From nobody Mon Jul 3 04:35:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E0913157D; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 04:35:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149908171411.740.12839980820285632414@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 04:35:14 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 11:35:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : OSPF Extensions for BIER Authors : Peter Psenak Nagendra Kumar IJsbrand Wijnands Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Jeffrey Zhang Sam Aldrin Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related per-flow state. Neither does BIER require an explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. Such header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by the according set of bits set in BIER packet header. This document describes the OSPF protocol extension required for BIER with MPLS encapsulation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 3 14:22:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A6312EBFD for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GKg9d2k9SlSW for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0108.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CDA9127058 for ; 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If one looks at it that way, there is no interaction with the MVPN layer at all. To MVPN, it looks like the P-tunnels or default-MDTs/data-MDTs are created by PIM. The fact that the network core is acting like an NBMA data link is invisible to the application layer. Thus I don't really understand why sections 5 ("ASM") and 6 ("MVPN") are needed. There are a few questions that might deserve some more attention: - Part of the proposal is that the Join/Prune messages are unicast, using a BIER header with a single bit set in the BitString. That will certainly work, but it's an unusual way to create a unicast tunnel. I realize it does have the advantage of already including the BFIR-id in the encapsulation header. - Since the BIER edge routers are PIM neighbors of each other, it seems like they should be multicasting PIM Hellos to each other. (The draft doesn't really say how the BIER edge routers running PIM are expected to identify each other; once they do identify each other, multicasting Hellos using BIER should be simple.) - The lack of Join Suppression is worth at least mentioning. - There are various PIM procedures that may or may not need to be modified to deal with an NBMA data link: DR election, Assert, etc. If the usual PIM procedures need to be modified, that has to be discussed. (Even if they don't need to be modified, this should be discussed.) - When a data packet is received, is it necessary to do an RPF check against the BFIR-id? If so, then there is an issue of just what happens when a BFER (for a given data flow) changes from one tree to another (e.g., changes from the shared tree to the source tree); is the RPF check altered when a new Join is sent, or when the first data packet of the flow is received from the newly chosen tree, or somewhere in between? - Will this work with BIDIR-PIM, or is that out of scope? From nobody Mon Jul 3 15:07:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B22C13154D; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 15:07:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149911962555.16149.18220562584747883686.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 15:07:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:07:05 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not clear why this is experimental. What is the purpose or nature of the experiment? What does one hope to learn from the results? The document seems to go well beyond what I think of as architecture. Please consider clarifying that in the title and intro. From nobody Wed Jul 5 10:23:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59E0131DA3; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:23:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149927538373.13537.9199064503158854739.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:23:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:23:07 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a bit confused about the experimental status of this document as well, given that the other WG drafts that define protocol extensions to support BIER seem to be headed for the standards track. If what is documented here really is the only experimental part, this seems like the place to document the experiment. From nobody Wed Jul 5 10:24:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0C3131D4F; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:24:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=dz8xIFpN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lb/jum1I Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iHfmlfIfoycK; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C468131D93; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3B420A50; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:24:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=6tY44R7HbYOpl3PstB /w70qokOg1mIilIqG/cGSnaVE=; b=dz8xIFpN75ULli5zV729YryvOply3sY+aQ qtcZUa9GcQAp66pW0+iFTMCRe2i//4048UuPHVIJDBoTYqGmTaljBvX5qAQykd3S jPj2YZVzAtRC+loD7x++6NGOK2G85fEPuLwvdLWdUhtpB7g80rby4luvImuOjXLA U+/C6BwVVIx8unQX+Tf6GDkK1T7kQrdgnfLbDxq0rVUTJXsuxUMBkwuZ3uJJUptw +vV78x6QovM+rJSso3lA9nLP/GYdOL9BFVrvx9rLjCM0WYI/wYIqdSiVxEs/nhc8 LGH4cTYbBEtcF+LA8iZzQbgHYSWQYojvNjXiMya8/KUvqf8BP6uA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=6tY44R7HbYOpl3PstB/w70qokOg1mIilIqG/cGSnaVE=; b=lb/jum1I ika3kcpLWqORsNYQl4PdPGYf/SsNN5O3IJe5iE6h6QN8wyVecifHjHiMqQ/ufN6g 0hszlVOQ31acFHWxGOx2YxS/P5e9+sjZ+0cLXtx56ZTcj+IpPBSCHvDpSmUkycO7 EjVeHSjCDU9xun3kLVubeeH4cl1DAxm5V9rsVJQEEMBzqLsGPDcy1XblYVVE+pgQ WhXZsYDFpukoAY8h6FS/uhbAqlvfpQyuN44YNKodSmP4QI5AMQToD1qseiHiBjcl GrKIDMtls2nULQrawwNcSSsepantN5sjozmQDQw7QmVkzP/dQT6+kx5mJ0ECxH4v B8VlGPIVgxjE+g== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: FBlMYr5SFDy4jTkDbokHdlGJcUJUpB9r2DJO2bYfJmfs 1499275462 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8814.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.163]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DC8737E6EE; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <149838804788.3251.829139224134758886@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:24:19 -0400 Cc: gen-art , bier@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <149838804788.3251.829139224134758886@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Dan Romascanu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:24:27 -0000 Dan, thanks for your review. Authors, thanks for engaging with Dan=E2=80=99= s review. I have entered a No Objection ballot position. Alissa > On Jun 25, 2017, at 6:54 AM, Dan Romascanu wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Dan Romascanu > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just > like any other last call comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-bier-architecture-?? > Reviewer: Dan Romascanu > Review Date: 2017-06-25 > IETF LC End Date: 2017-06-29 > IESG Telechat date: 2017-07-06 >=20 > Summary: >=20 > This document specifies a new architecture known as "Bit Index = Explicit > Replication" (BIER) for the forwarding of multicast data packets = through a > "multicast domain". It does not require a protocol for explicitly = building > multicast distribution trees, nor does it require intermediate nodes = to > maintain any per-flow state. This architecture is . While the = Abstract and > Introduction of the document mentions Architecture as the principal = scope, this > document goes well beyond the scope of a typical architectural = document. > including detailed definitions of the procedures, terminology and = normative > algorithms required for BIER. >=20 > The document is clear and detailed. Because of its structure, I am = missing some > information that usually can be found in architecture documents. I = included > these in the 'minor issues' list. Although none of these may be a = show-stopper, > I believe that addressing these before document approval can improve = the > quality of the document and of the overall BIER work. >=20 > Major issues: >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > 1. As the document is targeting 'Experimental' it would be useful to = mention > what is the scope of the experiment. The charter actually says: >=20 > ' The scope of the experiment will be > documented in the output of the Working Group.' >=20 > Would not the Architecture document be the right place for this? If = not, is > there another document that deals or is planned to define the scope of = the > experiment? >=20 > 2. While the Abstract and Introduction of the document mentions = Architecture as > the principal scope, this document is different from a typical = architectural > document. While it defines well the procedures, terminology and = normative > algorithms required for BIER Intra-domain forwarding, it goes well = beyond the > level of detail that other similar documents go. Specifications of the > procedures and normative algorithm should be mentioned in Abstract and > Introduction, they occupy the same or more space than architecture. >=20 > 3. On the other hand I am missing the relationship with other work = items in the > BIER charter - there is no manageability section for example, there is = no > reference to the performance impact in networks. Maybe these are dealt = with in > a different document or documents or BIER, if so it would be good at = least to > mention and reference these here. >=20 > 4. I also would have expected the architecture document to refer the = use cases > document and note which of the use cases are being addressed and how - > draft-ietf-bier-use-cases is not even included in the references. >=20 > 5. Sections 3 to 6 mentioned repeatedly provisioning. As there is no = Operations > and Manageability section as in many other Routing Area documents, it = is not > clear how this is expected to happen. For example = draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang is > not mentioned or referred. I suggest adding a note (and maybe = references) for > clarity. >=20 > 6. In section 8 I found: >=20 > 'Every BFR must be provisioned to know which of its interfaces lead to > a BIER domain and which do not. If two interfaces lead to different > BIER domains, the BFR must be provisioned to know that those two > interfaces lead to different BIER domains. ' >=20 > It seems that the two 'must' in these sentences would rather be = capitalized. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Wed Jul 5 10:33:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606DC131D79; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozdJbb04maRZ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44B9C13013C; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c11so266851086wrc.3; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:33:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ShH10azF8DPSvXY8oNTs3Ntwhhu9msg8xnFuK6ctOSo=; b=Df84TpSSjHgOet4J07dQaSAAr8hEe4ZE1zG7jEC9q18Drh6s4Csvrm3CwnUbAoOG0b I0b6vuqfhs8sHiVnVxl6it9PWJfr7ZBqhC/yExzTtGA4Rfo/0VhkUkQfS01QvcOGN1Sr FPs6vHfF+tXdG+lVGUn4/A18q4H4jpuciz9gNBcDFqFlmbZ8/ghT+f6vrNOKiEVw86ZZ DrySBFMo1kfYcwFm4skFpSTjoaAxsvsFx8LQRRVi2wWkuOHX0fICzMtz8PoiIXdb7Vbm /euCsXqW5T3xb7klobH4KdsxwD/d+jLtf1y2pQGnjOhDhlyfb0WuRg7KUIc0T/vSoH+e LXPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ShH10azF8DPSvXY8oNTs3Ntwhhu9msg8xnFuK6ctOSo=; b=M0V+6LvECAgE6wbbVpQxKH0nOChYAoDLNyxzGLBBqYKiueVsVJXXqscWV1Wk9KXzb1 luYZiSuHfPcwKM9X7ecliclfq1w0gGPplKU0l0xdvU7a+YyZyrvs+0ENa1IAxnoVK+yU hVzCWEJJf49q9m9kEhwr1bf3oZTHwHpcJ3p5wDG6/BnRxIkayeAFhDpuqpvZI7cQ9EV9 DCVYR0epjUcej35Zs+UIULBjECV3SCb5EYr3m0pvSSrTVGlpqStCoK7bna4oONGCP9FK mPDlMHwto7F4+5u+pEJbs1JHMsaQ6Yvq6BxGWoniN7ZW3MChzYyIJKR4qoTp9cBUsAdO kBfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOy0aXcd3maf2oqVnS9UA0LaHEBy6rK+2NgeI3hT5m6p5Te3+OXC Hp67UV4ZJFVM+5vyWmDYVYnHsdsQd5G2 X-Received: by 10.223.133.99 with SMTP id 90mr41798046wrh.44.1499275985665; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.130.179 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <149927538373.13537.9199064503158854739.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <149927538373.13537.9199064503158854739.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:33:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d293e8bc67f0553956476" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:33:10 -0000 --94eb2c0d293e8bc67f0553956476 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The entire WG is chartered as Experimental. There is a document in the charter (item 9) to justify progressing this work onto the Standards Track. The protocol extension drafts are going to be Experimental for now as well. This is precisely at the narrow point of the hourglass - a multicast encapsulation to go with IP. Regards, Alia On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm a bit confused about the experimental status of this document as well, > given that the other WG drafts that define protocol extensions to support > BIER > seem to be headed for the standards track. If what is documented here > really is > the only experimental part, this seems like the place to document the > experiment. > > > --94eb2c0d293e8bc67f0553956476 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The entire WG is chartered as Experimental.=C2=A0 There is= a document in the charter (item 9) to justify progressing this work onto t= he Standards Track.=C2=A0 The protocol extension drafts are going to be Exp= erimental for now as well. This is precisely at the narrow point of the hou= rglass - a multicast encapsulation to go with IP. =C2=A0

Regards,
Alia

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@= cooperw.in> wrote:
Alissa C= ooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<= wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-bier-architecture/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
COMMENT:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

I'm a bit confused about the experimental status of this document as we= ll,
given that the other WG drafts that define protocol extensions to support B= IER
seem to be headed for the standards track. If what is documented here reall= y is
the only experimental part, this seems like the place to document the
experiment.



--94eb2c0d293e8bc67f0553956476-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 10:59:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FF6131563; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 10:59:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Warren Kumari To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149927756613.15707.13754544986148742324.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:59:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:59:26 -0000 Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with Ben, but feel more strongly than him - why is this Experimental? Where is the experiment / how do you determine if it is successful? The shepherd writeup says: "(1) Experimental, as per charter. The document title page header indicates experimental. ", but this doesn't really answer the question; the charter says: "BIER is initially chartered to do experimental work on this new multicast forwarding mechanism as follows: 1) BIER architecture: The WG will publish an architecture, based upon draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04...." I really think that this document should be Informational or PS, or something. I can understand the *work* to be experimental in nature, but the document *itself* seems like it shouldn't be - it doesn't (really) explain how to implement. I'm making this a DISCUSS, but am more than happy to clear if the chairs / AD says that the've considered this and Experimental really is best. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes: Section 1: "If the packet also needs to be sent to a BFER whose BFR-id is 257, the BFIR would have to create a second copy of the packet, and the BIER encapsulation would specify an SI of 1, and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear." - while reading this it seemed to me that it would be much simpler to do away with the SI completely and just make the BitString N bits longer (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate this and have a 3 octet BitString). It was only when I got down to Section 3 that I discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a different BitString length. I'd suggest adding a refernce (like: "and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear (see Section 3 for more details)." Section 4.1. The Routing Underlay: "Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A reference for Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page at: Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html Please note: I'd pay good money for a router doing Steiner optimizations using the soap and surface tension trick. Nits and notes: 1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Router" (BFR)." -- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had interesting history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) - http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A 2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multicast data though the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you meant "through" :-) 3: Section 6.1. Overview "If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies. O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma. I suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better. Section 6.9. When Some Nodes do not Support BIER "In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based IGP that computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the domain." C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", but I'm not sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the shortest path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a singular tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this is a nit and I can move on :-) Section 6.10.3. Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another Typo: Dispostion -> Disposition From nobody Wed Jul 5 11:11:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B1E131D80; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 11:10:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4t18HpsnoJnY; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 11:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E801312EBF9; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id k67so266541550wrc.2; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kJn+UWXdSoSaHMBDMT0uEqlp1fzyvFudSkiIZtZbi8A=; b=q8nWDTkKc0vAGB/wmfyfhQ8e8YsCe07c7NoFNDq0d2WcAYHnfJluUUGwXj449PWZwP InjfczE/rr2V1Y5tMYWj10gqvI3peL2/B3sOp6OtvRkOvifG48ax947D+vYm0PlqWEVT fDfie5MblV1sHsUisgUFQ/cUi/dT1ishTgUSOxJIwXLi31C9A4QDO2wYMqlHuY1Reyu3 nQ4YiVWFLs0urxWwcrtwhQSBEUCo2DoC8sm2fMz9xs+jPH8RBmWIq1nPey0YczifpMqT zbmTo5cxKvJ6NDDd+V3jHieTWsoIwp0l3u0MqCjShHLdS7UGu36O7B4RWniYm5GGjKzg 7rRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kJn+UWXdSoSaHMBDMT0uEqlp1fzyvFudSkiIZtZbi8A=; b=KODp0RT51Pryc0+ONZl/9+9Jbq6F4b5qUPqcCwhuJ/cbpPTXvCH4AuMFz6yWt+mFwO WIBLImVUQqZE5aRAuJ6F3LDuu4RzekadK8hArUVDrRttSlDuxQeBNOSUMYXESLjft30/ XdRH4Guj0twsXPhVkgba6jpltKtoHgkxDUQX2C5E6mcfjT8Vor8U/+FOgY0u3go+pcQ1 yC52ZHjWKH/6fZ6dHi9lMuT1HUEFafnShl0VqEYRnpvHqM9sQqDHwK+De+EeckXrKle8 bSBfBwyBYZc1ulP6QX3YsbTeaRXDttSu5t4PgkPrwgqSP9uru41FhiNcO8fiLlp9+GId AIHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOyeN9WXetjtKQJ6FmHDLnGWMFaO2rtwoTx9H83dPQtUUFmrT8hA 0ZPVkjjo1xVqnWJGqegIJwBrIJrPHg== X-Received: by 10.223.179.193 with SMTP id x1mr31147237wrd.86.1499278254338; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.130.179 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 11:10:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <149927756613.15707.13754544986148742324.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <149927756613.15707.13754544986148742324.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:10:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304389718c50410055395ebb3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 18:11:00 -0000 --f40304389718c50410055395ebb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Warren, On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: > Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with Ben, but feel more strongly than him - why is this > Experimental? > Where is the experiment / how do you determine if it is successful? The > shepherd writeup says: "(1) Experimental, as per charter. The document > title > page header indicates experimental. ", but this doesn't really answer the > question; the charter says: "BIER is initially chartered to do experimental > work on this new multicast forwarding mechanism as follows: > > 1) BIER architecture: The WG will publish an architecture, based > upon draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04...." > > I really think that this document should be Informational or PS, or > something. > I can understand the *work* to be experimental in nature, but the document > *itself* seems like it shouldn't be - it doesn't (really) explain how to > implement. > The document is defining a novel look-up and forwarding mechanism to use for multicast that replaces longest-prefix-match used for unicast. This is where it is defined. That needs to experimental or standards track. In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on deployment experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental to Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether it was merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the narrow point of the IP hourglass. If the IESG wants to discuss whether it makes sense to recharter in the absence of deployment experience such that BIER will need to be considered for the Internet architecture moving forwards, I am certainly willing to have that discussion. I did discuss with the BIER WG that it is possible to do a status update to move a document from Experimental to Proposed Standard without needing to update the RFC. That is what I would anticipate happening with this document and others (in my queue and soon to be in ours) if and when BIER is rechartered to do Standards Track work. Regards, Alia > I'm making this a DISCUSS, but am more than happy to clear if the chairs / > AD > says that the've considered this and Experimental really is best. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Notes: > Section 1: > "If the packet also needs to be sent to a BFER whose BFR-id is 257, the > BFIR > would have to create a second copy of the packet, and the BIER > encapsulation > would specify an SI of 1, and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other > bits > clear." - while reading this it seemed to me that it would be much simpler > to > do away with the SI completely and just make the BitString N bits longer > (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate > this > and have a 3 octet BitString). It was only when I got down to Section 3 > that I > discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a > different BitString length. I'd suggest adding a refernce (like: "and a > BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear (see Section 3 for > more > details)." > > Section 4.1. The Routing Underlay: > "Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a > multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A reference > for > Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page > at: > Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html Please note: I'd pay good > money > for a router doing Steiner optimizations using the soap and surface tension > trick. > > Nits and notes: > 1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Router" > (BFR)." > -- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had > interesting > history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) - > http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A > > 2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the > type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multicast data though > the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you meant > "through" :-) > 3: Section 6.1. Overview > "If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and > BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies. > > O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, > it > of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to > the > multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma. I > suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow > overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better. > > Section 6.9. When Some Nodes do not Support BIER > "In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based IGP > that > computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the > domain." > C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", but I'm not > sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the shortest > path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a > singular > tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this > is a > nit and I can move on :-) > > Section 6.10.3. Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another > Typo: Dispostion -> Disposition > > > --f40304389718c50410055395ebb3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Warren,

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Warren Kumari &= lt;warren@kumari.net= > wrote:
Warren Kumari has = entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<= wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-bier-architecture/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

I agree with Ben, but feel more strongly than him - why is this Experimenta= l?
Where is the experiment / how do you determine if it is successful? The
shepherd writeup says: "(1) Experimental, as per charter. The document= title
page header indicates experimental. ", but this doesn't really ans= wer the
question; the charter says: "BIER is initially chartered to do experim= ental
work on this new multicast forwarding mechanism as follows:

1) BIER architecture: The WG will publish an architecture, based
upon draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04...."

I really think that this document should be Informational or PS, or somethi= ng.
I can understand the *work* to be experimental in nature, but the document<= br> *itself* seems like it shouldn't be - it doesn't (really) explain h= ow to
implement.

The document is defining a n= ovel look-up and forwarding mechanism to use for
multicast that r= eplaces longest-prefix-match used for unicast.=C2=A0 This is where it is
defined.=C2=A0 That needs to experimental or standards track.
=

In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document b= ased on deployment
experience that can justify moving the BIER wo= rk from Experimental to Standards
Track.=C2=A0 When I chartered t= he WG, it wasn't clear whether it was merely a good idea
or a= good idea with enough motivations towards deployment that it is worth comp= licating
the architecture at the narrow point of the IP hourglass= .

If the IESG wants to discuss whether it makes se= nse to recharter in the absence of
deployment experience such tha= t BIER will need to be considered for the Internet
architecture m= oving forwards, I am certainly willing to have that discussion.
<= br>
I did discuss with the BIER WG that it is possible to do a st= atus update to move a
document from Experimental to Proposed Stan= dard without needing to update the RFC.
That is what I would anti= cipate happening with this document and others (in my queue
and s= oon to be in ours) if and when BIER is rechartered to do Standards Track wo= rk.=C2=A0

Regards,
Alia
=C2=A0=
I'm making this a DISCUSS, but am more than happy to clear if the chair= s / AD
says that the've considered this and Experimental really is best.


-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
COMMENT:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Notes:
Section 1:
"If the packet also needs to be sent to a BFER whose BFR-id is 257, th= e BFIR
would have to create a second copy of the packet, and the BIER encapsulatio= n
would specify an SI of 1, and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other = bits
clear." - while reading this it seemed to me that it would be much sim= pler to
do away with the SI completely and just make the BitString N bits longer (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate th= is
and have a 3 octet BitString). It was only when I got down to Section 3 tha= t I
discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a
different BitString length. I'd suggest adding a refernce (like: "= and a
BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear (see Section 3 for mo= re
details)."

Section 4.1.=C2=A0 The Routing Underlay:
"Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a
multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A refer= ence for
Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page a= t:
Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web = Resource.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html = Please note: I'd pay good money
for a router doing Steiner optimizations using the soap and surface tension=
trick.

Nits and notes:
1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Ro= uter" (BFR)."
-- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had interesti= ng
history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) -
http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/= Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A

2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multica= st data though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you = meant "through" :-)
3: Section 6.1.=C2=A0 Overview
"If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and=
BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies.

O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow over= lay, it
of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a p= acket to the
multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma= . I
suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flo= w
overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better.

Section 6.9.=C2=A0 When Some Nodes do not Support BIER
"In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based = IGP that
computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the doma= in."
C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", bu= t I'm not
sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the short= est
path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a singu= lar
tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this i= s a
nit and I can move on :-)

Section 6.10.3.=C2=A0 Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another
Typo:=C2=A0 Dispostion ->=C2=A0 Disposition



--f40304389718c50410055395ebb3-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 12:23:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9295131479; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 12:22:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Warren Kumari To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149928257588.22631.11073122843340523128.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:22:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:22:56 -0000 Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [ After response from Alia I'm clearing my discuss. I still somewhat feel that an Architecture document which discusses an experimental protocol / idea doesn't need to be Experimental itself, but a: I don't feel it very strongly / could be wrong, and b: her "I did discuss with the BIER WG that it is possible to do a status update to move a document from Experimental to Proposed Standard without needing to update the RFC." makes me happy. I'm copying my original discuss comment below for hysterical raisins. ] Notes: Section 1: "If the packet also needs to be sent to a BFER whose BFR-id is 257, the BFIR would have to create a second copy of the packet, and the BIER encapsulation would specify an SI of 1, and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear." - while reading this it seemed to me that it would be much simpler to do away with the SI completely and just make the BitString N bits longer (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate this and have a 3 octet BitString). It was only when I got down to Section 3 that I discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a different BitString length. I'd suggest adding a refernce (like: "and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other bits clear (see Section 3 for more details)." Section 4.1. The Routing Underlay: "Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A reference for Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page at: Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html Please note: I'd pay good money for a router doing Steiner optimizations using the soap and surface tension trick. Nits and notes: 1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Router" (BFR)." -- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had interesting history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) - http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A 2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multicast data though the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you meant "through" :-) 3: Section 6.1. Overview "If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies. O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma. I suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better. Section 6.9. When Some Nodes do not Support BIER "In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based IGP that computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the domain." C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", but I'm not sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the shortest path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a singular tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this is a nit and I can move on :-) Section 6.10.3. Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another Typo: Dispostion -> Disposition ------ ORIGINAL DISCUSS TEXT ---- I agree with Ben, but feel more strongly than him - why is this Experimental? Where is the experiment / how do you determine if it is successful? The shepherd writeup says: "(1) Experimental, as per charter. The document title page header indicates experimental. ", but this doesn't really answer the question; the charter says: "BIER is initially chartered to do experimental work on this new multicast forwarding mechanism as follows: 1) BIER architecture: The WG will publish an architecture, based upon draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04...." I really think that this document should be Informational or PS, or something. I can understand the *work* to be experimental in nature, but the document *itself* seems like it shouldn't be - it doesn't (really) explain how to implement. I'm making this a DISCUSS, but am more than happy to clear if the chairs / AD says that the've considered this and Experimental really is best. 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And the encapsulations (at least, those specified in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation) support only certain sizes. If your hardware supports only a BitStringLength of 256, and you have 257 BFERs, you can't just say, "hey let's use a longer BitString". Even if your hardware supports the next larger BitStringLength, 512, you might not want to use a BitStringLength of 512 when you only have 257 BFERs. > (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate this > and have a 3 octet BitString). A 3-octet BitString would allow you to identify 24 BFERs (3*8), whereas a 1-octet SI and a 2-octet BitString allow you to identify 4096 BFERs (256*16). BTW, the BitStringLengths that are envisioned are all larger than two octets. I wouldn't expect to see less than 64 bits, and 256 is more likely. > It was only when I got down to Section 3 that I > discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a > different BitString length. Sub-domains can have different BitStringLengths, the SI is relative to a single sub-domain. The fact that sub-domains can have different BitStringLengths may be useful if you have hardware that supports multiple BitStringLengths, but that's really orthogonal to whether the SI is needed. > "Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a > multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A reference for > Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page at: > Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html I think it is probably best to remove the mention of Steiner trees and instead just say that the routing underlay could be some sort of multicast tree. From nobody Wed Jul 5 13:49:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C3E131DDF for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xqio5CBH9Z93 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x231.google.com (mail-ua0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17359131DDA for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x231.google.com with SMTP id g40so385769uaa.3 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oQ8lBvo36EuwAt/wWZnYPdOovwnaoAP4t2tcSNEHR5k=; b=wEndIurSPXbZIesTdKsSDwrLFCJX2b0cCsFqOOwIzws77S2ClR+fwLhsI1WkmNJc+Y I/8sRzxNxXp2bLVdOcQWE4P9gyuS00BPzbiIer2iFthgMAHTO5oLOcOr4EZeB1Lua4Zb cmUlpUi1DyroJs790nNjZ2kRPz51oPyX6Mwh17/m1U650hLw1fPRkqBYKUhLVBBV5j0l 2a4eYoRHCwC3HUy8VwoXC/IFg38wzW5FfoDmHu0vssJPJJ23KJB3Ss0coFxM0liFc8zL OfSLDdRhYno2KmxzXUkZ/QpOsYMr/HROpc14PJ4idgSnVvfWuidpgoxQsV2LfmLUcCVM QRbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oQ8lBvo36EuwAt/wWZnYPdOovwnaoAP4t2tcSNEHR5k=; b=eUfgm6fdx1lx6kkKUJesK2TNWiIlEEqKZBj4X6Zj0HB/5KatoTE5r+NEWTZlioMw8l F1Rq/RQuNn7oYWdNivrow9Sj0e+tO5mLGUs6puNqiySRptVx7falLnu9farLMkUdXhHS Qg0QiRP56UbmtkKH/SV0yBDhF6Z1gwNCSGCwlOm8//kiRMwSji2/A9KthHD2fNDuE/PP 1EGkfwv8Qia1hqoR5YycyK5z3Xfwzvqum1G16eyTgJOTS9Nzue0QxvQ8mTeatBos/taB SOuZAdaO3WPeyKKX+45PxDqEMF3iOrGzU6+0YwWWhO4HsyfP/kJtT14i4qjpfTHVkZ+L ysWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOxfoyEZNFSHhQXfhVudf/+ZaKKQxbA5Pqv/r6/02pk4kHwa0JI/ BXPzmnzFZoFmgmGUIog+sjPmAlO9PHwd X-Received: by 10.159.59.93 with SMTP id j29mr24595454uah.155.1499287759909; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:49:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.39.165 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <46b9c2e5-f4dc-7fbd-7b6b-72de693af9ae@juniper.net> References: <149928257588.22631.11073122843340523128.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <46b9c2e5-f4dc-7fbd-7b6b-72de693af9ae@juniper.net> From: Warren Kumari Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:48:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric C Rosen Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 20:49:25 -0000 On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 7/5/2017 3:22 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: >> >> Notes: >> Section 1: >> "If the packet also needs to be sent to a BFER whose BFR-id is 257, the >> BFIR >> would have to create a second copy of the packet, and the BIER >> encapsulation >> would specify an SI of 1, and a BitString with bit 1 set and all the other >> bits >> clear." - while reading this it seemed to me that it would be much simpler >> to >> do away with the SI completely and just make the BitString N bits longer > > > The size of the BitString is really determined by the capabilities of the > forwarding hardware. Oh. Yeah, that is obvious (now :-)). > And the encapsulations (at least, those specified in > draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation) support only certain sizes. If your > hardware supports only a BitStringLength of 256, and you have 257 BFERs, you > can't just say, "hey let's use a longer BitString". Even if your hardware > supports the next larger BitStringLength, 512, you might not want to use a > BitStringLength of 512 when you only have 257 BFERs. > >> (instead of having e.g a one octet SI and 2 octet BitString, concatenate >> this >> and have a 3 octet BitString). > > > A 3-octet BitString would allow you to identify 24 BFERs (3*8), whereas a > 1-octet SI and a 2-octet BitString allow you to identify 4096 BFERs > (256*16). BTW, the BitStringLengths that are envisioned are all larger than > two octets. I wouldn't expect to see less than 64 bits, and 256 is more > likely. > >> It was only when I got down to Section 3 that I >> discovered that this is (kinda) discussed, and that each SI can have a >> different BitString length. > > > Sub-domains can have different BitStringLengths, the SI is relative to a > single sub-domain. The fact that sub-domains can have different > BitStringLengths may be useful if you have hardware that supports multiple > BitStringLengths, but that's really orthogonal to whether the SI is needed. > >> "Alternatively, one could deploy a routing underlay that creates a >> multicast-specific tree of some sort, perhaps a Steiner tree." A reference >> for >> Steiner trees would be nice -- best I could find was probably the WA page >> at: >> Weisstein, Eric W. "Steiner Tree." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. >> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerTree.html > > > I think it is probably best to remove the mention of Steiner trees and > instead just say that the routing underlay could be some sort of multicast > tree. Awww. I really wanted a router with a big bucket of water and some soap, but your solutiuon works too. Thanks, W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Wed Jul 5 19:02:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74BE129ADD; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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15.1.1240.6; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 02:02:12 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0501MB1438.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5176:9694:c647:6444]) by DM2PR0501MB1438.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5176:9694:c647:6444%14]) with mapi id 15.01.1240.013; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 02:02:11 +0000 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Warren Kumari , Eric Rosen CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org" , Greg Shepherd , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHS9cQbbs6vuPvgwkCMIWQ34yNVyaJFqU4AgAALUoD//9rNgA== Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 02:02:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149928257588.22631.11073122843340523128.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <46b9c2e5-f4dc-7fbd-7b6b-72de693af9ae@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 authentication-results: kumari.net; dkim=none (message not signed) 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5W5pHVbUPDb4JhzxNS19l+qEd/J5JCltxTnzfkZxoqVozMgA4j3LR5g1LupHBUMJ6c8h zcBhg0quelMYO6BmA6CwwJqqhjKfPNufglYVuk/tzZCBeJ+9ChdtrSOFX5JV9HkdA605 f0+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOzUTJmE+gm5CMm6ZW0DbifRL7NTtVtMmo7DY5kCub4DrQJTFZyR smH5d0YW3pJC4NNgBqIiggptOVDFlTf/1/w= X-Received: by 10.80.137.45 with SMTP id e42mr24006708ede.67.1499306836604; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:07:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.183.131 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 19:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c107667bdaf05539c930c" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Early allocation points for ISIS draft ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:07:19 -0000 --f403045c107667bdaf05539c930c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Amanda Baber via RT < iana-prot-param-comment@iana.org> wrote: > Tony, Alia, draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions authors: > > In accordance with the IS-IS-specific procedure established in RFC 7370, > we've added the following early allocation to the IS-IS Sub-TLVs for TLVs > 135, 235, 236, and 237 registry: > > Type: 32 > Description: BIER Info (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-07-05, expires > 2018-07-05) > 135: y > 235: y > 236: y > 237: y > Reference: [draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions] > > Best regards, > > Amanda Baber > Lead IANA Services Specialist > thanks -- tony --f403045c107667bdaf05539c930c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On= Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Amanda Baber via RT=C2=A0&l= t;ian= a-prot-param-comment@iana.org>=C2=A0wrote:
Tony, Alia, draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions authors:

In accor= dance with the IS-IS-specific procedure established in RFC 7370, we've = added the following early allocation to the IS-IS Sub-TLVs for TLVs 135, 23= 5, 236, and 237 registry:

Type: 32
Description: BIER Info (TEMPOR= ARY - registered 2017-07-05, expires 2018-07-05)
135: y
235: y
236= : y
237: y
Reference: [draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions]

B= est regards,

Amanda Baber
Lead IANA Services Specialist


thanks=C2=A0

=
-- tony=C2=A0
--f403045c107667bdaf05539c930c-- From nobody Thu Jul 6 03:19:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA97129AD2; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 03:19:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149933636848.22745.8471715109955096421.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 03:19:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-bier-architecture-07=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 10:19:29 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I also initially expected that this document should be informational because it specifies an architecture, however, will reading I realized that is rather specifies abstract mechanisms and a data model. So it's basically an abstract protocol spec without defining the on the wire format. Maybe it would be helpful to describe the content of this document this way, rather than speaking of an architecture. However, I guess the word architecture is rather board though. Thanks for a well-written doc; especially the ECMP part is very clear! From nobody Thu Jul 6 06:14:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDEC131752; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 06:13:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Benoit Claise To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org, victor@jvknet.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149934683636.2270.10065032311656213669.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 06:13:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 13:13:56 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. I want to come back to the experimental status. I have seen Alia's reply: In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on deployment experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental to Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether it was merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the narrow point of the IP hourglass. >From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already: The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current implementations. Operator feedback indicates there are at least two implementations currently, with others in the works. There are currently five vendors collaborating on the work in the IETF. However, I've not been following the specifications development and implementation to provide a definitive answer. At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for a successful experiment. Implementations (RFC7942?)? two interop implementations? hardware implementation? "deployment experience" (to cite the charter text)? impact analysis? something else? The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc. A reference to the charter Item 9 would be a good start. Examples: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7360#section-1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7499#section-2 2. operations and management section I'm sure there are such considerations: - configuration - sub-domain management - BFR-id management - adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain - logging - troubleshooting - OAM - etc. There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: chartered item 6 and 7. There are some management sentences, from time to time, in the doc. Ex: avoiding a second copy is an important from an operational point of view It is generally advantageous to assign the BFR-ids of a given sub- domain so that as many BFERs as possible can be represented in a single bit string. ... In order to minimize the number of copies that must be made of a given multicast packet, it is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-ids be assigned "densely" (see Section 2) from the numbering space... Btw, I guess you meant: assigned densely per subdomain, right? What this "operations and management section" should contain is the points that operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An architecture document is typically the first document people will read. RFC 5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the answers at this point in time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Each BFR MUST be assigned a single "BFR-Prefix" for each sub-domain to which it belongs. A BFR's BFR-Prefix MUST be an IP address (either IPv4 or IPv6) of the BFR. It is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-prefix be a loopback address of the BFR. Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, except that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's not called a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable - Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What about anycast/unicast? End of section 4 you have an example about MVPN over ingress/egress PEs. Some multicast packets would take BIER encap, while others packets would take a different encap From a troubleshooting point of view, does it make sense (is it even allowed) to send non multicast traffic over BIER. Victor Kuarsing performed the OPS-DIR review, copied below. Discussion is ongoing. First, there were no textual changes recommended as part of this review. The document seems to be well written and had undergone previous review/updates. Given the nature of this document, there are limited operational specific points made as part of this review however three points are noted for follow-up with the actors. (1). Security Considerations It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use case is addressed as noted. I was no able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts on how to do this with BIER. (2). SPF assumed. I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing fabrics which don’t use a traditional IGP. These networks use all BGP (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be address with BIER as it’s currently outlined, or would additional considerations be needed? I reviewed the “draft-ietf-bier-use-cases” document and did not see text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described above. (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was described. So my question is, would an operational model which required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C broadcast feed to be “pinned” to the egress router/device to allow for fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level detection and re-routing is not sufficient). 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/6/2017 9:13 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 1. I want to come back to the experimental status. The status of the document is a political issue that should not impact the content of the document. > > I have seen Alia's reply: > > In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on deployment > experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental to > Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether it was > merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards > deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the narrow > point of the IP hourglass. > > >From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already: > > The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current implementations. > Operator feedback indicates there are at least two implementations > currently, with others in the works. There are currently five vendors > collaborating on the work in the IETF. > > However, I've not been following the specifications development and > implementation to provide a definitive answer. > > At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for a > successful experiment. > Implementations (RFC7942?)? > two interop implementations? > hardware implementation? > "deployment experience" (to cite the charter text)? > impact analysis? > something else? > > The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc. The above is all entirely outside the scope of this document. > 2. operations and management section > I'm sure there are such considerations: > - configuration > - sub-domain management > - BFR-id management > - adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain > - logging > - troubleshooting > - OAM > - etc. I am unaware of any RFC that requires such a section to be included in a document like this. These topics are outside the scope of this document. > There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: > chartered item 6 and 7. These are outside the scope of the architecture document. > There are some management sentences, from time to time, > in the doc. Ex: avoiding a second copy is an important from an operational > point of view > > It is generally advantageous to assign the BFR-ids of a given sub- > domain so that as many BFERs as possible can be represented in a > single bit string. > > ... > > In order to minimize the number of copies that must be made of a > given multicast packet, it is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-ids be > assigned "densely" (see Section 2) from the numbering space... > > Btw, I guess you meant: assigned densely per subdomain, right? Correct, I'll add some clarifying text. > > What this "operations and management section" should contain is the points that > operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An > architecture document is typically the first document people will read. RFC > 5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I > understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the answers at > this point in time. This would be the topic for a different document. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - Each BFR MUST be assigned a single "BFR-Prefix" for each sub-domain > to which it belongs. A BFR's BFR-Prefix MUST be an IP address > (either IPv4 or IPv6) of the BFR. It is RECOMMENDED that the > BFR-prefix be a loopback address of the BFR. > > Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, except > that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's not called > a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable > > - Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What about > anycast/unicast? You could use BIER to do a unicast, by setting only one bit in the BitString. However, there are other more efficient encapsulations for unicast tunnels. > End of section 4 you have an example about MVPN over > ingress/egress PEs. Some multicast packets would take BIER encap, while others > packets would take a different encap I'm not sure what you're referring to. > From a troubleshooting point of view, does > it make sense (is it even allowed) to send non multicast traffic over BIER. > > Victor Kuarsing performed the OPS-DIR review, copied below. Discussion is > ongoing. Attached are my reply to Victor and his response. I did make a few changes in response to his comments, but the latest revision has not been posted yet. > > First, there were no textual changes recommended as part of this > review. The document seems to be well written and had undergone > previous review/updates. Given the nature of this document, there are > limited operational specific points made as part of this review > however three points are noted for follow-up with the actors. > > (1). Security Considerations > > It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the > BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid > certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I > may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein > (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference > where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into > the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets > (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that > attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this > (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to > set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. > set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create > the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use > case is addressed as noted. > > I was no able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized > incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue > from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are > methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not > introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts > on how to do this with BIER. > > (2). SPF assumed. > > I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say > in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard > IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing > fabrics which don’t use a traditional IGP. These networks use all BGP > (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce > the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may > not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system > information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be > address with BIER as it’s currently outlined, or would additional > considerations be needed? > > I reviewed the “draft-ietf-bier-use-cases” document and did not see > text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described > above. > > (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) > > I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), > that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was > described. So my question is, would an operational model which > required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally > two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as > described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two > sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each > packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). > This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C > broadcast feed to be “pinned” to the egress router/device to allow for > fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level > detection and re-routing is not sufficient). > > --------------6033769A55711F9B97E358B2 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Attached Message" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message" Received: from BY2PR05MB2183.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.162.230.159) by CY1PR05MB2187.namprd05.prod.outlook.com with HTTPS via BLUPR19CA0021.NAMPRD19.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 15:13:00 +0000 Authentication-Results: juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;juniper.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received: from [172.29.39.106] (66.129.241.11) by BY2PR05MB2183.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.112.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1240.6; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 15:12:57 +0000 Subject: Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 To: Victor Kuarsingh , Warren Kumari , Benoit Claise , ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas References: From: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <64d0754b-d763-f080-c1df-cd82c30742fc@juniper.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:12:53 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Exchange-Organization-Network-Message-Id: 185db8f2-e52e-4563-49af-08d4bfca7e5e X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: BY2PR05MB2183.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthMechanism: 06 X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.11] X-ClientProxiedBy: DM5PR0101CA0004.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.174.180.17) To BY2PR05MB2183.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.112.11) Return-Path: erosen@juniper.net X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 185db8f2-e52e-4563-49af-08d4bfca7e5e X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(300000500095)(300135000095)(300000501095)(300135300095)(22001)(300000502095)(300135100095)(300000503095)(300135400095)(48565401081)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(300000504095)(300135200095)(300000505095)(300135600095)(300000506095)(300135500095);SRVR:BY2PR05MB2183; 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Security Considerations > > > It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the > BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid > certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I > may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein > (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference > where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into > the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets > (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that > attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this > (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to > set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. > set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create > the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use > case is addressed as noted. The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. I can say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encapsulated packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add that certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits in the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). > I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized > incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue > from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are > methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not > introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts > on how to do this with BIER. The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead outside the domain. I'm not sure what else one would do. > > > (2). SPF assumed. > > > I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say > in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard > IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing > fabrics which don’t use a traditional IGP. These networks use all BGP > (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce > the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may > not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system > information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be > address with BIER as it’s currently outlined, or would additional > considerations be needed? With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to use BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes) that is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions. I don't think anything explicit needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IGP-based distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text there that requires the control plane to be IGP-based. In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "routing underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear that all the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-id to BFR-prefix to set of next hops. Some of the techniques discussed for tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed neighbors do assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional. So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to be added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing underlays. I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that OSPF/IS-IS are not portrayed as strict requirements. > I reviewed the “draft-ietf-bier-use-cases” document and did not see > text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described > above. I won't comment on the "use cases" document. > > > (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) > > > I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), > that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was > described. So my question is, would an operational model which > required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally > two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as > described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two > sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each > packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). > This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C > broadcast feed to be “pinned” to the egress router/device to allow for > fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level > detection and re-routing is not sufficient). If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and each ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing to stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the same set of egress points. The egress node would have to be able to tell when it was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy as the one to forward further. The BIER encapsulations (not described in the architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes this possible. If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress node could switch to the other flow. How it determines when to do this is outside the scope of BIER, of course. If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through the network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other. This would require two sub-domains. This really becomes a network design issue, but could certainly be handled by BIER. So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these cases, but BIER is only a piece of the solution. --------------6033769A55711F9B97E358B2 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Attached Message" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message" Received: from SN1PR05MB2192.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.162.230.167) by CY1PR05MB2187.namprd05.prod.outlook.com with HTTPS via BLUPR19CA0029.NAMPRD19.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 15:22:20 +0000 Received: from BN3PR05CA0014.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.174.64.24) by SN1PR05MB2192.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.169.124.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1220.5; Fri, 30 Jun 2017 15:22:19 +0000 Received: from CO1NAM05FT061.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e50::207) by BN3PR05CA0014.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:400::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR05MB2192 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-EndToEndLatency: 00:00:01.1779742 X-MS-Exchange-Processed-By-BccFoldering: 15.01.1240.000 X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1;CY1PR05MB2187;27:RpDkHPJWiABgyfG/k05+w039dTfinSoaOsdVGX/WhcxUPrCp0BzVth6Nyji68IWVfW3E0drg4FRno8owwPPQLvCtbmuLNawL07E8TGtp/ebiS8HtzbcJuBdVq8+0+qPTqJLrLK37KxB0TlwqqMyiSg== MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review. > >> (1). Security Considerations >> >> >> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the >> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid >> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I >> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein >> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference >> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into >> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets >> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that >> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this >> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to >> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. >> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create >> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use >> case is addressed as noted. > > > The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot > know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. I = can > say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encapsulated > packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. > > The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add t= hat > certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. > > It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits in > the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). Sure, I think that helps. > >> I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized >> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue >> from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are >> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not >> introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts >> on how to do this with BIER. > > > The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where > BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead outs= ide > the domain. I'm not sure what else one would do. > >> >> >> (2). SPF assumed. >> >> >> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say >> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard >> IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing >> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP. These networks use a= ll BGP >> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce >> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may >> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system >> information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be >> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additiona= l >> considerations be needed? > > > With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to u= se > BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes) th= at > is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions. I don't think anything expli= cit > needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IGP-based > distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text there tha= t > requires the control plane to be IGP-based. > > In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "routing > underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear that a= ll > the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-id t= o > BFR-prefix to set of next hops. Some of the techniques discussed for > tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed neighbors= do > assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional. > > So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to be > added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing underlay= s. > I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that OSPF/IS-IS are = not > portrayed as strict requirements. Sure, that makes sense. I was just my read. Again, not a big item. But thanks for double checking. > >> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and = did not see >> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described >> above. > > > I won't comment on the "use cases" document. > >> >> >> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) >> >> >> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), >> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was >> described. So my question is, would an operational model which >> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally >> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as >> described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two >> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each >> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). >> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/devic= e to allow for >> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level >> detection and re-routing is not sufficient). > > > If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and eac= h > ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing to > stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the sam= e > set of egress points. The egress node would have to be able to tell when= it > was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy as > the one to forward further. The BIER encapsulations (not described in th= e > architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes this > possible. If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress node could > switch to the other flow. How it determines when to do this is outside t= he > scope of BIER, of course. > > If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through the > network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other. This would require tw= o > sub-domains. This really becomes a network design issue, but could > certainly be handled by BIER. > > So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these case= s, > but BIER is only a piece of the solution. Fair. Again, no action was necessarily required per say. Just wanted to validate. > > regards, Victor K --------------6033769A55711F9B97E358B2-- From nobody Thu Jul 6 07:50:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F13131648; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 07:50:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Benoit Claise To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , bier-chairs@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org, victor@jvknet.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149935260597.2282.13769939557972164314.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 07:50:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 14:50:12 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. operations and management section I'm sure there are such considerations: - configuration - sub-domain management - BFR-id management - adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain - logging - troubleshooting - OAM - etc. There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: chartered item 6 and 7. There are some management sentences, from time to time, in the doc. Ex: avoiding a second copy is an important from an operational point of view It is generally advantageous to assign the BFR-ids of a given sub- domain so that as many BFERs as possible can be represented in a single bit string. ... In order to minimize the number of copies that must be made of a given multicast packet, it is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-ids be assigned "densely" (see Section 2) from the numbering space... Btw, I guess you meant: assigned densely per subdomain, right? What this "operations and management section" should contain is the points that operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An architecture document is typically the first document people will read. RFC 5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the answers at this point in time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Next point moved from DISCUSS to COMMENT after the IESG telechat: 1. I want to come back to the experimental status. I have seen Alia's reply: In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on deployment experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental to Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether it was merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the narrow point of the IP hourglass. >From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already: The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current implementations. Operator feedback indicates there are at least two implementations currently, with others in the works. There are currently five vendors collaborating on the work in the IETF. However, I've not been following the specifications development and implementation to provide a definitive answer. At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for a successful experiment. Implementations (RFC7942?)? two interop implementations? hardware implementation? "deployment experience" (to cite the charter text)? impact analysis? something else? The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc. A reference to the charter Item 9 would be a good start. Examples: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7360#section-1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7499#section-2 - Each BFR MUST be assigned a single "BFR-Prefix" for each sub-domain to which it belongs. A BFR's BFR-Prefix MUST be an IP address (either IPv4 or IPv6) of the BFR. It is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-prefix be a loopback address of the BFR. Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, except that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's not called a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable - Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What about anycast/unicast? End of section 4 you have an example about MVPN over ingress/egress PEs. Some multicast packets would take BIER encap, while others packets would take a different encap From a troubleshooting point of view, does it make sense (is it even allowed) to send non multicast traffic over BIER. Victor Kuarsing performed the OPS-DIR review, copied below. Discussion is ongoing. First, there were no textual changes recommended as part of this review. The document seems to be well written and had undergone previous review/updates. Given the nature of this document, there are limited operational specific points made as part of this review however three points are noted for follow-up with the actors. (1). Security Considerations It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use case is addressed as noted. I was no able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts on how to do this with BIER. (2). SPF assumed. I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing fabrics which don’t use a traditional IGP. These networks use all BGP (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be address with BIER as it’s currently outlined, or would additional considerations be needed? I reviewed the “draft-ietf-bier-use-cases” document and did not see text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described above. (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was described. So my question is, would an operational model which required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C broadcast feed to be “pinned” to the egress router/device to allow for fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level detection and re-routing is not sufficient). From nobody Thu Jul 6 11:43:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70451318EC; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUw9XY7BjS6y; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E79713189B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 16so9954100qkg.2; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=tTLG3YnmJkjuqEBsoUA4YMqUof4smqLhseJoFiBvTm4=; b=HZu6/7Mmb22NwvkiLhgE4rja59qNeBT1LEygIFZwcO6+7aOdL0Ru07xE4V5+X7hyNQ dIRJSHXWMrgzzBhXQsbAgHNGpLNaBEPx+2Z88RHMnQerr6egr1k5mu+XCtF119pOm7xZ 4edHrHZ3RebUJHHrD1uwuQT70R5qn9rmyVEHfuVcXjPR56YAbUxGpXt4p8vOinIoOGZ7 acMM/WyBwpUlwcRWyCpXeBIcqmwk0Is9R5Xv1JYSBNBQYPb9f/waJZLIFlIQiBAUSkQU utdnjWGnYMT6BdF9dMS094HqRB3sQartDQYAi0d4BBYTzFoKGV65EivrLJMbO+UFIZgy ZyuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tTLG3YnmJkjuqEBsoUA4YMqUof4smqLhseJoFiBvTm4=; b=OLSj1X7AIGBju0DHsSw8r1yOBgqHfmLtYLERPfn0D2kznVrre0iCCQ6y61QU43Q+vz Upd9A7neZn41+bYzFFfdLIxHCcsUdXJjDmeRmRergU+Pyg+eUJZ67IvCn5PwVzoar36f ci025twmatFmunVMXcMmSdmzjwY5BqV4wG1LXkFlWd6CFwWVl46s783u9RpAYw8oQ3uH KWJbmOnunF2lz/vBc4KDeynT7yeNWTI6O76o/GgG/ft1h5I/At05p60hBhfFIdiio6QU /eVMLQg8BnHDadIq+GF8lUD+hQPcLPdclQEKfpEFxUBrJFsj0haIvXXe7997EG7dgHhu auwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111D8M4DQvCByDh13p43ssPPG1Cg0zNRWcXGLyS6ybCZ9sIiTkGR SY9l2CFedX4zhvdJCfvDgo274K0FnA== X-Received: by 10.55.221.76 with SMTP id n73mr14382475qki.186.1499366618240; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 11:43:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.54.101 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <149934683636.2270.10065032311656213669.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:43:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric C Rosen Cc: Benoit Claise , The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org, "bier@ietf.org" , victor@jvknet.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11499fa8ab1e900553aa7ef2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:43:44 -0000 --001a11499fa8ab1e900553aa7ef2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline: On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 7/6/2017 9:13 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 1. I want to come back to the experimental status. >> > > The status of the document is a political issue that should not impact th= e > content of the document. I would say process over political. But I agree it should have no bearing on the content of the document. > > >> I have seen Alia's reply: >> >> In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on >> deployment >> experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental = to >> Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether >> it was >> merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards >> deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the >> narrow >> point of the IP hourglass. >> >> >From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already: >> >> The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current >> implementations. >> Operator feedback indicates there are at least two implementations >> currently, with others in the works. There are currently five vendo= rs >> collaborating on the work in the IETF. >> >> However, I've not been following the specifications development and >> implementation to provide a definitive answer. >> >> At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for= a >> successful experiment. >> Implementations (RFC7942?)? >> two interop implementations? >> hardware implementation? >> "deployment experience" (to cite the charter text)? >> impact analysis? >> something else? >> >> The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc. >> > > The above is all entirely outside the scope of this document. Agree. This is in the charter. If/when the the case is made to transition all of the BIER work to the standards track the documents' contents should not change. > > 2. operations and management section >> I'm sure there are such considerations: >> - configuration >> - sub-domain management >> - BFR-id management >> - adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain >> - logging >> - troubleshooting >> - OAM >> - etc. >> > > I am unaware of any RFC that requires such a section to be included in a > document like this. These topics are outside the scope of this document. Agree. There are other documents in the WG to address some of the above concerns. None of these seem appropriate for an architecture document. There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: >> chartered item 6 and 7. >> > > These are outside the scope of the architecture document. Agree. The mgmt docs must refer to the arch not, but I don't see why the other way around is required. > > There are some management sentences, from time to time, >> in the doc. Ex: avoiding a second copy is an important from an operation= al >> point of view >> >> It is generally advantageous to assign the BFR-ids of a given sub- >> domain so that as many BFERs as possible can be represented in a >> single bit string. >> >> ... >> >> In order to minimize the number of copies that must be made of a >> given multicast packet, it is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-ids be >> assigned "densely" (see Section 2) from the numbering space... >> >> Btw, I guess you meant: assigned densely per subdomain, right? >> > > Correct, I'll add some clarifying text. > > >> What this "operations and management section" should contain is the >> points that >> operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An >> architecture document is typically the first document people will read. >> RFC >> 5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I >> understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the >> answers at >> this point in time. >> > > This would be the topic for a different document. Agree. There is other work in the WG to address this. It would seem out of scope for an arch doc. Greg > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> - Each BFR MUST be assigned a single "BFR-Prefix" for each sub-domain >> to which it belongs. A BFR's BFR-Prefix MUST be an IP address >> (either IPv4 or IPv6) of the BFR. It is RECOMMENDED that the >> BFR-prefix be a loopback address of the BFR. >> >> Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, >> except >> that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's not >> called >> a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable >> >> - Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What abou= t >> anycast/unicast? >> > > You could use BIER to do a unicast, by setting only one bit in the > BitString. However, there are other more efficient encapsulations for > unicast tunnels. > > End of section 4 you have an example about MVPN over >> ingress/egress PEs. Some multicast packets would take BIER encap, while >> others >> packets would take a different encap >> > > I'm not sure what you're referring to. > > From a troubleshooting point of view, does >> it make sense (is it even allowed) to send non multicast traffic over >> BIER. >> >> Victor Kuarsing performed the OPS-DIR review, copied below. Discussion i= s >> ongoing. >> > > Attached are my reply to Victor and his response. I did make a few > changes in response to his comments, but the latest revision has not been > posted yet. > > > >> First, there were no textual changes recommended as part of this >> review. The document seems to be well written and had undergone >> previous review/updates. Given the nature of this document, there are >> limited operational specific points made as part of this review >> however three points are noted for follow-up with the actors. >> >> (1). Security Considerations >> >> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the >> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid >> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I >> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein >> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference >> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into >> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets >> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that >> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this >> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to >> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. >> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create >> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use >> case is addressed as noted. >> >> I was no able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized >> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue >> from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are >> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not >> introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts >> on how to do this with BIER. >> >> (2). SPF assumed. >> >> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say >> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard >> IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing >> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP. These networks use a= ll BGP >> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce >> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may >> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system >> information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be >> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additiona= l >> considerations be needed? >> >> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and = did not see >> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described >> above. >> >> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) >> >> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), >> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was >> described. So my question is, would an operational model which >> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally >> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as >> described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two >> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each >> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). >> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/devic= e to allow for >> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level >> detection and re-routing is not sufficient). >> >> >> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Eric C Rosen > To: Victor Kuarsingh , Warren Kumari , > Benoit Claise , ops-dir@ietf.org, > draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, > prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:12:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 > Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review. > > (1). Security Considerations >> >> >> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the >> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid >> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I >> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein >> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference >> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into >> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets >> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that >> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this >> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to >> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. >> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create >> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use >> case is addressed as noted. >> > > The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot > know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. I > can say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept > BIER-encapsulated packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sor= t > of threat. > > The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add > that certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. > > It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits in > the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). > > I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized >> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue >> from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are >> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not >> introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts >> on how to do this with BIER. >> > > The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where > BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead > outside the domain. I'm not sure what else one would do. > > >> >> (2). SPF assumed. >> >> >> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say >> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard >> IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing >> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP. These networks use a= ll BGP >> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce >> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may >> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system >> information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be >> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additiona= l >> considerations be needed? >> > > With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to > use BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes= ) > that is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions. I don't think anything > explicit needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses > IGP-based distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text > there that requires the control plane to be IGP-based. > > In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "routing > underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear that a= ll > the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-id t= o > BFR-prefix to set of next hops. Some of the techniques discussed for > tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed neighbors > do assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional. > > So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to be > added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing > underlays. I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that > OSPF/IS-IS are not portrayed as strict requirements. > > I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and d= id not see >> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described >> above. >> > > I won't comment on the "use cases" document. > > >> >> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note) >> >> >> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), >> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was >> described. So my question is, would an operational model which >> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally >> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as >> described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two >> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each >> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). >> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/devic= e to allow for >> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level >> detection and re-routing is not sufficient). >> > > If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and eac= h > ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing to > stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the sam= e > set of egress points. The egress node would have to be able to tell when > it was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy > as the one to forward further. The BIER encapsulations (not described in > the architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes th= is > possible. If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress node could > switch to the other flow. How it determines when to do this is outside t= he > scope of BIER, of course. > > If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through the > network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other. This would require tw= o > sub-domains. This really becomes a network design issue, but could > certainly be handled by BIER. > > So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these > cases, but BIER is only a piece of the solution. > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Victor Kuarsingh > To: Eric C Rosen > Cc: Warren Kumari , Benoit Claise , > ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, > gjshep@gmail.com, prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:22:16 -0400 > Subject: Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 > On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote= : > > Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review. > > > >> (1). Security Considerations > >> > >> > >> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the > >> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid > >> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I > >> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein > >> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference > >> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into > >> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets > >> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that > >> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this > >> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to > >> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. > >> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create > >> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use > >> case is addressed as noted. > > > > > > The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned o= t > > know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. = I > can > > say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encapsulate= d > > packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. > > > > The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER > > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add > that > > certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the > > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. > > > > It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER > > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits = in > > the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). > > > Sure, I think that helps. > > > > > >> I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized > >> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue > >> from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are > >> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not > >> introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts > >> on how to do this with BIER. > > > > > > The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where > > BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead > outside > > the domain. I'm not sure what else one would do. > > > >> > >> > >> (2). SPF assumed. > >> > >> > >> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say > >> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard > >> IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing > >> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP. These networks use= all BGP > >> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce > >> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may > >> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system > >> information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be > >> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additio= nal > >> considerations be needed? > > > > > > With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to > use > > BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes) > that > > is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions. I don't think anything > explicit > > needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IGP-based > > distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text there > that > > requires the control plane to be IGP-based. > > > > In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "routi= ng > > underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear that > all > > the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-id > to > > BFR-prefix to set of next hops. Some of the techniques discussed for > > tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed > neighbors do > > assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional. > > > > So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to = be > > added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing > underlays. > > I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that OSPF/IS-IS ar= e > not > > portrayed as strict requirements. > > Sure, that makes sense. I was just my read. Again, not a big item. > But thanks for double checking. > > > > > >> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document an= d did not see > >> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described > >> above. > > > > > > I won't comment on the "use cases" document. > > > >> > >> > >> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of not= e) > >> > >> > >> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), > >> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was > >> described. So my question is, would an operational model which > >> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally > >> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as > >> described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two > >> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each > >> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). > >> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C > >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/dev= ice to allow for > >> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level > >> detection and re-routing is not sufficient). > > > > > > If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and > each > > ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing t= o > > stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the > same > > set of egress points. The egress node would have to be able to tell > when it > > was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy = as > > the one to forward further. The BIER encapsulations (not described in > the > > architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes this > > possible. If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress node cou= ld > > switch to the other flow. How it determines when to do this is outside > the > > scope of BIER, of course. > > > > If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through the > > network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different > > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other. This would require > two > > sub-domains. This really becomes a network design issue, but could > > certainly be handled by BIER. > > > > So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these > cases, > > but BIER is only a piece of the solution. > > Fair. Again, no action was necessarily required per say. Just wanted > to validate. > > > > > > > > regards, > > Victor K > > --001a11499fa8ab1e900553aa7ef2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Eric C Rosen <<= a href=3D"mailto:erosen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">erosen@juniper.net> wrote:
On = 7/6/2017 9:13 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

1. I want to come back to the experimental status.

 The status of the document is a political issue that should not impact the = content of the document.

I would say proces= s over political. But I agree it should have no bearing on the content of t= he document.
=C2=A0


I have seen Alia's reply:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document b= ased on deployment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experience that can justify moving the BIER work from E= xperimental to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Standards Track.=C2=A0 When I chartered the WG, it wasn= 't clear whether it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivatio= ns towards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment that it is worth complicating the architectu= re at the narrow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point of the IP hourglass.

>From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current = implementations.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operator feedback indicates there are at least two impl= ementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently, with others in the works. There are currentl= y five vendors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0collaborating on the work in the IETF.

However, I've not been following the specifications development and
implementation to provide a definitive answer.

At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for a<= br> successful experiment.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations (RFC7942?)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0two interop implementations?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hardware implementation?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"deployment experience" (to cite the charter = text)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact analysis?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something else?

The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc.

 The above is all entirely outside the scope of this document.
<= div>
Agree. This is in the charter. If/when the the case is m= ade to transition all of the BIER work to the standards track the documents= ' contents should not change.
=C2=A0

2. operations and management section
I'm sure there are such considerations:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- configuration
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- sub-domain management
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- BFR-id management
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- logging
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- troubleshooting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- OAM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- etc.

 I am unaware of any RFC that requires such a section to be included in a do= cument like this.=C2=A0 These topics are outside the scope of this document= .

=C2=A0Agree. There are other documents in= the WG to address some of the above concerns. None of these seem appropria= te for an architecture document.

There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: chartered item 6 and 7.

 These are outside the scope of the architecture document.
=
Agree. The mgmt docs must refer to the arch not, but I don&#= 39;t see why the other way around is required.
=C2=A0

There are some management sentences, from time to time,
in the doc. Ex: avoiding a second copy is an important from an operational<= br> point of view

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is generally advantageous to assign the BFR-ids of a given= sub-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 domain so that as many BFERs as possible can be represented i= n a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single bit string.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In order to minimize the number of copies that must be made o= f a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 given multicast packet, it is RECOMMENDED that the BFR-ids be=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 assigned "densely" (see Section 2) from the numberi= ng space...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Btw, I guess you meant: assigned densely per subdomain,= right?

 Correct, I'll add some clarifying text.


What this "operations and management section" should contain is t= he points that
operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An architecture document is typically the first document people will read. RFC=
5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I
understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the answer= s at
this point in time.

 This would be the topic for a different document.

Agree. There is other work in the WG to address this. It would seem = out of scope for an arch doc.

Greg
=C2= =A0



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
COMMENT:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0Each BFR MUST be assigned a single "BFR-Prefix" for= each sub-domain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to which it belongs.=C2=A0 A BFR's BFR-Prefix MUST be an = IP address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (either IPv4 or IPv6) of the BFR.=C2=A0 It is RECOMMENDED tha= t the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFR-prefix be a loopback address of the BFR.

Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, ex= cept
that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's= not called
a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable

- Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What about anycast/unicast?

 You could use BIER to do a unicast, by setting only one bit in the BitStrin= g.=C2=A0 However, there are other more efficient encapsulations for unicast= tunnels.

End of section 4 you have an example about MVPN over
ingress/egress PEs. Some multicast packets would take BIER encap, while oth= ers
packets would take a different encap

 I'm not sure what you're referring to.

=C2=A0From a troubleshooting point of view, does
it make sense (is it even allowed) to send non multicast traffic over BIER.=

Victor Kuarsing performed the OPS-DIR review, copied below. Discussion is ongoing.

 Attached are my reply to Victor and his response.=C2=A0 I did make a few ch= anges in response to his comments, but the latest revision has not been pos= ted yet.



First, there were no textual changes recommended as part of this
review.=C2=A0 The document seems to be well written and had undergone
previous review/updates.=C2=A0 Given the nature of this document, there are=
limited operational specific points made as part of this review
however three points are noted for follow-up with the actors.

(1). Security Considerations

It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the
BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid
certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs).=C2=A0 I may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein
(if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference
where it is addressed).=C2=A0 The concern is if a packet is introduced into=
the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets
(may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that
attempts to starve resources in the system.=C2=A0 One way of doing this
(which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to
set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e.
set a single=C2=A0 - or all bits -=C2=A0 for all SIs).=C2=A0 This would the= n create
the maximum amount of replication within the system.=C2=A0 Perhaps this use=
case is addressed as noted.

I was no able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized
incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs.=C2=A0 Could this be an issue from the authors standpoint?=C2=A0 In more traditional networks, there are<= br> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not
introduced into the system.=C2=A0 I wanted to make sure there was thoughts<= br> on how to do this with BIER.

(2). SPF assumed.

I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say
in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard
IGP.=C2=A0 However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing<= br> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP.=C2=A0 These networks use= all BGP
(eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships.=C2=A0 This helps reduce the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may
not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system
information.=C2=A0 Do the authors consider this use case one that can be address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additional considerations be needed?

I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and did= not see
text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described
above.

(3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note)
I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2),
that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was
described.=C2=A0 So my question is, would an operational model which
required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally
two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as
described?=C2=A0 My best estimate would be that the operator would use two<= br> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each
packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs).
This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C
broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/device t= o allow for
fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level
detection and re-routing is not sufficient).





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0E= ric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
To:=C2=A0Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas <a= katlas@gmail.com>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 30 J= un 2017 11:12:53 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bi= er-architecture-07
Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review.=

(1). Security Considerations


It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the
BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid
certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs).=C2=A0 I may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein
(if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference
where it is addressed).=C2=A0 The concern is if a packet is introduced into=
the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets
(may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that
attempts to starve resources in the system.=C2=A0 One way of doing this
(which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to
set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e.
set a single=C2=A0 - or all bits -=C2=A0 for all SIs).=C2=A0 This would the= n create
the maximum amount of replication within the system.=C2=A0 Perhaps this use=
case is addressed as noted.

The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot kn= ow which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I can say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER= -encapsulated packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of t= hreat.

The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER encap= sulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add that cer= tain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the BitString,= are potential vectors for DoS attacks.

It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER encaps= ulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits in the Bit= String, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended).

I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized
incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs.=C2=A0 Could this be an issue from the authors standpoint?=C2=A0 In more traditional networks, there are<= br> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not
introduced into the system.=C2=A0 I wanted to make sure there was thoughts<= br> on how to do this with BIER.

The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where BIER-= encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead outside the= domain.=C2=A0 I'm not sure what else one would do.



(2). SPF assumed.


I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say
in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard
IGP.=C2=A0 However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing<= br> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP.=C2=A0 These networks use= all BGP
(eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships.=C2=A0 This helps reduce the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may
not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system
information.=C2=A0 Do the authors consider this use case one that can be address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additional considerations be needed?

With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to use= BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes) tha= t is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions.=C2=A0 I don't think anyth= ing explicit needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IG= P-based distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text= there that requires the control plane to be IGP-based.

In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "rout= ing underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear= that all the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from = BFR-id to BFR-prefix to set of next hops.=C2=A0 Some of the techniques disc= ussed for tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed n= eighbors do assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional.
So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to = be added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing underla= ys.=C2=A0 I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that= OSPF/IS-IS are not portrayed as strict requirements.

I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and did= not see
text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described
above.

I won't comment on the "use cases" document.



(3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of note)

I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2),
that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was
described.=C2=A0 So my question is, would an operational model which
required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally
two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture as
described?=C2=A0 My best estimate would be that the operator would use two<= br> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each
packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs).
This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C
broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/device t= o allow for
fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network level
detection and re-routing is not sufficient).

If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and each = ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing to st= op both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the same se= t of egress points.=C2=A0 The egress node would have to be able to tell whe= n it was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy= as the one to forward further.=C2=A0 The BIER encapsulations (not describe= d in the architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes= this possible.=C2=A0 If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress n= ode could switch to the other flow.=C2=A0 How it determines when to do this= is outside the scope of BIER, of course.

If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through the net= work along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different "rou= ting underlays", each disjoint from the other.=C2=A0 This would requir= e two sub-domains.=C2=A0 This really becomes a network design issue, but co= uld certainly be handled by BIER.

So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these cases,= but BIER is only a piece of the solution.




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Victor Kuarsi= ngh <victor@jvknet.com>
T= o:=C2=A0Eric C Rosen <erosen@junip= er.net>
Cc:=C2=A0Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, = prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas <ak= atlas@gmail.com>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:22:= 16 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architectur= e-07
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:
> Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review.
>
>> (1). Security Considerations
>>
>>
>> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how = the
>> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoi= d
>> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs).= =C2=A0 I
>> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herei= n
>> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference<= br> >> where it is addressed).=C2=A0 The concern is if a packet is introd= uced into
>> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packet= s
>> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) = that
>> attempts to starve resources in the system.=C2=A0 One way of doing= this
>> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to
>> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.= e.
>> set a single=C2=A0 - or all bits -=C2=A0 for all SIs).=C2=A0 This = would then create
>> the maximum amount of replication within the system.=C2=A0 Perhaps= this use
>> case is addressed as noted.
>
>
> The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned = ot
> know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0I can
> say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encaps= ulated
> packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. >
> The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER<= br> > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can ad= d that
> certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks.
>
> It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits= in
> the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended).


Sure, I think that helps.


>
>> I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutin= ized
>> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs.=C2=A0 Could this be an= issue
>> from the authors standpoint?=C2=A0 In more traditional networks, t= here are
>> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not >> introduced into the system.=C2=A0 I wanted to make sure there was = thoughts
>> on how to do this with BIER.
>
>
> The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where<= br> > BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead o= utside
> the domain.=C2=A0 I'm not sure what else one would do.
>
>>
>>
>> (2). SPF assumed.
>>
>>
>> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live = (say
>> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standa= rd
>> IGP.=C2=A0 However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are d= esigning
>> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP.=C2=A0 These net= works use all BGP
>> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships.=C2=A0 This helps = reduce
>> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or m= ay
>> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system
>> information.=C2=A0 Do the authors consider this use case one that = can be
>> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would add= itional
>> considerations be needed?
>
>
> With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how t= o use
> BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes)= that
> is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions.=C2=A0 I don't think an= ything explicit
> needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IGP-based<= br> > distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text th= ere that
> requires the control plane to be IGP-based.
>
> In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "= ;routing
> underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clea= r that all
> the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-i= d to
> BFR-prefix to set of next hops.=C2=A0 Some of the techniques discussed= for
> tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed neighb= ors do
> assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional.
>
> So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional need= s to be
> added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing under= lays.
> I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that OSPF= /IS-IS are not
> portrayed as strict requirements.

Sure, that makes sense.=C2=A0 I was just my read.=C2=A0 Again, not a big it= em.
But thanks for double checking.


>
>> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D documen= t and did not see
>> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I descr= ibed
>> above.
>
>
> I won't comment on the "use cases" document.
>
>>
>>
>> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of= note)
>>
>>
>> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2)= ,
>> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was
>> described.=C2=A0 So my question is, would an operational model whi= ch
>> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normall= y
>> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architectur= e as
>> described?=C2=A0 My best estimate would be that the operator would= use two
>> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of e= ach
>> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFR= s).
>> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router= /device to allow for
>> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network l= evel
>> detection and re-routing is not sufficient).
>
>
> If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and = each
> ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing = to
> stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the = same
> set of egress points.=C2=A0 The egress node would have to be able to t= ell when it
> was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy= as
> the one to forward further.=C2=A0 The BIER encapsulations (not describ= ed in the
> architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes thi= s
> possible.=C2=A0 If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress no= de could
> switch to the other flow.=C2=A0 How it determines when to do this is o= utside the
> scope of BIER, of course.
>
> If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through th= e
> network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other.=C2=A0 Thi= s would require two
> sub-domains.=C2=A0 This really becomes a network design issue, but cou= ld
> certainly be handled by BIER.
>
> So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these c= ases,
> but BIER is only a piece of the solution.

Fair.=C2=A0 Again, no action was necessarily required per say.=C2=A0 Just w= anted
to validate.

>
>


regards,

Victor K


--001a11499fa8ab1e900553aa7ef2-- From nobody Thu Jul 6 14:08:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58CB12EA58; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M0o23V-eLTgd; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x231.google.com (mail-wr0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2534813180A; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x231.google.com with SMTP id c11so19741931wrc.3; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9sDU/7y7t4IpAgGBOf/AUOZ+1/DsPzR1MJ8XgEzhOxs=; b=mtwRHovXRCkAz/4iuhLMLwHb19kBvd0grd9xX4k8wvbxKgxXKEEsI2czi5IcT8i2DM hV3So0JigGp3bhw+KQtdizW0yRFIPKoRX1AGBXEoyzRM6O9kjP5ZXQW39gw994UxcjBG hjOsg7YUx4bVnYiEmtBSruaGftcs+QZqao5GnImrHYilFBVb6mDJnszJI7AjBIGAboN4 I0o1xWgaHx27Ik854ZeGZSm3ZFqZBo36HuxVe0D2CZp7ZSLdOdW7w7lGaySF7nFvWvtR S1Yuk/QVOzccjHobd2ZFOJ+cvl/KKinrgKPKQsJLUjS/gBgeUy/qoBFFxUjo1o+mTEDE 24cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9sDU/7y7t4IpAgGBOf/AUOZ+1/DsPzR1MJ8XgEzhOxs=; b=ilkvsXt7hnBKFyjk4p2T6f5WXkuQ9HwcgOfsLmg3ZX/aIHW5jo7y9GtP7HRovQLT9i sCGKX78nOQmOPc2HPnhRJoJzuXoexQvcZDwara1dXdLlvfG4WSIJWp8MkBWUeQIN7fE+ 1V0+L1LhQh5x+vbRSeS2JkR2FN3nK8Ufc3e/WvTrEaQlEv/AxCLBtjVCnOX2bTp4W92v XIdw66nu9F/VqnyDsayKPbn3d3PGYC+yY6Qw2k/K2WfVAzSuYUidrm66zmgdEg6JdorT yJ8gvVyUvrHleXC71y468OUZ0sCk0Mj4p9IUewB6OWW087sdj/zgIHHUoMCSwB0WP07w hpDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111uw/laA8XQ0ZbRIZjKzpWUtsD3hi4zfoUHmBzOSN2i6v52Zr4j QrTNcevVAbsfcnVN6SYRaBnJqt4JxN5H X-Received: by 10.80.161.71 with SMTP id 65mr599739edj.183.1499375285747; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 14:08:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.183.131 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <149928257588.22631.11073122843340523128.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <149928257588.22631.11073122843340523128.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:07:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d9a5c4ac7260553ac83a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:08:10 -0000 --94eb2c0d9a5c4ac7260553ac83a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Nits and notes: > 1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Router" > (BFR)." > -- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had > interesting > history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) - > http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A Some of the authors are known as mild punsters so for the old hands it may look like some of the acronym choices have not been innocuous ;-) > > > 2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the > type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multicast data though > the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you meant > "through" :-) > 3: Section 6.1. Overview > "If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and > BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies. > ack > > O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow overlay, > it > of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to > the > multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma. I > suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow > overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better. > > Section 6.9. When Some Nodes do not Support BIER > "In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based IGP > that > computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the > domain." > C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", but I'm not > sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the shortest > path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a > singular > tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this > is a > nit and I can move on :-) > in fact, it is a DAG with SPF properties and BIER is free to use the DAG to ECMP. The ECMP section should make that pretty obvious. > > Section 6.10.3. Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another > Typo: Dispostion -> Disposition > ack --94eb2c0d9a5c4ac7260553ac83a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=

Nits and notes:
1: " A router that supports BIER is known as a "Bit-Forwarding Ro= uter" (BFR)."
-- this makes me sad; the BFR acronym was already in use, and had interesti= ng
history behind it (Big er... Fast Router) -
http://photos.kumari.net/Technology/= Networking/i-k4vCdwv/A

Some of the= authors are known as mild punsters so for the old hands it may look like s= ome of the acronym choices have not been innocuous ;-)=C2=A0
=C2= =A0


2: "MVPN signaling also has several components that depend on the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0type of "tunneling technology" used to carry multica= st data though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the network." -- though the network what?! I suspect you = meant "through" :-)
3: Section 6.1.=C2=A0 Overview
"If a BFR receives a BIER-encapsulated packet whose sub-domain, SI and=
BitString identify that BFR itself, ..." -- identifies.

ack=C2=A0
=C2=A0

O: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flow over= lay, it
of course decapsulates..." P: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a p= acket to the
multicast flow overlay, it, of course decapsulates" C: Missing a comma= . I
suspect: "When BIER on a BFER is to pass a packet to the multicast flo= w
overlay, it decapsulates..." would be even better.

Section 6.9.=C2=A0 When Some Nodes do not Support BIER
"In this section, we assume that the routing underlay is an SPF-based = IGP that
computes a shortest path tree from each node to all other nodes in the doma= in."
C: I *think* that this should actually be "the shortest path", bu= t I'm not
sure; everything talks about e.g Dijkstra's algorithm finding the short= est
path, but what if there are multiple equal cost paths? But, this is a singu= lar
tree, but may not be unique, so any SP tree will... erk... Good this this i= s a
nit and I can move on :-)

in fact, it i= s a DAG with SPF properties and BIER is free to use the DAG to ECMP. The EC= MP section should make that pretty obvious.=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Section 6.10.3.=C2=A0 Transitioning from One BitStringLength to Another
Typo:=C2=A0 Dispostion ->=C2=A0 Disposition

ack=C2=A0

--94eb2c0d9a5c4ac7260553ac83a1-- From nobody Thu Jul 6 15:30:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECC412ECAD; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UHRH76CyWJgy; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE583126D46; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id c11so22111876wrc.3; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 15:30:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3yGu9LBN9yXsPZgm1rR1jFRUi6uKAgfC/PyyCLjwQ8U=; b=MhajFJP4C2qpV19jrJossg64xwqGinarDgeyTc4AWU1qLJN/nElrj1xS42E9SlSs17 Q/NhZHGQ1eJWzsQOYgaQE+w1s2JiiU7lmP0ZT4r/um8omJaNh7aQ7i+BXHpmXo4zpzA0 X7uf68gXtHsavbhKYlEXyBrqLF0fVW0lTPdts5edFD25/LivERmAF3/e9Q1z1dud6hZc +JSsjXYfykKv2FTkK1p398MKGM23t6Sxn8fjBY8H01l3oPY558oKMQkNSc/a76llvjW8 JSLQLzGRi2r/nbq/0nPfEsf/TW4rBHmtS0CfIDu1hbPS0NvPqoLVCeQfSqN/hLzvPZ8b xyvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3yGu9LBN9yXsPZgm1rR1jFRUi6uKAgfC/PyyCLjwQ8U=; b=RyG8QKeMvBh7N68tB294UKWkZWGDoCuUG5Q5rRP0JYqW45n4VCdu+VXO9SSUinJfWd YMZl8/3YfIxG2D3UXRvGytLXrwsIb8GOU/zPPa3mV/8d0vytgE188gh1Zok0fdAQKYyI bLxPXK+J1Lf+qE7DNjkQ3E1VCFoCLrZNqYcDTlGjBk8La5jPNpCy4XwBZPF3Cp/jBpOJ Kq1+SgamLXrvoLLE8iu07CigwIAcCcWAnhI/QmA/EQcrMUVuIMy1XPj3krPKa6HFEJCF x8RLpaLvPAV0cAH9ZW7V0vtR+VGhc525NNtu6yz6HrgieSTJdjqxES5pyxo05iZmDapy qGqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111EMl4Vtk0u1Vu+5ZDqTLd7L0t/YQU5d0nu+1+o1wrxW0eCtDJa gIjTuYBe5es8TqNO3TYNYNrlQ1agw9qb X-Received: by 10.80.220.138 with SMTP id r10mr123449edk.91.1499380250180; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 15:30:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.183.131 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:30:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <149934683636.2270.10065032311656213669.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-bier-architecture@ietf.org, victor@jvknet.com, The IESG , Benoit Claise , bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043e51ec32024c0553adab27" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 22:30:56 -0000 --f403043e51ec32024c0553adab27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable inline comments as chair helping out the shepherd and editor ... Cut out tons text to abbreviate this (by now) longish text ... On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Inline: > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > >> On 7/6/2017 9:13 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> 1. I want to come back to the experimental status. >>> >> >> The status of the document is a political issue that should not impact >> the content of the document. > > > I would say process over political. But I agree it should have no bearing > on the content of the document. > Yes, this is a process/track issue and I would not consider an architecture document well-crafted if its text had to argue the document itself onto a track ;-) The work either stands in its quality/adoption to present a standards track or doesn't and then such track is meaningless. The bar set to adopt this work on IETF standard track by Alia has been arguably very high but the current agreement has been struck with the chairs based on her most excellent argument that we're touching the "hourglass" and with that more rigorous standards apply ... IMO we are all better off for it longer term. > > >> >> >>> I have seen Alia's reply: >>> >>> In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document based on >>> deployment >>> experience that can justify moving the BIER work from Experimental >>> to >>> Standards Track. When I chartered the WG, it wasn't clear whether >>> it was >>> merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivations towards >>> deployment that it is worth complicating the architecture at the >>> narrow >>> point of the IP hourglass. >>> >>> >From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already: >>> >>> The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current >>> implementations. >>> Operator feedback indicates there are at least two implementations >>> currently, with others in the works. There are currently five >>> vendors >>> collaborating on the work in the IETF. >>> >>> However, I've not been following the specifications development and >>> implementation to provide a definitive answer. >>> >>> At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are fo= r >>> a >>> successful experiment. >>> Implementations (RFC7942?)? >>> two interop implementations? >>> hardware implementation? >>> "deployment experience" (to cite the charter text)? >>> impact analysis? >>> something else? >>> >>> The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc. >>> >> >> The above is all entirely outside the scope of this document. > > > Agree. This is in the charter. If/when the the case is made to transition > all of the BIER work to the standards track the documents' contents shoul= d > not change. > Yes, the standard of adoption into standards track is entirely a charter issue IMO and this can be formulated along e.g. lines suggested by Benoit within the charter. > > >> >> 2. operations and management section >>> I'm sure there are such considerations: >>> - configuration >>> - sub-domain management >>> - BFR-id management >>> - adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain >>> - logging >>> - troubleshooting >>> - OAM >>> - etc. >>> >> >> I am unaware of any RFC that requires such a section to be included in a >> document like this. These topics are outside the scope of this document= . > > > Agree. There are other documents in the WG to address some of the above > concerns. None of these seem appropriate for an architecture document. > I am agnostic whether architecture document shall REFER to e.g. OAM document. However, folding those documents/considerations into a detailed architecture document (like this one is) will make it unwieldy and loose the forest for the trees. If anything, this architecture says too much about things like operational details (since we want to leave the mechanism applied @ the discretion of particular implementation, BIER can be IGP signalled, statically configured, controller provisioned and so on without breaking the architecture. Same applies for BFR-id). Unless specific standards RFC dictates that those considerations must be included in a detailed fashion in this architecture document I would also argue that they do not belong here. > > There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: >>> chartered item 6 and 7. >>> >> >> These are outside the scope of the architecture document. > > > Agree. The mgmt docs must refer to the arch not, but I don't see why the > other way around is required. > Like I said, I'm agnostic. > >> >>> What this "operations and management section" should contain is the >>> points that >>> operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. A= n >>> architecture document is typically the first document people will read. >>> RFC >>> 5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I >>> understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the >>> answers at >>> this point in time. >>> >> >> This would be the topic for a different document. > > > Agree. There is other work in the WG to address this. It would seem out o= f > scope for an arch doc. > > Agree, I see how an RFC5706 structured document for BIER could make sense but it's outside the scope of the architecture doc. If anything, the architecture document currently says TOO much about it in its scope. > >>> Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, >>> except >>> that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's not >>> called >>> a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable >>> >>> - Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What abo= ut >>> anycast/unicast? >>> >> >> You could use BIER to do a unicast, by setting only one bit in the >> BitString. However, there are other more efficient encapsulations for >> unicast tunnels. >> > In certain scenarios people will in fact use the one-bit-equal-unicast and pay the encapsulation price. In others, they will follow unicast paths/tunnels. I was told, the problem exists today already with traditional multicast for certain applications. The architecture does NOT prohibit a one-bit-is-unicast (as traditional multicast doesn't preclude it from being used between a single sender-receiver pair) use and that's all is required from the architecture. >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Eric C Rosen >> To: Victor Kuarsingh , Warren Kumari < >> warren@kumari.net>, Benoit Claise , ops-dir@ietf.org, >> draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, >> prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:12:53 -0400 >> Subject: Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 >> Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review. >> >> (1). Security Considerations >>> >>> >>> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the >>> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid >>> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I >>> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein >>> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference >>> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced into >>> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets >>> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that >>> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this >>> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to >>> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. >>> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create >>> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this use >>> case is addressed as noted. >>> >> >> The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot >> know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. I >> can say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept >> BIER-encapsulated packets from outside the domain. That addresses one so= rt >> of threat. >> >> The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER >> encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add >> that certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the >> BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. >> >> It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER >> encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits i= n >> the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). >> >> I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized >>> incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs. Could this be an issue >>> from the authors standpoint? In more traditional networks, there are >>> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not >>> introduced into the system. I wanted to make sure there was thoughts >>> on how to do this with BIER. >>> >> >> The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where >> BIER-encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead >> outside the domain. I'm not sure what else one would do. >> >> >>> >>> (2). SPF assumed. >>> >>> >>> I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say >>> in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard >>> IGP. However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing >>> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP. These networks use = all BGP >>> (eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships. This helps reduce >>> the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may >>> not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system >>> information. Do the authors consider this use case one that can be >>> address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would addition= al >>> considerations be needed? >>> >> >> With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to >> use BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixe= s) >> that is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions. I don't think anything >> explicit needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses >> IGP-based distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any tex= t >> there that requires the control plane to be IGP-based. >> >> In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "routin= g >> underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear that = all >> the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from BFR-id = to >> BFR-prefix to set of next hops. Some of the techniques discussed for >> tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed neighbor= s >> do assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional. >> >> So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to b= e >> added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing >> underlays. I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that >> OSPF/IS-IS are not portrayed as strict requirements. >> >> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and = did not see >>> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described >>> above. >>> >> >> ... >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Victor Kuarsingh >> To: Eric C Rosen >> Cc: Warren Kumari , Benoit Claise = , >> ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.all@ietf.org, >> gjshep@gmail.com, prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:22:16 -0400 >> Subject: Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Eric C Rosen >> wrote: >> > Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review. >> > >> >> (1). Security Considerations >> >> >> >> >> >> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the >> >> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid >> >> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs). I >> >> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein >> >> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference >> >> where it is addressed). The concern is if a packet is introduced int= o >> >> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets >> >> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) tha= t >> >> attempts to starve resources in the system. One way of doing this >> >> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to >> >> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e. >> >> set a single - or all bits - for all SIs). This would then create >> >> the maximum amount of replication within the system. Perhaps this us= e >> >> case is addressed as noted. >> > >> > >> > The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned = ot >> > know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not. >> I can >> > say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encapsulat= ed >> > packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. >> > >> > The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER >> > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can ad= d >> that >> > certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the >> > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks. >> > >> > It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER >> > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits >> in >> > the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended). >> >> >> Sure, I think that helps. >> > Actually, quite interesting observations. We could specify procedures to deal e.g. with packets sources from unknown BFR-ids and so on but IMO that would quickly overwhelm the security section in an architecture document and ultimately may talk about lots of things that will be never of interest. We should acknowledge the attack vectors and if necessary, those shall be adressed by a detailed security draft for BIER I think ... >> ... >> > >> >> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document a= nd did not see >> >> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I describe= d >> >> above. >> > >> > >> > I won't comment on the "use cases" document. >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of >> note) >> >> >> >> >> >> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2), >> >> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was >> >> described. So my question is, would an operational model which >> >> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normally >> >> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architecture a= s >> >> described? My best estimate would be that the operator would use two >> >> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of each >> >> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFRs). >> >> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router/de= vice to allow for >> >> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network leve= l >> >> detection and re-routing is not sufficient). >> > >> > >> > If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and >> each >> > ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing = to >> > stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the >> same >> > set of egress points. The egress node would have to be able to tell >> when it >> > was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy >> as >> > the one to forward further. The BIER encapsulations (not described in >> the >> > architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes thi= s >> > possible. If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress node >> could >> > switch to the other flow. How it determines when to do this is outsid= e >> the >> > scope of BIER, of course. >> > >> > If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through th= e >> > network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different >> > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other. This would require >> two >> > sub-domains. This really becomes a network design issue, but could >> > certainly be handled by BIER. >> > >> > So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these >> cases, >> > but BIER is only a piece of the solution. >> >> Fair. Again, no action was necessarily required per say. Just wanted >> to validate. >> > BIER allows for many protection/replication schemes. We have IGP FRR built in, we have subdomains including IGP MT mapping and we have provisions for the future to allow IGPs e.g. to compute different trees (or those could be provisioned/signalled by other mechanisms). It is kind of implied in the architecture/current signalling and again, detailed considerations, if anyone so inclined, may merit a detailed separate document based on experience in the deployments thanks -- tony --f403043e51ec32024c0553adab27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
inline comments as chair helping out the shepherd and edit= or ... Cut out tons text to abbreviate this (by now) longish text ...=C2=A0=

On Thu, Jul 6= , 2017 at 11:43 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
Inline:

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:45 A= M, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:
On 7/6/2017 9:13 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

1. I want to come back to the experimental status.

 The status of the document is a political issue that should not impact the = content of the document.

I would say= process over political. But I agree it should have no bearing on the conte= nt of the document.

Yes, this is a process/track issue and I would not consider an architectur= e document well-crafted if its text had to argue the document itself onto a= track ;-) The work either stands in its quality/adoption to present a stan= dards track or doesn't and then such track is meaningless. The bar set = to adopt this work on IETF standard track by Alia has been arguably very hi= gh but the current agreement has been struck with the chairs based on her m= ost excellent argument that we're touching the "hourglass" an= d with that more rigorous standards apply ... IMO we are all better off for= it longer term.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0


I have seen Alia's reply:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the BIER Charter, work item 9 describes a document b= ased on deployment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experience that can justify moving the BIER work from E= xperimental to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Standards Track.=C2=A0 When I chartered the WG, it wasn= 't clear whether it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0merely a good idea or a good idea with enough motivatio= ns towards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment that it is worth complicating the architectu= re at the narrow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point of the IP hourglass.

>From the writeup, it seems that the experiment is successful already:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The vendors are being quite tight lipped about current = implementations.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operator feedback indicates there are at least two impl= ementations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently, with others in the works. There are currentl= y five vendors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0collaborating on the work in the IETF.

However, I've not been following the specifications development and
implementation to provide a definitive answer.

At the minimum, the document needs to describe what the criteria are for a<= br> successful experiment.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations (RFC7942?)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0two interop implementations?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hardware implementation?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"deployment experience" (to cite the charter = text)?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact analysis?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something else?

The ideal BIER document for this explanation is this architecture doc.

 The above is all entirely outside the scope of this document.
<= div>
Agree. This is in the charter. If/when the the ca= se is made to transition all of the BIER work to the standards track the do= cuments' contents should not change.

Yes, the standard of adoption into standards track is= entirely a charter issue IMO and this can be formulated along e.g. lines s= uggested by Benoit within the charter.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

2. operations and management section
I'm sure there are such considerations:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- configuration
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- sub-domain management
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- BFR-id management
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- adding new BFIR/BFER device to the domain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- logging
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- troubleshooting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- OAM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- etc.

I am unaware of any RFC that requires such a section to be included in a do= cument like this.=C2=A0 These topics are outside the scope of this document= .

=C2=A0Agree. There are other docum= ents in the WG to address some of the above concerns. None of these seem ap= propriate for an architecture document.

I am agnostic whether architecture document shall REFE= R to e.g. OAM document. However, folding those documents/considerations int= o a detailed architecture document =C2=A0(like this one is) will make it un= wieldy and loose the forest for the trees. If anything, this architecture s= ays too much about things like operational details (since we want to leave = the mechanism applied @ the discretion of particular implementation, BIER c= an be IGP signalled, statically configured, controller provisioned and so o= n without breaking the architecture. Same applies for BFR-id). Unless speci= fic standards RFC dictates that those considerations must be included in a = detailed fashion in this architecture document I would also argue that they= do not belong here.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

There are also two other management documents that should be referenced: chartered item 6 and 7.

 These are outside the scope of the architecture document.
=
Agree. The mgmt docs must refer to the arch not, but = I don't see why the other way around is required.

Like I said, I'm agnostic.=C2=A0
=C2=A0


What this "operations and management section" should contain is t= he points that
operators, who will deploy this technology, have to pay attention to. An architecture document is typically the first document people will read. RFC=
5706 appendix A provide typical questions from an OPS point of view. I
understand that this is an experiment and you might not have all the answer= s at
this point in time.

 This would be the topic for a different document.

Agree. There is other work in the WG to address this. It woul= d seem out of scope for an arch doc.

=

Agree, I see how an RFC5706 structured doc= ument for BIER could make sense but it's outside the scope of the archi= tecture doc. If anything, the architecture document currently says TOO much= about it in its scope.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Just one observation. Was thinking, so it's like an (OSPF) routerId, ex= cept
that it's called a prefix. Then I understood, reading further. It's= not called
a routerId because this address/prefix must be routable

- Was wondering. Is this mechanism only for multicast packets? What about anycast/unicast?

 You could use BIER to do a unicast, by setting only one bit in the BitStrin= g.=C2=A0 However, there are other more efficient encapsulations for unicast= tunnels.

<= /div>
In certain scenarios people will in fact use the one-bit-equal-un= icast and pay =C2=A0the encapsulation price. In others, they will follow un= icast paths/tunnels. I was told, the problem exists today already with trad= itional multicast for certain applications. The architecture does NOT prohi= bit a one-bit-is-unicast (as traditional multicast doesn't preclude it = from being used between a single sender-receiver pair) use and that's a= ll is required from the architecture.=C2=A0


=

---------- Forwarded message ----------From:=C2=A0Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
To:=C2=A0Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com&g= t;, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-= architecture.all@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bc= c:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:12:53 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re:= Ops-Dir Review of Draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07
Victor, thanks f= or taking the time to do this review.

(1). Security Considerations


It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how the
BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoid
certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs).=C2=A0 I may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herein
(if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference
where it is addressed).=C2=A0 The concern is if a packet is introduced into=
the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packets
(may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) that
attempts to starve resources in the system.=C2=A0 One way of doing this
(which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to
set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.e.
set a single=C2=A0 - or all bits -=C2=A0 for all SIs).=C2=A0 This would the= n create
the maximum amount of replication within the system.=C2=A0 Perhaps this use=
case is addressed as noted.

 The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned ot kn= ow which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I can say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER= -encapsulated packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of t= hreat.

The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER encap= sulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can add that cer= tain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the BitString,= are potential vectors for DoS attacks.

It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER encaps= ulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits in the Bit= String, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended).

I was not able to find specific operations/functions which scrutinized
incoming packets and/or guard for bad NBRs.=C2=A0 Could this be an issue from the authors standpoint?=C2=A0 In more traditional networks, there are<= br> methods operators use to ensure that illegitimate traffic is not
introduced into the system.=C2=A0 I wanted to make sure there was thoughts<= br> on how to do this with BIER.

The only check like this is at the boundaries of a BIER domain, where BIER-= encapsulated packets are not accepted from interfaces that lead outside the= domain.=C2=A0 I'm not sure what else one would do.



(2). SPF assumed.


I agree most places where the BIER architecture would likely live (say
in Enterprises and SP networks) the network would operate a standard
IGP.=C2=A0 However, in some use cases, like modern DCs, some are designing<= br> fabrics which don=E2=80=99t use a traditional IGP.=C2=A0 These networks use= all BGP
(eBGP) with full sets of neighbor relationships.=C2=A0 This helps reduce the amount of running protocols within the underlay, but may (or may
not) cause issues with BIER in relation distribution of system
information.=C2=A0 Do the authors consider this use case one that can be address with BIER as it=E2=80=99s currently outlined, or would additional considerations be needed?

 With regard to the control plane, there is a draft that explains how to use= BGP to distribute the same information (labels, BFR-ids, BFR-prefixes) tha= t is distributed via OSPF or ISIS extensions.=C2=A0 I don't think anyth= ing explicit needs to be said in the architecture; the architecture uses IG= P-based distribution as an example, but I don't think there is any text= there that requires the control plane to be IGP-based.

In the data plane, the document does focus on the case where the "rout= ing underlay" is IGP-based (link-state-based), but I think it is clear= that all the routing underlay really needs to provide is the mapping from = BFR-id to BFR-prefix to set of next hops.=C2=A0 Some of the techniques disc= ussed for tunneling around non-BFR neighbors or for routing around failed n= eighbors do assume link state routing, but these techniques are optional.
So to answer your question, I don't think anything additional needs to = be added to the architecture to accommodate non-traditional routing underla= ys.=C2=A0 I'll do another read-through to make sure it's clear that= OSPF/IS-IS are not portrayed as strict requirements.

I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D document and did= not see
text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I described
above.

...=C2=A0


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Victor Kuarsi= ngh <victor@jvkne= t.com>
To:=C2=A0Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Cc:=C2=A0Warren Kumar= i <warren@kumari.= net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-architecture.a<= wbr>ll@ietf.org, = gjshep@gmail.com, = prz@juniper.net, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, = 30 Jun 2017 11:22:16 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: Ops-Dir Review of Draft-iet= f-bier-architecture-07
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Eric C Ros= en <erosen@junip= er.net> wrote:
> Victor, thanks for taking the time to do this review.
>
>> (1). Security Considerations
>>
>>
>> It was not 100% clear to the reviewer (me) if the use case of how = the
>> BIER architecture (or guidance for future implementation) may avoi= d
>> certain DoS like activity from illegitimate neighbors (BFR-NBRs).= =C2=A0 I
>> may have missed specific text which addresses the point made herei= n
>> (if so, please disregard my first point and please make reference<= br> >> where it is addressed).=C2=A0 The concern is if a packet is introd= uced into
>> the system by a host (compromised perhaps) which fabricates packet= s
>> (may or may not have valid payload inside the BIER encapsulation) = that
>> attempts to starve resources in the system.=C2=A0 One way of doing= this
>> (which may require control plane access - maybe) would be to
>> set/create packets which forces additional replication at BFRs (i.= e.
>> set a single=C2=A0 - or all bits -=C2=A0 for all SIs).=C2=A0 This = would then create
>> the maximum amount of replication within the system.=C2=A0 Perhaps= this use
>> case is addressed as noted.
>
>
 > The security considerations do say that every BFR must be provisioned = ot
> know which of its interfaces lead to a BIER domain and which do not.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0I can
> say a little more explicitly that one shouldn't accept BIER-encaps= ulated
> packets from outside the domain. That addresses one sort of threat. >
> The security consideratons do point out that modification of the BIER<= br> > encapsulation through error or malfeasance cause misdelivery. I can ad= d that
> certain sorts of modifications, such as setting all the bits in the > BitString, are potential vectors for DoS attacks.
>
> It is probably worth pointing out as well that when the initial BIER > encapsulation is imposed, certain errors, such as setting all the bits= in
> the BitString, can result in DoS attacks (intended or unintended).


Sure, I think that helps.

Actually, quite interesting observations. We could specif= y procedures to deal e.g.=C2=A0
with packets sources from unknown= BFR-ids and so on but IMO that would quickly=C2=A0
overwhelm the= security section in an architecture document and ultimately may talk
=
about lots of things that will be never of interest. We should acknowl= edge the attack
vectors and if necessary, those shall be adressed= by a detailed security draft for BIER=C2=A0
I think ...=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0...=C2=A0
>
>> I reviewed the =E2=80=9Cdraft-ietf-bier-use-cases=E2=80=9D documen= t and did not see
>> text that specifically help or hinder the operational mode I descr= ibed
>> above.
>
>
 > I won't comment on the "use cases" document.
>
>>
>>
>> (3) Broadcast Video Operation. (more of a question then a point of= note)
>>
>>
>> I did noticed in the use case document (as noted above in point 2)= ,
>> that considers more traditional broadcast video networks was
>> described.=C2=A0 So my question is, would an operational model whi= ch
>> required two simultaneous M/C flows from separate sources (normall= y
>> two packagers/encryptors etc) be supported by the BIER architectur= e as
>> described?=C2=A0 My best estimate would be that the operator would= use two
>> sub-domains that would allow each BFER to potentially get two of e= ach
>> packet (which are sourced by two different injection points / BIFR= s).
>> This mode of operation is common in some places to allow the M/C >> broadcast feed to be =E2=80=9Cpinned=E2=80=9D to the egress router= /device to allow for
>> fast switchover in case of network failure (where normal network l= evel
>> detection and re-routing is not sufficient).
>
>
 > If a flow enters the BIER domain at two different ingress points, and = each
> ingress point knows the egress points for that flow, there is nothing = to
> stop both ingress points from using BIER to multicast the flow to the = same
> set of egress points.=C2=A0 The egress node would have to be able to t= ell when it
> was receiving two copies of the flow, so that it could choose one copy= as
> the one to forward further.=C2=A0 The BIER encapsulations (not describ= ed in the
> architecture) do carry the BFIR-id in the BIER header, which makes thi= s
> possible.=C2=A0 If the flow from one ingress node fails, the egress no= de could
> switch to the other flow.=C2=A0 How it determines when to do this is o= utside the
> scope of BIER, of course.
>
> If it is desired that the two copies of a given flow travel through th= e
> network along disjoint paths, one would have to set up two different > "routing underlays", each disjoint from the other.=C2=A0 Thi= s would require two
> sub-domains.=C2=A0 This really becomes a network design issue, but cou= ld
> certainly be handled by BIER.
>
> So to answer your question, I believe the architecture handles these c= ases,
> but BIER is only a piece of the solution.

Fair.=C2=A0 Again, no action was necessarily required per say.=C2=A0 Just w= anted
to validate.

=
BIER allows for many protection/replication schemes. We have IGP FRR b= uilt in, we have subdomains
including IGP MT mapping and we have = provisions for the future to allow IGPs e.g. to=C2=A0
compute dif= ferent trees (or those could be provisioned/signalled by other mechanisms).= =C2=A0
It is kind of implied in the architecture/current signalli= ng and again, detailed considerations,=C2=A0
if anyone so incline= d, may merit a detailed separate document based on experience in
= the deployments=C2=A0

thanks=C2=A0

<= /div>
-- tony=C2=A0
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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jul 2017 03:37:07.3476 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2938 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 03:37:14 -0000 --_000_C965C8387A734FFC949B8C8C9127C2DAnokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2UgaGF2ZSBkaXNjdXNzZWQgdGhpcyBhdCB0aGUgbGFzdCBXRyBtZWV0aW5nLiBJIHdhcyBvbmUg d2hvIHJhaXNlZCBhIGNvbmNlcm4gYWJvdXQgRXhwZXJpbWVudGFsIHZzIFN0YW5kYXJkcyBtb3Zl LiBNeSBjb25jZXJuIGlzIHN0aWxsIHZhbGlkIGJ1dCBpdCBkb2VzIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgYXBwbHkg 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header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jp4X2EeIWtcj for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7F53129B2E for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 32so14577737qtv.1 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:59:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XNL7JbYfxRVhCnfS7EcOw4P1ULlFGN+BJ3/vchOmR9w=; b=d/dnt1KFbWVfe3xFMEK+6u+yliHy+WWJJmQSaQe9awPq/nOCx3G0dyFrc9o91D0pYc nUT1niE1PQ5AeALJwMY+/MDz+YsxN2WRH0NsTKhtQ6w0hmbnZJK58ZOWBkpHp2WCcDXV 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(PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.54.101 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:59:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c08e87c1d31620554200f0a" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 14:59:15 -0000 --94eb2c08e87c1d31620554200f0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is the current list of presentation request received so far. I'm missing a presenter name for PIMoBIER. Please send any additional request soon so I can publish the complete agenda. draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling 10 min Hooman Bidgoli draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-01 15 min Sandy Zhang draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-analysis-00 BIER-TE/BIER-TE-FRR 10 min Toerless Eckert PIMoBIER 10 min draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 15 min Jeffrey Zhang Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --94eb2c08e87c1d31620554200f0a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is the current list of presentation request received = so far. I'm missing a presenter name for PIMoBIER. Please send any addi= tional request soon so I can publish the complete agenda.

draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10 min=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hooman Bi= dgoli

draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15 min=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sandy Zhang

draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-analysis-00

BIER-TE/BIER-TE-FRR=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10 min =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Toerless Eckert

PIMoBIER=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10 min

draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15 min=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeffrey Z= hang


Thanks,

Greg (Chairs)

--94eb2c08e87c1d31620554200f0a-- From nobody Sat Jul 15 18:01:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F4D12F092 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B2hguiiiu9mz for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F94A12EAF9 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v17so93664753qka.3 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LmWN+8DYFu2IzedG8UtzhQwr1seYrN8xzMaxe83QJxo=; b=lTrtyfma2XVN2JgpNfjsGrLh3GdN+wSR0Tg1glK4+T9BsoHZ/B1EiAd5Xs06iJSUA7 l4/eZeZneiTQrcPo13W+mahH2+9cbZ79BmSQ3q8aKgxbLtuBy5RaV0BcS7EXmF0N/nHP P3mXUiDt/pV2VGJ/iCo6XTYuN4sbnIDrJApegsewgmNZi+q5Z34hnf5a60woFoBLyyUG YhOBq+WXabvHk8f/TLFQ7JEdK/abLSNV6KshGmO7uDgrjbJ4raM8IEEvk5g0woS0j6yZ 6GrPdrJCFkwYJZi9VOQDpt5Z0labp9RLz8G/H6tHle0LHgUz2oh3je3ROHssBbMkh3u1 youw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=LmWN+8DYFu2IzedG8UtzhQwr1seYrN8xzMaxe83QJxo=; b=R4V/UDEanpmStdAYPtOjY8kP6RUDtjDOdVstMP2oxEY5BoJvwVMltMxS2IpL8KMx2J QoNIBqXMieHDgP4EosGC8ZUUViZ3oB/w5jVz7VXTehheUT8o13LCyA5aLv1z6Qn9RSCj 7lhxSgOVxCIgC0QYLkOYG22YuEPlhRYFNs1dRuDVYLaC3EnpDcVmOJpzP6hDlTdM929x RLUU0ERAFvwU+Q42Bi3CIxAyMzO632Jgzj+GZqwW30ic1pK31nMAejhQYKXyi4vd0IR1 CuFnLzBe+qVpklx8yCOaBfq/oQZSSClQkjlKvIoIwlui5UT3O0ZG7OeAjg3CgCWCtqLG BhAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110EuVY0qE6K+MU1w+5apWjAzqWizsw1BuOyavMZUBCtWV5HHlE8 bTqJqICLcTBxZT8ZKR7e0VdR6O4J7oES X-Received: by 10.233.237.211 with SMTP id c202mr18112820qkg.1.1500166858646; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.54.101 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:00:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1148ad7cb6baca055464d0b8" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 01:01:01 -0000 --001a1148ad7cb6baca055464d0b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if anything is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down to get it all in, sorry. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/bier Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who you are.. ;-) See you all in Prague. Cheers, Greg (Chairs) --001a1148ad7cb6baca055464d0b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me kno= w if anything is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to c= ut times down to get it all in, sorry.


Please send slides= ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the meeting. Some have alrea= dy sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who you are.. ;-)

<= /div>
See you all in Prague.

Cheers,
Greg
(Chairs)=C2=A0
--001a1148ad7cb6baca055464d0b8-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 00:41:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BE8131A6E for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LjZQKZowiWOq for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9B03131945 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id n42so2888282qtn.0 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ad32no3lLLeSKBXEQO+3LE4DYf4GYtpRw+WESJQbX7g=; b=IGUn7HIb/Udz7J2P5IDt+2AzIDZsOvmU4POOaHuyGXvOtRZGS9Nvt/MzBxAS5YdsGl IYlCe6+miDucIkaeX4loTzhPVXjNB/jH9T0830PFeLLRNdNNccAb0o9PbfLl8vUi1h6M 1TvDq2/ARgiPcrdjMx2rQx3+66Ia2Fa0lVkcSfoOe/Wglvdxz+LGH5iVN4OjYMmk5hoW EwvbkZJHB2ruQDmjINb/lJFs+AfJ4O7/a21qLNTcqoIMI9S08JOvNrNCuugZ0PLHaVFO LXWLCSvLUFncYPrs1O9s1+rUXZNgYsfpyzEUU7R3cU3yQ1SchF3jWrlzOxNw3s9tOAaw IcUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ad32no3lLLeSKBXEQO+3LE4DYf4GYtpRw+WESJQbX7g=; b=REM4vuXmdEmWxMGbG9ND+IcAYTeK29rftVEXfBovt8SO201tJTyI+ah/yiLFfVU+87 GG6qdTNQFE2uMDNEBQe2SLl3eh2PZRRR30eug0WT8jF/dnetiVd/0UkWNcOgdWCFkcIh wtM9tYIYOoL6vBg7tZnXNusRWtcDr6xPlyycjBr2bN+1b7jBhXROxZ65F45PafBLeFyD Qai1oyIYqhe9evawbEhjchodKRF+CFfGZP53EmP2Hb/zulviwsf7I6e5gYhe8d7mVE3g i96iJLsgKqveAq6dWEml+vcawlCpbjgNFbEFXHCYpCR6inW6JL2xlNUX9sh6sqDBJ1x8 ckAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111A3a6ALs/NXyD9Rjm5pwW0tR8JDRieEqIunq9FlTQNZbUQgU5y KjzGU5yex5hP3rXv5DCqioCkhtGBHg== X-Received: by 10.237.45.67 with SMTP id h61mr24983045qtd.246.1500277291620; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.22.227 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:41:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd , Antoni Przygienda Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c124a88081dd905547e87ee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:41:34 -0000 --94eb2c124a88081dd905547e87ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Greg and Tony, two WG drafts are stable, mature and authors would ask the WG to consider WG LCing: - PMTUD for BIER draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery; - Performance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam Kind regards, Greg On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if anything is > missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down to > get it all in, sorry. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/bier > > Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the > meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who > you are.. ;-) > > See you all in Prague. > > Cheers, > Greg > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c124a88081dd905547e87ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg and Tony,
two WG drafts are stable, mature and= authors would ask the WG to consider WG LCing:
  • PMTUD for= BIER=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery;
  • Performance Measurem= ent with Marking Method in BIER draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam
Kind= regards,
Greg

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd <gj= shep@gmail.com> wrote:
The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if= anything is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut t= imes down to get it all in, sorry.


Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the meeti= ng. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who you = are.. ;-)

See you all in Prague.

Cheers,
Greg
(Chairs)=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--94eb2c124a88081dd905547e87ee-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 01:03:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEED4131798; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 01:03:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150027860973.32725.6910726206518800078@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 01:03:29 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:03:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery (PMTUD) for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer Authors : Greg Mirsky Tony Przygienda Andrew Dolganow Filename : draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-02.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2017-07-17 Abstract: This document describes Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery (PMTUD) in Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (BIER) layer. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 17 07:35:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4D2131C21 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7RuxOmnndEi for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E5E1131C1D for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id p73so58500052qka.2 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=rVG/2f3Thy+zt6AYcuLL7qlngp8KoPwphTNiTeecjq0=; b=DQujL+qeFvUv2p2hPUyafYiX/VtBwaXfMoy78OrXUZiL5HbcuFbYLumq+q0PMEgOJ8 cNLhNPtz2OuzNWDLnFnovxqzoFK14Md5VFm4QP8frMixjAKMF1kXvRSY9Q1QKRwUl96V zjqKrdkAxQrVzz2H2WUxzPd5ztzer1qkvrIEbqPsIi/gaRmmIsEOEoKMkAE8k0WUP/bm g7m06iAyPqpUscIP9Pblr9rpAG43E3lIZfaHtlFE+3FsoUz6X24dOTlYGOxqf9EmDT/6 +/tfd7xuEcvZASuVxO/dEG45wfwvjdLQFyY0tOc0LepG3zLOVVW1A6lCB63+bW2Sqhri Ra0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rVG/2f3Thy+zt6AYcuLL7qlngp8KoPwphTNiTeecjq0=; b=fhm1kf300p80SQ3xiObuiCKuGI+8PXY3bsFFBiO9WMawuIGcKe78b6wb91CYOMzt75 vyC2f84T6eyHNd9Jv93v8Z0Z/9S48MEXM+Npb06IsP82sAdJqcSqYOD4hqXN4GQJbdBC aF7d/ceJQ+pTTlbXHFzkhQfj2/1gjF3FbxMqQw1W9fRnBlV/MwhIrV3zge57UPvpltQc 84g9P6+arUD4VrxpSk6B/XoLqDPEvBFxXwDCDdvPOBtLJmSXnhrcvO3+xkPnsb8ttrJJ 0wq9nv39cQlcTRXsR8SKPA16wX0NgBuQj6LhtHBYFO0XdpwjsJ/QFf9srlkvYY9qVFjH CvDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111cGI8mXTIVkD04RFWeOI2+V+S43byMTe6c4EzRrBPQpbYJYZ6l +0pbgshCVAoNsKN1nuTB5nS2ZvyJXg== X-Received: by 10.55.59.66 with SMTP id i63mr26245655qka.15.1500302109296; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.47.186 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1148bc7447cd0b0554844e28" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:35:12 -0000 --001a1148bc7447cd0b0554844e28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Let's take this to the room on Thurs, then follow-up on the list, following the room response. Thanks, Greg On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Greg and Tony, > two WG drafts are stable, mature and authors would ask the WG to consider > WG LCing: > > - PMTUD for BIER draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery; > - Performance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER > draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam > > Kind regards, > Greg > > On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > >> The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if anything >> is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down >> to get it all in, sorry. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/bier >> >> Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the >> meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who >> you are.. ;-) >> >> See you all in Prague. >> >> Cheers, >> Greg >> (Chairs) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --001a1148bc7447cd0b0554844e28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's take this to the room on Thurs, then follow-up o= n the list, following the room response.

Thanks,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= > wrote:
H= i Greg and Tony,
two WG drafts are stable, mature and authors would ask= the WG to consider WG LCing:
  • PMTUD for BIER=C2=A0draft-i= etf-bier-path-mtu-discovery;
  • Performance Measurement with Mark= ing Method in BIER draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam
Kind regards,
Greg

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Sh= epherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
The agenda is pub= lished. Please take a look and let me know if anything is missing. We only = got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down to get it all in, so= rry.


Please send slides ASAP. I wi= ll not take slides on a memstick at the meeting. Some have already sent the= m, thanks! The rest of you, you know who you are.. ;-)

S= ee you all in Prague.

Cheers,
Greg
=
(Chairs)=C2=A0

_____________________________________= __________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--001a1148bc7447cd0b0554844e28-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 07:35:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E919131C18 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MZNjQ_LGON2H for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BEED131C22 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 21so32279837qtx.3 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=N7x/WGc8tlUrUcc6B8skBQmV6rAmOn3FEJEJmTovdAo=; b=MOFfI3jF3KtScnq9vRU4yf3B/iJhSo/K5q95pT7Abdo2vXWZPMmLZh1jtJwAdiU/Up siCQwvHwkMjzO5aw14XmSFSgoJvhZvOHPUTsPnybMUDOWxrlWqhK8WVqrNNN7/Rvv5xL e/FFqNf6Cv544IHVSUPwK9e8M5dGTB7KEPIVWM1RUfsYoagNf/I0ru0A08zG7mrQ1rQ6 1bB3XLRFYN5621BRBMYYuLA0o0mxdcP+luzmnVh0de58IP94XFhLC9vQArUu0h+iODgY rid59gytIuIWYn53+6oDEKU0j7qhMBr2Iq7EmEoHa27mF7xo0B3Ne5y7yfHW9Z2K95Hv N9mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N7x/WGc8tlUrUcc6B8skBQmV6rAmOn3FEJEJmTovdAo=; b=ZsUz5ax815pCV0zd7ntW3mI7Wfu/2/rDAXVBX0TA2x4nwVFXhlUEJF5bw1n+9m/Xa3 RU1D5wMveR8yL0qRORMyHWso/TC2hgaNlZPgMTCx9GtWN6POQFm/VFC/VxNQLw+JUNv6 WqaWhH2NIz09aN9R5Cdy75uxtaOwCP2rPkfy7Dzf6isufZVBlMUqXlV4caN2wJ16M792 t7rlJt+Us+Y3NDlX88mLs1mPzafGif7oFZodfHpMPVge5FT15xaesoMeA2x4afBI0dLA i0CjonKUue1v9TISrqG4D6mFHSi7EzfE45A/AfJWWaYetBdiG2YLOsSaew3LyJkhVpn4 mWGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110+UURSvaC201GMtSHlvSc78UO3t7DQSTYs1A65w1/oSO9pJSFw iupQlqrSSRHIzYg5F347ErenOmj/vQ== X-Received: by 10.237.42.125 with SMTP id k58mr10074966qtf.58.1500302117424; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.47.186 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:35:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140e620c3d52b0554844ed9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 14:35:27 -0000 --001a1140e620c3d52b0554844ed9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks, Greg On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Let's take this to the room on Thurs, then follow-up on the list, > following the room response. > > Thanks, > Greg > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > >> Hi Greg and Tony, >> two WG drafts are stable, mature and authors would ask the WG to consider >> WG LCing: >> >> - PMTUD for BIER draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery; >> - Performance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER >> draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam >> >> Kind regards, >> Greg >> >> On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: >> >>> The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if anything >>> is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down >>> to get it all in, sorry. >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/bier >>> >>> Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the >>> meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who >>> you are.. ;-) >>> >>> See you all in Prague. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Greg >>> (Chairs) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>> >> > --001a1140e620c3d52b0554844ed9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks,
Greg
On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Greg Shepherd = <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Let's take this to the room on Thurs, then follow-up on= the list, following the room response.

Thanks,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, = Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Greg and Tony,
two WG drafts a= re stable, mature and authors would ask the WG to consider WG LCing:
<= div>
  • PMTUD for BIER=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery;
  • Performance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER draft-ietf-bier-p= mmm-oam
Kind regards,
Greg

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep= @gmail.com> wrote:
The agend= a is published. Please take a look and let me know if anything is missing. = We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times down to get it al= l in, sorry.


Please send slides AS= AP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the meeting. Some have already = sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you know who you are.. ;-)

See you all in Prague.

Cheers,
Gr= eg
(Chairs)=C2=A0

_______________________________________________<= br> BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




--001a1140e620c3d52b0554844ed9-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 10:26:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D34124E15; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 10:26:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150031237362.24466.12324373615753372473@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 10:26:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-05.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:26:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : BIER Use Cases Authors : Nagendra Kumar Rajiv Asati Mach(Guoyi) Chen Xiaohu Xu Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Arkadiy Gulko Dom Robinson Vishal Arya Caitlin Bestler Filename : draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-05.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2017-07-17 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document describes some of the use-cases for BIER. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 18 01:21:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8819120227; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:20:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150036605587.11429.2820396234987752375@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:20:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 08:20:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) Requirements for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer Authors : Greg Mirsky Erik Nordmark Carlos Pignataro Nagendra Kumar Sam Aldrin Lianshu Zheng Mach Chen Nobo Akiya Santosh Pallagatti Filename : draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2017-07-18 Abstract: This document describes a list of functional requirement toward Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) toolset in Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) layer of a network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 18 01:23:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EB4131A5F for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id voAYzhzyKWzA for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325E7120227 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t2so7566978qkc.1 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BJjVm3idDIJwR2MKJA1Hex3WiwUyqyNfjd7n8A6todI=; b=a0VOeP1Jg6fAW1uQ7geBP2J4veSot11scfLOLEWVAYNspCnOC00LcIWUeUaKw5AxlE hQ7OfNemjWeSRdzWh5nVPRHK90YLb2fUMEwTtqAN9iK/RFgp3tSgPhRBul7s3Wwutblb 6KRylJLiJJOQB/BRZIjjCjZmt4+nZ+aZvbqMQEkSpsBceSxjcr4CBBY1+3t9ssR7G1gB 60JGFXQjueZbk3vsqdRIRhsK4ALaQDHpm6ylbZX+EsVQT2bYu3C3ThmGuN2Lb/uC1Zfj AuTg9pdENczbN8pk0fkeXzkQHwrUmJn0X17GADsDgrHFZCVmOVVTFBx5GF9056sz3KUX p+Gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=BJjVm3idDIJwR2MKJA1Hex3WiwUyqyNfjd7n8A6todI=; b=TKRTu6WQXhN6XXQ0/QCz3bkR27J5zeehQZ6+53RxjWBA9pA960uwlaMIBVjnrbwx56 4ZsR1Bfj94ioW1554x5jaKY40PKwsJOkmo8742C35AzFFaZElv4FwlbWe9uEwpyu/d9m PUp07DuUnSaomgSJl/PgyeRkHflIEYEcOuxjdgLNP+HWFMPt4hpCL+r3TXxBdh0Iw2Hf 6TT52pppXc5W4Gtf7kjakf6Es6Yq3r6IDX60bnFXzLSP8G7qIO5FeM7feePt7aHxooEh RMG2WAGerUZiB2DwhOQJMVIE9BP42b7XXAt/4pFuXraD0fklGX/u1wmmms0UH+5cGCIi xUAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1115bW3N+SVbIG+6Y6Dui30ndRgRrkqDam6mv3XBxX/wP29LN0SF cvvpW8xGFtmRTAlrwwdsROJfS239uck2 X-Received: by 10.55.72.1 with SMTP id v1mr532745qka.0.1500366225957; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.22.227 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:23:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <150036605597.11429.626541738141748569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150036605597.11429.626541738141748569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:23:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: bier@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a82b6ee6c010554933b50" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 08:23:49 -0000 --001a114a82b6ee6c010554933b50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, this is referesh of the BIER OAM Requirements draft. The document is stable and is ready for WG LC. Greatly appreciate your consideration. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:20 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt To: Nagendra Kumar , Sam Aldrin , Gregory Mirsky , Carlos Pignataro , Erik Nordmark , Nobo Akiya , Mach Chen , Lianshu Zheng , Santosh Pallagatti A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements Revision: 04 Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) Requirements for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer Document date: 2017-07-18 Group: bier Pages: 6 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bier-oam- requirements-04.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-oam- requirements/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam- requirements-04 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam- requirements-04 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-oam- requirements-04 Abstract: This document describes a list of functional requirement toward Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) toolset in Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) layer of a network. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --001a114a82b6ee6c010554933b50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
this is referesh of the BIER OAM Requirement= s draft. The document is stable and is ready for WG LC. Greatly appreciate = your consideration.

Regards,
Greg
<= div>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<= br>From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:20 AM
Subject: New Version Notificati= on for draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt
To: Nagendra Kumar <naikumar@cisco.com>, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com>,= Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gm= ail.com>, Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco.com>, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, Nobo Akiya <nobo.akiya.dev@gmail.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Lianshu Zhen= g <vero.zheng@huawei.com>= ;, Santosh Pallagatti <sa= ntosh.palagatti@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-oam-requ= irements
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A004
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Operations, Administration and Mai= ntenance (OAM) Requirements for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer=
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-07-18
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bier
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-= bier-oam-requirements-04.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requi= rements/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-04
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bier-o= am-requirements-04

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes a list of functional requirement towar= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) toolset in Bi= t Index
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Explicit Replication (BIER) layer of a network.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--001a114a82b6ee6c010554933b50-- From nobody Tue Jul 18 01:49:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4F2131DBD for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:49:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zopduiDZBskw for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42A4A131D0E for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w198so7995250lff.2 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RjuTXZaEvuC7WF3B87edbj+SA3dVhb6FWhl5vI80L54=; b=g3SG1Y46CXBpaRYxZJP4FWDXm4iAki3Wcm/AAzKV1kXG3K/qUZEe5/KXaz7IAAgnzR YOLGvXvX5arbVSRa6Ry+faShVRJd4P2RzIXR2RchCx4xJ1X8sW+Ux2W+W6gEuHqI4FKv /mJTiy5ejZxBUF1FgHfIAWVnYZw145vRBsl+ZQt5ZilZpx9GgHwdpzWQbZ68qBwy22l9 o+SWLyZdB6LqjIh/xcog8q62qAsR5t3FozYmUQpuY/s4kYy7eODFUJAKPZUSWmZBpu4w 2Jb21bI2uYEUYitQ3hBk7Hzlp+JiK5xPhDw1sIbi7qf4lzriM+D+xN5/mX8ElCit819T Q3lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RjuTXZaEvuC7WF3B87edbj+SA3dVhb6FWhl5vI80L54=; b=niKQp102zy5/oE5P8Yn92KyoJkxB+jXOGb6AGfyL87Ez/ulpyV8Bb1urpO6YjmtEpD k3BmzVP8nl1h3Yg+cfV4SYouvxKue/wiJS5no1n8VYNjIC65zdONmytuxG//Nik4vmHu f93SJoEcHYBluBZYSHOJJxG+aJpC3t5bdzNl063Jzqx/ETjdefYmG0yhcP747S1x1AFW ftfaYagtInhNopvmVJVRQz+V+I/xz6v7j8FWN0OCYkS/96kd5AJIRUuHkrSFfs1FH+5t n4zEkMkbHJG0+D+X9UcG2A7wD5VnMrqTlzY/IOjDwizIQ5IrP8/jnljnEpV4Mo+RLLAL 1j8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112voLFxWZez9ZKa18fAitr+MX7hg5K9qhv1t5n7HY3a6YAkEjLr ayGIV9yezKiPHLRdEA/vsFEc1f0CIQ== X-Received: by 10.80.134.217 with SMTP id 25mr994436edu.73.1500367740622; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:49:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.138.99 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:48:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:48:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: Greg Mirsky , "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c28fa365a1f05549396f3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Prague Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 08:49:04 -0000 --f403045c28fa365a1f05549396f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Greg On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Thanks, > Greg > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > >> Let's take this to the room on Thurs, then follow-up on the list, >> following the room response. >> >> Thanks, >> Greg >> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg and Tony, >>> two WG drafts are stable, mature and authors would ask the WG to >>> consider WG LCing: >>> >>> - PMTUD for BIER draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery; >>> - Performance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER >>> draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Greg >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote= : >>> >>>> The agenda is published. Please take a look and let me know if anythin= g >>>> is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I had to cut times = down >>>> to get it all in, sorry. >>>> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/agenda/bier >>>> >>>> Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstick at the >>>> meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you kno= w who >>>> you are.. ;-) >>>> >>>> See you all in Prague. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Greg >>>> (Chairs) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BIER mailing list >>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --f403045c28fa365a1f05549396f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 Greg

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Thanks,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at= 7:35 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
Let's take this to the room on = Thurs, then follow-up on the list, following the room response.

Thanks,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Greg Mirs= ky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Greg and Tony,
two WG drafts are stab= le, mature and authors would ask the WG to consider WG LCing:
  • PMTUD for BIER=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery;
  • P= erformance Measurement with Marking Method in BIER draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam=
    • Kind regards,
    Greg

    On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Greg Sh= epherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
    The agenda is published. Please take a look and l= et me know if anything is missing. We only got an hour slot this time, so I= had to cut times down to get it all in, sorry.

    =
    Please send slides ASAP. I will not take slides on a memstic= k at the meeting. Some have already sent them, thanks! The rest of you, you= know who you are.. ;-)

    See you all in Prague.

