From nobody Fri Apr 1 04:45:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28C812D576 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 04:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xhmo8-AhDOfi for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 04:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67CA212D556 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 04:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 191so17075807wmq.0 for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 04:44:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=le9BM88RtzOTPHUzQc7ME2X0ha+qxHa2M4W2PkuBu7E=; b=bKOQI30/WguXg4jG+JrR+kL4xakDkCByCzBklAzlVq/DlzAFOrKJhrCe5XDzD1TraA qGSQHB9wFBLiiwn6IpASPf5bi0+Ki4ZzqXyhChvDDwQfJWOH56D5bo0a07SmNp0/wUKB t+spjmiSnNeI09OM+t0vb9J0d5wNAlfhtvYz+IncctbgIesabu1R/3hFE/gVHTN7g3z2 H/HOapLBs1eIEbMcxJWYpLjZAPBhIFC5GFjUy0s8n0qbfKnBMP3PiJsmsY4h1isgAK5n MwlbpZBGsvvwIw05Ju4Kj/xrTuo8Uv4DQyCwDDeIXeMEHVxUdU2FmGUY5kMk9VrvuBsl bMBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=le9BM88RtzOTPHUzQc7ME2X0ha+qxHa2M4W2PkuBu7E=; b=JFGKq7lL5BbQhq5dFr/X7izm/+Giah9QmJ+ymVutvk9v3RVWknAv7TZUpoFFFUMYyj rEDC24N0g+uiJFifK3FqOSGZVsEtpfUsuIiaibo2uyRblwQGpnfQHzKcej8PQ4w+Ewzk tPyrW+c4TTp7f+t50CyqlVfUyboR71LGL6i3oKA4vdGq5iG92bzoSIEQYHDdWQzFBOGc DqnSfuWH4jMGmD34shJCgUGA8ksFUI4N/CI7UVMVAwueTIzW7Hpbh0oIsrS14EfBCvSw 68qlddiaoMPBu1VAmytFv1EjenkSgwGQs17QnU6U0DMn9gWJmw6CLP6d5X1VnQCtWNjl 4fNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIUs3eNq9MaBMd2aOTvaf5fQDxFzbW35ED/2BHBw/O5x0oICoaWW8XtL+CyN4UUJ0zTRjnmzCj4DU70gxIJ X-Received: by 10.194.246.194 with SMTP id xy2mr9677769wjc.65.1459511095666; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.2.19 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 04:44:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56FDA925.2000404@joelhalpern.com> References: <56FDA925.2000404@joelhalpern.com> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:44:15 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01681934678dbf052f6ae882 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Note Taker? X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 11:45:06 -0000 --089e01681934678dbf052f6ae882 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:48 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > In order to conduct the BoF, we will need a note taker. [=E2=80=A6] > Can someone please commit to doing this. It will make starting the > meeting much smoother. > I assume the note taker cannot be remote, right? Gabriel --089e01681934678dbf052f6ae882 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:48 AM, Joel M. Hal= pern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
In o= rder to conduct the BoF, we will need a note taker. =C2=A0[=E2=80=A6]
Can someone please commit to doing this.=C2=A0 It will make starting the me= eting much smoother.

I assume the note taker= cannot be remote, right?

Gabriel
--089e01681934678dbf052f6ae882-- From nobody Fri Apr 1 06:12:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBCB12D5D6 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:12:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qqTK-4BsR1Mm for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAF4A12D5CC for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73965360613; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1459516329; bh=KvqiiNI9sd5TtL6frUfIz+dZ0m8HGWZsF8daNSWg0rI=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=B0kDamP/xfcDiS/x3J9hAdXdC9mQkHNqa/qegnU3fLGRqpHF3IKJqfuHaBVFgRSXd 7UStN5df7L8nAvzHUC253AFIzKPver3yGE8ZWYjkwAN0XWYXgw/hm+riY7IM5TaA8P MIxtULsbGmdNqjcTVWpP2sxGcyyuSC1J+CW6RzL0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila1.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B499360B1A; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:12:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Wicinski References: <56FDA925.2000404@joelhalpern.com> <31BDC643-62E9-452D-B55C-D299C055A842@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <56FE73A3.5020102@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:12:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31BDC643-62E9-452D-B55C-D299C055A842@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Note Taker? X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:12:11 -0000 Thanks Tim. We accept your offer. Yours, Joel On 4/1/16 8:58 AM, Tim Wicinski wrote: > I can do this if no one has spoken. > > Tim > > From my high tech gadget > >> On Mar 31, 2016, at 19:48, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> In order to conduct the BoF, we will need a note taker. The job is NOT to capture every word spoken. Nor is it to capture what is on the slides. Folks can look at those. >> >> THe job is to capture what the topics were (so that the right slides can be examined, and important points that were raised. >> >> In particular, during the charter discussion, any agreements in the room to make changes will need to be captured in the minutes so Tony and I can make sure that the changes get made (assuming that the email list agrees with the room.) >> >> Can someone please commit to doing this. It will make starting the meeting much smoother. >> >> Thank you, >> Joel and Tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> babel mailing list >> babel@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > From nobody Fri Apr 1 06:13:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF0712D59A for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:13:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AswhLufiQOTO for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC2E712D159 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41E8360736; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:13:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1459516390; bh=vZueh9HR0rE96kvfJiLuLswv6u21MwqNsLcaIEC845E=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=alcfBuPR9ZEZPTkm0cAkAMox/BIiyRuY8lWr+rM8Wo7r4zNs4ojohFIDTfVTXiEo2 iU/Ojvs993xDOaUfKJKE2wzKxFafQDuHE33bs/0v4TyTb7ehpUuSETguNvfeEFKbdl aAPlpjTnCHPWiOJdGSka0sbvB11fh4nxHkDNrh0o= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila1.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FE633600F0; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 06:13:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Wicinski , Babel at IETF References: <56FDA925.2000404@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <56FE73E1.1000500@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:13:05 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Note Taker? X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:13:13 -0000 Yes, this conflict was noted late in the scheduling process. I gather we still need to find a note taker? Someone, please step up. Yours, Joel On 4/1/16 9:06 AM, Tim Wicinski wrote: > Apologies. It turns out Babel conflicts with dnssd. Arrggh > > From my high tech gadget > >> On Mar 31, 2016, at 19:48, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> In order to conduct the BoF, we will need a note taker. The job is NOT to capture every word spoken. Nor is it to capture what is on the slides. Folks can look at those. >> >> THe job is to capture what the topics were (so that the right slides can be examined, and important points that were raised. >> >> In particular, during the charter discussion, any agreements in the room to make changes will need to be captured in the minutes so Tony and I can make sure that the changes get made (assuming that the email list agrees with the room.) >> >> Can someone please commit to doing this. It will make starting the meeting much smoother. >> >> Thank you, >> Joel and Tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> babel mailing list >> babel@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > From nobody Sat Apr 2 21:05:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4653A12D519 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:05:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPC2y7wt7ydX for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E0B712D0C0 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id ui10so36019448igc.1 for ; Sat, 02 Apr 2016 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xo1Br1YtOVyVmWbnFy8d8NMlEAMtcagbuFP5Gq3W3pE=; b=MIILbmZ5znRoFvIM5ykaT6zvmRGTReoElaJoVaboc352feTc52a6xe65VoSj2fX7y1 u0iWc8FoXFnxeIm7NoqaLxV4r+EJrWiImaRXSDugDgqD6mgkOqklIQf6HUlg149dwWLd PSWpweMOPoVEVuVlEksazdl89zisEMudjj6B9+7hLLpID1D6ETUo//lxTpkbni6e6HMn Y94eRLhUp1I7pb04HGGo9Jbx8UHBTcMPBuiwJVePeMhhYZuDr3rDdgHSIDr4M7RWcu+1 b1Az96HJQQO1lLn7tQKW+P0Oh5qLRL3VGps5XqqeottZRf8BdhVZwMv6wCgGoTtLi9vO bGfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xo1Br1YtOVyVmWbnFy8d8NMlEAMtcagbuFP5Gq3W3pE=; b=OIw2QT0lUFdfpToUVkeqn4PvcYewC4nGQO1qC0Rj2isMA2TQkSxGrrlolA7w1ayQSQ Y2z5sWWOYOxlMaEs+afPBknvpoPGneAIDOZcO3OTicTIzbqvWX41p/rD+BI1GNX1FMxq V9r3yZZCpUnxYgwCQfdLdYxPDwGugpKDYY3Nrk1knVzACxpo+dVD4ZdepZ//5EII+5Ka OjynmsGHYsYxMm/9vY1AZAGGZN22b5KTY9VmVKavIjo5hxwsSTqr5G4WnmYxF+qwSlz4 UjVc0pPa6RqHXxv44TBwd8MwFLlAy5VcmYrxg4P8W4ujgU6OPTOjg8VNOk4onB2MYXfD G4IA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJITuoXKqKAf6K/oet/DxL3IURoZfNaoGuCMxdeo2K1Ci4m80pupWiHlFwUipIQcmicCoxlvZBBklbATGA== X-Received: by 10.50.155.1 with SMTP id vs1mr4799669igb.1.1459656324999; Sat, 02 Apr 2016 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.198.198 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:04:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56FDA0FA.3000405@joelhalpern.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:04:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1e7eabef266052f8cb800 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] BoF prep, please X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 04:05:27 -0000 --001a11c1e7eabef266052f8cb800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 speaking of which, I'm working on the flippies for my presentation as we speak and such should be delivered tomorrow about lunchtime ;-) But I have iron-clad excuses of course ;-) --- tony On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > possibly even _very_ upset. enough said ... > > --- tony > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >> Speakers, the chairs (Tony and me) need your slides. We need to upload >> them so folks can get them from the repository. I recommend PDF. >> >> It is quite acceptable to talk without slides. But we will be upset if >> you show up at the last minute, with slides that have not been uploaded. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> _______________________________________________ >> babel mailing list >> babel@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >> > > > --001a11c1e7eabef266052f8cb800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
speaking of which, I'm working on the flippies for my = presentation as we speak and such should be delivered tomorrow about luncht= ime ;-) =C2=A0But I have iron-clad excuses of course ;-)

--- tony=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Tony Przygienda <= tonysietf@gmail.co= m> wrote:
= possibly even _very_ upset. enough said ...=C2=A0

--- to= ny=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jm= h@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
S= peakers, the chairs (Tony and me) need your slides.=C2=A0 We need to upload= them so folks can get them from the repository.=C2=A0 I recommend PDF.

It is quite acceptable to talk without slides.=C2=A0 But we will be upset i= f you show up at the last minute, with slides that have not been uploaded.<= br>
Yours,
Joel

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel


--001a11c1e7eabef266052f8cb800-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 14:28:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256EF12D8C5 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1C1sIE0BdPrA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 939F912D8BB for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u34LS3CY011600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:03 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u34LS3Zg009623 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:03 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4563061FA7 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 4I1lRaAiGaM9 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (dhcp-a06e.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.160.110]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB5B861FA5 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:28:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 18:27:57 -0300 Message-ID: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Mon, 04 Apr 2016 23:28:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 04 Apr 2016 23:28:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5702DC63.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5702DC63.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5702DC63.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5702DC63.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5702DC63.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5702DC63.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 21:28:08 -0000 There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the charter. It is: the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is what defines the metric. This works in combination with two mechanisms: 1. the loop avoidance mechanism, which guarantees that even when the link quality estimator is unstable the packets are still following loop-free paths; 2. the hysteresis mechanism, which tries to ensure that even when the link quality estimator is unstable the routing doesn't flap too badly. In RFC 6126, the body of the document only specifies the properties that a metric must have. An example link estimator is in an appendix, and the RFC tries to encourage experimenting with other link estimators. No hysteresis algorithm is described in RFC 6126. I did quite a lot of experimenting on hysteresis algorithms, and I've described one that appears to work well in Section IV.B of http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.3488v1.pdf . Now please stop reading. 1. The link quality estimator currently implemented and described is very naïve, and has horribly slow convergence (you get one bit of data per Hello exchange), but it is easy to implement and doesn't require any cross-layer interactions. Much better can be done, either by listening to physical layer parameters (as the OpenRouting people have shown), or by hooking into the link layer (Minstrel data in the case of Linux). This is non-portable and tricky to implement, but the benefits are huge. Since all of our users use Babel in fixed networks, where link quality evolves slowly, there is little incentive to work on that. 2. The hysteresis algorithm is clean and works well, but I haven't yet found out what properties are desirable for a hysteresis algorithm. -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Apr 4 14:54:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1F212D562 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x_ogIDxVtJ79 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2944A12D1AA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id E2FA9A2; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:54:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1459806854; bh=tkiTbccqdQMsguFuLSw0M/nOQC0KmcMQlW6H4iSf/Ao=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=fAGdWZvHr18uBJQqKO27s4lQQiQHBRiSg50pUkDZrUFUeqVNcYdxS8/ICDfgJTS07 ayKEA6Eiy5Obt+ckCEv/nOELCqeWfHRyO+2cSH6PVCtzu8TlHToiwi3GASLQ/3zaV/ 3rqoFT+teEqlecGyaZFkydlAEYIeLaA3/P17Umd0= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8249A1; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:54:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:54:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Juliusz Chroboczek In-Reply-To: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 21:54:19 -0000 On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel BoF, > which I'd like to reply to in detail. > > Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link metrics, > and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the charter. It is: > the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is what > defines the metric. My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also does link quality estimations and sets metrics. So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does this as I was approximately a year ago. So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually work the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious what's going on. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Mon Apr 4 15:10:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F6312D8C9 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:10:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lh7Aq_e1312O for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3319212D8D6 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79216d00000767f-c1-5702e041d9ed Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DD.73.30335.140E2075; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 23:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB105.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.122]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 18:10:40 -0400 From: Uma Chunduri To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Juliusz Chroboczek Thread-Topic: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question Thread-Index: AQHRjrjmlGlok42Se02vhHF3QYosAZ96nqoA///AvQA= Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:10:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLrHW9fxAVO4wa7vZhZbFnWzWHz+9I/V 4uXSrWwOzB5Llvxk8ri4+x2jx99JD5kCmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mm48+sBW8Faw4tTjc4wN jHv4uhg5OSQETCTu71rEBmGLSVy4tx7I5uIQEjjKKLHo8C1WCGcZo8Smi91gVWwCehIfp/5k B7FFBOIltrcfYOli5OBgFlCV+H4JbKiwQLDEn5eXmSFKQiQaO66xg5SICFhJrO43AgmzCKhI rL3bygpi8wr4StzZsASsXEigSGLStfMsIDangLPEpEU7wWxGoNu+n1rDBGIzC4hL3Hoynwni ZgGJJXvOM0PYohIvH/9jhbCVJOa8vsYMUa8jsWD3JzYIW1ti2cLXzBB7BSVOznzCMoFRbBaS sbOQtMxC0jILScsCRpZVjBylxQU5uelGBpsYgXFzTIJNdwfj/emehxgFOBiVeHgXnGIMF2JN LCuuzD3EKMHBrCTCu+8hU7gQb0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVx3sbgf2FCAumJJanZqakF qUUwWSYOTqkGxnpbz1bxNJGUu69frtaX5PvRvHlGzcIY3uzWheFXhfxyQ1rYI0vdn7KFrK8M 5st3nn7md/uDhUlHpG9Fff3s8TpPuqWNhfXA14fSXL19a/ZskM6O+6bF+mPH7YZvTK6vue5r bzQvsd+Rp1275YqX1La/Wy75zz168/2WyT9WGD3fPXs9+/wNRkosxRmJhlrMRcWJABrBte2X AgAA Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:10:48 -0000 AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of the rou= ting protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this is a rou= ting functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core protocol. -- Uma C. -----Original Message----- From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's qu= estion On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel=20 > BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > > Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link=20 > metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the charte= r. It is: > the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is=20 > what defines the metric. My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if I und= erstand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also does l= ink quality estimations and sets metrics. So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by this= working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link quality= estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, so th= ey don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does this as I= was approximately a year ago. So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality expli= citly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or make it = out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually work the way= it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, it sho= uld not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious what's go= ing on. --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se _______________________________________________ babel mailing list babel@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Mon Apr 4 15:21:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD02D12D190 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:20:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfPxQorXUSZA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EEBA12D562 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1441C0367; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:20:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1459808438; bh=K2rbSA2D/BX8Fu3z2XiFrc8dtSuxYK4Ia2+vZj4A/hI=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=q2crlP6c514BrOY9tqjLWu5MbRWpQ9msn9iXe9lzAuLiXZv2KX5p6V3Uei2+U12F5 AETkxp3jXb0IHRVLeFssZf2hPWzxVSaA2Hp8S3VWQNOfAqzv83T1PDLm9XLu2EdAg4 9F9wKlPtpUguk3fsk4ARuJ/QVvEl/0CVIcdl3FLE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from dhcp-b496.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-b496.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.180.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D36EC1C01A2; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:20:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Juliusz Chroboczek References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5702E8B3.3080306@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 18:20:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:20:59 -0000 My personal opinion is that 1) The link metric estimation extension should be a later piece of work, after we do what needs be done to get to PS. 2) If we do such an extension, the mechanisms and any constants it recommends should be developed in collaboration with the relevant exprtise either here in the IETF or in other places like the IEEE. (It may be that the mechanism can be developed in Babel, and only reviewed elsewhere. The parameters would seem to need tighter collaboration.) Yours, Joel On 4/4/16 5:54 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel BoF, >> which I'd like to reply to in detail. >> >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link metrics, >> and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the charter. It >> is: >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is what >> defines the metric. > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if I > understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also > does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, so > they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does this > as I was approximately a year ago. > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually > work the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, it > should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious > what's going on. > From nobody Mon Apr 4 15:35:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00FF12D8C8 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUTldQXprgwn for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E503912D646 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id y89so165348419qge.2 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 15:35:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=qNYhifSNA0ACrHO6XDSpDnY2sFCby8D2iv5rmXsI3E4=; b=gKLp0PVlyRI0FS8LdlfP8mfz1OqUQhCFr6GunDWuCWq3ojf8w9gemZ5/mbMMXADyol /GskDVkmC0Ju4SgAaXbLfTCnzONcqDaTJgEHl6ZlFzkSDQRTAhBDQtDd1cEjJ6tYUMxX uJxXoFj4hoqBkkJ/HlEB8LJ2CKspyDwgsu8dBuFaA2joAaBnZgmfxAflAvLHtYA3p4Gr CHKLqTzkVGzAnRq8+pG5LORJFf757D07RpC2cdmQ4wQGNaksJP3Jvcp0xKi7X4xcxFt/ agQ+1okM8n2EfVYcq3TEKf2agL2EQbkhE/zYR+DUGf4EgAALqrxBwTGJRHeGG/2EdaRR fxKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=qNYhifSNA0ACrHO6XDSpDnY2sFCby8D2iv5rmXsI3E4=; b=BqYsLvw8iNhCu71qESLB/ByX/OHLr74krhbFG2UGp5HjXgWoK/2xR2m6eJ7gve+4qj ooym9DX34CzQ0GdRc6mbEYtRRA9bNgh3Wnv7oa725NZrGL1pAGvz6jU27wAFo/3Y7v8i ug9U8DwS6FFpQxGHhPQTbWKSy+GwmLlDB95774q8+hpVKFedQoqwJTKHFOwpAPlIM1cP y2unUXdKga02v/9LJ8/ekvhxTQg2A4zr/75V2oqo8/FDhfXuq2SjvPqFdNH2s9yfZ8iW BQA0HT5w/+Gt0vMdpchCEzyMrC3TflCP2uhwkQtCLN0eh2eWMbtGxyVVRDFoPsDwQdzz 61HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKuxLqfEq++txlMTLLxGcvpniqTRaEPGCTHvIqHqJ0LzLgEEhpy4FeURQmM6LdKLw== X-Received: by 10.140.242.77 with SMTP id n74mr13713476qhc.2.1459809307575; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 15:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:160:e1a2:5f40:1c8:4d2e? ([2001:67c:370:160:e1a2:5f40:1c8:4d2e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f24sm13350893qkf.6.2016.04.04.15.35.05 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Apr 2016 15:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_13E8A284-254D-4AE2-A07D-2938366C4CCE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 00:35:03 +0200 Message-Id: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> To: Uma Chunduri X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , "babel@ietf.org" , Mikael Abrahamsson Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:35:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_13E8A284-254D-4AE2-A07D-2938366C4CCE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment, = here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for = example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or = Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel = doesn't care.. RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is = needed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. = Timers could be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when = medium is shared. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue = these days. Teco > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri = het volgende geschreven: >=20 > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of = the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. >=20 > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this is = a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core = protocol. >=20 > -- > Uma C. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael = Abrahamsson > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > Cc: babel@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to = Mickael's question >=20 > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >=20 >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. >>=20 >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the = charter. It is: >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is >> what defines the metric. >=20 > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if = I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it = also does link quality estimations and sets metrics. >=20 > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by = this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link = quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). >=20 > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, = so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does = this as I was approximately a year ago. >=20 > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality = explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or = make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually = work the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. >=20 > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, = it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious = what's going on. >=20 > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --Apple-Mail=_13E8A284-254D-4AE2-A07D-2938366C4CCE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXAuwXAAoJECQbXIDdIQWqvy4P/iFFxN+yAa9W7NGW+I8jPT7L h9Dd5E85MdCbgdE/6x7CcYN1qtLRrbS+SnFTGUiNUh3LGgSCzRftTzd02eQ/bHRJ xYkZAJA9WIcUkqqGpIe1KrCB/KP+troACjB2iMGSCJ7I/iOjwKstd+bbjySiD8Ml 3wKjafPAWBuFvHy2TvQSgzEXCyZ3V6b4o1NHTf4DyPX7MzNPYYKlmO37oRTvDQ7h JgqphUVRTLgNI+RTmFtXqGUIQv7/vspFC5FuP9Jy6AAmcT9OdsfalIupSyERWbFU II0n14k3OWFGVBy45SWXEJxtrH4oCfs5R5JzKWv5EUw+qrPEnAVglqUHy1bOwrqe ycXMODdv7TzsNozF/i9krGqKUv+xYzz1x033ZJqDmkCikHs1iTkW1/RPSPhmsb1N I/nouiXn2gONqLjBm6JFopJMdmFKAU7txCkKqx0hHGLzBL8wH30+e2hf8iRYdeb2 LqxnC4cS1ls8788k1qlB4XL3udDkhqzn4s5ZW+58LnPX7rqOMndOhGaBFHwRSuRt G0bj52z4pib+tERwKnUCxPqC0QtF1FFWtwcR42Dweb4C8JU/UddXmZ7VYPEByGIo 8Dh6Nz6K4sOaca6ZQyFXKQcBYTV8bYFIrGrBbf7q1wj4+gABeGya9mdUbLGodhZb vwB6PtR/WMJqloNx28S0 =zZ6d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_13E8A284-254D-4AE2-A07D-2938366C4CCE-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 20:53:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE6712D0FD for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:53:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pbs_euMumykv for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35BCD12D153 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id g185so4868139ioa.2 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:53:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I6nGzlpiXhr0DNC48dz64rb8on2xEqyDTt5bEtI396E=; b=awDdLH68dHd/cRMSpHLFg9wzqVftFKUdBJEV6YZF725sfgBUnqtS4qw42qfD5zgzsy AuCqgYScsN8cEcPRBk81PPmZDw7e6r88QWhkjD7dq8kYNFQNZFQVVf7Yju5GWzAbNw7b gryz6YfBNupqkyoobEN5x2UXLGKcwsU0ryRIyyksCM8Be37cqY7cYOozCH3Bh0MQmEru GqjhYgSCUv/p5ErP3Vyhor0htwAu+mN3I7Cp4AYyxYVNuGkE7MDFLHtl2V+WoTMdTXGq oUfOWbDs1l3YickBn+I6RmwhrfH3WKxnvWYLLvEZhJnHb/6JrDVY3Dv9dDIit+J4y4Za JD/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=I6nGzlpiXhr0DNC48dz64rb8on2xEqyDTt5bEtI396E=; b=PgpfT8B20y3za2PCEBc0Hk/fEVAlaLa/+9HyMjW3AFmSk6wE3wAsTW2FNj2l6WzDqB d6e/bG6zeoapIa1CHozPezokhkGDyBjfUp7raF3ZwwHPCzSsVYzGAK/xhe4+lrSnOEk2 WImHB4QTPHIxaXdbU/u/5vACi88O3V6hhh0q+2eKwuMWJqMdQr7Jj9vOl1d4yCc77URQ wo9HYDrTBcvZDGoZKyaL3wQlna2exnC8vNgoHsucL09z6OZtselm1zqnKA7He5FZ7RA9 F8fKJqNJDjJqMxqVBpGi9Pu4ep0PiwrByYxwhwyNAjoZ+CKSXpVT8fNkun6nualrEhA2 6KXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKoERaJ1Gub5HQ/CbgIDTMP83yRW7BZoYEoSoPrFsYbqFw6T8OEMlVSaff9LqUysNMHXIAuRWSoZRx7Fg== X-Received: by 10.107.165.78 with SMTP id o75mr16031307ioe.56.1459828409446; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:53:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.198.198 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:52:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:52:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Teco Boot Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141f262c73832052fb4c933 Archived-At: Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , Uma Chunduri , "babel@ietf.org" , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 03:53:33 -0000 --001a1141f262c73832052fb4c933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The spec + normative references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normative reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices possible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. convergence) if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goes I suggest extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on different routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior & loop/blackhole free behavior. --- tony On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment, > here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for > example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or > Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn'= t > care.. > > RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is needed. > I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. Timers cou= ld > be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when medium is shared. > Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these days. > > Teco > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri > het volgende geschreven: > > > > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of the > routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. > > > > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this is a > routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core > protocol. > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael > Abrahamsson > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > > Cc: babel@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael'= s > question > > > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel > >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > >> > >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link > >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the > charter. It is: > >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is > >> what defines the metric. > > > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if I > understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also > does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). > > > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, s= o > they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does this = as > I was approximately a year ago. > > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually wo= rk > the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. > > > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, it > should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious what= 's > going on. > > > > -- > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a1141f262c73832052fb4c933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
all fine but don't forget the "interoperability&q= uot;. The spec + normative references (if e.g. estimation is provided by an= other normative reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (o= r choices possible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. = convergence)=C2=A0

if you think that "babel doesn&#= 39;t care" and any value goes I suggest extensive simulation over exte= nsive range of values (mixed on different routers) and see whether you get = acceptable convergence behavior & loop/blackhole free behavior.=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot = <= teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
For= having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment, here h= as to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for example 802 = + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or Babel WG that = come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn't care..

RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is needed. I= expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. Timers could = be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when medium is shared. Ma= ybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these days.

Teco


> Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@ericsson.com> het volgende gesch= reven:
>
> AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of th= e routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality.
>
> May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this= is a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core p= rotocol.
>
> --
> Uma C.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: babel [mailto:babel-bo= unces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM
> To: Juliusz Chroboczek
> Cc: babel@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael= 's question
>
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
>
>> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel=
>> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail.
>>
>> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link
>> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the= charter.=C2=A0 It is:
>> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator i= s
>> what defines the metric.
>
> My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if = I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also d= oes link quality estimations and sets metrics.
>
> So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by= this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link qu= ality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know).
>
> I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, = so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does = this as I was approximately a year ago.
>
> So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality = explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or mak= e it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually work th= e way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality.
>
> The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, i= t should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious = what's going on.
>
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel


_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel




--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a = million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of = Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--001a1141f262c73832052fb4c933-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 05:47:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4E212D1AF for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:47:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lIrhkLvt4Zi4 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16FA712D103 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k135so476745qke.0 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:47:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=IP09Wab7w0kvCLr82w2HEgjdyDsRBgOr+HSGFwfgIeM=; b=W88AqIsClh/w3ahMDl3FxotYC0QzSzfTBLa756WLO3dA0QiLmIW1objFjloABOUVGi Jms9Oqp/CgUgFUjvVUoYiQ+0LOEo3NrcRYyXfwrw/8I3xpaK+NM3HAP0L/yL4FMVPtWv Kwhhi/Mlcq3zVFbp8lsYmaJygjLRsqhuxILlk7selKW+cKmNX7T+6B2f1sJvgCiqTSBN dlbBqNkaPP94czGdho+Vgu5uRnxdjPal2onQvATPuPWHKBS28BFiasILq2rseQyGJbTb zSwYw76ZetP2ybOFiML6nrr7+3EUsw7izeUBGNBKgU4Ml6gLNrvTYdn0eRsecKi7AjVj yZIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=IP09Wab7w0kvCLr82w2HEgjdyDsRBgOr+HSGFwfgIeM=; b=fi3jIP8Ert0mmWtfAPkT25Xiqwp6Sq6VJcSNHS4wlNC6Ezx1UMnQ7vOkLp/7PsjFca Z1cg0uX9ualn5OVtpWSV2RUqF4bh3uUhE1x09ln8FZe2lLzbEMZj7alY3K9S28MHLsvo cQ0yqyqW+bvmZE5pA1olX/kv6FE1j7SR7gX61DPN8y4skgxwT7AGrhRli5uABMyZj9ly kx6scosuIJN3KMXsSvmkWrtFZdjqfm5dQ/2Aj+Fo379cE02gwW3M2t+1NkPXok6H/ann mZXp17w8ZTSNxBhDXIe0XE5TDKrao2gu6nAC6Cm0hZNd+OU7GUe91Z1j7Tnus4dol0uA TRDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIzMPWYch6533bgu8jxsVoDTuhNQReKG2qaqe8bBQgBQ255eFbwLUveKMpiFH82eQ== X-Received: by 10.55.74.14 with SMTP id x14mr40761398qka.70.1459860433377; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.8.123] ([190.111.246.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o5sm14478616qkl.23.2016.04.05.05.47.10 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C4BA06E1-1142-42D5-8A03-39EFB80252E5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:47:08 +0200 Message-Id: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> To: Tony Przygienda X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , Uma Chunduri , "babel@ietf.org" , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:47:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C4BA06E1-1142-42D5-8A03-39EFB80252E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Agreed. I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real = stuff also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative = feedback with ETX on 802.11 links. Teco > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda = het volgende geschreven: >=20 > all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The spec + normative = references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normative = reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices = possible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. = convergence) >=20 > if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goes I suggest = extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on different = routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior & = loop/blackhole free behavior. >=20 > --- tony >=20 > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor = equipment, here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot = ask for example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is = Homenet WG or Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not = needed, babel doesn't care.. >=20 > RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is = needed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. = Timers could be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when = medium is shared. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue = these days. >=20 > Teco >=20 >=20 > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri = het volgende geschreven: > > > > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of = the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. > > > > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this = is a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core = protocol. > > > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael = Abrahamsson > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > > Cc: babel@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to = Mickael's question > > > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel > >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > >> > >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link > >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the = charter. It is: > >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is > >> what defines the metric. > > > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area = (if I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it = also does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done = by this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not = link quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't = know). > > > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to = everybody, so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that = Babel does this as I was approximately a year ago. > > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting = functionality explicitly in the charter as being something that would be = in-scope, or make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel = to actually work the way it was intended and described, it needs this = functionality. > > > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, = it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious = what's going on. > > > > -- > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards = could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the = Internet, we know that is not true. > =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --Apple-Mail=_C4BA06E1-1142-42D5-8A03-39EFB80252E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXA7PMAAoJECQbXIDdIQWqNp4P/1IFXgYf0Qz+8P/ZfNri0M7Q qOUgT7NeuUm2xYslCsR5PwmN3AgNvjaSPik2NaBwiQs6AbeP+NgE6FrAJ/aheCMj THgfzIAi7LxqMRcJtaYZ6LbEgw0teoToWRUGe8f0hfCR6w/50kRnDHbKOa92LZCC 1rd6OK31LJpl1WkXrq/TRqCO5dZVoceOPEPLOPliANPF3ooAHEoIlN86r8keVDYb e54TRpbmbUwyAAh8poJ5Pc8ffJLrsmkmp4pNQADmy2yQIF5oeO5Nt11jtbjUGZZ2 ZSfyE1pjqCl6byTtF1q5KTSR8dYhgvhe4MkhpPo4yfvZ9g148PVZkyy24mFHTxzG yVqInLHQpSfm+j+fdHCvDVFQ1LswDv+7x87vxfk/YIvs8Xm1VwOGdoJ3nNofD6qh 6lEolUBUzMWU/5S/fp5jNoelXfz/VnqWc0fwDQORn8fTlD3JgjOx+eLCeZ4ekS4E hgply4laHBOBj3Z1gq2qmUyny7vGmpBOX66Xp45OCk36yTpPFbjxPbdNVIpYbVQ9 sh//PjFz9vIze+ruWHlOD80NM/g23q9HVzjG5xSKHwhukYkWCRwktNEFHNNrhO7h pMkjXGjDS/4frOIshMijoHwS8cHjALebtPuUwTI1XmpC/IYVaawJD2T0kUYgP12G VASLDFPQyDve1qa2O5Ro =AAyb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C4BA06E1-1142-42D5-8A03-39EFB80252E5-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 05:56:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC48512D5AD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4FkMRUltnO8s for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FC1012D699 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id n3so20462509wmn.0 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:56:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IBOfRuzWCuAgg6CeYd62w8nIzI3y+HCOsDDxV7xDjdY=; b=gDwQy3qy4+n3G/Azw+zf+iRHd0YVrcL5IOfG+rJZ+1LvESEsEHEbaH/iwZe66O3ibZ z0D2tMZdFnaSzU6SDg0bvl5QTThSvTiJoo4B0+lo/4aUX0xh0qk2yO0WGSe0j4ijgyhQ QbFCYe2bmdOnVOa8zniCkJCqNs0CV/iDwHKheMoV91ARmPSNmwtMWXy89L1Yx4+5IIiu 8Hti4mJgyvuROW3tJ55uNOlAGX3TFl3rr/Opridyokaq6jnoEEAk6uuVTmQKdG4i5NK+ AR6tSxEF7zf2jMd1Vp3a6d2fylhJKrYEQYT9Mbp8ketREsBAZQ/oCtRXQLa+mS1Bn5DD W9JA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IBOfRuzWCuAgg6CeYd62w8nIzI3y+HCOsDDxV7xDjdY=; b=GRJhMrWSAm2JtmDbVdX6ZnylN5NaXfqzXAupv2YMzVXl29xBW51LXLDue5OYMLB1rg zV/KGEQrvAXT368RkBDWXbUj3+h5dBNNxIaXqZSkL4fP2GytMUJ/uiHTq769gdPc+xWf tn7cE7qyLigyTVtU8a5gb48B5jngY+ow8NsdJzYqdibtAG3LQy517owm5BvbCZMe1LNE rFOivY3ne1L9Y+Lzcszn8UbetCs67ZXjBXtlg0vDXhYoBD/m8T27Al7TznFAtotzzR4O AyHmxANLR98Nb/y7Q6FP9IIuTQL8lqt7fCHwGeaxgSx2wxQXB+JITQoyYvCe4HEXfy/V TSQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKglmT57u013psvjieAg9UjY3H8Ym8EL1uvIPQfxmbTVuAIyt2rJUljG1IaHF3NKdmAFTKk0sz+2kw6zKbq X-Received: by 10.194.179.227 with SMTP id dj3mr17033382wjc.50.1459860996992; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 05:56:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.2.19 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 05:55:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:55:57 +0200 Message-ID: To: Teco Boot Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d1e5c261cd6052fbc6026 Archived-At: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , Uma Chunduri , Mikael Abrahamsson , "babel@ietf.org" , Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:56:47 -0000 --089e013d1e5c261cd6052fbc6026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Out of curiosity, what do people generally use to simulate wifi (ad-hoc) links? Gabriel On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > Agreed. > > I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real > stuff also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative > feedback with ETX on 802.11 links. > > Teco > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda > het volgende geschreven: > > > > all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The spec + normative > references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normative reference= ) > must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices possible) that > will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. convergence) > > > > if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goes I suggest > extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on different > routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior & > loop/blackhole free behavior. > > > > --- tony > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > > For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment, > here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for > example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or > Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn'= t > care.. > > > > RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is > needed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. > Timers could be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when mediu= m > is shared. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these > days. > > > > Teco > > > > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri > het volgende geschreven: > > > > > > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of > the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. > > > > > > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this is > a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core > protocol. > > > > > > -- > > > Uma C. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael > Abrahamsson > > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > > > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > > > Cc: babel@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to > Mickael's question > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > > > > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel > > >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > > >> > > >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link > > >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the > charter. It is: > > >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is > > >> what defines the metric. > > > > > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if > I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also > does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > > > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done b= y > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). > > > > > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, > so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does th= is > as I was approximately a year ago. > > > > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually wo= rk > the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. > > > > > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, > it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious > what's going on. > > > > > > -- > > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > > > > > -- > > We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could= produce > the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know > that is not true. > > =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky > > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > --089e013d1e5c261cd6052fbc6026 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Out of curiosity, what do people generally use to simulate= wifi (ad-hoc) links?

Gabriel

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Teco Boot <te= co@inf-net.nl> wrote:
Agree= d.

I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real stuff= also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative feedb= ack with ETX on 802.11 links.

Teco


> Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven: >
> all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The sp= ec + normative references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normat= ive reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices po= ssible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. convergence)=
>
> if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goe= s I suggest extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on d= ifferent routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior &= amp; loop/blackhole free behavior.
>
> --- tony
>
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
> For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment= , here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for exam= ple 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or Babel = WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn't ca= re..
>
> RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is need= ed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. Timers c= ould be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when medium is share= d. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these days.
>
> Teco
>
>
> > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@ericsson.com> het volgende = geschreven:
> >
> > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside = of the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality.
> >
> > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see= this is a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the c= ore protocol.
> >
> > --
> > Uma C.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: babel [mailto:bab= el-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson
> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM
> > To: Juliusz Chroboczek
> > Cc: babel@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mi= ckael's question
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> >
> >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the = Babel
> >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail.
> >>
> >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring lin= k
> >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit i= n the charter.=C2=A0 It is:
> >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estima= tor is
> >> what defines the metric.
> >
> > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area= (if I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it a= lso does link quality estimations and sets metrics.
> >
> > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be do= ne by this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not li= nk quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know).=
> >
> > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everyb= ody, so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel = does this as I was approximately a year ago.
> >
> > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functiona= lity explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, o= r make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually wo= rk the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality.
> >
> > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about th= is, it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obv= ious what's going on.
> >
> > --
> > Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > babel mailing list
> > babel@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > babel mailing list
> > babel@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
>
>
>
>
> --
> We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards coul= d produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, w= e know that is not true.
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky


_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel


--089e013d1e5c261cd6052fbc6026-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 06:37:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405D512D923 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:37:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id arCuC5EmTEiD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8B7E12D174 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id ui10so14055403igc.1 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 06:37:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DM1rG/nyYnj6JGYjP1UN16DJmpgNubCMUtZoUf+I4yo=; b=Xyoq+J9f9VmJC3vXuKQafyBHI6FXaei9Ar+IPCpUMJmbCpHOQ3da7QMIUNMPV20Ck1 r8uy2MG2nPFpRvqA6olreA1sIB8GMaQUk2HLjJpRQfWgIOkoNPDYwbpLMzblRQjsGCXy nVm+TBJMLE+giO5KAGPnqawzTCiKAwkKzqcmPtx6qWZqjCXADexnEaUIdBoyAhw27E4s n3VQd4HwtlnN6a2uo+Fvc4qf7syzd5Y6h/qgOOPk6qyoneXBVUGFNmG2Cz+z7/SpzOaQ f2i4MGHR9xt4/bDRy1mAJ7dPgfb0Jii1BnL+VI6r/WQrClVjBSm/a/RKIRnxH1ZQcgZX DY3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DM1rG/nyYnj6JGYjP1UN16DJmpgNubCMUtZoUf+I4yo=; b=Uf0DS72+yJ7o8en+2knqdGG4buYj1qws3Jh+MmaQZQr1zlx3IM+MMKU/WW8VBsSRRm YiVlsJey4LYq+t0eWZSSgsvvOIN6970g2lQ3SL/DrSAnvuChtzb5EerI5f97DidVQWOb V64VgdU4DLDDF93COEvkJ79lLIv9YKTn3r1A1zFEO6O31EQwKElhkmePjLtryrQVSNhm rSTIi6iYihOtxHi9TxbrX5KqidSfZAbvF5k6mqf9EG7lHaUha9iv3vsrpfm1ONGMccqs WO/tFG2MteuoI29Vk9QCvlNAXRo6BGKC6niYgtagZW3njypb/x1tVu0Sy6sDOCoiOIBe ihIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKgPaJtq8OZmDtC/wvumBfp0K09wYthyAjzEC+r236Nls0+CemoALfALXyd/e7M3XvLO/IpZFGbA8j/8w== X-Received: by 10.50.137.66 with SMTP id qg2mr15407908igb.25.1459863436045; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 06:37:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.198.198 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:36:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 06:36:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Teco Boot Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3c2cc86b88e052fbcf12c Archived-At: Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , Uma Chunduri , "babel@ietf.org" , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:37:19 -0000 --001a11c3c2cc86b88e052fbcf12c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable simulations are controlled experiments and can be rerun. Big advantage. Yes, if the model/simulation does not capture relevant aspects of reality, it's only an academic exercise -) On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:47 AM, Teco Boot wrote: > Agreed. > > I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real > stuff also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative > feedback with ETX on 802.11 links. > > Teco > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda > het volgende geschreven: > > > > all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The spec + normative > references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normative reference= ) > must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices possible) that > will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. convergence) > > > > if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goes I suggest > extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on different > routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior & > loop/blackhole free behavior. > > > > --- tony > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > > For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment, > here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for > example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or > Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn'= t > care.. > > > > RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is > needed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. > Timers could be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when mediu= m > is shared. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these > days. > > > > Teco > > > > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri > het volgende geschreven: > > > > > > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside of > the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. > > > > > > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this is > a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core > protocol. > > > > > > -- > > > Uma C. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael > Abrahamsson > > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > > > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > > > Cc: babel@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to > Mickael's question > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > > > > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the Babel > > >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > > >> > > >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link > > >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in the > charter. It is: > > >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator is > > >> what defines the metric. > > > > > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area (if > I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it also > does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > > > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done b= y > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). > > > > > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everybody, > so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel does th= is > as I was approximately a year ago. > > > > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually wo= rk > the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality. > > > > > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about this, > it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obvious > what's going on. > > > > > > -- > > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > > > > > -- > > We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could= produce > the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know > that is not true. > > =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a11c3c2cc86b88e052fbcf12c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
simulations are controlled experiments and can be rerun. B= ig advantage. Yes, if the model/simulation does not capture relevant aspect= s of reality, it's only an academic exercise -)=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:47= AM, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
Agreed.

I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real stuff= also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative feedb= ack with ETX on 802.11 links.

Teco


> Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven: >
> all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The sp= ec + normative references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another normat= ive reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (or choices po= ssible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. convergence)=
>
> if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goe= s I suggest extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on d= ifferent routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior &= amp; loop/blackhole free behavior.
>
> --- tony
>
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
> For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor equipment= , here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot ask for exam= ple 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is Homenet WG or Babel = WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not needed, babel doesn't ca= re..
>
> RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is need= ed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. Timers c= ould be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when medium is share= d. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue these days.
>
> Teco
>
>
> > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@ericsson.com> het volgende = geschreven:
> >
> > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside = of the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality.
> >
> > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see= this is a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the c= ore protocol.
> >
> > --
> > Uma C.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: babel [mailto:bab= el-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson
> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM
> > To: Juliusz Chroboczek
> > Cc: babel@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mi= ckael's question
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> >
> >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the = Babel
> >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail.
> >>
> >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring lin= k
> >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit i= n the charter.=C2=A0 It is:
> >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estima= tor is
> >> what defines the metric.
> >
> > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area= (if I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it a= lso does link quality estimations and sets metrics.
> >
> > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be do= ne by this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not li= nk quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know).=
> >
> > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to everyb= ody, so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that Babel = does this as I was approximately a year ago.
> >
> > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functiona= lity explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, o= r make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel to actually wo= rk the way it was intended and described, it needs this functionality.
> >
> > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about th= is, it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not obv= ious what's going on.
> >
> > --
> > Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > babel mailing list
> > babel@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > babel mailing list
> > babel@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
>
>
>
>
> --
> We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards coul= d produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, w= e know that is not true.
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky




--
=
We=E2=80=99ve heard= that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete w= orks of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.=
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--001a11c3c2cc86b88e052fbcf12c-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 07:11:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A23E12D588 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eadlZwbLqikP for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x233.google.com (mail-qg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C8E112D56A for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id y89so11061421qge.2 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:10:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=hP8Resg4cGMoIY4zCl1hTPflBMk+ulzXf+jTkijHGvg=; b=pqiicvt4V9KjAWqwLjL1F2aUig5Cnq2bZyVR5/oWQCdMPwdEMY0DVoTb362He6s+Er LQhaiNd5E1M5ewl/jhjVGYddxN/0G7n8Wnr8dsKlc5MCXPYtB/9dWrM+mRIFLrctRGzV +S/KRl5Bp1IW8a3d+J9+mTN90vkXSHW3z3v665yNEDGIEY3Ec2SH0OmxLq5PL3h/71y3 zIcerZ8c+v35ee8vHGhulGmOYHu9NQKwI+rteai3iOheA9geQ3i+El8eLk7IDvtDhSfO iIYTZ33zbxC29JVONCbore5Ifl0mpxA3U8aFnfXonkLpLhxF/+Qe+bHOBOCWK26YM0z7 bzKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=hP8Resg4cGMoIY4zCl1hTPflBMk+ulzXf+jTkijHGvg=; b=LA6ggN26XejjnfC5r1wV5Iq5YfFMdaIAEqhF0aPUg3eXO3MFv1cp8uC4TLfCwHj/ut qgQU/6brDJj9OMrS7LyOYaTnsjTgmNGyO11DN0xzRuLQNHn+toWBJ5KeXrVkpKYg86Ub 6zR2XEOJPqjXMvwo+dRpfNga5YIUHqj8rJf17A8S61oz3ddaEeiiQVJCKGxGnJTxujlB MshDgQs0QQaZCrXlaGYx0LaKMBAJxCuKu12+PlrWZ8AJpL3BPgOyLzmYskuse7v00Zkz 7kDjzidarUEOq6bfA7/dGz1bpKz4YEMm/T+uQ6tFOlFMSfAGWSaKuDgYyQbucpbBJ8b6 2UrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJIPqLZWCdeDubea7Suf7/EuaEkES6rGSNchzfQ4eCDLCc1oTCx99RmIERgWpqgNg== X-Received: by 10.141.23.211 with SMTP id z202mr30627375qhd.52.1459865452727; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:160:21ea:3f32:67a8:a4bb? ([2001:67c:370:160:21ea:3f32:67a8:a4bb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z62sm14646873qka.26.2016.04.05.07.10.50 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_94556F6C-AF07-4234-ADA7-30AC77E21385"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 16:10:48 +0200 Message-Id: <808E629F-6C76-4984-B47E-367A8EDDE485@inf-net.nl> References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> To: Gabriel Kerneis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:10:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_94556F6C-AF07-4234-ADA7-30AC77E21385 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I'm using CORE ( http://www.nrl.navy.mil/itd/ncs/products/core ), = because it is simple to use and lightweight. It runs real code. RF links = can be simulated with add-on EMANE tool ( = http://www.nrl.navy.mil/itd/ncs/products/emane ), I don't use EMANE that = much. The negative feedback loop has to do with queuing & WME support in = kernel / wireless drivers or NIC. Hard to simulate. I had some fun playing around with MPTCP and SADR in a Homenet config. = In Praque, Henning hacked SADR in olsrd2. I'll enjoy myself with babeld = this IETF. Teco > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 14:55 heeft Gabriel Kerneis = het volgende geschreven: >=20 > Out of curiosity, what do people generally use to simulate wifi = (ad-hoc) links? >=20 > Gabriel >=20 > On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > Agreed. >=20 > I have my personal opinions on simulation. I prefer testing with real = stuff also. Sometimes, different outcomes. I'm still fighting negative = feedback with ETX on 802.11 links. >=20 > Teco >=20 >=20 > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 05:52 heeft Tony Przygienda = het volgende geschreven: > > > > all fine but don't forget the "interoperability". The spec + = normative references (if e.g. estimation is provided by another = normative reference) must specify all the values to be implemented (or = choices possible) that will guarantee interoperability out the box (i.e. = convergence) > > > > if you think that "babel doesn't care" and any value goes I suggest = extensive simulation over extensive range of values (mixed on different = routers) and see whether you get acceptable convergence behavior & = loop/blackhole free behavior. > > > > --- tony > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Teco Boot wrote: > > For having consistent behavior with zero-admin, mixed vendor = equipment, here has to be a parameter profile for link costs. We cannot = ask for example 802 + MOCA + PLC folks to come up with such. It is = Homenet WG or Babel WG that come up with a SHOULD BCP. MUST is not = needed, babel doesn't care.. > > > > RFC 6126 provides default values for timers. IMHO optimization is = needed. I expect packet delivery as soon as gig-ethernet LED is green. = Timers could be based on link capacity and number of neighbors when = medium is shared. Maybe size of topology. Maybe CPU speed, less an issue = these days. > > > > Teco > > > > > > > Op 5 apr. 2016, om 00:10 heeft Uma Chunduri = het volgende geschreven: > > > > > > AFAICT, Algorithms to configure link metrics should stay outside = of the routing protocols itself as this is an orthogonal functionality. > > > > > > May be for some deployments this is necessary but I don't see this = is a routing functionality and should be separated perhaps from the core = protocol. > > > > > > -- > > > Uma C. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael = Abrahamsson > > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 2:54 PM > > > To: Juliusz Chroboczek > > > Cc: babel@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to = Mickael's question > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > > > > >> There was a very good question by Mickael Abrahamsson at the = Babel > > >> BoF, which I'd like to reply to in detail. > > >> > > >> Babel is being advertised as suitable for autoconfiguring link > > >> metrics, and Mickael is concerned that this is not explicit in = the charter. It is: > > >> the Charter speaks about metrics, and the link quality estimator = is > > >> what defines the metric. > > > > > > My concern is that the working group will be part of routing area = (if I understand correctly), but in the current Babel implementation, it = also does link quality estimations and sets metrics. > > > > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be = done by this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and = not link quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't = know). > > > > > > I just want what is being decided to be perfectly clear to = everybody, so they don't have to be astonished when they discover that = Babel does this as I was approximately a year ago. > > > > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting = functionality explicitly in the charter as being something that would be = in-scope, or make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. For Babel = to actually work the way it was intended and described, it needs this = functionality. > > > > > > The work has to be done somewhere and people should know about = this, it should not be submerged under some other item where it's not = obvious what's going on. > > > > > > -- > > > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > babel mailing list > > > babel@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > > > > > > > -- > > We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards = could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the = Internet, we know that is not true. > > =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_94556F6C-AF07-4234-ADA7-30AC77E21385 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXA8doAAoJECQbXIDdIQWq63MQALiRLytpqgr3raGZ0UHMwqWG 0fGiTKO8Gppv75fqy4yqRFvMVXlnIvEQsqDrtZDqOZJnxyR8czRXW3B7c5McIxd3 W8i3bSSrWx32YGet3ABUXrRfRnuMBYrskovs3jVVIxc5harSkAz0Wnm0ACayyf/w eeas/nC/7fIBHCV7Li5bvttpdgt7i4Qe+Tsb6Xu/GBv6RnUZKLcsXf5o05Je+g2q fGKrkNsNSh+G6nC16/wtLTh6uU+LRSwqpMpVyvQr7c0rjW7U/q5x4QEsJ+o0xbVO fZ43uxMdx0GxH/9zNEiqGpFvW+k5gP3HSn0KOgqOvmGrykDgwnoR4MqBxcQQAkNJ ICZTT0Ic8bbEO7edHtWocWpEpADJ2cm8CxQ/S6FTTpPf8hGghYyFcA9YJ2sd7+v5 w2F1ESC82S93ofAmD01+JQh/IJHaRi+iXGEZGXan1myXuYLGYNbSlZl9DY59hy1Y NVDVtzQWsTzRI22kcWDW127vbG99Fe7Aks341lpaLGoOJtLgf31gvvXXnijnmSe+ 2h75Z661U0cLXutnspiaWxI+56y01ok87g64BcF3T3HiSuEOXKR/lZvfxMtozw1F r1YB44SpQgIVy+1GeqX/Rcw3nhxnrzzSwW0g6M5W4nsykQO1KapQuJ4ImXZh+jQg 3MNS+0MbzSzAKGjVP2YC =IDwm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_94556F6C-AF07-4234-ADA7-30AC77E21385-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 08:26:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D32412D586 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 08:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VN_OW5V7b36q for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 08:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.tohojo.dk (mail2.tohojo.dk [77.235.48.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D767F12D582 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 08:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail2.tohojo.dk DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=201310; t=1459869981; bh=cGPo36Ta7Xjo2CSKvZAZzR64VLa2BEUkG2MmC9JMSFU=; h=From:To:Subject:Date; b=DSvFVATbdbdbc1JfWSczJ/lsigh/kzzQXNDDGbSnTXWyOAQL3jQvuj2/vbjuw+Wmi eZzxSm51YNbn4CEi/z1ikrbCi34GcKjs2ghhE63IkXvhAJl02dsqlXaz2zeCBTOH+Z McnCy79nMD7W15Z/8JULXtIw3tI19qR9TFv/dCaQ= Sender: toke@toke.dk Received: by alrua-x1.borgediget.toke.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 285CA55443; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 12:26:18 -0300 (ART) From: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= To: babel@ietf.org Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:26:18 -0300 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft form X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 15:26:26 -0000 I took some time to write up my implementation experiences in draft form; basically it's mytalk from the BoF in text. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergensen-babel-implementation/ Joel mentioned the possibility of turning such a document into an informative RFC (as a future working group work item). Happy to have this serve as a starting point in such a case; but if nothing else I figured it might be useful for someone :) -Toke From nobody Tue Apr 5 10:22:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E58512D74E for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jy6TxEwevZqm for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3370712D0E7 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g185so27002849ioa.2 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=To1cYKGO0/yy/eavQCsr0w8QG5XgGLaUOCz5AtvPoss=; b=whRQNEryI8kPwERhc+ejB7QoW/PygWbcwbnyH9b/eRplZe3h7IKRgZHD4nrSuyRZcg LruMX7MTr/1pZUN1FznrMkiatNGbljC5eknJGm87+REKkvFQADgc2IxKY/n0IJnA4dlw hBiTJx3BvRYOBwxn11yPwzviIYZqRBcw7OO3rFPMlnZ81k2uv7Ie+CVy9SQsrQCfrSHQ CUeuTvPOHu+em7moahHUfIHEj2hBnEJMp0oXRF9UsJmZq9UiHgu2UHMDrj/T+0E04SvP IwNQY2hT6URwoNkXwI+mgVfppmskhgBmNlYzFq0eCZtX/Y1/n3iAMlQU05POVMxPJL8/ wUaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=To1cYKGO0/yy/eavQCsr0w8QG5XgGLaUOCz5AtvPoss=; b=BzvRTMFJHsLKzoJqteLaPVUhKI6duD/QpbcdDKn41NTf+JWuYqri2K6oO0AYIMHhiT HHVjqX+sjiDSKZ9WIpoqe9z53+27y6cS8ej1LyBbde8vllncLGJh2CphTFCSeO/U8rXW /AjUyJfMAEzmXldYbX1qAHppUqmaxK971gQ92rSX6XZGPEi7H58jA6E2Oa4sTMQrOfBy LxyM4hVZBsN8Q2axPJlZC+ixrzzOXaz7GNQXSz8ueCgBEjvLjDuCjR+MAfoDDfZ5rbz/ ESEySbsoKSa8OMdx3HdatxMC9KO0F1RrXIx2J7+YNC+NRDnNWIdStJbkodgWvWOICRMd UnVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLNEiz+DAJUvoim2Z+OSUqGxUE7wGOuF7rYYrEVlRfQV0CQNqhWX6BwJngjitnrk08xetTEE7LXF8fr+g== X-Received: by 10.107.165.78 with SMTP id o75mr20053723ioe.56.1459876953461; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.198.198 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:21:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> References: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:21:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vuc2Vu?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141f2623a1783052fc01785 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft form X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:22:36 -0000 --001a1141f2623a1783052fc01785 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable implementation experience drafts/rfcs are pretty common on routing protocols here. See e.g. 4167 AFAIR they used to be even required on PS last calls ;-) --- tony On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: > I took some time to write up my implementation experiences in draft > form; basically it's mytalk from the BoF in text. See > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergensen-babel-implemen= tation/ > > Joel mentioned the possibility of turning such a document into an > informative RFC (as a future working group work item). Happy to have > this serve as a starting point in such a case; but if nothing else I > figured it might be useful for someone :) > > -Toke > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a1141f2623a1783052fc01785 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
implementation experience drafts/rfcs are pretty common on= routing protocols here. See e.g. 4167=C2=A0

