From nobody Sun Feb 4 07:29:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE8412702E for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 07:29:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q4-uKpiVDU16 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 07:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ABDE127010 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 07:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w14FT2EU019927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:29:02 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id w14FT30K013885 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:29:03 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF50EB29C for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:29:02 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id pi05LdD251QI for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:29:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.250.219.58]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C8AAEB28B for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:28:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 16:28:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sun, 04 Feb 2018 16:29:02 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sun, 04 Feb 2018 16:29:03 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A7726BE.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5A7726BF.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7726BE.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7726BF.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7726BE.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7726BF.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 15:29:07 -0000 Hi, I'm looking at my implementation of rfc6126bis, and I'm still not sure I like Uniast Hellos. The current specification says that Unicast Hellos MAY be silently ignored, and that an implementation SHOULD send periodic Multicast Hellos. But then, if an implementation sends Multicast Hellos, why would it additionally send Unicast Hellos? Note further that: (1) ordinary Hellos can be sent over unicast, although they must be sent to all neighbours on a given interface at roughly the same time; (2) Unicast Hellos cannot be used for discovery, so an implementation needs to use Multicast Hellos at any rate unless discovery is performed by means outside of the protocol (e.g. statically configured set of neighbours). Note however that discovery can be done using unscheduled Hellos. Toke, David, I'm particularly interested in hearing about your implementation experiences. -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Feb 5 09:06:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0473E1273B1 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tV5Fvt74uOK2 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.151.62.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EB0A1271DF for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:06:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1517850372; x=2381763972; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=1qD+8UCP16foPKo9yCzKeqqBhBX7wrp4h8Rc96jp7s0=; b=VoNMcGNWHoDefh5+l//Qn1p/bgnku+9u8W+C/G+jooDEw6BkJ0C/W0OOp3di9eKl hx5FBXgflr7Ap3zHVecsEn9LEr8o+h9RI5DWEDP2VGBSslYVv6Boi+iTpU1wUlj2 Fuh0yDN12F6fBR4lcuDB08pWcoOvlEOiULNi2K2/FRPQZMQQ5ui8hhrpnDMemEN9 xxN/38Ddqz+JlCyUpQWPSjhpf25BMfIo6e7OZZ8PyJTryv5dY3thFkmOIZq+jM1s IVAkzhSACmh1fvgIZrkOO+WeCsF3WImxBxWRbY4stSFjD8zQ8cbAhMCqXxENUZkp sDXkBlpIhayqDDksb/DssQ==; Received: from relay3.apple.com (relay3.apple.com [17.128.113.83]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in4.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id F3.59.10621.30F887A5; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e12-c67d59e00000297d-6e-5a788f032a4b Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id B3.C0.18185.30F887A5; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.234.127.199] (unknown [17.234.127.199]) by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180122 64bit (built Jan 22 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P3O00GG8SU70S60@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 09:06:06 -0800 Cc: babel@ietf.org Message-id: <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrMvcXxFl0HPUxmLLom4Wi/mty9gc mDyWLPnJ5LF4y1vGAKYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsEroz9zycxFawXqNh+5TVzA+N03i5GTg4JAROJ VRd3sHQxcnEICaxmkui/cpoVJrHi+3cmiMQhRonDHbuYQBK8AoISPybfA+rg4GAWkJc4eF4W JMwsoCXx/VEr1KDJTBIXn0AMEhaQlui6cBfK1pS4tm4JK0gvG1DDgTVGICangIbEpl45EJNF QFXi9bEYiIlCEmeuzWCBWGojMafnGtgBQgLqEnv27gAbKCKgIrF82jN2iIuVJKZ/v80GcoGE wF9WiQcv/7NMYBSeheToWQhHz0Jy9AJG5lWMQrmJmTm6mXkmeokFBTmpesn5uZsYQUE93U5o B+OpVVaHGAU4GJV4eAUyKqKEWBPLiitzDzFKc7AoifMql5RGCQmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQW H2Jk4uCUamCMOZX4a7GCWMYOUf2MnT1C5xZ0HJ/Hv57v2wS/E0LvxP76GPFJmor+eV21WDqh 3HV5yzXx3jtOv05zC5x+wquU3P7wa8yECf1s7x3aa2+Lph2yyXyfIK3acHu60xp3yws1z0++ MVGNWfnTorKmaG/Yx5VOd1p9LKwtkq+8frpx/6GOTss9q44psRRnJBpqMRcVJwIAijBfSksC AAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FA8W5e5vyLK4OcTC4sti7pZLOa3LmNz YPJYsuQnk8fiLW8ZA5iiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDL2P5/EVLBeoGL7ldfMDYzTebsYOTkkBEwk Vnz/ztTFyMUhJHCIUeJwxy4mkASvgKDEj8n3WLoYOTiYBeQlDp6XBQkzC2hJfH/UygJRP5lJ 4uKT06wgCWEBaYmuC3ehbE2Ja+uWsIL0sgE1HFhjBGJyCmhIbOqVAzFZBFQlXh+LgZgoJHHm 2gwWiKU2EnN6roEdICSgLrFn7w6wgSICKhLLpz1jh7hYSWL699tsExgFZiG5cxbCnbOQ3LmA kXkVo0BRak5ipbFeYkFBTqpecn7uJkZwEBYG72D8s8zqEKMAB6MSD69ARkWUEGtiWXFlLjAg OJiVRHidrpdHCfGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREuc9olQUJSSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCU amDUML3lz+IW3MHm7NAmtyeleNnsgIy819kr5afPZooz3KG58tfbO6L7T51cPWeBoNMmFfNb lp85o3d9Z0yImv5w+tPS4pTZH/ae/SgUv2iR1Pe1T5LmxDfsXPZQ887knpcvC5av+LGC467i ytMmvHdLD5csXpRVN//Y8gqJjOI5an8Fc3sWOsTZKbEUZyQaajEXFScCAHPZfSk+AgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 17:06:14 -0000 Hi Juliusz, For the Homenet use case, I would consider using unscheduled multicast hellos for discovery and unicast hellos (over DTLS) for bidirectional reachability detection. You could adapt this for other use cases by replacing unscheduled multicast hellos by an out-of-band discovery mechanism when suitable. This gives you the flexibility of not having to send hellos to all neighbors on one link at the same frequency. I see this as pretty useful on a Wi-Fi link where some of your neighbors are plugged in to power and listening for Wi-Fi 100% of the time but some other battery-powered neighbors keep their radios off significant portions of the time and would rather not process packets nearly as often. I don't have real-world experience measuring these performance tradeoffs, but the Babel over DTLS interop should be a good way to confirm that it works. David > On Feb 4, 2018, at 07:28, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm looking at my implementation of rfc6126bis, and I'm still not sure > I like Uniast Hellos. > > The current specification says that Unicast Hellos MAY be silently > ignored, and that an implementation SHOULD send periodic Multicast Hellos. > But then, if an implementation sends Multicast Hellos, why would it > additionally send Unicast Hellos? > > Note further that: > > (1) ordinary Hellos can be sent over unicast, although they must be sent to > all neighbours on a given interface at roughly the same time; > (2) Unicast Hellos cannot be used for discovery, so an implementation > needs to use Multicast Hellos at any rate unless discovery is > performed by means outside of the protocol (e.g. statically > configured set of neighbours). Note however that discovery can be > done using unscheduled Hellos. > > Toke, David, I'm particularly interested in hearing about your implementation > experiences. > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Tue Feb 6 12:18:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883AA12773A for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1b0eqMaOdtLS for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A17A8127876 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1517948302; bh=GXN8tM32qulXHwQmiy04hXxmYBDuwo1ZYSfVtSx2rLw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=EMbkC2r+VukUCHy/kHIH1x2qYZUBv4AM0x1qDm0jAOjoiKF9Iwb1Qj6JyKXbS6Ci7 B9oN8Zq7XazSsFHMO/Y0CSsM1RMioCIKYwRpvgV1PYnoAhlKNcjsY0JS+kgQVhjODS qQTspubCip72+jYbhhbgFSz7B5Ro4Lg6/yUsnDg5kAzGGWyMXk4mvsBchAwy40/Hvp HT7L0ORcR0LiZiigX/EpUGhhXG+o9oxzkS00N47TATsnS2U7F6H+QNTtRYn/yPq4SE eQ3KJF5sNKLKTwCKy8qCPaw/BEr+1OTwmfpinuqrQZrvy/wTof8n7JqBQ3WNzaZpqe VIAdxRjNPhYfQ== To: David Schinazi , Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 21:18:22 +0100 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 20:18:28 -0000 David Schinazi writes: > Hi Juliusz, > > For the Homenet use case, I would consider using unscheduled multicast > hellos for discovery and unicast hellos (over DTLS) for bidirectional > reachability detection. You could adapt this for other use cases by > replacing unscheduled multicast hellos by an out-of-band discovery > mechanism when suitable. This gives you the flexibility of not having > to send hellos to all neighbors on one link at the same frequency. I > see this as pretty useful on a Wi-Fi link where some of your neighbors > are plugged in to power and listening for Wi-Fi 100% of the time but > some other battery-powered neighbors keep their radios off significant > portions of the time and would rather not process packets nearly as > often. Yeah, more or less what David is saying: For my (planned) use case, I also assume out of band discovery; and having the flexibility to not send hellos to everyone at the same time seems like a useful feature to have :) -Toke From nobody Wed Feb 7 04:56:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C6B126C83 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 04:56:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BocV_P1jbU_J for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 04:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFD14126C22 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 04:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w17CuQFV011394; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:56:26 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C68EB335; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:56:26 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id L3fpNCCok4je; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:56:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.250.46.254]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7937EB334; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:56:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 13:56:24 +0100 Message-ID: <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Toke =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= Cc: David Schinazi , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 07 Feb 2018 13:56:26 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A7AF77A.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7AF77A.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7AF77A.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 12:56:34 -0000 >> For the Homenet use case, I would consider using unscheduled multicast >> hellos for discovery and unicast hellos (over DTLS) for bidirectional >> reachability detection. I think this might cause two problems: (1) it would break interoperability with implementations that ignore unicast Hellos, which is explicitly allowed by the current spec; (2) it breaks link-quality estimation over wifi, since unicast packets are sent with ARQ. I'm not sure if (1) is a problem -- perhaps we don't care about interoperability with non-Homenet routers --, but (2) certainly is. > For my (planned) use case, I also assume out of band discovery; and > having the flexibility to not send hellos to everyone at the same time > seems like a useful feature to have :) I have no problem with out-of-band discovery, which I think is a reasonable thing to do in many environments (point-to-point VPNs being the obvious example). What does bother me is that there is no way to know whether the link partner does grok Unicast Hellos -- if you've done out-of-band discovery and the peer ignores your Unicast Hellos you're out of luck. (Note further that in the obvious case -- point-to-point links -- you've got only one link partner, so you might as well send Multicast Hellos over Unicast.) So my current thinking (which is likely to change) is that we done one of the following: (1) either we make reception (but not emission) of Unicast Hellos compulsory, or at least a strongly worded SHOULD; (2) or we drop Unicast Hellos from rfc6126bis, say that implementations MUST silently ignore Hellos with the Unicast bit set, and define Unicast Hellos in draft-hoiland-schinazi-babel-unicast-hellos. Note that neither of these actually changes the protocol -- they just make it clear whether we're serious about Unicast Hellos (case 1) or whether we merely consider them as a compatible extension that should only be used in closed environments such as Homenet. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Feb 7 08:25:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F178112D7FC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:25:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Ooa0BKUal5w for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F75C12E041 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id y204so1799198qkb.10 for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=2hd4Z4NOnuZq+EdAtywhQKTEsVe5NxZpWcOgwwCFn34=; b=PnPXwehjF59QyzMQIs5gNnRI9C62NOk6qakAuUwZTxQHoAWzsovVaVjO0ldIvE1vL3 mWqsVrieMYTOo2j4WBGoxbTaiQewZeY+voQMODEMTpPpc6DWwebu7AGAI6bFW56pTiDJ Yl6BIeTp+tkONsnWmSv/Ur2+yVm3MHvJi0sMgGGJ1xypeQGLAu2Ad7iOXQW80w6hm+t0 6JcRwS02mp2nkxioNXeFtSHLZ7Wbu7lETSMdI1sonwkFGOvOrOt7jw/ZLZ5WyGgh9+tA DmV0WUYT8fpGjS6RPgV/eOMciGC//f1JevXFmAbtWCi5a+obtFTph/DEKfJLQfpT091c rkpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=2hd4Z4NOnuZq+EdAtywhQKTEsVe5NxZpWcOgwwCFn34=; b=kIdVrZljtqhVNGCzhy8LQ7lPqY4PkFb0rfU2KsVm0yxUiMCs7tgBZr0de6ny4hzTGH p8EXEKNavm/uIbiPG6e9t5BHdgp2f24sP84aZ3DzMK93F4cl4BpwCS/Pcib6oEnuzUiW gmQYUV3vjrVY1VmT3zHRtMCWqx+Zoa/wRuOqpRJXCcwfIh2SDOFKIXL04icc5oRObILU vEWLMpC6mW8TGgjo5j9rB0E7qwrPTj873SRK/teqmGxZBchv443cghCEU0YZ4YKoMuva zudlwZQTOKEEMEOcEdDcmZ8eTVp00Qq1tmd5oxeK3SIP4G/eF32Yb87+HpWk+mFNsiDe Cvew== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBuy7XaIfhypi4RpRDg+yLfDVa6vVtJpyCj8/t2SXI8QipHMHXQ GtLWSirbZXEXQO//UitQlKE++Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226Sp6G2dyMkwWeN8X+HqzTcL+tMYTBu6kRP/8b5n6v2I6zabOXLvqSipa5yjFH3rSjKxpP3Pw== X-Received: by 10.55.133.71 with SMTP id h68mr9246935qkd.106.1518020755568; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:25:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e46sm1359642qte.9.2018.02.07.08.25.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:25:54 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5656EA10-5649-4CEA-A103-32C879747F9A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:25:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= , David Schinazi , babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 16:25:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5656EA10-5649-4CEA-A103-32C879747F9A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:56 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > (2) it breaks link-quality estimation over wifi, since unicast packets > are sent with ARQ. Is there a way to detect the latency caused by ARQ? --Apple-Mail=_5656EA10-5649-4CEA-A103-32C879747F9A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Feb 7, 2018, at 7:56 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
 (2) it breaks = link-quality estimation over wifi, since unicast packets
     are sent with = ARQ.

