From nobody Fri Apr 1 09:44:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E11012D5DD for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sAzdEx84jls6 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4DE912D0CC for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id r187so113084954oih.3 for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=7GXmz5m9zrwVA9ryXIRFFjpSbGn9QoffNB+HaCVD+7w=; b=N7qH9AljfDqDQuRWwPKF3AbcYAnlVM89sFms/HufK0HCLchCFgMYbqGmapyKBGNWQ4 pm0RiR8WiNHcRZXqsiVzN7h8lyVI+MzrC9NhKRAle1oLHn45GTcMqR9/1+OU45Hc++zg yraXK/J3Nu0REjGmYZeFTBcEmYucOw6erqvNmWWHeBatWyc9abOpoBqV6PlAJcICRfiZ i0nwzl2r72CifXuyMiQdmyUvsm0vRbtZwE1R1VlGd35Y7190AX8T3xJC+S1NrGNlT863 sl6EJMzM1eqCwTRk0tiSSeoxxr4rBsfpzWwzUIJB9gPMCJA2cGwx14XU83FOtdKv7EzI 6umQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject :from:to; bh=7GXmz5m9zrwVA9ryXIRFFjpSbGn9QoffNB+HaCVD+7w=; b=ILwVzO1Bx/VlV0lHFZJBm6nq9TLNBU11rKBLYbwCscM4Y19jcKwZCrVxX9IAF6aYz3 2fPTPLscPqjrnwT9eslLSK2SOSD/aED5jbMzEH1VYNWAaolAXpKe+wmH2ER5v3eIYweh lIzlVBQPfeQp0vip0pAczsMIRSdqN31h9Up4Pj2ackDY1T7X4CS8tlu6TvhW5etMAz2U eN5gb8bGShxOFojlaVg09Ko0csQpNdAkabLLWI+n6O8W7ZK5YaH7BzT+e/hS6I3QUEcs dvgmJY9DXdKu/zNFUJ7Ld8pXMunoaRdD160QkvaWhVt4tHtnB2iXvTgxIsK3nyJ2XdbH f5SA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLmBVFrDl9jYE68vbEbpSHAgoc2gEDGUc8ahoU59bBpsm3WCsfjyXAhAwagFbYK3T1CcKKa18CK95d5zg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.157.54.235 with SMTP id s40mr3877609otd.133.1459529052956; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.157.9.136 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 09:44:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e2cf8bdfbb5052f6f16a7 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG Agenda, IETF 95 Buenos Aires, Argentina X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 16:44:15 -0000 --001a113e2cf8bdfbb5052f6f16a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Preliminary agenda below. Please review and send me any updates or corrections. Thanks, Chairs -----agenda---- BIER WG Agenda IETF 95, Buenos Aires, Argentina Wed, April 6th, 1400-1600 Quebracho B Agenda bash / Notewell 5min Chairs draft-mirsky-bier-pmmm-00 10min Greg Mirsky draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-02 10min Tony P draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-02 10min Tony P draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 10min Linda Wang draft-hao-bier-active-active-00 10min Weiguo Hao draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-03 10min Ran Chen draft-zhang-bier-path-autogeneration-01 Sandy Zhang draft-zhang-bier-te-yang-01 15min Sandy Zhang draft-chenvgovindan-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-00 10min Ran Chen draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-gap-analysis-00 5min Greg Mirsky --001a113e2cf8bdfbb5052f6f16a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Preliminary agenda below. Please review and send me any up= dates or corrections.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Chairs

-----agenda----

BIER WG Agenda


IETF 95, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Wed, April 6th, 1400-1600

Quebracho B


Agenda bash / Notew= ell =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05min =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chairs

draft-mirsky-bier-pmmm-00 10min Greg Mirsky

draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-02 10min Tony P

draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-02 10min Tony P

draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 10min = Linda Wang=C2=A0

draft-hao-bier-active-active-00 10min Weiguo Hao

draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-03 10min <= /span>Ran Chen

draft-zhang-bier-path-autogeneration-01 Sandy Zhang

draft-zhang-bier-te-yang-01 15min <= /span>Sandy Zhang

draft-chenvgovindan-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-00 10min Ran Chen=C2=A0

draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-gap-analysis-00 5min Greg Mirsky

--001a113e2cf8bdfbb5052f6f16a7-- From nobody Sun Apr 3 23:53:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC7912D0BB; Sun, 3 Apr 2016 23:53:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.18.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160404065330.9775.17896.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 23:53:30 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-problem-statement-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 06:53:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (BIER) Problem Statement Authors : Greg Shepherd Andrew Dolganow Arkadiy Gulko Filename : draft-ietf-bier-problem-statement-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2016-04-03 Abstract: There is a need to simplify network operations for multicast services. Current solutions require a tree-building control plane to build and maintain end-to-end tree state per flow, impacting router state capacity and network convergence times. Multi-point tree building protocols are often considered complex to deploy and debug and may include mechanics from legacy use-cases and/or assumptions which no longer apply to the current use-cases. When multicast services are transiting a provider network through an overlay, the core network has a choice to either aggregate customer state into a minimum set of core states resulting in flooding traffic to unwanted network end-points, or to map per-customer, per-flow tree state directly into the provider core state amplifying the network-wide state problem. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-problem-statement/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-problem-statement-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Apr 4 11:53:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1675E12D0A7 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mH_QXXqt49lV for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D0412D10B for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id y204so63363867oie.3 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=aZj3teCHEHKYETTaABmswuVbvxtAkTFOrjzL/isW2UM=; b=sYnkEue+YgAgQM6I4LriKk5+4w9VX2D9adF93qbUV4/KXJVfbLGI70SCaNmj0FMJV5 N7bPCjDcQ9GFqFcfS8WCdshSQErwhkCgK53G7ZXFdhSDTeI4aP0KQsGWh9ysSVdbCFSG ZfH1Mln2oUhcenrpp1LHMple0M53ZOxwv1Cu3zLtoOHlkXvxYA0py13ca71vLioFLqYm mjpgP8anVo6xFQBlr56Mv6wYan/eF6pHwE0x0krSE/XXut8M8UIiMZhnXYRqtk2dkZr9 2fScfbKZ2PQ7Kub7p0Fb2BV5WIKlif5V48J9N4gYVm2MmXetE81I4hV6h30lqsB6eEOI IWJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject :from:to; bh=aZj3teCHEHKYETTaABmswuVbvxtAkTFOrjzL/isW2UM=; b=FQ5smAasWzOMkFX3xBAyD5s2qEuC1npt2aAp/bWgQ1BSiztXJFWSir9q4vN/mnAqEI o+4GjcVxw/G28iGgL2dqF8zcXswS5z+DhALjZ5WEi3I35QjPUlmXe06soZupgqwDyO0c 0VUr+HMas8YM4FciwdaqGx/66wsTBP0nCpPNvSW7PIYD/PWuJ1Dk/FHS1FGlGDww8xw8 ObnDcF8MnViiy/9QpH+xV175/z5WkbXa7+3Kepm8imZmYenVmvKSJBPcBTHn33236OmB 8yG8UeLhHaOpQxYU0FjX/57K4e6iHY8u40QzJjOMjDa7nGRNZB/mLXn7fMdVkikGWDVp RJ/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJgEkMEwV956l/b29AeUXBkUdOjONPrd2/SISTy8j2c804NI9YdPcAeX6poen8ikhrJYlAg+xBWjQU6cg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.234.135 with SMTP id i129mr10766948oih.10.1459795981125; Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.157.9.136 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d395ee650aa052fad3c96 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] WG Meeting SLIDES. X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 18:53:03 -0000 --001a113d395ee650aa052fad3c96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Two days from our WG meeting and less than have of the slides have been submitted. Please send them ASAP. You know who you are. :-) Cheers, Greg --001a113d395ee650aa052fad3c96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Two days from our WG meeting and less than have of the slides have been submitted. Please send them ASAP. You know who you are. :-)

Cheers,
Greg
--001a113d395ee650aa052fad3c96-- From nobody Mon Apr 4 13:09:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2675D12D84B; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tvIqW5OuejUy; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ECF212D867; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 13:09:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79fa6d0000057a9-4e-5702c9bdda88 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EB.E0.22441.DB9C2075; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:08:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:09:06 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "nvo3@ietf.org" , "rtg-ooam-dt@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments to OOAM Requirements draft from Ron Bonica Thread-Index: AdGOoAAttrV3Hsn3QLugH0bP01WoGA== Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:09:06 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuO6+k0zhBjsWcVksnbGHyeLpfEmL A98dLP617mW1uPDmN7PFkwdb2R3YPJYs+cnkcb3pKnsAUxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRtvmdpaC niamiq0vz7I0MJ74wdjFyMkhIWAi0Xz+DAuELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgaOMEt87FzBBOMsYJf5+ 2sMEUsUmYCTxYmMPO0hCROAAo8SKvavYQBLMAvoSb5t/go0SFrCRuLW6FaxBRMBRYvK2s4wQ tp7Ej8sv2EFsFgEViS1n3wLZHBy8Ar4SK76ng4QZga74fmoNE8RIcYlbT+YzQVwnIvHw4mk2 CFtU4uXjf6wQtpLEnNfXmCHqMyWmdD8Dq+EVEJQ4OfMJywRG4VlIRs1CUjYLSRlEPF/i9oLV zBC2jsSC3Z/YIGxtiWULXzPD2GcOPGZCFecAssMk5myMhAh7SLy+8J9xFjCEmAUuM0q8//ET ao4i0N6H7AsYeVYxcpQWF+TkphsZbmIExvExCTbHHYx7ez0PMQpwMCrx8C44xRguxJpYVlyZ e4hRBaj10YbVFxilWPLy81KVRHh3H2UKF+JNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsQozcGiJM7rHfkvTEgg PbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cBoEiPA/jm4Xz321Meu2p06d94w39988UqWau6/S7pzHRmEPdSn KRq5SV+YeSt4vYxdveODhJxjDbtFdxSm/5ZsMXlQyrWh5cAi3kWHl1rH1PUe6JqfftF66c10 9aS1Ozeqeh08dojH0+lr/UunmU1RZ/vk50Rsf+V/5tz07XJyDckqKwxXC21RYinOSDTUYi4q TgQAy/ZBD+sCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "rbonica@juniper.net" Subject: [Bier] Comments to OOAM Requirements draft from Ron Bonica X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 20:09:12 -0000 --_004_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_" --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, Ron reviewed the Overlay OAM Requirements draft and shared his comments under RB> = tag. The attached copy has my responses in under GIM> tag as well. We invit= e members of BIER, NVO3, SCC and RTG WGs to join in the discussion. Appreci= ate you review, comments on OOAM Requirements draft and OAM for Overlay Net= works: Gap Analysis. Regards, Greg --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

Ron reviewed the Overlay OAM Requirements draft and shared his comments under RB> tag= . The attached copy has my responses in under GIM> tag as well. We invit= e members of BIER, NVO3, SCC and RTG WGs to join in the discussion. Appreci= ate you review, comments on OOAM Requirements draft and OAM for Overlay Networks: Gap Analysis.

 

        &nbs= p;       Regards,

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;          Greg=

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ICAgICAgICAgICAgW1BhZ2UgMTBdDQoNCg== --_004_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3CB8Feusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 07:37:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7045112D552 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6xOwfAXFvwRq for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) 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Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:37:13 -0000 --001a1141f262c291db052fbdc7ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable after reading a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in sync b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync when describing instead of repeating c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of the broadcast ? d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't invent a new one e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a1141f262c291db052fbdc7ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
after reading=C2=A0

a) first nibble: re= fer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in sync=C2=A0
b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync = when describing instead of repeating=C2=A0
c) you need to describ= e which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially on broadcast media, i.e.= is it always p2p or can you take advantage of the broadcast ?
d)= Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't inv= ent a new one=C2=A0
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE= ? As far I understand, not a trivial process albeit we have several liaison= s with IEEE=C2=A0

--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys a= t a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now,= thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Rober= t Wilensky
--001a1141f262c291db052fbdc7ba-- From nobody Tue Apr 5 15:05:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF9A12D9C4 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 15:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EHVwuaMZTO6j for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 292A012D9BB for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLP83372; Tue, 05 Apr 2016 22:04:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:04:53 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 06:04:42 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Tony Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 Thread-Index: AQHRj0iwC+h07FhTAU265RzvPaanmZ977Z4U Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 22:04:42 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D537CE8@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.196.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D537CE8NKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.57043687.003E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 50cd769970e68a25b9b74006603f0d88 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 22:05:00 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D537CE8NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW4gZmFjdCwgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBkcmFmdCAoaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L2RyYWZ0LXh1LWJpZXItZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbi0wMykgaGFzIGFscmVhZHkgcHJvcG9zZWQgYSB0 cmFuc3BvcnQtaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgQklFUiBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGhlYWRlciB3aGljaCBpcyBh cHBsaWNhYmxlIGluIGFueSBraW5kIG9mIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBuZXR3b3Jrcy4gSW4gb3RoZXIgd29y ZHMsIHRoZSBCSUVSLWluLU1BQyBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGhhcyBiZWVuIGNvdmVyZWQgaW4gdGhl IGFib3ZlIGRyYWZ0Lg0KDQoNCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpYaWFvaHUNCg0KX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCg0Kt6K8/sjLOiBCSUVSIFtiaWVyLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0 Zi5vcmddILT6se0gVG9ueSBQcnp5Z2llbmRhIFt0b255c2lldGZAZ21haWwuY29tXQ0Kt6LLzcqx vOQ6IDIwMTbE6jTUwjXI1SAyMjozNg0KytW8/sjLOiBiaWVyQGlldGYub3JnDQrW98ziOiBbQmll cl0gY29tbWVudHMgb24gZHJhZnQtd2FuZy1iaWVyLWV0aGVybmV0LTAxDQoNCmFmdGVyIHJlYWRp bmcNCg0KYSkgZmlyc3QgbmliYmxlOiByZWZlciB0byBNUExTIGVuY2FwcyBhcyAidGhlIHNhbWUg dmFsdWUiIHRvIGtlZXAgaW4gc3luYw0KYikgcmVmZXIgdG8gYWxsIG90aGVyIHBvc3NpYmxlIGZp ZWxkcyB0byBNUExTIGVuY2FwcyB0byBrZWVwIGluIHN5bmMgd2hlbiBkZXNjcmliaW5nIGluc3Rl YWQgb2YgcmVwZWF0aW5nDQpjKSB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBkZXNjcmliZSB3aGljaCBraW5kIG9mIGV0 aGVyIE1BQ3MgYXJlIGFsbG93ZWQsIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgb24gYnJvYWRjYXN0IG1lZGlhLCBpLmUu IGlzIGl0IGFsd2F5cyBwMnAgb3IgY2FuIHlvdSB0YWtlIGFkdmFudGFnZSBvZiB0aGUgYnJvYWRj YXN0ID8NCmQpIEZpZ3VyZSA0OiB1c2UgdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS9NUExTIGVuY29kaW5nIGZv ciB0aGUgbGVuZ3RoLCBkb24ndCBpbnZlbnQgYSBuZXcgb25lDQplKSB3aG8gd2lsbCBvYnRhaW4g YSBuZXcgZXRoZXIgdHlwZSBmcm9tIElFRUU/IEFzIGZhciBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQsIG5vdCBhIHRy aXZpYWwgcHJvY2VzcyBhbGJlaXQgd2UgaGF2ZSBzZXZlcmFsIGxpYWlzb25zIHdpdGggSUVFRQ0K DQotLQ0KV2Whr3ZlIGhlYXJkIHRoYXQgYSBtaWxsaW9uIG1vbmtleXMgYXQgYSBtaWxsaW9uIGtl eWJvYXJkcyBjb3VsZCBwcm9kdWNlIHRoZSBjb21wbGV0ZSB3b3JrcyBvZiBTaGFrZXNwZWFyZTsg bm93LCB0aGFua3MgdG8gdGhlIEludGVybmV0LCB3ZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHRydWUuDQqh qlJvYmVydCBXaWxlbnNreQ0K --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D537CE8NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In fact, the following draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu= -bier-encapsulation-03) has already proposed a transport-independent BI= ER encapsulation header which is applicable in any kind of transport networks. In other words, the BIER-in-MAC encapsu= lation has been covered in the above draft.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER [bier-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Tony Przygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA4=D4=C25=C8=D5 22:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bier@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01

after reading 

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync 
b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating 
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't = invent a new one 
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE 

--
We=A1= =AFve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true.
= =A1=AARobert Wilensky
--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D537CE8NKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Apr 6 11:19:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5777612D18B; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:19:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TZfJnvGnbdBr; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E63F12D70A; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79216d00000767f-4f-57054d027d44 Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 66.B1.30335.20D45075; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:53:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 14:19:36 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: YANGvalidator output of draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-03 Thread-Index: AdGQMJObP7QjDtiPSImHVT4+1SG68g== Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 18:19:36 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPny6zL2u4wYk2FoulM/YwWWx7Mo3V gcljyZKfTAGMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZW2bLFLxRqfh/6TlzA+NrhS5GTg4JAROJBa/uMEHY YhIX7q1n62Lk4hASOMoosWXFXShnGaPE6+YL7CBVbAJGEi829oDZIgLeElNmPWEDsZkFtCSm r93MAmILC9hITO5ZxwhR4yhxYecmqHo9iamL7oLFWQRUJD403gLbzCvgK3Fr5lJWEJsR6Irv p9YwQcwUl7j1ZD7UdQISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmErSXz8PZ8doj5fYlL/FWaImYISJ2c+YZnA KDwLyahZSMpmISmDiOtILNj9iQ3C1pZYtvA1M4x95sBjJmTxBYzsqxg5SosLcnLTjQw2MQJj 45gEm+4OxvvTPQ8xCnAwKvHwJpiyhAuxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4d3gyhouxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sa k1p8iFGag0VJnLcx+F+YkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgXGKOLMhn86za8b2U3bVcimfnbMy xF+UoeGe9iejS9u/pV28PZVPl/PmbZnQz+fPJDg8Nf5a67l/1dd7H98+WP6Yc/+5SaY/ZQT+ BewK4pw++77ethtvWhSSJ19/vvhI2jRDe4Nn7OteCT47lHOoXqtNj1WB4x3voy3nhdbYTcz+ n/vn+1ut1Dx3JZbijERDLeai4kQAYNZgIokCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: [Bier] YANGvalidator output of draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 18:19:44 -0000 --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Authors, et. al, I've briefly checked the YANG model by YANGvalidator. The model is extracte= d properly but validation fails with the following: ietf-bier.yang:15: error: module "ietf-mpls" not found in search path ietf-bier.yang:19: error: module "ietf-isis" not found in search path ietf-bier.yang:23: error: module "ietf-ospf" not found in search path Hope this helps. Regards, Greg --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Authors, et. al,

I’ve briefly checked the YANG model by YANGval= idator. The model is extracted properly but validation fails with the follo= wing:

 

ietf-bier.yang:15: error: module "ietf-mpls"= not found in search path

ietf-bier.yang:19: error: module "ietf-isis"= not found in search path

ietf-bier.yang:23: error: module "ietf-ospf"= not found in search path

Hope this helps.

