From nobody Fri Mar 3 15:57:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietf.org Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53B6129690; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 15:55:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148858532273.15846.4035345181323931702.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:55:22 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: babel@ietf.org, akatlas@gmail.com Subject: [babel] babel - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 23:55:23 -0000 Dear Donald Eastlake, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. babel Session 1 (1:30:00) Tuesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1430 Room Name: Zurich A size: 115 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Donald Eastlake Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: manet ospf homenet trill saag lpwan isis idr rtgwg i2rs netmod netconf Second Priority: dnsop dnssd 6man v6ops People who must be present: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd Russ White Alia Atlas Resources Requested: Meetecho support in room Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Mar 9 20:56:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577F41288B8; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:56:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BHgqPK2L1H0E; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com (mail-it0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057ED129469; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id m27so1206188iti.1; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 20:56:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yj6RzwHVVZQgo1uMVqx54ZJaTyiArO1hrZHnK5yMNEc=; b=Zv/grwe5zkc00QrTTg18wlEqGefgO6EzxyC5Ka4H3BKwSdCUztj2qODCcHEh9Tj5Q8 HRUm3gm2LIL80MolfDphE21FUbkFWTOOGa77RkW8exCGyJdaku8zeTd7F277H7MdPW+l q67FhoeieejwF+khjhufOWzgo0S5USzAdpwPijpxWMrFC3yV7yV9J04gfFLj6yJBHQpp 5V5CLmTitsIn7BkMk53kqey4ul4AGxMPSaWQQQQNGKCg7O/25ehoNuYbdtWnFMH40d64 ptVIWe25MXWpP6rcoAjmZabo+jBnhwHEHMZ0Hoq3VdnG3MsmRHEgG+FlhYJ/kUSHCSKa EFLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yj6RzwHVVZQgo1uMVqx54ZJaTyiArO1hrZHnK5yMNEc=; b=BF/nHcuAIpcF85Mun4PnPmTdm/SmusDoAqd3NrKX1Qn24aKnDkOuKpbWY6Pvhh4wtb /tbfUz/LPWscmZnBwMB+zAzWNRhq6AiAvtGDpglCWzAeEJgPpmQm/doDh8WzHuwkFVPj cHMptj7QCwt06cgQ9Mh2smGwqkUOHQO8gvyAuPacAPVQVAvDmwpSMxSqwg1mOTAj2pce o2A22HfQvYWzVKuSr8BYKv7yULffm6W0au7Jda75c8FzGBqwgl0sLyISoEW2exoZtCqb CS0fRzaz2b17QryPMC1zPucs079jq64erIq7XNbYQRmhCL4l8C1omSlahURPZ4yYXuYY T1YA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1TNe8kfUABQXXPdy1zqBt9Jv98GtoSnuOoLRJVtrDcFYRatGrAJWe2uKGsicdsbE+CHe3c+Yj3+uGOUg== X-Received: by 10.36.77.10 with SMTP id l10mr490747itb.59.1489121791024; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 20:56:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.135.215 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:56:15 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:56:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: babel-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [babel] Call for presentations X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:56:33 -0000 Hi, As per the message below, there will be a BABEL WG meeting March 28th at the IETF meeting in Chicago, Illinois. If you would like to make a presentation, contact babel-chairs@ietf.org or post to the BABEL WG mailing list, for examply by replying to this email. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 6:55 PM, "IETF Secretariat" wrote: > Dear Donald Eastlake, > > The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. > Below is the scheduled session information followed by > the original request. > > babel Session 1 (1:30:00) > Tuesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1430 > Room Name: Zurich A size: 115 > --------------------------------------------- > > Request Information: > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol > Area Name: Routing Area > Session Requester: Donald Eastlake > > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours > Number of Attendees: 60 > Conflicts to Avoid: > First Priority: manet ospf homenet trill saag lpwan isis idr rtgwg i2rs netmod netconf > Second Priority: dnsop dnssd 6man v6ops > > > > People who must be present: > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd > Russ White > Alia Atlas > > Resources Requested: > Meetecho support in room From nobody Mon Mar 13 13:45:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961D2129B1F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fKI2B_LVaUD for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C8CB129AE9 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049287.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049287.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2DKbWMl007301 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:38:04 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049287.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2962hqr8aa-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:38:03 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DKc24X013142 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:38:02 -0400 Received: from alpi131.aldc.att.com (alpi131.aldc.att.com [130.8.218.69]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DKbtgK013067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:37:57 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.156]) by alpi131.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:37:49 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.76]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:37:49 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "babel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-stark-babel-information-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHSnDdUzUvf6heDOkuZF7H7Bl53vaGTOVjQ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADFA0E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <148943645406.20312.16640365976683193499.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148943645406.20312.16640365976683193499.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.239.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-13_14:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703130160 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] FW: New Version Notification for draft-stark-babel-information-model-01.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." 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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id ksTTIDTpxN39; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23BC1D78C3; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87r320vlj7.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: "STARK, BARBARA H" In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADFA0E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <148943645406.20312.16640365976683193499.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADFA0E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:50:35 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58C7223B.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58C7223B.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58C7223B.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: "babel@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [babel] FW: New Version Notification for draft-stark-babel-information-model-01.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:50:55 -0000 > I submitted an updated draft of draft-stark-babel-information-model. Thanks, Barbara. I won't have time tomorrow, but I'll do my best to review it before the week-end. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Mar 25 15:03:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DB91293F5 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 15:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iU4hiBX9imu for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 15:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1601126C89 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 15:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v2PM3hf3030140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:43 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v2PM3hNR031676; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:43 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E47D78C3; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:43 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id ueymZnx90THC; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (50-205-78-34-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.205.78.34]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D4F1D78B7; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87zig9aua0.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org CC: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:43 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:03:43 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58D6E93F.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 58D6E93F.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58D6E93F.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58D6E93F.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58D6E93F.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58D6E93F.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Babel meeting at IETF-98, remote participation possible X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 22:03:48 -0000 Dear all, This is just to remind you that there will be a Babel meeting at IETF-98 in Chicago this Tuesday at 13:00 CDT. That's 19:00 Paris time, if I'm not confused. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/agenda.html (The Homenet meeting is on Monday.) You're all warmly encouraged to participate remotely (you don't need to register in advance): https://www.ietf.org/meeting/98/remote-participation.html I recommend meetecho, although it doesn't work in all browsers (it works for me in either Mozilla or Chrome, I don't remember which, and Matthieu got it to work on a Mac). -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 08:50:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF3F126FB3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzfPZNHYXaaW for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C63F128CDC for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id y18so118107222itc.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date:to :mime-version; bh=axYzBP3K1sbwtLOqqZO4orIuAV1S62TFjuECz4knT+I=; b=jDxe3Ty5fww9/DT7iNV+DSNEuKnWu7fVB9HAikYZVv6LTRIM5NuqcEV5eHZWzZkcEX XrC2MKXALE3q7B9v3GRl5Cm02EqXJiqWL/B5QU6IramerlTuNljdMpA0qB7dclvwlE0k TzPxN+mq8QVYN+uopiZjZ3GV1+ptQzsthrCQi9y29KbEsk1lLCEwMmOwRacFwIMANRx2 KB0rKiUs+VkjJIqFGxk63vRCE3sTU5/kus/aNq5kA2rdLtrk4yDn3JoNFitwmLv2P0qB LO7c5gR2VswlZXOmZ9S6Jjgo4XBacxLWWtdiE5INtgpHBaXEAqvWYpBYLiNmNDWXiamn E3KQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:subject :message-id:date:to:mime-version; bh=axYzBP3K1sbwtLOqqZO4orIuAV1S62TFjuECz4knT+I=; b=hJl2K3p4YLvPf0XAN2gcKxIqYuVXXWJTwD5bO9GlHwLifv3pxd/vROXhponTssZYEF 9mJu6WhGjVTpJoXPv6k1355v+F8CuUoxtZKeNDsTSi1hQYwglaMVrqsm6SgrL/2+WpMB cCHXeVp+tws5v6qajqbmL9hlm5NX8J9n7V7wvo/YG98JY5Gt3zw5MGTEhG8qA6/Q7OhK HV0rUFMqkWgJrivWlSusn+kXTEghKRAdRI2M+sZTj0ClP0FckOAlpiB/4PPe8oeesMJo cH8/UbEqEN2pkWYA1h8bjWdSsHiXTt97ETuMRfL7gg1MA1PyoXBGFeveA6ROIY62QRRj QkjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3qqR03TPWhpQx5DLbQAlNOd5c/gpiICA5mZxJoiGhw35a1col3iwTvnw2fFe9IRg== X-Received: by 10.107.143.215 with SMTP id r206mr26145996iod.121.1490716205365; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.37.177] (dtrscolumbus03.d.subnet.rcn.com. [207.229.135.