Is = there a way to detect the latency caused by ARQ?

= --Apple-Mail=_5656EA10-5649-4CEA-A103-32C879747F9A-- From nobody Wed Feb 7 09:24:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4521242F7 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:23:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuOyG-fjd5Qo for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in21.apple.com (mail-out21.apple.com [17.171.2.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123BB12D851 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:23:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1518024224; x=2381937824; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=URUFiCIW+ZqZDFcbMqWHHYsluToWI18I4JfcMRCuLeY=; b=psQg4dgGw5qGCVMc57tVLCmIROWz8WSpJ1i/zLBr2ruPIgYC0btZlZQUURzJTnHB xWViOEhMiPifXoN9HhMtDlM9MMOOv2PdfdNvAOVPtWtaj4ThM4/4aTH6VYzA1zAW xMA7e/dh2FV9zlPKSukzayTPtbRttCTGmv67kLnMyF4d4VwAHi/ZyjKKnA/pNYML aSFDuqnLnZzvoC3QkA2aA3eUD0Eo+Y102Nzv/F2xfQe5Lh9CdF8aatdr+PPClvmx nnHQX2va5sTouf2G6y3ezWbuVf6tkDZtEwHN///ANJFRvp6TG/U3Do3mWUX36+Cu fkwSRBsa8q+2LCBTyUmRew==; Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.88]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in21.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 15.AB.03684.F163B7A5; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:23:44 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11ab0215-4d5ff70000000e64-a6-5a7b361fc237 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com [17.128.115.122]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id C0.94.23499.F163B7A5; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:23:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.226.23.89] (unknown [17.226.23.89]) by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180122 64bit (built Jan 22 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P3S003F3IZI9M10@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 09:23:43 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 09:23:42 -0800 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= , Babel at IETF Message-id: <907CD68C-E453-40D7-B4B1-D73E0A06660F@apple.com> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> To: Juliusz Chroboczek , Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYoatgVh1l8GAxt8WWRd0sFvNbl7FZ vFlzhMli6/sV7A4sHk0XlrF7LFnyk8lj8Za3jB5bDl1kC2CJ4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mq4d+YA U8El2YpP97cwNzDeEu9i5OSQEDCReHZ7CQuILSSwhkli6SM/mHjL2WOMXYxcQPFDjBKrJzSA FfEKCEr8mHwPyObgYBaQlzh4XhYkzCygJfH9USsLRH0/k8ScD5PB6oUFpCW6LtxlhbA1Ja6t W8IK0ssG1HBgjRGIySlgK/HmdwpIBYuAqsSOC5+ZIUYmSvTd/cMKsdVGYmrzXRa4c7Yee84G khARcJL4fPUBC8TNShLTv99mAymSEJjBJnHrRivbBEbhWUjOnoVw9iwkZy9gZF7FKJybmJmj m5lnZKiXWFCQk6qXnJ+7iREUAauZRHcwzn9leIhRgINRiYfXYENllBBrYllxZe4hRmkOFiVx 3kjlrCghgfTEktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjCXrJX9FLN354GlV8fV16b97t6nlaRww v7Zg6cfIr3ZKEZM+bdf1Ffo+qd7BLHzCfs7fPX/PO9T0LDui8Z+hx97exzokf4qSZHZp4v2p 7YKC85eoMUbwBrfmu/BVdStFBa2rOehfbyv/anVmd9dttdcZZXXfo3hOseno2k47cFbHXMMd 6HYlluKMREMt5qLiRAARyRwIYQIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FBcpStvVh1l8OAvr8WWRd0sFvNbl7FZ vFlzhMli6/sV7A4sHk0XlrF7LFnyk8lj8Za3jB5bDl1kC2CJ4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mq4d+YA U8El2YpP97cwNzDeEu9i5OSQEDCRaDl7jLGLkYtDSOAQo8TqCQ0sIAleAUGJH5PvAdkcHMwC 8hIHz8uChJkFtCS+P2plgajvZ5KY82EyWL2wgLRE14W7rBC2psS1dUtYQXrZgBoOrDECMTkF bCXe/E4BqWARUJXYceEzM8TIRIm+u39YIbbaSExtvssCd87WY8/ZQBIiAk4Sn68+YIG4WUli +vfbbBMYBWYhuXQWwqWzkFy6gJF5FaNAUWpOYqWpXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGcMAWRuxg/L/M6hCj AAejEg+vwYbKKCHWxLLiylyg3RzMSiK87uzVUUK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYpTlYlMR5jygV RQkJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoYJ5nb3/37XO3G1eXf25kP8vxqsRPyW7v4du2FCosF8/Tv e+fInvr1494xjluMGbyfjk/S1lDhcd1x6uVrXUv3TVPfTJvRO993ouUh4W2d5SUCbYbf5JWe Je3/fqTs8BYlVxF1G4nfUy4xfNl48+ey3M0Zwo5zRJ/HqRV94kxcvvt2SfrVOZ+VDZVYijMS DbWYi4oTAdWstBZUAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 17:23:57 -0000 Hi Juliusz, Ted, Responses inline. Thanks, David >> On Feb 7, 2018, at 04:56, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> >>> For the Homenet use case, I would consider using unscheduled multicast >>> hellos for discovery and unicast hellos (over DTLS) for bidirectional >>> reachability detection. >> >> I think this might cause two problems: >> >> (1) it would break interoperability with implementations that ignore >> unicast Hellos, which is explicitly allowed by the current spec; Since we're using security here, not interoperating with devices that do not support our security scheme is a feature, not a bug. One could imagine having the document that specifies the security scheme for Babel (DTLS or otherwise) mandate unicast hello support. >> (2) it breaks link-quality estimation over wifi, since unicast packets >> are sent with ARQ. I know this is evil, but technically there's nothing preventing us from sending a Babel Unicast Hello over DTLS over multicast - all other nodes will drop it since the decryption will fail. >> I have no problem with out-of-band discovery, which I think is a reasonable >> thing to do in many environments (point-to-point VPNs being the obvious >> example). What does bother me is that there is no way to know whether the >> link partner does grok Unicast Hellos -- if you've done out-of-band >> discovery and the peer ignores your Unicast Hellos you're out of luck. I think it's safe to assume that the out-of-band discovery mechanism will contain additional information. One example of such information is the public key of the peer used for DTLS, another is the fact that the peer supports Babel, and yet another is the fact that the peer supports unicast hellos. If you have out of band discovery you move away from the general Babel mindset of "any two Babel nodes in the universe can interoperate" and into the world of "these nodes are part of this system and Babel is a tool at their disposal". >> (Note further that in the obvious case -- point-to-point links -- you've >> got only one link partner, so you might as well send Multicast Hellos over >> Unicast.) >> >> So my current thinking (which is likely to change) is that we done one of >> the following: >> >> (1) either we make reception (but not emission) of Unicast Hellos compulsory, >> or at least a strongly worded SHOULD; >> (2) or we drop Unicast Hellos from rfc6126bis, say that implementations >> MUST silently ignore Hellos with the Unicast bit set, and define >> Unicast Hellos in draft-hoiland-schinazi-babel-unicast-hellos. >> >> Note that neither of these actually changes the protocol -- they just make >> it clear whether we're serious about Unicast Hellos (case 1) or whether we >> merely consider them as a compatible extension that should only be used in >> closed environments such as Homenet. I would vote for option (1) as I see unicast hellos as an important part of Babel, but I do agree that this is independent of the protocol itself. While the examples we describe above use unicast hellos in closed systems, I have an intuition that unicast hellos will be useful for open systems as well - though I'll concede that I don't have code or data to back that up. > On Feb 7, 2018, at 08:25, Ted Lemon wrote: > > Is there a way to detect the latency caused by ARQ? You could implement link-quality estimation even with ARQ by measuring properties such as latency. Juliusz raises the point that operational experience has shown that drop rate of multicast works very well for babel over Wi-Fi, while these other metrics have yet to be proven. I believe they eventually will be, but we haven't implemented them yet. From nobody Wed Feb 7 10:25:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FED12D858 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:25:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HH20Mp_z3PE3 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDCFA1270B4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w17IP5ls020897; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:25:05 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5A1EB28B; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:25:05 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id DXZj5PTcPJQU; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:25:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.250.46.254]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04508EB225; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:25:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 19:25:04 +0100 Message-ID: <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: Dave Taht , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 07 Feb 2018 19:25:05 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A7B4481.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7B4481.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7B4481.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 18:25:10 -0000 Added Dave to CC, removed Toke and David who follow the list assiduously. > Is there a way to detect the latency caused by ARQ? You should speak to Toke and Dave. draft-jonglez-babel-rtt-extension gives you microsecond granularity (thanks to Dave, who complained about the initial version using multiples of 10ms). Wifi uses timeouts on the order of 20 to 100 µs, if memory serves. Not sure how well that would work in userspace on a general-purpose OS, though. You might suffer from jitter on the order of 1ms due to scheduling, so you'd need to work out a smart filtering algorithm to work around that. I'm not aware of any papers on the subject, perhaps Toke'll know. The right solution, IMHO, would be to grab the kernel's data and use that directly. I've been wanting to try it out for ages, but keep getting sidetracked by silly concerns such as security ;-) -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Feb 7 10:45:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF461124239 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8TRnQVzre1o for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5454A1270B4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id y204so2414416qkb.10 for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 10:45:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=njrYEPuEsR9iG1OItCeFfJVB/g3hIt/iOOeAtFz3hJo=; b=lAFrHTXkfj6nWvUPEYCyQ+C+fTRMVC3C4kuGnjn0M8/uvM4nc3tcc5AM97tWcLXHVq aJxwBKVZWq7OW/t3hdaeNq5fchvZj1wpl99n+EVMC7X2TBXdC0A373RpUaBPCsC5LxhS 4hAqo87puLfrkpDl4ITpy3sYmLF8p4C0oo/0eMvzoDbzwEVYImqpR/529tOXksxTiWos Gn1NSGgSArbhXFHCajRESgN9XLtM8vJFwvfMJsLix1N9VjVjuVzMQohc6ByOjdWZQDSG 6rwltRgTi9W+KWk2/bd5fa/ISFcVZF7JcsyAVQiviudpXHEvc1iahmotTA+w1wgAAYll /2wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=njrYEPuEsR9iG1OItCeFfJVB/g3hIt/iOOeAtFz3hJo=; b=bqD77vtDOLyv88zbVB7V9uzViLdMUybYyEdQds927K/B/d549KBQXvP1EpLy9QTm7j crbfi75IixQxhNKeH89x3zR/PuGDHzS11c5Mt6UA/bEEhKrBSfaInkM9SY0Q+VPiknEg FqCl5Q6xi9Z0x8tCuPeZKJ5KIR4UZ8WAmlxv6mD4b2OTFsXCXdgYe/K5Ry2ZH6IWyiv8 CHo3RmXN0wGOZRkTu50xbyLUwwbVcm75SAVcDiLzzKW/yw356if9/aLXBmlCHEoQDKGH oSfpo+Hq3on9g8fE/J86iRkTfUvbShMO6kTQsoV1fli4huxRDN5LnA03/Gfr9kgmIZmW eJVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAVsqTFc0FjXbExV+c6cv9J6eiGDdKWfCRZZx31u+IPLYUd7cp6 Dy5jQQuviGxZe0cvpyLCqSe7GQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226uc2rTupC0CxkEPeJTTgcqOgcW1T7f/XHtKeFW2t4n2UXrMPDExSVrM+DY1V/04TEvKORjqw== X-Received: by 10.55.113.199 with SMTP id m190mr10565947qkc.263.1518029121315; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 10:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r68sm1475801qkd.29.2018.02.07.10.45.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Feb 2018 10:45:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <7AF7175E-652C-457C-86E9-2D550D70ACF4@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F37A57F-902A-4625-810C-A7DAAC23D5AA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:45:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: Dave Taht , babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 18:45:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4F37A57F-902A-4625-810C-A7DAAC23D5AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 7, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Not sure how well that would work in userspace on a general-purpose = OS, > though. You might suffer from jitter on the order of 1ms due to > scheduling, so you'd need to work out a smart filtering algorithm to = work > around that. I'm not aware of any papers on the subject, perhaps = Toke'll > know. In my experience at least, when the link is lossy, you see plenty of = delays longer than 1ms. So it might still be useful, even if it's not = perfect. But yeah, if there were a way to get the details from the kernel, that = would obviously be better. --Apple-Mail=_4F37A57F-902A-4625-810C-A7DAAC23D5AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Feb 7, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
Not sure how well = that would work in userspace on a general-purpose OS,
though.  You might suffer from jitter on = the order of 1ms due to
scheduling, so = you'd need to work out a smart filtering algorithm to work
around that.  I'm not aware of any papers = on the subject, perhaps Toke'll
know.

