scanning issues. We wrote RFC 1845 to solve this problem, and to a close first approximation nobody cared enugh to deploy it. I'll note that this issue is even worse with FTP itself, because most clients don't retry automatically, which at least email does. And the checkpont/restart facilities in FTP haven't been implemented all that often either. Bottom line: This appears to be a problem nobody cares enough to want to address. > SMTP as XMPP: long threads (netiquette to remove the old content) or fast > exchange of emails: people expect the emails to be delivered within a few > seconds (priority short email?) I don't think this is a standards issue per se, but even so a while back IBM did a whacking lot of research into how to display such matters in a client. Once again, nobody cared to implement any of it. > Authentication: if I trust you more, I may be nicer with your email and/or > provide you more feedback Address-book based whitelisting is widely available, widely used, and reasonably effective. Not sure how "better" authentication would improve things, for any value of "better" I can think of. > Anti-spam is magic: message accepted for delivery sometimes disappear with no > feedback to the sender, they are either dropped on the floor or delivered in > spam folder. Yep. I see no viable solutions to this problem. > Encryption: does STARTTLS and DANE solve everything? > Privacy: email that even the postmaster cannot read? I've already pointed out a few (but not all) of the serious issues with widespread end-to-end encryption on the perpass list. And we have not one, not two, not three, but four fully specified end-to-end encryption schemes for email, one of which (S/MIME) has significant client penetration. And once again, to a first approxication, nobody uses any of them. > Bounce and abuse processing: through mailbox or specific extensions, so > different rules are applied, and user readable DSN are generated (the problem > of STMP error one-liner (SMTP-error-tweeting))? Same answer as above: We built the technology, specifically standardized formats for DSNs and MDNs that are designed to be translated into other languages, and once again nobody cared enough to implement the client part. > I'm not saying these problems should be resolved, but they should be > mentioned, as they are recurring (mis-)use cases, or expectations from email > users. If standardization counts as solving, we've already solved most of these issues. The problem is getting the solutions deployed. And in most cases the sticking point is clients, users, or both. Of course you may argue that we solved them the wrong way. In which case you are welcome to write up a detailed alternative solution, along with supporting evidence as to why your solution will deploy whereas what's currently standardized has not. Ned From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:31:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81F51A0275 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:31:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id npDOXI7cCDuw for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-50.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-50-v6.csi.cam.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:212:8::e:f50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F2D1A011E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:31:26 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:44524) by ppsw-50.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.158]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1WLHXF-0002u3-ps (Exim 4.82_3-c0e5623) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:31:21 +0000 Received: from fanf2 by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local id 1WLHXE-0003bZ-Tj (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:31:20 +0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:31:20 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zmA3UvlPUWOEZiLA6INF_aOZQaQ Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:31:29 -0000 Dave Crocker wrote: > > [MUAs] aren't really reading an 822 object. They have a user interface for preparing an 822 object, plus whatever envelope fields the user might want to set. Note that IMAP does not have a way for storing envelope data for draft messages, so current MUAs have to invent a non-standard way of representing envelope-only fields in an 822 object. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Portland, Plymouth, North Biscay: Southerly or southwesterly 4, increasing 5 or 6. Moderate or rough. Occasional rain later. Good, occasionally poor later. From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:41:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C9C1A02A0 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id naNwuU0aTj3B for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C321A022A for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s25JfLrZ006692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:41:25 -0800 Message-ID: <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:40:15 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/nkF7Om1xsKyCySINCbb3KkoG6fY Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:41:35 -0000 On 3/5/2014 4:36 PM, Ned Freed wrote: > That's beside the point. Tony is talking about having a way to capture > what the > submitting client put in the envelope as part of the message header. For > things > like message copies put in a "Sent" folder. > >> and it has nothing to do with [E]SMTP. > > Perhaps not, but it has everything to do with SUBMIT. I meant the latter part of that note to touch what I think is that issue: standardizing the storage of the full set of envelope parameters into the 822 hearder field. Where a parameter already has an 822 home, then just cite it. Is there any challenge to writing up a mappings spec for this? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:44:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA2C1A02A0 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:44:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwleQPzK4P7R for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F8A1A0224 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fp1so1462235pdb.14 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:44:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=xgA7mXyiIkEXbOQT15lzrPatPgP6FetFJ7DZXkvTabY=; b=IajoCTmAy1HkgrTNkE8a0ByVJeBCEnjxNxnyRRuoY/UI5cKsecooPBjg0pz1/5k06a cL27p5QR6ftTUZTU+RQeE6J2Dupwaz+JXCBpr5ER3InLDNUruk0omcDT7i3nfsTz+LIQ KJbovc0NejTE22oBNGUpdKvLk/W11qfpQKlY4x5saLNq+f6CuuzqPMlU4l7lXbddybfe 3R9WBI5PZU1v37P305mU1VoVjHEPNYNh0y9KSeQ8gd+XBy2TJ5OX50GR+UJRJrZSk8+j LXdnyVI9VXL0U+brTrWooBmw3c4zA1mS0H792/CJRcNzuECY5hg4QdG0oorDQY04P6K9 jQIQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.231.35 with SMTP id td3mr9009795pbc.137.1394048683451; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:44:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:44:43 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33d59293ac2104f3e14063 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/KdNZ3_BUA_xk0AfHoHX1CjTffUg Cc: Ned Freed , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:44:49 -0000 --047d7b33d59293ac2104f3e14063 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > I meant the latter part of that note to touch what I think is that issue: > standardizing the storage of the full set of envelope parameters into the > 822 hearder field. Where a parameter already has an 822 home, then just > cite it. > > Is there any challenge to writing up a mappings spec for this? > > ...and should it be in this draft or a different one? I think the latter. -MSK --047d7b33d59293ac2104f3e14063 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker= .net> wrote:
I meant the latter part of that note to touc= h what I think is that issue: standardizing the storage of the full set of = envelope parameters into the 822 hearder field. =A0Where a parameter alread= y has an 822 home, then just cite it.

Is there any challenge to writing up a mappings spec for this?


...and should it be in this draft or a different one?=A0 I think the latte= r.

-MSK

--047d7b33d59293ac2104f3e14063-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:46:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420881A029F for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BorIauwuXwrW for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A041A01D1 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s25JjrFQ006925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:45:58 -0800 Message-ID: <53177EAF.6040508@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:44:47 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , Dave Crocker References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:45:59 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/pAV3QHp_an9F4G11vwrYJJBKUk4 Cc: Ned Freed , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:46:05 -0000 On 3/5/2014 7:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > ...and should it be in this draft or a different one? I think the latter. separate doc. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:47:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458461A0224 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:47:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxAvQOCne42x for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from agwhqht.amgreetings.com (agwhqht.amgreetings.com [207.58.192.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E1E1A01D1 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from USCLES544.agna.amgreetings.com ([fe80::f5de:4c30:bc26:d70a]) by USCLES533.agna.amgreetings.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:47:43 -0500 From: "MH Michael Hammer (5304)" To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , "Murray S. Kucherawy" Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities Thread-Index: AQHPOGIv5QUmmy/z0kGCINl0mBczLZrSyrWAgAACS4D//+Y6oYAAhUmAgAABP4CAAAAFgP//rOLQ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:47:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> <53177EAF.6040508@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <53177EAF.6040508@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.144.15.216] x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: scan successful x-kse-antivirus-info: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zdymUna927kezK0gIUM5h_x6jvg Cc: Ned Freed , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:47:49 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Dave Crocker > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:45 PM > To: Murray S. Kucherawy; Dave Crocker > Cc: Ned Freed; IETF Apps Discuss > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities >=20 > On 3/5/2014 7:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > ...and should it be in this draft or a different one? I think the latt= er. >=20 > separate doc. >=20 > d/ >=20 +1 for separate doc. From nobody Wed Mar 5 11:55:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258CF1A0251 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3jysJkheWU_k for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x22c.google.com (mail-pb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31971A01CD for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rp16so1533774pbb.3 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UKY5HFifawKImjZTjZ/Yy21sJ0eoGIn8MeZ5XamXHtg=; b=DfHHFU5x1NsDJC063sWJASGBdpUPw++ZAkVxRUnrOT04vDqi4KKhYLGUCiFPGJ57RN P2wc/gSvcq2nhJrtLGIalG6uiPfsj/iBwyAtk957o7vSy0DJ0zrpCTgJQe0pMhBemEQ9 5SAKaw6dGWv/XShT+Namq2k5TeYIEAQBCybD7mQWZ9/tQeCcF4ptV5pQr/81VDxjADw5 6SXB0sbZFDbvJwEbIg3WPuf4Z7jZyNeHTeaZQr8RS5NzGdcHwHWHP6tBJUzsmZ9asOux Nhlm1VC5w0BZJNGdksKVv0/Zh4BNs2AoM3VRBBOM0jRuoC7QUvTKBgk7avoL4GPJtUwF 2Kuw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.212.10 with SMTP id ng10mr9223750pbc.95.1394049329289; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53177EAF.6040508@dcrocker.net> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <5317236F.3030100@dcrocker.net> <01P52TN5YAAO00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> <53177D9F.9070507@dcrocker.net> <53177EAF.6040508@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:55:29 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb20888125fa904f3e1677b Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zboajLnKbYeADazez5kdSXZs7SM Cc: Ned Freed , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:55:34 -0000 --e89a8fb20888125fa904f3e1677b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/5/2014 7:44 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > >> ...and should it be in this draft or a different one? I think the latter. >> > > separate doc. > > Not it! --e89a8fb20888125fa904f3e1677b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker= .net> wrote:
On 3/5/2014 7:44 PM, Murray = S. Kucherawy wrote:
...and should it be in this draft or a different one? =A0I think the latter= .

separate doc.

<= br>
Not it!

--e89a8fb20888125fa904f3e1677b-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 12:57:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827CB1A070E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:57:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qkzT8qsCBs2 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [208.43.65.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09711A06F7 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB5795608A; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:57:01 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1394053021; bh=ckjgNPqgw6uzrWru8qC0/VeNPirZzsj/AuiwUbO3q6g=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Qe3G/+GSmjYvxC9Az/psVjkM9i0pLxMiOMBlSxUF5RC8pRNAv0UMJPKJ2jdERrZ/R idH/N3uymRaikKhzJ8ZADArwDmngIrfosFouqZznYFaDPSUcgoxHfbMYgL1fb8NBY1 jgvj4bALiZe94fFVBYwb9bm8ZfvgN83DnQxw+VwA= Received: from scott-latitude-e6320.localnet (static-72-81-252-21.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 678DA956086; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:57:01 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Kitterman To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:56:59 -0500 Message-ID: <2180640.mujezdryt0@scott-latitude-e6320> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.5 (Linux/3.11.0-17-generic; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <241959289.48974.1393944056931.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <241959289.48974.1393944056931.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2DsBGAtLr9EiTQ21tFdz0CNhWRQ Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:57:09 -0000 On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 08:40:56 Franck Martin wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kurt Andersen" > > To: "Franck Martin" > > Cc: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" , "IETF Apps Discuss" > > > > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 10:13:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Franck Martin < franck@peachymango.org > > > > > wrote: > > > The "tls" method can have the following results: > > > > > > > > > none: the message was sent in clear. > > > > > > > > > pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was > > > > > > verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. > > > > > > > > > softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > > > > self signed. > > > > > > > > > fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > > > > not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of > > > > > > the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... > > > > > > > > > temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able > > > > > > to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for > > > > > > instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. > > > > > > > > > permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate > > > > > > was not verified by the MTA server. > > > > I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the very > > least, > > one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them. > > > > To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects to this: > > 1) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS > > 2) if TLS, how "good" is the client cert > > > > Mixing the two concepts together makes it hard to figure out what is > > happening. If one was to further add in alignment requirements for cert > > and > > content (as has been discussed in some other arenas), the mess will only > > get worse. > > You note that I tried to put in "pass" only a result which is TLS and > "verified" via CA or DANE. A self signed certificate, should not give a > "pass". From there you can trust enough the Subject provided by the client > Certificate to do some forms of alignments. I'm fine with not giving a self-signed certificate a pass. I think that makes sense. Equally, I'm not fine with calling it a failure either. My suggestion is unverified. I'm happy to add support for this draft to the authres python module that I co-maintain once we get a few things sorted out: https://launchpad.net/authentication-results-python How about this: Expand/replace "fail" to "unverified" and "expired" (I can't think of another case). If I've concluded I don't care about verification, I think I also don't care about expiration, but if I do care about verification, then I think having "expired" is a useful error condition. It could be used to trigger an out of band complaint to the sender that they need to get their key updated. Add a new property for ptype "cert" called "verification" with values "ca", "dane", "policy", and "none" (policy would be if a receiver has, based on pre- arrangement, decided to treat a specific cert as valid from a receiver). I think those changes would resolve the issues we've discussed here. Additionally, I was reviewing what information is available via the Postfix policy service (see http://www.postfix.org/SMTPD_POLICY_README.html ) to get an idea how much information would be available to an external application to support injecting this header field. That led me to some additional questions/suggestions: How are low/medium/high strength defined? I looked in RFC 3207, which is the given reference, and didn't see it. As you will notice, Postfix returns the number of bits in the key, not low/medium/high. I would imagine that today's high is tomorrow's medium, so I think using a numeric value for key size would be better than low/medium/high. In combination with the algorithm, key size should be sufficient to make a determination if security for the connection was adequate or not (in combination with protocol [see below]). Certainly I think it would be better than a generic and undefined low/medium/high. I also noticed (now) that protocol version is not included. While today I doubt many care about SSLv3/TLSvWhatever, I suspect that eventually they will (if it was SSLv2, you ought to care). I'd propose adding a ptype for protocol with a property of "version" and values of "SSLv2", "SSLv3", "TLSv1", "TLSv1.1", and "TLSv1.2". I would also suggest adding a "fingerprint" property for the "key" ptype. I can envision knowing exactly which key was used being useful. Based on those changes, the example in the current draft might end up looking like: tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) tls.verification="ca" tls.client="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" tls.key.cipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA tls.protocol="TLSv1" tls.fingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" tls.strength=1024; Finally, trying to modify the example caused me to notice that, unlike all the 5451/7001 examples you don't include the ptype in your example. I think it's mandatory and to the extent the ABNF may allow for ptype to be omitted when property is present, I think it's a bug in the ABNF (I'm curious for msk's opinoin on that). Based on that, I think it should be: tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) tls.cert.verification="ca" tls.cert.client="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" tls.key.cipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA tls.protocol.version="TLSv1" tls.key.fingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" tls.key.strength=1024; What do you think? Scott K From nobody Wed Mar 5 14:32:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651E61A0119 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:32:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6DRH6ugUQBsK for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from orthanc.ca (neo.orthanc.ca [IPv6:2607:f2f8:abf8::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDED1A014F for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.42.6] (d66-183-221-35.bchsia.telus.net [66.183.221.35] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by orthanc.ca (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s25MWLTa064284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_93AEBAE0-0C19-490C-86B2-13991517CC80"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Lyndon Nerenberg In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:32:18 -0800 Message-Id: <88CEF70B-B17B-49FC-BF66-387EA87D3EA1@orthanc.ca> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> To: Tony Finch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/RbwrJteQqM0dvPddt2vvQxJBT6Y Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:32:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_93AEBAE0-0C19-490C-86B2-13991517CC80 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 5, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Tony Finch wrote: > Note that IMAP does not have a way for storing envelope data for draft > messages, so current MUAs have to invent a non-standard way of > representing envelope-only fields in an 822 object. MH has a long tradition of pushing this message construction meta-data = into the headers of (draft) messages, too. Somewhat coincidentally, the = nmh developers are going through an almost parallel discussion of *822 = header (ab)use in this context. --lyndon --Apple-Mail=_93AEBAE0-0C19-490C-86B2-13991517CC80 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTF6XyAAoJEG8PnXiV/JnUms0P/2GAepVgR2cwe5Di7IM7PNoE r1toqxFM5rlygMjx2YHHPCT9un/93Msl18n9ePa6r65dlUEsz4cxKkcmAQNsAGSS vxHyalSbZp2q0N/sBPfuIaMePFe0dwMXxzp+tF2/Zx3xOfp1VzE9HlTTMfsY0B2k b6mbTXsWuRGr2SoYR+6ljsDpnM6/kIru+sQX1lNa0UYFG7/QHNOOrIEfoO0ZWHaG SYHmrJtRzafzYcwBp+ArNDCgpUEqK3ZECTr7caxx2JeuzNBRQtgKUP1ksz8X3HDD QYOI3E32suNoXY/UOmg5Lc7Lber6B+r21dxZxD0cnGeDGqyKYvAcJOmoxC4ssRIi qkjn9k6MTwsC9DH0+siMzkibD58FyQqnjMVCycwVnhzeId1nrb0C/NpZpVnTeu1T CNWc1cijncEX5GJInWoSvJUA/NIkgpbmUnvfu0kWT565iUjJuupXqx7kdInE0tYb ivTCYy0VzM10Rx2eyeUxz40nq033xy2JP6wXu6RX7HUshSHLVsNwdYjbdRzE20Ux tREuamT4z6plIRwy35dnIrEK80qN8yUxJIu5nkv1HOJ8tCsQ30r+bL1Q7v3Qe4ST /6RcKG6k2sP9mD1r+A+qCbHBjx/ODb78PqbspvS/Tn76K4gPFaguKfzcjTvKpHCE HvlzYBR27wTHvVgf6/3U =Lacp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_93AEBAE0-0C19-490C-86B2-13991517CC80-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 23:58:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2F41A012F for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:58:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EODNGpBrhJ-1 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com (mail-pa0-f52.google.com [209.85.220.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2641A012B for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rd3so2309728pab.39 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=nGI2JItaA8AJ5z6V88JzkbrgmBrt0mbVn80700yozmc=; b=U7Jt0WaQhWNikb0OdPL89SOpqgeXrSAQpVyyw0cFNQzLtNmIWgZMzEr8HwN3YHylr9 +mI4OliK/XHY3Avve24fDNZ0hEA8UIw6H5DM0XMo1KWccyRqFAacZEboxlOQT4o91NVd 4Vk4yZpf/K1Uy5f3YwblHaw9xOwODxGlaeA4/k20LsccxCs8uxurL37Ae5Re/acQip8a KfvugfvQgCTw3N1IdKUd/baCpytisg/8HJpgdRjWnSwYR6s/iz+ZUi597ooe1Xc2oIG2 dvuWLcDn9n0OaMvDAKQ9by/1ziffiHflXjsKTPJZvoA3bbVYuUgsExR/qCAoWR0i24cr nuRw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJPM5bGIpU0ZV+XotA5MpVodaZs+9RC2pEehYRjmcnmdjr8HyDgbUvLQA6BG3PPdOTBCgN MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.232.68 with SMTP id tm4mr12533284pac.114.1394092724624; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.143.4 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2001:67c:370:160:c59b:d633:fb87:4fcf] In-Reply-To: <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:58:44 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andrew Newton To: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ObwHSYfKSP_e2pM7KBBIK_PyDi4 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:58:50 -0000 My major objection to URI templates was the extra retrieval of the template, but that is solved with their inclusion in the bootstrap. However, looking at a real world extension to one of the existing RDAP queries I am beginning to wonder if URI templates are more of a liability. Currently /domain/example.com returns the relevant domain registration, info about DNSSEC, nameservers, contacts, etc... For /domain/136.192.in-addr.arpa there may sometimes be a need to add in related network registration information (actually, RIPE and ARIN do this today with their custom REST interfaces). To signal this a client could optionally add the query parameter ?needNets=true. If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the RIRs modify their templates to http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe John is absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much. -andy On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM, John Levine wrote: >>Looking at the above "key-value table that supports longest-match >>lookups resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a >>query that will either return an answer or a redirection", this to me >>smells like over-engineering even just when reading it (not to speak of >>having to implement it). >> >>Of course, if the WEIRDS WG is happy with that, ... > > Not particularly, but our preferred solution, a fixed URL suffix > syntax that we append to a per-thing (domain, IP range, etc.) prefix > is apparently forbidden to us. > > The redirects have been there all along to provide a less broken > version of what thin WHOIS does now. > > R's, > John > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Thu Mar 6 00:03:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F8C1A0121 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:03:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ihjBHe6uj-O for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CB31A0147 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (client-86-29-52-76.glfd.adsl.virginm.net [86.29.52.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2682nFi030745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:02:57 -0800 Message-ID: <53182B67.3030705@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:01:43 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lyndon Nerenberg , Tony Finch References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> <88CEF70B-B17B-49FC-BF66-387EA87D3EA1@orthanc.ca> In-Reply-To: <88CEF70B-B17B-49FC-BF66-387EA87D3EA1@orthanc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:02:59 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/-jM_NrHdRMSlCmSIXhkZDtwWfP0 Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net, IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:03:09 -0000 On 3/5/2014 10:32 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > MH has a long tradition of pushing this message construction meta-data into the headers of (draft) messages, too. Somewhat coincidentally, the nmh developers are going through an almost parallel discussion of *822 header (ab)use in this context. MH is still being worked on? wow. http://bbiw.net/articles/rand-email.pdf d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Mar 6 00:53:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD47D1A0164; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:53:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zM6ulRCnICs0; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22b.google.com (mail-pd0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D031A0160; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id r10so2270849pdi.30 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:53:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=PBdIN0CLjQT7TsRHvh0rxwEGkFzmIIIW1ISgBMYlrVo=; b=LaoE23XXZ5rcX+SkcXPe3Ztao+D1n4mDAG4Xo17we8IWsVh1+e0cB7ks1N/Hn/zrcp dObsMENWo1o0hmd7P0tOirIr0930CRIeeIZKwUsdwkC7pEL/P8I1QWG8i1bshaIzgNev d8s/wsUNjA2zmR714PGuplRw/0ZOT5ck1OM6/6FktVKKjtPwi3iKDK0cc4SFq2ZU4lyY Zhjdes8Mru/8O0iFTvIQnuM3bpzSnacnmExYq7/4M1x5TmDJ9/akQZRIQGznCCU0CfW4 +vBxoMJCv4LRj/FB2auSr75LSVE9JpL/tCxZ2Uv0f5wl4hV6j4f0sw1gjxFiHHklG31Q QKiA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.231.35 with SMTP id td3mr12565731pbc.137.1394096002524; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:53:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:53:22 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Andrew Newton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33d592036a8704f3ec45aa Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/7ybgtEyKPHY62qt2QG-XeAdztDM Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:53:27 -0000 --047d7b33d592036a8704f3ec45aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Newton wrote: > If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the > RIRs modify their templates to > http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of > the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". > Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. > > If constrained to prefix URIs only and thus limited to search-and-replace, how would a client tell an RIR that it wants to set the needNets flag? -MSK --047d7b33d592036a8704f3ec45aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us&= gt; wrote:
=
If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the
RIRs modify their templates to
http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets=3D{needNets}, clients u= naware of
the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets"= .
Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here.


If constrained to prefix URIs only and= thus limited to search-and-replace, how would a client tell an RIR that it= wants to set the needNets flag?

-MSK
--047d7b33d592036a8704f3ec45aa-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 01:07:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21AA1A0166; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kdzOCk7ZUwGY; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916F51A0178; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id p10so2276988pdj.31 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:07:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1rWewr2BeLkGp1Ddt+Rd8Ms8f9+xipUBlBdSp4KgEFE=; b=QjAUfFvD8YXHEyX18DXRR0yBlHkVXg8ZH3/QUWclPcD4v/OqUC2c0Mou0WqsyNiZNq tjgjhiB58GC7liYhl2eItdTJM4IdjF4t9RVjAVtCio3vNgfDKdj6DE4IRN4Pz3itMTy+ QY5CttPu2HzPIVS+xQOn+FnLKoOnG9018hiNrEjZcHwAdu7uzF4lGeQnWrrYs4WTE9lk /poz4rkLTuwPDLGCVS1+gDj9nxKB3E7fDxTU9GXIG7bpZh11VAOQJs0qOKvkEftr/p1n Eo8nNtyX1vyEhVVkjfSgg0pK3l5yMav0x3Ji4ZvK88VBxB9Yum2SvrNlz2dygzU6wrTJ IM1Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.118.71 with SMTP id kk7mr13073413pab.14.1394096860878; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:07:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:07:40 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Andrew Newton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffbad052cdd7e04f3ec7873 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/KSywpB1XJO27Rt9KOhJ_IFm2TQM Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:07:48 -0000 --e89a8ffbad052cdd7e04f3ec7873 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Newton wrote: > If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the > RIRs modify their templates to > http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of > the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". > Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. > > If constrained to prefix URIs only and thus limited to search-and-replace, how would a client tell an RIR that it wants to set the needNets flag? -MSK --e89a8ffbad052cdd7e04f3ec7873 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us&= gt; wrote:
=
If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the
RIRs modify their templates to
http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets=3D{needNets}, clients u= naware of
the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets"= .
Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here.


If constrained to prefix URIs only and= thus limited to search-and-replace, how would a client tell an RIR that it= wants to set the needNets flag?

-MSK
--e89a8ffbad052cdd7e04f3ec7873-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 01:44:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA191A01AE for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:44:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AabLyuQWVo8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x22f.google.com (mail-ob0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA7A1A019D for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id uy5so2297240obc.6 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:44:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=VHocO8rx+BKEA6D6lX+342/ifRGrD/ZgstYFX9x5oAk=; b=hDmB3xtbNpaEMFJU2yTSnCB2EdmmCYMAMnDCQYoFdot6by0XdGNWV6486sk3+eFE03 1rGHfL2x83CwM3Zamy7WcB6oQlHTXGq3Fm2LjXpBj/tr/yfgVN/nh+/WKdb0h+ayLXZG 9MKhncl/7WcUhb1EYGvp0T0klSbgLKSupmblqSnJAf7Q510t3apzUOp8/GZ0XjRwQYw2 czPJrpPYbtri18sQcvGTUTbKyTmhrY/+hUD/uA2wi9cILDFAZsheCJ4T94qB99UnCt44 /eJIBkQRRvjt54m77fYGpaHy4SALbEJUyr8oug81AG88DoN2QFZ6+G7iihq2VxlX452i DTQA== X-Received: by 10.60.44.8 with SMTP id a8mr4831043oem.19.1394099089223; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:44:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.48.9 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:44:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53182B67.3030705@dcrocker.net> References: <678A010F-AB67-4746-AE63-2CD6ED79F60A@dotat.at> <53177070.5060400@dcrocker.net> <88CEF70B-B17B-49FC-BF66-387EA87D3EA1@orthanc.ca> <53182B67.3030705@dcrocker.net> From: Scott Brim Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:44:29 +0000 Message-ID: To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/IHEeK0m-zGa0m8aJ4DL9OGP9Vss Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Adding email capabilities X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:44:55 -0000 Yes. Also the Emacs MH-E community is strong. It's a good mail UI. On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/5/2014 10:32 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> >> MH has a long tradition of pushing this message construction meta-data >> into the headers of (draft) messages, too. Somewhat coincidentally, the nmh >> developers are going through an almost parallel discussion of *822 header >> (ab)use in this context. > > > > MH is still being worked on? wow. > > http://bbiw.net/articles/rand-email.pdf > > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:06:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F0E1A01E0 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UmdPcphSclPM for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411081A01C1 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fp1so2344245pdb.14 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:06:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=w707kHIURZQaGA/VjpUxI2N1N/Yr1lTUyq/84OFbvJA=; b=vc1ZQgU0xu0bkR2go/0XddKd6oIVGbk/YhlvyTnvRJibJcVfyc2r7qa3VUyRSXIGTt qRVbMA4XExCjM+HawTJcyr2XRorvk8bd8mdz8Kdr+c9GJX/kEhzJ9MM2YRRgw/JxLYhJ RkM02MiTMvuLz8js1hvdPR5YBATrrFd2+xKtUpl6VeBXj7eEB3hLmnvzy9ODJ64JOIx6 vWhoHdGZRMFaeTn3C6YJSwRLOfuFsXbkfZ0UqjODpNuSuWK1sRWKNB2zO5GaaEf6cHM/ RsDlgBxmfIcUHL9Ig4Wp+rKLniWNGdkBpROaIe64LCJvY2u96lkoXcDH9L5cJ23VJJA6 k1ZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.60.225 with SMTP id k1mr13400644pbr.58.1394100371397; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:06:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:06:11 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544eef26b25f404f3ed4989 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2785Us5umMtBVJXeUR_mPJOKMI8 Subject: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:06:17 -0000 --bcaec544eef26b25f404f3ed4989 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Given Franck's draft and the SMTP-specific work going on in DANE, it looks like we're going to want the ability to report things via Authentication-Results (RFC7001) beyond what it's currently capable of reporting. Specifically, there's one token in the ABNF that is constrained to report things about the envelope, headers, body, or local policy issues only; it can't easily report things about keys, certificates, DANE results, etc. DANE is doing work specifically on SMTP now. It looks like the simplest path forward is a small ABNF change with a matching IANA action to create a small registry of legal values. Since this WG processed RFC7001, it seems appropriate to handle this change as well. Unfortunately, this won't be backward-compatible with RFC7001, so we're looking at a "v=2" kind of deal. Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to provide comments and reviews on such a work item? -MSK --bcaec544eef26b25f404f3ed4989 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given Franck's draft and the SMTP-specific w= ork going on in DANE, it looks like we're going to want the ability to = report things via Authentication-Results (RFC7001) beyond what it's cur= rently capable of reporting.=A0 Specifically, there's one token in the = ABNF that is constrained to report things about the envelope, headers, body= , or local policy issues only; it can't easily report things about keys= , certificates, DANE results, etc.=A0 DANE is doing work specifically on SM= TP now.

It looks like the simplest path forward is a small ABNF change wi= th a matching IANA action to create a small registry of legal values.=A0 Si= nce this WG processed RFC7001, it seems appropriate to handle this change a= s well.=A0 Unfortunately, this won't be backward-compatible with RFC700= 1, so we're looking at a "v=3D2" kind of deal.

Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to prov= ide comments and reviews on such a work item?

-MSK
--bcaec544eef26b25f404f3ed4989-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:13:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052031A01F7 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:13:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-ndU_eOjQwf for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D8A1A01DB for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:13:54 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-3a-53184a5eabce Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3B.9A.23809.E5A48135; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:13:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.128]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:13:47 +0100 From: Salvatore Loreto To: Larry Masinter Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data Thread-Index: Ac84gXufK6GD3MniSWS8t+uAjWJ48gAmuWaA Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:13:46 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA0C504-83EC-460D-BAF8-707A1B361B06@ericsson.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <529D301E2BB7EF4ABA432F7974283F8D@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6cl0SwwfdP6harX65gs/h3ZwKz xbMFT1gcmD2m/exh9liy5CeTx9F5+1kDmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mjb/O8dSsJG3Yst7sQbG fVxdjJwcEgImEteXv2GDsMUkLtxbD2RzcQgJHGKU6HjylRHCWcwosWbuA7AqNgEziecPtzCD 2CIC6hLfjr9jB7GZBQIlTjevZgGxhQUcJJo7FjNC1DhKzP45iRXCNpKYueoHE4jNIqAicefh PrB6XgF7ia5rO8BsIYFQiadXloPt4hQIk1jxaRnYLkag676fWsMEsUtc4taT+UwQVwtILNlz nhnCFpV4+fgfK4StJLFi+yVGiHodiQW7P7FB2NYSXX1HoWxtiWULXzND3CAocXLmE5YJjOKz kKyYhaR9FpL2WUjaZyFpX8DIuoqRPTcxMye93GgTIzDODm75rbqD8c45kUOM0hwsSuK8H946 BwkJpCeWpGanphakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpg9J9YtuDXjqTJat52N44nVydNObYgZlLpHcZz /1q8dtvuqFktHPPJeL8cu7yy3TkZsR9bf2m/X+lipnDIyNjG+7Tiws9JCy8mXnBedS274avf 3DP3v+2vbDp3rMdUvqw1emp49fXdXoc5NR+7T72qqXP06Y+LlruWSP89vZWh66XY7BkiRet2 71NiKc5INNRiLipOBAAjbix9gQIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/imI1tG5Hz80SV6XavmuYTrC13VU Cc: Philippe Le Hegaret , IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:13:57 -0000 Hi Larry, thanks for the mini-charter description we really need people committed to provide comments and perform document re= views in order to be sure that there is enough energy to get this work done. so people interested in helping and let this work to progress, have to volunteer for it=20 replying to this message in the mailing list or sending an email to Murray = and myself thanks in advance for your help /Salvatore On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > Problem: Many/most current implementations of "multipart/form-data" do no= t match RFC 2388 > They don't necessarily match either other, either. > In scope: Fix the spec to be consistent with deployed implementations, r= ecommend=20 > more consistent behavior, give implementation advice f= or compatibility > Out of scope: Alternative representations to MIME multipart > Why appropriate for APPSAWG: No current working group is close to this t= opic. Small document > not worth a new WG. >=20 >=20 > What I don't have is a list of the names of five people who have committe= d to provide timely reviews (or even untimely reviews).=20 > But there have in the past been people who have raised their hands. =20 >=20 > Working with Philippe yesterday, we made some good progress on the test = framework toward integrating it with the W3C web platform test. > I expect to make some substantial revisions based on recent results. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:20:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB0F1A0220 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:20:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCEuxrlHCo-J for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x231.google.com (mail-pd0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F53E1A022F for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f177.google.com with SMTP id g10so2324640pdj.8 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:19:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Aec93KJZI+lNfAhHR4x16GT6hEjlItaDjvhjX82tnkM=; b=SaS7Ti0vH9WlhZ5rtuK378Fp6y6zxZqWdgCz4GanDygi7ElLaNaKexDfssSZ7Q36Ln PrmueaQ0x976e4AjiyFyn223tqz9xXS2Sfe0xf9izX9M8sMcxq1lYSQZeaLEPPvN1Es9 KFS7oKNDDrTzWtNaac2OCRXg/Vphajq3qF0cdcYkyztldN8BzGNbC+cnqsRzr6Erpg7J tZZgWr4y0CQux20LGzviS+3y+Fq6Kd6bNPREViPT0S2Rw6nAoTVpMgs35aBVsXbJN2Hq Ll/mvmfrEiASUaBmn+oddLaQhOzee0gaQ2RlLrk5/bWhuQQkduGVQjsssjVDsWYJMaGw Ug1g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.170.36 with SMTP id aj4mr13581054pbc.54.1394101196280; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:19:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3AA0C504-83EC-460D-BAF8-707A1B361B06@ericsson.com> References: <3AA0C504-83EC-460D-BAF8-707A1B361B06@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:19:56 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Salvatore Loreto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacb21c95d7c704f3ed7a46 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/8uIAG4jvepXK7zeyQNwL1-XXkS8 Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:20:05 -0000 --047d7bacb21c95d7c704f3ed7a46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Salvatore Loreto < salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote: > thanks for the mini-charter description > we really need people committed to provide comments and perform document > reviews > in order to be sure that there is enough energy to get this work done. > > so people interested in helping and let this work to progress, > have to volunteer for it > replying to this message in the mailing list or sending an email to Murray > and myself > I've uploaded this text to the wiki, but yes, we also need the committed reviewers and a proposed milestone. -MSK --047d7bacb21c95d7c704f3ed7a46 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Salvatore Loreto <salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote:
thanks for the mini-charter description
we really need people committed to provide comments and perform document reviews
in order to be sure that there is enough energy to get this work done.

so people interested in helping and let this work to progress,
have to volunteer for it
replying to this message in the mailing list or sending an email to Murray and myself

I've uploaded this text to the wiki, but yes, we also need the committed reviewers and a proposed milestone.

-MSK
--047d7bacb21c95d7c704f3ed7a46-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:27:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AFB1A01B7 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:27:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ezdm9WUfKxMl for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ADD1A0239 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s26AQtNL001905; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:26:55 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3bbe_1308_d73afe3c_a519_11e3_a071_001e6722eec2; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:26:54 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF672BF4CC; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:26:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <53184D67.7070609@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:26:47 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , Salvatore Loreto References: <3AA0C504-83EC-460D-BAF8-707A1B361B06@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/hVoMSfEMQdo6qWMETnl2EnX1Pec Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:27:11 -0000 On 2014/03/06 19:19, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Salvatore Loreto < > salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> thanks for the mini-charter description >> we really need people committed to provide comments and perform document >> reviews >> in order to be sure that there is enough energy to get this work done. >> >> so people interested in helping and let this work to progress, >> have to volunteer for it >> replying to this message in the mailing list or sending an email to Murray >> and myself >> > > I've uploaded this text to the wiki, Can you please remove the sentence "Why appropriate for APPSAWG: No current working group is close to this topic. Small document not worth a new WG."? It's very good to have something like this in the discussion that leads to acceptance, but it doesn't belong in the mini-charter itself. > but yes, we also need the committed > reviewers and a proposed milestone. I commit to doing a (maybe untimely) review. Regards, Martin. > -MSK > > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:32:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E58E1A01C8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:32:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1amRpwZTdcX3 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CAE91A01AF for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id fa1so2489961pad.0 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:32:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=tCRu+MeL1ZljAG6nTn8QrWQ8ybkJAXkBxvpLjoCv17U=; b=P9rMCeXwdh4Ewq9hZxRnyll9H74mxEUswolN8K2E+AusY8dH2VfUgre5CUR5lpTSh9 vZEEoWH8wrglEZDetyvBUhvHF+4rZv0+YKVs/+qj5YHP03ZhxydjQt2uO322tJDp+vwm bRTKPd3nRonKax8T2LaILmouY+X0V7epDuHcEzqn27TTKWJ63gIL1u4FAAgvMyv+WWvQ ynDSCJ+l55xrHeu1Gf2/6FRKSVf5D72NmRSjTqm/trGl6esuXHz0hapf8PhtKWwkUyIu xRDDviS2TOoB5DQTd3AcVIsMtpd3aiENLpQdOWEWxdswngAT7GzGG4UZJppYy7Gf4/6W fh/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.60.225 with SMTP id k1mr13534403pbr.58.1394101944466; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:32:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53184D67.7070609@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <3AA0C504-83EC-460D-BAF8-707A1B361B06@ericsson.com> <53184D67.7070609@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:32:24 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544eef22e430c04f3eda79e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/CbT2hntiExV-7at0jdWqDUwj8qc Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] mini-charter for multipart-form-data X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:32:29 -0000 --bcaec544eef22e430c04f3eda79e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:26 AM, "Martin J. D=FCrst" wrote: > > Can you please remove the sentence "Why appropriate for APPSAWG: No > current working group is close to this topic. Small document not worth a > new WG."? It's very good to have something like this in the discussion th= at > leads to acceptance, but it doesn't belong in the mini-charter itself. > > > but yes, we also need the committed >> reviewers and a proposed milestone. >> > > I commit to doing a (maybe untimely) review. > Done and done. -MSK --bcaec544eef22e430c04f3eda79e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:26 AM, "Martin J. D=FCrst&q= uot; <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
<= br>
Can you please remove the sentence "Why appropriate for APPSAWG: No cu= rrent working group is close to this topic. Small document not worth a new = WG."? It's very good to have something like this in the discussion= that leads to acceptance, but it doesn't belong in the mini-charter it= self.


but yes, we also need the committed
reviewers and a proposed milestone.

I commit to doing a (maybe untimely) review.

Done and done.

-MSK
--bcaec544eef22e430c04f3eda79e-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:36:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446071A0252; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ucyKgwxzqzpd; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x234.google.com (mail-pd0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AA91A023E; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f180.google.com with SMTP id v10so2385205pde.11 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:36:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=YgczRJKc6D9MyTPGuq+X9q+fHHPZ9uGjkNl4w45rPCM=; b=i1lFwxZfIxsVi1Q5/wa4uW0caDQf47lyAGFiWhiN1/5AlFjnJnpkhT0m+4rJ2pIKgs yM3Q/pRXJ9vqWN9O1h5iAKB1hEeOaZP92TCXh4rc2frd1CTg/xB+srqR1SYpkIjFF3Yl rQ/5cn0WS17C+YyDqfoBrsX6orSXc2/+Fm8xeu1bJDhiYerXV6iFZKZJgXIpKjXBiMCq 4NGYdGzX3LZSNWZexYztlO67Xn9dvOX7LbsdFZ1vCtNchzRgXiSgufMg4sRaokCagXew uevFIpmqKWEDrqSJu9wMDXdVyeS/Swp5Lzz0C5k76H4e5BALvcirDFL3O0HstQuoUw7T zO2g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.250.202 with SMTP id ze10mr13452745pac.153.1394102172373; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 02:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:36:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:36:12 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: James Mitchell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b15aeedc3d7ef04f3edb440 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/-K8HXepaX778p-9cKkftM9j5Sw0 Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:36:18 -0000 --047d7b15aeedc3d7ef04f3edb440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about a client that doesn't know what CONTEXT to use? If the answer to that is that a client always has to fill in two variables instead of one, then you're basically doing templates. On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, James Mitchell < james.mitchell@ausregistry.com.au> wrote: > What if the registry contains a base URL for the composition of RDAP path= s? > > e.g. > { > =B3com=B2 : =B3rdap.verisign.com=B2, > =B3au=B2 : =B3rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT=B2 > } > > A client would append =B3/domain/<>=B2, e.g. > rdap.verisign.com/domain/example.com and > rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT/domain/example.com.au. Allows server= s > to place a registry-selector in the path name while keeping the whole > thing pretty simple. > > Thanks, > James > > On 6/03/2014 9:24 am, "Hollenbeck, Scott" > wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: weirds [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew > >> Newton > >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 2:59 AM > >> To: John Levine; weirds@ietf.org > >> Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report > > > >[SAH] > > > >> Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe John is > >> absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much. > > > >Are you suggesting a move back to what we had in the document prior to > >the change to .well-known, and no template(s)? > > > >Scott > > > >_______________________________________________ > >weirds mailing list > >weirds@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds > > _______________________________________________ > weirds mailing list > weirds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds > --047d7b15aeedc3d7ef04f3edb440 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What about a client that doesn't know what CONTEX= T to use?

If the answer to that is that a client always has to= fill in two variables instead of one, then you're basically doing temp= lates.


On Thu,= Mar 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, James Mitchell <james.mitchell@a= usregistry.com.au> wrote:
What if the registry contains a base URL for= the composition of RDAP paths?

e.g.
{
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =B3com=B2 : =B3rdap.verisign.com=B2,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =B3au=B2 : =B3rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT=B2 }

A client would append =B3/domain/<<domain-name>>=B2, e.g.
r= dap.verisign.com/domain/example.com and
rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT/domain/example.co= m.au. Allows servers
to place a registry-selector in the path name while keeping the whole
thing pretty simple.

Thanks,
James

On 6/03/2014 9:24 am, "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck@verisign.com> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: weirds [mailto:we= irds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
>> Newton
>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 2:59 AM
>> To: John Levine; weirds@ietf.or= g
>> Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org=
>> Subject: Re: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report
>
>[SAH]
>
>> Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe Joh= n is
>> absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much.
>
>Are you suggesting a move back to what we had in the document prior to<= br> >the change to .well-known, and no template(s)?
>
>Scott
>
>_______________________________________________
>weirds mailing list
>weirds@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds

_______________________________________________
weirds mailing list
weirds@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds

--047d7b15aeedc3d7ef04f3edb440-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:52:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65961A0257 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:52:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHl500vCszMZ for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94D41A0249 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 79902 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2014 10:51:55 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=1381d.5318534b.k1403; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Zn3U69FrNBYPqBsR1tE/Jpk9Upo36Z7MGpMZi2Zpgo0=; b=BEaODPQdDMhqgv2HQ3/HmnWtpmSugHrSHcbZQim0Y4VDhZkZ3mdjaQsnZBdNiDPLVFTtW5LBhJOeuVDlKNV/xjVBZYXSihSSD9xC5om41BBfVYJcL0tkAtjecakXtYhZRqEmBWp4sCl1nsTgrtlm4ZYFk9jYgQRw+allARXcBdRqgtsjCJC9EffoQ2CiY9HQ/A8Fa1lQB/Duuyq8CCz9YlvlC/PX+fUoP/mIlN3iJmj2rA6mH3yRj7AIsNdS/SQJ DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=1381d.5318534b.k1403; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Zn3U69FrNBYPqBsR1tE/Jpk9Upo36Z7MGpMZi2Zpgo0=; b=pTYWHPMX6rtHf83VgAo7CjyG8S+62TYgF+/AY8vvNALYYMMLBWPgXLIWMfTbD2EpBZktHzbpjg1hd5ff65RLGKGGZfVoDHKalXJiceF8Frg/sxikhFeCThbb3pLxa//Q6XFOMuJaICtcEipSOA+TNH/wHCTGyXMunaoNe2B3sM1jWe3MnI8miGfDhF0Px1LqujtlNUJzBa5hmHoxIPOdeaKniBhlIyoTvIbj/KhOi2fVreBEmOVJfqlGHO8FnOfx Received: from dhcp-hotel-wifi-157-aa.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.157.170]) by nimap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.76]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 06 Mar 2014 10:51:54 -0000 Date: 6 Mar 2014 10:51:52 +0000 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/BoNs6Z1t4gIy78dlmgWbvppfrxY Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:52:02 -0000 >> If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the >> RIRs modify their templates to >> http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of >> the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". >> Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. >> >> > If constrained to prefix URIs only and thus limited to search-and-replace, > how would a client tell an RIR that it wants to set the needNets flag? If it were me, I'd have an IANA registry of fixed prefixes for queries, so whatever it was, it'd be in the registry. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:57:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7041A0233 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.563 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14YtTAMHLYjX for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284331A025C for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 80625 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2014 10:56:59 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=13af0.5318547b.k1403; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=jKqpztOPrCGVzmT2GOudZl4LnubAc74+oLB/VvhpMZc=; b=CSWekorY1sEgYdojslLvvGZalJJz5dRqhirHwj2rGXiLIRHRqk7YcgRd7MBbkw31xZZWG0ZLd/2Xq29yUqeGymDfiwwSdw3ZljZvZkY1FjAP/WlAkH3aT5xD/iByLXZFu9mTEesUEOs44bSO7591yw40JWzI4odGKhVZ8g/r2GG2wRdWjG74thzWKVEBnIlQ1HKGGosJlsq5oRgXMJFr7cwayM+bBdUbJe0pziEFoWEMlZ3ryoknEqCrK8UcsnJ7 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=13af0.5318547b.k1403; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=jKqpztOPrCGVzmT2GOudZl4LnubAc74+oLB/VvhpMZc=; b=1oLMInKA0+7LwDyyiVJ4KzkJ8eu79mCJu9Hbb4mA2sHRbTkzQnaZmZBSqQH8/lWBw+cMzTMOqWmmNHqBocK6TmKTXNO/eRkmU1oAp6PRGQgdYv8s2L08xlqq/diWFP6xR3mcmVa6IrhkSYndg6i6DdP1rwVi8UlaIMm9rw5/KWzuEMsDPraZ2NC+665aQnslTdJZCqYoOKyVDDloRa/Ipa9j8wY72R0MlOiWk+zGdnDfsijS18ydf1Ekh7POck5l Received: from dhcp-hotel-wifi-157-aa.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.157.170]) by nimap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.76]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 06 Mar 2014 10:56:58 -0000 Date: 6 Mar 2014 10:56:56 +0000 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "James Mitchell" In-Reply-To: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="3825401791-917949633-1394103418=:24084" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/kPngNuWVaxApEQ9VJ7iHRj44hFE Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:57:05 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --3825401791-917949633-1394103418=:24084 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > What if the registry contains a base URL for the composition of RDAP paths? > > e.g. > { > ³com² : ³rdap.verisign.com², > ³au² : ³rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT² > } > > A client would append ³/domain/<>², e.g. > rdap.verisign.com/domain/example.com and > rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT/domain/example.com.au. Allows servers > to place a registry-selector in the path name while keeping the whole > thing pretty simple. That was more or less the original plan. That came up in the design team meeting and I think that Mark said that they'd tell us that was not good practice but they'd probably let us do it. Given the range of questions that people might ask, if we go the template route I don't see much alternative to an explosion of NxM templates (N query types and M domains, IPs, etc.) I suppose we could try three metatemplates and a registry, but ugh. R's, John --3825401791-917949633-1394103418=:24084-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:57:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952901A0274; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDetNxFAPASA; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from egssmtp02.att.com (egssmtp02.att.com [144.160.128.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678A31A0237; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by egssmtp02.att.com ( egs 8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s26Av0OO013705; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:57:00 -0800 Received: from vpn-135-70-101-180.vpn.swst.att.com ([135.70.101.180]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20140306105659gw100j0c4ae>; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:56:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.101.180] Message-ID: <5318547A.80805@att.com> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:56:58 -0500 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "weirds@ietf.org" References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/wQzjz7JG0RTqyObAyW_SypMrYVY Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:57:06 -0000 On 3/6/14, 2:58 AM, Andrew Newton wrote: > My major objection to URI templates was the extra retrieval of the > template, but that is solved with their inclusion in the bootstrap. > > However, looking at a real world extension to one of the existing RDAP > queries I am beginning to wonder if URI templates are more of a > liability. Currently /domain/example.com returns the relevant domain > registration, info about DNSSEC, nameservers, contacts, etc... For > /domain/136.192.in-addr.arpa there may sometimes be a need to add in > related network registration information (actually, RIPE and ARIN do > this today with their custom REST interfaces). To signal this a client > could optionally add the query parameter ?needNets=true. > > If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the > RIRs modify their templates to > http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of > the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". > Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. I disagree. The rule for such options should be that *) any parameters that are unknown SHOULD be removed, as in "?needNets=" from the previous example *) the server MUST handle extension parameters that are empty *) the server MUST treat extension parameters with an unexpanded value such as "{needNets}" as if it were empty In other words, if the server receives "?needNets={needNets}" OR "?needNets=" it needs to do the right thing. And the "simple" sed script mentioned in the room that does expansion just needs an additional -e 's/{[^}]*}//g'. Tony Hansen From nobody Thu Mar 6 03:11:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328A61A0293 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 03:11:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c9rf6h4I4j9l for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 03:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469F51A025F for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 03:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E143F5D94; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:32 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90Pk2VWNSdmx; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355F83F601A; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F88B3F5FE8; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:32 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id U3hgaa-T0-GJ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0536D3F5D94; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:11:31 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: Scott Kitterman Message-ID: <875450479.118630.1394104291271.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: References: <233559187.7077.1393833441181.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <241959289.48974.1393944056931.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> <2180640.mujezdryt0@scott-latitude-e6320> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [91.225.250.8] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: yMDgO52VHN629dLw9uNLllN+sgpDEA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ThMKFRr40GC3Ebn2Ykc33sCX8M4 Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 11:11:42 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Kitterman" > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:56:59 PM > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 08:40:56 Franck Martin wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Kurt Andersen" > > > To: "Franck Martin" > > > Cc: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" , "IETF Apps Discuss" > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 10:13:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] > > > draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-00.txt > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Franck Martin < franck@peachymango.org > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > The "tls" method can have the following results: > > > > > > > > > > > > none: the message was sent in clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > pass: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate was > > > > > > > > verified valid either using a trusted CA or via DANE [RFC6698]. > > > > > > > > > > > > softfail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > > > > > > self signed. > > > > > > > > > > > > fail: the message was sent encrypted but the client certificate is > > > > > > > > not valid. It is advised to use comments to indicate the nature of > > > > > > > > the problem like certifcate expired, not linked to a trusted CA,... > > > > > > > > > > > > temperror: the message was sent encrypted and the server was not able > > > > > > > > to verify the client certificate at this time. This may indicate for > > > > > > > > instance that the server could not fetch the CRL. > > > > > > > > > > > > permerror: the message was sent encrypted and the client certificate > > > > > > > > was not verified by the MTA server. > > > > > > I think that reusing these terms will lead to confusion. At the very > > > least, > > > one will have to have a lookup cheat sheet to interpret them. > > > > > > To me there are two almost orthogonal aspects to this: > > > 1) was the message sent in the clear or via TLS > > > 2) if TLS, how "good" is the client cert > > > > > > Mixing the two concepts together makes it hard to figure out what is > > > happening. If one was to further add in alignment requirements for cert > > > and > > > content (as has been discussed in some other arenas), the mess will only > > > get worse. > > > > You note that I tried to put in "pass" only a result which is TLS and > > "verified" via CA or DANE. A self signed certificate, should not give a > > "pass". From there you can trust enough the Subject provided by the client > > Certificate to do some forms of alignments. > > I'm fine with not giving a self-signed certificate a pass. I think that > makes > sense. Equally, I'm not fine with calling it a failure either. My > suggestion > is unverified. I'm happy to add support for this draft to the authres python > module that I co-maintain once we get a few things sorted out: > > https://launchpad.net/authentication-results-python cool > > How about this: > > Expand/replace "fail" to "unverified" and "expired" (I can't think of another > case). If I've concluded I don't care about verification, I think I also > don't > care about expiration, but if I do care about verification, then I think > having > "expired" is a useful error condition. It could be used to trigger an out of > band complaint to the sender that they need to get their key updated. > I'm fine with new name, I'm keeping the old one, till a new naming converge ;) > Add a new property for ptype "cert" called "verification" with values "ca", > "dane", "policy", and "none" (policy would be if a receiver has, based on > pre- > arrangement, decided to treat a specific cert as valid from a receiver). > ok > I think those changes would resolve the issues we've discussed here. > Additionally, I was reviewing what information is available via the Postfix > policy service (see http://www.postfix.org/SMTPD_POLICY_README.html ) to get > an > idea how much information would be available to an external application to > support injecting this header field. That led me to some additional > questions/suggestions: > > How are low/medium/high strength defined? I looked in RFC 3207, which is the > given reference, and didn't see it. As you will notice, Postfix returns the > number of bits in the key, not low/medium/high. I would imagine that today's > high is tomorrow's medium, so I think using a numeric value for key size > would > be better than low/medium/high. In combination with the algorithm, key size > should be sufficient to make a determination if security for the connection > was > adequate or not (in combination with protocol [see below]). Certainly I > think > it would be better than a generic and undefined low/medium/high. Well, the strength is mainly coming from openssl classification of ciphers https://www.openssl.org/docs/apps/ciphers.html Note that postfix pass the openssl name of the cipher, not the RFC approved name, this is why they pass the number of bits too. for instance: SSL_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA becomes RC4-SHA (128 bits) So you will have to maintain a table of correspondence, and while you are at it, you can add a strength. I'm not to bent over it, it is just I think it is better that the MTA calls the level of encryption than the MUA to have to figure it out. > > I also noticed (now) that protocol version is not included. While today I > doubt many care about SSLv3/TLSvWhatever, I suspect that eventually they will > (if it was SSLv2, you ought to care). I'd propose adding a ptype for > protocol > with a property of "version" and values of "SSLv2", "SSLv3", "TLSv1", > "TLSv1.1", and "TLSv1.2". I'm not fully sure it is needed, because from the openssl cipher list it seems to imply ciphers are associated with a specific version, and the RFC naming at least makes a difference between SSL and TLS just by the name. > > I would also suggest adding a "fingerprint" property for the "key" ptype. I > can envision knowing exactly which key was used being useful. fine > > Based on those changes, the example in the current draft might end up looking > like: > > tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) > tls.verification="ca" > tls.client="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" > tls.key.cipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA > tls.protocol="TLSv1" > tls.fingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" > tls.strength=1024; > > Finally, trying to modify the example caused me to notice that, unlike all > the > 5451/7001 examples you don't include the ptype in your example. I think it's > mandatory and to the extent the ABNF may allow for ptype to be omitted when > property is present, I think it's a bug in the ABNF (I'm curious for msk's > opinoin on that). Based on that, I think it should be: > > tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) > tls.cert.verification="ca" > tls.cert.client="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" > tls.key.cipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA > tls.protocol.version="TLSv1" > tls.key.fingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" > tls.key.strength=1024; > > What do you think? looks good, I think no one put the method in front, so let's wait for Murray's advice, but personnaly I would stick to what people have been doing so far. so from your example, this seems more in line with current usage: tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) cert.verification="ca" cert.client="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" key.cipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA protocol.version="TLSv1" key.fingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" key.strength=1024; Note, I have been made aware there is a problem because ptype can only be smtp/header/body/policy as per 7001. I will dutifully ignore this important fact for the moment unless we can wrap all of this inside a policy ptype ;) tls=pass (verified, expires 20140505) policy.certverification="ca" policy.certclient="/C=US/ST=CA/L=ToonTown/O=ACME/CN=smtp.example.com" policy.keycipher=TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA policy.protocol="TLSv1" policy.keyfingerprint="68:B3:29:DA:98:93:E3:40:99:C7:D8:AD:5C:B9:C9:40" policy.keystrength=1024; From nobody Thu Mar 6 05:54:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143871A0217 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:54:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pYZpw3dGjy1f for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483731A017E for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.164.112] ([31.133.164.112]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lmqxo-1WpMjv1qO4-00h9Yw for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:54:43 +0100 Message-ID: <53187E20.9090508@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:54:40 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:d7oSRJvRRu4xTzcnmw2KERXk0OnY5wM/WgvtY2zsGj8E749m037 i7f/FXKBsY3LXI62tZnKTQnkwkmaRwBExiaep0xwlZF0elmExEZDSv+JQn6TRdk1fqvJLbu bk57dc94UWznh/fp561iPQMQRjpczxOeu34itN8Ej/ojF/mFBe8IUYbrtCKAO2094yVguW1 tmdMXzROqeN1Yj6zI+wLw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/rKkNVAfBZZ6YvPSi3QvjB5IwpEI Subject: [apps-discuss] RFC 2616 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 13:54:50 -0000 Hi APPS friends, note that the old HTTP/1.1 spec has been obsoleted a few weeks ago, and that the replacement specs are in the RFC Editor queue. So if you still have documents referencing RFC 2616, now is the same to update them accordingly. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Mar 6 06:05:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035CE1A02F1 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:05:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eAL5m5NUCBHb for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x230.google.com (mail-vc0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154091A02EB for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id lc6so2106676vcb.7 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:05:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=4KDNqomz1Umw/KftHb23AFhE+W24goQppY2JRxFlgGM=; b=rtQRO+NQ683uj1//iiBMCqeKu5G3zz/pBmV3jZCdm/NGAHeB1Ig4oFpjdxn7ZXsfto 4SFZ8SgarCF01Iho4f7poZVrUHY4wdwXODC/QItonyX0Qe1/VML0esRKj1h4Rjx/SA/4 bO1zSjo1K7hCNn4jNeWbbmDMd4wqDa7gND6nhK6TaSm/2ROqkx89f+O4QWT2TTD78qa2 7W3pfhn2UMs7c/yMUGwqmjpFXm8XdUeLbQOfPNC+xViI275h6BRlUEOo61xA3iDJIuVX NvU23iYFa5tTIhEk3+iVXYc/O+XgnjLAwcw+IFQ65N1TR/iBho+/1ORKKCI31hfdmD7S m9Gg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.113.1 with SMTP id iu1mr1050021vdb.35.1394114720997; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:05:20 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.19.104 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:05:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53187E20.9090508@gmx.de> References: <53187E20.9090508@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:05:20 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Yn5YSJDixkYXVPJkMb8R9rVtr_Q Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zFlKln62pP1hdTqf2361rZ_erqw Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC 2616 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:05:26 -0000 > note that the old HTTP/1.1 spec has been obsoleted a few weeks ago, and that > the replacement specs are in the RFC Editor queue. > > So if you still have documents referencing RFC 2616, now is the same to > update them accordingly. Now is the time, that is. The complication here is that 2616 was a single reference for everything. The httpbis set is 6 documents, and you have to figure out which one(s) to reference. This is a reason I really wish we'd done a "part 0". If you're just saying "we use HTTP", then citing part 1 is the right answer. But for more complicated references, you might have to cite different parts, and perhaps multiple parts. Barry From nobody Thu Mar 6 06:51:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C8C1A0002; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:51:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8glbXcpPbDpu; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.163]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6961E1A0070; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.205]) by relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WLZdn-00086V-e5; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:51:19 +0000 Received: from gklyne.plus.com ([80.229.154.156] helo=conina.local) by smtp0.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WLZdn-0005bJ-0S; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: <53188B3A.9070000@ninebynine.org> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:50:34 +0000 From: Graham Klyne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Newton References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Oxford-Username: zool0635 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_P6eRee54WY3WiH45HV0E9TnDcE Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:51:36 -0000 I chimed in earlier on this discussion, and listened in on the WG meeting discussions this week. TL;DR: I'm thinking that the use of URI templates in the registry (bootstrap) is the worst kind of compromise, and I think this might be a case where the current non-templated solution is appropriate (but should be explained why it is). ... In my view, there are two distinct but related reasons to favour using templates: 1. the "get-off-my-lawn" argument, in that it allows services total control over the allocation and use of their URI space, and reduces the constraints on how the service may be deployed. 2. Long term flexibility, ala REST style (cf. Roy Fielding's "software design on a scale of decades" - http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven#comment-724). I mention this because there was an explicit mention in the WG meeting of a desire for flexibility/extensibility. I see using service-provided URI templates is *a* way to achieve this: coupling between the server and client is dramatically reduced, and as long as clients follow the appropriate procedures, the service can change and rearrange its URI space (effectively, its API) to meet evolving needs. But this comes at a cost. As Roy notes "Many of the [REST] constraints are directly opposed to short-term efficiency" (ibid.). The cost here is the extra round trip. I see that as the cost of long term flexibility, but I can't judge if that cost is too high (taking into account appropriate use of web cacheing, etc.) The other cost is client complexity. In my experience, the development overhead (complexity) of using URI Templates is non-zero, but is not great, given the range of libraries available. YMMV. The current WEIRDS document says: "The goal of this document is to tie together usage patterns of HTTP into a common profile applicable to the various types of Directory Services serving Registration Data using RESTful practices." If you are serious about following RESTful practices, then I think the cost of the extra round trip must be accepted. Otherwise, I'd urge deleting the qualification "using RESTful practices" (again, see the blog post and comments cited above). ... Thus, the main problem I see is the extra round trip that may be needed to fully realize the benefit of using templates. I can't judge if this is acceptable, but I note that the protocol design already anticipates additional round trips in the form of HTTP redirects. The problem I see with putting URI templates in the bootstrap (which some comments in the meeting noted could lead to their being hard-coded in client applications) is that we are not significantly better off than the current prefix-based solution, but with the added complexity of having to deal with (or circumvent) the use of URI templates. It also introduces the spectre of NxM entries in the bootstrap registry as John has noted. Further, how would it work with redirects to a different server that might use a different URI sub-structure? If the primary concern is the "get-off-my-lawn" argument, then I think the prefix solution is probably good enough, but if adopted I think it would be appropriate to include some commentary addressing the concerns of http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-get-off-my-lawn (specifically sections 1 and 2.3). A wider concern is that publication of this as a standard might be seen as a precedent to doing it in situations where the detrimental impact of constraints on URI patterns would be more severe. I think such commentary might include mention of the fact that the service is not for general deployment, but is expected to be fielded by specific organizations for quite specific purposes, and that the bootstrap prefix mechanism means that clients can be told to use a different part of the service's URI space if operational circumstances change. Thus, the need to retain compatibility with properly implemented clients does not completely block changes to the service provision environment. ... HTH #g -- On 06/03/2014 07:58, Andrew Newton wrote: > My major objection to URI templates was the extra retrieval of the > template, but that is solved with their inclusion in the bootstrap. > > However, looking at a real world extension to one of the existing RDAP > queries I am beginning to wonder if URI templates are more of a > liability. Currently /domain/example.com returns the relevant domain > registration, info about DNSSEC, nameservers, contacts, etc... For > /domain/136.192.in-addr.arpa there may sometimes be a need to add in > related network registration information (actually, RIPE and ARIN do > this today with their custom REST interfaces). To signal this a client > could optionally add the query parameter ?needNets=true. > > If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the > RIRs modify their templates to > http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of > the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". > Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. > > Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe John is > absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much. > > -andy > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM, John Levine wrote: >>> Looking at the above "key-value table that supports longest-match >>> lookups resulting in URI templates that are then used to construct a >>> query that will either return an answer or a redirection", this to me >>> smells like over-engineering even just when reading it (not to speak of >>> having to implement it). >>> >>> Of course, if the WEIRDS WG is happy with that, ... >> >> Not particularly, but our preferred solution, a fixed URL suffix >> syntax that we append to a per-thing (domain, IP range, etc.) prefix >> is apparently forbidden to us. >> >> The redirects have been there all along to provide a less broken >> version of what thin WHOIS does now. >> >> R's, >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> apps-discuss mailing list >> apps-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > From nobody Thu Mar 6 06:58:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193241A0100 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:58:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8LyoAASLWTHV for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f41.google.com (mail-pb0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A001A00F8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id jt11so2732701pbb.0 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:57:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jC3H10mTH+iPN97yaAaKfihr8RTH7C/hFjI3qVftuc4=; b=PYxtqtFgCrjdzN6oBSc3PJCTpoJzGOSRpQL1zpfEulr6QH6S9gWvI2QSRAWui2iPkz k+gEWcCmI6IabSzn8o39kYwZke5w+OMkIrBff1HSFYniGVH+bHmFGMDAYsuBiznlPUxB 9RNwUIbH0uUp/4vbUzQ9g7miT6c+l1fIAmboM90IBGYlz+FIkTqUTzUiioTWF9x2vpbB di6ohvS67s6WP4Ck7jlhJPxRx3QJLzOXUQvvpgZxPQXBtRYK0ZLin9rbENHvqGlNOEau csGzzAsGb5VtG7OSf82GOtqAz6UAdCSmTNXkA42opE3QDyw2Va9Vw9N7MX8anfuFKl+6 v7hw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn7eUTD4iLklpfDmsHEOa90k94v6pw3R9l4RyOO75JABhIdC7pTnQJzEuLcxB4EibVKj43s MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.34.197 with SMTP id b5mr769628pbj.16.1394117877505; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.143.4 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:57:57 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2001:67c:1232:152:c518:ef56:9da0:3c21] In-Reply-To: <5318547A.80805@att.com> References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <5318547A.80805@att.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:57:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andrew Newton To: Tony Hansen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/vd3lyl18lb_wqLjBkDmXw0-Txgo Cc: "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:58:03 -0000 Thanks Tony, I think that answers my question. -andy On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Tony Hansen wrote: > On 3/6/14, 2:58 AM, Andrew Newton wrote: >> >> My major objection to URI templates was the extra retrieval of the >> template, but that is solved with their inclusion in the bootstrap. >> >> However, looking at a real world extension to one of the existing RDAP >> queries I am beginning to wonder if URI templates are more of a >> liability. Currently /domain/example.com returns the relevant domain >> registration, info about DNSSEC, nameservers, contacts, etc... For >> /domain/136.192.in-addr.arpa there may sometimes be a need to add in >> related network registration information (actually, RIPE and ARIN do >> this today with their custom REST interfaces). To signal this a client >> could optionally add the query parameter ?needNets=true. >> >> If the first URI template is http://service/domain/{domain} and the >> RIRs modify their templates to >> http://service/domain/{domain}?needNets={needNets}, clients unaware of >> the extension will not know to substitute anything for "needNets". >> Simple substitution, as proposed at the meeting, does not work here. > > > I disagree. The rule for such options should be that > > *) any parameters that are unknown SHOULD be removed, as in "?needNets=" > from the previous example > *) the server MUST handle extension parameters that are empty > *) the server MUST treat extension parameters with an unexpanded value such > as "{needNets}" as if it were empty > > In other words, if the server receives "?needNets={needNets}" OR > "?needNets=" it needs to do the right thing. > > And the "simple" sed script mentioned in the room that does expansion just > needs an additional -e 's/{[^}]*}//g'. > > Tony Hansen > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Thu Mar 6 07:22:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8C61A0083 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cfX9woqg8-iG for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [IPv6:2607:f0d0:3001:aa::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1811A0026 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD4ED04406; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:22:16 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1394119337; bh=cCHcHCha/l8tojeItVHn/GeW1KO6lZ1zm4JB8oXByPQ=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=pptw/OVsGdSHHRzfJiTweOKjH5dFb/xlFdyD5BkYuOygw4l8FA1+ACht0BGs1lwaB tWa+LMa9jAXoDY0C1Tg/EqJ4SK4Ra08B4KbebePulpoBg+MGH/No/vYWgr4Nwzk0LX E9ZZqncavZoWhcgYBp2LeAD0SfY/WhiDoay94u5A= Received: from [IPV6:2600:1003:b004:7f4c:d865:acce:7052:385b] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1003:b004:7f4c:d865:acce:7052:385b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70F65D040D0; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:22:16 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Scott Kitterman Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:22:06 -0500 To: Apps Discuss Message-ID: X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/91B1eL6fpVVKZczbjYP3tGPKH0U Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:22:23 -0000 On March 6, 2014 5:06:11 AM EST, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote: >Given Franck's draft and the SMTP-specific work going on in DANE, it >looks >like we're going to want the ability to report things via >Authentication-Results (RFC7001) beyond what it's currently capable of >reporting. Specifically, there's one token in the ABNF that is >constrained >to report things about the envelope, headers, body, or local policy >issues >only; it can't easily report things about keys, certificates, DANE >results, >etc. DANE is doing work specifically on SMTP now. > >It looks like the simplest path forward is a small ABNF change with a >matching IANA action to create a small registry of legal values. Since >this WG processed RFC7001, it seems appropriate to handle this change >as >well. Unfortunately, this won't be backward-compatible with RFC7001, >so >we're looking at a "v=2" kind of deal. > >Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to provide >comments and reviews on such a work item? Since TLS is about the channel, not the message we can shove this under policy and call it good (as Franck suggests). I think it's better to avoid the version bump if we can. Scott K From nobody Thu Mar 6 07:36:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4E21A0064; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:36:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6gbrD3HkJ0H; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1BE1A00DD; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fp1so2698218pdb.28 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=17MxNZQ0sjfaCRo5WaBSnwZMUssFDoqwprAaGXN6mn0=; b=BkHjX21+zX2fUIiTD8VqF+tVBU8mxy+8gSavNYHtJdKPISKY8SBWn6wSjjrRRZs3gm Jgf8qwA9cNOICsCzZHxcTGNQz7uBtVDZv7J3mmE70ONJhLmm84VUrTG6p0Ppao4U4CD7 7FM9HEULcseFAnrxdiU+ERrv8712r0nvtrHU6We0x+hllBxf1dbfGJ4yrpiACtLuRoMF ad7pmsQV+t6FWWpYKkLpAuoIixf4apwzDCUMOLXjj/QKwFGn2bOGuQc/xOCCrJmfhfG9 uCMbIxbmgdODvDF/h7BOwUjXBjl7Om1jJ3AYmR1rmQlqPmG708pG57c30IpP5wfMk+/a FLjg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.118.71 with SMTP id kk7mr15328711pab.14.1394120164274; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53188B3A.9070000@ninebynine.org> References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <53188B3A.9070000@ninebynine.org> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:36:04 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Graham Klyne Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffbad052a757104f3f1e521 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/o9KVa_rHalYStn7VAXRYxWDrJ-s Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:36:16 -0000 --e89a8ffbad052a757104f3f1e521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Graham Klyne wrote: > Thus, the main problem I see is the extra round trip that may be needed to > fully realize the benefit of using templates. I can't judge if this is > acceptable, but I note that the protocol design already anticipates > additional round trips in the form of HTTP redirects. > One of the original concerns we had with using URI templates was the two round trips: one to get the template, one to execute the template. If the template is stored in the bootstrap table, one of those round trips is replaced by a local filesystem operation, and we're left with just the query, which we have to make under any model. > The problem I see with putting URI templates in the bootstrap (which some > comments in the meeting noted could lead to their being hard-coded in > client applications) is that we are not significantly better off than the > current prefix-based solution, but with the added complexity of having to > deal with (or circumvent) the use of URI templates. It also introduces the > spectre of NxM entries in the bootstrap registry as John has noted. > Further, how would it work with redirects to a different server that might > use a different URI sub-structure? > I don't believe either of those are particularly ugly impositions, unless one considers anything with non-zero cost to be ugly. If the registry has NxM entries and is expressed in (say) JSON, the JSON parser will still make extraction of the desired values easy. Nobody has argued (yet) that doing the bootstrap table in JSON is a problem, so I'm assuming for the sake of argument that that's given. If we use templates instead of prefixes, then there needs to be a function of some kind to make the substitutions, and it's a question of whether that's something like "sed" or something that implements full template expansion. Having tried both under the REPUTE work, my experience suggests that they are actually of almost equal complexity. Also, the following two things are, to me, logically equivalent: 1) Take URI prefix "X", append "/domain/", then append the domain name you're interested in. Query the result. 2) Take URI template "X/domain/{domain}", and replace "{domain}" with the domain name you're interested in. Query the result. If you buy that argument, then we're really arguing about whether a string append operation is substantially more complex than a substring replace operation. There are ample implementations of both, so I don't believe that's an issue. Since people like to use the shell script as the baseline, this amounts to a call to "sed" (available, and free), or a call to a different tool (available, and free) that can expand templates. Also in either approach, we need to enumerate all the supported substitutions for a given query type and what values should be used in those substitutions. There's no added documentation burden there. If the primary concern is the "get-off-my-lawn" argument, then I think the > prefix solution is probably good enough, but if adopted I think it would be > appropriate to include some commentary addressing the concerns of > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-get-off-my-lawn(specifically sections 1 and 2.3). A wider concern is that publication of > this as a standard might be seen as a precedent to doing it in situations > where the detrimental impact of constraints on URI patterns would be more > severe. > > I think such commentary might include mention of the fact that the service > is not for general deployment, but is expected to be fielded by specific > organizations for quite specific purposes, and that the bootstrap prefix > mechanism means that clients can be told to use a different part of the > service's URI space if operational circumstances change. Thus, the need to > retain compatibility with properly implemented clients does not completely > block changes to the service provision environment. > Yes, this was the sentiment at the end of the design team meeting; using prefixes in the registry instead of templates would probably skate by the get-off-my-lawn-draft, and the burden would be on us to explain why that's so. -MSK --e89a8ffbad052a757104f3f1e521 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Graham Klyne <GK@ninebyni= ne.org> wrote:
Thus, the main probl= em I see is the extra round trip that may be needed to fully realize the be= nefit of using templates. =A0I can't judge if this is acceptable, but I= note that the protocol design already anticipates additional round trips i= n the form of HTTP redirects.

