From nobody Sun Jan 3 05:42:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707F31ACC83 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 05:42:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KW8gHs94eF9K for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 05:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1373F1A9129 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 05:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id o67so415076150iof.3 for ; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 05:42:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=fnmr+mX7BsdOpcC9Z2zNotchB7rt6wqx+10WjetD4gw=; b=eiwqRAMna6fDInK1Hzy2mtVaUPUeoql9Y9dcpsp0/nZ90uY3sa1kJwK0QhiV1T6MQc R3OymjYOJ7yXg1rYXBcQKzCbYZMvi5NMOJzUFo5NNxHdhkg+lt1XGnSxtjuLsQdEYUBg hhcZ2RZMMwEfB4J6aSjXHmVFjwz5ZGDQKhBhPxlZXhjE0u8I5WoXTFXuuZkbRbsyWPpW QzzuWAU5Euti3N0De2O33+Ma3o8mWgsJnbDdriZIiS3hr5KIDrLhP6/5si2+vWxvi8qK XSQ+G1b0FRBhyOme+89rRDOC6LbZJYzmgNL6sIFlbSMI9hcDqynuGRvcmO5Pr7VRlv32 Y4rg== X-Received: by 10.107.26.129 with SMTP id a123mr2690201ioa.131.1451828532424; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 05:42:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 05:41:53 -0800 (PST) From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:41:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 13:42:14 -0000 Hello, Secretly in the shadows, I have been developing a new Internet Protocol "Five Fields" for quite some time. It is designed to be superior than both IPv4 and IPv6. And even made a nice presentation about IP-FF and it's features: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XbqWOwv0GASmSjYZimfK64QKQQ-0yK9xQ1_spRhlf8Y/edit?usp=sharing It now consists of 10 parts: (submitted as IETF drafts) 1. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff/ 2. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: Addressing Architecture https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-addressing/ 3. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: Babysitter (new NAT) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-babysitter/ 4. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: DHCP https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-dhcp/ 5. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: DNS extensions https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-dns/ 6. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: ICMP https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-icmp/ 7. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: Link Address Resolution Algorithm (ARP replacement) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-lara/ 8. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: Mobile TCP (Mobile IP replacement) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-mops/ 9. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: TCP.64 extensions https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-tcp64/ 10. Internet Protocol - Five Fields: UDP https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eromenko-ipff-udp/ Happy new year, and new Internet beginning ! -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" From nobody Sun Jan 3 14:20:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13C51A1A78 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:20:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eEt74Vz6G2yd for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [IPv6:2001:1af8:3100:a006:1::]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14A681A1A77 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f15:8b5:347b:481:ef2c:84db] (global-hq.muada.nl [IPv6:2001:470:1f15:8b5:347b:481:ef2c:84db] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id u03MHCTV075707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Jan 2016 23:17:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 \(3096.5\)) From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 23:20:22 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2638A7CD-E7B5-4CAB-A25B-B2B665681FE8@muada.com> References: To: Alexey Eromenko X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 22:20:49 -0000 Hi Alexey, On 03 Jan 2016, at 14:41, Alexey Eromenko wrote: > Secretly in the shadows, I have been developing a new Internet > Protocol "Five Fields" for quite some time. It is designed to be > superior than both IPv4 and IPv6. And even made a nice presentation > about IP-FF and it's features: I read 13 slides or so, but I hadn't encountered the header diagram yet. The part that bothers me is that you feel the address notation is the = biggest issue. We can fix that without getting rid of IPv6. There's no reason why = 1234.5678.910.1112.1314 can't be an IPv6 address. Just pad the ~ 50 bits = specified with 78 zero bits and you're in business. From nobody Sun Jan 3 14:30:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79341A1A97 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:30:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VFf0nBjrKRy8 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6ABC1A1A90 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 1so94496745ion.1 for ; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=E/Znc77ALXgb5rwmHRLgJO9G4MJm9B9pyAzN56GBeKI=; b=iHw4f9Jx/kE+NMIKegBoFzhBBUYrP/cFcAYPo1vuDm4XO3uowxYapsqZHEHxWVLiYJ /l6uEbN2An6wSh2oICKwkD+CX6xOdfsuorjpZLEqvaF1AZhE8KzGacXFrbVwMojEWZR4 qD01WAbtjBFemayx2BTXh5j7L1D0fdMH6rbpvFHoG7hu6S+Co48kR46d+OWrUKp94kpP u06IB9ruG6hgMSL1fbPttPirzYPLzbCh3twObO11zxm/NtFVpZGRndFGR6KqiD9uV79W BgFU4WhUfxhOznc3yMbH8G942s7HRkY95TtNDZ5IYvx86v5KJtR7q3BTqZrtqTbI7a8b lr3g== X-Received: by 10.107.135.217 with SMTP id r86mr76716778ioi.164.1451860230164; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:30:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2638A7CD-E7B5-4CAB-A25B-B2B665681FE8@muada.com> References: <2638A7CD-E7B5-4CAB-A25B-B2B665681FE8@muada.com> From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 00:30:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 22:30:31 -0000 To save you time: header on slide 18 :) From nobody Sun Jan 3 14:36:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF641A1AA2 