In my experience at least, when the link is lossy, you see = plenty of delays longer than 1ms.   So it might still be useful, = even if it's not perfect.

But yeah, if there were a way to get the details from the = kernel, that would obviously be better.

= --Apple-Mail=_4F37A57F-902A-4625-810C-A7DAAC23D5AA-- From nobody Wed Feb 7 21:53:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA9C12D7EC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:53:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lBwo-I0Qp5cW for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CEF0127342 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id i186so7171269wmi.4 for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 21:53:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inf-net-nl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dQyyZxHbkNAokyOwTvMjte+cel5jc5LJ8tLAxnBwO5g=; b=yXYNClKEZt9XrDOVeHb3FmmvlEJUSek9oagCDbZA3/N1hPQlTYTraoEF4vjj3Y+1ND 9eBdy+7/oVbdyd2X2/1HvYm8qITYOmLMXmjN2BGsLxwZTJYFFCXQG9Ff+PfcTvxT4C7a V0TaIEPlpdny63hU9U24EYMIJUGLLe/gyO3um1bkurBoQQ06eh3EiBEgY23e7s2hApR0 0FDLVcSJ/rP7RkzPtJ78KqbzreNB6VZjIXgvLe60iazm1fr6vIHhUkbrVRLmxxmmaeRq uHBJZ9g9FMCvLd0rVYl5oHTgFnop7/m3+VgAGya5eOsRLJWBaaTwVxMPdWU4i9B6n/Fu 4DnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dQyyZxHbkNAokyOwTvMjte+cel5jc5LJ8tLAxnBwO5g=; b=uJi7E7cxe+jWRezGHrK5Q9inllJXzsI6NkZRtmJSopw/XuQ4BSrfKU9XZwr0Wzkh+f Y831S1Pk4LuQ4rJvA9lfvbBFta8L1GihvQDlTuOvuvTo6J5EdNK4yLHyc1NeXlPgbPJD Y9PxSWxoPKbFSKZeyCoKnM/8Y0QCSaa5pDrK1fuQtSrFJ1MmpDnvoPRKMYi3wiLZfKIw A4RW0Srgy+LTtKWgpR86av9f0G5bTc7SJojmuX4ltFrBuij1uC/F8A3Ytsdej3GlccEe TTPa4V6SLuVuYuGF5MGhQPyRSZalbbSLF/PBB4d9u6sCSMbawBVzWtYsuC7zNXbbjktR /tmA== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBJESJG9/6xGd096olhzfoIRw+FRj+OiYSZew44m9EFpTRppVXf A3yL7EWqxQaR4nRXzLRuBX101Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x2260N39gepiZLUXQZnFOtllwiMfDOZCS8FKon7BAUNTobZtgSZc/InkC36oSO8vKr9ERbvYbvQ== X-Received: by 10.80.180.184 with SMTP id w53mr11782491edd.149.1518069225691; Wed, 07 Feb 2018 21:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.43.147] ([89.200.0.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q11sm2027985edj.64.2018.02.07.21.53.44 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Feb 2018 21:53:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <7AF7175E-652C-457C-86E9-2D550D70ACF4@fugue.com> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 06:53:45 +0100 Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , Dave Taht , babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> <7AF7175E-652C-457C-86E9-2D550D70ACF4@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 05:53:50 -0000 Op 7 feb. 2018, om 19:45 heeft Ted Lemon het volgende = geschreven: >=20 > On Feb 7, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> Not sure how well that would work in userspace on a general-purpose = OS, >> though. You might suffer from jitter on the order of 1ms due to >> scheduling, so you'd need to work out a smart filtering algorithm to = work >> around that. I'm not aware of any papers on the subject, perhaps = Toke'll >> know. >=20 > In my experience at least, when the link is lossy, you see plenty of = delays longer than 1ms. So it might still be useful, even if it's not = perfect. >=20 > But yeah, if there were a way to get the details from the kernel, that = would obviously be better. Depending on OS, insight info on link quality is available. E.g. Linux: user@host:~# iw wlan0 station xxx Station xxx (on wlan0) inactive time: 2777 ms rx bytes: 7489506 rx packets: 18217 tx bytes: 28571 tx packets: 402 tx retries: 36 tx failed: 0 rx drop misc: 5 signal: -35 [-40, -37] dBm signal avg: -35 [-40, -37] dBm Toffset: 18446743862051617833 us tx bitrate: 48.0 MBit/s rx bitrate: 24.0 MBit/s expected throughput: 33.507Mbps mesh llid: 0 mesh plid: 0 mesh plink: ESTAB mesh local PS mode: ACTIVE mesh peer PS mode: ACTIVE mesh non-peer PS mode: ACTIVE authorized: yes authenticated: yes associated: yes preamble: long WMM/WME: yes MFP: yes TDLS peer: no DTIM period: 2 beacon interval:5000 connected time: 9452 seconds If a link is not used, e.g. better path available or no user traffic, = link quality measurement needs some probing. Unicast hello's help = measuring link quality. Teco >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Thu Feb 8 00:51:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F50F12421A for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C_WmiVGHupu5 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 909D0120726 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w188pFUh023699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:15 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id w188pDYd032016; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:16 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED88EB33E; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:11 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id NqHDWFyrx01h; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.250.178.176]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3133EB335; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:51:13 +0100 Message-ID: <87inb7c1a6.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Teco Boot Cc: Ted Lemon , Dave Taht , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> <7AF7175E-652C-457C-86E9-2D550D70ACF4@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:51:16 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 08 Feb 2018 09:51:16 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A7C0F83.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5A7C0F81.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7C0F83.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A7C0F81.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7C0F83.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A7C0F81.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 08:51:21 -0000 Ted: >> In my experience at least, when the link is lossy, you see plenty of >> delays longer than 1ms. So it might still be useful, even if it's not >> perfect. Go for it, by all means, Ted. The timestamping code is already there [1], all that's needed is to do the right tweaks to neighbour_rxcost and neighbour_cost in neighbour.c. [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.3488 > Depending on OS, insight info on link quality is available. E.g. Linux: > user@host:~# iw wlan0 station xxx Yep, that's something that I've been wanting to do for a long time. Babeld currently uses the old wireless-tools ioctls for speaking to the WiFi stack, it needs to use netlink instead. That would fix the issue of babeld not being able to automatically determine the channel of interfaces in AP mode, and would give us access to all the nifty netlink data. > If a link is not used, e.g. better path available or no user traffic, > link quality measurement needs some probing. Unicast hello's help > measuring link quality. You don't need Unicast hellos for that. You can send some empty Babel packets (just the packet header), and if you need larger packets, you can send some PadN TLVs. What Unicast hellos bring to the table is a second (seqno, timeout) pair that is per-neighbour rather than per-interface. I am still not convinced that's something we need. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Feb 8 08:59:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9F012DA0D for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZbzLaHbeVxqP for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CF5812D7F4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id m130so6487142qke.1 for ; Thu, 08 Feb 2018 08:59:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/3nQbukG0qa6u7AsesEx4Z/kaEiCf1xchUlN8xSBZr0=; b=FMcUyCMNj7q4lH75MmU0Fv2w7xbSD8pz/ZXBRmxUzrfpXrEL3iKOSRh3Yp1HaADo4J tCcBeVtj3ijGX/UK02a9KRJKmOEW7VUAYF1K0JK58aPUuPlA27iS5sZ14Dc5Y6C6VP3H shaNbK9gqkC9ezq7ErVCc+oO/7kkL3AAc1qtUf/0Yaf4oTipaZfqAieYNRV5+Z6Qocg9 L/NUsnh96qrv1GBWRolOh367r252gSVfU+qfYW2es4UfPXIPhk2GqP+Ydsvhn+miQNps mWn1leejcdZA8XTlpStSxE7I5GUsgz9CRtBu0d/tBwMIm9HiFp2fDL2EoKeAho+JETP8 BFzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/3nQbukG0qa6u7AsesEx4Z/kaEiCf1xchUlN8xSBZr0=; b=QsNkfsrmj3+y7+lJhbyraoepJhEmIr7GAc1lBgy1gWD6wUCnETsToqq0cSIosktIOJ tGFiz5LDQOf1eTKJCh0yL2ESeW4v4iFhmIiUGNZ4Md6W68ASHY23+jhZ4WTN+OUMc36u 9Lvx+e5JqGX81kScd7oW917ZZyDszxNilL1UKQMr5WFiiIxRF1xylsNL0ct7oADGkONy n821Rj9K2VGWyF6WDEszNJCp3zQAlVvxsOFYIQxnB0m9TwnhUub8mhfpSzO1Tz81JSE9 3DoZpU8AOmIU5jyHUgvxCDI3B+YHYR4FK5mLdnxmgDXpv8Vp/vGCGnMzZ4BAp12Fv/zq tybA== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAExY8QgJGDx9djPLDdm1Jq3pbkeAtzB/YWKG+Xv3KL6oV6IPbU EKrEk21RjruJkj6JkAXwt8WrIsf7hgViMha9N5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224Ksd/PTjLrggy5G7l1jcs+Z/Uu6qndjxGojLapBgeXhbtaKal0cojz5FBpgLtXNNsiVUwHmVgRIkKLUNZ3vLY= X-Received: by 10.55.215.29 with SMTP id m29mr1828473qki.305.1518109161631; Thu, 08 Feb 2018 08:59:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.168.213 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:59:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87inb7c1a6.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <87607cwz7v.wl-jch@irif.fr> <91CE1BFE-E457-4C49-9A5C-016BBF46A5C8@apple.com> <871shxhnxt.fsf@toke.dk> <87vaf9klfr.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1219D143-2733-44B2-A3B7-553E57CFCEC1@fugue.com> <87d11glksf.wl-jch@irif.fr> <7AF7175E-652C-457C-86E9-2D550D70ACF4@fugue.com> <87inb7c1a6.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Teco Boot , Ted Lemon , Dave Taht , Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Unicast Hellos again X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 16:59:25 -0000 On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Ted: > >>> In my experience at least, when the link is lossy, you see plenty of >>> delays longer than 1ms. So it might still be useful, even if it's not >>> perfect. > > Go for it, by all means, Ted. The timestamping code is already there [1]= , > all that's needed is to do the right tweaks to neighbour_rxcost and > neighbour_cost in neighbour.c. > > [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.3488 > >> Depending on OS, insight info on link quality is available. E.g. Linux: >> user@host:~# iw wlan0 station xxx > > Yep, that's something that I've been wanting to do for a long time. > Babeld currently uses the old wireless-tools ioctls for speaking to the > WiFi stack, it needs to use netlink instead. That would fix the issue of > babeld not being able to automatically determine the channel of interface= s > in AP mode, and would give us access to all the nifty netlink data. There is working netlink code for this in iw and olsrv2. I have to admit that I found it really hard to understand vs the simple ioctl, but I've got a mite better at netlink since I last looked at it. >> If a link is not used, e.g. better path available or no user traffic, >> link quality measurement needs some probing. Unicast hello's help >> measuring link quality. > > You don't need Unicast hellos for that. You can send some empty Babel > packets (just the packet header), and if you need larger packets, you can > send some PadN TLVs. My general thought was to also leverage a route update, timestamping and requesting arq on the first and last packet. > What Unicast hellos bring to the table is a second (seqno, timeout) pair > that is per-neighbour rather than per-interface. I am still not convince= d > that's something we need. > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-669-226-2619 From nobody Wed Feb 14 13:09:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852B2127735 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G75vmw6C8X7V for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x233.google.com (mail-oi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BE2012D867 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id 4so17552905ois.10 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Z5BzcnQA9XNY3uAJHPrk/IiRsEMIJLQQ+obKlpSKKlQ=; b=gVJznc7HXoZu6dxiBNT5HHUiz+MWmPLqE4ciTIIcnHJoYxhN0tlHrQQws2u87qAOHq NL1y7Y3EIbGB7hSotTZrgn6CMn/uFCXbUw4AynD8HqPC8mLChpa8Fgi3TOVYD+72pCyF TVIzG3W1SZey1GzlsO85+X/tbiIJY5WFAAhPkm6IcYwvJYC5Sr9vcGOkaDDTzg3Tq8hf PXhw0igYMta93U0p0pbOiltzotG4M2dnGAfQh1xer2+Vl1EwXBoyVxZZnXSzcZJK1XqQ dsYFiPZNVXYyxt582kKoTCa8Ab8g/GQt3tt5cn42dkhVdmRQdaOcmnH3oq3v2jP0pU1L JLwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Z5BzcnQA9XNY3uAJHPrk/IiRsEMIJLQQ+obKlpSKKlQ=; b=gjBndPPZTl50l2smV+Bk8+C6uSux5iOhqU2XobFViNbJf9444oGc17atE67ieRvtPF KnuHJfcMZ1duAP0WGlsjJFGCCGt0NaA/CPKVovSn5BMJkQEdnHD1VeGL5uE1MSze3AsD Qcad38ul9VwDWV7o0GM42XKexW8YPNnOyq1IfTfnAC4uqh1HR2EpOIyNJIp5Flut7N67 aWKDUUbMonIC6dH3sTM4DZL151ddzgj/LyYEWxvbw0WdjY50R+b4ys+gUpqa608rlW3x PxpeMHzUW4kjrDsgtGu+6PlB4VsYcu/MTHCng5C/RceoZDMk7RVhjGpQke+7XE1SnVpC 8Eog== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBgU1wblLeHQhiPvxztbWQWxP3VRBngq8RkhNbLOEdcmjj/V7Ee HlgiEcPMTISKnc5OyGzkyhvhOpVywoSIwwygMd8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225HV0HjAIao7mhbXXGupFHtD5khAxqW+DPhew1UwlZSWT+/IoJk5KCvifZTYrBWULCM3P2G1iYRbprn9zI6nT4= X-Received: by 10.202.229.206 with SMTP id c197mr318852oih.214.1518642590898; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:50 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 13:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: To: babel@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11408b6c2bdf000565328824" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Fwd: Last Call: (Homenet profile of the Babel routing protocol) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:09:53 -0000 --001a11408b6c2bdf000565328824 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FYI... On February 12, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM, The IESG (iesg-secretary@ietf.org) wrote: The IESG has received a request from the Home Networking WG (homenet) to consider the following document: - 'Homenet profile of the Babel routing protocol' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-02-26. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document defines the subset of the Babel routing protocol and its extensions that a Homenet router must implement, as well as the interactions between HNCP and Babel. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. --001a11408b6c2bdf000565328824 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
FYI...