AFAIR they = used to be even required on PS last calls ;-)=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen= <to= ke@toke.dk> wrote:
I took s= ome time to write up my implementation experiences in draft
form; basically it's mytalk from the BoF in text. See
https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergensen-babel-implementation/

Joel mentioned the possibility of turning such a document into an
informative RFC (as a future working group work item). Happy to have
this serve as a starting point in such a case; but if nothing else I
figured it might be useful for someone :)

-Toke

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel



--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a mi= llion monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Sh= akespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--001a1141f2623a1783052fc01785-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 13:08:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7584612D824 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ysxKK9O8x3dD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A51212D814 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79fa6d0000057a9-8d-57041afc3d25 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D3.E7.22441.CFA14075; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:07:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB105.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.122]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 16:08:02 -0400 From: Uma Chunduri To: Tony Przygienda , Teco Boot Thread-Topic: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question Thread-Index: AQHRjrjmlGlok42Se02vhHF3QYosAZ96nqoA///AvQCAAEqqgIAAWMoAgADJXWA= Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:08:01 +0000 Message-ID: <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351629D74@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351625B5C@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351629D74eusaamb105erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuO5fKZZwg6+zGC22LOpmsfj86R+r xculW9ksrnzdwGSx+8FGFgdWj52z7rJ7LFnyk8lj//aVTB4Xd79j9Pg76SFTAGsUl01Kak5m WWqRvl0CV8aS563MBRcOMlb8uzWHtYHxwB7GLkYODgkBE4n9y7y7GDmBTDGJC/fWs3UxcnEI CRxllJj54xI7hLOMUeLi9p/sIFVsAnoSH6dC2CICbhJvr7SzghQxCzQxSvx9MwEsISwQLPHn 5WVmiKIQicaOa+wg20QE/CQ23bUHMVkEVCT2TnIAqeAV8JVY/fA3M8SujUwSh598ZgFJcAoE Ssy81ABmMwJd9/3UGiYQm1lAXOLWk/lMEFcLSCzZc54ZwhaVePn4HyuErSTx8fd8doj6fIlr b5cyQSwTlDg58wnLBEbRWUhGzUJSNgtJ2SygU5kFNCXW79KHKFGUmNL9kB3C1pBonTOXHVl8 ASP7KkaO0uKCnNx0I8NNjMCYPCbB5riDcW+v5yFGAQ5GJR5eBRnmcCHWxLLiytxDjBIczEoi vBoiLOFCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEeb0j/4UJCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGDeu jzgn2pbdI6yz8GrHyq79VU6Ms5i4j9m83TBXuMbZYTbXMtMPEXuW7jAJ37Dt/NxdZ/fLP9bg zniUt23FhuNXOJPE1q7JmaGYL177NWWrzO+ZnwNnhvxqnicX1vx3CbuMxvO4pl3Xg/ZFbCn5 /tPle7/iER/HypaM1U7B38/fXsbx99Gf1weVWIozEg21mIuKEwGwRtpdxQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , "babel@ietf.org" , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:08:05 -0000 --_000_1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351629D74eusaamb105erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWdyZWUgd2l0aCBUb255IG9uIHdoYXQgaGUgc2FpZCBiZWxvdy4NCg0KSnVzdCBhIHF1aWNrIHJl cGx5IGZvciB0aGUgc3Vic2VxdWVudCBtYWlsIGJlbG93Lg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgPkZv ciBoYXZpbmcgY29uc2lzdGVudCBiZWhhdmlvciB3aXRoIHplcm8tYWRtaW4sIG1peGVkIHZlbmRv ciBlcXVpcG1lbnQsIGhlcmUgaGFzIHRvDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgPmJlIGEgcGFyYW1ldGVyIHBy b2ZpbGUgZm9yIGxpbmsgY29zdHMuDQoNCltVbWFdOiBIZXJlIG9idmlvdXNseSB5b3UgYXJlIHRh bGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgYSByZXF1aXJlbWVudCB3aGVyZSB6ZXJvLWFkbWluIGlzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGZv ciBhIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgLg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgIEkgYW0gc3VyZSBjb3VwbGUgb2Ygb3RoZXIg cmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBsaW5rIHF1YWxpdHkgZXN0aW1hdGlvbiBldGMuIGFsc28gd291bGQg YmUgZG9jdW1lbnRlZCBpbg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgIHNvbWUgc29ydCBvZiByZXF1aXJlbWVudCBk b2N1bWVudCBvbmNlIFdHIGlzICAgZm9ybWVkLg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBoZWxw IGluIG11bHRpcGxlIGZyb250cyBvbiB3aHkgcHJvdG9jb2wgaXMgZG9pbmcgdGhlIHdheSBpdCBp cyBkb2luZyBjdXJyZW50bHkuDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICA+V2UgY2Fubm90IGFzayBmb3IgZXhh bXBsZSA4MDIgKyBNT0NBICsgUExDDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgPmZvbGtzIHRvIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0 aCBzdWNoLg0KDQpbVW1hXTogSSBzZWUgbXVsdGlwbGUgdXNlIGNhc2VzIGhlcmUuLiB3b3VsZCB0 aGVyZSBiZSBhbnkgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSB3LnIudCB0byByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgPz8NCg0KICAgICAg ICAgICAgICA+SXQgaXMgSG9tZW5ldCBXRyBvciBCYWJlbCBXRyB0aGF0IGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCBh IFNIT1VMRCBCQ1AuDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgPk1VU1QgaXMgbm90IG5lZWRlZCwgYmFiZWwgZG9l c24ndCBjYXJlLi4NCg0KW1VtYV06IFllcywgQmFiZWwgc2hvdWxkbuKAmXQgY2FyZSAuLiBhbmQg aGVuY2UgdGhpcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgc2VwYXJhdGUgZnJvbSBCYWJlbCBjb3JlIGRvY3VtZW50Lg0K DQotLQ0KVW1hIEMuDQoNCkZyb206IFRvbnkgUHJ6eWdpZW5kYSBbbWFpbHRvOnRvbnlzaWV0ZkBn bWFpbC5jb21dDQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEFwcmlsIDA0LCAyMDE2IDg6NTMgUE0NClRvOiBUZWNv IEJvb3QNCkNjOiBVbWEgQ2h1bmR1cmk7IEp1bGl1c3ogQ2hyb2JvY3plazsgYmFiZWxAaWV0Zi5v cmc7IE1pa2FlbCBBYnJhaGFtc3Nvbg0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtiYWJlbF0gQWJvdXQgbGluayBl c3RpbWF0aW9uIGluIEJhYmVsOiBhbnN3ZXIgdG8gTWlja2FlbCdzIHF1ZXN0aW9uDQoNCmFsbCBm aW5lIGJ1dCBkb24ndCBmb3JnZXQgdGhlICJpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5Ii4gVGhlIHNwZWMgKyBu b3JtYXRpdmUgcmVmZXJlbmNlcyAoaWYgZS5nLiBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIGlzIHByb3ZpZGVkIGJ5IGFu b3RoZXIgbm9ybWF0aXZlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSkgbXVzdCBzcGVjaWZ5IGFsbCB0aGUgdmFsdWVzIHRv IGJlIGltcGxlbWVudGVkIChvciBjaG9pY2VzIHBvc3NpYmxlKSB0aGF0IHdpbGwgZ3VhcmFudGVl IGludGVyb3BlcmFiaWxpdHkgb3V0IHRoZSBib3ggKGkuZS4gY29udmVyZ2VuY2UpDQoNCmlmIHlv dSB0aGluayB0aGF0ICJiYWJlbCBkb2Vzbid0IGNhcmUiIGFuZCBhbnkgdmFsdWUgZ29lcyBJIHN1 Z2dlc3QgZXh0ZW5zaXZlIHNpbXVsYXRpb24gb3ZlciBleHRlbnNpdmUgcmFuZ2Ugb2YgdmFsdWVz IChtaXhlZCBvbiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcm91dGVycykgYW5kIHNlZSB3aGV0aGVyIHlvdSBnZXQgYWNj ZXB0YWJsZSBjb252ZXJnZW5jZSBiZWhhdmlvciAmIGxvb3AvYmxhY2tob2xlIGZyZWUgYmVoYXZp b3IuDQoNCi0tLSB0b255DQoNCk9uIE1vbiwgQXByIDQsIDIwMTYgYXQgMzozNSBQTSwgVGVjbyBC b290IDx0ZWNvQGluZi1uZXQubmw8bWFpbHRvOnRlY29AaW5mLW5ldC5ubD4+IHdyb3RlOg0KRm9y IGhhdmluZyBjb25zaXN0ZW50IGJlaGF2aW9yIHdpdGggemVyby1hZG1pbiwgbWl4ZWQgdmVuZG9y IGVxdWlwbWVudCwgaGVyZSBoYXMgdG8gYmUgYSBwYXJhbWV0ZXIgcHJvZmlsZSBmb3IgbGluayBj b3N0cy4gV2UgY2Fubm90IGFzayBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSA4MDIgKyBNT0NBICsgUExDIGZvbGtzIHRv IGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCBzdWNoLiBJdCBpcyBIb21lbmV0IFdHIG9yIEJhYmVsIFdHIHRoYXQgY29t ZSB1cCB3aXRoIGEgU0hPVUxEIEJDUC4gTVVTVCBpcyBub3QgbmVlZGVkLCBiYWJlbCBkb2Vzbid0 IGNhcmUuLg0KDQpSRkMgNjEyNiBwcm92aWRlcyBkZWZhdWx0IHZhbHVlcyBmb3IgdGltZXJzLiBJ TUhPIG9wdGltaXphdGlvbiBpcyBuZWVkZWQuIEkgZXhwZWN0IHBhY2tldCBkZWxpdmVyeSBhcyBz b29uIGFzIGdpZy1ldGhlcm5ldCBMRUQgaXMgZ3JlZW4uIFRpbWVycyBjb3VsZCBiZSBiYXNlZCBv biBsaW5rIGNhcGFjaXR5IGFuZCBudW1iZXIgb2YgbmVpZ2hib3JzIHdoZW4gbWVkaXVtIGlzIHNo YXJlZC4gTWF5YmUgc2l6ZSBvZiB0b3BvbG9neS4gTWF5YmUgQ1BVIHNwZWVkLCBsZXNzIGFuIGlz c3VlIHRoZXNlIGRheXMuDQoNClRlY28NCg0KDQo+IE9wIDUgYXByLiAyMDE2LCBvbSAwMDoxMCBo ZWVmdCBVbWEgQ2h1bmR1cmkgPHVtYS5jaHVuZHVyaUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb208bWFpbHRvOnVtYS5j aHVuZHVyaUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20+PiBoZXQgdm9sZ2VuZGUgZ2VzY2hyZXZlbjoNCj4NCj4gQUZB SUNULCBBbGdvcml0aG1zIHRvIGNvbmZpZ3VyZSBsaW5rIG1ldHJpY3Mgc2hvdWxkIHN0YXkgb3V0 c2lkZSBvZiB0aGUgcm91dGluZyBwcm90b2NvbHMgaXRzZWxmIGFzIHRoaXMgaXMgYW4gb3J0aG9n b25hbCBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5Lg0KPg0KPiBNYXkgYmUgZm9yIHNvbWUgZGVwbG95bWVudHMgdGhp cyBpcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgYnV0IEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIHRoaXMgaXMgYSByb3V0aW5nIGZ1bmN0aW9u YWxpdHkgYW5kIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzZXBhcmF0ZWQgcGVyaGFwcyBmcm9tIHRoZSBjb3JlIHByb3Rv Y29sLg0KPg0KPiAtLQ0KPiBVbWEgQy4NCj4NCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0N Cj4gRnJvbTogYmFiZWwgW21haWx0bzpiYWJlbC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpiYWJl bC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPl0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1pa2FlbCBBYnJhaGFtc3Nvbg0KPiBT ZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEFwcmlsIDA0LCAyMDE2IDI6NTQgUE0NCj4gVG86IEp1bGl1c3ogQ2hyb2Jv Y3plaw0KPiBDYzogYmFiZWxAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBTdWJq ZWN0OiBSZTogW2JhYmVsXSBBYm91dCBsaW5rIGVzdGltYXRpb24gaW4gQmFiZWw6IGFuc3dlciB0 byBNaWNrYWVsJ3MgcXVlc3Rpb24NCj4NCj4gT24gTW9uLCA0IEFwciAyMDE2LCBKdWxpdXN6IENo cm9ib2N6ZWsgd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+PiBUaGVyZSB3YXMgYSB2ZXJ5IGdvb2QgcXVlc3Rpb24gYnkg TWlja2FlbCBBYnJhaGFtc3NvbiBhdCB0aGUgQmFiZWwNCj4+IEJvRiwgd2hpY2ggSSdkIGxpa2Ug dG8gcmVwbHkgdG8gaW4gZGV0YWlsLg0KPj4NCj4+IEJhYmVsIGlzIGJlaW5nIGFkdmVydGlzZWQg YXMgc3VpdGFibGUgZm9yIGF1dG9jb25maWd1cmluZyBsaW5rDQo+PiBtZXRyaWNzLCBhbmQgTWlj a2FlbCBpcyBjb25jZXJuZWQgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGlzIG5vdCBleHBsaWNpdCBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRl ci4gIEl0IGlzOg0KPj4gdGhlIENoYXJ0ZXIgc3BlYWtzIGFib3V0IG1ldHJpY3MsIGFuZCB0aGUg bGluayBxdWFsaXR5IGVzdGltYXRvciBpcw0KPj4gd2hhdCBkZWZpbmVzIHRoZSBtZXRyaWMuDQo+ DQo+IE15IGNvbmNlcm4gaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCB3aWxsIGJlIHBhcnQgb2Yg cm91dGluZyBhcmVhIChpZiBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgY29ycmVjdGx5KSwgYnV0IGluIHRoZSBjdXJy ZW50IEJhYmVsIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLCBpdCBhbHNvIGRvZXMgbGluayBxdWFsaXR5IGVzdGlt YXRpb25zIGFuZCBzZXRzIG1ldHJpY3MuDQo+DQo+IFNvIGluIElFVEYgdGVybXMsIHNob3VsZCB0 aGlzIGxpbmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIHN0aWxsIGJlIGRvbmUgYnkgdGhpcyB3b3JraW5n IGdyb3VwIHdoaWNoIHdpbGwgbW9zdGx5IGhhdmUgcm91dGluZyBza2lsbHNldCBhbmQgbm90IGxp bmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIHNraWxsc2V0ICh3aG9ldmVyIG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgdGhhdCwg SSBkb24ndCBrbm93KS4NCj4NCj4gSSBqdXN0IHdhbnQgd2hhdCBpcyBiZWluZyBkZWNpZGVkIHRv IGJlIHBlcmZlY3RseSBjbGVhciB0byBldmVyeWJvZHksIHNvIHRoZXkgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0byBi ZSBhc3RvbmlzaGVkIHdoZW4gdGhleSBkaXNjb3ZlciB0aGF0IEJhYmVsIGRvZXMgdGhpcyBhcyBJ IHdhcyBhcHByb3hpbWF0ZWx5IGEgeWVhciBhZ28uDQo+DQo+IFNvIGVpdGhlciBwdXQgdGhlIGxp bmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0b3IvbWV0cmljIHNldHRpbmcgZnVuY3Rpb25hbGl0eSBleHBsaWNp dGx5IGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIGFzIGJlaW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGluLXNj b3BlLCBvciBtYWtlIGl0IG91dCBvZiBzY29wZSBhbmQgbW92ZSBpdCBzb21ld2hlcmUgZWxzZS4g Rm9yIEJhYmVsIHRvIGFjdHVhbGx5IHdvcmsgdGhlIHdheSBpdCB3YXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgYW5kIGRl c2NyaWJlZCwgaXQgbmVlZHMgdGhpcyBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5Lg0KPg0KPiBUaGUgd29yayBoYXMg dG8gYmUgZG9uZSBzb21ld2hlcmUgYW5kIHBlb3BsZSBzaG91bGQga25vdyBhYm91dCB0aGlzLCBp dCBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIHN1Ym1lcmdlZCB1bmRlciBzb21lIG90aGVyIGl0ZW0gd2hlcmUgaXQn cyBub3Qgb2J2aW91cyB3aGF0J3MgZ29pbmcgb24uDQo+DQo+IC0tDQo+IE1pa2FlbCBBYnJhaGFt c3NvbiAgICBlbWFpbDogc3dtaWtlQHN3bS5wcC5zZTxtYWlsdG86c3dtaWtlQHN3bS5wcC5zZT4N Cj4NCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4g YmFiZWwgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IGJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpiYWJlbEBpZXRmLm9y Zz4NCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iYWJlbA0KPg0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBiYWJlbCBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gYmFiZWxAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JhYmVsDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpiYWJlbCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN CmJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpiYWJlbEBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmFiZWwNCg0KDQoNCi0tDQpXZeKAmXZlIGhlYXJkIHRoYXQg YSBtaWxsaW9uIG1vbmtleXMgYXQgYSBtaWxsaW9uIGtleWJvYXJkcyBjb3VsZCBwcm9kdWNlIHRo ZSBjb21wbGV0ZSB3b3JrcyBvZiBTaGFrZXNwZWFyZTsgbm93LCB0aGFua3MgdG8gdGhlIEludGVy bmV0LCB3ZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHRydWUuDQrigJRSb2JlcnQgV2lsZW5za3kNCg== --_000_1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351629D74eusaamb105erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTQgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJ e2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OlRhaG9tYTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDExIDYgNCAzIDUgNCA0IDIgNDt9DQpA Zm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5Okdlb3JnaWE7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMiA1IDQg NSAyIDMgMzt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWwsIGxpLk1zb05v cm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206LjAwMDFw dDsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJUaW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iLCJz ZXJpZiI7fQ0KYTpsaW5rLCBzcGFuLk1zb0h5cGVybGluaw0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6 OTk7DQoJY29sb3I6Ymx1ZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCmE6dmlzaXRl ZCwgc3Bhbi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmtGb2xsb3dlZA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJ Y29sb3I6cHVycGxlOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5ob2VuemIN Cgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLW5hbWU6aG9lbnpiO30NCnNwYW4uRW1haWxTdHlsZTE4DQoJe21zby1zdHls ZS10eXBlOnBlcnNvbmFsLXJlcGx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIiwic2Fucy1zZXJp ZiI7DQoJY29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpl eHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYiO30NCkBwYWdl IFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4waW4g MS4waW4gMS4waW47fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9DQot LT48L3N0eWxlPjwhLS1baWYgZ3RlIG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0KPG86c2hhcGVkZWZhdWx0cyB2OmV4 dD0iZWRpdCIgc3BpZG1heD0iMTAyNiIgLz4NCjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPjwhLS1baWYgZ3Rl IG1zbyA5XT48eG1sPg0KPG86c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiPg0KPG86aWRtYXAgdjpl eHQ9ImVkaXQiIGRhdGE9IjEiIC8+DQo8L286c2hhcGVsYXlvdXQ+PC94bWw+PCFbZW5kaWZdLS0+ DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iYmx1ZSIgdmxpbms9InB1cnBsZSI+ DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4g c3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90Oywm cXVvdDtzYW5zLXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPkFncmVlIHdpdGggVG9ueSBvbiB3 aGF0IGhlIHNhaWQgYmVsb3cuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05v cm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2Fs aWJyaSZxdW90OywmcXVvdDtzYW5zLXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+Jm5i c3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJm b250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssJnF1b3Q7c2Fu cy1zZXJpZiZxdW90Oztjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5KdXN0IGEgcXVpY2sgcmVwbHkgZm9yIHRoZSBz dWJzZXF1ZW50IG1haWwgYmVsb3cuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7 Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OywmcXVvdDtzYW5zLXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+ Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssJnF1b3Q7 c2Fucy1zZXJpZiZxdW90Oztjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsgJmd0Ozwvc3Bhbj5Gb3IgaGF2aW5nIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgYmVoYXZpb3Igd2l0aCB6 ZXJvLWFkbWluLCBtaXhlZCB2ZW5kb3IgZXF1aXBtZW50LCBoZXJlIGhhcyB0bw0KPG86cD48L286 cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmZ3Q7YmUg YSBwYXJhbWV0ZXIgcHJvZmlsZSBmb3IgbGluayBjb3N0cy4gPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3Jt YWwiPltVbWFdOiBIZXJlIG9idmlvdXNseSB5b3UgYXJlIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgYSByZXF1aXJl bWVudCB3aGVyZSB6ZXJvLWFkbWluIGlzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGZvciBhIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgLjxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IEkgYW0gc3Vy ZSBjb3VwbGUgb2Ygb3RoZXIgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBsaW5rIHF1YWxpdHkgZXN0aW1hdGlv biBldGMuIGFsc28gd291bGQgYmUgZG9jdW1lbnRlZCBpbg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtzb21lIHNvcnQgb2YgcmVxdWly ZW1lbnQgZG9jdW1lbnQgb25jZSBXRyBpcyAmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtmb3JtZWQuPG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBoZWxwIGluIG11 bHRpcGxlIGZyb250cyBvbiB3aHkgcHJvdG9jb2wgaXMgZG9pbmcgdGhlIHdheSBpdCBpcyBkb2lu ZyBjdXJyZW50bHkuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmZ3Q7V2UgY2Fubm90IGFzayBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSA4MDIgJiM0MzsgTU9D QSAmIzQzOyBQTEMgPG86cD4NCjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPiZuYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZu YnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZndDtmb2xrcyB0byBjb21lIHVwIHdpdGggc3VjaC4gPG86cD48L286 cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPltVbWFdOiBJIHNlZSBtdWx0aXBsZSB1c2UgY2FzZXMgaGVyZS4uIHdv dWxkIHRoZXJlIGJlIGFueSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIHcuci50IHRvIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyA/Pw0KPG86 cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyAmZ3Q7SXQgaXMgSG9t ZW5ldCBXRyBvciBCYWJlbCBXRyB0aGF0IGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCBhIFNIT1VMRCBCQ1AuICZuYnNw OzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5i c3A7Jmd0O01VU1QgaXMgbm90IG5lZWRlZCwgYmFiZWwgZG9lc24ndCBjYXJlLi48bzpwPjwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xh c3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+W1VtYV06IFllcywgQmFiZWwgc2hvdWxkbuKAmXQgY2FyZSAuLiBhbmQg aGVuY2UgdGhpcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgc2VwYXJhdGUgZnJvbSBCYWJlbCBjb3JlIGRvY3VtZW50Ljxz cGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVv dDssJnF1b3Q7c2Fucy1zZXJpZiZxdW90Oztjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bh bj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBw dDtmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtDYWxpYnJpJnF1b3Q7LCZxdW90O3NhbnMtc2VyaWYmcXVvdDs7 Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7 Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OywmcXVvdDtzYW5zLXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPi0tPG86 cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZv bnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q2FsaWJyaSZxdW90OywmcXVvdDtzYW5z LXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPlVtYSBDLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQt ZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssJnF1b3Q7c2Fucy1zZXJpZiZxdW90Oztjb2xvcjoj MUY0OTdEIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij48Yj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtUYWhv bWEmcXVvdDssJnF1b3Q7c2Fucy1zZXJpZiZxdW90OyI+RnJvbTo8L3NwYW4+PC9iPjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O1RhaG9tYSZxdW90OywmcXVv dDtzYW5zLXNlcmlmJnF1b3Q7Ij4gVG9ueSBQcnp5Z2llbmRhIFttYWlsdG86dG9ueXNpZXRmQGdt YWlsLmNvbV0NCjxicj4NCjxiPlNlbnQ6PC9iPiBNb25kYXksIEFwcmlsIDA0LCAyMDE2IDg6NTMg UE08YnI+DQo8Yj5Ubzo8L2I+IFRlY28gQm9vdDxicj4NCjxiPkNjOjwvYj4gVW1hIENodW5kdXJp OyBKdWxpdXN6IENocm9ib2N6ZWs7IGJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnOyBNaWthZWwgQWJyYWhhbXNzb248 YnI+DQo8Yj5TdWJqZWN0OjwvYj4gUmU6IFtiYWJlbF0gQWJvdXQgbGluayBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIGlu IEJhYmVsOiBhbnN3ZXIgdG8gTWlja2FlbCdzIHF1ZXN0aW9uPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9w Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+YWxsIGZpbmUgYnV0IGRvbid0IGZvcmdldCB0aGUgJnF1b3Q7aW50 ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSZxdW90Oy4gVGhlIHNwZWMgJiM0Mzsgbm9ybWF0aXZlIHJlZmVyZW5jZXMg KGlmIGUuZy4gZXN0aW1hdGlvbiBpcyBwcm92aWRlZCBieSBhbm90aGVyIG5vcm1hdGl2ZSByZWZl cmVuY2UpIG11c3Qgc3BlY2lmeSBhbGwgdGhlIHZhbHVlcyB0byBiZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCAob3Ig Y2hvaWNlcyBwb3NzaWJsZSkgdGhhdCB3aWxsIGd1YXJhbnRlZSBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5DQog b3V0IHRoZSBib3ggKGkuZS4gY29udmVyZ2VuY2UpJm5ic3A7PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2 Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxk aXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5pZiB5b3UgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCAmcXVvdDtiYWJlbCBk b2Vzbid0IGNhcmUmcXVvdDsgYW5kIGFueSB2YWx1ZSBnb2VzIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCBleHRlbnNpdmUg c2ltdWxhdGlvbiBvdmVyIGV4dGVuc2l2ZSByYW5nZSBvZiB2YWx1ZXMgKG1peGVkIG9uIGRpZmZl cmVudCByb3V0ZXJzKSBhbmQgc2VlIHdoZXRoZXIgeW91IGdldCBhY2NlcHRhYmxlIGNvbnZlcmdl bmNlIGJlaGF2aW9yICZhbXA7IGxvb3AvYmxhY2tob2xlIGZyZWUgYmVoYXZpb3IuJm5ic3A7PG86 cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZu YnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPi0tLSB0 b255Jm5ic3A7PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29O b3JtYWwiPk9uIE1vbiwgQXByIDQsIDIwMTYgYXQgMzozNSBQTSwgVGVjbyBCb290ICZsdDs8YSBo cmVmPSJtYWlsdG86dGVjb0BpbmYtbmV0Lm5sIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+dGVjb0BpbmYtbmV0 Lm5sPC9hPiZndDsgd3JvdGU6PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5G b3IgaGF2aW5nIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgYmVoYXZpb3Igd2l0aCB6ZXJvLWFkbWluLCBtaXhlZCB2ZW5k b3IgZXF1aXBtZW50LCBoZXJlIGhhcyB0byBiZSBhIHBhcmFtZXRlciBwcm9maWxlIGZvciBsaW5r IGNvc3RzLiBXZSBjYW5ub3QgYXNrIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIDgwMiAmIzQzOyBNT0NBICYjNDM7IFBM QyBmb2xrcyB0byBjb21lIHVwIHdpdGggc3VjaC4gSXQgaXMgSG9tZW5ldCBXRyBvciBCYWJlbCBX RyB0aGF0IGNvbWUgdXANCiB3aXRoIGEgU0hPVUxEIEJDUC4gTVVTVCBpcyBub3QgbmVlZGVkLCBi YWJlbCBkb2Vzbid0IGNhcmUuLjxicj4NCjxicj4NClJGQyA2MTI2IHByb3ZpZGVzIGRlZmF1bHQg dmFsdWVzIGZvciB0aW1lcnMuIElNSE8gb3B0aW1pemF0aW9uIGlzIG5lZWRlZC4gSSBleHBlY3Qg cGFja2V0IGRlbGl2ZXJ5IGFzIHNvb24gYXMgZ2lnLWV0aGVybmV0IExFRCBpcyBncmVlbi4gVGlt ZXJzIGNvdWxkIGJlIGJhc2VkIG9uIGxpbmsgY2FwYWNpdHkgYW5kIG51bWJlciBvZiBuZWlnaGJv cnMgd2hlbiBtZWRpdW0gaXMgc2hhcmVkLiBNYXliZSBzaXplIG9mIHRvcG9sb2d5LiBNYXliZSBD UFUNCiBzcGVlZCwgbGVzcyBhbiBpc3N1ZSB0aGVzZSBkYXlzLjxicj4NCjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJj b2xvcjojODg4ODg4Ij48YnI+DQo8c3BhbiBjbGFzcz0iaG9lbnpiIj5UZWNvPC9zcGFuPjwvc3Bh bj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCIgc3R5 bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206MTIuMHB0Ij48YnI+DQo8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IE9wIDUgYXByLiAyMDE2 LCBvbSAwMDoxMCBoZWVmdCBVbWEgQ2h1bmR1cmkgJmx0OzxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzp1bWEuY2h1 bmR1cmlAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tIj51bWEuY2h1bmR1cmlAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPC9hPiZndDsgaGV0 IHZvbGdlbmRlIGdlc2NocmV2ZW46PGJyPg0KJmd0Ozxicj4NCiZndDsgQUZBSUNULCBBbGdvcml0 aG1zIHRvIGNvbmZpZ3VyZSBsaW5rIG1ldHJpY3Mgc2hvdWxkIHN0YXkgb3V0c2lkZSBvZiB0aGUg cm91dGluZyBwcm90b2NvbHMgaXRzZWxmIGFzIHRoaXMgaXMgYW4gb3J0aG9nb25hbCBmdW5jdGlv bmFsaXR5Ljxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IE1heSBiZSBmb3Igc29tZSBkZXBsb3ltZW50cyB0 aGlzIGlzIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBidXQgSSBkb24ndCBzZWUgdGhpcyBpcyBhIHJvdXRpbmcgZnVuY3Rp b25hbGl0eSBhbmQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHNlcGFyYXRlZCBwZXJoYXBzIGZyb20gdGhlIGNvcmUgcHJv dG9jb2wuPGJyPg0KJmd0Ozxicj4NCiZndDsgLS08YnI+DQomZ3Q7IFVtYSBDLjxicj4NCiZndDs8 YnI+DQomZ3Q7IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBGcm9tOiBiYWJl bCBbbWFpbHRvOjxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpiYWJlbC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIj5iYWJlbC1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPC9hPl0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1pa2FlbCBBYnJhaGFtc3Nvbjxicj4N CiZndDsgU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAwNCwgMjAxNiAyOjU0IFBNPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBUbzog SnVsaXVzeiBDaHJvYm9jemVrPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBDYzogPGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOmJhYmVsQGll dGYub3JnIj5iYWJlbEBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQomZ3Q7IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbYmFiZWxd IEFib3V0IGxpbmsgZXN0aW1hdGlvbiBpbiBCYWJlbDogYW5zd2VyIHRvIE1pY2thZWwncyBxdWVz dGlvbjxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IE9uIE1vbiwgNCBBcHIgMjAxNiwgSnVsaXVzeiBDaHJv Ym9jemVrIHdyb3RlOjxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyBUaGVyZSB3YXMgYSB2ZXJ5IGdv b2QgcXVlc3Rpb24gYnkgTWlja2FlbCBBYnJhaGFtc3NvbiBhdCB0aGUgQmFiZWw8YnI+DQomZ3Q7 Jmd0OyBCb0YsIHdoaWNoIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIHJlcGx5IHRvIGluIGRldGFpbC48YnI+DQomZ3Q7 Jmd0Ozxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7IEJhYmVsIGlzIGJlaW5nIGFkdmVydGlzZWQgYXMgc3VpdGFibGUg Zm9yIGF1dG9jb25maWd1cmluZyBsaW5rPGJyPg0KJmd0OyZndDsgbWV0cmljcywgYW5kIE1pY2th ZWwgaXMgY29uY2VybmVkIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBpcyBub3QgZXhwbGljaXQgaW4gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIu Jm5ic3A7IEl0IGlzOjxicj4NCiZndDsmZ3Q7IHRoZSBDaGFydGVyIHNwZWFrcyBhYm91dCBtZXRy aWNzLCBhbmQgdGhlIGxpbmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0b3IgaXM8YnI+DQomZ3Q7Jmd0OyB3aGF0 IGRlZmluZXMgdGhlIG1ldHJpYy48YnI+DQomZ3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0OyBNeSBjb25jZXJuIGlzIHRo YXQgdGhlIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgd2lsbCBiZSBwYXJ0IG9mIHJvdXRpbmcgYXJlYSAoaWYgSSB1 bmRlcnN0YW5kIGNvcnJlY3RseSksIGJ1dCBpbiB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBCYWJlbCBpbXBsZW1lbnRh dGlvbiwgaXQgYWxzbyBkb2VzIGxpbmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0aW9ucyBhbmQgc2V0cyBtZXRy aWNzLjxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IFNvIGluIElFVEYgdGVybXMsIHNob3VsZCB0aGlzIGxp bmsgcXVhbGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIHN0aWxsIGJlIGRvbmUgYnkgdGhpcyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3Vw IHdoaWNoIHdpbGwgbW9zdGx5IGhhdmUgcm91dGluZyBza2lsbHNldCBhbmQgbm90IGxpbmsgcXVh bGl0eSBlc3RpbWF0aW9uIHNraWxsc2V0ICh3aG9ldmVyIG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgdGhhdCwgSSBkb24n dCBrbm93KS48YnI+DQomZ3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0OyBJIGp1c3Qgd2FudCB3aGF0IGlzIGJlaW5nIGRl Y2lkZWQgdG8gYmUgcGVyZmVjdGx5IGNsZWFyIHRvIGV2ZXJ5Ym9keSwgc28gdGhleSBkb24ndCBo YXZlIHRvIGJlIGFzdG9uaXNoZWQgd2hlbiB0aGV5IGRpc2NvdmVyIHRoYXQgQmFiZWwgZG9lcyB0 aGlzIGFzIEkgd2FzIGFwcHJveGltYXRlbHkgYSB5ZWFyIGFnby48YnI+DQomZ3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0 OyBTbyBlaXRoZXIgcHV0IHRoZSBsaW5rIHF1YWxpdHkgZXN0aW1hdG9yL21ldHJpYyBzZXR0aW5n IGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgZXhwbGljaXRseSBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciBhcyBiZWluZyBzb21ldGhp bmcgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbi1zY29wZSwgb3IgbWFrZSBpdCBvdXQgb2Ygc2NvcGUgYW5kIG1v dmUgaXQgc29tZXdoZXJlIGVsc2UuIEZvciBCYWJlbCB0byBhY3R1YWxseSB3b3JrIHRoZSB3YXkg aXQgd2FzIGludGVuZGVkIGFuZCBkZXNjcmliZWQsDQogaXQgbmVlZHMgdGhpcyBmdW5jdGlvbmFs aXR5Ljxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IFRoZSB3b3JrIGhhcyB0byBiZSBkb25lIHNvbWV3aGVy ZSBhbmQgcGVvcGxlIHNob3VsZCBrbm93IGFib3V0IHRoaXMsIGl0IHNob3VsZCBub3QgYmUgc3Vi bWVyZ2VkIHVuZGVyIHNvbWUgb3RoZXIgaXRlbSB3aGVyZSBpdCdzIG5vdCBvYnZpb3VzIHdoYXQn cyBnb2luZyBvbi48YnI+DQomZ3Q7PGJyPg0KJmd0OyAtLTxicj4NCiZndDsgTWlrYWVsIEFicmFo YW1zc29uJm5ic3A7ICZuYnNwOyBlbWFpbDogPGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOnN3bWlrZUBzd20ucHAu c2UiPnN3bWlrZUBzd20ucHAuc2U8L2E+PGJyPg0KJmd0Ozxicj4NCiZndDsgX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX188YnI+DQomZ3Q7IGJhYmVsIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdDxicj4NCiZndDsgPGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOmJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnIj5iYWJlbEBp ZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQomZ3Q7IDxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmFiZWwiIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JhYmVsPC9hPjxicj4NCiZndDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IF9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPGJyPg0KJmd0OyBiYWJlbCBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3Q8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IDxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpiYWJlbEBpZXRmLm9yZyI+YmFiZWxA aWV0Zi5vcmc8L2E+PGJyPg0KJmd0OyA8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JhYmVsIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iYWJlbDwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbToxMi4wcHQiPjxicj4N Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPGJyPg0KYmFi ZWwgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0PGJyPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOmJhYmVsQGlldGYub3JnIj5iYWJl bEBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQo8YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2JhYmVsIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iYWJlbDwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PGJyPg0KPGJyIGNsZWFyPSJhbGwiPg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2 Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPi0tIDxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2 Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PGk+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTo5LjVwdDtm b250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtHZW9yZ2lhJnF1b3Q7LCZxdW90O3NlcmlmJnF1b3Q7Ij5XZeKAmXZl IGhlYXJkIHRoYXQgYSBtaWxsaW9uIG1vbmtleXMgYXQgYSBtaWxsaW9uIGtleWJvYXJkcyBjb3Vs ZCBwcm9kdWNlIHRoZSBjb21wbGV0ZSB3b3JrcyBvZiBTaGFrZXNwZWFyZTsgbm93LCB0aGFua3Mg dG8gdGhlIEludGVybmV0LCB3ZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHRydWUuPC9zcGFuPjwvaT48bzpw PjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6OS41cHQiPuKAlFJvYmVydCBXaWxlbnNreTwvc3Bhbj48bzpwPjwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8 L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_1B502206DFA0C544B7A604691520086351629D74eusaamb105erics_-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 14:32:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B89812D8BD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NXJyUKVbaR8d for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F41C112D635 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u35LWfV3008265; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:32:41 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1164961F9A; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id jgBXSqovzRwY; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (dhcp-a14e.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.161.78]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 826C161FA7; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 18:32:36 -0300 Message-ID: <87egaj213f.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Mikael Abrahamsson In-Reply-To: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 05 Apr 2016 23:32:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57042EF9.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57042EF9.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57042EF9.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 21:32:46 -0000 > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). [...] > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. Uh-huh. But I'm not sure it belongs in the charter -- shouldn't that be decided by the WG rather than the people drafting the charter? From nobody Tue Apr 5 17:39:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB8512D5CA for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:39:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_zvfeIqosQw for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 702B312D181 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id p188so38767672oih.2 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:39:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=3AnXKjHKD2woK9IwSL0tboiFwagMBC1GXazsnsC2uds=; b=tc0t3wiXjsx7RU5G7wrztMhlJzqtP2SnUWa7P5zqQGpwV4s+Khx3A08WZTqo8jSJng 6IIF4xq4+I1mgPYJJSWzmQQJFLMBFp+8BvI+ypEj66CMhmDe7Ld0PQ6DoZuU/DnjjzAy QpDjPu1W2Ncc8tn46hLACBWyoeiMFgfw6Ut0UxoJCbApw1HA1vzdoZlPzyZlRS3AoE1a ybhe3YUqC9YAIws8JnkcDNNsb4KOeB4yII7rxga0Btr6XYBJUkT98Gpfa4pnQtJDwUHU kFM7eygs9L1OOOYi2P5sNOCDFzDDaeDYwpznKYTMHJN8aAnVYpswEa2OAzI8rsAgalz2 j2bA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=3AnXKjHKD2woK9IwSL0tboiFwagMBC1GXazsnsC2uds=; b=APSX4Yrwl03wuqlViUPFjXIBM09CjWrzwrCHFYDo+A1GSKDJui+CJcZEzCqDB81ALW HxNBZOe57MMYlqoHMfr8ryB6Sh8MosYZ4ccqOrChVEQmP19pgwrT1WlnME2t6ZMPWeq3 A0iM0xaC5SA5gqHxSP54iXLKvayZT0aVuit9wGJ3kAUo8F28uW+Qqsd6t2F7pFGIAi7R 0WBZkf+lYW9fy29KJsYP8GRxLYaFP4dc7tCy+gpnedftZldLDZLU+KRJUkp5Dim1Kqfn k/efaoZgaYf/MSNc1Dv5HNfjBLd1nT2XXdsUSUkX3cIaK27gYvmnkKSucTVbrhPI3e50 VCUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJqAAKzr9PCZ8jR3TipmujgrjXg4pO1OT1QIG1nHojMIYRtaj/CE/JdpeYg1jU6JYcnSeDpAlb/6KfaUA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.81.216 with SMTP id f207mr11779195oib.99.1459903146726; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:39:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87egaj213f.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87egaj213f.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 20:39:06 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113adcce779c58052fc630d0 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF , Mikael Abrahamsson Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 00:39:09 -0000 --001a113adcce779c58052fc630d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Apr 5, 2016 7:30 PM, "Juliusz Chroboczek" wrote: > > > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be done by > > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and not link > > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't know). > > [...] > > > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functionality > > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-scope, or > > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else. > > Uh-huh. > > But I'm not sure it belongs in the charter -- shouldn't that be decided by > the WG rather than the people drafting the charter? The WG does the work the charter specifies. It's a negotiation process between the AD, proponents, and future WG chairs. The link metric work should be called out separately and done so it can also be reused by other protocols, depending on stability requirements. Alia _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --001a113adcce779c58052fc630d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Apr 5, 2016 7:30 PM, "Juliusz Chroboczek" <jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrot= e:
>
> > So in IETF terms, should this link quality estimation still be do= ne by
> > this working group which will mostly have routing skillset and no= t link
> > quality estimation skillset (whoever might have that, I don't= know).
>
> [...]
>
> > So either put the link quality estimator/metric setting functiona= lity
> > explicitly in the charter as being something that would be in-sco= pe, or
> > make it out of scope and move it somewhere else.
>
> Uh-huh.
>
> But I'm not sure it belongs in the charter -- shouldn't that b= e decided by
> the WG rather than the people drafting the charter?

