From nobody Sun Oct 19 23:39:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59421A6FB6 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRBfgynls1Dr for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 153B01A1BE1 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 2014 23:39:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2515; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413787192; x=1414996792; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=paNm3NAC6FYGwquUimHZIvImoC6zWWx5Xvg6w4ZeVH4=; b=PpDETbJgb89pZ/4REQdAAXNFWH6NSHjY8xFPjEKYSqzU5yKsNP9VeTWf ZgKd0fjXniJ0xjdE0cDLZFVRlL+UbSoM/QDpJSJc9CX12W/JEqOwnU8UR QuZBXr73uvdWlMDHUUvQU1h3h2GqXE5lOafagljlk1WXM/juw5pRQw8wy 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0KAJitRFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABbvUIBAQEBAQEFAXOZXAKBJAF9hAMBAQMBeQULUVcGE4g3CMBaAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4Yjii4Hgy2BHgEEnVmBMI1WgxuEAYN5Oy+CSwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,752,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="213015860" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 06:39:50 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9K6dnGB016501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:39:50 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:39:48 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/a2kGMnCmfO6jvnOuArll9fZqdW8 Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:39:53 -0000 Hi Xiaohu, + bier@ietf.org >> I've already answered that on the bier list. Moreover, how much of = MPLS >> remains with BIER? Its really an encapsulation indirection that = allows us to do >> really useful stuff. If we decide to remove that indirection, we just = have to >> replace some of the fields we get for free in MPLS in a new encoding. = This is no >=20 > There is no free lunch. When using the MPLS-BIER label as an = indirection layer, you would have to introduce an additional mechanism = for MPLS-BIER label distribution which is otherwise not required in the = case where a transport- True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. But you have to = advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and potential MT-ID = through the network as well, attaching a Label value to that update is = not a big deal. > independent BIER header is used. Furthermore, when this technology is = applied to the data center networks, the usage of MPLS labels is not = much popular. If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an = independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some = reserved label for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with = the bathwater. We are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for = {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that = Tony is working on). Having this indirection is very useful because it = saves us many lookups and makes the forwarding plane independent of any = of these values, which also allows us to modify and add new values = without the need to change the data-plane. This is an advantage that = MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts if we through that out. If datacenter like to use BIER (and don=92t want MPLS), we can just = define an encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the = encapsulation generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as how = its implemented in the router should be generic such that it can be = re-used, it does not mean the encapsulation that the BIER BitString = comes in has to be generic. If you want a beer, do you care if it comes = in a can or a bottle? :-) Thx, Ice. >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 >> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer = comes in the >> mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that comes via MPLS, >> ethernet, or something else, does not matter. >>=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >=20 From nobody Mon Oct 20 00:49:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5251A6FD2 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZCYd56pQYnsv for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x235.google.com (mail-ig0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDAD91A0030 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f181.google.com with SMTP id r10so4087983igi.8 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RZN2GpX7MckjPcaqkBqcd2DfcPBPgOeGC5Pc5WLG+GI=; b=wlCPZtmd7CEATba3ql/yVXRoKFdmBpoiBzdx14Sz8h70z5qlYP1FhmZksHjP9MFm5T XevbH6t6LDjbopWMrMNWpk0uRAJCzjPuobq37wUUICCFtUjZYde+QFLn5SzX1anC5su7 csDo+vGEh7GzbBAFqFr/PVfKG0KmEfsFUE2VgH8HPYbnP827oU57NgaL+xqZng9u2usk PICRql6Cj56TOCpLV+YyPl2S4qE8ZdF82IONWoF88D0aeJV1kuYAEg4XVupsYREeb+Px 4oRiIgTXRFHIn7zkE22ocLy0lUScFil2Z7z5MAqTePW681/ckHX1bxXnfKLMnNkI+8h9 FU+Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.85.44 with SMTP id e12mr16108382igz.17.1413791354389; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:49:14 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: TZ0U2orCVa5YMZmwg9GevWIAjnE Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/qOhM2zXUgHHcumWhJ6IJR_ZsHgE Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 07:49:16 -0000 Hey Ice, > True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. I wonder why did you choose to do that as opposed to define a "well known" label value which would punt the packets to BIER switching path ? Is this for MVPN reasons so upon arrival packets will end up already in different contexts ? If so do you plan to carry now in IGP as much BIER MPLS labels as number of PEs * number of BIER enabled VPNs on each PE ? > But you have to advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and > potential MT-ID through the network as well, attaching a Label value to > that update is not a big deal. Well that is an option. Alternative would be to leave the IGP (or in general routing) alone and only say via I2RS distribute BIER info as an pure overlay to both - edges and participating P nodes. > If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an indep= endent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some reserved labe= l for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwater. We = are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitStri= ng Length} (and potentially some other value that Tony is working on). Havi= ng this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups and mak= es the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which also allo= ws us to modify and add new values without the need to change the data-plan= e. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts i= f we through that out. Why I would love to let's not argue about MPLS or no MPLS this time. You need some demux field. Such demux can be GRE key or MPLS label or LISP Instance ID .. that does not matter that much. All of your ingredients as well as new ones can be converted into such value and used in a *single* lookup. You claim let's use MPLS as the lookup table is ready for it - that is true and I would not much argue about that - at least for those devices which support MPLS lookup. How about those which do not and are not going to ? Think about l3vpn for end systems draft (or soon RFC) to start with .... Do you really want to limit BIER so narror to think about only few vendors core boxes ? What seems however much more important here is amount of state you are going to add to plain IGP to accommodate your current or TonyP's future ideas ... yes IGP is already polluted to some extend, but I think we have now learned a bit more from past mistakes and at least some folks are shifting applications to where they belong .. ie overlay layer. > > If datacenter like to use BIER (and don=E2=80=99t want MPLS), we can just= define an encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the enc= apsulation generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as how its im= plemented in the router should be generic such that it can be re-used, it d= oes not mean the encapsulation that the BIER BitString comes in has to be g= eneric. If you want a beer, do you care if it comes in a can or a bottle? := -) No. That would be no point .. sorry. There is nothing which would prevent new header to work in WAN as well so if we ack that current proposed header does not solve the problem it needs to be fixed generically. Best, r. > > Thx, > > Ice. > >> >> Best regards, >> Xiaohu >> >>> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer comes = in the >>> mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that comes via MPLS, >>> ethernet, or something else, does not matter. >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> Ice. >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:15:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BEB61A6FE8 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eDkWwC-TVnnH for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 222721A6FE3 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNV27164; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:15:25 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:15:19 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4jzDQ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:19 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C30C5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/c-eQ555lv4xbNobBxFzkvHqv3c0 Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:31 -0000 Hi Ice, > -----Original Message----- > From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 2:40 PM > To: Xuxiaohu > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: BIER encapsulation >=20 > Hi Xiaohu, >=20 > + bier@ietf.org >=20 > >> I've already answered that on the bier list. Moreover, how much of > >> MPLS remains with BIER? Its really an encapsulation indirection that > >> allows us to do really useful stuff. If we decide to remove that > >> indirection, we just have to replace some of the fields we get for > >> free in MPLS in a new encoding. This is no > > > > There is no free lunch. When using the MPLS-BIER label as an > > indirection layer, you would have to introduce an additional mechanism > > for MPLS-BIER label distribution which is otherwise not required in > > the case where a transport- >=20 > True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. But you have to adver= tise > your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and potential MT-ID through the > network as well, attaching a Label value to that update is not a big deal= . Although attaching a label to that update is not a big deal, it implies tha= t intermediate routers would have to support the MPLS data plane which is o= therwise not needed at all in the transport-independent BIER encapsulation = scheme (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-01) and the= mappings of BFR-ID and BFR-prefix which are otherwise only meaningful for = adjacent peers would have be unnecessarily flooded across the whole IGP are= a or ever domain. BTW, you actually don't have to advertise the BFR-ID (whi= ch is only needed for ingress and egress routers) and MT-ID (https://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-bier-cap-00) . > > independent BIER header is used. Furthermore, when this technology is > applied to the data center networks, the usage of MPLS labels is not much > popular. >=20 > If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an indep= endent > BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some reserved label for= BIER. It depends on whether the BIER-encapsulated packets need to traverse LSPs i= n most cases. If no, that reserved label for indicating the MPLS payload is= a BIER-encapsulated packet is not needed at all. That's the reason that I = prefer to a transport-independent BIER encapsulation header rather than an = MPLS-coupled BIER encapsulation header.=20 > If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwater. We are using = the > BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitString Length} (= and > potentially some other value that Tony is working on). Having this indire= ction is > very useful because it saves us many lookups and makes the forwarding pla= ne > independent of any of these values, which also allows us to modify and ad= d new > values without the need to change the data-plane. This is an advantage th= at > MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts if we through that out. IMHO, no change to the DATA FORMAT doesn't mean no change to the DATA PLANE= when modifying and adding new values/fields. > If datacenter like to use BIER (and don't want MPLS), we can just define = an > encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the encapsulatio= n > generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as how its implemented= in the > router should be generic such that it can be re-used, it does not mean th= e > encapsulation that the BIER BitString comes in has to be generic. If you = want a > beer, do you care if it comes in a can or a bottle? :-) If a single forwarding plane (i.e., the BIER forwarding plane) is good enou= gh, why introduce two (i.e., MPLS forwarding plane and BIER forwarding plan= e)? Best regards, Xiaohu > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 > > > > Best regards, > > Xiaohu > > > >> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer > >> comes in the mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that > >> comes via MPLS, ethernet, or something else, does not matter. > >> > >> Thx, > >> > >> Ice. > > From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:16:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B8C1A6FE6 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6VTVbChgqayL for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 114BF1A6FE3 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:15:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3491; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413792953; x=1415002553; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=y0WBB3Zxhw6OWWKIZz3K3mTK/7/8C+yfVnNFJiN3qsw=; b=lZdoAdHvA/OC634QhVIrkZz0pxGjzu+UJdToVtu/EEv33lIlmwrNZ3OB 8FL9L47m+r8YwhwcuRL4f9HvpCkZC9g5AFoYaPgSKxcEVkQF9dso6qPOL gyx1J2Km3+ASs50UNv4uBd/Oo3DZdwcMmx9Spu/wOK2Y6ESImBKDazVyg U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0KABTERFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABbvUIBAQEBAQEFAXOZXAKBJAF9hAMBAQMBbA0FCwtGVwaISgjBTQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGI4lMCwYBHTMHgy2BHgEEnVmBMI1WgxuEAYN5O4E2CBeBJQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,754,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="217859274" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 08:15:51 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9K8Fna4020930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:49 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:15:48 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/SFNbbWtCCbcHud4nTjrJG4kf-6g Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:58 -0000 Hi Robert, > I wonder why did you choose to do that as opposed to define a "well > known" label value which would punt the packets to BIER switching path > ? I answered that in the last email: ... Having this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups = and makes the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which = also allows us to modify and add new values without the need to change = the data-plane. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we = would be nuts if we through that out. ... >=20 > Is this for MVPN reasons so upon arrival packets will end up already > in different contexts ? If so do you plan to carry now in IGP as much > BIER MPLS labels as number of PEs * number of BIER enabled VPNs on > each PE ? No. >=20 >> But you have to advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and >> potential MT-ID through the network as well, attaching a Label value = to >> that update is not a big deal. >=20 > Well that is an option. >=20 > Alternative would be to leave the IGP (or in general routing) alone > and only say via I2RS distribute BIER info as an pure overlay to both > - edges and participating P nodes. The BFR-id needs to be known on all IGP routers in the network, this is = not an overlay function. >=20 >=20 >> If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an = independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some = reserved label for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with = the bathwater. We are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for = {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that = Tony is working on). Having this indirection is very useful because it = saves us many lookups and makes the forwarding plane independent of any = of these values, which also allows us to modify and add new values = without the need to change the data-plane. This is an advantage that = MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts if we through that out. >=20 >=20 > Why I would love to let's not argue about MPLS or no MPLS this time. > You need some demux field. Such demux can be GRE key or MPLS label or > LISP Instance ID .. that does not matter that much. All of your > ingredients as well as new ones can be converted into such value and > used in a *single* lookup. Yes, its just that your =91key=92 becomes very long. We can of course = re-invent the same functionality and call it something different... > How about those which do not and are not going to ? Think about l3vpn > for end systems draft (or soon RFC) to start with .... Do you really > want to limit BIER so narror to think about only few vendors core > boxes ? I see no problem in defining a new encapsulation for BIER in non-MPLS = networks. I don=92t see what the value is in a generic encapsulation = where we throw away benefits we get through MPLS. Yes, we can re-invent = those benefits back into it, but what have we gained. Just more = complexity.=20 > What seems however much more important here is amount of state you are > going to add to plain IGP to accommodate your current or TonyP's > future ideas ... yes IGP is already polluted to some extend, but I > think we have now learned a bit more from past mistakes and at least > some folks are shifting applications to where they belong .. ie > overlay layer. I=92m all for overlay in this context. Thx, Ice. From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:22:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0071A6FD1 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:22:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SvdXZMv3advJ for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F9E11A6F39 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKS59302; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:22:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:22:12 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:22:03 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Xuxiaohu , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4jzDQgAAV5ZA= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:22:02 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C30E2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/HMLBybJH7A8PpXflzDgT_OfesYE Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:22:17 -0000 Just fix an error. > -----Original Message----- > From: Xuxiaohu > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:15 PM > To: 'IJsbrand Wijnands' > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: RE: BIER encapsulation >=20 > Hi Ice, >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com] > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 2:40 PM > > To: Xuxiaohu > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: BIER encapsulation > > > > Hi Xiaohu, > > > > + bier@ietf.org > > > > >> I've already answered that on the bier list. Moreover, how much of > > >> MPLS remains with BIER? Its really an encapsulation indirection > > >> that allows us to do really useful stuff. If we decide to remove > > >> that indirection, we just have to replace some of the fields we get > > >> for free in MPLS in a new encoding. This is no > > > > > > There is no free lunch. When using the MPLS-BIER label as an > > > indirection layer, you would have to introduce an additional > > > mechanism for MPLS-BIER label distribution which is otherwise not > > > required in the case where a transport- > > > > True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. But you have to > > advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and potential MT-ID > > through the network as well, attaching a Label value to that update is = not a big > deal. >=20 > Although attaching a label to that update is not a big deal, it implies t= hat > intermediate routers would have to support the MPLS data plane which is > otherwise not needed at all in the transport-independent BIER encapsulati= on > scheme (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-01) and t= he > mappings of BFR-ID and BFR-prefix which are otherwise only meaningful for s/the mappings of BFR-ID and BFR-prefix/the BIER-MPLS labels Best regards, Xiaohu > adjacent peers would have be unnecessarily flooded across the whole IGP a= rea > or ever domain. BTW, you actually don't have to advertise the BFR-ID (whi= ch is > only needed for ingress and egress routers) and MT-ID > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-bier-cap-00) . >=20 > > > independent BIER header is used. Furthermore, when this technology > > > is > > applied to the data center networks, the usage of MPLS labels is not > > much popular. > > > > If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an > > independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some > reserved label for BIER. >=20 > It depends on whether the BIER-encapsulated packets need to traverse LSPs= in > most cases. If no, that reserved label for indicating the MPLS payload is= a > BIER-encapsulated packet is not needed at all. That's the reason that I p= refer to a > transport-independent BIER encapsulation header rather than an MPLS-coupl= ed > BIER encapsulation header. >=20 > > If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwater. We are > > using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, > > BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that Tony is > > working on). Having this indirection is very useful because it saves > > us many lookups and makes the forwarding plane independent of any of > > these values, which also allows us to modify and add new values > > without the need to change the data-plane. This is an advantage that MP= LS > bring to the table and we would be nuts if we through that out. >=20 > IMHO, no change to the DATA FORMAT doesn't mean no change to the DATA > PLANE when modifying and adding new values/fields. >=20 > > If datacenter like to use BIER (and don't want MPLS), we can just > > define an encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the > > encapsulation generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as > > how its implemented in the router should be generic such that it can > > be re-used, it does not mean the encapsulation that the BIER BitString > > comes in has to be generic. If you want a beer, do you care if it > > comes in a can or a bottle? :-) >=20 > If a single forwarding plane (i.e., the BIER forwarding plane) is good en= ough, > why introduce two (i.e., MPLS forwarding plane and BIER forwarding plane)= ? >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 > > Thx, > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Xiaohu > > > > > >> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer > > >> comes in the mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that > > >> comes via MPLS, ethernet, or something else, does not matter. > > >> > > >> Thx, > > >> > > >> Ice. > > > From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:35:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612C41A00D4 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adjLAjHMu4oR for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B59D1A0155 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id a13so4884284igq.7 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=wDUam4ypYnG4K/AW5zapcpC55pJAGx9Wz4pt2m3nfgo=; b=i269L79flMP/U8fCFv8NOiqZORlPBB9wb+6UehGaQyyDgZBDxAhLy5a23YvaoVIHXu El31ifkL5P7l7q4KgcSXYkXEj7J90TUHDdJ7VnMS88O+HI2d3fgaZl9IKEYoGyhtGSg/ x5JvagleZgMkLJmL3t51vkd9LIzFnYrxFTnJUDrDGrCl8H8eM12R+6eVB0V9F07MPyQ1 InUAf1BQw9O9qWOiUe0/BJjXVQFZLBCNbfdjVyIU8IO4NNQ1ViwyrU3FWHbKheOf2Jip sHg6LbA4+qDroWOmHg2Tlcx+VRtOJ7i6IZx1l4a+oXQ0zHuEo9wuofOokE5poYSCOphh JNkA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.43.165 with SMTP id x5mr16349404igl.17.1413794136973; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:35:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:35:36 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0sqdS0kZhw2ufHoxTYtF-et9Jdg Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122aee051e8a10505d6995a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/KuOldjMUpORlMYcTEr9J_AwmIZ0 Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:35:39 -0000 --089e0122aee051e8a10505d6995a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into 20 bits the key also wouldn't need to be much longer ... no ? Best, R. On Oct 20, 2014 10:15 AM, "IJsbrand Wijnands" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > I wonder why did you choose to do that as opposed to define a "well > > known" label value which would punt the packets to BIER switching path > > ? > > I answered that in the last email: > > ... > Having this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups > and makes the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which > also allows us to modify and add new values without the need to change th= e > data-plane. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we woul= d > be nuts if we through that out. > ... > > > > > Is this for MVPN reasons so upon arrival packets will end up already > > in different contexts ? If so do you plan to carry now in IGP as much > > BIER MPLS labels as number of PEs * number of BIER enabled VPNs on > > each PE ? > > No. > > > > >> But you have to advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and > >> potential MT-ID through the network as well, attaching a Label value t= o > >> that update is not a big deal. > > > > Well that is an option. > > > > Alternative would be to leave the IGP (or in general routing) alone > > and only say via I2RS distribute BIER info as an pure overlay to both > > - edges and participating P nodes. > > The BFR-id needs to be known on all IGP routers in the network, this is > not an overlay function. > > > > > > >> If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an > independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some reserv= ed > label for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwate= r. > We are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, > BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that Tony is working > on). Having this indirection is very useful because it saves us many > lookups and makes the forwarding plane independent of any of these values= , > which also allows us to modify and add new values without the need to > change the data-plane. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table > and we would be nuts if we through that out. > > > > > > Why I would love to let's not argue about MPLS or no MPLS this time. > > You need some demux field. Such demux can be GRE key or MPLS label or > > LISP Instance ID .. that does not matter that much. All of your > > ingredients as well as new ones can be converted into such value and > > used in a *single* lookup. > > Yes, its just that your =E2=80=98key=E2=80=99 becomes very long. We can o= f course > re-invent the same functionality and call it something different... > > > How about those which do not and are not going to ? Think about l3vpn > > for end systems draft (or soon RFC) to start with .... Do you really > > want to limit BIER so narror to think about only few vendors core > > boxes ? > > I see no problem in defining a new encapsulation for BIER in non-MPLS > networks. I don=E2=80=99t see what the value is in a generic encapsulatio= n where we > throw away benefits we get through MPLS. Yes, we can re-invent those > benefits back into it, but what have we gained. Just more complexity. > > > > What seems however much more important here is amount of state you are > > going to add to plain IGP to accommodate your current or TonyP's > > future ideas ... yes IGP is already polluted to some extend, but I > > think we have now learned a bit more from past mistakes and at least > > some folks are shifting applications to where they belong .. ie > > overlay layer. > > I=E2=80=99m all for overlay in this context. > > Thx, > > Ice. > > --089e0122aee051e8a10505d6995a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the dem= ux into 20 bits the key also wouldn't need to be=C2=A0 much longer ... = no ?