 

        &nbs= p;       Regards,

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;          Greg=

--_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Wed Apr 6 12:16:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6793C12D52F; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I-dBZVcgD59A; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3148012D13D; Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id A2ED99A4C35B9; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:10:02 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id F18B72C022AFA; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:15:53 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id u36JFoCj008927; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:15:50 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3E784@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> To: Gregory Mirsky MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 68039922:5F7F6381-48257F8D:0069133C; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 03:15:51 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2016-04-07 03:15:30, Serialize complete at 2016-04-07 03:15:30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0069BCD148257F8D_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn u36JFoCj008927 Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@ietf.org" , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] YANGvalidator output of draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 19:16:00 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0069BCD148257F8D_= Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:44:37 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: YANG doctors @ IETF Thread-Index: AdGQTRaW1gpr0g5hSyy+BwFe5TrKKQ== Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:44:35 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn658M2u4QesUC4ulM/YwOTB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr49KbjIJ1UhVnly1gbmDcIt7FyMkhIWAiMX/lHRYIW0ziwr31 bF2MXBxCAkcZJdYsncUM4SxjlFi+5QVYFZuAkcSLjT3sILaIgJbEzkebgIo4OIQFZCR+rSiB CCtKTJxznAXC1pNY3HKVFcRmEVCROD7rMpjNK+ArsXPrWmYQmxFo8fdTa5hAbGYBcYlbT+Yz QRwkILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wQtpLEx9/z2SHq8yUWPpjGCDFTUOLkzCcsExiFZiEZNQtJ2Swk ZRBxHYkFuz+xQdjaEssWvmaGsc8ceMyELL6AkX0VI0dpcUFObrqR4SZGYNgfk2Bz3MG4t9fz EKMAB6MSD++CXJZwIdbEsuLK3EOMEhzMSiK8SnWs4UK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYpTlYlMR5 vSP/hQkJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoY1983d1YPfvK0ZtnPcysc9h1a+0Z86zwNVt/OV3F2 73bff5dTuPJnYDrvAun1klP/GkppnvUWnff014snzRkrCvW6tNbbTp09W9IpIVJVMtzvwuS0 clOrk+y3Nq3Z+LGs+sUWmz6d5u5Z1ssCzJY7TD+91CBzWZvStlZD7w0bfxuwK15bNSmkUIml OCPRUIu5qDgRABwpMQN3AgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] YANG doctors @ IETF X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:44:40 -0000 --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, YANG doctors can be reached by email via yang-doctors@ietf.org. Their home page https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/yang-doctors.html ha= s the list of esteemed doctors and links to invaluable resources. Regards, Greg --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

YANG doctors can be reached by email via yang-doctors@ietf.org.

Their home page https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/yang-doctors.html  has the l= ist of esteemed doctors and links to invaluable resources.

 

        &nbs= p;       Regards,

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;          Greg=

--_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 09:34:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F335212D1CF; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:34:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7AKoaQ1nCYU3; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4481112D50A; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 326B6D26594DA; 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Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:46:57 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:46:56 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:46:56 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" , Gregory Mirsky , "yang-doctors@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] YANG doctors @ IETF Thread-Index: AdGQTRaW1gpr0g5hSyy+BwFe5TrKKQAyCYqA///AdIA= Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:46:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A3EB21@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.241.253] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D32C06DE13AA35rrahmanciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] YANG doctors @ IETF X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 16:47:01 -0000 --_000_D32C06DE13AA35rrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBiZWxpZXZlIHJpZ2h0IG5vdyB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byB1cGxvYWQgdGhlIGRlcGVuZGVudCBZQU5H IG1vZHVsZXMgYWxzbyBieSB1c2luZyChsFVwbG9hZCBtdWx0aXBsZSBZQU5HIGZpbGVzIG9yIGEg emlwIGFyY2hpdmUiDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpSZXNoYWQuDQoNCkZyb206IEJJRVIgPGJpZXItYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPj4gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9m ICJodS5mYW5nd2VpQHp0ZS5jb20uY248bWFpbHRvOmh1LmZhbmd3ZWlAenRlLmNvbS5jbj4iIDxo dS5mYW5nd2VpQHp0ZS5jb20uY248bWFpbHRvOmh1LmZhbmd3ZWlAenRlLmNvbS5jbj4+DQpEYXRl OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgQXByaWwgNywgMjAxNiBhdCAxMjozNCBQTQ0KVG86IEdyZWdvcnkgTWlyc2t5 IDxncmVnb3J5Lm1pcnNreUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb208bWFpbHRvOmdyZWdvcnkubWlyc2t5QGVyaWNz c29uLmNvbT4+LCAieWFuZy1kb2N0b3JzQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzp5YW5nLWRvY3RvcnNAaWV0 Zi5vcmc+IiA8eWFuZy1kb2N0b3JzQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzp5YW5nLWRvY3RvcnNAaWV0Zi5v cmc+Pg0KQ2M6ICJCSUVSIChiaWVyQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpiaWVyQGlldGYub3JnPikiIDxi aWVyQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpiaWVyQGlldGYub3JnPj4sIEJJRVIgPGJpZXItYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPj4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbQmll cl0gWUFORyBkb2N0b3JzIEAgSUVURg0KDQpIaSwgR3JlZ29yeQ0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIg cmVtaW5kaW5nLg0KDQp0byBZQU5HIGRvYyB0ZWFtOg0KDQpXZaGvdmUgIGNoZWNrZWQgdGhlIFlB TkcgbW9kZWwgYnkgWUFOR3ZhbGlkYXRvci4gIFRoZSBtb2RlbCBmYWlscyB3aXRoIHRoZSBmb2xs b3dpbmcgZXJyb3JzOg0KDQppZXRmLWJpZXIueWFuZzoxNTogZXJyb3I6IG1vZHVsZSAiaWV0Zi1t cGxzIiBub3QgZm91bmQgaW4gc2VhcmNoIHBhdGgNCmlldGYtYmllci55YW5nOjE5OiBlcnJvcjog bW9kdWxlICJpZXRmLWlzaXMiIG5vdCBmb3VuZCBpbiBzZWFyY2ggcGF0aA0KaWV0Zi1iaWVyLnlh bmc6MjM6IGVycm9yOiBtb2R1bGUgImlldGYtb3NwZiIgbm90IGZvdW5kIGluIHNlYXJjaCBwYXRo DQoNCldlIGRvIG5vdCBrbm93IGhvdyB0byBjb3JyZWN0IGl0LCAgd291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSBo ZWxwIHVzIHRvIGZpeCB0aGVtPw0KVGhhbmtzIQ0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLg0KRmFuZ3dlaS4NCg0KDQoN CkdyZWdvcnkgTWlyc2t5IDxncmVnb3J5Lm1pcnNreUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb208bWFpbHRvOmdyZWdv cnkubWlyc2t5QGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4+DQq3orz+yMs6ICAiQklFUiIgPGJpZXItYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPj4NCg0KMjAxNi0wNC0wNyAwNTo0 NA0KDQoNCsrVvP7Iyw0KICAgICAgICAiQklFUiAoYmllckBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86YmllckBp ZXRmLm9yZz4pIiA8YmllckBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86YmllckBpZXRmLm9yZz4+LA0Ks63LzQ0K DQrW98ziDQogICAgICAgIFtCaWVyXSBZQU5HIGRvY3RvcnMgQCBJRVRGDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoN Cg0KRGVhciBBbGwsDQoNCllBTkcgZG9jdG9ycyBjYW4gYmUgcmVhY2hlZCBieSBlbWFpbCB2aWEg IHlhbmctZG9jdG9yc0BpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86eWFuZy1kb2N0b3JzQGlldGYub3JnPi4NCg0K VGhlaXIgaG9tZSBwYWdlICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pZXNnL2RpcmVjdG9yYXRlL3lh bmctZG9jdG9ycy5odG1sPGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2llc2cvZGlyZWN0b3JhdGUveWFu Zy1kb2N0b3JzLmh0bWw+ICBoYXMgdGhlIGxpc3Qgb2YgZXN0ZWVtZWQgZG9jdG9ycyBhbmQgbGlu a3MgdG8gaW52YWx1YWJsZSByZXNvdXJjZXMuDQoNCg0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgUmVnYXJk cywNCg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBHcmVnDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KQklFUiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkJJ RVJAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOkJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JpZXINCg0K --_000_D32C06DE13AA35rrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-ID: <42656C063F87354E887CF2D99F75E4B5@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe right now you need to upload the dependent YANG modules also= by using =A1=B0Upload = multiple YANG files or a zip archive"

Regards,
Reshad.

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
Date: Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 12= :34 PM
To: Gregory Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com>, &qu= ot;yang-doctors@ietf.org"= <yang-doctors@ietf.org>=
Cc: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" <bier@ietf.org>, BIER <b= ier-bounces@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] YANG doctors @ = IETF

Hi, Gregory

Thanks for your reminding.

to YANG doc team:

We=A1=AFve  checked the YANG model b= y YANGvalidator.  The model fails with the following errors:
ietf-bier.yang:15: e= rror: module "ietf-mpls" not found in search path
ietf-bier.yang:19: error: module "ietf-isis" not found in search = path
ietf-bier.yang:23: error: module "ietf-ospf" not found in search = path

We do not know how to correct it, &nbs= p;would you please help us to fix them?  
Thanks!

Regards.
Fangwei.



Gregory Mirsky &l= t;gregory.mirsky@ericsson.co= m>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "BIER&q= uot; <bier-bounces@ietf.org= >

2016-04-07 05:44

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
 "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" <bi= er@ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD
=D6=F7=CC=E2
 [Bier] YANG doctors @ IETF<= /td>






Dear All,

YANG doctors can be reached by email via <= a href=3D"mailto:yang-doctors@ietf.org"> yang-doctors@ietf.org.

Their home page  https://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate/yang-doctors.html  has the list of esteemed doctors and links to invaluable resources.

 

         =        Regards,

         =             &nb= sp;          Greg =
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of= network protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation heade= r (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload t= ype" field? wouldn't it  be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e., the lack of a protocol= field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?

 

By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it= means the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it seem= s that the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH= draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be mis-interpreted as IP header.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER [bier-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Tony Przygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA4=D4=C25=C8=D5 22:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bier@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01

after reading 

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync 
b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating 
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't = invent a new one 
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE 

--
We=A1= =AFve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true.
= =A1=AARobert Wilensky
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08 Apr 2016 18:24:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-019.cisco.com (xch-rtp-019.cisco.com [64.101.220.159]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u38IOxr1010852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 8 Apr 2016 18:24:59 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-019.cisco.com (64.101.220.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:24:58 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 14:24:58 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Xiaohu Xu Thread-Topic: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRkPR7Ow6l9wh8WUKpFJXl+MwAqJ+AqQ4A Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 18:24:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.247.9] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_96308AB7-A1EC-47DF-AA5E-35FBEE6ACEE6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:11:12 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 18:25:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_96308AB7-A1EC-47DF-AA5E-35FBEE6ACEE6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BB41A064-4BB5-4219-94E9-B998B9A81CC1" --Apple-Mail=_BB41A064-4BB5-4219-94E9-B998B9A81CC1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Xiaohu, Tony, Please see inline. > On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >=20 > As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle = of network protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation = header (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload = type" field? Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirst = nibble=E2=80=9D is _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. = Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC = 4928. The relevant text is: First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are set to 0101; this ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header or with the header of a pseudowire packet. Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6" > wouldn't it be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem = (i.e., the lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS = header itself? >=20 Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80=9D = needed. > By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, = it means the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it = seems that the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current = NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be = mis-interpreted as IP header. >=20 >=20 There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a number = of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D = transport-independent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH = draft does not even include the term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it = does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a = transport-agnostic way. One more comment below. > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org = ] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Tony Przygienda = [tonysietf@gmail.com ] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2016=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 = 22:36 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bier@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 >=20 > after reading >=20 > a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in = sync One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text at = draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03 Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an IP = packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the = First Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions = of 0 and 1, referencing that RFC (see = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5). Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at = http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/ = ? Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at: It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync = when describing instead of repeating > c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, = especially on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take = advantage of the broadcast ? > d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't = invent a new one > e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, = not a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE >=20 > -- > We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards = could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the = Internet, we know that is not true. > =E2=80=95Robert Wilensky > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls = --Apple-Mail=_BB41A064-4BB5-4219-94E9-B998B9A81CC1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On = Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>= wrote:

As for the = first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of network = protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation header = (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" = field?

Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section = 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirst nibble=E2=80=9D is _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS = payload type=E2=80=9D. Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasing = mechanism, much like RFC 4928. 

The relevant text is:
     First nibble: The first 4 bits of the = header are set to 0101; this
   ensures = that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header
   or with the header of a pseudowire = packet.

Which = says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6"
wouldn't = it  be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem = (i.e., the lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS = header itself?

 


Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no = =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80=9D needed.

By the way, = since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the = NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that = the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH = draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be = mis-interpreted as IP header.

 



There seems to be some massive confusion on this = paragraph, on a number of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to = be=E2=80=9D transport-independent. It is by charter and by design. = Second, the NSH draft does not even include the term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D= , because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be = used in a transport-agnostic way.

One = more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Tony Przygienda = [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2016=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97= =A5 22:36
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bier@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Bier] comments on = draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01

after = reading 

a) = first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in = sync 

One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80= =9D text at draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to = prevent aliasing with an IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify = values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the First Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80= =9D IP protocol versions of 0 and 1, referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).
<= br class=3D"">
Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/ ?

Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED= =E2=80=9D at:

  =  It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon = in-order
   packet delivery restrict the = first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.


b) refer to all = other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync when describing = instead of repeating 
c) you need to describe = which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially on broadcast media, = i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of the broadcast = ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding = for the length, don't invent a new one 
e) who = will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not a = trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with = IEEE 

-- 
We=E2=80=99ve heard = that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete = works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not = true.
=E2=80=95Robert Wilensky
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing = list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carlos and all, Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S= T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181= 9, but the IANA assignment still holds. Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST? Thumb typed on my cellphone Regards, Sasha -------- Original Message -------- From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300 To: Xiaohu Xu CC: mpls@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Tony Przygienda" Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati= on Xiaohu, Tony, Please see inline. On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu > wrote: As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of ne= twork protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation header (= which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" field? Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the "first nibble" is _not_= used as an "MPLS payload type". Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasi= ng mechanism, much like RFC 4928. The relevant text is: First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are set to 0101; this ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header or with the header of a pseudowire packet. Which says "... will not be confused with ..." wouldn't it be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e., t= he lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself? Who says it is a *problem*? There's no "fixing" needed. By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it me= ans the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems t= hat the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH draft. = As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be mis-interpret= ed as IP header. There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a number of = levels. First, NSH is not "claimed to be" transport-independent. It is by c= harter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even include the term = "MPLS", because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be= used in a transport-agnostic way. One more comment below. Best regards, Xiaohu ________________________________ ???: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] ?? Tony Prz= ygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com] ????: 2016?4?5? 22:36 ???: bier@ietf.org ??: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 after reading a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in sync One comment regarding the "First nibble" text at draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encap= sulation-03 Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an IP pa= cket, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the First = Nibble, it had to "Reserve" IP protocol versions of 0 and 1, referencing th= at RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5). Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-= numbers/ ? Note that RFC 4928 says "REQUIRED" at: It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. Thanks, - Carlos. b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync when d= escribing instead of repeating c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially on= broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of the br= oadcast ? d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't inven= t a new one e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not a t= rivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE -- We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true. ?Robert Wilensky _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls --_000_mc51yrrf9n0wxbjsrprt9amf1460143890063emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Carlos and all,=0A=
Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S=
T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181=
9, but the IANA =0A=
assignment still holds.=0A=
=0A=
Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST?=0A=
Thumb typed on my cellphone=0A=
Regards,=0A=
Sasha=0A=
=0A=
-------- Original Message --------=0A=
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>=0A=
Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300=0A=
To: Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=0A=
CC: mpls@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Tony Przygienda&q=
uot; <tonysietf@gmail.com>=0A=
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati=
on=0A=
=0A=
Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

As for the firs= t nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of network protocol = stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation header (which could be = an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" field?

Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the “first = nibble” is _not_ used as an “MPLS payload type”. Instead,= the text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928. 

The relevant text is:
     First nibble: The first 4 bits of the h= eader are set to 0101; this
   ensures that the BIER header will not be confu= sed with an IP header
   or with the header of a pseudowire packet.

Which says “… will not be confused with …= "

wouldn't it&nbs= p; be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e., t= he lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?<= /div>

 


Who says it is a *problem*? There’s no “fixing” need= ed.

By the way, sin= ce it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the NSH sho= uld be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that the first n= ibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the = NSH may be mis-interpreted as IP header.

 



There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a numbe= r of levels. First, NSH is not “claimed to be” transport-indepe= ndent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even = include the term “MPLS”, because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a transport-agnost= ic way.

One more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

 

发件人: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 = Tony Przygienda [tonysiet= f@gmail.com]
发送时间: 2016年4月5日 22:36
收件人: bier@ietf.or= g
主题:&n= bsp;[Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01

after reading 

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same val= ue" to keep in sync 

One comment regarding the “First nibble” text at draf= t-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an = IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the F= irst Nibble, it had to “Reserve” IP protocol versions of 0 and = 1, referencing that RFC (see https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).

Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at http://www.iana.org/assignments/v= ersion-numbers/ ?

Note that RFC 4928 says “REQUIRED” at:

   It is REQUIRED, however, that applications dep= end upon in-order
   packet delivery restrict the first nibble valu= es to 0x0 and 0x1.