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8pexMApPn1B for ; 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Sun, 03 Jan 2016 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:36:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2638A7CD-E7B5-4CAB-A25B-B2B665681FE8@muada.com> From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 00:36:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: Iljitsch van Beijnum , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 22:36:47 -0000 And yes, I have tried to shorten it up. Bad result. Either this funny stuff: READ: A Compact Representation of IPv6 Addresses https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1924.txt -or- 39 decimal digits. No less. From nobody Tue Jan 5 09:51:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4AC1A8ACC for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ru0G6YeWu8J for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from email3-east.aero.org (email3-east.aero.org [130.221.184.167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 476961A8ACB for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:43:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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05 Jan 2016 12:43:49 -0500 Received: from DM2PR09MB0336.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.160.247.153) by DM2PR09MB0334.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.160.247.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.361.13; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:43:47 +0000 Received: from DM2PR09MB0336.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.247.153]) by DM2PR09MB0336.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.247.153]) with mapi id 15.01.0361.006; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:43:47 +0000 From: Theodore V Faber To: Alexey Eromenko , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation Thread-Index: AQHRR+Cg8LKMxZeWvEGb2dy/OZ4grA== Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:43:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=theodore.v.faber@aero.org; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [130.221.224.7] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR09MB0334; H:DM2PR09MB0336.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:3; A:1; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0A76A730775D2140BBD6436DB6E93184@namprd09.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: aero.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Jan 2016 17:43:47.0310 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c8294700-c5a4-4ca1-a876-1457d39899fd X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR09MB0334 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 09:51:23 -0800 Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:43:52 -0000 T24gMS8zLzE2LCAwNTo0MSwgIkFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS1kaXNjdXNzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBBbGV4 ZXkgRXJvbWVua28iDQo8YXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3MtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBi ZWhhbGYgb2YgYWw0MzIxQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCndyb3RlOg0KDQo+SGVsbG8sDQo+DQo+U2VjcmV0 bHkgaW4gdGhlIHNoYWRvd3MsIEkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGRldmVsb3BpbmcgYSBuZXcgSW50ZXJuZXQN Cj5Qcm90b2NvbCAiRml2ZSBGaWVsZHMiIGZvciBxdWl0ZSBzb21lIHRpbWUuIEl0IGlzIGRlc2ln bmVkIHRvIGJlDQo+c3VwZXJpb3IgdGhhbiBib3RoIElQdjQgYW5kIElQdjYuIEFuZCBldmVuIG1h ZGUgYSBuaWNlIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbg0KPmFib3V0IElQLUZGIGFuZCBpdCdzIGZlYXR1cmVzOg0K Pg0KPmh0dHBzOi8vZG9jcy5nb29nbGUuY29tL3ByZXNlbnRhdGlvbi9kLzFYYnFXT3d2MEdBU21T allaaW1mSzY0UUtRUS0weUs5eFExDQo+X3NwUmhsZjhZL2VkaXQ/dXNwPXNoYXJpbmcNCj4NCj5J dCBub3cgY29uc2lzdHMgb2YgMTAgcGFydHM6IChzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYXMgSUVURiBkcmFmdHMpDQo+ DQo+MS4gSW50ZXJuZXQgUHJvdG9jb2wgLSBGaXZlIEZpZWxkczoNCj5odHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFj a2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1lcm9tZW5rby1pcGZmLw0KPg0KDQoNCk1vc3RseSBIYXJt bGVzcy4NCg0KTGV0IHVzIGtub3cgd2hlbiB5b3XigJl2ZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCBzb21ldGhpbmcu DQoNCi0tIA0KVGVkIEZhYmVyIDx0aGVvZG9yZS52LmZhYmVyQGFlcm8ub3JnPg0KRW5naW5lZXJp bmcgU3BlY2lhbGlzdA0KQ29tcHV0ZXIgU3lzdGVtcyBSZXNlYXJjaCBEZXBhcnRtZW50DQozMTAt MzM2LTczNzMNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jan 5 10:13:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A291A8BB7 for ; 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Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:13:54 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:14:01 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> References: To: Theodore V Faber X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1452017634; bh=n9aK1xfteWTM6umN8fKdsskVeGdwTYcWyGg1LNJvAc8=; h=Received:Received:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date: Message-Id:To; b=b1ybBS83DrsCcqsL1RQD+47P/l5eZq3mkhpRx6SAZckM5WN5SDcFe6ilYCAuvy8rA AdATFkpgmU9LWB81qkCTibRpzWmkIs18waRNJ9jD87X9ibq/fnCdaQxrfJPandkWmY L1cwtOKkgNyG7aL7SXCTiYGxPtoxMpN4JSzvBUJT+dnYg5X7boxtNx5uNZDKeaomsx rDqyJ2YCvzRWzwxi4ZaPhdO0gLFNTVCQWR7zLtTKMES/UqHI/VtURYpH+KNQpLAf86 QuUL8AeHvfOQ76S4z/Bbc/b2kaNdh4dLbJC2M/rD0Ng0N4wFHhiFmq/dvfaOZN7aAP 9ookhCOWc7bWQ== Archived-At: Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:13:58 -0000 > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber = wrote: >=20 > Let us know when you=E2=80=99ve implemented something. =E2=80=A6 and when you=E2=80=99ve thought about the routing implications = of your design. Five fields doesn=E2=80=99t not seem to provide boundless scalability in = a hierarchical routing architecture. And to (mis)quote Ross Callon: ~When it comes to architectural = constants, if the number isn=E2=80=99t obviously ample, it=E2=80=99s not = big enough.