Best,
R.

On Oct 20, 2014 10:15 AM, "IJsbrand Wijnand= s" <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

> I wonder why did you choose to do that as opposed to define a "we= ll
> known" label value which would punt the packets to BIER switching= path
> ?

I answered that in the last email:

...
Having this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups and= makes the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which also = allows us to modify and add new values without the need to change the data-= plane. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we would be nu= ts if we through that out.
...

>
> Is this for MVPN reasons so upon arrival packets will end up already > in different contexts ? If so do you plan to carry now in IGP as much<= br> > BIER MPLS labels as number of PEs * number of BIER enabled VPNs on
> each PE ?

No.

>
>> But you have to advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length = and
>> potential MT-ID through the network as well, attaching a Label val= ue to
>> that update is not a big deal.
>
> Well that is an option.
>
> Alternative would be to leave the IGP (or in general routing) alone > and only say via I2RS distribute BIER info as an pure overlay to both<= br> > - edges and participating P nodes.

The BFR-id needs to be known on all IGP routers in the network, this is not= an overlay function.

>
>
>> If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with a= n independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some reserv= ed label for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwat= er. We are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, = BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that Tony is working on= ). Having this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups = and makes the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which al= so allows us to modify and add new values without the need to change the da= ta-plane. This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we would be= nuts if we through that out.
>
>
> Why I would love to let's not argue about MPLS or no MPLS this tim= e.
> You need some demux field. Such demux can be GRE key or MPLS label or<= br> > LISP Instance ID .. that does not matter that much. All of your
> ingredients as well as new ones can be converted into such value and > used in a *single* lookup.

Yes, its just that your =E2=80=98key=E2=80=99 becomes very long. We can of = course re-invent the same functionality and call it something different...<= br>
> How about those which do not and are not going to ? Think about l3vpn<= br> > for end systems draft (or soon RFC) to start with .... Do you really > want to limit BIER so narror to think about only few vendors core
> boxes ?

I see no problem in defining a new encapsulation for BIER in non-MPLS netwo= rks. I don=E2=80=99t see what the value is in a generic encapsulation where= we throw away benefits we get through MPLS. Yes, we can re-invent those be= nefits back into it, but what have we gained. Just more complexity.


> What seems however much more important here is amount of state you are=
> going to add to plain IGP to accommodate your current or TonyP's > future ideas ... yes IGP is already polluted to some extend, but I
> think we have now learned a bit more from past mistakes and at least > some folks are shifting applications to where they belong .. ie
> overlay layer.

I=E2=80=99m all for overlay in this context.

Thx,

Ice.

--089e0122aee051e8a10505d6995a-- From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:45:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E581A6FEE for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pQv4Syh8Fqa for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0785E1A6FEF for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:45:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=279; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413794742; x=1415004342; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=etDScomnMtB1bNA31EnD/u3gKRAJEc9xt6aVGEGAT8s=; b=Ip6SyQzgEEXP4NG8qi4dTFDWvgC4KWufB41DkihJXdn3HOlJyDX2T/AW WWYFy4C0kC6ZEATU4uN7lWn1KsVnzXCd82eYRdk5d3tzn1N9wZRcf2f5p yTLg0NtSStF0/0179eIX1u6wunnjuADvehnTb8VLpfr7mazgn7Jt7is/m w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlcKACDLRFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABckhSrLgEBAQEBAQUBc5lcAoEkAX2EAwEBAwE6PwULC0ZXBi6IHAjBYwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGI4l7MweDLYEeAQSdWZYig3k7gnoBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,754,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="213124670" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 08:45:40 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9K8jdeM007396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:45:40 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:45:38 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/y_UMSbQKQfWSa14uvHj1VTiDXv4 Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:45:43 -0000 Robert, > Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into 20 = bits the key also wouldn't need to be much longer ... no ? Great, lets architect a solution that looks, feels and smells like MPLS, = and call it something different :-) Thx, Ice. From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:46:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79FF1A6FF0 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:46:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Mq76-18zlYM for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpswa-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 837C61A6FEF for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.64]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 39281A847DA77; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:46:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.36]) by us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s9K8kMPo029922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 04:46:48 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHHUB02.zap.alcatel-lucent.com (135.253.2.47) by US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 04:46:05 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHMBA03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.2]) by SG70XWXCHHUB02.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.253.2.47]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:45:34 +0800 From: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Xuxiaohu Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DC2tMbCStKuvUy1OIi1njKLoJw4p/Fw Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:45:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.253.19.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/bkNx7JZKG7GW1MkwbEoUD1PUXac Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:46:52 -0000 Hi Ice, It's all understood that "MT-ID, set id and Bit String" needs to be repres= ented in the data plane as a single variable.. And you had chosen to use MP= LS label... But, except for the hardware performance (which is not a problem at all wi= th today's ASICs or FPGAs), what are the benefits this approach of maintain= ing different encapsulation for different scenarios brings to the table? Why would you recommend adopting a different encapsulation for a different= operating environment? =20 I believe this has been discussed earlier in the list but we haven't gone = beyond discussing about HW performance yet...=20 =09 Regards Somasundaram -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IJsbrand Wijnands Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10 PM To: Xuxiaohu Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Hi Xiaohu, + bier@ietf.org >> I've already answered that on the bier list. Moreover, how much of=20 >> MPLS remains with BIER? Its really an encapsulation indirection that=20 >> allows us to do really useful stuff. If we decide to remove that=20 >> indirection, we just have to replace some of the fields we get for=20 >> free in MPLS in a new encoding. This is no >=20 > There is no free lunch. When using the MPLS-BIER label as an=20 > indirection layer, you would have to introduce an additional mechanism=20 > for MPLS-BIER label distribution which is otherwise not required in=20 > the case where a transport- True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. But you have to adverti= se your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and potential MT-ID through the = network as well, attaching a Label value to that update is not a big deal. > independent BIER header is used. Furthermore, when this technology is app= lied to the data center networks, the usage of MPLS labels is not much popu= lar. If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an indepen= dent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some reserved label = for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with the bathwater. We ar= e using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitString= Length} (and potentially some other value that Tony is working on). Having= this indirection is very useful because it saves us many lookups and makes= the forwarding plane independent of any of these values, which also allows= us to modify and add new values without the need to change the data-plane.= This is an advantage that MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts if = we through that out. If datacenter like to use BIER (and don't want MPLS), we can just define an= encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the encapsulation= generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as how its implemented = in the router should be generic such that it can be re-used, it does not me= an the encapsulation that the BIER BitString comes in has to be generic. If= you want a beer, do you care if it comes in a can or a bottle? :-) Thx, Ice. >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 >> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer=20 >> comes in the mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that=20 >> comes via MPLS, ethernet, or something else, does not matter. >>=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >=20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 01:54:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F03C1A6FFA for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVHuD2oMQO8A for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3618A1A6FF5 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 01:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKS63405; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:54:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:53:00 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:52:53 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgACG00A= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:52:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/n9i3E_tcTDQ97Jo3GvrGPwT6YxY Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:54:08 -0000 --_002_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ice, Please see the attached about the comparison between the BIER header and th= e IPv6 header. IMHO, the BIER layer is almost a totally-new network layer a= nd therefore the corresponding header format is much similar with the IPv6 = header. Best regards, Xiaohu > -----Original Message----- > From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:46 PM > To: Robert Raszuk > Cc: bier@ietf.org; Xuxiaohu > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > Robert, >=20 > > Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into 20 = bits > the key also wouldn't need to be much longer ... no ? >=20 > Great, lets architect a solution that looks, feels and smells like MPLS, = and call it > something different :-) >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. --_002_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="BIER header vs IPv6 header.JPG" Content-Description: BIER header vs IPv6 header.JPG Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BIER header vs IPv6 header.JPG"; size=57430; creation-date="Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:07:41 GMT"; modification-date="Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:07:42 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/4RDmRXhpZgAATU0AKgAAAAgABAE7AAIAAAAJAAAISodpAAQA AAABAAAIVJydAAEAAAASAAAQzOocAAcAAAgMAAAAPgAAAAAc6gAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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RQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFF ABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUA FFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH//2Q== --_002_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Mon Oct 20 02:09:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BF71A7003 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5zLp3my1HcTK for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22f.google.com (mail-ie0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55C881A1A25 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f175.google.com with SMTP id x19so4157498ier.6 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=TFLoBdvsaYPbmZP+o4cjc7Atx7O5NG323nDh2P0ixNg=; b=OXZKYdDrIdIfQ/QvRohBEkdHfrd0v/fFFpXa61x0272/6IGnEx3/6OFX6PIHxh6BzX DVKANXZ0ZbnhS5wA6IfGXbpILtYvBko0tw50pnKkkpADsrDiDI1r+kOuR7FFxWX601Gp aAySf3DihmMeOywkHgsQN0SBSaerlvq46nNTRLE1CbCrYGdySmGDVFfnEQtd5XKKQwV0 aJ6E6yBxtUPdZxIqzlWzxXImKNlrYt/s1vTs4hUHBA8DPFIo+mClEkimMnN/SKn9MlCU nvqLqhMLyib5eK3pZ4ZegplumYaW4qmV1e5hhxnTjXk0GzYEeEPFs5jEM0q/4InhtIWd 64JA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.78.16 with SMTP id zk16mr1161321icb.55.1413796142704; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 02:09:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:09:02 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5uD7pagDEoIOzuHCT63rYFAxObM Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffba3dfdef0420505d71011 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/3ssSmeugzcylYkDAjKj45MutBq0 Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:09:04 -0000 --e89a8ffba3dfdef0420505d71011 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hey Ice, Glad we are progressing :) I have even better idea ... let's ignore reality of GRE and VXLAN being already supported in millions of linux hosts acting as PEs and start campagne of new MPLS stack and IGP obviously to all of them only because few equipment vendors have boxes with mpls deployed here and there ... Cheers, R. On Oct 20, 2014 10:45 AM, "IJsbrand Wijnands" wrote: > Robert, > > > Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into 20 > bits the key also wouldn't need to be much longer ... no ? > > Great, lets architect a solution that looks, feels and smells like MPLS, > and call it something different :-) > > Thx, > > Ice. > > --e89a8ffba3dfdef0420505d71011 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Ice,

Glad we are progressing :)

I have even better idea ... let's ignore reality of GRE= and VXLAN being already supported in millions of linux hosts acting as PEs= and start campagne of new MPLS stack and IGP obviously to all of them only= because few equipment vendors have boxes with mpls deployed here and there= ...

Cheers,
R.

On Oct 20, 2014 10:45 AM, "IJsbrand Wijnand= s" <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Robert,

> Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into 20= bits the key also wouldn't need to be=C2=A0 much longer ... no ?

Great, lets architect a solution that looks, feels and smells like MPLS, an= d call it something different :-)

Thx,

Ice.