Thanks,

— Carlos.


b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to kee= p in sync when describing instead of repeating 
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowe= d, especially on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take adv= antage of the broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the len= gth, don't invent a new one 
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I und= erstand, not a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE&nb= sp;

-- 
We’ve heard that a million monk= eys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare;= now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
―Robert Wilensky
______________= _________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

--_000_mc51yrrf9n0wxbjsrprt9amf1460143890063emailandroidcom_-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 16:11:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F6112D6C1; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EflBJwUB4_29; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22c.google.com (mail-yw0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD88012D17A; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id o66so59690836ywc.3; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=gxW+eFOid6SS3OoXP2shRdQuv2sGmLcDM3Gpf42Hqu0=; b=ZAPz/fH1Bs5G9my+27NdFFOcjnbxjTRlYtXsbP5nSFRECdrTzjGzQz9OoHXfu+S/gC 8YPE+C+rn20oQGFbui3wVXKYWy8cQ7i1JOIwErWYpj5aOZp0pACMfVmHMLikkNwI5We+ eMSf5mL2ITXg9852QWTiT1l0zmi9fvOieURvYxa5OtDBvx/tldV40oUrDsXXqLyhlzOs Op9kznwXtsrGDd+vmL1jbrCHCIpJTsfRBV79C3P1sfq05vetOsTNT/Hc/+tA5Fu/m4t9 EgguNYhoENS1X8UxMSTXtIq8CwELBfgEMnAOozqK89BJBvVpzj3+5FuEcxwpRJmNHXhL IPrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=gxW+eFOid6SS3OoXP2shRdQuv2sGmLcDM3Gpf42Hqu0=; b=NS2nvuu7ZS7jfM9sNbJZqjuv6I7dntbouhe7tTmqptFeWTSL9C6RndTO/CaKdjCQB+ XY+UvI2HFotQv2LWuLrKMFJfPldnyIOOGx15iCATmCcurqWLXcaneFusxyMnSMSq4Eze QfadMue+NEsi4GASRojeigD4OBanMTMpy4nGlBeKRA/8Kcz10Cfbmoo1ZUBF7L+ELQ1s Ta6iuwiLvEZX9OE3R5Nwk8lNRwTR2h0I0iQhzCAw+qKCe0ZoI8Of4tQf0ZLxksaCOU9b nZjQaBZWtwIvVPQQDkrel5liibvDyFXaGgBDZDUsWX/Y86c9jtWq1KF/7Y7ZVCAMbn6d qO2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKCVo2VTVaaHv24WRtfXYtvkiFfcSkVCMuaSFe4G/6P9V1UskHOY9tV0lQEx7DcroKFvL2BJT2e0vgtRw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.159.194 with SMTP id w185mr6163070ywg.297.1460154487311; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.215.143 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.215.143 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:28:07 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Mirsky To: Alexander Vainshtein Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0c01268892a0053000b5b6 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:11:11 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Xiaohu Xu Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 22:28:11 -0000 --94eb2c0c01268892a0053000b5b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sasha, thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonder if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had discussed the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the registry, could you please point me to it. Regards, Greg On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshtein" < Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote: > Carlos and all, > Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to= ST protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 1= 819, but the IANA > assignment still holds. > > Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST? > Thumb typed on my cellphone > Regards, > Sasha > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" > Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300 > To: Xiaohu Xu > CC: mpls@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Tony Przygienda" > Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsula= tion > > > Xiaohu, Tony, > > Please see inline. > > On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > > As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of > network protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation head= er > (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" field= ? > > > Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirst nibble= =E2=80=9D is > _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. Instead, the text d= escribes an > anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928. > > The relevant text is: > First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are set to 0101; this > ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header > or with the header of a pseudowire packet. > > Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6" > > wouldn't it be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e., > the lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itsel= f? > > > > > Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80=9D n= eeded. > > By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it > means the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it see= ms > that the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH draf= t. > As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be > mis-interpreted as IP header. > > > > > There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a number o= f > levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-indep= endent. It is by > charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even include the te= rm > =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The SFC En= capsulation can be > used in a transport-agnostic way. > > One more comment below. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > > ------------------------------ > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8= =A1=A8 Tony Przygienda [ > tonysietf@gmail.com] > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2016=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5= 22:36 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* bier@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 > > after reading > > a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in sync > > > One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text > at draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03 > > Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an IP > packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the > First Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions of= 0 and 1, > referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5). > > Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at > http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/ ? > > Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at: > > It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order > packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos. > > > b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync when > describing instead of repeating > c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially > on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of th= e > broadcast ? > d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't > invent a new one > e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not a > trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE > > -- > *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could = produce > the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know > that is not true.* > =E2=80=95Robert Wilensky > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > --94eb2c0c01268892a0053000b5b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sasha,
thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonder = if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had discusse= d the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the registry,= could you please point me to it.
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshte= in" <Alexander.= Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
Carlos and all,
Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S=
T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181=
9, but the IANA=20
assignment still holds.

Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST?
Thumb typed on my cellphone
Regards,
Sasha

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300
To: Xiaohu Xu <=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: mpls@ietf.org, <=
a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Ton=
y Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati=
on
Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

As for the first nibble iss= ue, will it violate the layering principle of network protocol stacks if th= e first nibble of any new encapsulation header (which could be an MPLS payl= oad)=C2=A0is used as the "MPLS payload type" field?

Reading=C2=A0draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirs= t nibble=E2=80=9D is _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. = Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928.= =C2=A0

The relevant text is:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are s= et to 0101; this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an= IP header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or with the header of a pseudowire packet.

Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6"= ;

wouldn't it=C2=A0 be mo= re reasonable and sustainable=C2=A0to fix the=C2=A0problem (i.e., the lack = of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?

=C2=A0


Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80= =9D needed.

By the way, since it's = claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the NSH should be a= ble to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that the first nibble is= sue has not be considered=C2=A0in the current NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the = NSH may be mis-interpreted as IP header.

=C2=A0



There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a numbe= r of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-in= dependent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not e= ven include the term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a transport-agnost= ic way.

One more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91= =E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1= =A8 Tony Przygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=C2=A02016=E5=B9= =B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 22:36
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0bier@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=C2=A0[Bier] comments on draft-wang-= bier-ethernet-01

after reading=C2=A0

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync=C2=A0

One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text at=C2=A0= draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an = IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the F= irst Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions of 0 = and 1, referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).

Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at=C2=A0http://www.iana.org/assign= ments/version-numbers/=C2=A0?

Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in= -order
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 a= nd 0x1.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.


b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating=C2=A0
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don= 9;t invent a new one=C2=A0
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE=C2=A0

--=C2=A0
We=E2= =80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce = the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know tha= t is not true.
= =E2=80=95Robert Wilensky
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/mpls


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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Thread-Topic: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRkPR7Ow6l9wh8WUKpFJXl+MwAqJ+AqQ4A///PiXuAAHRmgP//0LOA Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:38:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.247.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D32DB7253F57Bcpignataciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:11:12 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , Xiaohu Xu , "bier@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 22:38:58 -0000 --_000_D32DB7253F57Bcpignataciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R3JlZywNCg0KTXkgcG9pbnQsIHNvcnJ5IGlmIEkgd2FzIG5vdCBjbGVhciwgd2FzIHRoYXQgdGhl cmUgaXMgbm8gc3VjaCBhIHRoaW5nIGFzIGEgoa5maXJzdCBuaWJibGUgcmVnaXN0cnmhry4NCg0K SW5zdGVhZCwgUkZDIDQ5MjgsIFNlY3Rpb24gNSwgYXQgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9o dG1sL3JmYzQ5Mjgjc2VjdGlvbi01LCBzYXlzOg0KDQogICBJQU5BIGhhcyBtYXJrZWQgdGhlIHZh bHVlIDB4MSBpbiB0aGUgSVAgcHJvdG9jb2wgdmVyc2lvbiBudW1iZXIgc3BhY2UNCiAgIGFzICJS ZXNlcnZlZCIgYW5kIHBsYWNlZCBhIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIGJvdGgg dmFsdWVzDQogICAweDAgYW5kIDB4MS4NCg0KQW5kIHRoYXQgaXMgcmVmbGVjdGVkIGFzIGh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuaWFuYS5vcmcvYXNzaWdubWVudHMvdmVyc2lvbi1udW1iZXJzL3ZlcnNpb24tbnVtYmVy cy54aHRtbCN2ZXJzaW9uLW51bWJlcnMtMQ0KDQpUaGUgSUFOQSB0ZXh0IGluIDQ5MjggaXMgYWRk 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Greg,

My point, sorry if I was not clear, was that there is no such a thing as a = =A1=AEfirst nibble registry=A1=AF.

Instead, RFC 4928, Section 5, at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5, says:

   IANA has marked the val= ue 0x1 in the IP protocol version number space
   as "Reserved"= and placed a reference to this document to both values
   0x0 and 0x1.


The IANA text in 4928 is additionally followed by a disclaimer:

   Note that this document= does not in any way change the policies
   regarding the allocatio= n of version numbers, including the possible
   use of the reserved num= bers for some future purpose.

Further, RFC 4385 does not specify the =A1=AEfirst nibble=A1=AF as a field.= Instead, it depicts the actual binary values for the different CW formats.= In other words, it takes the values from the IP protocol version number an= d not as a new CW Field.

Thanks,

=A1=AA Carlos.

PS: Sasha, quick typo, s/1119/1190/;

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:28= PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.= com>
Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.= org>, "bier@ietf.org"= <bier@ietf.org>, "Dr. Tony= Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com>, &q= uot;mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibbl= e issue associated with MPLS encapsulation

Hi Sasha,
thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonder = if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had discusse= d the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the registry,= could you please point me to it.
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshte= in" <Alexander.= Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
Carlos and all,
Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S=
T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181=
9, but the IANA=20
assignment still holds.

Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST?
Thumb typed on my cellphone
Regards,
Sasha

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300
To: Xiaohu Xu <=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: mpls@ietf.org, <=
a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Ton=
y Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati=
on
Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

As for the first nibble iss= ue, will it violate the layering principle of network protocol stacks if th= e first nibble of any new encapsulation header (which could be an MPLS payl= oad) is used as the "MPLS payload type" field?

Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =A1=B0first n= ibble=A1=B1 is _not_ used as an =A1=B0MPLS payload type=A1=B1. Instead, the= text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928. 

The relevant text is:
     First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are s= et to 0101; this
   ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an= IP header
   or with the header of a pseudowire packet.

Which says =A1=B0=A1=AD will not be confused with =A1=AD"

wouldn't it  be more r= easonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e., the lack of a= protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?

 


Who says it is a *problem*? There=A1=AFs no =A1=B0fixing=A1=B1 needed.=

By the way, since it's clai= med that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the NSH should be able = to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that the first nibble issue = has not be considered in the current NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be m= is-interpreted as IP header.

 



There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a numbe= r of levels. First, NSH is not =A1=B0claimed to be=A1=B1 transport-independ= ent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even in= clude the term =A1=B0MPLS=A1=B1, because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a transport-agnost= ic way.

One more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

 

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Tony Przygie= nda [tonysietf@gma= il.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA4=D4=C25=C8=D5= 22:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bier@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-e= thernet-01

after reading 

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync 

One comment regarding the =A1=B0First nibble=A1=B1 text at draft-= ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an = IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the F= irst Nibble, it had to =A1=B0Reserve=A1=B1 IP protocol versions of 0 and 1,= referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).

Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at http://www.iana.org/assign= ments/version-numbers/ ?

Note that RFC 4928 says =A1=B0REQUIRED=A1=B1 at:

   It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in= -order
   packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 a= nd 0x1.

Thanks,

=A1=AA Carlos.


b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating 
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't = invent a new one 
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE 

-- 
We=A1= =AFve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true.
= =A1=AARobert Wilensky
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/mpls


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

 --_000_D32DB7253F57Bcpignataciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 16:11:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98A712D529; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B37xZErWW8a7; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x235.google.com (mail-yw0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A79112D0E1; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x235.google.com with SMTP id d68so151617701ywe.1; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:05:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=fsZNJKiA0lO0GEWzjNEjsbc5MqkiJCPPc9PvgOB60qQ=; b=ohn+JkbYMpr7NlfudKEVqxMGl0d4ygJvVFY+FilSI1E6W9etLXNYH0Nel0CP/q43H0 yZy/VXf9L2SCQ7/oQGHzJeizfv30qFK+iKDOqKcjxKGfLNl39esVnXVVidKJnUoHihf2 6BbqdStYgLm5fwZSRNeoPW11DHZgF90MxqExewOhOL46cuHBVGkMgEoIU6NJormJIS+2 vYLZr3z1pY5LvxXeOJKd77ukcH5jZEAPcR+4MXMUE8mzyc84e5R/jhX+rndsuow2LJgE CvzIsJt2zX5ftbmkpHVSyMqCG9FR+F6g2JoV3Jm8Yszs4r60+jP2S/Lg43Fgou3oyy7z SGOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=fsZNJKiA0lO0GEWzjNEjsbc5MqkiJCPPc9PvgOB60qQ=; b=i75+oaNrOBmuRB6u+oiwbm/XOitpHF2YI7BQoqkjRnYBzO4YVhiE95K7ec4YeQFBK2 BiGdLflKykJOy7VGACnM/85CnoUsRorbnDsoR6xKqRbjvesRLAdSArXa5g5dSau9gf1a 4A+7hfBY0OnWvxFtxLGmB4BEzCL69pZeOtt42NNnVQHlcGnwuxKlJhQ9OhxPRiaS/uDC jJNYmqgCBzSvP/EkQ7Q/sYfoAPMcLLmoe9axrW9wZYBoV5mjTiE9wb0iLJ6n4gv6Zr7Z RPKmcZLVaxBrYk2oKA/EIOECod71yb966ftyQzpboAhmbOgxxmEMgF7QmhIisuJTtzVm tIHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIl62grfIxr7YxqmS/jcKT/XrdETY1Mb7cMW5o95EUPOr20lmbg5rpg4dx5EnzQTN4oMUbipIackKXkIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.220.197 with SMTP id f188mr5650849ywe.172.1460156751807; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.215.143 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.215.143 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Mirsky To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07bc90820b460530013ca7 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 16:11:11 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , sfc@ietf.org, Alexander Vainshtein , Xiaohu Xu Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 23:05:56 -0000 --94eb2c07bc90820b460530013ca7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, thank you for the clarification. Should we think about establishing the registry than? Regards, Greg On Apr 8, 2016 5:38 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" wrote: > Greg, > > My point, sorry if I was not clear, was that there is no such a thing as = a > =E2=80=98first nibble registry=E2=80=99. > > Instead, RFC 4928, Section 5, at > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5, says: > > IANA has marked the value 0x1 in the IP protocol version number space > as "Reserved" and placed a reference to this document to both values > 0x0 and 0x1. > > And that is reflected as > http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml#ver= sion-numbers-1 > > > The IANA text in 4928 is additionally followed by a disclaimer: > > Note that this document does not in any way change the policies > regarding the allocation of version numbers, including the possible > use of the reserved numbers for some future purpose. > > Further, RFC 4385 does not specify the =E2=80=98first nibble=E2=80=99 as = a field. Instead, > it depicts the actual binary values for the different CW formats. In othe= r > words, it takes the values from the IP protocol version number and not as= a > new CW Field. > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos. > > PS: Sasha, quick typo, s/1119/1190/; > > From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:28 PM > To: Alexander Vainshtein > Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "Dr. > Tony Przygienda" , "mpls@ietf.org" , > Xiaohu Xu , Carlos Pignataro > Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS > encapsulation > > Hi Sasha, > thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonde= r > if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had > discussed the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the > registry, could you please point me to it. > Regards, Greg > On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshtein" < > Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote: > >> Carlos and all, >> Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned t= o ST protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC = 1819, but the IANA >> assignment still holds. >> >> Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST? >> Thumb typed on my cellphone >> Regards, >> Sasha >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >> Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300 >> To: Xiaohu Xu >> CC: mpls@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Tony Przygienda" >> Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsul= ation >> >> >> Xiaohu, Tony, >> >> Please see inline. >> >> On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >> >> As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle of >> network protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation hea= der >> (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" fiel= d? >> >> >> Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirst nibbl= e=E2=80=9D is >> _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. Instead, the text = describes an >> anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928. >> >> The relevant text is: >> First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are set to 0101; this >> ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header >> or with the header of a pseudowire packet. >> >> Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6" >> >> wouldn't it be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem (i.e.= , >> the lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itse= lf? >> >> >> >> >> Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80=9D = needed. >> >> By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it >> means the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it se= ems >> that the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH dra= ft. >> As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be >> mis-interpreted as IP header. >> >> >> >> >> There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a number >> of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-i= ndependent. It is >> by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even include th= e >> term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The = SFC Encapsulation >> can be used in a transport-agnostic way. >> >> One more comment below. >> >> Best regards, >> Xiaohu >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8= =A1=A8 Tony Przygienda [ >> tonysietf@gmail.com] >> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2016=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97= =A5 22:36 >> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* bier@ietf.org >> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 >> >> after reading >> >> a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in syn= c >> >> >> One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text >> at draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03 >> >> Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an IP >> packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the >> First Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions o= f 0 and 1, >> referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5)= . >> >> Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at >> http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/ ? >> >> Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at: >> >> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >> >> Thanks, >> >> =E2=80=94 Carlos. >> >> >> b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync whe= n >> describing instead of repeating >> c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especially >> on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he >> broadcast ? >> d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't >> invent a new one >> e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not = a >> trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE >> >> -- >> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could= produce >> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know >> that is not true.* >> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> >> --94eb2c07bc90820b460530013ca7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Carlos,
thank you for the clarification. Should we think about establishing the reg= istry than?
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 5:38 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (= cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.co= m> wrote:
Greg,

My point, sorry if I was not clear, was that there is no such a thing as a = =E2=80=98first nibble registry=E2=80=99.

Instead, RFC 4928, Section 5, at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5, says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0IANA has marked the val= ue 0x1 in the IP protocol version number space
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as "Reserved"= and placed a reference to this document to both values
=C2=A0 =C2=A00x0 and 0x1.


The IANA text in 4928 is additionally followed by a disclaimer:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that this document= does not in any way change the policies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding the allocatio= n of version numbers, including the possible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use of the reserved num= bers for some future purpose.

Further, RFC 4385 does not specify the =E2=80=98first nibble=E2=80=99 as a = field. Instead, it depicts the actual binary values for the different CW fo= rmats. In other words, it takes the values from the IP protocol version num= ber and not as a new CW Field.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

PS: Sasha, quick typo, s/1119/1190/;

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
Date: Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:28= PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.V= ainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "Dr. Tony Pr= zygienda" <tonysietf@gma= il.com>, "mp= ls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco= .com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibbl= e issue associated with MPLS encapsulation

Hi Sasha,
thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonder = if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had discusse= d the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the registry,= could you please point me to it.
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshte= in" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
Carlos and all,
Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S=
T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181=
9, but the IANA=20
assignment still holds.

Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST?
Thumb typed on my cellphone
Regards,
Sasha

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300
To: Xiaohu Xu <=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: mpls@ietf.org, <=
a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Ton=
y Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati=
on
Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

As for the first nibble iss= ue, will it violate the layering principle of network protocol stacks if th= e first nibble of any new encapsulation header (which could be an MPLS payl= oad)=C2=A0is used as the "MPLS payload type" field?

Reading=C2=A0draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirs= t nibble=E2=80=9D is _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. = Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928.= =C2=A0

The relevant text is:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are s= et to 0101; this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an= IP header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or with the header of a pseudowire packet.

Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6"= ;

wouldn't it=C2=A0 be mo= re reasonable and sustainable=C2=A0to fix the=C2=A0problem (i.e., the lack = of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?

=C2=A0


Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80= =9D needed.

By the way, since it's = claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the NSH should be a= ble to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that the first nibble is= sue has not be considered=C2=A0in the current NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be m= is-interpreted as IP header.

=C2=A0



There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a numbe= r of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-in= dependent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not e= ven include the term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a transport-agnost= ic way.

One more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91= =E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1= =A8 Tony Przygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=C2=A02016=E5=B9= =B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 22:36
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0bier@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=C2=A0[Bier] comments on draft-wang-= bier-ethernet-01

after reading=C2=A0

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync=C2=A0

One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text at=C2=A0= draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an = IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the F= irst Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions of 0 = and 1, referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).

Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at=C2=A0http://www.iana.org/assign= ments/version-numbers/=C2=A0?

Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in= -order
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 a= nd 0x1.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.


b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating=C2=A0
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don= 9;t invent a new one=C2=A0
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE=C2=A0

--=C2=A0
We=E2= =80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce = the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know tha= t is not true.
= =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/mpls


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
--94eb2c07bc90820b460530013ca7-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 21:43:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AE112D736; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZPHslMZLQ6iu; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9534212D732; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id q128so153813117iof.3; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 21:43:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=U1RZmcIyOJF98alsdMYhMT3PZLzoA+seFYmkiMvrBL0=; b=jqZ8s8dW01YrmPcLpcaKQsQcu/cvt6NuD85LuDylys+SqZhs/6FhjSM6NKEy41wa0N BXI0pTyWjB76xOgOi7nBG18XQcUp3pi1Ga3wZhbBbBhuIELnxA3gQlbuSnq6i/d6hUfq wbEZzbLcdldlzaty55AJM7AADpA3eji41IiKJvHmq8QWzMIxsuddFlPOYabXlbn3S4Yc TuSxCCxZEYTTpwtCVFlm5eT6C377gYGoD6jPe6YB1dcBji2gvugdCttdnIV1OON/Xn8M H/uuPSfYD/42uM0E5N5vnrLjmDtyRBCxLinQHIaR4qIOlgcVQDLdodnDEQB1fbkiAEyX tU3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=U1RZmcIyOJF98alsdMYhMT3PZLzoA+seFYmkiMvrBL0=; b=LLDwPthl9hAdrEUcL3JCVdLK6eXiPxM3B0lpYdQj8roVhLnAnQtCLvmtaZBfqPD9o5 sN1Ij5SVMsVHQf3lpiFYG6Xcnma/SmNypHvOKuvdZOdlM5w+F5peNK3FsFRmnwjBEDx9 o6ve626AfFdF9/SPlihvLlO9HO0+nxOwfkSva4YR2xC2PUY3UBChO38swiqyLgZ8BFLr q0HEc0+Q9BFS81Fs+/8ipW5UV1R+OeLE4R9le3e9jwbLNVHf4Yum8go5nzFqecxN8Alq S3A+4MXrsPviydrdEyfP6uP+muVxxDXO/LzP85xMZOhD7W1UWrT6nIIzJdoVpglq0CkZ fh4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJf6iLfd1oRD5Z0Q1ZXDv6gUQ6DjluSrsJ2Vij+xT7siZG0ec28ZkQoBEJ2EAoFvJahs3Xw9UHO7n4Gnw== X-Received: by 10.107.132.78 with SMTP id g75mr13312367iod.50.1460177013821; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.198.198 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:42:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 21:42:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fb6b237d75b053005f4bd Archived-At: Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , "bier@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , Alexander Vainshtein , Xiaohu Xu Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 04:43:38 -0000 --001a113fb6b237d75b053005f4bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carlos, thanks, enlightening input. That leads kind of back towards BIER with the question whether we are comfortable with it being ECMP'ed by DPI by mistake or whether we actually consider it desirable that it is ECMP'ed. BIER has its own ECMP section and is otherwise basically a hop-by-hop technology but the question still hold in case we have IP ECMP between two nodes (now, whether that's of practical relevance today or will be of relevance I leave over to the list to discuss). Then there is of course the consideration what happens if BIER is carried over tunnels, amongst them MPLS. Overall, looks like the only safe choice if we do NOT want it to be ECMP'ed unintentionally is to follow 4925 sec. 5, otherwise to pick up something that is not 4/6 to prevent firewall DPI and other tricks. --- tony On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Carlos, > thank you for the clarification. Should we think about establishing the > registry than? > Regards, Greg > On Apr 8, 2016 5:38 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" > wrote: > >> Greg, >> >> My point, sorry if I was not clear, was that there is no such a thing as >> a =E2=80=98first nibble registry=E2=80=99. >> >> Instead, RFC 4928, Section 5, at >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5, says: >> >> IANA has marked the value 0x1 in the IP protocol version number space >> as "Reserved" and placed a reference to this document to both values >> 0x0 and 0x1. >> >> And that is reflected as >> http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml#ve= rsion-numbers-1 >> >> >> The IANA text in 4928 is additionally followed by a disclaimer: >> >> Note that this document does not in any way change the policies >> regarding the allocation of version numbers, including the possible >> use of the reserved numbers for some future purpose. >> >> Further, RFC 4385 does not specify the =E2=80=98first nibble=E2=80=99 as= a field. >> Instead, it depicts the actual binary values for the different CW format= s. >> In other words, it takes the values from the IP protocol version number = and >> not as a new CW Field. >> >> Thanks, >> >> =E2=80=94 Carlos. >> >> PS: Sasha, quick typo, s/1119/1190/; >> >> From: Greg Mirsky >> Date: Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:28 PM >> To: Alexander Vainshtein >> Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "Dr. >> Tony Przygienda" , "mpls@ietf.org" , >> Xiaohu Xu , Carlos Pignataro >> Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS >> encapsulation >> >> Hi Sasha, >> thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I >> wonder if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, ha= d >> discussed the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is th= e >> registry, could you please point me to it. >> Regards, Greg >> On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshtein" < >> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote: >> >>> Carlos and all, >>> Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned = to ST protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC= 1819, but the IANA >>> assignment still holds. >>> >>> Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST? >>> Thumb typed on my cellphone >>> Regards, >>> Sasha >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >>> Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300 >>> To: Xiaohu Xu >>> CC: mpls@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Tony Przygienda" <= tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsu= lation >>> >>> >>> Xiaohu, Tony, >>> >>> Please see inline. >>> >>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >>> >>> As for the first nibble issue, will it violate the layering principle o= f >>> network protocol stacks if the first nibble of any new encapsulation he= ader >>> (which could be an MPLS payload) is used as the "MPLS payload type" fie= ld? >>> >>> >>> Reading draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirst nibb= le=E2=80=9D is >>> _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. Instead, the text= describes an >>> anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928. >>> >>> The relevant text is: >>> First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are set to 0101; this >>> ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an IP header >>> or with the header of a pseudowire packet. >>> >>> Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6" >>> >>> wouldn't it be more reasonable and sustainable to fix the problem >>> (i.e., the lack of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS hea= der >>> itself? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80=9D= needed. >>> >>> By the way, since it's claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, i= t >>> means the NSH should be able to be transported over MPLS. However, it s= eems >>> that the first nibble issue has not be considered in the current NSH dr= aft. >>> As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be >>> mis-interpreted as IP header. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a number >>> of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-= independent. It is >>> by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not even include t= he >>> term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The= SFC Encapsulation >>> can be used in a transport-agnostic way. >>> >>> One more comment below. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Xiaohu >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3= =E8=A1=A8 Tony Przygienda [ >>> tonysietf@gmail.com] >>> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2016=E5=B9=B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97= =A5 22:36 >>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* bier@ietf.org >>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01 >>> >>> after reading >>> >>> a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to keep in >>> sync >>> >>> >>> One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text >>> at draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03 >>> >>> Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an I= P >>> packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the >>> First Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions = of 0 and 1, >>> referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5 >>> ). >>> >>> Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at >>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/ ? >>> >>> Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at: >>> >>> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >>> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> =E2=80=94 Carlos. >>> >>> >>> b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync >>> when describing instead of repeating >>> c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especiall= y >>> on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of = the >>> broadcast ? >>> d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don't >>> invent a new one >>> e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, not >>> a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE >>> >>> -- >>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards coul= d produce >>> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know >>> that is not true.* >>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mpls mailing list >>> mpls@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mpls mailing list >>> mpls@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >>> >>> --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a113fb6b237d75b053005f4bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carlos, thanks, enlightening input. That leads kind of bac= k towards BIER with the question whether we are comfortable with it being = =C2=A0ECMP'ed by DPI by mistake or whether we actually consider it desi= rable that it is ECMP'ed. BIER has its own ECMP section and is otherwis= e basically a hop-by-hop technology but the question still hold in case we = have IP ECMP between two nodes (now, whether that's of practical releva= nce today or will be of relevance I leave over to the list to discuss). The= n there is of course the consideration what happens if BIER is carried over= tunnels, amongst them MPLS.=C2=A0

Overall, looks like t= he only safe choice if we do NOT want it to be ECMP'ed unintentionally = is to follow 4925 sec. 5, otherwise to pick up something that is not 4/6 to= prevent firewall DPI and other tricks.=C2=A0

--- to= ny =C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Greg Mirsky <= ;gregimirsky@gma= il.com> wrote:

Hi Carlos,
thank you for the clarification. Should we think about establishing the reg= istry than?
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 5:38 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (= cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
Greg,

My point, sorry if I was not clear, was that there is no such a thing as a = =E2=80=98first nibble registry=E2=80=99.

Instead, RFC 4928, Section 5, at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5, says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0IANA has marked the val= ue 0x1 in the IP protocol version number space
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as "Reserved"= and placed a reference to this document to both values
=C2=A0 =C2=A00x0 and 0x1.


The IANA text in 4928 is additionally followed by a disclaimer:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that this document= does not in any way change the policies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding the allocatio= n of version numbers, including the possible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use of the reserved num= bers for some future purpose.

Further, RFC 4385 does not specify the =E2=80=98first nibble=E2=80=99 as a = field. Instead, it depicts the actual binary values for the different CW fo= rmats. In other words, it takes the values from the IP protocol version num= ber and not as a new CW Field.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

PS: Sasha, quick typo, s/1119/1190/;

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
Date: Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:28= PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.V= ainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "Dr. Tony Pr= zygienda" <tonysietf@gma= il.com>, "mp= ls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco= .com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibbl= e issue associated with MPLS encapsulation

Hi Sasha,
thank you for pointing to existing IANA allocation, though stale. I wonder = if there is the registry for the first nibble. We, Tony and I, had discusse= d the way the first nibble space managed. If there already is the registry,= could you please point me to it.
Regards, Greg

On Apr 8, 2016 2:31 PM, "Alexander Vainshte= in" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
Carlos and all,
Just for the reference, IANA has defined version 5 (0101) has assigned to S=
T protocol and refers to RFC 1119. The latter has been obsoleted by RFC 181=
9, but the IANA=20
assignment still holds.

Is there, just in case, any relationship between BIER and ST?
Thumb typed on my cellphone
Regards,
Sasha

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, April 08, 2016 9:25 PM +0300
To: Xiaohu Xu <=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: mpls@ietf.org, <=
a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, "Dr. Ton=
y Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulati=
on
Xiaohu, Tony,

Please see inline.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

As for the first nibble iss= ue, will it violate the layering principle of network protocol stacks if th= e first nibble of any new encapsulation header (which could be an MPLS payl= oad)=C2=A0is used as the "MPLS payload type" field?

Reading=C2=A0draft-wang-bier-ethernet-01, Section 3, the =E2=80=9Cfirs= t nibble=E2=80=9D is _not_ used as an =E2=80=9CMPLS payload type=E2=80=9D. = Instead, the text describes an anti-aliasing mechanism, much like RFC 4928.= =C2=A0

The relevant text is:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First nibble: The first 4 bits of the header are s= et to 0101; this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensures that the BIER header will not be confused with an= IP header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or with the header of a pseudowire packet.

Which says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 will not be confused with =E2=80=A6"= ;

wouldn't it=C2=A0 be mo= re reasonable and sustainable=C2=A0to fix the=C2=A0problem (i.e., the lack = of a protocol field in the MPLS header) by the MPLS header itself?

=C2=A0


Who says it is a *problem*? There=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cfixing=E2=80= =9D needed.

By the way, since it's = claimed that the NSH is transport-independant, it means the NSH should be a= ble to be transported over MPLS. However, it seems that the first nibble is= sue has not be considered=C2=A0in the current NSH draft. As a result, when encapsulating NSH over MPLS, the NSH may be m= is-interpreted as IP header.

=C2=A0



There seems to be some massive confusion on this paragraph, on a numbe= r of levels. First, NSH is not =E2=80=9Cclaimed to be=E2=80=9D transport-in= dependent. It is by charter and by design. Second, the NSH draft does not e= ven include the term =E2=80=9CMPLS=E2=80=9D, because it does not define transports. The SFC Encapsulation can be used in a transport-agnost= ic way.

One more comment below.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91= =E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1= =A8 Tony Przygienda [tonysietf@gmail.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=C2=A02016=E5=B9= =B44=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 22:36
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0bier@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=C2=A0[Bier] comments on draft-wang-= bier-ethernet-01

after reading=C2=A0

a) first nibble: refer to MPLS encaps as "the same value" to= keep in sync=C2=A0

One comment regarding the =E2=80=9CFirst nibble=E2=80=9D text at=C2=A0= draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-03

Since the function of the first nibble is to prevent aliasing with an = IP packet, in order for RFC 4928 to specify values of 0x0 and 0x1 for the F= irst Nibble, it had to =E2=80=9CReserve=E2=80=9D IP protocol versions of 0 = and 1, referencing that RFC (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4928#section-5).

Is the intent to re-assign IPv5 at=C2=A0http://www.iana.org/assign= ments/version-numbers/=C2=A0?

Note that RFC 4928 says =E2=80=9CREQUIRED=E2=80=9D at:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in= -order
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 a= nd 0x1.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.


b) refer to all other possible fields to MPLS encaps to keep in sync w= hen describing instead of repeating=C2=A0
c) you need to describe which kind of ether MACs are allowed, especial= ly on broadcast media, i.e. is it always p2p or can you take advantage of t= he broadcast ?
d) Figure 4: use the architecture/MPLS encoding for the length, don= 9;t invent a new one=C2=A0
e) who will obtain a new ether type from IEEE? As far I understand, no= t a trivial process albeit we have several liaisons with IEEE=C2=A0

--=C2=A0
We=E2= =80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce = the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know tha= t is not true.
= =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/mpls


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls



--
=
We=E2=80=99ve heard= that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete w= orks of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.=
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
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CO2PR05MB794; 5:VrAJjOTcwBG4FSwBwgJsPyadCPZBZDmwBl5QU1j0AzwYPojKwb3GJspHA5jCyTQwsYKZ1digkk6UZ4vx8q1HMBvSEXSwTXlWIaceF40fYQK/OKP7ciXHf3fyg/Jj5BEAY15FpDxsfOukWpZImdUbzQ==; 24:gntWe3iCTB31al97lhdjXFIXTFERnsN9KzpgfL7o/SlF+h5FqxAjZk+JK9UyR+bP75Yx9X0K3Z7Uhbwjob1LXRY6vVH1RUGRcFHvr56g2wc= X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2016 14:19:22.7201 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR05MB794 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , Xiaohu Xu , "bier@ietf.org" , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] [sfc] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 14:19:43 -0000 (Removed sfc from the cc-list, this seems out of scope for that WG.) In designing the BIER header, the BIER WG is free to mandate any value it chooses in the first nibble. These values do not come from a "first nibble" registry. It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it traverses a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the type of the payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload is not IPv4, IPv6, or PW. This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that does MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, inappropriate load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the payload is IPv5 rather than BIER. This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. From nobody Mon Apr 11 12:08:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759EE12F34B for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F6MqmZVKiJIu for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E865112F350 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k9so21145214obk.2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=SPGfZQ6mjxBb6bWR5jsdQ3pZRqBV9wKIzT83o1kTf8o=; b=nZ0cibcFsVGHxySPdWSeDJcmSvxagv7dTrSd40cfA+n+omJRpa7m+lVKuAFbJLw8ih S9BkSkFoPk+1AsQUNBljj213NeL6r/mPIIqSdfHaexwUsMIJLE9Zh7IsUs/mGeNZfnXR tPmJ7W14CDanMJ4EoocERlaSZvpHyA49vh5/o8eC0ZcDKupkoCSnevbvl5oibPUGy+wM 5wvySnxiomyeXp3811eNdiGNWlqKPlOsE3D3qbclp0YtTcEH76PVhEHBdMc4f+V420SU zGAApC9glnLARyQT39Cc0gr/xJ3aCDNmMeVsK3wH1NAcmuWssepiqwcWKEsDrpNvTtsr 9EOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=SPGfZQ6mjxBb6bWR5jsdQ3pZRqBV9wKIzT83o1kTf8o=; b=igfr0ypy7DhUCitLhvqWcXO7C8muC7IhZuxQoq5fDIby1BjmAd7DH04ZG5w/NiHW/f 5e2lGoUaB9wCPIZ5CLZnDKJfgTVgkj/B+cuq4XRjL6r3HPmc0k+BCROTTngW3ozPRnCh yq4qcKZAzOZIy2F7SjBBTDcgIFE8zBt9Dkr4tQgDEzOna29XJBwPtQga+IkEiMNylFOL QBqTCXokMI9gjZfDfnysjhSpFpwxqzU2qEJsNo9MfYB23x+4jgMJTSM/8MjXPA7+DYbb obsZavH49nCGctjfPGX+hP3xoK5HgmiIxNN9ieMaWvSPBpCmUB9dUOnWxoEapSO9O4O2 RGAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKyOhTl/41Gd9VsuA1EHXjrjAMunXtCvKBvH2s1MzDO8dqbIHbUR6/4O3xQxQ7IQ6dt3Ag5gdKRjsyhrw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.38.233 with SMTP id j9mr10603425obk.57.1460401688290; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 15:08:08 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c33936dc349f05303a43bc Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] charter and document statuses X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 19:08:10 -0000 --001a11c33936dc349f05303a43bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I went back and reviewed the current BIER charter and expected work items. The work item we had agreed upon is: 9) Deployment Evaluation: Once there is deployment experience, the WG will produce an Informational RFC describing the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using BIER instead of traditional multicast forwarding mechanisms. Ideally, this should also contain an analysis of the impact and benefit of the new BIER data-plane to the overall Internet architecture. This document is intended to be used to evaluate whether to recharter BIER to produce Standards Track RFCs. If there is interest in changing from Experimental status, I will need to see such a draft to support a recharter. Thanks, Alia --001a11c33936dc349f05303a43bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I went back and reviewed the current BIER charter and expe= cted work items.

The work item we had agreed upon is:

9) Deployment Evaluation: Once there is deployment e= xperience, the
WG will produce an Informational RFC describing th= e benefits,
problems, and trade-offs for using BIER instead of tr= aditional
multicast forwarding mechanisms. Ideally, this should a= lso contain
an analysis of the impact and benefit of the new BIER= data-plane to
the overall Internet architecture. This document i= s intended to be
used to evaluate whether to recharter BIER to pr= oduce Standards
Track RFCs.

If there i= s interest in changing from Experimental status, I will need to see such a = draft to support a recharter.