One of the original concerns we had = with using URI templates was the two round trips: one to get the template, = one to execute the template.=A0 If the template is stored in the bootstrap = table, one of those round trips is replaced by a local filesystem operation= , and we're left with just the query, which we have to make under any m= odel.
=A0
<= div> The problem I see with putting URI templates in the bootstrap (which some c= omments in the meeting noted could lead to their being hard-coded in client= applications) is that we are not significantly better off than the current= prefix-based solution, but with the added complexity of having to deal wit= h (or circumvent) the use of URI templates. =A0It also introduces the spect= re of NxM entries in the bootstrap registry as John has noted. =A0Further, = how would it work with redirects to a different server that might use a dif= ferent URI sub-structure?

I don't believe either of those = are particularly ugly impositions, unless one considers anything with non-z= ero cost to be ugly.=A0 If the registry has NxM entries and is expressed in= (say) JSON, the JSON parser will still make extraction of the desired valu= es easy.=A0 Nobody has argued (yet) that doing the bootstrap table in JSON = is a problem, so I'm assuming for the sake of argument that that's = given.

If we use templates instead of prefixes, then there needs to be a funct= ion of some kind to make the substitutions, and it's a question of whet= her that's something like "sed" or something that implements = full template expansion.=A0 Having tried both under the REPUTE work, my exp= erience suggests that they are actually of almost equal complexity.

Also, the following two things are, to me, logically equival= ent:

1) Take URI prefix "X", append "/doma= in/", then append the domain name you're interested in.=A0 Query t= he result.

2) Take URI template "X/domain/{domain}", and repl= ace "{domain}" with the domain name you're interested in.=A0 = Query the result.

If you buy that argument, th= en we're really arguing about whether a string append operation is subs= tantially more complex than a substring replace operation.=A0 There are amp= le implementations of both, so I don't believe that's an issue.=A0 = Since people like to use the shell script as the baseline, this amounts to = a call to "sed" (available, and free), or a call to a different t= ool (available, and free) that can expand templates.

Also in either approach, we need to enumerate all the suppor= ted substitutions for a given query type and what values should be used in = those substitutions.=A0 There's no added documentation burden there.

If the primary concern is the "get-off-my-lawn" argument, then I = think the prefix solution is probably good enough, but if adopted I think i= t would be appropriate to include some commentary addressing the concerns o= f http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-ge= t-off-my-lawn (specifically sections 1 and 2.3). =A0A wider concern is = that publication of this as a standard might be seen as a precedent to doin= g it in situations where the detrimental impact of constraints on URI patte= rns would be more severe.

I think such commentary might include mention of the fact that the service = is not for general deployment, but is expected to be fielded by specific or= ganizations for quite specific purposes, and that the bootstrap prefix mech= anism means that clients can be told to use a different part of the service= 's URI space if operational circumstances change. =A0Thus, the need to = retain compatibility with properly implemented clients does not completely = block changes to the service provision environment.

Yes, this was the s= entiment at the end of the design team meeting; using prefixes in the regis= try instead of templates would probably skate by the get-off-my-lawn-draft,= and the burden would be on us to explain why that's so.

-MSK
--e89a8ffbad052a757104f3f1e521-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:04:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA7F1A0189; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:25:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K8qYvriaNhDR; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod6og105.obsmtp.com (exprod6og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.189]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8635D1A0178; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from peregrine.verisign.com ([216.168.239.74]) (using TLSv1) by exprod6ob105.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUxg+262MGg2+N/nXV8mlDSRemngNt6Yn@postini.com; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:24:59 PST Received: from brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com [10.173.152.206]) by peregrine.verisign.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id s269OgmS030712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:24:42 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:24:42 -0500 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: Andrew Newton , John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report Thread-Index: AQHPORHpkhr1irWdvUu7RzdktlhnD5rTyUHg Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:24:41 +0000 Message-ID: <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ED6rWOGTCDWPrcRmU7f6bOM4NWM X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:04:35 -0800 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:25:05 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: weirds [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew > Newton > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 2:59 AM > To: John Levine; weirds@ietf.org > Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report [SAH] > Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe John is > absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much. Are you suggesting a move back to what we had in the document prior to the = change to .well-known, and no template(s)? Scott From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:04:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7894C1A0230; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:31:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teFG91iO0n0P; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx01.ausregistry.net.au (mx01.ausregistry.net.au [120.29.249.162]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B251A0229; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO ausregistry.com.au) ([10.30.220.61]) by iron01.off08.stkildard.vic.ausregistry.com.au with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2014 21:29:20 +1100 Received: from MELEX01.ausregistrygroup.local ([10.11.220.61]) by OFFEX01.ausregistrygroup.local ([169.254.2.91]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:31:04 +1100 From: James Mitchell To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , Andrew Newton , John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report Thread-Index: AQHPORHte1IJoASib0+GjIruIS1/eJrTEUOAgADK6QA= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:31:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> In-Reply-To: <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.30.255.223] x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: scan successful x-kse-antivirus-info: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/BtrdrE2BDAiZo5ZFs5KPEHJ1eKg X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:04:57 -0800 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:31:07 -0000 What if the registry contains a base URL for the composition of RDAP paths? e.g. { =B3com=B2 : =B3rdap.verisign.com=B2, =B3au=B2 : =B3rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT=B2 } A client would append =B3/domain/<>=B2, e.g. rdap.verisign.com/domain/example.com and rdap.ausregistry.net.au/CONTEXT/ROOT/domain/example.com.au. Allows servers to place a registry-selector in the path name while keeping the whole thing pretty simple. Thanks, James On 6/03/2014 9:24 am, "Hollenbeck, Scott" wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: weirds [mailto:weirds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew >> Newton >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 2:59 AM >> To: John Levine; weirds@ietf.org >> Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report > >[SAH] > >> Should we move beyond the simple URI templates form, I believe John is >> absolutely right about the complexity. It will be too much. > >Are you suggesting a move back to what we had in the document prior to >the change to .well-known, and no template(s)? > >Scott > >_______________________________________________ >weirds mailing list >weirds@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/weirds From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:05:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC2E1A0279; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.504 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLu2DjX0cQ-l; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx01.ausregistry.net.au (mx01.ausregistry.net.au [120.29.249.162]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BF31A0275; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO ausregistry.com.au) ([10.30.220.61]) by iron01.off08.stkildard.vic.ausregistry.com.au with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2014 21:56:42 +1100 Received: from MELEX01.ausregistrygroup.local ([10.11.220.61]) by OFFEX01.ausregistrygroup.local ([169.254.2.91]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:58:26 +1100 From: James Mitchell To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Thread-Topic: [weirds] [apps-discuss] WEIRDS WG report Thread-Index: AQHPORHte1IJoASib0+GjIruIS1/eJrTEUOAgADK6QD//0kSAIAAvpOA Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:58:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5316B4AC.4000701@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20140305150713.4611.qmail@joyce.lan> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F4936C7EA@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.30.255.223] x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: scan successful x-kse-antivirus-info: Clean Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CF3E01F82608Ejamesmitchellausregistrycomau_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2qNmwtRZkvxlf5wJjnLvlloqB80 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:04:57 -0800 Cc: John Levine , "weirds@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [weirds] WEIRDS WG report X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:58:35 -0000 --_000_CF3E01F82608Ejamesmitchellausregistrycomau_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIC9DT05URVhUL1JPT1QgaXMgdG8gYmUgcHJvdmlkZWQgYnkgd2hvbWV2ZXIgaXMgcmVxdWVz dGluZyB0aGUgZW50cnkgaW50byB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgdGh1cyBoYXJkLWNvZGVkIGludG8gdGhl IHJlZ2lzdHJ5LiBUbyB1c2UgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGNsaWVudHMgb25seSBuZWVkIHRoZSBhYmls aXR5IHRvIGFwcGVuZCB0aGUgV0VSSURTIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gZGVmaW5lZCBwYXRoIChhbmQg cXVlcnkgc3RyaW5ncyB3aGVuIHJlbGV2YW50KSB0byB0aGUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdmFsdWUuDQoNClBl cmhhcHMgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiAvQ09OVEVYVC9ST09UIHdhcyBtaXNsZWFkaW5nPw0KDQpGcm9tOiAi TXVycmF5IFMuIEt1Y2hlcmF3eSIgPHN1cGVydXNlckBnbWFpbC5jb208bWFpbHRvOnN1cGVydXNl 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--_000_CF3E01F82608Ejamesmitchellausregistrycomau_-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 10:28:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086ED1A0231; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:27:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggVAnku_1Kt3; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out1.uio.no (mail-out1.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCA61A0171; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mx4.uio.no ([129.240.10.45]) by mail-out1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1WLd1J-0004N3-3f; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:27:49 +0100 Received: from dhcp-9ddd.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.157.221]) by mail-mx4.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WLd1I-0007J4-G3; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:27:49 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 18:27:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <04E4D159-9E38-4AE7-87ED-044CA52341B4@ifi.uio.no> References: To: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 3 msgs/h 2 sum rcpts/h 9 sum msgs/h 5 total rcpts 13405 max rcpts/h 44 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: DFF68A403209B9490CD3E7B958FA13F300553726 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 31.133.157.221 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 2 total 28 max/h 7 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/K6dgk1gwIjmxsBkzCs83bkrVvwI Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] TAPS BOF: clarifications and pointer to mailing list X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:27:58 -0000 Hi, Just an update - the list for discussion TAPS related matters has just = moved to taps@ietf.org To subscribe, visit: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/taps Cheers, Michael On 5. mars 2014, at 16:29, Michael Welzl wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > I thought it would be helpful to give a little clarification about the = TAPS BOF, for those of you who were there. >=20 > I was under the impression that what we're really planning to do = didn't quite get across: an API? where? a middleware? So... >=20 > Defining and prescribing *one* API in *one* place of the stack is = *not* the major goal of TAPS. The goal is to identify the services that = are provided by IETF-defined transport protocols, look at services that = applications really want from the network, and see how we can map the = two onto each other. This is more abstract than an API in that it is not = associated with one particular layer - it is helpful as implementation = guidance for people doing APIs or middlewares. We have written a draft = charter that tries to reflect that quite some time ago already: > = https://sites.google.com/site/transportprotocolservices/home/charter-propo= sal-before-bof >=20 > If you look at the deliverables, you'll see the actual scope that we = are thinking of. We would describe an example API, and we would specify = how the services *can* be provided, but these two things are both meant = as examples. >=20 > The intention of the agenda was: > - to give an overview of why this is needed (Jon's presentation) > - to give an example of how a richer set of services than just TCP and = UDP can benefit an already widely deployed middleware, as an easy = deployment path (don't change applications, just the middleware) = (Martin's presentation) > - to give an *example* of how this could be implemented (Gorry's = presentation) > - to explain how this relates to MIF (Margaret's presentation) >=20 > I am sorry if this wasn't clear enough; now I see that I should have = perhaps given this background initially, but one always knows better in = retrospect... >=20 > Please note that there is a website associated with this: > https://sites.google.com/site/transportprotocolservices/ > with e.g. drafts, such as draft-hurtig-tsvwg-transport-apis-00 (this = one should clarify some things, hopefully), and also an FAQ page, with = answers to questions such as "Shouldn't this be an IRTF activity?". If = you have such questions, the best thing to do would be to check this = page, and if you disagree with what you see there, please join our list = and tell us. >=20 > =3D> Well, please join us anyway if you're interested. The list = subscription page is: > https://sympa.uio.no/ifi.uio.no/info/transport-services >=20 > I thank everyone who attended for a lively and interesting discussion, = and I hope we can find a commonly agreed upon way to take this work = ahead. >=20 > Cheers, > Michael Welzl >=20 From nobody Thu Mar 6 11:07:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364ED1A0198 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:07:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mu-nDQG_GZdc for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.01.com (smtp.01.com [199.36.142.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446A51A0088 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7123F60B7 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:07:00 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Byalnf_xjpZn for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:07:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.01.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4F29451F for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:07:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000142943DD for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:06:59 -0600 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp-out-1.01.com Received: from smtp.01.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp-out-1.01.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xnngKug-rQSB for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:06:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail-2.01.com (mail.01.com [172.18.30.178]) by smtp-out-1.01.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DEC3F60B7 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:06:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:06:59 -0600 (CST) From: Franck Martin To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-ID: <1514223918.132896.1394132819519.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> In-Reply-To: <454327519.132843.1394132742280.JavaMail.zimbra@peachymango.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [69.28.149.129] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.5_GA_5839 (ZimbraWebClient - FF27 (Mac)/8.0.5_GA_5839) Thread-Topic: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01.txt Thread-Index: iQ0rS+pL7ot9gn0kJTj/EeLjz5untA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/SRb3UxsxAwlT5VZdMZ-B0j2CxDE Subject: [apps-discuss] draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:07:07 -0000 Trying to get the language to converge a bit, taking the various submissions. There is still some work. A new version of I-D, draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Franck Martin and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-martin-authentication-results-tls Revision: 01 Title: Authentication-Results Registration for TLS Document date: 2014-03-06 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-martin-authentication-results-tls-01 Abstract: This memo updates the registry of properties in Authentication- Results: message header fields to allow relaying of the results of an email sent using STARTTLS [RFC3207] or not. From nobody Thu Mar 6 17:48:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8291A01BE for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:48:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HtflNzBAPkc0 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from snt0-omc4-s6.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc4-s6.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D011F1A0054 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from SNT146-W80 ([65.55.90.199]) by snt0-omc4-s6.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:48:34 -0800 X-TMN: [M0w5HoKSyetW4p+FmWL46KpPDc1rS3EW] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_1867bb01-ddd7-4d0f-8188-fd73ea93f4fb_" From: Brian Aberle To: Hector Santos , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "superuser@gmail.com" , "dave@cridland.net" Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 18:48:34 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <53160A5B.8080806@isdg.net> References: , , , , , , ,<53160A5B.8080806@isdg.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2014 01:48:34.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[59E930D0:01CF39A7] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/qnDpq6IjyGONvI1r41vYPoyYmas Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 01:48:43 -0000 --_1867bb01-ddd7-4d0f-8188-fd73ea93f4fb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topic: Is this Concept/Design/Implementation a protocol? This IS a wire protocol=2C I was mistaken. It can be a wire protocol. The= very fast XML updates depend on the attribute tag name=2C "oid" - an exten= sion to XML required for "XMLObject Parsing" if we call it that. I created= a simple example program that clearly shows the need for this. =20 I hope you can 'see' the answer yourself - as I made a makefile for Linux= =2C VC6 and VS2012 that show the results in numbers. The new example progr= am is called "TheOIDProtocol". Find it here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip Answer: Yes=2C it can be considered a protocol if you add some small constr= aints to "Standard XML". These additions=2C ALTHOUGH THEY ARE OPTIONAL=2C do define a proto= col. =20 This specialized "XML Object Parser" knows a special key word it is "oid" = It was designed to be brief=2C "oid" Stands for Object ID. If the first attribute is "oid"=2C (POSITIONAL and CASE SENSITIVE) exists= =2C the parser acts different. Putting "oid" as the 3rd attribute has no effect=2C this violates some thou= ght on positional significance=20 of attribute order because this special optimization demands that "oid" be= #1 in position as the attribute. This is the protocol. Yep. Cant get around that. The protocol also make = provision for UpdateTime This is why: Without this protocol - XML updates are SLOW. This is how the= world works with no "oid": The tokenizer is getting fragments of data that it cannot possibly identify= as an object until a "Temporary Object" is built to contain all of the data. Now this "DOM like= " Temporary object might only be a =20 small subset of the actual object - for example a complex object may have = many member variables and=20 the xml used to update it contains only the information necessary to updat= e the object plus the changes. This is a delta rather than an overwrite. Since the key to the object inst= ance exists within the data it becomes 'necessary' to create the temporary object because we have no information t= o associate the actual object instance. In the world with and "oid" (that must appear in just the right place and = case) we do not need any temporary object to hold the data because the tokenizer peeks ahead one token to loo= k for this special "oid" if it exists=2C we obtain the one and only object instance (via a unique k= ey) and parse directly into it. =20 This is a major performance improvement utilizing much less memory and CPU= when "oid" is the first attribute. That is a protocol. Speed is the reason. =20 =20 Why was ETag added to HTTP in 1.1? =20 HTTP 1.0 didnt cache - I remember when ETag support was added to ServerCor= e.cpp for HTTP 1.1 Caching was a nice and needed feature in HTTP=2C no less than the "oid" in = XML. There is already an example which shows the performance improvement gained = by the "oid" The ExIndexObjects example times an "Update" vs and "Update Faster" and you= can see a difference however that example was not designed to be a case to emphasize exactly how= major the time=20 difference is. The larger the temporary object the more magnified the tim= e and memory in=20 dealing with it - The IndexObjects example uses very small objects and ver= y many of them -=20 with very small objects you can see it is a little faster - look how much f= aster larger complex object are when you run the simple little example I just published. =20 Brian =20 =20 =20 > Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0500 > From: hsantos@isdg.net > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B dave@cridland.net > CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing >=20 > I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to=20 > document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of=20 > "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of=20 > interest. >=20 > I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to=20 > include application level recommended design=2C implementation and=20 > deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard"=20 > and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of=20 > communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a=20 > "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=20 > increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data"=20 > methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. >=20 > --=20 > HLS >=20 > On 3/4/2014 9:28 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > Correct - this is not a wire protocol=2C it's a design approach and an = algorithm=2C initially created to add a native XML get() and set() to all C= ORBA objects. Of course this discussion does not belong at OMG because it = applies equally to COM/DCOM=2C and for that matter even MFC GUI objects are= simplified with this design approach (using no SAX and no DOM and no W3C r= ecognized approach) - see the XMLDialog example. > > > > Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:54:31 +0000 > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > From: dave@cridland.net > > To: superuser@gmail.com > > CC: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > > > Yes=3B unless there's a wire protocol involved=2C of course. But I get = the impression there isn't in this case. > > > > On 4 March 2014 11:37=2C Murray S. Kucherawy wrot= e: > > > > Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C= and not us? > > > > > > > > On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C Brian Aberle = wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi world=2C > > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in m= y whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Is= n't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside th= is is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this Internet stu= ff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another = colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is= real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too= busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. I put toget= her a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplyi= ng this direct link in my first posting: > > > > > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > > > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet= Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML= is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins= =2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproj= ect.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > > > > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is th= at necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I ask= ed the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective t= o get good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them= =2C so I turned up the color volume a bit. > > > > > > > > World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the num= bers in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a co= ck fight id put all my money on 777. > > > > > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > > > > > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > > > > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SA= X and DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numb= ers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other re= asons as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in t= he application layer. This issue in discussion here before the community i= s: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to= keep inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML Serializatio= n". > > > > > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must al= so note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object = Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just = don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need= this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identifi= ed quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/foru= ms/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 > > > > > > Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by = Brian Aberle > > > > > > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we = resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I= have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproje= ct.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedbac= k in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++= =3B The roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should no= t reflect on the polished and refined all encompassing open source implemen= tation. > > > > > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of= XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact ba= cked by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serializat= ion" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use th= e new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describ= e the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in = the above two public threads over the past decade. > > > > > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-in= venting the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each = of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would= roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the quest= ion. > > > > > > > > World=2C what do you think? > > >=20 >=20 >=20 = --_1867bb01-ddd7-4d0f-8188-fd73ea93f4fb_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Topic: Is this Concept/Design/Im= plementation a protocol?

This IS a wire protocol=2C I was mistaken.&= nbsp=3B It can be a wire =3Bprotocol. =3B The very fast XML updates= depend on the attribute tag name=2C "oid" - an extension to XML required f= or "XMLObject Parsing" if we call it that. =3B I created a simple examp= le program that clearly shows the need for this.
 =3B
I hope you = can 'see' the answer yourself - as =3BI made a makefile for =3BLinu= x=2C VC6 and VS2012 that show the results in numbers. =3B The new examp= le program is called "TheOIDProtocol". Find it here:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi= d=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfi= le%2c.zip

Answer: Yes=2C it can be considered a protocol if you = add some small constraints to "Standard XML".
 =3B =3B =3B&n= bsp=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B These additions=2C ALTHOUGH THEY ARE= OPTIONAL=2C do define a protocol. =3B =3B

This specialized = "XML Object Parser" =3Bknows a special key word it is "oid" =3B It = was designed to be brief=2C "oid" Stands for Object ID.
If the first att= ribute is "oid"=2C (POSITIONAL and CASE SENSITIVE) exists=2C the parser act= s different.
Putting "oid" as the 3rd attribute has no effect=2C this vi= olates some thought on positional significance =3B
of attribute ord= er because this special optimization demands that "oid" be #1 in position a= s the attribute.
This is the protocol. =3B Yep. =3B Cant get aro= und that. =3B The protocol also make provision for UpdateTime

Th= is is why: Without this protocol - XML updates are SLOW. =3B This is ho= w the world works with no "oid":
The tokenizer is getting fragments of d= ata that it cannot possibly identify as an object until a
"Temporary Obj= ect" is built to contain all of the data. =3B Now this "DOM like" Tempo= rary object might only be a =3B =3B
small subset of the actual = object - for example a complex object may have many member variables and&nb= sp=3B
the xml used to update it contains only the information necessary= to update the object plus the changes.
This is a delta rather than an o= verwrite. =3B Since the key to the object instance exists within the da= ta it becomes
'necessary' to create the temporary object because we have= no information to associate the actual object instance.

 =3BIn = the world with and "oid" (that must appear in just the right place and case= ) we do not need any temporary
 =3Bobject to hold the data because t= he tokenizer peeks ahead one token to look for this special "oid"
 = =3Bif it exists=2C we obtain the one and only object instance (via a unique= key) and parse directly into it. =3B =3B
This is a major perfo= rmance improvement utilizing much less memory and CPU =3Bwhen "oid"
=  =3Bis the first attribute. =3B That is a protocol. =3B Speed i= s the reason. =3B =3B

Why was ETag added to HTTP in 1.1?&nb= sp=3B =3B
HTTP 1.0 didnt cache - I remember when ETag support was a= dded to ServerCore.cpp for HTTP 1.1
Caching was a nice and needed featur= e in HTTP=2C no less than the "oid" in XML.

There is already an exam= ple which shows the performance improvement gained by the "oid"
The ExIn= dexObjects example times an "Update" vs and "Update Faster" and you can see= a difference
however that example was not designed to be a case to emph= asize exactly how major the time =3B
difference is. =3B The lar= ger the temporary object the more magnified the time and memory in =3B<= br> dealing with it - =3BThe IndexObjects =3Bexample uses very smal= l objects and very many of them -
with very small objects you can see&n= bsp=3Bit is a little =3Bfaster - look how much faster larger complex ob= ject are
when you run the simple little example I just published.
 =3B
Brian
 =3B
 =3B