--e89a8ffba3dfdef0420505d71011-- From nobody Mon Oct 20 05:25:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1F01A86F4 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:25:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hprnV3trA4pk for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0B891A86DD for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:24:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4248; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413807899; x=1415017499; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=VCBKopujp1tbk8XHrp1bkCC9yv/3AyZDQYnjyKehz10=; b=AaNcEYEp60LBjyHSdLPCTev5epyxoCVQExsRUyJJ/A1b0I0eEsOiNilb uHlFbu6t18tTN62SfLaNfbwsGXHY8zMUXNL2VTY3MvSw2DNWnwW9c9jbp kD76ubA3KqXzgWw8QeeE8fsQU4EntvD4EmV7st8J2ijJsX0z3/lrM0zTC c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkUKAL/9RFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg2G5dAEBAQEBAQUBc5IFCodNAoEnAX2EAgEBAQMBAQEBawsFBwQLEQQBASgHJx8JCAYTiDcIDcMjAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEwSGI4l7MwcGgyeBHgEEnVmBMI1WgxuEAYN5Oy+CSwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,756,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="213317022" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 12:24:57 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9KCOs2X008816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:24:55 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:24:53 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Jjx6gEcCzydYEx_jhrgB1TGutUQ Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:25:01 -0000 Hi Somasundaram, > It's all understood that "MT-ID, set id and Bit String" needs to = be represented in the data plane as a single variable.. And you had = chosen to use MPLS label... > But, except for the hardware performance (which is not a problem = at all with today's ASICs or FPGAs), what That=92s assuming there are ASIC=92s to do this, and, that is still no = good reason to waste the resources while its not necessary. > are the benefits this approach of maintaining different = encapsulation for different scenarios brings to the table? Each encapsulation, MPLS, Ethernet, IPv6 Extension header, GRE, Vxlan, = (and there are many more), have their own characteristics. I don=92t = think this is the moment to settle on a generic encapsulation throwing = away advantages that each encapsulation has. > Why would you recommend adopting a different encapsulation for a = different operating environment? Because you=92ll settle on the lowest common denominator. If that = happens to be the same, then fine. Thx, Ice. >=20 > I believe this has been discussed earlier in the list but we = haven't gone beyond discussing about HW performance yet...=20 >=20 > =09 > Regards > Somasundaram >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IJsbrand = Wijnands > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10 PM > To: Xuxiaohu > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > Hi Xiaohu, >=20 > + bier@ietf.org >=20 >>> I've already answered that on the bier list. Moreover, how much of=20= >>> MPLS remains with BIER? Its really an encapsulation indirection that=20= >>> allows us to do really useful stuff. If we decide to remove that=20 >>> indirection, we just have to replace some of the fields we get for=20= >>> free in MPLS in a new encoding. This is no >>=20 >> There is no free lunch. When using the MPLS-BIER label as an=20 >> indirection layer, you would have to introduce an additional = mechanism=20 >> for MPLS-BIER label distribution which is otherwise not required in=20= >> the case where a transport- >=20 > True, you have to advertise labels through the IGP. But you have to = advertise your BFR-id, supported BitString Length and potential MT-ID = through the network as well, attaching a Label value to that update is = not a big deal. >=20 >> independent BIER header is used. Furthermore, when this technology is = applied to the data center networks, the usage of MPLS labels is not = much popular. >=20 > If you say there is no need to distribute labels when going with an = independent BIER header, that would mean you have to allocate some = reserved label for BIER. If we do that, we through away the baby with = the bathwater. We are using the BIER MPLS label as an indirection for = {MT-ID, Set-ID, BitString Length} (and potentially some other value that = Tony is working on). Having this indirection is very useful because it = saves us many lookups and makes the forwarding plane independent of any = of these values, which also allows us to modify and add new values = without the need to change the data-plane. This is an advantage that = MPLS bring to the table and we would be nuts if we through that out. >=20 > If datacenter like to use BIER (and don't want MPLS), we can just = define an encapsulation for datacenter. There is no reason to make the = encapsulation generic for that reason. The BIER forwarding layer as how = its implemented in the router should be generic such that it can be = re-used, it does not mean the encapsulation that the BIER BitString = comes in has to be generic. If you want a beer, do you care if it comes = in a can or a bottle? :-) >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 >>=20 >> Best regards, >> Xiaohu >>=20 >>> rocket science. The true value of a shared BIER forwarding layer=20 >>> comes in the mechanism how you process the BitString, whether that=20= >>> comes via MPLS, ethernet, or something else, does not matter. >>>=20 >>> Thx, >>>=20 >>> Ice. >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 05:35:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3071A86F8 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqK25j0yWo7q for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E925F1A8546 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:35:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1242; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413808522; x=1415018122; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=/lJM6yWvKhMHAXnQQd0rDVaDgLZkkT7GPHYYl075jfI=; b=QlLqlTk8J66+AunXQps7YpH+868++jhxYFNeibn9sD0DEwww1jxSgZ5i EMPtJlS2NTlonUpg1KOPxOHjg4SoorqKP5tGYonfA/OP8RhzAfOuVBxT4 K63ufJw/+G9mAVgfeVWSsdrBe7Rb+8IIecCzqOz9KYJvVSVyLAXo0wl6T 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AikQAEgBRVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcvVUBAQEBAQEFAXOZWAICAoEnAX2EAgEBAQMBeQUHBAsRBAEBKAdGCQgGExuIHAjDQQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGI4QwhUszBwaDJ4EeAQSdWYEwg0aRLIN5Oy+CSwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,756,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="213358367" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 12:35:20 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9KCZIPa008615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:35:19 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:35:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D677CE8-221B-46D6-BA2F-5976B9AAFBA2@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/SeCojx5EIfVDhHOCVb9h8Y1ftkM Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:35:23 -0000 Hi Xiaohu, I don=92t see how a IPv6 header is similar to a BIER header, but I agree = the BIER header is a new layer. I would say BIER is more like MPLS. = Meaning, a sub-header between L2 and L3 that determines the = =91intermediate=92 end destination(s). Thx, Ice. On 20 Oct 2014, at 10:52, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Hi Ice, >=20 > Please see the attached about the comparison between the BIER header = and the IPv6 header. IMHO, the BIER layer is almost a totally-new = network layer and therefore the corresponding header format is much = similar with the IPv6 header. >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:46 PM >> To: Robert Raszuk >> Cc: bier@ietf.org; Xuxiaohu >> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >>=20 >> Robert, >>=20 >>> Why would such key become very long ? If you can fit the demux into = 20 bits >> the key also wouldn't need to be much longer ... no ? >>=20 >> Great, lets architect a solution that looks, feels and smells like = MPLS, and call it >> something different :-) >>=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >=20 > From nobody Mon Oct 20 05:49:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F1A1A8727 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:49:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOuP2anl6GpL for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB3CB1A872A for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:49:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=959; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413809394; x=1415018994; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=e7i/55kBNKkEXKprwgDT9ZrdHXPtgfkqa9gn94koLPU=; b=JefvIwt9y85SMRn177NOXEW+dH1lW6PUmCyLvoNk5iE5gua4eZM2sQE9 5cB7RMFijB/KRWnLK4t2LaJcgx++U/vf6duR4gY/KrHuOGHWbFVhLGo7C Qp+++WghzwqWK4Z6t/8vweiEu3R3wr4Qq1qtXs7VziKJNmT6IJvLbRTuD A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0KAJoDRVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcvVUBAQEBAQEFAXOZXAKBJwF9hAMBAQMBeQULC0ZXBohKCMNcAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4YjiXszB4MtgR4BBJ1ZliKDeTuCegEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,756,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="217450437" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 12:49:52 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9KCnnB7028498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:49:50 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:49:48 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/C3tAoucMi2Zz9oAanHj4VMAJXj0 Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:49:54 -0000 Robert, > Glad we are progressing :) >=20 > I have even better idea ... let's ignore reality of GRE and VXLAN = being already supported in millions of linux hosts acting as PEs and = start campagne of new MPLS stack and IGP obviously to all of them only = because few equipment vendors have boxes with mpls deployed here and = there =85 And I=92ll be the first one to be very happy to see the BIER technology = spread into multiple area=92s. And to me it does not have to be MPLS at = all if that is not the right way to do it in those area=92s. My point = is, if you want to use MPLS, don=92t throw out MPLS advantages by going = to a generic encapsulation, while its not even sure if/how its going to = apply to other area=92s.=20 Lets look at real use-cases in other area=92s and see how BIER applies = and then determine how to encapsulate it, instead of assuming its = applicability. Can you help in doing that?=20 Thx, Ice. From nobody Mon Oct 20 06:42:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294AF1A873B for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:42:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zn8xbRDRUiuG for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B761E1A873C for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.33.55] (66.129.241.14) by BN3PR0501MB1092.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1054.13; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:40:26 +0000 Message-ID: <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:40:17 -0400 From: Eric Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: BY2PR03CA058.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.249.31) To BN3PR0501MB1092.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.139) X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Forefront-PRVS: 03706074BC X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(199003)(189002)(23746002)(36756003)(122386002)(80316001)(93886004)(85306004)(59896002)(85852003)(46102003)(80022003)(87976001)(31966008)(95666004)(76482002)(120916001)(92726001)(92566001)(86362001)(54356999)(87266999)(50986999)(76176999)(97736003)(65816999)(77096002)(50466002)(102836001)(66066001)(33656002)(99396003)(42186005)(21056001)(64706001)(107046002)(40100003)(105586002)(4396001)(20776003)(47776003)(106356001)(101416001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; H:[172.29.33.55]; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/qN8CSXbFfkYbEMiOs8LcDY9xblo Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org, erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:42:06 -0000 However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup key that then gives you the context. 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane header. If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already incompatible with existing DC routers. For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as this is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific control info. From nobody Mon Oct 20 06:42:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147791A8733 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFQ3g65JNuLI for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 013C71A8770 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id rl12so4574343iec.23 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:40:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mHNvj4OQV/TJPFwRyl0bc59ktljGwUA+SiPzHT1oAm0=; b=e41zxM5djhslo8A3yhDVqA+RTHTERzLTl0ku2oQdprRRzbWouENtttt1Z+j70dTAq8 7vD9YV7TUQvZrivTpTDUcaQ9a7c0ZwwCDKLShJNwUSP428P3uq1fdeH+DPwkThrc1Jkh CoJ0yjObwu5xNvPA15X0Hd+tWtfOAgpL2bvi6Is5luSddSlIUlyn3WHrToAd5XunCUPN Rg0bOJRPLOlgZiHBwxna4UQvVFqV2zdxunzrJh+CxBmWnq5V2I6teuKVj6XkRtH7182y lGeYP5yBVFznp2blVab73iOgmsodrTHb2z49xILnJHQRr/TIMy//+dg8lmHdcxPLE+4R +M1g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.160.200 with SMTP id j191mr2822586ioe.75.1413812433894; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:40:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:40:33 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PEpaoerSUUav_3sf_tgRSfSJ_8g Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1s9gQSaVR7bLkQR7hbTyRgasmy8 Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:42:08 -0000 Hi Ice, Your explanation would perhaps hold if you assume completely isolated environments. However these days hosts talk to routers and vice versa. Hence if you do two different data plane encapsulations you are stuck into building expensive gateways which will have to convert paradigms. Knowing apriori (based on our past mistakes) that this is coming why would you not avoid it in the first place ? Thx, r. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:49 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Robert, > >> Glad we are progressing :) >> >> I have even better idea ... let's ignore reality of GRE and VXLAN being = already supported in millions of linux hosts acting as PEs and start campag= ne of new MPLS stack and IGP obviously to all of them only because few equi= pment vendors have boxes with mpls deployed here and there =E2=80=A6 > > And I=E2=80=99ll be the first one to be very happy to see the BIER techno= logy spread into multiple area=E2=80=99s. And to me it does not have to be = MPLS at all if that is not the right way to do it in those area=E2=80=99s. = My point is, if you want to use MPLS, don=E2=80=99t throw out MPLS advantag= es by going to a generic encapsulation, while its not even sure if/how its = going to apply to other area=E2=80=99s. > > Lets look at real use-cases in other area=E2=80=99s and see how BIER appl= ies and then determine how to encapsulate it, instead of assuming its appli= cability. Can you help in doing that? > > Thx, > > Ice. > From nobody Mon Oct 20 06:46:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422581A8711 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FFoRu4D6Mi3 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504991A872D for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id rd18so4670456iec.36 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NHwKojAQd/6GUad9VZaepUlFqQH3pcLnWIl+pkqNZxI=; b=LgkK4WJvuqvfPSLPU25M6s5H/8pGFiuCmdl37UtNYMA8/wDLwkB4Rp999o02uGIF9D ZPXXQP3uIRY9YUJvqNmdLc4t1I5EsYh+LBQhzPDTZnc2yxG6v5ArepeC3wNpjGkMNDMq geguOeAyHBYRlTQdotFSpb4R9UuwmPyIvAlu5C/018aWVyD5EEyZSUd3N/ErcqltRDLn K1r3yB5rlUsEmWAEhbTm/bl88rhoiMU+8GcX9O5l7sfl/C6uODJa7wsYB22x+GVXVkew T89R/CVjYMr4R2MkmKNGdGG3J+eRRoTzLPtLiL/lW9QCVgkntgtF6p6oRKlXr5EwVJCs ioHw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.8.1 with SMTP id n1mr18641503iga.9.1413812763780; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:46:03 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Z2SAhQoZcLIH8xehZERqwBiMUAQ Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: Eric Rosen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/4wxR8FQi1K5H-vPGcgSvIxVqje0 Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:46:23 -0000 Hi Eric, > As has been pointed out, there is no MPLS-specific signaling > needed to distributed the label values, as this is done via the > same IGP extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific > control info. How about data centers which do not run IGP ? Should they forget about BIER ? Also how many BIER MPLS labels do you envision will be advertised by each L3VPN PE into IGP ? Thx, R. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Eric Rosen wrote: > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a lookup > key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT context in which > the packet's BitString is to be processed. > > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that already > appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the lookup key has > to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see a couple of > advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in which > the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of concatenating > various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup key that then > gives you the context. > > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't depend > upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we decide someday > that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from certain "special" > subscribers. We could do this just by making the appropriate modifications > in the control plane; we wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a > "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to > change the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very > similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an > ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where > that assignment is based on information that does not appear explicitly in > the data plane header. > > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one doesn't > want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one also doesn't > want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to introduce a BIER > forwarding plane into those environments, one could also introduce an MPLS > forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already incompatible with existing DC > routers. > > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can just > say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename it to be > the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to resemble the MPLS > label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no MPLS-specific signaling > needed to distributed the label values, as this is done via the same IGP > extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific control info. > > > > > > > From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:24:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DAD1A02BE for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLlEWemYw3ZL for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpswa-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4509C1A8828 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 4FFA9B5C0617F; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:15:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s9KFFY3k025782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:15:34 -0400 Received: from SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com (135.253.2.38) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:15:34 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHMBA03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.2]) by SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.253.2.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:15:30 +0800 From: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" To: Eric Rosen , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DC2tMbCStKuvUy1OIi1njKLoJw4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgACKKGA= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:15:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.253.19.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/wtrmh-yP4ZAGRetbw-SyZAJG4-Q Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:24:50 -0000 Hi Eric, Thanks for your views.... But, MPLS header is actually followed by BIER he= ader which means that every BIR neighbor (or every router in the BIER domai= n) will have to process the BIER header.. The forwarding logic to perform b= ased on the BIER header is defined in "draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-00"= ... The MPLS label only identifies the BIR here. So despite being MPLS enca= psulated, "Bit string, set id and MT-ID" are used for replication. =09 Regards Somasundaram -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:10 PM To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a lookup = key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT context in whic= h the packet's BitString is to be processed. With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that already = appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the lookup key has = to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see a couple of advant= ages in using the MPLS encapsulation: 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in whic= h the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of concatenating= various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup key that then gi= ves you the context. 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER heade= r, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't depend upon = the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we decide someday that = we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from certain "special" subscrib= ers. We could do this just by making the appropriate modifications in the = control plane; we wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a "subsc= riber id", and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to chang= e the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very similar = to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress n= ode can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that ass= ignment is based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data= plane header. If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems logic= al to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one doesn't= want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one also doesn't = want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to introduce a BIER = forwarding plane into those environments, one could also introduce an MPLS = forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already incompatible with existing DC= routers. For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can just= say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename it to be= the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to=20 resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no=20 MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as this is = done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific cont= rol info. _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:25:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925681A008D for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:25:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7tSEUNSBd5JK for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.111]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3219A1A0123 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CY1PR0501MB1098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.144.140) by CY1PR0501MB1611.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.161.162.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1054.13; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:16:58 +0000 Received: from [172.29.33.55] (66.129.241.14) by CY1PR0501MB1098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.144.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1054.13; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:16:56 +0000 Message-ID: <54452760.5070507@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:16:48 -0400 From: Eric Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Raszuk References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: BY1PR0201CA0031.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (25.160.191.169) To CY1PR0501MB1098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.144.140) X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;UriScan:; X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Forefront-PRVS: 03706074BC X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6049001)(6009001)(199003)(51704005)(24454002)(189002)(377454003)(479174003)(21056001)(50986999)(19580405001)(87266999)(19580395003)(85852003)(59896002)(87976001)(93886004)(85306004)(76176999)(54356999)(122386002)(40100003)(36756003)(117636001)(120916001)(97736003)(101416001)(23676002)(46102003)(99396003)(80022003)(102836001)(92566001)(76482002)(86362001)(92726001)(66066001)(106356001)(105586002)(95666004)(4396001)(42186005)(64706001)(31966008)(20776003)(47776003)(65816999)(50466002)(110136001)(77096002)(107046002)(62816006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; H:[172.29.33.55]; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1611; X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/KvqyUfWkDrcz6ADZW28dH6krX_w Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:25:14 -0000 Robert> How about data centers which do not run IGP ? Should they forget about BIER ? Whatever technique is used to set up the BIER control information can be used to set up the labels as well. Robert> how many BIER MPLS labels do you envision will be advertised by each L3VPN PE I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. The labels in question are not specific to the application. On 10/20/2014 9:46 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Eric, > >> As has been pointed out, there is no MPLS-specific signaling >> needed to distributed the label values, as this is done via the >> same IGP extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific >> control info. > How about data centers which do not run IGP ? Should they forget > about BIER ? > > Also how many BIER MPLS labels do you envision will be advertised by > each L3VPN PE into IGP ? > > Thx, > R. > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Eric Rosen wrote: >> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a lookup >> key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT context in which >> the packet's BitString is to be processed. >> >> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that already >> appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the lookup key has >> to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see a couple of >> advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >> >> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in which >> the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of concatenating >> various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup key that then >> gives you the context. >> >> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER >> header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't depend >> upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we decide someday >> that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from certain "special" >> subscribers. We could do this just by making the appropriate modifications >> in the control plane; we wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a >> "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to >> change the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very >> similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an >> ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where >> that assignment is based on information that does not appear explicitly in >> the data plane header. >> >> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems >> logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >> >> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one doesn't >> want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one also doesn't >> want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to introduce a BIER >> forwarding plane into those environments, one could also introduce an MPLS >> forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already incompatible with existing DC >> routers. >> >> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can just >> say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename it to be >> the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to resemble the MPLS >> label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no MPLS-specific signaling >> needed to distributed the label values, as this is done via the same IGP >> extensions used to distributed the BIER-specific control info. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:28:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26B81A1ADA for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4lNACJIgskf for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1219A1A1BB1 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f173.google.com with SMTP id h18so5505458igc.12 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:20:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RI25obcN9iGhFvzGwIzDU9Z3k+Il4rCCwMoQ9PLhkJ8=; b=wUstDh5OmPaQTG6TSUZIPVdVjsNkKxjVftcIQjMiflXTWULhW1PbqC7gAqsvjLtbnc R/tNyzViuf2weON0bYMVMwirVBmHkWAt0hz5ZAvlQqAwFnd/ApUNpD2Z/Dj04ZPsIILc 02TFxRTyotwZLiE54bWXWH/S9ZvpHe5l4FlBAnKM3eB9a83EHxrNcneL1SmTu9Lf33q5 4GSAEGpW7kLWYIfyFX4fpuU8UoHzNaQ48tGMeSDvsv2moxx9JqcQvcZPs7p7UCA8btTM gZ+F11ZuYfe2AzafY1q70HNB3a/cSqhLiaIYcyTxVU7MPFp8avcJX2BcZZvZlJZwGDhR x0gw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.105.143 with SMTP id v15mr2546275ico.90.1413818446546; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:20:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <54452760.5070507@juniper.net> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <54452760.5070507@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:20:46 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: XZrQztrWQAoLIpmS7fGfCc0aigU Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: Eric Rosen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/8qtrw76Gs-cHTQHhefXQLewVFK4 Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:28:20 -0000 > Robert> How about data centers which do not run IGP ? Should they forget > about BIER ? > > Whatever technique is used to set up the BIER control information can be > used to set up the labels as well. Great. Shouldn't architecture document describe those options rather then locking on one specific one already ? > Robert> how many BIER MPLS labels do you envision will be advertised by each > L3VPN PE > > I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. The labels in question are not > specific to the application. I was under impression that for MVPN MPLS BIER label will get you to different per VPN BIER context .. if not that I really don't see the reason to have this label to be dynamically distributed. New ethertype may be a much better and much more general option. r. From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:29:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E567D1A1B6F for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHO-BiLCwndV for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.133]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDAA71A1BE4 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.33.55] (66.129.241.14) by CY1PR0501MB1097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.144.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1054.13; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: <544528B8.80305@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:22:32 -0400 From: Eric Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: DM2PR00CA0036.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (25.160.243.46) To CY1PR0501MB1097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.144.139) X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1097; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Forefront-PRVS: 03706074BC X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(377454003)(479174003)(199003)(189002)(24454002)(76176999)(65816999)(42186005)(54356999)(50986999)(92726001)(85852003)(87976001)(23746002)(47776003)(46102003)(101416001)(20776003)(80022003)(21056001)(64706001)(93886004)(65806001)(122386002)(40100003)(85306004)(92566001)(66066001)(4396001)(33656002)(102836001)(86362001)(65956001)(83506001)(31966008)(77096002)(50466002)(105586002)(99396003)(76482002)(106356001)(97736003)(95666004)(120916001)(36756003)(107046002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1097; H:[172.29.33.55]; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/dy3e3aly9Xhanf_l0BXf7Pmb5I0 Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:29:11 -0000 On 10/20/2014 11:15 AM, S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram) wrote: > The MPLS label only identifies the BIR here. I'm not sure what you mean by "BIR". Did you mean "BFR"? If so, the statement is not correct. > So despite being MPLS encapsulated, "Bit string, set id and MT-ID" are used for replication. Not following. In the MPLS encaps, set id and mt-id are not in the BIER header. From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:30:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11301A00FB for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEIr3fmuCk5H for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0109.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.109]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C20F1A039B for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.33.55] (66.129.241.14) by BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1054.13; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:25:54 +0000 Message-ID: <5445297A.8040008@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:25:46 -0400 From: Eric Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Raszuk References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <54452760.5070507@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: DM2PR00CA0038.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (25.160.243.48) To BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Forefront-PRVS: 03706074BC X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(199003)(189002)(87976001)(85852003)(23676002)(31966008)(120916001)(99396003)(42186005)(122386002)(40100003)(107046002)(95666004)(50466002)(77096002)(106356001)(105586002)(76482002)(36756003)(54356999)(102836001)(87266999)(50986999)(76176999)(33656002)(101416001)(65816999)(80022003)(46102003)(93886004)(85306004)(86362001)(110136001)(64706001)(97736003)(92726001)(20776003)(47776003)(92566001)(83506001)(4396001)(80316001)(59896002)(66066001)(65806001)(65956001)(21056001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; H:[172.29.33.55]; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/LDyDvIbybeBa1khfzmfNP06GRjg Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:30:55 -0000 > I was under impression that for MVPN MPLS BIER label will get you to different per VPN BIER context For an MVPN packet, the VRF context would be determined by the label stack that is part of the payload (i.e., that appears after the BIER header), in conjunction with the BFIR-id that is in the BIER header. The label we've been discussing in this thread is the one that appears before the BIER header. From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:39:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16081A1B85 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nulptZKKLq4E for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ECC31A1BA4 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp4.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.66]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D20BB87A9615; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:37:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.48]) by us70uusmtp4.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s9KFbvaR021603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:38:01 -0400 Received: from SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com (135.253.2.38) by US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:37:58 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHMBA03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.2]) by SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.253.2.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:37:55 +0800 From: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" To: Eric Rosen , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DC2tMbCStKuvUy1OIi1njKLoJw4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgACKKGD//5JqAIAAh9JQ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:37:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <544528B8.80305@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <544528B8.80305@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.253.19.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/mI5M7KFjx1p_I-DWHRQKtdTWIXQ Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:39:46 -0000 Yes... I was referring to BFR .. Can you clarify on why is the statement no= t correct? >>>Not following. In the MPLS encaps, set id and mt-id are not in the BIER= header. I apologize.. just got confused with the other proposal on encapsulation.. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:53 PM To: S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram); IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk Cc: erosen@juniper.net; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation On 10/20/2014 11:15 AM, S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram) wrote: > The MPLS label only identifies the BIR here. I'm not sure what you mean by "BIR". Did you mean "BFR"? If so, the state= ment is not correct. > So despite being MPLS encapsulated, "Bit string, set id and MT-ID" are us= ed for replication. Not following. In the MPLS encaps, set id and mt-id are not in the BIER he= ader. From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:40:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC411A1BB8 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NW9er_tdhvOZ for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 904A21A1ADA for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKT07443; 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Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:43:47 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Eric Rosen , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Robert Raszuk" Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCrPW6RepOE60yLzgc5eAXzk5w4nE0AgAAHbQCAAAWIAIAAAs4AgAAGiQCAAD2vAIAADhuAgAAg/nA= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:43:46 +0000 Message-ID: <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1095; x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-forefront-prvs: 03706074BC x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(13464003)(51704005)(377454003)(189002)(199003)(97736003)(108616004)(93886004)(85306004)(31966008)(105586002)(99286002)(20776003)(106116001)(74316001)(107046002)(66066001)(21056001)(106356001)(95666004)(77096002)(15975445006)(4396001)(33646002)(85852003)(122556002)(1941001)(46102003)(40100003)(76482002)(19580395003)(80022003)(120916001)(99396003)(92566001)(86362001)(54356999)(76176999)(50986999)(87936001)(2656002)(101416001)(19580405001)(64706001)(76576001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1095; H:BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/AR4eP5CPeYw2aNaKsaeIPyIuvds Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:46:01 -0000 I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER hea= der itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to indic= ate that a BIER header follows. For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that a= lso gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric = explained below. Jeffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. >=20 > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see > a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >=20 > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in > which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup > key that then gives you the context. >=20 > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we > decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from > certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the > appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have > to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is > constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility that > MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is > based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane > header. >=20 > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >=20 > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to > introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already > incompatible with existing DC routers. >=20 > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can > just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename > it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as this > is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > BIER-specific control info. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 08:59:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB8D1A1B07 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ulc_Ltn7F7H for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x231.google.com (mail-ig0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AD701A1BDA for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f177.google.com with SMTP id a13so4858128igq.10 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CWL84BHiqVFJYsAJWcQNW0ID+Bnhslm0R5ooZqp3sMw=; b=cAysIdkT8ihNNGVgGRmSSqrb8zDop8n0BBmZRWNKEVZ8I4gKNMskx4++RnQ8fRu9YN ItgzPh5rR9t9LHH2G8LOxFWCAWbOO3HcyVByIfVUT25mv3SbaMGcx5GlujziTUGNpVr8 tgZsVDVTsn/ugkfYjpfuMJK9kFZGSdzB+TvKwBUj+YfiiutioCePxqOW+SnTxLeYXYAb KprHFZoML1sTWpnXysowonj7F1J6qVmndCT11Q8RqBcnghifTt/60fvqkNfWx4eSE+3F LJeHRU9CJk24q4GD9oa6+tdFHtEc6cHZuByK0Py/pbNaYjs2RVBPrRyVdX6pmkzHQIP0 UzZA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.105.143 with SMTP id v15mr2773485ico.90.1413820669530; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:57:49 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: M0L4vb_OdjCEeNeIZPk__htMmMU Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044280a8c898a40505dcc659 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/RrLV1phqQrA9NsiVtT-rSqHQrYE Cc: Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org, IJsbrand Wijnands , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:58:59 -0000 --f46d044280a8c898a40505dcc659 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either native or its topology enhance version) ? The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. Best, R. On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" wrote: > I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER > header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to > indicate that a BIER header follows. > > For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that > also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric > explained below. > > Jeffrey > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > > > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT > > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > > > > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that > > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the > > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see > > a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > > > > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in > > which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup > > key that then gives you the context. > > > > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER > > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't > > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we > > decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from > > certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the > > appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to > > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have > > to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is > > constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility that > > MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is > > based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane > > header. > > > > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems > > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > > > > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to > > introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already > > incompatible with existing DC routers. > > > > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can > > just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename > > it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to > > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no > > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as this > > is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > > BIER-specific control info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --f46d044280a8c898a40505dcc659 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with L= FA (either native or its topology enhance version) ?