Thanks,
Al= ia
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with ESMTPS id 8221B12D6E6; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 18:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLY72075; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 01:30:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 02:30:38 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 09:30:27 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRkPR7Ow6l9wh8WUKpFJXl+MwAqJ+AqQ4AgAZ6g/A= Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 01:30:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D539531@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR05MB789 Archived-At: Cc: Greg Mirsky , "bier@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , Alexander Vainshtein , Xiaohu Xu Subject: Re: [Bier] [bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:48:23 -0000 On 4/11/2016 8:19 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > The format of a BIER packet have enough constrained or self-defining > fields, that an off-line parsing tool like Wireshark can apply enough > heuristics to figure it out, without the 0x5. I haven't worked out for myself whether this is the case or not, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have the 0x05 there. > I understand why a mid-point LSR might want to not alias the MPLS > payload with IPv4 or IPv6, to prevent mis-hashing in the LB. Why would > a node be interested in knowing the payload is not a PW? What would it > do differently? I'm not sure if there is any hardware that performs PW-specific functions in the forwarding plane, based on the first nibble, but it seems prudent to avoid any possibility of confusion. > [It is interesting that the hint is, as described, to nudge a node > that the packet is *not* something, instead of the packet *is* BIER.] Well, of course, that's why the nibble is not a protocol type field ;-) In the MPLS encaps, the fact that the packet is BIER is determined from the MPLS label. In other proposed encapsulations, the encapsulating protocol would have a protocol type field. >> This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that does MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, inappropriate load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the payload is IPv5 rather than BIER. >> >> This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. >> > I agree that risk is quite insignificant (null in practice). The real risk I believe is if some other application over MPLS uses 0x5 in the first nibble, because they do not want to be confused with IP either, and they do not like 0x0 or 0x1. That is possible, but I don't really see what the problem is. I guess it is true that we'll have to say that BIER is not 100% compliant with RFC 4928. I don't see that as a problem either, but it is certainly possible that some AD will make an issue of it. From nobody Wed Apr 13 20:07:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B21012DFA5; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P1WIrOh7SZo2; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EBA812DEC4; Wed, 13 Apr 2016 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CMD15174; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 03:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 04:07:09 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:07:06 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Eric C Rosen , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRlZODxyb0YWE87kOEgjOaa5qR65+IxvJA Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 03:07:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D539EF2@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570E5C1A.7010606@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <570E5C1A.7010606@juniper.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: text/plain; 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CO2PR05MB794; 5:wBy0lGCHmYB4GphNKpxlA6fBT63c2fpPQZG/zLYUHo4yxjSrnlsYV3cjvU0Q1/BAqil2YXpJm3lgdPWDO034TLWl/oLtJhxxA1pXdP38e5lCWcNtmLZvtiS2ZVGje1NePI7+Ha92LdazIpVjgAiW8A==; 24:1g6HlNCMBOpioI0aXSxa188COyyimQYV+Y96WOXlRMrciFAcLDVV12DRgmEfzyslWJcnP4EPFpMOSEBHq+jmSjWdRsC/VeCsCRgI2osYKHw= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Apr 2016 13:19:02.2722 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR05MB794 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Greg Mirsky Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:19:32 -0000 On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > Stewart and all, > I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first nibble for all non-IP flows. > > As for the need for sub-typing: > AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an indication of an Ethernet PW. > > Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. > > This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. > At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used - at least for some PW types in some cases. It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it is best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the conclusion he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because it doesn't offer any protection against the behavior of existing hardware. On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry > and any wish to take another value really needs to be discussed > with the INT area. Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any need to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that the INT area seems to relish. On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: > > It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order > packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. > > If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1 for > bier- Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning given there does not really support the above "requirement". But the effort to do that hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes clear that the above requirement is protecting against the risk that IPv5 ECMP will affect some MPLS packets inappropriately. No one seems to think that that is a real risk. From nobody Thu Apr 14 07:41:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B93A12E442; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNpYnxB9X-75; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABB7112E3E7; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3328; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1460644904; x=1461854504; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=MGbomDxw7Qtxcp/k1fATf4Pl7dur5jWIMzdcf+9Feos=; b=gn6QKP6x+DSnfAaPQbulNoA5kEG5sryNAgNAXXnt/4feLS1YriI4c6dz 6UacWvZ9XTcS9jVXMc4G9ZiQz4qOU38zCR38WXCb6FreWSa5Mr8x3+CDe GjAJ0gR8HSVcI7gRUHxWEDXVLxqLqNV91AhciIOa+QA/uSLfka5uTZVO1 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BoAgCZqw9X/4sNJK1UCoM4U30GuikBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFxFwuFbAKBNzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhEIBAQQBAQFrCxACAQgYLicLJQIEAQ0FG4g?= =?us-ascii?q?ODsJKAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSKbIQVKIVYBY4KigEBiGmFI48Qj?= =?us-ascii?q?ygBHgEBQoIDGoFKbIhIfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,485,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="91456867" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Apr 2016 14:41:43 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (xch-aln-013.cisco.com [173.36.7.23]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3EEfhft024662 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:41:43 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:41:43 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:41:43 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein , Stewart Bryant Thread-Topic: [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRllBPnKj84mXOL0uPk6xlEkdjZJ+Jm6UA Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:41:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.172.184] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <369626A8A294504F9D9C36DA926324FF@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:41:46 -0000 Hi, Per IANA registry, 0-1 are =B3Reserved=B2 and so is not strictly assigned w= ith PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is hop-by-hop lookup based. So I think we don=B9t need to include this always. Instead, w= e could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not directly connected). The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So I think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. Thanks, Nagendra On 4/14/16, 9:20 AM, "mpls on behalf of Eric C Rosen" wrote: >On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >> Stewart and all, >> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first >>nibble for all non-IP flows. >> >> As for the need for sub-typing: >> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >>processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an >>indication of an Ethernet PW. >> >> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >>This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be >>reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >> >> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used - >>at least for some PW types in some cases. > >It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it is >best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the conclusion >he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because it doesn't >offer any protection against the behavior of existing hardware. > >On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry >> and any wish to take another value really needs to be discussed >> with the INT area. > >Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of >an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to >that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any need >to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that the INT >area seems to relish. > >On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >> In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble >>(a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). > >Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! > >On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: >> While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: >> >> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >> >> If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1 for >> bier-=20 > >Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning given >there does not really support the above "requirement". But the effort >to do that hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes clear that >the above requirement is protecting against the risk that IPv5 ECMP will >affect some MPLS packets inappropriately. No one seems to think that >that is a real risk. > > > >_______________________________________________ >mpls mailing list >mpls@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From nobody Thu Apr 14 08:12:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B151612D889; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMHncxPoSfR5; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0239B12DAAD; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [122.53.41.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AD81180156F; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:11:59 +0200 (CEST) To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein , Stewart Bryant References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:11:47 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:12:10 -0000 Nagendra, The IANA registry you refer to is the IP Version numbers http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml#version-numbers-1 Please note that this registry does not globally define what needs to be in the first nibble of a packet carried over mpls, it the payload is IP you are correct. If the payload is e.g. a PW then 0x0 in the first nibble of the payload indicates that it is PW the first nibble refer to to the PWMCW (Pseudowire MPLS Control Word), if the first nibble is 0x1 it tells you that this packet belongs to GACh. /Loa On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi, > > Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly assigned with > PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is hop-by-hop > lookup based. So I think we donıt need to include this always. Instead, we > could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not > directly connected). > > The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So I > think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. > > Thanks, > Nagendra > > > On 4/14/16, 9:20 AM, "mpls on behalf of Eric C Rosen" > wrote: > >> On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >>> Stewart and all, >>> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first >>> nibble for all non-IP flows. >>> >>> As for the need for sub-typing: >>> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >>> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an >>> indication of an Ethernet PW. >>> >>> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >>> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be >>> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >>> >>> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >>> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used - >>> at least for some PW types in some cases. >> >> It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it is >> best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the conclusion >> he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because it doesn't >> offer any protection against the behavior of existing hardware. >> >> On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry >>> and any wish to take another value really needs to be discussed >>> with the INT area. >> >> Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of >> an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to >> that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any need >> to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that the INT >> area seems to relish. >> >> On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >>> In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble >>> (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). >> >> Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! >> >> On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: >>> >>> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >>> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >>> >>> If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1 for >>> bier- >> >> Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning given >> there does not really support the above "requirement". But the effort >> to do that hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes clear that >> the above requirement is protecting against the risk that IPv5 ECMP will >> affect some MPLS packets inappropriately. No one seems to think that >> that is a real risk. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Thu Apr 14 12:48:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB2512DF8B; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkQFVo6XMh9D; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8925412DEF2; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79886d000002334-ae-570fed61f0e2 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 28.A7.09012.16DEF075; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:20:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:48:12 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Stewart Bryant , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein Thread-Topic: [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRllBODDlK1XlDUUCMzgo6JOQUU5+KHvqA//+/xkA= Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:48:10 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45986@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FF01F.6090403@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <570FF01F.6090403@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiG7SW/5wg+bP/BZTt35gtlg6Yw+T xboNQNatpStZLU49SLTY/WAjiwObx6Z/xxk9ds66y+6xZMlPJo/rTVfZA1iiuGxSUnMyy1KL 9O0SuDJmbrvFWHBesuLvK+8Gxg0iXYwcHBICJhJLzph0MXICmWISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjKKNH2 8jqUs5xR4vbOa+wgVWwCRhIvNvawgyREBLoZJe48nMsEkmAWKJaYcvMRmC0sECaxr6eFCWSD iEC4xIXdcSBhEQEriZajs9hAbBYBVYme079ZQGxeAV+J36vfskMsm80qceLcfbA5nAKaEsv3 7WUGsRmBzvt+ag3ULnGJW0/mM0GcLSCxZM95ZghbVOLl43+sELaixL7+6ewQ9ToSC3Z/YoOw tSWWLXzNDLFYUOLkzCcsExjFZiEZOwtJyywkLbOQtCxgZFnFyFFaXJCTm25ksIkRGF/HJNh0 dzDen+55iFGAg1GJhzdhEX+4EGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRFet1dAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zS HCxK4ryNwf/ChATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYzpbK+vP3ff+7T/zxmXRZs8OTc/zLi9w73Y 7OG11UFO/0+uDnzQOGFlU0DpH6brE5ms+Rdb9X4sXTTF+/3GZZ6NPMGTw6Q/fzHzWeDnNXdF s9DZWPuf6h2pG0y/PJyUEjP1h56tjmbPkjqjaasKvuVP3rl6d4qCYZy+87TM2MB/bEt1hLKa g3qUWIozEg21mIuKEwG3w2CUqwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:48:15 -0000 Hi Stewart, et. al, just wanted to clarify, though that likely was stated on the thread already= , that the problem of the first nibble is only on transient, i.e. P, nodes = that are not aware of the context of the BoS label. And with the fact that = there are old and very old P nodes out there in the network there might be = no absolutely safe solution to the First Nibble issue/concern. Though we ca= n recommend safer policies to handle ECMP on P nodes, e.g. use EL. Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:32 PM To: Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Dr. Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS enca= psulation On 14/04/2016 14:20, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >> Stewart and all, >> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first=20 >> nibble for all non-IP flows. >> >> As for the need for sub-typing: >> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an=20 >> indication of an Ethernet PW. Well there will be Ethernet PWs not using the CW that can put any Ethernet = address in the first nibble, so if there are Ethernet addresses that start = with 5 they will look like BIER packets. >> >> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP.=20 >> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be=20 >> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >> >> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used >> - at least for some PW types in some cases. > > It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it=20 > is best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the=20 > conclusion he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because=20 > it doesn't offer any protection against the behavior of existing=20 > hardware. There is no truly safe position until we mandate that all deployed PWs use = the CW, but that is not going to happen for a while. > > On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish=20 >> to take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT area. > > Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware=20 > of an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to=20 > that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any=20 > need to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that=20 > the INT area seems to relish. > Sorry I meant version number. Before we assign a member of this very small number range to BIER, I would = like some confidence that it will see any significant deployment.=20 When PW took 0 and 1, it was already a widely deployed protocol. Stewart - Stewart _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From nobody Thu Apr 14 14:43:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D63D12DD9C; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOyTjVcYuqca; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0748.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::748]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE3A212E46E; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:43:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=yS3yzWof/wfjqD6uh3pcg4KyjyiH6RQrPqAxdPalcj8=; b=SNKZj7Kumh7pGW934RqLcKUDKyOfEEHgs5e+ipL8rtaO5dcIUfEo5X0snuQIk50y4cG3uU3ajCBuIXcV5xL9EbBStn4zO5GoFAGk53yUDHjpnZdQ/khV66+aMW+7vx2uRBWVFxVeFoaTGrH7L040l4XGbLw/so5PcJLX4b4PZYg= Authentication-Results: juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;juniper.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received: from [172.29.34.60] (66.129.241.10) by BLUPR05MB788.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.209.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.453.26; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:43:05 +0000 To: Stewart Bryant , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FF01F.6090403@gmail.com> From: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <57100EE4.60601@juniper.net> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:43:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; 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BLUPR05MB788; 5:2xPKFUI+EJ9wOrUuHVZ+ROwmm7KcIEtWn+dNkUzz1DWpGleGV3dLu/cDdwSrPY1vX231l532aMzEF6DvGi04Lq/WTGBfB+OMy/65Kbv4ceESYjgAqbR1kywejMdhCZ3+GXmb/eUADTC2DMVvLFISbQ==; 24:3+aXSli+M7b7zpS2e9fDkzPQ1ZPqxXqKi+Uxf/csXvxZ1jwuRSBnoLOzmdwV1DhwLbDPp8oUhYG5EFnAvQYjewo0ZclhWCwaNzo7pV1VWeI= X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Apr 2016 21:43:05.8922 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR05MB788 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Greg Mirsky Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:43:32 -0000 On 4/14/2016 3:31 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > Well there will be Ethernet PWs not using the CW that can put any > Ethernet address in the first nibble, so > if there are Ethernet addresses that start with 5 they will look like > BIER packets. What problem will that cause? > Sorry I meant version number. > > Before we assign a member of this very small number range to BIER, The first nibble of the BIER header does not have to have a value taken from the IP version number registry. > I would like some confidence that it will see any significant > deployment. When PW took 0 and 1, it was already a widely deployed > protocol. Note though that when PW started using 0 and 1 in the first nibble, it was not already a widely deployed protocol. I'd say it was a mistake to reserve 0 and 1 in the IP version number registry, as those reservations have no practical impact, and just cause a lot of unproductive discussions to take place. From nobody Thu Apr 14 16:50:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE07912D662; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M86YBvoSSXYW; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9920812D18E; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:50:34 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f796f6d000000e1e-e7-57102ca1ee06 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 86.92.03614.1AC20175; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:49:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:50:33 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Loa Andersson , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein , Stewart Bryant Thread-Topic: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRllBODDlK1XlDUUCMzgo6JOQUU5+JzfOAgAAIZ4CAAE0KAA== Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:50:32 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45C47@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+5CHYFwgxnTBC2mbv3AbLF0xh4m i3UbgKx/c+cwW9xaupLV4vXEqWwWpx4kOrB7TPm9kdVj07/jjB47Z91l91iy5CeTx/Wmq+we s6a3sQWwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlXGz+zFzwXL1i+YGL7A2MXQpdjJwcEgImEgv2H2CGsMUk LtxbzwZiCwkcZZR41F7RxcgFZC9nlOjYswwswSZgJPFiYw87iC0i8JBR4vUDPhCbWcBFYnP/ UbC4sECsxPnJi6Bq4iSmHn7ADGE7SXzbtZkVxGYRUJWYdxNiDq+Ar8TM35uZIZbtY5VYfHMC WIITqGjHvQ4WEJsR6Lrvp9YwQSwTl7j1ZD4TxNUCEkv2nIf6QFTi5eN/rBC2osS+/unsEPV6 EjemTmGDsLUlli18zQyxWFDi5MwnLBMYxWYhGTsLScssJC2zkLQsYGRZxchRWlyQk5tuZLiJ ERh/xyTYHHcw7u31PMQowMGoxMObsIg/XIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIb4K6QLgQb0piZVVqUX58 UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXu/If2FCAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGxrVT2g9P7vi1dtvloCO8v5xP iD64Je9QGT2H7XdFfkXY6191L3ZMi2pItJprrfdRVCaoWWrixtsH7y8R3+G8LW7rn+/lJWeP /nqVu2Txk0myy7fvzNixd/d5YZ6WOrX2rcsuTBJf5dW3ufPavruHo7/MnnvLlu310sikWylB EZWHu18IFn/6Me+6EktxRqKhFnNRcSIA52VvhrsCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:50:38 -0000 Hi Loa, et. al, assuming that deployed nodes understand some, at least 0x04 and 0x06, value= s of the first nibble, wouldn't it be sufficient to define one new value as= None-of-the-Above? Though we're still exposed to Ethernet PW without CW ca= se. Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:12 AM To: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar); Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein; S= tewart Bryant Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MP= LS encapsulation Nagendra, The IANA registry you refer to is the IP Version numbers http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml#versi= on-numbers-1 Please note that this registry does not globally define what needs to be in= the first nibble of a packet carried over mpls, it the payload is IP you a= re correct. If the payload is e.g. a PW then 0x0 in the first nibble of the payload ind= icates that it is PW the first nibble refer to to the PWMCW (Pseudowire MPL= S Control Word), if the first nibble is 0x1 it tells you that this packet b= elongs to GACh. /Loa On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi, > > Per IANA registry, 0-1 are =B3Reserved=B2 and so is not strictly assigned= =20 > with PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is=20 > hop-by-hop lookup based. So I think we don=B9t need to include this=20 > always. Instead, we could conditionally include this, if the next BFR=20 > is tunneled (not directly connected). > > The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So=20 > I think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. > > Thanks, > Nagendra > > > On 4/14/16, 9:20 AM, "mpls on behalf of Eric C Rosen" > wrote: > >> On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >>> Stewart and all, >>> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first=20 >>> nibble for all non-IP flows. >>> >>> As for the need for sub-typing: >>> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >>> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an=20 >>> indication of an Ethernet PW. >>> >>> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >>> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be=20 >>> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >>> >>> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >>> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are=20 >>> used - at least for some PW types in some cases. >> >> It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it=20 >> is best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the=20 >> conclusion he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because=20 >> it doesn't offer any protection against the behavior of existing hardwar= e. >> >> On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish=20 >>> to take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT=20 >>> area. >> >> Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of >> an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to >> that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any=20 >> need to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that=20 >> the INT area seems to relish. >> >> On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >>> In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble=20 >>> (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). >> >> Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! >> >> On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: >>> >>> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >>> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >>> >>> If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1=20 >>> for >>> bier- >> >> Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning=20 >> given there does not really support the above "requirement". But the=20 >> effort to do that hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes=20 >> clear that the above requirement is protecting against the risk that=20 >> IPv5 ECMP will affect some MPLS packets inappropriately. No one seems=20 >> to think that that is a real risk. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Apr 14 19:36:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF36812E651; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FFw4xTifT4Os; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D70912E649; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [122.53.41.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E880A1802AB8; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:36:04 +0200 (CEST) To: Gregory Mirsky , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein , Stewart Bryant References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45C47@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <57105391.1090403@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:36:01 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45C47@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:36:12 -0000 Greg, On 2016-04-15 07:50, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Loa, et. al, > assuming that deployed nodes understand some, at least 0x04 and 0x06, values of the first nibble, wouldn't it be sufficient to define one new value as None-of-the-Above? Though we're still exposed to Ethernet PW without CW case. > The "none-of-the-above" approach might be sufficient, though I struggling to understand if we gain anything extra putting a specific number there. /Loa > Regards, > Greg > > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:12 AM > To: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar); Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein; Stewart Bryant > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation > > Nagendra, > > The IANA registry you refer to is the IP Version numbers > http://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml#version-numbers-1 > > Please note that this registry does not globally define what needs to be in the first nibble of a packet carried over mpls, it the payload is IP you are correct. > > If the payload is e.g. a PW then 0x0 in the first nibble of the payload indicates that it is PW the first nibble refer to to the PWMCW (Pseudowire MPLS Control Word), if the first nibble is 0x1 it tells you that this packet belongs to GACh. > > /Loa > > On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly assigned >> with PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is >> hop-by-hop lookup based. So I think we donıt need to include this >> always. Instead, we could conditionally include this, if the next BFR >> is tunneled (not directly connected). >> >> The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So >> I think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. >> >> Thanks, >> Nagendra >> >> >> On 4/14/16, 9:20 AM, "mpls on behalf of Eric C Rosen" >> wrote: >> >>> On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >>>> Stewart and all, >>>> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first >>>> nibble for all non-IP flows. >>>> >>>> As for the need for sub-typing: >>>> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >>>> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an >>>> indication of an Ethernet PW. >>>> >>>> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >>>> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be >>>> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >>>> >>>> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >>>> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are >>>> used - at least for some PW types in some cases. >>> >>> It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it >>> is best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the >>> conclusion he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because >>> it doesn't offer any protection against the behavior of existing hardware. >>> >>> On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>>> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish >>>> to take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT >>>> area. >>> >>> Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of >>> an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to >>> that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any >>> need to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that >>> the INT area seems to relish. >>> >>> On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >>>> In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble >>>> (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). >>> >>> Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! >>> >>> On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: >>>> While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: >>>> >>>> It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order >>>> packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. >>>> >>>> If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1 >>>> for >>>> bier- >>> >>> Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning >>> given there does not really support the above "requirement". But the >>> effort to do that hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes >>> clear that the above requirement is protecting against the risk that >>> IPv5 ECMP will affect some MPLS packets inappropriately. No one seems >>> to think that that is a real risk. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mpls mailing list >>> mpls@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Thu Apr 14 19:53:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B1C12E6DA; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:53:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XGKEgdpa0p9N; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40DF312E6D7; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [122.53.41.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F21A1802AB8; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 04:53:37 +0200 (CEST) To: Stewart Bryant , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> <570FF136.7030600@gmail.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <571057AE.6090305@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:53:34 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570FF136.7030600@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:53:42 -0000 Stewart, On 2016-04-15 03:36, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 14/04/2016 16:11, Loa Andersson wrote: >> >> >> /Loa >> >> On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly assigned >>> with >>> PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is >>> hop-by-hop >>> lookup based. So I think we donıt need to include this always. >>> Instead, we >>> could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not >>> directly connected). >>> >>> The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So I >>> think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. > > Not quite Loa. > > It could be an Ethernet PW with no CW. Yes - you are right, how much of a problem is this in a P node? Any value, except 4 and 6, will stop the P node from doing ECMP/Load Sharing, right? A P node will never look for the control word. So an Ethernet PW that carries the same value in the first nibble that we specify for bier will be treated the same way as a bier packet. This does not effect the bier packets, and is the right way to treat the PW. So where do we have the problem? BIER would be in the clear, as it will carry any value but 4 or 6 in the first nibble, right? PWs with control word will have 0 (or 1) and not be effected by a P node that are doing ECMP/Load Sharing. Ethernet PWs without control word might have any value in the first nibble, if there is 4 or 6 a P node might to ECMP/Load Sharing. It seems to me that specifying the first nibble in a bier packet would be good, for the time being I don't care if we say 0 or 5. If there are problems with Ethernet PWs without control word, this has to be solved in the context of PWs. /Loa > > Stewart From nobody Thu Apr 14 20:55:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B5D12DFB7; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rebVZCVVanRB; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1C4112DF35; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79886d000002334-d7-57105fa6b704 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C2.A8.09012.6AF50175; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 05:27:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:55:44 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Loa Andersson , Stewart Bryant , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein Thread-Topic: [mpls] [Bier] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRloT8vzhXQ8QBukG0nHM9+FvEPJ+KmgQA///L7QA= Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:55:43 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45EC0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> <570FF136.7030600@gmail.com> <571057AE.6090305@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <571057AE.6090305@pi.nu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+6yeIFwg5ZDkhZTt35gtlg6Yw+T xboNQNa/uXOYLW4tXclq8XriVDaLUw8SHdg9pvzeyOqx6d9xRo+ds+6yeyxZ8pPJ43rTVXaP WdPb2ALYorhsUlJzMstSi/TtErgybs1Zwl6wXKLi2a5tbA2MS4S7GDk5JARMJF6+msoCYYtJ XLi3ng3EFhI4yigx54hZFyMXkL2cUeLky8VMIAk2ASOJFxt72EESIgIPGSX2zlnDDpJgFnCR 2Nx/FMjm4BAWiJX4uCoVJCwiECfR0vGCCcK2kvh7bhoTSAmLgKrEj4VgN/AK+Ep8n3iPBWLX N1aJG9c6wcZwAtXM2yACUsMIdNv3U2uYIDaJS9x6Mp8J4mYBiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwlSTm vL7GDFGvJ3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC18wQewUlTs58wjKBUWwWkrGzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYwcpcUF ObnpRgabGIGxd0yCTXcH4/3pnocYBTgYlXh4ExbxhwuxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4e1MEQgX4k1J rKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkztsY/C9MSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwJhipXdvxtOUAyFm nJPVXCaufGX1Xt3QyC9p5U6n91oTf0WGzz3u7aRlUxvQlDdbR2TyPLdFb3OuhM264/y2Lb2N f7azHEtg/8eTwteYJef+0M/xvb1+8R4T+TONf+8sk5/vmLtjh1FN/kGxJxJTij6fnPD54KJd b3h8PvOEnVhRLXfD5fQ0sTdKLMUZiYZazEXFiQAgRTRKuQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 03:55:51 -0000 Hi Loa, I think that use of value 5 in the first nibble for MPLS encapsulated BIER = packets is to differentiate them from all other variants that use the first= nibble as the hint to P node on what use as flow characteristic informatio= n for ECMP. I don't think, though we should consult with BIER WG and author= s of draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation, that the first nibble not supposed= to be used as payload type identifier but only to differentiate from other= types of the first nibble at P nodes to avoid incidental hashing of BIER p= ackets assumed to be something else, IP or Ethernet. If that is the case, t= hen the same value 5 may be used as None-of-the-Above indicator, including = SFC. Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:54 PM To: Stewart Bryant; Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar); Eric C Rosen; Alexand= er Vainshtein Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [mpls] [Bier] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MP= LS encapsulation Stewart, On 2016-04-15 03:36, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 14/04/2016 16:11, Loa Andersson wrote: >> >> >> /Loa >> >> On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Per IANA registry, 0-1 are =B3Reserved=B2 and so is not strictly=20 >>> assigned with PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?.=20 >>> Further, BIER is hop-by-hop lookup based. So I think we don=B9t need=20 >>> to include this always. >>> Instead, we >>> could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not=20 >>> directly connected). >>> >>> The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC.=20 >>> So I think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. > > Not quite Loa. > > It could be an Ethernet PW with no CW. Yes - you are right, how much of a problem is this in a P node? Any value, = except 4 and 6, will stop the P node from doing ECMP/Load Sharing, right? A= P node will never look for the control word. So an Ethernet PW that carries the same value in the first nibble that we s= pecify for bier will be treated the same way as a bier packet. This does not effect the bier packets, and is the right way to treat the PW= . So where do we have the problem? BIER would be in the clear, as it will carry any value but 4 or 6 in the fi= rst nibble, right? PWs with control word will have 0 (or 1) and not be effected by a P node th= at are doing ECMP/Load Sharing. Ethernet PWs without control word might have any value in the first nibble,= if there is 4 or 6 a P node might to ECMP/Load Sharing. It seems to me that specifying the first nibble in a bier packet would be g= ood, for the time being I don't care if we say 0 or 5. If there are problems with Ethernet PWs without control word, this has to b= e solved in the context of PWs. /Loa > > Stewart _______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From nobody Fri Apr 15 00:10:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD01E12D806; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ty9zTCfS8c3L; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 00:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BACF12D0C2; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 00:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [122.53.41.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA5D41802ADB; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:09:53 +0200 (CEST) To: Gregory Mirsky , Stewart Bryant , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> <570FF136.7030600@gmail.com> <571057AE.6090305@pi.nu> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45EC0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <571093BE.7070803@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:09:50 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221A45EC0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 07:10:00 -0000 Greg, I think the position of the mpls wg should be that LSRs (P node) may do load sharing if the the first nibble is 4 or 6, otherwise not. Other wg may decide on which of the "none of the above"-values to use in the cases they specify. When specifying such values it should be clear that the first nibble is not a general payload indicator, it is an indicator whether load sharing (if available) may be wanted or not. For some PW application the first nibble have a meaning slightly different from this, as far as I can see this is OK and deployed. It also means that other wg may want to distinguish the payload that wg specifies from PWs, but in doing so they should not assume that the value they chose is a indicator that is 100% sure to identify that payload. /Loa On 2016-04-15 11:55, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Loa, > I think that use of value 5 in the first nibble for MPLS encapsulated BIER packets is to differentiate them from all other variants that use the first nibble as the hint to P node on what use as flow characteristic information for ECMP. I don't think, though we should consult with BIER WG and authors of draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation, that the first nibble not supposed to be used as payload type identifier but only to differentiate from other types of the first nibble at P nodes to avoid incidental hashing of BIER packets assumed to be something else, IP or Ethernet. If that is the case, then the same value 5 may be used as None-of-the-Above indicator, including SFC. > > Regards, > Greg > > -----Original Message----- > From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:54 PM > To: Stewart Bryant; Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar); Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [mpls] [Bier] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation > > Stewart, > > On 2016-04-15 03:36, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> >> >> On 14/04/2016 16:11, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> >>> >>> /Loa >>> >>> On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly >>>> assigned with PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. >>>> Further, BIER is hop-by-hop lookup based. So I think we donıt need >>>> to include this always. >>>> Instead, we >>>> could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not >>>> directly connected). >>>> >>>> The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. >>>> So I think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. >> >> Not quite Loa. >> >> It could be an Ethernet PW with no CW. > > Yes - you are right, how much of a problem is this in a P node? Any value, except 4 and 6, will stop the P node from doing ECMP/Load Sharing, right? A P node will never look for the control word. > > So an Ethernet PW that carries the same value in the first nibble that we specify for bier will be treated the same way as a bier packet. > This does not effect the bier packets, and is the right way to treat the PW. > > So where do we have the problem? > > BIER would be in the clear, as it will carry any value but 4 or 6 in the first nibble, right? > PWs with control word will have 0 (or 1) and not be effected by a P node that are doing ECMP/Load Sharing. > Ethernet PWs without control word might have any value in the first nibble, if there is 4 or 6 a P node might to ECMP/Load Sharing. > > It seems to me that specifying the first nibble in a bier packet would be good, for the time being I don't care if we say 0 or 5. > > If there are problems with Ethernet PWs without control word, this has to be solved in the context of PWs. > > /Loa >> >> Stewart > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Fri Apr 15 06:57:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81B612E276 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id helRjrHLMG6i for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1287412E1E3 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id s79so124634555oie.1 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=uE5l1fsRq6oubcwTy7t63LthwO6DfJ9Z0W3eVyuTnqM=; b=uayWHtnV05Wb9jrHvFvdvr4jKbZrl+51cz+05QGg/uoCoTbw+dusksUuv/pMWZZt68 kf+VCUgITtKK4T+2gMPEmRIiI+dDVmCUTdhfjA1D34eEz+gqHF23pcwl2YBymKeMvJBw KTy8IwQwiSvzcFSMWVGo70zodB88qmMmP6gYsaYbUju8azmHkjJQIHqDxAPjE3wudNZp eFJLMcWiBe6w9v6q387IFyT+PTA+//P27vZe8HnGF4vPUTOKDQJSh+lU8nYamoljhSB0 0T2F8nBdABDRmwP+20VS7/Z0FalwBo+Do5kExgwnqUgEVmOaKuXH+o8cqY7raF0Hwned QAWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject :from:to; bh=uE5l1fsRq6oubcwTy7t63LthwO6DfJ9Z0W3eVyuTnqM=; b=SAfp+PwaM0/mo4KqV/lRnEv6GfzHITeIM/H33Cbu0AAIdlb4AbYWdjBVpAYsuKdRMx Y9b0UkWcomSRn3PWz6NmYOZapzSUhQAaTCg6NmHaIcnlIvTv2E3OpMP2bil2XpkF2eN7 e5zw1npWg/klWxZ2fpmY4ZguER8bK/2Vt6mUQNRpqkDCPxTiX799h/B+c4zeVyz+RwtY WZpDIKmIQ0DqZi+cfjAlw+uGdVhom+0NISB2IZVe4JyiZoami54EcP4fLdbyIaknP6sN cvnREZuqRwV0L9KqacX/kDDIX+zerwJ/OHdNb3IZhUW3nu8x602A2lBsbtNn2VIg9KXQ fqHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUpWG7do5Jl9LVRBMmYK0JOEFNtlnmZBlDyTWrXr/apN+dn4B/WjSmsX/qOOY4pgAWE56m+HFUjJ15MzQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.234.135 with SMTP id i129mr10161670oih.10.1460728658261; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.157.9.136 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 06:57:38 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d395ec9fcd8053086642a Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG Minutes, IETF 95 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:57:41 -0000 --001a113d395ec9fcd8053086642a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Tony for the excellent minutes. Please read and reply with corrections. They will be submitted soon. Thanks, Greg ---minutes--- BIER Meeting Minutes Exec Summary: OAM, Yang towards adoption, core drafts moving well towards LC, security still missing, discussion whether it should moved into standards track - Note Well - Greg: Yang: only points of contention and progress to be reported - towards last call, last point of contention scope of flooding of BIER info - no questions - Eckert: Biert-TE: - new co-authors - FRR: modifying bit mask as local decision and rerouting the packet - Mirsky: how do you differentiate between link & node failure ? can=E2=80=99t, like RSVP, probably either/or - subdomains - concerns about applying term of SI to BIER-TE - new terminology will be introduced and mappings analyzed - suggestion of introduction of slices (single bit with its own label) - Andrew/ALU: Is that of any value ? don=E2=80=99t make it WG item - OAM: we have OAM & that runs over resilient layer and this is violating multi-layer network OAM recommendation - Diego ? : in physical topologies possibly valuable ? - chairs: please take out to list as =E2=80=9Cprotection for BIER=E2= =80=9D discussion - chairs: split TE from the =E2=80=9Cprotection=E2=80=9D discussion a= nd what do we adopt - Mirsky: Performance Measurement with marking in BIER - double marking method more advanced & preferable - call for WG adoption - rough consensus of readers to adopt - call will be taken to the list - chairs: delayed question: this does NOT prohibit use of OAM bits in different manner ? - unclear: discussion to be taken to the list whether we can imagine other uses of those OAM bits ? - Mirsky: BFD in BIER - part of larger piece of work from the =E2=80=9Coverlay OAM design t= eam=E2=80=9D - submitted to RTG WG - Sandy?: BIER Ethernet Encapsulation - call for adoption: - Chairs/Eckert: where is the discussion ? what are the use cases ? who will do the work - Alia: where are the use-cases, we also have a Wiki ? - Andrew: generate more interest - chairs: we can=E2=80=99t just let it sit or worse, standardize w= ithout review. - Greg: IEEE is not expensive ;-) Here=E2=80=99s a chance to get = a 2.5 multicast solution - Alia: talk to Pat Tayler - Chair: comments been given on list about MAC addresses. This NEEDS review - Eckerd: Wiki too light ? - Alia: yes, f2f let=E2=80=99s figure out how we work together. Fo= rm the discussion anyway you want - David: Where are the DC people with use cases so the claims can be unsubstantiated. - Partha/Bloomberg: Sounds interesting - David/Mellanox: BML MUST be set on all encapsulations - chair: needs more input/discussion/collaboration before we call adoption - Sandy: BIER Use Case in NVO3 - Greg: is BIER overlay coordinated with NVO overlay ? BIER is a transport for NVO - Ran: Yang for BIER - chair: what=E2=80=99s the FRR in BIER ? - chair: great it=E2=80=99s validated, that=E2=80=99s real progress - Greg: ? - chair: should we call for adoption ? solid consensus for adoption. will be taken to the list - chair: FRR needs removed until we have consensus/WG items - Ran: BGP-LS for BIER - has been discussed with Peter, aligns with OSPF - weak consensus to call for adoption with no opposition. Will be taken to the list - Linda?/Path Autogeneration: - Chairs: read/comment - Linda?/BIER TE Yang Model: - Chair: Do not explain the model, highlight progress and issues - Greg: why not augment the base model ? BIER-TE fwd is very different ? But Yang is _configuration_ and _state_, fwd data plane paradigm is orthogonal to that. Question there are sufficient differe= nces between the models here - Eckert/Cisco: ? - chair: get a doctor ? no. get a doctor. - Chair: Should we aim for Standards Track ? What=E2=80=99s the Criteria= ? - chair: we lack security - Alia: I need to look @ problem statement to address it further. - Documents. - being EXPERIMENTAL helped focus and speed - implementation status added ? experience how it=E2=80=99s used ? applicability ? - Robert Raszuk: we can=E2=80=99t get silicon vendors to implement be= cause experimental (as Bloomberg input) so it=E2=80=99s chicken/egg problem= . - Alia: but then get me more status/comments on list. It will touch _everything_ in the hourglass once it becomes PS. So consider this. - Robert: we=E2=80=99re looking BIER in overlay so we can even softwa= re. - Alia: so add use-case to document Vendor discussion: - MPLS draft should strongly MUST that the BML is set in the packet --001a113d395ec9fcd8053086642a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to Tony for the excellent minutes. Please read and = reply with corrections. They will be submitted soon.