 =3B
>=3B D= ate: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0500
>=3B From: hsantos@isdg.net
&= gt=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B dave@cridland.net
>=3B CC: apps-discuss= @ietf.org
>=3B Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing>=3B
>=3B I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new n= eed just to
>=3B document stuff in a structured simple manner with so= me level of
>=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly= for all sizes of
>=3B interest.
>=3B
>=3B I personally be= lieve the IETF should leverage this need and begin to
>=3B include ap= plication level recommended design=2C implementation and
>=3B deploym= ent methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard"
>=3B an= d these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
>=3B com= munications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a
>=3B "= client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The
>=3B = increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data"
= >=3B methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol.
= >=3B
>=3B --
>=3B HLS
>=3B
>=3B On 3/4/2014 9:28 A= M=2C Brian Aberle wrote:
>=3B >=3B Correct - this is not a wire prot= ocol=2C it's a design approach and an algorithm=2C initially created to add= a native XML get() and set() to all CORBA objects. Of course this discuss= ion does not belong at OMG because it applies equally to COM/DCOM=2C and fo= r that matter even MFC GUI objects are simplified with this design approach= (using no SAX and no DOM and no W3C recognized approach) - see the XMLDial= og example.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Date: Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:54= :31 +0000
>=3B >=3B Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Pa= rsing
>=3B >=3B From: dave@cridland.net
>=3B >=3B To: superus= er@gmail.com
>=3B >=3B CC: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.or= g
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Yes=3B unless there's a wire protocol i= nvolved=2C of course. But I get the impression there isn't in this case.>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On 4 March 2014 11:37=2C Murray S. Kucheraw= y <=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and= not us?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.= com>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hi world=2C
>=3B >=3B It's me again. I'= ll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my whole career to be o= n an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't this the place whe= re the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this is about .edu - and= sirs=2C mind you that is where all this Internet stuff came from. Now I k= now a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We = have moderators because we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know i= f ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just di= dn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. I put together a very complete ex= ample and implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in= my first posting:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B https= ://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AA= nvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B<= br>>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World - Would it be helpful if I put all = this together into an Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new q= uestion. This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for = IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using t= his stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The OLD quest= ion was "Should we have an RFC for this?"
>=3B >=3B The NEW question= is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that necessary? to get= the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the apps-discuss = admins who said that it could be equally as effective to get good discussio= n going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up th= e color volume a bit.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look= at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to = get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B From: xml4ietf@live.com
>=3B >=3B
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B Subject:= RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:= 40 -0700
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I am seeking community feedback regarding an o= fficial alternative to SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples t= hat show performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or= DOM. There are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Obj= ect Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in discussion he= re before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe = so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is simple.= It is "XML Serialization".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &g= t=3B XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must a= lso note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object= Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just= don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does nee= d this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identif= ied quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/for= ums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B
>=3B >=3B Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:4= 3 AM by Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I recommend that this thread be continuation = from that one=2C where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?= ) That is the question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this co= ncept http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have rece= ived much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that artic= le over the past decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML doc describin= g this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and refined all encompas= sing open source implementation.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finaliza= tion of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - = fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Ser= ialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to= use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to = describe the even more complex implementation which addresses the needs rai= sed in the above two public threads over the past decade.
>=3B >=3B<= br>>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Since the very purpose of IETF is designe= d to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can id= entify a need for it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no do= ubt) but collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RF= C for this? That is the question.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World=2C what do you think?
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B
>=3B
= --_1867bb01-ddd7-4d0f-8188-fd73ea93f4fb_-- From nobody Fri Mar 7 02:02:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378241A0164 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 02:02:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMBd9LSRHONM for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 02:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from off-send01.tyo.jprs.co.jp (off-send01.tyo.jprs.co.jp [IPv6:2001:df0:8:17::10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69F41A0255 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 02:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from off-sendsmg01.tyo.jprs.co.jp (off-sendsmg01.tyo.jprs.co.jp [172.18.8.32]) by off-send01.tyo.jprs.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s27A2GCx027290 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:02:19 +0900 X-AuditID: ac120820-b7f196d00000167f-bc-5319992ac734 Received: from NOTE772 (off-cpu04.tyo.jprs.co.jp [172.18.4.14]) by off-sendsmg01.tyo.jprs.co.jp (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 22.DA.05759.A2999135; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:02:18 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:02:16 +0900 From: Yoshiro YONEYA To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <20140307190216.71ac6e62cfef07d1524615a4@jprs.co.jp> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-mingw32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWyRoiFT1drpmSwweqP1harX65gc2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRt/iKYwFu1grOpftY2lgXMzSxcjJISFgInH40h12CFtM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgLHGSVO3ZwCVsQioCIxe9Z2RhCbTcBA4tey30wgtoiApMS+WZOZQWxhAWmJDRem gNXwCjhIvP12F2qBhcSFpg6gBRxAcUGJvzuEQcLMAloSD3/dYoGw5SW2v53DPIGRZxZC1Swk VbOQVC1gZF7FKJOflqZbnJqXUpybbmCoV1KZr5dVUFSslwyiNzGCg4VDYQfjjFMGhxgFOBiV eHinLZIIFmJNLCuuzD3EKMnBpCTKyzxVMliILyk/pTIjsTgjvqg0J7X4EKMEB7OSCG9XM1CO NyWxsiq1KB8mJc3BoiTOe/zPmUAhgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYrAwHh5IE78rpQI2CRanpqRVpmTkl CGkmDk6Q4TxAw8+B1PAWFyTmFmemQ+RPMUpKifNmgyQEQBIZpXlwva8YxYFeEObNAMnyACMf rusV0EAmoIEWgWADSxIRUlINjBps6WfSBJ5bt60Kby8+vPz7wU7+r37zFN/7JKXtXnlv5uQt oRb8sSs+CaXEnzuj460oK/FEc/qyDVFlT9fN1xBzXHm1VWXXmg2BUx7yC1vlC3usrNiYvDpy 1T8x8xKx2PfSpSXxZ66axR/bwKq9lTd6wT8urR//vi+8rndcyd/wb1vQRQkvCSWW4oxEQy3m ouJEADWZSd25AgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/eICrJUhBaftyRKLNHxUwRwzXGGI Subject: [apps-discuss] WG summary: precis X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:02:25 -0000 IETF89 WG summary for precis WG. precis WG met on Tuesday from 13:00 to 14:05. We discussed two topics. - saslprepbis and httpauthprep Those two profile documents treat preparation of credentials. Not to have many profiles, those document authors will have discussion whether those documents can merge or keep separate, and post the result to mailing list. - mappints This document should be more clear that this is for mapping guideline for user input. Text for local case mapping needs to be revised and some of attendees agreed to contribute text and review. Because of a guideline, status of this document is informational. Marc & Yoshiro, co-chairs From nobody Fri Mar 7 09:02:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD911A0290 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 09:02:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqbFVvwOfRjq for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 09:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAE01A01E7 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 09:02:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1800; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1394211760; x=1395421360; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=HHn3Gz4ehHJwA1ah1r1Obvt4g2EhEfIlbglrZerwhHs=; b=U2Z3hPoZjbpV4cCJaWOJH7Y5bNNxt1i5VcJLghbeRNUviX+xarJPSoSt 4f1XObr8IT1ELQ+TSRBK28jeuxn5G0RZ6OwvfMuM0DH2Tdv0ednwP/cVr DcBQtoXE8yNLJSO2Ga1Ma9I47Zi4QUhl5DBxow7Ei9ic2u6We3UV4wi0Q w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvAKAOD6GVOtJXG//2dsb2JhbABagwY7V6g5BJl6FnSDJD0WGAMCAQIBSw0GAgEBh3WfWrBIF454hCIEiRiPK5Irgy2CKw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,608,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="308582192" Received: from rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com ([173.37.113.191]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2014 17:02:39 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core2-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s27H2dR7002175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 17:02:39 GMT Received: from che-vpn-cluster-2-287.cisco.com (10.86.243.32) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 11:02:38 -0600 Message-ID: <5319FBAC.6000808@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 17:02:36 +0000 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.86.243.32] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/UUwaY1mprNJGy2ixf9_QFBkRWI8 Subject: [apps-discuss] WG Summary: JSON X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 17:02:46 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 The JSON WG met at IETF 89 today (2014-03-07), from 11:50 to 13:30 (time error from the chairs) Tim Bray (via Matt Miller) gave a presentation on I-JSON. The discussion in the room focused almost exclusively on the pros and cons of an explicit indicator (media-type, media-type suffix, embedded property). No form of consensus was reach in the room; discussion will continue on the list. Two presentations on nomenclature approaches were given: ProtoGen by Phil Hallam-Baker (via Paul Hoffman), and JSON content rules by Andy Newton. The discussion in the room focused mostly on the arguments for and against defining a specific approach. No form of consensus was reach in the room; discussion will continue on the list. Pete Resnick talked about a request from OMA (Open Mobile Alliance) for a stable reference to Zyp's JSON Schema. The sense in the room was that Zyp's draft can move forward as Informational to satisfy OMA's needs, and for the discussion on whether or not to define other schemas/notations/etc to continue. - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTGfusAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1IZgH/AryYLgnRo+iwFxx8JwIdXBY IM4SV5EMO0xOgcFrcAYzgeR82C3PChucLnXzxW5+rmuR+yBkOQEzwcj1w+Vh2YTq uYoWFi7eyMaf/u5qQ4zjr8yq+yKhd3NMO3iq36lO1f9xNZIJJatlYD1jmZwTFyq4 1wkr0gr6yJQ8OuaTUW6GUismQF5nd6Gx0d4jJZxji0FjtkEuhE3dj+Mz+lplL8GS 034k6S6aGg0nY13cbSlPe+OhVu+hcnO2gr+o94dRixAPjof/QY8qgxjziRvAQqdV +p/aOpxzpyr2LwFtCPdcsGqdPB536re2Yi18DQilSo643LbnaQq7cPJkLVVVxcg= =Hzt/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Tue Mar 11 09:51:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63441A079C for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.969 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.969 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQOO5026xSqL for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52AC1A07A8 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=beta; t=1394556653; bh=BWVbigdJa2JHP20Kz9HDOoC+2EbhaPkw9dnxCq9XPYg=; l=1576; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=quRo1SzD5nOahDUYRmCnkSJ68xKJgTck6E2WAdvIzwyWCL+vufiHOlxb6sY51Ingk o3wVbwcHqoBTMkOz1hlsFPYx0sZmizWgYXb61RixSm3q0uftpZ3S2FDoYRqNbxdF4r uJpRwd3BdyTuTwsOVQGHm9R3/5amUpvfHMfuy+r8= Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.88] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.88]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:50:52 +0100 id 00000000005DC039.00000000531F3EEC.0000761D Message-ID: <531F3EEB.1050401@tana.it> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:50:51 +0100 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131103 Icedove/17.0.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/hjJiDEEO-6tCrFKkeYGpqyR8Wl8 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:51:01 -0000 On Thu 06/Mar/2014 16:22:06 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: > On March 6, 2014 5:06:11 AM EST, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote: >> >> It looks like the simplest path forward is a small ABNF change with a >> matching IANA action to create a small registry of legal values. Since >> this WG processed RFC7001, it seems appropriate to handle this change >> as well. Unfortunately, this won't be backward-compatible with RFC7001, >> so we're looking at a "v=2" kind of deal. >> >> Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to provide >> comments and reviews on such a work item? > > Since TLS is about the channel, not the message we can shove this > under policy and call it good (as Franck suggests). I think it's > better to avoid the version bump if we can. For a different opinion, I think names like cert.verification are better than the more convolute policy.certverification, also considering what the "policy" ptype was meant for. So, yes, I'd bump the version number. Since this seems to be a somewhat recurring situation, I propose to relax hard-coding the possible ptypes. Adding a new ptype shouldn't require a version bump, just like adding a new method doesn't. In that case, I suggest that the absence of a version imply version "2", starting with the new version. That would be the only substantial incompatibility with how existing, valid header fields are going to be parsed under different versions. Apologies for the delayed reply, I'm not following this list so closely in this period. Ale From nobody Thu Mar 13 15:23:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885281A0768; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SVvx6ssrPqjb; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92C81A0747; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local ([173.247.205.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2DMMw6g088550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:22:58 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:22:57 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8Xn8jBcUeWf7h2nS2GEvx8FaK9sfTpKGH" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:22:59 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mnsUlcabdo2b_OfRUpS34ya5A8Q Subject: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:23:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8Xn8jBcUeWf7h2nS2GEvx8FaK9sfTpKGH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, I have taken on the AD sponsorship of draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some additional review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt/ from Martin Stiemerling . The concerns expressed in the IESG review of the independent stream submission of this document are visible here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/conflict-review-masotta-tftpexts-windows= ize-opt/ballot/311132/ The author and I have discussed and applied non-normative text to the document describing how TFTP implementations respond to persistent error conditions, inclusive of repeated loss. While somewhat different in effect than traditional implementations of RFC 1350, implementations of tftp window-size applying behavior consistent with current tftp implementations and the advice in draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt can be expected to do what tftp implementations do in the the face of persistent or pathological conditions (which is bail-out) e.g. fail. diff vs 08 which Martin was shepherding is visble here. http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-op= t-09.txt While we could revisit the subject of advice that RFC 1350 provides to implementers with respect to when to bail-out (It doesn't provide any, nor do subsequent updates) existing lore, mature code and common sense (in addition to how it is commonly used) have effectively prevented TFTP from becoming a menace for more than two decades, a modest extension to allow transmission queues greater than lock-step transmission for supporting implementations should not in my view motivate significant concern but I'd like feedback on that... Thanks joel --8Xn8jBcUeWf7h2nS2GEvx8FaK9sfTpKGH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMiL8EACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrKvBgCeM9sFoJjocniNKBMsmKyXeGKp tGEAn37Rua70zXMH6hYbOiO9sxDdgQQB =SRuP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8Xn8jBcUeWf7h2nS2GEvx8FaK9sfTpKGH-- From nobody Thu Mar 13 22:55:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E028E1A0056 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:55:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yQ0rp2nCWXSb for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B965C1A0051 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.55] (unknown [118.209.14.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4179F509B5 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 01:54:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:55:45 +1100 References: <20140314055314.10989.3145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/IqP36HhmCYNlEumoPS5ftD3hZyE Subject: [apps-discuss] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 05:55:15 -0000 This is just a bit of a thought experiment, would be interested to hear = reactions. Cheers, Begin forwarded message: > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt > Date: 14 March 2014 4:53:14 pm AEDT > To: "Mark Nottingham" , Mark Nottingham >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-nottingham-http-patch-status > Revision: 00 > Title: The 2NN Patch HTTP Status Code > Document date: 2014-03-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 8 > URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.= txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status/ > Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the 2NN Patch HTTP status code to allow > servers to perform partial updates of stored responses in client > caches. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Mar 14 00:35:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48AC1A008D for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUFQK-rryF_j for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2622E1A0059 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id s2E7ZWBx026430; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:35:33 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 712a_4e7d_395efc4e_ab4b_11e3_991c_001e6722eec2; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:35:32 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA70C048C; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:35:31 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <5322B13B.8070206@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:35:23 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham , IETF Apps Discuss References: <20140314055314.10989.3145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/MJSLpgla3YO7TF0RBqyRUKAtH_s Cc: ishihata@sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:35:47 -0000 Hello Mark, On 2014/03/14 14:55, Mark Nottingham wrote: > This is just a bit of a thought experiment, would be interested to hear reactions. A very nice thought experiment indeed, and hopefully soon more than just that. In connection with a Master Thesis (*) here at my Lab where we looked at the gaps between REST and Websockets (and by extension, AJAX and similar stuff), I have been thinking about how to better integrate patching into HTTP (in particular also the push stuff in HTTP2, which you mention in Appendix A). (*) by Shouhei ISHIHATA, in Japanese, sorry. So here are my comments: (please separate threads in replies where appropriate) TODO: is this a 2NN or 3xx?: I'd tend to 2NN. It's definitely success in the sense that it's what the client was asking for. We also have 206 Partial Content, and a patch is partial content, too. Also, the URI stays the same, which isn't usually what happens for a 3XX. And there's no followup request. But see also below. Accept-Patch header field: This seems to indicate two things, namely 1) the client supports 2NN patching, and 2) the patch formats the client can handle. I was just thinking: why not put 2) into the good old Accept header field? It would be something like: Accept: application/json, application/patch+json which just says: You can send me the full format, or a patch. If we wanted to get rid completely of the Accept-Patch header field, we still would need some kind of client capability announcement. Or create a registry that identifies certain content types as patches (but then patches can be resources in their own right, too). Just thinking out loud (and written before discovering that Accept-Patch is already defined for responses in RFC 5789). Server capability: How can a server say that it is able to send patches/that a certain resource can send patches? Clients may not want to send additional headers if they are not sure the server/resource will handle it. What's the best way to get over the chicken and egg problem? Entity tags: Is this the only way to identify versions? Wouldn't the dates in If-Modified-Since work, too? Why are there two etags in your example (If-None-Match: "abcdef", "ghijkl")? Is this just to show that more than one etag is okay? Or is there an expectation that the client send as many as possible in the hope the server has a patch for one of them? Presumably the client got both "abcdef" and "ghijkl" from the same origin, and the origin should have patches available between any two versions, and the later the base version for the patch, the easier for the server. >>>> In particular, the stored response to apply a 2NN (Patch) response to is the same; if none is selected, the patch fails, and the client MAY resubmit the request without an Accept-Patch header field, in order to get a full response. >>>> Why would the client send an Accept-Patch header field if it doesn't have something to apply the patch to? >>>> However, the following fields MUST not be updated: Content-Type, Patched. >>>> Re. Content-Type: I guess the idea of having a 'patch' that converts from one content-type to another is rather crazy, but couldn't it be that an application/patch+json converts from application/abc+json to application/def+json if these two are rather close? Re. Patched: shouldn't you say that the field MUST NOT be created? (rather than MUST not be updated). Also, is Patched: the right header field name? What about Patches:? "This patches version ghijkl" and not "this pached version ghijkl" is certainly how I'd informally read Patched: "ghijkl" IANA considerations: "which ought to be reflected in the registry.": Why not just write "please add to the registry"? In the Master Thesis that I mentioned above, we looked at how to reflect updates via WebSocket in sequences of URIs. The main example we used was an interactive board game. The states after each move were represented as something like http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=nn. Changes such as moves by the remote player, from e.g. http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=22 to http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=23, were handled in code. Of course the differences between two board states can be expressed as a patch, but it would then be interesting to have something roughly like: GET http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=22 HTTP/1.1 Host: api.example.com Accept-Patch: application/patch+json User-Agent: Example/1.0 (request implicit because assuming HTTP2 push) HTTP/1.1 2NN Patch Content-Type: application/patch+json Content-Location: http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=23 Content-Location here is (mis?)used to indicate that the patch creates the representation of a new resource, rather than updating the current resource. Does at least the idea behind this make sense? In this case, maybe a 3NN is better than a 2NN. Related to the above, both this draft as well as HTTP2 push uses the word "cache" a lot, sometimes exclusively. While cache updates are clearly a prime target for patching and pushing, in interactive applications the data should reach the final user agent and the screen. Any problems with keeping the language a bit more general? Regards, Martin. > Cheers, > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt >> Date: 14 March 2014 4:53:14 pm AEDT >> To: "Mark Nottingham" , Mark Nottingham >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-nottingham-http-patch-status >> Revision: 00 >> Title: The 2NN Patch HTTP Status Code >> Document date: 2014-03-14 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 8 >> URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status/ >> Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00 >> >> >> Abstract: >> This document specifies the 2NN Patch HTTP status code to allow >> servers to perform partial updates of stored responses in client >> caches. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > From nobody Fri Mar 14 02:37:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA061A00E1; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 02:36:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dEpXgXFOH-cI; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 02:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A9C1A00F6; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 02:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2E9aeJ3092139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:36:41 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <5322CDA3.6020309@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 02:36:35 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ttvXBDl0UB0GbkRK0nWImhXsAqSroDaFS" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:36:42 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/64-E8ZZObYN4FsPlqKJKiNC_1WU Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:36:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ttvXBDl0UB0GbkRK0nWImhXsAqSroDaFS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/13/14, 11:50 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, >=20 > have there been any substantive changes addressing the lack of > congestion control? If I recall correctly, that was the critical > issue in the past. (The diff at the URL below doesn't seem to do > that.) The expected response to congestion induced loss (or in fact any other source of induced loss) across multiple windows is to fail. this is entirely consistent with how traditional tftp implementations address persistent faults. If you treat acks of partial window sized blocks as non-acks are in lockstep tftp implentations and you have imposed at threshold after which you will fail then induced loss will cause you to fail as it does deployed tftp implementations. >=20 > Lars >=20 > On 2014-3-13, at 23:22, joel jaeggli wrote: >=20 >> Greetings, >>=20 >> I have taken on the AD sponsorship of=20 >> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some >> additional review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last >> call. >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt= / >> >> >>=20 from Martin Stiemerling . The concerns expressed in the IESG review of >> the independent stream submission of this document are visible >> here: >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/conflict-review-masotta-tftpexts-wind= owsize-opt/ballot/311132/ >> >> >>=20 The author and I have discussed and applied non-normative text to the >> document describing how TFTP implementations respond to persistent >> error conditions, inclusive of repeated loss. While somewhat >> different in effect than traditional implementations of RFC 1350, >> implementations of tftp window-size applying behavior consistent >> with current tftp implementations and the advice in >> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt can be expected to do what >> tftp implementations do in the the face of persistent or >> pathological conditions (which is bail-out) e.g. fail. >>=20 >> diff vs 08 which Martin was shepherding is visble here. >>=20 >> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize= -opt-09.txt >> >> >>=20 While we could revisit the subject of advice that RFC 1350 provides to >> implementers with respect to when to bail-out (It doesn't provide >> any, nor do subsequent updates) existing lore, mature code and >> common sense (in addition to how it is commonly used) have >> effectively prevented TFTP from becoming a menace for more than >> two decades, a modest extension to allow transmission queues >> greater than lock-step transmission for supporting implementations >> should not in my view motivate significant concern but I'd like >> feedback on that... >>=20 >> Thanks joel >>=20 >=20 --ttvXBDl0UB0GbkRK0nWImhXsAqSroDaFS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMizaMACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJYogCcCfrsO9+DYdlTT7rHa3pUnhV1 itwAn0s6cbeoAZBFMOBJs5mf5jfBaW/L =YAo3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ttvXBDl0UB0GbkRK0nWImhXsAqSroDaFS-- From nobody Fri Mar 14 03:50:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E321A0122; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bkDNMRfIYncn; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBDD1A0106; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2EAoHM8092512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:50:18 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <5322DEE4.5090803@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:50:12 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> <5322CDA3.6020309@bogus.com> <61321C6A-EB68-4324-83D3-635A89C61701@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <61321C6A-EB68-4324-83D3-635A89C61701@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XiuxCkGis8HBrHXeSDOOrdm2tsmrmV8nU" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/C9IcvgMQqiy-7x_3Q0EUMTgfmhs Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:50:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XiuxCkGis8HBrHXeSDOOrdm2tsmrmV8nU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/14, 3:43 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On 2014-3-14, at 10:36, joel jaeggli wrote: >> The expected response to congestion induced loss (or in fact any other= >> source of induced loss) across multiple windows is to fail. this is >> entirely consistent with how traditional tftp implementations address= >> persistent faults. If you treat acks of partial window sized blocks as= >> non-acks are in lockstep tftp implentations and you have imposed at >> threshold after which you will fail then induced loss will cause you t= o >> fail as it does deployed tftp implementations. >=20 > I don't quite follow. What is the behavior is some packets of a window = are lost, retransmission of the full window? Retransmission of the delta?= >=20 > In any event, unless the window is shrunk and/or delays before retries = are being applied, I don't see anything here that actually reduces the se= nding rate when loss is detected, which is required. aborting the transfer is pretty effective at reducing reducing the rate. > Lars >=20 --XiuxCkGis8HBrHXeSDOOrdm2tsmrmV8nU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMi3uQACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrKJkwCggHPePqOWdyRjqivtWS+rwCZQ eHkAn3nHOo29QhRfZv50evRasgLwsviI =AiD6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XiuxCkGis8HBrHXeSDOOrdm2tsmrmV8nU-- From nobody Fri Mar 14 09:27:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8751A005E; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J6NbM3PTgFr1; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8BD1A0059; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,652,1389772800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="149961885" Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2014 23:50:40 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.211]) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 23:50:40 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Joel Jaeggli Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: AQHPPwrgG9TCO+0oCkqdjEnmNpnX/5rgmrEA Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 06:50:39 +0000 Message-ID: <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.105.27] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0397C368-94C6-49B1-9389-4307C8D1C3A6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/VtoPH76qpCwwKd05RF4JXO0_O5Y X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:27:28 -0700 Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 06:50:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0397C368-94C6-49B1-9389-4307C8D1C3A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, have there been any substantive changes addressing the lack of = congestion control? If I recall correctly, that was the critical issue = in the past. (The diff at the URL below doesn't seem to do that.) Lars On 2014-3-13, at 23:22, joel jaeggli wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > I have taken on the AD sponsorship of > draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some = additional > review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt/ >=20 > from Martin Stiemerling . The concerns expressed in the IESG review of > the independent stream submission of this document are visible here: >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/conflict-review-masotta-tftpexts-windowsi= ze-opt/ballot/311132/ >=20 > The author and I have discussed and applied non-normative text to the > document describing how TFTP implementations respond to persistent = error > conditions, inclusive of repeated loss. While somewhat different in > effect than traditional implementations of RFC 1350, implementations = of > tftp window-size applying behavior consistent with current tftp > implementations and the advice in = draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt > can be expected to do what tftp implementations do in the the face of > persistent or pathological conditions (which is bail-out) e.g. fail. >=20 > diff vs 08 which Martin was shepherding is visble here. >=20 > = http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt= -09.txt >=20 > While we could revisit the subject of advice that RFC 1350 provides to > implementers with respect to when to bail-out (It doesn't provide any, > nor do subsequent updates) existing lore, mature code and common sense > (in addition to how it is commonly used) have effectively prevented = TFTP > from becoming a menace for more than two decades, a modest extension = to > allow transmission queues greater than lock-step transmission for > supporting implementations should not in my view motivate significant > concern but I'd like feedback on that... >=20 > Thanks > joel >=20 --Apple-Mail=_0397C368-94C6-49B1-9389-4307C8D1C3A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUyKmwtZcnpRveo1xAQK/VAQAvEcL+PME1pGqmR2eS6V2HdM/lryW15B2 T4i/eSQqU89YfR5PkPWmOrERgnWyQt+vgTCv8HJQvUPha9E/NYdXB55Ek4icp7i+ REPgE837o0OWQtqw42NX2I3cbeuwhgaWMM9Q9LiQ2Q+GV6LgBwLzcid6RnnnnAQP N4mf3yapzRw= =7Fav -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0397C368-94C6-49B1-9389-4307C8D1C3A6-- From nobody Fri Mar 14 09:27:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50ED01A010E; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z7_E1j1Sl6do; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.netapp.com (mx1.netapp.com [216.240.18.38]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3FB1A0100; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,653,1389772800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="313682964" Received: from vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) by mx1-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2014 03:43:06 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.211]) by vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:43:05 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Joel Jaeggli Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: AQHPPwrgG9TCO+0oCkqdjEnmNpnX/5rgmrEAgAAuWYCAABKUAA== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:43:05 +0000 Message-ID: <61321C6A-EB68-4324-83D3-635A89C61701@netapp.com> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> <5322CDA3.6020309@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <5322CDA3.6020309@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.105.27] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F051E17E-EC81-46EC-BC49-2A73D010F238"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/BVu0Bfl4xDOChQ8nRyx3CVw5pB0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:27:28 -0700 Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:43:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F051E17E-EC81-46EC-BC49-2A73D010F238 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, On 2014-3-14, at 10:36, joel jaeggli wrote: > The expected response to congestion induced loss (or in fact any other > source of induced loss) across multiple windows is to fail. this is > entirely consistent with how traditional tftp implementations address > persistent faults. If you treat acks of partial window sized blocks as > non-acks are in lockstep tftp implentations and you have imposed at > threshold after which you will fail then induced loss will cause you = to > fail as it does deployed tftp implementations. I don't quite follow. What is the behavior is some packets of a window = are lost, retransmission of the full window? Retransmission of the = delta? In any event, unless the window is shrunk and/or delays before retries = are being applied, I don't see anything here that actually reduces the = sending rate when loss is detected, which is required. Lars --Apple-Mail=_F051E17E-EC81-46EC-BC49-2A73D010F238 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUyLdONZcnpRveo1xAQLR/AP/bNEf1R2OG3eKBvY7QbPU9ksOA+nWdqMH 9Pt+qxv+N65CCMaR21pWVwpmAYbNT0VjxiuzenvSwEKZIp/DpVJgoQqRNyVzUiit T/to8LT7tssbHfyYJvhpYn4J1PkCNtDH6ifAFCMuAU3H4dJ52HgPU7ohWXFfSUpZ JPRdvsCa8+8= =3/RU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F051E17E-EC81-46EC-BC49-2A73D010F238-- From nobody Fri Mar 14 09:27:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3B91A0119; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 04:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YLdvlAFMvvDd; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 04:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8F01A0110; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 04:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,654,1389772800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="150011586" Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2014 04:01:24 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.211]) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 04:01:23 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Joel Jaeggli Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: AQHPPwrgG9TCO+0oCkqdjEnmNpnX/5rgmrEAgAAuWYCAABKUAIAAAf4AgAADHwA= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:01:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <769950FD-3E19-41E8-8698-B31A45F57657@netapp.com> <5322CDA3.6020309@bogus.com> <61321C6A-EB68-4324-83D3-635A89C61701@netapp.com> <5322DEE4.5090803@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <5322DEE4.5090803@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.105.11] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41DA4E9B-AEF4-4F30-B498-A3F85F4FB558"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/oeycoE5yR5MOClfDCXStlUBZIFw X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:27:28 -0700 Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:01:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41DA4E9B-AEF4-4F30-B498-A3F85F4FB558 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 2014-3-14, at 11:50, joel jaeggli wrote: > aborting the transfer is pretty effective at reducing reducing the rate. Where is the abort mechanism specified? Lars --Apple-Mail=_41DA4E9B-AEF4-4F30-B498-A3F85F4FB558 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUyLhgtZcnpRveo1xAQJYxQP/bmbqvFe9YuDjxXkzWTUYwLXqv2GQpNFp m2fySefP8oZamRADhrdRkeWH7+fOjOTM92Pg8qrUuaXXbpCltlOTxDsUqcJbgayu ot9bEY674jQToKRqzKTQ9c/6qTcrlMsKcdsAsTP7K60Rs3/ZFGLUOrZYR53u2ZCr GvcihEbFkGc= =GJsh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_41DA4E9B-AEF4-4F30-B498-A3F85F4FB558-- From nobody Fri Mar 14 13:35:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F0F1A01C8; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJoOZachWAPI; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680E51A01B5; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.81] (nib.isi.edu [128.9.160.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2EKYEPK028081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:34:18 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/dW-4MpkFUrD9INIxbsgmb3FjIqg Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:35:39 -0000 Hi, Joel, On 3/13/2014 3:22 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: > Greetings, > > I have taken on the AD sponsorship of > draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some additional > review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. FWIW, this ought to be vetted in a broader venue, e.g., TSVWG. I'm not very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt/ A quick check indicates a few disconnects, summarized below. Joe > Congestion and Error Control > > From a congestion control standpoint while the number of blocks in > a window does not represent a threat, The entirety of TCP's congestion control is about managing the window size; the same is true here. Increasing the window absolutely increases the potential for congestion and represents a threat. The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and SHOULD abort (under what conditions?) How are retransmissions handled? Go-back-N is known problematic; SACK requires a much more complex mechanism. The document should also request that IANA register "windowsize" as the TFTP option string (and IANA should have a registry of these - they currently don't appear to). ---- From nobody Sat Mar 15 09:20:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC661A00C3; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcazxMfLK8Rt; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383C31A00B9; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2FGKYll005878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 15 Mar 2014 16:20:35 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:20:29 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch , apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qfc0eKNiP28NSWgQ1KoXTDo9EiqaNren3" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sat, 15 Mar 2014 16:20:35 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/VwxWo3D8BXHoLEtpfjkp4XduzII Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 16:20:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qfc0eKNiP28NSWgQ1KoXTDo9EiqaNren3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > Hi, Joel, >=20 > On 3/13/2014 3:22 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I have taken on the AD sponsorship of >> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some addition= al >> review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. > > FWIW, this ought to be vetted in a broader venue, e.g., TSVWG. I'm not > very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. This is very useful feedback. The process that got this thing from an independent stream submission in iesg conflict review to where we are today is somewhat torturous, that's why I'm asking. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt= / >=20 > A quick check indicates a few disconnects, summarized below. >=20 > Joe >=20 >> Congestion and Error Control >> >> From a congestion control standpoint while the number of blocks in >> a window does not represent a threat, >=20 > The entirety of TCP's congestion control is about managing the window > size; the same is true here. Increasing the window absolutely increases= > the potential for congestion and represents a threat. >=20 > The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., > SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and SHOULD= > abort (under what conditions?) I sympathize with the authors lack of desire to specify specific values which may be appropriate now but not into the future. That said. I would be happier with examples. (I am aware of some of them) > How are retransmissions handled? Go-back-N is known problematic; SACK > requires a much more complex mechanism. >=20 > The document should also request that IANA register "windowsize" as the= > TFTP option string (and IANA should have a registry of these - they > currently don't appear to). Yes that seems necessary. >=20 > ---- >=20 --qfc0eKNiP28NSWgQ1KoXTDo9EiqaNren3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMkfc0ACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrKhZgCbBLFsxP/uQ3bOS3VvfU0xTZkH dVcAn3plyfUiOFn0gi46C+M3PUilu4TB =7C77 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qfc0eKNiP28NSWgQ1KoXTDo9EiqaNren3-- From nobody Sat Mar 15 11:43:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5CE1A019D; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MfV4mkV5J60A; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308F21A0192; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2FIgPcl018139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:42:29 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/isQC9de5SPqEfeHR3xW4iIH5k6U Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 18:43:17 -0000 On 3/15/2014 9:20 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: .. >> The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., >> SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and SHOULD >> abort (under what conditions?) > > I sympathize with the authors lack of desire to specify specific values > which may be appropriate now but not into the future. That said. I would > be happier with examples. (I am aware of some of them) My basic metric on SHOULD is that it needs to explain the reason for not using MUST or MAY. I.e., there's a recommendation here, but not enough to be invariant. If a SHOULD is 'SHOULD do X', that implies there are reasons not to; that warrants an explanation. If a SHOULD is "SHOULD be capable of X", that implies both enough of a target that it warrants a described procedure to get there AND reasons when this might not be appropriate. If you don't know enough to answer either of these, then you don't know enough to say "SHOULD". Joe From nobody Sat Mar 15 12:49:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F4A1A01D5 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C-CesxUaUsSg for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054B51A01C0 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mnot-air.mnot.net (unknown [118.209.54.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55D95509B5 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 15:49:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 06:49:09 +1100 References: <20140315194558.13168.87715.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF Apps Discuss Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mOelHgNDs3kp12JAqvahG9UioKg Subject: [apps-discuss] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-safe-hint-01.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 19:49:22 -0000 FYI; now =93preference=94 based. Begin forwarded message: > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-safe-hint-01.txt > Date: 16 March 2014 6:45:58 am AEDT > To: "Mark Nottingham" , Mark Nottingham >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-safe-hint-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-nottingham-safe-hint > Revision: 01 > Title: The "safe" HTTP Preference > Document date: 2014-03-16 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-safe-hint-01.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-safe-hint/ > Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-safe-hint-01 > Diff: = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-safe-hint-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This specification defines a "safe" preference for HTTP, expressing = a > user preference to avoid "objectionable" content. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sat Mar 15 13:12:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F431A01C0 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MY5p20xHqlwB for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15AD1A020A for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.57] (unknown [118.209.54.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87EFB509B6; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 16:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5322B13B.8070206@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:12:11 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E93599A-23B1-44E2-AF73-888D082EB3B6@mnot.net> References: <20140314055314.10989.3145.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5322B13B.8070206@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Y_wMZUWLdnL26SAKNZn2clPutQI Cc: ishihata@sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp, IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:12:34 -0000 Hi Martin! Thanks for the feedback. Responses below. On 14 Mar 2014, at 6:35 pm, Martin J. D=FCrst = wrote: > Hello Mark, >=20 > On 2014/03/14 14:55, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> This is just a bit of a thought experiment, would be interested to = hear reactions. >=20 > A very nice thought experiment indeed, and hopefully soon more than = just that. >=20 >=20 > In connection with a Master Thesis (*) here at my Lab where we looked = at the gaps between REST and Websockets (and by extension, AJAX and = similar stuff), I have been thinking about how to better integrate = patching into HTTP (in particular also the push stuff in HTTP2, which = you mention in Appendix A). >=20 > (*) by Shouhei ISHIHATA, in Japanese, sorry. >=20 >=20 > So here are my comments: > (please separate threads in replies where appropriate) >=20 >=20 > TODO: is this a 2NN or 3xx?: I'd tend to 2NN. It's definitely success = in the sense that it's what the client was asking for. We also have 206 = Partial Content, and a patch is partial content, too. Also, the URI = stays the same, which isn't usually what happens for a 3XX. And there's = no followup request. But see also below. That was my thinking too, although a 3xx doesn=92t *have* to change the = URI or have a followup request; 3xx really means =93get it somewhere = else=94, e.g., 304 means =93get it from your cache.". Sometimes the = status code class is a bit arbitrary... > Accept-Patch header field: This seems to indicate two things, namely = 1) the client supports 2NN patching, and 2) the patch formats the client = can handle. I was just thinking: why not put 2) into the good old Accept = header field? It would be something like: > Accept: application/json, application/patch+json > which just says: You can send me the full format, or a patch. If we = wanted to get rid completely of the Accept-Patch header field, we still = would need some kind of client capability announcement. Or create a = registry that identifies certain content types as patches (but then = patches can be resources in their own right, too). Just thinking out = loud (and written before discovering that Accept-Patch is already = defined for responses in RFC 5789). That would be Bad, because it would make it hard to talk about the = difference between downloading a patch file on its own right, as a 200 = response, vs. being able to apply it. > Server capability: How can a server say that it is able to send = patches/that a certain resource can send patches? Clients may not want = to send additional headers if they are not sure the server/resource will = handle it. What's the best way to get over the chicken and egg problem? This comes up in many different contexts. There have been proposals in = the past to address this kind of discovery (e.g., = ), = but for various reasons they haven=92t caught on with browsers. With = HTTP/2 coming, the overhead of sending an extra request header is = significantly lower, so there will be even less reason to do discovery = soon... > Entity tags: Is this the only way to identify versions? Wouldn't the = dates in If-Modified-Since work, too? They=92re weak validators, so that=92s a bit risky. I haven=92t talked = about ETag strength yet, but probably should (along the same lines that = partial content responses do). > Why are there two etags in your example (If-None-Match: "abcdef", = "ghijkl")? Is this just to show that more than one etag is okay? Yes. > Or is there an expectation that the client send as many as possible in = the hope the server has a patch for one of them? Yes. :)=20 > Presumably the client got both "abcdef" and "ghijkl" from the same = origin, and the origin should have patches available between any two = versions, and the later the base version for the patch, the easier for = the server. >=20 >=20 > >>>> > In particular, the stored response to apply a 2NN (Patch) response = to > is the same; if none is selected, the patch fails, and the client = MAY > resubmit the request without an Accept-Patch header field, in order > to get a full response. > >>>> > Why would the client send an Accept-Patch header field if it doesn't = have something to apply the patch to? It might have one or more things that the patch *might* apply to, but = the response fails through the selection algorithm. >=20 >=20 > >>>> However, the > following fields MUST not be updated: Content-Type, Patched. > >>>> > Re. Content-Type: I guess the idea of having a 'patch' that converts = from one content-type to another is rather crazy, but couldn't it be = that an application/patch+json converts from application/abc+json to = application/def+json if these two are rather close? No, that=92s not crazy; patch formats that operate on headers have been = discussed (but not yet minted). I think the current text allows this, in = that it says =93after applying the patch format=85" > Re. Patched: shouldn't you say that the field MUST NOT be created? = (rather than MUST not be updated). Also, is Patched: the right header = field name? What about Patches:? "This patches version ghijkl" and not = "this pached version ghijkl" is certainly how I'd informally read > Patched: =93ghijkl" Will adjust. I like Patches... > IANA considerations: "which ought to be reflected in the registry.": = Why not just write "please add to the registry=94? Thank you for the wordsmithing :) > In the Master Thesis that I mentioned above, we looked at how to = reflect updates via WebSocket in sequences of URIs. The main example we = used was an interactive board game. The states after each move were = represented as something like http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=3Dnn. = Changes such as moves by the remote player, from e.g. = http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=3D22 to = http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=3D23, were handled in code. Of = course the differences between two board states can be expressed as a = patch, but it would then be interesting to have something roughly like: >=20 > GET http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=3D22 HTTP/1.1 > Host: api.example.com > Accept-Patch: application/patch+json > User-Agent: Example/1.0 > (request implicit because assuming HTTP2 push) >=20 > HTTP/1.1 2NN Patch > Content-Type: application/patch+json > Content-Location: http://play.game.org/games/nnnnn?move=3D23 > Content-Location here is (mis?)used to indicate that the patch creates = the representation of a new resource, rather than updating the current = resource. Does at least the idea behind this make sense? In this case, = maybe a 3NN is better than a 2NN. Hmm, not sure. Would have to work through it in detail, I suspect. >=20 >=20 > Related to the above, both this draft as well as HTTP2 push uses the = word "cache" a lot, sometimes exclusively. While cache updates are = clearly a prime target for patching and pushing, in interactive = applications the data should reach the final user agent and the screen. = Any problems with keeping the language a bit more general? I think it can probably move to =93stored response=94 more; usually it = will be in a cache, but it doesn=92t have to be. Cheers, and thanks again! >=20 >=20 > Regards, Martin. >=20 >=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt >>> Date: 14 March 2014 4:53:14 pm AEDT >>> To: "Mark Nottingham" , Mark Nottingham = >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the >>> IETF repository. >>>=20 >>> Name: draft-nottingham-http-patch-status >>> Revision: 00 >>> Title: The 2NN Patch HTTP Status Code >>> Document date: 2014-03-14 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 8 >>> URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00.= txt >>> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status/ >>> Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-patch-status-00 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> This document specifies the 2NN Patch HTTP status code to allow >>> servers to perform partial updates of stored responses in client >>> caches. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> The IETF Secretariat >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> apps-discuss mailing list >> apps-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss >>=20 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Mar 16 08:09:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15251A01E9; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 08:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXiVzhjqKg8M; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED4B1A01D2; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local (c-50-174-18-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.174.18.221]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2GF92Y4012313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:09:03 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <5325BE88.80403@bogus.com> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 08:08:56 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk, touch@isi.edu, apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org, martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu>, <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334781@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334781@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PvHQprK4NE1OCenJeQ8OveP5DV62nxik0" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:09:03 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/24vAAWV3SWMbnLRA9drr274hOFM Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:09:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --PvHQprK4NE1OCenJeQ8OveP5DV62nxik0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/15/14, 10:05 PM, l.wood@surrey.ac.uk wrote: > I am uncomfortable with independent stream > submissions modifying standards track documents, > and getting published as standards track. Agree to the former that's a basis for IESG conflict review, the later isn't possible under our rules. In it's present form it is AD-sponsored, so it has been removed from the independent stream. This was done after conflict review in the IESG concluded that it conflicted with existing (not ongoing) IETF work. I doubt there's enough work here to form tftpext-redux, hence my solicitation of feedback to help the author and provide me with guidance as to how to proceed. Thanks joel > Lloyd Wood > http://about.me/lloydwood > ________________________________________ > From: tsv-area [tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli [j= oelja@bogus.com] > Sent: 15 March 2014 16:20 > To: Joe Touch; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org; Martin Stiemer= ling > Subject: Re: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 >=20 > On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >> Hi, Joel, >> >> On 3/13/2014 3:22 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: >>> Greetings, >>> >>> I have taken on the AD sponsorship of >>> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some additio= nal >>> review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. >> >> FWIW, this ought to be vetted in a broader venue, e.g., TSVWG. I'm not= >> very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. >=20 > This is very useful feedback. >=20 > The process that got this thing from an independent stream submission > in iesg conflict review to where we are today is somewhat torturous, > that's why I'm asking. >=20 >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-op= t/ >> >> A quick check indicates a few disconnects, summarized below. >> >> Joe >> >>> Congestion and Error Control >>> >>> From a congestion control standpoint while the number of blocks in= >>> a window does not represent a threat, >> >> The entirety of TCP's congestion control is about managing the window >> size; the same is true here. Increasing the window absolutely increase= s >> the potential for congestion and represents a threat. >> >> The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., >> SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and SHOUL= D >> abort (under what conditions?) >=20 > I sympathize with the authors lack of desire to specify specific values= > which may be appropriate now but not into the future. That said. I woul= d > be happier with examples. (I am aware of some of them) >=20 >=20 >> How are retransmissions handled? Go-back-N is known problematic; SACK >> requires a much more complex mechanism. >> >> The document should also request that IANA register "windowsize" as th= e >> TFTP option string (and IANA should have a registry of these - they >> currently don't appear to). >=20 > Yes that seems necessary. >=20 >> >> ---- >> >=20 >=20 >=20 --PvHQprK4NE1OCenJeQ8OveP5DV62nxik0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMlvokACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrLS0wCfaDUftqEW8OKxqIr99fexanKj s+MAoIOiOmZtFIDYdW3xu+vhjwD8qqhA =i9PG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PvHQprK4NE1OCenJeQ8OveP5DV62nxik0-- From nobody Sun Mar 16 10:08:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597101A02DD for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1OF0NOhu8C2 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe14:43:76:96:62:64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC971A02E5 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.27]) by qmta07.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id eH5t1n0020bG4ec57H7mBx; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:07:46 +0000 Received: from JV6RVH1 ([67.189.237.137]) by omta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id eH7l1n0082yZEBF3PH7lYX; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:07:46 +0000 From: "ietfdbh" To: , , , , , References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu>, <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334781@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334781@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:07:40 -0400 Message-ID: <00ff01cf413a$3d732a60$b8597f20$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGcmpuMDvVTMbp6WYZkNTJffVjs1AD3LNE6AfihvggBLdm+AZsoUfpg Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1394989666; bh=itdLWEaO3kTpoB5M57Gokqb7PMIznScTOulTAUbPsVk=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=G8rAbiTUjrXv1zoz2J+1LZfYzyTQclp7lV/n+/X+xoVc7m4J6Z6w5ozU1Ydwn7TuE lPekueqsM7Qti2yYXpDG5i26l5XAY/E7z3gWmE0GWJtN/uJrQe561yBd8XVSRUMwmB YJfQyL4aqqYvHklYligAFasSiYISb0Q8NN3mtmEsmAO+ZluYCfluaxzxjk1jVg4BNc txHL77UmypouUlzM7BsJ4aK0cQzrCATC7JTux3C22V3mN47WrVnXNUfV79MKW6Y8Sx 12yrYDkmVwNB2i1vvE3WuOQjKFotS/xFVnbjomTiwL8Vquls0Qws05igtSPR1JIpRU CybVAWKQDPOYw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/6-3Vw1S8lve1g_L9owXxNbhdve8 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:07:58 -0000 +1 David Harrington ietfdbh@comcast.net +1-603-828-1401 > -----Original Message----- > From: tsv-area [mailto:tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > l.wood@surrey.ac.uk > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 1:06 AM > To: joelja@bogus.com; touch@isi.edu; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv- > area@ietf.org; martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > Subject: RE: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 > > I am uncomfortable with independent stream > submissions modifying standards track documents, > and getting published as standards track. > > Lloyd Wood > http://about.me/lloydwood > ________________________________________ > From: tsv-area [tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli > [joelja@bogus.com] > Sent: 15 March 2014 16:20 > To: Joe Touch; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org; Martin Stiemerling > Subject: Re: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 > > On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > Hi, Joel, > > > > On 3/13/2014 3:22 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: > >> Greetings, > >> > >> I have taken on the AD sponsorship of > >> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some > additional > >> review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. > > > > FWIW, this ought to be vetted in a broader venue, e.g., TSVWG. I'm not > > very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. > > This is very useful feedback. > > The process that got this thing from an independent stream submission > in iesg conflict review to where we are today is somewhat torturous, > that's why I'm asking. > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt/ > > > > A quick check indicates a few disconnects, summarized below. > > > > Joe > > > >> Congestion and Error Control > >> > >> From a congestion control standpoint while the number of blocks in > >> a window does not represent a threat, > > > > The entirety of TCP's congestion control is about managing the window > > size; the same is true here. Increasing the window absolutely increases > > the potential for congestion and represents a threat. > > > > The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., > > SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and > SHOULD > > abort (under what conditions?) > > I sympathize with the authors lack of desire to specify specific values > which may be appropriate now but not into the future. That said. I would > be happier with examples. (I am aware of some of them) > > > > How are retransmissions handled? Go-back-N is known problematic; SACK > > requires a much more complex mechanism. > > > > The document should also request that IANA register "windowsize" as the > > TFTP option string (and IANA should have a registry of these - they > > currently don't appear to). > > Yes that seems necessary. > > > > > ---- > > From nobody Sun Mar 16 10:16:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8091A02E6; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aeh1x-UhWKg8; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB8B1A01D5; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2GHEv6x023947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:15:02 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/5oCfYPazJm32o_Bz0ag2r8uGb0Y Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:16:10 -0000 On 3/16/2014 7:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: ... > First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others have > replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should acknowledge > that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probablty > one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This use-case > is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be > used? It's a much simpler implementation that's often used only for bootstrapping, e.g., grabbing images to run at boot time. While it's not useful to expect it to remain stop-and-go (window=1), it's equally not useful to expect the performance of FTP/TCP using TFTP. However... > When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change > to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the > case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. AFAIK, that's the primary (or only intended) use of TFTP. I tend to think of this more like the windowing in NFSv3, but then I would have preferred to allow TFTP to allow true pipelining -- which is what NFS added, where each request remains independent and individual request/response failure would be handled by current rules. > That's not to say that adding a window-based flow/congetstion control > could not be done, but in so-doing this would make TFTP into a protocol > that does not operate with an ACK for each segment, That's what allowing pipelining would effectively achieve, and it would leave the rest up to the client side to decide how to manage. That seems simpler to me. Joe and hence you REALLY > DO NEED to pay attention to the design of the transport protocol. ... The > comments raised by Lars and Joe hint at some of these issues that would > need to be solved. The IETF does have transport expertise that could help > with this, but the document doen't actually propose any mechansims. > > Finally, I don't understand why this it is being considered to update a > transport STD document outside of any working group. I think, given the > issues involved, that would need a very clear applicability statement. > > Gorry > > --- > > Examples of other areas where work is needed: > > Please use RFC 2119 laguage to explain how to negotiate the #blocks > between sender or receiver? - usage of RFC 2347 seems not specified. > > I believe TFTP has more than 3 Opcodes! The last I counted it had 5, > increased to 6 with RFC 2347. > > IANA section incomplete. > > Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could > alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest > that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport > behaviour! > > > > > > > > From nobody Sun Mar 16 17:09:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861041A01D2; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fztoo9IwgWrN; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584351A0145; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.erg.abdn.ac.uk (blake.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.30]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 521EC2B4258; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:46:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by www.erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:46:42 -0000 Message-ID: <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:46:42 -0000 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: "Joe Touch" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/fpTdYCU4xIEhIt7ynh7IzNjfn90 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:09:39 -0700 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:46:53 -0000 I've re-read this document, and I am still puzzled by why the IETF is considering a standard for this. Fundamentally this is a simple change. It could be easilly implemented - many of us already have some simple window-based UDP transfer protocol like this that we use as a hack for specific cases where something strange is needed. However, I do not see a use-case where it is wise to standardise this - I'd urge the community to re-think this: First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others have replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should acknowledge that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probablty one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This use-case is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be used? When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. That's not to say that adding a window-based flow/congetstion control could not be done, but in so-doing this would make TFTP into a protocol that does not operate with an ACK for each segment, and hence you REALLY DO NEED to pay attention to the design of the transport protocol. ... The comments raised by Lars and Joe hint at some of these issues that would need to be solved. The IETF does have transport expertise that could help with this, but the document doen't actually propose any mechansims. Finally, I don't understand why this it is being considered to update a transport STD document outside of any working group. I think, given the issues involved, that would need a very clear applicability statement. Gorry --- Examples of other areas where work is needed: Please use RFC 2119 laguage to explain how to negotiate the #blocks between sender or receiver? - usage of RFC 2347 seems not specified. I believe TFTP has more than 3 Opcodes! The last I counted it had 5, increased to 6 with RFC 2347. IANA section incomplete. Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport behaviour! From nobody Sun Mar 16 17:09:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22941A0167; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUpNs4_k2JMK; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7E91A0302; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.erg.abdn.ac.uk (blake.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.30]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3864A2B4258; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:32:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by www.erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:32:23 -0000 Message-ID: <37a25e2df5119de227306f4ef7dd0581.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:32:23 -0000 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: "Joe Touch" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zE3RquGiVVF10L-Yap3lVGV76Ao X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:09:56 -0700 Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:32:35 -0000 Sure, you could do work to fix this, if this is done in the IETF we need at least to pay attention to the possibility it could be used in the wider Internet - and .. many devices already have a basic TCP stack available at boot. Gorry > > On 3/16/2014 7:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: > ... > > First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others > have > > replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should > acknowledge > > that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probablty > > one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This > use-case > > is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be > > used? > > It's a much simpler implementation that's often used only for > bootstrapping, e.g., grabbing images to run at boot time. > > While it's not useful to expect it to remain stop-and-go (window=1), > it's equally not useful to expect the performance of FTP/TCP using TFTP. > > However... > > > When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor > change > > to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the > > case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. > > AFAIK, that's the primary (or only intended) use of TFTP. > > I tend to think of this more like the windowing in NFSv3, but then I > would have preferred to allow TFTP to allow true pipelining -- which is > what NFS added, where each request remains independent and individual > request/response failure would be handled by current rules. > > > That's not to say that adding a window-based flow/congetstion control > > could not be done, but in so-doing this would make TFTP into a protocol > > that does not operate with an ACK for each segment, > > That's what allowing pipelining would effectively achieve, and it would > leave the rest up to the client side to decide how to manage. That seems > simpler to me. > > Joe > > and hence you REALLY > > DO NEED to pay attention to the design of the transport protocol. > ... The > > comments raised by Lars and Joe hint at some of these issues that would > > need to be solved. The IETF does have transport expertise that could > help > > with this, but the document doen't actually propose any mechansims. > > > > Finally, I don't understand why this it is being considered to update a > > transport STD document outside of any working group. I think, given > the > > issues involved, that would need a very clear applicability statement. > > > > Gorry > > > > --- > > > > Examples of other areas where work is needed: > > > > Please use RFC 2119 laguage to explain how to negotiate the #blocks > > between sender or receiver? - usage of RFC 2347 seems not specified. > > > > I believe TFTP has more than 3 Opcodes! The last I counted it had 5, > > increased to 6 with RFC 2347. > > > > IANA section incomplete. > > > > Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could > > alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest > > that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport > > behaviour! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Sun Mar 16 17:10:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3861A02D1; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CiGCkL5MrP1M; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta3.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta3.messagelabs.com [195.245.230.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9570B1A02CF; Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.158.137.99:40198] by server-9.bemta-3.messagelabs.com id A0/A8-30063-67135235; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 05:07:02 +0000 X-Env-Sender: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-13.tower-217.messagelabs.com!1394946421!544682!1 X-Originating-IP: [131.227.200.39] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 6.11.1; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 4430 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2014 05:07:01 -0000 Received: from exht012p.surrey.ac.uk (HELO EXHT012P.surrey.ac.uk) (131.227.200.39) by server-13.tower-217.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Mar 2014 05:07:01 -0000 Received: from EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk ([169.254.1.204]) by EXHT012P.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.200.39]) with mapi; Sun, 16 Mar 2014 05:07:01 +0000 From: To: , , , , Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 05:05:34 +0000 Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: Ac9AaolzQ07bN/I+SIO58/b0mS7A1wAatOJI Message-ID: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334781@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu>,<53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US, en-GB Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-GB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/kNhV18TWWQY7toF6lFnmVLRSfso X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:10:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 05:07:14 -0000 I am uncomfortable with independent stream submissions modifying standards track documents, and getting published as standards track. Lloyd Wood http://about.me/lloydwood ________________________________________ From: tsv-area [tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of joel jaeggli [joelj= a@bogus.com] Sent: 15 March 2014 16:20 To: Joe Touch; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org; Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > Hi, Joel, > > On 3/13/2014 3:22 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I have taken on the AD sponsorship of >> draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt and am looking for some additional >> review before revisiting the subject of and IETF last call. > > FWIW, this ought to be vetted in a broader venue, e.g., TSVWG. I'm not > very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. This is very useful feedback. The process that got this thing from an independent stream submission in iesg conflict review to where we are today is somewhat torturous, that's why I'm asking. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt/ > > A quick check indicates a few disconnects, summarized below. > > Joe > >> Congestion and Error Control >> >> From a congestion control standpoint while the number of blocks in >> a window does not represent a threat, > > The entirety of TCP's congestion control is about managing the window > size; the same is true here. Increasing the window absolutely increases > the potential for congestion and represents a threat. > > The doc includes a number of SHOULDs that are underspecified, e.g., > SHOULD implement a timeout on retransmissions (what value?), and SHOULD > abort (under what conditions?) I sympathize with the authors lack of desire to specify specific values which may be appropriate now but not into the future. That said. I would be happier with examples. (I am aware of some of them) > How are retransmissions handled? Go-back-N is known problematic; SACK > requires a much more complex mechanism. > > The document should also request that IANA register "windowsize" as the > TFTP option string (and IANA should have a registry of these - they > currently don't appear to). Yes that seems necessary. > > ---- > From nobody Mon Mar 17 02:13:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3881A03BA for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 02:12:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MBdiitVOpakn for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 02:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [80.244.248.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C11F1A03C2 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 02:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EB6FA00E1; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:12:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1395047565-15200-15200/11/22; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:12:45 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 10:12:44 +0100 User-Agent: Trojita/v0.3.96-176-g713fcbb; Qt/4.8.4; X11; Linux; Ubuntu 13.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <28cd843d-c859-4150-a3ae-f3b49204adac@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/OJ5bwHInawz_-H_DR_UVHT15IXI Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:12:59 -0000 Please excuse this digression. It seems somewhat relevant to the extension being proposed. On Sunday, March 16, 2014 6:15:02 PM CEST, Joe Touch wrote: > AFAIK, that's the primary (or only intended) use of TFTP. Is TFTP used beyond a LAN? I've never heard of such use. Arnt From nobody Mon Mar 17 07:33:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9B11A0141 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x53_JDBifs_2 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19A41A0361 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.43.134] ([172.56.38.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2HEXCGK019099 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:33:14 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <532707A5.5020603@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:33:09 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , apps-discuss@ietf.org References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> <28cd843d-c859-4150-a3ae-f3b49204adac@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <28cd843d-c859-4150-a3ae-f3b49204adac@gulbrandsen.priv.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LgScaxJ6hSeMbVKD2qaIMeHIp0v4JQAjH" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:33:14 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2GD8QZkzWqylRgSitow8g4w2gy8 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:33:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LgScaxJ6hSeMbVKD2qaIMeHIp0v4JQAjH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/17/14, 2:12 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Please excuse this digression. It seems somewhat relevant to the > extension being proposed. >=20 > On Sunday, March 16, 2014 6:15:02 PM CEST, Joe Touch wrote: >> AFAIK, that's the primary (or only intended) use of TFTP. >=20 > Is TFTP used beyond a LAN? I've never heard of such use. If the question is, is it used on routed networks? Undoubtedly yes, I do/have certainly. If the question is it safe to employ on the general internet? I don't think so and I would acl it off accordingly. > Arnt >=20 > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss >=20 --LgScaxJ6hSeMbVKD2qaIMeHIp0v4JQAjH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMnB6YACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJKjQCfajRAbqPzQR3hFqYDlIuhrjHj mgsAoIFYW7sXlI9JzQKKspeMTjK1NLWE =0CeB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LgScaxJ6hSeMbVKD2qaIMeHIp0v4JQAjH-- From nobody Mon Mar 17 07:43:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AD31A041D; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnpyJF7dgvZF; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22d.google.com (mail-oa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFF31A0417; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id o6so5720403oag.32 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=o2+pWjCLLqW0aP+8c9hVJICe/rRs6i9Y/tyC8qRVosA=; b=spRL1/KPxo5EK/l5JU8J27tnVIrWvCoH4ZScbrnrTBO52EgMJBkJAUShCucuCPPt2t UlTdAA6EoEF6ygOh/TyiNbA+ogrP0A3G5JxxayqYgsNGF3eU7YOMyHHGk1tgEqicFW/O LK0lcwKdDEELqHhmrqxqg2/b6P10f17Nuwf5Le+GPIKycwgeoOyt8WM8zKiiV/nDx3wd 9jh3y+89i9OFXJ2ufVkd+Fu6Z2ajx7dBVBbThgAWbFcBtFaLf26VKh9eSXyC8kA9cwVb 9ubCcoNym7j8nPwnh3BdeVGHFZJJG4QTbDJ8NWDx7gjNqo74lx9Rbbo6ytf8ufX1Ra19 7wkg== X-Received: by 10.182.22.33 with SMTP id a1mr1779909obf.60.1395067366237; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (cpe-76-187-7-89.tx.res.rr.com. [76.187.7.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ec8sm19207879obb.18.2014.03.17.07.42.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:42:43 -0500 From: Spencer Dawkins User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, Joe Touch References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/7B8xwhZ4buYJc2zPH1yiF7mX93o Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:42:57 -0000 I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'm understanding where we are ... On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: > When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change > to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the > case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes with no feedback about path capacity. Is that the way others are understanding the draft? > Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could > alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest > that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport > behaviour! Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you get about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. Is that the way others are understanding the draft? If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? Thanks, Spencer From nobody Mon Mar 17 07:51:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D771A014D; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8qDKcAa39-Pk; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891F31A02EE; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2HEn5Dt011584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53270B61.6050903@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:49:05 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Spencer Dawkins , gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/dv8nGcj0F6NGPngxQWIcNH4lYMQ Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:51:17 -0000 Spencer, All good questions, but IMO the TSVDIR shouldn't be doing this analysis. The authors should, in front of the transport area. Joe On 3/17/2014 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I > am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. > > Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'm > understanding where we are ... > > On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change >> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the >> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. > > If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in > blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can > transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes with > no feedback about path capacity. > > Is that the way others are understanding the draft? > >> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could >> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest >> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport >> behaviour! > > Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you get > about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The > benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. > > Is that the way others are understanding the draft? > > If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be > a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? > > Thanks, > > Spencer From nobody Mon Mar 17 11:19:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DAD1A046F; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:19:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wUCyAeEaYJbJ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8F41A0450; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local ([173.247.205.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2HIJUal020460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:31 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <53273CB2.5000907@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:19:30 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, Joe Touch , Spencer Dawkins References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> <53270B61.6050903@isi.edu> <53273B33.1040504@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <53273B33.1040504@erg.abdn.ac.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ASVoCAAx5BXDBTL1RaAg4bsubCq6aet09" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:32 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/V8EG5Q6q1NgeGP_yoj4zAMr3m4w Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ASVoCAAx5BXDBTL1RaAg4bsubCq6aet09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/17/14, 11:13 AM, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >=20 > On 17/03/2014 14:49, Joe Touch wrote: >> Spencer, >> >> All good questions, but IMO the TSVDIR shouldn't be doing this analysi= s. >> The authors should, in front of the transport area. >> > This needs more than a TSVDIR review. imho I don't really have any intention of subjecting the document or author to an IETF lc that goes down in flames. So review is in fact part of the assumption, but it has to start somewhere. >> Joe >> >> On 3/17/2014 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >>> I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but= I >>> am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. >>> >>> Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if = I'm >>> understanding where we are ... >>> >>> On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >>>> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor >>>> change >>>> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is th= e >>>> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a L= AN. >>> >>> If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in >>> blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender c= an >>> transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes w= ith >>> no feedback about path capacity. >>> > That's what I read. >=20 >>> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >>> >>>> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit cou= ld >>>> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would sugge= st >>>> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transp= ort >>>> behaviour! >>> >>> Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you = get >>> about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The >>> benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16.= >>> >>> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >>> >>> If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would = be >>> a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Spencer >> >=20 > Gorry >=20 --ASVoCAAx5BXDBTL1RaAg4bsubCq6aet09 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMnPLIACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrLCWgCfRutOXlUshz8VfVYGbGVy4Miv 4ocAn3LvH9qiKhvpzagnlX4FcLFttNeu =2of/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ASVoCAAx5BXDBTL1RaAg4bsubCq6aet09-- From nobody Mon Mar 17 11:21:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1771A042F; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:21:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jZqS2y6VbKaA; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B281B1A0430; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.97] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2HIKAVq017876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:20:15 -0700 (PDT) References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> <53270B61.6050903@isi.edu> <53273B33.1040504@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <53273B33.1040504@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <0434002A-7FE0-43CB-A420-3503144601C6@isi.edu> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D167) From: Joe Touch Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:20:10 -0700 To: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Jf2Ok1i8_jJGIkZMqSvkIx8jA4w Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:21:05 -0000 > On Mar 17, 2014, at 11:13 AM, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > >> On 17/03/2014 14:49, Joe Touch wrote: >> Spencer, >> >> All good questions, but IMO the TSVDIR shouldn't be doing this analysis. >> The authors should, in front of the transport area. > This needs more than a TSVDIR review. Right - the authors should defend /explain in a WG and on the public list. Joe > >> Joe >> >>> On 3/17/2014 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >>> I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I >>> am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. >>> >>> Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'm >>> understanding where we are ... >>> >>>> On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >>>> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change >>>> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the >>>> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. >>> >>> If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in >>> blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can >>> transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes with >>> no feedback about path capacity. > That's what I read. > >>> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >>> >>>> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could >>>> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest >>>> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport >>>> behaviour! >>> >>> Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you get >>> about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The >>> benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. >>> >>> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >>> >>> If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be >>> a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Spencer > > Gorry From nobody Mon Mar 17 11:54:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1691A0471; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:54:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQD3iutU7pLn; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0205.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.205]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3C11A0457; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB409.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.898.11; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:54:21 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0898.005; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:54:21 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: joel jaeggli , Joe Touch , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "tsv-area@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: AQHPPwrPy2Yhi1vdYkm7uS/Hw9ZQSZrhC3UAgAFLa4CAA03OYA== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:54:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1ac5f7c73cd64646bccc27ffbed3bfdc@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:ee31::3] x-forefront-prvs: 0153A8321A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(479174003)(377454003)(189002)(24454002)(199002)(224313003)(56776001)(56816005)(87936001)(54316002)(94316002)(86612001)(224303002)(2656002)(93136001)(86362001)(95666003)(94946001)(76482001)(87266001)(92566001)(90146001)(85306002)(50986001)(4396001)(95416001)(47976001)(81816001)(33646001)(83322001)(80976001)(97336001)(83072002)(74706001)(2201001)(81686001)(74316001)(93516002)(46102001)(85852003)(51856001)(2171001)(47736001)(49866001)(97186001)(80022001)(76786001)(76576001)(76796001)(74502001)(47446002)(81542001)(77982001)(79102001)(31966008)(74366001)(74876001)(53806001)(81342001)(20776003)(65816001)(74662001)(63696002)(69226001)(59766001)(54356001)(3826001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB409; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:BDABD88A.9DEE0319.B5F789B0.8EAF948.2010A; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mBlC1J0GYTHhjpP6Es4-XI75PDc Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:54:32 -0000 On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > I'm not very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. +1 Standards track documents ought to be reviewed by some WG. For example, b= ack when I did RFC 2667, it didn't fall into any existing WG, but the AD had it= get reviewed and last called by the most relevant WG that existed. I still believe that= 's the most appropriate thing to do, even for things that are nominally "AD sponsored". -Dave =20 From nobody Mon Mar 17 12:01:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3341A063A; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vkj6wD3z1FSo; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0C21A0545; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2HJ0ax4030911; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:00:36 GMT Received: from 950129200 (13.17.90.92.rev.sfr.net [92.90.17.13]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2HJ0W6P030879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:00:34 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Dave Thaler'" , "'joel jaeggli'" , "'Joe Touch'" , , , "'Martin Stiemerling'" References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <1ac5f7c73cd64646bccc27ffbed3bfdc@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <1ac5f7c73cd64646bccc27ffbed3bfdc@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:00:33 -0000 Message-ID: <291e01cf4213$2e549260$8afdb720$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGcmpuMDvVTMbp6WYZkNTJffVjs1AD3LNE6AfihvggBCaOZYZsrJOWQ Content-language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1017-20572.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--28.755-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--28.755-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: QfHZjzml1E8kobbhievL7+LdprnA5EQRtZN20SHV1TQhvFjBsLEZND9R hDVQ/mzM7pK8rcny/AFwouDsIRL+ENcUNjoF7YuVxvVtA+vAWczBErlOTfHjCqv4Kfxi30eKGwZ ePbu1IMJvaLiMoKYw0jeT288mssTUYTmYMPkC1lVvStnPJCsSDRluk36HDQp7QHJ4ytEFOe6cEZ EBmGIJrmKdHjJ7E0Rnor0as7kqXj81GNNcYTZ3yJ1U1lojafr/QZXZg2I8JabnU40jhQv76qPFj JEFr+olfeZdJ1XsorhCITlsmPfzAAtuKBGekqUpPjKoPgsq7cA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mztwZi6iYqwGVYkPqfzcxtUWC38 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:01:14 -0000 Dave, I agree with you, and yet that is not incompatible with AD Sponsored. "Reviewed and last called by the Foo WG" is not "a product of the Foo WG." We are usually at this point because the Foo WG either doesn't exist or has expressed no enthusiasm to adopt and work on the topic. AD Sponsorship is not, IMHO, contradictory to "reviewed by the IETF community". Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Thaler > Sent: 17 March 2014 18:54 > To: joel jaeggli; Joe Touch; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org; Martin > Stiemerling > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize- > opt-09 > > On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > I'm not very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. > > +1 > > Standards track documents ought to be reviewed by some WG. For example, > back > when I did RFC 2667, it didn't fall into any existing WG, but the AD had it get > reviewed > and last called by the most relevant WG that existed. I still believe that's the > most > appropriate thing to do, even for things that are nominally "AD sponsored". > > -Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Mon Mar 17 12:03:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879AB1A044D; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:03:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4J76GbWLnK0; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2lp0244.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.244]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFE01A0307; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.898.11; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:03:21 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0898.005; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:03:21 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , 'joel jaeggli' , 'Joe Touch' , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "'Martin Stiemerling'" Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: AQHPQhNHjFcQKkHfGEGw4BYsT7QIkZrlos1Q Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:03:21 +0000 Message-ID: <12e6326c497c484fb458e663f34fca07@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <1ac5f7c73cd64646bccc27ffbed3bfdc@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <291e01cf4213$2e549260$8afdb720$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <291e01cf4213$2e549260$8afdb720$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:ee31::3] x-forefront-prvs: 0153A8321A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(24454002)(479174003)(51704005)(199002)(189002)(377454003)(13464003)(74366001)(54356001)(2171001)(65816001)(74316001)(95416001)(87936001)(69226001)(80976001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(83322001)(81686001)(51856001)(80022001)(81542001)(33646001)(56776001)(74706001)(85852003)(54316002)(63696002)(95666003)(77982001)(81342001)(85306002)(83072002)(20776003)(2656002)(87266001)(93516002)(86612001)(53806001)(59766001)(79102001)(94946001)(31966008)(81816001)(76796001)(46102001)(49866001)(76786001)(76576001)(90146001)(56816005)(50986001)(47976001)(47736001)(92566001)(76482001)(2201001)(93136001)(74876001)(97186001)(94316002)(4396001)(74662001)(15975445006)(97336001)(86362001)(47446002)(74502001)(3826001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB412; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:BCA65944.9EEA8132.BDD7B988.A6BD948.2027E; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/CrXYE4YUCP-D5JkmzGGMZSR0j-4 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:03:32 -0000 Yes, Adrian and I are saying the same thing. -Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 12:01 PM > To: Dave Thaler; 'joel jaeggli'; 'Joe Touch'; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv- > area@ietf.org; 'Martin Stiemerling' > Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts- > windowsize-opt-09 >=20 > Dave, >=20 > I agree with you, and yet that is not incompatible with AD Sponsored. > "Reviewed and last called by the Foo WG" is not "a product of the Foo WG.= " >=20 > We are usually at this point because the Foo WG either doesn't exist or h= as > expressed no enthusiasm to adopt and work on the topic. >=20 > AD Sponsorship is not, IMHO, contradictory to "reviewed by the IETF > community". >=20 > Adrian >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Dave Thaler > > Sent: 17 March 2014 18:54 > > To: joel jaeggli; Joe Touch; apps-discuss@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org; > > Martin Stiemerling > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring > > draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize- > > opt-09 > > > > On 3/14/14, 1:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > I'm not very comfortable with AD sponsored standards-track updates. > > > > +1 > > > > Standards track documents ought to be reviewed by some WG. For > example, > > back > > when I did RFC 2667, it didn't fall into any existing WG, but the AD > > had it > get > > reviewed > > and last called by the most relevant WG that existed. I still believe > > that's > the > > most > > appropriate thing to do, even for things that are nominally "AD sponsor= ed". > > > > -Dave > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > apps-discuss mailing list > > apps-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From nobody Mon Mar 17 13:39:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0691A0424 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lrvjD6pDKB66 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BE81A043A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P5JVHJVW68002JR6@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:34:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1395088446; bh=jyoa+yWIlk0PZ0xiRalnSG/mdIz3Tzt/cheIRy7T07A=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=T/ikZBeuURTjRA4Bp7cglttsYfZiRlzF6KB+a/6CvJHb/9LAo35PbNla2ApMNSEFL qLPw6fMloPrB7YXFJqxikDf4uzZSzD+Lnc4B/R/7/kA5R+vZzbHg2R+FTIbLbPFtXh vhtdzCywJdm00zmG2Afw9+/s3sSeIFZA8BExhlt4= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; Format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P5JRGDAQVK00004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01P5JVHG0Q6S00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:50:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 17 Mar 2014 10:12:44 +0100" <28cd843d-c859-4150-a3ae-f3b49204adac@gulbrandsen.priv.no> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5325DC16.2030809@isi.edu> <28cd843d-c859-4150-a3ae-f3b49204adac@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/hi4SqF7mGK7CEuuJOxVNsmt44-4 Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:39:22 -0000 > Please excuse this digression. It seems somewhat relevant to the extension > being proposed. > On Sunday, March 16, 2014 6:15:02 PM CEST, Joe Touch wrote: > > AFAIK, that's the primary (or only intended) use of TFTP. > Is TFTP used beyond a LAN? I've never heard of such use. TFTP is used for things like phones on PBX systems. The extent of that usage is only limited by the security savvy of the people installing those things, which as you might expect, may not be all that great. Ned From nobody Tue Mar 18 08:14:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2121A048D; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kl9WKIqmxkom; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9BE1A03BC; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.43.134] ([172.56.38.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2IFDW1R027336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:13:49 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <53286295.5060303@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:13:25 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Spencer Dawkins , gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, Joe Touch References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="t0p33GfkEOaM3FlRawHxC8wAKg2WiwXXO" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:13:51 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/kfwyY72NRNjsflEWy9JCDEOU00g Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:14:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --t0p33GfkEOaM3FlRawHxC8wAKg2WiwXXO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/17/14, 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I= > am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. >=20 > Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'= m > understanding where we are ... >=20 > On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor chan= ge >> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the >> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN= =2E >=20 > If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in > blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can= > transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes wit= h > no feedback about path capacity. having a value that sufficiently extensible that you don't have to come back and revist it again seems like a sensible premise. I doubt very much that any application leveraging a larger window is not also going to implement rfc 2348 block size option. so 512 byte is probably the wrong assumption Moving from 512 byte blocks to 1428 byte blocks or 8k blocks if you roll that way is effectively a 2.8x or 16x increase in the window size. with zero inter-packet delay (while afaik is not part of this proposal) a 16MB window would be ~3ms at 40Gb/s ethernet rates which sounds totally sensible if appropiate on the face of it. > Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >=20 >> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could= >> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest= >> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transpor= t >> behaviour! >=20 > Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you ge= t > about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The > benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. >=20 > Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >=20 > If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be= > a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Spencer >=20 --t0p33GfkEOaM3FlRawHxC8wAKg2WiwXXO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMoYpUACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrIwJQCdEVwcSCsrY+EPbPekm/8l8QgP TqcAnjW27R0++UpNJ2FDnly8+GpeXCpS =QRu3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --t0p33GfkEOaM3FlRawHxC8wAKg2WiwXXO-- From nobody Tue Mar 18 08:48:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626A11A0484; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:13:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7m9vTSOl3xgO; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA831A02F4; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 5001) id 0A2C52B4594; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:13:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gorry-mac.erg.abdn.ac.uk (gorry-mac.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.5]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1E992B40E7; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:13:07 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <53273B33.1040504@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:13:07 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch , Spencer Dawkins References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> <53270B61.6050903@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <53270B61.6050903@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/LLKYvWk3OygbyTGb5an6NyDvRAo X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:48:54 -0700 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:13:22 -0000 On 17/03/2014 14:49, Joe Touch wrote: > Spencer, > > All good questions, but IMO the TSVDIR shouldn't be doing this analysis. > The authors should, in front of the transport area. > This needs more than a TSVDIR review. > Joe > > On 3/17/2014 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >> I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I >> am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. >> >> Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'm >> understanding where we are ... >> >> On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >>> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change >>> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the >>> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. >> >> If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in >> blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can >> transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes with >> no feedback about path capacity. >> That's what I read. >> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >> >>> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could >>> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest >>> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport >>> behaviour! >> >> Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you get >> about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The >> benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. >> >> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >> >> If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be >> a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Spencer > Gorry From nobody Tue Mar 18 09:14:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AD21A0412; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5b9l5Vjy1xa; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21F11A02F5; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local ([173.247.205.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2IGEGPh027787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:14:17 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:14:16 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:27.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/27.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, Joe Touch References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IRapcjitD6Wj3WMp2amXjFHwnbNid5sDN" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:14:17 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/akcxeIs1TuTikF-ppZ-Qj8i9a9I Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:14:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IRapcjitD6Wj3WMp2amXjFHwnbNid5sDN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/16/14, 7:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >=20 > I've re-read this document, and I am still puzzled by why the IETF is > considering a standard for this. >=20 > Fundamentally this is a simple change. It could be easilly implemented = - > many of us already have some simple window-based UDP transfer protocol > like this that we use as a hack for specific cases where something stra= nge > is needed. On the other hand I'm aware of a least two implementations of tftp with a window scale function. It's maybe in the interests of clients and server implementations to interoperate. > However, I do not see a use-case where it is wise to > standardise this - I'd urge the community to re-think this: >=20 > First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others ha= ve > replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should acknowledg= e > that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probablty= > one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This use-c= ase > is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be > used? I don't really a lot of use cases outside of scoped domains for tftp, I wouldn't use it on the internet at large, it is however widely implemented and relatively ubiquitous with respect to usage. devices need to boot-strap and when they do recourse to an unatheticated to resource demand facility is desirable. --IRapcjitD6Wj3WMp2amXjFHwnbNid5sDN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMocNgACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrIDZwCfc9zXYl+kjcDK6vrEG/3UdVMu DpoAnA0TLAJUzCqSqrkUfIUq25m8h/Ek =vndU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IRapcjitD6Wj3WMp2amXjFHwnbNid5sDN-- From nobody Tue Mar 18 10:26:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3168C1A0714; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZFerNSHjVeV; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FFB51A069E; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.81] (nib.isi.edu [128.9.160.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2IHP8Ye022550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:25:08 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/UoHc_gwzJ8k01dq65MOpzx6iOcQ Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:26:45 -0000 Sorry, all, but as engaging as this discussion is, I really don't think we should be having it on this distro. The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to become a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. I propose that we cease further analysis prior to that. Joe On 3/18/2014 9:14 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 3/16/14, 7:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >> >> I've re-read this document, and I am still puzzled by why the IETF is >> considering a standard for this. >> >> Fundamentally this is a simple change. It could be easilly implemented - >> many of us already have some simple window-based UDP transfer protocol >> like this that we use as a hack for specific cases where something strange >> is needed. > > On the other hand I'm aware of a least two implementations of tftp with > a window scale function. It's maybe in the interests of clients and > server implementations to interoperate. > >> However, I do not see a use-case where it is wise to >> standardise this - I'd urge the community to re-think this: >> >> First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others have >> replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should acknowledge >> that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probablty >> one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This use-case >> is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be >> used? > > I don't really a lot of use cases outside of scoped domains for tftp, I > wouldn't use it on the internet at large, it is however widely > implemented and relatively ubiquitous with respect to usage. devices > need to boot-strap and when they do recourse to an unatheticated to > resource demand facility is desirable. > > > From nobody Tue Mar 18 11:01:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892DA1A0726; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Waq68D6XJAZi; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2671A0453; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-aye.local ([173.247.205.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s2II1BnW028548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:01:11 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <532889E6.5060109@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:01:10 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:28.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/28.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch , gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JSc1pAGDx1EuVqaOaD6w0rKt11Vne0hQk" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/9QbnIBm-Vmx8lZieTDRKAMrJPa8 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:01:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --JSc1pAGDx1EuVqaOaD6w0rKt11Vne0hQk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/18/14, 10:25 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > Sorry, all, but as engaging as this discussion is, I really don't think= > we should be having it on this distro. >=20 > The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to > become a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. I'm happy to take it there. I agreed to take over AD sponsorship from Martin, so I am not inclined, nor I imagine is he (though I will not speak for him) to go through the vehicle of a TSVWG doc. I am clear on the need for improvement/review. > I propose that we cease further analysis prior to that. wfm thanks > Joe >=20 > On 3/18/2014 9:14 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: >> On 3/16/14, 7:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >>> >>> I've re-read this document, and I am still puzzled by why the IETF is= >>> considering a standard for this. >>> >>> Fundamentally this is a simple change. It could be easilly implemente= d - >>> many of us already have some simple window-based UDP transfer protoco= l >>> like this that we use as a hack for specific cases where something >>> strange >>> is needed. >> >> On the other hand I'm aware of a least two implementations of tftp wit= h >> a window scale function. It's maybe in the interests of clients and >> server implementations to interoperate. >> >>> However, I do not see a use-case where it is wise to >>> standardise this - I'd urge the community to re-think this: >>> >>> First, TFTP is an old protocol, and mostly FTP, NFS, SMB, and others >>> have >>> replaced this for Internet use over TCP - at least we should acknowle= dge >>> that using TFTP in the general Internet is NOT RECOMMENDED - probabl= ty >>> one reason why we as a community have not standardised this. This >>> use-case >>> is not clear, why can FTP over TCP (or at least a minimal TCP) not be= >>> used? >> >> I don't really a lot of use cases outside of scoped domains for tftp, = I >> wouldn't use it on the internet at large, it is however widely >> implemented and relatively ubiquitous with respect to usage. devices >> need to boot-strap and when they do recourse to an unatheticated to >> resource demand facility is desirable. >> >> >> >=20 --JSc1pAGDx1EuVqaOaD6w0rKt11Vne0hQk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMoieYACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrLZoACeKybUqIdCN+k+j1li31vd2evn eesAnRQ1+NyPN0lsWpLXEon7llSA52ad =ukTs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JSc1pAGDx1EuVqaOaD6w0rKt11Vne0hQk-- From nobody Tue Mar 18 11:15:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D4F1A03F6; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVrxA1pMtWMd; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1ECA1A0773; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.81] (nib.isi.edu [128.9.160.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2II707Y023493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53288B45.2050903@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:07:01 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> <532889E6.5060109@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <532889E6.5060109@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/UjpgyjZ810Tdu-m2r6BevVvupWE Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:15:03 -0000 On 3/18/2014 11:01 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 3/18/14, 10:25 AM, Joe Touch wrote: >> Sorry, all, but as engaging as this discussion is, I really don't think >> we should be having it on this distro. >> >> The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to >> become a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. > > I'm happy to take it there. I agreed to take over AD sponsorship from > Martin, so I am not inclined, nor I imagine is he (though I will not > speak for him) to go through the vehicle of a TSVWG doc. I am clear on > the need for improvement/review. If this isn't headed to become a WG doc, IMO it's dead in the water. Again, we're talking about a mod to a widely-deployed standards-track protocol. That shouldn't happen via AD sponsorship. Joe From nobody Tue Mar 18 11:21:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A788D1A0743; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8Ik_i3bUt_P; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22c.google.com (mail-ve0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7DF1A077B; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f172.google.com with SMTP id jx11so7604819veb.3 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=MVt2379YF8IW2Wk+I7T/MBTHF63Hl8aOZnAklXPr5eM=; b=dAwtHjTmKufpAu4FsDqKGAJ1nSneebkFNiYAM3aGAe/YLJ5SeFQx+dbaEWSQl4oN8e 7txY1YT5mZpilaFV9UUHuhSsnOGhwVmmIHtYCI1QF6k3V/irWGhwOLHjmlyYIVO1RBA1 H9Ts9hd92sMvlpxHjOzoFmRhD0DKbIJysAR+6mjmEmiseIN37IK1nEWTuZ2gMRz78u4U mQon7ceTmBLi+xpu71E+ZFsyt6BEZVP4ZeXzYPFhSO0WTynLcm37Ip6S45EMxhA6fhan 9QKp/xRUffNmuD5epKvnqx8UlclREwXttdUWnWKyh+/561TTT9xvgqiD5jxHWga7c1MU YlOQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.55.170 with SMTP id t10mr4874981vep.29.1395166727709; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.19.104 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:18:47 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: YCLpz9Hz9nmtGhllfSA662PNSCA Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Joe Touch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ES1holQ5cwPH04hWRdXEi8cB418 Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsv-area@ietf.org, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:21:11 -0000 Just one bit here that Joel has touched on, but that I want to say clearly: > The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to become > a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. 1. It's absolutely right to say that &WG (be that TSVWG or any other) needs to review a document that's being put forth for IETF consensus. 2. It's absolutely right to say that the comments that result from that review need to be addressed. 3. I believe it is *not* right to say that the document cannot go forward unless &WG accepts it as a working group product. If they do, that's very nice. If they reject it because of fundamental flaws that have not been adequately addressed, then loop back to #2. But if they simply don't want it, that isn't a valid reason to stop the document from progressing. I think we're likely in agreement on this, but, as I say, I want to put it out there clearly. Barry From nobody Tue Mar 18 11:28:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7171A0453; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iD7Hiz97hrzS; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919061A0401; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.81] (nib.isi.edu [128.9.160.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2IIOtEq013399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53288F78.7030503@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:24:56 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/j8h8pLoJeKHnuxCQZ947QyuUISY Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsv-area@ietf.org, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:28:10 -0000 On 3/18/2014 11:18 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: > Just one bit here that Joel has touched on, but that I want to say clearly: > >> The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to become >> a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. > > 1. It's absolutely right to say that &WG (be that TSVWG or any other) > needs to review a document that's being put forth for IETF consensus. > > 2. It's absolutely right to say that the comments that result from > that review need to be addressed. > > 3. I believe it is *not* right to say that the document cannot go > forward unless &WG accepts it as a working group product. If they do, > that's very nice. If they reject it because of fundamental flaws that > have not been adequately addressed, then loop back to #2. But if they > simply don't want it, that isn't a valid reason to stop the document > from progressing. Hazard to the Internet? At the least, it would presumably have a very high hurdle for being standards-track. But I don't understand why a protocol extension that would be considered harmful must be published by the RFC Editor. Joe From nobody Tue Mar 18 12:14:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC761A0455; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id osnx5xricKmp; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22a.google.com (mail-qc0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AB61A044C; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id e9so8576980qcy.1 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wqDPN+7tA/aj+zHTWDKkvriiLIRs4M/ctDnlyQby0uQ=; b=syMc+Q0YVyIrjsuVHI8AOTv1WCInddlNWDZ55YC+CLI+msIpeQZB7nvH/K6knvy8RY vSsBdnzd3GEcfH/ALyWIEplLJuvZ7JADIdVH7/Xz8BQWTUCCFy/icgvUGbO+WndZvrTz e+mbtni5lG6VknIUTF2mnroSYbSxaz34DdMY3qmQKwfDxegSMl+q1vvhumVOvHY4IshA Jca8qzeafuZscNXsKInkb4VYxCs/TMSYwzdBXAwdz15nlixxvLU+aKKJi2aO4I6FJJ/7 wOIx2FVgXyKGDeQ0vIZx5cYKV+EUZiTtB0NJWf4JwgdDBbOw+ssBH/k1tGNgrwqkJQdJ t5Bw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.93.77 with SMTP id c71mr35659057qge.53.1395170077239; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.42.136 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:14:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53288F78.7030503@isi.edu> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu> <53288F78.7030503@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:14:37 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aZNG_2a6sEPRCsxj1ia1zYVSzNo Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Joe Touch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/nqA5QmaTD9869WZJK-Zg4l3w2MY Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsv-area@ietf.org, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 19:14:47 -0000 >> 3. I believe it is *not* right to say that the document cannot go >> forward unless &WG accepts it as a working group product. If they do, >> that's very nice. If they reject it because of fundamental flaws that >> have not been adequately addressed, then loop back to #2. But if they >> simply don't want it, that isn't a valid reason to stop the document >> from progressing. > > Hazard to the Internet? Hazard to the Internet would be a fundamental flaw that would have to be addressed, of course. > But I don't understand why a protocol extension that would be considered > harmful must be published by the RFC Editor. Nothing considered harmful. I thought I was clear that those things need to be sorted out. I'm just saying that lack of interest from some particular working group isn't a reason to block publication. Serious flaws, or lack of interest from everyone... that's different. Barry From nobody Wed Mar 19 10:11:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC601A042E; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:11:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2cFwR1jy965O; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B147B1A02F5; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2JHA0Bt014937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5329CF68.80104@isi.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:10:00 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk, barryleiba@computer.org References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu>, <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334792@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334792@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/eoEnKK4hnt8bIvQEq2vkIwXq7Tc Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 17:11:47 -0000 On 3/18/2014 3:01 PM, l.wood@surrey.ac.uk wrote: > Having said that, I think the draft is silly, the appeal was silly, AD > sponsorship is silly. Limited TSVWG resources are better spent elsewhere. +1, but our collective private opinion should not affect whether a WG sees a doc. Joe From nobody Wed Mar 19 10:41:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944161A040E; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vFEo6IANiZ2C; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta5.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta5.messagelabs.com [195.245.231.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C516B1A030F; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.245.231.67:34481] by server-7.bemta-5.messagelabs.com id 37/3A-20531-F42C8235; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:01:51 +0000 X-Env-Sender: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-82.messagelabs.com!1395180111!25353924!1 X-Originating-IP: [131.227.200.43] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 6.11.1; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 8523 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2014 22:01:51 -0000 Received: from exht022p.surrey.ac.uk (HELO EXHT022P.surrey.ac.uk) (131.227.200.43) by server-9.tower-82.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Mar 2014 22:01:51 -0000 Received: from EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk ([169.254.1.204]) by EXHT022P.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.200.43]) with mapi; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:01:50 +0000 From: To: , Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:01:48 +0000 Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 Thread-Index: Ac9C1tc9Yey5MHVgQ16YGIenv3iJ4gAHW9f/ Message-ID: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E6334792@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532870D8.4090106@bogus.com> <53288174.6050209@isi.edu>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-GB Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-GB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/hAvyRPuwpRxXJ3x_2UZoh5WWp14 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:41:41 -0700 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:02:03 -0000 > 3. I believe it is *not* right to say that the document cannot go > forward unless &WG accepts it as a working group product. If they do, > that's very nice. If they reject it because of fundamental flaws that > have not been adequately addressed, then loop back to #2. But if they > simply don't want it, that isn't a valid reason to stop the document > from progressing. If it's a standalone document, publishing without going through a working g= roup is perfectly valid. But this modifies a standards track protocol, and would be published as standards track. The bar is higher. Having said that, I think the draft is silly, the appeal was silly, AD sponsorship is silly. Limited TSVWG resources are better spent elsewhere. Lloyd Wood http://about.me/lloydwood ________________________________________ From: tsv-area [tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Barry Leiba [barryl= eiba@computer.org] Sent: 18 March 2014 18:18 To: Joe Touch Cc: joel jaeggli; tsv-area@ietf.org; apps-discuss@ietf.org; Martin Stiemerl= ing Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize= -opt-09 Just one bit here that Joel has touched on, but that I want to say clearly: > The authors need to make the case to the TSVWG (?) that this needs to bec= ome > a WG doc, and then we can all scrutinize/optimize it in public. 1. It's absolutely right to say that &WG (be that TSVWG or any other) needs to review a document that's being put forth for IETF consensus. 2. It's absolutely right to say that the comments that result from that review need to be addressed. 3. I believe it is *not* right to say that the document cannot go forward unless &WG accepts it as a working group product. If they do, that's very nice. If they reject it because of fundamental flaws that have not been adequately addressed, then loop back to #2. But if they simply don't want it, that isn't a valid reason to stop the document from progressing. I think we're likely in agreement on this, but, as I say, I want to put it out there clearly. Barry From nobody Wed Mar 19 10:44:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FE01A0720; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UiDXy5BkERn1; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1FA1A0701; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 5001) id 504EA2B4594; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:00:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gorry-mac.erg.abdn.ac.uk (gorry-mac.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.5]) by spey.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB5CB2B4028; Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:00:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <53286D99.3040605@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:00:25 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , Spencer Dawkins , Joe Touch References: <53222FC1.7040009@bogus.com> <532367CA.4080807@isi.edu> <53247DCD.40002@bogus.com> <53249F15.7010802@isi.edu> <0f9fb6b8c92609346c3a4111f2c31349.squirrel@www.erg.abdn.ac.uk> <532709E3.70809@gmail.com> <53286295.5060303@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <53286295.5060303@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/1Mx4vUK3iqNelj6I2v8DUmAIZ9A X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:44:28 -0700 Cc: tsv-area@ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Stiemerling Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] AD sponsoring draft-masotta-tftpexts-windowsize-opt-09 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:00:43 -0000 On 18/03/2014 15:13, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 3/17/14, 7:42 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >> I'm doing my best not to express an opinion early in the process, but I >> am reading along. Thanks to all for your help. >> >> Gorry made two points that I'd like to ask about, in order to see if I'm >> understanding where we are ... >> >> On 03/16/2014 09:46 AM, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk wrote: >>> When looked at this before, my take was that this was not a minor change >>> to the capacity sharing properties of tftp. I still think this is the >>> case, and the proposal, as written, is unsuitable for use beyond a LAN. >> >> If I'm understanding correctly, the maximum window size (measured in >> blocks) is 32K, up from 1 block in standard TFTP today, so a sender can >> transmit (at the default blocksize of 512 bytes) about 16 megabytes with >> no feedback about path capacity. > > having a value that sufficiently extensible that you don't have to come > back and revist it again seems like a sensible premise. > > I doubt very much that any application leveraging a larger window is not > also going to implement rfc 2348 block size option. so 512 byte is > probably the wrong assumption > > Moving from 512 byte blocks to 1428 byte blocks or 8k blocks if you roll > that way is effectively a 2.8x or 16x increase in the window size. > > with zero inter-packet delay (while afaik is not part of this proposal) > a 16MB window would be ~3ms at 40Gb/s ethernet rates which sounds > totally sensible if appropiate on the face of it. > That's exactly why this draft would need to provide sound reasoned arguments for the choice of mechanisms for error recovery and congestion control. I don't agree that 40 Gb/s non-congestion controlled traffic with basically no security or retransmission logic is a good thing for the IETF to standardise. >> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >> >>> Aside: I see from the analysis that more than 50% of the benefit could >>> alternatively be achieved using a block size of 1024B, I would suggest >>> that negotiating that wouldn't significantly change any CC or transport >>> behaviour! >> >> Again, if I'm understanding the Proof of Concept text correctly, you get >> about 50 percent of the benefit from using a windowsize of 2. The >> benefit seems to max out with a windowsize of something like 8 to 16. >> >> Is that the way others are understanding the draft? >> >> If that's correct, I'm not understanding why anything like 32K would be >> a reasonable maximum. Can anyone cast some light on that? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Spencer >> > > Gorry From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:12:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462BD1A0788 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G3kJIqzTtzci for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [IPv6:2607:f0d0:3001:aa::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE751A07A1 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5BDD04377; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 14:12:36 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1395252756; bh=y3IyyG/IrZYGVfVDVvHofE1L5tJvQapYEfTUrxhDybw=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Yuuyd+Pg7L0TvfQa6eTZsfby6le/8mKPzsIglj0o1axwzYSvyvO1K+MUJg/wXBosf UtpvTinqr+XDrpFnh4kEOMeezJI0QR4nAHPHn2NRegTpWoAVehgDbF+8U7XrIJxTQj +LCsnfTk0flnslDLuC+zSpXUpBJxlli8kcScfv7c= Received: from scott-latitude-e6320.localnet (static-72-81-252-21.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7AF75D04373; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 14:12:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Kitterman To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 14:12:35 -0400 Message-ID: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.5 (Linux/3.11.0-18-generic; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/mckJAftdDuojaBziIFo-sULaEbw Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:12:48 -0000 On Thursday, March 06, 2014 10:06:11 Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > Given Franck's draft and the SMTP-specific work going on in DANE, it looks > like we're going to want the ability to report things via > Authentication-Results (RFC7001) beyond what it's currently capable of > reporting. Specifically, there's one token in the ABNF that is constrained > to report things about the envelope, headers, body, or local policy issues > only; it can't easily report things about keys, certificates, DANE results, > etc. DANE is doing work specifically on SMTP now. > > It looks like the simplest path forward is a small ABNF change with a > matching IANA action to create a small registry of legal values. Since > this WG processed RFC7001, it seems appropriate to handle this change as > well. Unfortunately, this won't be backward-compatible with RFC7001, so > we're looking at a "v=2" kind of deal. > > Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to provide > comments and reviews on such a work item? I would and I believe I've thought through how we can have our cake and eat it too. If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list of ptypes, but keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that version 2 SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 feature (i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations aren't disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new pytpes without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a version 2 header field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to keep both halves). I'd even write this draft if you want. Scott K From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:56:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C471A0753 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TwwPGi4wCiQQ for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671971A071A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 38378 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2014 18:56:32 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2014 18:56:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5329e860.xn--9vv.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=r4x0G62cOeX0LZj+1RVdrEhoHep0VxAT11FQ3peUWjA=; b=KMeKtCgweg/p1mZ9q2o2KgMnhGJKvzQIQsn+V4MzX2tLqcK6XAY20AYr6PQjSNeGysICWtbvt/OOFzF1DNh2E5SLo7mYm4V6MHo8gBbnzlMBAJ/TSq2QX1Y2HTiGkdPOtx7pHSwZJbStNaPwYzOmHzJtfCjqvyx9YT2c7721sX2IkLBSecoS8756v8OsCFUbsKuzIIPn5DK/lZBudwglPh0dqZKDWfr1qZbQWzRibmw7GpWRvvXCp9sBWH1up9wC DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5329e860.xn--9vv.k1403; bh=r4x0G62cOeX0LZj+1RVdrEhoHep0VxAT11FQ3peUWjA=; b=arMJ+8n30X/v2shXkyOvkpLrlF2wr+72NSaBFKwdlARp6+dGV/EGY6Xx9p8qVl3uSXUw0bB27wAb0YFroxbDvaOAwxqCcDk3OG136iesxI3Y9psINLHffT1mJTnQDII1ua+P98Z194olZfYQHNh5CDvPyb5enadXicmzTLFAlDhR24zuf9B3i/rc/JnDaJwpRs14lpBnCIYFYT/6Ak+LgjN+gu0s6NGnPi3N+pl2X1CgNzgzkgWb3iMOHtcQrftM Date: 19 Mar 2014 18:56:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20140319185609.2814.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/rwk0yISnMw8D2OVMO08NanzCdsk Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:56:43 -0000 >Can I get a show-of-hands of who will be willing and able to provide >comments and reviews on such a work item? Sure. >, there's one token in the ABNF that is constrained >to report things about the envelope, headers, body, or local policy issues >only; it can't easily report things about keys, certificates, DANE results, >etc. DANE is doing work specifically on SMTP now. The other alternative is to loosen the specs and say that if an A-R parser sees a clause it doesn't understand, it should either skip ahead to the next semicolon and try the next clause or give up. How likely is it that there are any existing A-R parsers that will do something actively bad with a ptype it doesn't understand? For maximal backward compatibility the thing adding the A-R header can add two of them, one A-R classic and one with the new stuff. R's, John From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:56:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC0A1A06FD for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6fmNNYiJg27G for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x236.google.com (mail-pb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88761A0779 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ma3so9277748pbc.41 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qDmYSIrgBl+uCH5G3kjOoOUyhINFgcnDYGGSiAHvmd8=; b=Aoz47+temvNM4bxuyR2/T1SAcLHka+/2nDdeaspcLUc4xWuBzcSFPYlDhi2+8IxQdy DYb/tYknzKmurnDNTWo+SOkJXbu4AIIA6CiFTyimtFHpzN54OeJOZ40oiSbXwPL/OTgY rGUQgLISSBX4TpHE20j7zGoTIkcyg5+mJ4MZyOgQ0D1c6KyQE8UC4ZX25q7ugEwBNbk6 4n3NqHKtpjbNyZCPYaxawAXSZmbczPQK6FXtrdpp8GaHjqpHgdvMcyeH5xVI61rt7QpR ofGyabP2EgMyFGcRf1Qbhf5uqDjwiPqdK6tuhaM+JTzDZBlbgq+VXfwAUWzSx0k1THyX Cs+Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.136.131 with SMTP id qa3mr40938289pab.77.1395255402031; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> References: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:56:41 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Scott Kitterman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113376909bf11604f4fa3662 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/r3S-vEQ6zGZ8bq8gIQWvcfOtcJU Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:56:56 -0000 --001a113376909bf11604f4fa3662 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Scott Kitterman wrote: > If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list of ptypes, > but > keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that version 2 > SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 feature > (i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations aren't > disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new pytpes > without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a version 2 > header > field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to keep both > halves). > I'm not sure we can use a SHOULD in this way, but otherwise we certainly could encourage implementers to do what you're saying. Thanks for the suggestion. -MSK --001a113376909bf11604f4fa3662 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Scott Kitterman <scot= t@kitterman.com> wrote:
If we make a version 2 that has an IANA regi= stry bounded list of ptypes, but
keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that = version 2
SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 feature=
(i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations aren'= t
disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new pytpes
without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a version 2 hea= der
field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to keep both<= br> halves).

I'm not sure we can use a = SHOULD in this way, but otherwise we certainly could encourage implementers= to do what you're saying.=A0 Thanks for the suggestion.

-MSK
--001a113376909bf11604f4fa3662-- From nobody Wed Mar 19 23:06:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACEDA1A08A1 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 23:06:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.001 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FUR-F5Ny28rY for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc2-s1.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s1.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1772E1A0336 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W81 ([65.55.90.71]) by snt0-omc2-s1.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 19 Mar 2014 23:06:00 -0700 X-TMN: [HY5GIlpvgKsBu+VePljPYdpugAma+uu2] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_5991354b-c834-47e7-b845-4579c9161e84_" From: Brian Aberle To: Bill Mills , "superuser@gmail.com" , "hsantos@isdg.net" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 00:05:59 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2014 06:06:00.0277 (UTC) FILETIME=[77839850:01CF4402] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/q5m9JDmun3EqQIhplhUlqXeW1UM Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 06:06:11 -0000 --_5991354b-c834-47e7-b845-4579c9161e84_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello World=2C =20 There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had conc= eptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because it is handle= d by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes the special keywor= d attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first attribute (because that i= s the only token we have parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID= " can be used to obtain the memory location (or application layer object in= stances) that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory cop= y into a tree like structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditio= nal "memory copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary = structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the toke= nizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX t= hat avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token ty= pe via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to getToken(toke= n *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. Data that SAX would p= ush via too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands pop's =20 Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it could= equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is a= ware of?) There is no other way to implement "the protocol". I have gone = to much effort to try to communicate this clearly=2C and developed a simple= little example that breaks it all down into numbers that you can see and u= nderstand. The examples build on Linux and Windows=2C=20 =20 Polished Source: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =20 SO Folks=2C=20 =20 I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about this. Am = I in the right place? =20 Brian Aberle ___________________________________________________________________________= __ =20 =20 >On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C wrote: > >Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C an= d not us? =20 =20 =20 > On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos wrote: >=20 > I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to=20 > document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of=20 > "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of=20 > interest. >=20 > I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to=20 > include application level recommended design=2C implementation and=20 > deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard"=20 > and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of=20 > communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a=20 > "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=20 > increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data"=20 > methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle wrote: Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org EAGAIN errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF =20 On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: Hi world=2CIt's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took th= e time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out fo= r that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .c= om aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all this I= nternet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed = by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock = fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C= or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. = I put together a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for = not supplying this direct link in my first posting:https://onedrive.live.co= m/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfi= le%2c.zipWorld - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Int= ernet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in= HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C A= dmins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.cod= eproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation The OLD question was "Should we h= ave an RFC for this?"The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Intern= et Draft?" Is that necessary? to get the attention=0A= of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who sai= d that it could be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it = would an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume= a bit. World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the= numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in = a cock fight id put all my money on 777. From: xml4ietf@live.comTo: apps-d= iscuss@ietf.orgSubject: RFC for XMLObject ParsingDate: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 1= 3:02:40 -0700=0A= =0A= =0A= Hello World=2CI am seeking community feedback regarding an official alterna= tive to SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show perfor= mance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There ar= e other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented De= sign" in the application layer. This issue in discussion here before the c= ommunity is: Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't a= ll want to keep inventing the wheel. The concept is=0A= simple. It is "XML Serialization".XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to in= vent new words=2C but we must also note that "Serialization" includes neith= er Keyed XML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't= need fancy things that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an ex= ample using CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS proj= ect). This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thr= ead: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 = Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Bria= n Aberle I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C wh= ere we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the ques= tion. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.co= deproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable = feedback in the public forum at the bottom of that article over the past de= cade++=3B The roughness of the=0A= draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished= and refined all encompassing open source implementation.I had developed/co= -developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. That is rat= her simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed by the "Yet Anoth= er" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization" is perhaps slight= ly more complex in implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object= Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more comple= x implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two public t= hreads over the past decade.Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to p= revent us all from re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify= a need for it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) b= ut collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for = this? That is the question. World=2C what do you think? = =20 _______________________________________________apps-discuss mailing listapp= s-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss = --_5991354b-c834-47e7-b845-4579c9161e84_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello World=2C
 =3B
Th= ere was confusion about this being "A Protocol". =3B Initially=2C I had= conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because it = =3Bis handled =3Bby the XML tokenizer itself. =3B The tokenizer&nbs= p=3Brecognizes the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as th= e first attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out yet in= that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory locatio= n (or application layer object instances) that the XML will parse directly = into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like structure. =3B It's= OVER =3Btwice as =3Bfast as the more traditional "memory copy desi= gn" naturally because =3Bthe iterations to the temporary structure are = eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses nei= ther SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX that avoids pus= hing a variable number of arguments depending on the token type via the SAX= calls. =3B The non-SAX design =3Bonly makes calls to getToken(toke= n *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. =3B Data that SAX = would push via too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands = pop's
 =3B
Since =3Bthis new thing =3Bhas a =3Brequir= ement of an attribute named "oid" it could equally conceptually be a protoc= ol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is aware of?) =3B =3BThere is= no other way to implement "the protocol". =3B I have gone to much effo= rt to try to communicate this clearly=2C and developed a simple little exam= ple that breaks it all down into numbers that you can see and understand.&n= bsp=3B The examples build on Linux and Windows=2C
 =3B
Polished = Source:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir= ?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip
Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source)= technology
http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
&nbs= p=3B
SO Folks=2C
 =3B
I want to know what some smart internet= savvy people think about this. =3B Am I in the right place?
 = =3B
Brian Aberle
____________________________________________________= _________________________
 =3B
 =3B
>=3BOn Mon=2C Mar 3= =2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C<=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com>=3B wrote:
= >=3B
>=3BAren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purvie= w of the W3C and not us?
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
>=3B On T= ue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C =3BHector Santos<=3Bhsantos@isdg.net>=3B =3Bwrote:
>=3B >=3B I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to =
>=3B document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of =
>=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all siz= es of
>=3B interest.
>=3B
>=3B I personally believe the IE= TF should leverage this need and begin to
>=3B include application le= vel recommended design=2C implementation and
>=3B deployment methods = proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard"
>=3B and these days= =2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
>=3B communications= =2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a
>=3B "client/serv= er" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The
>=3B increased s= peeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data"
>=3B meth= ods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol.

<= div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra">
Tue=2C 4 Mar 201= 4 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wro= te:
 =3B
Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar = 2014 17:21:36 -0800
From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
Subject: Re: [apps-dis= cuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
EAGAIN
errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF

 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 = =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
On Monday=2C Marc= h 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrote:
Hi world=2C
It's me agai= n. =3B =3BI'll just be honest here. =3B Ive never took the time= in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that= . =3B Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? = =3B =3BAll .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is= where all this Internet stuff came from. =3B Now I know a forum of Pea= cock's is not =3Bimpressed by another colorful cool guy. We have modera= tors because we know that cock fighting is real. =3B =3BI don't kno= w if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just= didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. =3B I put together a very c= omplete example and implementation. =3B Forgive me for not supplying th= is direct link in my first posting:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!92= 3&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would it be helpful if I put all this = together into an Internet Draft to obtain =3Bfeedback? =3B That is = the new question. This =3Boverview in HTML is rough and rogue and was n= ot intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for pro= grammers using this stuff. =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
 =3B
The =3BOLD question =3Bwas "Should = we have an RFC for this?"
The NEW question is "Should thi= s be put into an Internet Draft?" =3B Is that necessary? to get the att= ention=0A= of =3Bcocks that squawk in this spot? I asked the =3Bapps-discuss = admins =3Bwho said that it =3Bcould be equally as effective to get = good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. =3B I believe them= =2C so I turned up the color volume a bit.
 =3B
World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? =3B= Look at the numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. =3B If numb= ers were to get in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
 =3B
 =3B
From: xml4ietf@live.com
To= : apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsin= g
Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700

=0A= =0A= =0A=
Hello World= =2C

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to = SAX and DOM. =3B I have put together several examples that show perform= ance numbers which alone justify =3Bthis alternative to SAX or DOM.&nbs= p=3B There are other reasons as well=2C primarily =3B- the argument for= "Object Oriented Design" in =3Bthe application layer. =3B This iss= ue in discussion here =3Bbefore the community is: Do we want an RFC for= this? =3B Maybe not. =3B Maybe so. =3B We don't all want to ke= ep inventing the wheel. =3B The concept is=0A= simple. =3B It is "XML Serialization".
= XMLObject Parsing? =3B We don't need to invent n= ew words=2C but we must also note that "Serialization" =3Bincludes neit= her =3BKeyed =3BXML Updates nor Object Instance Reference counting.=  =3B We also don't need fancy things that we just don't =3Bneed=2C&= nbsp=3Bhowever I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this(a= nd we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). =3B This =3Bconcept was i= dentified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: =3B http://www.artima.c= om/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
 =3B =3B = =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B Most recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle =3B =3B =3B
I recommend =3Bthat =3Bthis thread =3Bbe continuation from that one=2C where we resol= ve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) =3B That is the question.= I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2=  =3BI ha= ve received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of tha= t article over the past decade++=3B =3B The roughness of the=0A= draft HTML doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished= and refined all encompassing open source implementation.
I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Par= sers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. =3B That is rather simple st= uff in terms of implementation - fact =3Bbacked by the "Yet Another" fa= ctor in available XML Parsers. =3B "XML Serialization" is perhaps = =3Bslightly more complex in implementation. =3B =3BWe need to use t= he new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to descri= be the =3Beven more complex implementation =3Bwhich addresses the n= eeds raised in =3Bthe above two public threads over the past decade.
= Since the very purpose = of =3BIETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel wh= en we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each =3Bof us would&n= bsp=3Bcreate our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would = =3Broll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? =3B That is = the question.
 =3B
World=2C what do= you think?
 =3B
=
=

_____________________________= __________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/apps-discuss


<= /div> = --_5991354b-c834-47e7-b845-4579c9161e84_-- From nobody Thu Mar 20 05:07:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0F41A06C3 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 05:07:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hKk079Lui8DD for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 05:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nrcan.gc.ca (s-bsc-edge1.nrcan.gc.ca [132.156.238.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61D71A04F1 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 05:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from S-BSC-CAS1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca (132.156.238.11) by S-BSC-EDGE1.nrcan.gc.ca (132.156.238.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 08:07:00 -0400 Received: from S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca ([169.254.1.123]) by S-BSC-CAS1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca ([fe80::a1cd:5722:74ed:d1fd%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 08:07:00 -0400 From: "Rushforth, Peter" To: Brian Aberle , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing Thread-Index: AQHPM/biqy8ObeHY6EC+PMDIFkIqOJrQIY0AgABaggCAGWP+gIAAIRtg Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 Message-ID: <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> References: , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [132.156.238.22] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6BSBSCMBX1nrnnrca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/IoKDxTd5L__M5uyTkAwbmdyQQ3A Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:07:23 -0000 --_000_1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6BSBSCMBX1nrnnrca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned), xml-dev= also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml, who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally than = here. Cheers, Peter Rushforth From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bria= n Aberle Sent: March 20, 2014 02:06 To: Bill Mills; superuser@gmail.com; hsantos@isdg.net; apps-discuss@ietf.or= g Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing Hello World, There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially, I had concep= tually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because it is handled = by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes the special keyword = attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first attribute (because that is = the only token we have parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" = can be used to obtain the memory location (or application layer object inst= ances) that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory copy = into a tree like structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditiona= l "memory copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary st= ructure are eliminated, it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenize= r uses neither SAX nor DOM, but a more efficient alternative to SAX that av= oids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token type via= the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to getToken(token *p) = to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. Data that SAX would push vi= a too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands pop's Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it could= equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is a= ware of?) There is no other way to implement "the protocol". I have gone = to much effort to try to communicate this clearly, and developed a simple l= ittle example that breaks it all down into numbers that you can see and und= erstand. The examples build on Linux and Windows, Polished Source: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation SO Folks, I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about this. Am = I in the right place? Brian Aberle ___________________________________________________________________________= __ >On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM,> wrote: > >Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C an= d not us? > On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11, Hector Santos> wrote: > > I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to > document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of > "broad" industry and peer review, more importantly for all sizes of > interest. > > I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to > include application level recommended design, implementation and > deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" > and these days, we have so many argumentations and levels of > communications, that yes, today XML is highly considered as a > "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The > increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" > methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000, Brian Aberle > wrote: ________________________________ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing To: xml4ietf@live.com; apps-discuss@ietf.org EAGAIN errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF On Monday, March 3, 2014 11:57 AM, Brian Aberle wrote: Hi world, It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my wh= ole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't = this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this i= s about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet stuff cam= e from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is not impressed by another colorf= ul cool guy. We have moderators because we know that cock fighting is real.= I don't know if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or are too busy, may= be just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know. I put together a very com= plete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct= link in my first posting: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML is = rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and Ch= iefs, but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Arti= cles/37850/XMLFoundation The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that n= ecessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked t= he apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to ge= t good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft. I believe them, so = I turned up the color volume a bit. World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything? Look at the numbers in the = example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock fight id = put all my money on 777. ________________________________ From: xml4ietf@live.com To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 Hello World, I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX an= d DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numbers = which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other reason= s as well, primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the app= lication layer. This issue in discussion here before the community is: Do = we want an RFC for this? Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep = inventing the wheel. The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words, but we must also not= e that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object Instan= ce Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just don't = need, however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this(an= d we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identified quick= ly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.= jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721 Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberl= e I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one, where we resolv= e to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the question. I have = prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproject.com= /Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedback in t= he public forum at the bottom of that article over the past decade++; The = roughness of the draft HTML doc describing this stuff, should not reflect o= n the polished and refined all encompassing open source implementation. I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML= 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed= by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization"= is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use the ne= w word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe th= e even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in the = above two public threads over the past decade. Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-invent= ing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it, (each of us = would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would roll = nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the question. World, what do you think? _______________________________________________ apps-discuss mailing list apps-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --_000_1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6BSBSCMBX1nrnnrca_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Brian,

 <= /p>

Although they can be a li= ttle snooty at times (you've been warned), xml-dev also has lots of smart p= eople who know lots about xml,

who will likely also have= an opinion although perhaps more informally than here.

 <= /p>

Cheers,=

Peter Rushforth

 <= /p>

From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Aberle
Sent: March 20, 2014 02:06
To: Bill Mills; superuser@gmail.com; hsantos@isdg.net; apps-discuss@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing

 

Hello World,
 
There was confusion about this being "A Protocol".  Initiall= y, I had conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because= it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself.  The tokenizer&n= bsp;recognizes the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it app= ears as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out = yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain th= e memory location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will= parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like structure.  It's OVER twice as fast a= s the more traditional "memory copy design" naturally because&nbs= p;the iterations to the temporary structure are eliminated, it goes beyond = 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM, but a more efficient alternative to SAX that avoids pushing a variable num= ber of arguments depending on the token type via the SAX calls.  The n= on-SAX design only makes calls to getToken(token *p) to pull the data = over a 1 argument call stack.  Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands= pop's
 
Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named= "oid" it could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol th= at the XML tokenizer is aware of?)  There is no other way to impl= ement "the protocol".  I have gone to much effort to try to = communicate this clearly, and developed a simple little example that breaks it all dow= n into numbers that you can see and understand.  The examples build on= Linux and Windows,
 
Polished Source:
htt= ps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AA= nvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology
http://= www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
 
SO Folks,
 
I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about this. = ; Am I in the right place?
 
Brian Aberle
___________________________________________________________________________= __
 
 
>On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM,<superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C= and not us?
 
 
 
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11, Hector Santos<hsantos@isdg.net> wrote:

>
> I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to > document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of
> "broad" industry and peer review, more importantly for all s= izes of
> interest.
>
> I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to <= br> > include application level recommended design, implementation and
> deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standar= d"
> and these days, we have so many argumentations and levels of
> communications, that yes, today XML is highly considered as a
> "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired"= protocol. The
> increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "= data"
> methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol.<= /o:p>

Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000, Brian Aberle <xml4ietf@live.com&g= t; wrote:
 

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800
From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
To: xml4ietf@live.com; apps-discus= s@ietf.org

EAGAIN

errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On= Monday, March 3, 2014 11:57 AM, Brian Aberle <xml4ietf@live.com> wro= te:

Hi world,
It's me again.  I'll just be honest here.  Ive never took th= e time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out fo= r that.  Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it?&nb= sp; All .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all this Internet stuff came from.  Now I know a forum = of Peacock's is not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have mo= derators because we know that cock fighting is real.  I don't kno= w if ya'll are shy, just not real chatty, or are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the new guy, I don't know.  I put toge= ther a very complete example and implementation.  Forgive me for not s= upplying this direct link in my first posting:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey= =3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip

World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain feedback?  That is the new question. This overv= iew in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus, Bosses,= Admins, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLF= oundation
 
The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?"<= br> The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?"&= nbsp; Is that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in = this spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it = could be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an Internet Draft.  I believe them, so I turned up the color volume a= bit.
 
World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything?  Look at the numbers in= the example program ExIndexObjects.  If numbers were to get in a cock= fight id put all my money on 777.
 
 

From: xml4ietf@live.com
To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700

Hello World,

I am seeking comm= unity feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM.  I ha= ve put together several examples that show performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM.  There are o= ther reasons as well, primarily - the argument for "Object Orient= ed Design" in the application layer.  This issue in discussi= on here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this?  May= be not.  Maybe so.  We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel.&= nbsp; The concept is simple.  It is "XML Serialization".

XMLObject Parsing= ?  We don't need to invent new words, but we must also note that "= ;Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor = Object Instance Reference counting.  We also don't need fancy things that we just don= 't need, however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does= need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project).  This conce= pt was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread:  http://www.artima.com/forums/flat= .jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721=

&= nbsp;         Most recent reply: Feb 12, 2010 12:43= AM by Brian Aberle   <= span style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";colo= r:black">

I= recommend that this thread be continuation f= rom that one, where we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?)  That is the qu= estion. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850= /XMLFoundation-2 I have received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of = that article over the past decade++;  The roughness of the dra= ft HTML doc describing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and r= efined all encompassing open source implementation.

I had developed/c= o-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0.  That = is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers.  &quo= t;XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in implemen= tation.  We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing&quo= t; or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the = even more complex implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two public threads over the p= ast decade.

Since the very pu= rpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the whee= l when we collectively can identify a need for it, (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would=  roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this?  That is= the question.
 
World, what do you think?

 

 

_______________= ________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

 

--_000_1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6BSBSCMBX1nrnnrca_-- From nobody Thu Mar 20 10:56:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7483F1A0743 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yT79h2SFVGuF for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A4F1A074D for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:56:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=853; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1395338197; x=1396547797; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=XSAAuZYAUgf+E0HDJHL4ne30G+mTm0Fxjk2HChLAbw0=; b=C3f74F2AgVYuM9R/sq1juigUk72elu59/dn4EDQsb4Tn2n2iTa3wbVb1 bX8IygiEAAxVxePGhdnsZEqmk6sEzP5ys+JKRtFgtkeF2sOq9T/MvpF9C 2rmhxKMAdj8ATAZ6WFh5Jc/+8aJTrIiPkSAUb9eEiLd7ANglt5pNR1E1R M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgIFAIMqK1OtJXHA/2dsb2JhbABZgwY7V8JRgRoWdIIsbgYXAYEAJwQTCQuHZAENnXWxaxeOFAEBUYQ9BIkajy2SMIMtgXI5 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,696,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="29057770" Received: from rcdn-core2-5.cisco.com ([173.37.113.192]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Mar 2014 17:56:36 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com [173.36.12.85]) by rcdn-core2-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2KHuaIY005718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:56:36 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x08.cisco.com ([169.254.3.148]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:56:36 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: apps input on AEON Thread-Index: AQHPRGW8JAwS9+0nNUmWpeSxBuyK/Q== Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:56:35 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [171.68.20.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_nGcrrZnE5mcqgb6jK6TVqwDxik Subject: [apps-discuss] apps input on AEON X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:56:47 -0000 Hi, I=B9d like to make this group aware of the Application Enabled Open Networking (AEON) work going on within the Transport Area of the IETF. We are in the early stages and do not yet have a working group. We are using the following site page instead: https://sites.google.com/site/aeonsignalling/home Please refer to it to get an overview of AEON, info on the mailing list, etc. At IETF 89, we held a side meeting: Announcement:=20 https://sites.google.com/site/aeonsignalling/home/upcoming-meetings/untitle dpost Minutes: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/aeon/current/msg00025.html An action item from the meeting was to better engage the application developer community. I hope this group can help with this. Please have a look and share your thoughts on the AEON list (aeon@ietf.org). Best Regards, Charles =20 From nobody Thu Mar 20 12:28:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8707B1A073B; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:28:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JeJ5lPgY7Ulr; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6E81A0754; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.2.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140320192820.3740.79969.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:28:20 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/n8Gky9krQJqx0LZ5leOQooaY_xc Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:28:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field and SMTP Service Extension Authors : William J. Mills Murray S. Kucherawy Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2014-03-20 Abstract: This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receivers the point in time when the sender last confirmed the ownership of the target mailbox. This can be used to detect changes of mailbox ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong party. The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated messages that might contain sensitive information, though it may also be useful in other applications. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Mar 20 12:38:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4EF1A07BF for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FN7kv3JSAvIb for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A221A077C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id uo5so1390198pbc.24 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=YQ6IREROij88FCx9X9D+VLKoCRKBHMJCQfo/da2s/Gs=; b=u9WaCEgNxyD9heoLJq0vlk2by+jHbFGBHUxCsDduxgeq+X9lt03Z8asKqwTtveUFLH NzMKMcU2ZXV1NJNni5cgkbsGD4PIFCu5mp7em5yDYbXOhtlKpxuLqs510R4CqlxpMMz/ U/fFAfQR/2xycqrSLEPRBqkXTBgEfBo+BWQk0MEpMfVorw7JB/ym+/6ooANjlBQZLNBZ Yl2khLiF37bV67vyfoXk1PaITwyoqAYanCJmAzYxsxME/MlXPW363BB2znOX4T126SHg BKr/+/vpzvikzoD/enkGuAA9pEYHXeD0XV0h5WifUsSjP5xqJmogliDt5mTTe31vP6Hn ZBlw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.194.65 with SMTP id hu1mr26939945pbc.158.1395344293073; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.220.102 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140320192820.3740.79969.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20140320192820.3740.79969.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:38:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b15a959ed97d704f50ee880 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/M877ysbx8NB8aaIq7IA2oY9F6J4 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:38:24 -0000 --047d7b15a959ed97d704f50ee880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 12:28 PM, wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working > Group of the IETF. > > Title : The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field > and SMTP Service Extension > Authors : William J. Mills > Murray S. Kucherawy > Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-08.txt > Pages : 22 > Date : 2014-03-20 > > Abstract: > This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer > Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- > Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receivers > the point in time when the sender last confirmed the ownership of the > target mailbox. This can be used to detect changes of mailbox > ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong > party. > > The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated > messages that might contain sensitive information, though it may also > be useful in other applications. > A fairly minor update in response to reviews by IANA and SecDir. -MSK --047d7b15a959ed97d704f50ee880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 12:28 PM, <<= a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-draft= s@ietf.org> wrote:
A New Internet-Draft is available from the o= n-line Internet-Drafts directories.
=A0This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working= Group of the IETF.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : The Require-Recipient-Valid-Sin= ce Header Field and SMTP Service Extension
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Authors =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : William J. Mills
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Murray S. Kucherawy
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-fi= eld-08.txt
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 22
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2014-03-20

Abstract:
=A0 =A0This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer
=A0 =A0Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- =A0 =A0Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receiver= s
=A0 =A0the point in time when the sender last confirmed the ownership of th= e
=A0 =A0target mailbox. =A0This can be used to detect changes of mailbox
=A0 =A0ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong =A0 =A0party.