The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limite= d data plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours.

Best,
R.

On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui)= Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
I want= to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER header it= self, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to indicate th= at a BIER header follows.

For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that a= lso gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric = explained below.

Jeffrey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounc= es@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM
> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk
> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric= Rosen
> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation
>
> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT
> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed.
>
> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that
> already appears in the header.=C2=A0 In the "generic" encaps= ulation, the
> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header.=C2=A0= I see
> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation:
>
> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in=
> which the BitString is to be processed.=C2=A0 So you save the steps of=
> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the looku= p
> key that then gives you the context.
>
> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER<= br> > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn'= t
> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we
> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traf= fic from
> certain "special" subscribers.=C2=A0 We could do this just b= y making the
> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have t= o
> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wo= uldn't have
> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is=
> constructed.=C2=A0 This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility= that
> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assig= nment is
> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane=
> header.
>
> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems<= br> > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS.
>
> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but o= ne
> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR.=C2=A0 However, if one is= going to
> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 After all, BIER is alre= ady
> incompatible with existing DC routers.
>
> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can=
> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename=
> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens t= o
> resemble the MPLS label stack".=C2=A0 =C2=A0As has been pointed o= ut, there is no
> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as thi= s
> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the
> BIER-specific control info.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--f46d044280a8c898a40505dcc659-- From nobody Mon Oct 20 09:03:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1261A1BE6 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7uwqxcmukjW for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E76BE1A1BDB for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKT09334; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:01:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:00:35 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:00:30 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Eric Rosen , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAIabnw== Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:00:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C337F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net>, <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.17.53] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/PZEpW1IUqBgqbDp4z4A0M0iglnI Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:02:49 -0000 SW4gdGhlIE1QTFMgdHJhbnNwb3J0IG5ldHdvcmssIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3UgdGhhdCB3ZSBz dGlsbCBuZWVkIGEgd2F5IHRvIGluZGljYXRlIHRoZSBCSUVSIGhlYWRlciBmb2xsb3dpbmcgdGhl IE1QTFMgbGFiZWwgc3RhY2sgZXZlbiB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBNVC1JRCBhbmQgU0kgdmFsdWVzIGhh dmUgYmVlbiBlbmNvZGVkIGluIHRoZSBCSUVSIGhlYWRlci4gTm93IGl0IHNlZW1zIHRoYXQgdGhl IG9ubHkgd29yayB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGRvIGlzIGp1c3QgdG8gZmluZCBhIHdheSB0byBpbmRpY2F0 ZSB0aGUgTVBMUyBwYXlsb2FkIHR5cGUuIEluIGZhY3QsIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBtYW55IHdheXMuDQoN ClRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIGZyZWUgbHVuY2guIFRvIG9idGFpbiB0aGUgYmVuZWZpdHMsIHlvdSBoYXZl 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aXMgZG9uZSB2aWEgdGhlIHNhbWUgSUdQIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgdXNlZCB0byBkaXN0cmlidXRlZCB0 aGUNCj4gQklFUi1zcGVjaWZpYyBjb250cm9sIGluZm8uDQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+ IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEJJRVIg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iaWVy From nobody Mon Oct 20 09:28:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720A31A8AE2 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnf4ASylUAH3 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x233.google.com (mail-yh0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ED631A87F0 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f51.google.com with SMTP id t59so3460770yho.38 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:21:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6JyGgF7f6MjZYc0wr+3+xxkl+O+FfJvyrxoI93C41gk=; b=W5/j7y4iV7RT5oV1AlfAVf1Vwld9tmT3Htaq+/6VbOeRStstOAJUL1xaGNGTIohLUu CYfP8lJNlnGNCzt27IBVvISvvFO9TQXXU6KYI9l/QlYz4go/YvSDSHhq290kfrTRnYCY wCFPwxe/dP8FUd1UmvFg/d290KgEVl6UJZ5R4MNpENVd2BoYkiOM0GIR9XqRQJzTCeqT N1vM/x/jt6LcQ2NZpBzHfAZm/T5fg+nOwwrKbIpKIviNT1KvLOlbATk3jKLYE+KFmtUB 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-0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Robert Raszuk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1e9ee2a73ed0505dd1c8f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/JRHCeGoafbjGz_XpFKqvyi8q1uQ Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , bier@ietf.org, IJsbrand Wijnands , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:28:41 -0000 --001a11c1e9ee2a73ed0505dd1c8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Robert, On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either > native or its topology enhance version) ? > Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER header would have to be indicated next on the stack. > The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data plane > paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. > I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the upcoming BoF. One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base and then either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF around vxlan. Regards, Alia > Best, > R. > On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > wrote: > >> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER >> header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to >> indicate that a BIER header follows. >> >> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that >> also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric >> explained below. >> >> Jeffrey >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen >> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM >> > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk >> > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen >> > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >> > >> > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a >> > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT >> > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. >> > >> > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that >> > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the >> > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I see >> > a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >> > >> > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in >> > which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of >> > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the lookup >> > key that then gives you the context. >> > >> > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER >> > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't >> > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we >> > decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from >> > certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the >> > appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to >> > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't have >> > to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is >> > constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility that >> > MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a >> > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is >> > based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane >> > header. >> > >> > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems >> > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >> > >> > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one >> > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one >> > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to >> > introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could >> > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already >> > incompatible with existing DC routers. >> > >> > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can >> > just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename >> > it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to >> > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no >> > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as this >> > is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the >> > BIER-specific control info. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > BIER mailing list >> > BIER@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a11c1e9ee2a73ed0505dd1c8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robe= rt,

On= Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

And what is t= he advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either native or its top= ology enhance version) ?

Regardless of how the alterna= te is computed, there can still be an MPLS label indicating the merge-point= ; then the existence of a BIER header would have to be indicated next on th= e stack.=C2=A0

The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limite= d data plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours.

I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments.=C2=A0 Un= derstanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the upco= ming BoF.

One clear use-case that maps to a highly= deployed case is MPLS for MVPN.=C2=A0 Certainly, that seems to be a good m= otivator.

I can certainly see BIER being useful in= the DC case - as I pointed out to the NVO3 chairs.=C2=A0 However, I don= 9;t see a need to create another full overlay encapsulation (complete with = TTL, QoS, etc.).=C2=A0 One question with BIER is whether it is viewed like = a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or such?=C2=A0 I do think there= could be a common base and then either an optional first word or two, depe= nding.=C2=A0 Taking a look at what type of extension/encapsulation would ma= ke sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are also some change cont= rol issues for the IETF around vxlan.
=C2=A0
Regards,
Alia

Best,
R.

On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui)= Zhang" <zz= hang@juniper.net> wrote:
I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded i= n the BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another = label to indicate that a BIER header follows.

For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that a= lso gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric = explained below.

Jeffrey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM
> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk
> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@= ietf.org; Eric Rosen
> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation
>
> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT
> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed.
>
> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that
> already appears in the header.=C2=A0 In the "generic" encaps= ulation, the
> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header.=C2=A0= I see
> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation:
>
> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in=
> which the BitString is to be processed.=C2=A0 So you save the steps of=
> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the looku= p
> key that then gives you the context.
>
> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER<= br> > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn'= t
> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we
> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traf= fic from
> certain "special" subscribers.=C2=A0 We could do this just b= y making the
> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have t= o
> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wo= uldn't have
> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is=
> constructed.=C2=A0 This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility= that
> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assig= nment is
> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane=
> header.
>
> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems<= br> > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS.
>
> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but o= ne
> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR.=C2=A0 However, if one is= going to
> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 After all, BIER is alre= ady
> incompatible with existing DC routers.
>
> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can=
> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename=
> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens t= o
> resemble the MPLS label stack".=C2=A0 =C2=A0As has been pointed o= ut, there is no
> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as thi= s
> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the
> BIER-specific control info.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--001a11c1e9ee2a73ed0505dd1c8f-- From nobody Mon Oct 20 10:02:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE381A8924 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLbsD2QtProY for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16381A8BC1 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:50:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1805; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413823828; x=1415033428; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=tHzwwWOc3yApjG+uuAUkv0fN56y2YabOsuN0oJNqGZM=; b=XZL948a7CIF4a5BcxUs7y7MCruaGbWBN000EAY4t148JJemXfPbNSmy2 u7eQibJDK0XKd7YwKVS+2uoXSN04itfkm8CWM28o41t3X2rUwY/fflhxs YHTC19fHiP6AVTmp5eko1YON0GjTH7WMUmA5x+yKQEyk/8BXr+5Vyx3RX g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhYFAAg9RVStJA2G/2dsb2JhbABSCoMOU1gEzCAKh00CgRMWAX2EAgEBAQQBAQFrCwwEAgEIEQQBAQEnBycLFAkIAgQBDQWIPw3FbwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEj3VcBwaERQEEiySGXYtZliKDd2yBSIEDAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,757,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="88677847" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Oct 2014 16:50:28 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com [173.36.12.85]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9KGoSmD007397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:50:28 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.63]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:50:28 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" , "Eric Rosen" , "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCqCPPBtK5NCEyV/WsG8ohM3Zw48B8AgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAamwCAAAH3AIAABEsA///RMIA= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:50:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <544528B8.80305@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 x-originating-ip: [10.21.71.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/yDDXdYBcQpOcPy1PBIT7iPxLk7k Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:02:57 -0000 Hi Somasundaram, The Bit string to be used for forwarding will be pulled from the BiER header. But the SI and/or MT-ID doesn=B9t require a look in BiER header as it can be inferred from the label itself. As mentioned in BiER encap and OSPF extension draft, in MPLS network, a unique label will be assigned for each Bitstream length (or simply for each SI) and MT-ID. So we save the context lookup in BiER header (by looking into different fields). Instead a label lookup will help identify the context into which the actual bit string lookup should be performed. Thanks, Nagendra=20 On 10/20/14, 11:37 AM, "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" wrote: >Yes... I was referring to BFR .. Can you clarify on why is the statement >not correct? > >>>>Not following. In the MPLS encaps, set id and mt-id are not in the >>>>BIER header. > >I apologize.. just got confused with the other proposal on encapsulation.. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net] >Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:53 PM >To: S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram); IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk >Cc: erosen@juniper.net; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > >On 10/20/2014 11:15 AM, S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram) wrote: > >> The MPLS label only identifies the BIR here. > >I'm not sure what you mean by "BIR". Did you mean "BFR"? If so, the >statement is not correct. > >> So despite being MPLS encapsulated, "Bit string, set id and MT-ID" are >>used for replication. > >Not following. In the MPLS encaps, set id and mt-id are not in the BIER >header. > > > >_______________________________________________ >BIER mailing list >BIER@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 20 22:51:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668241AD040 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 22:51:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7LsvMfNCjJb for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 22:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BE991AD003 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 22:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNW22722; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 05:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:51:33 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 13:51:27 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgACG00D//7lXgIAApIAA Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 05:51:27 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C377A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3124@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <3D677CE8-221B-46D6-BA2F-5976B9AAFBA2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3D677CE8-221B-46D6-BA2F-5976B9AAFBA2@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/mmXaIsuRulFTjOAAD6w1F0gihWY Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 05:51:39 -0000 SGkgSWNlLA0KDQpGcm9tIHRoZSBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5IHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlLCBJTUhPLCB0aGUg QklFUiBoZWFkZXIgaXMgbXVjaCBzaW1pbGFyIHdpdGggdGhlIElQdjYgaGVhZGVyIHdoaWNoIGlz IHVzZWQgYXMgYW4gdW5kZXJsYXkgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBoZWFkZXIgZm9yIG92ZXJsYXkgbXVs dGljYXN0L2Jyb2FkY2FzdC91bmtvd24tdW5pY2FzdCBwYWNrZXRzLiBJbiB0aGUgZm9ybWVyIGNh c2UsIGFsbCB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXJzIG9mIGEgZ2l2ZW4gQklFUi1lbmNhcHN1bGF0ZWQgcGFja2V0 IGFyZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGluZGljYXRlZCBieSB0aGUgY29tYmluYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIFNJIGFu ZCBCaXRTdHJpbmcgZmllbGRzLiBJbiB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIGNhc2UsIGFsbCB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZXJz 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2367A1AD06E for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fv_Fx4O_H08b for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC5AF1AD012 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNW27419; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:43:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:42:02 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:41:59 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Alia Atlas , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABqyAgAFvqkA= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:41:58 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Aak9y7j7_MZvvVhI2FXln7h1M2E Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list 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07:31:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:31:48 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:31:37 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: Alia Atlas , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DpevyxynZ80a06RMuj2PL3bT5w4HYoAgAAFiACAAALOAIAABooAgAA9rgCAAA4bgIAAIoAAgAAD7YCAAAargIABdrG7 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:31:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A70Ankgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/pT7-Zk6VYBcGOf8e-OvzIMSk1r8 Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Lucy yong , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , Eric Rosen Subject: [Bier] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEJJRVIgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbg==?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication 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Hi Alia,

I agree with your opinion abou= t BIER application in the DC case, i also think it's not necessary to = introduce another overlay encapsulation in NVO3 area.

Underlay network distribution = tree can be used to carry NVO3 overlay multicast traffic, the distribution = tree can be established using traditional PIM protocol or using IS-IS exten= sion similar solution. As described in BIER probl= em statements, currently in underlay network also there are the c= hallenges as follows:

 

1. Complexity. Independant PIM= like protocol should be deployed besides unicast IGP/BGP protocol.<= /p>

2. Long convergence timer. Mul= ticast network convergence catenated with unicast network convergence.

3. Maintain per flow forwardin= g state.

 

IS-IS extension similar mechan= ism can be used to replace PIM to reduce complexity and convergence timer, = it converges unicast and multicast protocols into a single protocol.=

As for per flow forwarding sta= te,  flow state can be aggregated using the idea similar to BIER, but = using standard NVO3(VXLAN/NVGRE,etc) data format instead of full new encaps= ulation. We can use a underlay multicast group address instead of BitString to represent a set of underlay edge dev= ices.

 

If multipe overlay multicast g= roups attaches to same underlay edge devices, same underlay multicast group= can be used to carry the traffic of these overlay multicast groups. Each N= VO3 edge device uses the corresponding underlay multicast group to perform NVO3 encapsulation when it sends multi= cast traffic to underlay network, underlay network devices rely on the underlay multicast group to re= plicate and forward multicast traffic, these devices don't need maintain per flow multicast state.

 

Thanks

weiguo

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER [bier-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Alia Atlas [akatlas@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA10=D4=C221=C8=D5 0:21
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Robert Raszuk
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsb= rand Wijnands; Eric Rosen
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation

Robert,

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk = <robert@raszuk.ne= t> wrote:

And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with L= FA (either native or its topology enhance version) ?

Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an MPL= S label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER header wou= ld have to be indicated next on the stack. 

The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limite= d data plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours.

I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments.  Und= erstanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the upcom= ing BoF.

One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for MVP= N.  Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator.

I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed ou= t to the NVO3 chairs.  However, I don't see a need to create another f= ull overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.).  One questio= n with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or such?  I do think there = could be a common base and then either an optional first word or two, depen= ding.  Taking a look at what type of extension/encapsulation would mak= e sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF around vxlan.
 
Regards,
Alia

Best,
R.

On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui)= Zhang" <zz= hang@juniper.net> wrote:
I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER hea= der itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to indic= ate that a BIER header follows.

For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that a= lso gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric = explained below.