Tha= nks,
Greg

---minutes---

BIER Meeting=C2=A0Minute= s

Exec Summary: OAM, Yang towards adopti= on, core drafts moving well towards LC, security still missing, discussion = whether it should moved into standards track=C2=A0


  • Note Well
  • Greg: Yang: only points of = contention and progress to be reported
    • towards last call, last point of contention sc= ope of flooding of BIER info=C2=A0
    • no questio= ns
  • Eckert: Biert-TE:
    • new co-authors
    • FRR: modifying bit mask as local decision and rerouting th= e packet
      • M= irsky: how do you differentiate between link & node failure ? can=E2=80= =99t, like RSVP, probably either/or
    • subd= omains
      • con= cerns about applying term of SI to BIER-TE
      • ne= w terminology will be introduced and mappings analyzed
    • suggestion of introduction of slices (single bit with its = own label)=C2=A0
    • Andrew/ALU: Is that of any v= alue ? don=E2=80=99t make it WG item
    • OAM: we = have OAM & that runs over resilient layer and this is violating multi-l= ayer network OAM recommendation
    • Diego ? : in = physical topologies possibly valuable ? =C2=A0
    • chairs: split TE from the = =E2=80=9Cprotection=E2=80=9D discussion and what do we adopt=C2=A0
    • Mirsky: Performance Measurement with marking in = BIER
      • doubl= e marking method more advanced & preferable=C2=A0
      • call for WG adoption=C2=A0
      • rough con= sensus of readers to adopt
      • call will be taken= to the list=C2=A0
      • chairs: delayed question: = this does NOT prohibit use of OAM bits in different manner ?=C2=A0
        • unclear: discussio= n to be taken to the list whether we can imagine other uses of those OAM bi= ts ?=C2=A0
    • Mirsky: BFD in BIER=C2= =A0
      • part o= f larger piece of work from the =E2=80=9Coverlay OAM design team=E2=80=9D= =C2=A0
      • submitted to RTG WG=C2=A0
      Sandy?: BIER Ethernet Encapsulation=C2=A0
      • call for adoption:= =C2=A0
        • Cha= irs/Eckert: where is the discussion ? what are the use cases ? who will do = the work=C2=A0
        • Alia: where are the use-cases,= we also have a Wiki ?=C2=A0
        • Andrew: generate= more interest=C2=A0
        • chairs: we can=E2=80=99t= just let it sit or worse, standardize without review.=C2=A0
        • Greg: IEEE is not expensive ;-)=C2=A0 Here=E2=80=99s a cha= nce to get a 2.5 multicast solution=C2=A0
        • Ali= a: talk to Pat Tayler=C2=A0
        • Chair: comments b= een given on list about MAC addresses. This NEEDS review
        • Eckerd: Wiki too light ?=C2=A0
        • Al= ia: yes, f2f let=E2=80=99s figure out how we work together. Form the discus= sion anyway you want=C2=A0
        • David: Where are t= he DC people with use cases so the claims can be unsubstantiated.=C2=A0
        • Partha/Bloomberg: Sounds interesting=C2=A0
          • <= li style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvet= ica;color:rgb(69,69,69)">David/Mellanox: BML MUST be set on all encapsulati= ons
        • chair: needs more input/discussion/collab= oration before we call adoption
    • San= dy: BIER Use Case in NVO3=C2=A0
      • Greg: is BIER overlay coordinated with NVO overlay ? = BIER is a transport for NVO
    • Ran: Yang fo= r BIER=C2=A0
      • chair: what=E2=80=99s the FRR in BIER ?=C2=A0
      • chair: great it=E2=80=99s validated, that=E2=80=99s real progress=C2=A0=
      • Greg: ?=C2=A0
      • = chair: should we call for adoption ? solid consensus for adoption. will be = taken to the list=C2=A0
      • chair: FRR needs remo= ved until we have consensus/WG items=C2=A0
    • Ran: BGP-LS for BIER=C2=A0
      • has been discussed with Peter, aligns with OSPF=C2=A0
      • weak consensus to call for adoption with no op= position. Will be taken to the list=C2=A0
    • =
    • Chairs: read/comment=C2=A0
  • Linda?/BIER TE Yang Model:=C2=A0
    • Chair: Do not explain the model, highli= ght progress and issues=C2=A0
    • Greg: why not a= ugment the base model ? BIER-TE fwd is very different ? But Yang is _config= uration_ and _state_, fwd data plane paradigm is orthogonal to that. Questi= on there are sufficient differences between the models here=C2=A0
    • Eckert/Cisco: ?=C2=A0
    • ch= air: get a doctor ? no. get a doctor.=C2=A0
  • Chair: Should we aim for Standards Track ? What=E2=80=99s the Criteria = ?=C2=A0
    • ch= air: we lack security=C2=A0
    • Alia: I need to l= ook @ problem statement to address it further.=C2=A0
      • Documents.=C2=A0
      • being EXPERIMENTAL helped focus and speed=C2=A0
      • implementation status added ? experience how it=E2=80= =99s used ? applicability ?=C2=A0
    • Robert= Raszuk: we can=E2=80=99t get silicon vendors to implement because experime= ntal (as Bloomberg input) so it=E2=80=99s chicken/egg problem.=C2=A0
      • Alia: but then get me more status/comments on list.= It will touch _everything_ in the hourglass once it becomes PS. So conside= r this.=C2=A0
    • Robert: we=E2=80=99re looking B= IER in overlay so we can even software.
    • Alia:= so add use-case to document



Vendor discussion:

  • MPLS draft should strongly MUST that the BML is set in t= he packet
--001a113d395ec9fcd8053086642a-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 10:20:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D849412E35F; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.19.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160418172044.9385.42423.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:20:44 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 17:20:45 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : Encapsulation for Bit Index Explicit Replication in MPLS Networks Authors : IJsbrand Wijnands Eric C. Rosen Andrew Dolganow Jeff Tantsura Sam K Aldrin Filename : draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-04.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2016-04-18 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "multicast domain", without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any per-flow state or to engage in an explicit tree-building protocol. When a multicast data packet enters the domain, the ingress router determines the set of egress routers to which the packet needs to be sent. The ingress router then encapsulates the packet in a BIER header. The BIER header contains a bitstring in which each bit represents exactly one egress router in the domain; to forward the packet to a given set of egress routers, the bits corresponding to those routers are set in the BIER header. The details of the encapsulation depend on the type of network used to realize the multicast domain. This document specifies the BIER encapsulation to be used in an MPLS network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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These values do not come from a "first > nibble" registry. > > It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: > > - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good > hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; > > - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it traverses > a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the type of the > payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload is not IPv4, > IPv6, or PW. > > This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, > implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that does Too late; see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-ip-version-5-8-9-historic-00 Discussion on the int-area list. Tom Petch > MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS > payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, inappropriate > load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the payload is IPv5 > rather than BIER. > > This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. > > Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. > From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:36:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A63A12D1D2; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 05:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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--_000_AM3PR03MB0775C55E5AD3247F373007139D940AM3PR03MB0775eurp_-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:36:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688E612F558; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7cLnZsB3-SxR; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 245D912F542; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 17:19:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3939; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1460420344; x=1461629944; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=JFjG4kU9+w9VEpdD8+CfcftwNlAMqEQ23V0nWObETaU=; b=lzuzikXsMmfWtf2FDj4HeCY+Yd7oFKxKUfGR1k4yPzXrdaVBWStQY80/ MqAeG8TIAFU7mKB5DY8yWhJ3EepM/VUZavX+kOjXHgfSzEj2N/ZjAXSzp 9t7hMuctdMGCnc3ZataHGKTOxeqMsSGl1IZQbEdPGhcTqhQ2QGadr4IN3 U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 841 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CwAgChPQxX/5pdJa1dgzeBUAa4ToIPD?= =?us-ascii?q?oFyhg0CgTA4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RBAQEBAwEjVgULAgEIGCoCAjIlAgQOBQ6IEQi?= 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[sfc] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRkPR7Ow6l9wh8WUKpFJXl+MwAqJ+AqQ4A///PiXuAAHRmgP//0LOAgAA52ICABAmLAIAAGlYAgACnj4A= Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 00:19:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.101.176] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0CE6BADB-12FF-46DB-920E-1F70601B7917"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: Greg Mirsky , "bier@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , Alexander Vainshtein , Xiaohu Xu Subject: Re: [Bier] [sfc] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 00:19:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0CE6BADB-12FF-46DB-920E-1F70601B7917 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote: >=20 > (Removed sfc from the cc-list, this seems out of scope for that WG.) >=20 > In designing the BIER header, the BIER WG is free to mandate any value = it chooses in the first nibble. These values do not come from a "first = nibble" registry. >=20 I absolutely agree with this, in particular the comment about a = registry. However... > It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: =E2=80=A6 the value (significance, merit) of such value (magnitude, = number) seems, as described below, minimally incremental. >=20 > - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good = hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; >=20 The format of a BIER packet have enough constrained or self-defining = fields, that an off-line parsing tool like Wireshark can apply enough = heuristics to figure it out, without the 0x5. > - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it = traverses a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the = type of the payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload is = not IPv4, IPv6, or PW. >=20 I understand why a mid-point LSR might want to not alias the MPLS = payload with IPv4 or IPv6, to prevent mis-hashing in the LB. Why would a = node be interested in knowing the payload is not a PW? What would it do = differently? [It is interesting that the hint is, as described, to nudge = a node that the packet is *not* something, instead of the packet *is* = BIER.] > This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, = implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that does = MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS payloads. = If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, inappropriate load = splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the payload is IPv5 rather = than BIER. >=20 > This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. >=20 I agree that risk is quite insignificant (null in practice). The real = risk I believe is if some other application over MPLS uses 0x5 in the = first nibble, because they do not want to be confused with IP either, = and they do not like 0x0 or 0x1. > Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. >=20 >=20 Frankly do not have strong opinions either way. I do believe, however, = that the rational for using 0x5 as the first nibble is underspecified = (or at least under-documented). Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. --Apple-Mail=_0CE6BADB-12FF-46DB-920E-1F70601B7917 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXDD70AAoJEIXgpQGOZny9GakP/2+/aFDxk+rPp+C8clVd0TbS bUqMZCmjlRJVCCLj9EAQzEkcj15PX/VmhlSik+UnQZkiUQ2E0jMFANWWtchokYrw YjPlCoFcxtP8lM+bgS4Qx/bYRg7uzyv0zI76axdBVTycPlAj5XRjKynLbhko8HOP 2RWWW5+YQcRssVV8SRKcKlsK85OKev6avZLO0l5aa84DSePllBmgqKNY4zZwI4ZP KMr9+vjgvdFvjdNNOdPrWHkLNcvkuVCm41oHq2eyyIB2Tj037MOwLVDSO4Nvwezj TQuXeH82VFaqXjKmnRHvM3wysqssoEraiBkuNRcwsg6zU7jw1/BVZK0UKVDOdO+2 69CP63EsbeaaLWXSUBdzl8TY/n+0bjYi44isSOPIZG82NDRwA+J1gawRM9NQLMfT zOI2cffjKhX8Z0ZgxVQ88DSpiI4QLtAI1Lxq7aQ75L0wiJQHSptrksR2nQwcLkiS t03nnZ/AADOhfIFrCtUYiKLSH4BXROSdYTjB7FWmMizAFhwXUqnQAvXw9cPEwuF4 ZV/rck5sZ/qkw+Eai7+/vJ28YD0t93JTQ6VCPxIkaKZxOedhm9XLrpzK3eJ+ybXg /lbo4Vu4E/xsndgcOBnuoH/RZMdsJGGs+Ed5+OevoFRd4y+fT/WjJIaOs2R2kr3J 9NPC0HB/FDPatxnICGSm =WrOs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0CE6BADB-12FF-46DB-920E-1F70601B7917-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4175C12D61D; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIbYPwLJAxUH; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61ECA12D619; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id n3so116970482wmn.0; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hbEnJweM1pN89JA5RGjVa2ZI3SOTNwr6BeNHZl+FBeY=; b=GBw288Bi4Y+ESyqv67XjcOBL7jftJRPbtnpx4QRe4iat+WnwzzP3MeQbC1oOtFPKae Op75nqFDKdN+GYxlD81x3Lsaq3V9nK02/52CdD6qEcM5bDSlppxj+scvscZKWzgnL7pU Pn6tjKgAb+WKDroWbtLqaiL4SvvPux2KMEknpwGerkb4mE2hOTKjsKTNgERw1Rl9o2MF FNj8FuGNk+iREF1/Q44RLkOKx35LHyF0WwoV1/yO+mpcQV1VybXaSld41WWmovWK7HGQ VY1tVfiIIUIIVEJ6SVZTEXQGObu/gSBjHuVDNjp53IM5lB+/tXyOYVSXFbT33BUuWGF+ FVXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hbEnJweM1pN89JA5RGjVa2ZI3SOTNwr6BeNHZl+FBeY=; b=HmqnGZXsZBaarKeBiXEeq8bX+8ASzALIcNzAUd+B3iZygFZdrHqkHZ+WoM9t5sCsqx LOCSxY6HlSJhtL94x/50VyiX0YyZesUDlOPg7y2NgMqJuWtfv5tJA/7ijcqy+0PFLJUT 6MtUOBiRSkCsViRy5pOMrVZ6u7POH/USkxD6X6WyLf9Tbt/+sBuf4O5DpEvJqEMHTBb1 TcdAYRZ4SWX0Sdsg41URDBG7tXACm6n8JqRjd1+OLiCdBnRPn71VkTJDI24UFNoUC8Qw sWYTukDSiCS5U8UnjpRxRETppM9CmVs3kE2BtyRPwcfrQM1n5vtSmTyEv23prke0FL9e 4vMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJK+l+CGu4Q4radaCUJXYsGww6M/9SWpCygMF2gGsQVbjy+hjPxjwBdQafcLyhyftw== X-Received: by 10.28.50.133 with SMTP id y127mr34982077wmy.4.1460626294935; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a73sm5581617wme.2.2016.04.14.02.31.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:31:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein , Greg Mirsky References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:31:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:31:38 -0000 I am not sure zero is PW so much as "type undefined - don't ECMP". That was certainly the definition that we were talking about at the time. The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish to take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT area. Also the code space is so small that we really need to be super conservative in its allocation. Given it's true purpose, I suggest that we only have the unused deprecated values of 0 (taken), 1 (taken), 2, 3 and possibly 5 available for use (for ever). Seven and up really should be kept available to the IP protocol itself. Five of course was deployed. It was used for some form of streaming protocol, but it is probably safe to assume that it is no longer in the wild. Whilst Eric makes a case for 5, I think there is also a strong case for zero. If there is a need for subtyping zero for wireshark etc, we could take a look at what the use is made of the second nibble in PWs and see if there is a set of values never in practise used and thus available for subtyping. - Stewart On 11/04/2016 15:19, Eric C Rosen wrote: > (Removed sfc from the cc-list, this seems out of scope for that WG.) > > In designing the BIER header, the BIER WG is free to mandate any value > it chooses in the first nibble. These values do not come from a > "first nibble" registry. > > It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: > > - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good > hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; > > - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it > traverses a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the > type of the payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload > is not IPv4, IPv6, or PW. > > This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, > implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that > does MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS > payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, > inappropriate load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the > payload is IPv5 rather than BIER. > > This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. > > Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B9412E1FE; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 03:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:06:12 +0000 Received: from DB3PR03MB0780.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.161.55.12]) by DB3PR03MB0780.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.161.55.12]) with mapi id 15.01.0466.020; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:06:12 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Stewart Bryant Thread-Topic: [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRljBxDa8CpN5y/0moBrflyXhalp+JOvXg Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:06:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ecitele.com; x-originating-ip: [147.234.241.1] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f90efde3-2a17-4a35-f8e2-08d3644c6895 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB3PR03MB0777; H:DB3PR03MB0780.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Apr 2016 10:06:12.2916 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2c514a61-08de-4519-b4c0-921fef62c42a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR03MB0777 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , Greg Mirsky , "bier@ietf.org" , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:06:37 -0000 Stewart and all, I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first nibble= for all non-IP flows. As for the need for sub-typing:=20 AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet processor= s) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an indication of an= Ethernet PW. Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. This = causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be reordered if = handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used - at = least for some PW types in some cases. Regards, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com -----Original Message----- From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:32 PM To: Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein; Greg Mirsky Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Dr. Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encap= sulation I am not sure zero is PW so much as "type undefined - don't ECMP". That was certainly the definition that we were talking about at the time. The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish to take= another value really needs to be discussed with the INT area. Also the code space is so small that we really need to be super conservativ= e in its allocation. Given it's true purpose, I suggest that we only have t= he unused deprecated values of 0 (taken), 1 (taken), 2, 3 and possibly 5 av= ailable for use (for ever). Seven and up really should be kept available to the IP protocol itself. Five of course was deployed. It was used for some form of streaming protoco= l, but it is probably safe to assume that it is no longer in the wild. Whilst Eric makes a case for 5, I think there is also a strong case for zer= o. If there is a need for subtyping zero for wireshark etc, we could take a lo= ok at what the use is made of the second nibble in PWs and see if there is = a set of values never in practise used and thus available for subtyping. - Stewart On 11/04/2016 15:19, Eric C Rosen wrote: > (Removed sfc from the cc-list, this seems out of scope for that WG.) > > In designing the BIER header, the BIER WG is free to mandate any value=20 > it chooses in the first nibble. These values do not come from a=20 > "first nibble" registry. > > It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: > > - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good=20 > hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; > > - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it=20 > traverses a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the=20 > type of the payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload=20 > is not IPv4, IPv6, or PW. > > This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed,=20 > implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that=20 > does MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS=20 > payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel,=20 > inappropriate load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the=20 > payload is IPv5 rather than BIER. > > This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. > > Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65FD12D591; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 05:59:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="91762122" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Apr 2016 12:59:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (xch-rtp-020.cisco.com [64.101.220.160]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3ECx8H9002176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:59:09 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:59:08 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:59:08 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Xuxiaohu Thread-Topic: [bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHRlZN9PVrX2Wi8F0+nxhEebuX+pp+JDVoAgAClZwA= Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:59:08 +0000 Message-ID: <6FF3596A-DC0A-4EBE-889D-2FF3DD2A5B8A@cisco.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570E5C1A.7010606@juniper.net> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D539EF2@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D539EF2@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.210.95] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3957F221-A2E8-42A6-A675-2C7B3AAD2477"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: Greg Mirsky , "bier@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , Alexander Vainshtein , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] [bier] [mpls] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:59:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3957F221-A2E8-42A6-A675-2C7B3AAD2477 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3C08CE0D-795E-4A6B-BCD1-8BF6F3224105" --Apple-Mail=_3C08CE0D-795E-4A6B-BCD1-8BF6F3224105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 13, 2016, at 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: >=20 >> Well, of course, that's why the nibble is not a protocol type field = ;-) In the MPLS >=20 > If we pick different values for the first nibble of different MPLS = payloads, the first nibble actually plays the role of a protocol type = field. No. Really no. > In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble = (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field). >=20 Let=E2=80=99s not. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > Best regards, > Xiaohu --Apple-Mail=_3C08CE0D-795E-4A6B-BCD1-8BF6F3224105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Apr 13, 2016, at 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>= wrote:

Well, of course, that's why the nibble is not a protocol type = field ;-) In the MPLS

If we pick different values for the first = nibble of different MPLS payloads, the first nibble actually plays the = role of a protocol type field.

No. Really no.

In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry = for the first nibble (a.k.a., MPLS payload type field).


