From nobody Wed Feb 1 11:26:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1E71294E6 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 11:26:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TdXWrRibvVpB for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 11:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x241.google.com (mail-io0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D6D4129552 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 11:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x241.google.com with SMTP id 101so21951846iom.0 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:26:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AA0bR2ftwOr0zM3nZ2dBwGp70/rtL8YWRXEJsvmCtIU=; b=kQCA/KUl0BwpvHLz6i3Y1JsFJeJwI/12HaIzKhU9BP2oSFOMhso6Z6W66kePJsxStI QQtGtlzdg07A+75IpWVCpWMvSqKRC/4o1ozjvQhT/GxSjyFwtr2/Q2irEF+assIGpPGB e2osy4GAl74s//Uj0XL5OM8Ar2VZatY7xkLkZ1EfCpBBGVrtIofiL6+P+6Ey15fxsGKv bctgn9OBA9dKYwYbNF2LLm2UPz205JJqTKZAenzgdF2ucgWXEXPOm02lUgFa8Jk/Kq9V HKk0ajB7ym6kwkBHqlvSY0hRneWaKT2eXsyIO2ERsPABme5iexq+L/v5Btf5niIuS4gp f34A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AA0bR2ftwOr0zM3nZ2dBwGp70/rtL8YWRXEJsvmCtIU=; b=ifh9aG8SHZf94uCCk8jy2syId1DkUjkZUktKcZEfHlH8hofOsHfHQgqTNqEpdnxH4Q rsp5ajQ2OU4JXlLmNDNtmoDxEIYepFpAhf/YjfoGVesCj8F5MFPmdWfbw/EAwUgIAYZN FwlVWxq+3K82VipJwzeRK8NDd6wYTq+XP8nsgRE44sPwcHSXk/2Zv1ufacyB8pXtFAXn YdR3/PHWU9os6bZe9KUjMTpiTNoTV6f6Cr6ZKoq+AditdAMfm9isM6NNLAmZf4SXjtdL wBtQ/y4aPBd2hhR9sSyBlF7EzNwA0nwXL5EO56v6/zQrpD9nFFnptjrq0KrcRfrY6T2F zItQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIG3Gu27+wbWgRkJMSvFHgaHzquUxYu2BGA22uk2i277HCUyy4x7/rEWQIqAK9ACmfu0myFekuZSsBCDg== X-Received: by 10.107.141.80 with SMTP id p77mr3687661iod.97.1485977208248; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:26:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.41.72 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 11:26:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a89e3c6-730a-3d35-6cb9-2d9425e400c7@rfc-editor.org> References: <20170127040607.77613.qmail@ary.lan> <2a89e3c6-730a-3d35-6cb9-2d9425e400c7@rfc-editor.org> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 14:26:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" , IAB IAB , John Levine , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] [rfc-i] [IAB] Fwd: Call for Comment: (Digital Preservation Considerations for the RFC Series) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 19:26:52 -0000 I agree with John Levine. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote: > On 1/26/17 8:06 PM, John Levine wrote: >>> Abstract >>> >>> The RFC Editor is both the publisher and the archivist for the RFC >>> Series. This document applies specifically to the archivist role of >>> the RFC Editor. It provides guidance on when and how to preserve >>> RFCs, and the tools required to view or re-create RFCs as necessary. >>> This document also highlights where gaps are in the current process, >>> and where compromises are suggested to balance cost with ideal best >>> practice. >> I'm generally in agreement with the advice in this draft, except for >> the parts about paper. >> >> We know that good quality paper with black ink is stable for >> centuries, because we have books from the 1700s and earlier in >> libraries that we can still read. I also know a surprising number of >> people doing retrocomputing who retype source code from old printouts >> from the 1960s. After 50 years, the electronic media are missing or >> unreadable, but the printouts are still OK. >> >> So I would suggest printing out the XML and perhaps one of the >> formatted versions (so they can see what the XML is supposed to say) >> of RFCs on good paper and filing them away. I think we can assume >> that OCR in the future will be at least as good as it is now, so as >> long as the printouts use a reasonable typeface, it'll be possible to >> scan them in if need be. It doesn't have to be in real time; a >> printathon once or twice a year should be plenty. >> > > Thank you for the feedback, John. Paper can indeed be a very stable > material for archival purposes. For digital-born documents, I think it's > insufficient for the purpose of archiving all the information intended > to be captured with a digital document and leaving it readable for the > future. Yes, information can be printed out that describes the metadata > for the document. The XML is human readable, in that it is not encrypted > or compiled in any way that a standard text reader and printer couldn't > handle. However, all that readable-but-not-user-friendly paper takes up > space and requires its own expertise to store and maintain in a properly > archival fashion. The RFC Editor does not have that experience, nor the > proper space, to store an ever growing body of work. We could of course > work on that, buying the correct paper and ink, reprinting all the RFCs, > and finding suitable climate (both humidity and temperature, with > appropriate fire suppression) controlled storage to house the material. > But that seems like a waste of resources when there are actual > archivists who can and will handle our material properly, in its digital > form. > > That said, of the archivists I've approached about the Series, the only > paper of interest is the original set that has unique, hand-written > annotations in the margins. All the newer documents are only interesting > in their digital form. The content is still interesting, but it takes up > much less physical space, and they have the processes in house for > handling the issues of bit rot. They also expect to support the > readability of the material (since we are using common publication > formats) far into the future. > > > Thanks, > Heather > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest From nobody Wed Feb 1 13:37:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959831293F0 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:37:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.199, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pQ6FR9hyRy61 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nm45-vm8.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm45-vm8.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.115.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48EB4129446 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:37:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1485985036; bh=ILXaSkGm0TSWb1bBRrHLi6VP6ha76K2aRQi/t0YZWss=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=icIAM652TlCB7RNBIG9wiZq7d1rnbnM59qB4we1cduHIlIvSw2hJ4T6JnU7kSnBKY1Z4Fx4H67voKMQFrZMmlycE6R+ZbdkiAaGpy6GgsR8Fp2gbP5I/yvmOOxaBmBhb5XoK/+/yPtRLQmA93i3zjRhyx7LnJEjb5VxFVFoHLruaoKZnJ9xFjQz+eI07cfzb/wJ6Zfa5fPeIXPcvADUTHiT5ylCLYqJMKJxlDL2qJUhyk/IYS80fq3Ppyb7/oj6K/CHWT/CdcEvgt2Ilr6BlvH1XpUzYPOSSF4z4bLsrbDE6DRcV9xRCvfAGL/g+w2Yy2im2ArTqsatg7RRkvDzsdw== Received: from [98.139.215.140] by nm45.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2017 21:37:16 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.201] by tm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2017 21:37:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2017 21:37:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 323594.42892.bm@omp1010.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: Ia8ZaMAVM1kQN2zKKfRLOayOOmSjG28497WHrNacbcu5fhFX7ZOz2WkUuSU61Xw jtfXTaQYKQsVcYZ.k.rvRSeWEpf5QYCWR7yPJAAz6kmDNzqAC_bZLkqrqXtgKuNgdY7McDFEzkma qk3FTaeCsmJJQuTZ1Mgo2Q.GRMLz4G3cqMowUdhr6Vfg9cSYBmIzQSokvDnqniqy1ddNVuW8UGNf dwlmp.Md946rRZVlAUXrGf1OCSKkBWkRt2_aEPpP4F5BEkWzPr7YeIrSknB0pcHmYXh.7WtjRRQe RXt6bQmKg4yaxb_y7C0yR4pRJ3cx7jubDRlAMru0puwziWpMLXVl8iVlKGehe7IwaJDy8ebIeAcb WIq_zBESH7BTFCd3rJcgUWKxmwBWyAno_1GwVlsnQG1ulmfeysYJSWukWTbtYni0diZJ.EetXCgo PQ48yv6JTlKRb69c89tdIuhhEsW28.t7jUbEWD28Xu1zd_.iR7w6OTgCoGCqcAHHBLJtZxBtfgl8 eU4wMNdvzfLOSQypPEoiX Received: from jws400085.mail.bf2.yahoo.com by sendmailws132.mail.bf1.yahoo.com; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:37:15 +0000; 1485985035.941 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:37:12 +0000 (UTC) From: David Barak To: Donald Eastlake , "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" Message-ID: <1735879785.3831044.1485985032686@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20170127040607.77613.qmail@ary.lan> <2a89e3c6-730a-3d35-6cb9-2d9425e400c7@rfc-editor.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3831043_1926467354.1485985032684" Archived-At: Cc: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" , IAB IAB , John Levine , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] [rfc-i] [IAB] Fwd: Call for Comment: (Digital Preservation Considerations for the RFC Series) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Barak List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:37:20 -0000 ------=_Part_3831043_1926467354.1485985032684 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used to be a collections management historian for the HABS/HAER project, = and that role was about ensuring archival stability of records.=C2=A0 The o= nly media which were deemed stable at the time were paper (500 years) ink-o= n-vellum (200 years), black& white photographs (150 years) and color transp= arencies (75 years).=C2=A0 No other medium was deemed stable for more than = about 20years.=C2=A0 I would advocate for using stable paper as the primary= archival means of retaining the content for the long term - records can be= re-digitized via new technology in a straightforward manner, but digital a= ccess can be easily lost in unrecoverable manners. Creating stable paper records is neither difficult nor expensive, and the a= ctual volume of all of the RFCs is not large relative to other paper collec= tions.=C2=A0David Barak=20 Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise:=20 http://www.cdbaby.com/all/thefranchise=20 On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:27 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: =20 I agree with John Levine. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote: > On 1/26/17 8:06 PM, John Levine wrote: >>> Abstract >>> >>>=C2=A0 The RFC Editor is both the publisher and the archivist for the RF= C >>>=C2=A0 Series.=C2=A0 This document applies specifically to the archivist= role of >>>=C2=A0 the RFC Editor.=C2=A0 It provides guidance on when and how to pre= serve >>>=C2=A0 RFCs, and the tools required to view or re-create RFCs as necessa= ry. >>>=C2=A0 This document also highlights where gaps are in the current proce= ss, >>>=C2=A0 and where compromises are suggested to balance cost with ideal be= st >>>=C2=A0 practice. >> I'm generally in agreement with the advice in this draft, except for >> the parts about paper. >> >> We know that good quality paper with black ink is stable for >> centuries, because we have books from the 1700s and earlier in >> libraries that we can still read.=C2=A0 I also know a surprising number = of >> people doing retrocomputing who retype source code from old printouts >> from the 1960s.=C2=A0 After 50 years, the electronic media are missing o= r >> unreadable, but the printouts are still OK. >> >> So I would suggest printing out the XML and perhaps one of the >> formatted versions (so they can see what the XML is supposed to say) >> of RFCs on good paper and filing them away.=C2=A0 I think we can assume >> that OCR in the future will be at least as good as it is now, so as >> long as the printouts use a reasonable typeface, it'll be possible to >> scan them in if need be.=C2=A0 It doesn't have to be in real time; a >> printathon once or twice a year should be plenty. >> > > Thank you for the feedback, John. Paper can indeed be a very stable > material for archival purposes. For digital-born documents, I think it's > insufficient for the purpose of archiving all the information intended > to be captured with a digital document and leaving it readable for the > future. Yes, information can be printed out that describes the metadata > for the document. The XML is human readable, in that it is not encrypted > or compiled in any way that a standard text reader and printer couldn't > handle. However, all that readable-but-not-user-friendly paper takes up > space and requires its own expertise to store and maintain in a properly > archival fashion. The RFC Editor does not have that experience, nor the > proper space, to store an ever growing body of work. We could of course > work on that, buying the correct paper and ink, reprinting all the RFCs, > and finding suitable climate (both humidity and temperature, with > appropriate fire suppression) controlled storage to house the material. > But that seems like a waste of resources when there are actual > archivists who can and will handle our material properly, in its digital > form. > > That said, of the archivists I've approached about the Series, the only > paper of interest is the original set that has unique, hand-written > annotations in the margins. All the newer documents are only interesting > in their digital form. The content is still interesting, but it takes up > much less physical space, and they have the processes in house for > handling the issues of bit rot. They also expect to support the > readability of the material (since we are using common publication > formats) far into the future. > > > Thanks, > Heather > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest _______________________________________________ Architecture-discuss mailing list Architecture-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss =20 ------=_Part_3831043_1926467354.1485985032684 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I used to be a collections management historian for the HABS/HA= ER project, and that role was about ensuring archival stability of records.=   The only media which were deemed stable at the time were paper (500 = years) ink-on-vellum (200 years), black& white photographs (150 years) = and color transparencies (75 years).  No other medium was deemed stabl= e for more than about 20years.  I would advocate for using stable pape= r as the primary archival means of retaining the content for the long term = - records can be re-digitized via new technology in a straightforward manne= r, but digital access can be easily lost in unrecoverable manners.
Creating stable paper records is neither= difficult nor expensive, and the actual volume of all of the RFCs is not l= arge relative to other paper collections.
 
David Barak
Need Geek Rock? Try = The Franchise:
http://www.cdbaby.com/all/thefranchise


On Wedne= sday, February 1, 2017 11:27 AM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> w= rote:


I agree wit= h John Levine.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Donald = E. Eastlake 3rd  +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
155 Beaver= Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
d3e3e3@gmail.= com


On Tue, Jan= 31, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
<rse@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
&= gt; On 1/26/17 8:06 PM, John Levine wrote:
>>> A= bstract
>>>
>>> = The RFC Editor is both the publisher and the archivist for the RFC
>>>  Series.  This document applies specifi= cally to the archivist role of
>>>  the RF= C Editor.  It provides guidance on when and how to preserve
>>>  RFCs, and the tools required to view or re-cr= eate RFCs as necessary.
>>>  This document= also highlights where gaps are in the current process,
&= gt;>>  and where compromises are suggested to balance cost with= ideal best
>>>  practice.
>> I'm generally in agreement with the advice in this draft, excep= t for
>> the parts about paper.
&= gt;>
>> We know that good quality paper with bla= ck ink is stable for
>> centuries, because we have = books from the 1700s and earlier in
>> libraries th= at we can still read.  I also know a surprising number of
>> people doing retrocomputing who retype source code from old = printouts
>> from the 1960s.  After 50 years, = the electronic media are missing or
>> unreadable, = but the printouts are still OK.
>>
>> So I would suggest printing out the XML and perhaps one of the>> formatted versions (so they can see what the XML = is supposed to say)
>> of RFCs on good paper and fi= ling them away.  I think we can assume
>> that= OCR in the future will be at least as good as it is now, so as
>> long as the printouts use a reasonable typeface, it'll be p= ossible to
>> scan them in if need be.  It doe= sn't have to be in real time; a
>> printathon once = or twice a year should be plenty.
>>
>
> Thank you for the feedback, John. Paper can= indeed be a very stable
> material for archival purpo= ses. For digital-born documents, I think it's
> insuff= icient for the purpose of archiving all the information intended
> to be captured with a digital document and leaving it readab= le for the
> future. Yes, information can be printed o= ut that describes the metadata
> for the document. The= XML is human readable, in that it is not encrypted
> = or compiled in any way that a standard text reader and printer couldn't
> handle. However, all that readable-but-not-user-friendl= y paper takes up
> space and requires its own expertis= e to store and maintain in a properly
> archival fashi= on. The RFC Editor does not have that experience, nor the
> proper space, to store an ever growing body of work. We could of cour= se
> work on that, buying the correct paper and ink, r= eprinting all the RFCs,
> and finding suitable climate= (both humidity and temperature, with
> appropriate fi= re suppression) controlled storage to house the material.
> But that seems like a waste of resources when there are actual
> archivists who can and will handle our material properly, = in its digital
> form.
>
> That said, of the archivists I've approached about the Serie= s, the only
> paper of interest is the original set th= at has unique, hand-written
> annotations in the margi= ns. All the newer documents are only interesting
> in = their digital form. The content is still interesting, but it takes up
> much less physical space, and they have the processes in = house for
> handling the issues of bit rot. They also = expect to support the
> readability of the material (s= ince we are using common publication
> formats) far in= to the future.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Heather
>
>
>
> __________= _____________________________________
> rfc-interest m= ailing list
> rfc-in= terest@rfc-editor.org
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest


____= ___________________________________________
Architecture-= discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss


------=_Part_3831043_1926467354.1485985032684-- From nobody Fri Feb 3 10:56:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A17129496 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=adobe.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y8BTdhg6Ia4q for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01on0089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.34.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2732D129498 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:56:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=adobe.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=j2crK0Cz0z1n49M7eCOZXPZe9oERf+kCPDdGFXVs3Ao=; b=dX1ergEHYoM0sPCjYs9Z0lAR4zO46ti1vspkryijYP6OqdzPaYVw9RCMotDNa58ar/WIVqaGeBBfJ3r5+SSlz91DRh3bJ69EUqqvMdB3CRxwGf8XyS4uX+0t5rDYn/yiYw61m0QVaRcI9JRw2qw5NAJCbuDgVlWSmj9/UnOQuWY= Received: from BLUPR0201MB1522.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.163.119.21) by BLUPR0201MB1522.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.163.119.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.874.12; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 18:56:35 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0201MB1522.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.119.21]) by BLUPR0201MB1522.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.119.21]) with mapi id 15.01.0874.024; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 18:56:35 +0000 From: Larry Masinter To: David Barak , Donald Eastlake , "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] [arch-d] [IAB] Fwd: Call for Comment: (Digital Preservation Considerations for the RFC Series) Thread-Index: AQHSfXGe1FMlkNZoLEyXmHpvYryVyaFXmqlg Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 18:56:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170127040607.77613.qmail@ary.lan> <2a89e3c6-730a-3d35-6cb9-2d9425e400c7@rfc-editor.org> <1735879785.3831044.1485985032686@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1735879785.3831044.1485985032686@mail.yahoo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=masinter@adobe.com; x-originating-ip: [50.184.24.49] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7359d729-5796-43f8-8182-08d44c66603a x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(48565401081); SRVR:BLUPR0201MB1522; x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0201MB1522; 7:5yHO1oHllDIlWHgzOaGjkhvKA9yXvXLcrsAFOdOvxZLwlh4sbjhqSGdk1HDdtgptpXGGlbD8Q9WaGVochQ8wWLNnvcKFTamN7oDZGKh3c66OXRO5DKPsXbuB36KbtGyfOyx0CwyYt7gEzq7Bd2lZte8ISapGSXhGr4AqenSJh54fI/cs5e8dStBQH296ignAdwrp94MYVWIoy0nyHRDNR9Fk7+f5zWbNltzb+cKFTTQnG/NhnGLyGdD+HCFNlycTM88JwidE9D9UlFG6g8utORSJ+4KZcOWHZL4bORYqJY2WDGd4LHx25Gq+QX0BPGsWxau2iiZ115ILN5APE4btu2XODYekEXF+O2wb+GSf2CnJD5OPGl6KAJQvFnk8TIETlrEwDzYk1AT5n1OOUbuM69e2+OM5NIzeh9L+DFyGtcNLr5ywIeaeaEg+TQMkRfhbvJJphN0nK+ltJmFYd9lWy192RfRXGVa/zc/KHBvaY7SQrYQ7bX6Q6OPELSqBxjj8tV7tKcx1mBoYh11ysQdErw==; 20:FBH2R4Bs5iilj43VXnGoBqk25jS/rqgCjdN5BSwB6H3HkIWYMlaxV33unnMq97SOIsx4RXEXx4i2GdNx3S7vv/+gvkinmVNQmFHVTguuSgqhELVavEnVAOSKmDlpQDxGRMELmR2n4xlG+p8GVolT2GwWo8/bVE1om8yNqYWzmWk= x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(21748063052155); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6041248)(20161123564025)(20161123560025)(20161123555025)(20161123558025)(20161123562025)(6072148); SRVR:BLUPR0201MB1522; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0201MB1522; x-forefront-prvs: 02070414A1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(7916002)(39850400002)(39410400002)(39860400002)(39450400003)(39840400002)(199003)(189002)(7906003)(236005)(7736002)(9686003)(790700001)(54896002)(2900100001)(33656002)(101416001)(54906002)(99286003)(55016002)(76176999)(6506006)(6246003)(6306002)(3660700001)(92566002)(6116002)(39060400001)(7696004)(25786008)(2521001)(230783001)(19273905006)(6436002)(606005)(86362001)(3846002)(2950100002)(93886004)(74316002)(102836003)(77096006)(8936002)(38730400001)(4326007)(2906002)(106116001)(15395725005)(122556002)(81156014)(8676002)(81166006)(106356001)(189998001)(3280700002)(105586002)(229853002)(53936002)(5001770100001)(50986999)(54356999)(10090500001)(5660300001)(19609705001)(97736004)(66066001)(8990500004)(966004)(68736007)(562404015)(563064011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0201MB1522; H:BLUPR0201MB1522.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: adobe.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BLUPR0201MB152207480F569220EFD675EAC34F0BLUPR0201MB1522_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Feb 2017 18:56:34.7672 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: fa7b1b5a-7b34-4387-94ae-d2c178decee1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0201MB1522 Archived-At: Cc: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" , IAB IAB , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] [rfc-i] [IAB] Fwd: Call for Comment: (Digital Preservation Considerations for the RFC Series) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 18:56:39 -0000 --_000_BLUPR0201MB152207480F569220EFD675EAC34F0BLUPR0201MB1522_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UkZDIDc5OTUgY2FsbHMgZm9yIHVzZSBvZiBQREYvQS0zLCB3aGljaCB3YXMgZGVzaWduZWQgZm9y IGxvbmctdGVybSBwcmVzZXJ2YXRpb24uDQrigJxQREYgZm9yIExvbmctdGVybSBQcmVzZXJ2YXRp b24sIFVzZSBvZiBJU08tMzIwMDAtMSwgV2l0aCBFbWJlZGRlZCBGaWxlc+KAnQ0KV2l0aCB0aGUg WE1MIGVtYmVkZGVkLg0KDQpJ4oCZbSBub3QgYW4gYXJjaGl2aXN0IGJ1dCBJIHBsYXllZCBvbmUs ICB2aXogaHR0cDovL2xhcnJ5bWFzaW50ZXIubmV0LzA2MDMtYXJjaGl2aW5nLnBkZg0KaHR0cDov L3d3dy5kaWdpdGFscHJlc2VydmF0aW9uLmdvdi9mb3JtYXRzL2ludHJvL2ludHJvLnNodG1sDQoN CkxhcnJ5DQoNCg== --_000_BLUPR0201MB152207480F569220EFD675EAC34F0BLUPR0201MB1522_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbWJyaWEgTWF0aCI7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMyA1IDQgNiAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1m YWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmk7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiAxNSA1IDIgMiAyIDQgMyAy IDQ7fQ0KLyogU3R5bGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCnAuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBsaS5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGRpdi5Nc29Ob3JtYWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luOjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiVGltZXMgTmV3IFJvbWFuIixzZXJpZjt9 DQphOmxpbmssIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCglj b2xvcjpibHVlOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KYTp2aXNpdGVkLCBzcGFu Lk1zb0h5cGVybGlua0ZvbGxvd2VkDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xvcjpw dXJwbGU7DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOnVuZGVybGluZTt9DQpwLm1zb25vcm1hbDAsIGxpLm1z b25vcm1hbDAsIGRpdi5tc29ub3JtYWwwDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1uYW1lOm1zb25vcm1hbDsNCglt c28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6YXV0bzsNCgltYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4t Ym90dG9tLWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ow0K CWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJUaW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iLHNlcmlmO30NCnNwYW4uRW1haWxTdHlsZTE4 DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOnBlcnNvbmFsLXJlcGx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJp IixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCWNvbG9yOndpbmRvd3RleHQ7fQ0KLk1zb0NocERlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNv LXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6ZXhwb3J0LW9ubHk7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDt9DQpAcGFnZSBXb3Jk U2VjdGlvbjENCgl7c2l6ZTo4LjVpbiAxMS4waW47DQoJbWFyZ2luOjEuMGluIDEuMGluIDEuMGlu IDEuMGluO30NCmRpdi5Xb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7cGFnZTpXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjE7fQ0KLS0+PC9z dHlsZT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVk aXQiIHNwaWRtYXg9IjEwMjYiIC8+DQo8L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28g OV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0IHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJl ZGl0IiBkYXRhPSIxIiAvPg0KPC9vOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPg0KPC9o ZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiIGxpbms9ImJsdWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiPg0KPGRp diBjbGFzcz0iV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xIj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1z ZXJpZiI+UkZDIDc5OTUgY2FsbHMgZm9yIHVzZSBvZiBQREYvQS0zLCB3aGljaCB3YXMgZGVzaWdu ZWQgZm9yIGxvbmctdGVybSBwcmVzZXJ2YXRpb24uPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1p bHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj7igJxQREYgZm9yIExvbmctdGVybSBQ cmVzZXJ2YXRpb24sIFVzZSBvZiBJU08tMzIwMDAtMSwgV2l0aCBFbWJlZGRlZCBGaWxlc+KAnTxv OnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJm b250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJp ZiI+V2l0aCB0aGUgWE1MIGVtYmVkZGVkLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZx dW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9w Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9u dC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj5J4oCZbSBub3QgYW4gYXJj aGl2aXN0IGJ1dCBJIHBsYXllZCBvbmUsICZuYnNwO3Zpeg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2xhcnJ5 bWFzaW50ZXIubmV0LzA2MDMtYXJjaGl2aW5nLnBkZiI+aHR0cDovL2xhcnJ5bWFzaW50ZXIubmV0 LzA2MDMtYXJjaGl2aW5nLnBkZjwvYT48L3NwYW4+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4w cHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj48bzpwPjwvbzpw Pjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXpl OjExLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtDYWxpYnJpJnF1b3Q7LHNhbnMtc2VyaWYiPjxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250 LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+ PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5kaWdpdGFscHJlc2VydmF0aW9uLmdvdi9mb3JtYXRzL2ludHJv L2ludHJvLnNodG1sIj5odHRwOi8vd3d3LmRpZ2l0YWxwcmVzZXJ2YXRpb24uZ292L2Zvcm1hdHMv aW50cm8vaW50cm8uc2h0bWw8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7 Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8 ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7 Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OyxzYW5zLXNlcmlmIj5MYXJyeTxvOnA+PC9v OnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNp emU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+PG86 cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRt bD4NCg== --_000_BLUPR0201MB152207480F569220EFD675EAC34F0BLUPR0201MB1522_-- From nobody Tue Feb 21 15:39:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D73E1293DF for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:39:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gX_ascrtm7KI for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn3nam01on0115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.33.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 888FA1204D9 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:38:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=KsTw0bFdE3MQFrVUO3rDFuCwYTWnxbvQ39aFCnGCWgE=; b=lfLt5TpBayFqPcGiqXv7FxCB+fJ8qvMDv5IeHDCfyuSiIetQXSEj2886DNT2rnnKITN2NPy23NiDvg17eh5uhgqqwdsHt1ZcXe8aAlf627mYOUASrA5ubBtjx+Zms/lYP+M4GidMP3/m8jm4/cq3gKB+v9/sIMO0aikxsp/hnec= Received: from CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.207.17) by CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.207.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.919.13; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:38:55 +0000 Received: from CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.207.17]) by CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.207.17]) with mapi id 15.01.0919.018; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:38:55 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Thread-Topic: [IAB] Review of: draft-iab-protocol-transitions-05 Thread-Index: AQHScNl1qYf98Gy9+UeZm6opVlvecKF0T/lQ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:38:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <80f3ae1d-b303-7d58-7b14-495dc09e6f05@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <80f3ae1d-b303-7d58-7b14-495dc09e6f05@dcrocker.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=dthaler@microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:7::452] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 621392e9-8292-4d4b-50c1-08d45ab2cd37 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(48565401081); SRVR:CY1PR03MB2265; x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR03MB2265; 7:qghFLayUjGFaISRkiqm7E9mBXNp4h48oG2+7u7/M/CxJvlc5dwdLhlWtWrYiHSKwjaI8tIlsmzKEAOuxlMdGJgUTuqpVd0RfwSus0Zrri2BR5AESIkZ61iGOn4ST9S5OqTSEBsJHGqgErhN3hK6sLbHcZhd0HMxAq7CigI/Mqfqq7g3mc94y1kndGsnvPgmLCwHWnClZoT9K8Ooh4SEdy2tE9SaNAyBV+Bu+D3UeZw2qpM4wT5XswkLdx2XEQmDWWApT7yCl89UK0TXITKXBodYFcnboaN7UCmhQwsBX88OUEMKB1uCoQUGuw0FQwacvZWXbMvXAhU4I+OdGTU7NFiKXPyh3kDjs1P4SASaqL3c= x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(788757137089)(100405760836317)(155532106045638)(21748063052155)(148717330147763); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6041248)(20161123560025)(20161123558025)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123555025)(6072148); SRVR:CY1PR03MB2265; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR03MB2265; x-forefront-prvs: 0225B0D5BC x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(7916002)(39850400002)(39860400002)(39840400002)(39410400002)(39450400003)(189002)(199003)(6116002)(2906002)(230783001)(97736004)(6246003)(53936002)(3660700001)(6916009)(2950100002)(102836003)(50986999)(54356999)(38730400002)(2501003)(790700001)(110136004)(229853002)(76176999)(5005710100001)(189998001)(105586002)(122556002)(5630700001)(10090500001)(106356001)(8990500004)(106116001)(2351001)(74316002)(101416001)(5660300001)(68736007)(4326007)(55016002)(25786008)(92566002)(5640700003)(7696004)(99286003)(8936002)(33656002)(10290500002)(81166006)(9686003)(7736002)(1730700003)(77096006)(86612001)(6306002)(81156014)(54896002)(86362001)(3280700002)(2900100001)(8676002)(6506006)(6436002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR03MB2265; H:CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR03MB2265F13AFF92042F98B0F378A3510CY1PR03MB2265namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Feb 2017 23:38:55.7543 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR03MB2265 Archived-At: Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Review of: draft-iab-protocol-transitions-05 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:39:00 -0000 --_000_CY1PR03MB2265F13AFF92042F98B0F378A3510CY1PR03MB2265namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIERhdmUgZm9yIHRoZSBkZXRhaWxlZCByZXZpZXchDQoNCg0KDQpJIGhhdmUgYWNjZXB0 ZWQgdGhlIGVkaXRvcmlhbCBuaXRzLCBhbmQgbWFkZSBvdGhlciBjaGFuZ2VzIGFzIG5vdGVkIGJl bG93Lg0KDQoNCg0KICAgIFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyB3ZWxsLW9yZ2FuaXplZCBhbmQgd2VsbC13 cml0dGVuLiAgVGhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbnMgYW5kIGV4cGFuc2lvbnMgd29y dGggY29uc2lkZXJpbmcsIGFzIG5vdGVkIGJlbG93LCBhbmQgc29tZSBiYXNpYyBwb2ludHMgY2l0 ZWQgaGVyZToNCg0KDQoNCiAgICBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgdGVuZHMgdG8gbWVyZWx5IG1lbnRpb24g ZXNzZW50aWFsIGlzc3Vlcywgc3VjaCBhcyBpbmNlbnRpdmVzLCB3aXRob3V0IGdpdmluZyBtdWNo IGluc2lnaHQgaW50byBlaXRoZXIgbWV0aG9kcyBmb3IgYWRlcXVhdGVseSBhc3Nlc3NpbmcgaW5j ZW50aXZlcyBvciBkZWNpZGluZyBob3cgdG8gY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlbSBpbiBwcm90b2NvbCBkZXNp Z24uDQoNCg0KDQpVbmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5IHdlIG1heSBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIGxvdCBvZiBleHBlcmll bmNlIHdpdGggc3VjaCBtZXRob2RzLiAgSG93ZXZlciwgSSBoYXZlIG1hZGUgc2V2ZXJhbCBub3Rh YmxlIGNoYW5nZXMgaW4gcmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gdGhpcyBhbmQgb3RoZXJz4oCZIGNvbW1lbnRzLg0K DQpBbiBFeHRlbnNpYmlsaXR5IHNlY3Rpb24gbm93IGRpc2N1c3NlcyBleHRlbnNpYmlsaXR5IGlu IG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsIGFuZCByZWZlcnMgdG8gdGhlIElBQuKAmXMgcmVjZW50IFJGQyA2NzA5IHJl Z2FyZGluZyBwcm90b2NvbCBkZXNpZ24uDQoNCkEgQ29uY2x1c2lvbnMgc2VjdGlvbiBub3cgZW5j b3VyYWdlcyB0aGUgY29tbXVuaXR5IHRvIHNoYXJlIHN1Y2ggaW5zaWdodHMgYW5kIGZ1dHVyZSBl eHBlcmllbmNlcywgb24gdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS1kaXNjdXNzIGxpc3QuDQoNCg0KDQogICAg VGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFsc28gc2VlbXMgdG8gY29uZmxhdGUgImFkb3B0aW9uIiB3aXRoICJ0cmFu c2l0aW9uIi4NCg0KTXVjaCBvZiB0aGUgY29udGVudCBvZiB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXBwbGllcyB0 byBpbml0aWFsIGFkb3B0aW9uIG9mIGEgcHJvdG9jb2wsIGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgdG8gbGF0ZXIgdHJh bnNpdGlvbnMgdG8gcmV2aXNpb25zLiAgV2hpbGUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbnMgY2Fycnkgc2lnbmlmaWNh bnQgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBidXJkZW5zLCBiZXlvbmQgaW5pdGlhbCBhZG9wdGlvbiwgdGhlIElFVEYg bmVlZHMgYXR0ZW50aW9uIHRvIGluaXRpYWwgYWRvcHRpb24gaXNzdWVzIGV2ZXJ5IGJpdCBhcyBt dWNoIGFzIGl0IG5lZWRzIGF0dGVudGlvbiB0byB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIGlzc3Vlcy4NCg0KDQoNCkFk ZGVkIHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5IHBvaW50IHRvIHRoZSBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gc2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgdHJh bnNpdGlvbiBpcyBnZW5lcmljLCB3aXRoIGZvdXIgdHlwZXMgb2YgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiAoYWRvcHRp b24gb2YgYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wgd2l0aCBubyBwcmVjZWRlbnQsIHRyYW5zaXRpb25pbmcgZnJv bSBhbiBvbGQgdG8gYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wsIHRyYW5zaXRpb25pbmcgZnJvbSBhbiBvbGQgdG8g YSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBhIHByb3RvY29sLCBhbmQgZGVjb21taXNzaW9uaW5nIG9mIGFuIG9i c29sZXRlIHByb3RvY29sKS4gIE9mIGNvdXJzZSBzb21lIHBvaW50cyBpbiB0aGUgZG9jIGFwcGx5 IG1vcmUgc3Ryb25nbHkgdG8gY2VydGFpbiB0eXBlcyBvZiB0cmFuc2l0aW9uLg0KDQoNCg0KICAg IEFsdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCByZWZlcmVuY2VzIG9wZW4gc291cmNlIGltcGxlbWVudGF0 aW9ucyBhbmQgdGhlIGNoYWxsZW5nZXMgb2YgaGF2aW5nIGEgdGltZWxpbmUsIGl0IHNob3VsZCBl bXBoYXNpemUgdGhlIHJvbGUgb2YgdGhlIGZvcm1lciBtb3JlIGFuZCB0aGUgc2V2ZXJlIHByb2Js ZW1zIHdpdGggdGhlIGxhdHRlci4NCg0KDQoNCkkgcmV3cm90ZSB0aGUgc2VjdGlvbiBhYm91dCB0 aW1lbGluZXMgYW5kIGNyaXRlcmlhIGZvciBwaHJhc2VzIGJhc2VkIG9uIHlvdXIgZmVlZGJhY2su DQoNCg0KDQogICAgTWlnaHQgYmUgd29ydGggYWRkaW5nIHNvbWUgZXhhbXBsZXMgb2YgaGlnaGx5 IHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwgdHJhbnNpdGlvbnMuICBNSU1FIGlzLCBwcmVkaWN0YWJseSwgbXkgZmF2b3Jp dGUgZXhhbXBsZS4gIFRoZXJlIGhhZCBiZWVuIG11bHRpcGxlIGF0dGVtcHRzIHRvIHJlcGxhY2Ug ZXhpc3RpbmcsIHRleHQtYmFzZWQgZW1haWwgd2l0aCBhIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIHRoYXQgc3VwcG9y dGVkIG11bHRpLW1lZGlhLiAgTUlNRSBpbnN0ZWFkIGNyZWF0ZWQgYW4gb3ZlcmxheSB0aGF0IHJl cXVpcmVkIG5vIGNoYW5nZSB0byB0aGUgaW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUuDQoNCg0KDQpXaGVuIHRoZSBk aXNjdXNzZWQgaXQsIHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMgd2FzIHRoYXQgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBjYXNlIHN0dWRp ZXMgaW4gdGhlIGRvYyB3ZXJlIG5vdCBuZWNlc3NhcnkuICBVbmxlc3Mgb2YgY291cnNlIHRoZXJl 4oCZcyBhIGtleSBwb2ludCB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGNhbGxlZCBvdXQgdGhhdCBpc27igJl0IGNh cHR1cmVkIGF0IGFsbCBpbiB0aGUgb3RoZXIgY2FzZSBzdHVkaWVzLg0KDQoNCg0KICAgIFRoZXNl IGFib3ZlIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIGFyZSBpbiBsaW5lIHdpdGggRWxpb3QncyBjYWxsIGZvciBtb3Jl ICdtZWF0Jy4gIFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB0b3VjaGVzIG9uIGVzc2VudGlhbCBpc3N1ZXMuICBCdXQg Zm9yIHRoZSBJRVRGIHRvIGRlYWwgd2l0aCB0aGUgaXNzdWVzIHdlbGwsIHRoZXJlIG5lZWRzIHRv IGJlIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsZWQgYmFzaXMgZ2l2aW5nIGd1aWRhbmNlIGZvciBob3cgdG8gYXR0ZW5k IHRvIHRoZW0uIFRoaXMgaXMgcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IGltcG9ydGFudCBmb3IgaXNzdWVzIHN1Y2gg YXMgaW5jZW50aXZlcyBhbmFseXNpcyBhbmQgYWxpZ25pbmcgdG8gaW5jZW50aXZlcywgc2luY2Ug dGhleSBhcmUgdG9waWNzIG5vdCBub3JtYWxseSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIHB1cnZpZXcgb2YgSW50ZXJu ZXQgZW5naW5lZXJzLg0KDQooSWYgdGhlIGZlZWxpbmcgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgbWVhdCBzaG91bGQg YmUgYWRkZWQgdmlhIGxhdGVyIGRvY3VtZW50cyB0aGVuIHRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBhdCBsZWFzdCwg bm93LCBiZSBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiBzb21lIHBsYW4gZm9yIHRob3NlDQoNCmRvY3VtZW50cy4p DQoNCg0KDQogICAgU3Rld2FydCdzIGNhbGwgZm9yIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHRoZSByZXF1aXJlbWVu dCBvZiB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIC0tIEknZCBzdWdnZXN0ICdhZG9wdGlvbiBj b25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucycgLS0gd291bGQgcHJlc3Mgd29ya2luZyBncm91cHMgdG8gZG8gZmFyIG1v cmUgZHVlIGRpbGlnZW5jZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgYmFycmllcnMgdG8gYWRvcHRpb24gdGhhdCBpcyB0 eXBpY2FsbHkgZG9uZSBub3cuDQoNCg0KDQpQZXJoYXBzLCBidXQgdGhhdOKAmXMgZmVlZGJhY2sg Zm9yIHRoZSBJRVNHIHRvIGNvbnNpZGVyLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiB0aGUgSUFC4oCZcyBwdXJ2aWV3 IHBlciBzZS4NCg0KDQoNCkRldGFpbGVkOg0KDQoNCg0KSSBiZWxpZXZlIEnigJl2ZSBpbmNvcnBv cmF0ZWQgeW91ciB2YXJpb3VzIGRldGFpbGVkIHBvaW50cyBpbnRvIHRoZSBuZXcgZHJhZnQsIHNv b24gdG8gYmUgcG9zdGVk4oCmDQoNCg0KDQpCVFcsIHRoZSBjYXNlIHN0dWRpZXMgd2VyZSB3cml0 dGVuIGJ5IG90aGVycyAoSeKAmW0gdGhlIGVkaXRvcikgYW5kIHNvIHRoZXJlIG1heSBzdGlsbCBi ZQ0KYWRkaXRpb25hbCBjaGFuZ2VzIGFmdGVyIHRoYXQgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyBzb21lIG9mIHlvdXIg cG9pbnRzIGluIHRoZSBJUHY2IGNhc2Ugc3R1ZHkuDQoNCg0KDQpEYXZlDQoNCg0K --_000_CY1PR03MB2265F13AFF92042F98B0F378A3510CY1PR03MB2265namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbWJyaWEgTWF0aCI7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMyA1IDQgNiAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1m YWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmk7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiAxNSA1IDIgMiAyIDQgMyAy IDQ7fQ0KLyogU3R5bGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCnAuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBsaS5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGRpdi5Nc29Ob3JtYWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luOjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQph OmxpbmssIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xv cjojMDU2M0MxOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KYTp2aXNpdGVkLCBzcGFu Lk1zb0h5cGVybGlua0ZvbGxvd2VkDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xvcjoj OTU0RjcyOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KcC5Nc29QbGFpblRleHQsIGxp Lk1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCwgZGl2Lk1zb1BsYWluVGV4dA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7 DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IlBsYWluIFRleHQgQ2hhciI7DQoJbWFyZ2luOjBpbjsNCgltYXJn aW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2Fs aWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQpzcGFuLlBsYWluVGV4dENoYXINCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLW5hbWU6 IlBsYWluIFRleHQgQ2hhciI7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCW1zby1zdHlsZS1s aW5rOiJQbGFpbiBUZXh0IjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQou TXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQpAcGFnZSBXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7c2l6ZTo4LjVp biAxMS4waW47DQoJbWFyZ2luOjEuMGluIDEuMGluIDEuMGluIDEuMGluO30NCmRpdi5Xb3JkU2Vj dGlvbjENCgl7cGFnZTpXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjE7fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHlsZT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28g OV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIHNwaWRtYXg9IjEwMjYiIC8+ DQo8L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlbGF5 b3V0IHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBkYXRhPSIxIiAvPg0KPC9v OnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4t VVMiIGxpbms9IiMwNTYzQzEiIHZsaW5rPSIjOTU0RjcyIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRTZWN0 aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0Ij5UaGFua3MgRGF2ZSBmb3IgdGhlIGRldGFp bGVkIHJldmlldyE8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxvOnA+ Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+SSBoYXZlIGFjY2VwdGVk IHRoZSBlZGl0b3JpYWwgbml0cywgYW5kIG1hZGUgb3RoZXIgY2hhbmdlcyBhcyBub3RlZCBiZWxv dy48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9v OnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Oi41aW4i PiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXMgd2VsbC1vcmdhbml6ZWQgYW5kIHdl bGwtd3JpdHRlbi4mbmJzcDsgVGhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbnMgYW5kIGV4cGFu c2lvbnMgd29ydGggY29uc2lkZXJpbmcsIGFzIG5vdGVkIGJlbG93LCBhbmQgc29tZSBiYXNpYyBw b2ludHMgY2l0ZWQgaGVyZTo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQi IHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsgVGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHRlbmRzIHRvIG1lcmVseSBtZW50aW9uIGVzc2VudGlhbCBpc3N1ZXMs IHN1Y2ggYXMgaW5jZW50aXZlcywgd2l0aG91dCBnaXZpbmcgbXVjaCBpbnNpZ2h0IGludG8gZWl0 aGVyIG1ldGhvZHMgZm9yIGFkZXF1YXRlbHkgYXNzZXNzaW5nIGluY2VudGl2ZXMgb3IgZGVjaWRp bmcgaG93IHRvIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZW0gaW4gcHJvdG9jb2wNCiBkZXNpZ24uPG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iY29sb3I6YmxhY2siPjxv OnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxzcGFu IHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+VW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSB3ZSBtYXkgbm90IGhhdmUgYSBsb3Qg b2YgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSB3aXRoIHN1Y2ggbWV0aG9kcy4mbmJzcDsgSG93ZXZlciwgSSBoYXZlIG1h ZGUgc2V2ZXJhbCBub3RhYmxlIGNoYW5nZXMgaW4gcmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gdGhpcyBhbmQgb3RoZXJz 4oCZIGNvbW1lbnRzLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRl eHQiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+QW4gRXh0ZW5zaWJpbGl0eSBzZWN0aW9uIG5v dyBkaXNjdXNzZXMgZXh0ZW5zaWJpbGl0eSBpbiBtb3JlIGRldGFpbCBhbmQgcmVmZXJzIHRvIHRo ZSBJQULigJlzIHJlY2VudCBSRkMgNjcwOSByZWdhcmRpbmcgcHJvdG9jb2wgZGVzaWduLjxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJj b2xvcjpibGFjayI+QSBDb25jbHVzaW9ucyBzZWN0aW9uIG5vdyBlbmNvdXJhZ2VzIHRoZSBjb21t dW5pdHkgdG8gc2hhcmUgc3VjaCBpbnNpZ2h0cyBhbmQgZnV0dXJlIGV4cGVyaWVuY2VzLCBvbiB0 aGUgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3MgbGlzdC48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0IiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6LjVpbiI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8 L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0IiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6LjVp biI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBhbHNvIHNlZW1zIHRvIGNvbmZsYXRl ICZxdW90O2Fkb3B0aW9uJnF1b3Q7IHdpdGggJnF1b3Q7dHJhbnNpdGlvbiZxdW90Oy4NCjxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Oi41 aW4iPk11Y2ggb2YgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgb2YgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFwcGxpZXMgdG8gaW5pdGlh bCBhZG9wdGlvbiBvZiBhIHByb3RvY29sLCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRvIGxhdGVyIHRyYW5zaXRpb25z IHRvIHJldmlzaW9ucy4mbmJzcDsgV2hpbGUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbnMgY2Fycnkgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQg YWRkaXRpb25hbCBidXJkZW5zLCBiZXlvbmQgaW5pdGlhbCBhZG9wdGlvbiwgdGhlDQogSUVURiBu ZWVkcyBhdHRlbnRpb24gdG8gaW5pdGlhbCBhZG9wdGlvbiBpc3N1ZXMgZXZlcnkgYml0IGFzIG11 Y2ggYXMgaXQgbmVlZHMgYXR0ZW50aW9uIHRvIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gaXNzdWVzLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+ PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0Ij48c3Bh biBzdHlsZT0iY29sb3I6YmxhY2siPkFkZGVkIHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5IHBvaW50IHRvIHRoZSBJbnRy b2R1Y3Rpb24gc2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiBpcyBnZW5lcmljLCB3aXRoIGZvdXIgdHlw ZXMgb2YgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiAoYWRvcHRpb24gb2YgYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wgd2l0aCBubyBwcmVj ZWRlbnQsIHRyYW5zaXRpb25pbmcgZnJvbSBhbiBvbGQgdG8gYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wsIHRyYW5z aXRpb25pbmcNCiBmcm9tIGFuIG9sZCB0byBhIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIGEgcHJvdG9jb2wsIGFu ZCBkZWNvbW1pc3Npb25pbmcgb2YgYW4gb2Jzb2xldGUgcHJvdG9jb2wpLiZuYnNwOyBPZiBjb3Vy c2Ugc29tZSBwb2ludHMgaW4gdGhlIGRvYyBhcHBseSBtb3JlIHN0cm9uZ2x5IHRvIGNlcnRhaW4g dHlwZXMgb2YgdHJhbnNpdGlvbi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv UGxhaW5UZXh0IiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6LjVpbiI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+ DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0IiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6LjVpbiI+Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IEFsdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCByZWZlcmVuY2VzIG9wZW4gc291cmNl IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBhbmQgdGhlIGNoYWxsZW5nZXMgb2YgaGF2aW5nIGEgdGltZWxpbmUs IGl0IHNob3VsZCBlbXBoYXNpemUgdGhlIHJvbGUgb2YgdGhlIGZvcm1lciBtb3JlIGFuZCB0aGUg c2V2ZXJlIHByb2JsZW1zIHdpdGggdGhlIGxhdHRlci48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9y OmJsYWNrIj5JIHJld3JvdGUgdGhlIHNlY3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgdGltZWxpbmVzIGFuZCBjcml0ZXJp YSBmb3IgcGhyYXNlcyBiYXNlZCBvbiB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpw PiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4t bGVmdDouNWluIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgTWlnaHQgYmUgd29ydGggYWRkaW5nIHNvbWUg ZXhhbXBsZXMgb2YgaGlnaGx5IHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwgdHJhbnNpdGlvbnMuJm5ic3A7IE1JTUUgaXMs IHByZWRpY3RhYmx5LCBteSBmYXZvcml0ZSBleGFtcGxlLiZuYnNwOyBUaGVyZSBoYWQgYmVlbiBt dWx0aXBsZSBhdHRlbXB0cyB0byByZXBsYWNlIGV4aXN0aW5nLCB0ZXh0LWJhc2VkIGVtYWlsIHdp dGggYSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbg0KIHRoYXQgc3VwcG9ydGVkIG11bHRpLW1lZGlhLiZuYnNwOyBNSU1F IGluc3RlYWQgY3JlYXRlZCBhbiBvdmVybGF5IHRoYXQgcmVxdWlyZWQgbm8gY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRo ZSBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQi IHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPldoZW4gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpdCwgdGhlIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB3YXMg dGhhdCBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGNhc2Ugc3R1ZGllcyBpbiB0aGUgZG9jIHdlcmUgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2Fy eS4mbmJzcDsgVW5sZXNzIG9mIGNvdXJzZSB0aGVyZeKAmXMgYSBrZXkgcG9pbnQgdGhhdCB3b3Vs ZCBiZSBjYWxsZWQgb3V0IHRoYXQgaXNu4oCZdCBjYXB0dXJlZCBhdCBhbGwgaW4gdGhlIG90aGVy IGNhc2Ugc3R1ZGllcy48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0 eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsg VGhlc2UgYWJvdmUgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgYXJlIGluIGxpbmUgd2l0aCBFbGlvdCdzIGNhbGwgZm9y IG1vcmUgJ21lYXQnLiZuYnNwOyBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgdG91Y2hlcyBvbiBlc3NlbnRpYWwgaXNz dWVzLiZuYnNwOyBCdXQgZm9yIHRoZSBJRVRGIHRvIGRlYWwgd2l0aCB0aGUgaXNzdWVzIHdlbGws IHRoZXJlIG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsZWQgYmFzaXMgZ2l2aW5nDQogZ3VpZGFuY2Ug Zm9yIGhvdyB0byBhdHRlbmQgdG8gdGhlbS4gVGhpcyBpcyBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgaW1wb3J0YW50 IGZvciBpc3N1ZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBpbmNlbnRpdmVzIGFuYWx5c2lzIGFuZCBhbGlnbmluZyB0byBp bmNlbnRpdmVzLCBzaW5jZSB0aGV5IGFyZSB0b3BpY3Mgbm90IG5vcm1hbGx5IHdpdGhpbiB0aGUg cHVydmlldyBvZiBJbnRlcm5ldCBlbmdpbmVlcnMuDQo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj4oSWYgdGhlIGZlZWxpbmcg aXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgbWVhdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYWRkZWQgdmlhIGxhdGVyIGRvY3VtZW50cyB0aGVu IHRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBhdCBsZWFzdCwgbm93LCBiZSBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiBzb21lIHBsYW4g Zm9yIHRob3NlPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0IiBzdHlsZT0i bWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6LjVpbiI+ZG9jdW1lbnRzLik8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj4mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgU3Rld2FydCdzIGNhbGwgZm9yIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHRoZSByZXF1aXJl bWVudCBvZiB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIC0tIEknZCBzdWdnZXN0ICdhZG9wdGlv biBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucycgLS0gd291bGQgcHJlc3Mgd29ya2luZyBncm91cHMgdG8gZG8gZmFy IG1vcmUgZHVlIGRpbGlnZW5jZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgYmFycmllcnMgdG8gYWRvcHRpb24NCiB0aGF0 IGlzIHR5cGljYWxseSBkb25lIG5vdy48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFp blRleHQiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPlBlcmhhcHMsIGJ1dCB0aGF04oCZcyBmZWVkYmFjayBmb3Ig dGhlIElFU0cgdG8gY29uc2lkZXIsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIHRoZSBJQULigJlzIHB1cnZpZXcgcGVy IHNlLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdp bi1sZWZ0Oi41aW4iPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4 dCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Oi41aW4iPkRldGFpbGVkOjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj48bzpwPiZuYnNw OzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvUGxhaW5UZXh0Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i Y29sb3I6YmxhY2siPkkgYmVsaWV2ZSBJ4oCZdmUgaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGVkIHlvdXIgdmFyaW91cyBk ZXRhaWxlZCBwb2ludHMgaW50byB0aGUgbmV3IGRyYWZ0LCBzb29uIHRvIGJlIHBvc3RlZOKApjxv OnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7 PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+QlRXLCB0aGUgY2FzZSBzdHVkaWVz IHdlcmUgd3JpdHRlbiBieSBvdGhlcnMgKEnigJltIHRoZSBlZGl0b3IpIGFuZCBzbyB0aGVyZSBt YXkgc3RpbGwgYmU8YnI+DQphZGRpdGlvbmFsIGNoYW5nZXMgYWZ0ZXIgdGhhdCB0byBhZGRyZXNz IHNvbWUgb2YgeW91ciBwb2ludHMgaW4gdGhlIElQdjYgY2FzZSBzdHVkeS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29QbGFpblRleHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xh c3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj5EYXZlPG86cD48L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0 Oi41aW4iPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_CY1PR03MB2265F13AFF92042F98B0F378A3510CY1PR03MB2265namp_-- From nobody Tue Feb 21 15:54:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B46E129444 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:54:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWKJqtrwYJzE for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2CEE129407 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.22.53] ([216.127.117.40]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id v1LNuQ4d015293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:56:26 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1487721386; bh=IxLLWFlxJ67BnMJ5SL5QQd19+zIhvlv1rjFdJhDAW9c=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Reply-To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fr0nraKU/D6CW7AryQGXYqi9gN9vFh2QYxmTQEnSwjMuD2eh5NzNVlSbe/w4um8nY NVCDYia4U93iHV2gieOO3fbCXVGpXKt8PEV6//gQWL5ABq965qYSZI2ey0tWLgqliS C9lsuavsUpXdGdZke7a9xOYyyDu2xKFkgo89tEvY= To: Dave Thaler References: <80f3ae1d-b303-7d58-7b14-495dc09e6f05@dcrocker.net> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <01f7497f-c85c-edd4-d4ee-a8869aba4b52@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:54:38 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Review of: draft-iab-protocol-transitions-05 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 23:54:42 -0000 On 2/21/2017 3:38 PM, Dave Thaler wrote: > The document tends to merely mention essential issues, such as > incentives, without giving much insight into either methods for > adequately assessing incentives or deciding how to consider them in > protocol design. > > > > Unfortunately we may not have a lot of experience with such methods. > However, I have made several notable changes in response to this and > others’ comments. Dave, So, my primary concern is that when something is mentioned, it is made sufficiently real to the reader, so there is some shared substance to their understanding, among the range of readers we expect for the document. If the best shared understanding that is possible is that we don't understand this item well, well, that at least is honest (and, in an odd way, thorough.) > Might be worth adding some examples of highly successful > transitions. MIME is, predictably, my favorite example. There had been > multiple attempts to replace existing, text-based email with a new > version that supported multi-media. MIME instead created an overlay > that required no change to the infrastructure. > > > > When the discussed it, the consensus was that additional case studies in > the doc were not necessary. Unless of course there’s a key point that > would be called out that isn’t captured at all in the other case studies. Here's the catch: (similar to my above point) Who is the document for? A paper like this, without diligent examples, is purely conceptual. A typical reader will not have enough background to be able to move from the abstract text of the document to the real-world design and planning efforts that they do. Examples are not just to explain the concepts, but to tie them to pragmatics for which a reader is likely to have a background. > These above suggestions are in line with Eliot's call for more > 'meat'. The document touches on essential issues. But for the IETF to > deal with the issues well, there needs to be more detailed basis giving > guidance for how to attend to them. This is particularly important for > issues such as incentives analysis and aligning to incentives, since > they are topics not normally within the purview of Internet engineers. > > (If the feeling is that the meat should be added via later documents > then there should at least, now, be development of some plan for those > > documents.) > > > > Stewart's call for considering the requirement of transition > considerations -- I'd suggest 'adoption considerations' -- would press > working groups to do far more due diligence about the barriers to > adoption that is typically done now. > > > > Perhaps, but that’s feedback for the IESG to consider, rather than the > IAB’s purview per se. In terms of making requirements for the IETF stream, sure. But in terms of pressing the benefit of the exercise, no matter who is doing the work or under whose aegis, no. The latter is entirely reasonable for the IAB to describe and promote... > Detailed: > > > > I believe I’ve incorporated your various detailed points into the new > draft, soon to be posted… Thanks for the thoughtful response and (of course) for the doc modifications... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net