The WG does the work the charter specifies.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It&#= 39;s a negotiation process between the AD, proponents, and future WG chairs= .

The link metric work should be called out separately and don= e so it can also be reused by other protocols,=C2=A0 depending on stability= requirements.

Alia _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

--001a113adcce779c58052fc630d0-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 19:20:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2667B12D185 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:20:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AQp-dqiw5xx for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A771912D09A for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 19:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u362Kou5027293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Apr 2016 04:20:50 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u362Knue024418; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 04:20:49 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB98F61F9A; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 04:20:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id yNXLkEPoLNV6; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 04:20:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [201.216.218.45]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B125F61FA5; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 04:20:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 23:20:42 -0300 Message-ID: <8737qz1nr9.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Alia Atlas In-Reply-To: References: <87a8l9t676.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87egaj213f.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 06 Apr 2016 04:20:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 06 Apr 2016 04:20:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57047282.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57047281.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57047282.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57047281.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57047282.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57047281.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF , Mikael Abrahamsson Subject: Re: [babel] About link estimation in Babel: answer to Mickael's question X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 02:20:55 -0000 >> But I'm not sure it belongs in the charter -- shouldn't that be decided >> by the WG rather than the people drafting the charter? > The WG does the work the charter specifies. It's a negotiation process > between the AD, proponents, and future WG chairs. Clear. > The link metric work should be called out separately and done so it can > also be reused by other protocols, depending on stability requirements. So a Babel WG would only specify what properties a metric MUST have for it to be suitable to be used by Babel? -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Apr 6 11:25:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0225212D770 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SAIFbsu2fvmS for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87A0A12D0E7 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u36IOtCw010081; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:24:55 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-b176.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.177.118]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u36IOp02010030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:24:53 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Tony Przygienda'" , "=?utf-8?Q?'Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen'?=" References: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:24:49 +0100 Message-ID: <08d501d19031$9cbb4190$d631c4b0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08D6_01D19039.FE81A560" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJQBUIMJJisLtP14F0bDpafzrN4qwI9YYjhnm5tZVA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22244.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.849-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.849-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: YBNypeo131A7iuZ/mdYYtgzvg1/q1MH2hGnS5XpjHWML3wpElrVUGDKM rJ+pwb+d+dVjQNaxOrcI8o+oRtTdk8nlJe2gk8vI9YBezwhBfW6+6n93domHeHCTBUMuwo2IFyA evvDKNlCVhIWL9FEuN8dDwwczffCu9pLnYtQ99xK638ZUY6gSd2Iwlch+Zqv5opA4PuwqpcYZaN NE3MpWy6NvJJBiq11aHcQQBuf4ZFuSeMExjuIoEszvOkSymob/82+ZJoKeNOXhHqIZ45Yytnnjo YJlRs+LR1vveBQPCRfBtFDYGmaWKrRfRjDbtW6i5DjmdW0+qbGuwVTxTDkELrK2YHb/kidP/PEg L0tqyq50bnu2kHqixLMsPmSZxbpkE7JInT4wddoTjfkO3pb+WD0msIgSyun3H/Z71HJDNaFacyh B9L1arxJ3qw6ad/ljABhihvAhvAJIeNYTP8OmTPk3SjZMcZFkUlBh+kbitM8/DUc/B6QpkmRGSn UqeCO9OQRl+99vaMkMH4SsGvRsA1qvZZ9/gpIhZ5yuplze9ps57kFjOTI5JYBMc1fifV0YEE7dr Cx1oTkh3ud9DyO68BIMDPFEv6Uxs+SyIdviDnwL/50zj0KL7BY+7509sPX7ZLNHiJlyaWEtY3sm clWYCYIiDu0n/+6x2MMmxTWvrZv8Xh935PYSDpd9j+WYn72G89EK+xictMuW00p9LWWxDyhiPa9 5Af6oXSJ4c3nT+QeWLCkl1lq7B9VYleRFiu07myiLZetSf8mVHVxP1hp9BUpZ1N/CwmPLA9vnXq 1h8XUBeUDiwr7BuxWNFMkC/9Wf7aD0l83PrltOp3DRj0EIckcVxrtoAp10 Archived-At: Cc: 'Babel at IETF' Subject: Re: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft form X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 18:25:06 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08D6_01D19039.FE81A560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please see RFC 6982 for another view. This may depend on the amount of information you are trying to = distribute. Adrian =20 From: babel [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Przygienda Sent: 05 April 2016 18:22 To: Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft form =20 implementation experience drafts/rfcs are pretty common on routing = protocols here. See e.g. 4167=20 =20 AFAIR they used to be even required on PS last calls ;-)=20 =20 --- tony=20 =20 On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen = wrote: I took some time to write up my implementation experiences in draft form; basically it's mytalk from the BoF in text. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergensen-babel-implemen= tation/ Joel mentioned the possibility of turning such a document into an informative RFC (as a future working group work item). Happy to have this serve as a starting point in such a case; but if nothing else I figured it might be useful for someone :) -Toke _______________________________________________ babel mailing list babel@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel =20 --=20 We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could = produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, = we know that is not true. =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky ------=_NextPart_000_08D6_01D19039.FE81A560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please see RFC 6982 for = another view.

This may depend on the amount = of information you are trying to distribute.

Adrian

 

From: babel = [mailto:babel-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony = Przygienda
Sent: 05 April 2016 18:22
To: Toke = H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen
Cc: Babel at = IETF
Subject: Re: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft = form

 

implementation experience drafts/rfcs are pretty = common on routing protocols here. See e.g. = 4167 

 

AFAIR they used to be even required on PS last calls = ;-) 

 

--- tony 

 

On Tue, = Apr 5, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen <toke@toke.dk> = wrote:

I took some time to write up = my implementation experiences in draft
form; basically it's mytalk = from the BoF in text. See
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergen= sen-babel-implementation/

Joel mentioned the possibility of = turning such a document into an
informative RFC (as a future working = group work item). Happy to have
this serve as a starting point in = such a case; but if nothing else I
figured it might be useful for = someone = :)

-Toke

_______________________________________________babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel



 

-- =

We=E2=80=99ve = heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the = complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that = is not true.