Let=E2=80=99s not.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94= Carlos.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

= --Apple-Mail=_3C08CE0D-795E-4A6B-BCD1-8BF6F3224105-- --Apple-Mail=_3957F221-A2E8-42A6-A675-2C7B3AAD2477 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXD5QaAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9g6QP/jPp8taK6TXhXa5A0JhSJIkh EZl8+f9ovq4MgNy2BW+QHQQMC37Sic9og0Z4byPQwei4QkB2d4C5aA131R1OsvMo Lq04G/BKI/DOVh0cU4k+HSzf/UJGDhFhvv54+VWCYw7Fd2W5Gv/BqEMIv58mL0R6 S/Kdcw0bTdkBhhWS9IkvlDGOEicFhBQnEWLjIExplmS5SgTVDk5Y+iG5laBKAV7e 4GyrrkMwhrwWTjavh2VIXy7DlIIvtP7gV7oXxNWH1iNI3ndKOIl2CeWRLiEWThL9 KbTgGqTPJNSBGl4TCJh2q2KkApGdF4Ca/+Foi6zWQn29iEuatb1S1dM4286jod2c /u5FpvvgQTTtJgU3McSjBiaF2VC8FNMJ1tLfFYKOG0Tjq0Qs0ixHrB3/AhXv88sH 386HL3RDP/+Zh2o8RsHh+4NYlJRewQHpUZSDkyQGFflnZT3CBIk6hTZ0EZaKqQMo jZdnXAGTOSksjBrrgskF1n/YCRxm7Cyrwe2VouZhFDXiTnNBeZ59UAGzXTHS7Df4 B3jUVrYg0SfreapKDmb7RoRwjgsH6rUiJc29Zf00r8ni1bGSfMl6eQCnHUO9Asyr ZepcCN9YUd3VDWm29QNHXWftuseEHTddT71eQGQ0YKpNytS/ACJMliU1ypZpIHMi /kC8HDlwbS8wjPhwpqQ+ =XuXn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3957F221-A2E8-42A6-A675-2C7B3AAD2477-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF61112DF64; 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They tend to consider anything with neither 4 or 6 in the first nibble as E= thernet PWs. Regards, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com -----Original Message----- From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 4:20 PM To: Alexander Vainshtein; Stewart Bryant Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Dr. Tony Przygienda; Greg Mirsky Subject: Re: [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS enca= psulation On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > Stewart and all, > I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first nibb= le for all non-IP flows. > > As for the need for sub-typing: > AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet process= ors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an indication of = an Ethernet PW. > > Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. Thi= s causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be reordered i= f handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. > > This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. > At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used - a= t least for some PW types in some cases. It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it is be= st to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the conclusion he dr= ew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because it doesn't offer any = protection against the behavior of existing hardware. On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish to=20 > take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT area. Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware of=20 an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to=20 that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any need to = get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that the INT area = seems to relish. On 4/13/2016 11:07 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > In fact, there is an attempt to have a registry for the first nibble (a.k= .a., MPLS payload type field). Hopefully that attempt won't succeed! On 4/14/2016 7:06 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: > > It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order > packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. > > If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1=20 > for > bier- Strictly speaking, RFC 4928 needs to be updated, as the reasoning given the= re does not really support the above "requirement". But the effort to do t= hat hardly seems worthwhile. RFC 4928 already makes clear that the above r= equirement is protecting against the risk that IPv5 ECMP will affect some M= PLS packets inappropriately. No one seems to think that that is a real risk= . From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C49512D72A; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehOeEsKqcJ83; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F20B912D6E0; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id n3so137906909wmn.0; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SKG0GpXPAPu11jLNObBU5etFGDsX+PPW2XSw1FDt6P8=; b=DemucUhndEAVGm/Irvu32oUGuilXT+/+YABixtu4R4TCXtVcEppouQYoLVwDMdAIJe PDLj/slMPMussVblhB5qmTInenY3YnBRM5j8VpQdITcp6QSWOlGriseOVl69lCUiq0uv rCbhEkIUQspnOpkHnhUOerlJ1EHD4O/A2iu6lUBHHnN/9eUZTCbg+xEGd6T2d8p8FX9A 7JrFWVWkaq1//WAhABDnkjH1/Ti0aPRbLYhfW3YiPb23GF5Wo0RJ3EBQfJx2OX/svzWw uOsBn6NFPX5xbsuIy+/12qsYmPOO2dzAo+tbpAnPumUi7OQMSzfa8m/k3aXB7t9sBHHS 0GLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SKG0GpXPAPu11jLNObBU5etFGDsX+PPW2XSw1FDt6P8=; b=lRxGXNnkfglI1Kmp5PCvNfJ7wPJwfrcE91mYZVLBD4CNqdVpc1q1xUOvz08vblXR5G HZRHzVt4Guy9bLwzojp8O6RjPqbvjffQd9Jq5A2hlham+mrF9mnRfnU30wwICM9CdB4X UBsMpLlFw2Hn4MWC441pMLlbqtGdC08tw88QCKRgZ6E8+2uFSLO/tXJFRO0qHMyG2wBh UERyT8x6NzZbrdCrhqtYa+Z6S9iqr0ANCCDj+oEPNK3tZaUQ9xbjKxTQmgNU25443bDt 2sg0UTP2k+DRWjr+r28Bk60Ydq/7eHvmP0aw/km9JsFoQGHU26TAOLsGESTdYgkm72AE QfRg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWDtZSwvQ2g5dvFdwqOGBat735lyzTmzTFNZKcLv2vFvYlk7dbpeowUjEHzWlUe8w== X-Received: by 10.194.63.8 with SMTP id c8mr17867516wjs.89.1460657173497; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gt7sm45188321wjc.1.2016.04.14.11.06.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:06:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Loa Andersson , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F79AB.9070107@pi.nu> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <570FDC12.6090505@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:06:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570F79AB.9070107@pi.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:06:17 -0000 On 14/04/2016 12:06, Loa Andersson wrote: > Sasha and Stewart, > > > On 2016-04-14 18:06, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >> Stewart and all, >> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first >> nibble for all non-IP flows. > > While I can live with 0x0000, 0x0010 or 0x0101, RFC 4928 actually says: > > It is REQUIRED, however, that applications depend upon in-order > packet delivery restrict the first nibble values to 0x0 and 0x1. > > If that is what we want for bier, there is a case to use 0x0 or 0x1 for > bier- 0x1 is of course the OAM identifier, i.e. the GACH indicator, which BIER is also free to use with appropriate channel type. Stewart > > /Loa >> >> As for the need for sub-typing: >> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an >> indication of an Ethernet PW. >> >> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be >> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >> >> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used >> - at least for some PW types in some cases. >> >> Regards, >> Sasha >> >> Office: +972-39266302 >> Cell: +972-549266302 >> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:32 PM >> To: Eric C Rosen; Alexander Vainshtein; Greg Mirsky >> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Dr. Tony Przygienda >> Subject: Re: [mpls] [sfc] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS >> encapsulation >> >> I am not sure zero is PW so much as "type undefined - don't ECMP". >> That was certainly the definition that we were talking about at the >> time. >> >> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry and any wish >> to take another value really needs to be discussed with the INT area. >> >> Also the code space is so small that we really need to be super >> conservative in its allocation. Given it's true purpose, I suggest >> that we only have the unused deprecated values of 0 (taken), 1 >> (taken), 2, 3 and possibly 5 available for use (for ever). >> Seven and up really should be kept available to the IP protocol itself. >> >> Five of course was deployed. It was used for some form of streaming >> protocol, but it is probably safe to assume that it is no longer in >> the wild. >> >> Whilst Eric makes a case for 5, I think there is also a strong case >> for zero. >> >> If there is a need for subtyping zero for wireshark etc, we could >> take a look at what the use is made of the second nibble in PWs and >> see if there is a set of values never in practise used and thus >> available for subtyping. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> On 11/04/2016 15:19, Eric C Rosen wrote: >>> (Removed sfc from the cc-list, this seems out of scope for that WG.) >>> >>> In designing the BIER header, the BIER WG is free to mandate any value >>> it chooses in the first nibble. These values do not come from a >>> "first nibble" registry. >>> >>> It seems prudent to put a value like 5 for the following reasons: >>> >>> - If a BIER packet is being parsed by an off-line tool, this is a good >>> hint (though just a hint) that the packet is actually a BIER packet; >>> >>> - If a BIER packet is traveling through an MPLS tunnel, and it >>> traverses a node that does its MPLS load splitting by guessing at the >>> type of the payload, then this is a good hint that the MPLS payload >>> is not IPv4, IPv6, or PW. >>> >>> This strategy does incur a risk. Suppose IPv5 gets designed, >>> implemented, and deployed, and folks start to deploy hardware that >>> does MPLS load balancing by inspecting the IPv5 headers of the MPLS >>> payloads. If a BIER packet is traversing an MPLS tunnel, >>> inappropriate load splitting may occur if the hardware thinks the >>> payload is IPv5 rather than BIER. >>> >>> This particular risk doesn't seem very significant to me. >>> >>> Thus I don't think there's anything here that needs fixing. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mpls mailing list >>> mpls@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C211B12E1D8; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OSkgan7lnU3D; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16FF12E1C0; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u206so2742438wme.1; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rkGqqN+IaknXm6o/zvVPp/DYztSQXJ5AlMUyb8jMHOQ=; b=uS2jJKgZS1vkK4ik4Ep9HDmkBDZDVoPPMTuUikd86jIrLa4ogEXCedA8vRYWxA6IkO 7RM8ZNNF/H7rCowkuzILCxs9EKBEoOWFQj/TyWGpJYZ8Pp/UnJbHBKs1T+b6gPm+jcO/ nE8XKj6/3THYU7fxXKB20fcc7C7IkULZyagvP2eveP7mNxTMqGcxMkmE0DgaAMAOAVpN hdJVT1rgRN4+lMIrRVimk6is2/q1Naom9ixKmygHQ4N9mtuhXIcTnpCFkRz4avPAXMK1 0wiT7O/ZoRxHutLGwLnt8IyBIrXedZevw6UtCwHT+CMvSzr6QaB7TQ8BBSMc5ihXxRGl mNlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rkGqqN+IaknXm6o/zvVPp/DYztSQXJ5AlMUyb8jMHOQ=; b=hXR+bRW8gN01tr/alJ9HT881lmKHra0OYTlXzESXith0eFKEXTN2UiYTvCS7FyeFWh h2Vv9EfwvNZEXBtbeVdlKdUe6gtvsVBGRfT+tODNsqT3qyjRHqO7AAMnnio2NmS3Vi/3 98DzG2ucq9h6pPRP8xZ+1PW1d58aP+oBShhkuR8lO59y4eHlSUV1aNoLyMYZV6fU89R+ WxaASJ1nDKSZBbrjJvPj46m6M3F669khrDAXU5S4OfJtRFvqSQ+V/45OaJDggtm75503 hzdwpUzBckHmiVjOq0WQVOcbvVn0gEhyjJwRRI1zGY2qDhqVbOS7Mk+nQqj2nSbZsvTO BOYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FW8cZGSkis7lizDkrAW0YW4uaDTDYbbzEcolTWCQ5RTpFQGVBFh6UecC0qXfDvMRQ== X-Received: by 10.194.26.4 with SMTP id h4mr614172wjg.104.1460662306343; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm34749103wmy.17.2016.04.14.12.31.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:31:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <570FF01F.6090403@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:31:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Greg Mirsky Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:31:50 -0000 On 14/04/2016 14:20, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 4/14/2016 6:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: >> Stewart and all, >> I concur with Stewart that there is a strong case for 0 in the first >> nibble for all non-IP flows. >> >> As for the need for sub-typing: >> AFAIK quite a few implementations (including some HW-based packet >> processors) treat 0 in the first nibble after the label stack as an >> indication of an Ethernet PW. Well there will be Ethernet PWs not using the CW that can put any Ethernet address in the first nibble, so if there are Ethernet addresses that start with 5 they will look like BIER packets. >> >> Some of them go as far as to hash on the assumed L2 headers for ECMP. >> This causes serious problems, e.g., with the TDM PWs that could be >> reordered if handled by such packet processors in transit LSRs. >> >> This makes quite a case for sub-typing IMO regardless of BIER. >> At the same time, it seems that all the bits in CW structure are used >> - at least for some PW types in some cases. > > It seems to me that Sasha's reasoning supports the conclusion that it > is best to avoid 0 in the first nibble (even if this is not the > conclusion he drew!) I don't think sub-typing is a solution, because > it doesn't offer any protection against the behavior of existing > hardware. There is no truly safe position until we mandate that all deployed PWs use the CW, but that is not going to happen for a while. > > On 4/14/2016 5:31 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> The nibble value is recorded in the IP types registry >> and any wish to take another value really needs to be discussed >> with the INT area. > > Are you referring to the IP Version Number registry? (I am not aware > of an "IP types registry".) We're not asking for any modification to > that, since we're not doing another version of IP. I don't see any > need to get into one of those long and non-productive arguments that > the INT area seems to relish. > Sorry I meant version number. Before we assign a member of this very small number range to BIER, I would like some confidence that it will see any significant deployment. When PW took 0 and 1, it was already a widely deployed protocol. Stewart - Stewart From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E65612DFD9; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J6RoNUgjUEzk; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE28512DFB7; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id u206so2857827wme.1; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=J8lx4kqjWfOwH54VdrJNiT2tXtGfqC9nGMmR1W2LX3s=; b=bmhjquclwxmSuKgRPsntmrpNO0x2mDEwFN/TP5bHrfA+0752RoOxv0admxkxDGe/oH BHue6a5YBqXmtuHuPEGzIy0THkU036bIWkNcuvy2CqERvbfUXttv2efwBgh3B3fWl8Wt ixFXDh+a34gRkRqFpajuOK88jhfRsFcpV3H8eBAsZmloRY3/s8Ub9mKlqDtdXDV6UaKs PtPaQv5UDP69JAyCTHr4FCGskLzR7QFF524Yf7dbJpTAtuCfZhTxF92XPxC0NHWyBoKA C9ifpMXFHVycnvYfIR2tuHrgx4JocGd9VsuFApXpNlE05n4qLYmX//CeR9rEz0/92+sY 8PNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=J8lx4kqjWfOwH54VdrJNiT2tXtGfqC9nGMmR1W2LX3s=; b=Or0zVGWUHcrdv/3GO6oH7tDfHDnmQSOtCO11Pl3vc3QOciy0CJwJID3nmnyDJlyYWm H4fHZpqB4/uYMva0wAEwZWLezEyjq2LXta0Dj0y9tSftYdPTMSvAK0VrINMFhdhNhZyc fCJ8CMOYILySo/CWHSL+BMzeGHs/v18BnN2+ehnX+kUuQFQpsmEw1/sseHBfWD/GIy4U a8cKWCMNPAYK18OTtmw5NEOmi71mSPJ1yK1A82T8OFwBifkLfHqzaxDgYeuODNPUrYAp 6v0gfRLjldtDj+GFoHWb5axSSwV+mtSYSIaTgU+ZlwbNElwcOpn7T0eQR/w8WaazHwLZ guTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUilgoUPMTReZ5IZ+Z5HH75EJilVaDDHzgEMdIb01lBS570aVq5pt2H0zKo3Rx/xQ== X-Received: by 10.194.123.65 with SMTP id ly1mr17897143wjb.125.1460662510502; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dj8sm3999681wjc.28.2016.04.14.12.35.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <570FF0EB.6070106@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:35:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:35:13 -0000 On 14/04/2016 15:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi, > > Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly assigned with > PW. True, but PW caused then to be reserved so as to prevent future clashes. Stewart From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:37:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E127612E0EB; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmcEY_9FS4XW; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491F812DA58; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n3so2972446wmn.0; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vOBRWpNYAy66lSlgFdLCoAOyIbSOLXeoojpME7eKc7s=; b=c4y0+rJ4aYNs3+jSOVRlZBFyaM/VCSyplYHpjvhqm8Z07rZsxw2w6msOh5BDle8MwQ p1zx7vWAxqXmCI75UXFfGHdq6yV5kHrq+q0+lAhgULbl7abvuhSAygR8plrVbdO8xbli OWTeFGp3vXoHkR25C7HeM5VxgS6EvPGsJSdt6S96rMi3+cmtzr7ytJfkpeoZV167B/yO +biaZhd1XO1s9EMk5I4lRLzek1f9U+qU0o36ecr7ns+hxR4eIK0Kb/nKkkGQ+kaZqwpy H0gHJNyKsaw+gSHn353eHjNwr/VCqNZ1SdXCepxrnrgyUAVuFDv6xzLyWy4OSFZg5Tv9 SrWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vOBRWpNYAy66lSlgFdLCoAOyIbSOLXeoojpME7eKc7s=; b=m6lFHUiMHB4lCmayyQWcUDU+x5VApkDNJw4VaS2MtWyCYAjtW/+Pk6eNJWo9SRL79v ZDDCoJvngMXuy5pqCBX2ESDT600fC5DMhcrW78jxbQZtxvKJ4tCncTGKH5YF+akUM/lz 1i7DHyTEFlVEsFvJtgPXpX9ER07Z/VQ/dy1spmHUKO4TTvSc3kdVA48aALIKwaZ6AG2o Koq1nW62Dqn4zdflusBvg1DE6kpjJQg3OK1tE9D4/+e/viV5+glelVHw7xScYPS6pQCy 4aaFFbDY2GirqG6YVy3ihO4MrH6liqscbqJyExri5y4OYDRorlN5YpqcLOGrttFnunmt fTDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUYwREa1rj/iHWVgFuG3ApqoNbJNfud9zgp9n/9yWIpAPazcpUx0e5fWDUfO+au5g== X-Received: by 10.28.173.15 with SMTP id w15mr352947wme.32.1460662584821; Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ll9sm45495273wjc.29.2016.04.14.12.36.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:36:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Loa Andersson , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , Alexander Vainshtein References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0D53871C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <570BB266.8090608@juniper.net> <570F6374.6030406@gmail.com> <570F9901.2080406@juniper.net> <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <570FF136.7030600@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:36:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570FB333.5080509@pi.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:36:52 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] [mpls] [bier] The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:36:35 -0000 On 14/04/2016 16:11, Loa Andersson wrote: > > > /Loa > > On 2016-04-14 22:41, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Per IANA registry, 0-1 are ³Reserved² and so is not strictly assigned >> with >> PW. Something like a modified CW beneath LSE?. Further, BIER is >> hop-by-hop >> lookup based. So I think we donıt need to include this always. >> Instead, we >> could conditionally include this, if the next BFR is tunneled (not >> directly connected). >> >> The receiving node will use the label to identify the payload/FEC. So I >> think, the presence of modified CW should not confuse it with PW. Not quite Loa. It could be an Ethernet PW with no CW. Stewart From nobody Wed Apr 20 00:52:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9688D12ED05; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Udf4QIXIaSg6; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51BF312ECEF; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (unknown [122.53.41.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E40281802BDF; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:52:15 +0200 (CEST) To: "bier@ietf.org" , bier-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation@ietf.org From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <57173521.8030906@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:52:01 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] status of draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:52:22 -0000 WG, wg-charis, authors, I've re-read draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation and think it is ready for wglc! Anything that stops us from going ahead? Plese notify the mpls wg when the wglc is started. /Loa -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64