=A0 =A0The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated =A0 =A0messages that might contain sensitive information, though it may als= o
=A0 =A0be useful in other applications.

A fairly minor update in response to reviews by IANA and SecDir.

-M= SK
--047d7b15a959ed97d704f50ee880-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 05:09:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6005A1A01DF for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 05:09:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.568 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 864SBS1Pl9gQ for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 05:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537C61A01DE for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 05:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=beta; t=1395662978; bh=25FWdr/LzdJUCD9Hr8wX11EGTFo7QmNmTiqAgZTFjG0=; l=1052; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=I+YKoy8Cfr4vmYpKg4MD0SM9k//M8d6gp28kaYi1Zp6vaJ0UUfcVpfSwusJ4JMVC8 jaekbQXHhqIdj9asln4MM51T49ndBL4wU7zHNTiZnxW5KTy6S751/HaKax/By1Zj0o dl/raCrI415VBFYfkL+i59QP8vmD/eeqCBRUB564= Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.88] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.88]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:09:37 +0100 id 00000000005DC039.0000000053302081.00000A49 Message-ID: <53302081.5030606@tana.it> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:09:37 +0100 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131103 Icedove/17.0.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org References: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> In-Reply-To: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Y8kOoaMd870DT_AJqzjM_YDhQfc Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:09:42 -0000 On Wed 19/Mar/2014 19:12:35 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: > > If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list of ptypes, but > keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that version 2 > SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 feature > (i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations aren't > disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new pytpes > without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a version 2 header > field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to keep both > halves). I don't understand to whom and for what it would be useful to know the exact version number. John's suggestion to skip stanzas with unknown ptypes looks more practical. A record's version can still be derived by analyzing what ptypes are actually present there. > I'd even write this draft if you want. It'd be enough to have Franck's draft relax the ptype: It is already marked up as . Ale From nobody Mon Mar 24 06:35:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD061A01BC for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 06:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKkRLV2qN7Ja for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 06:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc2-s23.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc2-s23.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F281A01F6 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 06:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W20 ([65.55.90.72]) by snt0-omc2-s23.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 24 Mar 2014 06:35:20 -0700 X-TMN: [ZDlHs62IUuChRRAIykJyRTq9WP3ZCthQ] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_70a3c38c-45a8-49be-8f2e-beb354caa6ad_" From: Brian Aberle To: "Rushforth, Peter" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:35:20 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2014 13:35:20.0253 (UTC) FILETIME=[E69076D0:01CF4765] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/PrLncJDIXTwRoTEEDwMlnZ9orYE Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:35:26 -0000 --_70a3c38c-45a8-49be-8f2e-beb354caa6ad_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter=2C =20 As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for the warning.= IAM XMLBoss@live.com on that thread. You IETF folks are not chatty at al= l compared to them. Yesterday was all about 'RFC for XML Object Parsing'. = I got some good feedback and got closer toward an official answer to what = this concept is (Protocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showe= d up with polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation= here: http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation and no summa= ry or even clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years of = work. I will put together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive Summary' / 'In= ternet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community consensus on the var= ious views of the basic concept which must define the definition. I will r= e-post the beginning of this draft summary here (followed by a recap of thi= s thread here): =20 Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this: __________________ =20 Hello World=2C =20 I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong here. I= wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 and I wrote my= own XSLT - but I don't claim to know it all about XML even though folks wi= th lesser study than me claim to know all about XML. Maybe someone here ca= n intelligently comment on this: =20 Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a set of commun= ication rules. When two parties agree on the specific use of a generic mark= up language like XML=2C they have agreed on a protocol. Is everyone with m= e so far? With this 'definition' of a protocol=2C your XML parser should b= e 'unaware' of any specific protocol as it deals with the general aspects o= f XML. =20 I propose adding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community feedbac= k about it. It would work like this: =20 =20 The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appea= rs as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed ou= t yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory= location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will parse d= irectly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree or DOM structure. T= his is not the syntax that my implementation uses but seems to convey the c= oncept very well () =20 It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" natura= lly because the iterations to the temporary structure are eliminated=2C it = goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM= =2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX that avoids pushing a variable = number of arguments depending on the token type via the SAX calls. The non= -SAX design only makes calls to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a = 1 argument call stack. Data that SAX would push via too many argument that= compile down to needless push's ands pop's. This implementation is about = 3 times faster than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it t= he most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml in= tegration. =20 The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once clearly und= erstood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a protocol. B) an= application implementation C) an extension to XML along a similar though= t that added ETag into HTTP 1.1 =20 An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that there is= a second keyword used with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword used=2C= it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's "If-Modified-Since". Thi= s HTTP analogy may help some with the conceptual summary of what we are att= empting to summarize. Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it could equ= ally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is aware= of?) There is no other way to implement "the protocol". If we call it = B) an implementation. Now we have two XML's a fast one and a slow one. A = new one and an old one. The new XML is 100% backwards compatible. Again -= this is all a matter of view. The important thing is to understand the co= ncept. =20 1 ..... Normally we would call "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this case. I= t's a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an attribute named "oi= d" contains any upper case or the attribute is not in the 1st position - th= en it IS data - otherwise it is a key. =20 The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBMS index can be keyed over mu= ltiple columns - likewise the "oid" can be a concatenation of several colum= ns that make it a unique Object ID. An application using an ConfigFile.xml= would most likely never use an "oid". It's not designed to be used in all= applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless they are indexed in by a DBMS = would not be candidate for "oid" use. Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "foos". Suppose that list is very ve= ry long. 1 Terabyte. Suppose that you get updated XML source of that list e= very 15 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some foos() ha= ve been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire update=2C and make= no new memory allocations except of the new "foo's". The XML Parser never= needs to allocate any memory storage if it can make a connection between t= he cached instance and an "oid". =20 Polished Source: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technology http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =20 =20 Brian Aberle __________________ =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi Brian=2C=0A= =0A= Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C xml-d= ev also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C=0A= who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally than = here.=0A= =0A= =0A= Cheers=2C=0A= Peter Rushforth=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]=0A= On Behalf Of Brian Aberle =0A= Sent: March 20=2C 2014 02:06 =0A= To: Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B apps-discuss@i= etf.org =0A= Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hello World=2C =0A= =20 =0A= There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had conc= eptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because it is handle= d by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes the special keywor= d attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears=0A= as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out = yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory l= ocation (or application layer object instances) that the XML will parse dir= ectly into with no temporary memory=0A= copy into a tree like structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more trad= itional "memory copy design" naturally because the iterations to the tempor= ary structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the = tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C=0A= but a more efficient alternative to SAX that avoids pushing a variable num= ber of arguments depending on the token type via the SAX calls. The non-SA= X design only makes calls to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 a= rgument call stack. Data that SAX=0A= would push via too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands= pop's =0A= =20 =0A= Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it could= equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is a= ware of?) There is no other way to implement "the protocol". I have gone = to much effort to try to communicate=0A= this clearly=2C and developed a simple little example that breaks it all d= own into numbers that you can see and understand. The examples build on Li= nux and Windows=2C=0A= =0A= =20 =0A= Polished Source: =0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip =0A= Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology =0A= http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =0A= =20 =0A= SO Folks=2C=20 =0A= =20 =0A= I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about this. Am = I in the right place? =0A= =20 =0A= Brian Aberle =0A= ___________________________________________________________________________= __ =0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= >On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C wrote: =0A= > =0A= >Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C an= d not us? =0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= =20 =0A= > On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos wrote:= =0A= =0A= >=0A= =0A= > I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to=20 =0A= > document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of=20 =0A= > "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of=20 =0A= > interest. =0A= >=20 =0A= > I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to=20 =0A= > include application level recommended design=2C implementation and=20 =0A= > deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard"=20 =0A= > and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of=20 =0A= > communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a=20 =0A= > "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=20 =0A= > increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data"=20 =0A= > methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle wrote: =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 =0A= From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com =0A= Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing =0A= To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org=0A= =0A= =0A= EAGAIN =0A= =0A= errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle w= rote:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Hi world=2C =0A= It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in my wh= ole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for that. Isn't = this the place where the old school masters kick it? All .com aside this i= s about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you=0A= that is where all this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Pe= acock's is not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators b= ecause we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy= =2C just not real chatty=2C or are too=0A= busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. I put toget= her a very complete example and implementation. Forgive me for not supplyi= ng this direct link in my first posting: =0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D!AAn= vh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip =0A= =0A= World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. This overview in HTML is = rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C = and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using=0A= this stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =0A= =20 =0A= The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" =0A= The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is that n= ecessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this spot? I asked t= he apps-discuss admins who said that it could be equally as effective to ge= t good discussion going as it would=0A= an Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bi= t. =0A= =20 =0A= World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the numbers= in the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock f= ight id put all my money on 777. =0A= =20 =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From: xml4ietf@live.com =0A= To: apps-discuss@ietf.org =0A= Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing =0A= Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700=0A= =0A= Hello World=2C=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX an= d DOM. I have put together several examples that show performance numbers= =0A= which alone justify this alternative to SAX or DOM. There are other reaso= ns as well=2C primarily - the argument for "Object Oriented Design" in the = application layer. This issue in discussion here before the community is: = Do we want an RFC for this? Maybe=0A= not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. The conce= pt is simple. It is "XML Serialization".=0A= =0A= =0A= XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must also n= ote that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor Object Inst= ance=0A= Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things that we just don't ne= ed=2C however I have prepared an example using CORBA that does need this(an= d we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). This concept was identified quick= ly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread: =0A= http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D204721=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Most=0A= recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by=0A= Brian=0A= Aberle =0A= =0A= =0A= I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where=0A= we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the questio= n. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept http://www.codep= roject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2 I=0A= have received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of = that article over the past decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML doc= describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and refined al= l encompassing open source implementation.=0A= =0A= =0A= I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML= 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact backed= =0A= by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. "XML Serialization"= is perhaps slightly more complex in implementation. We need to use the ne= w word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe th= e even more complex implementation which=0A= addresses the needs raised in the above two public threads over the past d= ecade.=0A= =0A= =0A= Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from re-invent= ing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each of u= s=0A= would create our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we would roll= nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? That is the question. =0A= =20 =0A= World=2C what do you think?=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= _______________________________________________ =0A= apps-discuss mailing list =0A= apps-discuss@ietf.org =0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= = --_70a3c38c-45a8-49be-8f2e-beb354caa6ad_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter=2C
 =3B
As you s= uggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. =3B =3BThanks for the wa= rning. =3B IAM XMLBoss@live.com= on that thread. =3B You IETF folks are not chatty at all compared to t= hem. =3B Yesterday =3Bwas =3Ball about =3B'RFC for XML Obje= ct Parsing'. =3B =3BI got some good feedback and got closer toward = an official =3Banswer to what this concept is (Protocol=2C Implementati= on=2C or XML 2.0). =3B I know I =3Bshowed up with polished code=2C = somewhat described =3Bwith 'bloggish' documentation here: http://www.codeproje= ct.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation =3Band no =3Bsummary or eve= n clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years of work.&nbs= p=3B =3BI will =3Bput together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive Su= mmary' / 'Internet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community consensu= s on the various views of the basic concept which must define the definitio= n. =3B I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary here (followe= d by a recap of this thread here):
 =3B
Perhaps ya'll can help me= refine this:
__________________
 =3B
Hello World=2C
 = =3B
I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong h= ere. =3B I wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 = and I wrote my own XSLT =3B- but I don't claim to know it all about XML= even though folks with lesser study than me claim to know all about XML.&n= bsp=3B Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this:
 =3BLets start with g= etting terminology right. =3B "A Protocol" is a set of =3Bcommunica= tion rules. When two parties agree on the specific use of =3Ba generic = markup language like XML=2C they have agreed on a protocol. =3B Is ever= yone with me so far? =3B With this 'definition' of a protocol=2C your X= ML parser should be 'unaware' of any specific protocol as it deals with the= general aspects of XML.
 =3B
I propose adding a new keywo= rd to XML=2C and I would like community feedback about it. =3B It would= work like this: =3B
 =3B
The tokenizer =3Brecognizes =3Ba special key= word attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first attribute (because tha= t is the only token we have parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object= ID" can be used to obtain the memory location (or application layer object= instances) that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory = copy into a tree or DOM structure. =3B This =3Bis not the syntax th= at my implementation uses but seems to convey the concept very well =3B= (<=3Bfoo @oid=3D"123"/>=3B)
 =3B
It's OVER =3Btwice as =3Bfast as the more traditiona= l "memory copy design" naturally because =3Bthe iterations to the tempo= rary structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the= tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to = SAX that avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the tok= en type via the SAX calls. =3B The non-SAX design =3Bonly makes cal= ls to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack.&nbs= p=3B Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to ne= edless push's ands pop's. =3B This implementation is about 3 times fast= er than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C =3Bthis makes it the mo= st ideal solution for the massive =3Bsets used in a native BigData xml = integration.
 =3B
The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. =3B Onc= e clearly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a prot= ocol. =3B =3B B) an application implementation =3B =3B C) a= n extension to XML along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1
 =3B
An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=3D=3D"Etag"&= nbsp=3B=2C is that there is a second keyword used with "oid" . =3B This= is the ONLY other keyword used=2C it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous t= o HTTP's "If-Modified-Since". =3B This HTTP analogy may help some with = the conceptual summary of what we are attempting to summarize.

Since =3Bthis = =3Bthing has a =3Brequirement of an attribute named "oid" it could equa= lly conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML tokenizer is aware = of?) =3B =3BThere is no other way to implement "the protocol". = =3B =3B If we call it =3B B) an implementation. =3B Now we have two XML's = a fast one and a slow one. =3B A new one and an old one. =3B The new XML is 10= 0% backwards compatible. =3B Again - this is all a matter of view. = =3B The important thing is to understand the concept.
 =3B
<=3BCustomer oid=3D'1'>= =3B
&nbs= p=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B <=3BCustomerID>=3B1<=3B/Customer= ID>=3B
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B .....
<=3B/Customer>=3B
Normally we would= call "oid" an attribute. =3B =3BIt is NOT Data in this case. = =3B It's a positional keyword in the XML. =3B For example if an attribu= te named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not in the 1st p= osition - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key.
 =3B
The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Ind= ex. =3B Just as a DBMS index can be keyed over multiple columns - likew= ise the "oid" can be a concatenation of several columns that make it a uniq= ue Object ID. =3B An application using an ConfigFile.xml would most lik= ely never use an "oid". =3B It's not designed =3Bto be used in all = applications. =3B Many XML Documents=2C unless they are indexed in by a= DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use.

Finally=2C Suppose you have = a list of "foos". =3B Suppose that list is very very long. 1 Terabyte. = Suppose that you get updated XML source of that list every 15 minutes. = =3B In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some foos() have been update= d. =3B With an "oid" we can parse this entire update=2C and make no new= memory allocations except of the new "foo's". =3B The XML Parser never= needs to allocate any memory storage if it can make a connection between t= he cached instance and an "oid".
 =3B =3B
Polished Source:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!9= 23&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technologyhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/378= 50/XMLFoundation
 =3B =3B
 =3B =3B =3B=
Brian Aberle
__________________
 =3B
 =3B
&= nbsp=3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca
To: xml= 4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC = for XMLObject Parsing
Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
=0A=

Hi Brian=2C

=0A=

 =3B=0A=

Although they can= be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C xml-dev also has lots = of smart people who know lots about xml=2C

=0A=

who will likely a= lso have an opinion although perhaps more informally than here.

= =0A=

 =3B=0A=

=0A=

Cheers=2C<= /p>=0A=

Peter Rushforth

=0A=
=0A=

 =3B=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

From:= apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org]=0A= On Behalf Of Brian Aberle
=0A= Sent: March 20=2C 2014 02:06
=0A= To: Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B apps-di= scuss@ietf.org
=0A= Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

 =3B

=0A=
=0A=

Hello World=2C
=0A=  =3B
=0A= There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". =3B Initially=2C I h= ad conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because it&nb= sp=3Bis handled =3Bby the XML tokenizer itself. =3B The tokenizer&n= bsp=3Brecognizes the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears=0A= as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out = yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory l= ocation (or application layer object instances) that the XML will parse dir= ectly into with no temporary memory=0A= copy into a tree like structure. =3B It's OVER =3Btwice as =3B= fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" naturally because =3B= the iterations to the temporary structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond = 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C=0A= but a more efficient alternative to SAX that avoids pushing a variable num= ber of arguments depending on the token type via the SAX calls. =3B The= non-SAX design =3Bonly makes calls to getToken(token *p) to pull the d= ata over a 1 argument call stack. =3B Data that SAX=0A= would push via too many argument that compile down to needless push's ands= pop's
=0A=  =3B
=0A= Since =3Bthis new thing =3Bhas a =3Brequirement of an attribute= named "oid" it could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that t= he XML tokenizer is aware of?) =3B =3BThere is no other way to impl= ement "the protocol". =3B I have gone to much effort to try to communic= ate=0A= this clearly=2C and developed a simple little example that breaks it all d= own into numbers that you can see and understand. =3B The examples buil= d on Linux and Windows=2C=0A=
=0A=  =3B
=0A= Polished Source:
=0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Baut= hkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
=0A= Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology
=0A= http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
= =0A=  =3B
=0A= SO Folks=2C
=0A=  =3B
=0A= I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about this. = =3B Am I in the right place?
=0A=  =3B
=0A= Brian Aberle
=0A= ___________________________________________________________________________= __
=0A=  =3B
=0A=  =3B
=0A= >=3BOn Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C<=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com>=3B wrote:
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3BAren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W= 3C and not us?
=0A=  =3B
=0A=  =3B
=0A=  =3B
=0A= >=3B On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C =3BHector Santos<=3Bhsantos@isdg.net>=3B =3Bwrote:

=0A=
=0A=

>=3B=0A=
=0A= >=3B I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to <= br>=0A= >=3B document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of
= =0A= >=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes o= f
=0A= >=3B interest.
=0A= >=3B
=0A= >=3B I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to=
=0A= >=3B include application level recommended design=2C implementation and <= br>=0A= >=3B deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" =
=0A= >=3B and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
= =0A= >=3B communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a =0A= >=3B "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The =0A= >=3B increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "dat= a"
=0A= >=3B methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol.

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Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrot= e:
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Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800
=0A= From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
=0A= Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
=0A= To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-disc= uss@ietf.org

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On = Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com&= gt=3B wrote:

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Hi world=2C
=0A= It's me again. =3B =3BI'll just be honest here. =3B Ive never t= ook the time in my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me = out for that. =3B Isn't this the place where the old school masters kic= k it? =3B =3BAll .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind y= ou=0A= that is where all this Internet stuff came from. =3B Now I know a foru= m of Peacock's is not =3Bimpressed by another colorful cool guy. We hav= e moderators because we know that cock fighting is real. =3B =3BI d= on't know if ya'll are shy=2C just not real chatty=2C or are too=0A= busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the new guy=2C I don't know. =3B I pu= t together a very complete example and implementation. =3B Forgive me f= or not supplying this direct link in my first posting:
=0A= https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Baut= hkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
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=0A= World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an Internet Dra= ft to obtain =3Bfeedback? =3B That is the new question. This = =3Boverview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF Gurus= =2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using=0A= this stuff. =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XM= LFoundation
=0A=  =3B
=0A= The =3BOLD question =3Bwas "Should we have an RFC for this?"
=0A= The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" =3B Is= that necessary? to get the attention of =3Bcocks that squawk in this s= pot? I asked the =3Bapps-discuss admins =3Bwho said that it =3B= could be equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would=0A= an Internet Draft. =3B I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volu= me a bit.
=0A=  =3B
=0A= World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? =3B Look at the = numbers in the example program ExIndexObjects. =3B If numbers were to g= et in a cock fight id put all my money on 777.
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From: xml4ietf@liv= e.com
=0A= To: apps-discuss@ietf.org
=0A= Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
=0A= Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700

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Hello World=2C

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I am seeking communi= ty feedback regarding an official alternative to SAX and DOM. =3B I hav= e put together several examples that show performance numbers=0A= which alone justify =3Bthis alternative to SAX or DOM. =3B There a= re other reasons as well=2C primarily =3B- the argument for "Object Ori= ented Design" in =3Bthe application layer. =3B This issue in discus= sion here =3Bbefore the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? = =3B Maybe=0A= not. =3B Maybe so. =3B We don't all want to keep inventing the whe= el. =3B The concept is simple. =3B It is "XML Serialization".

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XMLObject Parsing?&n= bsp=3B We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must also note that "Ser= ialization" =3Bincludes neither =3BKeyed =3BXML Updates nor Obj= ect Instance=0A= Reference counting. =3B We also don't need fancy things that we just d= on't =3Bneed=2C =3Bhowever I have prepared an example using CORBA t= hat does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). =3B This&= nbsp=3Bconcept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this thread:&= nbsp=3B=0A= http://www.artima.com/forum= s/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721

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&n= bsp=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B=0A= Most=0A= recent reply: Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by= =0A= Br= ian=0A= Aberle =3B =3B =3B

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I = recommend =3Bthat =3Bthis thread =3Bbe continuation from t= hat one=2C where=0A= we resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) =3B That is the = question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept =3Bhttp://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XM= LFoundation-2 =3BI=0A= have received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of = that article over the past decade++=3B =3B The roughness of the draft H= TML doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and ref= ined all encompassing open source implementation.

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I had developed/co-d= eveloped 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization of XML 1.0. =3B That i= s rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - fact =3Bbacked=0A= by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. =3B "XML Seriali= zation" is perhaps =3Bslightly more complex in implementation. =3B&= nbsp=3BWe need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or perhaps "XML Ser= ialization++" to describe the =3Beven more complex implementation = =3Bwhich=0A= addresses the needs raised in =3Bthe above two public threads over the= past decade.

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Since the very purpo= se of =3BIETF is designed to prevent us all from re-inventing the wheel= when we collectively can identify a need for it=2C (each =3Bof us=0A= would =3Bcreate our own cool version no doubt) but collectively we wou= ld =3Broll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC for this? =3B T= hat is the question.
=0A=  =3B
=0A= World=2C what do you think?

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__________________= _____________________________
=0A= apps-discuss mailing list
=0A= apps-discuss@ietf.org
=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

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= --_70a3c38c-45a8-49be-8f2e-beb354caa6ad_-- From nobody Mon Mar 24 07:55:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9451A024C for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.197 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SzFxVpqizAPW for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [IPv6:2607:f0d0:3001:aa::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B3C1A0243 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4032D04423; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1395672949; bh=LGNXoOZ57X7ThWHchgqdZ5uJAWICuzbYHNAqfY554s0=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=Uq2DvueFu271QQGotS6HmwZ79SqD1MaWoSmLePkhTchoyUH8m8EO8DO320YJka0UN nQAvBaTDssxDwAuH2xdogbGGYBMOgmsiO8FCXHShyYbY22NL0s6gRou+Eh1FIlANWX SwLdy0OiV1J1fpxleu2h31goi2psONfXZPUiUhCE= Received: from [IPV6:2600:1003:b105:b5d:a808:b033:42bf:a5fe] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1003:b105:b5d:a808:b033:42bf:a5fe]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 73470D04271; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <53302081.5030606@tana.it> References: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> <53302081.5030606@tana.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Scott Kitterman Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:39 -0400 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <4580f3c0-eae4-47c0-b508-0a04c6980312@email.android.com> X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/NVHKkZicci9oXQoGXgImgq6jVAw Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:55:53 -0000 On March 24, 2014 8:09:37 AM EDT, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >On Wed 19/Mar/2014 19:12:35 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: >> >> If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list of >ptypes, but >> keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that >version 2 >> SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 >feature >> (i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations >aren't >> disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new >pytpes >> without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a version >2 header >> field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to keep >both >> halves). > >I don't understand to whom and for what it would be useful to know the >exact version number. John's suggestion to skip stanzas with unknown >ptypes looks more practical. A record's version can still be derived >by analyzing what ptypes are actually present there. As currently defined, unknown ptypes are an error. I agree with msk that we need to bump the version number to do this. Fortunately, I think if we do it in the way I suggest, it's essentially backwards compatible. Starting in RFC 5451, the mechanism for describing feature changes is the version number and it applies to the entire header field. Changing that now could cause interoperability problems since it would change errors to thing that should silently be ignored. >> I'd even write this draft if you want. > >It'd be enough to have Franck's draft relax the ptype: It is already >marked up as . As above, I don't think it's that easy. I don't know if it ends up in it's own draft or not. It's easy enough to copy and paste it later into Franck's draft if that's the right answer. Scott K From nobody Mon Mar 24 08:53:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5790A1A022B for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:53:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DdchlhbQ3H8V for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [208.43.65.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACD51A023F for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101DA956261; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 11:53:23 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1395676403; bh=YzmSU1KqPiHck7UTja3kKRDj9gUgd++MBnj4SAOF9ig=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=R++Nfu0qFnfIKtSUAubwZxpFhWBoIK+g/0WL8jRZoSxeyP8q8vl98ZCcyMM54Pcsb OVN7M8zx2M3Tdz1VaEZwvEJfj6HJ1mFbkXONqPY7E4GuwarLnkXd9zjkU8cZL9uooD 6aTjyA1O3zqsjFEdF8skrdVcjcxHgnF3qbdEIapE= Received: from [IPV6:2600:1003:b105:b5d:a808:b033:42bf:a5fe] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1003:b105:b5d:a808:b033:42bf:a5fe]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9111E956004; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 11:53:22 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <4580f3c0-eae4-47c0-b508-0a04c6980312@email.android.com> References: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> <53302081.5030606@tana.it> <4580f3c0-eae4-47c0-b508-0a04c6980312@email.android.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Scott Kitterman Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 11:53:20 -0400 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <9064cf40-6550-4f44-b820-4289158297b7@email.android.com> X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/wgCuM9BDOuA3F6C7U0hiC4csJQ0 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:53:26 -0000 On March 24, 2014 10:55:39 AM EDT, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > >On March 24, 2014 8:09:37 AM EDT, Alessandro Vesely >wrote: >>On Wed 19/Mar/2014 19:12:35 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> >>> If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list of >>ptypes, but >>> keep the "no version specified means version 1" and specify that >>version 2 >>> SHOULD only be used in the auth-results header field if a version 2 >>feature >>> (i.e. a new pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations >>aren't >>> disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these new >>pytpes >>> without issue (if a current implementation tries to process a >version >>2 header >>> field and breaks in the process, I think the implementer gets to >keep >>both >>> halves). >> >>I don't understand to whom and for what it would be useful to know the >>exact version number. John's suggestion to skip stanzas with unknown >>ptypes looks more practical. A record's version can still be derived >>by analyzing what ptypes are actually present there. > >As currently defined, unknown ptypes are an error. I agree with msk >that we need to bump the version number to do this. Fortunately, I >think if we do it in the way I suggest, it's essentially backwards >compatible. > >Starting in RFC 5451, the mechanism for describing feature changes is >the version number and it applies to the entire header field. Changing >that now could cause interoperability problems since it would change >errors to thing that should silently be ignored. I double checked and the Python module I helped develop raises an error on unknown ptypes, so this isn't just theoretical. https://launchpad.net/authentication-results-python Scott K From nobody Mon Mar 24 10:39:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7288D1A0245 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.563 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RRCdYhkkigAW for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69C91A022B for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4848 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2014 17:39:04 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2014 17:39:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53306db8.xn--3zv.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=+5RW5k/9yNzDTf2vX8CRMOLqVFOKEwCiKp4BLH7Ed88=; b=nH2jeVd1EzqdVrclr0h0nwOnT6JtCwM45VXrSbeeTcydVSPlUTPkQr4Q3KlN7PjmbChIGEvicgCDz7atG4H4Ucxac3arRon7louHH9K5CmY3ypcnEQCwhIzKYTRgkJzIqWeQU+UvH3V6hF456nTxQxEvNnZR+N4iPSRRdBrxgpB8MVc2bS5Su5Q71AAObN0Zeli3zyjj7+QYqwm+/6B4Jh1gWqnisdXinSdfrmFUqgv6xCQbNStemU5dJZ5nHa9A DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53306db8.xn--3zv.k1403; bh=+5RW5k/9yNzDTf2vX8CRMOLqVFOKEwCiKp4BLH7Ed88=; b=zBhWPDnqhJq2ifoyX6fEBD6Cyc2cO66TI3+vS4UVWIhk+h+WoYctMBjt+gHkmn75oPxmoejfMhTSzmKsGDMhwQzwZPg2Wxf7u+M8CmRmGTQkXGcO01/57fRFSeYaGidMwwdxrJPldOyChGzora4S93xdmHjfT2VwNGnv+EtQxTlU38wx2OMKdYLaezkI3HHp74crxWndqdHlVS14p6U1Y/xucf/NQG6JPHnTHhGtethClmEEdIt7EUYJsByB0wwM Date: 24 Mar 2014 17:38:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20140324173842.95938.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9064cf40-6550-4f44-b820-4289158297b7@email.android.com> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/rlEejwMmNpRMl_uqoQ2BGjtGaiA Cc: scott@kitterman.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:39:08 -0000 >I double checked and the Python module I helped develop raises an error on unknown ptypes, so this isn't just theoretical. > >https://launchpad.net/authentication-results-python It also raises an error on an unsupported version number, so you lose with an A-R header with extended syntax either way. R's, John From nobody Mon Mar 24 12:39:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0B61A02D6 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:39:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2kWkIbSCr4b for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (mailout03.controlledmail.com [208.43.65.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18F51A027C for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.controlledmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC960956002; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:39:47 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=kitterman.com; s=2007-00; t=1395689987; bh=6vQZjUb05J2vGsVkuZAIbBoKr2Q5y6Dls2I2CkTlgXo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=SPtT7IGPj2fIW1CPAhIY82/sXFH6bgdntVqr9lhAKzPNq8pKlt/WTw7dz/fFNzLDz E171/XFsabOLf9BqNELsfdFS5G6b7HW07SM5LFLvfQoeExqzrTOCe3mvWS3Cr8D/eK Punw2wQkcGUbrarWCBWMdvKSCKvpFMib2n09/vtw= Received: from scott-latitude-e6320.localnet (unknown [209.140.65.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B717AD04178; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:39:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Kitterman To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:39:14 -0400 Message-ID: <1653433.uott8tfcWz@scott-latitude-e6320> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.5 (Linux/3.11.0-18-generic; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <20140324173842.95938.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20140324173842.95938.qmail@joyce.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/3OsMTKh8JgszUeottUtc5a5zG2Q Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:39:51 -0000 On Monday, March 24, 2014 17:38:42 John Levine wrote: > >I double checked and the Python module I helped develop raises an error on > >unknown ptypes, so this isn't just theoretical. > > > >https://launchpad.net/authentication-results-python > > It also raises an error on an unsupported version number, so you lose > with an A-R header with extended syntax either way. I think that's the correct thing to do. If we take my approach, the unsupported version number only appears in header fields that contain data that it can't parse anyway, so even with the extension, existing records could be processed by existing code. If you don't bump the version and change the ABNF to allow new ptypes, it's going to be a syntax error, not an error because the version isn't understood. In any case, I think the defined mechanism for extending beyond the existing ABNF is bump the version. If we wanted something like SPF and modifiers where unknown modifiers are ignored, I think that had to be in 5451 for version 1. Scott K From nobody Tue Mar 25 05:55:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47B81A0100 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:54:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDkPOGrK-s_u for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop3.winserver.com (ntbbs.santronics.com [208.247.131.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957DC1A00F9 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:54:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=17537; t=1395752070; h=Received:Received: Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject: List-ID; bh=JtW7UcYy8BBhI5kTs1pKC92LLxI=; b=JWgVfvbdceDTG8g65VIn sLbJoxpLdM0wAbcrdFGHB6ZZLGu/xG8trVEhoi9kpHgl+d9vFNu54/2Vq8+KNn+U EFI587CZJKVPkLA+FaUiF0+gCc3eSgWwTPCK5/Qb48+s1DvCbkrg+G72ORAH9JJ3 bmcYaZmeHB+ST6cZg/IqCNI= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! 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SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([99.121.4.27]) by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 185792507.9.14904; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:55 -0400 Message-ID: <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:54:25 -0400 From: Hector Santos Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Aberle , "Rushforth, Peter" References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/iXcucLSoakqyah0UvcSAEfsApq4 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:54:44 -0000 Brian, I've a little (maybe a lot) unsure of what you are asking for. Are you asking for permission to write an IETF-based I-D (individual draft) documenting your XML solution? Which appears to be an "add-on" enhancement or optimizer? or it just a better parser? If the later, thats software -- it sounds like you are trying to "sell, push, and/or market" a specific parser library called XMLFoundation. I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC format. But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended and generically beneficial to all. XML Parser Libraries can vary tremendously and for us, the specific XML parser used depends on the application, tool or need. For example, if the development environment does not already have a built-in XML parser, then we might consider using PUGXML.H which is a very popular, C/C++ portable, lightweight, small footprint XML parser. In general XML libraries are "fat" and huge, and pug comes in handy. PUGXML is documented at Code Project and if you do a search, you can see it has evolved with "add-on" solutions as well: http://www.codeproject.com/search.aspx?q=PugXML&doctypeid=1%3b2%3b3%3b13%3b14%3b9%3b10 So the rethorical queston is should the IETF begin documenting "pseudo-standard" coding methods such as XML and specifically libraries like PugXML, XMLFoundation? Finally, not getting into detail, it sounds like you want a specific "token" or attribute added to an XML node in order to improve or optimize the "finding" of nodes? Again, thats sounds more like a specific software library issue. If the solution requires your "library" that to me, isn't generally IETF material because its not something everyone can use. If you are suggesting that the method used in your functions be published as an open standard for other parsers to implement, then perhaps that may be of interest to XML parser developers. -- HLS On 3/24/2014 9:35 AM, Brian Aberle wrote: > Peter, > > As you suggested, I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for the > warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com on that > thread. You IETF folks are not chatty at all compared to them. > Yesterday was all about 'RFC for XML Object Parsing'. I got some good > feedback and got closer toward an official answer to what this concept > is (Protocol, Implementation, or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with > polished code, somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation here: > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation and no summary > or even clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years > of work. I will put together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive > Summary' / 'Internet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community > consensus on the various views of the basic concept which must define > the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary > here (followed by a recap of this thread here): > > Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this: > __________________ > > Hello World, > > I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong > here. I wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 > and I wrote my own XSLT - but I don't claim to know it all about XML > even though folks with lesser study than me claim to know all about > XML. Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this: > > Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a set > of communication rules. When two parties agree on the specific use > of a generic markup language like XML, they have agreed on a > protocol. Is everyone with me so far? With this 'definition' of a > protocol, your XML parser should be 'unaware' of any specific protocol > as it deals with the general aspects of XML. > > I propose adding a new keyword to XML, and I would like community > feedback about it. It would work like this: > > The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it > appears as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have > parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to > obtain the memory location (or application layer object instances) > that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory copy > into a tree or DOM structure. This is not the syntax that my > implementation uses but seems to convey the concept very well ( @oid="123"/>) > > It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" > naturally because the iterations to the temporary structure are > eliminated, it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses > neither SAX nor DOM, but a more efficient alternative to SAX that > avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token > type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to > getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > needless push's ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times > faster than the very best anyone can do with SAX, this makes it the > most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml > integration. > > The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once > clearly understood, it becomes clear that you could call this A) a > protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML > along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1 > > An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=="Etag" , is that there is > a second keyword used with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword > used, it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's > "If-Modified-Since". This HTTP analogy may help some with the > conceptual summary of what we are attempting to summarize. > > Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > protocol". If we call it B) an implementation. Now we have two XML's > a fast one and a slow one. A new one and an old one. The new XML is > 100% backwards compatible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The > important thing is to understand the concept. > > > 1 > ..... > > > Normally we would call "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this > case. It's a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an > attribute named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not > in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key. > > The "oid" == the DBMS Index. Just as a DBMS index can be keyed over > multiple columns - likewise the "oid" can be a concatenation of > several columns that make it a unique Object ID. An application using > an ConfigFile.xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not > designed to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents, unless > they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use. > > Finally, Suppose you have a list of "foos". Suppose that list is very > very long. 1 Terabyte. Suppose that you get updated XML source of that > list every 15 minutes. In the huge list, some "foos" are new, some > foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire > update, and make no new memory allocations except of the new "foo's". > The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory storage if it can > make a connection between the cached instance and an "oid". > > Polished Source: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip > > A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technology > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > Brian Aberle > __________________ > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca > To: xml4ietf@live.com; apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 > > Hi Brian, > > Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned), > xml-dev also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml, > > who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally > than here. > > Cheers, > > Peter Rushforth > > *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Brian Aberle > *Sent:* March 20, 2014 02:06 > *To:* Bill Mills; superuser@gmail.com; hsantos@isdg.net; > apps-discuss@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Hello World, > > There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially, I had > conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because > it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes > the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first > attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out yet in > that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory > location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will > parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like > structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory > copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary > structure are eliminated, it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the > tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM, but a more efficient alternative > to SAX that avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on > the token type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls > to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > needless push's ands pop's > > Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > protocol". I have gone to much effort to try to communicate this > clearly, and developed a simple little example that breaks it all down > into numbers that you can see and understand. The examples build on > Linux and Windows, > > Polished Source: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip > > Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > SO Folks, > > I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about > this. Am I in the right place? > > Brian Aberle > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > >>On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:57 PM,> wrote: >> >>Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C and not us? > > > >> On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11, Hector Santos> wrote: > >> >> I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to >> document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of >> "broad" industry and peer review, more importantly for all sizes of >> interest. >> >> I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to >> include application level recommended design, implementation and >> deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" >> and these days, we have so many argumentations and levels of >> communications, that yes, today XML is highly considered as a >> "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The >> increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" >> methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. > > Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000, Brian Aberle > wrote: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 > From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > To: xml4ietf@live.com; apps-discuss@ietf.org > > > EAGAIN > > errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF > > > On Monday, March 3, 2014 11:57 AM, Brian Aberle wrote: > > Hi world, > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in > my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for > that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All > .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs, mind you that is where all > this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is > not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because > we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy, > just not real chatty, or are too busy, maybe just didn't notice the > new guy, I don't know. I put together a very complete example and > implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my > first posting: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=file%2c.zip > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an > Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. > This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF > Gurus, Bosses, Admins, and Chiefs, but for programmers using this > stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is > that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this > spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be > equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an > Internet Draft. I believe them, so I turned up the color volume a bit. > > World, can I have an ACK, NAK, Ping, anything? Look at the numbers in > the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock > fight id put all my money on 777. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > Hello World, > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to > SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show > performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or > DOM. There are other reasons as well, primarily - the argument for > "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in > discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? > Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. > The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words, but we must > also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor > Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things > that we just don't need, however I have prepared an example using > CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). > This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this > thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=226&thread=204721 > > Most recent reply > : > Feb 12, 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one, where we > resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the > question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2I have > received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of > that article over the past decade++; The roughness of the draft HTML > doc describing this stuff, should not reflect on the polished and > refined all encompassing open source implementation. > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization > of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - > fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. > "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in > implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or > perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more complex > implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two > public threads over the past decade. > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from > re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for > it, (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but > collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC > for this? That is the question. > > World, what do you think? From nobody Tue Mar 25 07:16:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C291A0150 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEv2kVj1eGOT for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc4-s10.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc4-s10.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.213]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF191A011B for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W59 ([65.55.90.199]) by snt0-omc4-s10.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:16:20 -0700 X-TMN: [alPupOiLllfVVpHc1uu8vvauK39vAjns] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_b59dbafc-9acd-42c2-a708-943b6d062332_" From: Brian Aberle To: Hector Santos Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:16:20 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> ,<53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2014 14:16:20.0315 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB49E2B0:01CF4834] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/V4bPqQjBFGlJpu4y--qVH1YLRAU Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:16:27 -0000 --_b59dbafc-9acd-42c2-a708-943b6d062332_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's whats going on right now. All threads at [xml-dev] are on this topi= c as I type. For 2 days in a row I have not had any time to code because I= spend every moment in [xml-dev] discussing this. I am getting very good f= eedback from folks we might call an authority in XML. =20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Howard_Kay http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ =20 > draft) documenting your XML solution? Which appears to be an "add-on"=20 > enhancement or optimizer? or it just a better parser? @[xml-dev] One person said "Holy Shit! this is not XML"=2C another said "Ye= s it is XML"=2C and another calls it XML 2.0 but Liam says "Not Likely" =20 =20 > If the later=2C thats software -- it sounds like you are trying to=20 > "sell=2C push=2C and/or market" a specific parser library called XMLFound= ation. It's free=2C open source=2C I am an engineer not a salesman. =20 > I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of=20 > "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC format.=20 > But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended and=20 > generically beneficial to all. At the moment [xml-dev] has fully embraced this discussion. The documentat= ion is being produced almost as fast as I can type and folks can ask. Many= advanced topics have already been discussed=2C and the summary of the past= two days is a great advancement in making this generically beneficial to a= ll. =20 =20 > XML Parser Libraries can vary tremendously=20 =20 Yes. and the "hole" in XML 1.0/1.0 that allows an XML parser to retain or d= iscard attribute order literally draws a line down the middle of XMLParser = implementations that are available. Some are not even capable of being "ext= ended" to support this fast parsing. =20 > ... If you are=20 > suggesting that the method used in your functions be published as an=20 > open standard for other parsers to implement=2C then perhaps that may be= =20 > of interest to XML parser developers. >=20 IAM. It is. =20 At this moment in time=2C if anyone at IETF wants to be involved with this = I recommend joining the [xml-dev] discussion at least until there is anothe= r topic under discussion at [xml-dev] besides this very issue. =20 =20 Brian ___________________________ =20 =20 >=20 > -- > HLS >=20 >=20 > On 3/24/2014 9:35 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > Peter=2C > > > > As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for the > > warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com on that > > thread. You IETF folks are not chatty at all compared to them. > > Yesterday was all about 'RFC for XML Object Parsing'. I got some good > > feedback and got closer toward an official answer to what this concept > > is (Protocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with > > polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation here: > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation and no summary > > or even clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years > > of work. I will put together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive > > Summary' / 'Internet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community > > consensus on the various views of the basic concept which must define > > the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary > > here (followed by a recap of this thread here): > > > > Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this: > > __________________ > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong > > here. I wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 > > and I wrote my own XSLT - but I don't claim to know it all about XML > > even though folks with lesser study than me claim to know all about > > XML. Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this: > > > > Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a set > > of communication rules. When two parties agree on the specific use > > of a generic markup language like XML=2C they have agreed on a > > protocol. Is everyone with me so far? With this 'definition' of a > > protocol=2C your XML parser should be 'unaware' of any specific protoco= l > > as it deals with the general aspects of XML. > > > > I propose adding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community > > feedback about it. It would work like this: > > > > The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it > > appears as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have > > parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to > > obtain the memory location (or application layer object instances) > > that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory copy > > into a tree or DOM structure. This is not the syntax that my > > implementation uses but seems to convey the concept very well ( > @oid=3D"123"/>) > > > > It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" > > naturally because the iterations to the temporary structure are > > eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses > > neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX that > > avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token > > type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to > > getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times > > faster than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the > > most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml > > integration. > > > > The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once > > clearly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a > > protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML > > along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1 > > > > An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that ther= e is > > a second keyword used with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword > > used=2C it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's > > "If-Modified-Since". This HTTP analogy may help some with the > > conceptual summary of what we are attempting to summarize. > > > > Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". If we call it B) an implementation. Now we have two XML's > > a fast one and a slow one. A new one and an old one. The new XML is > > 100% backwards compatible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The > > important thing is to understand the concept. > > > > > > 1 > > ..... > > > > > > Normally we would call "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this > > case. It's a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an > > attribute named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not > > in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key. > > > > The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBMS index can be keyed ove= r > > multiple columns - likewise the "oid" can be a concatenation of > > several columns that make it a unique Object ID. An application using > > an ConfigFile.xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not > > designed to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless > > they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use. > > > > Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "foos". Suppose that list is ver= y > > very long. 1 Terabyte. Suppose that you get updated XML source of that > > list every 15 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some > > foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire > > update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new "foo's". > > The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory storage if it can > > make a connection between the cached instance and an "oid". > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > > > Brian Aberle > > __________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 > > > > Hi Brian=2C > > > > Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C > > xml-dev also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C > > > > who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally > > than here. > > > > Cheers=2C > > > > Peter Rushforth > > > > *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > > Of *Brian Aberle > > *Sent:* March 20=2C 2014 02:06 > > *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B > > apps-discuss@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had > > conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because > > it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes > > the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first > > attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out yet in > > that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory > > location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will > > parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like > > structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory > > copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary > > structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the > > tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative > > to SAX that avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on > > the token type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls > > to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's > > > > Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". I have gone to much effort to try to communicate this > > clearly=2C and developed a simple little example that breaks it all dow= n > > into numbers that you can see and understand. The examples build on > > Linux and Windows=2C > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > SO Folks=2C > > > > I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about > > this. Am I in the right place? > > > > Brian Aberle > > _______________________________________________________________________= ______ > > > > > >>On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C> wrote: > >> > >>Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C= and not us? > > > > > > > >> On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos> wrote: > > > >> > >> I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to > >> document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of > >> "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of > >> interest. > >> > >> I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to > >> include application level recommended design=2C implementation and > >> deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" > >> and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of > >> communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a > >> "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The > >> increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" > >> methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. > > > > Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle > > wrote: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 > > From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > EAGAIN > > > > errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF > > > > > > On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > > > Hi world=2C > > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in > > my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for > > that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All > > .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all > > this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is > > not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because > > we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C > > just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the > > new guy=2C I don't know. I put together a very complete example and > > implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my > > first posting: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an > > Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. > > This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF > > Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is > > stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is > > that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this > > spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be > > equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an > > Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bi= t. > > > > World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the num= bers in > > the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock > > fight id put all my money on 777. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to > > SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show > > performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or > > DOM. There are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for > > "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in > > discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? > > Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. > > The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". > > > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must > > also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor > > Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things > > that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using > > CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). > > This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this > > thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D2047= 21 > > > > Most recent reply > > : > > Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we > > resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the > > question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2I have > > received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of > > that article over the past decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML > > doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and > > refined all encompassing open source implementation. > > > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization > > of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - > > fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. > > "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in > > implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or > > perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more complex > > implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two > > public threads over the past decade. > > > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from > > re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for > > it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but > > collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC > > for this? That is the question. > > > > World=2C what do you think? >=20 >=20 = --_b59dbafc-9acd-42c2-a708-943b6d062332_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's whats going on right now.=  =3B =3BAll threads at [xml-dev] are on this topic =3Bas I type= . =3B For 2 days =3Bin a row I have not had any time to code becaus= e I spend every moment in [xml-dev] =3Bdiscussing =3Bthis. =3B = I am getting very good feedback from folks we might call an authority in&nb= sp=3BXML. =3B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Howard_Kay
http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
&nb= sp=3B
>=3B draft) documenting your XML solution? Which appears to be = an "add-on"
>=3B enhancement or optimizer? or it just a better parser= ?

@[xml-dev] One person said "Holy Shit! this is not XML"=2C another= said "Yes it is XML"=2C and another calls it XML 2.0 but Liam says "Not Li= kely"
 =3B
 =3B
>=3B If the later=2C thats software -- i= t sounds like you are trying to
>=3B "sell=2C push=2C and/or market" = a specific parser library called =3BXMLFoundation.

It's free=2C = open source=2C I am an engineer not a salesman.
 =3B

>=3B I= have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of
>= =3B "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC format. >=3B But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended and =
>=3B generically beneficial to all.

At the moment [xml-dev] ha= s fully embraced this discussion. =3B The documentation is being produc= ed almost as fast as I can type and folks can ask. =3B Many advanced to= pics have already been discussed=2C and the summary of the past two days is= a great advancement in making this generically beneficial to all. =3B =
 =3B
>=3B XML Parser Libraries can vary tremendously
 = =3B
Yes. and the "hole" in XML 1.0/1.0 that allows =3Ban XML =3B= parser to retain or discard attribute order literally draws a line down the= middle of XMLParser implementations that are available. Some are not even = capable of being "extended" to support this fast parsing. =3B

&= gt=3B ... If you are
>=3B suggesting that the method used in your fun= ctions be published as an
>=3B open standard for other parsers to imp= lement=2C then perhaps that may be
>=3B of interest to XML parser dev= elopers.
>=3B

IAM. =3B It is.
 =3B
At this momen= t in time=2C if anyone at IETF wants to be involved with this I recommend j= oining the [xml-dev] discussion at least until there is another topic under= discussion at [xml-dev] besides this very issue.
 =3B
 =3BBrian
___________________________
 =3B
 =3B
>=3B >=3B --
>=3B HLS
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B On 3/24/2014 9:35= AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote:
>=3B >=3B Peter=2C
>=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for = the
>=3B >=3B warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com <=3Bmailto:XMLBoss@li= ve.com>=3B on that
>=3B >=3B thread. You IETF folks are not chatt= y at all compared to them.
>=3B >=3B Yesterday was all about 'RFC fo= r XML Object Parsing'. I got some good
>=3B >=3B feedback and got c= loser toward an official answer to what this concept
>=3B >=3B is (P= rotocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with
>= =3B >=3B polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentatio= n here:
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFound= ation and no summary
>=3B >=3B or even clear definition of this proj= ect is that represents 14 years
>=3B >=3B of work. I will put toget= her such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive
>=3B >=3B Summary' / 'Internet= Draft' kind of paper once I have some community
>=3B >=3B consensus= on the various views of the basic concept which must define
>=3B >= =3B the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary
= >=3B >=3B here (followed by a recap of this thread here):
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this:
>=3B >= =3B __________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I need an XML expert to correct me if I have= any terminology wrong
>=3B >=3B here. I wrote my first two XML par= sers before W3C finalized XML 1.0
>=3B >=3B and I wrote my own XSLT = - but I don't claim to know it all about XML
>=3B >=3B even though f= olks with lesser study than me claim to know all about
>=3B >=3B XML= . Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this:
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is= a set
>=3B >=3B of communication rules. When two parties agree on t= he specific use
>=3B >=3B of a generic markup language like XML=2C t= hey have agreed on a
>=3B >=3B protocol. Is everyone with me so far= ? With this 'definition' of a
>=3B >=3B protocol=2C your XML parser= should be 'unaware' of any specific protocol
>=3B >=3B as it deals = with the general aspects of XML.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I propos= e adding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community
>=3B >= =3B feedback about it. It would work like this:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B= >=3B The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if = it
>=3B >=3B appears as the first attribute (because that is the onl= y token we have
>=3B >=3B parsed out yet in that element) Now the "O= bject ID" can be used to
>=3B >=3B obtain the memory location (or ap= plication layer object instances)
>=3B >=3B that the XML will parse = directly into with no temporary memory copy
>=3B >=3B into a tree or= DOM structure. This is not the syntax that my
>=3B >=3B implementa= tion uses but seems to convey the concept very well (<=3Bfoo
>=3B &= gt=3B @oid=3D"123"/>=3B)
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B It's OVER twic= e as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design"
>=3B >=3B nat= urally because the iterations to the temporary structure are
>=3B >= =3B eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses=
>=3B >=3B neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative t= o SAX that
>=3B >=3B avoids pushing a variable number of arguments d= epending on the token
>=3B >=3B type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX= design only makes calls to
>=3B >=3B getToken(token *p) to pull the= data over a 1 argument call stack.
>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would pu= sh via too many argument that compile down to
>=3B >=3B needless pus= h's ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times
>=3B >=3B fast= er than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the
>=3B= >=3B most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData x= ml
>=3B >=3B integration.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The firs= t priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once
>=3B >=3B cl= early understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a
>= =3B >=3B protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension t= o XML
>=3B >=3B along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.= 1
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B An interesting point of analogy with "o= id"=3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that there is
>=3B >=3B a second keyword used= with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword
>=3B >=3B used=2C it i= s "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's
>=3B >=3B "If-Modified-= Since". This HTTP analogy may help some with the
>=3B >=3B conceptu= al summary of what we are attempting to summarize.
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" i= t
>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol tha= t the XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way t= o implement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". If we call it B) an implement= ation. Now we have two XML's
>=3B >=3B a fast one and a slow one. = A new one and an old one. The new XML is
>=3B >=3B 100% backwards co= mpatible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The
>=3B >=3B impo= rtant thing is to understand the concept.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B= <=3BCustomer oid=3D'1'>=3B
>=3B >=3B <=3BCustomerID>= =3B1<=3B/CustomerID>=3B
>=3B >=3B .....
>=3B >=3B = <=3B/Customer>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Normally we would c= all "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this
>=3B >=3B case. It'= s a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an
>=3B >=3B attr= ibute named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not
>=3B= >=3B in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key.
&= gt=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a D= BMS index can be keyed over
>=3B >=3B multiple columns - likewise th= e "oid" can be a concatenation of
>=3B >=3B several columns that mak= e it a unique Object ID. An application using
>=3B >=3B an ConfigFi= le.xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not
>=3B >=3B des= igned to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless
>= =3B >=3B they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" u= se.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of= "foos". Suppose that list is very
>=3B >=3B very long. 1 Terabyte.= Suppose that you get updated XML source of that
>=3B >=3B list ever= y 15 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some
>=3B &g= t=3B foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire
&= gt=3B >=3B update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new= "foo's".
>=3B >=3B The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memor= y storage if it can
>=3B >=3B make a connection between the cached i= nstance and an "oid".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:>=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923= &=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >= =3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B= >=3B A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technolo= gy
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Brian Aberle
>=3B = >=3B __________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>=3B >=3B From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNC= an.gc.ca
>=3B >=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org>=3B >=3B Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B Hi Brian=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Although they can = be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C
>=3B >=3B xml-de= v also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps mor= e informally
>=3B >=3B than here.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = Cheers=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Peter Rushforth
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.= org] *On Behalf
>=3B >=3B Of *Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B *Sent:* = March 20=2C 2014 02:06
>=3B >=3B *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail= .com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B
>=3B >=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>= =3B >=3B *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had<= br>>=3B >=3B conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself= because
>=3B >=3B it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The t= okenizer recognizes
>=3B >=3B the special keyword attribute "oid" ON= LY if it appears as the first
>=3B >=3B attribute (because that is t= he only token we have parsed out yet in
>=3B >=3B that element) Now = the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory
>=3B >=3B location = (or application layer object instances) that the XML will
>=3B >=3B = parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like
>= =3B >=3B structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "mem= ory
>=3B >=3B copy design" naturally because the iterations to the t= emporary
>=3B >=3B structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 time= s as fast because the
>=3B >=3B tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM= =2C but a more efficient alternative
>=3B >=3B to SAX that avoids pu= shing a variable number of arguments depending on
>=3B >=3B the toke= n type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls
>=3B &g= t=3B to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack.>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile= down to
>=3B >=3B needless push's ands pop's
>=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "o= id" it
>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protoco= l that the XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other = way to implement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". I have gone to much effo= rt to try to communicate this
>=3B >=3B clearly=2C and developed a s= imple little example that breaks it all down
>=3B >=3B into numbers = that you can see and understand. The examples build on
>=3B >=3B Li= nux and Windows=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:
&g= t=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B = <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3B= authkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >= =3B Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology
>= =3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B SO Folks=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I= want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about
>=3B &= gt=3B this. Am I in the right place?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Bri= an Aberle
>=3B >=3B ________________________________________________= _____________________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3BOn Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C<=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com &= lt=3Bmailto:superuser@gmail.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3BAren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the p= urview of the W3C and not us?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos= <=3Bhsantos@isdg.net <=3Bmailto:hsantos@isdg.net>=3B>=3B wrote:
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B I think we migh= t be seeing what I have found is a new need just to
>=3B >=3B>=3B = document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all si= zes of
>=3B >=3B>=3B interest.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begi= n to
>=3B >=3B>=3B include application level recommended design=2C= implementation and
>=3B >=3B>=3B deployment methods proposals. No= t everything has to be a "standard"
>=3B >=3B>=3B and these days= =2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
>=3B >=3B>=3B com= munications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=
>=3B >=3B>=3B increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise hig= her overhead "data"
>=3B >=3B>=3B methods to be a non-issue and a = natural part of an I/O protocol.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Tue=2C 4= Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com
>=3B = >=3B <=3Bmailto:xml4ietf@live.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B -----------------------------------------------------------= -----------
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21= :36 -0800
>=3B >=3B From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
>=3B >=3B Subj= ect: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B To: xml4= ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B <=3Bmailto:apps-d= iscuss@ietf.org>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B EAGAIN
>=3B &g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM= =2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B Hi world=2C
>=3B >=3B It's me again. I'll just be hone= st here. Ive never took the time in
>=3B >=3B my whole career to be= on an IETF list - but don't count me out for
>=3B >=3B that. Isn't= this the place where the old school masters kick it? All
>=3B >=3B= .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all
= >=3B >=3B this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock= 's is
>=3B >=3B not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have = moderators because
>=3B >=3B we know that cock fighting is real. I = don't know if ya'll are shy=2C
>=3B >=3B just not real chatty=2C or = are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the
>=3B >=3B new guy=2C I = don't know. I put together a very complete example and
>=3B >=3B im= plementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my
>= =3B >=3B first posting:
>=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?= resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid= =3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World - Would it be = helpful if I put all this together into an
>=3B >=3B Internet Draft = to obtain feedback? That is the new question.
>=3B >=3B This overvi= ew in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF
>=3B >= =3B Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is
>=3B >=3B stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFou= ndation
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The OLD question was "Should we h= ave an RFC for this?"
>=3B >=3B The NEW question is "Should this be = put into an Internet Draft?" Is
>=3B >=3B that necessary? to get th= e attention of cocks that squawk in this
>=3B >=3B spot? I asked the= apps-discuss admins who said that it could be
>=3B >=3B equally as = effective to get good discussion going as it would an
>=3B >=3B Inte= rnet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bit.
&g= t=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C a= nything? Look at the numbers in
>=3B >=3B the example program ExInd= exObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock
>=3B >=3B fight id put = all my money on 777.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------= --------------------------------------------------
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B From: xml4ietf@live.com
>=3B >=3B To: apps-discuss@ietf.o= rg
>=3B >=3B Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B Dat= e: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hell= o World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I am seeking community feedbac= k regarding an official alternative to
>=3B >=3B SAX and DOM. I hav= e put together several examples that show
>=3B >=3B performance numb= ers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or
>=3B >=3B DOM. T= here are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for
>=3B &g= t=3B "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in
&= gt=3B >=3B discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for= this?
>=3B >=3B Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep in= venting the wheel.
>=3B >=3B The concept is simple. It is "XML Seri= alization".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B XMLObject Parsing? We don't = need to invent new words=2C but we must
>=3B >=3B also note that "Se= rialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor
>=3B >=3B Object= Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things
>=3B &g= t=3B that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using>=3B >=3B CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS p= roject).
>=3B >=3B This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Str= oustrup in this
>=3B >=3B thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.= jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Mos= t recent reply
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp= ?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721&=3Bstart=3D15#366941>=3B:
>=3B= >=3B Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp= ://www.artima.com/profile.jsp?user=3D70450>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B= >=3B I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where= we
>=3B >=3B resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) Th= at is the
>=3B >=3B question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draf= t on this concept
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/3785= 0/XMLFoundation-2I have
>=3B >=3B received much valuable feedback in= the public forum at the bottom of
>=3B >=3B that article over the p= ast decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML
>=3B >=3B doc descr= ibing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and
>=3B >=3B= refined all encompassing open source implementation.
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finali= zation
>=3B >=3B of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms o= f implementation -
>=3B >=3B fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor= in available XML Parsers.
>=3B >=3B "XML Serialization" is perhaps = slightly more complex in
>=3B >=3B implementation. We need to use t= he new word "XML Object Parsing" or
>=3B >=3B perhaps "XML Serializa= tion++" to describe the even more complex
>=3B >=3B implementation w= hich addresses the needs raised in the above two
>=3B >=3B public th= reads over the past decade.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Since the ver= y purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from
>=3B >=3B re-in= venting the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for
>=3B &g= t=3B it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but
&= gt=3B >=3B collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have a= n RFC
>=3B >=3B for this? That is the question.
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B World=2C what do you think?
>=3B
>=3B

=
= --_b59dbafc-9acd-42c2-a708-943b6d062332_-- From nobody Tue Mar 25 08:53:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36921A016D for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7lCSw498b4MF for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from egssmtp02.att.com (egssmtp02.att.com [144.160.128.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A752A1A0153 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by egssmtp02.att.com ( EGS R6 8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2PFrHif032083 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:53:17 -0700 Received: from vpn-135-70-103-92.vpn.swst.att.com ([135.70.103.92]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20140325155315gw100j0cbie>; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:53:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.103.92] Message-ID: <5331A66A.9060505@att.com> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:53:14 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Apps-Discusssion References: <52F00EFC.1060702@rfc-editor.org> <532C7FB6.2000203@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <532C7FB6.2000203@rfc-editor.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060202060001090608050109" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/x7jhHnCUGFAfOhtCsujjpIYml20 Cc: Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-wilde-xml-patch-08 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:53:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060202060001090608050109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a review of draft-wilde-xml-patch-08. Document: draft-wilde-xml-patch-08.txt Title: A Media Type for XML Patch Operations Author: Erik Wilde Reviewer: Tony Hansen Review Date: March 25, 2014 Some minor issues are described below that should be considered. This document is otherwise ready to be published. Please resolve these comments along with any other comments you may receive. Tony Hansen Major issues: none >>>> Nit. Abstract. Consider changing this sentence as indicated. The XML Patch media type "application/xml-patch+xml" defines an XML document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations that are applied to an XML document. to The XML Patch media type "application/xml-patch+xml" defines an XML document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations >>>to be<<< applied to an XML document. >>>>Nit. Abstract. This sentence needs to be split apart. I suggest just changing the comma after "RFC 5261" to a period. " The XML Patch document format's foundations are defined in RFC 5261, this specification defines a document format and a media type registration, so that XML Patch documents can be labeled with a media type, for example in HTTP conversations." >>>>Minor. Abstract. Actually, on rereading the abstract, I'm thinking it would be better expressed like the following. The primary focus of the I-D is the document format itself. The media type registration is a secondary consideration. In the following, I tried not to change your points, just the ordering and emphasis. The XML Patch document format defines an XML document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations to be applied to an XML document. The XML Patch document format builds on the foundations defined in RFC 5261. This specification defines the also provides the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the use of XML Patch documents in, for example, HTTP conversations. >>>>Nit: More white space would be useful around the XML segments, to offset them more. >>>>Minor: I STILL feel that section 2.2 would read better if it shows a before and after example of applying the principle described there. For example, after the second paragraph in section 2.2, add something like the following. (I think I got the conversion right below.) vvvvvv ====== vvvvvv For example, consider the patch example in RFC 5621 Appendix A.1. Adding an Element. The patch is shown there as an XML diff document: This is a new child With XML Patch, this would be converted to This is a new child ^^^^^^ ====== ^^^^^^ >>>>Nit: Appendix A "It described" => "It describes" >>>>Nit: Appendix A.1 "XMPL Patch" => "XML Patch" >>>>Minor. Appendix C There needs to be a pointer to the ABNF spec, RFC 5234, where things like DIGIT and DQUOTE are defined. I did not review in detail the ABNF grammar itself. --------------060202060001090608050109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a review of draft-wilde-xml-patch-08.

Document: draft-wilde-xml-patch-08.txt
Title: A Media Type for XML Patch Operations
Author: Erik Wilde
Reviewer: Tony Hansen
Review Date: March 25, 2014

Some minor issues are described below that should be considered. This document is otherwise ready to be published.

Please resolve these comments along with any other comments you may receive.

    Tony Hansen

Major issues: none

>>>> Nit. Abstract. Consider changing this sentence as indicated.

   The XML Patch media type "application/xml-patch+xml" defines an XML
   document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations that
   are applied to an XML document.
to
   The XML Patch media type "application/xml-patch+xml" defines an XML
   document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations >>>to
   be<<< applied to an XML document.


>>>>Nit. Abstract. This sentence needs to be split apart. I suggest just changing the comma after "RFC 5261" to a period.

   " The XML Patch document format's
   foundations are defined in RFC 5261, this specification defines a
   document format and a media type registration, so that XML Patch
   documents can be labeled with a media type, for example in HTTP
   conversations."


>>>>Minor. Abstract.

Actually, on rereading the abstract, I'm thinking it would be better expressed like the following. The primary focus of the I-D is the document format itself. The media type registration is a secondary consideration. In the following, I tried not to change your points, just the ordering and emphasis.

   The XML Patch document format defines an XML
   document structure for expressing a sequence of patch operations to
   be applied to an XML document.  The XML Patch document format
   builds on the foundations defined in RFC 5261. This specification defines the
   also provides the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml",
   to allow the use of XML Patch documents in, for example, HTTP conversations.



>>>>Nit: More white space would be useful around the XML segments, to offset them more.

>>>>Minor: I STILL feel that section 2.2 would read better if it shows a before and after example of applying the principle described there.