Jeffrey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM
> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk
> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@= ietf.org; Eric Rosen
> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation
>
> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT
> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed.
>
> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that
> already appears in the header.  In the "generic" encaps= ulation, the
> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. = I see
> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation:
>
> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in=
> which the BitString is to be processed.  So you save the steps of=
> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the looku= p
> key that then gives you the context.
>
> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER<= br> > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we
> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traf= fic from
> certain "special" subscribers.  We could do this just b= y making the
> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wo= uldn't have
> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is=
> constructed.  This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility= that
> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assig= nment is
> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane=
> header.
>
> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems<= br> > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS.
>
> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR.  However, if one is goi= ng to
> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane.  After all, BIER is alre= ady
> incompatible with existing DC routers.
>
> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can=
> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename=
> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens t= o
> resemble the MPLS label stack".   As has been pointed o= ut, there is no
> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as thi= s
> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the
> BIER-specific control info.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A70Ankgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:35:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863281AD080 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:35:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 327Y9ZVUS5HG for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 649131AD08F for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:35:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8362; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413876929; x=1415086529; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=wNcWZaNy+QXTgV6R2Ng8sFbcCNA1GOn4V8DIyZtjvX4=; b=jinxs4J2agJarXw6CyijNO23L3DX4x2/dBhnyXfoGLHTZCcLuHpSxa+K HLEs6iH72WMVX7GNltf5Kv6rPhsz5+dKXcEhoASYGbHb26ri3+b7YmDfy gbpJs5CboS0y8nLjvSSxQmuN2mzptM+tJ+7hPxVDwc/9SqkRP7/rr2P+Q c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: An8QAFMIRlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg2FYuQIBAQEBAQEFAXOSCgqHSQICAoEkAX2EAgEBAQMBAQEBawsFBwQLEQQBAQEnByEGHwkIBhOIKwMJCA2+FQ2GLgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEhiOHeoFcJTMHBoMngR4BBJtJghGPSIZag3k7L4EGgUUBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,760,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="214319124" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2014 07:35:27 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9L7ZHJw025453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:35:26 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:35:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/JHCKMTSjVyaVqEqiV0P6MMlOMDo Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:35:33 -0000 Xiaohu, I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate = multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the =91generic=92 = BIER encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value used = as an indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and = any other value you want to add in the future). The data-plane is not = overloaded with multiple lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table = that needs to be used to forward the packet using the BitString. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20= | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL |=20= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ~ ~ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | BFIR-id (optional) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Thx, Ice. On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Let=92s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER application: = only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we = could either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the = BitString which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP = encapsulation with the destination being filled with the address of that = egress PE. > =20 > Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress = replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n = copies for a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a = particular egress PE. Since n copies (n =20 > =46rom the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a = totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses = could be indicated (by the BitString). > =20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu > =20 > From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM > To: Robert Raszuk > Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand = Wijnands; Eric Rosen > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > =20 > Robert, > =20 > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: > And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either = native or its topology enhance version) ? >=20 > Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an = MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER = header would have to be indicated next on the stack.=20 > The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data = plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. >=20 > I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. = Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the = upcoming BoF. > =20 > One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for = MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. > =20 > I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed = out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another = full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question = with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new = encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base and then = either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what = type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds = interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF = around vxlan. > =20 > Regards, > Alia > Best, > R. >=20 > On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = wrote: > I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the = BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another = label to indicate that a BIER header follows. >=20 > For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label = that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits = that Eric explained below. >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > > > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT > > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > > > > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that > > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the > > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I = see > > a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > > > > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context = in > > which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the = lookup > > key that then gives you the context. > > > > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the = BIER > > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't > > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we > > decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from > > certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the > > appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to > > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't = have > > to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key = is > > constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility = that > > MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is > > based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data = plane > > header. > > > > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it = seems > > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > > > > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going = to > > introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already > > incompatible with existing DC routers. > > > > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we = can > > just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can = rename > > it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to > > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is = no > > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as = this > > is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > > BIER-specific control info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 > =20 From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:39:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1681AD06E for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSIq3CuPYf6l for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22a.google.com (mail-ig0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 944A91A6FBE for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f170.google.com with SMTP id hn15so7787675igb.5 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pXBh3+nuwxHKIBW6F4KDzYut/Rm2IbUPoXxzHbk/MGs=; b=NIVm+5BDO5IvoadtAZpoYAGPHtxOaqUy1+vfsIfYcMYe8YCW8LDqJPujde6Kgl/PMe Yi8h4YXrVyiPVdUszbszXVVaSmM5Q/PfGQlDxnJ8Okt1J/C6BCFz45s9BIWyehTX1c9c PioC6Y+dQkNLkgfk7UhgaObEMqmegV5xxaGfu/lYnK55O1Qe6jVmDe5KW82qn2kIarC+ ZTxpdItX0muLfSqre74Z28LYU2VLKlBTUUgEL+LBNlHuHyLVWWjxVHkWzlWme6dXKkFs XBkgUlC+CMLQ/Ic6c8vdRaAuAKpvLQmmvYX3ZiseefRjbxxo6q1jcnZiqs4jOK+g352i lhOw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.122.100 with SMTP id lr4mr14896485igb.9.1413877166926; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:39:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:39:26 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: lJaes94YXnIj4-Lnb5SE4qns9zI Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/pOja1FPp9Im3gmg6wmqfrZbL-Vc Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:39:29 -0000 Ice, What you propose has not much value as ethertype just below such header can easily point to BIFT table. Why to have two things (table_id and ethertype) pointing to the same context in each packet ? r. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Xiaohu, > > I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate mu= lticast packets. Does it help you to think about the =E2=80=98generic=E2=80= =99 BIER encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value use= d as an indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and an= y other value you want to add in the future). The data-plane is not overloa= ded with multiple lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table that needs= to be used to forward the packet using the BitString. > > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BFIR-id (optional) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: > >> Let=E2=80=99s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER applicatio= n: only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we coul= d either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the BitStrin= g which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP encapsulation with= the destination being filled with the address of that egress PE. >> >> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress replicatio= n perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n copies for a given= overlay BUM packet with each destined for a particular egress PE. Since n= copies (n> >> From the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a totally= -new network layer in which one or more destination addresses could be indi= cated (by the BitString). >> >> Best regards, >> Xiaohu >> >> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM >> To: Robert Raszuk >> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands;= Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >> >> Robert, >> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk wrot= e: >> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either n= ative or its topology enhance version) ? >> >> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an MPLS = label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER header would= have to be indicated next on the stack. >> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data plane= paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. >> >> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. Understand= ing the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the upcoming BoF= . >> >> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for MVPN.= Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. >> >> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed out = to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another full ove= rlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question with BIER = is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or= such? I do think there could be a common base and then either an optional= first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what type of extension/enc= apsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are al= so some change control issues for the IETF around vxlan. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> Best, >> R. >> >> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = wrote: >> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER = header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to in= dicate that a BIER header follows. >> >> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label tha= t also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Er= ic explained below. >> >> Jeffrey >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen >> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM >> > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk >> > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen >> > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >> > >> > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a >> > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT >> > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. >> > >> > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that >> > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the >> > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I se= e >> > a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >> > >> > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context in >> > which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of >> > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the looku= p >> > key that then gives you the context. >> > >> > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIER >> > header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't >> > depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we >> > decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from >> > certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the >> > appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to >> > change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't hav= e >> > to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key is >> > constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility that >> > MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a >> > packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is >> > based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data plane >> > header. >> > >> > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seems >> > logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >> > >> > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one >> > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one >> > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going to >> > introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could >> > also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already >> > incompatible with existing DC routers. >> > >> > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we can >> > just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rename >> > it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to >> > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no >> > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as thi= s >> > is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the >> > BIER-specific control info. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > BIER mailing list >> > BIER@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:41:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38971A6FBE for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:41:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qcD5jEjFroVe for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A00131AD068 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:41:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9156; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413877308; x=1415086908; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+YIXB4mfmrYQuhRBoaFhlHdboDtGSDEoO+r/cnZ+KGo=; b=GbEBeYKd6VaSVnIskT7C60tckbQUnfWMUsPzVpFgA8G+1PMx0Qssh5cX DEzS0g3IM/m631xvM87cuSkWSeuJW1X52ARExQ7zZ05dY/BwdyC+45Ski oYQtYyzcH0W9VjnbIG7r2nld51gmt4YR9rG0V+uXy8SP0fcx5axN/tMve 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AncKAFMIRlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg2FYuQIBAQEBAQEFAXOSCgqHTQKBJAF9hAIBAQEDAQEBAWsLBQcECxEEAQEBJwchBh8JCAYTiCsDCQgNvhUNhi4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIYjh3qBXCUzBwaDJ4EeAQSbSYIRj0iGWoN5Oy+BBoFFAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,760,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="218435531" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2014 07:41:45 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9L7fZWO012285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:41:43 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:41:34 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/IFeOsxK5b2w_Cx1xtrUcL_7rpNA Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:41:51 -0000 Because it allows you to use more then one BIFT table. Even if you don=92t= use MT-ID, each SetID have its own BIFT. On 21 Oct 2014, at 09:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Ice, >=20 > What you propose has not much value as ethertype just below such > header can easily point to BIFT table. Why to have two things > (table_id and ethertype) pointing to the same context in each packet ? >=20 > r. >=20 > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands = wrote: >> Xiaohu, >>=20 >> I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and = replicate multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the = =91generic=92 BIER encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 = bit value used as an indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString = Length, (and any other value you want to add in the future). The = data-plane is not overloaded with multiple lookups, the Table ID points = to the BIFT table that needs to be used to forward the packet using the = BitString. >>=20 >>=20 >> 0 1 2 3 >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL | >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> ~ ~ >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> | BFIR-id (optional) | >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >>=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >>=20 >>=20 >> On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: >>=20 >>> Let=92s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER application: = only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we = could either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the = BitString which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP = encapsulation with the destination being filled with the address of that = egress PE. >>>=20 >>> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress = replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n = copies for a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a = particular egress PE. Since n copies (n>>=20 >>> =46rom the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a = totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses = could be indicated (by the BitString). >>>=20 >>> Best regards, >>> Xiaohu >>>=20 >>> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM >>> To: Robert Raszuk >>> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand = Wijnands; Eric Rosen >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >>>=20 >>> Robert, >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: >>> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA = (either native or its topology enhance version) ? >>>=20 >>> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an = MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER = header would have to be indicated next on the stack. >>> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data = plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. >>>=20 >>> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. = Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the = upcoming BoF. >>>=20 >>> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for = MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. >>>=20 >>> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed = out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another = full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question = with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new = encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base and then = either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what = type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds = interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF = around vxlan. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Alia >>> Best, >>> R. >>>=20 >>> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = wrote: >>> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the = BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another = label to indicate that a BIER header follows. >>>=20 >>> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label = that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits = that Eric explained below. >>>=20 >>> Jeffrey >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen >>>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM >>>> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk >>>> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen >>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >>>>=20 >>>> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a >>>> lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT >>>> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. >>>>=20 >>>> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that >>>> already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the >>>> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I = see >>>> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >>>>=20 >>>> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context = in >>>> which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of >>>> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the = lookup >>>> key that then gives you the context. >>>>=20 >>>> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the = BIER >>>> header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't >>>> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we >>>> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic = from >>>> certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the >>>> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to >>>> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't = have >>>> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key = is >>>> constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility = that >>>> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a >>>> packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment = is >>>> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data = plane >>>> header. >>>>=20 >>>> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it = seems >>>> logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >>>>=20 >>>> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one >>>> doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but = one >>>> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going = to >>>> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one = could >>>> also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is = already >>>> incompatible with existing DC routers. >>>>=20 >>>> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we = can >>>> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can = rename >>>> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to >>>> resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is = no >>>> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as = this >>>> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the >>>> BIER-specific control info. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BIER mailing list >>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:49:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF3F1AD0A3 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:49:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YfqThyXzPeh for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498B51A6FA9 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 849FE1FC4DD3B; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:49:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s9L7nA2d000972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 03:49:12 -0400 Received: from SG70YWXCHHUB03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com (135.253.2.37) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 03:49:11 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHMBA03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.2]) by SG70YWXCHHUB03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.253.2.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:49:08 +0800 From: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Xuxiaohu Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DC2tMbCStKuvUy1OIi1njKLoJw4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABqyAgAFvqkD//4+XgIAAiduQ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:49:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.253.19.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/stJRrqouir3tgDzvR4Y5Y7lXAYA Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:49:17 -0000 Hi Ice, Are you proposing this new encapsulation? Regards Somasundaram -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IJsbrand Wijnands Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 1:05 PM To: Xuxiaohu Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Xiaohu, I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate mult= icast packets. Does it help you to think about the 'generic' BIER encapsula= tion to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value used as an indirectio= n that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and any other value you = want to add in the future). The data-plane is not overloaded with multiple = lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table that needs to be used to for= ward the packet using the BitString. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20 | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL |=20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ~ ~ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | BFIR-id (optional) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Thx, Ice. On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Let's have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER application: only o= ne egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we could either = use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the BitString which i= s corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP encapsulation with the dest= ination being filled with the address of that egress PE. > =20 > Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress replication= perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n copies for a given = overlay BUM packet with each destined for a particular egress PE. Since n = copies (n =20 > From the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a totally-= new network layer in which one or more destination addresses could be indic= ated (by the BitString). > =20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu > =20 > From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM > To: Robert Raszuk > Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand=20 > Wijnands; Eric Rosen > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > =20 > Robert, > =20 > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote= : > And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either na= tive or its topology enhance version) ? >=20 > Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an MPLS l= abel indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER header would = have to be indicated next on the stack.=20 > The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data plane = paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. >=20 > I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. Understandi= ng the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the upcoming BoF. > =20 > One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for MVPN. = Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. > =20 > I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed out t= o the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another full over= lay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question with BIER i= s whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or = such? I do think there could be a common base and then either an optional = first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what type of extension/enca= psulation would make sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are als= o some change control issues for the IETF around vxlan. > =20 > Regards, > Alia > Best, > R. >=20 > On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" w= rote: > I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER h= eader itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to ind= icate that a BIER header follows. >=20 > For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label that= also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eri= c explained below. >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > > > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a=20 > > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT=20 > > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > > > > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that=20 > > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the=20 > > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I=20 > > see a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > > > > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context=20 > > in which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of=20 > > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the=20 > > lookup key that then gives you the context. > > > > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the=20 > > BIER header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context=20 > > doesn't depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all.=20 > > Suppose we decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for=20 > > traffic from certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just=20 > > by making the appropriate modifications in the control plane; we=20 > > wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id",=20 > > and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to change=20 > > the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very=20 > > similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding=20 > > -- an ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence=20 > > class", where that assignment is based on information that does not=20 > > appear explicitly in the data plane header. > > > > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it=20 > > seems logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > > > > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one=20 > > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one=20 > > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going=20 > > to introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one=20 > > could also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is=20 > > already incompatible with existing DC routers. > > > > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we=20 > > can just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can=20 > > rename it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens = to > > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is no > > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as=20 > > this is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the=20 > > BIER-specific control info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 > =20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:50:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705BA1AD0A6 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mE-Xz25RGfBm for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2918F1AD0A1 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id rd18so634171iec.36 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=4GjCfisaF7M6pfv5M1PkR5KoPyqO4ROT2aahyG3mKLw=; b=OBga9YWmNxyvjMGj31vcoFVKzWK955fDKguMIKVd7/rJcsJrH+fmEGM4m2muB+Leqf Bo5eEUzK9h1iF7g3tSF0wC7pykJZ0WPAUCCbaTFawUkPaYDDz2kvtQLdMOH58Ck91yvD 8jDWA9fq1E/ZSAUKf/XsJTGb2BU5p3mVHfLSs0cd2OFa7gdGnYs7F4TQpO2S4qux8mo9 MY2/mJk3+C3Uzn0CAmb/z2PAZTT4udYNNwDCSAsA3uFICQRCRduSfNyTy7+Nmf2/J/Ss 0b8TLaAwdbkjCF7otFbz9ChmU6ZY7dxLl1x1NRqHP5zGNWgPztcmLfaNipCt2t01eCYV GH0g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.133.5 with SMTP id h5mr15258945iod.47.1413877824487; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:50:24 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: lBAwAbKUCbP7pN0Z0HkbMQvYsyY Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ea4f07c06a90505ea159f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/-bF5OTyUkkDAWi8WJZfZpfVpkgA Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:50:30 -0000 --001a113ea4f07c06a90505ea159f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But proposed header has exactly 20 bits to use different BIFT too ... it is just they are call differently =E2=80=8B: SI + MT-ID=E2=80=8B :) 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Ver | BS Length | SI | MT-ID | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =E2=80=8BSo what difference it is for you ? After all =E2=80=8Bthis is just= binary string you read from the packet and perform lookup upon. Btw I am not sure if we need MT-ID so wide so we may have some spare room for new ideas there :) r. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Because it allows you to use more then one BIFT table. Even if you don=E2= =80=99t > use MT-ID, each SetID have its own BIFT. > > On 21 Oct 2014, at 09:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > Ice, > > > > What you propose has not much value as ethertype just below such > > header can easily point to BIFT table. Why to have two things > > (table_id and ethertype) pointing to the same context in each packet ? > > > > r. > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > wrote: > >> Xiaohu, > >> > >> I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate > multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the =E2=80=98generic= =E2=80=99 BIER > encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value used as an > indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and any othe= r > value you want to add in the future). The data-plane is not overloaded wi= th > multiple lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table that needs to be > used to forward the packet using the BitString. > >> > >> > >> 0 1 2 3 > >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL | > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> ~ ~ > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | BFIR-id (optional) | > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> > >> Thx, > >> > >> Ice. > >> > >> > >> On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: > >> > >>> Let=E2=80=99s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER applica= tion: > only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we could > either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the BitStrin= g > which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP encapsulation with > the destination being filled with the address of that egress PE. > >>> > >>> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress > replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n copies > for a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a particular egress > PE. Since n copies (n ingress PE decides to =E2=80=9Caggregates=E2=80=9D that n copies into one= copy by listing > egress PEs for those n copies within one copy. > >>> > >>> From the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a > totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses coul= d > be indicated (by the BitString). > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> Xiaohu > >>> > >>> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM > >>> To: Robert Raszuk > >>> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand > Wijnands; Eric Rosen > >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > >>> > >>> Robert, > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: > >>> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (eithe= r > native or its topology enhance version) ? > >>> > >>> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an > MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER heade= r > would have to be indicated next on the stack. > >>> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data > plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. > >>> > >>> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. > Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the > upcoming BoF. > >>> > >>> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for > MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. > >>> > >>> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed > out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another fu= ll > overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question with > BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new > encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base and then > either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what > type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds > interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF > around vxlan. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Alia > >>> Best, > >>> R. > >>> > >>> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > wrote: > >>> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the > BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another labe= l > to indicate that a BIER header follows. > >>> > >>> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label > that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits th= at > Eric explained below. > >>> > >>> Jeffrey > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > >>>> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > >>>> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > >>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > >>>> > >>>> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > >>>> lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT > >>>> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > >>>> > >>>> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that > >>>> already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the > >>>> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I > see > >>>> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context = in > >>>> which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > >>>> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the > lookup > >>>> key that then gives you the context. > >>>> > >>>> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the BIE= R > >>>> header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context doesn't > >>>> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose we > >>>> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic from > >>>> certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making the > >>>> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have to > >>>> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we wouldn't > have > >>>> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup key = is > >>>> constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility th= at > >>>> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign a > >>>> packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment is > >>>> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data pla= ne > >>>> header. > >>>> > >>>> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it seem= s > >>>> logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > >>>> > >>>> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > >>>> doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > >>>> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going = to > >>>> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one could > >>>> also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is already > >>>> incompatible with existing DC routers. > >>>> > >>>> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we c= an > >>>> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can rena= me > >>>> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens to > >>>> resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is = no > >>>> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as > this > >>>> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > >>>> BIER-specific control info. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BIER mailing list > >>>> BIER@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> BIER mailing list > >>> BIER@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >>> > >>> > >> > > --001a113ea4f07c06a90505ea159f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But proposed header = has exactly 20 bits to use different BIFT too ... it is just they are call = differently
=E2=80=8B: SI + MT-ID=E2= =80=8B
:)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0Ver =C2=A0| =C2=A0 BS Length =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT-ID = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

=E2= =80=8BSo what difference it is for you ? After all =E2=80=8Bthis is just bi= nary string you read from the packet and perform lookup upon.=C2=A0

Btw I am not sure i= f we need MT-ID so wide so we may have some spare room for new ideas there = :)=C2=A0

r.<= /div>



On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, IJsbrand= Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Because it allows you to use more then one BIFT table. Even if you don= =E2=80=99t use MT-ID, each SetID have its own BIFT.