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k186sm1657275ita.30.2017.03.28.08.50.04 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Margaret Cullen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:50:04 -0500 To: babel@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:50:33 -0000 I spoke with Julius yesterday about the need for unicast Hello messages = to support some security scenarios. If Babel could be run using only = unicast messages, this could also enable support for Babel over = Non-Broadcast Multi-Access (NBMA) networks. I=E2=80=99ve looked into this in some detail, and I believe that we can = support unicast Hello messages and IHUs (and therefore a fully unicast = implementation of Babel) with a small number of changes to the base = specification to allow this practice. In cases where peers are = configured or discovered through other means, this does not involve any = changes to the core Babel protocol. The current use of broadcast Hellos = and multicast IHUs would continue to be fully supported. =20 We have a specialized implementation of Babel that uses unicast Hello = messages and IHUs (as described below), with all of the Babel traffic = running over GSSAPI in encrypted peer-to-peer sessions (which is = something we need for reasons specific to our application). We have not = seen any problems related to using unicast Hello messages in this = manner. I have included a short set of document changes to rfc6126bis below that = I believe would accomplish this goal. Thoughts? Margaret _____ In Section 2.1 (Costs, Metric and Neighbourship) OLD: A Babel node periodically broadcasts Hello messages to all of its neighbours;=20 NEW: A Babel node periodically send Hello messages to all of its neighbours;=20 In Section 3.1 (Message Transmission and Reception): OLD:=20 With the exception of Hello TLVs and acknowledgements, all Babel TLVs can be sent to either unicast or multicast addresses, NEW: All Babel TLVs can be sent to either unicast or multicast addresses, In Section 3.4.1 (Reverse Reachability Detection) OLD: Every Babel node sends periodic Hellos over each of its interfaces. Each Hello TLV carries an increasing (modulo 2^16) sequence number and the interval between successive periodic packets sent on this particular interface. NEW: Every Babel node sends periodic Hellos, which may be broadcast over=20 each of its interfaces, or sent in unicast messages to each of its = peers. The Hello TLV carries a sequence number and the interval between successive periodic packets sent on this particular interface. The sequence number is increased (modulo 2^16) for each Hello interval. In Section 3.4.2 (Bidirectional Reachability Detection) OLD: While IHUs are conceptually unicast, they SHOULD be sent to a multicast=20= address in order to avoid an ARP or Neighbour Discovery exchange and=20 to aggregate multiple IHUs in a single packet. NEW: While IHUs are conceptually unicast, they SHOULD be sent to a multicast=20= address when broadcast and multicast are in use, in order to avoid an ARP or Neighbour Discovery exchange and to aggregate multiple IHUs in a single packet. In section 4.4.5 (Hello) OLD: Since there is a single seqno counter for all the Hellos sent by a given node over a given interface, this TLV MUST be sent to a multicast destination. In order to avoid large discontinuities in link=20= quality, multiple Hello TLVs SHOULD NOT be sent in the same packet. NEW: Since there is meant to be a single seqno counter for all the Hellos=20 sent by a given node over a given interface, this TLV MUST be sent to a multicast destination, or the set of unicast Hellos sent on a single = interface in a single Hello interval must use the same seqno. In order to avoid=20= large discontinuities in link quality, multiple Hello TLVs SHOULD NOT=20 be sent in the same packet. From nobody Tue Mar 28 09:05:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A93128792 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZxDcz6c9yNk for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226C5127871 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id r142so40771134qke.2 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4L5ea2thyugoytxq0NVE3qEP6430FUfFGQBN3VY8n0=; b=JwmOCjort9iqHgVYQErPjciGL5G5nl3y+vjNyl3n7FM6jmremEbJp++DZzYX/M7pg0 K499aezDk64vkH7utQ1inhjc3/DwnPe9TD4pud49k7i2MLNmPyqwpOiJwmXOYBMemERQ Uf5QlcDrc/MT58+KIbJTLa8DToGDLLh4r0DnyOzYfmZG2A22r3LiMA1HbANJyLmxhd+S z91tFPwp1FqMSvjOkZuoeCdKdZGLm+o/vqUFF5c1r44VmrvdV7NFB3w8lVv/783yUWpJ SzdLUpMWNRiZsgul0sC9VP7ZwaOxZIbUK31WU+0R+412YQyMmF+eEtg2RcxCj0ajice2 0j1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P4L5ea2thyugoytxq0NVE3qEP6430FUfFGQBN3VY8n0=; b=tqo5n+m+EHNQi1QZG2EMNs1qOcwjyQYtHXP2OlXVG/ow2dsxIgL2iP6ywadi/9UW/X HYdFYu36RxUtyoBvRuJcbiQpm68iPckhIRoeS0SxFTI47Ea+6pgdaYvzNX59OOxyWWbI VZGRNckwtBQbQKLUGEnT50voz65HvbsykcIIHMNXpA8RwUp3cj1mIi+TqZnzMxjNAu38 kTp15s8Em5k0NQIW1JcoypnaUk+nVOph/wyU7wFU97VkX2KRdS/A8NKJIiPtvq7wsEcB WPDyhGyjW2uuAhvu6Bdj/oNrON3Kkhosujwy6X6epPUv0kIiLBfc+ZCnJ6OzYY5YjV56 HNlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1fvRkFhXUUkwh0Sgz0QoxNc0lVbeLaFpqPLl1NNWMRtzYqodcUwNffvlNgNNPbED2ZC/CyokiMQofbQQ== X-Received: by 10.233.235.150 with SMTP id b144mr13818327qkg.262.1490717098042; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:04:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [babel] reliable route transfers X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:05:01 -0000 I haven't got so far as to inspect what this would do to the base specification (at minimum there would need to be a message or flag saying "contact me at ip address X (using pub key y) if you can"), but I have a prototype sort of running that does route transfers via rsync over ssh to port 6696. This solves the congestion control problem with route updates :thoroughly:.= :) Alternatively I was fiddling with using the "ack" message to try and better rate limit route updates. The easy way to expose this problem is to try running the "rtod" tool on any slow (1mbit) network, with a few thousand routes. (it tends to break all the meshy protocols and comes with dire warning attached) https://github.com/dtaht/rtod --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From nobody Tue Mar 28 09:11:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9880A129449 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:11:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSr0OTmogUjd for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B4DD12940E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d10so63886789qke.1 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=liBGZcU9TdyzQvLtjn6hj34wJhS9IjfxxSSs/TfgePM=; b=QXftFzUlRSjOcfgiRPSlVCWmtdNRo2hOYzDEP6WMP05g58ucJuPl+/4UqNvdTR1T11 AgeIh7W6NMdcfull5BhXYXCfPExSOfD3xh0EGGe/TbKXwFVo100i/pFpEoMjdCupB1GC cR+F7VpNItFq0hKX/0Q/Qf0zAyvgpQOTsxeGhXq9nDYMpfis3lWPrxA4muLXDr4e2ohL JZYIAr590+fySmpnXUwQAee1Zt+erxn8sCCDHzPNzQMHJxRvGeFjHet0nTFvDnLfi/yB weNr4rJ64hfIle/o6tl3WpGhhDooznQD7n6U9cz1b8Nuzk42f9fClnzvCiJGIqO3SWl3 FhuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=liBGZcU9TdyzQvLtjn6hj34wJhS9IjfxxSSs/TfgePM=; b=AvQCGlGWBMta51128kxTePmXHp6ylT4oroZ0nE26uwNArTYl6cYT/cSpMyE95EZr6L KPmCF1jW3ShPMcg+kbVOmV+LDge5EQoh0VVWGzNXVJcT6oXDjtJKK87Y5pRmsnTWuw+a gOmg93KR0xPo0KIzb18EA4UeF6EKg0CeQ+k+0ZFebdCHiO9mIIkJs0S9zxi+Y6LHLZmy lKYlOB3t8WhW5mg4P3Gbefr8eI8feZPZdZJIUu8SVnDTwu4qXsC1M/HCU2w9E9ylm1lY an0i+hbLGLX8dUNFmdSCQQkAusMukb+8KngZEjUASp8yIfQ2G7SBwn6IYlpaHvcQczFc JFsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2r7C/hehMuZy5SjAAS/Hl0b6+xjQ7KsYOZ61XGcTsXMiSgF2+gsyjzKzprDi3pAoasunzuLCS8rnmOQw== X-Received: by 10.233.235.150 with SMTP id b144mr13855224qkg.262.1490717459644; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> References: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:10:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Margaret Cullen Cc: Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:11:07 -0000 +10. I will try to attend the meeting remotely today. From nobody Tue Mar 28 10:18:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03BF1296EF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGA-QyXzH5BC for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A524612957D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v2SHI1TD024686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:02 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v2SHI1qS030396; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:01 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BE4D79DA; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id bL8CgmbJCL3O; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:17:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (dhcp-8558.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.88]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 899C7D7916; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:17:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:17:55 -0500 Message-ID: <8760it1fss.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Margaret Cullen Cc: babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> References: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58DA9AC9.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 58DA9AC9.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DA9AC9.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DA9AC9.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DA9AC9.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DA9AC9.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:18:09 -0000 > I spoke with Julius yesterday about the need for unicast Hello messages > to support some security scenarios. If Babel could be run using only > unicast messages, this could also enable support for Babel over > Non-Broadcast Multi-Access (NBMA) networks. > I’ve looked into this in some detail, and I believe that we can support > unicast Hello messages and IHUs (and therefore a fully unicast > implementation of Babel) with a small number of changes to the base > specification to allow this practice. The main issue is that the Hello seqno is per-interface: if you have two neighbours on the same interface, and send a unicast Hello to one and not the other, the seqno counters will become desynchronised. So either: - you make the seqno counter per-neighbour; or - you require that the same number of Hellos be sent to each neighbour; or - you remove the seqno from unicast hellos; or - something else that I'm missing. I'm sure a solution can be found, but it's not a simple matter of removing the requirement that Hellos be sent over multicast. Sending IHUs over unicast is easy (a patch to do that was sent to babel-users, and tested by Dave). However, doing it naively breaks the RTT extension, since RTT is only measured when Hello and IHU are sent in the same packet. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 10:25:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005991296F6 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VYBfKe4UIRXH for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E6EA12945D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v2SHPN4x027624; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:25:23 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8799ED78B7; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:25:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id z1srIsXUrX9R; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:25:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (dhcp-8558.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.88]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A215D79D5; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:25:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:25:25 -0500 Message-ID: <874lyd1fga.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Dave Taht Cc: Babel at IETF , Toke =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8iland-J=F8rgen?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?sen?= In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:25:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58DA9C83.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DA9C83.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DA9C83.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] reliable route transfers X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:25:28 -0000 > Alternatively I was fiddling with using the "ack" message to try and > better rate limit route updates. Right. The current reference implementation doesn't pace route updates -- it sends a whole periodic route dump as a burst of as many packets as needed, rather than staggering updates across the update interval. So even increasing the update interval will not alleviate the amount of data being sent as a burst. I'll see if I can hack together a solution on the plane. It's not entirely obvious how to do it cleanly -- right now, the update deadline is a per-interface datum, it would need to become a per-(route,interface) pair one. Toke, how does your implementation schedule periodic updates? -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 10:41:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B772C129706 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PcS4J5yMRRvq for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [IPv6:2001:470:dc45:1000::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2533E1296FF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D04EA78FA; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:41:00 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1490722860; bh=TfKu6py1+I/SBMbm28F8jjjrdVX4Nj/7mRcVJGCEF0g=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=il0MD1B/66/E2MgCYt9b59Enqs2h2J0HjE49yvdo4iQ4M//yHG+zitob2FbTI3nF2 aPOoY/vLt3AmogNJFjD5HP+42IycwJp/X/Fxja1leIl1K7pAVphrwTu2NYI8fbgecK w+QmpHSQqQtkjvXLkVyQ5JbV1IeNbJAnlknaSwGyn6tQkZ87o1XNy+yUyI5qXDKOGa xxMVlyBlAub9+vN/VBkHkvLfFFc80k56VwfrmFDFvFThRStwpwcDX+a4mZmwv3XL3U 39Z304DZQPZL86rQvBjzvuZLcrNybQP1bfXKCmG12KRhAaXvZbh3ka9Of51PJWkG4o C9w59ijishilg== Received: by alrua-karlstad.karlstad.toke.