On Febru= ary 12, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM, The IESG (iesg-secretary@ietf.org) wrote:


The IESG has received a request from the Home Networking WG (homenet) t= o
consider the following document: - 'Homenet profile of the Babel ro= uting
protocol'
<draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-05.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits f= inal
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 201= 8-02-26. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In = either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


This document defines the subset of the Babel routing protocol and
its extensions that a Homenet router must implement, as well as the
interactions between HNCP and Babel.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile/<= /a>

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-pr= ofile/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.




--001a11408b6c2bdf000565328824-- From nobody Wed Feb 14 16:12:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE2C12711A for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tb1vM-7Hfxbk for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02966127078 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9201CAE4A for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-f43.google.com (mail-it0-f43.google.com [209.85.214.43]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2AC1B1CAE48 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-f43.google.com with SMTP id v186so11823985itc.5 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAYFtqwJDSiHy3kx01Drh7CeQchHvNJwnQ/7zU3hrEqDnX3c5Jc 8U/c5lNDPecA2mj1E7q1B5gWXcKXsGcqjtbTmO0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x2257pcEYQwTJ+xYy+lTBU/W1MFag0fLkgb0ZPScDha1vGo8xSqXFBHrS673jW5Nu2wT/sSi9f++KYKKctVszKYE= X-Received: by 10.36.132.76 with SMTP id h73mr1104532itd.110.1518653543323; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.1.68 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:02 -0800 (PST) From: Glen Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:12:02 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: babel@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113b9308fcc39e0565351480" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Possible missed messages on this list X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 00:12:25 -0000 --001a113b9308fcc39e0565351480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Possible missed messages on this list Dear list participants - An upgrade to the IETF's custom mail processing software today resulted in some delivery failures for *some* messages to *some* recipients on this list, over the past 3 hours. We invite you to check the mail archives for this list, at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=babel to ensure that you have received all the relevant messages for this list today. We apologize for the inconvenience. Glen -- Glen Barney IT Director AMS (IETF Secretariat) --001a113b9308fcc39e0565351480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Possible missed messages on this list

Dear list= participants -

An upgrade to the IETF's custom mail processing software today resulted in some delivery=20 failures for *some* messages to *some* recipients on this list, over the past 3 hours.

We invite you to check the mail archives f= or this list, at:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_lis= t=3Dbabel

to ensure that you have received all the re= levant messages for this list today.

We apologize for the= inconvenience.

Glen
--
Glen Barney
<= /div>
IT Director
AMS (IETF Secretariat)

--001a113b9308fcc39e0565351480-- From nobody Sun Feb 18 15:34:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA08A126BF7; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wa0QcprcY8Uz; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x236.google.com (mail-it0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 858E8126BF3; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x236.google.com with SMTP id d10so7514355itj.2; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3p9Y3dVC8TYOmAwLUfB1KXRSan8jD+nGlw/KveDAh7k=; b=e4D3J3bON7r6p2T1Y8p75Jc1eX0muO296dr5sQYOzJe07CK7SWyxPVxtBTkDHsLUgP XcS+Vwj6AyCJ2Gwo2PSE6wPUuwf94T7lZdNePjyiy6FBc8fk8NF4kJSNpFS+DIYmTYk2 pHNCx9AkBcppgB2m5OWpyHkc955L+gIPWdHrcEnPjgNs+KyQ2N7wdOPu1vgAjct5FFba 2401dat8gPYsMIaf7SB4QkcGWjr7U2bbJGKNyJxO7Aqq0h4HiX3/8STVAQ1JT2clzmx8 JFtPHtCDBQql0Nti9dGO6SqCjbm53Wp/cTP1LZ1ooND6VSnYtDwesEhkzzIwGFaDzgQr z/UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3p9Y3dVC8TYOmAwLUfB1KXRSan8jD+nGlw/KveDAh7k=; b=BcXP8mgOv3KnKtraN6sqg3KSd7A3VOv7mhmsIsoD2/VqFdeFRV2q5jCrwk3AR5PUvn A4dodRgppbhqKhX0ArZdmBESTT/2MQ7LqPFxvsdzN1grZO1ro1qTNKxzq/76NM/p18mx 0nzzkNX4D5F83CRjulyH/bfUsrRGWuPOOGnFCjPe41lNGZqW7fsYU8dZiL8uTtqp3/9k U8NI7CuWDc+bkXlRNhIFNTfwPMdmUKResXCbrKL74VU+iA9vCYBUgaKF4IbUPQqO78qK IeLDZf5hYQUT5jtHx2DlB/m15A0ZsWIFWy0cZC1AoSPjpyZAGyj4cTEqSwsPNKj4FFTb DqPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPC+MwIuhOHmFcq+19jwFVuK1l4sZnHCdHFIvuj2RN8+fHmjx6SM pNVvmfjZ5ewOyyuY/9mzQuGqihEJD8yN1aZ1CyMcAA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224ynIaXqnxoBmpu12xO+ANK/5lgXHbWg2HYxsvN7AEC7/yyB2lr7a1+uwxYtIYzUgCRa/H9aiZOsP+TWyx+z5w= X-Received: by 10.36.237.204 with SMTP id r195mr17164857ith.59.1518996882605; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.57.193 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:34:27 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:34:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Cc: babel-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 23:34:45 -0000 Hi, The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or to babel-chairs@ietf.org. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com From nobody Sun Feb 18 16:25:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0449126D85; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:25:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRPdHEzsKiJd; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73135126BF3; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w1J0OwO8029453; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:58 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2043CEB340; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:58 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id X-Ki9064XNBD; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C80BEB225; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:56 +0100 Message-ID: <87fu5xx1uv.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Donald Eastlake Cc: Babel at IETF , babel-chairs@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:24:58 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A8A195A.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A8A195A.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A8A195A.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:25:02 -0000 > The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 > Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. Excellent. > If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or > to babel-chairs@ietf.org. Antonin Décimo, David Schinazi and myself are trying to get a strawman implementaiton, perhaps two independent implementations, of DTLS-based security in time for IETF. If we succeed, one of us will be wanting to give a talk. If we fail, we'll feel stupid, and apologise to the WG. So please reserve 10 minutes for us, although we cannot make promises yet. I still consider DTLS-based security as the expedient but less elegant solution to authentication and integrity, so please don't anyone take the above to mean that I am not supporting the efforts towards an rfc7298bis. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Feb 18 19:54:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48B31270A3; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gPQlKUPj3lYZ; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22a.google.com (mail-it0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2DF2126D74; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id o13so7679467ito.2; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N0N7ZumvLKW0yWrQ8BOXjEw1fpJ0LxSFgBuQciA8LUY=; b=U8Wq/dsAkaGR6XtGudzTDNK10fq2tnrvDs1i+7WnDkkNt5iHnvYUwXIufWZnfPXq04 93iN/OppISh9jeZ72a98Jxk4eDmMBncZs3+ZxBlKAmY0zsNnS3wU9L7YPX3HcI+JN183 If2+DBoQ+mCDd+sZV1GmHVoiIyspNDCsv+PKUlaI5FWX9HNj4I+KKie8fnzQb3dyG0WE 1kRqo3G+pP4pRTQ83pwjllEcLszS0pAYWO4xZruNPMN5xSVAagusWBB/WpowZyieOUXt iOfEkg6oIGUliQtUWqDvQlBVIjpPVBmrEPx4V1Zl6UnagH0EhPnHTOJaNMyRqpBcb9v+ NRkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N0N7ZumvLKW0yWrQ8BOXjEw1fpJ0LxSFgBuQciA8LUY=; b=txmji8sACJGx9NW+CvooyJGfGVheFAxsUAGhomEzP3mfGR/7J5q/g55aclR8CGIdXg tYu1dPvBXkP7PaLYj3WbP8X6CVKVwwpUvIukYL0xVs7SbwDDZJwmEd4NjlJ2xeKgu2b1 T4J87qshtQ9XJD0RWEdYz+n67ik0jwCzMDweOgzKAnuVN0K9wlRpEcFjF0v/eRaM/iTp v9nWaV86ta7tuCczamnPZ1qUqZ3LJrKRsEPtqYaSBWnLuOgIHyw9ZdjhSSkzFtKi5nOJ cEPwNvSoieCrgcEBXsTICppm7eT/H584HpxCo5NVMYfb9Xqj9ImTyx8WRWQtRpATbYmw 4CAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPDcF2J9CLQJ+drnJvpEQz3IH1dSkDUp7/XSlkGDrHYo8J+HaILM iA4ZTi0ut8O8LzUPhOdbIJDyokF4CfK+pwLUJ+M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224XGIfM/B7FX1poGnr/oeN+vJIO5P9aBf7FcugirUSYjQ32GFib/lQ0xUwhxIOBl71tau7P4l/I269ahY1AkxQ= X-Received: by 10.36.17.195 with SMTP id 186mr17792257itf.85.1519012459066; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.57.193 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:54:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87fu5xx1uv.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <87fu5xx1uv.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 22:54:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Babel at IETF , babel-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 03:54:22 -0000 Hi Juliusz, OK. I've added that to the tentative BABEL agenda. See BABEL at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/ Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:24 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 >> Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. > > Excellent. > >> If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or >> to babel-chairs@ietf.org. > > Antonin D=C3=A9cimo, David Schinazi and myself are trying to get a strawm= an > implementaiton, perhaps two independent implementations, of DTLS-based > security in time for IETF. If we succeed, one of us will be wanting to > give a talk. If we fail, we'll feel stupid, and apologise to the WG. > > So please reserve 10 minutes for us, although we cannot make promises yet= . > > I still consider DTLS-based security as the expedient but less elegant > solution to authentication and integrity, so please don't anyone take the > above to mean that I am not supporting the efforts towards an rfc7298bis. > > -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Feb 19 05:07:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBA112762F; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 05:07:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3mfia-6WGFq; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 05:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B2D1127010; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 05:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w1JD6xvI018058; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:07:22 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2g7r2swpm3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:07:12 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w1JD6kx4023912; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:06:54 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [135.47.91.179]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w1JD6c3a023393; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:06:38 -0500 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id E85AC4000355; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:06:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.156]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id D2DED4000375; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:06:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.253]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:06:38 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Donald Eastlake , Babel at IETF CC: "babel-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting Thread-Index: AQHTqRESExBeM74GAE6olj1KZK+T4KOrrh5A Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:06:37 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD23F9B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.202.79] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2018-02-19_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=301 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802190163 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:07:25 -0000 > The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 > Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. >=20 > If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or to > babel-chairs@ietf.org. Hi Donald, I'd like about 10 minutes to discuss information and data models. Barbara From nobody Tue Feb 20 17:06:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04CB12E05C; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zizPPPNAakRD; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63C9112DFDB; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id p78so330903iod.13; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8qrvA554uZMtGVPAxqE3deLo2Z5cHQiE2GM0TobbZVg=; b=RKo6E/5jvMMpYA16CApFx+fc0dIEyeaUi0IM2mZDjpjHllC0OyDbjLseG7aNkr5Hlw 1ZQkqYjgn+/lXzr9jDacieU7fmeYS50K+nzVYnoCBbFubO9J7uTa9RN9gEvO26VzthuB NpDqP8BHnJjFt2hYHiV041mw7v9pmWI6LRgDtAe+2UcqswhfqtM5EOfPo8QTJnfg+yRL lx0+Y4tFcF6Ez2OJMxC5VtU/WtzN2YUvkTeLGuWPPTcW9ltXwP0aW+XGy4prFMV5eNZv 7f2xe6PR+oQRh+YI80BTx6MLpVfO+ZN6eJ9xYLFGuh/tqAUGYEeZK16++jdq2w0Ma6Mv tFqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8qrvA554uZMtGVPAxqE3deLo2Z5cHQiE2GM0TobbZVg=; b=P2luazBuwGV8GEZ5T+1V9Bn5nndO5AllywL85q0q2KtEhxDTVTi7Bo3BPvlTV8O6V+ 30QafQHynlLVLlcUD7yVRbPCQP76Ki5DSW2pQUru5kb6RKVJFWr9Y0NjeFrosWS1gxTc fmm7f7py+ITdp48WF/QGk1s8+sLmFmUsFvYQdN7BvbZxDyNNyDeEhYGKuiOCaKQvCy7h 6eb+YSMUlPFezVhRb+QTLHhElXmscpE3akwIM5dc0peBddve2cWrm37D+4wArK/oFBOM dwVPV/ddDr0/gHwCwQc+qdBGcNVnJEmCPpXxp0gb5fNeabhBzyGzfpiELk3dck4wbGYS Pwzg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPCDAJIkZOmBq+qkMefgZvm6Zx+tXcHVtmNtI2JWiA27KzzsCoXl lbN1QttHDokE+wuklB8IdZInH9JmcgApk/OIigUMvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225WdnOIGklQ/W0DUDRXQ5wR9cziOdik7ECbfatKQOZ6PWW8P59x9dzSiAsihROII0Aqxgt2HCDIG2S0ooos+Wo= X-Received: by 10.107.36.204 with SMTP id k195mr2033244iok.131.1519175194706; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.57.193 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:06:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD23F9B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD23F9B@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:06:19 -0500 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Cc: Babel at IETF , "babel-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114041aad507580565ae8968" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 01:06:37 -0000 --001a114041aad507580565ae8968 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Barbara, OK, I will add you. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 8:06 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > > The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 > > Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. > > > > If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or to > > babel-chairs@ietf.org. > > Hi Donald, > I'd like about 10 minutes to discuss information and data models. > Barbara > --001a114041aad507580565ae8968 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Barbara,