On 21 Oct 2014, at 09:39, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Ice,
>
> What you propose has not much value as ethertype just below such
> header can easily point to BIFT table. Why to have two things
> (table_id and ethertype) pointing to the same context in each packet ?=
>
> r.
>
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Xiaohu,
>>
>> I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and repli= cate multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the =E2=80=98generi= c=E2=80=99 BIER encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit va= lue used as an indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, = (and any other value you want to add in the future). The data-plane is not = overloaded with multiple lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table tha= t needs to be used to forward the packet using the BitString.
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 = 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Table ID=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= Exp |1|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TTL=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|0 0 0 0|=C2=A0 Ver=C2=A0 |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Pro= to |=C2=A0 Len=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0Entropy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 BitString=C2=A0 (first 32 bits)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 BitString=C2=A0 (last 32 bits)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFIR-id (optional)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> Ice.
>>
>>
>> On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Let=E2=80=99s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER = application: only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this cas= e, we could either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of th= e BitString which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP encapsul= ation with the destination being filled with the address of that egress PE.=
>>>
>>> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress = replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n copies f= or a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a particular egress PE= . Since=C2=A0 n copies (n<m) need to be forwarded to a given next-hop,= =C2=A0 the ingress PE decides to =E2=80=9Caggregates=E2=80=9D that n copies= into one copy by listing egress PEs for those n copies within one copy. >>>
>>> From the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly= a totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses cou= ld be indicated (by the BitString).
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Xiaohu
>>>
>>> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:= akatlas@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM
>>> To: Robert Raszuk
>>> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands; Eric Rosen
>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA= (either native or its topology enhance version) ?
>>>
>>> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still b= e an MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER he= ader would have to be indicated next on the stack.
>>> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited = data plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours.
>>>
>>> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments.= =C2=A0 Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of= the upcoming BoF.
>>>
>>> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS= for MVPN.=C2=A0 Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator.
>>>
>>> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I po= inted out to the NVO3 chairs.=C2=A0 However, I don't see a need to crea= te another full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.).=C2=A0= One question with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header o= r a new encapsulation or such?=C2=A0 I do think there could be a common bas= e and then either an optional first word or two, depending.=C2=A0 Taking a = look at what type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sou= nds interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IET= F around vxlan.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alia
>>> Best,
>>> R.
>>>
>>> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" &= lt;zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:<= br> >>> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in= the BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another l= abel to indicate that a BIER header follows.
>>>
>>> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular= label that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefi= ts that Eric explained below.
>>>
>>> Jeffrey
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM
>>>> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk
>>>> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.o= rg; Eric Rosen
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation
>>>>
>>>> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to = extract a
>>>> lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find = the BIFT
>>>> context in which the packet's BitString is to be proce= ssed.
>>>>
>>>> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS la= bel that
>>>> already appears in the header.=C2=A0 In the "generic&= quot; encapsulation, the
>>>> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER h= eader.=C2=A0 I see
>>>> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >>>>
>>>> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIF= T context in
>>>> which the BitString is to be processed.=C2=A0 So you save = the steps of
>>>> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produ= ce the lookup
>>>> key that then gives you the context.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not = by the BIER
>>>> header, the assignment of a given packet to a given contex= t doesn't
>>>> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Su= ppose we
>>>> decide someday that we want to use a "special" B= IFT for traffic from
>>>> certain "special" subscribers.=C2=A0 We could do= this just by making the
>>>> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn&= #39;t have to
>>>> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id"= ;, and we wouldn't have
>>>> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the l= ookup key is
>>>> constructed.=C2=A0 This flexibility is very similar to the= flexibility that
>>>> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can= assign a
>>>> packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", wher= e that assignment is
>>>> based on information that does not appear explicitly in th= e data plane
>>>> header.
>>>>
>>>> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS network= s, it seems
>>>> logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS.
>>>>
>>>> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, = where one
>>>> doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building prot= ocols, but one
>>>> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR.=C2=A0 Howeve= r, if one is going to
>>>> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments,= one could
>>>> also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane.=C2=A0 After all, = BIER is already
>>>> incompatible with existing DC routers.
>>>>
>>>> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environ= ment, we can
>>>> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, w= e can rename
>>>> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that ju= st happens to
>>>> resemble the MPLS label stack".=C2=A0 =C2=A0As has be= en pointed out, there is no
>>>> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label va= lues, as this
>>>> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed th= e
>>>> BIER-specific control info.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BIER mailing list
>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>
>>>
>>


--001a113ea4f07c06a90505ea159f-- From nobody Tue Oct 21 00:52:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D971AD0B2 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0EhMPP3rWwOd for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4512C1AD0AE for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:52:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9296; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413877928; x=1415087528; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=k46Uj///Md6XIkc87qrdiRQjfvpG3b0IwxvaHhKi5iE=; b=Djavtfk1OXlrsoR7wnxsg5fUNwUP9npfhrtREX29Qt2C9DzE3h2iVyBR RScpEnMdgEs2HJJRPo4UeBTHxod1+UP6t0WCjajJ7dIyUI1eocM7vemcO FvIifNNhXXn54+AViiepBgl9AHcJ8qyXEB69YTscoIYrCJFGIWS4W8HDJ U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AncKAI4ORlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg2FYuQIBAQEBAQEFAXOSCgqHTQKBJAF9hAIBAQEDAQEBAWsLBQcECxEEAQEBJwchBh8JCAYTiCsDCQgNvWgNhi4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIYjh3qBXCUzBwaDJ4EeAQSbSYIRj0iGWoN5Oy+BBoFFAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,760,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="219095241" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2014 07:52:06 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9L7q3VL001231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:52:05 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:52:02 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7155A18F-ED06-41A8-BB0C-1BF96E7DE1D8@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/GG92521Y5r9zEfLEb2H0AFKSXps Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:52:35 -0000 Hi Somasundaram, Of course not,=85 Thx, Ice. On 21 Oct 2014, at 09:49, S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram) = wrote: > Hi Ice, > Are you proposing this new encapsulation? >=20 > Regards > Somasundaram >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IJsbrand = Wijnands > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 1:05 PM > To: Xuxiaohu > Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen; Robert Raszuk > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > Xiaohu, >=20 > I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate = multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the 'generic' BIER = encapsulation to be like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value used as = an indirection that represents SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and any = other value you want to add in the future). The data-plane is not = overloaded with multiple lookups, the Table ID points to the BIFT table = that needs to be used to forward the packet using the BitString. >=20 >=20 > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20= > | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL |=20= > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BFIR-id (optional) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 >=20 > On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: >=20 >> Let's have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER application: = only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we = could either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the = BitString which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP = encapsulation with the destination being filled with the address of that = egress PE. >>=20 >> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress = replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n = copies for a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a = particular egress PE. Since n copies (n>=20 >> =46rom the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a = totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses = could be indicated (by the BitString). >>=20 >> Best regards, >> Xiaohu >>=20 >> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM >> To: Robert Raszuk >> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand=20 >> Wijnands; Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >>=20 >> Robert, >>=20 >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: >> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA = (either native or its topology enhance version) ? >>=20 >> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an = MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER = header would have to be indicated next on the stack.=20 >> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data = plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. >>=20 >> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. = Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the = upcoming BoF. >>=20 >> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for = MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. >>=20 >> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed = out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another = full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question = with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new = encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base and then = either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look at what = type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan sounds = interesting - but there are also some change control issues for the IETF = around vxlan. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Alia >> Best, >> R. >>=20 >> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = wrote: >> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the = BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another = label to indicate that a BIER header follows. >>=20 >> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label = that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits = that Eric explained below. >>=20 >> Jeffrey >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen >>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM >>> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk >>> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >>>=20 >>> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a=20= >>> lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT=20= >>> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. >>>=20 >>> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that=20= >>> already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the=20= >>> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I=20= >>> see a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: >>>=20 >>> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context=20= >>> in which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of=20= >>> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the=20 >>> lookup key that then gives you the context. >>>=20 >>> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the=20 >>> BIER header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context=20 >>> doesn't depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all.=20 >>> Suppose we decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for=20= >>> traffic from certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just=20= >>> by making the appropriate modifications in the control plane; we=20 >>> wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id",=20= >>> and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to change=20 >>> the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very=20 >>> similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding=20= >>> -- an ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence=20= >>> class", where that assignment is based on information that does not=20= >>> appear explicitly in the data plane header. >>>=20 >>> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it=20 >>> seems logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. >>>=20 >>> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one=20= >>> doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one=20= >>> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going=20= >>> to introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one=20 >>> could also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is=20= >>> already incompatible with existing DC routers. >>>=20 >>> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we=20= >>> can just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can=20= >>> rename it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just = happens to >>> resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is = no >>> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as=20= >>> this is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the=20 >>> BIER-specific control info. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Oct 21 01:03:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5F41AD0AA for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:02:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j4B2kfw_09dq for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA9FB1AD0AC for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:02:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10874; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413878554; x=1415088154; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yVei73g2MaewMcT+oJrfvkLDwuW65jo3LhEvO8qUEuk=; b=eT5g5AklMgaziDx2aFR+YWfTSsmXn4lTwnQZPCT+amEoe7kQ+uq8/WG4 O915aQ7ZqdKnytPb/ZnIJVjmAVzwdChfcoRqGtx3fE6XyFq5Dbc1WTobM 7wK0zYpirnjib6JyfNd3ttYmvgJ38BjMTHYjb1n48K8Q9kl4R9eXJRFyt 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnoKAI4ORlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg2FYgwa1fAEBAQEBAQUBc5IKCodNAoEkAX2EAgEBAQMBAQEBIEsLBQcECxEEAQEBAgIjAwICIQYfCQgGE4grAwkIDa8wjjgNhi4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIEshHeEMINKgVwlMwcGgnE2gR4Fm0mCEYEwhnOHJYZag3k7L4EGgUUBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,760,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="219103580" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2014 08:02:32 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9L82UGb019990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:02:32 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:02:29 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/5y92cH8G5JZuXln_TU-3L72WU9c Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:02:55 -0000 Robert, > But proposed header has exactly 20 bits to use different BIFT too ... = it is just they are call differently=E2=80=8B: SI + MT-ID=E2=80=8B :)=20 Is BS Length not part of it? >=20 > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 = 1 > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Ver | BS Length | SI | MT-ID = | > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > =E2=80=8BSo what difference it is for you ? After all =E2=80=8Bthis is = just binary string you read from the packet and perform lookup upon.=20 >=20 > Btw I am not sure if we need MT-ID so wide so we may have some spare = room for new ideas there :)=20 Two great question, thank you for asking :-) By not statically nailing the fields (like you do above), we achieve = control-plane separation from the data-plane. You already ask the = question if the MT-ID needs to be this wide, we don=E2=80=99t worry = about that anymore. Also, what if you want additional fields? Using an = MPLS label as an indirection is a very flexible approach. I hope you can = see that. Thx, Ice. >=20 > r. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands = wrote: > Because it allows you to use more then one BIFT table. Even if you = don=E2=80=99t use MT-ID, each SetID have its own BIFT. >=20 > On 21 Oct 2014, at 09:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > > Ice, > > > > What you propose has not much value as ethertype just below such > > header can easily point to BIFT table. Why to have two things > > (table_id and ethertype) pointing to the same context in each packet = ? > > > > r. > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands = wrote: > >> Xiaohu, > >> > >> I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and = replicate multicast packets. Does it help you to think about the = =E2=80=98generic=E2=80=99 BIER encapsulation to be like this? The Table = ID is an 20 bit value used as an indirection that represents SetID, = MT-ID, BitString Length, (and any other value you want to add in the = future). The data-plane is not overloaded with multiple lookups, the = Table ID points to the BIFT table that needs to be used to forward the = packet using the BitString. > >> > >> > >> 0 1 2 3 > >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 = 1 > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL = | > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy = | > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | BitString (first 32 bits) = ~ > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> ~ = ~ > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> ~ BitString (last 32 bits) = | > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> | BFIR-id (optional) = | > >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> > >> Thx, > >> > >> Ice. > >> > >> > >> On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: > >> > >>> Let=E2=80=99s have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER = application: only one egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this = case, we could either use the BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit = of the BitString which is corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP = encapsulation with the destination being filled with the address of that = egress PE. > >>> > >>> Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress = replication perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n = copies for a given overlay BUM packet with each destined for a = particular egress PE. Since n copies (n >>> > >>> =46rom the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a = totally-new network layer in which one or more destination addresses = could be indicated (by the BitString). > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> Xiaohu > >>> > >>> From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM > >>> To: Robert Raszuk > >>> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand = Wijnands; Eric Rosen > >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > >>> > >>> Robert, > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: > >>> And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA = (either native or its topology enhance version) ? > >>> > >>> Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an = MPLS label indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER = header would have to be indicated next on the stack. > >>> The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data = plane paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. > >>> > >>> I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. = Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the = upcoming BoF. > >>> > >>> One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for = MVPN. Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. > >>> > >>> I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I = pointed out to the NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create = another full overlay encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One = question with BIER is whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or = a new encapsulation or such? I do think there could be a common base = and then either an optional first word or two, depending. Taking a look = at what type of extension/encapsulation would make sense for vxlan = sounds interesting - but there are also some change control issues for = the IETF around vxlan. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Alia > >>> Best, > >>> R. > >>> > >>> On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = wrote: > >>> I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the = BIER header itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another = label to indicate that a BIER header follows. > >>> > >>> For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular = label that also gives you the topology and SI all the time, for the = benefits that Eric explained below. > >>> > >>> Jeffrey > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > >>>> To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > >>>> Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > >>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > >>>> > >>>> However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract = a > >>>> lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the = BIFT > >>>> context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > >>>> > >>>> With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label = that > >>>> already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, = the > >>>> lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. = I see > >>>> a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT = context in > >>>> which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > >>>> concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the = lookup > >>>> key that then gives you the context. > >>>> > >>>> 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the = BIER > >>>> header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context = doesn't > >>>> depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. Suppose = we > >>>> decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for traffic = from > >>>> certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just by making = the > >>>> appropriate modifications in the control plane; we wouldn't have = to > >>>> change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", and we = wouldn't have > >>>> to modify the forwarding procedure to change the way the lookup = key is > >>>> constructed. This flexibility is very similar to the flexibility = that > >>>> MPLS provides to unicast forwarding -- an ingress node can assign = a > >>>> packet to a "forwarding equivalence class", where that assignment = is > >>>> based on information that does not appear explicitly in the data = plane > >>>> header. > >>>> > >>>> If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it = seems > >>>> logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > >>>> > >>>> I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where = one > >>>> doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but = one > >>>> also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is = going to > >>>> introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one = could > >>>> also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is = already > >>>> incompatible with existing DC routers. > >>>> > >>>> For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, = we can > >>>> just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can = rename > >>>> it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happens = to > >>>> resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there = is no > >>>> MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, = as this > >>>> is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > >>>> BIER-specific control info. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> BIER mailing list > >>>> BIER@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> BIER mailing list > >>> BIER@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >>> > >>> > >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Oct 21 01:08:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DE991AD362 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.35 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.35 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ce3WWOmB0Rn5 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 610591AD1EE for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:05:42 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79916d00000623a-57-5445b64a8406 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 80.F9.25146.A46B5445; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 03:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 03:50:31 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Haoweiguo , Alia Atlas , "Robert Raszuk" Thread-Topic: =?gb2312?B?W0JpZXJdILTwuLQ6ICBCSUVSIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24=?= Thread-Index: AQHP7QEbpMOIZacL9Ue8uRMMnVgoJpw6K30w Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 07:50:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C0769@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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IS-IS extension similar mechanism= can be used to replace PIM to reduce complexity and convergence timer, it converges unicast and multicast protocols into a single protocol= .

 

[Tony s= aid] http://tools.ietf.org/html/r= fc1584   Long before most of the router companies in this ali= as here even existed. I=A1=AFm sure John will be excited when he gets a cal= l on Nantucket ;-) ;-) Now, those were times when the world was young and we weren=A1=AFt afraid to haul some _serious= _ state around in IGPs ;-) ;-)

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--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C0769eusaamb103ericsso_-- From nobody Tue Oct 21 01:13:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E171AD0D3 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:12:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OSj75j_5wwUF for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B751AD0D6 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNW37257; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:08:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:08:11 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:08:07 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABqyAgAFvqkD//4+XgIAAjJgA Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:08:07 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C380D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper. net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/E2KLzCnvR0AjFWUxBJDeG2-UNwg Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:13:00 -0000 Hi Ice, Honestly speaking, it looks like a frog with a tail. In other words, it is = on the way towards a complete network layer header. Best regards, Xiaohu > -----Original Message----- > From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:35 PM > To: Xuxiaohu > Cc: Alia Atlas; Robert Raszuk; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bier@ietf.org; Er= ic Rosen > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > Xiaohu, >=20 > I agree with you this is a completely new way to forward and replicate mu= lticast > packets. Does it help you to think about the 'generic' BIER encapsulation= to be > like this? The Table ID is an 20 bit value used as an indirection that re= presents > SetID, MT-ID, BitString Length, (and any other value you want to add in t= he > future). The data-plane is not overloaded with multiple lookups, the Tabl= e ID > points to the BIFT table that needs to be used to forward the packet usin= g the > BitString. >=20 >=20 > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Table ID | Exp |1| TTL | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 0| Ver |I|0 0 0 0 0 0 0| Proto | Len | Entropy | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BitString (first 32 bits) ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ > ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ BitString (last 32 bits) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BFIR-id (optional) | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 >=20 > On 21 Oct 2014, at 08:41, Xuxiaohu wrote: >=20 > > Let's have a look at one possible extreme of the BIER application: only= one > egress PE for a given overlay BUM packet. In this case, we could either u= se the > BIER encapsulation by setting only one bit of the BitString which is > corresponding to that egress PE or use the IP encapsulation with the dest= ination > being filled with the address of that egress PE. > > > > Or we can think about the BIER functionality from the ingress replicati= on > perspective: assume an ingress PE needs to replicate n copies for a given= overlay > BUM packet with each destined for a particular egress PE. Since n copies= (n need to be forwarded to a given next-hop, the ingress PE decides to > "aggregates" that n copies into one copy by listing egress PEs for those = n copies > within one copy. > > > > From the above reasoning, we can find that the BIER is exactly a totall= y-new > network layer in which one or more destination addresses could be indicat= ed > (by the BitString). > > > > Best regards, > > Xiaohu > > > > From: Alia Atlas [mailto:akatlas@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:22 AM > > To: Robert Raszuk > > Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand > > Wijnands; Eric Rosen > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > > > Robert, > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > And what is the advantage of MPLS FRR now as compared with LFA (either > native or its topology enhance version) ? > > > > Regardless of how the alternate is computed, there can still be an MPLS= label > indicating the merge-point; then the existence of a BIER header would hav= e to > be indicated next on the stack. > > The choice is simple ... you continue into closed and limited data plan= e > paradigm or you keep it open. Choice is yours. > > > > I think this comes down to common use-cases and deployments. > Understanding the technology and problem scope is a primary focus of the > upcoming BoF. > > > > One clear use-case that maps to a highly deployed case is MPLS for MVPN= . > Certainly, that seems to be a good motivator. > > > > I can certainly see BIER being useful in the DC case - as I pointed out= to the > NVO3 chairs. However, I don't see a need to create another full overlay > encapsulation (complete with TTL, QoS, etc.). One question with BIER is > whether it is viewed like a pseudo-wire header or a new encapsulation or = such? > I do think there could be a common base and then either an optional first= word > or two, depending. Taking a look at what type of extension/encapsulation > would make sense for vxlan sounds interesting - but there are also some c= hange > control issues for the IETF around vxlan. > > > > Regards, > > Alia > > Best, > > R. > > > > On Oct 20, 2014 5:43 PM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > wrote: > > I want to add that, even if the topology and SI are encoded in the BIER= header > itself, in case of MPLS based FRR, we still need another label to indicat= e that a > BIER header follows. > > > > For that you either use a special label, or just use a regular label th= at also gives > you the topology and SI all the time, for the benefits that Eric explaine= d below. > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rosen > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:40 AM > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands; Robert Raszuk > > > Cc: Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation > > > > > > However one does the BIER encapsulation, one still has to extract a > > > lookup key from the header, and then use that key to find the BIFT > > > context in which the packet's BitString is to be processed. > > > > > > With the MPLS encapsulation, the lookup key is the MPLS label that > > > already appears in the header. In the "generic" encapsulation, the > > > lookup key has to be constructed from fields in the BIER header. I > > > see a couple of advantages in using the MPLS encapsulation: > > > > > > 1. Looking up the MPLS label immediately gives you the BIFT context > > > in which the BitString is to be processed. So you save the steps of > > > concatenating various fields from the BIER header to produce the > > > lookup key that then gives you the context. > > > > > > 2. Since the BIFT context is determined by the label, not by the > > > BIER header, the assignment of a given packet to a given context > > > doesn't depend upon the fields in the data plane header at all. > > > Suppose we decide someday that we want to use a "special" BIFT for > > > traffic from certain "special" subscribers. We could do this just > > > by making the appropriate modifications in the control plane; we > > > wouldn't have to change the BIER header to carry a "subscriber id", > > > and we wouldn't have to modify the forwarding procedure to change > > > the way the lookup key is constructed. This flexibility is very > > > similar to the flexibility that MPLS provides to unicast forwarding > > > -- an ingress node can assign a packet to a "forwarding equivalence > > > class", where that assignment is based on information that does not > > > appear explicitly in the data plane header. > > > > > > If one thinks that most BIER usage will be on MPLS networks, it > > > seems logical to take advantage of these properties of MPLS. > > > > > > I see the point that BIER may be valuable in DC networks, where one > > > doesn't want to introduce multicast tree-building protocols, but one > > > also doesn't want the inefficiency of IR. However, if one is going > > > to introduce a BIER forwarding plane into those environments, one > > > could also introduce an MPLS forwarding plane. After all, BIER is > > > already incompatible with existing DC routers. > > > > > > For those who object to introducing MPLS in the DC environment, we > > > can just say that the MPLS label is part of the BIER header, we can > > > rename it to be the "non-MPLS 20-bit BIER lookup key that just happen= s to > > > resemble the MPLS label stack". As has been pointed out, there is n= o > > > MPLS-specific signaling needed to distributed the label values, as > > > this is done via the same IGP extensions used to distributed the > > > BIER-specific control info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > From nobody Tue Oct 21 01:21:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0030F1AD3E6 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMKokP74VzQv for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DDEC1AD16B for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id rd18so697314iec.1 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1IugTZl6SsFGdzDDYDCsOHIWJj6BzPOFYKZ5afkBcz0=; b=b1Z7JskfkDR4a7NetRszwGcyiWj4E5CA4aRcQ4HHY4GPv6QIz4uL3wQCcM2axmOIHP R6wYUXBHeYD1ZMFPyMhthM2zzcPCvnqMHOp0x96ru0DfGAdI0XjEIqfe2Hpuor1fkbv5 AI17yDtp/njmuzax2gSyduAjses/pghYNM25prJJhHun6z7Xzgpwy/+5hSvcFerpxqf+ ieelCjMxXC4BZ2QHKC2QIHMhxvVfbKlx7WZ9Puvp5gkuERu7k8vGNoRvfVt66eset1xh YFjaHsLkAxoiKnWb7VPry6Wb+ojp9JHy1CQ0weLmXrgsnncI2qrf/ShKKCABzrwMoLfC sCLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.159.18 with SMTP id i18mr33111556ioe.33.1413879270686; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:14:30 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WmT72AAZJ-pMnBqzq89mLCYxroc Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140f94eaf6b9e0505ea6b8a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/J8DR6wm8h8IV6PL_Z5eRIBavxT0 Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:21:44 -0000 --001a1140f94eaf6b9e0505ea6b8a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Is BS Length not part of it? > > =E2=80=8BIt a length .. you do not perform lookup based on that. I assume y= ou don't find it that difficult to read arbitrary string after any offset from the packet - right ? =E2=80=8B > By not statically nailing the fields (like you do above), we achieve > control-plane separation from the data-plane. =E2=80=8BLOL .. sorry control plane separation means not muxing N-values in= to one value. It means that your control plane procesing happens on different hardware then your data plane processing. Note that this is nothing new as such different hardware can be RP and LC which has been done for decades. > You already ask the question if the MT-ID needs to be this wide, we don= =E2=80=99t > worry about that anymore. Also, what if you want additional fields? Using > an MPLS label as an indirection is a very flexible approach. I hope you c= an > see that. > =E2=80=8BIce .. I am not the enemy of indirection. As you know I like L3VPN= with MPLS VPN label over GRE. For BIER however I see no point of such huge lookup space being used just to map packets to BIFT tables. Do you really plan =E2=80=8Bneed of 2^20 tab= les just because we already have a lookup mechanism for it in some network gear ? r. --001a1140f94eaf6b9e0505ea6b8a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is BS Length not part of it?