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B8722AEAB50; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:40:59 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Dave Taht , Babel at IETF References: <874lyd1fga.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:40:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874lyd1fga.wl-jch@irif.fr> (Juliusz Chroboczek's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:25:25 -0500") X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87mvc5s3is.fsf@alrua-karlstad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] reliable route transfers X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:41:12 -0000 Juliusz Chroboczek writes: >> Alternatively I was fiddling with using the "ack" message to try and >> better rate limit route updates. > > Right. The current reference implementation doesn't pace route updates -- > it sends a whole periodic route dump as a burst of as many packets as > needed, rather than staggering updates across the update interval. So > even increasing the update interval will not alleviate the amount of data > being sent as a burst. > > I'll see if I can hack together a solution on the plane. It's not > entirely obvious how to do it cleanly -- right now, the update deadline is > a per-interface datum, it would need to become a per-(route,interface) > pair one. > > Toke, how does your implementation schedule periodic updates? Same as babeld (i.e., it doesn't, it just dumps everything at once). -Toke From nobody Tue Mar 28 11:23:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDF01298D3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gd_JWqwmUzPu for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x242.google.com (mail-it0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55A7E1293E8 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x242.google.com with SMTP id 190so5118250itm.3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=wadKawZT1XNgB3YmH6erNBCFh03OxqDwG8XckbcvW+E=; b=Ukbf24LqDjwF4TP+TXm2mI0pFjgkR80zKr7kZFpP/YApHnTcxsv97GOKMnn0qPsoet SitSuTlxfspteGdOCE+zcyqdXAs/eARLetGBus02bhgjXL+uJM1IiWuRanNExxpWANX/ K69jP4SVbYaqi4Wnnshw3mJxOKqNQ5qAUl0evjtYUf1EZdlZhAyoF78BHmH8q2aVpnvL 32vahiPR71DxiQMzWk5ax+wSksoSB/Pf+tW27xnKXF8OCPBuMDOr/toY9kf3Sd+qCs8j 4Qlvg6P5UgNapcA3rR/wL00tsWUgzJdQUv2SnfnZEbw9ndqKBEUjrNfFLkq89k9vJDna ksLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=wadKawZT1XNgB3YmH6erNBCFh03OxqDwG8XckbcvW+E=; b=Klco5uBmW8JlKaNjA8mmuWvCrcWN6jLROz/yZSdwrIvaVUBJ+MS4IVxMzZAJC+1qcg eCBzpYIBDBvjLfqTWJq5ZTKdRioZaN1KRoRtkXmvldckHMXpEhKu3zuu90Z2RwKYi+1i 1igREHGnK5bsG+rdB5p+pbux+SL4Q2Dp6zTZ7CQfH4FZ0LUGjaSSax76r6ZOmAGwjaxL Yf3BcpcAjNl265QFXOiyWMfjkKp1m8S8lQyj16/DCH+gH6BMSwMHVOUawLlTWjNDzB+z lJ6a6p0O5o89M+GzH+HLfzHc7H7fNNIA5EknewbxM30OIB7MBzWdPbdNFOesUKEIBeJA 3KQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0XiMLxCTpXomqDT2S60n+sRJkCrRfuPC4Id/xCWVmp/bj0eZL6aauxUwzHgvQi6w== X-Received: by 10.107.26.202 with SMTP id a193mr25513059ioa.130.1490725426703; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:e467:9bdd:667f:6102? (t2001067c03700128e4679bdd667f6102.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:e467:9bdd:667f:6102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m77sm1880865ita.16.2017.03.28.11.23.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Margaret Wasserman X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14D27) In-Reply-To: <8760it1fss.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0500 Cc: Margaret Cullen , babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <17BE8E63-A808-4D5A-AC12-3AF19832320C@gmail.com> References: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> <8760it1fss.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:23:55 -0000 My proposal is that any time we would currently send any Hello on an interfa= ce, we could instead choose to send a unicast Hello to _every_ peer on that i= nterface using the same sequence number. I think that is the least disrupti= ve way to support unicast Hellos. IHUs could also be sent in the same packet, although it would probably not m= ake sense to include an IHU in the other Hellos that are sent to keep other n= eighbors on the same link in sync. The draft should probably mention that. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> I spoke with Julius yesterday about the need for unicast Hello messages >> to support some security scenarios. If Babel could be run using only >> unicast messages, this could also enable support for Babel over >> Non-Broadcast Multi-Access (NBMA) networks. >=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve looked into this in some detail, and I believe that we can s= upport >> unicast Hello messages and IHUs (and therefore a fully unicast >> implementation of Babel) with a small number of changes to the base >> specification to allow this practice. >=20 > The main issue is that the Hello seqno is per-interface: if you have two > neighbours on the same interface, and send a unicast Hello to one and not > the other, the seqno counters will become desynchronised. So either: >=20 > - you make the seqno counter per-neighbour; or > - you require that the same number of Hellos be sent to each neighbour; o= r > - you remove the seqno from unicast hellos; or > - something else that I'm missing. >=20 > I'm sure a solution can be found, but it's not a simple matter of removing= > the requirement that Hellos be sent over multicast. >=20 > Sending IHUs over unicast is easy (a patch to do that was sent to > babel-users, and tested by Dave). However, doing it naively breaks the > RTT extension, since RTT is only measured when Hello and IHU are sent in > the same packet. >=20 > -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 13:23:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF70B129A09 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwwPENjqL3ds for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A72941295E7 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id f11so76026541qkb.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AqpZ0km/vxb6vribKxMi4sBHeFvjup9TuKj6xMbAB2E=; b=mcO+5DaIVVy18X0Vt7SbkqcShimG3kHbqs1QUoVbHZi0GhnzttHG8YrOx9HxrC4F+Y TGh/3HkFocXYtFjDBY4ty8QCPQ9nUHpL0/jiP03dh/yiZGMWO5vp9ORwhK1YSBI+8ErM GGg/xwaMfZqB4yC3rv+Akt+Ru+MCe887pNZlkMu2CsLzUiXgnQJb+WzHAn4jsLTAWabc FaLz6SbkTcPxSRJBJDW5EtwRraBoj3qat/u6nZ56O27Mw1b4neUmZM4w7t1FvdKa5so3 3cJjs2Me/6cNh3+VP3j4af7bHk0G6AstiEOcRXE2JLmxcOuhW/QVvZoRKlevCvnn+FQh 7F0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AqpZ0km/vxb6vribKxMi4sBHeFvjup9TuKj6xMbAB2E=; b=oXU0X+h4gvtbI+ARF9OcNJpQDbJDiNNp0SsiwsPNvuKO3OfRgbLMbsbZqnS8aBzSZO y8D3rzAIDPcEfgrmCMeTYQlyAHQt2k4R2fSvSlR0uYszD3teaMInmpCBTHnjJwYRzCM5 qLOyXpwwv2wxdwuGg5qPCcipdtzfC+dxf+hbpjcZXJig4WniYpDQDJk7bkgZNozTBuJa 1H3Xn3CQ9XknD7VDJQmzFTY+3sMLQ3nUCjmjZREl/jWOpEcV6ssbtf5Bctu8EX5FGgTP 5I5Y2fcrJ+ytKK/VjQs5TVZt5p+1LQL2RzEvn2CzORyeSSLEEbGKrNlsD1p7/k7jPRvE 6f5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0oqkG7iMvapUg20ls1oufe1K9OQA8WNKMDUkquBXzuguXWQ1C6sDntZblfk5pESUups49pD1NZlCXdGA== X-Received: by 10.55.98.74 with SMTP id w71mr12292465qkb.118.1490732610817; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <874lyd1fga.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <874lyd1fga.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:23:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Babel at IETF , =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vuc2Vu?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] reliable route transfers X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:23:34 -0000 On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> Alternatively I was fiddling with using the "ack" message to try and >> better rate limit route updates. > > Right. The current reference implementation doesn't pace route updates -= - > it sends a whole periodic route dump as a burst of as many packets as > needed, rather than staggering updates across the update interval. So > even increasing the update interval will not alleviate the amount of data > being sent as a burst. Yes. basic tcp friendliness would be good here.... and burstyness to some extent is also desirable for 802.11 aggregation. > I'll see if I can hack together a solution on the plane. It's not > entirely obvious how to do it cleanly -- right now, the update deadline i= s > a per-interface datum, it would need to become a per-(route,interface) > pair one. The point of confusion for me in the spec was that each route is associated with an interval (currently) closely associated with the hello timer. There will always be a point (RFC970) at any bandwidth, where you have more routes than you can get out in any given hello interval, and either discarding them (intelligently), or pushing forward (increasing) their potential update interval to something that can be expressed within that bandwidth seem like answers, while still adhering closely to delivering hello packets within their interval. > Toke, how does your implementation schedule periodic updates? > > -- Juliusz --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From nobody Tue Mar 28 13:32:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACBC129A23 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PsntBwbgGXwY for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D35F129A22 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v2SKWful019350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:41 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v2SKWfSF015846; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:41 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DF7D78C3; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id KZj4eI5JK9kG; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (dhcp-8558.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.88]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74BBCD78B7; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:32:39 -0500 Message-ID: <87vaqtywew.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <17BE8E63-A808-4D5A-AC12-3AF19832320C@gmail.com> References: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> <8760it1fss.wl-jch@irif.fr> <17BE8E63-A808-4D5A-AC12-3AF19832320C@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58DAC869.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 58DAC869.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DAC869.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DAC869.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DAC869.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DAC869.002 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:32:48 -0000 > My proposal is that any time we would currently send any Hello on an > interface, we could instead choose to send a unicast Hello to _every_ > peer on that interface using the same sequence number. Right. This works fine, doesn't break existing implementations, and requires barely any protocol changes. Is it ambitious enough? Does it meet all the requirements for unicast Hellos? What if you want to send hellos more frequently to one neighbour than to others, what if you want to use multicast by default and unicast for selected hosts? Russ's proposal, if I understand it correctly, was to interpret every packet as a Hello; then, in order to send a unicast Hello, you just send an empty problem. The problem with that is that timestamps are a sub-TLV of Hello TLVs, so you'd need a place to piggyback timestamps. My proposal is to define a new TLV, the "seqno-less, interval-less Hello", which has no payload and can be sent over unicast, multicast, whatever; any sub-TLV that is allowed on Hello is allowed on NakedHello. Question to the audience: is it possible to achieve the same without a new TLV? -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 13:47:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BD4129590 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lK27K89a8eXZ for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93E1212949E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v2SKlKHN022946; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:47:20 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297D2D78F6; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:47:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id kHqsRE7L3EF8; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:47:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (dhcp-8558.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.88]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 589BED78C3; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:47:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:47:21 -0500 Message-ID: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn CC: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:47:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 58DACBD8.