OK, I will add you.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
= =C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 8:06 AM, STARK, BARB= ARA H <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
> The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled = for 18:10 to 19:10
> Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London.
>
> If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or= to
> babel-chairs@ietf.org.
Hi Donald,
I'd like about 10 minutes to discuss information and data models.
Barbara

--001a114041aad507580565ae8968-- From nobody Fri Feb 23 10:28:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C063F126C2F for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:28:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q4egGF5OrzfN for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C07FF1274D2 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w1NIS8fw028356; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:08 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCF1EB3AC; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:08 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id UOMT5puOptI9; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from lanthane.irif.fr (unknown [172.23.36.89]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48A24EB340; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi CC: Antonin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:28:08 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A905D38.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A905D38.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A905D38.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 18:28:17 -0000 David, What shall we do if the DTLS handshake fails? We switch to unauthentified operation for this particular neighbour, we drop the neighbour, or we blacklist the neighbour for a couple of minutes? -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Feb 23 11:25:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D47126DEE for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXRkFYUib2Vp for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in25.apple.com (mail-out25.apple.com [17.171.2.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 834AD126B6E for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1519413901; x=2383327501; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Z7clmWk6sYMIbMvmCjM0zN1XsP9ePtSSYCRxUlH76t0=; b=M2FOcqxf7BPIWeo+P5RxGG7Tfn1DGJi3SEGktQAvIES2MUGrrlE8wXymJ4oQLwt2 1yUcf8ptUE1LhrOT6Cwm/6u7Amp3GQJQE94nQ3O9zV/ImAra4R74hyPUn4IvFoPb QerMwBOptTqER6m4JIWA5HaWwrfiIpxuKTZ3Oy1FPm88J5iEzNYsn71MtZ05Hf3h WX1Qx9r59eSWp24M8mGsZFuBu7+bOoSAb/AEk+oi+YAyO2wWv+FND+7QFzGowX7C QCuo+ykKE9sU2n1++EuEwqr4fvCcUuqsysf+FRIXjQ+Iqp0ov7A1Vjc+evnl578O x9rRbrAXdrm7W/DS6pRzqw==; Received: from relay8.apple.com (relay8.apple.com [17.128.113.102]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in25.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 35.6D.14365.D8A609A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11ab0219-e904d9e00000381d-ab-5a906a8d7260 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com [17.128.115.216]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id EB.C7.10701.D8A609A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.234.44.53] (unknown [17.234.44.53]) by nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180130 64bit (built Jan 30 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P4M00FAUB9O6I00@nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com>; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:25:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:24:59 -0800 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org Message-id: References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYptubNSHK4MwJfYsjW64xWmxZ1M1i Mb91GZsDs8fOWXfZPZYs+cnksXjLW8YA5igum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujBm9TYwFH5kr2i/vYmpg 7GLuYuTkkBAwkXjX+JcNxBYSWMsksfC6N0z86odNjF2MXEDxQ4wSmxfeZgdJ8AoISvyYfI+l i5GDg1lAXuLgeVmQMLOAlsT3R60sEPX9TBLzVlxmAkkIC0hLdF24ywphq0vM3n+cCaSXDajh wBojkDCngIbEzk8XWUBsFgFVifYTN1ghxvtJzL9lCGLyCthINH9XhbhSXeLlxQ9g14sIqEgs n/aMHeJiJYnp32+zgVwgITCBTWLqk4ksExiFZyE5ehbC0bOQHL2AkXkVo3BuYmaObmaekale YkFBTqpecn7uJkZQoK9mktzB+PW14SFGAQ5GJR7eCPEJUUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEea8+b4wS EkhPLEnNTk0tSC2KLyrNSS0+xMjEwSnVwCijcJZHdwV3hOuZGs+5HR/nyGyf+obF6skZk7LX MpF/86zdXbni71+aXb2wWsMtst9f19pMp8/j1sfYUx3uDIyNt7c7z3cuSjf5ebxYtFil9Lio ha/g29nC3yuN/4Zm2Fx7Xpm+ZIfYpTaFeO59k6I/FLb+vSzlONX15+SshiymvOkditcVlFiK MxINtZiLihMBi1s7YVUCAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FB8Q7c3a0KUQc8ECYsjW64xWmxZ1M1i Mb91GZsDs8fOWXfZPZYs+cnksXjLW8YA5igum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujBm9TYwFH5kr2i/vYmpg 7GLuYuTkkBAwkbj6YRNjFyMXh5DAIUaJzQtvs4MkeAUEJX5MvsfSxcjBwSwgL3HwvCxImFlA S+L7o1YWiPp+Jol5Ky4zgSSEBaQlui7cZYWw1SVm7z/OBNLLBtRwYI0RSJhTQENi56eLLCA2 i4CqRPuJG6wQ4/0k5t8yBDF5BWwkmr+rglQIAQ15efED2JUiAioSy6c9Y4e4WEli+vfbbBMY BWYhuXMWwp2zkNy5gJF5FaNAUWpOYqWFXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGcGAWpu1gbFpudYhRgINRiYc3 QnxClBBrYllxZS4wIDiYlUR4y573RwnxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLnbfTojRISSE8s Sc1OTS1ILYLJMnFwSjUwVvm+X8v854tISiTHxB7Numlfp7id4JIwqP3X/0DXcPeR68YfXke0 LNNrEJa//jvXKrXoxo4vEQIzZ/b43enNYbQ/nf+2TJT1xZVjGz0n90xnW3qLNyLxt8/5X6+f 5ggYmO2LCtjFFDc9fsv5vkbRdxu5Z6Qs/bfvwpe9v05abt57mGP25x2Z4kosxRmJhlrMRcWJ AEBpLCFIAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:25:04 -0000 Falling back to unauthenticated operation would allow for downgrade attacks, so I'd strongly recommend against that. I'd recommend retrying with an exponential back-off? David > On Feb 23, 2018, at 10:28, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > David, > > What shall we do if the DTLS handshake fails? We switch to unauthentified > operation for this particular neighbour, we drop the neighbour, or we > blacklist the neighbour for a couple of minutes? > > -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Feb 23 12:19:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97151120724 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:19:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kapsi.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jivzD3ITzhqI for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.kapsi.fi (mail.kapsi.fi [IPv6:2001:67c:1be8::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09F8E1205F0 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:18:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kapsi.fi; s=20161220; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=u3ZKX+8iiO693RoIF9lgXsyOSlBWhcLlb/FqF1n5zmU=; b=J7osmOmqekm/3FJ9s59OpkcoK81BpanNKSNap5gVwXR6kfLKOLcKi4DGBto9J/aYqjAw5BjKQDliJexc5ngXT3ZCRiWYJFFpdlOW4azeUDsN+Auk+FhaQ+VEn//uVv7txmt60jEXbr4XkSgNwf9fGkJEqgUTtA/cbVh5Sf7nYW/5hMLJHf1+eO7CHl/I3IJLoQnS9uKyMc1t+KHxpsumoE0tTxbzZqWKx70nfc+J/dCkye1d8aTGGdQN0BIrH+YbXZn/98+/rxYO2/xz1e05mYg7wqYSZ6MyUuzxUWxUL9FfVFCkaX5fuQXgMhtlsIiazUHtu7va86tXhJiD1dw+xQ==; Received: from 91-155-69-187.elisa-laajakaista.fi ([91.155.69.187] helo=poro.lan) by mail.kapsi.fi with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epJnv-0005jr-6c; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 22:18:51 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 22:18:50 +0200 Cc: David Schinazi , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 91.155.69.187 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: markus.stenberg@iki.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.kapsi.fi); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 20:19:00 -0000 On 23 Feb 2018, at 20.28, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > David, >=20 > What shall we do if the DTLS handshake fails? We switch to = unauthentified > operation for this particular neighbour, we drop the neighbour, or we > blacklist the neighbour for a couple of minutes? This is a matter of policy, but if third party can force DTLS handshake = failure, switch to unauthenticated operation basically means you can = (potentially) always force unathenticated mode. In general allowing anything weaker than acceptable level of security is = usually not good idea (c.f. historic ciphersuites in relatively modern = browsers due to legacy, cough), but basically if I have configured = something to use DTLS, having it not use it is a bug and not a feature. Probably just fixed (and relatively long, e.g. 10 minutes or something) = blacklist period is what I would use, as e.g. exponential backoff will = also have issues (problems of defining acceptable minimum/maximum window = mainly; if it is too long, user cannot =E2=80=98fix=E2=80=99 things in = reasonable timeframe either, and if too short, it won=E2=80=99t help). Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Fri Feb 23 15:50:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F317412420B for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:50:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0SQC4tGNRsFx for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24541120713 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w1NNnwGv017317; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:58 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE39EB340; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:58 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id E2fto3xwDMKs; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D64FFEB225; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:55 +0100 Message-ID: <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Markus Stenberg Cc: David Schinazi , Antonin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:49:58 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A90A8A6.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A90A8A6.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A90A8A6.