~ Tony From nobody Tue Jan 5 12:57:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3221B1A9114 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:57:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSY-6ppqFI2v for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D1061A9111 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u05KuPfR016814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:56:26 -0800 (PST) To: Tony Li , Theodore V Faber References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> From: Joe Touch X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 12:56:25 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 20:57:15 -0000 On 1/5/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Li wrote: >> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber wrote: >> > >> > Let us know when you’ve implemented something. > > … and when you’ve thought about the routing implications of your design. ...and when you have a plan for tech transition. It's very easy to redesign any protocol if you ignore the need to support legacy systems. Joe From nobody Thu Jan 7 10:48:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBCA1A92EA for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:48:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JqBb3ngx21Pt for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55D151A92E9 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 10:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 96.21.198.146.dyn.plus.net ([146.198.21.96]:35980 helo=[192.168.0.6]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aHFc8-0007bM-At; Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:48:48 +0000 From: Bob Briscoe To: Alexey Eromenko References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> Message-ID: <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:48:47 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030800080808040109090208" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:48:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030800080808040109090208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alexy, I suspect you are most proud of the fact that you have produced a set of ideas that all work well together. But see inline... On 05/01/16 20:56, Joe Touch wrote: > On 1/5/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Li wrote: >>>> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber wrote: >>>> >>>> Let us know when you’ve implemented something. >> … and when you’ve thought about the routing implications of your design. > ...and when you have a plan for tech transition. > > It's very easy to redesign any protocol if you ignore the need to > support legacy systems. *1. Deployability** * ...I would argue that the value of each part of FF has to be assessed as if that part was separate from the rest, for the reason Joe gives... ...there is little mention or consideration of incremental deployability {note 1} of the whole system, let alone each of the parts (other than the NAT part). But even though the FF system is unlikely to ever be deployable as a whole, it might be possible to modify some of the individual ideas in FF to add incremental deployability, so that the most valuable ideas can become usable individually. *2. Private problem statement?** * The biggest problem with FF is that you have been working on solving a set of problems that few would agree have been articulated as the real underlying problem that needs to be solved. The problem statement is the part that should be done in public, even if you do the design in private. * v6 address space too big - so what? it's more important to agree on any size, than to have the "right" size. * v6 addresses hard to transliterate, read etc - so what? - just a tools problem * mobility without breaking transport - need to solve this without compromising other features like ability to keep ports private. A number of alternative ways already solve this: multipath TCP, or Teemu Koponen et al's "Resilient Connections for SSH and TLS," USENIX Annual Technical Conference * ports at L3 or L4 - Just because ports can be useful at L3, doesn't mean they should be moved to L3. A better answer is "Design for Tussle", ie on the wire it needs to be possible to have ports hidden or not, and everything works (for some definition of "works") whichever way you choose. {note 2} * no ARP - looks useful to replace with an algo. The question then becomes how do you introduce new MAC layer addressing schemes in future - ARP is agnostic to the internal semantics of a L2 address, but an algo cannot be. * stronger L4 checksums - useful, but needs to be considered as part of the bigger problem of L4 extensibility currently being addressed. * IP-VRF - again the problem here is the extensibility architecture of existing IP. We can't keep changing to a completely new Internet Protocol every time we realise we missed an extension we should have thought of. Well it would be worth the change if the new Internet Protocol had a brilliant extensibility architecture... * ...which raises a good question... Where's your extensibility architecture? Should be the first design decision, not the last. I'm trying to be helpful while being critical. Cheers Bob {Note 1} If IPv6 had been proposed today, given how important everyone now knows incremental deployment is, it would have been rejected out of hand. Incremental deployment alongside v4 involved messy dual-stack, gateway and tunnelling additions, rather than incremental deployment intrinsic to the protocol design. And future protocol extensibility proved to be badly architected as well. {Note 2} Ports can be added incrementally to L3, by agreeing/standardising the port fields as a shim betw layers, then altering protocols like IPsec ESP to move the SPI to the same location as the unencrypted ports would be found in. At the same time, the source IP port can be moved to this shim because it is really transport layer info, and the space where it was in the IP header can be used to double the bits for dest addresses (eliding the details on how to identify the different header format). See sourceless network architecture (SNA) from Jon Crowcroft and Marcelo Bagnulo Braun, and see Bryan Ford and Janardhan Iyengar: “Breaking Up the Transport Logjam”, HotNets-VII. > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------030800080808040109090208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alexy,