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 58DACBD8.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 58DACBD8.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:47:26 -0000 Dear Sandy, dear all, I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at least two approaches worth considering: - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; - use MLD with Babel. I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clearly attractive to run a single protocol. As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for BIER, but of course someone would need to write it down and check the details. As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if there were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draft. I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence nor the manpower to do the implementation on my own. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Mar 28 13:49:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1294C1294AE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9fD_IqdAUBWE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBC5012949E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i34so75285937qtc.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mkNm2oH3cbuKxUEwTYm7K1WUbQs8Fc0UoMAJvceKQFM=; b=OyWoaQFIq7n36wpjZ/V+PIgWK8/K4/6WnKcnNwpUSyPyejdsQX2mpuB0MLXKdDFCpR mNVWNGKUucKL/4YiIpBbFZDU1VpOy1XnNSGJQNkk8zqiOcc/s3HWF44G4bV9u+28g+xz H6iqfHFXaovjFeQ0gQtq6mBDiN6AHnMwjLRJrvGVlspx5esJyaVHXYQKnXXUge1JyMqO bQaXo2XXxOWE6Yxt37QplN0fEcTyFe4qK4Ia/55IjjPyb5pnQJkePD7hJH91WP7cj5qF czisLGkKilVv+Ck5+wPmu6Br5YQ0IU18yeDs4zkWAOqQIAE3EXlsvBAjIZmQjqZ25u1i V3tA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mkNm2oH3cbuKxUEwTYm7K1WUbQs8Fc0UoMAJvceKQFM=; b=gdz1YvwkfO4jYOIJFCjyHz5kdwsSmuEB2MeI6w/8yJePWm0leCM6wiZnjimgRRCv6f BvqC5cielBUbx3k3if6DOqL3h4uXhHYrk3Z/hg0T9drwPFch1dmpxOvRKim4lBUijXc1 XTvWOxdRBtDnIVCGncwlMUDRtbLUQRMREc1PZi5vxS16ICDOyDdH0gVp0sksYTBF8pcW rwMZCwg6WWBEzRI0byxcUimh2U8PSUwMRCJd/liLNbgWfCCNTOvz+ttt783AJOsZBur1 VyEdBFQus8Pp3EBv4TgpxM57yAxyW8zK2vHdxX4Jb/gbpfPDiECjav2JafFR6SIivkDG BxUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H35Fx1OkCBjh2LcOEJgfmsY+PCGVADDf/33g3PoaGuTMqo4La4bSiFnFcD8MzmHt+lh+qbtPA32nwNJOA== X-Received: by 10.237.48.144 with SMTP id 16mr27247940qtf.10.1490734137948; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87vaqtywew.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <6A5D449E-48E7-48B4-9171-6A3B4EA8B3D3@gmail.com> <8760it1fss.wl-jch@irif.fr> <17BE8E63-A808-4D5A-AC12-3AF19832320C@gmail.com> <87vaqtywew.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:48:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Margaret Wasserman , Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hello Messages and IHUs X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:49:01 -0000 On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> My proposal is that any time we would currently send any Hello on an >> interface, we could instead choose to send a unicast Hello to _every_ >> peer on that interface using the same sequence number. > > Right. This works fine, doesn't break existing implementations, and > requires barely any protocol changes. > > Is it ambitious enough? Does it meet all the requirements for unicast > Hellos? What if you want to send hellos more frequently to one neighbour > than to others, what if you want to use multicast by default and unicast > for selected hosts? As I mentioned, there is a deployment problem, where if you want to upgrade an existing network to have unicast hello capabilities, the participating routers need to agree on what they can send and recieve. There is another interesting case in the case of wifi or a shared network - a new (or freshly booted) babel router can snoop on existing unicast traffic and determine the babel nodes already on it and try to communicate directly with them, also via unicast, without ever needing to revert to multicast to announce itself. > > Russ's proposal, if I understand it correctly, was to interpret every > packet as a Hello; then, in order to send a unicast Hello, you just send > an empty problem. The problem with that is that timestamps are a sub-TLV > of Hello TLVs, so you'd need a place to piggyback timestamps. Let me go to my route-update related congestion control problem. A possible way to cope with that is to embed the timestamp related tlv inside the message_ack request and response (rather than within the hello/IHU) > My proposal is to define a new TLV, the "seqno-less, interval-less Hello"= , > which has no payload and can be sent over unicast, multicast, whatever; > any sub-TLV that is allowed on Hello is allowed on NakedHello. > > Question to the audience: is it possible to achieve the same without a ne= w > TLV? I like the idea of not needing anything at all in what is basically a heartbeat message. But why exclude the interval possibility? ... There are quite a few things I'd often wanted sometimes embedded in a hello-like message - they included "number of routes I have", "I'm (not) a default gw-ish device", "my location is here", "this is my forwarding rate and how much capacity I have left over", "uptime", and so on. ... but I've generally tried to refrain from this can of worms. > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From nobody Tue Mar 28 14:48:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A678129A2E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6QGpp3aBwWvp for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76371129686 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id r142so49079960qke.2 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/gaNlsemFuKQGivgha7oUePt2FnIo8jF8j0f3cG05Rs=; b=kpLTbQeRWLvfdGDmjKwVyBL7MpMBmJsvT24K0+8o/Xuof93TfWHMfPPSXbX5v0MOcE 4jIcoWQ9hjv5Tbt2DSuoFQC62P0YqvPYEs5O+ojlVUTNk2pbMTp4rb+yLspuRMM6ARuo KAF1Ei3otQE0P4w5yy4lvn29Ye3NSmUeBEwsmmgpiuVJd6CMT9FXOeLcxlTxACTS3Ldb +jW3EthBUF+SBG+cZCHDPu1e/4WV1rc/PVU43dUBhhiUj1NUfD7azIbO8yjtwZbRosna 4fmJZQRCB+FPwyT3dkcS8RsnYupxt8nluqAZ7EM5yR7/S+F6lBzDonz/XKT8emLgQqsW 3aKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/gaNlsemFuKQGivgha7oUePt2FnIo8jF8j0f3cG05Rs=; b=lrxcSIt0leFQUWLEyot+1NeA83iKvVh4Pi7ySkYm+dhR3iuBVRsyuLfLQGuYw/S8iR CsshyntSXhcCMtDnP0ZmS1m742+DnLFJREP22o4JPRaE10irtwXbKZ7Ka5hc+tWpsjAF XPwq6q6xOXjXyqoH96G8q3Qev04LqQyeiqo4Yqc/5nf6cYpRg6KYFRoW4YChfELSH+J1 68UdxJq5b6s8tHYkCPbVfTHBNHnj4LmgRwVvqypVbL9pHmLDdM4YL+1oMlk3akUBhPGg PukbJRQcA9xiHoa59Ct9zz+k7IGyauaAdvKne43CtWaLHCT9kVyE13GuzfBdDDgLLt7l e+Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3h2/ddtUvEiMI0EtelczkfpyIQZfT1BF0ZLcItBBkecXJsZBd2NhkaSqQKNjKlibEd7wLMtCtoBQfKGA== X-Received: by 10.55.19.83 with SMTP id d80mr29067852qkh.196.1490737712586; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:48:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn, Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:48:36 -0000 ... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well still be overly ignorant, but read on. On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Dear Sandy, dear all, > > I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to > experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at least two > approaches worth considering: > > - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; > - use MLD with Babel. > > I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clearly > attractive to run a single protocol. > > As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your > encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for BIER= , > but of course someone would need to write it down and check the details. However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft seems straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects elsewhere in babel. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6 4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything else), while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like how the new source specific ae is formed. if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on linux, or other use cases, please point me at em! > As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if there > were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draft. > I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence nor > the manpower to do the implementation on my own. > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:06:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4786129456 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTz40HMOt_AK for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22c.google.com (mail-wr0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 840FA12773A for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id w11so97805648wrc.3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=50nFC2o9y9xLeFzSH6CbV4CZ7dt8uD2x4NpHWfYvnOA=; b=kCs039iJp/0VteEqQwTG3zacc2LnMpP/WxZ7vefHgKEP+naAIi6jAQ0rDmFnsDlHqb SkYxmI+FStxCuTQ0BrKXW61aKU89IzprQQDctBO2kXef3t+l3n84RDrSEFTzA2nSa9pW yZhbRoBw+uUvUWp9+/3TPBGPTV7uubc+duBbIJYzpLaIJ03o94jmugxxvS8H6XMDU0Z2 bsdRKfF9J4bXa/Fa+PLXKV4ESuKJKU7dxY4D1dbIu6yvV6iSzHPs0ltwkyx5qwJzvbXM OFy70tqrXFdAup6Kl4L0LVgWuFs6cHUar2lBQaO/tSIxoi2dNc7Tekjjb3++M+qypQas C6mQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=50nFC2o9y9xLeFzSH6CbV4CZ7dt8uD2x4NpHWfYvnOA=; b=ZfWaPvQc9++w91imzgNB9xYqXmu1W4PaKtDZmHLGX6b0iXuKG7t/dS0kWl5vDMSbJL o/dsY0o+f3FfdImgfEFU6Fsri1R2KROJcFc8dn2G6xnvb4JzOpPjhI7bXit42ufwPurR 2ddUzNVMxksRg3N9bGvU3HDpM2YTfOGvnoEy/rc1wQRSJFXRrHQDpxJnKi+5BO0lR3v7 P+6HxSr6Eoq1fs9WZfq0n8IsJ1UAXyr9r8hh6JAy2Pv5qfjYy3pbqodyiR17yRaS4ltj W22q0TRg32tX/G5wF1fdrRjgOc8SJCPRaRJVN4LyKoYWb4doO6L43obbJhKYj6KvTMsd qc+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3LNghxDpnTNaSHtQeBM8ZrfLncxuL/47//xHqmjB5v0EFqLkzrPMaqAH4g/On0WTsohAs4tVqkvtNnZw== X-Received: by 10.223.145.68 with SMTP id j62mr27733571wrj.44.1490742377912; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.145.69 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Alia Atlas Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:06:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn, Babel at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05cb86e322f0054bd281af Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:06:22 -0000 --94eb2c05cb86e322f0054bd281af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, Take a look at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-architecture and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulatio= n . The latter allows use over Ethernet (despite the old draft title). The IPv6 encapsulation does not have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't discussed this IETF. Regards, Alia On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > ... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well > still be overly ignorant, but read on. > > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > Dear Sandy, dear all, > > > > I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to > > experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at least t= wo > > approaches worth considering: > > > > - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; > > - use MLD with Babel. > > > > I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clear= ly > > attractive to run a single protocol. > > > > As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your > > encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for > BIER, > > but of course someone would need to write it down and check the details= . > > However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft seems > straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects > elsewhere in babel. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6 > > 4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks > everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything > else), > > while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like > how the new source specific ae is formed. > > if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on > linux, or other use cases, please point me at em! > > > As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if ther= e > > were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draft= . > > I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence nor > > the manpower to do the implementation on my own. > > > > -- Juliusz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > > -- > Dave T=C3=A4ht > Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! > http://blog.cerowrt.org > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > --94eb2c05cb86e322f0054bd281af Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave,

The latter allows use over Ethernet (despit= e the old draft title).=C2=A0 The IPv6 encapsulation does not have WG agree= ment to adopt and wasn't discussed this IETF.

= Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@= gmail.com> wrote:
... up u= ntil this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well
still be overly ignorant, but read on.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> Dear Sandy, dear all,
>
> I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to
> experiment with BIER and Babel.=C2=A0 As you explained, there are at l= east two
> approaches worth considering:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft s= uggests;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- use MLD with Babel.
>
> I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clea= rly
> attractive to run a single protocol.
>
> As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your > encoding.=C2=A0 My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number = for BIER,
> but of course someone would need to write it down and check the detail= s.

However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft = seems
straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects
elsewhere in babel.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6

4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks
everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything
else),

while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like
how the new source specific ae is formed.

if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on
linux, or other use cases, please point me at em!

> As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if the= re
> were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draf= t.
> I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence no= r
> the manpower to do the implementation on my own.
>
> -- Juliusz
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=



--
Dave T=C3=A4ht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
ht= tp://blog.cerowrt.org

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

--94eb2c05cb86e322f0054bd281af-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:14:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A27126BFD for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0JS1iuGkdQo for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from APC01-HK2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092255037.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.255.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F843126CE8 for ; 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 Hi Juliusz and all,

At= first I must apology about the misunderstanding caused by the two drafts. = One is =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=A1=B1, it was presented i= n Seoul meeting; it is the BIER Routing underlay technology. The other one is =A1=B0draft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=A1=B1, it = was presented in this meeting. It is multicast flow overlay technology. The= two drafts focus on different aspect of BIER technology. And the two draft= s are independent though we can use them together. The man who is not familiar with BIER will be confused about it. The first= draft =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=A1=B1 had been discussed = in BIER working group and many people thought that it is worth implemented.= The second draft =A1=B0draft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=A1=B1 is just an idea for multicast flow overlay. And the implementation that we= discussed today is =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=A1=B1.

I = suggest strongly that the draft =A1=B0draft-ietf-bier-architecture-05=A1=B1= should be read first. You will know the meaning of Routing underlay/ BIER = layer/ Multicast Flow Overlay. The three layers are focus on different aspect of BIER technology. Routing underlay is used= to transfer BFR-id corresponding information. There are OSPF/ ISIS/ BGP BI= ER extension in BIER working group. You can find them through the link =A1= =B0https://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/=A1=B1. In fact, the draft =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=A1=B1 also belo= ngs to Routing underlay layer. And this draft is worth implemented first.

Th= e draft =A1=B0draft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=A1=B1 belongs to Multicast Flow = Overlay. This layer is used to transfer particular multicast flow informati= on. And there is also a draft =A1=B0draft-pfister-bier-mld-03=A1=B1 that is used to solve it. And the =A1=B0draft-pfister-bier-mld-03=A1=B1 is= the function that we call MLD in abbreviation.

So= , you will see that we can use =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00= =A1=B1 and =A1=B0draft-pfister-bier-mld-03=A1=B1 together to solve the Rout= ing Underlay and Multicast Flow Overlay. It is Babel + MLD solution. And many people include me think that it is a good way to achieve the mult= icast deployment.

Th= e way that I said use one protocol to solve multicast problem is that we us= e =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=A1=B1 and =A1=B0draft-zhang-pi= m-babel-ext-02=A1=B1 at the same time. In this situation we only use one protocol Babel to solve Routing underlay and Multicast flow o= verlay. This function is just an idea. And it means nothing if there is no = situation that we can only use one protocol to deploy multicast.

In= a word, we should consider the implementation of =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier-ba= bel-extensions-00=A1=B1. The BIER forwarding plane software had also been i= mplemented by ZTE, and I think Cisco does it also. So at first it should be considered that how to merge Babel protocol and B= IER forwarding software together. And then implement =A1=B0draft-zhang-bier= -babel-extensions-00=A1=B1.


Thanks,
Sandy

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: babel= <babel-bounces@ietf.org> =B4=FA=B1=ED Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@iri= f.fr>
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2017=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 4:47
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
=B3=AD=CB=CD: babel@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [babel] About BIER in Babel
 
Dear Sandy, dear all,

I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to
experiment with BIER and Babel.  As you explained, there are at least = two
approaches worth considering:

  - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests;   - use MLD with Babel.

I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clearly attractive to run a single protocol.

As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your
encoding.  My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for B= IER,
but of course someone would need to write it down and check the details.
As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if there were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draft. I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence nor
the manpower to do the implementation on my own.

-- Juliusz

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1437; H:DM2PR0501MB1438.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2017 23:31:29.8609 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB1437 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:31:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44" --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 28, 2017, at 6:14 PM, Zhang Z wrote: >=20 > Hi Juliusz and all, > At first I must apology about the misunderstanding caused by the two = drafts. One is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D, = it was presented in Seoul meeting; it is the BIER Routing underlay = technology. The other one is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= , it was presented in this meeting. It is multicast flow overlay = technology. The two drafts focus on different aspect of BIER technology. = And the two drafts are independent though we can use them together. The = man who is not familiar with BIER will be confused about it. The first = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D had been = discussed in BIER working group and many people thought that it is worth = implemented. The second draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= is just an idea for multicast flow overlay. And the implementation that = we discussed today is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D= . > I suggest strongly that the draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-architecture-05=E2=80=9D should be read first. = You will know the meaning of Routing underlay/ BIER layer/ Multicast = Flow Overlay. The three layers are focus on different aspect of BIER = technology. Routing underlay is used to transfer BFR-id corresponding = information. There are OSPF/ ISIS/ BGP BIER extension in BIER working = group. You can find them through the link = =E2=80=9Chttps://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/ = =E2=80=9D. In fact, the draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D also belongs to = Routing underlay layer. And this draft is worth implemented first. + 10E3 > The draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D belongs to = Multicast Flow Overlay. This layer is used to transfer particular = multicast flow information. And there is also a draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D that is used to solve it. = And the =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D is the function that = we call MLD in abbreviation. > So, you will see that we can use = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D together to solve the = Routing Underlay and Multicast Flow Overlay. It is Babel + MLD solution. = And many people include me think that it is a good way to achieve the = multicast deployment. > The way that I said use one protocol to solve multicast problem is = that we use =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D at the same time. In this = situation we only use one protocol Babel to solve Routing underlay and = Multicast flow overlay. This function is just an idea. And it means = nothing if there is no situation that we can only use one protocol to = deploy multicast. overlays will be plentiful and they will be a continuum between = simplicity and scale =E2=80=A6=20 > In a word, we should consider the implementation of = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. The BIER = forwarding plane software had also been implemented by ZTE, and I think = Cisco does it also. So at first it should be considered that how to = merge Babel protocol and BIER forwarding software together. And then = implement =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. There is an interesting ongoing discussion about Linux kernel software = implementation to some extent/socket APIs =E2=80=A6=20 =E2=80=94 tony=20= --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Mar 28, 2017, at 6:14 PM, Zhang Z <zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com> wrote:

 Hi = Juliusz and all,
At first I must apology about the misunderstanding caused by = the two drafts. One is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80= =9D, it was presented in Seoul meeting; it is the BIER Routing underlay = technology. The other one is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= , it was presented in this meeting. It is multicast flow overlay = technology. The two drafts focus on different aspect of BIER technology. = And the two drafts are independent though we can use them together. The = man who is not familiar with BIER will be confused about it. The first = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D had been = discussed in BIER working group and many people thought that it is worth = implemented. The second draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= is just an idea for multicast flow overlay. And the implementation that = we discussed today is = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D.
I suggest strongly that the = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-architecture-05=E2=80=9D should be read = first. You will know the meaning of Routing underlay/ BIER layer/ = Multicast Flow Overlay. The three layers are focus on different aspect = of BIER technology. Routing underlay is used to transfer BFR-id = corresponding information. There are OSPF/ ISIS/ BGP BIER extension in = BIER working group. You can find them through the link =E2=80=9Chttps://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/=E2=80=9D. In fact, the = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D also = belongs to Routing underlay layer. And this draft is worth implemented = first.

+ 10E3

The draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D belongs to Multicast Flow = Overlay. This layer is used to transfer particular multicast flow = information. And there is also a draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2= =80=9D that is used to solve it. And the =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-0= 3=E2=80=9D is the function that we call MLD in = abbreviation.
So, = you will see that we can use =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D together to = solve the Routing Underlay and Multicast Flow Overlay. It is Babel + MLD = solution. And many people include me think that it is a good way to = achieve the multicast deployment.
The way that I said use one protocol to solve = multicast problem is that we use = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D at the same time. In this = situation we only use one protocol Babel to solve Routing underlay and = Multicast flow overlay. This function is just an idea. And it means = nothing if there is no situation that we can only use one protocol to = deploy multicast.

overlays will be plentiful and they will be a = continuum between simplicity and scale =E2=80=A6 

In a word, we should consider the implementation of = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. The BIER = forwarding plane software had also been implemented by ZTE, and I think = Cisco does it also. So at first it should be considered that how to = merge Babel protocol and BIER forwarding software together. And then = implement = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D.
=

There is an = interesting ongoing discussion about Linux kernel software = implementation to some extent/socket APIs =E2=80=A6 