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 23:50:06 -0000 > This is a matter of policy, but if third party can force DTLS handshake > failure, switch to unauthenticated operation basically means you can > (potentially) always force unathenticated mode. I'm not a specialist, but I don't think we're vulnerable. There's two different policies: what you do on reception, and what you do on emission. What you do on reception is clear: if an interface has been configured to requre authentication, we ignore all unauthenticated TLVs except Hellos. No exceptions of any kind. The question is -- what do we send. If the DTLS handshake succeeded, we send all unicast TLVs authenticated except for Hellos. If the DTLS handshake failed, we can: - send all TLVs in clear, in case the peer is configured without auth; - drop the neighbour association, which will cause the next Hello to trigger a new handshake attempt; - blacklist the neighbour, so that another Hello will not trigger a new handshake attempt. As far as I can tell, the three options are equivalent from a security perspective when all routers are configured correctly, since we still ignore any unauthentified TLVs. They do differ when some routers are mis-configured, and they don't generate the same amount of traffic. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Feb 23 16:51:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E1E126C26 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6q_m-X0Opy_g for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in24.apple.com (mail-out24.apple.com [17.171.2.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D14512420B for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1519433514; x=2383347114; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Yse/vybNB4l+qSNcTO1FUsG9+htq2GRqqqYgjmV3GVQ=; b=tqi2LOuZs3Di0H/HREw62TX4WyUGtbXpxzhESJT6VAZlURaExrtkLo644RU98Gvh DxXHuv6djpCZFEX16uxR1mVeZqR3y28QvUcxs0wWfZB3aJTxRQENxkwI5aGlAkQB ucGX8OUaAX3dTTwM3KXWYeEzurvWsC9qHo9av4QaFsiXLjPJWzpshIRis6Sr+Sth BFk46hnlUvaigW1kDVNhkuaV1/FHHXha29tDqtMA9xpOES1IS0xaXcWb419lXpHC SiUjNC2OPaakbtV9LQR5H8Wl2GfkIshzwh5HJkjoFnsDU3SpMe1wc4F5hYQkyGX3 ve8XVjH3m/cvAq2N5lysAA==; Received: from relay3.apple.com (relay3.apple.com [17.128.113.83]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in24.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id EB.11.10828.A27B09A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:54 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11ab0218-260a89e000002a4c-40-5a90b72acfaa Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com [17.128.115.122]) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 6D.E7.18185.927B09A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.234.44.53] (unknown [17.234.44.53]) by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180130 64bit (built Jan 30 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P4M00IDHQEHO300@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:51:52 -0800 Cc: Markus Stenberg , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org Message-id: <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrKu1fUKUQV+HhMWRLdcYLbYs6max mN+6jM1i79wVLA4sHjtn3WX3WLLkJ5PH4a8LWTwWb3nLGMASxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVxa8Ns 1oK1IhU35rWwNTCuEehi5OSQEDCReP9nB0sXIxeHkMAaJolXZ2aywyRWPP3CBpE4xCjxdtkV sASvgKDEj8n3gDo4OJgF5CUOnpcFCTMLaEl8f9QKNaifSWLyxBlg9cIC0hJdF+6yQtj6EvsO 72EH6WUDajiwxggkzCmgIXH94kcWEJtFQFVi/7XtUOOrJF6cCIPYaiPxfeMdVpCwkECxxLnj WSBhEQEVieXTnkFdrCQx/fttsIslBOawSaxacYxpAqPwLCRHz0I4ehaSoxcwMq9iFM5NzMzR zcwzMtFLLCjISdVLzs/dxAgK/9VMEjsYv7w2PMQowMGoxMPLIDohSog1say4MvcQozQHi5I4 79XnjVFCAumJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGJd2l7Y92S7+fnHQ+XvrQpnmhh+rtGJf ySW/7xWftbNi4Msr5w/cFDvPnVJ98nhrqoNm0yxr/sY5SxsW/bo15+OHHV7Cq3z3bq28psly 5Qdfgz//la0XXBl/Cif8/3tzrtZi/5mJXKwrwivKHb7WvGuLZGznzQ/oC5FcffHJg8SpMgt5 diVyrFNiKc5INNRiLipOBADdA8ReYAIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FBcpau5fUKUwYULlhZHtlxjtNiyqJvF Yn7rMjaLvXNXsDiweOycdZfdY8mSn0weh78uZPFYvOUtYwBLFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGrQ2z WQvWilTcmNfC1sC4RqCLkZNDQsBEYsXTL2xdjFwcQgKHGCXeLrvCDpLgFRCU+DH5HksXIwcH s4C8xMHzsiBhZgEtie+PWlkg6vuZJCZPnAFWLywgLdF14S4rhK0vse/wHnaQXjaghgNrjEDC nAIaEtcvfmQBsVkEVCX2X9sONb5K4sWJMIitNhLfN95hBQkLCRRLnDueBRIWEVCRWD7tGTvE xUoS07/fZpvAKDALyZ2zEO6cheTOBYzMqxgFilJzEiuN9RILCnJS9ZLzczcxgoO1MHgH459l VocYBTgYlXh4I8QnRAmxJpYVV+YCA4KDWUmEd14HUIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjhv o0dvlJBAemJJanZqakFqEUyWiYNTqoGx9sWOTM/jG4zcqxi335r54QHD37l3t8f27H5VILY2 u39/lfo5rpmS5idMc+Rv7ZO/k7PqrsJX68/Tck/P+umTs4Nf44XLEvPnk/5df3+4auIKm+Bj 58R3+exPOy0wq0qqPvDb41deNgXMv7QeGye1rrgw00VzhcXPeXKsXfPfP7U23GO76+ucZ0os xRmJhlrMRcWJAEDdNqdSAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:51:57 -0000 If I understand this correctly, the only benefit of sending TLVs in the clear is to interoperate with devices that have not been configured with the proper authentication. However that won't work, since because they do not have a way to authenticate, all their TLVs will be unauthenticated so we will drop of all them (except Hellos) so we will drop their IHU, so we will never establish bidirectional reachability. That said, by design we do not want to interoperate with nodes that do not have the proper authentication, so sending these TLVs in the clear leaks information without providing benefit. Having each Hello trigger a handshake attempt would work but can generate useless traffic. Blacklisting the device for a given period of time sounds like the best way to limit this traffic. I would argue that such blacklisting is a local implementation matter, but that it perhaps should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to allow a device to recover when it's provisioned with new authentication credentials. David > On Feb 23, 2018, at 15:49, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > >> This is a matter of policy, but if third party can force DTLS handshake >> failure, switch to unauthenticated operation basically means you can >> (potentially) always force unathenticated mode. > > I'm not a specialist, but I don't think we're vulnerable. > > There's two different policies: what you do on reception, and what you do > on emission. > > What you do on reception is clear: if an interface has been configured to > requre authentication, we ignore all unauthenticated TLVs except Hellos. > No exceptions of any kind. > > The question is -- what do we send. If the DTLS handshake succeeded, we > send all unicast TLVs authenticated except for Hellos. If the DTLS > handshake failed, we can: > > - send all TLVs in clear, in case the peer is configured without auth; > - drop the neighbour association, which will cause the next Hello to > trigger a new handshake attempt; > - blacklist the neighbour, so that another Hello will not trigger a new > handshake attempt. > > As far as I can tell, the three options are equivalent from a security > perspective when all routers are configured correctly, since we still > ignore any unauthentified TLVs. They do differ when some routers are > mis-configured, and they don't generate the same amount of traffic. > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Fri Feb 23 16:55:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD6A1205D3 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkQqU4fp3Zzi for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A675612420B for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id s198so12944252qke.5 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=aqI+BhwVk+NACeDxcCAanMoQ7QOjEHNjAWQnW58Bu00=; b=VF2wa1v0hmrVX2k7SASvLTgCLjfuBRwobfznp9WQA+jlEKCLRxMyhtV0DFwQPEchw4 5jq/whnHuPPcbgdYBNsfG23Tnz/C0cWNflzuH0Gh3myAFDrd/p4v/Kq3fz9WvShrt10n Vdb9xXxO+aAEAGdAVpN3WOIQjsW43CnI6w8ZkDT+ZJFFrIrjSkXkrrClJcvX5+SGLFNu e+7vA97j05mwHtDH2EwNUAX854T4MlsLAIZVHAs/7OnlTlnTYJOZckqocg0KdEjoFKyr WLoMIlTS21a/+7cxhmnyfC+1MKUm9BY1pIlb8vzONwu+ukMoqfxPYzZp1vGUrCyHj19Q uVXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=aqI+BhwVk+NACeDxcCAanMoQ7QOjEHNjAWQnW58Bu00=; b=tXgp53g0iWa5wNNhmk2X+2K3c97kEEtyroZfoVoBFz82N5aLogyqrF7biUYh93GmEB mig3g/6+d0ayOFEvB0Z0PvphMxKmEyITLpjfJQab72kkcfZtrosmn7MdopRLytatf2Sv 2kk69Df0X9ZbxFftNSYthRFjhtNL82yfWR2rkNecBwMtKoyVIT8WvN0ngtQ9XvkTEQtq co0uAxDE1Sm7PWsFw7tAxGG7T1gUYMGlwo6A71pcDJbTy0WPU1Oc4noD2JqFRStiv8WY POX1igqDSBKMfeaElj24AJQ8FPUTSsHMpwAfEGiMQvM3KarCl4i1UNgk0WC+Y6+aPq7E T7JQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPDWrp9LWgyaM7lTtSUz7oR+CsqvGn3WgG84tneH6w4s5vQAe7Ht OcvWQ4qQsgBKHXIpINZSKQAeew== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELu8rc4WMf2Av2OBIN1AeGdtovqqa7QAmnN1EQV0QPQxfNHux41JfvvVe8eDijUXd+aV4XRcGw== X-Received: by 10.55.212.150 with SMTP id s22mr5257860qks.85.1519433748680; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b17sm2262842qtb.63.2018.02.23.16.55.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:55:47 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <963718A0-7540-43D3-A0C5-214C7163CFEB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BAA8B2BA-9F1F-41D5-B125-35603A7D096D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:55:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , Markus Stenberg , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org To: David Schinazi References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:55:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BAA8B2BA-9F1F-41D5-B125-35603A7D096D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 23, 2018, at 7:51 PM, David Schinazi wrote: > I would argue that such blacklisting is a local implementation matter, > but that it perhaps should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to = allow > a device to recover when it's provisioned with new authentication = credentials. Beware of the case where the "configuring authentication" and "starting = babel" processes start at the same time. Ten minutes is a long time on = a home network. The customer is probably already on the phone with the = manufacturer when it heals. :) --Apple-Mail=_BAA8B2BA-9F1F-41D5-B125-35603A7D096D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Feb 23, 2018, at 7:51 PM, David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com>= wrote:
I would argue that = such blacklisting is a local implementation matter,
but that it perhaps should have an upper bound = such as 10 minutes to allow
a device to recover = when it's provisioned with new authentication = credentials.

Beware of the case where the "configuring authentication" and = "starting babel" processes start at the same time.   Ten minutes is = a long time on a home network.   The customer is probably already = on the phone with the manufacturer when it heals.   :)

= --Apple-Mail=_BAA8B2BA-9F1F-41D5-B125-35603A7D096D-- From nobody Fri Feb 23 16:58:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57496126CF6 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfkNZIoHOrFi for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.151.62.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C78001205D3 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1519433892; x=2383347492; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=eFvnuu1NZqzuQSSiZc6EwEfQ5YrFzgso9l06QhzSVMQ=; b=f/n8Ie6fa/qj31rifhvM3EOFvCDX9yKl2j2XP1CQn/lRyA9us2iMLe9S8cgLT5zq /D7VpJTpWxYX49tbdqbPcQSmVLqw08ZrPw3RCj0jLigJYdNnwuZeiAzVEUNpdpW0 dhnPlZ4ghBxqEZ9DDU+1e9BrOO6Cl/APyiLLybupG3BTY6N7seT7advGgc+ZP4IE AHkWx8PIbLJ/fFvltggLND4vBQJySVn+g5Bzismabsuo7a4NvbXocw0dO5Z9t0Vd 9o2A05Y2eFrzJmZIYdbBzIvqEq6jRSuORUs1OAIb+9XwmZBZwqB/zbLTNLufqpMZ I/MFpVMK9fGY12EZBVkkTw==; Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.88]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in4.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 24.C5.07147.4A8B09A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e12-d46b29e000001beb-60-5a90b8a40094 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com [17.128.115.122]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 33.1B.23499.4A8B09A5; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_u+uCpwSrihdUGkU3xwmnjw)" Received: from [17.234.44.53] (unknown [17.234.44.53]) by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180130 64bit (built Jan 30 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P4M00M1PQOZFH80@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi Message-id: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:58:10 -0800 In-reply-to: <963718A0-7540-43D3-A0C5-214C7163CFEB@fugue.com> Cc: babel@ietf.org, Markus Stenberg , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> <963718A0-7540-43D3-A0C5-214C7163CFEB@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYobtkx4Qog7nd6hZHtlxjtNiyqJvF Yn7rMjaLvXNXsFi8WXOEyYHVo+nCMnaPnbPusnssWfKTyePw14UsHou3vGUMYI3isklJzcks Sy3St0vgynh5ci9bwQyNitv3JzE1ME5S7mLk5JAQMJH4v+4rSxcjF4eQwGomiak3ljDDJJYf ucoOkTjEKNH+9SErSIJXQFDix+R7LCA2s0CYxLeWmWwQRf1MEtN+TmQESQgLSEt0XbgL1MDB wSagJXFgjRFEr43E9Z9X2CBK9CX2Hd7DDlLCIqAqMX2/BEiYU8BWomviIrCRzALzGCVuzTkI NlJEQEFi7pk1TBC7bjJKbD11nA3iUiWJ6d9vg3VICJxgk+i++5x1AqPQLCTHzkJyLIStJfH9 UStQnAPIlpc4eF4WIqwp8ezeJ3YIW1viybsLrAsY2VYxCuUmZuboZuaZ6CUWFOSk6iXn525i BEXSdDuhHYynVlkdYhTgYFTi4d0gOSFKiDWxrLgy9xCjNAeLkjjvijVAIYH0xJLU7NTUgtSi +KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYwq5jt7VQ/bnrs390+im+56BRdF+w/vNsleFXs5b6VaUpsg177fpQ9+ XL2w8BPD9yrTLcIN3xsmV1Rtr05w+nSy9MIBPWfVkhM8PyUn5e4RFzn2R3zeqQ6rfH85Y159 3YeP+T7OMTvvdWQxzyTj2Vw/W3fMW2Sop398w5KSl6W/Jhhu+xow79BCJZbijERDLeai4kQA AGNTZIUCAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FBcpbtkx4Qog/WvlC2ObLnGaLFlUTeL xfzWZWwWe+euYLF4s+YIkwOrR9OFZeweO2fdZfdYsuQnk8fhrwtZPBZvecsYwBrFZZOSmpNZ llqkb5fAlfHy5F62ghkaFbfvT2JqYJyk3MXIySEhYCKx/MhV9i5GLg4hgUOMEu1fH7KCJHgF BCV+TL7HAmIzC4RJfGuZyQZR1M8kMe3nREaQhLCAtETXhbtADRwcbAJaEgfWGEH02khc/3mF DaJEX2Lf4T3sICUsAqoS0/dLgIQ5BWwluiYuAhvJLDCPUeLWnINgI0UEFCTmnlnDBLHrJqPE 1lPH2SAuVZKY/v022wRG/llI7puF5D4IW0vi+6NWoDgHkC0vcfC8LERYU+LZvU/sELa2xJN3 F1gXMLKtYhQoSs1JrDTVSywoyEnVS87P3cQIDvzCiB2M/5dZHWIU4GBU4uGNEJ8QJcSaWFZc mQsMJA5mJRHeeR1AId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4ryNHr1RQgLpiSWp2ampBalFMFkm Dk6pBsYrXEcnbmYR1sjJnLxsenvat42/LFXOr60x4uDvKjSwiX32d+9i+WObMjxke8yy36m+ WpGw7syeqe5nZzNY2DSebg78Zt91+buPttysZsOux7kJl3qYdoes0F3WU6db4uj3T+ryxUXX 43xZfzIcF4mf2Mwm1R83TaGXRYHB4tWHo+pJEsLqnkosxRmJhlrMRcWJAIH83zh4AgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:58:14 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_u+uCpwSrihdUGkU3xwmnjw) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT True, but a device configured for homenet use should not be sending Babel Hellos before it has received the network configuration - as it has no way of authenticating what it receives. David > On Feb 23, 2018, at 16:55, Ted Lemon wrote: > > On Feb 23, 2018, at 7:51 PM, David Schinazi > wrote: >> I would argue that such blacklisting is a local implementation matter, >> but that it perhaps should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to allow >> a device to recover when it's provisioned with new authentication credentials. > > Beware of the case where the "configuring authentication" and "starting babel" processes start at the same time. Ten minutes is a long time on a home network. The customer is probably already on the phone with the manufacturer when it heals. :) > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel --Boundary_(ID_u+uCpwSrihdUGkU3xwmnjw) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable True,= but a device configured for homenet use should not be sending Babel = Hellos
before it has received the network configuration - = as it has no way of authenticating
what it = receives.

David


On Feb = 23, 2018, at 16:55, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

On Feb 23, 2018, at = 7:51 PM, David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com> wrote:
I would argue that such blacklisting is a = local implementation matter,
but that it perhaps = should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to allow
a device to recover when it's provisioned with = new authentication credentials.

Beware of the case where the "configuring = authentication" and "starting babel" processes start at the same time. =   Ten minutes is a long time on a home network.   The customer = is probably already on the phone with the manufacturer when it heals. =   :)

_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel

= --Boundary_(ID_u+uCpwSrihdUGkU3xwmnjw)-- From nobody Fri Feb 23 17:06:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4280412420B for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZUnagasnIP5w for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF65D1205D3 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s198so12964646qke.5 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=oKLXLsbR0w4w5zwXyjDypHUs+dgpPapiZX5Yu1zZ69I=; b=lAXRicN/K/AOTv1+F/ttEGewvCGTfcVH8oU48QCIWSDuJ0beMS2Mve8b0NH6muuJFn ZkkDAGL1qbfuD/7nwbhxkRR4ns+A/etLPTOM0dbWOTRbsoY6tPD5NKs7FHIHSO84EWRV GBI1/bzOvRIXM80o5/Ti/r6L4ORT+j5kyRProap2aVO9atySv1eApd1FgO1aoRa/Vztq Gm3ggr6tODLO2NdDvzI+GYZ7elMNnTum8y4fRPJQk/5qm9lPovOltrxg1xHi6TaVYYj6 fLz8xbWYPeBRX7H8i1zPS7IKcW27Dz8xrjMr68UyF6qP5S9PdTodQz3W3qWq36nFZW73 //hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=oKLXLsbR0w4w5zwXyjDypHUs+dgpPapiZX5Yu1zZ69I=; b=DeIp9R305Ejopl2+OWKnyPpyx6+xcKogPudDKrVz0ZcoI07K5y0iMko/5Ru/SOXKgk /Kr+Msx0nTOmgU9ruphibb40WZ2D1IARvB+353cJ2yAwkT7JElgs3DDTIxNTwMdNMYjR lJ+12y48yfW4Te/5P6+sFb5d3SFv49saOHyPBK7KWxF7W5O5Qnec9iokDvPcwJFRJiJN ZUG0R33Y6G9pAWxFpjL7HfB/73yiH0TIEWp5xLSGBlzXEQyuPTaUR38uJhyWXG1nuXDQ MyEb+trdu/uMxGYPtoh6UsXQX2YtOM8WyZUXhEnF4ofpqGcsfmTEoKF+Q1dv8EdJY/I1 M6lg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAWMMDKsJ20yZBpv3o5TlP7hKxh2sjedBtITkTB7+myieKmbBi9 jLUTbh1zf6BoQQf41FLR2HZxqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvnnihhF3rmds+CBve5ByxfOP873rXOzF5EYm6SrkKjbfo+YeYKpfT8p/6wt0MwCOBDpzNqyg== X-Received: by 10.55.26.35 with SMTP id a35mr5662809qka.308.1519434399156; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm2376327qtf.52.2018.02.23.17.06.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:06:38 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <5C30550F-B94B-423C-9451-D78C142505CC@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1286DD6-F10E-4B04-8CD1-49FF293877C7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 20:06:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: babel@ietf.org, Markus Stenberg , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> <963718A0-7540-43D3-A0C5-214C7163CFEB@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 01:06:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B1286DD6-F10E-4B04-8CD1-49FF293877C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 23, 2018, at 7:58 PM, David Schinazi wrote: > True, but a device configured for homenet use should not be sending = Babel Hellos > before it has received the network configuration - as it has no way of = authenticating > what it receives. Is this captured in the Homenet Babel protocol doc? :) --Apple-Mail=_B1286DD6-F10E-4B04-8CD1-49FF293877C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Feb 23, 2018, at 7:58 PM, David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com>= wrote:
True, but a device configured = for homenet use should not be sending Babel Hellos
before it = has received the network configuration - as it has no way of = authenticating
what it = receives.

Is = this captured in the Homenet Babel protocol doc?   :)

= --Apple-Mail=_B1286DD6-F10E-4B04-8CD1-49FF293877C7-- From nobody Fri Feb 23 19:23:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4ABB126BF6 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:23:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.36 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kapsi.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2VBxv_gHryi for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.kapsi.fi (mail.kapsi.fi [IPv6:2001:67c:1be8::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5B4612422F for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:23:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kapsi.fi; s=20161220; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=CPQjIJnuFNtxekbM6RXBtsi2MKkAHoTNXsYoig5jGwE=; b=ki1gjsZ7LIHDEyxFzIdv3mEdngdycn/N9vE+JveZ62nsl5S9BXH29Z1M1jA8Kv0SCcmYaoI/vxMMKqwJmb9JZVCimUR2aG6xG94RjtdUqHrkjl39hBiaGz4Z8Aup3mYESFVMPzVu8WVkb9mpuf0RhS7QcyE+OJM8gU4hOshg5wOqgeUmJELQttdhUN4QMdoESX0ieRLOpVY9Gvw52fWl0e2GaNtqTchWYt9DE30wNcr9X1iD748iBETyPxCvG3nVbdrP+DWyTq2a5oPECElDlqYgKZjjrzHboBiAfQ3bSEAXyHkvCD2gkTyvuh/mgeEnAQGDIZZy7Aj4gh8hWf9dCA==; Received: from 91-155-69-187.elisa-laajakaista.fi ([91.155.69.187] helo=poro.lan) by mail.kapsi.fi with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epQR4-0007On-Jb; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:23:42 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:23:41 +0200 Cc: David Schinazi , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 91.155.69.187 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: markus.stenberg@iki.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.kapsi.fi); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:23:50 -0000 On 24 Feb 2018, at 1.49, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> This is a matter of policy, but if third party can force DTLS = handshake >> failure, switch to unauthenticated operation basically means you can >> (potentially) always force unathenticated mode. >=20 > I'm not a specialist, but I don't think we're vulnerable. >=20 > There's two different policies: what you do on reception, and what you = do > on emission. >=20 > What you do on reception is clear: if an interface has been configured = to > requre authentication, we ignore all unauthenticated TLVs except = Hellos. > No exceptions of any kind. >=20 > The question is -- what do we send. If the DTLS handshake succeeded, = we > send all unicast TLVs authenticated except for Hellos. If the DTLS > handshake failed, we can: >=20 > - send all TLVs in clear, in case the peer is configured without = auth; This is somewhat problematic as then it can be potentially forced to do = this with creative shenaginans (forged packets etc), leaking the = information. However, if this configuration is just a corner case that = is allowed for to allow non-DTLS interoperability I suppose it is fine.=20= > - drop the neighbour association, which will cause the next Hello to > trigger a new handshake attempt; This s problematic as if the network has one =E2=80=98legacy=E2=80=99 = node, it will cause frequent handshakes (and also is potentially highly = DoSable if one really cares about such things as DTLS sessions consume = both CPU and memory). > - blacklist the neighbour, so that another Hello will not trigger a = new > handshake attempt. I would probably add per-neighbor blacklist and total DTLS concurrent = handshake limit per time window for whole device, as you will otherwise = wind up running out of resources anyway (IPv6 has plenty of addresses). I am not sure how much of this should be in spec and how much is = implementation matter though. > As far as I can tell, the three options are equivalent from a security > perspective when all routers are configured correctly, since we still > ignore any unauthentified TLVs. They do differ when some routers are > mis-configured, and they don't generate the same amount of traffic. Depends on the perspective you define :-) First one can be made leak = information but if it is just configuration knob to enable I suppose it = should be fine; second one is bit vulnerable in terms of resource = exhaustion attacks. Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Sat Feb 24 03:17:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3F812AF83 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:17:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HVEahh3HIx4a for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B56012AAB6 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w1OBGeHT031149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:40 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id w1OBGdLO001740; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:39 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C41EB6AB; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:37 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id YG7F2dzCTlyw; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5157BEB3AC; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87a7vyr627.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: Ted Lemon , babel@ietf.org, Markus Stenberg , Antonin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9cimo?= In-Reply-To: References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> <963718A0-7540-43D3-A0C5-214C7163CFEB@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:41 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:41 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A914998.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5A914997.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A914998.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A914997.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A914998.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A914997.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:17:18 -0000 > True, but a device configured for homenet use should not be sending > Babel Hellos before it has received the network configuration - as it > has no way of authenticating what it receives. Not necessarily. If a device has statically configured interfaces, it is perfectly permissible to start helloing before HNCP has converged. In particular, with shncpd you start babeld and shncpd simultaneously, and they deal with any configuration changes. (That's a little more difficult with border border detection, since you cannot speak Babel on an interface before you've determined its type. I don't care, since I happen to think that border detection is unreliable and insecure, and configure all of my routers with static interface types.) -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Feb 24 03:27:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFE9128954 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:27:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBZXwVLT9wdS for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C02B9127909 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id w1OBQwsq000794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:58 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id w1OBQxHf003242; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:59 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F789EB6AC; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:58 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id QFIp3lm0XJ48; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8FE42EB6AB; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:57 +0100 Message-ID: <878tbir5ku.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: Markus Stenberg , Antonin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9c?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?imo?= , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:26:58 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:27:00 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5A914C02.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5A914C03.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A914C02.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5A914C03.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A914C02.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5A914C03.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:27:05 -0000 > I would argue that such blacklisting is a local implementation matter, > but that it perhaps should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to allow > a device to recover when it's provisioned with new authentication credentials. I think Ted is right, David -- making a node unreachable for 10 minutes after it failed a DTLS handshake is a bad idea. Older versions of babeld used to keep a silent time of 100 seconds at startup (since they lost their loop-avoidance state), and users complained. A possibility I didn't consider is to augment Hellos with a mandatory sub-TLV that indicates that authentication is required. This way the node will not be discover routers running without auth, and, conversely, it won't be discovered by such routers. Perhaps that's overkill, though. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Feb 24 07:06:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0F1124217 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:06:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vddJViZFBwlh for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5C3D1201FA for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1519484778; bh=Bh23pOcTQCsCdAOOJpx+LYI8LQfhEevcHLxq5z7NoI0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=PfB4Dt2u5WfNwVoDL6IZrzJPqe7VyiJQRFnJnTHbYYtomXp8WfLd5o7J+4YSxQzD8 O4lUaylfqapxbRqyLTFTzG2xjnBzS8tH3jnl3zkSzYuHsRNsYoWzjkd1Dkw1PTVnOc atkBaX2e0xfwxyM46sbbS3c6aPVn1avsr2LJOBVQBJki24w4CS6p1rGVJhAqtJM5in CceJ91/BI57dOCYUJtrocr5lpqTA0/moeajZ/X/i2D2n+qZX47EHEvlFFJjvFZPFIv ZSj/fOCA1q6HROl6HAIOwrcnoR6G0e5PG9GVcge8EqsPuMYr/p2SSNB8N1NyTrYDQD L0VAjnRw9GcHA== To: Juliusz Chroboczek , David Schinazi Cc: Markus Stenberg , Antonin =?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A9cim?= =?utf-8?Q?o?= , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <878tbir5ku.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> <878tbir5ku.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:06:18 +0100 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87371qqvf9.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:06:22 -0000 Juliusz Chroboczek writes: >> I would argue that such blacklisting is a local implementation matter, >> but that it perhaps should have an upper bound such as 10 minutes to allow >> a device to recover when it's provisioned with new authentication credentials. > > I think Ted is right, David -- making a node unreachable for 10 minutes > after it failed a DTLS handshake is a bad idea. Older versions of babeld > used to keep a silent time of 100 seconds at startup (since they lost > their loop-avoidance state), and users complained. > > A possibility I didn't consider is to augment Hellos with a mandatory > sub-TLV that indicates that authentication is required. This way the node > will not be discover routers running without auth, and, conversely, it > won't be discovered by such routers. Perhaps that's overkill, though. Couldn't you just make the blacklist duration exponentially increasing up to a maximum? Start with 1 second, then go up until you hit the 10 minute mark? That would handle the "HNCP has not converged yet" failure mode without risking the human users timing out and calling support... -Toke From nobody Sat Feb 24 07:41:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C959C1270FC for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PwPPb4NVZanA for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22b.google.com (mail-qt0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EC52127077 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g60so14084850qtd.11 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=NbiabDiVD9tqL1RQkVkoLLfekiB14jkIT26XdnE05Ow=; b=1t3NshRTCiT2vDAPufjOaciVuY/+utjBAuwi0TgpTdlxqBfqoVfgE6GUzter0/Ibaq BjZww9pJO5H4w+3ydUW0uCHNA14HfIQ92/3gY9pt+w878gVIMYeMrfkxKxRKLpnW4nBB OoqDeUgzmUxUIraSnMD5vDCL4o0IvUyTey3MOHjy1+ffbg/dStqwwi+caUeAJR6s1d10 c7fW3A+8z9MG9zoiyrur4f2Xa1tNJvyC9jb98onl1248sI+Q5sBLV+RLRiiJfwlqgVU3 WTmWP0UVKabkDIKm6KMPWyorpnk8L24FwUCuDaktBmtEFdHQczzHQSLliohqrd44yCqg e0zg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=NbiabDiVD9tqL1RQkVkoLLfekiB14jkIT26XdnE05Ow=; b=l+2cR0dxuG34MrIQJmfGeKoDo6JI9wmltkwETbCPsSmcYw72Guo/ZKXYyflF65+1Rg XAsAq3h2RQn2ARB2OXLiGZySdmN9VcXYZHbUsmLDX7dJ7ZxOM+nQq1+pTU+NbYcFvG+2 ppMo4GunC1P0NPHio00+sxq75CdmBFueSzPTId8GQfltlWeah/MnnOw/fDuX1mZF8nHs DWetru45Sfm9P8bADvzJ/j0mcQyGqctlNj3BUH69A7gT3KtCQGc59JTWUz9QpckZrWTk NDuVqhirp9bYhZNI3TphsoUbknxkVwT8zhxUo3RTN9wTJcNZwy2AuVhR7xluBorGbSA6 p0gQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPD8qXONoAfYJJPi3KdXiXQ88R5UzWyFgCYyiMKb7RJ1dQU8cB8Q /584lOEPsC0C2bVXvyH5IrsWDg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsZSP9dgGVQtV9byNrTk6sU1I/4NOX7b5JQCCjm/BLuJY5eqcdyfx0g7Bi8ayOjQHLWFWFk8g== X-Received: by 10.237.63.117 with SMTP id q50mr8502881qtf.308.1519486900106; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e21sm2469703qka.11.2018.02.24.07.41.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <617FDE4C-54A0-409D-B57E-C44D400CAA9D@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_45D2A18C-D736-42AF-90E8-BE6BD259034F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:41:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87371qqvf9.fsf@toke.dk> Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , David Schinazi , Markus Stenberg , =?utf-8?Q?Antonin_D=C3=A9cimo?= , babel@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= References: <87lgfjy30o.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87a7vz1d24.wl-jch@irif.fr> <8B753728-5D16-497C-BDBB-72B1A2B136DE@apple.com> <878tbir5ku.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87371qqvf9.fsf@toke.dk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] DTLS and handshake failure X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:41:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45D2A18C-D736-42AF-90E8-BE6BD259034F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 24, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen = wrote: > Couldn't you just make the blacklist duration exponentially increasing > up to a maximum? Start with 1 second, then go up until you hit the 10 > minute mark? That would handle the "HNCP has not converged yet" = failure > mode without risking the human users timing out and calling support... When coming up with the number "10 minutes," it might be worth asking = what the failure mode is that we're trying to avoid. Is it really so = expensive to deal with these handshakes that we have to limit them this = much? Why is 10 minutes a better number than 10 seconds? --Apple-Mail=_45D2A18C-D736-42AF-90E8-BE6BD259034F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 24, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen <toke@toke.dk> = wrote:
Couldn't you just = make the blacklist duration exponentially increasing
up to a maximum? Start with 1 second, then go up = until you hit the 10
minute mark? That = would handle the "HNCP has not converged yet" failure
mode without risking the human users timing out = and calling support...

When coming up with the number "10 minutes," it might be = worth asking what the failure mode is that we're trying to avoid.   = Is it really so expensive to deal with these handshakes that we have to = limit them this much?   Why is 10 minutes a better number than 10 = seconds?

= --Apple-Mail=_45D2A18C-D736-42AF-90E8-BE6BD259034F-- From nobody Sun Feb 25 08:15:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED7912025C; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9GJSb_1OFYf; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22d.google.com (mail-it0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77E3A1201FA; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id u5so8335383itc.1; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GQrJeOoLRsPJsmhxxu65j1OodStUwOoJbPaHj7g7L8M=; b=IgoXzu2yuwTfYvzgoFvMB9svLVkHQjFEMiDH/4y69668wBh26PnXv6AOo523NHERJ2 /YglMpyJnMqUWT4kh8Y3HLJppX1P67MkgrjVfjHhH5ZI2wSL3+ZEFnPvHy6JY4vqs9h6 XQs9Ye/iq+aM5/SqQodf2wHrprE+USt4GV0RG+d9uzphmJL3EffTELkSm9GdZGiXdjsZ 1BvSeQeJ2qtmN97F0uiR8UgWJS8ho3U6q4nTFnXsti8T2WjzqgN+7sAKx93/JcMmL7xZ IXxy5ZK9NP3LEhm8xDPRXuEbTryAp/i51rXZBecmGcQWG2g0DNuBkyzmpiHN3ZGSWfLQ 7JUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GQrJeOoLRsPJsmhxxu65j1OodStUwOoJbPaHj7g7L8M=; b=V3Yvkc077cVL76i3XOACOspRGWmMDUQ2Nf/yQp3OO4E+BQ5c8t2GJDWtgpZFTr1Lpf tgifWMiM0OUtO5qmA7JPNxKFF/whLEhUDdtd4sF0DHlsISDU8mMgcU2mbJeBDWpDKfGQ PtS7cjEVsD4w6LTbY76qUbjgEG7bwx/ZqaXb/kuGqVanPXYH4HbBGTIihcI/QKqRj43m XOBh2LhG+yyEkmujIa0Xfm/vYIoZ8msXCOb0ritjkM8rOLTaTgf3D6GfM0RJNxwkshe4 ZAcBVPlHkFJlE98mV7QUcuQjax55mdaxLIsRGdy+ySB6iJCF1bh2qu9/Y6E/bjNf5oL7 4FfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBkUcqitsYK5zm4M2ROBnqn+dRTOPFcaInpF/19/z6ycink5qUG CH/sjVREmdAqcDLpc/8yT9mw4gfnktaHVFNxA6XycK0b X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuG+VPslyn6Yhv7yV5T5zR+qSMcK2E/zbgTibXVUFBwcRA8LYO34V/SKXbDUDD1kTvsYThorsXWaJnMRcTtoZE= X-Received: by 10.36.46.22 with SMTP id i22mr864270ita.59.1519575323490; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.57.193 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Feb 2018 08:15:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 11:15:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Cc: babel-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a98ba5dc20405660bb348" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] BABEL at IETF London meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:15:26 -0000 --001a114a98ba5dc20405660bb348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Although still possibly subject to change, the BABEL WG meeting has been confirmed for 18:10 to 19:10 Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Hi, > > The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10 > Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London. > > If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or > to babel-chairs@ietf.org. > > Thanks, > Donald > =============================== > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > --001a114a98ba5dc20405660bb348 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Although still possibly subject to change, the=C2=A0BABEL=C2=A0WG meeting has been confirmed for 18:10 to 19:10=C2=A0Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in= =C2=A0London.

Thanks,
Donald
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (= cell)
=C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Donald East= lake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

The BABEL WG meeting has been tentatively scheduled for 18:10 to 19:10
Thursday, 22 March, at the upcoming IETF meeting in London.

If you would like to present, send a request to the WG mailing list or
to babel-chairs@ietf.org.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=C2=A0 =C2=A0+1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

--001a114a98ba5dc20405660bb348-- From nobody Tue Feb 27 15:12:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietf.org Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CB912EA8C; Tue, 27 Feb 2018 15:11:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: babel@ietf.org, akatlas@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.73.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151977306920.5200.16720896452429002338.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 15:11:09 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] babel - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 101 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 23:11:09 -0000 Dear Donald Eastlake, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. babel Session 1 (1:30:00) Thursday, Afternoon Session III 1810-1910 Room Name: Park Suite size: 100 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Donald Eastlake Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 42 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: netconf netmod rtgwg idr lpwan homenet manet mptcp Second Priority: dnsop 6man v6ops trill i2rs Third Priority: saag isis ospf dnssd tsvwg People who must be present: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd Russ White Alia Atlas Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------