I suspect you are most proud of the fact that you have produced a set of ideas that all work well together.
But see inline...

On 05/01/16 20:56, Joe Touch wrote:
On 1/5/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Li wrote:

On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber <theodore.v.faber@aero.org> wrote:

Let us know when you’ve implemented something.

… and when you’ve thought about the routing implications of your design.

...and when you have a plan for tech transition.

It's very easy to redesign any protocol if you ignore the need to
support legacy systems.

1. Deployability

...I would argue that the value of each part of FF has to be assessed as if that part was separate from the rest, for the reason Joe gives... ...there is little mention or consideration of incremental deployability {note 1} of the whole system, let alone each of the parts (other than the NAT part).

But even though the FF system is unlikely to ever be deployable as a whole, it might be possible to modify some of the individual ideas in FF to add incremental deployability, so that the most valuable ideas can become usable individually.

2. Private problem statement?

The biggest problem with FF is that you have been working on solving a set of problems that few would agree have been articulated as the real underlying problem that needs to be solved. The problem statement is the part that should be done in public, even if you do the design in private.

* v6 address space too big - so what? it's more important to agree on any size, than to have the "right" size.
* v6 addresses hard to transliterate, read etc - so what? - just a tools problem
* mobility without breaking transport - need to solve this without compromising other features like ability to keep ports private. A number of alternative ways already solve this: multipath TCP, or Teemu Koponen et al's "Resilient Connections for SSH and TLS," USENIX Annual Technical Conference
* ports at L3 or L4 - Just because ports can be useful at L3, doesn't mean they should be moved to L3. A better answer is "Design for Tussle", ie on the wire it needs to be possible to have ports hidden or not, and everything works (for some definition of "works") whichever way you choose. {note 2}
* no ARP - looks useful to replace with an algo. The question then becomes how do you introduce new MAC layer addressing schemes in future - ARP is agnostic to the internal semantics of a L2 address, but an algo cannot be.
* stronger L4 checksums - useful, but needs to be considered as part of the bigger problem of L4 extensibility currently being addressed.
* IP-VRF - again the problem here is the extensibility architecture of existing IP. We can't keep changing to a completely new Internet Protocol every time we realise we missed an extension we should have thought of. Well it would be worth the change if the new Internet Protocol had a brilliant extensibility architecture...
* ...which raises a good question...

Where's your extensibility architecture? Should be the first design decision, not the last.


I'm trying to be helpful while being critical.

Cheers



Bob

{Note 1} If IPv6 had been proposed today, given how important everyone now knows incremental deployment is, it would have been rejected out of hand. Incremental deployment alongside v4 involved messy dual-stack, gateway and tunnelling additions, rather than incremental deployment intrinsic to the protocol design. And future protocol extensibility proved to be badly architected as well.

{Note 2} Ports can be added incrementally to L3, by agreeing/standardising the port fields as a shim betw layers, then altering protocols like IPsec ESP to move the SPI to the same location as the unencrypted ports would be found in. At the same time, the source IP port can be moved to this shim because it is really transport layer info, and the space where it was in the IP header can be used to double the bits for dest addresses (eliding the details on how to identify the different header format). See sourceless network architecture (SNA) from Jon Crowcroft and Marcelo Bagnulo Braun, and see Bryan Ford and Janardhan Iyengar: “Breaking Up the Transport Logjam”, HotNets-VII.


Joe

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________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------030800080808040109090208-- From nobody Thu Jan 7 18:53:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210E11AC44C for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R_zaFTUttFdN for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x234.google.com (mail-ig0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC2C51AC44A for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-x234.google.com with SMTP id ik10so70286143igb.1 for ; Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=zaxcT+9y/+83bh9/JGLp+gKqKTLh39nzTKdirnZj4ss=; b=lER/NEAsfEd/FgrlR+0kPBl2ta/o/XVBXPrEjL3fRm5MM8a5IdF1woW10KRMDsh1hO MU2lDoXoExkb1U/quRleYEk+u1D6C7sG6nSQeeKmrVDtuHeV8ISLhCxORaU5mu5v17Jc butq2n8OLGgKO+nHQ7Rr+tc8aGQIN8blZCygv3rIQaYV4K5IQLFLskyMFuKJlt+G7KsE q3pdFZy8Oku7HqbKC/B0cPrLHjHpw03z2TBL0CcvfsVlFEAwd5iXdgjWhlG2gi6bbjk0 8Umt720Lv53L/uVmyDXO9G8M7AmtHQM/SFRBJVDNlPYIhoksowPJaigTv6idNKIVB2nc 96xQ== X-Received: by 10.50.129.97 with SMTP id nv1mr20346154igb.0.1452221613208; Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:53:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 04:53:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: Bob Briscoe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b41431c64075b0528c9b1b6 Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 02:53:36 -0000 --047d7b41431c64075b0528c9b1b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony Li : Routing is described in [IPFF-ADDRESSING] spec. On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Alexy, > > I suspect you are most proud of the fact that you have produced a set of > ideas that all work well together. > But see inline... > > On 05/01/16 20:56, Joe Touch wrote: > > On 1/5/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Li wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber = wrote: > > Let us know when you=E2=80=99ve implemented something. > > =E2=80=A6 and when you=E2=80=99ve thought about the routing implications = of your design. > > ...and when you have a plan for tech transition. > > It's very easy to redesign any protocol if you ignore the need to > support legacy systems. > > > *1. Deployability* > > ...I would argue that the value of each part of FF has to be assessed as > if that part was separate from the rest, for the reason Joe gives... > ...there is little mention or consideration of incremental deployability > {note 1} of the whole system, let alone each of the parts (other than the > NAT part). > > But even though the FF system is unlikely to ever be deployable as a > whole, it might be possible to modify some of the individual ideas in FF = to > add incremental deployability, so that the most valuable ideas can become > usable individually. > > IPFF-Babysitter (new NAT) solves Deploy-ability problems (for desktops). IPFF private servers will be useful in-house, and IPFF desktops can browse IPv4 Internet. IPFF Internet servers will obviously require new Internet core. (just like IPv6 requires) > *2. Private problem statement?* > > The biggest problem with FF is that you have been working on solving a se= t > of problems that few would agree have been articulated as the real > underlying problem that needs to be solved. The problem statement is the > part that should be done in public, even if you do the design in private. > > * v6 address space too big - so what? it's more important to agree on any > size, than to have the "right" size. > * v6 addresses hard to transliterate, read etc - so what? - just a > tools problem > There are no tools for that. IPv6 is unusable in every way. > * mobility without breaking transport - need to solve this without > compromising other features like ability to keep ports private. A number = of > alternative ways already solve this: multipath TCP, or Teemu Koponen et > al's "Resilient Connections for SSH and TLS," USENIX Annual Technical > Conference > My "Mobile Protocol Stack" works with every Transport Protocol in theory, although my paper describes "Mobile TCP" and "Mobile UDP". > * ports at L3 or L4 - Just because ports can be useful at L3, doesn't mea= n > they should be moved to L3. A better answer is "Design for Tussle", ie on > the wire it needs to be possible to have ports hidden or not, and > everything works (for some definition of "works") whichever way you choos= e. > {note 2} > Ports were moved to layer 3 for fast firewalling and fast Flow-based routing, the latter of which explained in detail. Doing some kind of Layer 3.5 shim will not solve those problems. > * no ARP - looks useful to replace with an algo. The question then become= s > how do you introduce new MAC layer addressing schemes in future - ARP is > agnostic to the internal semantics of a L2 address, but an algo cannot be= . > Right. LARA is specified for Ethernet. Other data links will require other specifications, and I don't mind if some are still using ARP. (Frame-Relay?= ) > * stronger L4 checksums - useful, but needs to be considered as part of > the bigger problem of L4 extensibility currently being addressed. > * IP-VRF - again the problem here is the extensibility architecture of > existing IP. We can't keep changing to a completely new Internet Protocol > every time we realise we missed an extension we should have thought of. > Well it would be worth the change if the new Internet Protocol had a > brilliant extensibility architecture... > * ...which raises a good question... > Where's your extensibility architecture? Should be the first design > decision, not the last. > > You are right. I'm working hard to improve IP-FF extensibility (both L3 [IP options] and L4, [future Transports]), and also working on new Multicast solution. Thanks for link to SNA: Sourceless Network Architecture; I need to study that one. > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > > --=20 -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --047d7b41431c64075b0528c9b1b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony Li=C2=A0<tony.li@tony.li>:

Routing is described in= [IPFF-ADDRESSING] spec.



On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:48= PM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Alexy,

I suspect you are most proud of the fact that you have produced a set of ideas that all work well together.
But see inline...

On 05/01/16 20:56, Joe Touch wrote:
On 1/5/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Li wrote:

On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Theodore V Faber <theodore.v.faber@aero=
.org> wrote:

Let us know when you=E2=80=99ve implemented something.

=E2=80=A6 and when you=E2=80=99ve thought about the routing im=
plications of your design.

...and when you have a plan for tech transition.

It's very easy to redesign any protocol if you ignore the need to
support legacy systems.

1. Deployability

...I would argue that the value of each part of FF has to be assessed as if that part was separate from the rest, for the reason Joe gives... ...there is little mention or consideration of incremental deployability {note 1} of the whole system, let alone each of the parts (other than the NAT part).

But even though the FF system is unlikely to ever be deployable as a whole, it might be possible to modify some of the individual ideas in FF to add incremental deployability, so that the most valuable ideas can become usable individually.


IPFF-Babysitter (new NAT) so= lves=C2=A0Deploy-ability problems (for desktops).
IPFF private se= rvers will be useful in-house, and IPFF desktops can browse IPv4 Internet.<= /div>
IPFF Internet servers will obviously require new Internet core. (= just like IPv6 requires)

=C2=A0
2. Private problem statement?

The biggest problem with FF is that you have been working on solving a set of problems that few would agree have been articulated as the real underlying problem that needs to be solved. The problem statement is the part that should be done in public, even if you do the design in private.

* v6 address space too big - so what? it's more important to agree on any size, than to have the "right" size.
* v6 addresses hard to transliterate, read etc =C2=A0 =C2=A0- so what? = - just a tools problem
There are no tools for that. I= Pv6 is unusable in every way.
=C2=A0
* mobility without breaking transport - need to solve this without compromising other features like ability to keep ports private. A number of alternative ways already solve this: multipath TCP, or Teemu Koponen et al's "Resilient Connections for SSH and TLS,&= quot; USENIX Annual Technical Conference
=C2=A0
My "Mobile Protocol Stack" works with every Transport Pro= tocol in theory, although my paper describes "Mobile TCP" and &qu= ot;Mobile UDP".
=C2=A0
* ports at L3 or L4 - Just because ports can be useful at L3, doesn't mean they should be moved to L3. A better answer is "D= esign for Tussle", ie on the wire it needs to be possible to have ports hidden or not, and everything works (for some definition of "works= ") whichever way you choose. {note 2}
=C2=A0
Ports were moved to layer 3 for fast firewalling and fast Flow-base= d routing, the latter of which explained in detail. Doing some kind of Laye= r 3.5 shim will not solve those problems.
=C2=A0
* no ARP - looks useful to replace with an algo. The question then becomes how do you introduce new MAC layer addressing schemes in future - ARP is agnostic to the internal semantics of a L2 address, but an algo cannot be.
=C2=A0
Righ= t. LARA is specified for Ethernet. Other data links will require other spec= ifications, and I don't mind if some are still using ARP. (Frame-Relay?= )
=C2=A0
* stronger L4 checksums - useful, but needs to be considered as part of the bigger problem of L4 extensibility currently being addressed. * IP-VRF - again the problem here is the extensibility architecture of existing IP. We can't keep changing to a completely new Internet Protocol every time we realise we missed an extension we should have thought of. Well it would be worth the change if the new Internet Protocol had a brilliant extensibility architecture...=C2=A0
* ...which raises a good question...
Where's your extensibil= ity architecture? Should be the first design decision, not the last.
=C2=A0
You are right.

I'm working hard to improve IP-FF extensibility (both L3 [IP opt= ions] and L4, [future Transports]), and also working on new Multicast solut= ion.
=C2=A0
Thanks for link to=C2=A0SNA: Sourceless Net= work Architecture; I need to study that one.

--=20
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/



--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
--047d7b41431c64075b0528c9b1b6-- From nobody Fri Jan 8 05:49:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB401B29D2 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MANGLED_YOUR=2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k9pI2XBf_za3 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from teruel.switch.ch (teruel.switch.ch [IPv6:2001:620:0:1b::28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53FC51B29CB for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from surlej.switch.ch (surlej.switch.ch [IPv6:2001:620:0:1001::69]) by teruel.switch.ch (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id u08DmxAK007544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:49:00 +0100 Received: from [2001:620:0:46:ae87:a3ff:fe13:e5b7] (helo=macsl) by surlej.switch.ch with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1aHXPX-0003Sk-4P; Fri, 08 Jan 2016 14:48:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <22159.48714.504484.955664@switch.ch> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:48:58 +0100 From: Simon Leinen To: Alexey Eromenko In-Reply-To: References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 25.1.50.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin14.5.0) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=2001:620:0:1001::69; country=CH; region=Zurich; city=Zurich; latitude=47.372; longitude=8.5413; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.372,8.5413&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: switch-ch:outbound (inherits from switch-ch:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [arch-d] IPv6 (address) usability and tools [Re: Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields"] (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 13:49:47 -0000 Alexey Eromenko writes: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Bob Briscoe wro= te: > * v6 addresses hard to transliterate, read etc =A0 =A0- so what=3F= - > just a tools problem > There are no tools for that. IPv6 is unusable in every way. No, obviously not in *every* way, since it is being used in the real wo= rld. However, I agree there *are* usability problems, and I found Bob Brisco= e's "so what=3F - just a tools problem" a bit cavalier. (I should say that= this was the only part of Bob's message I have a problem with - overall I fi= nd it extremely well thought through and on the topic.) Of course people can and should use hostnames and not bother with these= addresses at all. Most end users already do. But still, developers an= d operators often use (and, worse, sometimes force other users to use) literal IP addresses. In some cases this is hard to avoid (e.g. an operator debugging a routing issue and looking at prefixes in the routi= ng or BGP table), in other cases I don't quite understand myself why peopl= e use literal addresses when they should be using hostnames. Personally I don't think this is reason enough to throw out IPv6. But we would do well to take this usability problem more seriously. I'= m optimistic that much of this could be addressed, and yes, tools (includ= ing better UIs) will play a major role. So it may well be a tooling problem... but "JUST a tools problem"=3F If tools were an easy problem, shouldn't we have solved it by now=3F I'm not saying that no tools exist (for example, hostnames exist), but there's definitely still a gap in that people find IPv6 hard to use - maybe the tools are there but for some reason they aren't used. Wouldn't (y)our time be better spent working on this: Trying to make th= e fact that IPv6 addresses are "hard to transliterate, read etc" (with wh= ich I agree) less relevant for those who currently feel the pain=3F And who is it who's feeling that pain=3F I'm guessing that many people = who have to configure firewalls and access lists are in that group today. Who else=3F --=20 Simon. From nobody Fri Jan 8 05:52:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F5B1B29D8 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:52:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ySPVoOtaamJ for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com (mail-io0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751731B29D7 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 1so239532943ion.1 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2016 05:52:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=H+QBtWFWGskfQ9Qjeijh8P+MvKOfT93ZF6IbLA12sCU=; b=FGsYZm3rgYsQPtwyKsOXzt28J0trojdmKSo0cjQyAwKpJBR8TsU7IxbnqDgBYwyM+E RVBGmCNocRPmydajw7s9VbfR9qPCmT323/BAJcOK1amYXleAlsyMfHbOkBnpgWopwDdu MpQsYOn0DLnLfAO2snPSmIQ9bigX6iDGl09OH/LGY5aEUfbNWz1RXaQ0/anrWtzubqny BTAUdB7qKJDVb9wDq0ZMg+BTJTsR/lpshYmOe8gT5ygBaQFGhZwvKnSKJwkHMK9+LS6x agPoLeoFWyUx1P1dVaqpL3VGDUlcShPkonlJMAmGe4hrtkTcXV7SHdrViAtUATuji0iw 6/yQ== X-Received: by 10.107.26.129 with SMTP id a123mr32385363ioa.131.1452261150821; Fri, 08 Jan 2016 05:52:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 05:52:11 -0800 (PST) From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:52:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe4be0414130528d2e6c0 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] On the value of ILNP and SNA - is it even needed ? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 13:52:32 -0000 --001a113fe4be0414130528d2e6c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Identifier-Locator Network Protocol; ILNP, as defined in RFCs 6740-48 SNA: Sourceless Network Architecture http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-849.pdf I have read those papers. The idea looks an interesting one, but why should those protocols use a bigger Layer 3 packet, and send "Identifier" in every packet? Isn't it better and easier to just do all of this at Layer 4, like SCTP or Multipath TCP do ? The advantage is that this reduces overhead, because at Transport Layer those IDs are transferred only during session establishment phase, as opposed to every packet. It looks to me, that the whole "Identifier" idea is really a "Transport Layer" concept (with end-to-end meaning). -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --001a113fe4be0414130528d2e6c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Identifier-Locator Network Protocol;=C2=A0

ILNP, as defined in = RFCs 6740-48

SNA: Sourceless Network Architecture
<= div>http= ://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-849.pdf

=
I have read those papers.
The idea looks an interesting one,= but why should those protocols use a bigger Layer 3 packet, and send "= ;Identifier" in every packet?

Isn't it be= tter and easier to just do all of this at Layer 4, like SCTP or Multipath T= CP do ?
The advantage is that this reduces overhead, because at T= ransport Layer those IDs are transferred only during session establishment = phase, as opposed to every packet.
It looks to me, that the w= hole "Identifier" idea is really a "Transport Layer" co= ncept (with end-to-end meaning).

--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
--001a113fe4be0414130528d2e6c0-- From nobody Fri Jan 8 06:02:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FD81B29E4 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:02:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_YOUR=2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id riN148OG8nkX for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B09E61B29E2 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id z14so75692870igp.0 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2016 06:02:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=T6t6/9H2P6dwbdi2+ms+UlXdVnR7EeNRtSva1ZLQ7fo=; b=SvLk1Iaajndw0a9VtimqI2U09syNeNQpvRcp+D8/Z0ikl49wR63Bm6w36M4tBKDf0L 3Sql/3vl9EXZxuTR93SI4y4ClXpmyhvEWdEKu4sjQ1lrPyeQMqXHdxK4jntke0tvUS2+ U9miDDW6HeNnhJWKDxEFXHITJUDio211n4jWMYqoIqdPIYaoQleIEraRSS/BAEoQ8cgE KQHo34paTofI4enFDxMKNpRUSoK0ILtn+yquB63Lk5lndASD/DbV3rbGlaSwMyD+YcQt DbNUCdL9tKZc+8MhRIAzw+CKcR2NLEqMiMCom+jC0JPeUI5I7jBUYXjcS3q4dZJHsACw l9GQ== X-Received: by 10.50.155.102 with SMTP id vv6mr22946216igb.0.1452261723046; Fri, 08 Jan 2016 06:02:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <22159.48714.504484.955664@switch.ch> References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> <22159.48714.504484.955664@switch.ch> From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 16:01:43 +0200 Message-ID: To: Simon Leinen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11347d9a1fa4c90528d308f1 Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] IPv6 (address) usability and tools [Re: Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields"] (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 14:02:05 -0000 --001a11347d9a1fa4c90528d308f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > Wouldn't (y)our time be better spent working on this: Trying to make the > fact that IPv6 addresses are "hard to transliterate, read etc" (with which I agree) less relevant for those who currently feel the pain? > > I don't see a solution to this problem. > And who is it who's feeling that pain? I'm guessing that many people who > have to configure firewalls and access lists are in that group today. > Who else? > Debugging stuff is slow with IPv6. This includes quick comparison of addresses, of host portion and of network portion of two (or more) source or destination addresses. In IPv4, it is possible to visualize (average sized, corporate) network in human brain. Network consists not only of nodes (which DNS can fix), but also of address ranges, multicast addresses, subnets, etc... -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --001a11347d9a1fa4c90528d308f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wouldn't (y)our time be better spent working on this: Trying to make th= e
fact that IPv6 addresses are "hard to transliterate, read etc" (w= ith which=C2=A0
I agree) less re= levant for those who currently feel the pain?

I don't see a solution to this problem.
=C2=A0
And who is it who's feeling that pain? I'm guessing that many peopl= e who
have to configure firewalls and access lists are in that group today.
Who else?

Debugging stuff is slow with = IPv6. This includes quick comparison of addresses, of host portion and of n= etwork portion of two (or more) source or destination addresses.
= In IPv4, it is possible to visualize (average sized, corporate) network in = human brain.
Network consists not only of nodes (which DNS ca= n fix), but also of address ranges, multicast addresses, subnets, etc...

--=C2=A0
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
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cwh16.canadianwebhosting.com[64.34.111.205] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1452262471 X-Barracuda-URL: https://64.34.111.239:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-Scan-Msg-Size: 26343 X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at idig.net X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.22 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.22 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=3.5 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SH_BIG5_05413_BODY_104 X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.25952 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.21 SH_BIG5_05413_BODY_104 BODY: Body: contain "UNSUBSCRIBE" 0.00 MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR URI: Includes a link to a likely spammer email 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Architecture-discuss Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list 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KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKjxicj48L2JvZHk+ ----_com.android.email_151846482645130-- From nobody Fri Jan 8 06:27:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A405F1A89E9 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:27:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, MANGLED_YOUR=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLaVGaMeGrlO for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from barmail6.idig.net (barmail6.idig.net [64.34.111.239]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A1F1A89F6 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 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dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS1kaXNjdXNzPGJyPjxicj48 YnI+LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tPGJyPjxicj5FbmQgb2YgQXJjaGl0ZWN0 dXJlLWRpc2N1c3MgRGlnZXN0LCBWb2wgMzAsIElzc3VlIDc8YnI+KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqPGJyPjwvYm9keT4= ----_com.android.email_153298849109020-- From nobody Fri Jan 8 06:38:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452A31A89F1 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gILquxRuGlwT for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (sequoia.muada.com [IPv6:2001:1af8:3100:a006:1::]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 339AE1A89E9 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f15:8b5:3094:6c1:ff44:e62] (global-hq.muada.nl [IPv6:2001:470:1f15:8b5:3094:6c1:ff44:e62] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id u08EY3Ew050127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:34:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 \(3096.5\)) From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:37:02 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> <22159.48714.504484.955664@switch.ch> To: Alexey Eromenko X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] IPv6 (address) usability and tools [Re: Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields"] (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 14:38:11 -0000 On 08 Jan 2016, at 15:01, Alexey Eromenko wrote: > Debugging stuff is slow with IPv6. This includes quick comparison of = addresses, of host portion and of network portion of two (or more) = source or destination addresses. > In IPv4, it is possible to visualize (average sized, corporate) = network in human brain. Untrue. With IPv6 things are super easy: you get a /48, put your VLAN ID in the = subnet bits and /64 per subnet. Easy peasy. With IPv4 when you go beyond mod 2^8 subnet sizes you need to convert = between decimal and binary and do bitmask operations in your head. From nobody Fri Jan 8 06:40:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA83F1A8A13 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0tpnRwRGu4IH for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3256C1A8A03 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 606CF2801B7; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:40:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B13B280181; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:40:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:1348:7::86:133]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2674C0049; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:40:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:40:21 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Alexey Eromenko Message-ID: <20160108144021.GA22959@nic.fr> References: <9020D012-C361-45E2-9C31-B39E852E239B@tony.li> <568C2DF9.2060003@isi.edu> <568EB30F.5050803@bobbriscoe.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux stretch/sid X-Kernel: Linux 4.3.0-1-686-pae i686 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Development of Internet Protocol "Five Fields" (IP-FF): Presentation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 14:40:54 -0000 On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 04:53:13AM +0200, Alexey Eromenko wrote a message of 323 lines which said: > There are no tools for that. IPv6 is unusable in every way. OK, my employer uses IPv6 in production for more than ten years. We have probably been dreaming during this time. That's why I do not intend to spend time on Five Fields: you pretend to solve a problem... that nobody else has. From nobody Mon Jan 18 07:11:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86DF1B382A for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOZADSasuBFc for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 627F71B3802 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g73so359702284ioe.3 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=pfe66keEes/SHr2kAHKmUnfPcSbo/yo+00vVw3T2PXA=; b=Y31HgSAX1ktLXFMLOytXg1jpBKFHKk/Y3SQe/s8EpBip/Aqxl49UVBNx1IivK4TJnS V/DScpulUbzCOpOaWajTP7oMNx2UipVnbtkedkxzsHwNuz4muCNlxXsfISfFJFB6+EGA KcFmA1trBU/fd2glaNAKuIXTgtI8osq5ZWNvfGepZdnLGbYG7hztBLzoM0Cp2k7lgMSb 5BTXRYqpqJF1o8XjmMSbHnVAqaHShf2YXnSo4guOk9YEmcD5n4Ay4XTTM8doPdCmCuCI tlJVZgzwrgQVApRx7PoZhrdQsXRPBrvESfVHsSbpbIKXzEU0T4GGIeZyCtJR6IBlJS2c WQ4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=pfe66keEes/SHr2kAHKmUnfPcSbo/yo+00vVw3T2PXA=; b=QYzobKOKIlj4zFe/b+dBkmEG8+A4Y+WVdR+jQu3Gz8xUw/lN/dwBGzX9MhLmTu+Ldd 6dg2I3sP6fR2zOXzphFfLUcI4MKSD1y0Iik9PKwTaQLwezCkHsSoVdKO6Mg/f8ztvBDQ 5p36GFC0Ewtqq9RNk75mvWppXd/agN8G7eP+MaJJt1Z+Z1hzXakHj2j7hrY/xvedwN2P tjfa6rTQTpWFQW1czpw8MdOLUQ/YXr0V8me9exzEE9gSKg4JwfPyGndjGCxBItPMsn8m 74tDYo9tw7h0J+f9x9iuWHlqsf2TvQtG6s9ubU/fq6hYBvfK0kkh1ITmjjNK67dZ4IAP C5RQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlXVcnN7k12RoLVUF5Aw5ADZJ2Rw6yxFQJNrUj2cQ3MTPP8vwUqKqO6BGPtaG5oCZQ90l5/B1usQkDbT2jWtS69Me/OyA== X-Received: by 10.107.26.129 with SMTP id a123mr25798110ioa.131.1453129886870; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.136.194 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:11:07 -0800 (PST) From: Alexey Eromenko Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 17:11:07 +0200 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe4beb8302a05299d2a70 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Hybrid UniMulticast Routing research : reasonable approach ? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:11:28 -0000 --001a113fe4beb8302a05299d2a70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Rex Buddenberg, rightfully complained, that I don't offer any Multicast innovation in my IP-FF protocol stack. IP-FF is not just a copy-paste on existing TCP/IP ideas, but it is an innovation attempt across all the Internet stack, where I attempt to improve the Internet at various places, and see what sticks. After some Multicast research, I have came out with a very different approach. Not even close to traditional Multicast. Hybrid Unicast + Multicast routing, called UniMulticast Routing. That is: if a destination is visible in Multicast Routing table, it is routed using Multicast approach, but if it is not in routing table, then it is routing using Unicast. This implies, that we need source address and two (!) destination addresses in IP header: Multicast group address as well as Unicast address. Group address can be sent inside IP options. This new approach requires some new protocols: namely IGMPv4, and Enhanced PIM to work. Here is my new research paper on this approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NbDEaItYCrVNgYwOsNF6cps7dCO_VgLzb9bWLxXu3b0/edit?usp=sharing It is incomplete, but gives a rough idea on my approach. Is this reasonable ? -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --001a113fe4beb8302a05299d2a70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rex Buddenberg, rightfully complaine= d, that I don't offer any Multicast innovation in my IP-FF protocol sta= ck.

IP-FF is not just a copy-paste on existing TCP/IP ideas, but it is = an innovation attempt across all the Internet stack,
where I atte= mpt to improve the Internet at various places, and see what sticks.

After some Multicast research, I have came out with = a very different approach. Not even close to traditional Multicast.
Hybrid Unicast + Multicast routing, called UniMulticast Routing.

That is: if a destination is visible in Multicast Routing= table, it is routed using Multicast approach, but if it is not in routing = table, then it is routing using Unicast. This implies, that we need source = address and two (!) destination addresses in IP header:
Multicast= group address as well as Unicast address. Group address can be sent inside= IP options.

This new approach requires some new p= rotocols: namely IGMPv4, and Enhanced PIM to work.

Here is my new research paper on this approach:
=

It is incomplete, but gives a rough idea on my approach= .

Is this reasonable ?
--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov&quo= t;
--001a113fe4beb8302a05299d2a70--