=E2=80=8BIt a = length .. you do not perform lookup based on that. I assume you don't f= ind it that difficult to read arbitrary string after any offset from the pa= cket - right ?=C2=A0

=E2=80=8B
By not statically nailing the fields (like you do above), we achieve contro= l-plane separation from the data-plane.

=E2=80=8BLOL .. sorry control plane separation means = not muxing N-values into one value. It means that your control plane proces= ing happens on different hardware then your data plane processing. Note tha= t this is nothing new as such different hardware can be RP and LC which has= been done for decades.
=C2=A0
You already ask the question if the MT-ID needs to be this wi= de, we don=E2=80=99t worry about that anymore. Also, what if you want addit= ional fields? Using an MPLS label as an indirection is a very flexible appr= oach. I hope you can see that.

=E2=80=8BIce .. I am not the enemy of indirection. As you k= now I like L3VPN with MPLS VPN label over GRE.=C2=A0

For BIER however I see no point of= such huge lookup space being used just to map packets to BIFT tables. Do y= ou really plan =E2=80=8Bneed of 2^20 tables just because we already have a = lookup mechanism for it in some network gear ?=C2=A0

r.


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--001a1140f94eaf6b9e0505ea6b8a-- From nobody Tue Oct 21 01:35:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6426F1A1A05 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wypza0lvrws5 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C1221AD3B3 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 01:26:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=330; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413879967; x=1415089567; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=D4M/UW/+wpQ6nY7ml5zfvqPjQLCSWBHtRax6pXMcjDw=; b=ftxDAbINF8wlVehzXZNScXD+jlUHLPKhCUpFkILRNB5qa8f1U212UMze YaZ1NN+Ydu27Z7v8UyFuTtj++NPJz7Wh40rkD5aYqwDmCzmONjFs6rZXx eZ1FuRbY3pyxVGDt/zUuNvxsDA7SV0Yw+F8ul2UcJsWfG4YI2cTmZ4qwI c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmQKAFsXRlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABchz+1fQEBAQEBAQUBc5lhAoEkAX2EAwEBAwEjVgULCxoCJgICVwaISgivKJRzAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARmBLIR3iXszB4J3NoEeAQSdWpYig3k7gnoBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,760,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="214362447" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2014 08:26:05 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9L8Q4WR029954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:26:04 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:26:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Hql58ClDTNdQEH9wdDUu_5SfEyc Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:35:54 -0000 Robert, > For BIER however I see no point of such huge lookup space being used = just to map packets to BIFT tables. Do you really plan =E2=80=8Bneed of = 2^20 tables just because we already have a lookup mechanism for it in = some network gear ?=20 The key is much smaller as to what you are proposing! Thx, Ice. From nobody Tue Oct 21 04:32:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587D31A1AC6 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 04:32:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.74 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tv29SEmeWAME for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 04:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B63741A1AC2 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 04:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNW61954; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:32:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:32:17 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 21 Oct 2014 19:32:05 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: Antoni Przygienda , Alia Atlas , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: =?gb2312?B?W0JpZXJdILTwuLQ6ICBCSUVSIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24=?= Thread-Index: AQHP7QPQTPKz5bk9wU2r4tCWjH/bvJw6adgz Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:32:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> , , <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C0769@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C0769@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A7E5nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/YjSFt9OGNWejTl-jUboqOjWgDxU Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Lucy yong , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , Eric Rosen Subject: [Bier] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogILTwuLQ6ICBCSUVSIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24=?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:32:25 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A7E5nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TU9TUEYgaXMgdXNlZCBmb3IgY29uc3RydWN0aW5nIHNob3J0ZXN0LXBhdGggdHJlZSB1c2luZyA8 c291cmNlLGdyb3VwPiBhcyBtdWx0aWNhc3QgIGZvcndhcmRpbmcga2V5LiBJdCBpcyBzaW1pbGFy IHRvIFBJTS1TTS4NCkJpZGlyLVBJTSBpcyBtb3JlIHBvcHVsYXIgaW4gZGF0YSBjZW50ZXIgbmV0 d29yaywgaXQgdXNlcyBzaGFyZSB0cmVlIG1vZGVsLCBubyA8c291cmNlLGdyb3VwPiBmb3J3YXJk aW5nIHN0YXRlIGFuZCBSRkMgY2hlY2sgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQgb24gZWFjaCBkZXZpY2UsIHNvICBp dCAgaXMgc2ltcGxlciB0aGFuIFBJTS1TTSBvciBNT1NQRi4gSVMtSVMgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIGNhbiBi ZSB1c2VkIHRvIHJlcGxhY2UgYmlkaXItUElNIHRvIGNvbnN0cnVjdCBiaS1kaXJlY3Rpb24gZGlz dHJpYnV0aW9uIHRyZWUgaW4gZGF0YSBjZW50ZXIgbmV0d29yay4NClRoYW5rcw0KDQp3ZWlndW8N Cg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCreivP7IyzogQW50b25pIFByenln aWVuZGEgW2FudG9uaS5wcnp5Z2llbmRhQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbV0NCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE0xOox MNTCMjHI1SAxNTo1MA0KytW8/sjLOiBIYW93ZWlndW87IEFsaWEgQXRsYXM7IFJvYmVydCBSYXN6 dWsNCrOty806IGJpZXJAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IElKc2JyYW5kIFdpam5hbmRzOyBMdWN5IHlvbmc7IEpl ZmZyZXkgKFpoYW9odWkpIFpoYW5nOyBYdXhpYW9odTsgRXJpYyBSb3Nlbg0K1vfM4jogUkU6IFtC aWVyXSC08Li0OiBCSUVSIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24NCg0KDQpJUy1JUyBleHRlbnNpb24gc2ltaWxh ciBtZWNoYW5pc20gY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gcmVwbGFjZSBQSU0gdG8gcmVkdWNlIGNvbXBsZXhp dHkgYW5kIGNvbnZlcmdlbmNlIHRpbWVyLCBpdCBjb252ZXJnZXMgdW5pY2FzdCBhbmQgbXVsdGlj YXN0IHByb3RvY29scyBpbnRvIGEgc2luZ2xlIHByb3RvY29sLg0KDQpbVG9ueSBzYWlkXSBodHRw Oi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9yZmMxNTg0ICAgTG9uZyBiZWZvcmUgbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUg cm91dGVyIGNvbXBhbmllcyBpbiB0aGlzIGFsaWFzIGhlcmUgZXZlbiBleGlzdGVkLiBJoa9tIHN1 cmUgSm9obiB3aWxsIGJlIGV4Y2l0ZWQgd2hlbiBoZSBnZXRzIGEgY2FsbCBvbiBOYW50dWNrZXQg Oy0pIDstKSBOb3csIHRob3NlIHdlcmUgdGltZXMgd2hlbiB0aGUgd29ybGQgd2FzIHlvdW5nIGFu ZCB3ZSB3ZXJlbqGvdCBhZnJhaWQgdG8gaGF1bCBzb21lIF9zZXJpb3VzXyBzdGF0ZSBhcm91bmQg aW4gSUdQcyA7LSkgOy0pDQoNCi0tLSB0b255DQo= --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A7E5nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

MOSPF is used for constructing= shortest-path tree using <source,group> as multicast  forwardin= g key. It is similar to PIM-SM.
Bidir-PIM is more popular in data center network, it uses share tree model,= no <source,group> forwarding state and RFC check is required on each= device, so  it  is simpler than PIM-SM or MOSPF. IS-IS extension= can be used to replace bidir-PIM to construct bi-direction distribution tree in data center network.
Thanks

weiguo

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Antoni Przygienda [ant= oni.przygienda@ericsson.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA10=D4=C221=C8=D5 15:50
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Haoweiguo; Alia Atlas; Robert Raszuk
=B3=AD=CB=CD: bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands; Lucy yong; Jeffrey (= Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; Eric Rosen
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Bier] =B4=F0=B8=B4: BIER encapsulation

IS-IS extension similar mechanism can be used to = replace PIM to reduce complexity and convergence timer, it converges unicast and multicast protocols into a single protocol= .

 

serious_ state around in IGPs ;-) ;-)

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F80A7E5nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Oct 22 00:21:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6581A8ADA for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJp-87ptQeBS for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05D0E1A8A99 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNX40639; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:21:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:20:42 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 15:20:36 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABqyAgAFvqkD//4+XgIAAASkAgAAAmQCAAAJ3AIACCH0g Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:20:35 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3DE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: 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boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3DE9NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Xr9Z0uQZnGW_RsqxY9-Z7Gps8p4 Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:21:43 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3DE9NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCkZyb206IHJyYXN6dWtAZ21haWwuY29tIFttYWlsdG86cnJhc3p1a0BnbWFpbC5jb21dIE9u IEJlaGFsZiBPZiBSb2JlcnQgUmFzenVrDQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDIxLCAyMDE0 IDM6NTAgUE0NClRvOiBJSnNicmFuZCBXaWpuYW5kcw0KQ2M6IFh1eGlhb2h1OyBBbGlhIEF0bGFz 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EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:45:44 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Xuxiaohu , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCs0fkxWpw/H0i3zkOxft4ZXZw431wAgAAHbACAAAWIAIAAAs4AgAAGiQCAAD2vAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABquAgADwXACAAA7mgIAAASgAgAAAmQCAAAJ4AIABigCA///J98A= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:45:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C1050@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3DE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3DE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F181C1050eusaamb103ericsso_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+46EfcQg8aXehZLZ+xhsli34QOz xas5d5gtmhY2MVtsPb+K0eLIxUYWBzaPKb83snq0HHnL6rFkyU8mj+tNV9k9dm9cwBTAGsVl k5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8X3Pc7aCHz1MFZO7b7A2MH5oZepi5OSQEDCR2DV1IwuELSZx4d56ti5G Lg4hgaOMEv+797NAOMsZJd6+PMcMUsUmYCFx+dtTMFtEIEui//8cVhCbWaBMYtmzH2wgtrCA 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F991A8BB5 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1WWPage4I9LQ for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x231.google.com (mail-ig0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87E8C1A8AFD for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f177.google.com with SMTP id a13so497045igq.10 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dusPnRSaqMkqDajUMHXDWw5V0eoX8MVLTcAOWeuL5GQ=; b=csI5iRpGo5AvVYgbp6RsvoQWGg9waKn69OpdXPsdOYWr7QLw5CluZQ7f5xTMzjWatk NL3aNlqL1qRrAifXd9dh/XDxkN1uyC4Sjy5HoJOi7x2ucVQDb6DDGkc66RofhRwSc+7n /FHyXJybDK34ke3L5VWbSFtzxWvJjqGQRh5p57VaTzqOIV1wkTLvch+qSywWZWXTKxzM js5iUoA1mi/QMy4Hk5rHb4pBCifIZEZHRCFPveucB/bbs9t5/12+dFMZyEo5GytLA87D GuINYOx+B+09GkZ7qn3Nb3ZGlrcQh4zRsXGi6JTH6INObrCna+60UYwk2r+aSSTmCgED zCqA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.78.16 with SMTP id zk16mr3131922icb.55.1413968261908; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:57:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:57:41 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Fc9DE3tlp8FtstkixffgffslMos Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffba3dff990680505ff239c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/wfqFA97bZCt6rgRJnGD0zz9nVHI Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:57:44 -0000 --e89a8ffba3dff990680505ff239c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Ice, So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday. I understand the point and advantages (zero hardware impact) where you are trying to hash various control plane fields (known today and new in the future) into single key. I buy it. But I am not clear why for that you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) as opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 address) ? Fixed size, exact match, partial support across wide range of network elements of mpls is much more limiting then variable length, longest match, structured and supported by any network element bit string. Both lookups speeds are the same so no advantage there. Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? Please explain - thinking openly - what would break if instead of MPLS label you would use 4 octets lookup to point to internal data structures of BIER enabled device ? And as you can guess there are really nice ways to carry such 4 octets today in the packet header without even adding any new layers :) Best, R. --e89a8ffba3dff990680505ff239c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ice,

So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday.=C2=A0

I understand the point and advanta= ges (zero hardware impact) where you are trying to hash various control pla= ne fields (known today and new in the future) into single key. I buy it.=C2= =A0

But I am not clear why for t= hat you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) as opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 a= ddress) ?=C2=A0

Fixed size, exac= t match, partial support across wide range of network elements of mpls is m= uch more limiting then variable length, longest match, structured and suppo= rted by any network element bit string. Both lookups speeds are the same so= no advantage there.

Are those 1= 2 bits worth the struggle so much ?

Please explain - thinking openly - what would break if instead of MPLS = label you would use 4 octets lookup to point to internal data structures of= BIER enabled device ? And as you can guess there are really nice ways to c= arry such 4 octets today in the packet header without even adding any new l= ayers :)

Best,
R.