=E2=80=94Robert = Wilensky

= ------=_NextPart_000_08D6_01D19039.FE81A560-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 10:06:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9137612D1E5 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PeVsSylmILeY for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CE9112D712 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u38H45og026940 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:06:37 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 226f9qk96s-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:06:37 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u38H6aAE002592 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:06:36 -0400 Received: from alpi133.aldc.att.com (alpi133.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.3]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u38H6VLA002471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:06:31 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.152]) by alpi133.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:06:17 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.171]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:06:16 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "babel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Babel management info model Thread-Index: AdGRshlwpMnZ8CRjRQywi259YNJRbw== Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:06:15 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.237.182] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-08_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603180000 definitions=main-1604080253 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:06:47 -0000 Repeating what I said in the BoF... The router in a home network that is most likely to be managed is the ISP-p= rovided router. There are 100s of millions of those around the world, and t= he ones that are managed are managed using BBF TR-069. AFAIK, none are mana= ged using netconf. Therefore I recommend creating an information model that can be used to cre= ate any management protocol data model (e.g., YANG or TR-069). Something I didn't say in the BoF, but would like to add... There are many retail routers that ship today with support for SNMP managem= ent. As most consumers are unaware of what SNMP is or does and are not very= knowledgeable about securing or disabling it, this SNMP is often used by h= ackers to get access to people's home routers. In the ISP-provided routers = I've been able to influence, I've explicitly forbidden SNMP from even exist= ing in the firmware. It's good for enterprises with remote workers who need= to manage the workers' routers and have IT people who (sort of but often n= ot really) know what they're doing. It's incredibly bad in an unmanaged env= ironment (which is the target homenet and Babel environment). Management pr= otocols in unmanaged or poorly-managed routers are an open invitation to ha= ckers.=20 Retail routers that do support management protocols must not have some sort= of automated (no user involvement required) way of establishing a trust re= lationship with any management entity. And they must not use default creden= tials. Establishing trust must always be under the control of the user, and= should not be something the user is encouraged to do without understanding= the risks. It must not be tied to establishment of trust for a different p= urpose (e.g., do not automatically assign trust to manage just because a de= vice is trusted to be on the physical network). A key premise of homenet is= that we cannot expect users to have a good grasp of security. Therefore, i= t's critical that any homenet routing protocol in retail devices be able to= operate well without user (or service provider) configuration/management. = If management of the routing protocol is needed for it to work reasonably w= ell, then we have already failed. With that said, I can definitely see cases where Babel may be used in manag= ed routers that exist inside the homenet, and where the service provider (w= ho may be an ISP, ASP, enterprise, or a geek squad of some sort) is supplyi= ng and managing those routers. Such providers do like to be able to tweak s= ettings in order to optimize the routing protocol function. Therefore, I do= think it's a good idea to define the information model. Barbara From nobody Fri Apr 8 10:18:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8388712D5C7 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:18:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0zmhrnIN0ss for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x231.google.com (mail-oi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02A3F12D0CA for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id y204so143598100oie.3 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=2UErMu6G0acqSsLLyjNGyBTifFlfvTzLI5+aCE8P6+c=; b=ygAtFF9fVOvh/U/FUQC3R9tYxN8Ik4VjZm2QltZtSongcboZTTAQsVwPQ14+tMG693 u/7j3mI8bBGnBhxrZ9cliHSrYumD1Ahuh3E0ni1yf+ykprSm9Ltycom8P4un8fA/iY4u /bsIvF4Pfn7vBnV3G8a8+KdUxBsx8ymT/127I8+tV8CsjPQULfXhu2zHTpkZqXBZpFAO kKJHO9Jd6TfPYPOZlVGzd8PpuZebefBPoQMyqI4KwCF+916Gw5RytGESEXm+yTkiuzgy jhzvh3dP03cKG3q+MKGm+3+U2PpU7V4lUVwX52jUY0waqA808wqgqji2eFyjIRU7CCMJ yfiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=2UErMu6G0acqSsLLyjNGyBTifFlfvTzLI5+aCE8P6+c=; b=X0XA/TB2PJAUku4/UMq0Dt5hfQ5t4Oy+PtS0wyj94rbl0wEAstWjAoJ3oxzBlAdmLC 71/3Z3cU7aXAEl0tQqemjrLcfaWDtGvL+w9s+tQ0ZunvLJPxB3kdQhoUQhg6Ou/tys5Q lp82nONbXf96TA8xWa9lnoHxbAjtvR0gxkmT1iyYnM4OUHFZZMgZkMTlYcY879ZoOjWB n3BZC8aLYf4I2mvy1obf8rumlCjcE6XeexaRC+phU4PIrjDa/nc1yZ+CQRT9s0/rR0cA vLBqzbuD62xYT3Dk6OBIsIZM2HiQUVEm0w5uVIs/gWdBxXVAG+tC1J/8cKX9FTJrA73o kfHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLUS68jtpaH6zg1Dhuk13Q0QqN6Izljjgjve8G3eAxQER5JhPd/Grj1x4k9CD9WZ5kk9zZ4ooTyPNXyZw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.178.135 with SMTP id b129mr4591422oif.139.1460135908402; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.79.215 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:18:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:18:30 -0000 I am sad that snmp is so underused, underappreciated, and underconfigured today. There are many cases where I or a more advanced (small business user) would like to be able to obtain upstream statistics and configuration information from my isp-provided device and to not have it be such a black box. Compared to say, upnp, the typical read-only nature of snmp statistics has not struck me as a "threat", per se, and with tools like mrtg, cacti, etc, widely available to process them, still useful. Graphical (web) monitoring of key statistics at the router is a feature that most home routers have, in fact it is often a selling point. tools like collectd, vnstat, and so on have evolved beyond pure snmp From nobody Fri Apr 8 10:32:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97F712D110 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4QLiZHfT5PXm for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56CF612D0E4 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u38HTJ7N020611; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:32:45 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 226h0s89fx-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:32:45 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u38HWiJg003686; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u38HWcWF003552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:32:39 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.156]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:32:32 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.171]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 13:32:31 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Dave Taht Thread-Topic: [babel] Babel management info model Thread-Index: AdGRshlwpMnZ8CRjRQywi259YNJRbwAKhgQAAAhJnzA= Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 17:32:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.237.182] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-08_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603180000 definitions=main-1604080258 Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:32:48 -0000 SGkgRGF2ZSwgZ3JlYXQgdG8gaGVhciBmcm9tIHlvdSEgV2UgbWlzc2VkIHlvdS4NCg0KPiBUaGVy ZSBhcmUgbWFueSBjYXNlcyB3aGVyZSBJIG9yIGEgbW9yZSBhZHZhbmNlZCAoc21hbGwgYnVzaW5l c3MNCj4gdXNlcikgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIG9idGFpbiB1cHN0cmVhbSBzdGF0 aXN0aWNzIGFuZCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uDQo+IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGZyb20gbXkgaXNwLXByb3Zp ZGVkIGRldmljZSBhbmQgdG8gbm90IGhhdmUgaXQgYmUgc3VjaCBhIGJsYWNrDQo+IGJveC4NCi0t c25pcC0tDQo+IEdyYXBoaWNhbCAod2ViKSBtb25pdG9yaW5nIG9mIGtleSBzdGF0aXN0aWNzIGF0 IHRoZSByb3V0ZXIgaXMgYSBmZWF0dXJlIHRoYXQNCj4gbW9zdCBob21lIHJvdXRlcnMgaGF2ZSwg aW4gZmFjdCBpdCBpcyBvZnRlbiBhIHNlbGxpbmcgcG9pbnQuDQoNCkkgdG90YWxseSBhZ3JlZSB0 aGF0IHdlIG5lZWQgYSBzdGFuZGFyZCAoeG1sIG9yIGpzb24gZGF0YSBtb2RlbCkgdGhhdCBjYW4g YmUgdXNlZCBieSByb3V0ZXJzIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgaW5mbyBhYm91dCB0aGVtc2VsdmVzIChXQU4v TEFOIHN0YXRpc3RpY3MsIGV0Yy4pLiBNeSB0aGlua2luZyBpcyB0aGF0IGlmIHJvdXRlcnMgc3Vw cGxpZWQgdGhpcyB2aWEgdGhlaXIgaHR0cCBzZXJ2ZXIsIGFuZCBhZHZlcnRpc2VkIHRoZSBVUkwg dXNpbmcgRE5TLVNELCB0aGF0IGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHJlYWxseSB1c2VmdWwuIEkgd2FzIHRhbGtp bmcgd2l0aCBKdWxpdXN6IGFib3V0IHRoYXQganVzdCB5ZXN0ZXJkYXkuIEFuZCwgeWVzLCBpZiBz b21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSB0aGF0IGV4aXN0ZWQgSSB3b3VsZCBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IHB1c2ggZm9yIGl0 IHRvIGdvIGludG8gSVNQLXByb3ZpZGVkIHJvdXRlcnMuDQoNCk15IGVtYWlsIHdhcyByZWFsbHkg YWJvdXQgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBhbmQgbm90IHN0YXRpc3RpY3MuIFRob3VnaCBldmVuIHdydCBz dGF0aXN0aWNzLCB1bnNlY3VyZWQgU05NUCBjYW4gYmUgZGFuZ2Vyb3VzLCBzaW5jZSBpdCBoYXMg YmVlbiB1c2VkIHRvIGxhdW5jaCBERG9TIGF0dGFja3MgYWdhaW5zdCBjZXJ0YWluIHByb3ZpZGVy cycgU05NUCBzZXJ2ZXJzLg0KQmFyYmFyYQ0K From nobody Fri Apr 8 11:00:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE812D167 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzTtY3gfuSRP for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8D7D12D09F for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id g184so86343780lfb.3 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6pYF5i57it+H1g1zQHhEC0lOO9hy+U3BophM9EKJDeA=; b=uDbo1ovBeqOIHApSA0VA9fPb+VCDtWnr3x2K9FmYwIbnDB5DjspL8V4GLAZo48csP2 ZEMnr44FBBtauC/j9VzF/58m6/6IG0QeszsYRB9YDkyywqPLJ6hkhR6fsnY91pHGGNeF sx+/UZZEfa5fbcWk6cYGdt22gxV+r3RYNZko9suMG9fMktPMBXyTdNTlaSaZG0LksGJo cbl5EDPFwnMW5txk8jKCPL363CmkDVPGPAO9ZOxBP+wrz7yvlzCcTiiL2l6zfem28U+d pajg6IIJOADArVC6j0xlr+v4Udi4Pv5y0r9azvg11JAkWGywDca6qR8dya8DvLxonzBq QsDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6pYF5i57it+H1g1zQHhEC0lOO9hy+U3BophM9EKJDeA=; b=NzcKjfceSz65zXBi006ObbtgWg5RYmpDL32GeQiFf02AiqTMI3LUcg/3j6Rg5u5boA ouh3mAUnZYHNji8EDXA3H7GZbSxBLoKOszRoTUHNirweV5x/aoIi5qv12jhNWyHWF8Hs J1oFhbqkMPFeSfvOd+5Ij+1xyOYwrl+bbt2DoZPFwsDK4Yko9vQNkDPJGnd0Zzm+vatZ O4ehR3vR25tiduclYLylYu8z9I7mVsbPRvkqRFLPJoI6POzObtwCxq/U8yidgnK7LcH6 qaiaGtM7eLwqbiX6GWDtvg1d4vi5hNUp/XYhQv6VHE5H/XawkDxNC46uRG3mj7ogq/xB Hhxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKJcqLb3Qj/G6d8VbgJkAvj/gxPn/D26S+SfYLn85nF1ebZg9G3mRmaCYgRcWNyVVw0j3G25XtXQvpGKg== X-Received: by 10.112.156.6 with SMTP id wa6mr4042058lbb.66.1460138414998; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 11:00:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.21.30 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 10:59:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 19:59:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Dave Taht , "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 18:00:19 -0000 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 7:32 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > Hi Dave, great to hear from you! We missed you. > >> There are many cases where I or a more advanced (small business >> user) would like to be able to obtain upstream statistics and configurat= ion >> information from my isp-provided device and to not have it be such a bla= ck >> box. > --snip-- >> Graphical (web) monitoring of key statistics at the router is a feature = that >> most home routers have, in fact it is often a selling point. > > I totally agree that we need a standard (xml or json data model) that can= be used by routers to provide info about themselves (WAN/LAN statistics, e= tc.). My thinking is that if routers supplied this via their http server, a= nd advertised the URL using DNS-SD, that it would be really useful. I was t= alking with Juliusz about that just yesterday. And, yes, if something like = that existed I would definitely push for it to go into ISP-provided routers= . > > My email was really about configuration and not statistics. Though even w= rt statistics, unsecured SNMP can be dangerous, since it has been used to l= aunch DDoS attacks against certain providers' SNMP servers. > Barbara Maybe I could point you to http://netjson.org/ which is a collaborative attempt for some "standardized router information via JSON" of several mesh routing protocol people. Henning Rogge From nobody Fri Apr 8 15:33:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E1F12D5A5 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yXzQunKY4thn for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender163-mail.zoho.com (sender163-mail.zoho.com [74.201.84.163]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A613912D581 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1460154824921301.1770262655731; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 23:33:44 +0100 From: Denis Ovsienko To: Message-ID: <153f80278a6.f1906b36198.576233487175401627@ovsienko.info> In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-Zoho-Virus-Status: 1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 22:33:51 -0000 ---- On Fri, 08 Apr 2016 18:18:28 +0100 Dave Taht wrote ---- > I am sad that snmp is so underused, underappreciated, and > underconfigured today. There are many cases where I or a more advanced > (small business user) would like to be able to obtain upstream > statistics and configuration information from my isp-provided device > and to not have it be such a black box. > > Compared to say, upnp, the typical read-only nature of snmp statistics > has not struck me as a "threat", per se, and with tools like mrtg, > cacti, etc, widely available to process them, still useful. > > Graphical (web) monitoring of key statistics at the router is a > feature that most home routers have, in fact it is often a selling > point. Hi Dave and all. I remember in one of those plastic home routers I had some time ago there was an option for a telnet server and maybe even SNMP, and indeed software implementation quality could be better. But the vendor managed to get two key points right, namely: 1. The protocol was disabled by default. 2. When on, it was available on the LAN side of the device only. Does it make any sense? -- Denis Ovsienko From nobody Fri Apr 8 16:20:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9792E12D55E for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 69-J_ZmRQCqX for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56B6A127058 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u38NKBJA004994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Apr 2016 01:20:11 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u38NKBZh002621; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 01:20:11 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B4F61FA7; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 01:20:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 4-0JUglY1utC; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 01:20:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.191.217.194]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF31F61F9A; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 01:20:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 20:20:08 -0300 Message-ID: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 01:20:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 01:20:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57083CAB.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57083CAB.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57083CAB.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57083CAB.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57083CAB.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57083CAB.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 23:20:15 -0000 Thanks to all who notified me about the Babel web pages being down -- our web server was moved. I think I have migrated everything to the new server, please let me know if you see anything amiss (broken links, incorrect MIME types, missing redirects, etc.). Sorry for the incompetence, -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Apr 9 05:28:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07EE12D63A for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmuxK-hoZWaB for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF33C12D639 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id n3so51269790wmn.0 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 05:28:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UzKRRaqU9HdV/AU3oJ658JmKqmYrzESTOd8CZQZwH1g=; b=SjxTbD0wF4xvJMOWzkdoz9hvz9IgvU5etig05bmf8bwvw/hRExsSxchGw4uOqtsQdH uzwQZRMaeO+hvmJ8PKtXvG52zzDRvlWBW8EMAX3IP6o79cZO+4mqzrDOQfLeNF4Xiqzh v0S+ch+t1FkPtlFeIUQo1weulsMR9L02FfLv7efNcu3LB3WNSoxAVIgQ3+LUZIxOS3zy urLGuPo4hvh43ij/IsCaOP6atUoOdNFchuee6u8iSkjMPtIZzTbtD1OfUi5T5LH25I09 mNqNhoGenlHIBJg551HZtiUsBURgphonZedKhbWW6PTRo37iM6kn/WcEg5yifIrZATiF gsdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UzKRRaqU9HdV/AU3oJ658JmKqmYrzESTOd8CZQZwH1g=; b=jxL3CUBvwfQ4HF7CSJxJirAHHkycKCLDEjcPRY6lxKY3GsOSP5qfyxT/s+RiHEa9Q2 THXhAvbXijIbocpSflBrzl7J8s+5+xs93sirBb3kK5uqiNE0tUvV4eeWyscxWfcOVU9u cd4omjuiXbAmtvkQxS+hDpZeo8M55iWrTNCk+JIFwuat2IxlvwYJDiee+rXNgCoTwfWa qTzTbZL02fSa6O3c6sV6wOwikQsxNq8hzIOHq1hd+sc9sotv7bywiNrnD1W/i6QS/jHj D0SNLHWW6aMKRExpSQSjwU6nqGdraGHJaFvAAmAJ/Mf7NVrbnHzAY9MY7DTulJPR+jvN MkWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLmAMISQeTPaNAV0P+3L+kGPK/OKZQGsA6LL113jkKNxp/APCMGfkoeMnR4WA9Q0RCjgU+8NfRbWwg0sAul X-Received: by 10.28.144.8 with SMTP id s8mr8558153wmd.39.1460204883092; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 05:28:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.2.19 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:27:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 14:27:23 +0200 Message-ID: To: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1145b3145b83e105300c71b7 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 12:28:06 -0000 --001a1145b3145b83e105300c71b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ is still a 404 for me. Gabriel On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek < jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > Thanks to all who notified me about the Babel web pages being down -- our > web server was moved. I think I have migrated everything to the new > server, please let me know if you see anything amiss (broken links, > incorrect MIME types, missing redirects, etc.). > > Sorry for the incompetence, > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > --001a1145b3145b83e105300c71b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gabriel
=

On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Juliusz Chro= boczek <jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
Thanks to all who notified me about the Bab= el web pages being down -- our
web server was moved.=C2=A0 I think I have migrated everything to the new server, please let me know if you see anything amiss (broken links,
incorrect MIME types, missing redirects, etc.).

Sorry for the incompetence,

-- Juliusz

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

--001a1145b3145b83e105300c71b7-- From nobody Sat Apr 9 07:37:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00E212B013 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEI3yvEbuMza for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D715812B011 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39Eb41r023164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:37:04 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u39Eb4sQ018232; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:37:04 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F061061FA5; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:37:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id W5YNvIlQoFua; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:37:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7D1161F9A; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:37:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 11:36:56 -0300 Message-ID: <87shyusvav.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Gabriel Kerneis In-Reply-To: References: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:37:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:37:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57091390.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57091390.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57091390.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57091390.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57091390.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57091390.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:37:08 -0000 > http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ is still a 404 > for me. Strange. For me, it redirects cleanly: $ curl -i http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ | sed -n -e '1p' -e '/^Location:/p' HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently Location: https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ Caching issue? -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Apr 9 07:50:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4339D12B014 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_MIME_MALF=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PxFUiAqwrrcM for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E15C12B007 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v188so43371676wme.1 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 07:50:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DuBWm1Dy5sakyM1fb7+Efwj7+RGC+6wZrUXP3r6Khpk=; b=Z8KeOnHs32iRd3chptp5tXOw1SHcTDnTbgCMjUpBMfv/S5JhsYVxdm4p84mJDngzvN kI8MtE3WaxiBC860zh01ZoGHUNRj9orDSjOhJixJUkfJaEZ2JiIEzAKRsv7Wfh9pIIly oCFllV3yhHzSrUnpH9ZxdAqJ/mrvs2LafKR5S2297aCmOIIO7f9ycgDgAyJ+FVR3nOd/ pUskacFpty3wVd666bbpx0bxU6sR9VJ6gJ7dyku6onCqi6mHRavbQUgNpxwYPFbpG4z4 kFNKJcxc5Sim8tQnE8wrp9dUktL85cEQVct6U0fTtGSE3U17R7SaEiAQSylhIff3g0vy V+Kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DuBWm1Dy5sakyM1fb7+Efwj7+RGC+6wZrUXP3r6Khpk=; b=kMynsxoefEQ1QWrZSXz/BQFACJMPSXuNtH/uYwqd0eI5G5nRacqCDRjtXRWILTZP69 cyvybr2ruffBck7t3weI0Vijy7W2BQLqyzkX6Mzp6VKPW4z/KYIOR8Tm6JoofDdRyySo /5avVqLv+FcdCZh2QOYZUSxllJVk8NbIkAqwmWj7XrfzA3uHRMtlTlYmUjYJXDNVk3BS qCYY24Bet+HO1p03FnN52r3JCzMIcXxZpPc/pbNAqnDFmL78WDsEimjEtKk5ftzM/v35 1wK/kj/RSCp7uxKtXUh7LYo0YNF8peuadxh+dcF/MSN4hP2UEVYfdlrTN5ZiT7l1kn8i /1FQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKSOteLDJ2LXml9Esk0n/o2/cKk41RsZAxmcj0ChzpbfFYG9RAXCG4Ja4DuFFTxZpVJ0lKdlRRh62m+ZqZY X-Received: by 10.194.186.242 with SMTP id fn18mr16408289wjc.65.1460212945935; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 07:42:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.2.19 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87shyusvav.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87shyusvav.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 16:41:46 +0200 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb04deaf0bdaa05300e515e Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:50:18 -0000 --047d7bb04deaf0bdaa05300e515e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek < jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > $ curl -i http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ | > sed -n -e '1p' -e '/^Location:/p' > HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently > Location: https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ Try with IPv6: $ curl -i -4 http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:40:29 GMT Server: Apache/2.4.18 (FreeBSD) PHP/5.6.20 OpenSSL/0.9.8zh-freebsd Location: https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ Content-Length: 267 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 301 Moved Permanently

Moved Permanently

The document has moved here.

$ curl -i -6 http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found Accept-Ranges: none Cache-Control: no-cache Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:39:22 GMT Expires: 0 Server: Ocsigen Transfer-Encoding: chunked Error 404

Not Found

Error 404

Ocsigen_extensions.Ocsigen_http_error(_)
(Ocsigen running in debug mode)

-- Gabriel --047d7bb04deaf0bdaa05300e515e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.f= r> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ curl -i http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ | sed = -n -e '1p' -e '/^Location:/p'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Location: https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot= .fr/~jch/software/babel/

Try with IPv6:=

HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:40:29 GMT
Server: Apache/2.4.18 (Free= BSD) PHP/5.6.20 OpenSSL/0.9.8zh-freebsd
Content-Length: 267=
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
<html><head>
<title>301 Moved Permanen= tly</title>
</head><body>
<h1>M= oved Permanently</h1>
<p>The document has moved <a= href=3D"https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/&= quot;>here</a>.</p>
</body></html>

HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
Accept-Ra= nges: none
Cache-Control: no-cache
Content-Type: text/h= tml; charset=3Dutf-8
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:39:22 GMT
Expires: 0
Server: Ocsigen
Transfer-Encoding: chunked=