For example, after the second paragraph in section 2.2, add something like the following. (I think I got the conversion right below.)

vvvvvv ====== vvvvvv
For example, consider the patch example in RFC 5621 Appendix A.1. Adding an Element. The patch
is shown there as an XML diff document:

   <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
   <diff>
     <add sel="doc"><foo id="ert4773">This is a new child</foo></add>
   </diff>

With XML Patch, this would be converted to

   <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
   <p:patch xmlns="http://example.com/ns1" xmlns:p="urn:ietf:rfc:XXXX">
     <p:add sel="doc"><foo id="ert4773">This is a new child</foo></p:add>
   </p:patch>
^^^^^^ ====== ^^^^^^

>>>>Nit: Appendix A

"It described" => "It describes"

>>>>Nit: Appendix A.1

"XMPL Patch" => "XML Patch"

>>>>Minor. Appendix C
There needs to be a pointer to the ABNF spec, RFC 5234, where things like DIGIT and DQUOTE are defined.
I did not review in detail the ABNF grammar itself.
--------------060202060001090608050109-- From nobody Tue Mar 25 09:09:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0040D1A0179 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5tZU1pXTcBxS for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0601F1A016E for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=beta; t=1395763722; bh=6namNEiXovPL7X1Hh9M/fJ3qv4LAOiFX/R5pOCVtP5c=; l=2033; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=YNjrcyKSDXGceWhX2sUur2lnkpWn2Mm3lJ0tU9zV5V80630b7RtrfKOl77AnBF3fa 9pYvf5VtUNglGH1p9rOvgZKKt76uRpxkt6k5Q6O/5J3VAnmf8tcG3Ua5OaPdPaQWew VDwSlTS5YMc5zNd7bUJFJWOq/6SD0suV5+K9IInE= Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.88] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.88]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:08:42 +0100 id 00000000005DC035.000000005331AA0A.000070C5 Message-ID: <5331AA09.3010500@tana.it> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:08:41 +0100 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131103 Icedove/17.0.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org References: <1711249.6FS55xJva5@scott-latitude-e6320> <53302081.5030606@tana.it> <4580f3c0-eae4-47c0-b508-0a04c6980312@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <4580f3c0-eae4-47c0-b508-0a04c6980312@email.android.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/L8Gwnd3XMba0CqSmxRN1oYqsWXw Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Extending Authentication-Results again X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:08:47 -0000 On Mon 24/Mar/2014 15:55:39 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: > On March 24, 2014 8:09:37 AM EDT, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >> On Wed 19/Mar/2014 19:12:35 +0100 Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> >>> If we make a version 2 that has an IANA registry bounded list >>> of ptypes, but keep the "no version specified means version 1" >>> and specify that version 2 SHOULD only be used in the >>> auth-results header field if a version 2 feature (i.e. a new >>> pytpe) is used in the filed, then existing operations aren't >>> disturbed and existing implementations ought to ignore these >>> new pytpes without issue (if a current implementation tries to >>> process a version 2 header field and breaks in the process, I >>> think the implementer gets to keep both halves). >> >> I don't understand to whom and for what it would be useful to >> know the exact version number. John's suggestion to skip stanzas >> with unknown ptypes looks more practical. A record's version can >> still be derived by analyzing what ptypes are actually present >> there. > > As currently defined, unknown ptypes are an error. I agree with msk > that we need to bump the version number to do this. Fortunately, I > think if we do it in the way I suggest, it's essentially backwards > compatible. I agree we need to bump the version number. To mandate that the version number be explicitly written on each record is not needed. > Starting in RFC 5451, the mechanism for describing feature changes > is the version number and it applies to the entire header field. > Changing that now could cause interoperability problems since it > would change errors to thing that should silently be ignored. It is common practice to silently ignore syntax errors in mail headers. It can be useful if an A-R validator issues a warning upon finding an unknown-ptype syntax error. Even then, it shouldn't abort parsing, unless running in pedantic-mode, strict-version-1 checking, don't load sub-modules, or similar tweaks. Ale From nobody Tue Mar 25 10:06:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE551A01E9 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:06:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oAsEr-CmSxwp for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm05fe.IST.Berkeley.EDU (cm05fe.IST.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.218.146]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DFA1A01E1 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c-50-136-167-63.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([50.136.167.63] helo=dretpro.local) by cm05fe.ist.berkeley.edu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (auth plain:dret@berkeley.edu) (envelope-from ) id 1WSUns-0007uN-JC; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:06:22 -0700 Message-ID: <5331B78A.9000408@berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:06:18 -0700 From: Erik Wilde User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hansen , Apps-Discusssion References: <52F00EFC.1060702@rfc-editor.org> <532C7FB6.2000203@rfc-editor.org> <5331A66A.9060505@att.com> In-Reply-To: <5331A66A.9060505@att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/fhcXgm74u3D98aYlbF_u2SYgfgM Cc: Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-wilde-xml-patch-08 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:06:27 -0000 hello tony. On 2014-03-25, 8:53 , Tony Hansen wrote: > This is a review of draft-wilde-xml-patch-08. thanks a lot for the review! i have just posted an updated version of the draft (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wilde-xml-patch-09), and here are my responses to your review: > Actually, on rereading the abstract, I'm thinking it would be better > expressed like the following. The primary focus of the I-D is the > document format itself. The media type registration is a secondary > consideration. In the following, I tried not to change your points, just > the ordering and emphasis. thanks for the suggestion, and i think your text is an improvement. i have changed the abstract as suggested. > >>>>Nit: More white space would be useful around the XML segments, to > offset them more. i agree, but that's more a problem of xml2rfc which seems to have problems formatting
properly. for now, i'll leave it as it is (since the XML source is correct), and then this can be addressed in the final production stage. > >>>>Minor: I STILL feel that section 2.2 would read better if it shows > a before and after example of applying the principle described there. i have added the examples as suggested, showing all three documents (target document, patch document, result document). the patch document is a bit different than the one shown in RFC 5261, because it uses a different document element and a namespace. > >>>>Nit: Appendix A > "It described" => "It describes" > >>>>Nit: Appendix A.1 > "XMPL Patch" => "XML Patch" fixed. > >>>>Minor. Appendix C > There needs to be a pointer to the ABNF spec, RFC 5234, where things > like DIGIT and DQUOTE are defined. i have added a reference to RFC 5234, and added a sentence pointing out that DIGIT and DQUOTE are used as defined there. thanks again and cheers, dret. -- erik wilde | mailto:dret@berkeley.edu - tel:+1-510-2061079 | | UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) | | http://dret.net/netdret http://twitter.com/dret | From nobody Tue Mar 25 11:08:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5541A0171 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N08iJJgU_CqC for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from egssmtp03.att.com (egssmtp03.att.com [144.160.128.152]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3A11A018D for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by egssmtp03.att.com ( egs 8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2PI7fFl009515 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:07:45 -0700 Received: from vpn-135-70-98-244.vpn.swst.att.com ([135.70.98.244]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20140325180739gw100j0cble>; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:07:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.98.244] Message-ID: <5331C5EA.5070306@att.com> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:07:38 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erik Wilde References: <52F00EFC.1060702@rfc-editor.org> <532C7FB6.2000203@rfc-editor.org> <5331A66A.9060505@att.com> <5331B78A.9000408@berkeley.edu> In-Reply-To: <5331B78A.9000408@berkeley.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/kXgzqnZTu7j75ABaCYZWn0GNVtg Cc: Apps-Discusssion , Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-wilde-xml-patch-08 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:07:50 -0000 Wow, fast response. :-) One nit in the abstract, which turns out to be my fault in my previously suggested text: This specification defines the also provides the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the to This specification >>><<< also provides the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the or This specification >>><<< also defines the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the This one can be fixed in AUTH48 if necessary. Everything else looks fine with me. Tony On 3/25/14, 1:06 PM, Erik Wilde wrote: > hello tony. > > On 2014-03-25, 8:53 , Tony Hansen wrote: >> This is a review of draft-wilde-xml-patch-08. > > thanks a lot for the review! i have just posted an updated version of > the draft (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wilde-xml-patch-09), and > here are my responses to your review: > >> Actually, on rereading the abstract, I'm thinking it would be better >> expressed like the following. The primary focus of the I-D is the >> document format itself. The media type registration is a secondary >> consideration. In the following, I tried not to change your points, just >> the ordering and emphasis. > > thanks for the suggestion, and i think your text is an improvement. i > have changed the abstract as suggested. > >> >>>>Nit: More white space would be useful around the XML segments, to >> offset them more. > > i agree, but that's more a problem of xml2rfc which seems to have > problems formatting
properly. for now, i'll leave it > as it is (since the XML source is correct), and then this can be > addressed in the final production stage. > >> >>>>Minor: I STILL feel that section 2.2 would read better if it shows >> a before and after example of applying the principle described there. > > i have added the examples as suggested, showing all three documents > (target document, patch document, result document). the patch document > is a bit different than the one shown in RFC 5261, because it uses a > different document element and a namespace. > >> >>>>Nit: Appendix A >> "It described" => "It describes" >> >>>>Nit: Appendix A.1 >> "XMPL Patch" => "XML Patch" > > fixed. > >> >>>>Minor. Appendix C >> There needs to be a pointer to the ABNF spec, RFC 5234, where things >> like DIGIT and DQUOTE are defined. > > i have added a reference to RFC 5234, and added a sentence pointing > out that DIGIT and DQUOTE are used as defined there. > > thanks again and cheers, > > dret. > From nobody Tue Mar 25 12:20:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F121A01EC; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5T3BO5-L-RL; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2411A01F8; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.2.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140325192041.22394.55257.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:41 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/vgAnNLmv9rCxaRHQenNSVRZ8jqE Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-09.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:20:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Require-Recipient-Valid-Since Header Field and SMTP Service Extension Authors : William J. Mills Murray S. Kucherawy Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-09.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2014-03-25 Abstract: This document defines an extension for the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol called RRVS, and a header field called Require-Recipient- Valid-Since, to provide a method for senders to indicate to receivers a point in time when the the ownership of the target mailbox was known to the sender. This can be used to detect changes of mailbox ownership, and thus prevent mail from being delivered to the wrong party. The intended use of these facilities is on automatically generated messages, such as account statements or password change instructions, that might contain sensitive information, though it may also be useful in other applications. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Mar 25 16:33:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B6B1A0254 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:33:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykbNDu_AkOZZ for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm04fe.IST.Berkeley.EDU (cm04fe.IST.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.218.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCC81A0221 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 108-67-65-66.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net ([108.67.65.66] helo=[192.168.1.76]) by cm04fe.ist.berkeley.edu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (auth plain:dret@berkeley.edu) (envelope-from ) id 1WSaqT-0006a9-FW; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:33:27 -0700 Message-ID: <53321243.6020304@berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:33:23 -0700 From: Erik Wilde User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hansen References: <52F00EFC.1060702@rfc-editor.org> <532C7FB6.2000203@rfc-editor.org> <5331A66A.9060505@att.com> <5331B78A.9000408@berkeley.edu> <5331C5EA.5070306@att.com> In-Reply-To: <5331C5EA.5070306@att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/i9HU8yh7l24vdptKfNT_OWFcUho Cc: Apps-Discusssion , Nevil Brownlee Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] draft-wilde-xml-patch-08 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 23:33:32 -0000 hello tony. On 2014-03-25, 11:07 , Tony Hansen wrote: > One nit in the abstract, which turns out to be my fault in my previously > suggested text: > This specification defines the also provides > the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the > to > This specification >>><<< also provides > the media type registration "application/xml-patch+xml", to allow the many thanks for checking again! https://github.com/dret/I-D/commit/472df96e19f661edfaedb23eeccab5a5615802ad fixes this issue, and i will use this either for a -10 draft, or as the starting point for the final publishing process. thanks again, dret. -- erik wilde | mailto:dret@berkeley.edu - tel:+1-510-2061079 | | UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) | | http://dret.net/netdret http://twitter.com/dret | From nobody Wed Mar 26 07:26:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C8D1A0107 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ym0Eo4XKMkYV for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc3-s41.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s41.snt0.hotmail.com [65.54.51.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70491A00E3 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W84 ([65.55.90.135]) by snt0-omc3-s41.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:25:58 -0700 X-TMN: [28TxyaanvemTmG9NPe3f7HZpLIcrKoYY] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_e3503699-ff44-4e01-bcfd-3dbd4c15db51_" From: Brian Aberle To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "superuser@gmail.com" , "peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca" , "hsantos@isdg.net" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 08:25:57 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> ,<53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2014 14:25:58.0053 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E0F7550:01CF48FF] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/tp2aJR-LfKPA0lJRL_jwXYaJkCQ Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 14:26:07 -0000 --_e3503699-ff44-4e01-bcfd-3dbd4c15db51_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HELP! STMP is failing. Yesterday I put out in invitation for ya'll to jum= p on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I guess I got kicked off the forum b= ecause when I email the group it does not get delivered. Today the servers= at OASIS that host the open and unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list failed = to work. The message in its entirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is = provided here so that honest internet admins can debug this failure. It wa= s just one message in a thread that was getting noisy. At best=2C the servers failed to operate as designed=2C at worst this is ce= nsorship and the proof is published here. =20 --------------------> I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] <-------------------= ------- I looked at their website=2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see tha= t they have someone who knows=20 whats going on with XML in a variety of applications that works there. I c= ame to [xml-dev] in hopes of=20 that exact thing=2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear their commen= ts. Is there a politically=20 proper way to invite them in here for a comment? Perhaps that they don't h= ang out in [xml-dev] being=20 busy with their own forums and do not even know that we are talking about t= hem behind their back here. =20 =20 I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT. =20 Yesterday=2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please= take a look at the past few=20 days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. Can we assemble the chiefs for a po= w wow? =20 Where are the chiefs? Can we name them and call them out or is that not ko= sher? =20 Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical= Information System) project. =20 Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO of the project. He might reme= mber me. I was the guy who=20 Paul interrupted while I was presenting this to the Board and all of projec= t management. He threw my=20 whole scripted skit off=2C but I put on a live show instead. =20 Brian --------------------> I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] <-------------------= ------- =20 _________________________________________________________ Note: the actions of one anonymous moderator may not reflect that of the gr= oup. _________________________________________________________ =20 =20 X-TMN: [gZdIa+8JiF7i3f0xOjFLIdmgP7jSFnCk] X-Originating-Email: [xmlboss@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative=3B boundary=3D"_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_" From: Brian Aberle To: Stephen Cameron CC: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing Date: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 07:17:22 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <20140324153008031539.2f6f113f@talsever.com> <113B01AA8D44482EA7AD098005ADD4CF@LenBullardPro> <6b84j9pbacms21n6l55vac4hrr7p1jrac9@4ax.com> =2C MIME-Version: 1.0 --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_ Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked at their website=3D2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see t= ha=3D t they have someone who knows whats going on with XML in a variety of appli= =3D cations that works there. I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing= =3D =3D2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear their comments. Is there = a =3D politically proper way to invite them in here for a comment? Perhaps that = =3D they don't hang out in [xml-dev] being busy with their own forums and do no= =3D t even know that we are talking about them behind their back here. =3D20 =3D20 I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT. =3D20 Yesterday=3D2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to plea= se=3D take a look at the past few days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. Can we= =3D assemble the chiefs for a pow wow? =3D20 Where are the chiefs? Can we name them and call them out or is that not ko= =3D sher? =3D20 Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical= =3D Information System) project. Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO= =3D of the project. He might remember me. I was the guy who Paul interrupted= =3D while I was presenting this to the Board and all of project management. H= =3D e threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put on a live show instead. =3D20 Brian =3D20 Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100 From: steve.cameron.62@gmail.com To: arjun.ray@verizon.net CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing Sounds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think? http://www.deltaxml.com/ =3D --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_ Content-Type: text/html=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I looked at their website=3D= 2C (fo=3D r 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see that they have someone who knows wh= =3D ats going on with XML in a variety of applications =3D3Bthat works ther= e.=3D  =3D3B I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing=3D2C so I agree= - I=3D would be interested to hear their comments. =3D3B =3D3BIs there a&= nbsp=3D =3D3Bpolitically proper =3D3Bway to invite them in here for a comment?&= nbsp=3D =3D3B Perhaps that they don't hang out =3D3Bin [xml-dev] =3D3Bbeing= busy =3D with their own forums and do not even know that we are talking about them b= =3D ehind their back here. =3D3B
 =3D3B
I Believe what you are b= ring=3D ing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.
 =3D3B
Yesterday=3D2= C I =3D asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please take a look at= =3D the past few days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. =3D3B Can we assem= bl=3D e the chiefs for a pow wow?
 =3D3B
Where are the chiefs? =3D3= B Ca=3D n we name them and call them out or is that not kosher?
 =3D3B
Ye= st=3D erday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical Inf= =3D ormation System) project. =3D3B Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to b= e =3D CTO of the project. =3D3B He might remember me. =3D3B I was the guy= who=3D Paul interrupted while I was presenting this to the Board and all of proje= =3D ct management. =3D3B He threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put= on =3D a live show instead.
 =3D3B
Brian
 =3D3B
Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100
From: steve.cameron= .6=3D 2@gmail.com
To: arjun.ray@verizon.net
CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Su= =3D bject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing

S= ou=3D nds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think?

http://www.deltaxml.com= /

 =3D3B
= =3D
=3D --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_-- =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 > Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 08:54:25 -0400 > From: hsantos@isdg.net > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca > CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing >=20 > Brian=2C >=20 > I've a little (maybe a lot) unsure of what you are asking for. Are=20 > you asking for permission to write an IETF-based I-D (individual=20 > draft) documenting your XML solution? Which appears to be an "add-on"=20 > enhancement or optimizer? or it just a better parser? >=20 > If the later=2C thats software -- it sounds like you are trying to=20 > "sell=2C push=2C and/or market" a specific parser library called=20 > XMLFoundation. >=20 > I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of=20 > "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC format.=20 > But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended and=20 > generically beneficial to all. >=20 > XML Parser Libraries can vary tremendously and for us=2C the specific=20 > XML parser used depends on the application=2C tool or need. For example= =2C=20 > if the development environment does not already have a built-in XML=20 > parser=2C then we might consider using PUGXML.H which is a very popular= =2C=20 > C/C++ portable=2C lightweight=2C small footprint XML parser. In general= =20 > XML libraries are "fat" and huge=2C and pug comes in handy. PUGXML is=20 > documented at Code Project and if you do a search=2C you can see it has=20 > evolved with "add-on" solutions as well: >=20 > http://www.codeproject.com/search.aspx?q=3DPugXML&doctypeid=3D1%3b2%3b3%3= b13%3b14%3b9%3b10 >=20 > So the rethorical queston is should the IETF begin documenting=20 > "pseudo-standard" coding methods such as XML and specifically=20 > libraries like PugXML=2C XMLFoundation? >=20 > Finally=2C not getting into detail=2C it sounds like you want a specific= =20 > "token" or attribute added to an XML node in order to improve or=20 > optimize the "finding" of nodes? >=20 > Again=2C thats sounds more like a specific software library issue. If=20 > the solution requires your "library" that to me=2C isn't generally IETF= =20 > material because its not something everyone can use. If you are=20 > suggesting that the method used in your functions be published as an=20 > open standard for other parsers to implement=2C then perhaps that may be= =20 > of interest to XML parser developers. >=20 >=20 > -- > HLS >=20 >=20 > On 3/24/2014 9:35 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > Peter=2C > > > > As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for the > > warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com on that > > thread. You IETF folks are not chatty at all compared to them. > > Yesterday was all about 'RFC for XML Object Parsing'. I got some good > > feedback and got closer toward an official answer to what this concept > > is (Protocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with > > polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation here: > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation and no summary > > or even clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years > > of work. I will put together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive > > Summary' / 'Internet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community > > consensus on the various views of the basic concept which must define > > the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary > > here (followed by a recap of this thread here): > > > > Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this: > > __________________ > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong > > here. I wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 > > and I wrote my own XSLT - but I don't claim to know it all about XML > > even though folks with lesser study than me claim to know all about > > XML. Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this: > > > > Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a set > > of communication rules. When two parties agree on the specific use > > of a generic markup language like XML=2C they have agreed on a > > protocol. Is everyone with me so far? With this 'definition' of a > > protocol=2C your XML parser should be 'unaware' of any specific protoco= l > > as it deals with the general aspects of XML. > > > > I propose adding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community > > feedback about it. It would work like this: > > > > The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it > > appears as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have > > parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to > > obtain the memory location (or application layer object instances) > > that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory copy > > into a tree or DOM structure. This is not the syntax that my > > implementation uses but seems to convey the concept very well ( > @oid=3D"123"/>) > > > > It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" > > naturally because the iterations to the temporary structure are > > eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses > > neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX that > > avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token > > type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to > > getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times > > faster than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the > > most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml > > integration. > > > > The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once > > clearly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a > > protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML > > along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1 > > > > An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that ther= e is > > a second keyword used with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword > > used=2C it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's > > "If-Modified-Since". This HTTP analogy may help some with the > > conceptual summary of what we are attempting to summarize. > > > > Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". If we call it B) an implementation. Now we have two XML's > > a fast one and a slow one. A new one and an old one. The new XML is > > 100% backwards compatible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The > > important thing is to understand the concept. > > > > > > 1 > > ..... > > > > > > Normally we would call "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this > > case. It's a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an > > attribute named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not > > in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key. > > > > The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBMS index can be keyed ove= r > > multiple columns - likewise the "oid" can be a concatenation of > > several columns that make it a unique Object ID. An application using > > an ConfigFile.xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not > > designed to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless > > they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use. > > > > Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "foos". Suppose that list is ver= y > > very long. 1 Terabyte. Suppose that you get updated XML source of that > > list every 15 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some > > foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire > > update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new "foo's". > > The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory storage if it can > > make a connection between the cached instance and an "oid". > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > > > Brian Aberle > > __________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 > > > > Hi Brian=2C > > > > Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C > > xml-dev also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C > > > > who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally > > than here. > > > > Cheers=2C > > > > Peter Rushforth > > > > *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > > Of *Brian Aberle > > *Sent:* March 20=2C 2014 02:06 > > *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B > > apps-discuss@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had > > conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because > > it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes > > the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first > > attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out yet in > > that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory > > location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will > > parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like > > structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory > > copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary > > structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the > > tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative > > to SAX that avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on > > the token type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls > > to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's > > > > Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". I have gone to much effort to try to communicate this > > clearly=2C and developed a simple little example that breaks it all dow= n > > into numbers that you can see and understand. The examples build on > > Linux and Windows=2C > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > SO Folks=2C > > > > I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about > > this. Am I in the right place? > > > > Brian Aberle > > _______________________________________________________________________= ______ > > > > > >>On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C> wrote: > >> > >>Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C= and not us? > > > > > > > >> On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos> wrote: > > > >> > >> I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to > >> document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of > >> "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of > >> interest. > >> > >> I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to > >> include application level recommended design=2C implementation and > >> deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" > >> and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of > >> communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a > >> "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The > >> increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" > >> methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. > > > > Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle > > wrote: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 > > From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > EAGAIN > > > > errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF > > > > > > On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > > > Hi world=2C > > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in > > my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for > > that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All > > .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all > > this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is > > not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because > > we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C > > just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the > > new guy=2C I don't know. I put together a very complete example and > > implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my > > first posting: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an > > Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. > > This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF > > Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is > > stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is > > that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this > > spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be > > equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an > > Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bi= t. > > > > World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the num= bers in > > the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock > > fight id put all my money on 777. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to > > SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show > > performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or > > DOM. There are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for > > "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in > > discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? > > Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. > > The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". > > > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must > > also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor > > Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things > > that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using > > CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). > > This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this > > thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D2047= 21 > > > > Most recent reply > > : > > Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we > > resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the > > question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2I have > > received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of > > that article over the past decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML > > doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and > > refined all encompassing open source implementation. > > > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization > > of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - > > fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. > > "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in > > implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or > > perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more complex > > implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two > > public threads over the past decade. > > > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from > > re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for > > it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but > > collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC > > for this? That is the question. > > > > World=2C what do you think? >=20 >=20 = --_e3503699-ff44-4e01-bcfd-3dbd4c15db51_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HELP! =3B STMP is failing.&n= bsp=3B Yesterday I put out in invitation for ya'll to jump on the thread at= [xml-dev] but today I guess I got kicked off the forum because when I emai= l the group it does not get delivered. =3B Today the servers at OASIS t= hat host the open and unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list failed to work.&nb= sp=3B The message in its entirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is prov= ided here so that honest internet admins can debug this failure. =3B It= was just one message in a thread that was getting noisy.

At best=2C= the servers failed to operate as designed=2C at worst this is censorship a= nd the proof is published here.
 =3B
-------------------->=3B&n= bsp=3B =3B I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] =3B =3B =3B =3B &= lt=3B--------------------------
I looked at their website=2C (for 5-10 m= inutes) and clearly I could see that they have someone who knows
whats = going on with XML in a variety of applications that works there. =3B I = came to [xml-dev] in hopes of
that exact thing=2C so I agree - I would = be interested to hear their comments. =3B Is there a politically
pr= oper way to invite them in here for a comment? =3B Perhaps that they do= n't hang out in [xml-dev] being
busy with their own forums and do not e= ven know that we are talking about them behind their back here. =3B  =3B
I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHOR= UTY INPUT.
 =3B
Yesterday=2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-= discuss] at IETF to please take a look at the past few
days at [xml-dev= ] for the same reason. =3B Can we assemble the chiefs for a pow wow? =3B
Where are the chiefs? =3B Can we name them and call them o= ut or is that not kosher?
 =3B
Yesterday I saw someone question t= he reality of the NCIS (National Clinical Information System) project. = =3B
Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO of the project. = =3B He might remember me. =3B I was the guy who
Paul interrupted wh= ile I was presenting this to the Board and all of project management. = =3B He threw my
whole scripted skit off=2C but I put on a live show ins= tead.
 =3B
Brian
-------------------->=3B =3B =3B I = WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] =3B =3B =3B =3B <=3B------------= --------------
 =3B
_____________________________________________= ____________
Note: the actions of one anonymous moderator may not reflec= t that of the group.
___________________________________________________= ______
 =3B
 =3B
X-TMN: [gZdIa+8JiF7i3f0xOjFLIdmgP7jSFnCk]=
X-Originating-Email: [xmlboss@live.com]
Message-ID: <=3BSNT146-W1753E634204065= 9D670D59D7640@phx.gbl>=3B
Content-Type: multipart/alternative=3B =3Bboundary=3D"_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_"
From: Bria= n Aberle <=3Bxmlboss@live.com>= =3B
To: Stephen Cameron <=3Bsteve.cameron.62@gmail.com>=3B
CC: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" <=3Bxml-dev@lists.xml.org>=3B
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RFC= for XML Object Parsing
Date: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 07:17:22 -0600
Impor= tance: Normal
In-Reply-To:
 =3B<=3BCAG=3Dut6KUsE= gQ18Ne8oBjSQ+Q7EFXMmNz3bJVeY4Bv4UKD=3DpcwQ@mail.gmail.com>=3B
Refe= rences: <=3B20140324153008031539.2f6f113f@talsever.com>=3B
 =3B<=3B113B01AA8D444= 82EA7AD098005ADD4CF@LenBullardPro>=3B
 =3B<=3B6b84j9pbacms21n6l55vac4hrr7= p1jrac9@4ax.com>=3B
 =3B<=3BSNT146-W769C1ABEAFF198B7DF7851D7640@phx.gbl<= /a>>=3B
 =3B<=3B=2Cdsf4j9h44mo7kjl8nh120pfqulnjn2f5vq@4ax.com>=3B=2C<=3BCAG= =3Dut6KUsEgQ18Ne8oBjSQ+Q7EFXMmNz3bJVeY4Bv4UKD=3DpcwQ@mail.gmail.com>= =3B
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encodin= g: quoted-printable
I looked at their website=3D2C (for 5-10 minutes) an= d clearly I could see tha=3D
t they have someone who knows whats going o= n with XML in a variety of appli=3D
cations that works there. =3B I = came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing=3D
=3D2C so I agree - I w= ould be interested to hear their comments. =3B Is there a =3D
politi= cally proper way to invite them in here for a comment? =3B Perhaps that= =3D
they don't hang out in [xml-dev] being busy with their own forums a= nd do no=3D
t even know that we are talking about them behind their back= here. =3D20
=3D20
I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need= MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.
=3D20
Yesterday=3D2C I asked folks who hang ou= t at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please=3D
 =3Btake a look at the past= few days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. =3B Can we=3D
 =3Bas= semble the chiefs for a pow wow?
=3D20
Where are the chiefs? =3B = Can we name them and call them out or is that not ko=3D
sher?
=3D20Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinic= al=3D
 =3BInformation System) project. =3B Paul Fingerman left f= rom NASA just to be CTO=3D
 =3Bof the project. =3B He might reme= mber me. =3B I was the guy who Paul interrupted=3D
 =3Bwhile I w= as presenting this to the Board and all of project management. =3B H=3D=
e threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put on a live show instea= d.
=3D20
Brian
=3D20
Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100<= br>From: steve.cameron.62@gma= il.com
To: arjun.ray@verizo= n.net
CC: xml-dev@lists.xml= .org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing
Sounds goo= d to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think?
http://www.deltaxml.com/
 =3B  =3B = =3B  =3B =3B =3B  =3B =3B =3B =3D
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<=3Bhtml>=3B
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<=3Bstyle>=3B<=3B!--
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-->=3B<=3B/style>=3B<=3B/head&= gt=3B
<=3Bbody class=3D3D'hmmessage'>=3B<=3Bdiv dir=3D3D'ltr'>= =3BI looked at their website=3D2C (fo=3D
r 5-10 minutes) and clearly I c= ould see that they have someone who knows wh=3D
ats going on with XML in= a variety of applications&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bthat works there.=3D
&=3Bnb= sp=3D3B I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing=3D2C so I agree - = I=3D
 =3Bwould be interested to hear their comments.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B= &=3Bnbsp=3D3BIs there a&=3Bnbsp=3D
=3D3Bpolitically proper&=3Bn= bsp=3D3Bway to invite them in here for a comment?&=3Bnbsp=3D
=3D3B Pe= rhaps that they don't hang out&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bin [xml-dev]&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bb= eing busy =3D
with their own forums and do not even know that we are tal= king about them b=3D
ehind their back here.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B <=3BBR>= =3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BI Believe what you are bring=3D
ing up = is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR= >=3BYesterday=3D2C I =3D
asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at= IETF to please take a look at=3D
 =3Bthe past few days at [xml-dev]= for the same reason.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B Can we assembl=3D
e the chiefs for= a pow wow?<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BWhere are the chiefs= ?&=3Bnbsp=3D3B Ca=3D
n we name them and call them out or is that not = kosher?<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BYest=3D
erday I saw s= omeone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical Inf=3D
ormati= on System) project.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to b= e =3D
CTO of the project.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B He might remember me.&=3Bnb= sp=3D3B I was the guy who=3D
 =3BPaul interrupted while I was presen= ting this to the Board and all of proje=3D
ct management.&=3Bnbsp=3D3= B He threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put on =3D
a live show = instead.<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BBrian<=3BBR>=3B&= =3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3B<=3Bdiv>=3B<=3Bhr id=3D3D"sto=3D
pSpelli= ng">=3BDate: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100<=3Bbr>=3BFrom: steve= .cameron.6=3D
To">2@gmail.com<=3Bbr&g= t=3BTo: CC">arjun.ray@verizo= n.net<=3Bbr>=3BCC: Su">x= ml-dev@lists.xml.org<=3Bbr>=3BSu=3D
bject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for= XML Object Parsing<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Bdiv dir=3D3D"ltr">= =3BSou=3D
nds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think?= <=3Bbr>=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Ba href=3D
=3D3D"http://www.deltaxml.com/" target=3D3D"_blank">=3Bhttp:= //www.deltaxml.com/<=3B/a=3D
>=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3B/div>=3B<= =3Bdiv class=3D3D"ecxgmail_extra">=3B<=3Bbr>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3B= /div>=3B<=3B/div>=3B  =3B =3B  =3B =3B =3B  = =3B =3B=3D
 =3B <=3B/div>=3B<=3B/body>=3B
<=3B/html= >=3B=3D
--_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_--
 =3B
&nbs= p=3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B

 =3B
>=3B Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 08:54:25 -0400
>=3B From: hsantos@is= dg.net
>=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca=
>=3B CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com
>=3B Subje= ct: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B
>=3B Brian= =2C
>=3B
>=3B I've a little (maybe a lot) unsure of what you are= asking for. Are
>=3B you asking for permission to write an IETF-bas= ed I-D (individual
>=3B draft) documenting your XML solution? Which = appears to be an "add-on"
>=3B enhancement or optimizer? or it just a= better parser?
>=3B
>=3B If the later=2C thats software -- it s= ounds like you are trying to
>=3B "sell=2C push=2C and/or market" a s= pecific parser library called
>=3B XMLFoundation.
>=3B
>= =3B I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of >=3B "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC forma= t.
>=3B But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended= and
>=3B generically beneficial to all.
>=3B
>=3B XML Par= ser Libraries can vary tremendously and for us=2C the specific
>=3B X= ML parser used depends on the application=2C tool or need. For example=2C <= br>>=3B if the development environment does not already have a built-in X= ML
>=3B parser=2C then we might consider using PUGXML.H which is a ve= ry popular=2C
>=3B C/C++ portable=2C lightweight=2C small footprint X= ML parser. In general
>=3B XML libraries are "fat" and huge=2C and p= ug comes in handy. PUGXML is
>=3B documented at Code Project and if = you do a search=2C you can see it has
>=3B evolved with "add-on" solu= tions as well:
>=3B
>=3B http://www.codeproject.com/search.aspx?= q=3DPugXML&=3Bdoctypeid=3D1%3b2%3b3%3b13%3b14%3b9%3b10
>=3B
>= =3B So the rethorical queston is should the IETF begin documenting
>= =3B "pseudo-standard" coding methods such as XML and specifically
>= =3B libraries like PugXML=2C XMLFoundation?
>=3B
>=3B Finally=2C= not getting into detail=2C it sounds like you want a specific
>=3B "= token" or attribute added to an XML node in order to improve or
>=3B = optimize the "finding" of nodes?
>=3B
>=3B Again=2C thats sounds= more like a specific software library issue. If
>=3B the solution re= quires your "library" that to me=2C isn't generally IETF
>=3B materi= al because its not something everyone can use. If you are
>=3B sugges= ting that the method used in your functions be published as an
>=3B o= pen standard for other parsers to implement=2C then perhaps that may be >=3B of interest to XML parser developers.
>=3B
>=3B
>= =3B --
>=3B HLS
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B On 3/24/2014 9:35 AM= =2C Brian Aberle wrote:
>=3B >=3B Peter=2C
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for t= he
>=3B >=3B warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com <=3Bmailto:XMLBoss@liv= e.com>=3B on that
>=3B >=3B thread. You IETF folks are not chatty= at all compared to them.
>=3B >=3B Yesterday was all about 'RFC for= XML Object Parsing'. I got some good
>=3B >=3B feedback and got cl= oser toward an official answer to what this concept
>=3B >=3B is (Pr= otocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with
>=3B= >=3B polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation h= ere:
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundati= on and no summary
>=3B >=3B or even clear definition of this project= is that represents 14 years
>=3B >=3B of work. I will put together= such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive
>=3B >=3B Summary' / 'Internet Dr= aft' kind of paper once I have some community
>=3B >=3B consensus on= the various views of the basic concept which must define
>=3B >=3B = the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary
>= =3B >=3B here (followed by a recap of this thread here):
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this:
>=3B >=3B _= _________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I need an XML expert to correct me if I have an= y terminology wrong
>=3B >=3B here. I wrote my first two XML parser= s before W3C finalized XML 1.0
>=3B >=3B and I wrote my own XSLT - b= ut I don't claim to know it all about XML
>=3B >=3B even though folk= s with lesser study than me claim to know all about
>=3B >=3B XML. = Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this:
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a = set
>=3B >=3B of communication rules. When two parties agree on the = specific use
>=3B >=3B of a generic markup language like XML=2C they= have agreed on a
>=3B >=3B protocol. Is everyone with me so far? = With this 'definition' of a
>=3B >=3B protocol=2C your XML parser sh= ould be 'unaware' of any specific protocol
>=3B >=3B as it deals wit= h the general aspects of XML.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I propose a= dding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community
>=3B >=3B f= eedback about it. It would work like this:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it>=3B >=3B appears as the first attribute (because that is the only to= ken we have
>=3B >=3B parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Objec= t ID" can be used to
>=3B >=3B obtain the memory location (or applic= ation layer object instances)
>=3B >=3B that the XML will parse dire= ctly into with no temporary memory copy
>=3B >=3B into a tree or DOM= structure. This is not the syntax that my
>=3B >=3B implementation= uses but seems to convey the concept very well (<=3Bfoo
>=3B >= =3B @oid=3D"123"/>=3B)
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B It's OVER twice = as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design"
>=3B >=3B natur= ally because the iterations to the temporary structure are
>=3B >=3B= eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses>=3B >=3B neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to S= AX that
>=3B >=3B avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depe= nding on the token
>=3B >=3B type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX de= sign only makes calls to
>=3B >=3B getToken(token *p) to pull the da= ta over a 1 argument call stack.
>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would push = via too many argument that compile down to
>=3B >=3B needless push's= ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times
>=3B >=3B faster = than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the
>=3B &g= t=3B most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml<= br>>=3B >=3B integration.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The first p= riority is to understand this concept clearly. Once
>=3B >=3B clear= ly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a
>=3B &= gt=3B protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML=
>=3B >=3B along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B An interesting point of analogy with "oid"= =3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that there is
>=3B >=3B a second keyword used wi= th "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword
>=3B >=3B used=2C it is "= UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's
>=3B >=3B "If-Modified-Sin= ce". This HTTP analogy may help some with the
>=3B >=3B conceptual = summary of what we are attempting to summarize.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B = >=3B Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that th= e XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to im= plement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". If we call it B) an implementatio= n. Now we have two XML's
>=3B >=3B a fast one and a slow one. A ne= w one and an old one. The new XML is
>=3B >=3B 100% backwards compat= ible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The
>=3B >=3B importan= t thing is to understand the concept.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B <= =3BCustomer oid=3D'1'>=3B
>=3B >=3B <=3BCustomerID>=3B1= <=3B/CustomerID>=3B
>=3B >=3B .....
>=3B >=3B <= =3B/Customer>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Normally we would call= "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this
>=3B >=3B case. It's a= positional keyword in the XML. For example if an
>=3B >=3B attribu= te named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not
>=3B &g= t=3B in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key.
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBM= S index can be keyed over
>=3B >=3B multiple columns - likewise the = "oid" can be a concatenation of
>=3B >=3B several columns that make = it a unique Object ID. An application using
>=3B >=3B an ConfigFile= .xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not
>=3B >=3B desig= ned to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless
>=3B= >=3B they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use.=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "f= oos". Suppose that list is very
>=3B >=3B very long. 1 Terabyte. Su= ppose that you get updated XML source of that
>=3B >=3B list every 1= 5 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some
>=3B >= =3B foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire
&g= t=3B >=3B update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new = "foo's".
>=3B >=3B The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory= storage if it can
>=3B >=3B make a connection between the cached in= stance and an "oid".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:
= >=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&= amp=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >= =3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B= >=3B A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technolo= gy
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Brian Aberle
>=3B = >=3B __________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>=3B >=3B From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNC= an.gc.ca
>=3B >=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org>=3B >=3B Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B Hi Brian=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Although they can = be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C
>=3B >=3B xml-de= v also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps mor= e informally
>=3B >=3B than here.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = Cheers=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Peter Rushforth
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.= org] *On Behalf
>=3B >=3B Of *Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B *Sent:* = March 20=2C 2014 02:06
>=3B >=3B *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail= .com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B
>=3B >=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>= =3B >=3B *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had<= br>>=3B >=3B conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself= because
>=3B >=3B it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The t= okenizer recognizes
>=3B >=3B the special keyword attribute "oid" ON= LY if it appears as the first
>=3B >=3B attribute (because that is t= he only token we have parsed out yet in
>=3B >=3B that element) Now = the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory
>=3B >=3B location = (or application layer object instances) that the XML will
>=3B >=3B = parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like
>= =3B >=3B structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "mem= ory
>=3B >=3B copy design" naturally because the iterations to the t= emporary
>=3B >=3B structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 time= s as fast because the
>=3B >=3B tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM= =2C but a more efficient alternative
>=3B >=3B to SAX that avoids pu= shing a variable number of arguments depending on
>=3B >=3B the toke= n type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls
>=3B &g= t=3B to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack.>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile= down to
>=3B >=3B needless push's ands pop's
>=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "o= id" it
>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protoco= l that the XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other = way to implement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". I have gone to much effo= rt to try to communicate this
>=3B >=3B clearly=2C and developed a s= imple little example that breaks it all down
>=3B >=3B into numbers = that you can see and understand. The examples build on
>=3B >=3B Li= nux and Windows=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:
&g= t=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B = <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3B= authkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >= =3B Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology
>= =3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B SO Folks=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I= want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about
>=3B &= gt=3B this. Am I in the right place?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Bri= an Aberle
>=3B >=3B ________________________________________________= _____________________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3BOn Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C<=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com &= lt=3Bmailto:superuser@gmail.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3BAren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the p= urview of the W3C and not us?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos= <=3Bhsantos@isdg.net <=3Bmailto:hsantos@isdg.net>=3B>=3B wrote:
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B I think we migh= t be seeing what I have found is a new need just to
>=3B >=3B>=3B = document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all si= zes of
>=3B >=3B>=3B interest.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begi= n to
>=3B >=3B>=3B include application level recommended design=2C= implementation and
>=3B >=3B>=3B deployment methods proposals. No= t everything has to be a "standard"
>=3B >=3B>=3B and these days= =2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
>=3B >=3B>=3B com= munications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=
>=3B >=3B>=3B increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise hig= her overhead "data"
>=3B >=3B>=3B methods to be a non-issue and a = natural part of an I/O protocol.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Tue=2C 4= Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com
>=3B = >=3B <=3Bmailto:xml4ietf@live.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B -----------------------------------------------------------= -----------
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21= :36 -0800
>=3B >=3B From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
>=3B >=3B Subj= ect: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B To: xml4= ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B <=3Bmailto:apps-d= iscuss@ietf.org>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B EAGAIN
>=3B &g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM= =2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B Hi world=2C
>=3B >=3B It's me again. I'll just be hone= st here. Ive never took the time in
>=3B >=3B my whole career to be= on an IETF list - but don't count me out for
>=3B >=3B that. Isn't= this the place where the old school masters kick it? All
>=3B >=3B= .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all
= >=3B >=3B this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock= 's is
>=3B >=3B not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have = moderators because
>=3B >=3B we know that cock fighting is real. I = don't know if ya'll are shy=2C
>=3B >=3B just not real chatty=2C or = are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the
>=3B >=3B new guy=2C I = don't know. I put together a very complete example and
>=3B >=3B im= plementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my
>= =3B >=3B first posting:
>=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?= resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid= =3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World - Would it be = helpful if I put all this together into an
>=3B >=3B Internet Draft = to obtain feedback? That is the new question.
>=3B >=3B This overvi= ew in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF
>=3B >= =3B Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is
>=3B >=3B stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFou= ndation
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The OLD question was "Should we h= ave an RFC for this?"
>=3B >=3B The NEW question is "Should this be = put into an Internet Draft?" Is
>=3B >=3B that necessary? to get th= e attention of cocks that squawk in this
>=3B >=3B spot? I asked the= apps-discuss admins who said that it could be
>=3B >=3B equally as = effective to get good discussion going as it would an
>=3B >=3B Inte= rnet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bit.
&g= t=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C a= nything? Look at the numbers in
>=3B >=3B the example program ExInd= exObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock
>=3B >=3B fight id put = all my money on 777.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------= --------------------------------------------------
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B From: xml4ietf@live.com
>=3B >=3B To: apps-discuss@ietf.o= rg
>=3B >=3B Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B Dat= e: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hell= o World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I am seeking community feedbac= k regarding an official alternative to
>=3B >=3B SAX and DOM. I hav= e put together several examples that show
>=3B >=3B performance numb= ers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or
>=3B >=3B DOM. T= here are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for
>=3B &g= t=3B "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in
&= gt=3B >=3B discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for= this?
>=3B >=3B Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep in= venting the wheel.
>=3B >=3B The concept is simple. It is "XML Seri= alization".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B XMLObject Parsing? We don't = need to invent new words=2C but we must
>=3B >=3B also note that "Se= rialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor
>=3B >=3B Object= Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things
>=3B &g= t=3B that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using>=3B >=3B CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS p= roject).
>=3B >=3B This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Str= oustrup in this
>=3B >=3B thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.= jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Mos= t recent reply
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp= ?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721&=3Bstart=3D15#366941>=3B:
>=3B= >=3B Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp= ://www.artima.com/profile.jsp?user=3D70450>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B= >=3B I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where= we
>=3B >=3B resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) Th= at is the
>=3B >=3B question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draf= t on this concept
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/3785= 0/XMLFoundation-2I have
>=3B >=3B received much valuable feedback in= the public forum at the bottom of
>=3B >=3B that article over the p= ast decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML
>=3B >=3B doc descr= ibing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and
>=3B >=3B= refined all encompassing open source implementation.
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finali= zation
>=3B >=3B of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms o= f implementation -
>=3B >=3B fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor= in available XML Parsers.
>=3B >=3B "XML Serialization" is perhaps = slightly more complex in
>=3B >=3B implementation. We need to use t= he new word "XML Object Parsing" or
>=3B >=3B perhaps "XML Serializa= tion++" to describe the even more complex
>=3B >=3B implementation w= hich addresses the needs raised in the above two
>=3B >=3B public th= reads over the past decade.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Since the ver= y purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from
>=3B >=3B re-in= venting the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for
>=3B &g= t=3B it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but
&= gt=3B >=3B collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have a= n RFC
>=3B >=3B for this? That is the question.
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B World=2C what do you think?
>=3B
>=3B
= = --_e3503699-ff44-4e01-bcfd-3dbd4c15db51_-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 09:52:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EC81A01C7 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0euYDI2vRB0 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc3-s8.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s8.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.147]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30691A01AF for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W12 ([65.55.90.135]) by snt0-omc3-s8.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:52:16 -0700 X-TMN: [tusQ1zS6jBOxgmxKxziPoIeh6Wt8JDG4] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_41802830-af46-43d5-b964-42e5ec7cebb2_" From: Brian Aberle To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:52:15 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca>, , <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net>, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2014 16:52:16.0120 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE322F80:01CF4913] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/9nw9NVAElYY8cIo-cgWsZK1d_jk Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:52:25 -0000 --_41802830-af46-43d5-b964-42e5ec7cebb2_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thread is archived here: http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201403/ see : "RFC for XML Object Par= sing" Since I know that the OASIS server fails to deliver messages that I post=2C= somebody else publish a summary of the "RFC for XML Object Parsing" thread= from the above archive which should be mirrored at http://lists.xml.org/ar= chives/xml-dev/ but who knows since SMTP stopped working=2C mirroring may h= ave failed too. Thank God there is more than 1 mirror. =20 Is it a felony or a misdemeanor net etiquette violation to censor via the S= MTP gateway?=20 =20 Brian =20 From: xml4ietf@live.com To: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-r= ncan.gc.ca=3B hsantos@isdg.net Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Help! Date: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 08:25:57 -0600 =0A= =0A= =0A= HELP! STMP is failing. Yesterday I put out in invitation for ya'll to jum= p on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I guess I got kicked off the forum b= ecause when I email the group it does not get delivered. Today the servers= at OASIS that host the open and unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list failed = to work. The message in its entirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is = provided here so that honest internet admins can debug this failure. It wa= s just one message in a thread that was getting noisy. At best=2C the servers failed to operate as designed=2C at worst this is ce= nsorship and the proof is published here. =20 --------------------> I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] <-------------------= ------- I looked at their website=2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see tha= t they have someone who knows=20 whats going on with XML in a variety of applications that works there. I c= ame to [xml-dev] in hopes of=20 that exact thing=2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear their commen= ts. Is there a politically=20 proper way to invite them in here for a comment? Perhaps that they don't h= ang out in [xml-dev] being=20 busy with their own forums and do not even know that we are talking about t= hem behind their back here. =20 =20 I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT. =20 Yesterday=2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please= take a look at the past few=20 days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. Can we assemble the chiefs for a po= w wow? =20 Where are the chiefs? Can we name them and call them out or is that not ko= sher? =20 Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical= Information System) project. =20 Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO of the project. He might reme= mber me. I was the guy who=20 Paul interrupted while I was presenting this to the Board and all of projec= t management. He threw my=20 whole scripted skit off=2C but I put on a live show instead. =20 Brian --------------------> I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] <-------------------= ------- =20 _________________________________________________________ Note: the actions of one anonymous moderator may not reflect that of the gr= oup. _________________________________________________________ =20 =20 X-TMN: [gZdIa+8JiF7i3f0xOjFLIdmgP7jSFnCk] X-Originating-Email: [xmlboss@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative=3B boundary=3D"_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_" From: Brian Aberle To: Stephen Cameron CC: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing Date: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 07:17:22 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <20140324153008031539.2f6f113f@talsever.com> <113B01AA8D44482EA7AD098005ADD4CF@LenBullardPro> <6b84j9pbacms21n6l55vac4hrr7p1jrac9@4ax.com> =2C MIME-Version: 1.0 --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_ Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked at their website=3D2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see t= ha=3D t they have someone who knows whats going on with XML in a variety of appli= =3D cations that works there. I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing= =3D =3D2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear their comments. Is there = a =3D politically proper way to invite them in here for a comment? Perhaps that = =3D they don't hang out in [xml-dev] being busy with their own forums and do no= =3D t even know that we are talking about them behind their back here. =3D20 =3D20 I Believe what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT. =3D20 Yesterday=3D2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to plea= se=3D take a look at the past few days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. Can we= =3D assemble the chiefs for a pow wow? =3D20 Where are the chiefs? Can we name them and call them out or is that not ko= =3D sher? =3D20 Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical= =3D Information System) project. Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO= =3D of the project. He might remember me. I was the guy who Paul interrupted= =3D while I was presenting this to the Board and all of project management. H= =3D e threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put on a live show instead. =3D20 Brian =3D20 Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100 From: steve.cameron.62@gmail.com To: arjun.ray@verizon.net CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing Sounds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think? http://www.deltaxml.com/ =3D --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_ Content-Type: text/html=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I looked at their website=3D= 2C (fo=3D r 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see that they have someone who knows wh= =3D ats going on with XML in a variety of applications =3D3Bthat works ther= e.=3D  =3D3B I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing=3D2C so I agree= - I=3D would be interested to hear their comments. =3D3B =3D3BIs there a&= nbsp=3D =3D3Bpolitically proper =3D3Bway to invite them in here for a comment?&= nbsp=3D =3D3B Perhaps that they don't hang out =3D3Bin [xml-dev] =3D3Bbeing= busy =3D with their own forums and do not even know that we are talking about them b= =3D ehind their back here. =3D3B
 =3D3B
I Believe what you are b= ring=3D ing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.
 =3D3B
Yesterday=3D2= C I =3D asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please take a look at= =3D the past few days at [xml-dev] for the same reason. =3D3B Can we assem= bl=3D e the chiefs for a pow wow?
 =3D3B
Where are the chiefs? =3D3= B Ca=3D n we name them and call them out or is that not kosher?
 =3D3B
Ye= st=3D erday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical Inf= =3D ormation System) project. =3D3B Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to b= e =3D CTO of the project. =3D3B He might remember me. =3D3B I was the guy= who=3D Paul interrupted while I was presenting this to the Board and all of proje= =3D ct management. =3D3B He threw my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put= on =3D a live show instead.
 =3D3B
Brian
 =3D3B
Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100
From: steve.cameron= .6=3D 2@gmail.com
To: arjun.ray@verizon.net
CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Su= =3D bject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing

S= ou=3D nds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think?

http://www.deltaxml.com= /

 =3D3B
= =3D
=3D --_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_-- =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 > Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 08:54:25 -0400 > From: hsantos@isdg.net > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca > CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing >=20 > Brian=2C >=20 > I've a little (maybe a lot) unsure of what you are asking for. Are=20 > you asking for permission to write an IETF-based I-D (individual=20 > draft) documenting your XML solution? Which appears to be an "add-on"=20 > enhancement or optimizer? or it just a better parser? >=20 > If the later=2C thats software -- it sounds like you are trying to=20 > "sell=2C push=2C and/or market" a specific parser library called=20 > XMLFoundation. >=20 > I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of=20 > "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC format.=20 > But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-ended and=20 > generically beneficial to all. >=20 > XML Parser Libraries can vary tremendously and for us=2C the specific=20 > XML parser used depends on the application=2C tool or need. For example= =2C=20 > if the development environment does not already have a built-in XML=20 > parser=2C then we might consider using PUGXML.H which is a very popular= =2C=20 > C/C++ portable=2C lightweight=2C small footprint XML parser. In general= =20 > XML libraries are "fat" and huge=2C and pug comes in handy. PUGXML is=20 > documented at Code Project and if you do a search=2C you can see it has=20 > evolved with "add-on" solutions as well: >=20 > http://www.codeproject.com/search.aspx?q=3DPugXML&doctypeid=3D1%3b2%3b3%3= b13%3b14%3b9%3b10 >=20 > So the rethorical queston is should the IETF begin documenting=20 > "pseudo-standard" coding methods such as XML and specifically=20 > libraries like PugXML=2C XMLFoundation? >=20 > Finally=2C not getting into detail=2C it sounds like you want a specific= =20 > "token" or attribute added to an XML node in order to improve or=20 > optimize the "finding" of nodes? >=20 > Again=2C thats sounds more like a specific software library issue. If=20 > the solution requires your "library" that to me=2C isn't generally IETF= =20 > material because its not something everyone can use. If you are=20 > suggesting that the method used in your functions be published as an=20 > open standard for other parsers to implement=2C then perhaps that may be= =20 > of interest to XML parser developers. >=20 >=20 > -- > HLS >=20 >=20 > On 3/24/2014 9:35 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > Peter=2C > > > > As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for the > > warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com on that > > thread. You IETF folks are not chatty at all compared to them. > > Yesterday was all about 'RFC for XML Object Parsing'. I got some good > > feedback and got closer toward an official answer to what this concept > > is (Protocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with > > polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation here: > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation and no summary > > or even clear definition of this project is that represents 14 years > > of work. I will put together such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive > > Summary' / 'Internet Draft' kind of paper once I have some community > > consensus on the various views of the basic concept which must define > > the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary > > here (followed by a recap of this thread here): > > > > Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this: > > __________________ > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I need an XML expert to correct me if I have any terminology wrong > > here. I wrote my first two XML parsers before W3C finalized XML 1.0 > > and I wrote my own XSLT - but I don't claim to know it all about XML > > even though folks with lesser study than me claim to know all about > > XML. Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this: > > > > Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a set > > of communication rules. When two parties agree on the specific use > > of a generic markup language like XML=2C they have agreed on a > > protocol. Is everyone with me so far? With this 'definition' of a > > protocol=2C your XML parser should be 'unaware' of any specific protoco= l > > as it deals with the general aspects of XML. > > > > I propose adding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community > > feedback about it. It would work like this: > > > > The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it > > appears as the first attribute (because that is the only token we have > > parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to > > obtain the memory location (or application layer object instances) > > that the XML will parse directly into with no temporary memory copy > > into a tree or DOM structure. This is not the syntax that my > > implementation uses but seems to convey the concept very well ( > @oid=3D"123"/>) > > > > It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design" > > naturally because the iterations to the temporary structure are > > eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses > > neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to SAX that > > avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on the token > > type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls to > > getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times > > faster than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the > > most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml > > integration. > > > > The first priority is to understand this concept clearly. Once > > clearly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a > > protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML > > along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1 > > > > An interesting point of analogy with "oid"=3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that ther= e is > > a second keyword used with "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword > > used=2C it is "UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's > > "If-Modified-Since". This HTTP analogy may help some with the > > conceptual summary of what we are attempting to summarize. > > > > Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". If we call it B) an implementation. Now we have two XML's > > a fast one and a slow one. A new one and an old one. The new XML is > > 100% backwards compatible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The > > important thing is to understand the concept. > > > > > > 1 > > ..... > > > > > > Normally we would call "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this > > case. It's a positional keyword in the XML. For example if an > > attribute named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not > > in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key. > > > > The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBMS index can be keyed ove= r > > multiple columns - likewise the "oid" can be a concatenation of > > several columns that make it a unique Object ID. An application using > > an ConfigFile.xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not > > designed to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless > > they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use. > > > > Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "foos". Suppose that list is ver= y > > very long. 1 Terabyte. Suppose that you get updated XML source of that > > list every 15 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some > > foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire > > update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new "foo's". > > The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory storage if it can > > make a connection between the cached instance and an "oid". > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > > > Brian Aberle > > __________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000 > > > > Hi Brian=2C > > > > Although they can be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C > > xml-dev also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C > > > > who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps more informally > > than here. > > > > Cheers=2C > > > > Peter Rushforth > > > > *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > > Of *Brian Aberle > > *Sent:* March 20=2C 2014 02:06 > > *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B > > apps-discuss@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had > > conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself because > > it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The tokenizer recognizes > > the special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it appears as the first > > attribute (because that is the only token we have parsed out yet in > > that element) Now the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory > > location (or application layer object instances) that the XML will > > parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like > > structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "memory > > copy design" naturally because the iterations to the temporary > > structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the > > tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative > > to SAX that avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depending on > > the token type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls > > to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack. > > Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile down to > > needless push's ands pop's > > > > Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it > > could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that the XML > > tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to implement "the > > protocol". I have gone to much effort to try to communicate this > > clearly=2C and developed a simple little example that breaks it all dow= n > > into numbers that you can see and understand. The examples build on > > Linux and Windows=2C > > > > Polished Source: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > SO Folks=2C > > > > I want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about > > this. Am I in the right place? > > > > Brian Aberle > > _______________________________________________________________________= ______ > > > > > >>On Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C> wrote: > >> > >>Aren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the purview of the W3C= and not us? > > > > > > > >> On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos> wrote: > > > >> > >> I think we might be seeing what I have found is a new need just to > >> document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of > >> "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all sizes of > >> interest. > >> > >> I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begin to > >> include application level recommended design=2C implementation and > >> deployment methods proposals. Not everything has to be a "standard" > >> and these days=2C we have so many argumentations and levels of > >> communications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a > >> "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The > >> increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise higher overhead "data" > >> methods to be a non-issue and a natural part of an I/O protocol. > > > > Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle > > wrote: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21:36 -0800 > > From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com > > Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org > > > > > > EAGAIN > > > > errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF > > > > > > On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote: > > > > Hi world=2C > > It's me again. I'll just be honest here. Ive never took the time in > > my whole career to be on an IETF list - but don't count me out for > > that. Isn't this the place where the old school masters kick it? All > > .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all > > this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock's is > > not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have moderators because > > we know that cock fighting is real. I don't know if ya'll are shy=2C > > just not real chatty=2C or are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the > > new guy=2C I don't know. I put together a very complete example and > > implementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my > > first posting: > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&authkey=3D= !AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&ithint=3Dfile%2c.zip > > > > > > World - Would it be helpful if I put all this together into an > > Internet Draft to obtain feedback? That is the new question. > > This overview in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF > > Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is > > stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation > > > > The OLD question was "Should we have an RFC for this?" > > The NEW question is "Should this be put into an Internet Draft?" Is > > that necessary? to get the attention of cocks that squawk in this > > spot? I asked the apps-discuss admins who said that it could be > > equally as effective to get good discussion going as it would an > > Internet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bi= t. > > > > World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C anything? Look at the num= bers in > > the example program ExIndexObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock > > fight id put all my money on 777. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: xml4ietf@live.com > > To: apps-discuss@ietf.org > > Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing > > Date: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700 > > > > Hello World=2C > > > > I am seeking community feedback regarding an official alternative to > > SAX and DOM. I have put together several examples that show > > performance numbers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or > > DOM. There are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for > > "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in > > discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for this? > > Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep inventing the wheel. > > The concept is simple. It is "XML Serialization". > > > > XMLObject Parsing? We don't need to invent new words=2C but we must > > also note that "Serialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor > > Object Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things > > that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using > > CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS project). > > This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Stroustrup in this > > thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=3D226&thread=3D2047= 21 > > > > Most recent reply > > : > > Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle > > > > > > I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where we > > resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) That is the > > question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draft on this concept > > http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation-2I have > > received much valuable feedback in the public forum at the bottom of > > that article over the past decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML > > doc describing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and > > refined all encompassing open source implementation. > > > > I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finalization > > of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms of implementation - > > fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor in available XML Parsers. > > "XML Serialization" is perhaps slightly more complex in > > implementation. We need to use the new word "XML Object Parsing" or > > perhaps "XML Serialization++" to describe the even more complex > > implementation which addresses the needs raised in the above two > > public threads over the past decade. > > > > Since the very purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from > > re-inventing the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for > > it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but > > collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have an RFC > > for this? That is the question. > > > > World=2C what do you think? >=20 >=20 = --_41802830-af46-43d5-b964-42e5ec7cebb2_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The thread is archived here:
= http://www.altova.co= m/list/xml-dev/201403/ =3B =3B see : =3B "RFC for XML Objec= t Parsing"

Since I =3Bknow that the OASIS server =3Bfails to= deliver =3Bmessages that I post=2C somebody else publish a summary of = the "RFC for XML Object Parsing" thread from the above archive which should= be mirrored at http://l= ists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ =3Bbut who knows since SMTP stopped = working=2C mirroring may have failed too. =3B Thank God there is more t= han 1 mirror.
 =3B
Is it a felony or a misdemeanor net etiquette = violation to =3Bcensor via the SMTP gateway? =3B
 =3B
Bri= an
 =3B
From: xml4ietf@live.com
T= o: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rn= can.gc.ca=3B hsantos@isdg.net
Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] Help!
Date:= Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 08:25:57 -0600

=0A= =0A= =0A=
HELP! =3B STMP is failing. =3B Yesterday I put out= in invitation for ya'll to jump on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I gue= ss I got kicked off the forum because when I email the group it does not ge= t delivered. =3B Today the servers at OASIS that host the open and unmo= derated [xml-dev] mailing list failed to work. =3B The message in its e= ntirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is provided here so that honest i= nternet admins can debug this failure. =3B It was just one message in a= thread that was getting noisy.

At best=2C the servers failed to ope= rate as designed=2C at worst this is censorship and the proof is published = here.
 =3B
-------------------->=3B =3B =3B I WAS KICKE= D OFF [xml-dev] =3B =3B =3B =3B <=3B---------------------= -----
I looked at their website=2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I coul= d see that they have someone who knows
whats going on with XML in a var= iety of applications that works there. =3B I came to [xml-dev] in hopes= of
that exact thing=2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear thei= r comments. =3B Is there a politically
proper way to invite them in= here for a comment? =3B Perhaps that they don't hang out in [xml-dev] = being
busy with their own forums and do not even know that we are talki= ng about them behind their back here. =3B
 =3B
I Believe wha= t you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.
 =3B
= Yesterday=2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to please= take a look at the past few
days at [xml-dev] for the same reason.&nbs= p=3B Can we assemble the chiefs for a pow wow?
 =3B
Where are the= chiefs? =3B Can we name them and call them out or is that not kosher?<= br> =3B
Yesterday I saw someone question the reality of the NCIS (Na= tional Clinical Information System) project. =3B
Paul Fingerman lef= t from NASA just to be CTO of the project. =3B He might remember me.&nb= sp=3B I was the guy who
Paul interrupted while I was presenting this to= the Board and all of project management. =3B He threw my
whole scr= ipted skit off=2C but I put on a live show instead.
 =3B
Brian-------------------->=3B =3B =3B I WAS KICKED OFF [xml-dev] = =3B =3B =3B =3B <=3B--------------------------
 =3B_________________________________________________________
Note: the act= ions of one anonymous moderator may not reflect that of the group.
_____= ____________________________________________________
 =3B
 = =3B
X-TMN: [gZdIa+8JiF7i3f0xOjFLIdmgP7jSFnCk]
X-Originating-Email: [x= mlboss@live.com]
Message-ID: <=3BSNT146-W1753E6342040659D670D59D7640@phx.gbl&g= t=3B
Content-Type: multipart/alternative=3B
 =3Bboundary=3D"_07be= c19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_"
From: Brian Aberle <=3Bxmlboss@live.com>=3B
To: Stephen Cameron &= lt=3Bsteve.cameron.62@gmail.c= om>=3B
CC: "xml-dev@lists= .xml.org" <=3Bxml-dev@lists.= xml.org>=3B
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing
D= ate: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 07:17:22 -0600
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To= :
 =3B<=3BCAG=3Dut6KUsEgQ18Ne8oBjSQ+Q7EFXMmNz3bJVeY= 4Bv4UKD=3DpcwQ@mail.gmail.com>=3B
References: <=3B20140324153008031539.2f6f11= 3f@talsever.com>=3B
 =3B<=3B113B01AA8D44482EA7AD098005ADD4CF@LenBulla= rdPro>=3B
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 =3B<=3B<= a href=3D"mailto:dsf4j9h44mo7kjl8nh120pfqulnjn2f5vq@4ax.com>=2Cdsf4j9h44mo7kj= l8nh120pfqulnjn2f5vq@4ax.com>=3B=2C<=3BCAG=3Dut6KUsEgQ18Ne8oBjSQ+Q7EFXM= mNz3bJVeY4Bv4UKD=3DpcwQ@mail.gmail.com>=3B
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I looke= d at their website=3D2C (for 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see tha=3Dt they have someone who knows whats going on with XML in a variety of app= li=3D
cations that works there. =3B I came to [xml-dev] in hopes of = that exact thing=3D
=3D2C so I agree - I would be interested to hear the= ir comments. =3B Is there a =3D
politically proper way to invite the= m in here for a comment? =3B Perhaps that =3D
they don't hang out in= [xml-dev] being busy with their own forums and do no=3D
t even know tha= t we are talking about them behind their back here. =3D20
=3D20
I Bel= ieve what you are bringing up is that we need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.
=3D2= 0
Yesterday=3D2C I asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to= please=3D
 =3Btake a look at the past few days at [xml-dev] for the= same reason. =3B Can we=3D
 =3Bassemble the chiefs for a pow wo= w?
=3D20
Where are the chiefs? =3B Can we name them and call them= out or is that not ko=3D
sher?
=3D20
Yesterday I saw someone ques= tion the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical=3D
 =3BInformation S= ystem) project. =3B Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be CTO=3D
=  =3Bof the project. =3B He might remember me. =3B I was the guy= who Paul interrupted=3D
 =3Bwhile I was presenting this to the Boar= d and all of project management. =3B H=3D
e threw my whole scripted = skit off=3D2C but I put on a live show instead.
=3D20
Brian
=3D20<= br>Date: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100
From: steve.cameron.62@gmail.com
To: arjun.ray@verizon.net
CC: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-= dev] RFC for XML Object Parsing
Sounds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the= folks at DeltaXML think?
http://www.deltaxml.com/
 =3B  =3B =3B  =3B=  =3B =3B  =3B =3B =3B =3D
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<= =3Bbody class=3D3D'hmmessage'>=3B<=3Bdiv dir=3D3D'ltr'>=3BI looked at= their website=3D2C (fo=3D
r 5-10 minutes) and clearly I could see that = they have someone who knows wh=3D
ats going on with XML in a variety of = applications&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bthat works there.=3D
&=3Bnbsp=3D3B I came= to [xml-dev] in hopes of that exact thing=3D2C so I agree - I=3D
 = =3Bwould be interested to hear their comments.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B&=3Bnbsp= =3D3BIs there a&=3Bnbsp=3D
=3D3Bpolitically proper&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bway= to invite them in here for a comment?&=3Bnbsp=3D
=3D3B Perhaps that = they don't hang out&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bin [xml-dev]&=3Bnbsp=3D3Bbeing busy = =3D
with their own forums and do not even know that we are talking about= them b=3D
ehind their back here.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B <=3BBR>=3B&=3Bn= bsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BI Believe what you are bring=3D
ing up is that we = need MORE AUTHORUTY INPUT.<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BYeste= rday=3D2C I =3D
asked folks who hang out at [apps-discuss] at IETF to pl= ease take a look at=3D
 =3Bthe past few days at [xml-dev] for the sa= me reason.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B Can we assembl=3D
e the chiefs for a pow wow?= <=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BWhere are the chiefs?&=3Bnbs= p=3D3B Ca=3D
n we name them and call them out or is that not kosher?<= =3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BYest=3D
erday I saw someone que= stion the reality of the NCIS (National Clinical Inf=3D
ormation System)= project.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B Paul Fingerman left from NASA just to be =3D
C= TO of the project.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B He might remember me.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B I = was the guy who=3D
 =3BPaul interrupted while I was presenting this = to the Board and all of proje=3D
ct management.&=3Bnbsp=3D3B He threw= my whole scripted skit off=3D2C but I put on =3D
a live show instead.&l= t=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B<=3BBR>=3BBrian<=3BBR>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D= 3B<=3BBR>=3B<=3Bdiv>=3B<=3Bhr id=3D3D"sto=3D
pSpelling">=3BD= ate: Wed=3D2C 26 Mar 2014 16:29:09 +1100<=3Bbr>=3BFrom: steve.cameron.6= =3D
To">2@gmail.com<=3Bbr>=3BTo= : CC">arjun.ray@verizon.net<= =3Bbr>=3BCC: Su">xml-dev@l= ists.xml.org<=3Bbr>=3BSu=3D
bject: Re: [xml-dev] RFC for XML Obj= ect Parsing<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Bdiv dir=3D3D"ltr">=3BSou=3D<= br>nds good to me=3D2C I wonder what the folks at DeltaXML think?<=3Bbr&g= t=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3Ba href=3D
=3D3D"http://www.deltaxml.com/" target=3D3D"_blank">= =3Bhttp://www.deltaxml.com/<=3B/a=3D
>=3B<=3Bbr>=3B<=3B/div>= =3B<=3Bdiv class=3D3D"ecxgmail_extra">=3B<=3Bbr>=3B&=3Bnbsp=3D3B= <=3B/div>=3B<=3B/div>=3B  =3B =3B  =3B =3B =3B =  =3B =3B=3D
 =3B <=3B/div>=3B<=3B/body>=3B
<=3B= /html>=3B=3D
--_07bec19d-3456-48b3-adab-ba1ce525f2fa_--
 =3B =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B

 =3B
>=3B Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 08:54:25 -0400
>=3B From: hsant= os@isdg.net
>=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.= gc.ca
>=3B CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B superuser@gmail.com
>=3B = Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B
>=3B = Brian=2C
>=3B
>=3B I've a little (maybe a lot) unsure of what yo= u are asking for. Are
>=3B you asking for permission to write an IET= F-based I-D (individual
>=3B draft) documenting your XML solution? W= hich appears to be an "add-on"
>=3B enhancement or optimizer? or it j= ust a better parser?
>=3B
>=3B If the later=2C thats software --= it sounds like you are trying to
>=3B "sell=2C push=2C and/or market= " a specific parser library called
>=3B XMLFoundation.
>=3B
= >=3B I have no objection to seeing the IETF take on more documentation of=
>=3B "libraries" or reference guides in their particular IETF RFC fo= rmat.
>=3B But its rare to see this. It generally has to be open-en= ded and
>=3B generically beneficial to all.
>=3B
>=3B XML = Parser Libraries can vary tremendously and for us=2C the specific
>= =3B XML parser used depends on the application=2C tool or need. For example= =2C
>=3B if the development environment does not already have a built= -in XML
>=3B parser=2C then we might consider using PUGXML.H which is= a very popular=2C
>=3B C/C++ portable=2C lightweight=2C small footpr= int XML parser. In general
>=3B XML libraries are "fat" and huge=2C = and pug comes in handy. PUGXML is
>=3B documented at Code Project an= d if you do a search=2C you can see it has
>=3B evolved with "add-on"= solutions as well:
>=3B
>=3B http://www.codeproject.com/search.= aspx?q=3DPugXML&=3Bdoctypeid=3D1%3b2%3b3%3b13%3b14%3b9%3b10
>=3B >=3B So the rethorical queston is should the IETF begin documenting >=3B "pseudo-standard" coding methods such as XML and specifically
= >=3B libraries like PugXML=2C XMLFoundation?
>=3B
>=3B Finally= =2C not getting into detail=2C it sounds like you want a specific
>= =3B "token" or attribute added to an XML node in order to improve or
&g= t=3B optimize the "finding" of nodes?
>=3B
>=3B Again=2C thats s= ounds more like a specific software library issue. If
>=3B the soluti= on requires your "library" that to me=2C isn't generally IETF
>=3B m= aterial because its not something everyone can use. If you are
>=3B s= uggesting that the method used in your functions be published as an
>= =3B open standard for other parsers to implement=2C then perhaps that may b= e
>=3B of interest to XML parser developers.
>=3B
>=3B >=3B --
>=3B HLS
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B On 3/24/2014 9:35 = AM=2C Brian Aberle wrote:
>=3B >=3B Peter=2C
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B As you suggested=2C I posted a summary at xml-dev. Thanks for t= he
>=3B >=3B warning. IAM XMLBoss@live.com <=3Bmailto:XMLBoss@liv= e.com>=3B on that
>=3B >=3B thread. You IETF folks are not chatty= at all compared to them.
>=3B >=3B Yesterday was all about 'RFC for= XML Object Parsing'. I got some good
>=3B >=3B feedback and got cl= oser toward an official answer to what this concept
>=3B >=3B is (Pr= otocol=2C Implementation=2C or XML 2.0). I know I showed up with
>=3B= >=3B polished code=2C somewhat described with 'bloggish' documentation h= ere:
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundati= on and no summary
>=3B >=3B or even clear definition of this project= is that represents 14 years
>=3B >=3B of work. I will put together= such a 'White Paper' / 'Executive
>=3B >=3B Summary' / 'Internet Dr= aft' kind of paper once I have some community
>=3B >=3B consensus on= the various views of the basic concept which must define
>=3B >=3B = the definition. I will re-post the beginning of this draft summary
>= =3B >=3B here (followed by a recap of this thread here):
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B Perhaps ya'll can help me refine this:
>=3B >=3B _= _________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I need an XML expert to correct me if I have an= y terminology wrong
>=3B >=3B here. I wrote my first two XML parser= s before W3C finalized XML 1.0
>=3B >=3B and I wrote my own XSLT - b= ut I don't claim to know it all about XML
>=3B >=3B even though folk= s with lesser study than me claim to know all about
>=3B >=3B XML. = Maybe someone here can intelligently comment on this:
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B Lets start with getting terminology right. "A Protocol" is a = set
>=3B >=3B of communication rules. When two parties agree on the = specific use
>=3B >=3B of a generic markup language like XML=2C they= have agreed on a
>=3B >=3B protocol. Is everyone with me so far? = With this 'definition' of a
>=3B >=3B protocol=2C your XML parser sh= ould be 'unaware' of any specific protocol
>=3B >=3B as it deals wit= h the general aspects of XML.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I propose a= dding a new keyword to XML=2C and I would like community
>=3B >=3B f= eedback about it. It would work like this:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B The tokenizer recognizes a special keyword attribute "oid" ONLY if it>=3B >=3B appears as the first attribute (because that is the only to= ken we have
>=3B >=3B parsed out yet in that element) Now the "Objec= t ID" can be used to
>=3B >=3B obtain the memory location (or applic= ation layer object instances)
>=3B >=3B that the XML will parse dire= ctly into with no temporary memory copy
>=3B >=3B into a tree or DOM= structure. This is not the syntax that my
>=3B >=3B implementation= uses but seems to convey the concept very well (<=3Bfoo
>=3B >= =3B @oid=3D"123"/>=3B)
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B It's OVER twice = as fast as the more traditional "memory copy design"
>=3B >=3B natur= ally because the iterations to the temporary structure are
>=3B >=3B= eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 times as fast because the tokenizer uses>=3B >=3B neither SAX nor DOM=2C but a more efficient alternative to S= AX that
>=3B >=3B avoids pushing a variable number of arguments depe= nding on the token
>=3B >=3B type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX de= sign only makes calls to
>=3B >=3B getToken(token *p) to pull the da= ta over a 1 argument call stack.
>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would push = via too many argument that compile down to
>=3B >=3B needless push's= ands pop's. This implementation is about 3 times
>=3B >=3B faster = than the very best anyone can do with SAX=2C this makes it the
>=3B &g= t=3B most ideal solution for the massive sets used in a native BigData xml<= br>>=3B >=3B integration.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The first p= riority is to understand this concept clearly. Once
>=3B >=3B clear= ly understood=2C it becomes clear that you could call this A) a
>=3B &= gt=3B protocol. B) an application implementation C) an extension to XML=
>=3B >=3B along a similar thought that added ETag into HTTP 1.1
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B An interesting point of analogy with "oid"= =3D=3D"Etag" =2C is that there is
>=3B >=3B a second keyword used wi= th "oid" . This is the ONLY other keyword
>=3B >=3B used=2C it is "= UpdateTime" and it is analogous to HTTP's
>=3B >=3B "If-Modified-Sin= ce". This HTTP analogy may help some with the
>=3B >=3B conceptual = summary of what we are attempting to summarize.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B = >=3B Since this thing has a requirement of an attribute named "oid" it>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protocol that th= e XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other way to im= plement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". If we call it B) an implementatio= n. Now we have two XML's
>=3B >=3B a fast one and a slow one. A ne= w one and an old one. The new XML is
>=3B >=3B 100% backwards compat= ible. Again - this is all a matter of view. The
>=3B >=3B importan= t thing is to understand the concept.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B <= =3BCustomer oid=3D'1'>=3B
>=3B >=3B <=3BCustomerID>=3B1= <=3B/CustomerID>=3B
>=3B >=3B .....
>=3B >=3B <= =3B/Customer>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Normally we would call= "oid" an attribute. It is NOT Data in this
>=3B >=3B case. It's a= positional keyword in the XML. For example if an
>=3B >=3B attribu= te named "oid" contains any upper case or the attribute is not
>=3B &g= t=3B in the 1st position - then it IS data - otherwise it is a key.
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The "oid" =3D=3D the DBMS Index. Just as a DBM= S index can be keyed over
>=3B >=3B multiple columns - likewise the = "oid" can be a concatenation of
>=3B >=3B several columns that make = it a unique Object ID. An application using
>=3B >=3B an ConfigFile= .xml would most likely never use an "oid". It's not
>=3B >=3B desig= ned to be used in all applications. Many XML Documents=2C unless
>=3B= >=3B they are indexed in by a DBMS would not be candidate for "oid" use.=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Finally=2C Suppose you have a list of "f= oos". Suppose that list is very
>=3B >=3B very long. 1 Terabyte. Su= ppose that you get updated XML source of that
>=3B >=3B list every 1= 5 minutes. In the huge list=2C some "foos" are new=2C some
>=3B >= =3B foos() have been updated. With an "oid" we can parse this entire
&g= t=3B >=3B update=2C and make no new memory allocations except of the new = "foo's".
>=3B >=3B The XML Parser never needs to allocate any memory= storage if it can
>=3B >=3B make a connection between the cached in= stance and an "oid".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:
= >=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&= amp=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >= =3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B= >=3B A Rough (and Rogue) Draft article about this (open source) technolo= gy
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Brian Aberle
>=3B = >=3B __________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------------------------------= --------------------------
>=3B >=3B From: Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNC= an.gc.ca
>=3B >=3B To: xml4ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org>=3B >=3B Subject: RE: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B Date: Thu=2C 20 Mar 2014 12:06:59 +0000
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B Hi Brian=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Although they can = be a little snooty at times (you've been warned)=2C
>=3B >=3B xml-de= v also has lots of smart people who know lots about xml=2C
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B who will likely also have an opinion although perhaps mor= e informally
>=3B >=3B than here.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = Cheers=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Peter Rushforth
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B *From:*apps-discuss [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.= org] *On Behalf
>=3B >=3B Of *Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B *Sent:* = March 20=2C 2014 02:06
>=3B >=3B *To:* Bill Mills=3B superuser@gmail= .com=3B hsantos@isdg.net=3B
>=3B >=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>= =3B >=3B *Subject:* Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hello World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B There was confusion about this being "A Protocol". Initially=2C I had<= br>>=3B >=3B conceptually pictured it as an extra keyword in XML itself= because
>=3B >=3B it is handled by the XML tokenizer itself. The t= okenizer recognizes
>=3B >=3B the special keyword attribute "oid" ON= LY if it appears as the first
>=3B >=3B attribute (because that is t= he only token we have parsed out yet in
>=3B >=3B that element) Now = the "Object ID" can be used to obtain the memory
>=3B >=3B location = (or application layer object instances) that the XML will
>=3B >=3B = parse directly into with no temporary memory copy into a tree like
>= =3B >=3B structure. It's OVER twice as fast as the more traditional "mem= ory
>=3B >=3B copy design" naturally because the iterations to the t= emporary
>=3B >=3B structure are eliminated=2C it goes beyond 2 time= s as fast because the
>=3B >=3B tokenizer uses neither SAX nor DOM= =2C but a more efficient alternative
>=3B >=3B to SAX that avoids pu= shing a variable number of arguments depending on
>=3B >=3B the toke= n type via the SAX calls. The non-SAX design only makes calls
>=3B &g= t=3B to getToken(token *p) to pull the data over a 1 argument call stack.>=3B >=3B Data that SAX would push via too many argument that compile= down to
>=3B >=3B needless push's ands pop's
>=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B Since this new thing has a requirement of an attribute named "o= id" it
>=3B >=3B could equally conceptually be a protocol (A protoco= l that the XML
>=3B >=3B tokenizer is aware of?) There is no other = way to implement "the
>=3B >=3B protocol". I have gone to much effo= rt to try to communicate this
>=3B >=3B clearly=2C and developed a s= imple little example that breaks it all down
>=3B >=3B into numbers = that you can see and understand. The examples build on
>=3B >=3B Li= nux and Windows=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Polished Source:
&g= t=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&am= p=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B = <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3B= authkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint=3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >= =3B Rough and Rogue Draft article about the (open source) technology
>= =3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFoundation
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B SO Folks=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I= want to know what some smart internet savvy people think about
>=3B &= gt=3B this. Am I in the right place?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Bri= an Aberle
>=3B >=3B ________________________________________________= _____________________________
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3BOn Mon=2C Mar 3=2C 2014 at 7:57 PM=2C<=3Bsuperuser@gmail.com &= lt=3Bmailto:superuser@gmail.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3BAren't the definitions of XML and its ilk within the p= urview of the W3C and not us?
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B On Tue=2C 4 Mar 2014 12:16:11=2C Hector Santos= <=3Bhsantos@isdg.net <=3Bmailto:hsantos@isdg.net>=3B>=3B wrote:
= >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B I think we migh= t be seeing what I have found is a new need just to
>=3B >=3B>=3B = document stuff in a structured simple manner with some level of
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3B "broad" industry and peer review=2C more importantly for all si= zes of
>=3B >=3B>=3B interest.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B I personally believe the IETF should leverage this need and begi= n to
>=3B >=3B>=3B include application level recommended design=2C= implementation and
>=3B >=3B>=3B deployment methods proposals. No= t everything has to be a "standard"
>=3B >=3B>=3B and these days= =2C we have so many argumentations and levels of
>=3B >=3B>=3B com= munications=2C that yes=2C today XML is highly considered as a
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B "client/server" and dynamic communications "wired" protocol. The=
>=3B >=3B>=3B increased speeds has allowed what was otherwise hig= her overhead "data"
>=3B >=3B>=3B methods to be a non-issue and a = natural part of an I/O protocol.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Tue=2C 4= Mar 2014 11:37:45 +0000=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com
>=3B = >=3B <=3Bmailto:xml4ietf@live.com>=3B>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B -----------------------------------------------------------= -----------
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Date: Mon=2C 3 Mar 2014 17:21= :36 -0800
>=3B >=3B From: wmills@yahoo-inc.com
>=3B >=3B Subj= ect: Re: [apps-discuss] RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B To: xml4= ietf@live.com=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B <=3Bmailto:apps-d= iscuss@ietf.org>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B EAGAIN
>=3B &g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B errno() returns ALL_RESOURCES_AT_IETF
>=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On Monday=2C March 3=2C 2014 11:57 AM= =2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B Hi world=2C
>=3B >=3B It's me again. I'll just be hone= st here. Ive never took the time in
>=3B >=3B my whole career to be= on an IETF list - but don't count me out for
>=3B >=3B that. Isn't= this the place where the old school masters kick it? All
>=3B >=3B= .com aside this is about .edu - and sirs=2C mind you that is where all
= >=3B >=3B this Internet stuff came from. Now I know a forum of Peacock= 's is
>=3B >=3B not impressed by another colorful cool guy. We have = moderators because
>=3B >=3B we know that cock fighting is real. I = don't know if ya'll are shy=2C
>=3B >=3B just not real chatty=2C or = are too busy=2C maybe just didn't notice the
>=3B >=3B new guy=2C I = don't know. I put together a very complete example and
>=3B >=3B im= plementation. Forgive me for not supplying this direct link in my
>= =3B >=3B first posting:
>=3B >=3B https://onedrive.live.com/redir?= resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF!923&=3Bauthkey=3D!AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid= =3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21923&=3Bauthkey=3D%21AAnvh0CKDY4nuho&=3Bithint= =3Dfile%2c.zip>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World - Would it be = helpful if I put all this together into an
>=3B >=3B Internet Draft = to obtain feedback? That is the new question.
>=3B >=3B This overvi= ew in HTML is rough and rogue and was not intended for IETF
>=3B >= =3B Gurus=2C Bosses=2C Admins=2C and Chiefs=2C but for programmers using th= is
>=3B >=3B stuff. http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/37850/XMLFou= ndation
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The OLD question was "Should we h= ave an RFC for this?"
>=3B >=3B The NEW question is "Should this be = put into an Internet Draft?" Is
>=3B >=3B that necessary? to get th= e attention of cocks that squawk in this
>=3B >=3B spot? I asked the= apps-discuss admins who said that it could be
>=3B >=3B equally as = effective to get good discussion going as it would an
>=3B >=3B Inte= rnet Draft. I believe them=2C so I turned up the color volume a bit.
&g= t=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B World=2C can I have an ACK=2C NAK=2C Ping=2C a= nything? Look at the numbers in
>=3B >=3B the example program ExInd= exObjects. If numbers were to get in a cock
>=3B >=3B fight id put = all my money on 777.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --------------------= --------------------------------------------------
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B From: xml4ietf@live.com
>=3B >=3B To: apps-discuss@ietf.o= rg
>=3B >=3B Subject: RFC for XMLObject Parsing
>=3B >=3B Dat= e: Thu=2C 27 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Hell= o World=2C
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I am seeking community feedbac= k regarding an official alternative to
>=3B >=3B SAX and DOM. I hav= e put together several examples that show
>=3B >=3B performance numb= ers which alone justify this alternative to SAX or
>=3B >=3B DOM. T= here are other reasons as well=2C primarily - the argument for
>=3B &g= t=3B "Object Oriented Design" in the application layer. This issue in
&= gt=3B >=3B discussion here before the community is: Do we want an RFC for= this?
>=3B >=3B Maybe not. Maybe so. We don't all want to keep in= venting the wheel.
>=3B >=3B The concept is simple. It is "XML Seri= alization".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B XMLObject Parsing? We don't = need to invent new words=2C but we must
>=3B >=3B also note that "Se= rialization" includes neither Keyed XML Updates nor
>=3B >=3B Object= Instance Reference counting. We also don't need fancy things
>=3B &g= t=3B that we just don't need=2C however I have prepared an example using>=3B >=3B CORBA that does need this(and we needed it on the $2B NCIS p= roject).
>=3B >=3B This concept was identified quickly by Bjarne Str= oustrup in this
>=3B >=3B thread: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.= jsp?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Mos= t recent reply
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp= ?forum=3D226&=3Bthread=3D204721&=3Bstart=3D15#366941>=3B:
>=3B= >=3B Feb 12=2C 2010 12:43 AM by Brian Aberle
>=3B >=3B <=3Bhttp= ://www.artima.com/profile.jsp?user=3D70450>=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B= >=3B I recommend that this thread be continuation from that one=2C where= we
>=3B >=3B resolve to solve an identified need (for and RFC?) Th= at is the
>=3B >=3B question. I have prepared a rough and rogue draf= t on this concept
>=3B >=3B http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/3785= 0/XMLFoundation-2I have
>=3B >=3B received much valuable feedback in= the public forum at the bottom of
>=3B >=3B that article over the p= ast decade++=3B The roughness of the draft HTML
>=3B >=3B doc descr= ibing this stuff=2C should not reflect on the polished and
>=3B >=3B= refined all encompassing open source implementation.
>=3B >=3B
&= gt=3B >=3B I had developed/co-developed 2 XML Parsers prior to the finali= zation
>=3B >=3B of XML 1.0. That is rather simple stuff in terms o= f implementation -
>=3B >=3B fact backed by the "Yet Another" factor= in available XML Parsers.
>=3B >=3B "XML Serialization" is perhaps = slightly more complex in
>=3B >=3B implementation. We need to use t= he new word "XML Object Parsing" or
>=3B >=3B perhaps "XML Serializa= tion++" to describe the even more complex
>=3B >=3B implementation w= hich addresses the needs raised in the above two
>=3B >=3B public th= reads over the past decade.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Since the ver= y purpose of IETF is designed to prevent us all from
>=3B >=3B re-in= venting the wheel when we collectively can identify a need for
>=3B &g= t=3B it=2C (each of us would create our own cool version no doubt) but
&= gt=3B >=3B collectively we would roll nowhere that way - Should we have a= n RFC
>=3B >=3B for this? That is the question.
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B World=2C what do you think?
>=3B
>=3B
=
= --_41802830-af46-43d5-b964-42e5ec7cebb2_-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 13:56:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB341A03CE for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZgqXmQPMWNW for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665941A03C9 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] ([93.217.104.68]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MFuWk-1WGD2a2sh4-00Ewi8; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:56:34 +0100 Message-ID: <53333EFA.3010903@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:56:26 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Aberle , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" References: , , , , , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca>, , <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net>, In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:3rWV6Z0Dq3A3F9hUW8hFMyXeqqxF7ldTr7IfWNIBi9/1jI+m1AS I2mpsqWAt+dGKX94Ts73PmORr+aZtEHZF4yk/kAMPQBFOYkAGVL8vZCwTz07q7vyNrTfFXU YTaOcBeHT6yF8pHZu5yqDojp0dyaPYxp9wIb52Szk9r4nKwoV+vHCqDKUVKoT8MugM30cN3 5xJRKUIZVBmyDSEGbcg5A== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/vhyoXggnrGXRSn7hcPdcylFqOCs Cc: "'xml-dev@lists.xml.org '" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:56:46 -0000 On 2014-03-26 17:52, Brian Aberle wrote: > The thread is archived here: > http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201403/ see : "RFC for XML Object > Parsing" > > Since I know that the OASIS server fails to deliver messages that I > post, somebody else publish a summary of the "RFC for XML Object > Parsing" thread from the above archive which should be mirrored at > http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ but who knows since SMTP stopped > working, mirroring may have failed too. Thank God there is more than 1 > mirror. > > Is it a felony or a misdemeanor net etiquette violation to censor via > the SMTP gateway? > > Brian > ... Or maybe just a bug? From nobody Wed Mar 26 15:48:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924461A03DC for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.811 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hL0WRQJliOGY for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc4-s30.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc4-s30.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208D11A03DB for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W52 ([65.55.90.200]) by snt0-omc4-s30.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:48:17 -0700 X-TMN: [UefnjKy3ChVerEFL7FU1o27+G4mSRy5d] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_5b6bd175-b353-41ff-9dcf-2e7f297bdfd4_" From: Brian Aberle To: "stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov" , "barbara.berger@cobbcounty.org" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:48:17 -0600 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2014 22:48:17.0555 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A9A7E30:01CF4945] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/TJ7_N9zfxp4xgGQ4daLstGmyhrU Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:48:22 -0000 --_5b6bd175-b353-41ff-9dcf-2e7f297bdfd4_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_bc9fc871-0e0e-4ff0-afd5-13fdb4124f92_" --_bc9fc871-0e0e-4ff0-afd5-13fdb4124f92_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta To: Barbara Berger - Cobb County Solicitor General CC: [apps-discuss] =20 I assume that we all know this is public information:(attached for your con= venience) https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21968 =20 I appeared for court in Cobb County Georgia where they operate very unprofe= ssionally. I was told that there was no case number for me and I was told = to leave and given no court date. I was supposed to leave without having a= ny record of my attendance. I was out on bond. I said=2C "If I leave you = will put out a warrant for my arrest for not being here"=2C at which time I= was handed a business card from Barbara Berger with the printed phone numb= er 770 528 8500 and hand written 770-528-8531 to be used as a reference sho= uld anyone question this. I was free to leave without scheduling any retur= n court date. I am not from Georgia and have no family or business there. I am in Colorado. I got news today that by bond was revoked. Is this a mi= stake? It seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent=2C the Gestapo will = come to arrest you. I need a more official perspective from one of you tha= t can explain why the court can do this. Should I sign a waiver of extradi= tion back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system?=20 =20 Ya'll have my contact info: RoaringCheckmate@live.com or 404.448.1244= so please contact me if there is some problem. Contact me if you find my= case number. Contact me to re-schedule a court date. If you need me to a= ppear somewhere I am still willing. A person never knows when they lose yo= ur case file if the court will lose it forever of find it in a few months. = It would be more convenient for me do have court in another state where I = might not be a prejudged case. Id like to avoid all the guns and arrest dr= ama if anyone is willing to help me make that happen. Ignoring the problem= makes you guilty. Please contact me at your earliest convenience. =20 I am in Colorado. Today I got news that my bond was revoked. Is this a mi= stake? Don't I need to miss a court date before you do that? It seems lik= e if you cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will co= me to arrest you. I need a more official explanation from one of you. =20 Brian Aberle = --_bc9fc871-0e0e-4ff0-afd5-13fdb4124f92_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta=
To: Barbara Berger - Cobb County Solicitor General
CC: [apps-discuss= ]
 =3B
I assume that we all know this is public information:(atta= ched for your convenience)
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC2= 75E76D295CF%21968
 =3B
I appeared for court in Cobb County Ge= orgia where =3Bthey operate very unprofessionally. =3B I was told t= hat there was no case number for me and I was =3Btold to leave and give= n no court date. =3B I was supposed to leave without having any record = of my attendance. =3B I was out on bond. =3B I said=2C "If I leave = you will put out a warrant for my arrest for not being here"=2C at which ti= me I was handed =3Ba business card from Barbara Berger with the printed= phone number 770 528 8500 and hand written =3B770-528-8531 to be used = as a reference should anyone question this. =3B I was free to leave wit= hout =3Bscheduling any return court date. =3B I am not from Georgia= and have no family or business there.

I am in Colorado. =3B I g= ot news today that by bond was revoked. =3B =3BIs this a mistake?&n= bsp=3B It seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent=2C the Gestapo will c= ome to arrest you. =3B I need a more official perspective from one of y= ou that can explain why the court can do this. =3B Should I sign a waiv= er of extradition back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system? =3B=
 =3B
Ya'll have my contact info: =3B RoaringCheckmate@live.com =3B =3B or = =3B =3B =3B 404.448.1244 =3B so please contact me if there is s= ome problem. =3B Contact me =3Bif you find my case number. =3B = Contact me =3Bto re-schedule a court date. =3B If you need me to ap= pear somewhere I am still willing. =3B A person never knows when they l= ose your case file if the court will lose it forever of find it in a few mo= nths. =3B It would be more convenient for me do have court in another s= tate where I might not be a prejudged case. =3B Id like to avoid all th= e guns and arrest drama if anyone is willing to help me make that happen.&n= bsp=3B Ignoring the problem makes you guilty. =3B Please contact me at = your earliest convenience.
 =3B
I am in Colorado. =3B Today&n= bsp=3BI got news that my bond was revoked. =3B Is this a mistake? = =3B Don't I need to miss a court date before you do that? =3B It seems = like if you cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will= come to arrest you. =3B I need a more official =3Bexplanation from= one of you.
 =3B
Brian Aberle
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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9FD1A070A for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVDvlehkO9Xy for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF451A0705 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x48so1851259wes.10 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gR+rcvUpKGL8yaGVMA+fMsrbxULaQaIo2ollcNnTwRY=; b=di6Kd2bJ7bs7No5z2g11H1tC3Fw2F1DfbNX4wt/Vjy/BZ5jRzjL4LHPVlGOmsPWlbu mVvqBF9LwIOjXZU3LshQAidqUZc7yMLDAuGDcz6nXWYD+7zboLNTSnJ8lBwY7SHXzkmP SJAEnO8kzN27jk6UtkrG9AQhiSszC5qAjdFfNh4Obsbyk0Y7GI6QW9EH40y/QylHtZkw awUbTBUp6ylsVSYp5iPePcSPDhzxt+8S7ojnXulPKy3wHyUZE1UgnJ09/yn8gfncU/l0 22zPjQsWCnC7Id6ZxJgHBmKOHNx8F7/JUAbzb16xxzjdaMo7pCyWQRK3NEbZuFi28G1Q Vgng== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.12.233 with SMTP id b9mr39810394wic.8.1395929259214; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca> <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:07:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Brian Aberle Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c24114a08ca204f5971b15 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/EWSQzTSa_mQ9g8rHkkXeQcbFnJY Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:07:43 -0000 --001a11c24114a08ca204f5971b15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Brian Aberle wrote: > HELP! STMP is failing. Yesterday I put out in invitation for ya'll to > jump on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I guess I got kicked off the > forum because when I email the group it does not get delivered. Today the > servers at OASIS that host the open and unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list > failed to work. The message in its entirety, complete with the SMTP > headers is provided here so that honest internet admins can debug this > failure. It was just one message in a thread that was getting noisy. > [...] > Brian, It's been a month since you brought this topic to apps-discuss for its consideration, a topic about which you are clearly passionate. I have seen feedback suggesting that this is really the purview of the W3C which has domain over XML, and not the IETF; I have seen none that suggests there's interest in taking up this work on our side of the fence, or that it would be appropriate for us to do so. It may be the case that you should take the time to write and submit an Internet Draft with your proposal in it, which might demonstrate to people here what you have in mind. That might make it more clear that this is work for the IETF. Until that happens, I believe any interested parties should join the relevant W3C lists and take up the discussion over there. Browsing the relevant threads on the xml-dev archive, I don't see any indication consistent with you being kicked off the list. I think you may have run into a glitch rather than censorship. -MSK --001a11c24114a08ca204f5971b15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Brian Aberle <xml4ietf@l= ive.com> wrote:
HELP!=A0 STMP is failing.=A0 Yesterday I put out in i= nvitation for ya'll to jump on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I gues= s I got kicked off the forum because when I email the group it does not get= delivered.=A0 Today the servers at OASIS that host the open and unmoderate= d [xml-dev] mailing list failed to work.=A0 The message in its entirety, co= mplete with the SMTP headers is provided here so that honest internet admin= s can debug this failure.=A0 It was just one message in a thread that was g= etting noisy.
[...]

Brian,

<= div>It's been a month since you brought this topic to apps-discuss for = its consideration, a topic about which you are clearly passionate.=A0 I hav= e seen feedback suggesting that this is really the purview of the W3C which= has domain over XML, and not the IETF; I have seen none that suggests ther= e's interest in taking up this work on our side of the fence, or that i= t would be appropriate for us to do so.

It may be the case that you should take the time to write an= d submit an Internet Draft with your proposal in it, which might demonstrat= e to people here what you have in mind.=A0 That might make it more clear th= at this is work for the IETF.

Until that happens, I believe any interested part= ies should join the relevant W3C lists and take up the discussion over ther= e.

Browsing the relevant threads on the xml-dev archive, = I don't see any indication consistent with you being kicked off the lis= t.=A0 I think you may have run into a glitch rather than censorship.

-MSK
--001a11c24114a08ca204f5971b15-- From nobody Thu Mar 27 07:36:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11BF1A0758 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7hFh20T9l_i for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc3-s39.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s39.snt0.hotmail.com [65.54.51.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4336B1A074F for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W81 ([65.55.90.135]) by snt0-omc3-s39.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:36:33 -0700 X-TMN: [Xq7WAlFarlliC0JWgsSXcuXdTfatkB+e] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2d59db15-296f-4cf7-a765-f27c5c80a9d9_" From: Brian Aberle To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:36:33 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <1393896096.57568.YahooMailNeo@web125602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1CD55F04538DEA4F85F3ADF7745464AF24B8FA6B@S-BSC-MBX1.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca>, , <53317C81.4090608@isdg.net>, , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2014 14:36:33.0461 (UTC) FILETIME=[F334C650:01CF49C9] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Xg9WJHBc48KnJ9o4hu4FuBfnP5k Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:36:38 -0000 --_2d59db15-296f-4cf7-a765-f27c5c80a9d9_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was some interest here at IETF. I had consulted the moderators here = who suggested that a discussion could be equally as beneficial as formally = preparing an Internet Draft. However I agree with you that this concept sh= ould be summarized in a document. Currently the summary exists in code and= comments making it too inconvenient for many people to get the gist of the= idea. One person at [xml-dev] concluded this:=20 =20 "I now understand that you are attempting to optimize the management of ind= ividual instance data=2C across the web." =20 The OASIS list servers are still not functioning. The thread at [xml-dev] = is archived here: http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201403/ see : "RFC for XML Object Par= sing" =20 The timing of the malfunction at OASIS is critical in this discussion that = you can see took over [xml-dev]=2C ironically a warrant was issued for my a= rrest yesterday - about some lost court case numbers that suddenly were fou= nd. I get suddenly and unexpectedly arrested far more than the average pro= grammer - so I need to get this documented as much as possible before the b= ad guys come. =20 Censorship or Technical difficulties - we will never know. It's not been r= esolved yet. In my offline discussions someone relates it to how the gover= nment shuts down the stock market when its in an out of control state. Reg= ardless - the mirror contains enough of the discussion that was interrupted= by this bug at OASIS that we are closer to an "Internet Draft" that can be= written from a summary of that conversation rather than being forced to se= e code and examples here: http://1drv.ms/1jjcJub =20 Brian =20 Date: Thu=2C 27 Mar 2014 07:07:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! From: superuser@gmail.com To: xml4ietf@live.com CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B peter.rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca=3B hsantos@i= sdg.net On Wed=2C Mar 26=2C 2014 at 7:25 AM=2C Brian Aberle wro= te: =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= HELP! STMP is failing. Yesterday I put out in invitation for ya'll to jum= p on the thread at [xml-dev] but today I guess I got kicked off the forum b= ecause when I email the group it does not get delivered. Today the servers= at OASIS that host the open and unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list failed = to work. The message in its entirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is = provided here so that honest internet admins can debug this failure. It wa= s just one message in a thread that was getting noisy. =0A= [...] Brian=2C It's been a month since you brought this topic to apps-discuss for its cons= ideration=2C a topic about which you are clearly passionate. I have seen f= eedback suggesting that this is really the purview of the W3C which has dom= ain over XML=2C and not the IETF=3B I have seen none that suggests there's = interest in taking up this work on our side of the fence=2C or that it woul= d be appropriate for us to do so. =0A= It may be the case that you should take the time to write and submit an Int= ernet Draft with your proposal in it=2C which might demonstrate to people h= ere what you have in mind. That might make it more clear that this is work= for the IETF. =0A= Until that happens=2C I believe any interested parties should join the rele= vant W3C lists and take up the discussion over there. Browsing the relevant threads on the xml-dev archive=2C I don't see any ind= ication consistent with you being kicked off the list. I think you may hav= e run into a glitch rather than censorship. =0A= -MSK = --_2d59db15-296f-4cf7-a765-f27c5c80a9d9_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was some interest here at = IETF. =3B =3BI had consulted the moderators here who suggested that= a discussion could be equally as beneficial as formally preparing an Inter= net Draft. =3B However I agree with you that this concept should be sum= marized in a document. =3B Currently the summary exists in code and com= ments making it too inconvenient for many people to get the gist of the ide= a. =3B One person at [xml-dev] concluded this:
 =3B
"I now u= nderstand that you are attempting to optimize the management of individual = instance data=2C across the web."
 =3B
The OASIS list servers are=  =3Bstill =3Bnot functioning. =3B The thread =3Bat [xml-dev= ] is =3Barchived here:
http://www.altova.com/l= ist/xml-dev/201403/ =3B =3B see : =3B "RFC for XML O= bject Parsing"
 =3B
The =3Btiming of the malfunction at OASIS= is =3Bcritical in this discussion that you can see took over [xml-dev]= =2C ironically a warrant was issued for my arrest yesterday - =3Babout = some lost court case numbers that suddenly were found. =3B I get sudden= ly and unexpectedly arrested =3Bfar more than the average programmer&nb= sp=3B- so I need to get this documented as much as possible before the bad = guys come.
 =3B
Censorship or Technical difficulties - we will ne= ver know. =3B It's not been resolved yet. =3B In my offline discuss= ions someone relates it to how the government shuts down the stock market w= hen its in an out of control state. =3B Regardless - the mirror contain= s enough of the discussion that was interrupted by this bug at OASIS that w= e are closer to an "Internet Draft" that can be written from a summary of t= hat conversation rather than being forced to see code and examples here: http://1drv.ms/1jjcJub
 =3B
= Brian
 =3B
Date: Thu=2C 27 Mar 2014 = 07:07:39 -0700
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help!
From: superuser@gmai= l.com
To: xml4ietf@live.com
CC: apps-discuss@ietf.org=3B peter.rushfo= rth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca=3B hsantos@isdg.net

On Wed=2C= Mar 26=2C 2014 at 7:25 AM=2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B= wrote:
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
HELP! =3B STMP is failing. =3B Yesterday I pu= t out in invitation for ya'll to jump on the thread at [xml-dev] but today = I guess I got kicked off the forum because when I email the group it does n= ot get delivered. =3B Today the servers at OASIS that host the open and= unmoderated [xml-dev] mailing list failed to work. =3B The message in = its entirety=2C complete with the SMTP headers is provided here so that hon= est internet admins can debug this failure. =3B It was just one message= in a thread that was getting noisy.
=0A= [...]

Brian=2C

It's been a month since you brought this topic to apps-discuss for it= s consideration=2C a topic about which you are clearly passionate. =3B = I have seen feedback suggesting that this is really the purview of the W3C = which has domain over XML=2C and not the IETF=3B I have seen none that sugg= ests there's interest in taking up this work on our side of the fence=2C or= that it would be appropriate for us to do so.
=0A=
It may be the case that you should take the time to write an= d submit an Internet Draft with your proposal in it=2C which might demonstr= ate to people here what you have in mind. =3B That might make it more c= lear that this is work for the IETF.
=0A=

Until that happens=2C I believe any interested pa= rties should join the relevant W3C lists and take up the discussion over th= ere.

Browsing the relevant threads on the xml-dev archive= =2C I don't see any indication consistent with you being kicked off the lis= t. =3B I think you may have run into a glitch rather than censorship.=0A=

-MSK
=
= --_2d59db15-296f-4cf7-a765-f27c5c80a9d9_-- From nobody Thu Mar 27 14:42:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378DC1A0692 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eCQyKEcmsZQn for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3BF1A03C7 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f171.google.com with SMTP id q5so64677wiv.16 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=yjQf4tgnGN2SM2tex9E/1rWGtF7CeHcyDeExiaQ3+5c=; b=SbmF+UtiNAvOa2vu/1/LQjyGOLKOOJC53HGQnpBm2sM1QWR0iiMj0Lq/kJcTLvCBXc fwWqOOI0QLJrE4Y1Hyc4zbwih3rB9BXROn17WKxGOrB8JjKzVly6pnXZLfh9IADY6sFb pZTAZaRIDCziP5/y9kbY1wIQ5LiB95kOBiTWcu4pEZdwCZ/Wc/WPMuxARkWIBEHCcm+u s9DnBPmq3tBdSnerfWBbBkHrzB9sPEiQWa1yMuhMQ+sphgMDe00xZfwn8Zc//GAYWqk6 JMxqW9vErdJGFwrwPHWF+BboD+GHjJYxyDhWQWAyQp29heqDCqK3Kwxff+FGI2h6zG8J 5B6w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.187.237 with SMTP id fv13mr8072677wic.26.1395956559728; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:42:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: IETF Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c25a9cdd57dc04f59d7685 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Fh-7U8hSjnwUBsXo-YEQyQXUm8A Subject: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:42:45 -0000 --001a11c25a9cdd57dc04f59d7685 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Colleagues, The IESG Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field has resulted in the draft being sent back to the working group for reworking. In the same manner as the MT-PRIORITY work, they would like us to split the document into a standards track document that defines the SMTP extension independent of the header field, and a document not on the standards track that defines the header field as it relates to the extension. Fortunately, most of the text that goes into both of the documents already exists in the one we have now. Some of the points raised during evaluation that will need to be considered in the split are: 1) More attention should be paid to the issue of invalidating content signatures when the header field gets removed. 2) The potential for revealing information unnecessarily to end users when the message is relayed to non-participating MTAs needs to be underscored. 3) There should be a mechanism for the sender to request that the message be bounced when a relay that doesn't support the SMTP extension is encountered, rather than encouraging the tunneling option. 4) There should be stronger discouragement, possibly even a MUST NOT, for the multiple recipients case. 5) When using the header field version, there's no guarantee at all that downstream agents actually understand and will respect the semantics. In that scenario the sender is essentially tossing the message over the wall and hoping for the best. Even if the first hop supports the SMTP extension, there's no guarantee that a downstream MTA won't downgrade and be sloppy about it. To minimize the impact of this, I plan to try to produce the two documents this weekend and get them available to the WG for review. Assuming we can come to consensus quickly (the text changes shouldn't be too huge), we should be able to send this back to the IESG in just one or two telechat cycles. There's a separate issue in general about better guidance around when to use SMTP extensions vs. header fields. I tried to address that in draft-kucherawy-email-caps, which also needs some work after some review comments I've received. I'll try to do all three this weekend. Barry and Pete, please add or correct anything above as necessary. -MSK --001a11c25a9cdd57dc04f59d7685 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colleagues,

The IESG= Evaluation of draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field has resulted in the dra= ft being sent back to the working group for reworking.=A0 In the same manne= r as the MT-PRIORITY work, they would like us to split the document into a = standards track document that defines the SMTP extension independent of the= header field, and a document not on the standards track that defines the h= eader field as it relates to the extension.

Fortunately, most of the text that goes into both of the document= s already exists in the one we have now.=A0 Some of the points raised durin= g evaluation that will need to be considered in the split are:

1) More attention should be paid to the issue of invalidating content signa= tures when the header field gets removed.

2) The potential for= revealing information unnecessarily to end users when the message is relay= ed to non-participating MTAs needs to be underscored.

3) There should be a mechanism for the sender to request tha= t the message be bounced when a relay that doesn't support the SMTP ext= ension is encountered, rather than encouraging the tunneling option.

4) There should be stronger discouragement, possibly even a = MUST NOT, for the multiple recipients case.

5) When using= the header field version, there's no guarantee at all that downstream = agents actually understand and will respect the semantics.=A0 In that scena= rio the sender is essentially tossing the message over the wall and hoping = for the best.=A0 Even if the first hop supports the SMTP extension, there&#= 39;s no guarantee that a downstream MTA won't downgrade and be sloppy a= bout it.

To minimize the impact of this, I plan to try to produce the= two documents this weekend and get them available to the WG for review.=A0= Assuming we can come to consensus quickly (the text changes shouldn't = be too huge), we should be able to send this back to the IESG in just one o= r two telechat cycles.

There's a separate issue in general about better guidanc= e around when to use SMTP extensions vs. header fields.=A0 I tried to addre= ss that in draft-kucherawy-email-caps, which also needs some work after som= e review comments I've received.=A0 I'll try to do all three this w= eekend.

Barry and Pete, please add or correct anything above as nece= ssary.

-MSK
--001a11c25a9cdd57dc04f59d7685-- From nobody Thu Mar 27 15:33:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CC31A0252 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFUKhgLqa0d7 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96361A024E for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2RMX4Hf020170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:33:07 -0700 Message-ID: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:31:30 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , IETF Apps Discuss References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/3_iy2sr-0DBRxcVA6h5YS5gPqV4 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:33:12 -0000 On 3/27/2014 2:42 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > and a document not on the standards track that defines the header field > as it relates to the extension. Why should the header field not be on standards track? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Mar 27 15:36:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A796D1A0252 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YfJ5XXOUrczW for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDDB1A024E for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id y10so2895773wgg.25 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=O/7HbYRgPwM7ew7s4w+wP0H0p4NCvW96ZXK4hLB3nP0=; b=pDBYuOmDsTLDqAa0VjGlRbYNxvEbIxZddEO03cHmkmv0rLHg4vcpSM9Hd1e6UGIdLX t3GVhYOMBnEQYgk7W3BBdTO18yZn4E2iqCNKfaR9f33X7WZzp0GtA86113WPktyJpUcT FxTUd+ckcVuXlBTHL4q9oj74WQ4NyezhALglncAUr7xFgYtG5fTlMmRxV5QWoU53GfZo 66nsVALWZSAmKAbFHMOGd8nYMSaWe9Bri7Nw/A3YX+YcgYtF1kzQ2vhyVqGGGtrQ5BPF iJliJgFLeDe9J2G5KuJoktj0dYJcyGrCq/4vPgRpC3pM5CRzrMfzAghuRXdn+9q0M9QZ FP/g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.87.164 with SMTP id az4mr42830818wib.2.1395959756263; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:35:56 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444eb5b649a8404f59e358f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/YnunfmIPnPrCVltEd-haTvrV-tA Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:36:00 -0000 --f46d0444eb5b649a8404f59e358f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/27/2014 2:42 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > >> and a document not on the standards track that defines the header field >> as it relates to the extension. >> > > Why should the header field not be on standards track? > The IESG's answer to that can probably be found in the comments from the IESG ballots: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/ -MSK --f46d0444eb5b649a8404f59e358f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 3/27/2014 2:42 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
and a document not on the standards track that defines the header field
as it relates to the extension.

Why should the header field not be on standards track?

The IESG's answer to that can probably be found in the comments from the IESG ballots:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/

-MSK
--f46d0444eb5b649a8404f59e358f-- From nobody Fri Mar 28 09:06:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE8B1A0450 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4dop9M_QvwU for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744E11A0374 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2SG6R1f018508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:06:30 -0700 Message-ID: <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:04:52 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/epf_QUurdLBbwWzA8uFIF4069es Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:06:36 -0000 On 3/27/2014 3:35 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > The IESG's answer to that can probably be found in the comments from the > IESG ballots: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/ Yeah. I keep forgetting that we now have access to such things... I don't recall the rationale for the outcome of SMTP Priority, but the logic in Pete's note appears to be quite broken. Pete's argument is: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/#pete-resnick > It seems to me that the header field is a complete hack, and has > potential for screwing up content signatures when stripped, > potentially unnecessarily revealing information to the end user, and > standardizing it encourages trying to tunnel the message instead of > bouncing it when the SMTP extension fails. 1. Stripping is an issue for most header fields. And yes, it certainly will break a DKIM signature... IF the signature covers such fields and the field is stripped. The issue is general. Applied consistently, therefore, Pete's concern means that we can never make any new header field a standard. Alternatively, Pete fails to consider (recommending) simply not having the signature cover the (potentially) problematic field, or, at least, documenting the danger. 2. The concern for hiding information from the recipient does not distinguish between the intended recipient, versus an unintended recipient who now has the mailbox address. This probably makes a difference, but I won't pursue it here. In any event, the premise of the stated concern is that having the information only in the envelope somehow hides it from the recipient. Given that envelope information is regularly transferred into header fields at delivery time, this assumption is not valid. A separate question to ask is whether revealing the information matters. It might also be worth noting that most MUAs do not show more than a few, common header fields. 3. Lastly, the argument that standardization "encourages" use of the header field misses the point behind documenting it in the first place: to get consistent behavior. Pete's argument is that of a purist rather than a pragmatist. Worse, it ignores the nature and purpose of standardization, and replaces these with an aesthetic preference. Is the header field a protocol element? (yes) Is it expected to be useful? (presumably yes) Is there a better way to achieve its function? (presumably no) Does it need to be used consistently? (yes) These are the normal kinds of criteria used to determine whether something is worthy of standardization, rather than "it's a hack". The email operations world would certainly be a better place if SMTP-level adoption of options were more progressive. So the desire to rely on the SMTP option, here, makes sense. This is a delivery-related mechanism; so it's optimal to place it in the handling/delivery sub-system. But it's not practical, given long and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. Of course, it's easy to just give the IESG whatever it wants, just to move the spec along. The IETF has a long history of doing that. It also has a long history of problems with that pacification model. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Fri Mar 28 09:41:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D6C1A027F for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:41:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJmYuuvDuRQG for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-db3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db3lp0075.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.75]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF0B1A00FB for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DBXPRD0510HT003.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.252.165) by AMSPR07MB050.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.242.81.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.908.10; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:41:38 +0000 Message-ID: <018101cf4aa3$c8e7e8c0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , IETF Apps Discuss References: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:34:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.252.165] X-ClientProxiedBy: AMSPR07CA012.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.242.225.170) To AMSPR07MB050.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.242.81.24) X-Forefront-PRVS: 01644DCF4A X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(189002)(199002)(46102001)(53806001)(54316002)(56776001)(51856001)(61296002)(42186004)(31966008)(81542001)(47446002)(74502001)(66066001)(65816001)(80022001)(74706001)(74876001)(69226001)(74662001)(62966002)(14496001)(81342001)(47976001)(98676001)(50986001)(76482001)(50226001)(33646001)(77982001)(59766001)(49866001)(47736001)(93136001)(80976001)(85852003)(97336001)(4396001)(74366001)(62236002)(79102001)(97186001)(44716002)(50466002)(94946001)(76786001)(47776003)(20776003)(77156001)(77096001)(76796001)(95666003)(95416001)(89996001)(92566001)(83322001)(84392001)(85306002)(92726001)(83072002)(88136002)(90146001)(87976001)(23756003)(56816005)(87266001)(87286001)(558084003)(86362001)(93916002)(94316002)(93516002)(74416001)(7726001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AMSPR07MB050; H:DBXPRD0510HT003.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:7A95F962.96CC2EC8.785C4EB9.714E6B49.20037; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:0; LANG:en; Received-SPF: None (: btconnect.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Goppp1jvG6imduQBUxgMSKQcfzA Subject: [apps-discuss] IETF89 minutes X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:41:45 -0000 It would be good to see minutes from IETF89 before April 4th. Tom Petch From nobody Fri Mar 28 10:16:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7E01A0945 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gs-qvjC8p1te for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16A91A0939 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id k14so3723501wgh.11 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=1DFTRBb083c/rlxxB00MJiMAlZ57pS0eiDdTCd1wnug=; b=HlIJM7Cb+GYExLQJdjtnUMJUz8RuPrSSbjIjjT5yZqi/eiusNoKD6oW+D6RFPHfkdg W242LWTlmYe1lcz5v+ctRSJVr6NtHSG91amhx5H1SzGmFrUnHkLgv+8L2zb/Le6avWD7 cx0JsK03aiZ/F7C9jAIzuw6HluTU7Jnvp1pX6i1cYKWzABMJuc91mgPrbrGQTeDuuObO 5w39ILhzNSIuETjmjeZ5YyzGVxD3w8f9Q5Gc0O3mhECRqhn3PEertMxqBTMvGXJE1K8E YJ5eOCxDm6+yM9VHzXPGq4mZdfkp1JRmPrMMo8f82SnTYZQBPWZ/W51k5gGayC/GIFkV fiOA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.103.134 with SMTP id fw6mr14072504wib.8.1396027006850; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:16:46 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04430442d71d2104f5adddb0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/m6XC0H6c3Gz2P_BnWmitaJkJeFQ Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:16:53 -0000 --f46d04430442d71d2104f5adddb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > The email operations world would certainly be a better place if SMTP-level > adoption of options were more progressive. So the desire to rely on the > SMTP option, here, makes sense. This is a delivery-related mechanism; so > it's optimal to place it in the handling/delivery sub-system. But it's not > practical, given long and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. > I think this is the crux of my concern with this result. The email operations world has, as a result of a couple of decades of abuse, evolved high agility in terms of header field manipulation because all of the attacks have been focused on abuse of the content. However, there have been few (if any) attacks involving transport. That has left them with relatively zero agility in terms of adding SMTP extensions; they need to wait for vendors to provide full software releases to get a new SMTP extension, and that means it can take months or longer for very serious things like this to get handled. The disparity between operational reality and architectural purity leaves these decisions with a distinct Ivory Tower feeling. We appear to be telling email operators, the folks in the trenches, that they've been doing it wrong all these years, they can't have what they want, they need go back and do it right. Until (or, perhaps, if) that happens, they're stuck with solutions at which we turn up our noses. There doesn't seem to be any convergence either. I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need to think about how to improve it. I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps to at least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some progress, but I don't think it's going to be enough. -MSK --f46d04430442d71d2104f5adddb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocke= r.net> wrote:
The email operations world would certainly b= e a better place if SMTP-level adoption of options were more progressive. = =A0So the desire to rely on the SMTP option, here, makes sense. =A0This is = a delivery-related mechanism; so it's optimal to place it in the handli= ng/delivery sub-system. =A0But it's not practical, given long and UNrel= iable adoption of SMTP options.

I think this is the crux of my concern wit= h this result.=A0 The email operations world has, as a result of a couple o= f decades of abuse, evolved high agility in terms of header field manipulat= ion because all of the attacks have been focused on abuse of the content.= =A0 However, there have been few (if any) attacks involving transport.=A0 T= hat has left them with relatively zero agility in terms of adding SMTP exte= nsions; they need to wait for vendors to provide full software releases to = get a new SMTP extension, and that means it can take months or longer for v= ery serious things like this to get handled.

The disparity between operational reality and architectural = purity leaves these decisions with a distinct Ivory Tower feeling.=A0 We ap= pear to be telling email operators, the folks in the trenches, that they= 9;ve been doing it wrong all these years, they can't have what they wan= t, they need go back and do it right.=A0 Until (or, perhaps, if) that happe= ns, they're stuck with solutions at which we turn up our noses.=A0 Ther= e doesn't seem to be any convergence either.

I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we ne= ed to think about how to improve it.=A0 I started draft-kucherawy-email-cap= s to at least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some progress, b= ut I don't think it's going to be enough.

-MSK
--f46d04430442d71d2104f5adddb0-- From nobody Fri Mar 28 10:17:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFF41A0929 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mCXbITwyOCoc for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22f.google.com (mail-we0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450EF1A091C for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f175.google.com with SMTP id q58so2918085wes.34 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bA9PzIANGBdy72S13kXEv22v0t3y/Ed8QDf6J6BCR9g=; b=aiXpPAsuxpGjCm4v2AhgLRix9tHNsPgHMOlBjgyWjjZQwjYepOrdIb0XlRHFO+Jrd2 f2TWW+clcysrTT9kWJjSo1C9U83sWIJ47PzBr1gR2iGY0IgSpWCzy8r3JVTYSk5hf0Hr FlEzaOIMZhCCr7bQ07OTODNVe/JVXXEB3LrosH6BHnvb0xUbrU2cXep0kz/UU2QI1o46 DFU7UO9oMoL1ZtT/xwEbPSaGQluGeO0bKqvTRVF/f0qpYbjLuP3vZGNxFDF213usZJho mdSMHvwrYXky62nfdYzNm6TtgHXH1Q3JB82zBWLi4XMN5lblOER/2OgbJj6bys3uJIqZ 84QA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.105.65 with SMTP id gk1mr49743873wib.12.1396027070672; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <018101cf4aa3$c8e7e8c0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> References: <018101cf4aa3$c8e7e8c0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: "t.petch" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442708ca4f48704f5ade165 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/pY7vvea598pAp6WMUSKaIXmIa9o Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] IETF89 minutes X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:17:55 -0000 --f46d0442708ca4f48704f5ade165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 They'll be posted this weekend. On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:34 AM, t.petch wrote: > It would be good to see minutes from IETF89 before April 4th. > > Tom Petch > --f46d0442708ca4f48704f5ade165 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
They'll be posted this weekend.


On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:= 34 AM, t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
It would be good to see minutes from IETF89 = before April 4th.

Tom Petch

--f46d0442708ca4f48704f5ade165-- From nobody Fri Mar 28 10:58:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83ADE1A0670 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_B0Jw2jFWHK for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945FB1A0332 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-9-215.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.9.215]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2SHwGlC022414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:58:20 -0700 Message-ID: <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:56:41 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/VAYA4IF9OgSk6hd7O7CQfwpBDwI Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:58:24 -0000 On 3/28/2014 10:16 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker > wrote: > ... > But it's not practical, given long > and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. > > > I think this is the crux of my concern with this result. ... > I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need to think > about how to improve it. I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps to at > least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some progress, but I > don't think it's going to be enough. OK. With the above as worthy validation of my concern, I'll suggest the following path for this draft: 1. Keep the document in its current form; do not split the header field spec out. 2. Add a "Design Considerations" section that discusses any distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in formulating this mechanism. At a minimum, list and respond to Pete's concerns. While I don't think those concerns justify non-standards status, they certainly are real issues warranting commentary. To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need broader community support. d/ ps. I think your point about the differential histories as a basis for explaining differential agility is quite interesting. But I'd add the inherent and long-noted point that SMTP changes require adoption by a multi-hop, multi-administration infrastructure, whereas header fields only require adoption by author and receiver/recipient. Even an 'agile' infrastructure is far less easy to change than a pair of end-systems. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Fri Mar 28 14:14:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48E91A01F3 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZZlaSkk7kJuT for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5211A01DC for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 70239 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2014 21:14:38 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2014 21:14:38 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5335e63e.xn--3zv.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=CzZbtnBgam1nWYpqlm+gETxNtQnMEPePGN2T2gf0rds=; b=Hj8ZWxZsdQc9J2EYMJ8OFh6cjBcqZjY/w50EKRuG8RN5A9KTC+MKpMp70WYUt1SaCADD/rSR295+JzNPct350DtKzVc1cn/bgEl/uww1F0SFnNhM0ZTKQLV/YmDtAYVOWHUAeTGA0u1TSlQSAkEO7ZOwqDfmJ7XKkqm7UaB1zpzooWb/NmVHPWuzOaXPBLzN7xnGMorEfG+xJFJv8kSK4eEp8SLi93r0Reut52w3i4HTDqFXrVZhJ/D0MqccOvLF DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=5335e63e.xn--3zv.k1403; bh=CzZbtnBgam1nWYpqlm+gETxNtQnMEPePGN2T2gf0rds=; b=TYsc4gEuhX+FGnt1QYmEhWkDyo0xb1r+6t1Rdkz4pLkDiyZfZMu7WvXaRlxOVW2+iVpZ/tZf9fDWZ7NUDwZDHqdXok+ltjT6DgdfZy4ME3Vp9ij/8bV8jw+FINfDVckVnyq/5frN6kEewD954ipK8/0Fc7Kfw8hIVGDyEYK8B0UVYtwUnEHAVGFfogbjWADDrQG5dYq+/kMMHEIB2gbK9yLJk78iiRvEto1nxH2Rr5whkTGBYL2yxAdXzsvzPmcy Date: 28 Mar 2014 21:14:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20140328211416.28430.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_OEq7V2Gf4oQBF-Dv9NPcrszwnQ Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:14:44 -0000 > 2. Add a "Design Considerations" section that discusses any >distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in formulating >this mechanism. At a minimum, list and respond to Pete's concerns. >While I don't think those concerns justify non-standards status, they >certainly are real issues warranting commentary. > >To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need broader >community support. That seems reasonable to me. Keeping in mind that the original impetus for RRVS was Yahoo's header, it seems odd not to make the existing practice standards track. After all, even if it's not an ideal implementation, we're better off having people interperate as well as they can. R's, John From nobody Fri Mar 28 14:50:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A6D1A06C7 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wXm7vTKTR0rl for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22b.google.com (mail-ie0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5161A068D for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id ar20so5579068iec.16 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0Cx4fgCNegVK79GkQL3MAbD06sfBCNkyGlZU6or6pTo=; b=R0JkdqJ1YU4qwkcIBcy3CcpQMkcMFq6jyHg1ty9z3WVGlxnotBI1Rwa3sHs/Gx1njy in1sZ78acDlqK3l1sLMD+H9Gd9dvg/ZC0MN+fREOxcSxjD4Ya9C8Rrsr0HvlGgcrWe8v SRJKNwg17e3LjjB8cJGb2aUpzMLfsUKgNaL+I= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0Cx4fgCNegVK79GkQL3MAbD06sfBCNkyGlZU6or6pTo=; b=PFLuVYsgj/Zyodw+hw06ekygKgh0QqYyh2hIkEmkZWe7zJLvs6806KBjj0nOtIb2GG 34fN50ym6eY7NcQpVCf5QuH2YT23w8r0SZiIEw4HlwG7DYng+OlkbtE6kNM8+ZMKGkBo lQ7KZefznUyajPdZtcn5LJa2p5oIIxfenkmXmzkRIB/pXNRxVXMVwfpbNgGnCKaygxaV DoB5x/mGCec5ZET2oQUCEVbFl2HbXyOX6nAq657wly6XW3ZUnk3I1tnMvP7I8O9O5RM0 VJlQItyLEt6m7x8R48l7jvKkDrlV29tiiORkNGH1N195L6SeLXeUrhc47d3+mjfEgTi0 XF4g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkXTLSB+KtsiPX9p+Ci+u8qdMb3Me8CnEj6kCCNzIM6xFtTlMkNxQju6gss01JmL0y8/uvc MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.171.169 with SMTP id av9mr13999212igc.14.1396043417815; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.64.168 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:50:17 +0000 Message-ID: From: Dave Cridland To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0111c1ca02fc8204f5b1b0a4 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2gA6GjlwVxmC82nJ3YiV0ZzjRLE Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:50:21 -0000 --089e0111c1ca02fc8204f5b1b0a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 28 March 2014 17:56, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/28/2014 10:16 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker > > wrote: >> ... >> > > But it's not practical, given long > >> and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. >> >> >> I think this is the crux of my concern with this result. >> > ... > > I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need to think >> about how to improve it. I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps to at >> least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some progress, but I >> don't think it's going to be enough. >> > > > OK. With the above as worthy validation of my concern, I'll suggest the > following path for this draft: > > 1. Keep the document in its current form; do not split the header > field spec out. > > 2. Add a "Design Considerations" section that discusses any > distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in formulating this > mechanism. At a minimum, list and respond to Pete's concerns. While I > don't think those concerns justify non-standards status, they certainly are > real issues warranting commentary. > > To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need broader > community support. > > I think this is a good path to follow. I agree that the header-based solution has problems, which is why I argued it should be a fallback, but I think it's a valid fallback which needs the weight of standards-track. > > d/ > > ps. I think your point about the differential histories as a basis for > explaining differential agility is quite interesting. But I'd add the > inherent and long-noted point that SMTP changes require adoption by a > multi-hop, multi-administration infrastructure, whereas header fields only > require adoption by author and receiver/recipient. Even an 'agile' > infrastructure is far less easy to change than a pair of end-systems. > > That's an excellent principle. We could call it "end to end" or something. Dave. --089e0111c1ca02fc8204f5b1b0a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2= 8 March 2014 17:56, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 3/28/2014 10:16 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net
<mailto:dhc@dcrock= er.net>> wrote:
=A0 =A0...
> =A0 =A0But it's not practical, given long
=A0 =A0 and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options.


I think this is the crux of my concern with this result.
...

I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need to think
about how to improve it. =A0I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps to at
least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some progress, but I
don't think it's going to be enough.


OK. =A0With the above as worthy validation of my concern, I'll suggest = the following path for this draft:

=A0 =A0 =A01. =A0Keep the document in its current form; do not split the he= ader field spec out.

=A0 =A0 =A02. =A0Add a "Design Considerations" section that discu= sses any distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in formulati= ng this mechanism. =A0At a minimum, list and respond to Pete's concerns= . While I don't think those concerns justify non-standards status, they= certainly are real issues warranting commentary.

To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need broader com= munity support.


I think this is a good p= ath to follow. I agree that the header-based solution has problems, which i= s why I argued it should be a fallback, but I think it's a valid fallba= ck which needs the weight of standards-track.
=A0

d/

ps. I think your point about the differential histories as a basis for expl= aining differential agility is quite interesting. =A0But I'd add the in= herent and long-noted point that SMTP changes require adoption by a multi-h= op, multi-administration infrastructure, whereas header fields only require= adoption by author and receiver/recipient. =A0Even an 'agile' infr= astructure is far less easy to change than a pair of end-systems.


That'= ;s an excellent principle. We could call it "end to end" or somet= hing.

Dave.
--089e0111c1ca02fc8204f5b1b0a4-- From nobody Fri Mar 28 15:23:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D32A1A03C0 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ysk7No6nGLgJ for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241D71A01F3 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id tp5so5304029ieb.26 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lv8/p5mM+YpjQ04QtFLLJIXX58zElCcb0kCgr3/DMMU=; b=w0H6fzsbo9vyZWurbCtXAsv5yIUHKP+ChUH3XZidU0aGjZfMxJgQ7eiDXo4IJ/v+vo gMIUpPFDo9vt5KTGjltSCN1X8LJJ3TEIGNeoH2m6FjVplx7Va+JytLcVkvPJbqtKjLos d9kf1ZsjTv0ecujkB28UOrxBhPRCYr+qabdtcWhnh6Sgs+pC2I+2MaD2VXTOUTYfPx91 jsSoIybyYFEsqHrCLTNAJw7PRQBI3LyQTKdXbejO37N3s9dNLQ54loknjzITiEllzuWo zpNTA7KMnK+RM1crD7nxfb70eh1wT8neYZOvP0N+yQYm7rAC6ZmOX+d/9xHC+PwTm7EI Z1vA== X-Received: by 10.50.253.227 with SMTP id ad3mr40835299igd.23.1396045380840; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jtrentadams-isoc.local (c-67-166-0-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [67.166.0.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id v2sm7557340igk.7.2014.03.28.15.22.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5335F643.1040109@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:22:59 -0600 From: "J. Trent Adams" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF Apps Discuss References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Lm0P2vX4cJ_4E56gtF58PMWC_kc Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 22:23:05 -0000 I support maintaining a single document and adding the necessary clarifications. Splitting the document, IMO, will be confusing and result in fragmented deployments. - Trent On 3/28/14 3:50 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: > On 28 March 2014 17:56, Dave Crocker > wrote: > > On 3/28/2014 10:16 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker > > >> wrote: > ... > > > But it's not practical, given long > > and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. > > > I think this is the crux of my concern with this result. > > ... > > I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need > to think > about how to improve it. I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps > to at > least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some > progress, but I > don't think it's going to be enough. > > > > OK. With the above as worthy validation of my concern, I'll > suggest the following path for this draft: > > 1. Keep the document in its current form; do not split the > header field spec out. > > 2. Add a "Design Considerations" section that discusses any > distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in > formulating this mechanism. At a minimum, list and respond to > Pete's concerns. While I don't think those concerns justify > non-standards status, they certainly are real issues warranting > commentary. > > To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need > broader community support. > > > I think this is a good path to follow. I agree that the header-based > solution has problems, which is why I argued it should be a fallback, > but I think it's a valid fallback which needs the weight of > standards-track. > > > > d/ > > ps. I think your point about the differential histories as a basis > for explaining differential agility is quite interesting. But I'd > add the inherent and long-noted point that SMTP changes require > adoption by a multi-hop, multi-administration infrastructure, > whereas header fields only require adoption by author and > receiver/recipient. Even an 'agile' infrastructure is far less > easy to change than a pair of end-systems. > > > That's an excellent principle. We could call it "end to end" or something. > > Dave. > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss -- J. Trent Adams Profile: http://www.mediaslate.org/jtrentadams/ LinkedIN: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jtrentadams Twitter: http://twitter.com/jtrentadams From nobody Fri Mar 28 18:13:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C391A076F for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id un7g5ymNoysE for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0209.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA1B1A0766 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB409.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.898.11; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:13:35 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0898.005; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:13:35 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Mark Nottingham Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKcEaJNqgQQL1fEW4nlD27YvlO5q1S01ggAAFZJCAA6o8gIA+cQpw Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:13:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e0:ed43::2] x-forefront-prvs: 016572D96D x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(189002)(199002)(164054003)(24454002)(97186001)(15975445006)(74706001)(97336001)(74876001)(4396001)(81686001)(76482001)(54356001)(19580395003)(74316001)(85306002)(83322001)(74502001)(47446002)(81342001)(74662001)(56776001)(53806001)(33646001)(80976001)(54316002)(95416001)(86612001)(94946001)(49866001)(98676001)(47736001)(92566001)(90146001)(93136001)(56816005)(87936001)(2656002)(94316002)(95666003)(86362001)(46102001)(74366001)(83072002)(47976001)(51856001)(81816001)(50986001)(85852003)(93516002)(87266001)(15202345003)(69226001)(80022001)(63696002)(65816001)(20776003)(31966008)(81542001)(76786001)(77982001)(59766001)(79102001)(76576001)(24736002)(3826001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB409; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:E32FF245.9FEA9013.F2F23D4B.9EF9CE41.2074A; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/w7ULnbv7lJCvq9c6Q-ykFk_C1hk Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:13:51 -0000 Mark Nottingham wrote:=20 > * Introduction - "discourage use of the same scheme name for different > purposes." This is a bit ambiguous; e.g., I use http:// for the purposes = of > checking the weather and my bank balance, and that's OK. Suggest: > "discourage handling of a scheme by in conflicting ways." Existing text is straight from RFC 4395. How about "discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms" ? (I couldn't think of a better word than mechanisms.) Both HTTP purposes you mention use the same mechanism (the HTTP protocol) but I don't want to use protocol since a scheme name doesn't require the existence of a protocol. > * Introduction (and throughout) - there are a number of lowercase "should= " and > "may"s in the document; some people might complain. These are all straight from RFC 4395. A couple are trivial to replace wit= h other words. Otherwise, if I think it's unambiguous already, I'll leave it to see if any= one actually complains. > * Demonstratable... - s/demonstratable/demonstrable/ Done in my local copy (previously straight from RFC 4395). > * Demonstratable - "...some parts of URI processing may be scheme- > dependent." I think this needs to be stronger; at least "...are often sch= eme- > dependent." Agreed and accepted. > * CREF1 - LGTM. Thanks, removing CREF1. =20 > * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for use with r= elative > URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" character, which is used f= or > hierarchical delimiters, and the complete path segments "." and ".." (dot= - > segments). If they avoid use of "/", how do you tell what delimits dot-s= egments > from other stuff? This is straight from RFC 4395. It says they SHOULD avoid both "/" and do= t-segments. So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits them fro= m other stuff. > * Syntactic Compatibility - "...the first part of a URI is not an artisti= c indicator..." > I'd drop "artistic". Straight from RFC 4395, but accepted. > * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that do not contain a conformant > hierarchical structure in their SHOULD NOT use dou= ble > slashes following the string." Why is this not a MUST NOT? The authors of RFC 4395 which had this statement, should answer that... Tony, Ted, or Larry? I suspect the answer is because it doesn't seem to ca= use any interoperability issues if it's violated, and indeed some heuristics fo= r detecting URIs in plaintext might actually work better if it's violated. > * Well-Defined - "While URIs may or may not be defined as locators in pra= ctice, > a scheme definition itself MUST be clear..." Does this really deserve to= be a > MUST? When advice is given about what to document elsewhere in the spec, = it > always seems to be a SHOULD. Not sure if the authors of RFC 4395 have an answer but my view is... I don't know how you can call a scheme definition a "scheme definition" if = it does not actually define whether it's a locator or not. Also the "Clear Security Considerations" section (same as in RFC 4395) also= has a MUST so this isn't the only such occurrence. > * Well-Defined - "In particular, the mapping SHOULD describe the mechanis= ms > for encoding binary or character strings within valid character sequences= in a > URI." I feel like this ought to be more clearly qualified to cases where= such > content is valid for the application; some might read this as requiring a > mapping for binary in all schemes. Since I think it's already clearer in section 3.6, so how about this... OLD: In particular, the mapping SHOULD describe the mechanisms for encoding binary or character strings within valid character sequences in a URI (see Section 3.6 for guidelines). NEW: See Section 3.6 for guidelines for encoding binary or character strings within valid character sequences in a URI. =20 > * Definition of Operations - HTTP calls them "methods", and this should b= e > noted here to avoid confusing people (we saw it recently). OLD: A model for this is HTTP; an HTTP resource can be operated on by GET, POST, PUT, and a number of other operations available through the HTTP protocol. NEW: A model for this is HTTP methods; an HTTP resource can be operated on by= GET, POST, PUT, and a number of other methods available through the HTTP protocol. > * Definition of Operations - I'd like to see us encourage (but probably n= ot > require) schemes to define a *default* operation for locators; the AWWW c= alls > this "dereferencing" and = it > would be nice to align the worldviews between the W3C and IETF here. It w= ould > also be good if we encouraged such default methods to be "safe" -- that i= s, not > having surprising or undesired side effects, from the client's standpoint= . Agreed, though I'm not sure what to say about "safe" (text suggestions welc= ome). Added this sentence: Scheme definitions SHOULD define a "default" operation for when a URI is invoked (or "dereferenced") by an application. > * Scheme Name Considerations - There's a shift in use of language in this > section in the two paragraphs starting with "Avoid..." -- it's direct, fi= rst-person > advice, whereas the rest of the spec is more third-person. Yep. This was in RFC 4395 but will change for consistency. =20 > * Scheme Name Considerations - I'm very much against "private" / > organisationally scoped registrations -- is the idea that someone can the= n make > up new URI schemes without registering them? This seems counter to the > purposes of having URIs, as per the AWWW. Yes I believe that was the idea, and I don't believe it's counter to the pu= rposes of having URIs. Indeed we've learned by observation of reality that people wi= ll do that regardless of what we say. So I think the idea was to allow self-= generated unregistered ones, based on your domain name, so if they leak then at least you can be tracked down and interrogated :) =20 > * CREF2 - The HTML5 folks have spec'd (not clear if they've implemented) > web+, so we should at least talk about it. To me, the problem is that if > somebody comes along and does something like email+, which one wins -- i.= e. > do I now have to handle both email+web+http:// and web+email+http:// as > equivalent? Bleurgh. This is part of ticket #16 which the WG discussed at IETF. The rough consensus in the room was not to allow this, hence removed cref2 and closed the ticket. > * CREF3 - As per above, I think that allowing domain-based URI schemes is= a > Bad Idea. What's the use case? Was already allowed in RFC 4395. See response above. I don't want to disallow existing things that are already legal unless ther= e's strong consensus to do so, since that won't cause people to use unregistered schem= es, removing that guidance would just cause people to use unregistered schemes that you can't track down to someone, which is IMO a worse state. =20 > * Guidelines for Provisional URI Scheme Registration - The first paragrap= h > indicates that provisional is for "private" schemes. I think we need to h= ave a > discussion about that in the WG (perhaps in a separate thread), because A= FAICT > provisional is NOT being used that way; rather, it's being used to reserv= e > namespace for parties that can't be bothered doing full registration. Tha= t's not > to say that there's something wrong with that; as the draft points out, o= ne > motivation is to make registration easier; it's just that we should be ho= nest > about why we have provisional - I'd rather not encourage private URI use = at all > (but keep provisional). No, it doesn't indicate the provisional is for "private" schemes. It (same= as RFC 4395) says it's for schemes that are NOT private. Here's the text: Provisional registration can be used for schemes that are not part of any standard, but that are intended for use (or observed to be in use) outside a private environment within a single organization. The key word is "outside" a private environment. It sounds like you read = it (as "inside") opposite to how it was intended. I changed "outside" to "that is not limited to" in the hopes that's clearer. > * Registration Procedures - I'd be much more comfortable if there were > references in this section to the previous requirements; people often jus= t skip to > this section in this kind of RFC, oblivious to the carefully prepared req= uirements > and arguments above. In an ideal world, I'd restructure the draft so that= the > whole thing read like a flow chart, but I'm not going to ask the WG to do= that :) I can't tell if you're suggesting something actionable above or not. If so, can you give an example of what you'd like to see? > * Registration Procedures - "Unless Expert Review has explicitly rejected= the > registration request within two weeks, IANA should automatically add the > registration to the registry as 'provisional." I'm a bit uncomfortable w= ith this; if > the Experts aren't on the ball, get sick, go on holiday, etc., we can end= up with > some surprising results. Can we just raise an exception to the ADs or > something? The above sentence will go away in the next rev since there was general sup= port for changing Provisional to FCFS. -Dave From nobody Fri Mar 28 18:51:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86891A025C for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l1bVLEToCons for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0142.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2041A0007 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB411.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.898.11; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:51:41 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0898.005; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:51:41 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Graham Klyne Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKcEaJNqgQQL1fEW4nlD27YvlO5q1S01ggAAFZJCABA9ugIA+JeWA Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:51:39 +0000 Message-ID: <9121a06bf6754bf79110394112390b07@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <5301FD29.5000401@ninebynine.org> In-Reply-To: <5301FD29.5000401@ninebynine.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e0:ed43::2] x-forefront-prvs: 016572D96D x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(199002)(189002)(54094003)(164054003)(24454002)(51914003)(49866001)(47736001)(4396001)(47976001)(81342001)(81542001)(69226001)(94316002)(50986001)(47446002)(31966008)(74662001)(74366001)(80976001)(74316001)(76786001)(76576001)(81686001)(74502001)(81816001)(83322001)(85306002)(92566001)(87936001)(2656002)(90146001)(87266001)(98676001)(93516002)(86612001)(94946001)(56816005)(93136001)(86362001)(83072002)(85852003)(95416001)(54356001)(33646001)(65816001)(63696002)(80022001)(20776003)(95666003)(53806001)(76482001)(46102001)(51856001)(79102001)(74876001)(56776001)(77982001)(59766001)(74706001)(54316002)(97186001)(97336001)(561944002)(24736002)(3826001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB411; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:EEACFC25.96FAD132.F2D331AB.CEE8C932.2082E; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/sPrktm8740hHQde-Xj4wP4rjDRM Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:51:51 -0000 Responding in detail as I'm editing the document to address... Graham Klyne wrote: > I'm responding with a perspective of being the current designated IANA > reviewer. > Broadly, I'm supportive of the changes proposed, and in particular to l= ower > the perceived barrier to provisional registration of schemes. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 3: "For IETF Standards-Track documents, Permanent registration st= atus > is REQUIRED." -- I can guess at what this is trying to say, but I think = it's not > clear (and I wonder if it needs to be saif at all). It seems clear to me, can you elaborate? I think it does need to be said. When the IETF does a standards-track doc= ument, the authors/WG should be looking at the Permanent registration requirements= , not the lower bar. > ... >=20 > Section 3.3 ("well defined"). One of the first questions I ask myself wh= en > reviewing a URI scheme proposal is: "What kinds of thing do URIs in this > scheme identify, or how do I find out?". I'd like to see all scheme regi= strations > providing a clear answer for this. Agreed. (I think Mark argued for dropping the "MUST be clear as to how it = is=20 expected to function" to a SHOULD, but I agree this should stay a MUST for Permanent registrations.) =20 > One of the problems I have sometimes experienced in reviewing URI scheme > registration submissions is understanding what the corresponding scheme i= s > intended to identify. If it is a locator, then it's usually fairly clear= . But some > schemes I've seen - particularly where used as particular identifiers wit= hin > other protocols - have been less clear (in their original submissions). > Recent(ish) examples that come to mind are acct:, turn: and stun: (not > criticizing them, just trying to give examples of things that are not alw= ays > immediately clear). >=20 > I think the text "Schemes that are not intended to be used as locators SH= OULD > describe how the resource identified can be determined or accessed by > software that obtains a URI of that scheme." goes some way to this, but t= hat > was present in the previous draft and didn't always get noticed. Also, t= here is > not always a mechanism that is available to software (e.g. urn":). I'm > wondering if this can be beefed up a bit... e.g. to lead with something l= ike: >=20 > "URI scheme specifications should be clear about the kind of resource tha= t they > may identify, or the means (technical or non-technical) by which URIs are > related to the resources they identify" > > My text could surely be improved. =20 Personally, I find that less clear than the current sentence, not sure what= others think. I don't have a better suggestion right now. > The first part of this would apply to a > scheme like "acct:" saying that an acct: URI identifies a user account in= some > domain or system (**); the latter would apply to locator schemes like htt= p:, or > identifier schemes like urn: where there is a defined administrative dele= gation > structure. >=20 > >=20 > In making this comment, I also note there is some slight overlap with mat= erial > covered in section 3.4. Perhaps. Not sure if there's anything actionable there though. Better to = have slight overlap than a slight gap, I guess. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 3.8: >=20 > Re: "[[CREF2: Open Issue: Should we define a mechanism to register a sch= eme > prefix ("web+", "ms-", etc.)? --DT]]" >=20 > I think not. >=20 > I've not come across any great need for this, and I think it might even > encourage scheme proliferation in conflict with the exhortations in secti= on 3.1 > ("In general, the use and deployment of new schemes in the Internet > infrastructure may be costly; ...", etc.) Removed CREF2 and closed ticket. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 4 >=20 > re: [[CREF4: Open issue: previously this also RECOMMENDED following the > same guidelines as for permanent registration. However, this higher > bar disincented people to register schemes at all, and hence > interfered with the goals of the registry. Hence tentatively > removed, but need to confirm consensus on this. --DT]] >=20 > I've not seen any cases where this has been a problem, but maybe that's > because I mainly see a self-selecting population ;) (I.e. those who have= actually > submitted a registration request.) This was discussed at IETF 89 and there was rough consensus in the room for lowering the bar for Provisional. > Some time ago, we started creating a FAQ/guidance page at IANA for a simi= lar > registry (message header fields), with the goal of demystifying the proce= ss and > encouraging early registration. Unfortunately, that effort fizzled (thou= gh I think > an initial draft is still around on an IETF/IANA wiki page.) >=20 > Maybe this kind of approach would be an alternative? I.e. create a FAQ, = and > direct readers to that page for provisional registration. The FAQ-as-gui= dance > can then be updated more easily than the BCP document (within its defined > constraints). I have no objections if people want a wiki page too. But since I can tell = you most people defining (non-IETF) schemes don't read RFC 4395 or register their schemes, so they might not find or read a wiki page either. In some sense Wikipedia's page IS that wiki page already. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 7.1 >=20 > [[CREF8: Open Issue: Should Provisional status just use First Come > First Serve? Someone suggested FCFS with Expert Review afterwards, > but the benefit and efficacy of a subsequent Expert Review seems > dubious to me and might only serve to deter registrations in the > first place, which is the problem we're trying to solve. --DT]] >=20 > Given the limited nature of URI scheme name space, I think that IESG/IANA > should always have final say about name allocation. Given that we try to= keep > the bar low, I feel formal FCFS makes it too easy to use provisional regi= stration > as a land grab - writing that into the spec would make it harder for an e= xpert > reviewer to push for alternatives where appropriate. (I think there is o= ne > occasion in the past few years where the choice of name has been cause fo= r > push-back, so it's not a great problem.) >=20 > As reviewer, I have tried to treat the role as providing guidance rather = than as > gatekeeper (I don't think I've ever recommended rejection of a provisiona= l > registration request, though I do often make comments), so I'm a little t= roubled > by the perception that expert review is a deterrent. Can we do something= in > the spec language to make this less of a concern? >=20 > E.g. "The purpose of expert review applied to provisional registration is= not > intended to impose onerous requirements on the proposals offered, but as = a > light-touch process to promote effective cooperative use of URI scheme na= me > space." I responded to this already, but will now note that this was discussed at I= ETF 89 and there was rough consensus in the room for FCFS with a Notes column, but also to ask for input from the W3C on this change. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 7.1: >=20 > [[CREF9: TODO: We don't want this. --??]] >=20 > I'm not sure what it is you don't want. I responded to this earlier too (by saying the "??" isn't me, so I don't kn= ow :) > I think it is useful that the IESG can be final arbiter, as it provides s= ome room > for making decisions that are not in strict accordance with the process > requirements, without kicking the door open to making arbitrary and capri= cious > decisions. There have been a few cases (I forget details) where the spec= ific > drafting of the process has seemed to be at odds with a common sense "do = the > right thing" approach - having a way to accommodate these within a clearl= hy > documented framework seems useful to me. I wonder if the issue is that the sentence it's attached to (below) implies= the IESG is informed after the fact rather than having to approve a procedure v= ariance: If parties achieve consensus on a registration proposal that does not fully conform to the strict wording of this procedure, this should be drawn to the attention of a relevant member of the IESG. But having to approve it makes the process less lightweight and non-content= ious. I'm happy to remove the cref unless a co-author objects and explains the is= sue :) >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 7.2: >=20 > [[CREF10: Open Issue: I think the last > phrase above about RFC 3978 is problematic, as it just serves to > discourage registration. For example, third-party registrations > may have no way to grant such rights or make such assertions. > Similarly, a standard published by another SDO may have policy/ > process issues having a request treated as an IETF contribution. > Recommend deleting this sentence. --DT]] >=20 > I'd suggest that at least the registration template submitted to IANA be = treated > as "IETF contribution", even if the rest of the document cannot, since IA= NA may > need to republish that much. The registration template itself can be sho= rt and > consist mainly of pointers to other documents, so I don't think that shou= ld be a > great disincentive. This is linked to the issue of whether some fields can be moved into the defining document (which might not be treated as an IETF contribution) out of the registration template (which is treated as an IETF contribution)= . At IETF 89, it was agreed by those in the room that it was okay in principl= e to move fields with technical information (other than the scheme name) into the defining document. So I think that results in resolving this open= issue as you suggest. >=20 > ... >=20 > Section 7.2: >=20 > [[CREF11: Open Issue: Say > more about guidance to the Designated Expert. Under what > circumstance should this happen? --DT]] >=20 > I'm not sure what guidance you have in mind here. Generally, I'd expect > upgrades from provisional to permanent to meet the same requirements as > permanent registrations (with provision for IESG last-say as noted above)= . >=20 > That's pretty much covered in section 7.3. I responded in other email already with an explanation of the question. (The email you responded to with "TL;DR" :) >=20 > ... >=20 > [[CREF12: Open Issue: Some of the fields above may serve to deter > registration. Should some of them NOT be required for Provisional > registrations (including third-party ones)? For example, the > requirement to have clear security considerations is not appropriate > for third-party registrations. Typically one is forced to fill in > something like "Unknown, use with care." These seem to me to be more > appropriate inside the specification (if any) in the references, > rather than being required in the request template. Thus, as new > specifications update the uses (e.g., allow use with another HTTP > method), the IANA registry itself shouldn't be required to be > updated. --DT]] >=20 > Fair points. Part of the problem here, I think, is that the template ser= ves two > purposes: (a) registering a scheme that is fully described elsewhere, in = which > case its mainly a pointer to that specification, and (b) describing a sch= eme in > use that is not described in another document (which could really apply o= nly for > provisional or historic schemes). I think the goal now is (a) and specifically not (b). To accomplish (b), y= ou=20 can create some other document or wiki page (which need not necessarily be an "IETF contribution") and point to it. >=20 > I think the headings (especially security considerations) are useful as > reminders of things to think about and maybe provide additional informati= on. >=20 > Maybe the template could be restructured as key information (Name, status= , > context of use, contact, change controller, and references); then have > "Additional information" with sub-headings to be filled in as required, a= nd all > optional for provisional registrations? >=20 > ... >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > #g Thanks for the careful review, -Dave From nobody Sat Mar 29 10:55:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480801A06B4 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVsGISt_vxJ7 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntbbs.winserver.com (dkim.winserver.com [208.247.131.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641161A06A5 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=5977; t=1396115734; h=Received:Received: Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject: List-ID; bh=su6Zs0h6Ri9BNC1ZQg2IAKnNRPQ=; b=RG4NnRw7vxZJdF9XSthX fgZZQVX4MWZ8yHdhl8n4mOGOd6VVOpBiRlPEwhx7e+/HPfdN/+v6LcJZ4TJ5qqA2 2DKKEoyTwiKgH85Awv6Vubca8auezD+714JREJlpeIp1ZEj1QY1nAfCuqKlZAINY VDRx+RK3TaXyCMDNBp4ful4= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:55:34 -0500 Authentication-Results: dkim.winserver.com; dkim=pass header.d=beta.winserver.com header.s=tms1 header.i=beta.winserver.com; adsp=pass policy=all author.d=isdg.net asl.d=beta.winserver.com; Received: from hector.wildcatblog.com (opensite.winserver.com [208.247.131.23]) by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 1103195571.8462.4364; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:55:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=beta.winserver.com; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/relaxed; l=5977; t=1396115696; h=Received:Received: Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=qq8ZTOx lT6Zigpsw9v+22tz4IHp1dDLdrUZoqvAZ/6k=; b=GGTPW/O3i5E5bGkRag6mBvN Bd2qncwhzDY3hXOMLeEGfXwKcuvZjmu7BzxT2QqAtWbLHpRKY46tUiJVH5nY3UEQ O9w3/KJ1GkLbtlv7UE0lXqD50tLVNg9Lmc7/4LpYpieZfCj8Pywvw5HQbd2oNvdF AUoupo46E0dL7pFdarRI= Received: by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:54:56 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([99.121.4.27]) by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 549452382.9.16016; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:54:55 -0400 Message-ID: <53370919.4000300@isdg.net> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:55:37 -0400 From: Hector Santos Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , Dave Crocker References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/yegq4m6x5w9QF02mGX3asd0bp44 Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 17:55:49 -0000 On 3/28/2014 1:16 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Dave Crocker > wrote: > > The email operations world would certainly be a better place if > SMTP-level adoption of options were more progressive. �So the > desire to rely on the SMTP option, here, makes sense. �This is a > delivery-related mechanism; so it's optimal to place it in the > handling/delivery sub-system. �But it's not practical, given long > and UNreliable adoption of SMTP options. > > > I think this is the crux of my concern with this result.� The email > operations world has, as a result of a couple of decades of abuse, > evolved high agility in terms of header field manipulation because all > of the attacks have been focused on abuse of the content.� However, > there have been few (if any) attacks involving transport.� Accept/Bounce Mail Attacks, SORBIG? That is what made the emergency MARID to happen. > That has > left them with relatively zero agility in terms of adding SMTP > extensions; they need to wait for vendors to provide full software > releases to get a new SMTP extension, and that means it can take > months or longer for very serious things like this to get handled. I see your point, but SMTP software has evolved. Not sure from your perspective and/or package you are use to using, but the concept of adding what we called HOOKS, SHIMS, CALLBACKS, etc, at the SMTP State Machine points has evolved. The point it well taken that it could be: native op-code compiled p-code compiled, or interpretive and the more you have with intepretive scripting, the more "Agile' you are, where its more and APPLICATION LEVEL solution now as opposed to SYSTEM LEVEL. With P-code and interpretive language systems, you need a RTE (run time engine). The packages do support this higher level of programmability. I know ours does. What I don't think I have ever seen though (I don't recall it), nor the need to add the logic for passing RCPT TO modifiers to programmable scripts For MAIL FROM, there exist a quite a few extension, i.e. SIZE, SUBMITTER. SIZE was built in. I believe with SUBMITTER, we finally made it flexible so that the entire MAIL FROM was passed to scripts. So I get this point of why the header method adds "agility." However, that also comes with a design presumption that the all SMTP packages have evolved to doing DATA level payload scripting. Keep in mind that there has been old and new (relatively) expressed processing delay concerns with the increased amount payload related scripting. For us, the delays have reached a point where the RTE needed to have a GLOBAL DEFAULT TIMER to avoid unexpected DATA processing delays by the open-ended scripts written by operators and 3rd party developers. > The disparity between operational reality and architectural purity > leaves these decisions with a distinct Ivory Tower feeling.� We appear > to be telling email operators, the folks in the trenches, that they've > been doing it wrong all these years, they can't have what they want, > they need go back and do it right.� Until (or, perhaps, if) that > happens, they're stuck with solutions at which we turn up our noses.� > There doesn't seem to be any convergence either. I'm not sure what that all means, but it sounds like you are suggesting that most SMTP package are not flexible enough. I guess we all get a different perspective based on what SMTP packages one is using. I would agree that we did add more power to DATA processing but that was because of the need to give operators more PAYLOAD processing power. It doesn't scale when your operators begin to add multiple scripts as they come along to do the different things. We have, for example, the default stock scripts at the DATA level: RFC 5322 Validity/Sanity Check (Remember double From potential exploit?) DKIM verification Greylist checking White Listing Carbon Copies Forwarding And we got at least dozen new scripts being explored in R&D, So I understand the agility idea, but then again these were PAYLOAD level needs. RRVS is not a PAYLOAD solution. Thats the "Kludge" that pete talks about. You call it a "Tunnel." In that regard, I agree with the separation, but I also do believe this all is an experiment. We have not been able to explore or test this idea with anyone. There is no interop report and there are still too much CON vs PRO on this. Unless we can explore this, we support the idea -- not the rush to standardize it yet. > I think that chasm is a large and growing problem, and we need to > think about how to improve it.� I started draft-kucherawy-email-caps > to at least describe the problem and hopefully encourage some > progress, but I don't think it's going to be enough. Switch your software! :) Of course, we can't publicly preach that... right? Can we do a generic solution? If anything, we need to update RFC5321 to perhaps add a section that deals with SHIMS, HOOKS, CALLOUT flexibility and designs and adds SMTP process model flexibility in passing variable state machine parameters. Short of telling people to switch to your "Favorite" smtp package, that is the best we can do. But do keep in mind, the packages have evolved and this should not be a reason to always push for a PAYLOAD solution. If it belongs at SMTP, then thats were it belongs. What you can do is add a 2nd WRAPPER solution. I think this what Pete is suggesting. I suppose reducing the complexity would have with the SMTP extension standard. So I can support this split, but overall, I still strongly believe we are still at the experimental stage. I don't think we worked out all the details and thats probably because it looks to me, we only got two domains attempting to work this out with others being able to test it with them. -- HLS From nobody Sat Mar 29 11:40:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C4B1A06C3 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Smy6tWtF4rSe for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCA11A06B8 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id q107so2231288qgd.25 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=iq0d4gbt2ObZkmjPSyp1pcm1NGyotwpiO3piuGbmrBc=; b=WR8YqKAALmAvTp6IfL1t15XipnBrQERXRtTgmHCgI5+TcRqOLfD7WJr33bgEi1q44W fh2dSVp0kPyWwaD1Z7xt6zGdGiUuUb6pK0XupRsantn+wfcrix8XX9o4pW3PTfOqyTlc oMMVwJm6BmL/AvuZRlhdbK7sXeoO7W3MxHIS9vzcTsPtmB8ELJdR5XUzDXCkp+8xF/wK 7kxHudZLCcKZJGOdb2FbpUxsMrbEK3333yq1N94RY1JSUe+IYcWWcyrpptdmB71T5OfN zoNuxap+E2jF0j09HCtau4ZrbQQ1M6wavlu4mem7a8qzh9YecS8pQ63O9/+vKfgZSmaU MdPw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.127.129 with SMTP id g1mr17116110qas.22.1396118431314; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.94.165 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> <5335B7D9.1010605@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 14:40:31 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: BtW6GD5JXDRfLmzFRWEeLNixSxQ Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/76CAWX6TpiO7uRbWEk_gjPrOpo4 Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:40:35 -0000 To make some clarification here: Splitting the document was a suggestion for how to deal with this. I support that suggestion. But no one made it a requirement, and one answer the working group can give about that is "No, we do not think that's the right way to proceed." Similarly, making the header-field portion Experimental also wasn't a requirement. That came from pointing out that the mt-priority document was made Experimental. One thing that would help greatly here would be feedback from Alexey (or others) about how that experiment has worked out. That said, this protocol has much greater issues with the header field than mt-priority does. Mt-priority is a best-effort attempt to get priority handling for certain messages, under certain conditions. If that handling is given when it shouldn't be, there's a certain level of "damage", but it's not likely severe. Similarly if it's not given when it should be. But there's no data leakage, no privacy issues, nothing of that sort. Given the use cases this document puts forward, I don't see how a header field is workable at all. The sender isn't *really* saying, do your best, but I don't much care whether you get it right. Modulo the understanding that one can never be *certain*, what the sender is saying here is that it would be bad for this to be delivered to the wrong recipient, to the point that I'd rather have it bounce than for that to happen. That sort of request can only be handled by an SMTP change, where support by the next hop is discoverable, and where the message can be bounced if there's no support. Once you stick it into a header field, it becomes a total crap-shoot. The sender has *no* idea whether any party along the line is listening to the request at all. Despite the ease of deployment using header fields, for the use cases we're talking about here the header field just seems to be a bad implementation. I would say that that's the primary issue you need to address if you really want to keep the header field (and I honestly don't understand why you do). > OK. With the above as worthy validation of my concern, I'll suggest the > following path for this draft: > > 1. Keep the document in its current form; do not split the header > field spec out. > > 2. Add a "Design Considerations" section that discusses any > distinctive or potentially controversial choices made in formulating this > mechanism. At a minimum, list and respond to Pete's concerns. While I don't > think those concerns justify non-standards status, they certainly are real > issues warranting commentary. > > To pursue this path -- pushing back on the IESG -- we will need broader > community support. Yes to (2) and the unnumbered (3), clearly. Barry From nobody Sat Mar 29 15:27:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BD11A07E9 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgiU66svoBrg for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF521A07E2 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 53063 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2014 22:27:16 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2014 22:27:16 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=533748c4.xn--9vv.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=MPwHHsVx+XgO0ZMmqAznWquQw1MVF2IaStLq3LM+V6k=; b=CdajUY4RIG1KDXNrGachQGo17WrZLKIXYPXfbWyzdTs2a6KetAjzQdiPL9kJNFgcXCtYl+1i8awK/yjsmDL27TBYllXMfXXlzDuuRPXObIjx6YVifel2ugbbfvTfJWK5S0M0DhZys59pbRQv+NVnyyPQVeB69wA7WeLScGFAay+IRlj/SqW9ArChw4EFyyrlBFveOFwezqkJxb9VpJj7tRnzRFUeluLNSTKjfN2Bu1OLGlAp9FKxH9e/8Pr4sgct DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=533748c4.xn--9vv.k1403; bh=MPwHHsVx+XgO0ZMmqAznWquQw1MVF2IaStLq3LM+V6k=; b=CQBi2yKnTa8Ar9SFJibG4Pn56MfxixYb1Rx57/gDfYvrA7ob0mnZFCQBc180V9ELHa5bHFK518sZHwC+StiigYtBCxmVdw0txy+8K8UZFCPU0elUhVvtVsLG0pUFz32/1MhNCtzQj2MZqLw7sdV8SXhyDpPUhQ9/Z3w3O//EkbmPmomU310DAyOSimJJd6zMdLjRunFj97Z7t5r9SKI+GDB06yvQpQHDSD+46d+Ko75eerQJp41WmHR5XR0Po9qN Date: 29 Mar 2014 22:26:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/zOTK0cdXjJ4vXCbAX7I4I3NbMSQ Cc: barryleiba@computer.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:27:22 -0000 >header field [isn't] workable at all. The sender isn't *really* saying, do >your best, but I don't much care whether you get it right. We've been sending mail without RRVS for 30 years, so it can't be all that urgent. Just like everything else a sennder says, RRVS is somewhere between a request and a suggestion to the recipient. So now after 30 years of mail landing in reassigned mailboxes, we have a tiny twiddle that allows senders to send a suggestion about what to do with it. While I entirely understand all the ways that the RRVS header might fail, in practice it's most likely to be useful in mail to large webmail systems, most mail to those systems takes a pretty simple path, and in most cases it'll do what it's supposed to do. It is also my impression that Yahoo has actually implemented the header, while nobody other than maybe Ned has implemented the SMTP extension. So put in all the warnings about how the header could screw up, and perhaps a suggestion not to include it in DKIM signatures, but this is existing practice. We'll look silly if we make the experiment standards track and the running code experimental. R's, John From nobody Sat Mar 29 15:40:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F4F1A0809 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfkU0_TutsQO for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x232.google.com (mail-qa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78B41A07FC for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id o15so6570689qap.23 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yeL5tNIfBi1JlmcaTKQ+wlS2ll5K7GhH6BNolhqk8/o=; b=bdMV1aGSJ+vjVIB0xGOn5hSLb+Cq6znhlx9tkrKIXB/hSRZuu0FpGLLV7ajJRfnNgw yMVObQdudHZITN7jfagI5FpPbCFSa7dzTSJMa/+rt4umAgQ8W5PPXYLLeTlBlaZEEODF pQSxxn0PD7XXJfQy1A+FMdz1+SJjkg+oMTQs5ne4Dz7ICCPZkrwtsK0QXVMFJzGE8MfE aoofNklsG6xxo7WVsIaUZvog0CDbkeypCZSt3ljposjmlP7S2cHTJJpZFcL8Slmo2yC/ sAlxhS6GCoSHEZod0vzcEeWxj6asQzoOQuyJrn5Cecluu2tp+q5ezHaVXK7vJpn8yLpH OVYw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.85.21 with SMTP id m21mr16967314qgd.40.1396132851225; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.136.134 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:40:51 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hjc5IBBDPja6TJeUtpv7W9_WnoE Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: John Levine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/8E-fddPMbQS3tTnvOzxAMy7D7u4 Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:40:55 -0000 > We've been sending mail without RRVS for 30 years, so it can't be all > that urgent. Then why bother with it at all? If you're going to have it at all, it ought to be done in a way that has some reasonable assurance that it will be paid attention to. > my impression that Yahoo has actually implemented the header, while > nobody other than maybe Ned has implemented the SMTP extension. Maybe -- just maybe -- standardizing the extension and not the header will be a push to change that. > So put in all the warnings about how the header could screw up, and > perhaps a suggestion not to include it in DKIM signatures, but this > is existing practice. If that's the consensus, then so be it. I think it'd be sad to limit it to that... but, yes, as John says, better than nothing. Barry From nobody Sat Mar 29 15:51:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2681A07FE for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:51:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOxjsd2ZSfxi for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795BD1A07FC for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 15:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 56049 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2014 22:51:18 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=daf0.53374e66.k1403; bh=vHK3wN7YK5o+3y2rI+W2mfEvauGeR4Bz/XV9jPexDBQ=; b=W1it8sURT3D4ZSgfF/pRrKEb1bkHA+qiqP6Jmpgi5SLVoC+k8LUAv8RCmmTV5qufUv2nP5myU3RVhdcKLV3cPskRMWjqPjCZW119CAJIEWXpmkL1cWJtt0D3Dm/CxwEt5q9dfYK8NbjOhW34vCbk3oHK5zLrhNpnk7Qp4A2No6XVWhc6DEXbzjpisqnT2H60lkIgAIT4R+s/Owy9NznnOVKb3XzJ0xD7GuBZFPe/C3rpA/BIUg5jJWrKdAqBMXDE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=daf0.53374e66.k1403; bh=vHK3wN7YK5o+3y2rI+W2mfEvauGeR4Bz/XV9jPexDBQ=; b=BHsnK/oqFzQamNlb77jsqQntK24h+017sCHPeUdnsApYz5JuzwcxubJcQgeYRotk4vLWbomcJeeu27NyegtFS8AdxsLDUJpPSUzl/Ie6qSoJFv7GaXm1Hi7HHjcU4L/rduhV8vnDwXRaNZkbM9ZgYW8+R6H+N8WKHmp0OuMRLnXUKPYVtdFDz97Sw+3mALV3EyZ6BuF+G2ViRVW0uZHnHPFXGwVXGEQDwr/hhMOkXM17VPdKLGgIY1pzmnc9Ci1s Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 29 Mar 2014 22:51:17 -0000 Date: 29 Mar 2014 18:51:17 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Barry Leiba" In-Reply-To: References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_ZlGKsN6sntqcwvRcF1AEFUtYFQ Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:51:22 -0000 >> We've been sending mail without RRVS for 30 years, so it can't be all >> that urgent. > > Then why bother with it at all? It's an incremental security improvement. I'd think you could have made the same argument against DKIM, SPF, and S/MIME. >> my impression that Yahoo has actually implemented the header, while >> nobody other than maybe Ned has implemented the SMTP extension. > > Maybe -- just maybe -- standardizing the extension and not the header > will be a push to change that. I'm not planning to implement it, but I've never reused a mail address. It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are reused are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have any plans to do an SMTP extension. R's, John From nobody Sat Mar 29 16:00:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DF41A07FE for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VYbvkRX3gc1N for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22d.google.com (mail-qc0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CC21A06B9 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id r5so7483640qcx.18 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Y5RQrlOYCWCYfV5MMrLYGoPHZhIi5P8yQuM8h2yJOyc=; b=L8P/14vUB6AthODAFjZyf3YRXV+6k/QEXEStOGeEw1OXm0CbXNPotbjKznPUu6/rLh TPA5bsCreSsPU9vdWDF+qe22W0aAKfDnu92uj+u9VRHxd9U1XmgeXFqkJcc/kd0jLXW4 zrL/7awzoP++rCcRubWl0oHO5rrmdJn+2xKZRgauni+8xgIDaY3qvcz5qxEOEQcXFElP rGOJGIwNxBApwimI8veoppMdf7ESGc4tM9r7n/0pDKf12JDOYhnAF5XD9ICyZPT9YUHt vSE/s12H2jsey/k239QH0XzEpwh7gt6o6dfrvgt10Wt9AEXujk0mF11jyyy0XYzo2Yjx ferA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.176.72 with SMTP id bd8mr18154146qcb.12.1396134025032; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.136.134 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:00:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:00:24 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f2tYEZSASd5vVLaBj6_xNhvXrwo Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: John R Levine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/VfSPX1Edupnm2yFAf9NNMbsVGSs Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:00:28 -0000 > It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are reused > are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have any > plans to do an SMTP extension. Is that the right question? Or is the better question "How many WOULD implement it if it were standardized?" b From nobody Sat Mar 29 16:08:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A201A07FE for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C3jziYKfx5eg for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759971A06B9 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 57795 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2014 23:08:19 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=e1c2.53375263.k1403; bh=h84KihMSlP4RaRVw5oHnUfShZgigklG76xan0XqNJWQ=; b=D56ilmncoaXccUbDLRKcnqNLfjNqMBxXc5fNJkmtUCnh1r6SL0etWpYLX4bPqdTbIUyCrCXJ+DNFFeshkDGERd+im8Y3pNo3TiKbLyPElPDQdHLLIuNllU0IukeBIc3XeqAb2YlGoD9BsmaJu9pSWW6jQtg9nXnaY0028+R2j02/j5QiQTLnigrSJoVEAtndo+h4/xlg3fJCjcVe2Im5iEnxQ7A6gzl6zS9b4NHKga79+PPqeZzjNIIdnzF7M0EU DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=e1c2.53375263.k1403; bh=h84KihMSlP4RaRVw5oHnUfShZgigklG76xan0XqNJWQ=; b=zufTz+FhwmIBaZ/FOoqwK2roPVRzHIML4K5SygszvOpa4s9f9L++MkiVyZnCZQfpj60YEMqVnLU3DgoKrgHKF+JAqt+28AEpWJ0r8meXG5IK7Q9eTlU+/wfjVbSNwt4veT0ThgvLiB6YX1D+Gg3sZ4d1htrMujxzyZ6qh6Fn/VtHFKReJMGQrx0L8lNKQAoekcgb9uPFfV9SYhXS75ZgqqkLJtxlYgwPb+XXP03YxrMLcGP9TDFiRFCK9LbrDdas Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 29 Mar 2014 23:08:19 -0000 Date: 29 Mar 2014 19:08:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Barry Leiba" In-Reply-To: References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/Sh1E5n70wMSF82dGl4sZQdhlJPU Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:08:24 -0000 >> It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are reused >> are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have any >> plans to do an SMTP extension. > > Is that the right question? Or is the better question "How many WOULD > implement it if it were standardized?" Given that we know people at all of the relevant organizations, I don't think the two questions are likely to have very different answers. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. From nobody Sat Mar 29 16:16:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A98E1A0810 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQ00lCcoxEC2 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340911A06B9 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 58624 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2014 23:16:21 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2014 23:16:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53375445.xn--hew.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=NeAlEQQtZJkoQAJvB+QmC873kfXQ+w+tCnZWEzzd/h0=; b=OsrqsTa+CckFIPqxzPXszxRf9NBA96s6pMuSYNkboejNxZ7v1KU5SGh+F2Iaodr8xWWfBKe7quuc1ugy4uq+F4XjMXLbMr0i9apOuXxbuDeMqQrZOKACbYhA81nJJoHwbbPh+a+rsPiKImBPx00IJ8cbxvlnFo5TUrACBK7gJiBNIoCs53z5clHkBsxa/7nnBn2kuq0NuMYjo5ye05+n/m1W3kHPoTwFChoxzh9vUkmLI0QZ41Q6oN/qeHZbinEA DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53375445.xn--hew.k1403; bh=NeAlEQQtZJkoQAJvB+QmC873kfXQ+w+tCnZWEzzd/h0=; b=Q2G9XU717s1TruMOYe8WeHY9v8x/kc0GaRaZUta0LBUHO/n30+sSpICVeb/vl+iX0Rg5zby5KtMAld+Qh4//qogiCR1BTAKSms16BkT1xI4Cd906vgY7kJ9tgCuSyOrgoIJ0fz2aVsXOaNen8VLs6nZRTXPppPbs6usMxQX2iCkfTj+1umBl8kCQLs5pkduBUtyg5/Cjgh7dILGC9w/KwoCdto5/DF/Zg9PvfhMuWiQ3YVL6PgDSc8pUzXHQzk3h Date: 29 Mar 2014 23:15:59 -0000 Message-ID: <20140329231559.4216.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/41yetJ90JniHof2stORgAzraBBo Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:16:25 -0000 >>> It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are reused >>> are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have any >>> plans to do an SMTP extension. >> >> Is that the right question? Or is the better question "How many WOULD >> implement it if it were standardized?" > >Given that we know people at all of the relevant organizations, I don't >think the two questions are likely to have very different answers. That wasn't very clear. Might as well ask both questions. My point is that if none of the large webmail systems are going to implement it, there's negligible point in going ahead. Yahoo says they already do the RRVS header on some of their mail. R's, John From nobody Sat Mar 29 16:23:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8FA1A07FF for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ijK2Nbw6mnv for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22c.google.com (mail-la0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BE31A06B9 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id hr13so4795757lab.31 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=drkurt.com; s=20130612; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Oqo+2mRYe+57/l+EwPKtjSa856+HDi6JY2fTkWE4qSs=; b=Qyw0EzokaCi9wCy01R5FVNOOHJ3dEMIpoNzwMDn3cQ0XQoj9Y9NEnuMKd+iZ8a30vB EWDuYTxj/yNZjm70ny7nuYxWh3SWpjJO8EFrspxTCklEenLLYzQR8jEInxqoR5KRybHZ 0Jv8y2TUC36HwX9TCWwlPYpVv0sd8uDUTlK18= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Oqo+2mRYe+57/l+EwPKtjSa856+HDi6JY2fTkWE4qSs=; b=aus5QIHb0sMqbwbavZQ4TAarkN0t/eYclEEbzcca8UaheCY0lkqEW1/+FMru7YpUp0 hEouoWI/RX99jThYNkhjCAROOediDi4pG7ocacJiUmJ8ygovFugf01pTlMw09j6/zpPb GWk5ZCz/XWN9qXx61u3Ujyz0WWumCxBdUUwxOpD2RKNvyiSJ5Ze9U94LVs+n4a3qTQ04 pMn0ezqL4tTSbIrG7nO1DHv+Uc9DaTCMktaGqqc9QK7PKFKzuz7oOq9pJRaiCpp7w2us rQbplSj0haDA4QWPje+B2yuqYGhgVDEu5dpdexK4gw0obXm75+0Usd+3e9hJGFaqDurt 4SOw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm+vq93pe2fhnbI7gnNGW3RKR6Y1cYXw5tob/EtagZHcixb3KKZJOcO6hBOKrzBFEHyItOM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.52.104 with SMTP id s8mr11321790lbo.7.1396135393456; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kurta@drkurt.com Received: by 10.114.67.65 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140329231559.4216.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20140329231559.4216.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:23:13 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: yd3MU2CC4U9lAfSSY5H60B83TKE Message-ID: From: Kurt Andersen To: John Levine Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3f0202f875904f5c71ac9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/8-k1JCEr0M2FrX2C1lNQj33Mopk Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:23:18 -0000 --001a11c3f0202f875904f5c71ac9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 4:15 PM, John Levine wrote: > >>> It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are > reused > >>> are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have > any > >>> plans to do an SMTP extension. > >> > >> Is that the right question? Or is the better question "How many WOULD > >> implement it if it were standardized?" > > > >Given that we know people at all of the relevant organizations, I don't > >think the two questions are likely to have very different answers. > > That wasn't very clear. Might as well ask both questions. My point > is that if none of the large webmail systems are going to implement > it, there's negligible point in going ahead. Yahoo says they already > do the RRVS header on some of their mail. > We employ the RRVS header on security-related emails from our platform. I think that the better point is not that "Yahoo [does] RRVS", but that they support it as a receiver. I've not seen any indication that they employ it when sending (though they may). --Kurt --001a11c3f0202f875904f5c71ac9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 4:15 PM, John Levine <johnl@taugh.c= om> wrote:
>>> It seems to me that the most signficant places= where mailboxes are reused
>>> are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of t= hem have any
>>> plans to do an SMTP extension.
>>
>> Is that the right question? =A0Or is the better question "How= many WOULD
>> implement it if it were standardized?"
>
>Given that we know people at all of the relevant organizations, I don&#= 39;t
>think the two questions are likely to have very different answers.

That wasn't very clear. =A0Might as well ask both questions. =A0M= y point
is that if none of the large webmail systems are going to implement
it, there's negligible point in going ahead. =A0Yahoo says they already=
do the RRVS header on some of their mail.
=A0
We employ the RRVS header on security-related emails from our platform. I= think that the better point is not that "Yahoo [does] RRVS", but= that they support it as a receiver. I've not seen any indication that = they employ it when sending (though they may).

--Kurt
--001a11c3f0202f875904f5c71ac9-- From nobody Sat Mar 29 16:39:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007011A03BA for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:39:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NMy-wjLaTwrc for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374CE1A0279 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2TNdHJ6028344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:39:21 -0700 Message-ID: <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:37:38 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/QQpW7xSxXKXqQVitE7tOvDe4vJI Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:39:30 -0000 On 3/29/2014 3:40 PM, Barry Leiba wrote: >> We've been sending mail without RRVS for 30 years, so it can't be all >> that urgent. > > Then why bother with it at all? > If you're going to have it at all, it ought to be done in a way that > has some reasonable assurance that it will be paid attention to. Barry, your line of argumentation is tailored to a perfect world. In that perfect world, everything having to do with 'handling' is restricted to the transport envelope and anything made standard is readily implemented. In the imperfect world of the deployed Internet, we often have to settle for architectural compromises. The semantics I assign to the distinction created by the two component mechanisms in the current draft is: 1. If it must not be delivered unless there is confirmation that it is the 'correct' user of the address, then of course, use the SMTP extension and reject the message if the extension fails or is not implemented along the path. 2. If it is preferable that the mail be delivered to the correct user, but not essential, then let the header field provide advisory information. These choices are embodied in the draft's Section 7.1 text, '"B" elects not to reject the message'. >> my impression that Yahoo has actually implemented the header, while >> nobody other than maybe Ned has implemented the SMTP extension. > > Maybe -- just maybe -- standardizing the extension and not the header > will be a push to change that. This is essentially coercive thinking. It presumes that the IETF somehow can dictate operational paradigm changes in the market, when the market has long-standing demonstration of resistance. That is, it reverses the well-demonstrated model, which repeatedly shows that IETF work is successful when it matches what the market wants. Instead, the thinking you are offering presumes that the IETF can tell the market what it wants. Since the market has made clear that it has high resistance to infrastructure change, playing games with standards status mostly will serve to marginalize the IETF. The current topic is a particularly weak agent of such coercion. It's not as if masses of email operators are demanding the facility. That does not mean there is no interest in it, but it does mean there is a serious limit to the costs that can be imposed for adopting it. Worse, the thinking you offer ignores the lack of incentives for intermediaries that have no concern for whether the address belongs to the 'correct' user. But there's a deeper problem in this Discuss: It seems to represent a misunderstanding of the purpose of standardization, namely declaring something to be a common mechanism to use. There is a long history of trying to worry about "communicating" the "wrong" thing and it mostly winds up blocking progress and/or looking silly. The pragmatic reality is that infrastructure mechanisms, like an SMTP extension, require massive community interest to gain adoption, and even then usually take a very long time. By contrast there is massive history showing far easier and more successful adoption of header-based mechanisms. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sat Mar 29 18:13:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98E61A0715 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H9zzZ6Itq_94 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrout3.yahoo.com (mrout3.yahoo.com [216.145.54.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C731A068D for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BF1-EX10-CAHT13.y.corp.yahoo.com (bf1-ex10-caht13.corp.bf1.yahoo.com [10.74.226.57]) by mrout3.yahoo.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/y.out) with ESMTP id s2U1D9Xq029501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=yahoo-inc.com; s=cobra; t=1396141991; bh=UoeiupsV8ddbjebUc2nmb4yha+8HKoJOWetxfoOoFnc=; h=References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To; b=rj8ctmrR9B0p7En3Om4EdcetRkoAbCNVYgQcQSqkoNIhH2AxfL6v8n/Dk+QO1SUIG WKGNhAZrFHPGkfwl0AqR0YLFtKE7nqxKnmr6x32Ut3zEJn7FWncJu9R313a/MzR3JV 2qAb68Bnbkl1kgAJxSBk28LcXfE196MEKVuxnLb4= Received: from omp1016.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (98.138.89.160) by BF1-EX10-CAHT13.y.corp.yahoo.com (10.74.209.170) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 32522 invoked by uid 1000); 30 Mar 2014 01:13:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 95812 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 2014 01:13:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo-inc.com; s=ginc1024; t=1396141988; bh=mOn6ap1SB2PfMpQitXFZud4REJNEuiTGGY+EXZ8Clrs=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=R+Avkr73X4RqgEIEnFMAajjjeBu07dI9aK8QPL9n1deX4tF/O/yTWRnrU5YjMeVluadMaWQARI/9A35qj2F9xypGn8SrMriFx8jxH2Z4TAktJ6WywmmXhJg136EHKafoIl5JoIJYNRFjS0oHAjciAGzkNw+q5zzy8X1372wiYAs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=ginc1024; d=yahoo-inc.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cWtPGoWJ0w75Hq5vPg/ze8v1iC9eu4sIQ1ezpKDSxkW/XkYi2qdAiRqhXrmebHnjro5SxAU3E537BMOHZyCwXOdKhHYVcrWUnooLr2nqURfsfM6Q4C5WcgUMF5glmOjI1anpMWkdYaXwuqhZu2KzqE85kO5xkgSEgqLQlCylWng=; X-YMail-OSG: ElGZqUcVM1lVeR8eAGoXBxVRGUGcOJbAkyJFsHw5Z7fnvi. ggHa9K799HfG92cAwqBT6VPL3QNs7nk3lPVNmKeCHeP3DruSjYjEhBFH46x7 xlVmSQ5UYMw240AO2zflq8MLCBSEWSH.DgBLh0xxkwYbQkekKAjFYZu6IzMk eHhoJN069dq4l4BZ0ZxDirX2qsxYgyPcpb9.AgAP9S1tKJgL_xMNgR1C8nus ipFFGF0sG9ZXNcXNi1xRLxfi0T_VY5bor8ra.R8Qt3d9ho1tTMgfeiMjcWy9 K6gH27EbKZOLcrVHiRjCnV0D.SjH2lFZGB3We Received: from [99.31.212.42] by web125606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:08 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001, WWFob28gc2VuZHMgaXQgb24gc29tZSBwaWVjZXMgb2YgbWFpbCBhbmQgaG9ub3JzIGl0IHdoZW4gcmVjZWl2ZWQuCgpZYWhvbyB3b3VsZCBsaWtlbHkgbm90IG1vdmUgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50IGFuIFNNVFAgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHVudGlsIGl0J3MgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgbWFpbGVyIHBhY2thZ2VzIHdlIHVzZS4KCsKgCi1iaWxsCgoKCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCldpbGxpYW0gSi4gTWlsbHMKIlBhcmFub2lkIiBNVVggWWFob28hCgoKCgoKT24gU2F0dXJkYXksIE1hcmNoIDI5LCAyMDEBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.181.645 References: <20140329231559.4216.qmail@joyce.lan> Message-ID: <1396141988.51954.YahooMailNeo@web125606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:13:08 -0700 From: Bill Mills To: John Levine , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <20140329231559.4216.qmail@joyce.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="607277540-781480623-1396141988=:51954" X-Milter-Version: master.31+4-gbc07cd5+ X-CLX-ID: 141990001 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ASmldVh-CIu1y1GNjOk0zrrghWY Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bill Mills List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 01:13:27 -0000 --607277540-781480623-1396141988=:51954 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yahoo sends it on some pieces of mail and honors it when received.=0A=0AYah= oo would likely not move to implement an SMTP mechanism until it's part of = the mailer packages we use.=0A=0A=A0=0A-bill=0A=0A=0A=0A-------------------= -------------=0AWilliam J. Mills=0A"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AO= n Saturday, March 29, 2014 4:16 PM, John Levine wrote:=0A= =0A>>> It seems to me that the most signficant places where mailboxes are = reused=0A>>> are large public mail systems, so how about asking if any of t= hem have any=0A>>> plans to do an SMTP extension.=0A>>=0A>> Is that the rig= ht question?=A0 Or is the better question "How many WOULD=0A>> implement it= if it were standardized?"=0A>=0A>Given that we know people at all of the r= elevant organizations, I don't =0A>think the two questions are likely to ha= ve very different answers.=0A=0AThat wasn't very clear.=A0 Might as well as= k both questions.=A0 My point=0Ais that if none of the large webmail system= s are going to implement=0Ait, there's negligible point in going ahead.=A0 = Yahoo says they already=0Ado the RRVS header on some of their mail.=0A=0AR'= s,=0A=0AJohn=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Aapps-di= scuss mailing list=0Aapps-discuss@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/apps-discuss --607277540-781480623-1396141988=:51954 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yahoo sen= ds it on some pieces of mail and honors it when received.

Yahoo woul= d likely not move to implement an SMTP mechanism until it's part of the mai= ler packages we use.
 
-bill


-----------= ---------------------
William J. Mills
"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo!


=
On Saturday, March 29,= 2014 4:16 PM, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> It seems to me that the most signfican= t places where mailboxes are reused
>>> are larg= e public mail systems, so how about asking if any of them have any
>>> plans to do an SMTP extension.
>= ;>
>> Is that the right question?  Or is th= e better question "How many WOULD
>> implement it i= f it were standardized?"
>
>Given= that we know people at all of the relevant organizations, I don't
>think the two questions are likely to have very different an= swers.

That wasn't very clear.  M= ight as well ask both questions.  My point
is that i= f none of the large webmail systems are going to implement
it, there's negligible point in going ahead.  Yahoo says they already
do the RRVS header on some of their mail.

R's,

John

___________________________= ____________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss<= /a>


--607277540-781480623-1396141988=:51954-- From nobody Sat Mar 29 20:30:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FDA1A073F for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 20:30:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIzo4hxtkV1o for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 20:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A7D1A040F for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 83886 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 03:30:31 -0000 Received: from miucha.iecc.com (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 30 Mar 2014 03:30:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53378fd7.xn--hew.k1403; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=2/OKB5J5af9iM55CPntZhvdVsxP7nw1RhfoA/s9g/us=; b=bXxq4Bz6nD7sqgAhLmWOr/lVJ+Awia61s9BrxvAXshscxkSAL9zUpA7dTdoJBDCXV6o63A7fI4zpg35vq44C0KQIuM9jvePy1X8qPmQ3zPzlS2HEAWMf6Nl5hUWXdtwCFwY46C2nlhAIq+PuyZqjuodlf2ZckZ0/gxGq+siWgW7tm52aGXWMvRpy5KZqCNriE5LEDV9DIGUqEiEuAQg2Vlmj6QRklx7KICaNZ7yrIPBzRMpEiIBcjxrnBOKud4Xz DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=53378fd7.xn--hew.k1403; bh=2/OKB5J5af9iM55CPntZhvdVsxP7nw1RhfoA/s9g/us=; b=E8jXkD0zqJd5cLznGhLV+NoZvCAW1XbdapAaOxVun1fmoURhHCgAShcO7fgDeDSOojNJ03xK2PeEdBdIKNb6jKUOzjnn1sz6sVkMm46XyVzzKFJw3+gjHS9L1doQoT9UNKf8S3YyIexp+EiZSZBBiPQItmFlqOK9ZqY1Kr9wy3bClaOAlCMJc78q0V0TvRy9HjBE7HsV6FsfoDuMwMswmWAYAdw21ZhRTacHriwF7yC3FQVqg+kDvll6FEf0bVUL Date: 30 Mar 2014 03:30:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: apps-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/QKsX94nrRz2FvEq8WYbgU6breJo Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 03:30:38 -0000 > 1. If it must not be delivered unless there is confirmation that >it is the 'correct' user of the address, then of course, use the SMTP >extension and reject the message if the extension fails or is not >implemented along the path. This still makes unwarranted assumptions about mail receivers. If I were to implement an RRVS SMTP extension (unlikely even though my MTA supports SMTP extension plugins), I would continue to accept all the mail sent to my spamtraps regardless of what the RRVS said. So sue me. R's, John From nobody Sat Mar 29 21:13:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA8F1A0750 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ot_dToAQWfKc for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E3A1A0431 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2U4DXrX031277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:37 -0700 Message-ID: <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:11:56 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Levine , apps-discuss@ietf.org References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/iKb_u8SuJg3TSet-hOLfvzcZFFs Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 04:13:42 -0000 On 3/29/2014 8:30 PM, John Levine wrote: > This still makes unwarranted assumptions about mail receivers. > > If I were to implement an RRVS SMTP extension (unlikely even though my > MTA supports SMTP extension plugins), I would continue to accept all > the mail sent to my spamtraps regardless of what the RRVS said. So > sue me. If your receiver purported to conform to the extension and then violated its semantics, well, of course, there's no way to stop that. But that outcome does not demonstrate my making an unwarranted assumption. It demonstrates a protocol violation. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sat Mar 29 21:43:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6681A075F for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3X7LOPaFPsv for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64B01A0757 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 90970 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 04:43:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=16359.5337a0f5.k1403; bh=l3VThjWMmqNxWo4ksfahHIixurYHC5kn7k5iZ82UZVg=; b=BlUzfbELx/AnKdhQ9lHZCtVkFOeIAoOGIwvq6d73lG1PFOZgpGZVMaC/Zisw5QOnl7MJ4zsHbR/SBd9eVf/oIfXkSDIeO9x54ban+4ZTAGAzFLLn/k4+z63LyxXG0xgSJATMMFhgbBVIvIqW8Z0kHWWREI6dTxLwrHimFZhAnrwmg/9ZOLSrfiRu1soVM9qAdAvqYfpA2sP+GQbzJSguwQm1G17Ioe8s/MW2p6QqcM9JY4fRyiYAo9DCkhO9q/N1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=16359.5337a0f5.k1403; bh=l3VThjWMmqNxWo4ksfahHIixurYHC5kn7k5iZ82UZVg=; b=kV5RtdxwmelqnPdfjievhMHwo3QlHt7RRHDxvv3WZqodgFIfc2er2jzUdsmxiO17128s4qOFpVOq9NAm3oecD7BwZtgRAI6rQdOVJU/ms6kiCv8xdHFZh2ae6xYeFxnLXWTW1h//44GXuiGaqweqBhOeQoeCYEP2UfAIjddCNsgUb4Uzu0mGalb7OGujqeBPPqwyg3KXLpqQoa85Hz+qjD6dokIk5XUGPskwyIM/kyV56VFytLRRx0E1jNVPJ9j5 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 04:43:33 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 00:43:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/TadNGvbR-uz_PVwD1o5w4Q-N4zo Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 04:43:38 -0000 > But that outcome does not demonstrate my making an unwarranted assumption. > It demonstrates a protocol violation. The unwarranted assumption is that receivers will follow the protocol. They will when they feel it's in their interest to do so, they won't when they won't. This shouldn't come as a big surprise to anyone. My point is that since RRVS can never be more than a non-binding hint to the receiver, there's little point to building a lot of complex mechanism around it. Despite its theoretical advantages, It's hard for me to imagine a realistic scenario in which the SMTP extension would work much better than the header. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. From nobody Sun Mar 30 00:22:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BAB1A0829 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 00:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fVZwTOoj85ZP for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 00:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5461A029A for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 00:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.55] (unknown [118.209.108.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A41E5509B5; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 03:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:21:57 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> To: Dave Thaler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/TuuEjhaAXt0r7kAC2auXl9d8Azc Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 07:22:10 -0000 Responses inline. On 29 Mar 2014, at 12:13 pm, Dave Thaler wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote:=20 >> * Introduction - "discourage use of the same scheme name for = different >> purposes." This is a bit ambiguous; e.g., I use http:// for the = purposes of >> checking the weather and my bank balance, and that's OK. Suggest: >> "discourage handling of a scheme by in conflicting ways." >=20 > Existing text is straight from RFC 4395. How about > "discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms" > ? (I couldn't think of a better word than mechanisms.) >=20 > Both HTTP purposes you mention use the same mechanism (the HTTP > protocol) but I don't want to use protocol since a scheme name doesn't > require the existence of a protocol. WFM. That last point might be worth making explicit -- e.g., "Discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms (often, = but not always, protocols)." >> * Introduction (and throughout) - there are a number of lowercase = "should" and >> "may"s in the document; some people might complain. >=20 > These are all straight from RFC 4395. A couple are trivial to = replace with other words. > Otherwise, if I think it's unambiguous already, I'll leave it to see = if anyone > actually complains. OK. /me waits for Julian... >> * Demonstratable... - s/demonstratable/demonstrable/ >=20 > Done in my local copy (previously straight from RFC 4395). >=20 >> * Demonstratable - "...some parts of URI processing may be scheme- >> dependent." I think this needs to be stronger; at least "...are often = scheme- >> dependent." >=20 > Agreed and accepted. >=20 >> * CREF1 - LGTM. >=20 > Thanks, removing CREF1. >=20 >=20 >> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for use = with relative >> URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" character, which is = used for >> hierarchical delimiters, and the complete path segments "." and ".." = (dot- >> segments). If they avoid use of "/", how do you tell what delimits = dot-segments >> from other stuff? >=20 > This is straight from RFC 4395. It says they SHOULD avoid both "/" = and dot-segments. > So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits = them from other stuff. Right. I just find it odd that we SHOULD-prohibit the string ".." in a = URI scheme where it can't be mistaken for a relative reference (because = there are no "/").=20 I.e., avoiding one of them, not both, is sufficient to prevent being = mistaken for a relative reference, so why are we overly restrictive = here? > * Syntactic Compatibility - "...the first part of a URI is not an = artistic indicator..." >> I'd drop "artistic". >=20 > Straight from RFC 4395, but accepted. >=20 >> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that do not contain a conformant >> hierarchical structure in their SHOULD NOT use = double >> slashes following the string." Why is this not a MUST NOT? >=20 > The authors of RFC 4395 which had this statement, should answer = that... > Tony, Ted, or Larry? I suspect the answer is because it doesn't seem = to cause > any interoperability issues if it's violated, and indeed some = heuristics for > detecting URIs in plaintext might actually work better if it's = violated. >=20 >> * Well-Defined - "While URIs may or may not be defined as locators in = practice, >> a scheme definition itself MUST be clear..." Does this really = deserve to be a >> MUST? When advice is given about what to document elsewhere in the = spec, it >> always seems to be a SHOULD. >=20 > Not sure if the authors of RFC 4395 have an answer but my view is... > I don't know how you can call a scheme definition a "scheme = definition" if it > does not actually define whether it's a locator or not. >=20 > Also the "Clear Security Considerations" section (same as in RFC 4395) = also has a > MUST so this isn't the only such occurrence. OK. >> * Well-Defined - "In particular, the mapping SHOULD describe the = mechanisms >> for encoding binary or character strings within valid character = sequences in a >> URI." I feel like this ought to be more clearly qualified to cases = where such >> content is valid for the application; some might read this as = requiring a >> mapping for binary in all schemes. >=20 > Since I think it's already clearer in section 3.6, so how about = this... >=20 > OLD: > In particular, the mapping SHOULD > describe the mechanisms for encoding binary or character strings > within valid character sequences in a URI (see Section 3.6 for > guidelines). >=20 > NEW: > See Section 3.6 for guidelines for encoding binary or character = strings > within valid character sequences in a URI. WFM. >> * Definition of Operations - HTTP calls them "methods", and this = should be >> noted here to avoid confusing people (we saw it recently). >=20 > OLD: > A model for this is HTTP; an HTTP resource can be operated on by = GET, > POST, PUT, and a number of other operations available through the > HTTP protocol. >=20 > NEW: > A model for this is HTTP methods; an HTTP resource can be operated = on by GET, > POST, PUT, and a number of other methods available through the > HTTP protocol. Thanks. >> * Definition of Operations - I'd like to see us encourage (but = probably not >> require) schemes to define a *default* operation for locators; the = AWWW calls >> this "dereferencing" = and it >> would be nice to align the worldviews between the W3C and IETF here. = It would >> also be good if we encouraged such default methods to be "safe" -- = that is, not >> having surprising or undesired side effects, from the client's = standpoint. >=20 > Agreed, though I'm not sure what to say about "safe" (text suggestions = welcome). >=20 > Added this sentence: > Scheme definitions SHOULD define a "default" operation for when a = URI is > invoked (or "dereferenced") by an application. See: = > * Scheme Name Considerations - There's a shift in use of language in = this >> section in the two paragraphs starting with "Avoid..." -- it's = direct, first-person >> advice, whereas the rest of the spec is more third-person. >=20 > Yep. This was in RFC 4395 but will change for consistency. Thanks. >> * Scheme Name Considerations - I'm very much against "private" / >> organisationally scoped registrations -- is the idea that someone can = then make >> up new URI schemes without registering them? This seems counter to = the >> purposes of having URIs, as per the AWWW. >=20 > Yes I believe that was the idea, and I don't believe it's counter to = the purposes of > having URIs. Indeed we've learned by observation of reality that = people will > do that regardless of what we say. So I think the idea was to allow = self-generated > unregistered ones, based on your domain name, so if they leak then at = least > you can be tracked down and interrogated :) I understand. Still against it; we should give the people who want to = use schemes badly a better mechanism, not accommodate the misuse. >> * CREF2 - The HTML5 folks have spec'd (not clear if they've = implemented) >> web+, so we should at least talk about it. To me, the problem is that = if >> somebody comes along and does something like email+, which one wins = -- i.e. >> do I now have to handle both email+web+http:// and web+email+http:// = as >> equivalent? Bleurgh. >=20 > This is part of ticket #16 which the WG discussed at IETF. > The rough consensus in the room was not to allow this, hence removed = cref2 > and closed the ticket. Understood. >> * CREF3 - As per above, I think that allowing domain-based URI = schemes is a >> Bad Idea. What's the use case? >=20 > Was already allowed in RFC 4395. See response above. > I don't want to disallow existing things that are already legal unless = there's strong > consensus to do so, since that won't cause people to use unregistered = schemes, > removing that guidance would just cause people to use unregistered = schemes > that you can't track down to someone, which is IMO a worse state. Do we have any evidence that people are using domain-based URI schemes? >> * Guidelines for Provisional URI Scheme Registration - The first = paragraph >> indicates that provisional is for "private" schemes. I think we need = to have a >> discussion about that in the WG (perhaps in a separate thread), = because AFAICT >> provisional is NOT being used that way; rather, it's being used to = reserve >> namespace for parties that can't be bothered doing full registration. = That's not >> to say that there's something wrong with that; as the draft points = out, one >> motivation is to make registration easier; it's just that we should = be honest >> about why we have provisional - I'd rather not encourage private URI = use at all >> (but keep provisional). >=20 > No, it doesn't indicate the provisional is for "private" schemes. It = (same as > RFC 4395) says it's for schemes that are NOT private. Here's the = text: >=20 > Provisional registration can be used for schemes that are not part = of > any standard, but that are intended for use (or observed to be in > use) outside a private environment within a single organization. >=20 > The key word is "outside" a private environment. It sounds like you = read it > (as "inside") opposite to how it was intended. I changed "outside" to > "that is not limited to" in the hopes that's clearer. OK. >> * Registration Procedures - I'd be much more comfortable if there = were >> references in this section to the previous requirements; people often = just skip to >> this section in this kind of RFC, oblivious to the carefully prepared = requirements >> and arguments above. In an ideal world, I'd restructure the draft so = that the >> whole thing read like a flow chart, but I'm not going to ask the WG = to do that :) >=20 > I can't tell if you're suggesting something actionable above or not. > If so, can you give an example of what you'd like to see? """ 3. If the registration request is for a Permanent registration: 1. Review the requirements for Permanent Scheme Definitions in = Section 3. 2. ... """ Actually, Section 3 should probably be entitled "Requirements for ..." = not "Guidelines for..." since its second. sentence says they're = REQUIRED. A corresponding step for non-Permanent registrations would also be good. >> * Registration Procedures - "Unless Expert Review has explicitly = rejected the >> registration request within two weeks, IANA should automatically add = the >> registration to the registry as 'provisional." I'm a bit = uncomfortable with this; if >> the Experts aren't on the ball, get sick, go on holiday, etc., we can = end up with >> some surprising results. Can we just raise an exception to the ADs or >> something? >=20 > The above sentence will go away in the next rev since there was = general support > for changing Provisional to FCFS. OK. Thanks, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Mar 30 08:05:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04ABF1A063E for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 044aX5IWgA5B for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22b.google.com (mail-qc0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131841A058E for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c9so7878726qcz.2 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=XiEw8I3Q8vOYg77I4MhRhPRlOleyNge7qizORxpyVFg=; b=b70bcHQlONo5Ly6dO4R8FwlW96Q4WtUtdpFa5CZ56VNW70nuDsna2osL9mz87ZdE6v dVbxLE2Y+XhaMzBEGCFEa+G1FwByM3exTKurRxLbgQA0WiJ8yXkvTYdrQ9sIbmjeX9ax uMBebj3a1aAXP8D06FEQUn5r7VnLMQppqMYIuxtYpt0jBFK2Lt32ozk2Lh0qHUpig/E+ KhVTkHkPGktAVqsAgrb5xTk8AzDFB2V+J/ctsjBA3Z6Zw7+ZuRFZ2GvMToUhW+LVbU42 E6PfhXZd4fE8d03EVf/K/2sclLdD56mvDhYsbYdwpaYWwasA/0dI9jc3nJMXNU1G9xI6 RWCA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.112.5 with SMTP id u5mr21899295qcp.3.1396191917709; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.136.134 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:05:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:05:17 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: S22ZFRzGa967sF9fQtHaMdqC5J0 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/jO54z8c2wHXzjTWzshSK1w65vL8 Cc: Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:05:24 -0000 > The semantics I assign to the distinction created by the two component > mechanisms in the current draft is: > > 1. If it must not be delivered unless there is confirmation that it is > the 'correct' user of the address, then of course, use the SMTP extension > and reject the message if the extension fails or is not implemented along > the path. > > 2. If it is preferable that the mail be delivered to the correct user, > but not essential, then let the header field provide advisory information. The problem is that an MTA in the middle of things is allowed to downgrade the SMTP extension to the header field, without consulting the sender. That breaks (1). >> Maybe -- just maybe -- standardizing the extension and not the header >> will be a push to change that. > > This is essentially coercive thinking. It presumes that the IETF somehow > can dictate operational paradigm changes You spin it as coercion, but I look at it as influence, which is not the same thing. Apart from that: We don't standardize everything that's out there. We standardize the things that we think are the right, interoperable ways to do things. Sometimes we also document, as Informational, other ways that we don't recommend as standards. This is an idea case for this. One mechanism is easy to deploy, so it's out there in use because folks could start experimenting with it without a documented standard. But it doesn't interoperate properly and it has serious issues with respect to the use cases we're saying we want to support. The other mechanism isn't practical to deploy until there's a documented standard that everyone can start updating their SMTP implementations to, and it will take a while to deploy once that happens. But it's a more robust, solid mechanism that addresses the use cases better. In many other situations we would make the better mechanism be our Standards Track solution, and we'd document the other as Informational (Experimental probably isn't right for this one; in the mt-priority situation we didn't already have deployment). That doesn't say anyone is "bad" for implementing the Informational mechanism. It might or might not result in deployment of the Standards Track one. But it standardizes what we consider to the the ight technology for the job, while documenting the other one for those who need it. We've done this many times and will continue to do so. Why is this not an appropriate time to do it? > It seems to represent a misunderstanding of the purpose of > standardization, namely declaring something to be a common > mechanism to use. I would say that you're misunderstanding the purpose of standardization. It's not to declare as a standard anything that's deployed, even widely deployed. It's to declare as a standard a recommended, interoperable, robust solution... not just any solution. The IETF isn't here to look at what people are doing, and to say, "Hey, let's write that one down." We're here to develop properly engineered standards. Barry From nobody Sun Mar 30 08:20:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B67B1A063E for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oKSZD7lpmaVH for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com (mail-qc0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6849A1A034C for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id i8so8029712qcq.31 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1WZ796z5UzVogfVsIsbQXUoxnARgkhRXNb2nDF5As/8=; b=QopfKnEEUtli49i9GIEBbIQdJm4wlG5WeMzqVQ6+x+lCAzhHRDnGgvfSpiPdd0h/Up zuyBCVZessEU26qk71yRABT6vhW80HnlJjMqLwaxvGAdTnD8L70rxBj0AOCI1goeCa87 XZdgV8WNmaspsPTCmGCStAD2w5h9svV+8ifWtQ+N57yI928OcUovHDu3WFrnwthApGbP 5U3IwOr6RqPEtBdJQog5RXG7O6bidwdab7M55snXNU0lBjwODpm2jrf3puDesRsQxMn/ k/UtHNvYyrBQ8TRND0xVgLFrctXEF2QMZgeZRIhBKYpsPO79W9XLRN1vKG4jH7RnUPKN XVyw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.128.138 with SMTP id k10mr2081586qas.68.1396192808417; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.94.165 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:20:08 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: rWSX3aIzsp_BXPC4pAMGKbrHt4M Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: John R Levine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/lF0iSPb3LXF4EgrUToksXq_5OcE Cc: Dave Crocker , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:20:13 -0000 > My point is that since RRVS can never be more than a non-binding hint to the > receiver, there's little point to building a lot of complex mechanism around > it. Despite its theoretical advantages, It's hard for me to imagine a > realistic scenario in which the SMTP extension would work much better than > the header. The realistic scenario is one in which the sender can know whether the receiving system understands the extension. Senders have to assume that extensions will be implemented properly, and, of course, we know that there may be faulty or even malicious implementations. That aside, there's a big difference between getting a message bounced because the extension isn't supported... and having the senders request silently and undetectably ignored because it isn't. Barry From nobody Sun Mar 30 08:56:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DA51A0891 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKN5FR88Kzk9 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F4E1A088E for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 66571 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 15:56:50 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=10408.53383ec2.k1403; bh=6WkeOU0aaXO+TY0KDpK9KGCGLsW4huqMNldiJ/JYEKU=; b=rdKzZMRulLGmdT3Rlj3oB03RVKAiYd59A04BTcjkAxu+9oHYVhFRTJeybkW7rAYfB+nb6YJrqZooc040dbFJ9mztzL/FRKWBZK12YCmmrWOEQXEuiHOiJbCYfMnigPojITPZhRtY/zXn+hpb/b+lLTe29ZihyUy2rrwWUe/e38rYdEx4R2b4fDpRI+OXiu7cG1YFHkwG6jeTzL+cwqgVJCn0jVEX2MEEKQeIMsc38x2z5HfFA+NhRDaHCXEcBD// DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=10408.53383ec2.k1403; bh=6WkeOU0aaXO+TY0KDpK9KGCGLsW4huqMNldiJ/JYEKU=; b=VNEILw5oefJeQJkHfMZgleIlwjZwIce59BSQap7niKWPy9yrn7yrzn5FzUtq/wEvQ3i4vg+J4DUVgndmEZCkgS5SQgdS6qteqoDMDSGMAOTonCZTWuum6jYsPjgki3tU+21YKfU8c1OnePD4M21mlh3aUg/4G8K7CTtBLS4YXWoi6cnGtOG3kIyBOX0KSA1QI4NJC7d5bevbGkYYPZeKRimmUW8JSZ5gEJ4QlM0PP2EpF9br/QoH/zq2+WIit1iz Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 15:56:50 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 11:56:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Barry Leiba" In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ErQUKimfh0QRd2hzxIP3jZ9CxBk Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:56:56 -0000 On Sun, 30 Mar 2014, Barry Leiba wrote: >> Despite its theoretical advantages, It's hard for me to imagine a >> realistic scenario in which the SMTP extension would work much better >> than the header. > The realistic scenario is one in which the sender can know whether the > receiving system understands the extension. ... I suppose, but it still seems far fetched. If the receiving system doesn't support the SMTP extension, there is some chance that the message will go to the wrong person due to mailbox reuse. If it does implement the extension, there is some other chance it'll go to the wrong person, through malice (my scenario) or bugs of various sorts. This strikes me as the public works department installing a bright new lamp post, and we drunks wandering toward it to look for something but we're not quite sure what. If you really care that a message only goes to the correct recipient, you use S/MIME or PGP to encrypt it to the recipient's key. So we have the niche here of mail that is sensitive enough that it should go to the right person, yet sufficiently unsensitive that it's not worth encrypting. It still doesn't seem like a large enough niche to merit a lot of mechanism. R's, John From nobody Sun Mar 30 09:07:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8BA1A0891 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:07:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQhXbIpZiz14 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [80.244.248.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA51B1A088E for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A87FA00E3; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:07:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1396195634-24181-24181/11/14; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:07:14 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:07:13 +0200 User-Agent: Trojita/v0.3.96-176-g713fcbb; Qt/4.8.4; X11; Linux; Ubuntu 13.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <52941314-a9f7-4b81-a290-abcc0780c4c4@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_7qcxngWOjYb109XTTqHjLt8J1U Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:07:20 -0000 It feels like one of those web things: "The location of the pubsubhubbub hub is specified using the Thinga-Monga HTTP Response field, or in the Wanga-Wanga XML element, or in..." I forget the third alternative. Reading it made me quite happy SMTP servers are always on TCP port 25. There is much good about making up one's mind. Arnt From nobody Sun Mar 30 09:14:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7211A0891 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:14:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mg8PCfg_l5co for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADAF1A065C for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2UGEBLg024326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: <53384270.5030802@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:12:32 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John R Levine References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/p57zcBk0FbYEDfOp-Gd1-LY3VR8 Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:14:19 -0000 On 3/29/2014 9:43 PM, John R Levine wrote: > The unwarranted assumption is that receivers will follow the protocol. All protocol specifications suffer that assumption. It's the distinction between technical specifications and enforceable laws. IETF standards do not have the leverage of the state. So it's good not to confuse the meaning of normative language with legal language. The confusion about specification meta-language semantics is a continuing point of distraction. Simply put, either one is operating by the rules of the specification or one isn't. If one isn't, then they are on their own. Perhaps ironically to your comment, I've been tending to refer to this issue by borrowing a perspective from contract law, calling this The Four Walls of Protocol Authority: A specification constructs a space for its application. The specification is the authority within the walls. Step outside the four walls, and the specification is essentially irrelevant. So while true, your observation adds nothing to the substance of the current thread. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Mar 30 09:25:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550061A0895 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sjBwcqAizORI for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x231.google.com (mail-qa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF421A065C for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id j7so7083739qaq.36 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=o+e0P7DmCcyf9+3gxyLl7XhP9+U8Ysv8MlONe4BC5Ws=; b=YiLKcuB3xsfvMplbp4sbuiMu0/cxbnYSNqgmqOm0qS3KXDAkoBeoePbEao5QTFruf1 Q27z5Eh1Rfu4peRkk9mZnz0w27v9ZOyrEaSXecUP0HKpPQBCR4ryJSFlwEaDFZ4TbXm6 2yt3qXP8EXmEKI2I9ZYretdtZhaUqQF1x2Y7HEHXTFiPbsAwfN6NeotIUpyzxJ6DlB8p qc5LTwWxOYIC58Sv7izA2wInpNvMON8gF0xncbjg/mWtqTtraxrZDr5TgFWY03bxBVJi Luq+2lLJZygLcN7qcf0W+KSIjDr/mljikWOF7LF6q3NzZeB1HMdFkxttxsZ1anvRIYcs XLGw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.103.197 with SMTP id l5mr1912749qao.69.1396196704249; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.136.134 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:25:04 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: buAaXb5eujwuBFIPcQZRqLjyYUE Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: John R Levine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/eeJbR4WE3VqR8jwMzDRPH8H6EQU Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:25:08 -0000 > If you really care that a message only goes to the correct > recipient, you use S/MIME or PGP to encrypt it to the recipient's key. So > we have the niche here of mail that is sensitive enough that it should go to > the right person, yet sufficiently unsensitive that it's not worth > encrypting. That's a very good point. It's a pity that S/MIME isn't really deployable at the scale we'd want for this, but I think you're right that it's the Truly Proper solution to the use cases we have here. Thanks for raising that point. Barry From nobody Sun Mar 30 09:29:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320EC1A089A for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yxs_C6uIEilY for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CED1A0896 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2UGTOCP024509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:27 -0700 Message-ID: <53384601.80207@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:27:45 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba , John R Levine References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/GA_epjvTJoSYs9LBjb0WFKReTTs Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:29:37 -0000 On 3/30/2014 9:25 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >> If you really care that a message only goes to the correct >> recipient, you use S/MIME or PGP to encrypt it to the recipient's key. So >> we have the niche here of mail that is sensitive enough that it should go to >> the right person, yet sufficiently unsensitive that it's not worth >> encrypting. > > That's a very good point. It's a good theoretical point, but not a practical one, for the reason you note: neither encryption mechanism has scaled. Therefore the thought of relying on either of them isn't useful. It might be an added incentive for pursuing an encryption mechanism that does scale, but one phrases such things as desirable goals rather than usable alternatives. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Mar 30 10:03:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD8B1A0735 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RsyWHXy51ZE0 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0874D1A06FE for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 75452 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 17:03:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=126bb.53384e61.k1403; bh=wC6PNCjDXdwV9Q3lvlOks134GpAHHu05EnggKhvW2A0=; b=XhdW4b556jrDuc/bSUcJj3zIvhKzAbNTKVqR+UKFA8z4K8AS8VVvJ0YcGg7pK8+32teagNLVYq1SY/nrBZlLmgR1y3qpCueMGWkyOxkQTksd0hvPS0ZfNAJa+WyDE0sdfRStMQDn9VKpKPcqxOEAFtMnBj7Hf4GlWH4inaYD1N7D/PQd4w1d3HXEO0TlCHMmUUgf0+GCFh2W+HcAVtND3d8pxqpE3VROOU38IQOKIksKP5fNgwZ6PU6HE9VYCuTI DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=126bb.53384e61.k1403; bh=wC6PNCjDXdwV9Q3lvlOks134GpAHHu05EnggKhvW2A0=; b=ttRD09If9esK8oBj1NCNXPWyUcfrrb9cZyCtTT567VLmxktIdI8CEJELR62D81Rt3iD+TpRHJQbTaIJXC0SJKeSeOoV4aXQ9g0PN/d81IWIdYKd9g/oN601pauEW5TmtyqL8xNZMxYZrxnXdDvHxC2sBCEcmRlUj2vXOltRTrhtuTUXA4lTiUHNeYa/SVn5ubehZc0f5IBHlOka8purnmg50oMifKcAXT5CrnrUs5EaYTCKiMonePd/EQp2Nu3nw Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 17:03:29 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 13:03:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <53384601.80207@dcrocker.net> References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53384601.80207@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/LzDLzrnUFQg35lke-TaBs3tk0qM Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:03:34 -0000 > It might be an added incentive for pursuing an encryption mechanism that does > scale, but one phrases such things as desirable goals rather than usable > alternatives. The obvious one is self-signed S/MIME keys. In case it wasn't clear, I think that RRVS is a reasonable idea, but it's not a security mechanism, it's just a hint. Yes, the header can leak info about signup dates, but since it's likely to be attached to someone else's bank statement, it's not worth a lot of work to fix. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. From nobody Sun Mar 30 10:24:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A8E1A08AC for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhV7Vd-vhwDj for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5437D1A06D9 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P61UHYVR80003OSH@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:19:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1396199980; bh=anhh3Tw8KDKtlR2jgpJQSJ6+lQtDAwsyXcPmLDeiciA=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=pqpx4xh80I+8Ubq3sEDgQDp/Yixv+oAVknLgtKADyxkwPGXihtuLJC71Qe33oG1nM obkfQkDtUMF0Us6D6QiGECrjEN7+37SIadG9d6JU2Ds27s5pdClDzdL8RX8m2YP3Jv Qha7JEQVHMe6DtzVvfS0GkgZyj7Mb2Wyf6y7gBFA= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; Format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P5NOFJJ0Y800004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01P61UHXSQY400004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:37:38 -0700" <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> To: Dave Crocker Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/-H-oWnkjN6obm2xaRVLqZRqMIok Cc: Barry Leiba , Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:24:48 -0000 Dave Crocker wrote: ... > >> my impression that Yahoo has actually implemented the header, while > >> nobody other than maybe Ned has implemented the SMTP extension. > > > > Maybe -- just maybe -- standardizing the extension and not the header > > will be a push to change that. > This is essentially coercive thinking. It presumes that the IETF > somehow can dictate operational paradigm changes in the market, when the > market has long-standing demonstration of resistance. Agreed. > That is, it reverses the well-demonstrated model, which repeatedly shows > that IETF work is successful when it matches what the market wants. > Instead, the thinking you are offering presumes that the IETF can tell > the market what it wants. Since the market has made clear that it has > high resistance to infrastructure change, playing games with standards > status mostly will serve to marginalize the IETF. Additionally, matching what the market wants isn't all that easy. For one thing, the IETF is (necessarily) slow, whereas market conditions can change fairly quickly. > The current topic is a particularly weak agent of such coercion. It's > not as if masses of email operators are demanding the facility. That > does not mean there is no interest in it, but it does mean there is a > serious limit to the costs that can be imposed for adopting it. The truth is we don't actually know what the market is for this mechanism, and we won't know for some time. The past accuracy of our predictions of the success of various extensions has not been good. Just as one example among many, not only was there considerable resistance to standardizing and subsequently advancing the PIPELINING extension, in part because it was an individual effort. It turned out the market didn't seem to care about where the extension came from. Funny that. > Worse, the thinking you offer ignores the lack of incentives for > intermediaries that have no concern for whether the address belongs to > the 'correct' user. Indeed. Cost/benefit assymetries are often the bane of extension deployment, and tunneling mechanisms are an effective means of working around that. That said, this assumes that the important use cases will involve intermediaries. That may or may not be true. > But there's a deeper problem in this Discuss: > It seems to represent a misunderstanding of the purpose of > standardization, namely declaring something to be a common mechanism to use. > There is a long history of trying to worry about "communicating" the > "wrong" thing and it mostly winds up blocking progress and/or looking silly. There's also a long history, aided in part by what some see as the effective elevation of the meaning of "proposed standard", to demand ever-increasing amounts of evidence of widespread interest in deployment prior to standardization. And this almost always done absent any assessment of actual standardization costs. (Putting a two page document that specifies a minor tweak to an existing protocol is a very different thing than standardizing an alternative to some existing and fairly complex protocol, yet the criteria we apply don't seem all that different to me.) > The pragmatic reality is that infrastructure mechanisms, like an SMTP > extension, require massive community interest to gain adoption, and even > then usually take a very long time. In practice it's even wierder than that. Back in the day the NOTARY extension received substantial deployment because it happened to get implemented in a couple of popular implementations right before serious security flaws were found in those implementations. Or consider mobile clients and IMAP, which is starting to look a little like a small group of monopsonies: A single large vendor can add support for some extension for whatever reason which then drives servers to support it, and in so doing significantly shape of how the protocol is used. > By contrast there is massive history showing far easier and more > successful adoption of header-based mechanisms. Quite true, but there have also been some spectcular failures in that space. Sender/X-Sender/X-X-Sender comes to mind, as does Priority/X-MTS-Priority/X-MSMail-priority. Ned From nobody Sun Mar 30 11:18:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF22A1A08BC for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kkIg9QVhc181 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CF21A08B9 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P61WE2AOJK004CN8@mauve.mrochek.com> for apps-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1396203227; bh=AWOLN1OdKT+IOlgCFPnUVlaOfZ99LYu8cZk8KS/WqeI=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=ZjRiqqdo8ph1fF6gnflpCNUtuSk5iLix/0YgOFBTICcqSKSNpKwVeRkyieMB7tGWG 42e94DsdOOsktf09CcOfVTMTi0rzHKQh7XPtbuVUnqesf790Zf/q0F6ONodeyR5/DI 4gLJKCRocLj9v25d1QKtNv/nJWEpzxiE/paHWGZY= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1; Format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01P5NOFJJ0Y800004W@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01P61WE0WSGS00004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:04:52 -0700" <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> References: <5334A6C2.70500@dcrocker.net> <53359DA4.1080000@dcrocker.net> To: Dave Crocker Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/XaFVSVSK-b3MWtS_21UxFYtT35M Cc: IETF Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:18:56 -0000 > On 3/27/2014 3:35 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > The IESG's answer to that can probably be found in the comments from the > > IESG ballots: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/ > Yeah. I keep forgetting that we now have access to such things... > I don't recall the rationale for the outcome of SMTP Priority, If memory serves, it was essentially the opposite situation: The original focus was on the SMTP extension and the header mechanism was added later. Whereas here the header mechanism came first and the extension was added later. > but the > logic in Pete's note appears to be quite broken. I would not call it broken, but it's definitely overwrought. > Pete's argument is: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-rrvs-header-field/ballot/#pete-resnick > > It seems to me that the header field is a complete hack, and has > > potential for screwing up content signatures when stripped, > > potentially unnecessarily revealing information to the end user, and > > standardizing it encourages trying to tunnel the message instead of > > bouncing it when the SMTP extension fails. > 1. Stripping is an issue for most header fields. And yes, it > certainly will break a DKIM signature... IF the signature covers such > fields and the field is stripped. The issue is general. Applied > consistently, therefore, Pete's concern means that we can never make any > new header field a standard. Alternatively, Pete fails to consider > (recommending) simply not having the signature cover the (potentially) > problematic field, or, at least, documenting the danger. SSDD. Every time one of our security mechanisms has the great good luck to get some traction, we try and build on it, usually with mixed results. (It's really hard to fault this given how poor our track record with security mechanisms is.) DKIM is no exception. It solves an important identification problem for messages traveling between ADMDs, and arguably does it in a fairly optimal fashion. But that does not make it a candidate for things like end-to-end user signatures, where issues including, but hardly limited to, header stripping invariably show up. > 2. The concern for hiding information from the recipient does not > distinguish between the intended recipient, versus an unintended > recipient who now has the mailbox address. This probably makes a > difference, but I won't pursue it here. In any event, the premise of > the stated concern is that having the information only in the envelope > somehow hides it from the recipient. Given that envelope information is > regularly transferred into header fields at delivery time, this > assumption is not valid. A separate question to ask is whether > revealing the information matters. It might also be worth noting that > most MUAs do not show more than a few, common header fields. Er, no. Copying envelope information into the header requires implementation work: You have to not only implement the extension to even have the information in hand, you'd also have to intentionally extend it to do this. There may be some implementors out there that go considerably out of their way to violate security models, but I haven't run into them. Corners get cut a lot more often than they get added. > 3. Lastly, the argument that standardization "encourages" use of > the header field misses the point behind documenting it in the first > place: to get consistent behavior. Pete's argument is that of a purist > rather than a pragmatist. Worse, it ignores the nature and purpose of > standardization, and replaces these with an aesthetic preference. Is > the header field a protocol element? (yes) Is it expected to be useful? > (presumably yes) Is there a better way to achieve its function? > (presumably no) Does it need to be used consistently? (yes) These are > the normal kinds of criteria used to determine whether something is > worthy of standardization, rather than "it's a hack". I for one don't have a problem calling it a hack. It puts it in good company with a lot of other standards, some quite important and successful. > The email operations world would certainly be a better place if > SMTP-level adoption of options were more progressive. So the desire to > rely on the SMTP option, here, makes sense. This is a delivery-related > mechanism; so it's optimal to place it in the handling/delivery > sub-system. But it's not practical, given long and UNreliable adoption > of SMTP options. I'd characterize it as more unpredictable than unreliable, but that's just a nit. Ned From nobody Sun Mar 30 13:49:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C501A08D4 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5bBkFjfE4Z5u for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000D51A0724 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x48so3917611wes.38 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=inPiApGL+hjN0TezQtexrdEE6Kv6gsjSIpbiRDGEZYI=; b=KKcuWLG4+1boIQMPA9JDRTZL2EANW2mggmkBRsnQDmJfDe0Tp8PGldcIhaKjN1Eli4 0fwyHniZLZ7/epLUqtGXxFONb9aBYkScez7PAmdHs/s+QzQscUTlH7EOQmgfSVM2q0Yn ReDIU6/wH08Tgjo2Kxoj6ksJ6knm8G6aoOJS8c3vuNsXDRk9Jncw3VCdvdwCXpQbJYOU dOISm+O71BVzSyAUDMJEwNxzPparfCPNXSkBCWe6cluYCJWWK6LGZ8xqHPvkKv9LR43h yJPif0WS5UgRy1ORE6boEtGDgDTJk61aR7uAF80FL2S/QGR4mERM+xevu2lzE1ZX1eo3 upFg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.187.237 with SMTP id fv13mr7427897wic.26.1396212563538; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:49:23 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: John R Levine Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c25a9ce17cbe04f5d9112f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/pp1KPp_Q-0oVYFcgfm1zkaB8wS4 Cc: Barry Leiba , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:49:29 -0000 --001a11c25a9ce17cbe04f5d9112f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:56 AM, John R Levine wrote: > This strikes me as the public works department installing a bright new > lamp post, and we drunks wandering toward it to look for something but > we're not quite sure what. If you really care that a message only goes to > the correct recipient, you use S/MIME or PGP to encrypt it to the > recipient's key. So we have the niche here of mail that is sensitive > enough that it should go to the right person, yet sufficiently unsensitive > that it's not worth encrypting. It still doesn't seem like a large enough > niche to merit a lot of mechanism. > > This summary seems just a little bit hyperbolic to me, and discards the fact (which I don't believe is in dispute) that S/MIME and PGP simply have not had the uptake we need in order for them to be viable options. So the messages that are the primary use case for RRVS are certainly worth encrypting, but encryption is a nonsense solution when it's unlikely that the receiver would know what to do with such a thing. -MSK --001a11c25a9ce17cbe04f5d9112f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:56 AM, John R Levine <johnl@tau= gh.com> wrote:
This strikes me as t= he public works department installing a bright new lamp post, and we drunks= wandering toward it to look for something but we're not quite sure wha= t. =A0If you really care that a message only goes to the correct recipient,= you use S/MIME or PGP to encrypt it to the recipient's key. =A0So we h= ave the niche here of mail that is sensitive enough that it should go to th= e right person, yet sufficiently unsensitive that it's not worth encryp= ting. =A0It still doesn't seem like a large enough niche to merit a lot= of mechanism.


This summary seems just a little bit hyperb= olic to me, and discards the fact (which I don't believe is in dispute)= that S/MIME and PGP simply have not had the uptake we need in order for th= em to be viable options.=A0 So the messages that are the primary use case f= or RRVS are certainly worth encrypting, but encryption is a nonsense soluti= on when it's unlikely that the receiver would know what to do with such= a thing.

-MSK
--001a11c25a9ce17cbe04f5d9112f-- From nobody Sun Mar 30 14:16:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E071A08D7 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DGarhh_nMf8O for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF011A08D4 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3738 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 21:16:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=e98.53388990.k1403; bh=CMcnBPB2X7kcEdnGLuFQvxP9bR65rXci5V8YlQHUQmo=; b=W8AhiGfP3crSWCja/VMu5ximgGnE+JFwjdk01y41RwhLIoF8kvhUaJpTHhqXnLwtdc1sLB5zwbL4FKWbbkZPrNIbyPLlG3GmGCSHe26Ht7AOTecD20gZu0xEYDNzIOQomwe72iG16hURDBzBJMHXS8deuCLoNTSTSa0j38S2c2OCZGjKSQZTLDDJo7Y401LMuIZzBfl03538GS7hnf18DDsxgwUog9Gh78R0V7VRSfuQCCeFlUbiJys1AxhMSQ5e DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=e98.53388990.k1403; bh=CMcnBPB2X7kcEdnGLuFQvxP9bR65rXci5V8YlQHUQmo=; b=x8Hkgzk2YsnxnuxNKcYvvpsGTozxyVUPWDA9rcmDHcU2steNxY3/KQPDzi9PT7WwPBjSEtIzKtw2vy3kBAeijkojFGGmWqSYCPrHwNMKVt4HwjjcRt2+OukVdCC/dGG4tBPAWjLNHErCyFrg/FI1wL7pmylTuJKV3C3kWfopvOeeQknPjqd9q5fud1m7tec+MDpJLEatZxVB3/mjaV99kwYhWO1oo//XWRZy754r21ysQ+cbZ93BeDLATJbOy64T Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 21:16:00 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 17:15:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" In-Reply-To: References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/-hpbj_7fUFytgN0tGGbKqMZ8CYM Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:16:07 -0000 > This summary seems just a little bit hyperbolic to me, and discards the > fact (which I don't believe is in dispute) that S/MIME and PGP simply have > not had the uptake we need in order for them to be viable options. So the > messages that are the primary use case for RRVS are certainly worth > encrypting, but encryption is a nonsense solution when it's unlikely that > the receiver would know what to do with such a thing. I'd turn it around the other way--if there were a lot of mail for which it were really important that it be sent to the same person who received prior mail sent to the same address (which is not the same as sending it to the "right" person), we'd have a way to do it by now. S/MIME with self-signed certificates would come pretty close. There are off the shelf list managers now that can do S/MIME mailing lists, with outgoing mail encrypted with each subscribers's key, with the keys managed largely automatically from subscription messages. (Sympa, if you were wondering.) But hardly anyone uses them. The RRVS SMTP extension feels to me like a FUSSP, where the second S is Security. Yeah, it'll avoid some misdelivery, but particularly due to downgrades on forwards and various misimplementations, it's not likely to do in practice much more than the actual implemented RRVS header will, and is more likely to provoke the usual FUSSP arguments in which its proponents demand that everyone in the world change their software to deal with its limitations. Also, so far none of the receivers that count say they'd even implement it, so why bother? R's, John From nobody Sun Mar 30 14:21:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BD61A08DA for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-VynzVBWKqt for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323661A08D9 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2ULLHeq029142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:21:20 -0700 Message-ID: <53388A6A.609@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:19:38 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed References: <20140329222654.3920.qmail@joyce.lan> <53375942.8020902@dcrocker.net> <01P61UHXSQY400004W@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01P61UHXSQY400004W@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/1LL5Xf8TFsBLCQCH_yKOpC0CqkU Cc: Barry Leiba , Apps Discuss Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:21:30 -0000 On 3/30/2014 9:51 AM, Ned Freed wrote: > Dave Crocker wrote: >> Worse, the thinking you offer ignores the lack of incentives for >> intermediaries that have no concern for whether the address belongs to >> the 'correct' user. > > Indeed. Cost/benefit assymetries are often the bane of extension > deployment, > and tunneling mechanisms are an effective means of working around that. > > That said, this assumes that the important use cases will involve > intermediaries. That may or may not be true. It counts use cases with intermediaries as being important. That's different than saying "the" important use cases. Intermediaries are not required, but they must be permitted in the scenarios. On the average, these days, there is a tendency to ignore or discount scenarios with intermediaries. What we're supposed to do, for average IETF protocols, is assume general use, over the open Internet. For email, that means supporting scenarios with independently administered intermediaries. For cases in which intermediaries are explicitly not supported, the burden of justification lies with the proposers. >> But there's a deeper problem in this Discuss: > >> It seems to represent a misunderstanding of the purpose of >> standardization, namely declaring something to be a common mechanism >> to use. > >> There is a long history of trying to worry about "communicating" the >> "wrong" thing and it mostly winds up blocking progress and/or looking >> silly. > > There's also a long history, aided in part by what some see as the > effective > elevation of the meaning of "proposed standard", to demand ever-increasing > amounts of evidence of widespread interest in deployment prior to > standardization. For Proposed Standard, I haven't seen that. Rather, I've seen a tendency to approve working groups -- and the documents they produce -- with only the narrowest of activity, where activity is our primary means for assessing community interest. That is, we often approve work that was really done by only a few people, with very little diversity in the wg review of the work. And this almost always done absent any assessment of > actual > standardization costs. +1. The IETF largely ignores cost considerations (or, rather, cost/benefit considerations) or uses highly constrained models. >> By contrast there is massive history showing far easier and more >> successful adoption of header-based mechanisms. > > Quite true, but there have also been some spectcular failures in that > space. > Sender/X-Sender/X-X-Sender comes to mind, as does > Priority/X-MTS-Priority/X-MSMail-priority. "Easier" was meant to be different from saying "certain". d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Mar 30 14:33:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696EF1A08E4 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBAtOyfit2JY for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7501A08E0 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2ULXJW0029295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:33:23 -0700 Message-ID: <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:31:40 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John R Levine , "Murray S. Kucherawy" References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/OhxHIg2Y5B8WlCmn9auOsj8mShk Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:33:28 -0000 On 3/30/2014 2:15 PM, John R Levine wrote: > S/MIME with self-signed certificates would come pretty close. John, What part of "S/MIME has a solid track record of failure as a viable choice for large-scale Internet use" is unclear? So why are you focusing on using it? Argumentation of the form "I don't like what you are proposing and think you should instead use something that we know won't work" is quite common in the IETF, but it's never constructive. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Mar 30 14:51:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA991A06C3 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:51:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A_lGVHGVQLlt for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D191A0344 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7381 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 21:51:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=1cd4.533891e8.k1403; bh=xDN+0rbuP3PKmZRAZ8q4wxV0skhQrCGk3p1w/eZJRPk=; b=gvnNBBROZCzW72s8t7JeYQT8O4SdeqeBUmJmFhiNX6DudQ2m69FS1hoDoiDI70LjKpl2yh2h+5bGQ350kcGgyMUDr8GdNuZkntDggRdSehM2UiG50BivVcX9v4Oc/GYfELRkJ9Qu98hD6E9jQEnlXOBoQpL0oY5GJ67rpgnO7so2AF/gpDVgHu538qgPktb6pjuNWjouVjVEoKQDxiW/gFAMtK9JZzWcGsCrPLZcPJU+naCEHVJY2ZUg9MeApWp1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=1cd4.533891e8.k1403; bh=xDN+0rbuP3PKmZRAZ8q4wxV0skhQrCGk3p1w/eZJRPk=; b=RD2hv0/yWwGygZiWIyvICj/fdeqDWasPtGmy2vKzx8rTCsciiPLaV+q0Oh96t8ILYksB1CW/oCL9161Fekfx+yV4ROcFW5Vea2SCIQGsweOOyEkKWMRJpiRgvdGGBLexbmHijT/S71ZF9SsVu0cQaOg6siw5pRmCi520+8uj0g4JEpsBUtutqjnTnKsTfAF/4ppqcUT4kQBLn/cZT3IxU+Ovs51fsp4ehMPKpaOzL9ZfGNQg3WUNg6xzq1wHWZ8H Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 21:51:36 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 17:51:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; BOUNDARY="3825401791-1861216681-1396216296=:4112" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/6O6r-DzR-XCM2JSUl47hHMcNcus Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:51:42 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --3825401791-1861216681-1396216296=:4112 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > What part of "S/MIME has a solid track record of failure as a viable choice > for large-scale Internet use" is unclear? None. > So why are you focusing on using it? I know it doesn't work as is. It's not obvious to me that it's unfixable, which is why I said S/MIME with self-signed certs, which fixes (or at least changes) the key distribution problem. > Argumentation of the form "I don't like what you are proposing and think you > should instead use something that we know won't work" is quite common in the > IETF, but it's never constructive. Sigh. Straw man arguments aren't much help either. 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Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DeMtZtvDTbJP for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAC81A07DC for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2UM1Bwj029546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:01:14 -0700 Message-ID: <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:59:31 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John R Levine References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/ieX1RuLiqjMveqiWWa4HV-pqcYM Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:01:19 -0000 On 3/30/2014 2:51 PM, John R Levine wrote: > > I know it doesn't work as is. It's not obvious to me that it's > unfixable, which is why I said S/MIME with self-signed certs, which > fixes (or at least changes) the key distribution problem. > >> Argumentation of the form "I don't like what you are proposing and >> think you should instead use something that we know won't work" is >> quite common in the IETF, but it's never constructive. > > Sigh. Straw man arguments aren't much help either. So it's good that that wasn't what I was doing. There is a simple, concrete proposal in front of us. You are attempting to argue against it by proposing a very general concept, not a very specific specification. Better still is that the concept is to be applied to a long-standing problematic path that likely has multiple other barriers, not just the one you are addressing. Pursuing a viable encryption effort is fine, but in practical terms it has nothing to do with the current draft. Or at least, it currently doesn't and it certainly won't have, anytime soon. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Mar 30 15:08:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542401A07DC for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:08:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bHY29T6315G2 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C311A0344 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9340 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2014 22:08:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=247b.533895c8.k1403; bh=Y5/npRHhFOTMuVpGmuLDeFsDe/uOyQ/v/5hFXBLVTVk=; b=k9hjyshfHENx0jwLEz8OTUsRQkP8jT/17rSoQT8f7NB4NeJpNICfdujEs9qbNsvUbf9QvRdRL92/7f0Zr8+rFYp63yOGR+0dIPqxTP3w/MXjUTFhxwkZyL2K9c+47Eg71xWbPZtLhPCY5EQ78KfvNnDUqPGEQ3VvBw6QLg85GHiFwLQkUAxSmhJSimGSrOkgW+XxFPSD36ALyrEH01IiZfV3DXxcZdQv5Dg/m/ToLjiBCthvFwPLvp2qp54f9yvh DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=247b.533895c8.k1403; bh=Y5/npRHhFOTMuVpGmuLDeFsDe/uOyQ/v/5hFXBLVTVk=; b=bi4YeyaJ5Y/r1xLfQe5zxBX6miOfZzpZron6j0eKf54/zl3pceG4UIJUVxhM1w12SO1SXzeBTi7VhSSroL7nnLNMr6o8/hKTcdIgrzMXdbMJf7+xDZ1H1bH5eaC3xaJsEgpGfF1/e1RLtwKnJdU5AwnGktHKwcubtp509Y3V7vR0smRhYW87BFpzK20f+eQHbr01dw9Ika4MWlFYAo3ZwZyVbWFzkK1+m0S9QPsxitc080e+7WrLVn7nrc273+CT Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 30 Mar 2014 22:08:07 -0000 Date: 30 Mar 2014 18:08:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: dcrocker@bbiw.net In-Reply-To: <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/_WRiPF_R5FwhHUFfwC3luVgAZXQ Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:08:12 -0000 > There is a simple, concrete proposal in front of us. > You are attempting to argue against it by proposing a very general > concept ... Could you do me a big favor and stop attempting to rephrase what I said? You're not very good at it. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. From nobody Sun Mar 30 15:19:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806561A0344 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HxCvOmCUeUiX for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BBD1A033D for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2UMJ2x6029757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <533897F3.5050005@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:17:23 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John R Levine References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/2DiLKE7N5Rg_06NIc5WPBFjBXp8 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:19:10 -0000 On 3/30/2014 3:08 PM, John R Levine wrote: > Could you do me a big favor and stop attempting to rephrase what I said? > You're not very good at it. Really, John. You had to resort to an ad hominem attack, rather deal with the substance of concerns being raised? Thanks. Also, I didn't "rephrase" what you said. I offered an assessment of it. The difference is fundamental. If you have been doing something different than I described, please explain how. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Mon Mar 31 06:14:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0CE1A0851 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B43DXEu_6CHR for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.163]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543B41A086B for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.207]) by relay12.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WUc2K-0006Lm-fM; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:14:00 +0100 Received: from gklyne.plus.com ([80.229.154.156] helo=conina.local) by smtp1.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WUc2K-0005CE-4Q; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:14:00 +0100 Message-ID: <53395F4C.8030603@ninebynine.org> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:27:56 +0100 From: Graham Klyne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Oxford-Username: zool0635 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/xrdZRU3KdBS0nKTh_ewK1F6Z06w Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:14:08 -0000 On 30/03/2014 08:21, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for use with relative >>> >>URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" character, which is used for >>> >>hierarchical delimiters, and the complete path segments "." and ".." (dot- >>> >>segments). If they avoid use of "/", how do you tell what delimits dot-segments >>> >>from other stuff? >> > >> >This is straight from RFC 4395. It says they SHOULD avoid both "/" and dot-segments. >> >So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits them from other stuff. > Right. I just find it odd that we SHOULD-prohibit the string ".." in a URI scheme where it can't be mistaken for a relative reference (because there are no "/"). > > I.e., avoiding one of them, not both, is sufficient to prevent being mistaken for a relative reference, so why are we overly restrictive here? > > Er, thinking about: http://example.org/. and maybe: foo://example.org/. Is just "." a relative reference or a full path? I think the question is moot unless one has a base URI like foo//example.org/bar/ where there's a '/' in the base URI path. So maybe avoiding the '/' is enough? Just checking. #g -- From nobody Mon Mar 31 10:55:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECB91A6F42 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.472 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.472 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orK1b9H_UOwj for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79451A6F15 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id cc10so3790351wib.2 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=nxX+6bXL2W/n+L9xRtY3WHyZvOGpRQ44Ucaax6ywpd0=; b=mwwYijvQJaLJkpsIGuUH5TlUwRUQJw4giEM3s7lRw8gyY0xIPeEURs7oskJquyeFTv z4Lh499yismek8NhAW+CCMl0MVBf2veqeW5gL8JphhuSO3XAbhltsMkaVWNE1ABhACov pCXiS0hUKZTEtHZ2722kO/UF5oEvlbHnww0pfzdMkpZ1asnSXpEzOP32rrjTrZ0ftRqN Fm+LT4qbAaDKIK7k9nF8KpnTtYJE4kZiahtTIpKqdCNvAFlWQyux9fbrIAGcRBPg73sK 8tKAfzKDCSUm2xkTcWClCv2g4WVTPnJepWnJI2SkNzhoeK6xL96ckqS0Pxs0h5krh4K1 rXQA== X-Received: by 10.180.219.44 with SMTP id pl12mr14237683wic.12.1396288528895; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([212.60.65.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id t18sm27972930wiv.16.2014.03.31.10.55.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:55:28 -0700 (PDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EC988522-CEF4-4B2A-9C6A-41625EC098DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11A501) From: Adetokunbo Bashorun Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:55:20 +0000 To: Brian Aberle Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/uYO8K6TovxQQOmLBAw9VDw_YJ_8 Cc: "barbara.berger@cobbcounty.org" , "stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:55:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail-EC988522-CEF4-4B2A-9C6A-41625EC098DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Brian, I am a little bit confused about this email. Is this an ietf issue or you ne= ed advice on this problem? Doesn't the court have a register where those who= come to court could sign ? And this could serve as evidence that you compli= ed. Kind regards, Adetokunbo Sent from my iPad > On 26 Mar 2014, at 22:48, Brian Aberle wrote: >=20 > To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta > To: Barbara Berger - Cobb County Solicitor General > CC: [apps-discuss] > =20 > I assume that we all know this is public information:(attached for your co= nvenience) > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21968 > =20 > I appeared for court in Cobb County Georgia where they operate very unprof= essionally. I was told that there was no case number for me and I was told t= o leave and given no court date. I was supposed to leave without having any= record of my attendance. I was out on bond. I said, "If I leave you will p= ut out a warrant for my arrest for not being here", at which time I was hand= ed a business card from Barbara Berger with the printed phone number 770 528= 8500 and hand written 770-528-8531 to be used as a reference should anyone q= uestion this. I was free to leave without scheduling any return court date.= I am not from Georgia and have no family or business there. >=20 > I am in Colorado. I got news today that by bond was revoked. Is this a m= istake? It seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent, the Gestapo will co= me to arrest you. I need a more official perspective from one of you that c= an explain why the court can do this. Should I sign a waiver of extradition= back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system?=20 > =20 > Ya'll have my contact info: RoaringCheckmate@live.com or 404.448.124= 4 so please contact me if there is some problem. Contact me if you find my= case number. Contact me to re-schedule a court date. If you need me to ap= pear somewhere I am still willing. A person never knows when they lose your= case file if the court will lose it forever of find it in a few months. It= would be more convenient for me do have court in another state where I migh= t not be a prejudged case. Id like to avoid all the guns and arrest drama i= f anyone is willing to help me make that happen. Ignoring the problem makes= you guilty. Please contact me at your earliest convenience. > =20 > I am in Colorado. Today I got news that my bond was revoked. Is this a m= istake? Don't I need to miss a court date before you do that? It seems lik= e if you cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will com= e to arrest you. I need a more official explanation from one of you. > =20 > Brian Aberle > > > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --Apple-Mail-EC988522-CEF4-4B2A-9C6A-41625EC098DF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Brian,

I= am a little bit confused about this email. Is this an ietf issue or you nee= d advice on this problem? Doesn't the court have a register where those who c= ome to court could sign ? And this could serve as evidence that you complied= .

Kind regards,
Adetokunbo

Sent fr= om my iPad

On 26 Mar 2014, at 22:48, Brian Aberle <xml4ietf@live.com> wrote:

To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta
To: Barbara Berger - Co= bb County Solicitor General
CC: [apps-discuss]
 
I assume that= we all know this is public information:(attached for your convenience)
<= a href=3D"https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21968">ht= tps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21968
 I appeared for court in Cobb County Georgia where they operate very u= nprofessionally.  I was told that there was no case number for me and I= was told to leave and given no court date.  I was supposed to lea= ve without having any record of my attendance.  I was out on bond. = ; I said, "If I leave you will put out a warrant for my arrest for not being= here", at which time I was handed a business card from Barbara Berger w= ith the printed phone number 770 528 8500 and hand written 770-528-8531= to be used as a reference should anyone question this.  I was free to l= eave without scheduling any return court date.  I am not from Geor= gia and have no family or business there.

I am in Colorado.  I g= ot news today that by bond was revoked.  Is this a mistake?  I= t seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent, the Gestapo will come to arre= st you.  I need a more official perspective from one of you that can ex= plain why the court can do this.  Should I sign a waiver of extradition= back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system? 
 
Ya'll h= ave my contact info:  Roar= ingCheckmate@live.com   or    404.448.1244 = ; so please contact me if there is some problem.  Contact me if yo= u find my case number.  Contact me to re-schedule a court date.&nb= sp; If you need me to appear somewhere I am still willing.  A person ne= ver knows when they lose your case file if the court will lose it forever of= find it in a few months.  It would be more convenient for me do have c= ourt in another state where I might not be a prejudged case.  Id like t= o avoid all the guns and arrest drama if anyone is willing to help me make t= hat happen.  Ignoring the problem makes you guilty.  Please contac= t me at your earliest convenience.
 
I am in Colorado.  Toda= y I got news that my bond was revoked.  Is this a mistake?  D= on't I need to miss a court date before you do that?  It seems like if y= ou cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will come to a= rrest you.  I need a more official explanation from one of you. 
Brian Aberle
<Arraignment Day.docx&g= t;
<Obstruction of Injus= tice - Exhibit A.docx>
&= lt;Obstruction of Injustice.docx>
_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/apps-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-EC988522-CEF4-4B2A-9C6A-41625EC098DF-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 12:04:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8471A6F55 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.801 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qohwY-nd3ZWh for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc4-s31.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc4-s31.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86C71A6F11 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W54 ([65.55.90.200]) by snt0-omc4-s31.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:03:47 -0700 X-TMN: [jaJyopxCW3EUiAAWFQncu+ztVY9WSs37] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_b566ec43-ea28-4c2f-8d13-6eaca7a9dce2_" From: Brian Aberle To: Adetokunbo Bashorun , "stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov" Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:03:47 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2014 19:03:47.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[F1F3AE30:01CF4D13] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/S2tyRDqBcXPP4NExFOiFkSaGZbY Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:03:53 -0000 --_b566ec43-ea28-4c2f-8d13-6eaca7a9dce2_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adetokunbo=2C =20 Thank you for your excellent question. =20 I sent the email to [apps-discuss] because I needed a witness. Nobody is t= rying to deny my request for help on this issue now. I didn't want to both= er the whole group with an 'update' on the issue because at the moment it s= till has not been resolved. Unjustly locking me up is an injustice to stan= dards development right now. =20 The court is not denying my attendance on the day my case was lost. The su= dden warrant for my arrest was because they later found the case=2C then sc= heduled a new court date that I never knew about. I expect that because of= the witness at IETF this situation is being handled much more professional= ly. =20 I was in a dark alley in fear of attack so I turned the lights on and all t= he cockroaches ran to hide. Yes the court should have a sign in register b= ut it does not work that way. They may have upgraded to video facial recog= nition. =20 OASIS finally came back online after almost 5 days down. About 90% of the = messages in the month of March took place immediately prior to the failure = and were on the topic of my proposal. Today the discussion is picking up a= gain. This warrant popped up the second day of the OASIS [xml-dev] outage.= It does not appear to be related. =20 Big Brother is watching. =20 Brian CC: stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov=3B barbara.berger@cobbcounty.org=3B apps-disc= uss@ietf.org From: abashorun@gmail.com Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 Date: Mon=2C 31 Mar 2014 17:55:20 +0000 To: xml4ietf@live.com Dear Brian=2C I am a little bit confused about this email. Is this an ietf issue or you n= eed advice on this problem? Doesn't the court have a register where those w= ho come to court could sign ? And this could serve as evidence that you com= plied. Kind regards=2CAdetokunbo Sent from my iPad On 26 Mar 2014=2C at 22:48=2C Brian Aberle wrote: =0A= =0A= =0A= To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta To: Barbara Berger - Cobb County Solicitor General CC: [apps-discuss] =20 I assume that we all know this is public information:(attached for your con= venience) https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D295CF%21968 =20 I appeared for court in Cobb County Georgia where they operate very unprofe= ssionally. I was told that there was no case number for me and I was told = to leave and given no court date. I was supposed to leave without having a= ny record of my attendance. I was out on bond. I said=2C "If I leave you = will put out a warrant for my arrest for not being here"=2C at which time I= was handed a business card from Barbara Berger with the printed phone numb= er 770 528 8500 and hand written 770-528-8531 to be used as a reference sho= uld anyone question this. I was free to leave without scheduling any retur= n court date. I am not from Georgia and have no family or business there. I am in Colorado. I got news today that by bond was revoked. Is this a mi= stake? It seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent=2C the Gestapo will = come to arrest you. I need a more official perspective from one of you tha= t can explain why the court can do this. Should I sign a waiver of extradi= tion back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system?=20 =20 Ya'll have my contact info: RoaringCheckmate@live.com or 404.448.1244= so please contact me if there is some problem. Contact me if you find my= case number. Contact me to re-schedule a court date. If you need me to a= ppear somewhere I am still willing. A person never knows when they lose yo= ur case file if the court will lose it forever of find it in a few months. = It would be more convenient for me do have court in another state where I = might not be a prejudged case. Id like to avoid all the guns and arrest dr= ama if anyone is willing to help me make that happen. Ignoring the problem= makes you guilty. Please contact me at your earliest convenience. =20 I am in Colorado. Today I got news that my bond was revoked. Is this a mi= stake? Don't I need to miss a court date before you do that? It seems lik= e if you cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will co= me to arrest you. I need a more official explanation from one of you. =20 Brian Aberle =0A= _______________________________________________ apps-discuss mailing list apps-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss = --_b566ec43-ea28-4c2f-8d13-6eaca7a9dce2_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Adetokunbo=2C
 =3B
Tha= nk you for your excellent question.
 =3B
I sent the email to [app= s-discuss] =3Bbecause I needed a witness. =3B Nobody is trying to d= eny my request for help on this issue now. =3B I didn't want to bother = the whole group with an 'update' on the issue because at the moment it stil= l has not been resolved. =3B Unjustly locking me up is an injustice to = standards development right now.
 =3B
The court is not denying my= attendance on the day my case was lost. =3B The sudden warrant for my = arrest was because they later found the case=2C then scheduled a new court = date =3Bthat I never knew about. =3B I expect that because of the w= itness at IETF this situation is being handled much more professionally. =3B
I was in a =3Bdark alley in fear of =3Battack so = =3BI turned the lights on and all the cockroaches ran to hide. =3B Yes = the court should have a sign in register but it does not work that way.&nbs= p=3B They may have upgraded to video facial recognition.
 =3B
OAS= IS finally came back online after almost 5 days down. =3B About 90% of = the messages in the month of March took place =3Bimmediately prior to t= he failure and were =3Bon the topic of =3Bmy proposal. =3B Toda= y the discussion is picking up again. =3B This warrant popped up the se= cond day of the OASIS [xml-dev] outage. =3B It does not appear to be re= lated.
 =3B
Big Brother is watching.
 =3B
Brian
CC: stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov=3B barbara.berger@co= bbcounty.org=3B apps-discuss@ietf.org
From: abashorun@gmail.com
Subje= ct: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0
Date: Mon=2C 31 Mar 2014 17:55:20 +000= 0
To: xml4ietf@live.com

Dear Brian=2C

I am a little bit confused about this email. Is this an ietf issue or yo= u need advice on this problem? Doesn't the court have a register where thos= e who come to court could sign ? And this could serve as evidence that you = complied.

Kind regards=2C
Adetokunbo
=
Sent from my iPad

On 26 Mar 2014=2C at 22:48=2C Brian Abe= rle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B = wrote:

=0A= =0A= =0A=
To: Stanley Slater - FBI Atlanta
To: Barbara Berger - C= obb County Solicitor General
CC: [apps-discuss]
 =3B
I assume = that we all know this is public information:(attached for your convenience)=
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3DD7EC275E76D29= 5CF%21968
 =3B
I appeared for court in Cobb County Georgia wh= ere =3Bthey operate very unprofessionally. =3B I was told that ther= e was no case number for me and I was =3Btold to leave and given no cou= rt date. =3B I was supposed to leave without having any record of my at= tendance. =3B I was out on bond. =3B I said=2C "If I leave you will= put out a warrant for my arrest for not being here"=2C at which time I was= handed =3Ba business card from Barbara Berger with the printed phone n= umber 770 528 8500 and hand written =3B770-528-8531 to be used as a ref= erence should anyone question this. =3B I was free to leave without&nbs= p=3Bscheduling any return court date. =3B I am not from Georgia and hav= e no family or business there.

I am in Colorado. =3B I got news = today that by bond was revoked. =3B =3BIs this a mistake? =3B I= t seems like if you cross the wrong GBI agent=2C the Gestapo will come to a= rrest you. =3B I need a more official perspective from one of you that = can explain why the court can do this. =3B Should I sign a waiver of ex= tradition back to that ridiculous Cobb County court system? =3B
&nbs= p=3B
Ya'll have my contact info: =3B RoaringCheckmate@live.com =3B =3B or =3B = =3B =3B 404.448.1244 =3B so please contact me if there is some prob= lem. =3B Contact me =3Bif you find my case number. =3B Contact = me =3Bto re-schedule a court date. =3B If you need me to appear som= ewhere I am still willing. =3B A person never knows when they lose your= case file if the court will lose it forever of find it in a few months.&nb= sp=3B It would be more convenient for me do have court in another state whe= re I might not be a prejudged case. =3B Id like to avoid all the guns a= nd arrest drama if anyone is willing to help me make that happen. =3B I= gnoring the problem makes you guilty. =3B Please contact me at your ear= liest convenience.
 =3B
I am in Colorado. =3B Today =3BI = got news that my bond was revoked. =3B Is this a mistake? =3B Don't= I need to miss a court date before you do that? =3B It seems like if y= ou cross the wrong GBI agent or Warden or Sheriff the Gestapo will come to = arrest you. =3B I need a more official =3Bexplanation from one of y= ou.
 =3B
Brian Aberle
=0A=
<=3BArraignment Day.docx>=3B
<= /blockquote>
<=3BObstruction of Injustice - Exhibit A.doc= x>=3B
<=3BObstruction of Injustice.d= ocx>=3B
________________________= _______________________
apps-discuss mailing listapps-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss=
= --_b566ec43-ea28-4c2f-8d13-6eaca7a9dce2_-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 12:34:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937A61A6FA9 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nFxlJDWnSMa3 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABFB1A6FBB for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GQ1-EX10-CAHT01.y.corp.yahoo.com (gq1-ex10-caht01.corp.gq1.yahoo.com [10.73.118.80]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/y.out) with ESMTP id s2VJYWxP001205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; 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boundary="607277540-1582974736-1396294470=:96902" X-Milter-Version: master.31+4-gbc07cd5+ X-CLX-ID: 294472002 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/xx00bKxz7kcfmHgx1IVaq79QgUQ Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bill Mills List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:34:56 -0000 --607277540-1582974736-1396294470=:96902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0AI can see splitting the spec if there is enough desire to differentia= te between the header mechanism and the SMTP extension.=A0 I object to spli= tting it if this becomes a way to treat one as "less" than the other.=A0 Th= e RRVS header spec =0Ashould be standards track.=A0 Full stop.=A0 It's impl= emented and =0Ainteroperable on 4 of the largest user impacting sites in th= e world.=0A=A0=0AI thought we had called out the potential issues such as m= odifying headers and the effect on DKIM and other such signing extensions.= =A0 If that language isn't strong enough that's easy to fix.=A0 Those issue= s a sufficient reason to split the doc IMO.=0A=0AI agree that the extension= is better in almost all ways.=A0 If that wants to be it's own spec that's = fine.=A0 It has all the adoptability hurdles already discussed here, and is= probably (the right/a good) long term strategy.=0A=0A-bill=0A=0A=0A=0A----= ----------------------------=0AWilliam J. Mills=0A"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo! --607277540-1582974736-1396294470=:96902 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I can see spl= itting the spec if there is enough desire to differentiate between the head= er mechanism and the SMTP extension.  I object to splitting it if this= becomes a way to treat one as "less" than the other.  The RRVS= header spec =0Ashould be standards track.  Full stop.  It's impl= emented and =0Ainteroperable on 4 of the largest user impacting sites in th= e world.
 
I thought we had called out the potential issu= es such as modifying headers and the effect on DKIM and other such signing = extensions.  If that language isn't strong enough that's easy to fix.&= nbsp; Those issues a sufficient reason to split the doc IMO.

I agree= that the extension is better in almost all ways.  If that wants to be= it's own spec that's fine.  It has all the adoptability hurdles alrea= dy discussed here, and is probably (the right/a good) long term strategy.
-bill


--------------------------------
William J. Mill= s
"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo!



--607277540-1582974736-1396294470=:96902-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 12:35:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5D71A6FB5 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLmvkDwrnZ0H for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrout2-b.corp.bf1.yahoo.com (mrout2-b.corp.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.253.105]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758561A6FA9 for ; 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Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:54 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001, CgpJIGNhbiBzZWUgc3BsaXR0aW5nIHRoZSBzcGVjIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGVub3VnaCBkZXNpcmUgdG8gZGlmZmVyZW50aWF0ZSBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSBoZWFkZXIgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGFuZCB0aGUgU01UUCBleHRlbnNpb24uwqAgSSBvYmplY3QgdG8gc3BsaXR0aW5nIGl0IGlmIHRoaXMgYmVjb21lcyBhIHdheSB0byB0cmVhdCBvbmUgYXMgImxlc3MiIHRoYW4gdGhlIG90aGVyLsKgIFRoZSBSUlZTIGhlYWRlciBzcGVjIApzaG91bGQgYmUgc3RhbmRhcmRzIHRyYWNrLsKgIEZ1bGwgc3RvcC7CoCBJdCdzIGltcGwBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.181.645 References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> <533897F3.5050005@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <1396294494.25132.YahooMailNeo@web125601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:54 -0700 From: Bill Mills To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , John R Levine In-Reply-To: <533897F3.5050005@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1981468715-1459097389-1396294494=:25132" X-Milter-Version: master.31+4-gbc07cd5+ X-CLX-ID: 294495000 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/QycDLesqzTtmeVz8oSzy_LIO8OY Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bill Mills List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:35:23 -0000 ---1981468715-1459097389-1396294494=:25132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0AI can see splitting the spec if there is enough desire to differentia= te between the header mechanism and the SMTP extension.=A0 I object to spli= tting it if this becomes a way to treat one as "less" than the other.=A0 Th= e RRVS header spec =0Ashould be standards track.=A0 Full stop.=A0 It's impl= emented and =0Ainteroperable on 4 of the largest user impacting sites in th= e world.=0A=A0=0AI thought we had called out the potential issues such as m= odifying headers and the effect on DKIM and other such signing extensions.= =A0 If that language isn't strong enough that's easy to fix.=A0 Those issue= s do not constitue a reason to split the doc.=0A=0AI agree that the extensi= on is better in almost all ways.=A0 If that want's to be it's own spec, fin= e.=A0 It has all the adoptability hurdles already discussed here, and is th= e right long term strategy.=0A=0A-bill=0A=0A=0A=0A-------------------------= -------=0AWilliam J. Mills=0A"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo! ---1981468715-1459097389-1396294494=:25132 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span id=3D"yiv2703912016yui_3_13_0_ym1_123_1395628623674_24">
I can see splitting the spec if there is enough desire to differentiate b= etween the header mechanism and the SMTP extension.  I object to splitting it if= this becomes a way to treat one as "less" than the other.  The= RRVS header spec =0Ashould be standards track.  Full stop.  It's= implemented and =0Ainteroperable on 4 of the largest user impacting sites = in the world.
 
I thought we had called out the potential iss= ues such as modifying headers and the effect on DKIM and other such signing= extensions.  If that language isn't strong enough that's easy to fix.=   Those issues do not constitue a reason to split the doc.

I agree that the extension is better in almost al= l ways.  If that want's to be it's own spec, fine.  It has all th= e adoptability hurdles already discussed here, and is the right long term s= trategy.

-bill


---------= -----------------------
William J. Mills
"Paranoid" MUX Yahoo!



<= /div>
---1981468715-1459097389-1396294494=:25132-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 13:36:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1131A7003 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z1qCyGspJVcM for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2lp0242.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.242]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29481A6F81 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.25) by BY2PR03MB410.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.141.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.908.10; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:36:39 +0000 Received: from BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) by BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.141.25]) with mapi id 15.00.0898.005; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:36:39 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Mark Nottingham Thread-Topic: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKcEaJNqgQQL1fEW4nlD27YvlO5q1S01ggAAFZJCAA6o8gIA+cQpwgAIR/oCAAmncIA== Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:36:39 +0000 Message-ID: <69983fe672df44bdae174e1ec02059aa@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:ee31::2] x-forefront-prvs: 0167DB5752 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(51704005)(24454002)(51444003)(55885003)(189002)(199002)(81816001)(97186001)(97336001)(33646001)(87936001)(74706001)(76786001)(90146001)(83072002)(56816005)(74316001)(94316002)(49866001)(81686001)(46102001)(95416001)(47736001)(79102001)(98676001)(20776003)(65816001)(80022001)(99286001)(4396001)(47976001)(51856001)(59766001)(50986001)(80976001)(63696002)(85306002)(94946001)(77982001)(81542001)(53806001)(47446002)(74502001)(74662001)(86362001)(76482001)(31966008)(83322001)(19580395003)(95666003)(87266001)(92566001)(2656002)(93136001)(85852003)(74366001)(74876001)(76796001)(76576001)(93516002)(81342001)(69226001)(54316002)(56776001)(54356001)(3826001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR03MB410; H:BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:E32CF206.8FF6D1D0.F2F11DBB.5AE9CD41.20519; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/JgAHVWuD0ae0E1T-jbAxqJcwlMU Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:36:48 -0000 Mark Nottingham wrote: [...] > > Existing text is straight from RFC 4395. How about > > "discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms" > > ? (I couldn't think of a better word than mechanisms.) > > > > Both HTTP purposes you mention use the same mechanism (the HTTP > > protocol) but I don't want to use protocol since a scheme name doesn't > > require the existence of a protocol. >=20 > WFM. That last point might be worth making explicit -- e.g., >=20 > "Discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms (often, > but not always, protocols)." Done. > >> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for use > >> with relative URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" > >> character, which is used for hierarchical delimiters, and the > >> complete path segments "." and ".." (dot- segments). If they avoid > >> use of "/", how do you tell what delimits dot-segments from other stuf= f? > > > > This is straight from RFC 4395. It says they SHOULD avoid both "/" an= d dot- > segments. > > So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits them= from > other stuff. >=20 > Right. I just find it odd that we SHOULD-prohibit the string ".." in a UR= I scheme > where it can't be mistaken for a relative reference (because there are no= "/"). >=20 > I.e., avoiding one of them, not both, is sufficient to prevent being mist= aken for a > relative reference, so why are we overly restrictive here? Added this as an open issue (added cref into doc, and filed ticket #26). =20 > >> * Definition of Operations - I'd like to see us encourage (but > >> probably not > >> require) schemes to define a *default* operation for locators; the > >> AWWW calls this "dereferencing" > >> and it would be nice > >> to align the worldviews between the W3C and IETF here. It would also > >> be good if we encouraged such default methods to be "safe" -- that is,= not > having surprising or undesired side effects, from the client's standpoint= . > > > > Agreed, though I'm not sure what to say about "safe" (text suggestions > welcome). > > > > Added this sentence: > > Scheme definitions SHOULD define a "default" operation for when a URI= is > > invoked (or "dereferenced") by an application. >=20 > See: > I read that but am still having a hard time coming up with any generic text= , since URIs may not apply to an "origin server" as in that reference. As noted in the problem statement document, one of the most common default operations is essentially "launch the app associated with the scheme name,= =20 and let it use the rest of the URI as arguments to do something". > >> * CREF3 - As per above, I think that allowing domain-based URI > >> schemes is a Bad Idea. What's the use case? > > > > Was already allowed in RFC 4395. See response above. > > I don't want to disallow existing things that are already legal unless > > there's strong consensus to do so, since that won't cause people to > > use unregistered schemes, removing that guidance would just cause > > people to use unregistered schemes that you can't track down to someone= , > which is IMO a worse state. >=20 > Do we have any evidence that people are using domain-based URI schemes? Yes (although the absence of evidence doesn't imply non-use, but evidence o= f use may imply it's probably more common than we know). We have two pieces of immediate evidence: 1) com-eventbrite-attendee is registered by eventbrite.com 2) appurl.org claims to have a "growing list of supporters" with icons on t= heir site, and they say to use forward (not reversed) domain-name based URI sche= mes. > >> * Registration Procedures - I'd be much more comfortable if there > >> were references in this section to the previous requirements; people > >> often just skip to this section in this kind of RFC, oblivious to the > >> carefully prepared requirements and arguments above. In an ideal > >> world, I'd restructure the draft so that the whole thing read like a > >> flow chart, but I'm not going to ask the WG to do that :) > > > > I can't tell if you're suggesting something actionable above or not. > > If so, can you give an example of what you'd like to see? >=20 > """ >=20 > 3. If the registration request is for a Permanent registration: >=20 > 1. Review the requirements for Permanent Scheme Definitions in Sec= tion 3. >=20 > 2. ... > """ Done. > Actually, Section 3 should probably be entitled "Requirements for ..." no= t > "Guidelines for..." since its second. sentence says they're REQUIRED. Done. -Dave From nobody Mon Mar 31 14:22:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1378F1A7019; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0iDvZWdfKmxX; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB991A6F86; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.2.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140331212249.1289.21029.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:22:49 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/wJqVAOcnd1Po78DXpdxyG-Bx4mY Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:22:53 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Applications Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Guidelines and Registration Procedures for New URI Schemes Authors : Dave Thaler Tony Hansen Ted Hardie Larry Masinter Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2014-03-31 Abstract: This document updates the guidelines and recommendations, as well as the IANA registration processes, for the definition of Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) schemes. It obsoletes RFC 4395. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 31 14:29:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704D71A6F66 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cKlwYzH-vdpR for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDD91A08DA for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id z2so2329668wiv.0 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Qw12xusKWhUOLwAKPZ6qWBskFogrWejWTgaVz5qbuGQ=; b=FqwBHcNwLGOUDpWzRzdlqaINp4Maq0xxigh7txW7Z3WQkF7HYOpyPDFQUxf74vkVyg skfss/UtLLW0wbke5VrX3k2TjUW4yBEsdvSw6wr6dAU7p7koJi4/OYQEKabUs75ykYtq mSbmvucyp5LxDMaUbhAeo+vSm337hiXHuyHYP/t4pPdKrSRRWyKcIj3lYELq0j1QwRFl jUSINAfddSvFdlsW/p/VhLFUv7G2Kgfzql0d6zwdbY/yJO1XF1NaLrHAp0S47fbtOhsh 1lRZxglw1ufET5HlZWq4Nh57h0qLbAE1VPPjbaezV87NPStdeTrLJ1pvKznFxFCO2W9C FvPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.190.42 with SMTP id gn10mr17750303wjc.9.1396301350688; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.90.140 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" To: Brian Aberle Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb7088201dde104f5edbebb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/t8TQWZoOa_HgFEn964xnImPYEtA Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:29:16 -0000 --047d7bb7088201dde104f5edbebb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Brian Aberle wrote: > I sent the email to [apps-discuss] because I needed a witness. Nobody is > trying to deny my request for help on this issue now. I didn't want to > bother the whole group with an 'update' on the issue because at the moment > it still has not been resolved. Unjustly locking me up is an injustice to > standards development right now. > This is entirely off-topic for this list, and is also an inappropriate use of it and of the mailboxes of the 500+ subscribers on it. Please discontinue this thread. -MSK, APPSAWG co-chair --047d7bb7088201dde104f5edbebb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Brian Aberle <xml4iet= f@live.com> wrote:
I sent the email to [apps-discuss]=A0because I needed= a witness.=A0 Nobody is trying to deny my request for help on this issue n= ow.=A0 I didn't want to bother the whole group with an 'update'= on the issue because at the moment it still has not been resolved.=A0 Unju= stly locking me up is an injustice to standards development right now.

This is entirely off-topic for= this list, and is also an inappropriate use of it and of the mailboxes of = the 500+ subscribers on it.

Please discontinue this thread.

-MSK, APPSAWG co-chair
--047d7bb7088201dde104f5edbebb-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 14:55:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654B11A08D5 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0KLc4xR1ofCh for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snt0-omc3-s33.snt0.hotmail.com (snt0-omc3-s33.snt0.hotmail.com [65.55.90.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3041A802D for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SNT146-W79 ([65.55.90.135]) by snt0-omc3-s33.snt0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:54:54 -0700 X-TMN: [J2T/FjixVqoMgFS4RyXXbgdvddpUN8Qe] X-Originating-Email: [xml4ietf@live.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_e3457ab7-c7dc-432b-8112-1050d7e03e39_" From: Brian Aberle To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:54:54 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , , , MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2014 21:54:54.0401 (UTC) FILETIME=[D970BB10:01CF4D2B] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/JAuOUqaklfgnyTFW9Qun_ARdGI0 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:55:00 -0000 --_e3457ab7-c7dc-432b-8112-1050d7e03e39_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murray=2C =20 You already petitioned the moderators to remove the thread. Why on earth = would you send the message to 500+ people to bother them=2C kinda hypocriti= cal isn't it? You once called me "passionate" about OID's in XML and said = that there is no interest on that subject at IETF but there is interest. =20 Brian =20 Date: Mon=2C 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0 From: superuser@gmail.com To: xml4ietf@live.com CC: abashorun@gmail.com=3B stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov=3B apps-discuss@ietf.o= rg On Mon=2C Mar 31=2C 2014 at 12:03 PM=2C Brian Aberle wr= ote: =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I sent the email to [apps-discuss] because I needed a witness. Nobody is t= rying to deny my request for help on this issue now. I didn't want to both= er the whole group with an 'update' on the issue because at the moment it s= till has not been resolved. Unjustly locking me up is an injustice to stan= dards development right now. =0A= This is entirely off-topic for this list=2C and is also an inappropriate us= e of it and of the mailboxes of the 500+ subscribers on it. Please discontinue this thread. =0A= -MSK=2C APPSAWG co-chair = --_e3457ab7-c7dc-432b-8112-1050d7e03e39_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Murray=2C
 =3B
You alr= eady petitioned the moderators to remove the thread. =3B =3B Why on= earth would you send the message to 500+ people to bother them=2C kinda hy= pocritical isn't =3Bit? =3B =3BYou once =3Bcalled me "passi= onate" about OID's in XML and said that there is no interest on that subjec= t at IETF but there is interest.
 =3B
Brian
 =3B
<= hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Mon=2C 31 Mar 2014 14:29:10 -0700
Subject: = Re: [apps-discuss] Help! v2.0
From: superuser@gmail.com
To: xml4ietf@= live.com
CC: abashorun@gmail.com=3B stanley.slater@ic.fbi.gov=3B apps-di= scuss@ietf.org

On Mon=2C Mar 31=2C 2014 at 12:03 PM= =2C Brian Aberle <=3Bxml4ietf@live.com>=3B wrote:
=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A=
I sent the email to [apps-discuss] =3Bbecause I n= eeded a witness. =3B Nobody is trying to deny my request for help on th= is issue now. =3B I didn't want to bother the whole group with an 'upda= te' on the issue because at the moment it still has not been resolved. = =3B Unjustly locking me up is an injustice to standards development right n= ow.
=0A=

This is entirely off-topic for= this list=2C and is also an inappropriate use of it and of the mailboxes o= f the 500+ subscribers on it.

Please discontinue this thread.
=0A=
-MSK=2C APPSAWG co-chair
=
= --_e3457ab7-c7dc-432b-8112-1050d7e03e39_-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 15:51:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9DC1A6FDC for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olUL7xoNp2CL for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB611A6F7A for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id y20so8408744ier.13 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CfgxPsTWLfHvrAN5SK/vZjQrAtE7vepNrc74qzP5WLc=; b=x9CuKblTiThINQCKT6XeXHFdP0So8m6NOnft2rhBKJATYM3wRQzTCk7ZMSsJNRwrUF 9GIY6M633PvEdEw/a0Bjez/FmwhHov3PtlSfwZbiDlgk1IvF06vkYXMjaT1RRmTdQKJJ o9anBwul9DkFWDMoAv5okLtLOEH0S4Gv2IKOqjCRDLdLmd9+v0B6SQcaKUFBXinFf56h r25oTT8kV+5z41bNiVWLPDmBLK0DyRckTjxWeNhpvrTaM/Oi6RqHfImFWtYltz+p3PnJ 9u4LIQ7kc54ylO+Nj9Xc3aUPseave6plmMYngZmFKCzki0WxvGLIDjgoaBKa4oUD/QSw zZSQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.4.2 with SMTP id oa2mr36194283icb.4.1396306293826; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.237.206 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140214201230.23637.87657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6485d2fdca9a447784465263cdcf8d32@BY2PR03MB412.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <9108BBA8-5FA3-4E52-816D-56E22BA3CA41@mnot.net> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: Dave Thaler Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5014cbda42a8b04f5eee468 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/EHl9aaIRT5aMjgyJBBfIX82fdTw Cc: Mark Nottingham , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for draft-thaler-appsawg-uri-scheme-reg-00.txt X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:51:40 -0000 --bcaec5014cbda42a8b04f5eee468 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Fading memory comment in-line. On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Dave Thaler wrote: > Mark Nottingham wrote: > > * Introduction - "discourage use of the same scheme name for different > > purposes." This is a bit ambiguous; e.g., I use http:// for the > purposes of > > checking the weather and my bank balance, and that's OK. Suggest: > > "discourage handling of a scheme by in conflicting ways." > > Existing text is straight from RFC 4395. How about > "discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms" > ? (I couldn't think of a better word than mechanisms.) > > Both HTTP purposes you mention use the same mechanism (the HTTP > protocol) but I don't want to use protocol since a scheme name doesn't > require the existence of a protocol. > > > * Introduction (and throughout) - there are a number of lowercase > "should" and > > "may"s in the document; some people might complain. > > These are all straight from RFC 4395. A couple are trivial to replace > with other words. > Otherwise, if I think it's unambiguous already, I'll leave it to see if > anyone > actually complains. > > > * Demonstratable... - s/demonstratable/demonstrable/ > > Done in my local copy (previously straight from RFC 4395). > > > * Demonstratable - "...some parts of URI processing may be scheme- > > dependent." I think this needs to be stronger; at least "...are often > scheme- > > dependent." > > Agreed and accepted. > > > * CREF1 - LGTM. > > Thanks, removing CREF1. > > > > * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for use with > relative > > URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" character, which is used > for > > hierarchical delimiters, and the complete path segments "." and ".." > (dot- > > segments). If they avoid use of "/", how do you tell what delimits > dot-segments > > from other stuff? > > This is straight from RFC 4395. It says they SHOULD avoid both "/" and > dot-segments. > So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits them > from other stuff. > > > * Syntactic Compatibility - "...the first part of a URI is not an > artistic indicator..." > > I'd drop "artistic". > > Straight from RFC 4395, but accepted. > > > * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that do not contain a conformant > > hierarchical structure in their SHOULD NOT use > double > > slashes following the string." Why is this not a MUST NOT? > > The authors of RFC 4395 which had this statement, should answer that... > Tony, Ted, or Larry? I suspect the answer is because it doesn't seem to > cause > any interoperability issues if it's violated, and indeed some heuristics > for > detecting URIs in plaintext might actually work better if it's violated. > > So, my memory on this is a bit faded (and I don't have access to the email stream any more), so I'd be happy to be corrected, but my memory boils down to this following language in RFC 2718 (see RFC 2718, section 2.1.2). I think there was some additional disccusion about cases where you can't tell the difference between a hierarchical structure and a flat namespace. RFC 3986 has the following: URIs that identify in relation to the end-user's local context should only be used when the context itself is a defining aspect of the resource, such as when an on-line help manual refers to a file on the end- user's file system (e.g., "file:///etc/hosts"). If someone proposed a scheme where this is the only available context, is it hierarchical or not? That is, for a scheme "fleen" where all references must be to the top of a local hierarchy ( fleen:///example or gtld://aero ), is the implied hierarchy enough to let you use the // construct, or should it be fleen:example and gtld:aero?) Or is it up to the registrant to decide? Has anyone tried to wiggle through the SHOULD NOT to use it, or is it just cleaning up the language here? Ted > > * Well-Defined - "While URIs may or may not be defined as locators in > practice, > > a scheme definition itself MUST be clear..." Does this really deserve > to be a > > MUST? When advice is given about what to document elsewhere in the spec, > it > > always seems to be a SHOULD. > > Not sure if the authors of RFC 4395 have an answer but my view is... > I don't know how you can call a scheme definition a "scheme definition" if > it > does not actually define whether it's a locator or not. > > Also the "Clear Security Considerations" section (same as in RFC 4395) > also has a > MUST so this isn't the only such occurrence. > > > * Well-Defined - "In particular, the mapping SHOULD describe the > mechanisms > > for encoding binary or character strings within valid character > sequences in a > > URI." I feel like this ought to be more clearly qualified to cases > where such > > content is valid for the application; some might read this as requiring a > > mapping for binary in all schemes. > > Since I think it's already clearer in section 3.6, so how about this... > > OLD: > In particular, the mapping SHOULD > describe the mechanisms for encoding binary or character strings > within valid character sequences in a URI (see Section 3.6 for > guidelines). > > NEW: > See Section 3.6 for guidelines for encoding binary or character strings > within valid character sequences in a URI. > > > * Definition of Operations - HTTP calls them "methods", and this should > be > > noted here to avoid confusing people (we saw it recently). > > OLD: > A model for this is HTTP; an HTTP resource can be operated on by GET, > POST, PUT, and a number of other operations available through the > HTTP protocol. > > NEW: > A model for this is HTTP methods; an HTTP resource can be operated on > by GET, > POST, PUT, and a number of other methods available through the > HTTP protocol. > > > * Definition of Operations - I'd like to see us encourage (but probably > not > > require) schemes to define a *default* operation for locators; the AWWW > calls > > this "dereferencing" > and it > > would be nice to align the worldviews between the W3C and IETF here. It > would > > also be good if we encouraged such default methods to be "safe" -- that > is, not > > having surprising or undesired side effects, from the client's > standpoint. > > Agreed, though I'm not sure what to say about "safe" (text suggestions > welcome). > > Added this sentence: > Scheme definitions SHOULD define a "default" operation for when a URI is > invoked (or "dereferenced") by an application. > > > * Scheme Name Considerations - There's a shift in use of language in this > > section in the two paragraphs starting with "Avoid..." -- it's direct, > first-person > > advice, whereas the rest of the spec is more third-person. > > Yep. This was in RFC 4395 but will change for consistency. > > > > * Scheme Name Considerations - I'm very much against "private" / > > organisationally scoped registrations -- is the idea that someone can > then make > > up new URI schemes without registering them? This seems counter to the > > purposes of having URIs, as per the AWWW. > > Yes I believe that was the idea, and I don't believe it's counter to the > purposes of > having URIs. Indeed we've learned by observation of reality that people > will > do that regardless of what we say. So I think the idea was to allow > self-generated > unregistered ones, based on your domain name, so if they leak then at least > you can be tracked down and interrogated :) > > > * CREF2 - The HTML5 folks have spec'd (not clear if they've implemented) > > web+, so we should at least talk about it. To me, the problem is that if > > somebody comes along and does something like email+, which one wins -- > i.e. > > do I now have to handle both email+web+http:// and web+email+http:// as > > equivalent? Bleurgh. > > This is part of ticket #16 which the WG discussed at IETF. > The rough consensus in the room was not to allow this, hence removed cref2 > and closed the ticket. > > > * CREF3 - As per above, I think that allowing domain-based URI schemes > is a > > Bad Idea. What's the use case? > > Was already allowed in RFC 4395. See response above. > I don't want to disallow existing things that are already legal unless > there's strong > consensus to do so, since that won't cause people to use unregistered > schemes, > removing that guidance would just cause people to use unregistered schemes > that you can't track down to someone, which is IMO a worse state. > > > > * Guidelines for Provisional URI Scheme Registration - The first > paragraph > > indicates that provisional is for "private" schemes. I think we need to > have a > > discussion about that in the WG (perhaps in a separate thread), because > AFAICT > > provisional is NOT being used that way; rather, it's being used to > reserve > > namespace for parties that can't be bothered doing full registration. > That's not > > to say that there's something wrong with that; as the draft points out, > one > > motivation is to make registration easier; it's just that we should be > honest > > about why we have provisional - I'd rather not encourage private URI use > at all > > (but keep provisional). > > No, it doesn't indicate the provisional is for "private" schemes. It > (same as > RFC 4395) says it's for schemes that are NOT private. Here's the text: > > Provisional registration can be used for schemes that are not part of > any standard, but that are intended for use (or observed to be in > use) outside a private environment within a single organization. > > The key word is "outside" a private environment. It sounds like you read > it > (as "inside") opposite to how it was intended. I changed "outside" to > "that is not limited to" in the hopes that's clearer. > > > > * Registration Procedures - I'd be much more comfortable if there were > > references in this section to the previous requirements; people often > just skip to > > this section in this kind of RFC, oblivious to the carefully prepared > requirements > > and arguments above. In an ideal world, I'd restructure the draft so > that the > > whole thing read like a flow chart, but I'm not going to ask the WG to > do that :) > > I can't tell if you're suggesting something actionable above or not. > If so, can you give an example of what you'd like to see? > > > * Registration Procedures - "Unless Expert Review has explicitly > rejected the > > registration request within two weeks, IANA should automatically add the > > registration to the registry as 'provisional." I'm a bit uncomfortable > with this; if > > the Experts aren't on the ball, get sick, go on holiday, etc., we can > end up with > > some surprising results. Can we just raise an exception to the ADs or > > something? > > The above sentence will go away in the next rev since there was general > support > for changing Provisional to FCFS. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > --bcaec5014cbda42a8b04f5eee468 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fading memory comment in-line.
<= br>
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Dave Tha= ler <dthaler@microsoft.com> wrote:
Mark Nott= ingham wrote:
> * Introduction - "discourage use of the same scheme name for diff= erent
> purposes." This is a bit ambiguous; e.g., I use http:// for the p= urposes of
> checking the weather and my bank balance, and that's OK. Suggest:<= br> > "discourage handling of a scheme by in conflicting ways."
Existing text is straight from RFC 4395. =A0 How about
"discourage use of the same scheme name for different mechanisms"=
? =A0(I couldn't think of a better word than mechanisms.)

Both HTTP purposes you mention use the same mechanism (the HTTP
protocol) but I don't want to use protocol since a scheme name doesn= 9;t
require the existence of a protocol.

> * Introduction (and throughout) - there are a number of lowercase &quo= t;should" and
> "may"s in the document; some people might complain.

These are all straight from RFC 4395. =A0 A couple are trivial to rep= lace with other words.
Otherwise, if I think it's unambiguous already, I'll leave it to se= e if anyone
actually complains.

> * Demonstratable... - s/demonstratable/demonstrable/

Done in my local copy (previously straight from RFC 4395).

> * Demonstratable - "...some parts of URI processing may be scheme= -
> dependent." I think this needs to be stronger; at least "...= are often scheme-
> dependent."

Agreed and accepted.

> * CREF1 - LGTM.

Thanks, removing CREF1.


> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that are not intended for us= e with relative
> URIs SHOULD avoid use of the forward slash "/" character, wh= ich is used for
> hierarchical delimiters, and the complete path segments "." = and ".." (dot-
> segments). =A0If they avoid use of "/", how do you tell what= delimits dot-segments
> from other stuff?

This is straight from RFC 4395. =A0 It says they SHOULD avoid both &q= uot;/" and dot-segments.
So if you avoid dot-segments, you don't need to tell what delimits them= from other stuff.

> * Syntactic Compatibility - "...the first part of a URI is not an= artistic indicator..."
> I'd drop "artistic".

Straight from RFC 4395, but accepted.

> * Syntactic Compatibility - "Schemes that do not contain a confor= mant
> hierarchical structure in their <scheme-specific-part> SHOULD NO= T use double
> slashes following the <scheme:> string." =A0Why is this not= a MUST NOT?

The authors of RFC 4395 which had this statement, should answer that.= ..
Tony, Ted, or Larry? =A0I suspect the answer is because it doesn't seem= to cause
any interoperability issues if it's violated, and indeed some heuristic= s for
detecting URIs in plaintext might actually work better if it's violated= .


So, my memory on this is a bit faded = (and I don't have access to the email stream any more), so I'd be h= appy to be corrected, but my memory boils down to this following language i= n RFC 2718 (see RFC 2718, section 2.1.2).=A0 I think there was some additio= nal disccusion about=A0 cases where you can't tell the difference betwe= en a hierarchical structure and a flat namespace.=A0 RFC 3986 has the follo= wing:

   URIs that identify in relation to the end-user's=
 local context should only be
   used when the context itself is a defining aspect of the resource,
   such as when an on-line help manual refers to a file on the end-
   user's file system (e.g., "file:///etc/hosts").
If so= meone proposed a scheme where this is the only available context, is it hie= rarchical or not?=A0 That is, for a scheme "fleen" where all refe= rences must be to the top of a local hierarchy ( fleen:///example or gtld:/= /aero ),=A0 is the implied hierarchy enough to let you use the // construct= , or should it be fleen:example and gtld:aero?)=A0 Or is it up to the regis= trant to decide?

= Has anyone tried to wiggle through the SHOULD NOT to use it, or is it just = cleaning up the language here?

Ted


=A0
> * Well-Defined - "While URIs may or may not be defined as locator= s in practice,
> a scheme definition itself MUST be clear..." =A0Does this really = deserve to be a
> MUST? When advice is given about what to document elsewhere in the spe= c, it
> always seems to be a SHOULD.

Not sure if the authors of RFC 4395 have an answer but my view is...<= br> I don't know how you can call a scheme definition a "scheme defini= tion" if it
does not actually define whether it's a locator or not.

Also the "Clear Security Considerations" section (same as in RFC = 4395) also has a
MUST so this isn't the only such occurrence.

> * Well-Defined - "In particular, the mapping SHOULD describe the = mechanisms
> for encoding binary or character strings within valid character sequen= ces in a
> URI." =A0I feel like this ought to be more clearly qualified to c= ases where such
> content is valid for the application; some might read this as requirin= g a
> mapping for binary in all schemes.

Since I think it's already clearer in section 3.6, so how about t= his...

OLD:
=A0 =A0In particular, the mapping SHOULD
=A0 =A0describe the mechanisms for encoding binary or character strings
=A0 =A0within valid character sequences in a URI (see Section 3.6 for=
=A0 =A0guidelines).

NEW:
=A0 =A0See Section 3.6 for guidelines for encoding binary or character stri= ngs
=A0 =A0within valid character sequences in a URI.

> * Definition of Operations - HTTP calls them &qu= ot;methods", and this should be
> noted here to avoid confusing people (we saw it recently).

OLD:
=A0 =A0A model for this is HTTP; an HTTP resource can be operated on by GET= ,
=A0 =A0POST, PUT, and a number of other operations available through the =A0 =A0HTTP protocol.

NEW:
=A0 =A0A model for this is HTTP methods; an HTTP resource can be operated o= n by GET,
=A0 =A0POST, PUT, and a number of other methods available through the
=A0 =A0HTTP protocol.

> * Definition of Operations - I'd like to see us encourage (but pro= bably not
> require) schemes to define a *default* operation for locators; the AWW= W calls
> this "dereferencing" <http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#dere= ference-uri> and it
> would be nice to align the worldviews between the W3C and IETF here. I= t would
> also be good if we encouraged such default methods to be "safe&qu= ot; -- that is, not
> having surprising or undesired side effects, from the client's sta= ndpoint.

Agreed, though I'm not sure what to say about "safe" (t= ext suggestions welcome).

Added this sentence:
=A0 =A0Scheme definitions SHOULD define a "default" operation for= when a URI is
=A0 =A0invoked (or "dereferenced") by an application.

> * Scheme Name Considerations - There's a shift in use of language = in this
> section in the two paragraphs starting with "Avoid..." -- it= 's direct, first-person
> advice, whereas the rest of the spec is more third-person.

Yep. =A0This was in RFC 4395 but will change for consistency.


> * Scheme Name Considerations - I'm very much against "private= " /
> organisationally scoped registrations -- is the idea that someone can = then make
> up new URI schemes without registering them? This seems counter to the=
> purposes of having URIs, as per the AWWW.

Yes I believe that was the idea, and I don't believe it's cou= nter to the purposes of
having URIs. =A0Indeed we've learned by observation of reality that peo= ple will
do that regardless of what we say. =A0 So I think the idea was to allow sel= f-generated
unregistered ones, based on your domain name, so if they leak then at least=
you can be tracked down and interrogated :)

> * CREF2 - The HTML5 folks have spec'd (not clear if they've im= plemented)
> web+, so we should at least talk about it. To me, the problem is that = if
> somebody comes along and does something like email+, which one wins --= i.e.
> do I now have to handle both email+web+http:// and web+email+http:// a= s
> equivalent? Bleurgh.

This is part of ticket #16 which the WG discussed at IETF.
The rough consensus in the room was not to allow this, hence removed cref2<= br> and closed the ticket.

> * CREF3 - As per above, I think that allowing domain-based URI schemes= is a
> Bad Idea. What's the use case?

Was already allowed in RFC 4395. =A0See response above.
I don't want to disallow existing things that are already legal unless = there's strong
consensus to do so, since that won't cause people to use unregistered s= chemes,
removing that guidance would just cause people to use unregistered schemes<= br> that you can't track down to someone, which is IMO a worse state.


> * Guidelines for Provisional URI Scheme Registration - The first parag= raph
> indicates that provisional is for "private" schemes. I think= we need to have a
> discussion about that in the WG (perhaps in a separate thread), becaus= e AFAICT
> provisional is NOT being used that way; rather, it's being used to= reserve
> namespace for parties that can't be bothered doing full registrati= on. That's not
> to say that there's something wrong with that; as the draft points= out, one
> motivation is to make registration easier; it's just that we shoul= d be honest
> about why we have provisional - I'd rather not encourage private U= RI use at all
> (but keep provisional).

No, it doesn't indicate the provisional is for "private"= ; schemes. =A0It (same as
RFC 4395) says it's for schemes that are NOT private. =A0Here's the= text:

=A0 =A0Provisional registration can be used for schemes that are not part o= f
=A0 =A0any standard, but that are intended for use (or observed to be in =A0 =A0use) outside a private environment within a single organization.

The key word is "outside" a private environment. =A0 It sounds li= ke you read it
(as "inside") opposite to how it was intended. =A0I changed "= ;outside" to
"that is not limited to" in the hopes that's clearer.


> * Registration Procedures - I'd be much more comfortable if there = were
> references in this section to the previous requirements; people often = just skip to
> this section in this kind of RFC, oblivious to the carefully prepared = requirements
> and arguments above. In an ideal world, I'd restructure the draft = so that the
> whole thing read like a flow chart, but I'm not going to ask the W= G to do that :)

I can't tell if you're suggesting something actionable above = or not.
If so, can you give an example of what you'd like to see?

> * Registration Procedures - "Unless Expert Review has explicitly = rejected the
> registration request within two weeks, IANA should automatically add t= he
> registration to the registry as 'provisional." =A0I'm a b= it uncomfortable with this; if
> the Experts aren't on the ball, get sick, go on holiday, etc., we = can end up with
> some surprising results. Can we just raise an exception to the ADs or<= br> > something?

The above sentence will go away in the next rev since there was gener= al support
for changing Provisional to FCFS.

-Dave

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--bcaec5014cbda42a8b04f5eee468-- From nobody Mon Mar 31 15:56:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A3F1A6FEC for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgkiW4NMTrEh for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22a.google.com (mail-qa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367931A6F7A for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id k15so8887720qaq.15 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cahn9F0NpNM4qNoSyOkY3y8P130lnmoUw9pK+gR7TOA=; b=rfq1qpW+kCT/I7vY2xcUHc+INOiwAGduCiMGiObAJC46k2PUBBh+9YNjcBdTbdWgyI Z5oEDfJk2fSYx7ZjuBLwOOAfyF4nSzg0Grwlrdhw5nSUeqRIs1omUjpxNUbWbt+VHyow JSKCrPcXMgBalIeN8L4YFEvDuArL6VAoReH7fqbj+7rE1at8yYsShhc/hdyAlHZFLK+D omE+UgIax2qoLdfo6O+r4o4YLWlQFNv2+QNqSdSLIKGBWRjyfY5TRx1PZvJXkw1D4hhx BCIjzZHS4fjxao21HysGU8hD8R7MbOhC7+GBKF1xjqa/m073QEBEHtnfZWGQ+IFat5y0 UR9w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.30.147 with SMTP id u19mr12360428qac.49.1396306591687; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.94.165 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <533897F3.5050005@dcrocker.net> References: <20140330033009.4839.qmail@joyce.lan> <5337998C.3080403@dcrocker.net> <53388D3C.7090105@dcrocker.net> <533893C3.1070903@dcrocker.net> <533897F3.5050005@dcrocker.net> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:56:31 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qeInOpJoTRGyYvxbZydGlpgHM64 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apps-discuss/VNoDTPACI_2irwoDaFNstamUhfo Cc: John R Levine , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] Not splitting RRVS X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:56:36 -0000 >> Could you do me a big favor and stop attempting to rephrase what I said? >> You're not very good at it. ... > Also, I didn't "rephrase" what you said. I offered an assessment of it. > The difference is fundamental. I find this discussion between the two of you tr=E8s bizarre, because you're working against each other, when what John brought up seems to support what Dave wants. Here, let me try to bring it around to a resolution of a significant issue: What started this was a contention that the SMTP extension is "better" (latitude here, for the moment) than the header field. No one really disputes that. And then, that because it's better, the two should be defined separately, with the extension set up as Standards Track, and the header field not. That's where the dispute is. One basis for the dispute is that the extension is not *sufficiently* better to make a real difference: neither is a guarantee, so does it really matter whether we have a very loose non-guarantee, or a somewhat, but not completely better non-guarantee? Senders might be willing to get failures bounced, but are senders really willing to get non-support bounced? If they try, it's likely that people will sign up with their banks and *never* get any transactional mail because they happen to be on a mail system that doesn't support the RRVS extension. So John points out something that's worth discussing in the document, and that might address Pete's concerns: The guaranteed way to do this is with S/MIME mail encrypted to the recipient's key. No intermediary support is needed for this -- it's only that the recipient's email system has to support S/MIME (not a huge problem today, though I'll note that Gmail doesn't), and that the recipient has to have certs set up (Oy!). I still think it's better to split out the header-field version and make it Informational. But the argument above makes it less of an issue. Perhaps the RRVS document should have a section that talks about the advantages of the extension over the header field, the realities of the header field over the extension, and the real security limitations of both. Perhaps that section should say that if guarantees are needed, neither of these does it, and senders should consider S/MIME. But if a "do your best" request suffices, these mechanism are useful. We could now ask what Pete would think about that. Barry