--e89a8ffba3dff990680505ff239c-- From nobody Wed Oct 22 03:07:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCCE1A8F4E for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLDWhiOmHINn for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C7D01A8F44 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:07:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1536; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413972452; x=1415182052; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=RykoD1ArYa45Md/RTIlQKX41ZISO0razTyg2c13n9W8=; b=A7m9CNamez0vCp6XBzgABgwndrPD5V5NDEDGfzHQzRmcOncXMjD1tbAz Lgf6YctCu7W0obq0VeiavQsiYYC4swjoUOMC03mrHJmQZT3BbJEKIqTF0 hVVZg4AlRa0gK3n4v1Z+Ufi29H5hDiXwbkdBTV+Ndf5yuv6TZvfxvnRTu s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhkKAFaBR1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABcvTgFAXOaPgKBJAF9hAMBAQMBeQULC0ZXBi6IHQjFdgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEZhiWJUBEBHTMHgy2BHgEEj2aNd4ExkHeEAYIABhiBXDuBPoE8AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,768,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="219831660" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Oct 2014 10:07:30 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9MA7MMi014642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:07:29 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:07:21 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/-wnOqYbNQ7T4JvuiKo5DvfCY4e4 Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:07:35 -0000 Robert, > So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday.=20 >=20 > I understand the point and advantages (zero hardware impact) where you = are trying to hash various control plane fields (known today and new in = the future) into single key. I buy it.=20 Great. > But I am not clear why for that you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) = as opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 address) ?=20 First of all, I did not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and = the MPLS header together, renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to = get upset if you say your solution requires Labels and I just wanted to = show an =91generic=92 encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, = this is all just perception. >=20 > Fixed size, exact match, partial support across wide range of network = elements of mpls is much more limiting then variable length, longest = match, structured and supported by any network element bit string. Both = lookups speeds are the same so no advantage there. >=20 > Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you=92re saying I need = 12 bits more. If you can re-use many features that have been developed = based on 20 bits (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN = context), this is worth the struggle! Now that we agree on the advantages of this =91indirection=92 or =91key=92= forwarding mechanism, do you see why I don=92t like the encapsulation = as presented in draft-xu- ? Thx, Ice.= From nobody Wed Oct 22 03:16:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A168F1A901C for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:16:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N4yxSd52LGWg for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4B511A8F44 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNX62351; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:16:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:15:56 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.18]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:15:50 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DCpX6ld4djEL0yclXdbOkMDp5w4FjEAgAAHbACAAAWJAIAAAs0AgAAGigCAAD2uAIAADhuAgAAigACAAAPtgIAABqyAgAFvqkD//4+XgIAAASkAgAAAmQCAAAJ3AIAAA2GAgAGhwYCAABN3gIAAiATw Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:15:49 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3E4A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper. net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/43bagfFs0WKw5Ev1G7JPRsCnLOs Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:16:11 -0000 Does it require to allocate a dedicated Ethertype code for the combined hea= der (MPLS label+BIER header)? Xiaohu -----Original Message----- From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:07 PM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Xuxiaohu; Alia Atlas; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rose= n Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Robert, > So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday.=20 >=20 > I understand the point and advantages (zero hardware impact) where you ar= e trying to hash various control plane fields (known today and new in the f= uture) into single key. I buy it.=20 Great. > But I am not clear why for that you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) as = opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 address) ?=20 First of all, I did not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and the = MPLS header together, renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to get up= set if you say your solution requires Labels and I just wanted to show an '= generic' encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, this is all just pe= rception. >=20 > Fixed size, exact match, partial support across wide range of network ele= ments of mpls is much more limiting then variable length, longest match, st= ructured and supported by any network element bit string. Both lookups spee= ds are the same so no advantage there. >=20 > Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you're saying I need 12 bit= s more. If you can re-use many features that have been developed based on 2= 0 bits (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN context), this is = worth the struggle! Now that we agree on the advantages of this 'indirection' or 'key' forwardi= ng mechanism, do you see why I don't like the encapsulation as presented in= draft-xu- ? Thx, Ice. From nobody Wed Oct 22 04:04:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C589D1A8BBF for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BUPXEwopH1Pm for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 966131A8AED for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:04:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2139; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413975893; x=1415185493; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uOpRpHKT25jRab19O8ECsvEg5Yp5fQnOv/dCfV62jjI=; b=lPDKxDDpVb6uafhT4MEuBMGjsatgi87d4IcrLdhGck6ZAjM31Xlu/mEM W9SClWf5NZijr8GykFFy9EaJLjW+n6wdo8vXe3M1VWOCkDB6otZyuD1Hu HvoP9vmL8zjiHt80mfBozjR3hlcMYnA0SGLqUL+52eeuTZtEAHlOPS40g k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQQAIOOR1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABchDq4fwUBc5o6AgICgSEBfYQCAQEBAwE6PwUHBAsRBAEBKAdGCQgGExuIHQjFXQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGJYlQEQEdMwcGgyeBHgEEnV2BMZB3hAGCAAYYgVw7L4EPgTwBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,768,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="219883762" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Oct 2014 11:04:51 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9MB4fv9030999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:04:50 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3E4A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:04:40 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39E213FD-FC00-4D7C-8784-B01229BAF83F@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper. net> <56 abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3E4A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/DIMdC7Eh2KLT0IgKqxs4KmUyDao Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:04:55 -0000 Does a (MPLS Label + IPv4/IPv6) require a dedicated Ethertype? Thx, Ice. On 22 Oct 2014, at 12:15, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Does it require to allocate a dedicated Ethertype code for the = combined header (MPLS label+BIER header)? >=20 > Xiaohu >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: IJsbrand Wijnands [mailto:ice@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:07 PM > To: Robert Raszuk > Cc: Xuxiaohu; Alia Atlas; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bier@ietf.org; Eric = Rosen > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation >=20 > Robert, >=20 >> So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday.=20 >>=20 >> I understand the point and advantages (zero hardware impact) where = you are trying to hash various control plane fields (known today and new = in the future) into single key. I buy it.=20 >=20 > Great. >=20 >> But I am not clear why for that you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) = as opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 address) ?=20 >=20 > First of all, I did not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and = the MPLS header together, renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to = get upset if you say your solution requires Labels and I just wanted to = show an 'generic' encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, this is = all just perception. >=20 >>=20 >> Fixed size, exact match, partial support across wide range of network = elements of mpls is much more limiting then variable length, longest = match, structured and supported by any network element bit string. Both = lookups speeds are the same so no advantage there. >>=20 >> Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? >=20 > In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you're saying I need = 12 bits more. If you can re-use many features that have been developed = based on 20 bits (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN = context), this is worth the struggle! >=20 > Now that we agree on the advantages of this 'indirection' or 'key' = forwarding mechanism, do you see why I don't like the encapsulation as = presented in draft-xu- ? >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. From nobody Wed Oct 22 04:19:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE071A8F42 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:19:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEARLxSxYI09 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2FF11A8BBF for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp4.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.66]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id B04ABEA9099DB; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:19:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.48]) by us70uusmtp4.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s9MBJC6H015925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:19:12 -0400 Received: from SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com (135.253.2.38) by US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:19:12 -0400 Received: from SG70XWXCHMBA03.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.2]) by SG70YWXCHHUB04.zap.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.253.2.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:19:10 +0800 From: "S, Somasundaram (Somasundaram)" To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHP7DC2tMbCStKuvUy1OIi1njKLoJw4FjEAgAPRfJiAABNwEA== Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:19:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.253.19.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/5nD3SeHlRhWlCjt1NkjPbypYeDo Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:19:16 -0000 Hi Ice, Can you explain the other factors that were taken in to consideration othe= r than the indirection factor discussed below that prompted to settle down = with this approach? Regards Somasundaram -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IJsbrand Wijnands Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 3:37 PM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Xuxiaohu; bier@ietf.org; Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation Robert, > So I thought about our discussion on and offline yesterday.=20 >=20 > I understand the point and advantages (zero hardware impact) where you ar= e trying to hash various control plane fields (known today and new in the f= uture) into single key. I buy it.=20 Great. > But I am not clear why for that you have choosen 20 bits (mpls label) as = opposed to say 32 bits (ipv4 address) ?=20 First of all, I did not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and the = MPLS header together, renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to get up= set if you say your solution requires Labels and I just wanted to show an '= generic' encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, this is all just pe= rception. >=20 > Fixed size, exact match, partial support across wide range of network ele= ments of mpls is much more limiting then variable length, longest match, st= ructured and supported by any network element bit string. Both lookups spee= ds are the same so no advantage there. >=20 > Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you're saying I need 12 bit= s more. If you can re-use many features that have been developed based on 2= 0 bits (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN context), this is = worth the struggle! Now that we agree on the advantages of this 'indirection' or 'key' forwardi= ng mechanism, do you see why I don't like the encapsulation as presented in= draft-xu- ? Thx, Ice. _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Oct 22 04:55:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0AA1A907B for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7gFvl-_wP6uy for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EB841A9070 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id rl12so3155059iec.23 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=D++vrT2/mY2prtpT8fNS+HpuHYyI6wqQFpDs54BLg9c=; b=t+Ozz2wIZwY8gfkw5x1STiGCmdj6w007wmAAZAT9XzoWhFajcyOTwHome0COC/4yb0 6xa2szAyHMfXm/J3fPOlA65EEYAEMipQosIiHP4G3lqE/HuWrv44u+QIyHaax7Kbvpme xSm9c7zlL17N6Ovjg5DmG5AVfzhkoE29h83gsq8fPI8KIhdZ1NO+QlCcN5eyw9n6Kdmu eqkEoCStyG4ltq0xaHVxaA/o97Uy4T0Vdr0VbpsD2jKKQqF0q4yrdOVTqZXdrSORFyoc WP1mAmRJmV5TCZI82JJo+z8gNKrNOAg03vvaGaz5Cc3ALPs21nptBjJaOO1aoo9c52A8 G9FA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.164.233 with SMTP id yt9mr4919254igb.2.1413978941351; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.208 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:55:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56abb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:55:41 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: K2iuQlmtrb52BCPfd4NkptZMPJ8 Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149beac850fd8050601a06b Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/gFqMjfhDkLOANfelBvCR5-xoK1s Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:55:43 -0000 --089e0149beac850fd8050601a06b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ice, First of all, I did not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and the > MPLS header together, renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to get > upset if you say your solution requires Labels and I just wanted to show = an > =E2=80=98generic=E2=80=99 encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, = this is all just > perception. > =E2=80=8BIt is not only perception. If this is a label you do not need ethertype, but you need to worry about different free label ranges available on each platform for BIER. Just like SR architecture had to waist number of pages on that. =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BIf this is new space then it no longer be behind MPLS ethertype as= it would end up in the lookup into MPLS global table =E2=80=8Bof a given node. > > Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ? > > In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you=E2=80=99re saying I n= eed 12 > bits more. =E2=80=8BI only asked what is the envisioned use for 20 bits. You replied t= hat key will be much smaller without providing any comprehensive comment on the rest of the bits. =E2=80=8B > If you can re-use many features that have been developed based on 20 bits > (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN context), this is worth > the struggle! > =E2=80=8BThis is completely wrong. You are mixing transport layer with appl= ication layer. What FRR has to do with BIER ? Nothing. =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BI highly hope that whatever header you choose to label your BIER p= ackets with will be completely transport agnostic and that it can equally well travel over SR, IPv4, IPv6 or LDP/RSVP-TE MPLS. =E2=80=8BYour and few other comments =E2=80=8Bso far do not indicate transp= ort separation at all. Rather you are inventing new transport which does heavily depends on mpls forwarding and *current* label space. Now that we agree on the advantages of this =E2=80=98indirection=E2=80=99 o= r =E2=80=98key=E2=80=99 > forwarding mechanism, do you see why I don=E2=80=99t like the encapsulati= on as > presented in draft-xu- ? > =E2=80=8BThe draft describes the universal header format. It is not a big p= roblem to add there (maybe not at the front) hashed key if you prove this is useful. But knowing how to hash can equally well be also perform at each BIER node's data plane without need to carry this verbatim in the packets. =E2= =80=8B =E2=80=8BBest, r.=E2=80=8B > > Thx, > > Ice. --089e0149beac850fd8050601a06b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ice,

First of all, I did = not choose 20 bits, I just put the BIER header and the MPLS header together= , renaming Label into a Table ID. People seem to get upset if you say your = solution requires Labels and I just wanted to show an =E2=80=98generic=E2= =80=99 encoding that does not uses Labels, of course, this is all just perc= eption.


=E2=80=8BIt is not only perception.=C2=A0

If this is a label you do not need et= hertype, but you need to worry about different free label ranges available = on each platform for BIER. Just like SR architecture had to waist number of= pages on that. =E2=80=8B

=E2= =80=8BIf this is new space then it no longer be behind MPLS ethertype as it= would end up in the lookup into MPLS global table =E2=80=8Bof a given node= .
=C2=A0
> Are those 12 bits worth the struggle so much ?

In one email you argue 20^2 is way to much, now you=E2=80=99re sayin= g I need 12 bits more.


=E2=80=8BI only asked what is the envisioned use for 20= bits. You replied that key will be much smaller without providing any comp= rehensive comment on the rest of the bits. =E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
If you can re-use many = features that have been developed based on 20 bits (yes, MPLS, like FRR, TE= tunnels, SR Tunnels, VPN context), this is worth the struggle!


=E2=80=8BT= his is completely wrong. You are mixing transport layer with application la= yer. What FRR has to do with BIER ? Nothing. =E2=80=8B

=
=E2=80=8BI highly hope that whatever header you cho= ose to label your BIER packets with will be completely transport agnostic a= nd that it can equally well travel over SR, IPv4, IPv6 or LDP/RSVP-TE MPLS.= =C2=A0

=E2=80=8BYour and few ot= her comments =E2=80=8Bso far do not indicate transport separation at all. R= ather you are inventing new transport which does heavily depends on mpls fo= rwarding and *current* label space.=C2=A0

=
Now that we agree on the advanta= ges of this =E2=80=98indirection=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98key=E2=80=99 forwardi= ng mechanism, do you see why I don=E2=80=99t like the encapsulation as pres= ented in draft-xu- ?

=E2=80=8BThe draft describes the universal header format. It is not a= big problem to add there (maybe not at the front) hashed key if you prove = this is useful.=C2=A0

But knowing how to hash can equally well be also perform at each = BIER node's data plane without need to carry this verbatim in the packe= ts. =E2=80=8B

=E2=80=8BBest,
r.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

Thx,

Ice.

--089e0149beac850fd8050601a06b-- From nobody Wed Oct 22 05:07:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F371A900A for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 05:07:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzX_bFOxK_PW for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DA391A8F3C for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 05:07:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1687; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1413979647; x=1415189247; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SIcfr5761D4kEdj0yCogpr3CWRbsYDEfzHI8BeCipj4=; b=aK3YHExWG29M5nv5FAXPgCAvkjA5mIkEYvv/bLhWR7mS8i8UEvwSEP9M 9bOSZhF3ZqO6sVNrtA0JjuPWfg6jcnOU/5zORxZPlAnfC4cQJkWjO90df JNY/dBCRV381lCAHLpvJpr0G9jzXB/x+gc7eDt71qknOfuyuXftkwAjcQ 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhwKALOdR1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABch0C1fAUBc5o+AoEhAX2EAwEBAwEjVgULCxIIAiYCAkkOBohLCLETlG0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGYEshHmJfzMHgnc2gR4BBI9mjXeBMZB4hAGCAB6BXDuCegEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,768,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="220590354" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Oct 2014 12:07:04 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88110.cisco.com [10.60.202.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9MC6ugw014003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:07:04 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:06:54 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082BFD23@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C105F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C1DE6@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <543FD330.5050002@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C268D@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <8B9C1EE3-0290-41BC-A1D7-798F08672564@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C2FE4@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <18AC5BF7-DEFD-4E98-8847-EBC1C9A3832D@cisco.com> <29118874-6E94-419F-8225-5D5352E09611@cisco.com> <544510C1.9000503@juniper.net> <56a bb0309ed44f2e94b9c0e89767d2c5@BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE082C3797@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <7DA18C54-7C64-4138-85CC-524BD83E474E@cisco.com> <2DD88E45-0CD2-4F5F-8F5B-40D680971358@cisco.com> <7ADF3451-DA3A-45D9-8B6A-CEF9C8A07DD6@cisco.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/HZPpEhAOsNKDF68Nd5wj-ZuMlZU Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:07:29 -0000 Robert, > If this is a label you do not need ethertype, but you need to worry = about different free label ranges available on each platform for BIER. = Just like SR architecture had to waist number of pages on that. =E2=80=8B No! We just allocate a random range from LSD. > This is completely wrong. You are mixing transport layer with = application layer. What FRR has to do with BIER ? Nothing. =E2=80=8B I suggest you think about this statement for a little bit longer. > =E2=80=8BI highly hope that whatever header you choose to label your = BIER packets with will be completely transport agnostic and that it can = equally well travel over SR, IPv4, IPv6 or LDP/RSVP-TE MPLS.=20 Yes. >=20 > =E2=80=8BYour and few other comments =E2=80=8Bso far do not indicate = transport separation at all. Rather you are inventing new transport = which does heavily depends on mpls forwarding and *current* label space.=20= You almost got it, I=E2=80=99m not inventing anything new, I=E2=80=99m = just using MPLS. >=20 > Now that we agree on the advantages of this =E2=80=98indirection=E2=80=99= or =E2=80=98key=E2=80=99 forwarding mechanism, do you see why I don=E2=80= =99t like the encapsulation as presented in draft-xu- ? >=20 > =E2=80=8BThe draft describes the universal header format. It is not a = big problem to add there (maybe not at the front) hashed key if you = prove this is useful.=20 You mean something like MPLS? >=20 > But knowing how to hash can equally well be also perform at each BIER = node's data plane without need to carry this verbatim in the packets. = =E2=80=8B I guess you did not get it. Thx, Ice.= From nobody Wed Oct 22 13:49:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C611A1B3A for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g7tzQa031LdO for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B2B1A1B4F for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id r20so2288633wiv.0 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=IG0oqKCOH1PFLMh4ByOScnxVi7LtSCw4r16qAjmT/MQ=; b=nmqAVE6bqPR3FLj0XBSd0dIcJoK47ie3s4tX3f50eqADYU/3GykVTkQSL8lj4Kcd0R TP6CLKlzilug/vF0NgfhmLbFKpdX/LWyXdM4+Rx4UXjj1w/7U9bkqbvbzONjVl07qf/Z i2hmvHHp8DgMzzZXr8YRWjZk9IL4ipzQuaea/1nXF9PX94VJ5FJIKslJW2NN7q6/PlSj 6ZP6M3Lu/am2dRo2TUWInLgydRFGbJN054pSuULXhsy+uHbAWagwJbK2wjZLlQcxmwSE CO8J1ZbLOydH1QsFsjnB5GK5ltzo0SHDnf7/q72RVT9+g0fSpB354Wn9GsNW+zBjTv/Q +R8A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.216.162 with SMTP id or2mr609356wjc.68.1414010974839; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.20.79 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:49:34 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1b66add299c05060915c1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/nr27C9wTP4yXWWiIvC_iOAPnyNI Subject: [Bier] BoF focus questions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 20:49:39 -0000 --001a11c1b66add299c05060915c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 *, First, thank all of you for joining and contributing to some interesting discussion! This is potentially some exciting new work and the detailed discussions here on the list would indicate that there is community interest already. BUT, to date there is no WG, there is no adoption of this work by any other WG, and we haven't even had our first BoF. Please feel free to continue the bit-fiddling discussions on the other threads, but also please join in in discussing the initial questions we need to address leading into and during the upcoming BoF: What are the problems to be solved? Please look at the current problem statement draft and voice your agreement/disagreement/additions as you see them. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shepherd-bier-problem-statement-00 What are the use cases? There is a draft in the work I understand, but we need input from the broader community about how this work may be able to address other use cases not yet considered. I have received some private email around this issue and in every case asked them to take it to the list. Here's your chance. What is the cost of a new data-plane behavior? The current architecture draft presents a solution which requires a completely new data-plane. This may have a considerably different cost than a solution which can be achieved by simply tweak an existing solution or data-plane. What is the overall impact of a new data-plane solution? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-00 Does this problem warrant a new data-plane behavior? Knowing all the above, do we feel the potential benefits justify the work? Don't hold back. All input is valid. It's best that we begin this discussion right away so that we may more efficiently focus the discussion in Hawaii. I'm looking forward to hearing from you all here, and seeing you in HI. Yes, there will be Bier at the BIER BoF. How couldn't we? Cheers!, Greg --001a11c1b66add299c05060915c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*,

First, thank all of you for jo= ining and contributing to some interesting discussion! This is potentially = some exciting new work and the detailed discussions here on the list would = indicate that there is community interest already.

BUT, = to date there is no WG, there is no adoption of this work by any other WG, = and we haven't even had our first BoF. Please feel free to continue the= bit-fiddling discussions on the other threads, but also please join in in = discussing the initial questions we need to address leading into and during= the upcoming BoF:

What are the problems to be solved?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please look at the current problem st= atement draft and voice your agreement/disagreement/additions as you see th= em.

https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-shepherd-bier-problem-statement-00


What are the use cases?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a draft in the work I understand, but we need= input from the broader community about how this work may be able to addres= s other use cases not yet considered. I have received some private email ar= ound this issue and in every case asked them to take it to the list. Here&#= 39;s your chance.


=

What is the cost of a new dat= a-plane behavior?

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The current architecture draft presents a solution which requires a c= ompletely new data-plane. This may have a considerably different cost than = a solution which can be achieved by simply tweak an existing solution or da= ta-plane. What is the overall impact of a new data-plane solution?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft= -wijnands-bier-architecture-00


Does thi= s problem warrant a new data-plane behavior?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Knowing all the above, do we feel the poten= tial benefits justify the work?


Don't hold = back. All input is valid. It's best that we begin this discussion right= away so that we may more efficiently focus the discussion in Hawaii. I'= ;m looking forward to hearing from you all here, and seeing you in HI. Yes,= there will be Bier at the BIER BoF. How couldn't we?


Cheers!,

Greg





--001a11c1b66add299c05060915c1-- From nobody Sat Oct 25 09:46:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0C81A1A94 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2014 09:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D0N7G3mf7u6P for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2014 09:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F5D71A1A02 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2014 09:46:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2272; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1414255571; x=1415465171; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=4N2XnsjsFRx8q2Cxu/rBAemLtelPInjccpx5xkAD2kk=; b=dgywlxITmOP6cfTV/x8N6DhNo3wCep1aJcBWiUFZWjVVZP+4ZU+gQH1p RDLJn0N6G8zNOx3kKa7QWBcZ5EVcebO0aYlEvJqAmRFnJT1YJlY5x3bhC fU2KHiS4FrH5C8C4nuP3zw+Nii3M84S3rTL7i8HrEVDKz1MfWz4DQecE5 Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AloFACPTS1StJA2J/2dsb2JhbABcgw5UWATNNwqHTQKBBRYBcguEAwEBBAEBATc0GwIBCBIkECcLFwQBBgMCBBMJiDgNyFcBAQEBAQEEAQEBAQEBAQEakQoFgjZTgUIFj2mCHoRIhxKBMTyDDYpahlqDeGwBgUeBAwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,787,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="366398091" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Oct 2014 16:46:10 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com [173.36.12.76]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s9PGkASE026701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:46:10 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.227]) by xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com ([173.36.12.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 25 Oct 2014 11:46:10 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumar-bier-use-cases-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHP8G/n7SUZWMpPg0+JV4CkksLAA5xBFjyA Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:46:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20141025162215.8370.22824.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20141025162215.8370.22824.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 x-originating-ip: [10.21.147.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5EF24B7C80BFBB469E601807172225A9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/_otwkHn0zgsXw_x01EFPzRJSdSk Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumar-bier-use-cases-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:46:12 -0000 Hi, Below is a draft on BiER use cases. Comments welcome. Thanks, Nagendra On 10/25/14, 12:22 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : BIER Use Cases > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > Rajiv Asati > Mach(Guoyi) Chen > Xiaohu Xu > Filename : draft-kumar-bier-use-cases-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2014-10-25 > >Abstract: > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > This document describes some of the use-cases for BIER. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumar-bier-use-cases/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumar-bier-use-cases-00 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >I-D-Announce mailing list >I-D-Announce@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt