From xiajinwei@huawei.com Tue Mar 1 22:35:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3CA3A6A93 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:35:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xrTe3c6M1v99 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0193A6A49 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LHF00ESB3OQEE@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:36:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LHF000VZ3OQDQ@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:36:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from x65217 ([10.138.41.38]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LHF00HH23OP87@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:36:26 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:36:26 +0800 From: Jinwei Xia To: avtext@ietf.org Message-id: <00ad01cbd8a4$27e5f850$26298a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcvYhBA+m7BpH46BQbejmUx8ey+PjgACCCcA Subject: [avtext] draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 06:35:34 -0000 Hi All, We submit the new version of RTP splicing draft to AVTEXT WG. Compared to the previous one in AVT WG, this revision includes the changes we agreed on in the last meeting and the later feedback on the list. The major differences in the new version are: 1, Eliminate the ambiguity of inserted content with substitutive content which replaces the main content rather than pause it. 2, Clarify the signaling requirements 3, Delete the description of Mixer and MCU, only describe why Translator can be used to handle splicing, and give exact guidance on how splicing (RTP and RTCP) is done on Translator. 4, Expand Security Considerations section and Acknowledges section. The new version is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00 See the final technical analysis in last meeting here : http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/avt/current/msg13817.html Any comments are very appreciately BR Jinwei > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 10:45 AM > To: xiajinwei@huawei.com > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00 > > > A new version of I-D, > draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00.txt has been > successfully submitted by Jinwei Xia and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp > Revision: 00 > Title: Content Splicing for RTP Sessions > Creation_date: 2011-02-26 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 11 > > Abstract: > This memo outlines RTP splicing. Splicing is a process that > replaces the content of the main multimedia stream with other > multimedia content, and delivers the substitutive multimedia > content to receiver for a period of time. This memo > discusses the requirements of splicing process on RTP layer, > thus provides guideline for how a RTP Translator works to > satisfy these requirements. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat. > > From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 3 06:47:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9656B3A69E8 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 06:47:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.608 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.608 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.641, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4Xpw7B-CUmz for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 06:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9533A67B2 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 06:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p23Em0Q6029289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 15:48:15 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 15:47:54 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 15:47:52 +0100 Thread-Topic: Audio level drafts Thread-Index: AcvZsflebSAJ9LhzRVi2y79XbFE2TQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: [avtext] Audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 14:47:12 -0000 (As WG chair) We have had submitted working group versions of both audio level drafts: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-le= vel/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-le= vel/ We'd like to get this to WGLC shortly after the forthcoming face to face me= eting, given that the views expressed before adoption of the text were that= they were pretty well baked. So now would be a good time to read the drafts, and identify if you think t= here are open issues with the documents, and get some discussion going on t= he list about what needs to be fixed. Regards Keith From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 3 07:09:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796FA3A67B2 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:09:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.675 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.675 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.574, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dx+zTkKg6WNC for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7470D3A67B1 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 07:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p23FANBB029215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 16:10:28 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Thu, 3 Mar 2011 16:10:11 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 16:10:10 +0100 Thread-Topic: IETF#80 WG session Thread-Index: AcvZtRaA0yo+qPLvQZSFe1R196fGQw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] IETF#80 WG session X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 15:09:22 -0000 (As WG cochair) The IETF#80 meeting agenda for Prague is posted at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/ This is still subject to revision, so do not book your flights home early b= ased on this. The AVTEXT session is provisionally listed on Monday from 15:10 to 16:10 in= Congress Hall I. This immediately follows on from the AVTCORE session which is provisionally= listed on Monday from 13:00 - 15:00 in Congress Hall I. My assumption is that we will assume the audience for both groups is much t= he same, and we will only stop between the sessions long enough to change c= hairs, and ensure the blue sheets don't get muddled up. The AVTEXT portion = is however expected to start pretty much at the time designated. I believe Magnus will issue a provisional agenda shortly. Regards Keith From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 01:15:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6564A3A6827; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:15:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.529 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.529 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIiIy+gFo6Dn; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A035B28C0ED; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:15:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110307091501.12304.60579.idtracker@localhost> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 01:15:01 -0800 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 09:15:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multicast Acquisition Report Block Type for RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Extended Reports (XRs) Author(s) : A. Begen, E. Friedrich Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2011-03-05 In most RTP-based multicast applications, the RTP source sends inter- related data. Due to this interdependency, randomly joining RTP receivers usually cannot start consuming the multicast data right after they join the session. Thus, they often experience a random acquisition delay. One approach to reduce this delay is to receive a burst stream from a retransmission server that facilitates rapid acquisition of the multicast stream. An RTP receiver may use this approach (or any other approach) to achieve rapid acquisition. Yet, due to various factors, performance of the rapid acquisition methods usually varies. Furthermore, in some cases the RTP receiver may (or may have to) do a simple multicast join. For quality reporting, monitoring and diagnostics purposes, it is important to collect detailed information from the RTP receivers about their acquisition and presentation experiences. This document addresses this issue by defining a new report block type, called Multicast Acquisition (MA) Report Block, within the framework of RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Extended Reports (XR) (RFC 3611). This document also defines the necessary signaling of the new MA report block type in the Session Description Protocol (SDP). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-07010525.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Mar 10 07:44:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD623A69CC for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:44:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tASqRvnG0ftF for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7B73A69E6 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:44:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-5b-4d78f240fa21 Received: from esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D3.90.09202.042F87D4; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:46:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [147.214.183.8] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.234.1; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:46:08 +0100 Message-ID: <4D78F240.8000002@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:46:08 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] WG adaptation of ID for Considerations for RAMS Scenarios X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:44:52 -0000 The WG has a milestone: Jun 2011 Submit Considerations for RAMS Scenarios for Informational To the WG chairs knowledge the only source material we have to meet this milestone is the following individual draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-begen-avtext-rams-scenarios/ This is a WG consensus call to adopt the above Internet Draft as baseline text for this milestone. At this stage the text does not have to be regarded perfect, the question is more "Does this text form a better basis for completing the work in the working group that some text yet to be submitted?" While the prime intention of this call is to adopt the entire text of the individual draft, if you consider that some of the text is appropriate, but that some of the text does not form a reasonable start for the work, then please indicate that text and we will make a separate call on it (and adopt the rest). Please respond by Sunday 27th of March 2011 with your positions. Best Regards Magnus Westerlund AVTExt Chair ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From Aidan.Williams@audinate.com Thu Mar 10 22:21:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6AE3A6892 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:21:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gcjY-EA-8tsx for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sydney.audinate.com (sydney.audinate.com [150.101.200.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2A83A6805 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.audinate.com (zimbra.audinate.com [10.12.0.6]) by sydney.audinate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2534180059 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.audinate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A499E04C5 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:21:29 +1100 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.audinate.com Received: from zimbra.audinate.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.audinate.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gY5xotnfklhd for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:21:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from praxis.audinate.com (praxis.audinate.com [10.12.0.112]) by zimbra.audinate.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1796E9DFCB3 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:21:26 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4D79BF8E.4020902@audinate.com> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:06 +1100 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000905010808010300030802" Subject: [avtext] New Version Notification for draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:21:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000905010808010300030802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Comments welcome. - aidan -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:55:44 -0800 (PST) From: IETF I-D Submission Tool To: aidan.williams@audinate.com A new version of I-D, draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Aidan Williams and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-williams-avtext-avbsync Revision: 01 Title: IEEE 1588/802.1AS Synchronisation for RTP Streams Creation_date: 2011-03-11 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 7 Abstract: Specification of an RTP header extension for carrying in-band synchronization metadata provided by the IEEE1588/802.1AS Precision Time Protocols. The IETF Secretariat. --------------000905010808010300030802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Comments welcome.
- aidan

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:55:44 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: aidan.williams@audinate.com 


A new version of I-D, draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Aidan Williams and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-williams-avtext-avbsync
Revision:	 01
Title:		 IEEE 1588/802.1AS Synchronisation for RTP Streams
Creation_date:	 2011-03-11
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 7

Abstract:
Specification of an RTP header extension for carrying in-band
synchronization metadata provided by the IEEE1588/802.1AS Precision
Time Protocols.
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.
--------------000905010808010300030802-- From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 07:15:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CE43A6910; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CKeSfisCgk6f; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0833A6D90; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110314141501.32545.37744.idtracker@localhost> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 07:15:01 -0700 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:15:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Mixer-to- Client Audio Level Indication Author(s) : E. Ivov, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2011-03-14 This document describes a mechanism for RTP-level mixers in audio conferences to deliver information about the audio level of individual participants. Such audio level indicators are transported in the same RTP packets as the audio data they pertain to. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-14071217.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Mon Mar 14 11:15:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CBB3A6E63; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.576 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.576 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5-j1HWLOtEfT; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBA43A6DC5; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110314181502.31818.25042.idtracker@localhost> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:15:02 -0700 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 18:15:03 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Client-to- Mixer Audio Level Indication Author(s) : J. Lennox, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2011-03-14 This document defines a mechanism by which packets of Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) audio streams can indicate, in an RTP header extension, the audio level of the audio sample carried in the RTP packet. In large conferences, this can reduce the load on an audio mixer or other middlebox which wants to forward only a few of the loudest audio streams, without requiring it to decode and measure every stream that is received. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-14111429.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From emil@sip-communicator.org Mon Mar 14 14:43:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D433A6F6F for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.284 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.284 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yTtZrrmrcvoP for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5815A3A6F48 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so5370074wyb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.59.139 with SMTP id s11mr2762411wec.109.1300139072883; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porcinet.local (shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net [88.165.90.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b54sm4095382wer.45.2011.03.14.14.44.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:44:30 +0100 From: Emil Ivov Organization: Jitsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; bg; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:43:16 -0000 Hey folks, We have just posted new versions of the audio level drafts and wanted to discuss some of the changes before the meeting. The most significant change consists in the addition of sample code that shows how audio levels can be measured and rendered. The code was added to the mixer-to-client draft but they both reference it since it can also be used in client-to-mixer implementations. We felt it was important to have actual code in there because: * We did not find satisfactory examples in the ITU recommendations that we are referencing. * We would like to encourage implementation and this pretty much lifts any audio processing background requirement from implementors. * Although the implementation section is only informative, we still hope it would help clear doubts during implementation and help improve interoperability. The code is available in two classes: an AudioLevelCalculator and an AudioLevelRenderer. The calculator takes raw audio samples and produces values that can then be sent with the level extensions defined in the two drafts. The renderer helps implementors display levels in a way that feels more natural to users. This makes it suitable primarily to implementors of the mixer-to-client draft. It basically cuts off values below "whisper" and above "hearing damage" and it also ensures that level changes would be rendered smoothly. There are of course millions of ways this part can be improved which is why it appears separately. We felt however that it was important to have at least a few crumbs in. Feedback is of course most welcome and we'd love to hear from you on the following: * Does it make sense for you to have the code in there? * Do you agree that the calculator and the renderer should be split the way they are? * Does it make sense to have the renderer code in the drafts at all? * Do you feel the code should be improved in any way? Cheers, Emil -- Emil Ivov 67000 Strasbourg, Project Lead France Jitsi emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30 http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31 From emil@sip-communicator.org Mon Mar 14 14:29:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6963A6BBA for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.284 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.284 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eh3EZmSkORlY for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868483A6BAC for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so5357777wyb.31 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.210.231 with SMTP id u81mr11137370weo.65.1300138239048; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porcinet.local (shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net [88.165.90.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o19sm4077779wee.26.2011.03.14.14.30.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D7E88FB.1010107@jitsi.org> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:30:35 +0100 From: Emil Ivov Organization: Jitsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; bg; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 01:27:23 -0700 Subject: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:29:17 -0000 Hey folks, We have just posted new versions of the audio level drafts and wanted to discuss some of the changes before the meeting. The most significant change consists in the addition of sample code that shows how audio levels can be measured and rendered. The code was added to the mixer-to-client draft but they both reference it since it can also be used in client-to-mixer implementations. We felt it was important to have actual code in there because: * We did not find satisfactory examples in the ITU recommendations that we are referencing. * We would like to encourage implementation and this pretty much lifts any audio processing background requirement from implementors. * Although the implementation section is only informative, we still hope it would help clear doubts during implementation and help improve interoperability. The code is available in two classes: an AudioLevelCalculator and an AudioLevelRenderer. The calculator takes raw audio samples and produces values that can then be sent with the level extensions defined in the two drafts. The renderer helps implementors display levels in a way that feels more natural to users. This makes it suitable primarily to implementors of the mixer-to-client draft. It basically cuts off values below "whisper" and above "hearing damage" and it also ensures that level changes would be rendered smoothly. There are of course millions of ways this part can be improved which is why it appears separately. We felt however that it was important to have at least a few crumbs in. Feedback is of course most welcome and we'd love to hear from you on the following: * Does it make sense for you to have the code in there? * Do you agree that the calculator and the renderer should be split the way they are? * Does it make sense to have the renderer code in the drafts at all? * Do you feel the code should be improved in any way? Cheers, Emil -- Emil Ivov 67000 Strasbourg, Project Lead France Jitsi emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30 http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31 From peter.musgrave@magorcorp.com Tue Mar 15 04:45:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB803A6D45 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:45:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YOYwQ4h7Beiq for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97BF3A6C78 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ywi6 with SMTP id 6so245950ywi.31 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.26.69 with SMTP id b45mr8096789yha.51.1300189597447; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (cpe-173-170-70-85.tampabay.res.rr.com [173.170.70.85]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x72sm1965596yhn.1.2011.03.15.04.46.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Peter Musgrave In-Reply-To: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 07:46:34 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> To: Emil Ivov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 11:45:13 -0000 Hi Emil,=20 On 2011-03-14, at 5:30 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: > Feedback is of course most welcome and we'd love to hear from you on = the > following: >=20 > * Does it make sense for you to have the code in there? I think having a clear statement of the dbov algorithm in code or = pseudo-code is fine. It will save a lot of people a lot of time looking = up the very detailed references and making sense of them. > * Do you agree that the calculator and the renderer should be split = the > way they are? > * Does it make sense to have the renderer code in the drafts at all? No. I view this as the kind of thing an implementation should decide.=20 > * Do you feel the code should be improved in any way? I find the code confusing, since it makes reference to sound pressure = whereas section 5 talks about dbov with respect to the overload point of = the system. I expected this overload point to be an input to the code = but did not see it. Also if this is general code I would expect it to be = clear how to generalize to 8 bit samples (or it should handle both = cases).=20 I do agree that the technical details of dbov are difficult to find and = making a clear statement with example code is useful. I would skip the = renderer - since I think implementation of that is very much a matter of = taste. I think there are many choices for averaging here.... Regards,=20 Peter Musgrave From emil@sip-communicator.org Tue Mar 15 14:05:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DC53A6EE0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.158, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adCt+C-0+WPF for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9553A6EDF for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwa36 with SMTP id 36so851347wwa.13 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.167.65 with SMTP id h43mr4215808wel.17.1300223206867; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porcinet.local (shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net [88.165.90.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l5sm147470wej.8.2011.03.15.14.06.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D7FD4DD.2030307@jitsi.org> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:06:37 +0100 From: Emil Ivov Organization: Jitsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; bg; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Musgrave References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:05:23 -0000 Hey Peter, Thanks for the feedback. A few quick comments inline, =D0=9D=D0=B0 15.03.11 12:46, Peter Musgrave =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81= =D0=B0: > Hi Emil, >=20 > On 2011-03-14, at 5:30 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >=20 >> Feedback is of course most welcome and we'd love to hear from you >> on the following: >>=20 >> * Does it make sense for you to have the code in there? > I think having a clear statement of the dbov algorithm in code or > pseudo-code is fine. It will save a lot of people a lot of time > looking up the very detailed references and making sense of them. >=20 >> * Do you agree that the calculator and the renderer should be split >> the way they are? * Does it make sense to have the renderer code in >> the drafts at all? > > No. I view this as the kind of thing an implementation should decide. Well, it can still decide not to implement it the way it's in the draft, right? Having the code as an example however, would also allow people not to decide if it doesn't want anything fancy in there. >> * Do you feel the code should be improved in any way? >=20 > I find the code confusing, since it makes reference to sound pressure > whereas section 5 talks about dbov with respect to the overload point > of the system. I expected this overload point to be an input to the > code but did not see it. Indeed not, it's hard coded right now. We'll make sure it is available as an input param. > Also if this is general code I would expect > it to be clear how to generalize to 8 bit samples (or it should > handle both cases). Right, we'll make sure it handles both. > I do agree that the technical details of dbov are difficult to find > and making a clear statement with example code is useful. I would > skip the renderer - since I think implementation of that is very much > a matter of taste. I think there are many choices for averaging > here.... Well, personally, I don't feel that strongly for the renderer either. The thinking was that, if no choice is made for the averaging, the result would look bad, so posting an example made sense to us. Of course if people feel this is unnecessary then we can maybe simply mention in the body that some averaging/smoothing mechanism needs to be applied for user comfort. Cheers, Emil From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Mar 16 06:44:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA38D3A6999 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 06:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.775 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.775 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QeTti-8bAlS3 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FED3A6998 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 06:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.64]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2GDjXLY015249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:45:34 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.64]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:45:34 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:45:31 +0100 Thread-Topic: Current avtext drafts and status Thread-Index: Acvj4Gq797yYbuDvRXaqoYmFVa1QrQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Current avtext drafts and status X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:44:14 -0000 (As WF cochair) The following is the list of drafts I believe are currently addressed to th= e AVTEXT WG along with the current status of the work. Please treat this as= a reading list, and also please let me know of any omissions. ------------------------------------------------------------ Multicast Acquisition Report Block Type for RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Ext= ended Reports (XRs) http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00.txt Document complete, awaiting publication writeup. --------------------------------------------------------- Oct 2011 Submit RTP Header extension for client to mixer audio level indic= ation as proposed standard =20 A Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Client-to-Mixer A= udio Level Indication http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01.txt WG draft. Looking to get ready for WGLC - please identify open issues and i= mprovements. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Oct 2011 Submit RTP Header extension for mixer to client audio level indic= ation as Proposed Standard A Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Mixer-to-Client A= udio Level Indication http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01.txt WG draft. Looking to get ready for WGLC - please identify open issues and i= mprovements. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jun 2011 Submit Considerations for RAMS Scenarios for Informational =20 Considerations and Guidelines for Deploying the Rapid Acquisition of Multic= ast RTP Sessions (RAMS) Method http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-begen-avtext-rams-scenarios-00.txt Candidate draft providing text for the above milestone. Request made to adopt as baseline text. Call finishes 27th March 2011. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dec 2011 Submit Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session for Pro= posed Standard Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-petithuguenin-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-00.t= xt Candidate draft providing text for the above milestone. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dec 2011 Submit SRTP Store-and-Forward Use Cases and Requirements for Info= rmational =20 Need to confirm we need the above milestone. The milestones were created wi= thout prior consensus of the former AVT working group. Candidate draft: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-mattsson-srtp-store-and-forwa= rd-04.txt SRTP Store-and-Forward Use Cases and Requirements ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dec 2011 Submit Use of the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in S= tore-and-Forward Applications for Proposed Standard =20 Need to confirm we need the above milestone. The milestones were created wi= thout prior consensus of the former AVT working group. Candidate draft: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-naslund-srtp-saf-04.txt The Use of the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in Store-and-Forw= ard Applications ----------------------------------------------------------------- IEEE 1588/802.1AS Synchronisation for RTP Streams http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-williams-avtext-avbsync-01.txt Author draft - need to decide if we want milestone on this subject. Proposed standards track document. ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00.txt Content Splicing for RTP Sessions Author draft - need to decide if we want milestone on this subject. Proposed informational document. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Regards Keith From csp@csperkins.org Wed Mar 16 15:33:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF003A6A7A for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXHGvgXjJ7o3 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lon1-msapost-1.mail.demon.net (lon1-msapost-1.mail.demon.net [195.173.77.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE29B3A6A84 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starkperkins.demon.co.uk ([80.176.158.71] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by lon1-post-1.mail.demon.net with esmtpsa (AUTH csperkins-dwh) (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) id 1PzzIr-00054R-Xm; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:34:53 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:34:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Current avtext drafts and status X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:33:28 -0000 Keith, On 16 Mar 2011, at 13:45, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > The following is the list of drafts I believe are currently addressed = to the AVTEXT WG along with the current status of the work. Please treat = this as a reading list, and also please let me know of any omissions. We have a new individual draft on RTP Requirements for the RTC-Web work = (draft-perkins-rtcweb-rtp-usage-00). I'd appreciate review from AVTEXT, = even though this isn't directly targeted at the group. Cheers, Colin --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Mar 17 07:08:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB263A6983 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-8KoTL2+Oo1 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA133A693F for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-50-4d82163a5224 Received: from esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 39.D6.09202.A36128D4; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:10:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [147.214.183.8] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.234.1; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:10:02 +0100 Message-ID: <4D82163A.7070703@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:10:02 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:08:36 -0000 Hi, The draft agenda for the meeting is available here: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/agenda/avtext.txt Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Mar 17 09:27:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5143A69DB for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.637 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.637 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hYyhaMDLN7iy for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail5.alcatel.fr (smail5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D42D3A6A50 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail5.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2HGTHAr025016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:29:18 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:29:17 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:29:17 +0100 Thread-Topic: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts Thread-Index: AcvikQgZ4fMSa588R0C8/CaRKzTT/QCA8Cxg Message-ID: References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.13 Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:27:54 -0000 (As WG chair) (Please respond to both calls below by Monday 28th March 2011) My preference is that such additional material is discussed on the mailing = list or by submission as a separate draft before inclusion in a draft under= working group control. That way we have more a more explicit view over what purports to have WG co= nsensus and what does not. I would therefore like to make a working group consensus call on the additi= onal material. Please answer yes or no to this question, although other com= ments are also welcome. WG Call -------- Does the WG consider the additional material added in Appendix A of draft-i= etf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01 (and also referenced from draft-i= etf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01) form the basis of an improvement= to the WG task on audio levels, and should therefore be retained in the do= cument? Other changes that have taken place are the removal of the existing section= 11 (Design choices) from draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level. So= metimes such material has been retained as an annex, and sometimes it is di= scarded.=20 WG call ------- Is the WG happy with this deletion? Please note that section 9 of draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level= -01 contains a list of open issues: 9. Open Issues At the time of writing of this document the authors have no clear view on how and if the following list of issues should be address here: 1. Audio levels in video streams. This specification allows use of audio level values in "silent" audio streams that don't otherwise carry any payload thus allowing their delivery within systems where the various focus/mixer components communicate with each other as conference participants. The same train of thought may very well justify audio level transport in video streams. 2. It has been suggested to reference ITU P.56 [ITU.P56.1993] for level measurement. This needs to be investigated. And for draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01 Appendix A. Open issues o In order to more accurately determine signal-to-noise ratio, it would be useful for a sender to also send its estimate of its current audio noise floor. If so, it's unclear whether this would be better as a separate header extension element, or added to this header extension element. o It has been suggested to reference ITU P.56 [ITU.P56.1993] for level measurement. This needs to be investigated. I would ask the working group to provide comments to close these. Finally I notice that the summary of changes since the previous version has= been restricted to the last version. Could I ask that this material is rei= nstated, and we will delete it at the publication stage. In pursuance of th= is, please add a note to the RFC editor to delete this material during fina= l editing. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Emil Ivov > Sent: 14 March 2011 21:45 > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts >=20 > Hey folks, >=20 > We have just posted new versions of the audio level drafts and wanted to > discuss some of the changes before the meeting. >=20 > The most significant change consists in the addition of sample code that > shows how audio levels can be measured and rendered. The code was added > to the mixer-to-client draft but they both reference it since it can > also be used in client-to-mixer implementations. >=20 > We felt it was important to have actual code in there because: >=20 > * We did not find satisfactory examples in the ITU recommendations that > we are referencing. > * We would like to encourage implementation and this pretty much lifts > any audio processing background requirement from implementors. > * Although the implementation section is only informative, we still hope > it would help clear doubts during implementation and help improve > interoperability. >=20 > The code is available in two classes: an AudioLevelCalculator and an > AudioLevelRenderer. The calculator takes raw audio samples and produces > values that can then be sent with the level extensions defined in the > two drafts. >=20 > The renderer helps implementors display levels in a way that feels more > natural to users. This makes it suitable primarily to implementors of > the mixer-to-client draft. It basically cuts off values below "whisper" > and above "hearing damage" and it also ensures that level changes would > be rendered smoothly. There are of course millions of ways this part can > be improved which is why it appears separately. We felt however that it > was important to have at least a few crumbs in. >=20 > Feedback is of course most welcome and we'd love to hear from you on the > following: >=20 > * Does it make sense for you to have the code in there? > * Do you agree that the calculator and the renderer should be split the > way they are? > * Does it make sense to have the renderer code in the drafts at all? > * Do you feel the code should be improved in any way? >=20 > Cheers, > Emil >=20 > -- > Emil Ivov 67000 Strasbourg, > Project Lead France > Jitsi > emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30 > http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31 > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From kpfleming@digium.com Thu Mar 17 10:51:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A1D3A6AE3 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id labPaxUbiwpT for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.digium.com (mail.digium.com [216.207.245.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDD53A6ADF for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.digium.internal ([10.24.55.203] helo=zimbra.hsv.digium.com) by mail.digium.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q0HNg-0000Ek-Nc for avtext@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:53:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.hsv.digium.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8262D82A2 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:53:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zimbra.hsv.digium.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.hsv.digium.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dg7wltoIMQuy for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:53:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [10.24.250.46] (unknown [10.24.250.46]) by zimbra.hsv.digium.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 690B0D82A0 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:53:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4D824A80.8030808@digium.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:53:04 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Fleming" Organization: Digium, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.14) Gecko/20110223 Thunderbird/3.1.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:51:38 -0000 On 03/17/2011 11:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > And for draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01 > > Appendix A. Open issues > > o In order to more accurately determine signal-to-noise ratio, it > would be useful for a sender to also send its estimate of its > current audio noise floor. If so, it's unclear whether this would > be better as a separate header extension element, or added to this > header extension element. I think this is an excellent idea, and it makes sense to me for it to be included in the same header element, since it is providing a reference point (of sorts) for the existing level indication. -- Kevin P. Fleming Digium, Inc. | Director of Software Technologies Jabber: kfleming@digium.com | SIP: kpfleming@digium.com | Skype: kpfleming 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA Check us out at www.digium.com & www.asterisk.org From emil@sip-communicator.org Fri Mar 18 04:29:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE13A3A6870 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzKz-a71dbLj for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8CC3A6800 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwa36 with SMTP id 36so3176879wwa.13 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.145.221 with SMTP id p71mr2421758wej.9.1300447851155; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porcinet.local (shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net [88.165.90.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g32sm1534237wej.3.2011.03.18.04.30.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D834268.6040708@jitsi.org> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:30:48 +0100 From: Emil Ivov Organization: Jitsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; bg; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:29:23 -0000 =D0=9D=D0=B0 17.03.11 17:29, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8= =D1=81=D0=B0: > Finally I notice that the summary of changes since the previous > version has been restricted to the last version. Could I ask that > this material is reinstated, and we will delete it at the publication > stage. In pursuance of this, please add a note to the RFC editor to > delete this material during final editing. OK, will do as soon as draft submission opens again. Cheers, Emil From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Mar 18 04:31:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4052C3A68AA for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.783, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MwrhPw2ycM-c for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090783A6800 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2IBWiF2003207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:33:00 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:32:59 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Emil Ivov Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:32:56 +0100 Thread-Topic: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts Thread-Index: AcvlX/4QOdHV/5O/QySrvKM9P/oR5gAABwEQ Message-ID: References: <4D7E8C3E.9090407@jitsi.org> <4D834268.6040708@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: <4D834268.6040708@jitsi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:31:33 -0000 It is not urgent, this stuff disappears eventually. Wait until there are ot= her changes identified by the working group. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: Emil Ivov [mailto:emcho@jitsi.org] > Sent: 18 March 2011 11:31 > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Cc: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [avtext] New versions for the audio level drafts >=20 > =EE=C1 17.03.11 17:29, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1: > > Finally I notice that the summary of changes since the previous > > version has been restricted to the last version. Could I ask that > > this material is reinstated, and we will delete it at the publication > > stage. In pursuance of this, please add a note to the RFC editor to > > delete this material during final editing. >=20 > OK, will do as soon as draft submission opens again. >=20 > Cheers, > Emil From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Mar 23 08:11:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD05C3A6926 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:11:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.794 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.794 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.455, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uR+mitPacnvO for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE89F3A692A for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2NFAYI0027631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:12:41 +0100 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:12:33 +0100 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:12:32 +0100 Thread-Topic: Presentation slides for AVTEXT meeting Thread-Index: AcvpbLudwQW2XTNDQDWPdWGyE/TIjw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Presentation slides for AVTEXT meeting X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:11:13 -0000 (As WG cochair) Could I request all presenters to provide their slides for the AVTEXT sessi= on by close of business on Friday. We like to get these up at ideally 24 hours in advance of the session, and = to cope with our various travel plans that brings us back to Friday. HEALTH WARNING: If we do not get the slides you either lose the presentatio= n slot, or you end up presenting without slides. That at least means the re= mote participants are not disadvantaged. Regards Keith From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Mar 24 02:34:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654CA3A6857 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 02:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IHZJpkBQORUR for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 02:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B9E3A6847 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 02:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-e6-4d8b107f9668 Received: from esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3F.32.09202.F701B8D4; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:35:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [147.214.183.67] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:35:58 +0100 Message-ID: <4D8B107E.9000809@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:35:58 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Petit-Huguenin , avtext@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Comments on draft-petithuguenin-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:34:28 -0000 Hi, This mail is my personal opinions and not as a WG chair. I have reviewed the draft and think it is a reasonable starting point for meeting the WG's milestone. However, I do have some technical comments. 1. Why haven't you considered to use the actual clock derivation method that results in a correct result assuming no packet loss occurs, and where RTCP will work to correct it when it occurs. In my view the method in 2.2.1 is incorrect in one important detail: timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - previous_capture_time) * current_clock_rate The "current_clock_rate" should actually be previous clock rate. If one uses the clock rate from the previous packet to cover the time period up to a switch then one avoids any discontinuities and the jitter doesn't make a jump before one knows what the new clock rate is. It is also consistent with logical thinking for any media that had duration. Take for example audio with 20 ms frame lengths, the RTP TS value for a packet with one frame provides the time at the start of the frame. Then the frame has a duration of 20 ms, thus resulting in that the timestamp value of any next frame that are aligned with the current will be starting at last_TS+0.02*clock_rate. Thus resulting in that the formula should read: timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - previous_capture_time) * previous_clock_rate One also needs to reconsider the arrival formulas to use previous: (1) current_time_capture = (current_timestamp - previous_timestamp) / previous_clock_rate + previous_time_capture (2) transit = previous_clock_rate * (time_arrival - current_time_capture) (3) previous_time_capture = current_time_capture (4) previous_clock_rate = current_clock_rate Using these formulas to update table 2: +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ | Capt. | Clock | RTP | Arrival | Transit | Jitter | Average | | time | rate | timestamp | time | | | jitter | +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ | 0 | 8000 | 0 | 0.1 | 800 | | | | 0.02 | 8000 | 160 | 0.12 | 800 | 0 | 0 | | 0.04 | 8000 | 320 | 0.14 | 800 | 0 | 0 | | 0.06 | 8000 | 480 | 0.16 | 800 | 0 | 0 | | 0.08 | 16000 | 640 | 0.18 | 800 | 0 | 0 | | 0.1 | 16000 | 960 | 0.2 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | | 0.12 | 16000 | 1280 | 0.22 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | | 0.14 | 8000 | 1600 | 0.24 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | | 0.16 | 8000 | 1760 | 0.26 | 320 | 0 | 0 | +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ Which I think avoids all the issues with the jitter etc. If a packet loss occur with the first packet with the new rate then there will be a jitter value here due to the definition of jitter as using the timestamp values of the older packet part of the calculation. 2. Also I think Section 2.2.2 points to a naive implementation of that method. As I see it when you do calculations based on that method you need to use the more expanded formula: timestamp = (capture_time-capture_start) * clock_rate + Start_offset Then every time you change the rate you need to set new values for "capture_start" and Start_offset: Start_offset = (capture_time_start_of_new_rate-capture_start) *previous_clock_rate capture_start = capture_time_start_of_new_rate 3. Section 4: An RTP Sender with RTCP turned off (i.e. by setting the RS and RR bandwidth modifiers defined in [RFC3556] to 0) SHOULD use a different SSRC for each different clock rate but MAY use different clock rates on the same SSRC as long as the RTP timestamp is calculated as described in Section 2.2.2. An RTP Sender with RTCP turned on MUST use a different SSRC for each different clock rate. An RTCP BYE MUST be sent and a new SSRC MUST be used if the clock rate switches back to a value already seen in the RTP stream. Here I found the recommendations to be the reverse of what I would expect. If you don't have RTCP then you can't handle and clock rate switch, because if a packet loss occurs either as the last or first packet of the switch the receiver loses sync. If you have RTCP then you can recover from that by reestablishing the sync point after the switch. Thus this is robuster against packet loss. 4. Section 4: To accelerate lip synchronization, the next compound RTCP packet sent by the RTP sender MUST contain multiple SR packets, the first one containing the mapping for the current clock rate and the next SR packets containing the mapping for the other clock rates seen during the last period. Isn't this going to create interoperability issues? The inclusion of multiple SRs in the same compound packet is that going to work well. I think my implementations would have issues with that. I think there are uncertainties in the interpretation of how one sends compound packets with multiple SSRCs being there source. I have run into this in another context, namely RTP Retransmissions using SSRC multiplexing. Then one end-point has two SSRCs used for transmitting packets. In that case including both in the same RTCP compound packet appeared to create issues in two regards: 1. Calculation of when these packets are allowed to send and how they fulfill the RTCP bandwidth rules. 2. How they handle the inter SSRC reporting. Because unless one of the SSRC's aren't reporting that they see the other SSRC's media stream, it will look like there is a bifurcation of the RTP session for any third party monitor. Do you have any data that such behavior will work with existing implementation? The above comments also applies to the second paragraph of section 5. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Sat Mar 26 02:45:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAC33A68FD for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 02:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.078, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nn9HVk9sdObn for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 02:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05303A6907 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 02:45:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-f7-4d8db6240cd2 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 80.85.09202.426BD8D4; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 10:47:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from [153.88.50.152] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 10:47:16 +0100 Message-ID: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 10:47:15 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avtext@ietf.org, draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr@tools.ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:45:43 -0000 Hi, I did a review of draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 and I am well aware of this document has already gone through WG last call but I think I should bring these up to discussion. My personal view is that they should be addressed prior to requsting publication of them. 1: General: The document appears to be missing any recommendations on when the block should be used within an RTP session. First, it hints to that after an acquisition is the right time. However, to me it looks like you could do partial reporting of some fields when certain events part way through acquisition of a complete session. Secondly, there appears to be no recommendations if one should transmit the same XR report several times, and what are the criteria for stop sending it? Thirdly, does one need to make it clearer that these should be only be sent part of regular compound packets? M2: Section 6: I am missing an analysis of the potential information leakage from the data reported. What are the risks of not having this encrypted? I think there should be some words on that aspect of the report. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From abegen@cisco.com Sat Mar 26 05:33:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB443A6934 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O1bSxUKP8-wZ for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6BB3A6875 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:33:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=abegen@cisco.com; l=3516; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1301142894; x=1302352494; h=subject:references:content-transfer-encoding:from: in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:cc:mime-version; bh=4jEovqyc8HZx2+PztQ1E+2isWAX0WVjPc4EnEK8xaCg=; b=ghD7+sBrvOgiuccEl+6C0kIgtaCqe0ovYuCPoGcYz+KQ39ijNM1XrApB aPIP4fMKzKmFC8uxyHXeGTAWU1N+dpTx8Rb/4GvWEf0fUl5OLkPx848DQ Mjheb8F0QqDYmkmz+pXY/ETev6k8cCy+qT+tUlOiqRBXipzvAiToRsfJJ A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhsGANDcjU2rRDoH/2dsb2JhbACDf0agN2QCd4hrnWeLO5BRAoElg0t3BIx1g1o X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.63,247,1299456000"; d="scan'208";a="671097173" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Mar 2011 12:34:54 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p2QCYsIT020704; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 12:34:54 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:34:54 -0700 Received: from 72.163.62.205 ([72.163.62.205]) by xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 12:34:53 +0000 References: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" thread-topic: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 thread-index: AcvrsjU3jnDegHYiStCO0ksnBa2GyQ== In-Reply-To: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <3A1D57F7-DAE9-4A41-9F13-2319C84E2FBF@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 13:34:46 +0100 To: "Magnus Westerlund" MIME-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8F190) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2011 12:34:54.0434 (UTC) FILETIME=[357DE420:01CBEBB2] Cc: avtext@ietf.org, draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 12:33:20 -0000 VGhhbmtzIE1hZ251cy4gDQoNCk9uIE1hciAyNiwgMjAxMSwgYXQgMTA6NDcgQU0sICJNYWdudXMg V2VzdGVybHVuZCIgPG1hZ251cy53ZXN0ZXJsdW5kQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4g SGksDQo+IA0KPiBJIGRpZCBhIHJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWF2dGV4dC1tdWx0aWNhc3Qt YWNxLXJ0Y3AteHItMDAgYW5kIEkgYW0NCj4gd2VsbCBhd2FyZSBvZiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGhh cyBhbHJlYWR5IGdvbmUgdGhyb3VnaCBXRyBsYXN0IGNhbGwgYnV0IEkNCj4gdGhpbmsgSSBzaG91 bGQgYnJpbmcgdGhlc2UgdXAgdG8gZGlzY3Vzc2lvbi4gTXkgcGVyc29uYWwgdmlldyBpcyB0aGF0 DQo+IHRoZXkgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGFkZHJlc3NlZCBwcmlvciB0byByZXF1c3RpbmcgcHVibGljYXRp b24gb2YgdGhlbS4NCj4gDQo+IDE6IEdlbmVyYWw6IFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBhcHBlYXJzIHRvIGJl IG1pc3NpbmcgYW55IHJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9ucyBvbg0KPiB3aGVuIHRoZSBibG9jayBzaG91bGQg YmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoaW4gYW4gUlRQIHNlc3Npb24uDQo+IA0KPiBGaXJzdCwgaXQgaGludHMgdG8g dGhhdCBhZnRlciBhbiBhY3F1aXNpdGlvbiBpcyB0aGUgcmlnaHQgdGltZS4gSG93ZXZlciwNCj4g dG8gbWUgaXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZSB5b3UgY291bGQgZG8gcGFydGlhbCByZXBvcnRpbmcgb2Ygc29t ZSBmaWVsZHMgd2hlbg0KPiBjZXJ0YWluIGV2ZW50cyBwYXJ0IHdheSB0aHJvdWdoIGFjcXVpc2l0 aW9uIG9mIGEgY29tcGxldGUgc2Vzc2lvbi4NCg0KUGFydGlhbCByZXBvcnRpbmcgaXMgb2YgbGl0 dGxlIHVzZS4gU2luY2UgdGhpcyBkYXRhIGlzIHVzZWZ1bCBmb3IgbG9uZ2VyLXRlcm0gcHVycG9z ZXMuIFRoYXQgaXMsIGl0IGlzIG5vdCB1c2VkIHRvIG1ha2UgaW1tZWRpYXRlIGNoYW5nZXMgaW4g dGhlIHN5c3RlbS4gVGh1cyBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSByZXBvcnQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHJlcG9ydGVkIG9u Y2UgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBpcyBjb21wbGV0ZS4gDQo+IA0KPiBTZWNvbmRseSwgdGhlcmUgYXBwZWFy cyB0byBiZSBubyByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMgaWYgb25lIHNob3VsZCB0cmFuc21pdA0KPiB0aGUg c2FtZSBYUiByZXBvcnQgc2V2ZXJhbCB0aW1lcywgYW5kIHdoYXQgYXJlIHRoZSBjcml0ZXJpYSBm b3Igc3RvcA0KPiBzZW5kaW5nIGl0Pw0KDQpPbmNlLiBJIGRvbid0IHNlZSBtdWNoIHBvaW50IGlu IHJlZHVuZGFuY3kgaGVyZS53ZSBjYW4gbWVudGlvbiB0aGlzLiANCj4gDQo+IFRoaXJkbHksIGRv ZXMgb25lIG5lZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBpdCBjbGVhcmVyIHRoYXQgdGhlc2Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIG9ubHkg YmUNCj4gc2VudCBwYXJ0IG9mIHJlZ3VsYXIgY29tcG91bmQgcGFja2V0cz8NCj4gDQpZZXMuIA0K DQo+IE0yOiBTZWN0aW9uIDY6DQo+IEkgYW0gbWlzc2luZyBhbiBhbmFseXNpcyBvZiB0aGUgcG90 ZW50aWFsIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGxlYWthZ2UgZnJvbSB0aGUNCj4gZGF0YSByZXBvcnRlZC4gV2hh dCBhcmUgdGhlIHJpc2tzIG9mIG5vdCBoYXZpbmcgdGhpcyBlbmNyeXB0ZWQ/IEkgdGhpbmsNCj4g dGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHNvbWUgd29yZHMgb24gdGhhdCBhc3BlY3Qgb2YgdGhlIHJlcG9ydC4N Cg0KVGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHJlcG9ydGVkIGluIHRoZSByZXBvcnQgY291bGQgYmUgc3RvbGVu IGFzIGFueSBvdGhlciBydGNwIHJlcG9ydCBkYXRhIGlmIG5vdCBlbmNyeXB0ZWQgcHJvcGVybHku IEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGluY3JlYXNlZCByaXNrIGhlcmUuIElmIG9uZSBpcyBjb25jZXJuZWQgYWJv dXQgYW55IGxlYWthZ2UgYW5kIHRoZXkgcHJvdGVjdCB0aGVpciByZWd1bGFyIHJ0Y3AgcmVwb3J0 cywgdGhleSBzaG91bGQgcHJvdGVjdCB0aGlzIHhyIGFzIHdlbGwuIEJleW9uZCB0aGF0LCB0aGVy ZSBpcyBub3QgbXVjaCB0byBvZmZlciBJTU8uIA0KDQotYWNiZWdlbg0KDQo+IA0KPiBDaGVlcnMN Cj4gDQo+IE1hZ251cyBXZXN0ZXJsdW5kDQo+IA0KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IE11bHRpbWVk aWEgVGVjaG5vbG9naWVzLCBFcmljc3NvbiBSZXNlYXJjaCBFQUIvVFZNDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0NCj4gRXJpY3Nzb24gQUIgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCBQaG9uZSAgKzQ2IDEwIDcxNDgyODcN Cj4gRsOkcsO2Z2F0YW4gNiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8IE1vYmlsZSArNDYgNzMgMDk0OTA3OQ0K PiBTRS0xNjQgODAgU3RvY2tob2xtLCBTd2VkZW58IG1haWx0bzogbWFnbnVzLndlc3Rlcmx1bmRA ZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gYXZ0ZXh0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBhdnRleHRA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hdnRleHQN Cg== From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Sat Mar 26 05:59:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E859728C119 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DHNacpxVCmDJ for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9EE28C10A for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bbbae000005311-2e-4d8de38b88db Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 56.E6.21265.B83ED8D4; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 14:00:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [153.88.50.152] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Sat, 26 Mar 2011 14:00:59 +0100 Message-ID: <4D8DE38A.3010506@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 14:00:58 +0100 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" References: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> <3A1D57F7-DAE9-4A41-9F13-2319C84E2FBF@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3A1D57F7-DAE9-4A41-9F13-2319C84E2FBF@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 12:59:26 -0000 See inline Ali C. Begen (abegen) skrev 2011-03-26 13:34: > Thanks Magnus. > > On Mar 26, 2011, at 10:47 AM, "Magnus Westerlund" > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I did a review of draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 and I >> am well aware of this document has already gone through WG last >> call but I think I should bring these up to discussion. My personal >> view is that they should be addressed prior to requsting >> publication of them. >> >> 1: General: The document appears to be missing any recommendations >> on when the block should be used within an RTP session. >> >> First, it hints to that after an acquisition is the right time. >> However, to me it looks like you could do partial reporting of some >> fields when certain events part way through acquisition of a >> complete session. > > Partial reporting is of little use. Since this data is useful for > longer-term purposes. That is, it is not used to make immediate > changes in the system. Thus I think the report should be reported > once everything is complete. >> >> Secondly, there appears to be no recommendations if one should >> transmit the same XR report several times, and what are the >> criteria for stop sending it? > > Once. I don't see much point in redundancy here.we can mention this. Please mention it. I could see a point of transmitting it 3 times for improved resiliency. But, possible then there should be a signalling parameter for the number of retransmissions. However, I don't have a strong view on this. My only concern is if the ones monitoring the system are fine with basically losing packet loss rate worth of reports. This might be significant if there is correlation between the packet loss rate and the reason for failing acquisitions. In this case one wouldn't learn about these. > >> >> Thirdly, does one need to make it clearer that these should be only >> be sent part of regular compound packets? >> > Yes. > >> M2: Section 6: I am missing an analysis of the potential >> information leakage from the data reported. What are the risks of >> not having this encrypted? I think there should be some words on >> that aspect of the report. > > The information reported in the report could be stolen as any other > rtcp report data if not encrypted properly. I don't see increased > risk here. If one is concerned about any leakage and they protect > their regular rtcp reports, they should protect this xr as well. > Beyond that, there is not much to offer IMO. Ok, then I think such a statement should be part of the security section. That is to show that the information leakage has been considered but that there is nothing especially dangerous here from a confidentiality point. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Sun Mar 27 13:43:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134ED3A6941 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.409, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Syr3+Vr4OoU5 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail5.alcatel.fr (smail5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225D53A693B for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail5.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2RKiviL007480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:44:57 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:44:57 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:44:55 +0200 Thread-Topic: IETF #80 slide presentations for AVTEXT Thread-Index: Acvsv9QOcnfi2N4oSqu2Ikwt4aFnOw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.13 Subject: [avtext] IETF #80 slide presentations for AVTEXT X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:43:23 -0000 All but two of the presentations for the AVT slot are up on the meeting mat= erials area https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/80/materials.html Please send me and Magnus the remaining slides as soon as possible. Regards Keith From petithug@acm.org Sun Mar 27 20:33:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565183A67AF for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUQg3QNgmjkC for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.implementers.org (server.implementers.org [69.55.225.91]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D4F3A67B6 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by server.implementers.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F27D3DBCC046; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:34:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [130.129.68.168] (server.implementers.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B7D2FDBCC044; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4D9001DB.3050106@acm.org> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:34:51 +0200 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.4) Gecko/20100718 Icedove/3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund References: <4D8B107E.9000809@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4D8B107E.9000809@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-petithuguenin-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:33:19 -0000 Hi Magnus, Thanks for the review, and sorry to not responding sooner. On 03/24/2011 10:35 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > This mail is my personal opinions and not as a WG chair. > > I have reviewed the draft and think it is a reasonable starting point > for meeting the WG's milestone. > > However, I do have some technical comments. > > 1. Why haven't you considered to use the actual clock derivation method > that results in a correct result assuming no packet loss occurs, and > where RTCP will work to correct it when it occurs. This formula looks good, but remember that what I put in the draft is not what is the correct formula or what formula I would have used, but the formula that, after talking with few fellow implementers and trying to decipher FOSS implementations, is used in most implementations. My goal my this draft is not to show people what they should have done - which is pointless - but what they should do in future implementations so it works with existing implementations. So if you say that the formula here is used in actually deployed implementations, then I will be happy to add it to the list (but it cannot replace the existing formula, because this is what is used in the field). > > In my view the method in 2.2.1 is incorrect in one important detail: > > timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - > previous_capture_time) * current_clock_rate > > The "current_clock_rate" should actually be previous clock rate. If one > uses the clock rate from the previous packet to cover the time period up > to a switch then one avoids any discontinuities and the jitter doesn't > make a jump before one knows what the new clock rate is. > > It is also consistent with logical thinking for any media that had > duration. Take for example audio with 20 ms frame lengths, the RTP TS > value for a packet with one frame provides the time at the start of the > frame. Then the frame has a duration of 20 ms, thus resulting in that > the timestamp value of any next frame that are aligned with the current > will be starting at last_TS+0.02*clock_rate. > > Thus resulting in that the formula should read: > timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - > previous_capture_time) * previous_clock_rate > > One also needs to reconsider the arrival formulas to use previous: > (1) current_time_capture = (current_timestamp - previous_timestamp) / > previous_clock_rate + previous_time_capture > (2) transit = previous_clock_rate * (time_arrival - > current_time_capture) > (3) previous_time_capture = current_time_capture > (4) previous_clock_rate = current_clock_rate > > > Using these formulas to update table 2: > > +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ > | Capt. | Clock | RTP | Arrival | Transit | Jitter | Average | > | time | rate | timestamp | time | | | jitter | > +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ > | 0 | 8000 | 0 | 0.1 | 800 | | | > | 0.02 | 8000 | 160 | 0.12 | 800 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.04 | 8000 | 320 | 0.14 | 800 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.06 | 8000 | 480 | 0.16 | 800 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.08 | 16000 | 640 | 0.18 | 800 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.1 | 16000 | 960 | 0.2 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.12 | 16000 | 1280 | 0.22 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.14 | 8000 | 1600 | 0.24 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | > | 0.16 | 8000 | 1760 | 0.26 | 320 | 0 | 0 | > +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ > > > Which I think avoids all the issues with the jitter etc. > > If a packet loss occur with the first packet with the new rate then > there will be a jitter value here due to the definition of jitter as > using the timestamp values of the older packet part of the calculation. > > > 2. Also I think Section 2.2.2 points to a naive implementation of that > method. As I see it when you do calculations based on that method you > need to use the more expanded formula: A the difference of the formula in 2.2.1 (which is what people actually use)), the formula in 2.2.2 is the one that the I-D tentatively set as the formula for future implementations that does not want to use a different SSRC (more about this below). Now you do not explain why this formula is better than the simpler formula capture_time * clock_rate. See also my response to the next comments. > > timestamp = (capture_time-capture_start) * clock_rate + Start_offset > > Then every time you change the rate you need to set new values for > "capture_start" and Start_offset: > > Start_offset = (capture_time_start_of_new_rate-capture_start) > *previous_clock_rate > capture_start = capture_time_start_of_new_rate > > 3. Section 4: > > An RTP Sender with RTCP turned off (i.e. by setting the RS and RR > bandwidth modifiers defined in [RFC3556] to 0) SHOULD use a different > SSRC for each different clock rate but MAY use different clock rates > on the same SSRC as long as the RTP timestamp is calculated as > described in Section 2.2.2. > > An RTP Sender with RTCP turned on MUST use a different SSRC for each > different clock rate. An RTCP BYE MUST be sent and a new SSRC MUST > be used if the clock rate switches back to a value already seen in > the RTP stream. > > Here I found the recommendations to be the reverse of what I would > expect. If you don't have RTCP then you can't handle and clock rate > switch, because if a packet loss occurs either as the last or first > packet of the switch the receiver loses sync. The reason for this recommendation is that most VoIP implementations do not implement RTCP, do not support multiple SSRC, and will never support multiple SSRC (nobody managed to convince them to do it in the last ten years, that will not happen now, it's a lost cause). So that recommendation was to try to help a little bit with this situation. Honestly I'd rather put a "MUST use a different SSRC" here, and get completely rid of the formula in the previous section of this email (that does not change that we need to interpret these formulas correctly on the receiving side, but a least we do not have to recommend a formula for sending as we would always use different SSRCs in new implementations). > > If you have RTCP then you can recover from that by reestablishing the > sync point after the switch. Thus this is robuster against packet loss. > > > 4. Section 4: > > To accelerate lip synchronization, the next compound RTCP packet sent > by the RTP sender MUST contain multiple SR packets, the first one > containing the mapping for the current clock rate and the next SR > packets containing the mapping for the other clock rates seen during > the last period. > > Isn't this going to create interoperability issues? The inclusion of > multiple SRs in the same compound packet is that going to work well. I > think my implementations would have issues with that. I think there are > uncertainties in the interpretation of how one sends compound packets > with multiple SSRCs being there source. I have run into this in another > context, namely RTP Retransmissions using SSRC multiplexing. Then one > end-point has two SSRCs used for transmitting packets. In that case > including both in the same RTCP compound packet appeared to create > issues in two regards: > > 1. Calculation of when these packets are allowed to send and how they > fulfill the RTCP bandwidth rules. > > 2. How they handle the inter SSRC reporting. Because unless one of the > SSRC's aren't reporting that they see the other SSRC's media stream, it > will look like there is a bifurcation of the RTP session for any third > party monitor. > > Do you have any data that such behavior will work with existing > implementation? Well, that was Colin Perkins and David Oran's recommendation (10/15/2009 emails). I can revisit that if needed. > > The above comments also applies to the second paragraph of section 5. -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Professional email: petithug@acm.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 00:14:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45B33A6821 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.396, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Rl9Kenz8qHj for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEED3A6875 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2S7FroN018479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:15:53 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:15:53 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:13:46 +0200 Thread-Topic: IETF #80 slide presentations for AVTEXT Thread-Index: Acvsv9QOcnfi2N4oSqu2Ikwt4aFnOwAV59fw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: Re: [avtext] IETF #80 slide presentations for AVTEXT X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:14:19 -0000 All slides for AVTEXT are now there. Apparently Marc sent his slides so early that I missed them in working thro= ugh and locating them all. Moral, don't assume next time that all authors will leave it to the last mi= nute. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Sent: 27 March 2011 21:45 > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] IETF #80 slide presentations for AVTEXT >=20 > All but two of the presentations for the AVT slot are up on the meeting > materials area >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/80/materials.html >=20 > Please send me and Magnus the remaining slides as soon as possible. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Keith > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Mon Mar 28 00:46:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBF93A68AD for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pV56PlHXTWHy for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367D23A68D2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-06-4d903d28a518 Received: from esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4E.6E.09202.82D309D4; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:47:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [153.88.17.31] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:47:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4D903D27.50609@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:47:51 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Petit-Huguenin References: <4D8B107E.9000809@ericsson.com> <4D9001DB.3050106@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <4D9001DB.3050106@acm.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-petithuguenin-avtext-multiple-clock-rates-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:46:18 -0000 Marc, WG See Inline Marc Petit-Huguenin skrev 2011-03-28 05:34: > Hi Magnus, > > Thanks for the review, and sorry to not responding sooner. > > On 03/24/2011 10:35 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This mail is my personal opinions and not as a WG chair. >> >> I have reviewed the draft and think it is a reasonable starting point >> for meeting the WG's milestone. >> >> However, I do have some technical comments. >> >> 1. Why haven't you considered to use the actual clock derivation method >> that results in a correct result assuming no packet loss occurs, and >> where RTCP will work to correct it when it occurs. > > This formula looks good, but remember that what I put in the draft is not what > is the correct formula or what formula I would have used, but the formula that, > after talking with few fellow implementers and trying to decipher FOSS > implementations, is used in most implementations. My goal my this draft is not > to show people what they should have done - which is pointless - but what they > should do in future implementations so it works with existing implementations. > > So if you say that the formula here is used in actually deployed > implementations, then I will be happy to add it to the list (but it cannot > replace the existing formula, because this is what is used in the field). > Ok, I did misunderstand that. I think one should use this formula for how one should implement this. >> >> In my view the method in 2.2.1 is incorrect in one important detail: >> >> timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - >> previous_capture_time) * current_clock_rate >> >> The "current_clock_rate" should actually be previous clock rate. If one >> uses the clock rate from the previous packet to cover the time period up >> to a switch then one avoids any discontinuities and the jitter doesn't >> make a jump before one knows what the new clock rate is. >> >> It is also consistent with logical thinking for any media that had >> duration. Take for example audio with 20 ms frame lengths, the RTP TS >> value for a packet with one frame provides the time at the start of the >> frame. Then the frame has a duration of 20 ms, thus resulting in that >> the timestamp value of any next frame that are aligned with the current >> will be starting at last_TS+0.02*clock_rate. >> >> Thus resulting in that the formula should read: >> timestamp = previous_timestamp + (current_capture_time - >> previous_capture_time) * previous_clock_rate >> >> One also needs to reconsider the arrival formulas to use previous: >> (1) current_time_capture = (current_timestamp - previous_timestamp) / >> previous_clock_rate + previous_time_capture >> (2) transit = previous_clock_rate * (time_arrival - >> current_time_capture) >> (3) previous_time_capture = current_time_capture >> (4) previous_clock_rate = current_clock_rate >> >> >> Using these formulas to update table 2: >> >> +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ >> | Capt. | Clock | RTP | Arrival | Transit | Jitter | Average | >> | time | rate | timestamp | time | | | jitter | >> +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ >> | 0 | 8000 | 0 | 0.1 | 800 | | | >> | 0.02 | 8000 | 160 | 0.12 | 800 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.04 | 8000 | 320 | 0.14 | 800 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.06 | 8000 | 480 | 0.16 | 800 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.08 | 16000 | 640 | 0.18 | 800 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.1 | 16000 | 960 | 0.2 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.12 | 16000 | 1280 | 0.22 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.14 | 8000 | 1600 | 0.24 | 1600 | 0 | 0 | >> | 0.16 | 8000 | 1760 | 0.26 | 320 | 0 | 0 | >> +-------+-------+-----------+---------+---------+--------+----------+ >> >> >> Which I think avoids all the issues with the jitter etc. >> >> If a packet loss occur with the first packet with the new rate then >> there will be a jitter value here due to the definition of jitter as >> using the timestamp values of the older packet part of the calculation. >> >> >> 2. Also I think Section 2.2.2 points to a naive implementation of that >> method. As I see it when you do calculations based on that method you >> need to use the more expanded formula: > > A the difference of the formula in 2.2.1 (which is what people actually use)), > the formula in 2.2.2 is the one that the I-D tentatively set as the formula for > future implementations that does not want to use a different SSRC (more about > this below). > > Now you do not explain why this formula is better than the simpler formula > capture_time * clock_rate. See also my response to the next comments. Well, it avoids the jump backwards in TS that you got unless you adjust the start point. > >> >> timestamp = (capture_time-capture_start) * clock_rate + Start_offset >> >> Then every time you change the rate you need to set new values for >> "capture_start" and Start_offset: >> >> Start_offset = (capture_time_start_of_new_rate-capture_start) >> *previous_clock_rate >> capture_start = capture_time_start_of_new_rate >> >> 3. Section 4: >> >> An RTP Sender with RTCP turned off (i.e. by setting the RS and RR >> bandwidth modifiers defined in [RFC3556] to 0) SHOULD use a different >> SSRC for each different clock rate but MAY use different clock rates >> on the same SSRC as long as the RTP timestamp is calculated as >> described in Section 2.2.2. >> >> An RTP Sender with RTCP turned on MUST use a different SSRC for each >> different clock rate. An RTCP BYE MUST be sent and a new SSRC MUST >> be used if the clock rate switches back to a value already seen in >> the RTP stream. >> >> Here I found the recommendations to be the reverse of what I would >> expect. If you don't have RTCP then you can't handle and clock rate >> switch, because if a packet loss occurs either as the last or first >> packet of the switch the receiver loses sync. > > The reason for this recommendation is that most VoIP implementations do not > implement RTCP, do not support multiple SSRC, and will never support multiple > SSRC (nobody managed to convince them to do it in the last ten years, that will > not happen now, it's a lost cause). So that recommendation was to try to help a > little bit with this situation. Honestly I'd rather put a "MUST use a different > SSRC" here, and get completely rid of the formula in the previous section of > this email (that does not change that we need to interpret these formulas > correctly on the receiving side, but a least we do not have to recommend a > formula for sending as we would always use different SSRCs in new implementations). > I do see two problems here. One is how well will this single SSRC implementation support an SSRC switch? That appears to at least be potentially an issue. Secondly, I think we should recommend a good formula that works. Yes, without the RTCP you can still become un-synchronized when switching and facing a packet loss. But apparently these VoIP vendors don't care about that if they only have a single SSRC and no RTCP. >> >> If you have RTCP then you can recover from that by reestablishing the >> sync point after the switch. Thus this is robuster against packet loss. >> >> >> 4. Section 4: >> >> To accelerate lip synchronization, the next compound RTCP packet sent >> by the RTP sender MUST contain multiple SR packets, the first one >> containing the mapping for the current clock rate and the next SR >> packets containing the mapping for the other clock rates seen during >> the last period. >> >> Isn't this going to create interoperability issues? The inclusion of >> multiple SRs in the same compound packet is that going to work well. I >> think my implementations would have issues with that. I think there are >> uncertainties in the interpretation of how one sends compound packets >> with multiple SSRCs being there source. I have run into this in another >> context, namely RTP Retransmissions using SSRC multiplexing. Then one >> end-point has two SSRCs used for transmitting packets. In that case >> including both in the same RTCP compound packet appeared to create >> issues in two regards: >> >> 1. Calculation of when these packets are allowed to send and how they >> fulfill the RTCP bandwidth rules. >> >> 2. How they handle the inter SSRC reporting. Because unless one of the >> SSRC's aren't reporting that they see the other SSRC's media stream, it >> will look like there is a bifurcation of the RTP session for any third >> party monitor. >> >> Do you have any data that such behavior will work with existing >> implementation? > > Well, that was Colin Perkins and David Oran's recommendation (10/15/2009 > emails). I can revisit that if needed. Well, I think one should test this at SIPIT before actually recommending it. I see it as being problematic. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Mon Mar 28 02:00:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83303A6977 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyY+LzvZm-n6 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340453A683A for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7c6dae0000023f2-c6-4d904e7f52e1 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 71.4D.09202.F7E409D4; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:01:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [153.88.17.31] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:01:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4D904E7E.6090504@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:01:50 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "avtext@ietf.org" , Jinwei Xia X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [avtext] comments on draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:00:16 -0000 Hi, I have reviewed this document and have some comments. 1. Structure of the document issues: a. I am missing an applicability statement that discusses which cases of topologies the splicer functions in. b. Not clear separation of section 3 and 4, both appears to contain normative statements on how things should function in both. If the intention is requirements and specification, then I think it needs to be clearer separation. 2. I am also missing a discussion on the RTP timestamp handling issues. That clearly also needs to be covered to ensure that the receiver gets a consistent stream. 3. I also see a clear issue for a translator to deal with the RTCP translations towards the main source. My understanding is that the splicer will need to translate any RTCP Report blocks coming from down stream to the splicer, even when the substitute content is being forwarded by the splicer. I can see how this can be made to work if there are no media adaptation happening. But if the media streams are being adapted then this becomes problematic. This as any feedback relates to the stream actually being sent. So the translated RTCP needs to report to the main stream how the main stream would fair down stream of the splicer, without actually having sent it. I don't see how this can be done in a reasonable and robust way. For example if the substitute stream is higher bandwidth than the main stream and that stream is being reported as causing congestion. Then what does one report to the main stream sender? Because one can't know if that stream would cause congestion. Can someone please explain how to support this case. I starting to think that a mixer model might be better. Yes, that separates the flows. And for adaptation there might actually be need for support of special mechanism to provide upstream information, like TMMBR to cap the bandwidth. 4. Section 3, requirement comments: REQ-1: Splicer MUST operate in either unicast or multicast session environment. Shouldn't this be worded as: Splicer MUST be able operate in both unicast or multicast session environment. REQ-2: The RTP packets whose payloads are replaced by substitutive content are required to keep their RTP header information to be consistent with those of main RTP packets whose payloads are unaltered. I think "Keep" is the wrong word here. I think resulting in a consistent stream. REQ-2: "The value of SSRC field in RTP header MUST be same as the value of corresponding field in main content RTP header, while the value of payload type field SHOULD be same as the value of corresponding field in main content RTP header. Note that in some cases, it may be necessary to transcode the substitutive content to ensure the payload type is the same, and that this may be prohibitively expensive, so it might be acceptable to leave the payload untranscoded." First, I think this isn't requirements, they are how one should implement it. I also think, one could clarify that if one has signalled the different RTP payload types then one can actually switch between them. IF that is supported by client depends on the usage. REQ-4: Splicer MUST be backward compatible with basic characteristics of [RFC3550], e.g., SSRC identifier collision resolution and loop detection. Shouldn't this also include certain RTP extensions also? REQ-5: Splicer MUST have the capability to correctly handle any packet loss events regardless of whether the lost content is main content or substitutive content. Would it be better to formulate this as "not add extra impact of any packet loss events regardless of whether the lost content is main content or substitutive content Section 5, first paragraph on page 8. I would consider writing some psudo code for these translation cases. Section 6. "Even if no new substitutive content will be inserted, the Translator still needs to modify the main RTP packets, and to recalculate the UDP/IP checksum until the main RTP session ends. If Translator serves multiple main RTP streams simultaneously, this may lead to large overhead on the Translator." I don't think this translation is any form of extreme case of burden. Yes, you will need to update both some RTP header fields. Well, you anyway would need to update the address fields and that is part of the pseudo header anyway. So you can't do relaying without paying this cost. And there are hardware off-loading for UDP checksums. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 03:31:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAC93A689F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ezk521XUkhZ for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93413A6920 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SAV81M024037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:33:05 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:32:36 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:29:29 +0200 Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level Thread-Index: AcvtMGuQyLwRsi6NTC+7+2jR2aAdrA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:31:33 -0000 I had a brief scan of this document and came up with the following comments= : 1) I suspect that the reference to RFC 5285 will need to end up being a nor= mative reference. While the text currently doesn't support this, I suspect = that it is the existing text that is at fault, and this therefore needs to = be revised. 2) Section 3: The audio level for digital silence (e.g. all-0 pcmu audio), for example for a muted audio source, MAY be represented as 127 (-127 dBov), regardless of the dynamic range of the encoded audio format. I am unsure of the meaning of the RFC 2119 language here. Firstly I thought= this was mainly an informative section, giving an overview of the existing= status and what was needed, and therefore if there is the need for normati= ve language it should be in a different section. Secondly "MAY" defines an = option, and I do not see what the option is being defined here. Is this a s= tatement that it is possibly to code this as value 127 (in which case "can"= ) or something else. 3) Section 6: Thus, while information about the correspondance between dB SPL and dBov, or encoded audio, could be useful, this document does not attempt to define it. If there are circumstances in which this information would be useful, a separate header extension would be straightforward to define. (The information carried by such a header extension could indeed be useful independently from the information in the header extension defined by this document.) I wasn't sure whether this was expressing an open issue or not. If it is in= tended to include material on this in the draft, then we need to define it.= If it is merely expressing that such material is out of scope, then it sho= uld be much more explicitly stated as out of scope, or just deleted entirel= y. 4) Section 7: A malicious endpoint could choose to set the values in this header extension falsely, so as to falsely claim that audio or voice is or is not present. It is not clear what could be gained by falsely claiming that audio is not present, but an endpoint falsely claiming that audio is present could perform a denial-of-service attack on an audio conference, so as to send silence to suppress other conference members' audio. Thus, a device relying on audio level data from untrusted endpoints SHOULD periodically audit the level information transmitted, taking appropriate corrective action if endpoints appear to be sending incorrect data. (Note that endpoints MAY choose to measure audio levels prior to encoding, so some degree of discrepancy SHOULD be tolerated.) I do not think the RFC 2119 language currently stated in the parentheses is= justified. If it is justified, then we need to more clearly state what the= requirements really are in a manner that might actually be tested, or at l= east provide a clear understanding of what is conformant or what is not. I = suspect that this text should really just be informative. 5) Section 8: Add a note to RFC editor saying replace RFC XXXX by the number of this RFC. 6) General: I suspect the editors could do with putting the two drafts side by side and= aligning the text from one to the other in the areas where they are both t= rying to say the same thing. This is not a call for a single document - I t= hink they are distinct in that respect, but there are similarities in the r= equirements and we should only say similar things in the same way. 7) General: Why are all the examples mu law specific? Regards Keith From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 03:31:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC873A6A31 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A5ebYJTSaf7o for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail5.alcatel.fr (smail5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84363A6A5A for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 03:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail5.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SAXB4u020048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:33:12 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:32:38 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:29:28 +0200 Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level Thread-Index: AcvtMwRpA6PmGwPXTFWHJgaULZljlQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.13 Subject: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:31:37 -0000 Again a brief scan and identified some comments: 1) Section 3: This document describes an RTP header extension that allows mixers to indicate the audio-level of every conference participant (CSRC) in addition to simply indicating their on/off status. This new header extension is based on the "General Mechanism for RTP Header Extensions" [RFC5285]. RFC 5285 is a normative reference, and therefore the use of the term "is ba= sed" is inappropriate. Need to be much more precise about how RFC 5285 is f= ollowed (although some of that is covered by later references. 2) Section 4: The 4-bit len field is the number minus one of data bytes (i.e. audio level values) transported in this header extension element following the one-byte header. Therefore, the value zero in this field indicates that one byte of data follows. A value of 15 is not allowed by this specification and it MUST NOT be used as the RTP header can carry a maximum of 15 CSRC IDs. The maximum value allowed is therefore 14 indicating a following sequence of 15 audio level values. I suspect that any RFC 2119 language here actually belongs in a procedural = section, but I was also unclear what the real conformance requirement was h= ere. Surely the main conformance requirement is to carry 15 or less audio l= evels. This results in a maximum encoding of 14. 3) Section 6: Conferencing clients that support audio level indicators and have no mixing capabilities SHOULD always include the direction parameter in the "extmap" attribute setting it to "recvonly". Conference focus entities with mixing capabilities MAY omit the direction or set it to "sendrecv" in SDP offers. Such entities SHOULD set it to "sendonly" in SDP answers to offers with a "recvonly" parameter and to "sendrecv" when answering other "sendrecv" offers. Is such a requirement in scope of this document? I suspect it ends up updat= ing an existing MMUSIC RFC. 4) Section 6: An example SDP offer/answer exchange between two conference focus entities with mixing capabilities negotiating an audio stream with bidirectional flwo of audio level information. Typo "flow" 5) Section 7: 2. Furthermore, the fact that audio level values would not be protected even in an SRTP session may be of concern in some cases where the activity of a particular participant in a conference is confidential. Change "may" to "can" or "might" to avoid RFC 2119 style sentences. 6) Section 8: Add a note to RFC editor saying replace RFC XXXX by the number of this RFC. 7) Section 12.2 RFC 3920, RFC 3551 appear to not be used as references. 8) General: I suspect the editors could do with putting the two drafts side by side and= aligning the text from one to the other in the areas where they are both t= rying to say the same thing. This is not a call for a single document - I t= hink they are distinct in that respect, but there are similarities in the r= equirements and we should only say similar things in the same way. Regards Keith From jonathan@vidyo.com Mon Mar 28 06:38:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FB33A6878 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ul9puMzECZqR for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.myoutlookonline.com (mx1.myoutlookonline.com [64.95.72.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8AE3A680D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from st23.mx1.myoutlookonline.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.myoutlookonline.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C50416F23; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:40:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by SpamTitan at mail.lan Received: from HUB015.mail.lan (unknown [10.110.2.1]) by mx1.myoutlookonline.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180B1416C05; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BE235.mail.lan ([10.110.32.235]) by HUB015.mail.lan ([10.110.17.15]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:39:15 -0400 From: Jonathan Lennox To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:40:08 -0400 Thread-Topic: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level Thread-Index: AcvtTY/2zMxodh/NQFufj9lNY+9GqA== Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:38:35 -0000 On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:29 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > I had a brief scan of this document and came up with the following commen= ts: >=20 > 1) I suspect that the reference to RFC 5285 will need to end up being a n= ormative reference. While the text currently doesn't support this, I suspec= t that it is the existing text that is at fault, and this therefore needs t= o be revised. RFC 5285 is already listed as a Normative Reference, and I certainly always= intended that it should be one. Is there some text that implies otherwise= ? > 2) Section 3: >=20 > The audio level for digital silence (e.g. all-0 pcmu audio), for > example for a muted audio source, MAY be represented as 127 (-127 > dBov), regardless of the dynamic range of the encoded audio format. >=20 > I am unsure of the meaning of the RFC 2119 language here. Firstly I thoug= ht this was mainly an informative section, giving an overview of the existi= ng status and what was needed, and therefore if there is the need for norma= tive language it should be in a different section. Secondly "MAY" defines a= n option, and I do not see what the option is being defined here. Is this a= statement that it is possibly to code this as value 127 (in which case "ca= n") or something else. The option being defined is this: a particular payload format may have (ind= eed, probably has) a dynamic range of less than 127 dB, and so under a stri= ct reading of the definition of audio level, the audio level of digital sil= ence would therefore have to be greater than -127. This gives the option o= f instead coding digital silence as the minimum value. It would probably be better to move this definition to another section of t= he document, i.e. the definition of the audio level, to make it more clearl= y normative. > 3) Section 6: >=20 > Thus, while information about the correspondance between dB SPL and > dBov, or encoded audio, could be useful, this document does not > attempt to define it. If there are circumstances in which this > information would be useful, a separate header extension would be > straightforward to define. (The information carried by such a header > extension could indeed be useful independently from the information > in the header extension defined by this document.) >=20 > I wasn't sure whether this was expressing an open issue or not. If it is = intended to include material on this in the draft, then we need to define i= t. If it is merely expressing that such material is out of scope, then it s= hould be much more explicitly stated as out of scope, or just deleted entir= ely. This is in response to a comment that was raised at a previous IETF; this i= s summarizing the decision the authors made in response, that it should be = out of scope of this document. I can either clarify this further, or drop = the section entirely, as people prefer. > 4) Section 7: >=20 > A malicious endpoint could choose to set the values in this header > extension falsely, so as to falsely claim that audio or voice is or > is not present. It is not clear what could be gained by falsely > claiming that audio is not present, but an endpoint falsely claiming > that audio is present could perform a denial-of-service attack on an > audio conference, so as to send silence to suppress other conference > members' audio. Thus, a device relying on audio level data from > untrusted endpoints SHOULD periodically audit the level information > transmitted, taking appropriate corrective action if endpoints appear > to be sending incorrect data. (Note that endpoints MAY choose to > measure audio levels prior to encoding, so some degree of discrepancy > SHOULD be tolerated.) >=20 > I do not think the RFC 2119 language currently stated in the parentheses = is justified. If it is justified, then we need to more clearly state what t= he requirements really are in a manner that might actually be tested, or at= least provide a clear understanding of what is conformant or what is not. = I suspect that this text should really just be informative. I agree that this section probably shouldn't use RFC 2119 language. The "M= AY choose to measure levels prior to encoding" text should probably go in t= he normative definition of the levels, however. > 5) Section 8: >=20 > Add a note to RFC editor saying replace RFC XXXX by the number of this RF= C. Ok. > 6) General: >=20 > I suspect the editors could do with putting the two drafts side by side a= nd aligning the text from one to the other in the areas where they are both= trying to say the same thing. This is not a call for a single document - I= think they are distinct in that respect, but there are similarities in the= requirements and we should only say similar things in the same way. We'll review this. >=20 > 7) General: >=20 > Why are all the examples mu law specific? Mostly because the examples in the RTP Comfort Noise payload format were al= l mu-law specific. However, also, it's a payload format with a well-define= d dynamic range narrower than of the corresponding Linear PCM, which is int= eresting and thus non-trivial. Is there a particular other payload you'd l= ike to see in the examples? (Linear PCM itself would be the other obvious = one to use, I suppose.) -- Jonathan Lennox jonathan@vidyo.com From efriedri@cisco.com Mon Mar 28 08:30:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7325228C0E4 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vbYXTJn6773Z for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ED528C0EA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=efriedri@cisco.com; l=2888; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1301326312; x=1302535912; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date: references; bh=zVfeELeXUdhu+eIQ5K8mdCETqhATdgIIFQSloltZiOc=; b=FgTaQUtdd5IS4CjzKeg2dNGQgtOSvRdU9CBCaMv1XxOeiQhpj3M+8wKp WmXfpK2ImqsKXFX+DDbBRk6KifuDlXyd4VIorVHNbGhL+CbFcjBfDgZX1 9QwiaMqGrV+MUUHxpNfm5o88NHQJdGdkzrX049wj8zNsQJWmgxC8EJqrs 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvgEANmokE2Q/khMgWdsb2JhbAClRRUBFiYliGueE5t8AoVnBIx3 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.63,256,1299456000"; d="scan'208";a="81128294" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2011 15:31:51 +0000 Received: from dhcp-161-44-182-175.cisco.com (dhcp-161-44-182-175.cisco.com [161.44.182.175]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p2SFVoFw024727; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:31:50 GMT Message-Id: <6013E800-9D02-40A2-8E5A-975350ABB7B4@cisco.com> From: Eric Friedrich To: Magnus Westerlund In-Reply-To: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:31:49 -0400 References: <4D8DB623.50708@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: avtext@ietf.org, draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [avtext] Comments on draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:30:16 -0000 Hi Magnus, Thank you for your review and the comments. On Mar 26, 2011, at 5:47 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > I did a review of draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-00 and I am > well aware of this document has already gone through WG last call =20 > but I > think I should bring these up to discussion. My personal view is that > they should be addressed prior to requsting publication of them. > > 1: General: The document appears to be missing any recommendations on > when the block should be used within an RTP session. > > First, it hints to that after an acquisition is the right time. =20 > However, > to me it looks like you could do partial reporting of some fields when > certain events part way through acquisition of a complete session. Our current implementation waits until all information included in the =20= report is collected before sending the report. As the timeliness of =20 receiving this report is not very important, it is included as part of =20= the next regularly scheduled RR. If the viewer should happen to =20 terminate the RAMS burst or the entire RTP session before the XR MA =20 block is sent, the XR MA is included in the BYE. We don't recommend =20 partial reporting because it increases the complexity of processing =20 the MA report for no gain in functionality. > > Secondly, there appears to be no recommendations if one should =20 > transmit > the same XR report several times, and what are the criteria for stop > sending it? > > Thirdly, does one need to make it clearer that these should be only be > sent part of regular compound packets? Yes, with the exception that they may be sent as part of a packet =20 containing a BYE as described above to ensure that at least 1 MA =20 report is sent per RAMS request. Reading over the draft again, I think =20= we also need to state that the XR MA packet should be sent on the =20 primary RTP session and not the retransmission session. Thanks, Eric > > M2: Section 6: > I am missing an analysis of the potential information leakage from the > data reported. What are the risks of not having this encrypted? I =20 > think > there should be some words on that aspect of the report. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 08:49:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58083A686E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:49:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.361, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yl9Z335hVVcN for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738863A67CF for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.64]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SFp6rC007836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:51:08 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.64]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:51:07 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:51:06 +0200 Thread-Topic: Audio levels: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 Thread-Index: AcvtXoC8qFJIh8qORJaxJjU1akCytg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: [avtext] Audio levels: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:49:36 -0000 (As WG co-chair) We had a couple of consensus calls ongoing that ended today as follows: I would therefore like to make a working group consensus call on the additi= onal material. Please answer yes or no to this question, although other com= ments are also welcome. WG Call -------- Does the WG consider the additional material added in Appendix A of draft-i= etf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level-01 (and also referenced from draft-i= etf-avtext-client-to-mixer-audio-level-01) form the basis of an improvement= to the WG task on audio levels, and should therefore be retained in the do= cument? Other changes that have taken place are the removal of the existing section= 11 (Design choices) from draft-ietf-avtext-mixer-to-client-audio-level. So= metimes such material has been retained as an annex, and sometimes it is di= scarded.=20 WG call ------- Is the WG happy with this deletion? There has been no input from the mailing list to these two calls so we aske= d the question in the face-to-face meeting. The results of that were: For the first call, there was considered usefulness in Appendix A.1. "Audio= LevelCalculator.java" and therefore this would be included in the document. For appendix A.2. "AudioLevelRenderer.java" this was considered to be more = implementation specific and was therefore considered less that useful. It w= ould not therefore be included in the document. As regards the second call, there was no issue with the deletion of the des= ign choices at this time, so this information is confirmed as deleted. If any members of the working group that have not expressed their views so = far have issues with this, then please post to the mailing list by the end = of this week. Otherwise we will consider these as confirmed WG decisions. Regards Keith P.S. The editors are working on a revision of the document that closes the = known open issues. If you have identified other open issues that need closi= ng, then please post, because we are working towards getting a version with= no open issues ready for working group last call. From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 08:59:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBC23A6A5C for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.351, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id suNInTwhcqMe for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247DB3A6870 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.61]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SG1NVj020152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:01:24 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB01.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.61]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:01:24 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:01:22 +0200 Thread-Topic: Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 Thread-Index: AcvtYWJNNJPDTxTUQZyk6+srEdsGcA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:59:49 -0000 (As WG chair) There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to creating a mi= lestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to address the use = case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will therefore be= an informational document. Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the chairs w= ill discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding it to our list of mi= lestones in AVTEXT. Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). This does not adopt the current text as a working group item. The author wi= ll provide another revision of this document based on comments made, and ot= her comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we will make a cal= l to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an invitation to contrib= ution other material either via the mailing list or via separate internet-d= rafts. Regards Keith From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 09:23:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D2B28C0F1 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:23:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.936 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.936 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.313, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCgZCs2nUZxw for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [62.23.212.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B3D28C0F7 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SGP1n3018500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:25:03 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:25:02 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:25:00 +0200 Thread-Topic: SRTP store and forward: Confirmation of IETF#80 decisions Thread-Index: AcvtZK9g2Iwqs2ztTHu3z3PMOgE5Kw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: [avtext] SRTP store and forward: Confirmation of IETF#80 decisions X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:23:28 -0000 (As WG chair) During the split of the WGs from the old AVT working group a number of new = milestones were created. For AVTEXT these included: Dec 2011 Submit SRTP Store-and-Forward Use Cases and Requirements for Info= rmational =20 Dec 2011 Submit Use of the Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP) in S= tore-and-Forward Applications for Proposed Standard =20 These were adopted more because drafts existed, rather that because there h= ad been any real polling in the (AVT) working group for interest. Discussion at IETF#80 identified that the original drafts do not really hav= e a level of support in the way they are currently drafted. There needs to = be more work on identifying use cases, and ensuring that the solutions addr= ess those use cases in a valid manner. As such there is no support for the current milestones. The chairs therefore propose to delete the current milestones. If you have = objections to this, then please respond by the end of this week (Friday). This does not prevent the authors working on the current drafts to identify= something round which we can build working group consensus. We can easily = create new milestones round this when that occurs. Regards Keith From xiajinwei@huawei.com Mon Mar 28 09:31:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361293A6A55 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bCEhwF8jkxRC for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1CF28C0F7 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIS00AVV0MGV4@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:32:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIS00D0U0MGQX@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:32:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from jinwei (dhcp-1553.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.21.83]) by szxml11-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LIS00E250M6ZM@szxml11-in.huawei.com>; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:32:40 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:32:12 +0800 From: Jinwei Xia To: Magnus Westerlund , avtext@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <4D904E7E.6090504@ericsson.com> Subject: Re: [avtext] comments on draft-xia-avtext-splicing-for-rtp-00 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:31:17 -0000 SGkgTWFndXMsDQoNClRoYW5reSB5b3VyIHZhbHVhYmxlIGNvbW1lbnRzLCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15 IGNvbW1lbnRzIGlubGluZS4NCg0KLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLSANCkZyb206 ICJNYWdudXMgV2VzdGVybHVuZCIgPG1hZ251cy53ZXN0ZXJsdW5kQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NClRv OiA8YXZ0ZXh0QGlldGYub3JnPjsgIkppbndlaSBYaWEiIDx4aWFqaW53ZWlAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4N ClNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgTWFyY2ggMjgsIDIwMTEgNTowMSBQTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogY29tbWVudHMg b24gZHJhZnQteGlhLWF2dGV4dC1zcGxpY2luZy1mb3ItcnRwLTAwDQoNCg0KPiBIaSwNCj4gDQo+ IEkgaGF2ZSByZXZpZXdlZCB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGFuZCBoYXZlIHNvbWUgY29tbWVudHMuDQo+ 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12:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBpN5ICWD4BY for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2001:470:d:21b:3c00::1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806C53A68FA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.245.155] (c-24-62-229-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.229.193]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p2SJwk83031699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:58:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David R Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:58:08 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> References: To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:56:44 -0000 Sorry I wasn't there folks (still can't travel for another month or so). I have one question about the discussion and conclusion. Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement in the = requirements that the splicing action be completely undetectable by the = receiver? The reason I ask is that from my perspective, the entire technical = approach (including whether to model as a translator or mixer) is driven = by this one requirement. In fact, I can see a number of MUCH simpler = approaches if this requirement is dropped. I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we are a priori = confining the solution space to solutions that satisfy this requirement. I'm somewhat ambivalent about this, since the only use case I can think = of where undetectability comes into play is advertisement insertion. We = should be clear that everybody understands that this is the case. Cheers, DaveO. On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:01 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > (As WG chair) >=20 > There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to creating = a milestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to address = the use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will = therefore be an informational document. >=20 > Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the = chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding it to our = list of milestones in AVTEXT. >=20 > Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). >=20 > This does not adopt the current text as a working group item. The = author will provide another revision of this document based on comments = made, and other comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we = will make a call to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an = invitation to contribution other material either via the mailing list or = via separate internet-drafts. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Keith > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 13:02:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD073A68FA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:02:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.305, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iWYelmdXbs7q for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BDA3A68FE for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SK4RdU013395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:04:28 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:04:27 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: David R Oran Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:04:25 +0200 Thread-Topic: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 Thread-Index: AcvtgnyoD+DlN3rDQNCi8mEL9mJsZwAACKbg Message-ID: References: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:02:54 -0000 (As WG chair) That would be too much detail for the setting of a milestone, which is all = we are asking the working group to perform at the moment (and no we did not= discuss this in the working group - at least to my recollection). However it sounds like a perfectly reasonable question to ask in terms of w= hat the draft (when we get round to the adoption question for text) should = cover, either as discussion or as a stated requirement. Essentially as regards the text we are in the phase of identifying to the a= uthor issues he should cover to make his draft text more acceptable to the = WG than any other text (not that there is any at the moment). Feel free to have that discussion. Regards Keith P.S. We are missing you. > -----Original Message----- > From: David R Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] > Sent: 28 March 2011 20:58 > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Cc: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 >=20 > Sorry I wasn't there folks (still can't travel for another month or so). > I have one question about the discussion and conclusion. >=20 > Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement in the > requirements that the splicing action be completely undetectable by the > receiver? >=20 > The reason I ask is that from my perspective, the entire technical > approach (including whether to model as a translator or mixer) is driven > by this one requirement. In fact, I can see a number of MUCH simpler > approaches if this requirement is dropped. >=20 > I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we are a priori > confining the solution space to solutions that satisfy this requirement. >=20 > I'm somewhat ambivalent about this, since the only use case I can think o= f > where undetectability comes into play is advertisement insertion. We > should be clear that everybody understands that this is the case. >=20 > Cheers, DaveO. >=20 >=20 > On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:01 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >=20 > > (As WG chair) > > > > There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to creating = a > milestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to address the > use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will > therefore be an informational document. > > > > Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the > chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding it to our > list of milestones in AVTEXT. > > > > Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). > > > > This does not adopt the current text as a working group item. The autho= r > will provide another revision of this document based on comments made, an= d > other comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we will make a > call to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an invitation to > contribution other material either via the mailing list or via separate > internet-drafts. > > > > Regards > > > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > > avtext mailing list > > avtext@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 13:16:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E076128C0F0 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.271, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KM6ITPs1LK9i for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98CD28C0D8 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SKHaMf031967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:17:36 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:17:36 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:17:33 +0200 Thread-Topic: Submit Considerations for RAMS Scenarios for Informational Thread-Index: AcvthSw7wFWI3F0kRBCq9s2LCxJEOw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.83 Subject: [avtext] Submit Considerations for RAMS Scenarios for Informational X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:16:01 -0000 (As WG chair) This is not a confirmation of an IETF#80 decision, but more a plea for inpu= t. We have a milestone as above, and it is the nearest in terms of current dat= e as to when we have to produce a deliverable (June 2011) to any other. Ali has a draft covering this: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-begen-avtext-rams-scenarios/ Do please look at this draft, and consider the scenarios he has identified.= =20 Are these the useful ones? Are any of them not particularly useful? Has he = missed scenarios that would be more useful in terms of RAMS use cases? Do consider whether the document is too long, or indeed conversely needs mo= re detail. Which is it? We'd like to make a decision on adopting the text fairly soon (like a coupl= e of weeks at most), and it would be nice to hammer out some of these point= s before we get to doing that. The answers to these sort of questions ident= ify what sort of document you want to adopt. And if you believe that the answer lies in an entirely different direction,= you can always point that direction in an alternative author generated dra= ft, if you consider this a better way of opening the discussion that critic= ising / improving an existing author draft. Regards Keith From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Mar 28 13:21:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473983A6902 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.264, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H78XpvERlbNy for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3459D3A68C2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.64]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id p2SKNH00017036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:23:19 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.46]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.64]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:23:18 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "avtext@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:23:17 +0200 Thread-Topic: Submit Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session for Proposed Standard Thread-Index: AcvthfklD932g772RamkNFTmSIxInw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 155.132.188.80 Subject: [avtext] Submit Support for multiple clock rates in an RTP session for Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:21:43 -0000 The final update of todays discussion. Again no decision to make immediatel= y. Marc has some current discussions to work through and produce an update of: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-petithuguenin-avtext-multiple-clock-r= ates/ At that point we would like to make a call for the WG to adopt text to fulf= il the current milestone. So now would be a good point to review the text, and identify if this docum= ent is something on which such a call should be performed, or whether you e= nvisage an entirely different document.=20 If so, either make suggestions to Marc on what he might incorporate in his = document, or alternatively produce an alternative draft pointing a better w= ay forward. Note we are not identifying completeness at this point, merely = laying the ground for the best direction to get some working group consensu= s text on the table. Regards Keith From daveoran@orandom.net Mon Mar 28 13:31:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF523A68C2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRld+aZObe8v for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2001:470:d:21b:3c00::1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4127C28C0FB for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.245.155] (c-24-62-229-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.229.193]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p2SKXX84032148 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:33:34 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David R Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:32:54 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:31:29 -0000 On Mar 28, 2011, at 4:04 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > (As WG chair) >=20 > That would be too much detail for the setting of a milestone, which is = all we are asking the working group to perform at the moment (and no we = did not discuss this in the working group - at least to my = recollection). >=20 Well, I sort of disagree. If some hyperbole would help clarify, this is = like establishing a milestone "get astronauts to the moon" while leaving = out the pesky requirements detail of "you need to get them back alive". > However it sounds like a perfectly reasonable question to ask in terms = of what the draft (when we get round to the adoption question for text) = should cover, either as discussion or as a stated requirement. >=20 I just want to make sure people are aware of the implications implicit = in the milestone so we don't immediately stall over the consequences of = this (to me key overriding) requirement. > Essentially as regards the text we are in the phase of identifying to = the author issues he should cover to make his draft text more acceptable = to the WG than any other text (not that there is any at the moment). >=20 I'm not at the point of worrying about text in the drafts, since if we = are on the same page as the authors on the undetectability requirement = whatever the final thing says it's going to look more or less like what = they propose, and if the WG doesn't buy the requirement by contrast I = suspect the ultimate solution can look quite different (and possibly = quite a bit simpler). So, for the record, I am in favor of the milestone without an = undetectability requirement and not opposed (but abstain) with that = requirement. > Feel free to have that discussion. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Keith >=20 > P.S. We are missing you. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David R Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >> Sent: 28 March 2011 20:58 >> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) >> Cc: avtext@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 >>=20 >> Sorry I wasn't there folks (still can't travel for another month or = so). >> I have one question about the discussion and conclusion. >>=20 >> Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement in the >> requirements that the splicing action be completely undetectable by = the >> receiver? >>=20 >> The reason I ask is that from my perspective, the entire technical >> approach (including whether to model as a translator or mixer) is = driven >> by this one requirement. In fact, I can see a number of MUCH simpler >> approaches if this requirement is dropped. >>=20 >> I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we are a = priori >> confining the solution space to solutions that satisfy this = requirement. >>=20 >> I'm somewhat ambivalent about this, since the only use case I can = think of >> where undetectability comes into play is advertisement insertion. We >> should be clear that everybody understands that this is the case. >>=20 >> Cheers, DaveO. >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:01 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>=20 >>> (As WG chair) >>>=20 >>> There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to = creating a >> milestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to address = the >> use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will >> therefore be an informational document. >>>=20 >>> Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the >> chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding it to = our >> list of milestones in AVTEXT. >>>=20 >>> Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). >>>=20 >>> This does not adopt the current text as a working group item. The = author >> will provide another revision of this document based on comments = made, and >> other comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we will = make a >> call to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an invitation = to >> contribution other material either via the mailing list or via = separate >> internet-drafts. >>>=20 >>> Regards >>>=20 >>> Keith >>> _______________________________________________ >>> avtext mailing list >>> avtext@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext From xiajinwei@huawei.com Tue Mar 29 07:29:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FC93A682D for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.035 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.035 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GLigGDPVKCvN for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA283A682B for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaml01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIT003RBPNGGP@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.87]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIT00IDLPNDLN@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:30:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.24.1.55] (Forwarded-For: [88.208.109.142]) by szxmc02-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Tue, 29 Mar 2011 22:30:48 +0800 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 22:30:48 +0800 From: xiajinwei 65217 In-reply-to: To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tz5IoXMs8IV0Qf+B/h5Z4Q)" Content-language: zh-CN X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal References: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: [avtext] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tCA6UmU6ICBTcGxpY2luZzogQ29uZmlybWF0aW9u?= =?gb2312?b?IG9mIGRlY2lzaW9ucyBhdCBJRVRGIzgw?= X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:29:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_tz5IoXMs8IV0Qf+B/h5Z4Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Hi Chair and Dave=2C Thank your comments=2E = The user in RTP/RTCP protocol is STB device=2C so user undetectability is= exactly STB undetectability=2E This means that substitutive content and = main content should not be discriminated by STB in RTP layer=2E = If the substitutive content comes from local file storage=2C translator c= an directly replace the main content in a single stream=2C i=2Ee=2E=2C ma= in stream=2E This is irrrelevant to STB undetectability requirement=2E If the substitutive content is conveyed via another RTP stream=2C transla= tor does not merge the two streams into one and outputs them alternately=2C= this will cause a few concerns=2E From commercial viewpoint=2C STB has = the capability to detect the substitutive stream=2C and thus possibly fil= ter substitutive stream=2C especially in DVR/PVR/Time-shift applications=2C= this is unacceptable for operators and advertisers=2E SMPTE 321M standar= d (Splice Points f or MPEG2-TS) gives corresponding description =22However=2C in order to pr= event commercial killing devices from taking advantage of changes in PSI=2C= systems with splicing are encouraged to avoid changes to the PMT by reus= ing existing video and audio PIDs after a splice=2E =22 IMHO it is STB u= ndetectability on TS layer=2C we just map the requirement to RTP layer=2E= I also attaches SMPTE 321=2E Thank you Jinwei ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A =22DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith)=22 =3Ckeith=2Edrage=40alc= atel-lucent=2Ecom=3E =C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=B6=FE=2C =C8=FD=D4=C2 29=C8=D5=2C 2011 =C9=CF= =CE=E74=3A04 =D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =5Bavtext=5D Splicing=3A Confirmation of decisions = at IETF=2380 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A David R Oran =3Cdaveoran=40orandom=2Enet=3E =B3=AD=CB=CD=3A =22avtext=40ietf=2Eorg=22 =3Cavtext=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E (As WG chair) =3E = =3E That would be too much detail for the setting of a milestone=2C = =3E which is all we are asking the working group to perform at the = =3E moment (and no we did not discuss this in the working group - at = =3E least to my recollection)=2E =3E = =3E However it sounds like a perfectly reasonable question to ask in = =3E terms of what the draft (when we get round to the adoption = =3E question for text) should cover=2C either as discussion or as a = =3E stated requirement=2E =3E = =3E Essentially as regards the text we are in the phase of identifying = =3E to the author issues he should cover to make his draft text more = =3E acceptable to the WG than any other text (not that there is any at = =3E the moment)=2E =3E = =3E Feel free to have that discussion=2E =3E = =3E Regards =3E = =3E Keith =3E = =3E P=2ES=2E We are missing you=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E =3E -----Original Message----- =3E =3E From=3A David R Oran =5Bmailto=3Adaveoran=40orandom=2Enet=5D =3E =3E Sent=3A 28 March 2011 20=3A58 =3E =3E To=3A DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith) =3E =3E Cc=3A avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bavtext=5D Splicing=3A Confirmation of decisio= ns at IETF=2380 =3E =3E = =3E =3E Sorry I wasn=27t there folks (still can=27t travel for another mo= nth = =3E or so)=2E =3E =3E I have one question about the discussion and conclusion=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement in the =3E =3E requirements that the splicing action be completely undetectable = =3E by the =3E =3E receiver=3F =3E =3E = =3E =3E The reason I ask is that from my perspective=2C the entire techni= cal =3E =3E approach (including whether to model as a translator or mixer) = =3E is driven =3E =3E by this one requirement=2E In fact=2C I can see a number of MUCH = simpler =3E =3E approaches if this requirement is dropped=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we are a = =3E priori=3E confining the solution space to solutions that satisfy = =3E this requirement=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E I=27m somewhat ambivalent about this=2C since the only use case I= = =3E can think of =3E =3E where undetectability comes into play is advertisement = =3E insertion=2E We =3E =3E should be clear that everybody understands that this is the case=2E= =3E =3E = =3E =3E Cheers=2C DaveO=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E On Mar 28=2C 2011=2C at 12=3A01 PM=2C DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith) wrot= e=3A =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E (As WG chair) =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to= = =3E creating a =3E =3E milestone in the WG=2E The essence of the milestone will be to = =3E address the =3E =3E use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP=2E It w= ill =3E =3E therefore be an informational document=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list= =2C the =3E =3E chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding = =3E it to our =3E =3E list of milestones in AVTEXT=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Please respond by the end of this week (Friday)=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E This does not adopt the current text as a working group item=2E= = =3E The author =3E =3E will provide another revision of this document based on comments = =3E made=2C and =3E =3E other comments that people may wish to contribute now=2C and we = =3E will make a =3E =3E call to adopt text at that point=2E Please take this as an = =3E invitation to =3E =3E contribution other material either via the mailing list or via = =3E separate=3E internet-drafts=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Regards =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Keith =3E =3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F =3E =3E =3E avtext mailing list =3E =3E =3E avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E =3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/avtext =3E = =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E avtext mailing list =3E avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/avtext =3E --Boundary_(ID_tz5IoXMs8IV0Qf+B/h5Z4Q) 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IG4NCjAwMDAxMTAwMzYgMDAwMDAgbg0KdHJhaWxlcg0KPDwNCi9TaXplIDkwDQovUm9vdCAz IDAgUg0KL0luZm8gMSAwIFINCi9JRCBbPGUzMTc4MjZkMjVkYzI2ZjQ4MGEyOTc4MmE1MzJi ZjUyPjxlMzE3ODI2ZDI1ZGMyNmY0ODBhMjk3ODJhNTMyYmY1Mj5dDQo+Pg0Kc3RhcnR4cmVm DQoxMTA0MjQNCiUlRU9GDQo= --Boundary_(ID_tz5IoXMs8IV0Qf+B/h5Z4Q)-- From daveoran@orandom.net Tue Mar 29 08:01:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778143A68BB for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.319, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OjsprPpVPag8 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2001:470:d:21b:3c00::1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7773A6824 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.245.155] (c-24-62-229-193.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.229.193]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p2TF3PPO009134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:03:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 From: David R Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:02:46 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F3F198E-F810-4157-AC28-D74505D0D154@orandom.net> References: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> To: xiajinwei 65217 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [avtext] =?utf-8?b?5Zue5aSNOlJlOiAgU3BsaWNpbmc6IENvbmZpcm1hdGlv?= =?utf-8?q?n_of_decisions_at_IETF=2380?= X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:01:47 -0000 On Mar 29, 2011, at 10:30 AM, xiajinwei 65217 wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Chair and Dave, >=20 > Thank your comments.=20 >=20 > The user in RTP/RTCP protocol is STB device, so user undetectability = is exactly STB undetectability. This means that substitutive content and = main content should not be discriminated by STB in RTP layer.=20 "should not" or "must not". Note that avoiding detection at the RTP = layer doesn't help if the splice is detectable above the RTP layer - = more on this below. > If the substitutive content comes from local file storage, translator = can directly replace the main content in a single stream, i.e., main = stream. This is irrrelevant to STB undetectability requirement. >=20 I don't think this follows - see my encryption example below. > If the substitutive content is conveyed via another RTP stream, = translator does not merge the two streams into one and outputs them = alternately, this will cause a few concerns. =46rom commercial = viewpoint, STB has the capability to detect the substitutive stream, and = thus possibly filter substitutive stream, especially in = DVR/PVR/Time-shift applications, this is unacceptable for operators and = advertisers. SMPTE 321M standard (Splice Points f > or MPEG2-TS) gives corresponding description "However, in order to = prevent commercial killing devices from taking advantage of changes in = PSI, systems with splicing are encouraged to avoid changes to the PMT by = reusing existing video and audio PIDs after a splice. " IMHO it is STB = undetectability on TS layer, we just map the requirement to RTP layer. I = also attaches SMPTE 321. >=20 Thanks for supplying the confirming details. Do you agree with my conclusion that accepting the milestone does in = fact imply we are accepting the non-detectability requirement? In other = words, you aren't interested in pursuing the work if this requirement is = removed? I ask because nearly all uses of splicing other than advertisement = insertion do not bring along a non-detectability requirement. For = example, other use cases include splicing a recorded video into a video = conferencing session, implementing a playlist server that stitches = pieces of video together, inserting alternate audio via a spliced = stream, etc. Just as an interesting factoid, even if you go to great lengths to hide = the splicing in the RTP translator, in a large number of cases = advertisements are unencrypted while the base content is encrypted. = Therefore, even if you do a totally undetectable splice at the RTP = layer, the receiver will *still* be able to find the splice points by = the switch in encryption state. Providers who are paranoid about this = actually go to the extreme of re-encrypting the content at the splicer, = which of course cannot be done at the RTP layer since it changes the = application data and hence causes re-encapsulation. (Full disclosure: Cisco has IPR on how to splice unencrypted = advertisements or advertisements encrypted under different keys using = RTP mixer approaches. These are detectable by a smart receiver so the = IPR does not apply to the approach you have in your I.D.) These and other considerations are why I'm abstaining on (not opposing!) = adopting the milestone if the non-detectability requirement is retained.=20= If other people share my ambivalence, an alternative is to re-work the = milestone to talk only about advertisement insertion via RTP splicing, = and consider a separate and different approach for splicing where = detectability isn't a problem. I offer this alternative because we may = wind up with an overly complex or restrictive or brittle solution to = meet the non-detectability requirement, which could be simplified or = generalized for the other use cases. DaveO. >=20 > Thank you >=20 > Jinwei >=20 >=20 > ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" = > =C8=D5=C6=DA: =D0=C7=C6=DA=B6=FE, =C8=FD=D4=C2 29=C8=D5, 2011 =C9=CF=CE=E7= 4:04 > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at = IETF#80 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: David R Oran > =B3=AD=CB=CD: "avtext@ietf.org" >=20 >> (As WG chair) >>=20 >> That would be too much detail for the setting of a milestone,=20 >> which is all we are asking the working group to perform at the=20 >> moment (and no we did not discuss this in the working group - at=20 >> least to my recollection). >>=20 >> However it sounds like a perfectly reasonable question to ask in=20 >> terms of what the draft (when we get round to the adoption=20 >> question for text) should cover, either as discussion or as a=20 >> stated requirement. >>=20 >> Essentially as regards the text we are in the phase of identifying=20 >> to the author issues he should cover to make his draft text more=20 >> acceptable to the WG than any other text (not that there is any at=20 >> the moment). >>=20 >> Feel free to have that discussion. >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Keith >>=20 >> P.S. We are missing you. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: David R Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>> Sent: 28 March 2011 20:58 >>> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) >>> Cc: avtext@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 >>>=20 >>> Sorry I wasn't there folks (still can't travel for another month=20 >> or so). >>> I have one question about the discussion and conclusion. >>>=20 >>> Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement in the >>> requirements that the splicing action be completely undetectable=20 >> by the >>> receiver? >>>=20 >>> The reason I ask is that from my perspective, the entire technical >>> approach (including whether to model as a translator or mixer)=20 >> is driven >>> by this one requirement. In fact, I can see a number of MUCH simpler >>> approaches if this requirement is dropped. >>>=20 >>> I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we are a=20 >> priori> confining the solution space to solutions that satisfy=20 >> this requirement. >>>=20 >>> I'm somewhat ambivalent about this, since the only use case I=20 >> can think of >>> where undetectability comes into play is advertisement=20 >> insertion. We >>> should be clear that everybody understands that this is the case. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, DaveO. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:01 PM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >>>=20 >>>> (As WG chair) >>>>=20 >>>> There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to=20 >> creating a >>> milestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to=20 >> address the >>> use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will >>> therefore be an informational document. >>>>=20 >>>> Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the >>> chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding=20 >> it to our >>> list of milestones in AVTEXT. >>>>=20 >>>> Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). >>>>=20 >>>> This does not adopt the current text as a working group item.=20 >> The author >>> will provide another revision of this document based on comments=20 >> made, and >>> other comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we=20 >> will make a >>> call to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an=20 >> invitation to >>> contribution other material either via the mailing list or via=20 >> separate> internet-drafts. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>>=20 >>>> Keith >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> avtext mailing list >>>> avtext@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> avtext mailing list >> avtext@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext >>=20 > From xiajinwei@huawei.com Tue Mar 29 14:49:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E9128C0EB for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.035 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.035 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtKibYa6mi08 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D468B3A6825 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaml01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIU001UJA0WQO@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 16:50:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.87]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIU006WRA0UEG@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 16:50:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.24.1.55] (Forwarded-For: [88.208.109.142]) by szxmc02-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:50:54 +0800 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:50:54 +0800 From: xiajinwei 65217 In-reply-to: <5F3F198E-F810-4157-AC28-D74505D0D154@orandom.net> To: David R Oran Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal References: <3F01CB95-4099-4B04-99D5-6B2D8551E12E@orandom.net> <5F3F198E-F810-4157-AC28-D74505D0D154@orandom.net> Cc: "avtext@ietf.org" Subject: [avtext] =?gb2312?b?u9i4tCA6UmU6ILvYuLQgOlJlOiAgU3BsaWNpbmc6IENv?= =?gb2312?b?bmZpcm1hdGlvbiBvZiBkZWNpc2lvbnMgYXQgSUVURiM4MA==?= X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 21:49:20 -0000 ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A David R Oran =3Cdaveoran=40orandom=2Enet=3E =C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=B6=FE=2C =C8=FD=D4=C2 29=C8=D5=2C 2011 =CF=C2= =CE=E711=3A05 =D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =BB=D8=B8=B4=3ARe=3A =5Bavtext=5D Splicing=3A Confi= rmation of decisions at IETF=2380 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A xiajinwei 65217 =3Cxiajinwei=40huawei=2Ecom=3E =B3=AD=CB=CD=3A =22DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith)=22 =3Ckeith=2Edrage=40alcatel-l= ucent=2Ecom=3E=2C =22avtext=40ietf=2Eorg=22 =3Cavtext=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E = =3E On Mar 29=2C 2011=2C at 10=3A30 AM=2C xiajinwei 65217 wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E Hi Chair and Dave=2C =3E =3E = =3E =3E Thank your comments=2E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E The user in RTP/RTCP protocol is STB device=2C so user = =3E undetectability is exactly STB undetectability=2E This means that = =3E substitutive content and main content should not be discriminated = =3E by STB in RTP layer=2E = =3E =22should not=22 or =22must not=22=2E Note that avoiding detection at= the = =3E RTP layer doesn=27t help if the splice is detectable above the RTP = =3E layer - more on this below=2E =3E = I think =22should not=22 is better=2C the requirement from one operator s= hould not force all operators to implement it=2E =3E =3E If the substitutive content comes from local file storage=2C = =3E translator can directly replace the main content in a single = =3E stream=2C i=2Ee=2E=2C main stream=2E This is irrrelevant to STB = =3E undetectability requirement=2E =3E =3E = =3E I don=27t think this follows - see my encryption example below=2E =3E = =3E =3E If the substitutive content is conveyed via another RTP stream=2C= = =3E translator does not merge the two streams into one and outputs = =3E them alternately=2C this will cause a few concerns=2E From commercia= l = =3E viewpoint=2C STB has the capability to detect the substitutive = =3E stream=2C and thus possibly filter substitutive stream=2C especially = =3E in DVR/PVR/Time-shift applications=2C this is unacceptable for = =3E operators and advertisers=2E SMPTE 321M standard (Splice Points f =3E =3E or MPEG2-TS) gives corresponding description =22However=2C in ord= er = =3E to prevent commercial killing devices from taking advantage of = =3E changes in PSI=2C systems with splicing are encouraged to avoid = =3E changes to the PMT by reusing existing video and audio PIDs after = =3E a splice=2E =22 IMHO it is STB undetectability on TS layer=2C we jus= t = =3E map the requirement to RTP layer=2E I also attaches SMPTE 321=2E =3E =3E = =3E Thanks for supplying the confirming details=2E =3E = =3E Do you agree with my conclusion that accepting the milestone does = =3E in fact imply we are accepting the non-detectability requirement=3F = =3E In other words=2C you aren=27t interested in pursuing the work if thi= s = =3E requirement is removed=3F Actually I prefer to define the requirement as optional=2C just like abov= e description of SMPTE 321M=2E =3E = =3E I ask because nearly all uses of splicing other than advertisement = =3E insertion do not bring along a non-detectability requirement=2E For = =3E example=2C other use cases include splicing a recorded video into a = =3E video conferencing session=2C implementing a playlist server that = =3E stitches pieces of video together=2C inserting alternate audio via a = =3E spliced stream=2C etc=2E Yes=2C these use cases=2C in addition to emergency broadcast=2C also use = splicing technology=2E Ad insertion is a special use case=2E =3E = =3E Just as an interesting factoid=2C even if you go to great lengths to = =3E hide the splicing in the RTP translator=2C in a large number of = =3E cases advertisements are unencrypted while the base content is = =3E encrypted=2E Therefore=2C even if you do a totally undetectable splic= e = =3E at the RTP layer=2C the receiver will *still* be able to find the = =3E splice points by the switch in encryption state=2E Providers who are = =3E paranoid about this actually go to the extreme of re-encrypting = =3E the content at the splicer=2C which of course cannot be done at the = =3E RTP layer since it changes the application data and hence causes = =3E re-encapsulation=2E Translator can be used in SRTP environment (section 7=2E4 of RFC3711)=2C = thus the substitutive content can used same encryption material with main= content when re-encrypting them=2E Thank you = Jinwei =3E = =3E (Full disclosure=3A Cisco has IPR on how to splice unencrypted = =3E advertisements or advertisements encrypted under different keys = =3E using RTP mixer approaches=2E These are detectable by a smart = =3E receiver so the IPR does not apply to the approach you have in = =3E your I=2ED=2E) =3E = =3E These and other considerations are why I=27m abstaining on (not = =3E opposing!) adopting the milestone if the non-detectability = =3E requirement is retained=2E = =3E = =3E If other people share my ambivalence=2C an alternative is to re-work = =3E the milestone to talk only about advertisement insertion via RTP = =3E splicing=2C and consider a separate and different approach for = =3E splicing where detectability isn=27t a problem=2E I offer this = =3E alternative because we may wind up with an overly complex or = =3E restrictive or brittle solution to meet the non-detectability = =3E requirement=2C which could be simplified or generalized for the = =3E other use cases=2E =3E = =3E DaveO=2E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E Thank you =3E =3E = =3E =3E Jinwei =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- =3E =3E =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A =22DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith)=22 =3Ckeith=2Edra= ge=40alcatel-lucent=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E =C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=B6=FE=2C =C8=FD=D4=C2 29=C8=D5=2C 20= 11 =C9=CF=CE=E74=3A04 =3E =3E =D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =5Bavtext=5D Splicing=3A Confirmation of de= cisions at IETF=2380 =3E =3E =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A David R Oran =3Cdaveoran=40orandom=2Enet=3E= =3E =3E =B3=AD=CB=CD=3A =22avtext=40ietf=2Eorg=22 =3Cavtext=40ietf=2Eorg=3E= =3E =3E = =3E =3E=3E (As WG chair) =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E That would be too much detail for the setting of a milestone=2C= = =3E =3E=3E which is all we are asking the working group to perform at the= = =3E =3E=3E moment (and no we did not discuss this in the working group - = =3E at = =3E =3E=3E least to my recollection)=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E However it sounds like a perfectly reasonable question to ask = =3E in = =3E =3E=3E terms of what the draft (when we get round to the adoption = =3E =3E=3E question for text) should cover=2C either as discussion or as = a = =3E =3E=3E stated requirement=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E Essentially as regards the text we are in the phase of = =3E identifying = =3E =3E=3E to the author issues he should cover to make his draft text = =3E more = =3E =3E=3E acceptable to the WG than any other text (not that there is an= y = =3E at = =3E =3E=3E the moment)=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E Feel free to have that discussion=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E Regards =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E Keith =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E P=2ES=2E We are missing you=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E -----Original Message----- =3E =3E=3E=3E From=3A David R Oran =5Bmailto=3Adaveoran=40orandom=2Enet=5D= =3E =3E=3E=3E Sent=3A 28 March 2011 20=3A58 =3E =3E=3E=3E To=3A DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith) =3E =3E=3E=3E Cc=3A avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E=3E=3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5Bavtext=5D Splicing=3A Confirmation of d= ecisions at = =3E IETF=2380=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Sorry I wasn=27t there folks (still can=27t travel for anot= her = =3E month = =3E =3E=3E or so)=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E I have one question about the discussion and conclusion=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Was there consensus on the (I believe explicit) statement i= n the =3E =3E=3E=3E requirements that the splicing action be completely = =3E undetectable = =3E =3E=3E by the =3E =3E=3E=3E receiver=3F =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E The reason I ask is that from my perspective=2C the entire = technical =3E =3E=3E=3E approach (including whether to model as a translator or mix= er) = =3E =3E=3E is driven =3E =3E=3E=3E by this one requirement=2E In fact=2C I can see a number of= MUCH = =3E simpler=3E=3E=3E approaches if this requirement is dropped=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E I just want to be clear when we adopt the milestone if we a= re = =3E a = =3E =3E=3E priori=3E confining the solution space to solutions that satis= fy = =3E =3E=3E this requirement=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E I=27m somewhat ambivalent about this=2C since the only use = case I = =3E =3E=3E can think of =3E =3E=3E=3E where undetectability comes into play is advertisement = =3E =3E=3E insertion=2E We =3E =3E=3E=3E should be clear that everybody understands that this is the= case=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Cheers=2C DaveO=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E On Mar 28=2C 2011=2C at 12=3A01 PM=2C DRAGE=2C Keith (Keith= ) wrote=3A =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E (As WG chair) =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeti= ng to = =3E =3E=3E creating a =3E =3E=3E=3E milestone in the WG=2E The essence of the milestone will be= to = =3E =3E=3E address the =3E =3E=3E=3E use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP=2E= It will =3E =3E=3E=3E therefore be an informational document=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing= = =3E list=2C the =3E =3E=3E=3E chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and add= ing = =3E =3E=3E it to our =3E =3E=3E=3E list of milestones in AVTEXT=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E Please respond by the end of this week (Friday)=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E This does not adopt the current text as a working group = item=2E = =3E =3E=3E The author =3E =3E=3E=3E will provide another revision of this document based on = =3E comments = =3E =3E=3E made=2C and =3E =3E=3E=3E other comments that people may wish to contribute now=2C an= d we = =3E =3E=3E will make a =3E =3E=3E=3E call to adopt text at that point=2E Please take this as an = =3E =3E=3E invitation to =3E =3E=3E=3E contribution other material either via the mailing list or = via = =3E =3E=3E separate=3E internet-drafts=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E Regards =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E Keith =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E avtext mailing list =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E=3E=3E=3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/avtext =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F =3E =3E=3E avtext mailing list =3E =3E=3E avtext=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =3E=3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/avtext =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E =3CSMPTE 312M=2Epdf=3E =3E = =3E From abegen@cisco.com Wed Mar 30 06:57:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3244E3A6B53 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 06:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JE71fxtVgnrW for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 06:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098583A6A34 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 06:57:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=abegen@cisco.com; l=2858; 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SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 30 Mar 2011 06:58:45 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 06:58:43 -0700 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540EAACB8F@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20110330135205.6BA313A6B57@core3.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01 Thread-Index: Acvu4fQReB0qdP0HRPeI8NnTwp61EAAAImrw References: <20110330135205.6BA313A6B57@core3.amsl.com> From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2011 13:58:45.0315 (UTC) FILETIME=[95C86930:01CBEEE2] Subject: [avtext] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:57:08 -0000 aHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1hdnRleHQtbXVsdGlj YXN0LWFjcS1ydGNwLXhyDQoNClRoaXMgdmVyc2lvbiBhZGRyZXNzZWQgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRzIGZy b20gTWFnbnVzIChjaGFpcidzIHJldmlldykuIFdlIHNob3VsZCBiZSByZWFkeSBmb3IgcHViIHJl cXVlc3QuDQoNCi1hY2JlZ2VuDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBJ RVRGIEktRCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uIFRvb2wgW21haWx0bzppZHN1Ym1pc3Npb25AaWV0Zi5vcmddIA0K U2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAzMCwgMjAxMSAzOjUyIFBNDQpUbzogQWxpIEMuIEJlZ2Vu IChhYmVnZW4pDQpDYzogRXJpYyBGcmllZHJpY2ggKGVmcmllZHJpKQ0KU3ViamVjdDogTmV3IFZl cnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWF2dGV4dC1tdWx0aWNhc3QtYWNxLXJ0 Y3AteHItMDEgDQoNCg0KQSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBJLUQsIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0ZXh0LW11 bHRpY2FzdC1hY3EtcnRjcC14ci0wMS50eHQgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHN1Ym1pdHRl ZCBieSBBbGkgQmVnZW4gYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KDQpGaWxl bmFtZToJIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtYXZ0ZXh0LW11bHRpY2FzdC1hY3EtcnRjcC14cg0KUmV2aXNpb246 CSAwMQ0KVGl0bGU6CQkgTXVsdGljYXN0IEFjcXVpc2l0aW9uIFJlcG9ydCBCbG9jayBUeXBlIGZv ciBSVFAgQ29udHJvbCBQcm90b2NvbCAoUlRDUCkgRXh0ZW5kZWQgUmVwb3J0cyAoWFJzKQ0KQ3Jl YXRpb25fZGF0ZToJIDIwMTEtMDMtMzANCldHIElEOgkJIGF2dGV4dA0KTnVtYmVyX29mX3BhZ2Vz OiAyMQ0KDQpBYnN0cmFjdDoNCkluIG1vc3QgUlRQLWJhc2VkIG11bHRpY2FzdCBhcHBsaWNhdGlv bnMsIHRoZSBSVFAgc291cmNlIHNlbmRzIGludGVyLQ0KcmVsYXRlZCBkYXRhLiAgRHVlIHRvIHRo aXMgaW50ZXJkZXBlbmRlbmN5LCByYW5kb21seSBqb2luaW5nIFJUUA0KcmVjZWl2ZXJzIHVzdWFs bHkgY2Fubm90IHN0YXJ0IGNvbnN1bWluZyB0aGUgbXVsdGljYXN0IGRhdGEgcmlnaHQNCmFmdGVy IHRoZXkgam9pbiB0aGUgc2Vzc2lvbi4gIFRodXMsIHRoZXkgb2Z0ZW4gZXhwZXJpZW5jZSBhIHJh bmRvbQ0KYWNxdWlzaXRpb24gZGVsYXkuICBBbiBSVFAgcmVjZWl2ZXIgbWF5IHVzZSBvbmUgb3Jl IG1vcmUgZGlmZmVyZW50DQphcHByb2FjaGVzIHRvIGFjaGlldmUgcmFwaWQgYWNxdWlzaXRpb24u ICBZZXQsIGR1ZSB0byB2YXJpb3VzDQpmYWN0b3JzLCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgcmFwaWQg YWNxdWlzaXRpb24gbWV0aG9kcyB1c3VhbGx5IHZhcmllcy4NCkZ1cnRoZXJtb3JlLCBpbiBzb21l IGNhc2VzIHRoZSBSVFAgcmVjZWl2ZXIgbWF5IChvciBtYXkgaGF2ZSB0bykgZG8gYQ0Kc2ltcGxl IG11bHRpY2FzdCBqb2luLiAgRm9yIHF1YWxpdHkgcmVwb3J0aW5nLCBtb25pdG9yaW5nIGFuZA0K ZGlhZ25vc3RpY3MgcHVycG9zZXMsIGl0IGlzIGltcG9ydGFudCB0byBjb2xsZWN0IGRldGFpbGVk IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uDQpmcm9tIHRoZSBSVFAgcmVjZWl2ZXJzIGFib3V0IHRoZWlyIGFjcXVpc2l0 aW9uIGFuZCBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24NCmV4cGVyaWVuY2VzLiAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBhZGRyZXNz ZXMgdGhpcyBpc3N1ZSBieSBkZWZpbmluZyBhIG5ldw0KcmVwb3J0IGJsb2NrIHR5cGUsIGNhbGxl ZCBNdWx0aWNhc3QgQWNxdWlzaXRpb24gKE1BKSBSZXBvcnQgQmxvY2ssDQp3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGZy YW1ld29yayBvZiBSVFAgQ29udHJvbCBQcm90b2NvbCAoUlRDUCkgRXh0ZW5kZWQgUmVwb3J0cw0K KFhSKSAoUkZDIDM2MTEpLiAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBhbHNvIGRlZmluZXMgdGhlIG5lY2Vzc2Fy eSBzaWduYWxpbmcNCm9mIHRoZSBuZXcgTUEgcmVwb3J0IGJsb2NrIHR5cGUgaW4gdGhlIFNlc3Np b24gRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gUHJvdG9jb2wNCihTRFApLg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IA0KDQoNClRoZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0Lg0KDQoNCg== From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 07:00:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D673A6B57; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.581 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.581 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IYddtaTuNWaD; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B71D3A6A34; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.14 Message-ID: <20110330140002.11419.87891.idtracker@localhost> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:00:02 -0700 Cc: avtext@ietf.org Subject: [avtext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01.txt X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:00:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multicast Acquisition Report Block Type for RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Extended Reports (XRs) Author(s) : A. Begen, E. Friedrich Filename : draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2011-03-30 In most RTP-based multicast applications, the RTP source sends inter- related data. Due to this interdependency, randomly joining RTP receivers usually cannot start consuming the multicast data right after they join the session. Thus, they often experience a random acquisition delay. An RTP receiver may use one ore more different approaches to achieve rapid acquisition. Yet, due to various factors, performance of the rapid acquisition methods usually varies. Furthermore, in some cases the RTP receiver may (or may have to) do a simple multicast join. For quality reporting, monitoring and diagnostics purposes, it is important to collect detailed information from the RTP receivers about their acquisition and presentation experiences. This document addresses this issue by defining a new report block type, called Multicast Acquisition (MA) Report Block, within the framework of RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Extended Reports (XR) (RFC 3611). This document also defines the necessary signaling of the new MA report block type in the Session Description Protocol (SDP). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avtext-multicast-acq-rtcp-xr-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-30065205.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From Even.roni@huawei.com Thu Mar 31 01:25:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: avtext@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13893A6B26 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:25:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZZWhzpfItDq for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8873A6B2B for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 01:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIW000UMY2P8F@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:25:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LIW0071KY2PNK@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for avtext@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:25:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from windows8d787f9 (dhcp-44e0.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.68.224]) by szxml12-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0LIW007LYY2HK5@szxml12-in.huawei.com>; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:25:37 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:25:06 +0200 From: Roni Even In-reply-to: To: "'DRAGE, Keith (Keith)'" , avtext@ietf.org Message-id: <00ff01cbef7d$29100fa0$7b302ee0$%roni@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-us Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcvtYWJNNJPDTxTUQZyk6+srEdsGcACG6SLQ References: Subject: Re: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 X-BeenThere: avtext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Extensions working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:25:14 -0000 Hi, I support adding a milestone for splicing and will help review this work Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: avtext-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:avtext-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 6:01 PM > To: avtext@ietf.org > Subject: [avtext] Splicing: Confirmation of decisions at IETF#80 > > (As WG chair) > > There was significant interest in the face-to-face meeting to creating > a milestone in the WG. The essence of the milestone will be to address > the use case of splicing using existing tools provided in RTP. It will > therefore be an informational document. > > Unless the chairs hear contrary positions on the mailing list, the > chairs will discussing such a milestone with the AD and adding it to > our list of milestones in AVTEXT. > > Please respond by the end of this week (Friday). > > This does not adopt the current text as a working group item. The > author will provide another revision of this document based on comments > made, and other comments that people may wish to contribute now, and we > will make a call to adopt text at that point. Please take this as an > invitation to contribution other material either via the mailing list > or via separate internet-drafts. > > Regards > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > avtext mailing list > avtext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avtext