=E2=80=94 = tony 
= --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44-- --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIHbjCCB2ow ggZSoAMCAQICCi4IMqUABQABO2QwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgccxIzAhBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWFGNh LWFkbWluQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTESMBAG A1UEBxMJU3Vubnl2YWxlMR8wHQYDVQQKExZKdW5pcGVyIE5ldHdvcmtzLCBJbmMuMSYwJAYDVQQL Ex1KdW5pcGVyIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GA1UEAxMYSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3Jr cyBSb290IENBMB4XDTE2MDUzMDE3MDUwMFoXDTE3MDUzMDE3MDUwMFowgZgxEzARBgoJkiaJk/Is ZAEZFgNuZXQxFDASBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgRqbnByMQwwCgYDVQQLEwNFbmcxDjAMBgNVBAsTBVVz ZXJzMREwDwYDVQQLEwhBbWVyaWNhczEaMBgGA1UEAxMRQW50b25pIFByenlnaWVuZGExHjAcBgkq hkiG9w0BCQEWD3ByekBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEB ALOhfmGxyZnXFf+cGLCzOrMp/MlgdtUE0ylNqtuCssen+mIGULkhswLTbbd/n+9zWsLjX4LJDu0w BgWtg4MDGHfA+oCj+IiTXYfmOQCgHPRanPMylYuDfoJui+d99h+w/Pdlb/Ja62gPkS6kbA6MD6eS pHr8My+9zOxJuupm2e5nI6dOw5YHxp+gL9CfLCELXGqvWK40eJxECxe+rsc3mirIaGQ0jx46ka6M nWEy/7mMD7qrCersu/CzLkEp917gdVrPU6hlKWNQS+/iZffcpuJxVL+plUh4jqBzo2WML/jG1cBz ksAkwd+F57IaZ0KRkjnY5ZrX5Pv/cNyRLeyZcpcCAwEAAaOCA4MwggN/MB0GA1UdDgQWBBQOBOnT wPNwoa/0Dd1l89SzLaOGfjAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBSaKldNI6FqeM1ZjG53HY3NMc5CnDCCASwGA1Ud HwSCASMwggEfMIIBG6CCARegggEThoHFbGRhcDovLy9DTj1KdW5pcGVyJTIwTmV0d29ya3MlMjBS b290JTIwQ0EoNSksQ049Y2Etam5wcixDTj1DRFAsQ049UHVibGljJTIwS2V5JTIwU2VydmljZXMs Q049U2VydmljZXMsQ049Q29uZmlndXJhdGlvbixEQz1qbnByLERDPW5ldD9jZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZVJl dm9jYXRpb25MaXN0P2Jhc2U/b2JqZWN0Q2xhc3M9Y1JMRGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uUG9pbnSGSWh0dHA6 Ly9wa2ktam5wci5qbnByLm5ldC9DZXJ0RW5yb2xsL0p1bmlwZXIlMjBOZXR3b3JrcyUyMFJvb3Ql MjBDQSg1KS5jcmwwggE3BggrBgEFBQcBAQSCASkwggElMIG6BggrBgEFBQcwAoaBrWxkYXA6Ly8v Q049SnVuaXBlciUyME5ldHdvcmtzJTIwUm9vdCUyMENBLENOPUFJQSxDTj1QdWJsaWMlMjBLZXkl MjBTZXJ2aWNlcyxDTj1TZXJ2aWNlcyxDTj1Db25maWd1cmF0aW9uLERDPWpucHIsREM9bmV0P2NB Q2VydGlmaWNhdGU/YmFzZT9vYmplY3RDbGFzcz1jZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uQXV0aG9yaXR5MGYGCCsG AQUFBzAChlpodHRwOi8vcGtpLWpucHIuam5wci5uZXQvQ2VydEVucm9sbC9jYS1qbnByLmpucHIu bmV0X0p1bmlwZXIlMjBOZXR3b3JrcyUyMFJvb3QlMjBDQSg1KS5jcnQwFwYJKwYBBAGCNxQCBAoe CABVAHMAZQByMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIFoDApBgNVHSUEIjAgBgorBgEEAYI3CgMEBggrBgEFBQcDBAYI KwYBBQUHAwIwOwYDVR0RBDQwMqAfBgorBgEEAYI3FAIDoBEMD3ByekBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldIEPcHJ6 QGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MEQGCSqGSIb3DQEJDwQ3MDUwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4GCCqGSIb3DQME AgIAgDAHBgUrDgMCBzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOCAQEAdC9yFZivxqsjnW8e zR1y7aJXTwShb25JdeVwxyrsqmfIUkgIojVes61b9QEBVapN49XxAL/nF6bMqzPckj0eHyVOLqmD z0+iBT5lzfQfPXxh1WMuEgRRiM4N1585rbm229pUJBZ8IYGI0f8Q6rE1YCYU1du+uiT+Y0ioDh6i 4sZ0XwsthZYEM/SIqsyh8dyG9xKVx3KSLZztPeuoBd7zOTPQJICIblXlbLVvfbfb3+p++8vNIRBO bQASTC0VC8jKOakWxF8Ix9fmSIKwOYkZ3a7Hpcs8Cc/qiyCrY+W11PghG9h6D9ibvchFBDRHecBO YOeqFZWUvJFhyfrGcyUoEDGCBDUwggQxAgEBMIHWMIHHMSMwIQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhRjYS1hZG1p bkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxEzARBgNVBAgTCkNhbGlmb3JuaWExEjAQBgNVBAcT CVN1bm55dmFsZTEfMB0GA1UEChMWSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3JrcywgSW5jLjEmMCQGA1UECxMdSnVu aXBlciBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgNVBAMTGEp1bmlwZXIgTmV0d29ya3MgUm9v dCBDQQIKLggypQAFAAE7ZDAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIICMzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0xNzAzMjgyMzMxMjdaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBRlYsy9dlSndDQS pwua/CPgFMSREjCB5wYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMYHZMIHWMIHHMSMwIQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhRjYS1hZG1p bkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxEzARBgNVBAgTCkNhbGlmb3JuaWExEjAQBgNVBAcT CVN1bm55dmFsZTEfMB0GA1UEChMWSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3JrcywgSW5jLjEmMCQGA1UECxMdSnVu aXBlciBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgNVBAMTGEp1bmlwZXIgTmV0d29ya3MgUm9v dCBDQQIKLggypQAFAAE7ZDCB6QYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgdmggdYwgccxIzAhBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEW FGNhLWFkbWluQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTES MBAGA1UEBxMJU3Vubnl2YWxlMR8wHQYDVQQKExZKdW5pcGVyIE5ldHdvcmtzLCBJbmMuMSYwJAYD VQQLEx1KdW5pcGVyIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GA1UEAxMYSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3 b3JrcyBSb290IENBAgouCDKlAAUAATtkMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAF5TEvx1AM69Z95FwXCY v5B6qFnda9jlQIZU1RzNq2J0CxOEJBYU52uFOVVx8m3qsyPC2pqtk3bYdlYBhQfVyGZDAHtMkyPU pDhlKK0+YMYLVVqEOMLhyWHCgeWGd3OUmbbeay6NSesREn784Gxf8miuA0c4UWqgvpY+M0qKrVth y1CKXs7XNKl10kjky56bnu75Hc7mSGbglwaiordNfmwYkRF2HRTlN778SEVSVcGbcb5N9Um1nPH+ SxGoeeCSb5h9wOLg6JLay3d/MdCTJI97htZM1mnhXl9t4JBpFi3RWs8x0gG4YPG0oLznRgRlzmJU DLs/8zzloNBpATTBdD8AAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:43:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552FA126E3A for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1437; H:DM2PR0501MB1438.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2017 23:43:26.4370 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB1437 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:43:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44" --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 28, 2017, at 6:14 PM, Zhang Z wrote: >=20 > Hi Juliusz and all, > At first I must apology about the misunderstanding caused by the two = drafts. One is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D, = it was presented in Seoul meeting; it is the BIER Routing underlay = technology. The other one is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= , it was presented in this meeting. It is multicast flow overlay = technology. The two drafts focus on different aspect of BIER technology. = And the two drafts are independent though we can use them together. The = man who is not familiar with BIER will be confused about it. The first = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D had been = discussed in BIER working group and many people thought that it is worth = implemented. The second draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= is just an idea for multicast flow overlay. And the implementation that = we discussed today is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D= . > I suggest strongly that the draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-architecture-05=E2=80=9D should be read first. = You will know the meaning of Routing underlay/ BIER layer/ Multicast = Flow Overlay. The three layers are focus on different aspect of BIER = technology. Routing underlay is used to transfer BFR-id corresponding = information. There are OSPF/ ISIS/ BGP BIER extension in BIER working = group. You can find them through the link = =E2=80=9Chttps://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/ = =E2=80=9D. In fact, the draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D also belongs to = Routing underlay layer. And this draft is worth implemented first. + 10E3 > The draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D belongs to = Multicast Flow Overlay. This layer is used to transfer particular = multicast flow information. And there is also a draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D that is used to solve it. = And the =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D is the function that = we call MLD in abbreviation. > So, you will see that we can use = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D together to solve the = Routing Underlay and Multicast Flow Overlay. It is Babel + MLD solution. = And many people include me think that it is a good way to achieve the = multicast deployment. > The way that I said use one protocol to solve multicast problem is = that we use =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D at the same time. In this = situation we only use one protocol Babel to solve Routing underlay and = Multicast flow overlay. This function is just an idea. And it means = nothing if there is no situation that we can only use one protocol to = deploy multicast. overlays will be plentiful and they will be a continuum between = simplicity and scale =E2=80=A6=20 > In a word, we should consider the implementation of = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. The BIER = forwarding plane software had also been implemented by ZTE, and I think = Cisco does it also. So at first it should be considered that how to = merge Babel protocol and BIER forwarding software together. And then = implement =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. There is an interesting ongoing discussion about Linux kernel software = implementation to some extent/socket APIs =E2=80=A6=20 =E2=80=94 tony=20= --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Mar 28, 2017, at 6:14 PM, Zhang Z <zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com> wrote:

 Hi = Juliusz and all,
At first I must apology about the misunderstanding caused by = the two drafts. One is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80= =9D, it was presented in Seoul meeting; it is the BIER Routing underlay = technology. The other one is =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= , it was presented in this meeting. It is multicast flow overlay = technology. The two drafts focus on different aspect of BIER technology. = And the two drafts are independent though we can use them together. The = man who is not familiar with BIER will be confused about it. The first = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D had been = discussed in BIER working group and many people thought that it is worth = implemented. The second draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D= is just an idea for multicast flow overlay. And the implementation that = we discussed today is = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D.
I suggest strongly that the = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-architecture-05=E2=80=9D should be read = first. You will know the meaning of Routing underlay/ BIER layer/ = Multicast Flow Overlay. The three layers are focus on different aspect = of BIER technology. Routing underlay is used to transfer BFR-id = corresponding information. There are OSPF/ ISIS/ BGP BIER extension in = BIER working group. You can find them through the link =E2=80=9Chttps://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/=E2=80=9D. In fact, the = draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D also = belongs to Routing underlay layer. And this draft is worth implemented = first.

+ 10E3

The draft = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D belongs to Multicast Flow = Overlay. This layer is used to transfer particular multicast flow = information. And there is also a draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2= =80=9D that is used to solve it. And the =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-0= 3=E2=80=9D is the function that we call MLD in = abbreviation.
So, = you will see that we can use =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cdraft-pfister-bier-mld-03=E2=80=9D together to = solve the Routing Underlay and Multicast Flow Overlay. It is Babel + MLD = solution. And many people include me think that it is a good way to = achieve the multicast deployment.
The way that I said use one protocol to solve = multicast problem is that we use = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-pim-babel-ext-02=E2=80=9D at the same time. In this = situation we only use one protocol Babel to solve Routing underlay and = Multicast flow overlay. This function is just an idea. And it means = nothing if there is no situation that we can only use one protocol to = deploy multicast.

overlays will be plentiful and they will be a = continuum between simplicity and scale =E2=80=A6 

In a word, we should consider the implementation of = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D. The BIER = forwarding plane software had also been implemented by ZTE, and I think = Cisco does it also. So at first it should be considered that how to = merge Babel protocol and BIER forwarding software together. And then = implement = =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-00=E2=80=9D.
=

There is an = interesting ongoing discussion about Linux kernel software = implementation to some extent/socket APIs =E2=80=A6 

=E2=80=94 = tony 
= --Apple-Mail=_CD1D1225-9B10-4350-8A3B-8C89276F4C44-- --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIHbjCCB2ow ggZSoAMCAQICCi4IMqUABQABO2QwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgccxIzAhBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWFGNh LWFkbWluQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTESMBAG A1UEBxMJU3Vubnl2YWxlMR8wHQYDVQQKExZKdW5pcGVyIE5ldHdvcmtzLCBJbmMuMSYwJAYDVQQL Ex1KdW5pcGVyIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GA1UEAxMYSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3Jr cyBSb290IENBMB4XDTE2MDUzMDE3MDUwMFoXDTE3MDUzMDE3MDUwMFowgZgxEzARBgoJkiaJk/Is ZAEZFgNuZXQxFDASBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgRqbnByMQwwCgYDVQQLEwNFbmcxDjAMBgNVBAsTBVVz ZXJzMREwDwYDVQQLEwhBbWVyaWNhczEaMBgGA1UEAxMRQW50b25pIFByenlnaWVuZGExHjAcBgkq hkiG9w0BCQEWD3ByekBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEB ALOhfmGxyZnXFf+cGLCzOrMp/MlgdtUE0ylNqtuCssen+mIGULkhswLTbbd/n+9zWsLjX4LJDu0w BgWtg4MDGHfA+oCj+IiTXYfmOQCgHPRanPMylYuDfoJui+d99h+w/Pdlb/Ja62gPkS6kbA6MD6eS pHr8My+9zOxJuupm2e5nI6dOw5YHxp+gL9CfLCELXGqvWK40eJxECxe+rsc3mirIaGQ0jx46ka6M nWEy/7mMD7qrCersu/CzLkEp917gdVrPU6hlKWNQS+/iZffcpuJxVL+plUh4jqBzo2WML/jG1cBz ksAkwd+F57IaZ0KRkjnY5ZrX5Pv/cNyRLeyZcpcCAwEAAaOCA4MwggN/MB0GA1UdDgQWBBQOBOnT wPNwoa/0Dd1l89SzLaOGfjAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBSaKldNI6FqeM1ZjG53HY3NMc5CnDCCASwGA1Ud HwSCASMwggEfMIIBG6CCARegggEThoHFbGRhcDovLy9DTj1KdW5pcGVyJTIwTmV0d29ya3MlMjBS b290JTIwQ0EoNSksQ049Y2Etam5wcixDTj1DRFAsQ049UHVibGljJTIwS2V5JTIwU2VydmljZXMs Q049U2VydmljZXMsQ049Q29uZmlndXJhdGlvbixEQz1qbnByLERDPW5ldD9jZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZVJl dm9jYXRpb25MaXN0P2Jhc2U/b2JqZWN0Q2xhc3M9Y1JMRGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uUG9pbnSGSWh0dHA6 Ly9wa2ktam5wci5qbnByLm5ldC9DZXJ0RW5yb2xsL0p1bmlwZXIlMjBOZXR3b3JrcyUyMFJvb3Ql MjBDQSg1KS5jcmwwggE3BggrBgEFBQcBAQSCASkwggElMIG6BggrBgEFBQcwAoaBrWxkYXA6Ly8v Q049SnVuaXBlciUyME5ldHdvcmtzJTIwUm9vdCUyMENBLENOPUFJQSxDTj1QdWJsaWMlMjBLZXkl MjBTZXJ2aWNlcyxDTj1TZXJ2aWNlcyxDTj1Db25maWd1cmF0aW9uLERDPWpucHIsREM9bmV0P2NB Q2VydGlmaWNhdGU/YmFzZT9vYmplY3RDbGFzcz1jZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uQXV0aG9yaXR5MGYGCCsG AQUFBzAChlpodHRwOi8vcGtpLWpucHIuam5wci5uZXQvQ2VydEVucm9sbC9jYS1qbnByLmpucHIu bmV0X0p1bmlwZXIlMjBOZXR3b3JrcyUyMFJvb3QlMjBDQSg1KS5jcnQwFwYJKwYBBAGCNxQCBAoe CABVAHMAZQByMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIFoDApBgNVHSUEIjAgBgorBgEEAYI3CgMEBggrBgEFBQcDBAYI KwYBBQUHAwIwOwYDVR0RBDQwMqAfBgorBgEEAYI3FAIDoBEMD3ByekBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldIEPcHJ6 QGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MEQGCSqGSIb3DQEJDwQ3MDUwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4GCCqGSIb3DQME AgIAgDAHBgUrDgMCBzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOCAQEAdC9yFZivxqsjnW8e zR1y7aJXTwShb25JdeVwxyrsqmfIUkgIojVes61b9QEBVapN49XxAL/nF6bMqzPckj0eHyVOLqmD z0+iBT5lzfQfPXxh1WMuEgRRiM4N1585rbm229pUJBZ8IYGI0f8Q6rE1YCYU1du+uiT+Y0ioDh6i 4sZ0XwsthZYEM/SIqsyh8dyG9xKVx3KSLZztPeuoBd7zOTPQJICIblXlbLVvfbfb3+p++8vNIRBO bQASTC0VC8jKOakWxF8Ix9fmSIKwOYkZ3a7Hpcs8Cc/qiyCrY+W11PghG9h6D9ibvchFBDRHecBO YOeqFZWUvJFhyfrGcyUoEDGCBDUwggQxAgEBMIHWMIHHMSMwIQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhRjYS1hZG1p bkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxEzARBgNVBAgTCkNhbGlmb3JuaWExEjAQBgNVBAcT CVN1bm55dmFsZTEfMB0GA1UEChMWSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3JrcywgSW5jLjEmMCQGA1UECxMdSnVu aXBlciBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgNVBAMTGEp1bmlwZXIgTmV0d29ya3MgUm9v dCBDQQIKLggypQAFAAE7ZDAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIICMzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcB MBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0xNzAzMjgyMzMxMjdaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBRlYsy9dlSndDQS pwua/CPgFMSREjCB5wYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMYHZMIHWMIHHMSMwIQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhRjYS1hZG1p bkBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxEzARBgNVBAgTCkNhbGlmb3JuaWExEjAQBgNVBAcT CVN1bm55dmFsZTEfMB0GA1UEChMWSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3b3JrcywgSW5jLjEmMCQGA1UECxMdSnVu aXBlciBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgNVBAMTGEp1bmlwZXIgTmV0d29ya3MgUm9v dCBDQQIKLggypQAFAAE7ZDCB6QYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgdmggdYwgccxIzAhBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEW FGNhLWFkbWluQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTES MBAGA1UEBxMJU3Vubnl2YWxlMR8wHQYDVQQKExZKdW5pcGVyIE5ldHdvcmtzLCBJbmMuMSYwJAYD VQQLEx1KdW5pcGVyIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GA1UEAxMYSnVuaXBlciBOZXR3 b3JrcyBSb290IENBAgouCDKlAAUAATtkMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAF5TEvx1AM69Z95FwXCY v5B6qFnda9jlQIZU1RzNq2J0CxOEJBYU52uFOVVx8m3qsyPC2pqtk3bYdlYBhQfVyGZDAHtMkyPU pDhlKK0+YMYLVVqEOMLhyWHCgeWGd3OUmbbeay6NSesREn784Gxf8miuA0c4UWqgvpY+M0qKrVth y1CKXs7XNKl10kjky56bnu75Hc7mSGbglwaiordNfmwYkRF2HRTlN778SEVSVcGbcb5N9Um1nPH+ SxGoeeCSb5h9wOLg6JLay3d/MdCTJI97htZM1mnhXl9t4JBpFi3RWs8x0gG4YPG0oLznRgRlzmJU DLs/8zzloNBpATTBdD8AAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail=_8D44A7E9-8DE7-44F6-9059-4C90FA23621D-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 17:09:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E2D126BFD for ; 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Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:09:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.140.8 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:09:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:09:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alia Atlas Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn, Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 00:09:56 -0000 On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Take a look at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-architecture > and > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation. > The latter allows use over Ethernet (despite the old draft title). The I= Pv6 > encapsulation does not have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't discussed th= is > IETF. Even after reading more, I don't really "get it". The list of use cases https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases do not include most of babel's existing ones - I don't imagine more than 5 tvs per household carrying the superbowl, nor a home with thousands of cameras and hard disks streaming. At a data-center or city-scale, I can see how some of this technology would be helpful (but it's still difficult for me to wrap my head around using up 4096 bits in a single message) Furthermore, babel is a dv protocol and doesn't need to carry all that many bits, all the time. One bit pointing at the multicast superbowl group within the local network would be enough. I will read on, and perhaps enlightenment will strike. > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> ... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well >> still be overly ignorant, but read on. >> >> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> > Dear Sandy, dear all, >> > >> > I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to >> > experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at least >> > two >> > approaches worth considering: >> > >> > - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; >> > - use MLD with Babel. >> > >> > I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is >> > clearly >> > attractive to run a single protocol. >> > >> > As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your >> > encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for >> > BIER, >> > but of course someone would need to write it down and check the detail= s. >> >> However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft seem= s >> straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects >> elsewhere in babel. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6 >> >> 4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks >> everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything >> else), >> >> while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like >> how the new source specific ae is formed. >> >> if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on >> linux, or other use cases, please point me at em! >> >> > As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if the= re >> > were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draf= t. >> > I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence no= r >> > the manpower to do the implementation on my own. >> > >> > -- Juliusz >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > babel mailing list >> > babel@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >> >> >> >> -- >> Dave T=C3=A4ht >> Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! >> http://blog.cerowrt.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> babel mailing list >> babel@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org From SRS0=MjIg=3G=darou.fr=pierre.pfister@bounces.m4x.org Tue Mar 28 20:50:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CEA127058 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eo42rz1Oqwy1 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.polytechnique.org (mx1.polytechnique.org [129.104.30.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD6481292AE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.85.164.58] (unknown [173.38.117.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ssl.polytechnique.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D2745647F0; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 05:50:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Pierre Pfister Message-Id: <55A890AF-0A24-4A3E-9419-DA734DB73231@darou.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_55CAD23B-FC18-45EA-B62A-851EF204F41F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:50:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Babel at IETF , Juliusz Chroboczek To: Alia Atlas , Dave Taht References: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP at svoboda.polytechnique.org (Wed Mar 29 05:50:46 2017 +0200 (CEST)) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 03:51:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_55CAD23B-FC18-45EA-B62A-851EF204F41F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Alia and Dave, > Le 28 mars 2017 =C3=A0 18:06, Alia Atlas a =C3=A9cri= t : >=20 > Hi Dave, >=20 > Take a look at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-architecture = > and = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation = = . > The latter allows use over Ethernet (despite the old draft title). = The IPv6 encapsulation does not have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't = discussed this IETF. It was not discussed this IETF indeed, but was discussed the ietf = before, and very extensively during the design team meeting. I wouldn't = dare contradicting the responsible AD, but although we can objectively = say that the document hasn't been adopted (he has been presented only = once), saying that it has no "WG agreement" is more prone to discussion. = I would be happy to see more discussion on BIER ML about that. Anyway... More interesting information for Dave inlined ... >=20 > Regards, > Alia >=20 > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht > wrote: > ... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well > still be overly ignorant, but read on. >=20 > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek > wrote: > > Dear Sandy, dear all, > > > > I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to > > experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at = least two > > approaches worth considering: > > > > - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; > > - use MLD with Babel. > > > > I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is = clearly > > attractive to run a single protocol. > > > > As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your > > encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for = BIER, > > but of course someone would need to write it down and check the = details. >=20 > However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft = seems > straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects > elsewhere in babel. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6 = >=20 > 4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks > everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything > else), >=20 > while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like > how the new source specific ae is formed. 256 is the minimum requirement for BIER over MPLS and Ethernet. There was discussion and, IMHO, consensus, that the minimum bit-string = length requirement would depend on the encap used. Obviously, in the case of bier-over-ipv6, 256 doesn't make sense. 4096 = even less so. Using BIERoIPv6, bitstring lengths between 32 and 64 are more = reasonable. >=20 > if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on > linux, or other use cases, please point me at em! I implemented a very rudimentary version of BIERoIPv6 a while ago, for = testing and learning purposes: https://github.com/Oryon/bier6 But this implementation has nothing to do with Babel, or Zhang's = proposal. Cheers, - Pierre >=20 > > As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if = there > > were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your = draft. > > I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence = nor > > the manpower to do the implementation on my own. > > > > -- Juliusz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > babel mailing list > > babel@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel = >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Dave T=C3=A4ht > Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! > http://blog.cerowrt.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --Apple-Mail=_55CAD23B-FC18-45EA-B62A-851EF204F41F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hello Alia and Dave,

Le = 28 mars 2017 =C3=A0 18:06, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> a = =C3=A9crit :

Hi Dave,

Take a look at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-architect= ure
and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-enca= psulation.
The latter allows use over Ethernet = (despite the old draft title).  The IPv6 encapsulation does not = have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't discussed this = IETF.

It = was not discussed this IETF indeed, but was discussed the ietf before, = and very extensively during the design team meeting. I wouldn't dare = contradicting the responsible AD, but although we can objectively say = that the document hasn't been adopted (he has been presented only once), = saying that it has no "WG agreement" is more prone to discussion. I = would be happy to see more discussion on BIER ML about = that.

Anyway... More interesting = information for Dave inlined ...


Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> = wrote:
... up until this = moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well
still be overly ignorant, but read on.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> Dear Sandy, dear all,
>
> I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting = to
> experiment with BIER and Babel.  As you explained, there are = at least two
> approaches worth considering:
>
>   - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your = draft suggests;
>   - use MLD with Babel.
>
> I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is = clearly
> attractive to run a single protocol.
>
> As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with = your
> encoding.  My personal intuition would be to use a new AE = number for BIER,
> but of course someone would need to write it down and check the = details.

However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core = draft seems
straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects
elsewhere in babel.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6

4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks
everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything
else),

while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like
how the new source specific ae is formed.

256 is the minimum requirement for BIER over MPLS = and Ethernet.
There was discussion and, IMHO, consensus, that = the minimum bit-string length
requirement would depend on the = encap used.
Obviously, in the case of bier-over-ipv6, 256 = doesn't make sense. 4096 even less so.
Using BIERoIPv6, = bitstring lengths between 32 and 64 are more reasonable.


if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on
linux, or other use cases, please point me at em!

I implemented a very rudimentary version of = BIERoIPv6 a while ago, for testing and learning purposes:

But this implementation has nothing to do with = Babel, or Zhang's proposal.

Cheers,

- = Pierre


> As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if = there
> were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your = draft.
> I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence = nor
> the manpower to do the implementation on my own.
>
> -- Juliusz
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel



--
Dave T=C3=A4ht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

_______________________________________________
babel = mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

= --Apple-Mail=_55CAD23B-FC18-45EA-B62A-851EF204F41F-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 11:34:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B7B129455 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCHgjzN9Lv9R for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 125C5120046 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id l43so28235148wre.1 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G7qYwlf7n+tJYVCw3Tgyn6HC5odilwNMpqbp3snnygU=; b=PkQdjGeiNPxNRkLerpiv4L+a6F+YUChthWGDWGcvvaSCV+5/8hGKih/YHvAUEY+K56 8vZm8iBmKMTN79Y7EqbgGmwadtG2sM9z7dhO4/LXFyPFC4jGHzuppW9jv6b3ja2zkFua Lwl5HuRIsGt+Y32GwWX4piVmIekx6GgxPcNibFXV7SwgH2HrStTxGL8RkhaLAmc7Xj9d dNKuHdVKpxTRRdYqN+jTbR2xVg/AtrQvK0Oc9JvpPF2oAmlHRvhPzO31YR45k23pR1D/ VfTdKawiaeIY3JIz1oXczVleB1nFpAA0enxztZ54ice19W+Jx+ePfElPcAzFWHDGa8y4 3eJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G7qYwlf7n+tJYVCw3Tgyn6HC5odilwNMpqbp3snnygU=; b=U41YpLWspxx6pKY62MscipvTEgUFCYXoAw6pujmC2uAzWcg0FH5ZQ9HVFLOSu1IMqT jV8Eu7xRlQNBslNgxZR+O5t4bBbgorMSRJJZ3joh6nNIfOqKYDA5laXNDFJErR+SpMfq 3p19sNjptUxzMh5PJDyUc0GyehBoAHU58Clqy62++efda8P5tC2rhUSeAjr+9fwt+6Gu SjnBtVhr2AUOq/2oZ02UK8R2ai0hDWYk4SATq8hR2WzUTWQsMFtaYtvHVvM9Ns9daGEE fDX1o6c5OIyXqNpF4XbdrXTrWhF27SQXt1Iak5aJeMbpn6vzp2CwIMVAx2s6E1rkb5IP ijmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1xbsgHNqXkIHoia2EkjiinPubaEPbzfi5dNGH7bgLIVMXQQLmeAeJIqchVG0IS0y2XJBBryqq5iVYSLQ== X-Received: by 10.28.86.68 with SMTP id k65mr2076023wmb.112.1490812463345; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.145.68 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55A890AF-0A24-4A3E-9419-DA734DB73231@darou.fr> References: <87shlxyvqe.wl-jch@irif.fr> <55A890AF-0A24-4A3E-9419-DA734DB73231@darou.fr> From: Alia Atlas Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:34:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Pierre Pfister Cc: Dave Taht , "zhang.zheng" , Babel at IETF , Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11453e564e02e6054be2d3aa Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] About BIER in Babel X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:34:30 -0000 --001a11453e564e02e6054be2d3aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pierre, Just to clarify - of course the bier over IPv6 is an interesting draft that the WG has discussed - in some aspects extensively. There were also aspects that needed consultation with 6man. It is still an individual draft. I'm glad to hear about the implementation, of course. :-) Regards, Alia On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Pierre Pfister wrote: > Hello Alia and Dave, > > Le 28 mars 2017 =C3=A0 18:06, Alia Atlas a =C3=A9crit= : > > Hi Dave, > > Take a look at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier- > architecture > and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier- > mpls-encapsulation. > The latter allows use over Ethernet (despite the old draft title). The > IPv6 encapsulation does not have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't discuss= ed > this IETF. > > > It was not discussed this IETF indeed, but was discussed the ietf before, > and very extensively during the design team meeting. I wouldn't dare > contradicting the responsible AD, but although we can objectively say tha= t > the document hasn't been adopted (he has been presented only once), sayin= g > that it has no "WG agreement" is more prone to discussion. I would be hap= py > to see more discussion on BIER ML about that. > > Anyway... More interesting information for Dave inlined ... > > > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > >> ... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well >> still be overly ignorant, but read on. >> >> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> > Dear Sandy, dear all, >> > >> > I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to >> > experiment with BIER and Babel. As you explained, there are at least >> two >> > approaches worth considering: >> > >> > - announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft suggests; >> > - use MLD with Babel. >> > >> > I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is >> clearly >> > attractive to run a single protocol. >> > >> > As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your >> > encoding. My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number for >> BIER, >> > but of course someone would need to write it down and check the detail= s. >> >> However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft seem= s >> straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects >> elsewhere in babel. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6 >> >> 4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks >> everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything >> else), >> >> while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like >> how the new source specific ae is formed. >> > > 256 is the minimum requirement for BIER over MPLS and Ethernet. > There was discussion and, IMHO, consensus, that the minimum bit-string > length > requirement would depend on the encap used. > Obviously, in the case of bier-over-ipv6, 256 doesn't make sense. 4096 > even less so. > Using BIERoIPv6, bitstring lengths between 32 and 64 are more reasonable. > > >> if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on >> linux, or other use cases, please point me at em! >> > > I implemented a very rudimentary version of BIERoIPv6 a while ago, for > testing and learning purposes: > https://github.com/Oryon/bier6 > > But this implementation has nothing to do with Babel, or Zhang's proposal= . > > Cheers, > > - Pierre > > >> > As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if the= re >> > were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draf= t. >> > I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence no= r >> > the manpower to do the implementation on my own. >> > >> > -- Juliusz >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > babel mailing list >> > babel@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >> >> >> >> -- >> Dave T=C3=A4ht >> Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! >> http://blog.cerowrt.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> babel mailing list >> babel@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel >> > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > > --001a11453e564e02e6054be2d3aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pierre,

Just to clarify - of course the= bier over IPv6 is an interesting draft that the WG has discussed - in some= aspects extensively.=C2=A0 There were also aspects that needed consultatio= n with 6man.=C2=A0 It is still an individual draft.

I'm glad to hear about the implementation, of course. :-)
<= br>
Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:50 PM, Pierre Pf= ister <pierre.pfister@darou.fr> wrote:
Hello Alia and = Dave,

Le 28 m= ars 2017 =C3=A0 18:06, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :

= Hi Dave,

The = latter allows use over Ethernet (despite the old draft title).=C2=A0 The IP= v6 encapsulation does not have WG agreement to adopt and wasn't discuss= ed this IETF.

It w= as not discussed this IETF indeed, but was discussed the ietf before, and v= ery extensively during the design team meeting. I wouldn't dare contrad= icting the responsible AD, but although we can objectively say that the doc= ument hasn't been adopted (he has been presented only once), saying tha= t it has no "WG agreement" is more prone to discussion. I would b= e happy to see more discussion on BIER ML about that.

<= div>Anyway... More interesting information for Dave inlined ...
<= div class=3D"h5">
<= br>
Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Dave Taht = <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
... up until this moment I was mostly ignorant of bier. I may well
still be overly ignorant, but read on.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> Dear Sandy, dear all,
>
> I think there are very good reasons why it would be interesting to
> experiment with BIER and Babel.=C2=A0 As you explained, there are at l= east two
> approaches worth considering:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- announce BIER routing directly in Babel, as your draft s= uggests;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- use MLD with Babel.
>
> I am not competent to judge which approach is suitable, but it is clea= rly
> attractive to run a single protocol.
>
> As I mentioned at the mike, there are a number of problems with your > encoding.=C2=A0 My personal intuition would be to use a new AE number = for BIER,
> but of course someone would need to write it down and check the detail= s.

However, leveraging this encoding over the others in the core draft = seems
straightforward to encapsulate into an ae with no afteraffects
elsewhere in babel.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6

4096 bits (maximum requirement for bier), on the other hand, breaks
everything (babel mtu requirement while still fitting in everything
else),

while (the minimum requirement) of 256 bits may well look a lot like
how the new source specific ae is formed.

256 is the minimum requiremen= t for BIER over MPLS and Ethernet.
There was discussion and, IMHO= , consensus, that the minimum bit-string length
requirement would= depend on the encap used.
Obviously, in the case of bier-over-ip= v6, 256 doesn't make sense. 4096 even less so.
Using BIERoIPv= 6, bitstring lengths between 32 and 64 are more reasonable.


if there are other docs in that wg worth reading, running code on
linux, or other use cases, please point me at em!

I implemented a very rudim= entary version of BIERoIPv6 a while ago, for testing and learning purposes:=

But this implement= ation has nothing to do with Babel, or Zhang's proposal.

=
Cheers,

- Pierre
=

> As David mentioned, some of us would feel much more comfortable if the= re
> were a prototype implementation before we are asked to adopt your draf= t.
> I would be interested in helping, but I have neither the competence no= r
> the manpower to do the implementation on my own.
>
> -- Juliusz
>
> _______________________________________________
> babel mailing list
> babel@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel=



--
Dave T=C3=A4ht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
h= ttp://blog.cerowrt.org

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list<= br>babel@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel


--001a11453e564e02e6054be2d3aa--