<?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D&qu= ot;UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XH= TML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"><!-- Pag= e generated by OCaml with Ocsigen.
See http://ocsigen.org/ and http://= caml.inria.fr/ for information -->
<html xmlns=3D"= http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml&q= uot;><head><title>Error 404</title></head><bo= dy><h1>Not Found</h1><p>Error 404</p><p>Oc= sigen_extensions.Ocsigen_http_error(_)<br /><em>(Ocsigen runnin= g in debug mode)</em></p></body></html>
<= br>
--=C2=A0
Gabriel
--047d7bb04deaf0bdaa05300e515e-- From nobody Sat Apr 9 08:17:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA0E12B021 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:17:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7OwgoSlLPVo for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA39E12B01B for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39FHcVQ000783; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:17:38 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3B161FAD; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:17:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id HZJ94Ee1fw0y; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:17:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31A9A61FAB; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 17:17:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 12:17:32 -0300 Message-ID: <87mvp2stf7.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Gabriel Kerneis In-Reply-To: References: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87shyusvav.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 17:17:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57091D12.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57091D12.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57091D12.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 15:17:43 -0000 > Try with IPv6: Thanks for the information. I've filed a ticket with our network administration people, but it's Saturday today. The new address is: https://www.irif.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/babel/ but don't get used to it, since I don't count on our hierarchy to understand the importance of stability in naming, and each new administrator wants to make his mark by renaming us. In case it doesn't show, yes, I'm pissed off. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Apr 9 09:22:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D79312B03E for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECWAQ3L3ER77 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE59812B038 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39GMIYd014955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:22:18 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u39GMHqX006312; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:22:17 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA6861FA5; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:22:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 4rjmVJUkYK0w; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AEA961FAB; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:22:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 13:22:11 -0300 Message-ID: <877fg6sqfg.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Toke =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= In-Reply-To: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> References: <87lh4syt45.fsf@toke.dk> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:22:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:22:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57092C3A.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57092C39.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57092C3A.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57092C39.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57092C3A.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57092C39.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] Implementation experiences in draft form X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:22:21 -0000 > I took some time to write up my implementation experiences in draft > form; basically it's mytalk from the BoF in text. See > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeiland-joergensen-babel-implementation/ Thanks. I'd expand the "really, that's it?" bit, which you explain quite eloquently (and amusingly) in person, but which you didn't quite manage to reflect in the text. In Section 3.7, you may want to mention that merging the extension mechanism into the main document would solve this particular issue. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Apr 9 09:42:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C7912B04A for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BtQfxoymBMzS for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFB0312B010 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39Ggj1b019912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:42:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u39GgjnR010572; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:42:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DFE61FA7; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:42:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 0tre4JxjProS; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:42:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7829A61F9A; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:42:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 13:42:38 -0300 Message-ID: <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: "STARK, BARBARA H" In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:42:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:42:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57093105.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57093105.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57093105.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57093105.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57093105.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57093105.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:42:51 -0000 Thanks again for volunteering, Barbara. > The router in a home network that is most likely to be managed is the > ISP-provided router. There are 100s of millions of those around the > world, and the ones that are managed are managed using BBF > TR-069. AFAIK, none are managed using netconf. Noted. > Therefore I recommend creating an information model that can be used to > create any management protocol data model (e.g., YANG or TR-069). Can you point us at somewhere that explains the difference between an information model and a management protocol data model? > With that said, I can definitely see cases where Babel may be used in > managed routers that exist inside the homenet, and where the service > provider [...] is [...] managing those routers. [...] Therefore, I do > think it's a good idea to define the information model. Yes. Babeld (the reference implementation) currently has an ad-hoc monitoring and management interface that reflects the implementation's data structures and is almost completely undocumented. You can get at the monitoring data by running babeld with the "-g 33123" flag, telnetting to ::1 port 33123, and issuing the command "dump all". I'm appending an example of the output. One important subtlety is that associations ("neighour relations") are between interfaces, identified by link-local addresses, while routes are announced by nodes, identified by router-ids. That's a fundamental property of the protocol, that is not likely to change. The reason the interface is undocumented is that I reserve the right to change it at every minor version of the implementation (Babeld's version numbering is major.menor.chiquita). So I hope we can manage to make it so that the output of the monitoring interface maps cleanly to the information model (by tweaking one or the other or both). Example Babeld's monitoring dump follows. The "add" at the beginning can be ignored, this is followed by one of "neighbour" (association), "xroute" (locally redistributed route) and "route" (route learned from a neighbour). This is followed by a unique (at any given time) identifier, and a sequence of keyword-value pairs. [...] add neighbour 835680 address fe80::218:84ff:fe24:8055 if wlan0 reach ffff rxcost 256 txcost 256 cost 256 add neighbour 837ca8 address fe80::21b:b1ff:fe83:8d39 if wlan0 reach ffef rxcost 256 txcost 992 cost 992 [...] add xroute 192.168.4.39/32-::/0 prefix 192.168.4.39/32 from ::/0 metric 0 add xroute 2001:660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128-::/0 prefix 2001:660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128 from ::/0 metric 0 [...] add route 192.168.4.3/32-838ae8-::/0 prefix 192.168.4.3/32 from ::/0 installed yes id b6:b5:2f:ff:fe:b8:35:c3 metric 96 refmetric 0 via fe80::b6b5:2fff:feb8:35c3 if gre-rhodium [...] From nobody Sat Apr 9 09:44:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E0512B04D for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J1SEfmniWRuL for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 219CB12B04A for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39GiJpT020342; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:44:19 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDAB61FA5; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:44:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id VFdAQgRmliij; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:44:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D88761F9A; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:44:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 13:44:12 -0300 Message-ID: <874mbasper.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Henning Rogge In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:44:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57093163.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57093163.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57093163.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: [babel] NetJSON [was: Babel management info model] X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:44:22 -0000 > Maybe I could point you to http://netjson.org/ which is a > collaborative attempt for some "standardized router information via > JSON" of several mesh routing protocol people. Seconded, it would be good to start a discussion between the NetJSON and the IETF communities (I think it's called "outreach" over here). Not only here, also in MANET and ROLL. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Apr 9 09:59:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B93912B04E for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0gonyNLBwf1 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B76DB12B051 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s79so167541784oie.1 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7M6hDDrEBDtRr2sjaKvBiwXjxRFvkYNND/vJJ79lMtY=; b=Xx2QHO5gJqzfzqVfSFeVhd+QtAvQ9XRYWxIug/V9E5Jaz1BTtekOqrO4lXDEIPP1pj AazzsDJRrEEy8gmleyfbbxQqnbXJz1Y0LptnX0wDk7rJv0H+VUoPUxcuVlQJwAcWN4WC t1rWPz21eOe9rRTwEkRjeXuNgyLjmnsl3PoCao6hers/5ov/AbkB2tI123sx9mAZrnso SEsV3lVcpku212Ct4vNjPSEaoW6m5B12mHj+ryJsiMg10XD4tvFpmDGhyCTdFnBmwa/W OxcJKQwHAz+SAYr+ceCOAQC78gEm82+MM2wu1sSwSzYMA94zTtlzC58Iwy7M+oNxra1n gzag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7M6hDDrEBDtRr2sjaKvBiwXjxRFvkYNND/vJJ79lMtY=; b=PAIl3n/adz0tD6UzV3GQeh52gJrOgE7fE4puk27qaMQJ6g6HqaZIX08MGypeWg2bMB EvhFTvSpNlKDWNs0u0aglYHIMMFzPadEG6JyYxCNR5t2aQ5DLGOJHjPVdn52fSsxtHrR K3IOQXcDz9ylooT9TtuBI5XL0IeIFXOOKMNSmsL1hdLVqPZduFbrT8nUei+Df5OZ3A9y VUrZMeFYVbTnfl3oTXhD1FbNZpDzBy8+fyBSGn6rQUpoo+NqISg1m035TRKRKDVgU/QG PoRbUtrySpISHIRoa2MK8wwb+rj2ZMLhU6fxY3sWI+9IkTcdypjJwcicWHGx5J3CPuAq n0gQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJL1ZbR1ibxOwxwur6WLFqnnWPh7mZW2eKQWkocVYvwWP0wuYNjnjveLTD2ofeqbWcU9iPPTl43gmRd6yA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.75.210 with SMTP id y201mr6431461oia.116.1460221194125; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.79.215 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 09:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 16:59:56 -0000 On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:32 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > Hi Dave, great to hear from you! We missed you. Thank you. Missed y'all too! I enjoyed attending much of this past weeks' ietf via meetecho, rather than in person. Meetecho has come a long way in the last few years, short of adding some sort of VR support to it and having robots walking the halls, I can't imagine a better way to interact remotely than that. Hmm... having a robot might be cheaper than airfare and hotel.... I do plan to make the berlin ietf, but my primary focus has been on trying to find ways to make wifi better as more and more users are piled onto it. We've been making some progress on that ( see: http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/fq_codel_on_ath10k/ for some promising results) but I don't know how that will tie into more ietf processes, it's more IEEE 802.11wg than anything. Certainly if this research track pans out it could feed back into better routing metrics, but we have a long way to go as yet. > >> There are many cases where I or a more advanced (small business >> user) would like to be able to obtain upstream statistics and configurat= ion >> information from my isp-provided device and to not have it be such a bla= ck >> box. > --snip-- >> Graphical (web) monitoring of key statistics at the router is a feature = that >> most home routers have, in fact it is often a selling point. > > I totally agree that we need a standard (xml or json data model) that can= be used by routers to provide info about themselves (WAN/LAN statistics, e= tc.). My thinking is that if routers supplied this via their http server, a= nd advertised the URL using DNS-SD, that it would be really useful. I was t= alking with Juliusz about that just yesterday. And, yes, if something like = that existed I would definitely push for it to go into ISP-provided routers= . Well, I would like it if existing tools and methods could be looked at, again, and improved, if possible, before rewriting the universe. Me, at the moment, I'd merely like some standardized means to get the ISP provided uplink/downlink rates widely available to applications. upnp, for example, has this capability, but there is generally no way to fetch it from the isp. Other things, such as packet drop rates and bandwidth usage are handled well by snmp. (I'd like to see CE events in a post-ecn world, and latency under load, and so on) > > My email was really about configuration and not statistics. I get it. Yes, this is an area where much work is needed. TR-69 however seems like an example of how not to do it, but perhaps it too could be improved. Is there work within the ietf on it? Or is the trend netconf/yang/etc? Wedging linux itself into the openwrt uci configuration tool (which is json based) has been a PITA, but is working halfway decently these days. >Though even wrt statistics, unsecured SNMP can be dangerous, since it has = been used to launch DDoS attacks against certain providers' SNMP servers. Is snmp (for statistics) beyond hope? My impression had been that most of the problems were from old versions of common snmp daemons being widely deployed, un-updated, and insecured in the field. I agree that snmp for configuration is probably beyond hope. > Barbara From nobody Sat Apr 9 11:10:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2813C12D0A9 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:10:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GqY8ZdnCKM9I for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 434F112D0AF for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u39IAcSk008044; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:10:38 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E218A61F9A; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:10:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id e3fsSIZF5RDI; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:10:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4728461FA5; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:10:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 15:10:31 -0300 Message-ID: <87mvp2r6ug.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Gabriel Kerneis In-Reply-To: <87mvp2stf7.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <87y48nzo0n.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87shyusvav.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87mvp2stf7.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sat, 09 Apr 2016 20:10:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5709459E.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5709459E.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5709459E.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel web pages back up X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:10:43 -0000 > Thanks for the information. I've filed a ticket with our network > administration people, but it's Saturday today. ...and they fixed it straight away. I'm under shock. From nobody Sat Apr 9 20:32:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3356312D55C for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iqvDJnko5QoS for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7912B12D55B for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x234.google.com with SMTP id j9so92956307obd.3 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 20:32:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=UUHoorxgR2Dr0PpyQbawK6kCgM/8akrwM821NgkU/d8=; b=goTU6Y2AALK3zOrBDLmo1lEe4pcJ+cwglJSVg6y/1eRt7HkrweZBA8wX3tp4ybDpmy /VwrDBfl+vBhmPVAgC7sKYNpIjNe05Tmt8kWr5cr4Galbt612TfAXYTp2Ls60i/FeR5F ek4qbMU4zCTVQV8EwvosnPcTjsNojr4tSS5j5t+GI3T6370+Qwgz7eijhQyQFEPk7Cck 0tQi8lRhJMjZu77FsF8RvZ4nRXFQtE4zFJuldbpx6Jmjh3Shp6y7OSh/xEG7iqUMeAHZ Lvay+r69sHosxoh9S3hIRHsg0gVlG34U1nyJGPjgMSr7dm1PKxCkiqoNpK1Wum/2q5th GZPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=UUHoorxgR2Dr0PpyQbawK6kCgM/8akrwM821NgkU/d8=; b=Xw6J5hJOAFK/r05QiWfikEusdMWp2ROlwJeZgF7YnrXwJ0UcRq5ro96ARg0REFlVAT yZuSI6oCS9FSRfyPTRdlGxKXxb1FiJp7vXT5ZT46EE48z8qQy/QDmtZIcpylk2YDMCoj rkG8VbkjhYoExDBjeuRMdhreOM4M3W7vawE31LgqMHT5EX68JWm0UjxVYht2IBSC54/V puXWV1hCYgfViaSF1PVqg9W6ahl1XoZnxXtQ0Fa5I7mE3cDrf3IpuiOKjLVoktYiwuXJ IbEmRVc21zKsruv+camgy90YAUj8WRP/nek/IGgprfluPX5DkGi9PXbd5v0LZaAfF/JA IcRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIwnNlTzuwmPvs7XvxSIWPqc/A3R0jaaoR+2V2f5WYRPjJmWKqXRcoeJF6SxEqt76Tll2NMXufnY87fdQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.165.99 with SMTP id yx3mr7774020obb.20.1460259133902; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 20:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:32:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 23:32:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2ea6af4da1305301912bc Archived-At: Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 03:32:16 -0000 --001a11c2ea6af4da1305301912bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 For some thoughts on information models, take a look at RFC 3444( https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3444). That's what I did when I first started thinking about them for I2RS. I do believe that information models can be useful when there are multiple data modeling languages necessary, as Barbara suggested. I am a bit leery if them otherwise, because after one, there's still nothing to implement. Regards, Alia On Apr 9, 2016 1:42 PM, "Juliusz Chroboczek" wrote: > Thanks again for volunteering, Barbara. > > > The router in a home network that is most likely to be managed is the > > ISP-provided router. There are 100s of millions of those around the > > world, and the ones that are managed are managed using BBF > > TR-069. AFAIK, none are managed using netconf. > > Noted. > > > Therefore I recommend creating an information model that can be used to > > create any management protocol data model (e.g., YANG or TR-069). > > Can you point us at somewhere that explains the difference between an > information model and a management protocol data model? > > > With that said, I can definitely see cases where Babel may be used in > > managed routers that exist inside the homenet, and where the service > > provider [...] is [...] managing those routers. [...] Therefore, I do > > think it's a good idea to define the information model. > > Yes. > > Babeld (the reference implementation) currently has an ad-hoc monitoring > and management interface that reflects the implementation's data > structures and is almost completely undocumented. You can get at the > monitoring data by running babeld with the "-g 33123" flag, telnetting > to ::1 port 33123, and issuing the command "dump all". I'm appending an > example of the output. One important subtlety is that associations > ("neighour relations") are between interfaces, identified by link-local > addresses, while routes are announced by nodes, identified by router-ids. > That's a fundamental property of the protocol, that is not likely to > change. > > The reason the interface is undocumented is that I reserve the right to > change it at every minor version of the implementation (Babeld's version > numbering is major.menor.chiquita). So I hope we can manage to make it so > that the output of the monitoring interface maps cleanly to the information > model (by tweaking one or the other or both). > > Example Babeld's monitoring dump follows. The "add" at the beginning can > be ignored, this is followed by one of "neighbour" (association), "xroute" > (locally redistributed route) and "route" (route learned from > a neighbour). This is followed by a unique (at any given time) > identifier, and a sequence of keyword-value pairs. > > [...] > add neighbour 835680 address fe80::218:84ff:fe24:8055 if wlan0 reach > ffff rxcost 256 txcost 256 cost 256 > add neighbour 837ca8 address fe80::21b:b1ff:fe83:8d39 if wlan0 reach > ffef rxcost 256 txcost 992 cost 992 > [...] > add xroute 192.168.4.39/32-::/0 prefix 192.168.4.39/32 from ::/0 > metric 0 > add xroute 2001:660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128-::/0 prefix > 2001:660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128 from ::/0 metric 0 > [...] > add route 192.168.4.3/32-838ae8-::/0 prefix 192.168.4.3/32 from ::/0 > installed yes id b6:b5:2f:ff:fe:b8:35:c3 metric 96 refmetric 0 via > fe80::b6b5:2fff:feb8:35c3 if gre-rhodium > [...] > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > --001a11c2ea6af4da1305301912bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For some thoughts on information models,=C2=A0 take a look a= t RFC 3444( https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc3444).=C2=A0 That's what I did when I first started= thinking about them for I2RS.

I do believe that information models can be useful when ther= e are multiple data modeling languages necessary, as Barbara suggested.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 I am a bit leery if them otherwise,=C2=A0 because after one,=C2= =A0 there's still nothing to implement.

Regards,
Alia

On Apr 9, 2016 1:42 PM, "Juliusz Chroboczek= " <jch@pps.univ-pa= ris-diderot.fr> wrote:
Thanks again for volunteering, Barbara.

> The router in a home network that is most likely to be managed is the<= br> > ISP-provided router.=C2=A0 There are 100s of millions of those around = the
> world, and the ones that are managed are managed using BBF
> TR-069.=C2=A0 AFAIK, none are managed using netconf.

Noted.

> Therefore I recommend creating an information model that can be used t= o
> create any management protocol data model (e.g., YANG or TR-069).

Can you point us at somewhere that explains the difference between an
information model and a management protocol data model?

> With that said, I can definitely see cases where Babel may be used in<= br> > managed routers that exist inside the homenet, and where the service > provider [...] is [...] managing those routers. [...]=C2=A0 Therefore,= I do
> think it's a good idea to define the information model.

Yes.

Babeld (the reference implementation) currently has an ad-hoc monitoring and management interface that reflects the implementation's data
structures and is almost completely undocumented.=C2=A0 You can get at the<= br> monitoring data by running babeld with the "-g 33123" flag, telne= tting
to ::1 port 33123, and issuing the command "dump all".=C2=A0 I= 9;m appending an
example of the output.=C2=A0 One important subtlety is that associations ("neighour relations") are between interfaces, identified by link= -local
addresses, while routes are announced by nodes, identified by router-ids. That's a fundamental property of the protocol, that is not likely to change.

The reason the interface is undocumented is that I reserve the right to
change it at every minor version of the implementation (Babeld's versio= n
numbering is major.menor.chiquita).=C2=A0 So I hope we can manage to make i= t so
that the output of the monitoring interface maps cleanly to the information=
model (by tweaking one or the other or both).

Example Babeld's monitoring dump follows.=C2=A0 The "add" at = the beginning can
be ignored, this is followed by one of "neighbour" (association),= "xroute"
(locally redistributed route) and "route" (route learned from
a neighbour).=C2=A0 This is followed by a unique (at any given time)
identifier, and a sequence of keyword-value pairs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add neighbour 835680 address fe80::218:84ff:fe24:8055 if wlan= 0 reach ffff rxcost 256 txcost 256 cost 256
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add neighbour 837ca8 address fe80::21b:b1ff:fe83:8d39 if wlan= 0 reach ffef rxcost 256 txcost 992 cost 992
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add xroute 192.168.4.39/32-::/0 prefix 192.168.4.39/32= from ::/0 metric 0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add xroute 2001:660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128-::/0 prefix 2001= :660:3301:9202::ac17:248a/128 from ::/0 metric 0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 add route 192.168.4.3/32-838ae8-::/0 prefix 192.168= .4.3/32 from ::/0 installed yes id b6:b5:2f:ff:fe:b8:35:c3 metric 96 re= fmetric 0 via fe80::b6b5:2fff:feb8:35c3 if gre-rhodium
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
--001a11c2ea6af4da1305301912bc-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 08:17:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B98E12F03E for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id buWqHDqpMQzx for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9911612F03D for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id y204so211179198oie.3 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=5440pBYcpkIWZcln8D9ew8bkVJjgLeq7KQNXoJm09pA=; b=c4BsBWyie/vWDNM32KKIu60L1azmBnwBg+gIQxq3HeiLTZgpdz+W8JbWCzB13ncMg/ CV2SDncukhNfCXbXwZ4sg4kYOIHsF2xAvRi49kJ5RI2kXPVQfAvJ8YxnpkQbD/72G5m+ x3QhF9Ty5/ZjG7expdqLcCtZUS+fQBrXX+VDpgvlAUDlmnKE9kgqkUBarYYZduyGsDUQ 19e0cAE8NkwdS27mTtMrfsigz15fJF+Lq+zCVRkMJit/LKZTNTo1LcUp9XBdd0NdorHy 3A3B3h9BPkaidspiSaTWbcvL3hcpU6GMOKDunzofomg/ZuFTJP1v2aa7OoJdvYmmGhZs wxaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=5440pBYcpkIWZcln8D9ew8bkVJjgLeq7KQNXoJm09pA=; b=ALf7wj01lRvBrl1yOKWKbcA8t4xJP60SY0dknMrgSVL6j3UYndsd++t8YEumQCyNvk K/PU6ktFTHpZsrJAlbBORq4ER88gHYHSCMBGcK2ZcEvY7xJfq7Qziv6XeCievOrMDZmG UhnoYT9m5o6/N4G6Hd8p3K1rUsWEfnqeedDViUP86TMtcrdJ2EIEyoSh4OguUDovbUqd E5OR/lHWISs/oukRddSfwDpRW7zb/1qmu8O77dG6YjR+RpFURpPLm7LPfGds/mWwLkt2 1tQhGRLNL9vBiX15d8opR5iWiOZ9nYQhTa6pgVYCupmi5aB+0Sdnlpi5OMUL4efYWHyq SZ5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU3is3UQKCIOAVt01J/eatqyPb0f/v5ETWNe+JsunuVxqQTNpLbBHxmHud2wEns2he5sY1zT59tk/I1yw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.50.225 with SMTP id u88mr5338548otb.41.1460387831810; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426486DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426486DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:17:11 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11493b1ef3101a053037097b Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 15:17:19 -0000 --001a11493b1ef3101a053037097b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Barbara, That sounds like an excellent way forward. It sounds like we should put some text in the charter for interacting with the BBF potentially. Alia On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:08 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > > For some thoughts on information models, take a look at RFC 3444( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3444). > > That's what I did when I first started thinking about them for I2RS. > > I do believe that information models can be useful when there are > multiple data modeling languages > > necessary, as Barbara suggested. I am a bit leery of them otherwise, > because after one, there's still nothing to implement. > > Yes, that's a good RFC for understanding info vs data model. > For a tangible example, you can see what's been going on in lmap wg. > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lmap-information-model is the info > model. > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lmap-yang is the YANG data model > being created simultaneously. > And in BBF there is a TR-069 data model that is being created > simultaneously. Tim Carey has been revising the TR-069 data model with > every info model update and providing very detailed feedback into lmap (to > the info model). IMO, this has improved the info model considerably, by > having 2 distinct implementations of the info model, instead of just one. > Many issues have been raised that might not otherwise have been noticed. > > I'm quite sure a TR-069 data model would get created if IETF were to > create the info model (and we could follow a similar simultaneous process). > BBF could also share iterations of the TR-069 data model, if people thought > that would be useful. > I would leave it to others to create other data models. > > BTW, I think a Babel info model would be considerably simpler than the > lmap info model. lmap has many more moving parts. > Barbara > --001a11493b1ef3101a053037097b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barbara,

That sounds like an excellent = way forward.=C2=A0 It sounds like we should put some text in the charter fo= r interacting with the BBF
potentially.

= Alia

O= n Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:08 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
> For some= thoughts on information models,=C2=A0 take a look at RFC 3444( h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3444).=C2=A0
> That's what I did when I first started thinking about them for I2R= S.
> I do believe that information models can be useful when there are mult= iple data modeling languages
> necessary, as Barbara suggested.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I am a bit leery o= f them otherwise,=C2=A0 because after one,=C2=A0 there's still nothing = to implement.

Yes, that's a good RFC for understanding info vs data model.
For a tangible example, you can see what's been going on in lmap wg. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-= lmap-information-model is the info model.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lmap-yang= is the YANG data model being created simultaneously.
And in BBF there is a TR-069 data model that is being created simultaneousl= y. Tim Carey has been revising the TR-069 data model with every info model = update and providing very detailed feedback into lmap (to the info model). = IMO, this has improved the info model considerably, by having 2 distinct im= plementations of the info model, instead of just one. Many issues have been= raised that might not otherwise have been noticed.

I'm quite sure a TR-069 data model would get created if IETF were to cr= eate the info model (and we could follow a similar simultaneous process). B= BF could also share iterations of the TR-069 data model, if people thought = that would be useful.
I would leave it to others to create other data models.

BTW, I think a Babel info model would be considerably simpler than the lmap= info model. lmap has many more moving parts.
Barbara

--001a11493b1ef3101a053037097b-- From nobody Mon Apr 11 08:42:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A103C12E920 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQiqEh78xW2T for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6A712E910 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3BFge4b005350; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:42:40 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A445C61FA5; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:42:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id NH6O_MpTd4Y3; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:42:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B4BE61FA7; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:42:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:42:34 -0300 Message-ID: <87egacnod1.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Alia Atlas In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426486DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:42:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 570BC5F0.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 570BC5F0.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 570BC5F0.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 15:42:51 -0000 > It sounds like we should put some text in the charter for interacting > with the BBF potentially. What about leaving the charter sufficiently open to allow interaction with the BBF should it work out, but without spelling it out explicitly? -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Apr 11 09:14:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494C012F0B0 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZCnwFMdSv4v for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFD8412F0AF for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049297.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.11/8.16.0.11) with SMTP id u3BE5i7X012677; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:08:37 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 228dcag2xt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:08:37 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3BE8aW9024376; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:08:36 -0400 Received: from alpi133.aldc.att.com (alpi133.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.3]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3BE8UKP024272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:08:32 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.156]) by alpi133.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:08:26 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.171]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:08:26 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Alia Atlas , Juliusz Chroboczek Thread-Topic: [babel] Babel management info model Thread-Index: AdGRshlwpMnZ8CRjRQywi259YNJRbwA7kD8AABavuoAAP2qfsA== Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:08:26 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426486DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.199.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-11_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603180000 definitions=main-1604110206 Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:14:18 -0000 PiBGb3Igc29tZSB0aG91Z2h0cyBvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBtb2RlbHMswqAgdGFrZSBhIGxvb2sg YXQgUkZDIDM0NDQoIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9yZmMzNDQ0KS7CoCANCj4g VGhhdCdzIHdoYXQgSSBkaWQgd2hlbiBJIGZpcnN0IHN0YXJ0ZWQgdGhpbmtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhl bSBmb3IgSTJSUy4NCj4gSSBkbyBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbW9kZWxzIGNhbiBi ZSB1c2VmdWwgd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbXVsdGlwbGUgZGF0YSBtb2RlbGluZyBsYW5ndWFnZXMg DQo+IG5lY2Vzc2FyeSwgYXMgQmFyYmFyYSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQuwqDCoCBJIGFtIGEgYml0IGxlZXJ5 IG9mIHRoZW0gb3RoZXJ3aXNlLMKgIGJlY2F1c2UgYWZ0ZXIgb25lLMKgIHRoZXJlJ3Mgc3RpbGwg bm90aGluZyB0byBpbXBsZW1lbnQuDQoNClllcywgdGhhdCdzIGEgZ29vZCBSRkMgZm9yIHVuZGVy c3RhbmRpbmcgaW5mbyB2cyBkYXRhIG1vZGVsLg0KRm9yIGEgdGFuZ2libGUgZXhhbXBsZSwgeW91 IGNhbiBzZWUgd2hhdCdzIGJlZW4gZ29pbmcgb24gaW4gbG1hcCB3Zy4NCmh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMu aWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWxtYXAtaW5mb3JtYXRpb24tbW9kZWwgaXMgdGhlIGlu Zm8gbW9kZWwuDQpodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sbWFwLXlh bmcgaXMgdGhlIFlBTkcgZGF0YSBtb2RlbCBiZWluZyBjcmVhdGVkIHNpbXVsdGFuZW91c2x5Lg0K QW5kIGluIEJCRiB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIFRSLTA2OSBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIHRoYXQgaXMgYmVpbmcgY3Jl YXRlZCBzaW11bHRhbmVvdXNseS4gVGltIENhcmV5IGhhcyBiZWVuIHJldmlzaW5nIHRoZSBUUi0w NjkgZGF0YSBtb2RlbCB3aXRoIGV2ZXJ5IGluZm8gbW9kZWwgdXBkYXRlIGFuZCBwcm92aWRpbmcg dmVyeSBkZXRhaWxlZCBmZWVkYmFjayBpbnRvIGxtYXAgKHRvIHRoZSBpbmZvIG1vZGVsKS4gSU1P LCB0aGlzIGhhcyBpbXByb3ZlZCB0aGUgaW5mbyBtb2RlbCBjb25zaWRlcmFibHksIGJ5IGhhdmlu ZyAyIGRpc3RpbmN0IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBvZiB0aGUgaW5mbyBtb2RlbCwgaW5zdGVhZCBv ZiBqdXN0IG9uZS4gTWFueSBpc3N1ZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHJhaXNlZCB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IG5vdCBv dGhlcndpc2UgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG5vdGljZWQuDQoNCkknbSBxdWl0ZSBzdXJlIGEgVFItMDY5IGRh dGEgbW9kZWwgd291bGQgZ2V0IGNyZWF0ZWQgaWYgSUVURiB3ZXJlIHRvIGNyZWF0ZSB0aGUgaW5m byBtb2RlbCAoYW5kIHdlIGNvdWxkIGZvbGxvdyBhIHNpbWlsYXIgc2ltdWx0YW5lb3VzIHByb2Nl c3MpLiBCQkYgY291bGQgYWxzbyBzaGFyZSBpdGVyYXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBUUi0wNjkgZGF0YSBt b2RlbCwgaWYgcGVvcGxlIHRob3VnaHQgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB1c2VmdWwuDQpJIHdvdWxkIGxl YXZlIGl0IHRvIG90aGVycyB0byBjcmVhdGUgb3RoZXIgZGF0YSBtb2RlbHMuDQoNCkJUVywgSSB0 aGluayBhIEJhYmVsIGluZm8gbW9kZWwgd291bGQgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJhYmx5IHNpbXBsZXIgdGhh biB0aGUgbG1hcCBpbmZvIG1vZGVsLiBsbWFwIGhhcyBtYW55IG1vcmUgbW92aW5nIHBhcnRzLg0K QmFyYmFyYQ0K From nobody Mon Apr 11 10:15:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2563712F1C6 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kDlhqd2ABX4 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0984512F1C3 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A46E258280 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:15:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1460394925; bh=1C004o36Oc4uibn/0WhV7R70a1/vCMBaRMN83wgyGX4=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=ARQi6MD8SqCIq8teJ8G3jKgTYYTrdU/mEcQOKYn2ja7tGS0yfm3zNm2Da3eZ4aZH6 z5CC5M7wtFtGxsxwUtfgckifr1lR1hZWhyhVV0dzq4eQ49Ea3UX1z/AZYSJN482FGo s8IH0/TBcMmYWl2IpiHnpuX+NXCSkgHpv/G2HHec= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6B492402FB for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:15:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Babel at IETF From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <570BDBAA.3080002@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 13:15:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Meeting Minutes from IETF 95 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:15:27 -0000 The minutes are here: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-babel Many thanks for Tim for coping so well with taking the minutes. If there are any errors, let me know so we can fix them. Yours, Joel From nobody Mon Apr 11 16:02:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1083B12F58D for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NbMcdE-Ber_O for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C01312F58B for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s79so1386439oie.1 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=bvDK4lgnBfEbjVBdaP+V5czUK07im3FosA6Kp/ZkEKc=; b=TERGCp49hDeR3phNcz0h7M0iDRntNFWmonzEzrTWDlk22xnGZFv9huISsb0V2rcGff 6PvKwEM0Oz5QEvcSaby0UEvZtaOEOKonasyNjfDmsemGqxyUq7SaX2HKoiF2KkRp7qmL SfSpHVAOIlEacclNd+S05maYYToev3wJPBpmwEbFzcOJewzrD/XyiCp3X9WY5O5Yj1qV 2cxokNljDnEbgPAktFc9xMaItLneo1OXixyIU9TphzLiWVxCgmvqpzvjn0M7kebAWTgd kxGC3o34IPVBgYGhbc3wtlsuMV4MCUN7JY47LLuotHv92zI5hvrQnjmUTDkxPt392AX6 qHlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=bvDK4lgnBfEbjVBdaP+V5czUK07im3FosA6Kp/ZkEKc=; b=HXvvq/kp2Dz6XrKVWRd6tGCcuSP3FaZGNkwg9sf1JrQkUGCIprBjUns28B6X2YVvaE BDD5fhCAr1j7Iz044DnmNHuK86mkUMaEAXWtZYVsdJDBAAzjSokp6lCkMeJSJUxo5wk8 iE7iLGWrwm0THwcxt+IJEOIh3Akj8Q0eA+VX2g2mPjYKAFGj3fyKPd4izasbJf4hibAf rC1nyz8oZwQTry4TB428jdNQAXF0YhYM5oK2Yv50tdzN+ILr3LBQYldDqCuFWWLf7tSm BqVk5TD00j0SVZx+Nl/XDweI05hAYYUdDiLxn1faB6qh2xDSzIhmBnDrYSXJi4grx4Cr F+9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI70vqxBhkmcZawpEfqG7EZnYsOcAXyQiEa89LG/GS1ZvlchRNYO7cLKUmQ2nM4owDPt4xiMsD5ETCyJA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.91.8 with SMTP id p8mr9827154oib.99.1460415721487; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:02:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87egacnod1.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <8760vqsphd.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426486DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <87egacnod1.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 19:02:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d3a884dc8b705303d88a2 Archived-At: Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 23:02:04 -0000 --001a113d3a884dc8b705303d88a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek < jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > > It sounds like we should put some text in the charter for interacting > > with the BBF potentially. > > What about leaving the charter sufficiently open to allow interaction with > the BBF should it work out, but without spelling it out explicitly? Yes - something like working on an Information Model for Babel Management and coordinating with any organizations that are interested in using it as a basis for their data model and management. More word-smithing is needed. It is useful to specify the management protocols anticipated so that everyone is on the same page. Alia > -- Juliusz > --001a113d3a884dc8b705303d88a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Apr 11, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@pps.univ= -paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
<= span class=3D"">> It sounds like we should put some text in the charter = for interacting
> with the BBF potentially.

What about leaving the charter sufficiently open to allow interactio= n with
the BBF should it work out, but without spelling it out explicitly?

Yes - something like working on an Information Mod= el for Babel Management and coordinating
with any organizations t= hat are interested in using it as a basis for their data model and manageme= nt.

More word-smithing is needed.=C2=A0 It is usef= ul to specify the management protocols anticipated so
that everyo= ne is on the same page.

Alia

<= div>=C2=A0
-- Juliusz

--001a113d3a884dc8b705303d88a2-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:53:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFF512E036 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b1D3FJrW5XwN for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender163-mail.zoho.com (sender163-mail.zoho.com [74.201.84.163]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE0B012DFFB for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1460476395610100.9897294952923; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 16:53:15 +0100 From: Denis Ovsienko To: Message-ID: <1540b2d3fcd.e8eabfd457222.4744954434775413985@ovsienko.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: MEDIUM User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Archived-At: Subject: [babel] the charter X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:53:21 -0000 Hello all. My current understanding is that there are some points to be refined in the proposed charter for the working group, is there a specific to-do list for this? -- Denis Ovsienko From nobody Thu Apr 14 02:58:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D71412D0C6 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id crO_HvRiptP6 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9999E12DEFF for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C57321886 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:50:15 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org From: Nemesis Message-ID: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:50:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:58:32 -0000 Hi everyone, I joined this list in order to follow the discussion on internal data structures containing management information and NetJSON. I have been developing applications that deal with networks since 2012, but working in this field for me has always been a struggle because of the lack of a standard format, which usually has meant developing applications that only worked with firmware X and protocol Y, which is greatly bad for a number of reasons, which I briefly explain in the "Motivations" section of the NetJSON README: https://github.com/interop-dev/netjson#motivations Me and other developers are currently busy writing, improving and testing in the wild implementations of all the NetJSON objects that are defined in the spec, but we need more implementations, more feedback and faster iteration to improve the current data structures and the RFC. There's wide room for improvement, but many of us believe the time is ripe. Best regards Federico Capoano From nobody Thu Apr 14 05:39:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FB412D117 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 05:39:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUU_BlHP8flh for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 05:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 972F112D0EA for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 05:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3ECdZ22028304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:35 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u3ECdZFv020079; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:35 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F3361FAB; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id ZpVLL2LSYLF1; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 371C461FA5; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:39:29 -0300 Message-ID: <87lh4gbbzy.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Nemesis In-Reply-To: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:39:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 570F8F87.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 570F8F87.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 570F8F87.002 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 570F8F87.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 570F8F87.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 570F8F87.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:39:39 -0000 > I joined this list in order to follow the discussion on internal data > structures containing management information and NetJSON. Federico (Nemesis) is the main mover behind the NetJSON effort. I've met him in person, and he's certainly somebody one can work with. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Apr 14 09:20:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E46A12DB18 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:20:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SToTOk6yJWE for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 428B412D0E1 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.11/8.16.0.11) with SMTP id u3EGJGbC029322; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:20:27 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 22acf4frh3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:20:27 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3EGKQc0012439; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:20:26 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3EGKH1b012299 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:20:20 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.157]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:20:06 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.50]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.157]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:20:05 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Nemesis , "babel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [babel] NetJSON outreach Thread-Index: AQHRljQ5skuTTJ7aNUe6GCV9SdJ2nJ+JnrAw Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:20:05 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> In-Reply-To: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.98.119] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-14_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603180000 definitions=main-1604140230 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:20:35 -0000 > I joined this list in order to follow the discussion on internal data str= uctures > containing management information and NetJSON. > I have been developing applications that deal with networks since 2012, b= ut > working in this field for me has always been a struggle because of the la= ck of > a standard format, which usually has meant developing applications that o= nly > worked with firmware X and protocol Y, which is greatly bad for a number = of > reasons, which I briefly explain in the "Motivations" section of the NetJ= SON > README: > https://github.com/interop-dev/netjson#motivations >=20 > Me and other developers are currently busy writing, improving and testing= in > the wild implementations of all the NetJSON objects that are defined in t= he > spec, but we need more implementations, more feedback and faster > iteration to improve the current data structures and the RFC. >=20 > There's wide room for improvement, but many of us believe the time is rip= e. I looked over the stuff at the netjson website and think it's great. I've b= een thinking we need something like this for several years now and kept mea= ning to try to get something started (but always got side-tracked). I'm thr= illed to see that someone has done all this work and really like the qualit= y and readability of the spec, and high-level design choices that have been= made. I'll be looking the spec over in more detail to see if I can provide= meaningful feedback. Some additional items I'd like to explore are: - Define/register a service name (http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-= names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xml) that can be used by devi= ces wanting to advertise/discover (DNS-SD) URLs where such info is exposed = via an HTTP API.=20 - Better define processes that would allow other orgs to extend. I see the= custom members registry, but think a little more definition is needed. I'm= wondering if it might be possible to define some syntax to make it easy fo= r orgs with formal registered namespace (http://www.iana.org/assignments/ur= n-namespaces/urn-namespaces.xhtml) to extend. Or define more formal process= es.=20 From nobody Thu Apr 14 14:27:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9748F12E3FA for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTpPHqHwWRbO for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D3212E3F6 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.ninux.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7915B21886; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:17:47 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:17:47 +0200 From: nemesis To: "STARK, BARBARA H" In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Message-ID: <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> X-Sender: nemesis@ninux.org User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.4.2 Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:27:23 -0000 On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:20:05 +0000, "STARK, BARBARA H" wrote: >> I joined this list in order to follow the discussion on internal >> data structures >> containing management information and NetJSON. >> I have been developing applications that deal with networks since >> 2012, but >> working in this field for me has always been a struggle because of >> the lack of >> a standard format, which usually has meant developing applications >> that only >> worked with firmware X and protocol Y, which is greatly bad for a >> number of >> reasons, which I briefly explain in the "Motivations" section of the >> NetJSON >> README: >> https://github.com/interop-dev/netjson#motivations >> >> Me and other developers are currently busy writing, improving and >> testing in >> the wild implementations of all the NetJSON objects that are defined >> in the >> spec, but we need more implementations, more feedback and faster >> iteration to improve the current data structures and the RFC. >> >> There's wide room for improvement, but many of us believe the time >> is ripe. > > I looked over the stuff at the netjson website and think it's great. > I've been thinking we need something like this for several years now > and kept meaning to try to get something started (but always got > side-tracked). I'm thrilled to see that someone has done all this > work > and really like the quality and readability of the spec, and > high-level design choices that have been made. I'll be looking the > spec over in more detail to see if I can provide meaningful feedback. Great to hear this! > Some additional items I'd like to explore are: > - Define/register a service name > > (http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xml) > that can be used by devices wanting to advertise/discover (DNS-SD) > URLs where such info is exposed via an HTTP API. I'm not sure I understood what you mean, because NetJSON is a format and is only concerned about the text format and nothing else (Just like GeoJSON: http://geojson.org), so it doesn't use ports. Could you clarify? > - Better define processes that would allow other orgs to extend. I > see the custom members registry, but think a little more definition > is > needed. I'm wondering if it might be possible to define some syntax > to > make it easy for orgs with formal registered namespace > (http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/urn-namespaces.xhtml) > to extend. Or define more formal processes. You're right, the current registry is really just a stub. A more structured (and well documented) process is needed asap. Hopefully with more feedback and suggestions I'll be able to prepare something good enough to start. I will also have to update the current spec with the latest advancement found in the implementations and fill in the registry with the currently used extensions. The current tools we have are already allowing us to bootstrap useful applications quickly, eg: http://ninux-graph.netjson.org/topology/e384464c-d1d2-4af3-aae1-4e852a28d956/ (this app is focused on the NetworkGraph object) code is here: https://github.com/interop-dev/django-netjsongraph Federico From nobody Thu Apr 14 14:43:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804F912DD10 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wrZZT9SaEYZg for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33A5712E498 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id s79so106951905oie.1 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bcy/nKdbqXemR5FUqoyl+6wGpkJO2MdCU7D+NwSGn5k=; b=fo8PvMoEI9b2a3Waxkt19MqWqre14gQKjbKYBKb1G0WU8EGWmfpvGHwLOC5Hjr6OSQ +n7q7Y884fzOi+8RNOddRMRLovsZaMQQzz6DH4OnqKraraDXaBgI3xmLYxHy6amIv7z9 E7dBKH9hb3dbgDq/73stBY+9QOP+IwzdLw9JpCHyrHE3ov7a2hS8jHnr8K5/bihAYnog pJYWGv2sHHA4kcTM0fhH6/7JGey1kva6iobl5wYNMds08bHNr/YwhWj6lw4ICUvkk04H 99o4a47s+30o/c2cKEX7ylFnvvZyub8p81/tLrouykB6M2a3286UHhk5TafEC6gfTkgP DzeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bcy/nKdbqXemR5FUqoyl+6wGpkJO2MdCU7D+NwSGn5k=; b=IW4gkUh9jm1TaY+hhyg2KdPdRab0vN7T5bkhtO9aBZhWk+IaB4NtcJ6hSM5bY6EkN0 8iJwOjNl15yLYe7Q9Yt497nKqtx+Cq1yNot7z5wl7llIaV7TxCSSwprhRap6OrA8oPyy odxZ7SI6nXI0hqXFi+6aSIveMpsLTdR9f1UJFe3SwtBXO3JxJZj35U0FAHjNOuo6eNlz +0W1YsU29hPTCY7rKDafweBzPJ192N7MUH32Qru3XpNM775DchzjnN8fkaUogNm2lz/+ EkvVxO+a+orCyHasy6bIvBslMUzLSHZA80V7V83TQOAUy6tmsOfHZ4/Y9hZAU82Wa364 PBtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWU4QGvkX7+bji63IEORLohE52bi6Ob1oTLeGKoq6y9+UtaIHamJybItj83UmXKgUgEGv1J6G0Tp1Z7YQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.5.106 with SMTP id 97mr8460266otw.127.1460670218464; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.79.194 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:38 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: nemesis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:43:51 -0000 > The current tools we have are already allowing us to bootstrap useful > applications quickly, eg: > http://ninux-graph.netjson.org/topology/e384464c-d1d2-4af3-aae1-4e852a28d= 956/ > (this app is focused on the NetworkGraph object) > > code is here: https://github.com/interop-dev/django-netjsongraph That is a truly stunning demo. *I need this*. My testbeds have got so complex that I can no longer find anything nor figure out where it is or what it is connected to. > Federico > > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From nobody Thu Apr 14 15:30:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3F512DE13 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:30:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wWCu-Binjep5 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13C8212DDD8 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.11/8.16.0.11) with SMTP id u3EMTQxg008442; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:30:30 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 22akbfs696-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:30:29 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3EMUQlh017800; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:30:28 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3EMUJRr017726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:30:24 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.152]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:30:05 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.50]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:30:05 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: nemesis Thread-Topic: [babel] NetJSON outreach Thread-Index: AQHRljQ5skuTTJ7aNUe6GCV9SdJ2nJ+JnrAwgACeJID//8s+EA== Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:30:04 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426559DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> In-Reply-To: <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.72.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-14_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603290000 definitions=main-1604140309 Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:30:36 -0000 PiA+IFNvbWUgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBpdGVtcyBJJ2QgbGlrZSB0byBleHBsb3JlIGFyZToNCj4gPiAg LSBEZWZpbmUvcmVnaXN0ZXIgYSBzZXJ2aWNlIG5hbWUNCj4gPg0KPiA+IChodHRwOi8vd3d3Lmlh bmEub3JnL2Fzc2lnbm1lbnRzL3NlcnZpY2UtbmFtZXMtcG9ydC1udW1iZXJzL3NlcnZpY2UtDQo+ IG5hDQo+ID4gbWVzLXBvcnQtbnVtYmVycy54bWwpIHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgYnkgZGV2aWNl cyB3YW50aW5nIHRvDQo+ID4gYWR2ZXJ0aXNlL2Rpc2NvdmVyIChETlMtU0QpIFVSTHMgd2hlcmUg c3VjaCBpbmZvIGlzIGV4cG9zZWQgdmlhIGFuDQo+ID4gSFRUUCBBUEkuDQo+IA0KPiAgSSdtIG5v dCBzdXJlIEkgdW5kZXJzdG9vZCB3aGF0IHlvdSBtZWFuLCBiZWNhdXNlIE5ldEpTT04gaXMgYSBm b3JtYXQgIGFuZA0KPiBpcyBvbmx5IGNvbmNlcm5lZCBhYm91dCB0aGUgdGV4dCBmb3JtYXQgYW5k IG5vdGhpbmcgZWxzZSAoSnVzdCBsaWtlDQo+ICBHZW9KU09OOiBodHRwOi8vZ2VvanNvbi5vcmcp LCBzbyBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IHVzZSBwb3J0cy4gQ291bGQgeW91ICBjbGFyaWZ5Pw0KDQpUaGF0IElB TkEgcmVnaXN0cnkgaXMgYSBtdWx0aS1wdXJwb3NlIGxpc3QuIEluIGFkZGl0aW9uIHRvIGJlaW5n IGhvbWUgdG8gYWxsIHRoZSB0cmFkaXRpb25hbCBzZXJ2aWNlL3BvcnQgbnVtYmVyIGFzc2lnbm1l bnRzLCBpdCBhbHNvIGhhcyB0aGUgRE5TLVNEIHNlcnZpY2UgbmFtZSBhc3NpZ25tZW50cy4gRm9y IGV4YW1wbGUsIGxvb2sgYXQgdGhlIGVudHJ5IGZvciB4dWwtaHR0cC4gU2Nyb2xsIHRvIHRoZSBm YXIgcmlnaHQgb2YgdGhhdCBlbnRyeSBhbmQgcmVhZCB0aGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24uIA0KDQpUaGUg aWRlYSBpcyB0aGF0IGEgZGV2aWNlIGluc2lkZSB0aGUgTEFOIGNvdWxkIHNlbmQgYSBtdWx0aWNh c3QgRE5TIChtRE5TKSBxdWVyeSAoZS5nLiwgbUROUyBxdWVyeSBmb3IgX25ldGpzb24uX3RjcC5s b2NhbC4pIHRvIGRpc2NvdmVyIGRldmljZXMgd2l0aCBOZXRKU09OLWZvcm1hdHRlZCBpbmZvIGV4 cG9zZWQgYnkgYSBIVFRQIEFQSS4gQSByb3V0ZXIgaW5zaWRlIHRoZSBMQU4gdGhhdCBpcyBleHBv c2luZyBOZXRKU09OIGluZm8gYnkgYSBIVFRQIEFQSSB3b3VsZCByZXNwb25kIHRvIHN1Y2ggYSBt RE5TIHF1ZXJ5IHdpdGggdGhlIEROUyBTUlYgKyBUWFQgcmVjb3JkcyB0aGF0IHN1cHBseSB0aGUg VVJMIG9mIHRoZSBpbmZvLiBUaGlzIGhhcyBub3RoaW5nIGRpcmVjdGx5IHRvIGRvIHdpdGggTmV0 SlNPTiBvciB0aGUgZm9ybWF0dGluZy4gSXQncyBhYm91dCBhdXRvbWF0aW5nIGFkdmVydGlzZW1l bnQgYW5kIGRpc2NvdmVyeSwganVzdCBsaWtlIHByaW50ZXJzIGdldCBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkIHRvZGF5 LiANCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIHdvdWxkIGJlIGFzIHNpbXBsZSBhcyBnZXR0aW5nICJuZXRqc29u IiBpbmNsdWRlZCBpbiB0aGlzIElBTkEgcmVnaXN0cnkgcGVyIFJGQyA2MzM1LiBTZWUgU2VjdGlv biA1LjIgb2YgdGhhdCBSRkMgZm9yIHNwZWNpYWwgRE5TLVNEIGluc3RydWN0aW9ucy4NCkJhcmJh cmEgDQo= From nobody Thu Apr 14 22:52:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558E712D973 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id klZbALjTe_NI for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C14212D8DB for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id g184so133426266lfb.3 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:52:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xk22D50s1NPj/0/z77PugBp2UXKhS7loARtHMOvG+4w=; b=qyV8Ydk7UNe4nClnU4xDRtYFsC8O0sPfzrT+F1KGkY0gwWR4uagVoAMoTeC+rKHmjl Z4CamD6TRAODLB0+m5vRunbm4zzczeOqIx3DCFLmM92KDZj8vgfaxxCglsbFzwfjYiOY CTHdFzxMAByxnd+d706CgACHdLGfBU2xSHA/lpdTmZUVy/FhLcTCxk1kmjlttUlrrsRg pMSbxvy72y8mDaUuMyVXr3HYxDrvyCbtw3ibgWTqeg7ixEznvV+L4r/7tZPuSj7v0VcX lUbqj2eSgBXLrR/GNPHUzl1Ju/a1N9YMkxsH9FIbElrk1/UPmXJHCZlOkCkB66S1gvXG jQxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xk22D50s1NPj/0/z77PugBp2UXKhS7loARtHMOvG+4w=; b=cZZhY4rmYvZzGKGFfx/zGs3BDv5JOHKza7qrP1DlzdTEaO8m7Hlw8DPlclwviES3rL 0YYDS22HC6m1vvCZjK2nb3vtRB5UFHcYKDtIlK74w/E7qCx3fwHEVMQcKsLoy9N9OuZm ADxX/WxdPvxagY7n09HLbKSKJV0w/mGQPp4SNkULMkBCEQSvmqG/5XcTY6+qAKL7eEoR PbwsOXXCTYFPTUYN//R3CaStpBHPPhlzVkCkI0FSEF7tJ/Iuxy0tBG7iM8UEYZHh66WJ Jb7lkNRPYBY7gzVgMM36K3v26TfwkPgxixx/JYwuPDNBfHBweSq3S2+l2e95QJ4an2qJ YxWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUEsuzkvarXsThI9cBg86C9ZB/dMS5RUvugpJbSzA6i0CiZE1Jm6W/tOg8o+eUOouvBibo5jx2lbLpe9A== X-Received: by 10.112.84.105 with SMTP id x9mr8553597lby.23.1460699548737; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:52:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.21.30 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:51:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:51:59 +0200 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: nemesis , babel@ietf.org, "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:52:32 -0000 On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 11:43 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> The current tools we have are already allowing us to bootstrap useful >> applications quickly, eg: >> http://ninux-graph.netjson.org/topology/e384464c-d1d2-4af3-aae1-4e852a28d956/ >> (this app is focused on the NetworkGraph object) >> >> code is here: https://github.com/interop-dev/django-netjsongraph > > That is a truly stunning demo. *I need this*. My testbeds have got so > complex that I can no longer find anything nor figure out where it is > or what it is connected to. There is also a very simple example in the OONF (olsrd2) repository: http://olsr.org/git/?p=oonf.git;a=tree;f=files/netjson_viewer;h=6afd72509dac4ea0d9fe357b65e8ccaf1dd89e9e;hb=HEAD You can hack together a viewer for NetJSON in a few hours... which proves the format is really nice to work with. Henning From nobody Fri Apr 15 02:17:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524D912DFC3 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AnFpfjdzPwj8 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A77C12D584 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 62B27219DD; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:16:55 +0000 (UTC) To: Dave Taht References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:16:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:17:02 -0000 On 04/14/2016 11:43 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> The current tools we have are already allowing us to bootstrap useful >> applications quickly, eg: >> http://ninux-graph.netjson.org/topology/e384464c-d1d2-4af3-aae1-4e852a28d956/ >> (this app is focused on the NetworkGraph object) >> >> code is here: https://github.com/interop-dev/django-netjsongraph > > That is a truly stunning demo. *I need this*. My testbeds have got so > complex that I can no longer find anything nor figure out where it is > or what it is connected to. Glad to know you find it stunning. I find it quite limited but surely the best I could do in my free time. Think about it: this is just one of the first and simplest implementations, imagine what we can do with more experienced people and better/more advanced implementations. Federico From nobody Fri Apr 15 03:03:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84DF12DBB3 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:03:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6SoxJHySsWrV for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B68512DB3C for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C15C21A0D for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:03:26 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426559DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <5710BC6E.4090205@ninux.org> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:03:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426559DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:03:30 -0000 On 04/15/2016 12:30 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >>> Some additional items I'd like to explore are: >>> - Define/register a service name >>> >>> (http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service- >> na >>> mes-port-numbers.xml) that can be used by devices wanting to >>> advertise/discover (DNS-SD) URLs where such info is exposed via an >>> HTTP API. >> >> I'm not sure I understood what you mean, because NetJSON is a format and >> is only concerned about the text format and nothing else (Just like >> GeoJSON: http://geojson.org), so it doesn't use ports. Could you clarify? > > That IANA registry is a multi-purpose list. In addition to being home to all the traditional service/port number assignments, it also has the DNS-SD service name assignments. For example, look at the entry for xul-http. Scroll to the far right of that entry and read the description. Are you referring to: "Defined TXT keys: u= p= path= (Same as for _http._tcp)" > The idea is that a device inside the LAN could send a multicast DNS (mDNS) query (e.g., mDNS query for _netjson._tcp.local.) to discover devices with NetJSON-formatted info exposed by a HTTP API. A router inside the LAN that is exposing NetJSON info by a HTTP API would respond to such a mDNS query with the DNS SRV + TXT records that supply the URL of the info. This has nothing directly to do with NetJSON or the formatting. It's about automating advertisement and discovery, just like printers get discovered today. In relation to "u= p= path=", does it mean sending a TCP packet to that specific port with those parameters will return the requested information? > I think this would be as simple as getting "netjson" included in this IANA registry per RFC 6335. See Section 5.2 of that RFC for special DNS-SD instructions. This would open up many interesting possibilities! Probably a generic mechanism to specify the protocol used would be necessary: it's common to send NetJSON via HTTP, telnet and websocket. I converted RFC 6335 to epub (I wish tools.ietf.org was able to do this automatically!) and loaded into my e-reader, I need to read the entire RFC in order to familiarize more with this concept. Thank you Barbara! Federico From nobody Fri Apr 15 03:37:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A405212E671 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:37:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3HCgs67_rpDb for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A84A912E645 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id a140so25268616wma.0 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tf87qKawY9xz2AImxdWNDzKxlH46zSa65QxuimKZsEw=; b=OOEP4bw69a4rVwH7OYDwvthRcqA872MlPeRSyhI8H9lZPMw2K02HmgR5zUbcdmV8Un J1i6qV/Hc9cLXj1qYba7G+hzYfVn1Nxlmdg8+weVEGaXP4y3paVoDINPJfUb3HGVvt3p 3Co22j8EBmJuRfJkAg3XlMm6mk30R+ezvYweAj3jvRzDBA+4tUPgmvA177GTZjqfupSk 4SgwmTEbLXpOsLq1ra5UfGz9F3ylBR7axrb3XWjdN0KjZK5KdL2UcBz8Irl0IJ14sG+f ZgdJEh88VnjnJE8CTZDhhfbYFj5en3YB8TDwlbSeiuROh7y9FYb39RWAA8H8GEJsK1jh a6QA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tf87qKawY9xz2AImxdWNDzKxlH46zSa65QxuimKZsEw=; b=cDG4JNV5Ec8Gx7EAF9S/iuXROtrGQ7aNBgMSiIeLM7daroYZhILnOaKNoM7IW3qvZX YyEzk92GUwFxJC8ad07j8SvCzWjMLlT231RtK8zKAGmLs3JF1d3aa5L1yCyXGHk1OAnL OknOk7bjlH3VZPi07nI2Bb4ctQ9XbZD7f2eR1r+FOPwnsSDkEIA7TjGm2LUqALVA6nCS a1BZXG4wc0FOUAwCjKjv72YWbyerGJeWrTGKaA86coKYqct/6rlg2r8ytfhAjx/Aaccg u++KRdLQ+4FOkVSfRUP0I1fJC+AKBRd9iTFQTyWZXjQGTyKVP3Fbgylr9xv//zoBnEUv Npjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXbh9/Wq03O1lMegUTGnxWJDfqt+5mZ0Qh8Z9u9LXHjDADSuA2ri9KE7sI5Fy+z4SGhxU0kB4IyYyFI3QCa X-Received: by 10.28.48.69 with SMTP id w66mr3435957wmw.51.1460716658077; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:37:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.2.19 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:36:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5710BC6E.4090205@ninux.org> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426559DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <5710BC6E.4090205@ninux.org> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:36:58 +0200 Message-ID: To: Nemesis Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142279886265b05308399db Archived-At: Cc: Babel at IETF Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:37:42 -0000 --001a1142279886265b05308399db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Nemesis wrote: > I converted RFC 6335 to epub (I wish tools.ietf.org was able to do this > automatically!) >From https://tools.ietf.org/: Downloading RFCs & I-Ds eBooks > There is weekly generated ebooks in .epub and .mobi (kindle) format for > RFCs and Internet-Drafts. The rfc.mobi and rfc.epub files contains all > RFCs in one big file. For I-Ds there is files for each separate working > group (i-d.*) and one file per area containing all WGs in the area > (area.*). In addition to the active WG drafts those files also contain the > published RFCs and related I-Ds. You can find them here: https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ Best, Gabriel --001a1142279886265b05308399db Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Apr 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Nemesis <nemesis@ninux.org> wrote:
I converted RFC 6335 to epub (I wish tools.ietf.org was able to do this
automatically!)


Downloading RFCs & I-Ds eBooks
There is weekly generated ebooks= in .epub and .mobi (kindle) format for RFCs and Internet-Drafts. The rfc.mobi and rfc.epub files contains all RFCs in= one big file. For I-Ds there is files for each separate working group (i-d= .*) and one file per area containing all WGs in the area (area.*). In addit= ion to the active WG drafts those files also contain the published RFCs and= related I-Ds.=C2=A0

You can find them here= : https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/

=
--001a1142279886265b05308399db-- From mailings@hupie.com Fri Apr 15 04:28:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A215F12DE25 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mgAQn-9mYEsD for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hupie.dyndns.org (hupie.dyndns.org [80.101.237.101]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3EF12D144 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stinkpad.internal.hupie.com (hupie.dyndns.org [80.101.237.101]) by hupie.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BF6480B13 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:28:40 +0200 (CEST) To: babel@ietf.org From: Ferry Huberts Message-ID: <5710D068.9050506@hupie.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:28:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [babel] NetJSON & Hi X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:29:41 -0000 Hi! I joined this list to join in the NetJSON discussion. Why would I want to join this discussion? Well, because I am the olsrd v1 maintainer and I just pushed NetJSON support into olsrd v1 :-) I am in contact with Federico and Henning and we're planning to discuss the NetJSON draft at the Wireless BattleMesh conference in Porto with anyone that is interested, to hopefully improve the RFC a bit, if possible. -- Ferry Huberts From nobody Fri Apr 15 05:49:31 2016 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBE412D0BF for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-kIFmC0YPyO for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x231.google.com (mail-yw0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C1CF12B03D for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x231.google.com with SMTP id o66so134863724ywc.3 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Hmh8B/wtH0/oF/UvIttojyqiOEqZQasEXoROb22khj8=; b=VSLDyS8zS/FbhQZuRgQCEzxewkyVVEnU36M8L65YrguwRo2kV8r1dkuy+jzZY7tduA rgZrrZqZR7tLTG9E8TZbSpBIWhDc84HzjE6KsZK78ksQ7NfeuVqu2UKfzxiK57zvEAYe ZlcdqPkskK72FJtT44qPZS7xgypejGWdkGIG8oyzjevJX3Qi/MzHdG6S9Mp8OPwrRqyy LtcTGui1mvlUsbYlxH/k23BQbC8Lq7w5jRy4rQUe3qx+N2klywxdsmGTKrx/z7hR2Ldc si824ufL/4euOZ41Uc4fUe/nH4Qrx1BW/zY01F/dPl2fMjEzRinnYH+Ec3OyE3yUxbCv E3Tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Hmh8B/wtH0/oF/UvIttojyqiOEqZQasEXoROb22khj8=; b=SCLS8qx50nk7D1eU8cK4mwiJHtM/FOmxFzOLXndaOthmvL4KLKUcLrl58/+JW20vaj /fb9HPJBWnAs7q0b0Vv3tH9Cpgf9ahwveMgCNrzY2lbpb1tlI1QGQXU061Euiej8xvHQ BdoxyvN9Hde+3n04Uf1YjW+unHYt1x2/hYHf2yOICdK7yGUc/tNU5RDxkHKvxXZLWFHq pTrPifSpbZsxYU2zpkrWNjsXRf7e5GtVR2LdDA7PKWYKEGjiChEs7jP8QTzwb0Botp14 sgjZMItaVBfwsKQ9EH0YOrLiSFKKgB6/Z0rfQbPlarSl0F9T/iJhB/onxD8LNsKjKVQs he/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWcrFYAqBTkXvDv7wU3WCPntOMnvCByOZbZ8py2RW02G4n9xyDyJaP9S6kLMIJWhg== X-Received: by 10.37.204.86 with SMTP id l83mr11738468ybf.164.1460724568327; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ ([216.155.129.35]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x136sm26665726ywd.15.2016.04.15.05.49.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Dave Taht'" , "'STARK, BARBARA H'" References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645DA8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E61142645EAF@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 08:49:26 -0400 Message-ID: <022001d19715$3ea73d30$bbf5b790$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJ6x2YqREWq45YBXdCOg6T9uKEM2wHQcX1GArKo6L4BnejhvJ4HklYw Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] Babel management info model X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:49:30 -0000 > I get it. Yes, this is an area where much work is needed. TR-69 however > seems like an example of how not to do it, but perhaps it too could be > improved. Is there work within the ietf on it? Or is the trend > netconf/yang/etc? The trend is definitely yang over Netconf/restconf -- it would be good if we could settle a direction here early on, and use the collaboration between open source and open standards to map out a useful direction for other projects to follow. > Is snmp (for statistics) beyond hope? My impression had been that most of > the problems were from old versions of common snmp daemons being > widely deployed, un-updated, and insecured in the field. The IETF, at large, has said "no more snmp..." I think the main point is the difficult nature of working with around snmp, rather than security specifically. XML based models are more flexible and useable, which means they have more hope for widespread implementation across many different devices. What we don't want to get into is, "we have this for home routers, that for the upstream headend, and this thing over there for laptops, and that one over there for televisions." I suspect we're going to end up there anyway (it's the nature of the beast -- closed management interfaces are just part of the competitive landscape any longer), but I'd like to avoid it where possible, if possible... :-) Russ From nobody Fri Apr 15 06:49:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCF012E6FB for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K_hTexgq_5eD for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799B712DE90 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3FDnjAU002228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u3FDniiq020322; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C215B61FA5; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id EOZcc4qb1TQw; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 600BF61FA7; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:49:38 -0300 Message-ID: <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Nemesis In-Reply-To: <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5710F179.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5710F178.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5710F179.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5710F178.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5710F179.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5710F178.002 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: [babel] OT: NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:49:49 -0000 > Glad to know you find [the demo] stunning. I find it quite limited but > surely the best I could do in my free time. This is getting off-topic for this list, perhaps Russ or Donald can tell us whether it is okay to continue this discussion here. Federico, I think that the deadline for Google Summer of Code is not over yet, do you think you could mentor a student on a NetJSON projet? I'd be willing to co-mentor with you (but you get full credit), and I might be able to find you a suitable student. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Apr 15 06:55:10 2016 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCB312D178 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TA9xtNEq9pv4 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com (mail-yw0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1A4212D0AC for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t10so136997773ywa.0 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=taG3I4f9HPD/XcXROq+LKU0fIgUyOXh1jhSULtVr72A=; b=FlO58w+PoOMHiHjJKJNK4Kox6wkvMwpL0hf7OaNhKD25JB9iDiUuxqMaW5cy4MQK0w vLut+iA/uQoggmjXvrre67RoUp0pTsQL1L3tWLbNdvbmQBilYsr3ETTzbQYBAmtdR29A gaRfDkLuxpHcrO3ZkJjLip5r6z42+LU/OyhMQWnEDmuj//L4AKCLGPGYS4YUb9DGNjoS nOaiDhVMRLiVWxAnRFE0FGBb+m85akIDhmB7P4FzIRCuPLNc8WIBvjcBjXDg/eF169oK rH6z+O/0kIozn6nhyJ55nsfqzd815KZsXQ9wpNbbr1/SDYtZOUOXaAwlI4k94irQC36j 7gkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=taG3I4f9HPD/XcXROq+LKU0fIgUyOXh1jhSULtVr72A=; b=HqikprvbDd5qQw2y1FcnATNuOhCE0ecf56lpDg+N5NRXspBhM6gx3EQzhfobIRsuKp V/JCd4n3v55pe/K4W3yAGlwGmbfT9De4s+8WVmGgehgHkh+e6nf4PxZ0ZX6F/8hvCXc4 VW8OOC0yUb4PgeVbgUoQDBOaM6Qgnez9eXmEXv1vfUXh2iZ8CHDeF110A69X09XWKBFi uSvTojbL6F0l3I+CNIubsCSKNH/cVFHA6acuh2ncwojqkoRQ6gPV5AnKyJ4AxAJcrI0t gPFCba/oXIrZJ4oYBnN6tr/KmcpVRCASXg3LfNP+8HOjZzgbpXTxL0oU8lTFhpjdcmES LGZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FV+2c0rU9tyf5mYCBfBIBdO9HhLyOyMNWRDumrl0RR4NoaZX7QRoNUopSiYHhyuIw== X-Received: by 10.129.160.137 with SMTP id x131mr2261426ywg.130.1460728506272; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (162-229-180-77.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net. [162.229.180.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a81sm26800271ywe.30.2016.04.15.06.55.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:55:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Nemesis'" References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:55:04 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01d1971e$69ce0ee0$3d6a2ca0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQEMjZ9XJcMKUjvFp/mtMBAekyjBIAHx+E88AVdw/DACCOlFKgGsWD9dAncnz2igyXLfAA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] OT: NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:55:08 -0000 > > Glad to know you find [the demo] stunning. I find it quite limited but > > surely the best I could do in my free time. > > This is getting off-topic for this list, perhaps Russ or Donald can tell us > whether it is okay to continue this discussion here. Seems fine to me... Can you send me a pointer to the demo again? It seems to be lost in the mists of time. :-) Russ From nobody Fri Apr 15 07:33:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C5312E550 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ec5EyYd2qQSV for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 574D612E4BE for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3FEWunR028750; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:32:56 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD0761F9A; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:32:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id z4d3SA3PdJ5X; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [190.188.106.173]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7085361FAD; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:32:49 -0300 Message-ID: <878u0fvt66.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <008e01d1971e$69ce0ee0$3d6a2ca0$@gmail.com> References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <008e01d1971e$69ce0ee0$3d6a2ca0$@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:32:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5710FB98.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5710FB98.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5710FB98.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] OT: NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:33:00 -0000 > Seems fine to me... Cool, glad to hear that. > Can you send me a pointer to the demo again? It seems to be lost in the > mists of time. Four messages up, Nemesis wrote: > The current tools we have are already allowing us to bootstrap useful > applications quickly, eg: > http://ninux-graph.netjson.org/topology/e384464c-d1d2-4af3-aae1-4e852a28d956/ > (this app is focused on the NetworkGraph object) > code is here: https://github.com/interop-dev/django-netjsongraph -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Apr 15 09:10:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AC112D75F for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:10:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VF3e9OSiyI_X for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D47112D7A8 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 902EA2A45E5 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:10:51 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426559DC@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <5710BC6E.4090205@ninux.org> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <5711128B.9030804@ninux.org> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:10:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:10:56 -0000 On 04/15/2016 12:36 PM, Gabriel Kerneis wrote: > On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Nemesis > wrote: > > I converted RFC 6335 to epub (I wish tools.ietf.org > was able to do this > automatically!) > > > From https://tools.ietf.org/: > > Downloading RFCs & I-Ds eBooks > There is weekly generated ebooks in .epub and .mobi (kindle) format > for RFCs and Internet-Drafts. The rfc.mobi and > rfc.epub files contains all RFCs in one big file. For I-Ds there is > files for each separate working group (i-d.*) and one file per area > containing all WGs in the area (area.*). In addition to the active > WG drafts those files also contain the published RFCs and related I-Ds. > > > You can find them here: https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/ Thanks, I didn't know that, I hope it will be possible to download specific (single) RFC also in the near future. Federico From nobody Fri Apr 15 09:35:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D79E12DAA5 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iM4BDRK7DkX for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551D012DC26 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1D2A2A45E7 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:35:47 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org References: <570F67D7.8060408@ninux.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114265521D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <2fa623e455b29ea6e4bcb94ad5d02e04@ninux.org> <5710B186.50702@ninux.org> <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <57111863.6020508@ninux.org> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:35:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87a8kvvv65.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] OT: NetJSON outreach X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:35:50 -0000 On 04/15/2016 03:49 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> Glad to know you find [the demo] stunning. I find it quite limited but >> surely the best I could do in my free time. > [...] > > Federico, I think that the deadline for Google Summer of Code is not over > yet, do you think you could mentor a student on a NetJSON projet? I'd be > willing to co-mentor with you (but you get full credit), and I might be > able to find you a suitable student. Unfortunately the GSoC proposal submission deadline has passed, but I'm very happy to hear you'd be available for co-mentoring such an effort. I have these ideas in my mind: - prepare for the next GSoC, 1 year goes incredibly fast! - try to see if there are opportunities for funding in EU projects like NetCommons [1] or any other similar project - look for other funding opportunities, eg: prpl foundation, university grants [1]: http://netcommons.eu/ Federico From nobody Mon Apr 18 04:36:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C713E12D8B3 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 04:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSRdbNNmJspY for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 04:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C03C912DA7B for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 04:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049297.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.11/8.16.0.11) with SMTP id u3IBSsDE037605; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:36:56 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 22cwnd1gsv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:36:56 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3IBatT1020659; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:36:55 -0400 Received: from alpi133.aldc.att.com (alpi133.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.3]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3IBakMr020562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:36:49 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAB.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.151]) by alpi133.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:36:26 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.50]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.151]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:36:26 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Nemesis , "babel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: NetJSON DNS-SD service name Thread-Index: AdGZZohLHqW98S/8QD6EnP8rArh1bw== Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:36:26 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426589A9@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.104.232] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-04-18_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1603290000 definitions=main-1604180145 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] NetJSON DNS-SD service name X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:36:58 -0000 Changed the subject header to differentiate this thread. > > That IANA registry is a multi-purpose list. In addition to being home t= o all > the traditional service/port number assignments, it also has the DNS-SD > service name assignments. For example, look at the entry for xul-http. Sc= roll > to the far right of that entry and read the description. >=20 > Are you referring to: >=20 > "Defined TXT keys: u=3D p=3D path=3D document> (Same as for _http._tcp)" >=20 > > The idea is that a device inside the LAN could send a multicast DNS (mD= NS) > query (e.g., mDNS query for _netjson._tcp.local.) to discover devices wit= h > NetJSON-formatted info exposed by a HTTP API. A router inside the LAN tha= t > is exposing NetJSON info by a HTTP API would respond to such a mDNS query > with the DNS SRV + TXT records that supply the URL of the info. This has > nothing directly to do with NetJSON or the formatting. It's about automat= ing > advertisement and discovery, just like printers get discovered today. >=20 > In relation to "u=3D p=3D path=3D", > does it mean sending a TCP packet to that specific port with those > parameters will return the requested information? Sort of. Except there is no port number defined, and it's not just TCP; it'= s specifically HTTP/TCP. Client HTTP stack determines which destination por= t is used in the TCP header (port 80), with the expectation that the HTTP s= erver is listening on port 80. > > I think this would be as simple as getting "netjson" included in this I= ANA > registry per RFC 6335. See Section 5.2 of that RFC for special DNS-SD > instructions. >=20 > This would open up many interesting possibilities! >=20 > Probably a generic mechanism to specify the protocol used would be > necessary: it's common to send NetJSON via HTTP, telnet and websocket. This would specify a standardized mechanism for providing NetJSON data, but= wouldn't mandate it or preclude others. It may be that this mechanism woul= d be mandated in certain contexts. For example, IETF homenet might choose t= o mandate it in the context of a homenet architecture, or Broadband Forum m= ight choose to mandate it in the context of ISP-provided residential gatewa= ys. But that would be external to defining the actual mechanism. Barbara From nobody Tue Apr 19 09:29:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC7C12D0B0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id svkiBXhmc3Bt for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C61612EA7E for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0C2A2190B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:29:11 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426589A9@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <57165CD7.1020708@ninux.org> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:29:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611426589A9@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON DNS-SD service name X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:29:23 -0000 On 04/18/2016 01:36 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > Changed the subject header to differentiate this thread. > >>> That IANA registry is a multi-purpose list. In addition to being home to all >> the traditional service/port number assignments, it also has the DNS-SD >> service name assignments. For example, look at the entry for xul-http. Scroll >> to the far right of that entry and read the description. >> >> Are you referring to: >> >> "Defined TXT keys: u= p= path=> document> (Same as for _http._tcp)" >> >>> The idea is that a device inside the LAN could send a multicast DNS (mDNS) >> query (e.g., mDNS query for _netjson._tcp.local.) to discover devices with >> NetJSON-formatted info exposed by a HTTP API. A router inside the LAN that >> is exposing NetJSON info by a HTTP API would respond to such a mDNS query >> with the DNS SRV + TXT records that supply the URL of the info. This has >> nothing directly to do with NetJSON or the formatting. It's about automating >> advertisement and discovery, just like printers get discovered today. >> >> In relation to "u= p= path=", >> does it mean sending a TCP packet to that specific port with those >> parameters will return the requested information? > > Sort of. Except there is no port number defined, and it's not just TCP; it's specifically HTTP/TCP. Client HTTP stack determines which destination port is used in the TCP header (port 80), with the expectation that the HTTP server is listening on port 80. Ok thanks. >>> I think this would be as simple as getting "netjson" included in this IANA >> registry per RFC 6335. See Section 5.2 of that RFC for special DNS-SD >> instructions. >> >> This would open up many interesting possibilities! >> >> Probably a generic mechanism to specify the protocol used would be >> necessary: it's common to send NetJSON via HTTP, telnet and websocket. > > This would specify a standardized mechanism for providing NetJSON data, but wouldn't mandate it or preclude others. It may be that this mechanism would be mandated in certain contexts. For example, IETF homenet might choose to mandate it in the context of a homenet architecture, or Broadband Forum might choose to mandate it in the context of ISP-provided residential gateways. But that would be external to defining the actual mechanism. It sounds like the right thing to do. There's a crucial question I have for you, Barbara: when do you think it's the right time to start this process? After draft 0 is published to the IETF? Before? On subsequent drafts (like draft 1 or 2)? Thank you for your feedback Federico From nobody Tue Apr 19 09:31:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6918112E60E for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bd08OmqvOs9s for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ninux.org (mail.ninux.org [176.62.53.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E92912E581 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.2.68] (unknown [193.205.218.176]) (Authenticated sender: nemesis) by mail.ninux.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B48582190B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:31:09 +0000 (UTC) To: babel@ietf.org References: <5710D068.9050506@hupie.com> From: Nemesis Message-ID: <57165D4D.8060006@ninux.org> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:31:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5710D068.9050506@hupie.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] NetJSON & Hi X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:31:11 -0000 On 04/15/2016 01:28 PM, Ferry Huberts wrote: > Hi! > > I joined this list to join in the NetJSON discussion. > > Why would I want to join this discussion? > Well, because I am the olsrd v1 maintainer and I just pushed NetJSON > support into olsrd v1 :-) > > > I am in contact with Federico and Henning and we're planning to discuss > the NetJSON draft at the Wireless BattleMesh conference in Porto with > anyone that is interested, to hopefully improve the RFC a bit, if possible. I got a call from a ninux friend who has a talk slot at the battlemesh assigned but no talk ready, so we could even ask to take his slot, but this makes sense only if we have more people interested. Is anyone here going to attend the battlemesh in Porto between 1st and 6th of May? Federico From nobody Fri Apr 29 16:23:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFF512D1CB for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HM-cpFJ94PkB for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.tohojo.dk (mail2.tohojo.dk [77.235.48.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7813712D18A for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:23:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail2.tohojo.dk DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=201310; t=1461972205; bh=3VGktm4f6IvV0QmQP/3+r1RHQ2HIt8oKGTED3oAb5h8=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To; b=SCWRA14xnaJd9Wsqhk7ohMFETb5PT1soayOA2gVHSyK1xHTDeL34vReNKfijfo/Mw qX5ULcQYvMvxMGFdlaPo+lgzV2S0AoKriVm3wIGFT2JSoYfeHzmZF7149d78txeo+J KwHyK/aFCzwvDQw8h/Bjtg4Bz3qDZCzMO2VEcnyw= Sender: toke@toke.dk In-Reply-To: <85ba0983-cd51-955d-6186-c0726fd82309@network.cz> References: <85ba0983-cd51-955d-6186-c0726fd82309@network.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Toke_H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 01:23:22 +0200 To: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org,babel@ietf.org X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <201806F7-2CF3-483C-A05A-D7F0C3C86FDD@toke.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Fwd: Version 1.6.0 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:23:30 -0000 Version 1.6 of the Bird routing daemon was just released and includes my = Babel implementation :) -Toke -------- Original Message -------- From: Ondrej Filip Sent: 29 April 2016 18:35:33 CEST To: bird Subject: Version 1.6.0 Dear Bird users, the long expected version is out: Version 1.6.0 (2016-04-29) o Major RIP protocol redesign o New Babel routing protocol o BGP multipath support o KRT: Add support for plenty of kernel route metrics o KRT: Allow more than 256 routing tables o Static: Allow to specify attributes for static routes o Static: Support for BFD controlled static routes o FreeBSD: Setup password for BGP MD5 authentication o IO: Remove socket number limit o Plenty of bug fixes Upgrade notes: For RIP, most protocol options were moved to interface blocks. Enjoy! Ondrej From nobody Sat Apr 30 05:51:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892A412D0E9 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 05:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ab1pjyhuuvG7 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 05:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D661B12D0E4 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 05:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3UCpQuc003223 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u3UCpQes006552; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CEC62001; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id SlsNKbhE-UVn; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BBF961FE6; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:23 +0200 Message-ID: <871t5ncl9w.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Toke =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= In-Reply-To: <201806F7-2CF3-483C-A05A-D7F0C3C86FDD@toke.dk> References: <85ba0983-cd51-955d-6186-c0726fd82309@network.cz> <201806F7-2CF3-483C-A05A-D7F0C3C86FDD@toke.dk> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:51:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5724AA4E.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5724AA4E.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5724AA4E.002 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5724AA4E.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5724AA4E.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5724AA4E.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org, babel@ietf.org Subject: Re: [babel] [Babel-users] Fwd: Version 1.6.0 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:51:31 -0000 > Version 1.6 of the Bird routing daemon was just released and includes my > Babel implementation :) Excellent news. I'll make suitable edits to the Babel web pages ASAP. -- Juliusz