    Cheers,
    Greg
    (Chairs)=C2=A0
    =

    _______________________________________________<= br> BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier





    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




    --
    =
    We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards c= ould produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet= , we know that is not true.
    = =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jsNbvf2YAXDE for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC454131DD6 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id t72so8864092lff.1 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:24:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lwIYl1Fu8zvX/Ol9sjWMpRRG0vq19vGAWarGDPBlwj4=; b=SlaNPgMgoW3k8uApDlJZLCcG5Mrew3MIn+t2JpiMEyHS9BaPL0K8WTj5bquO+ay8U5 jSk5MH2qyiiI9CL5REKGIne1oRExBx7XmZvE50Mx0JHKOhUNke6KsEqF+462BCVu8MjP uApiZmdPTRZnGHRyKbeKmFYEu3CU/PWVEnpY05srCiyvuGtxGC+Zfyh4w4P68wojFzUA 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HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 02:23:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2F5AA4AB-E5E7-453E-963C-DF9679DDE2D8@juniper.net> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Cc: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c28fa8a219905549414de" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:24:34 -0000 --f403045c28fa8a219905549414de Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, starts to make more sense if you spell all those assumptions very explicitly in the boilerplate. And give more examples ideally ... I'm on the floor the whole week, ping me 1:1 and we'll talk ... --- tony On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) < andrew.dolganow@nokia.com> wrote: > Inline > > Andrew > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > Read the draft on the plane trying to figure out what=E2=80=99s that abou= t. > Observations > > > > a) First, the draft seems to indicate that it=E2=80=99s draft-rosen= (6037) > and I assume it=E2=80=99s talking about the P-G PIM which is generated by= the PE > and then first P is acting as BER. And it seems to concern mostly SSM. Ju= st > verifying =E2=80=A6 > > > The solution we are targeting runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And yes SSM is > our main target. > > b) I=E2=80=99m suspicious of the 256bits argument somehow. Is the i= dea that > running a single-SI BIER is somehow massively simpler than multiple-SI-s? > The packet WILL split @ replication points & replication is necessary in > any case (unless we have ingress rep for which BIER is not needed) so I > don=E2=80=99t see how single-SI makes much of a difference. > > > There are two goals: > - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due to a > scale. > - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - > evolutionary intro of BIER. > > c) We do not need to burn a protocol bit for PIM albeit yes, it > would be tad more efficient. PIM must be carried in either v4 or v6 frame > which is its normal encoding and already fully supported by BIER encaps. > Additionally, if PIM is stripped of v4/v6 encaps considerations would hav= e > to be made to all the PIM RPF & correct source/destination addresses chec= ks > in the spec AFAIR. Yes, the BER needs to look into v4/v6 packets to see > PIM being tunneled but if we try to accommodate every IP protocol with a > bit, we=E2=80=99ll run out fast. Accomodating a protocol makes most sense= when we > talk heavy-volume dataplane such as maybe VxLAN if we can save headers fo= r > processing speed but PIM is a low volume control protocol and the check i= s > trivial since it=E2=80=99s a well known next-protocol offset position. > > > Let's discuss in Prague. > > d) I think the moniker BRT is ill chosen. BIER does not do RPF and > using =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D here to describe tracking of G-membership of = P-BFRs is > overloading the term in a confusing way IMO. Basically in overlay we shou= ld > have a G to BFM mapping (and if necessary S to BFR-id derived from BIER > packets) and nothing else. There is no =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D lookup per p= acket or anything > like this which the moniker suggests (yes, one would say we do a =E2=80= =9CRPF=E2=80=9D per > =E2=80=9CPIM join=E2=80=9D but that somehow implies that such =E2=80=9CRP= F=E2=80=9D can =E2=80=9Cfail and drop=E2=80=9D > which it cannot). > > e) The whole =E2=80=9CRPF SPF lookup=E2=80=9D in 3.1 for (S,G) join= s will not work > in general case AFAIS. Observe that BIER may NOT be IGP signaled (but e.g= . > controller based) or run subdomain over a MT sub-setting links or constru= ct > a different tree than SPF so this =E2=80=9CPIM tunneled (S,G) overlay=E2= =80=9D seems to > violate the separation of layers completely as proposed assuming that it > can draw conclusions from IGP state (i.e. it considers the tunnel path > somehow =E2=80=9Cbackwards-computable=E2=80=9D by the overlay making it n= ot a tunnel but an > encapsulation only). > > This is bot trying to be a general solution that will work with every BIE= R > deployment. It intends to solve brown-deployment use caee in some pretty > typical architecture deployed today. > > If the whole (S,G) join architecture hinges on assumption that a =E2=80= =9Cfuture=E2=80=9D > BIER packet=E2=80=99s source can be =E2=80=9Cfigured out by computing SPF= =E2=80=9D then it is very > restricted and those assumptions have to be spelled out very clearly. In > general case an (S,G) join would have to be sent to all BERs that > participate in the P-G IMO make is de-facto ASM is my impression. > > > > Maybe I somehow miss the whole point completely given that the text is > jumping between tons of technologies and seems to not state assumptions > taken every time clearly =E2=80=A6 > > > > > Let's go over confusing parts tony so we can clarify and avoid those in > the text. > > Andrew > > --- tony > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --f403045c28fa8a219905549414de Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    ok, starts to make more sense if you spell all those assum= ptions very explicitly in the boilerplate. And give more examples ideally .= ..=C2=A0

    I'm on the floor the whole week, ping me 1:= 1 and we'll talk ...

    --- tony=C2=A0

    On Tue, Jul 18, = 2017 at 11:18 AM, Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) <andrew.= dolganow@nokia.com> wrote:
    Inline

    Andrew

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net> wrote:

    Read the draft on t= he plane trying to figure out what=E2=80=99s that about. Observations

    =C2=A0

    a)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 First, the draft seem= s to indicate that it=E2=80=99s draft-rosen (6037) and I assume it=E2=80=99= s talking about the P-G PIM which is generated by the PE and then first P i= s acting as BER. And it seems to concern mostly SSM. Just verifying =E2=80=A6


    The solution we are targeting runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And yes SSM is o= ur main target.=C2=A0

    b)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m suspiciou= s of the 256bits argument somehow. Is the idea that running a single-SI BIE= R is somehow massively simpler than multiple-SI-s? The packet WILL split @ = replication points & replication is necessary in any case (unless we have ingress rep for which BIER is not= needed) so I don=E2=80=99t see how single-SI makes much of a difference.


    There are two goals:
    - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due to a= scale.=C2=A0
    - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - evol= utionary intro of BIER.=C2=A0

    c)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We do not need to bur= n a protocol bit for PIM albeit yes, it would be tad more efficient. PIM mu= st be carried in either v4 or v6 frame which is its normal encoding and alr= eady fully supported by BIER encaps. Additionally, if PIM is stripped of v4/v6 encaps considera= tions would have to be made to all the PIM RPF & correct source/destina= tion addresses checks in the spec AFAIR. Yes, the BER needs to look into v4= /v6 packets to=C2=A0 see PIM being tunneled but if we try to accommodate every IP protocol with a bit, we=E2=80=99ll r= un out fast. Accomodating a protocol makes most sense when we talk heavy-vo= lume dataplane such as maybe VxLAN if we can save headers for processing sp= eed but PIM is a low volume control protocol and the check is trivial since it=E2=80=99s a well known next-protocol off= set position.


    Let's discuss in Prague.=C2=A0

    d)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think the moniker B= RT is ill chosen. BIER does not do RPF and using =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D here= to describe tracking of G-membership of P-BFRs is overloading the term in = a confusing way IMO. Basically in overlay we should have a G to BFM mapping (and if necessary S to BFR-id derived fr= om BIER packets) and nothing else. There is no =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D lookup= per packet or anything like this which the moniker suggests (yes, one woul= d say we do a =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D per =E2=80=9CPIM join=E2=80=9D but that= somehow implies that such =E2=80=9CRPF=E2=80=9D can =E2=80=9Cfail and drop=E2=80= =9D which it cannot).

    e)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The whole =E2=80=9CRP= F SPF lookup=E2=80=9D in 3.1 for (S,G) joins will not work in general case = AFAIS. Observe that BIER may NOT be IGP signaled (but e.g. controller based= ) or run subdomain over a MT sub-setting links or construct a different tree than SPF so this =E2=80=9CPIM tunneled= (S,G) overlay=E2=80=9D seems to violate the separation of layers completel= y as proposed assuming that it can draw conclusions from IGP state (i.e. it= considers the tunnel path somehow =E2=80=9Cbackwards-computable=E2=80=9D by the overlay making it not a tunnel but an encapsulation only). <= /p>

    This is bot trying to be a general solution that will work with= every BIER deployment. It intends to solve brown-deployment use caee in so= me pretty typical architecture deployed today.=C2=A0

    If the whole (S,G) join architecture hinges on assumption that a = =E2=80=9Cfuture=E2=80=9D BIER packet=E2=80=99s source can be =E2=80=9Cfigur= ed out by computing SPF=E2=80=9D then it is very restricted and those assum= ptions have to be spelled out very clearly. In general case an (S,G) join would have to be sent to a= ll BERs that participate in the P-G IMO make is de-facto ASM is my impressi= on.

    =C2=A0

    Maybe I somehow mis= s the whole point completely given that the text is jumping between tons of= technologies and seems to not state assumptions taken every time clearly = =E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0


     Let's go over confusing parts tony so we can clarify and avoid those in= the text.=C2=A0

    Andrew

    --- ton= y

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org<= /span>
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




    --
    =
    We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards c= ould produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet= , we know that is not true.
    = =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
    --f403045c28fa8a219905549414de-- From nobody Tue Jul 18 04:42:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F350E131E05; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:41:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150037811595.11312.14458027006019154400@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:41:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:41:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication of the IETF. Title : Performance Measurement (PM) with Marking Method in Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer Authors : Greg Mirsky Lianshu Zheng Mach Chen Giuseppe Fioccola Filename : draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2017-07-18 Abstract: This document describes a hybrid performance measurement method for multicast service over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 18 04:45:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C54A1317BE for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cRQNFLfC4U6c for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2975513178E for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d136so13763635qkg.3 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jl8eqifDyfnnaoJVl3qxPkh8Ef6p/aWEv/ced686gZ0=; b=qOo7UD3m7dyqyV8RN1IVV4IiPdEjplCZa/BZsyuApcgwkrKdIQ6+SiFsmBmi24LvTY Nv4+9Bor0OOdCHUGEZMW83dpxSz0wghBEwLC4HufZycTFu6E7TDHg4sLRHojAb7Mhfx6 oWpV+uQroogHJqr+2QSGfu9JER2K1enFOZ30uPLi/doRyyNH/dMdBNMTA25djwWVkUV4 +J7j/gsFJXoLw9lrEVt1Jo3UkgCGvOKE2cMz2l/RUQ+EsfSdnEVo0r0Xfhk/h0zaAai+ PgYJLQXQMDewfu2W0WbzpGbJxh//5FPF7woHZ3feS/jyoRHvAhz2IvY5LNzszzu0lLyZ owcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jl8eqifDyfnnaoJVl3qxPkh8Ef6p/aWEv/ced686gZ0=; b=LBzivqZOgimVv1OoNhd7ggeTl08JzFDyL1+AI5ya+vbjx2Cb/x4vI2trUpUz1PUogm 8vlPiqIypPl6E60yHmJURdJHJqX789ePt3fOYhKMpmqDB92O1TdXcHZCbi9DRX2lXGKe ZUKmCjg9iScK6QDVg6FFVJLsvLFw+v6LvcYJFPAGuHkPeipYwa8yfGk6vMS3hfYrqYH7 romM1jU6qvkiNlxVSYRE44yW0wGtcWpOI33fNkpnYyh7Ccz9yvOO4LtYftaFMSNW1qHf dt7+r8gJjyQkpF73MAssf7ialG5F11yjms7qUVD95+znzzDCsgdEPjrlSBds5xevvRTP l9TQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112qZ+quEJq4TEqshq6YnFEYCcLIn0un8ZbQzemIjG3uz6aQxMQl Th6LoLG3VEqDZXamtEIyzZKS9VpRuA== X-Received: by 10.55.82.139 with SMTP id g133mr1487514qkb.2.1500378331993; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.22.227 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 04:45:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <150037811615.11312.15266738739684440220.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150037811615.11312.15266738739684440220.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:45:31 +0200 Message-ID: To: bier@ietf.org Cc: Mach Chen , "Fioccola Giuseppe (giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it)" , Vero Zheng Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a8daa81dc400554960d1e" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:45:35 -0000 --001a114a8daa81dc400554960d1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, updated characterization of the Alternate Marking Method to Hybrid, resulting from our discussions at IPPM WG and with reference to RFC 7799. The document is stable and we would ask WG for consideration of LCing. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 1:41 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt To: Mach Chen , Gregory Mirsky , Lianshu Zheng , Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam Revision: 02 Title: Performance Measurement (PM) with Marking Method in Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer Document date: 2017-07-18 Group: bier Pages: 7 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm- oam-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm- oam-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam- 02 Abstract: This document describes a hybrid performance measurement method for multicast service over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --001a114a8daa81dc400554960d1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,
    updated characterization of the Alternate Ma= rking Method to Hybrid, resulting from our discussions at IPPM WG and with = reference to RFC 7799.
    The document is stable and we would ask WG= for consideration of LCing.

    Regards,
    Gr= eg

    ---------- Forwarded message --= --------
    From: <= internet-drafts@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 1:41 PM
    Subject: New Version Noti= fication for draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt
    To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Gregory Mirs= ky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;, Lianshu Zheng <vero.zheng@h= uawei.com>, Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>


    <= br> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02.txt
    has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
    IETF repository.

    Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam
    Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A002
    Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Performance Measurement (PM) with = Marking Method in Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer
    Document date:=C2=A0 2017-07-18
    Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bier
    Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7
    URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bier-pmm= m-oam-02.txt
    Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam/
    Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-02
    Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-0= 2
    Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-= 02

    Abstract:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes a hybrid performance measurement metho= d for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0multicast service over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) d= omain.




    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    The IETF Secretariat


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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andrew> The solution we are targeting runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And yes SSM is our main target. As I said in my message of July 3, it seems to me that what you are trying to do is to use BIER to create an NBMA network attaching a set of PIM routers. Unless i'm missing the point, the makes your proposal independent of the application. What you need to do is make sure all the PIM link procedures will run correctly on the NBMA network. I don't see why ASM is a particular problem. Andrew> There are two goals: Andrew> - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due to a scale. The BIER domain would certainly be easier to bound in size if it only includes the set of PIM neighbors on the NBMA "link". But I don't think anything in your proposal is incompatible with the use of multiple Sets. Andrew> - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - evolutionary intro of BIER. There are other possible approaches as well. If an application supports "segmented tunnels" (such as NG-MVPN does), it's not too hard to have a "BIER segment" across the core while using other multicast protocols (or ingress replication) in the access areas. Another approach is to use NG-MVPN Global Table Multicast (RFC 7716) across the core (instead of PIM), in which case you can use BIER as the "tunnel type' across the core, without requiring core nodes to send PIM messages to each other. Note that the default MDTs and data MDTs of "rosen mvpn" are global table multicasts, and GTM is easily used to connect multiple PIM areas together. So this would be a feasible technique for doing "rosen mvpn" at the edges with BIER in the core. Which technique is better under which circumstances could be explored. Tony> We do not need to burn a protocol bit for PIM I agree with Tony that there doesn't seem to be any need for the Proto field to be "PIM" rather than "IPv4" or "IPv6". (At least, no architectural reason. In the implementation, perhaps this would be the trigger that caused the hardware to associate the packet with an "incoming interface" of "BIER" ;-) If so, we'd have to explore that a bit deeper.) Tony> The whole “RPF SPF lookup” in 3.1 for (S,G) joins will not work in general Well, this is the usual problem of how do you find the "upstream multicast hop" when the multicast routing neighbors are not also unicast routing neighbors. Generally the solution to this problem will depend upon the unicast routing environment. --------------686300F01902D80A02B67B63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Andrew>  The solution we are targeting runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And yes SSM is our main target.

    As I said in my message of July 3, it seems to me that what you are trying to do is to use BIER to create an NBMA network attaching a set of PIM routers.  Unless i'm missing the point, the makes your proposal independent of the application.  What you need to do is make sure all the PIM link procedures will run correctly on the NBMA network.  I don't see why ASM is a particular problem.

    Andrew> There are two goals:
    Andrew> - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due to a scale.

    The BIER domain would certainly be easier to bound in size if it only includes the set of PIM neighbors on the NBMA "link".  But I don't think anything in your proposal is incompatible with the use of multiple Sets.

    Andrew> - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - evolutionary intro of BIER.

    There are other possible approaches as well.

    If an application supports "segmented tunnels" (such as NG-MVPN does), it's not too hard to have a "BIER segment" across the core while using other multicast protocols (or ingress replication) in the access areas.

    Another approach is to use NG-MVPN Global Table Multicast (RFC 7716) across the core (instead of PIM), in which case you can use BIER as the "tunnel type' across the core, without requiring core nodes to send PIM messages to each other.  Note that the default MDTs and data MDTs of "rosen mvpn" are global table multicasts, and GTM is easily used to connect multiple PIM areas together.  So this would be a feasible technique for doing "rosen mvpn" at the edges with BIER in the core.  Which technique is better under which circumstances could be explored.

    Tony> We do not need to burn a protocol bit for PIM

    I agree with Tony that there doesn't seem to be any need for the Proto field to be "PIM" rather than "IPv4" or "IPv6".   (At least, no architectural reason.  In the implementation, perhaps this would be the trigger that caused the hardware to associate the packet with an "incoming interface" of "BIER" ;-)  If so, we'd have to explore that a bit deeper.)

    Tony> The whole “RPF SPF lookup” in 3.1 for (S,G) joins will not work in general

    Well, this is the usual problem of how do you find the "upstream multicast hop" when the multicast routing neighbors are not also unicast routing neighbors.  Generally the solution to this problem will depend upon the unicast routing environment.


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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR05MB2191 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:21:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2ECF5B6F2549ADF75B74175B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/18/2017 4:34 PM, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > We are not trying to create a PIM adjacency via BIER. It is more like > mLDP tunneling concept. By "mLDP tunneling concept" are you referring to mLDP "in-band signaling" (RFC6826)? If you are sending PIM Join/Prune messages from one router to another, then the routers are PIM adjacencies, and I don't see how you can avoid treating them as such. This does raise a lot of issues -- what if the Join has Join attributes in it, how can you tell what Join attributes are supported unless you have Hellos, etc. Also, by carrying PIM Join/Prune messages, you retain the issues that come from periodic retransmission of the Join/Prune messages. mLDP in-band signaling doesn't carry PIM Join/Prune messages, it just carries the (S,G) information. It does have some ASM issues because there is no "prune this source off the shared tree" operation. Or to put it another way: mLDP in-band signaling does not tunnel PIM over mLDP, it splices several PIM trees together with a P2MP LSP. If you want your scheme to function like mLDP in-band signaling, you need to say a lot more about how the BIER-PIM Join/Prune messages are constructed and how they are processed. That would be a less general solution than using BIER to emulate a link. It would also need to be compared to other forms of overlay signaling such as MVPN-based GTM. > love to have a face to face chat before the session. Unfortunately I am not in Prague. --------------2ECF5B6F2549ADF75B74175B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/18/2017 4:34 PM, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote:
    We are not trying to create a PIM adjacency via BIER. It is more like mLDP tunneling concept.

    By "mLDP tunneling concept" are you referring to mLDP "in-band signaling" (RFC6826)?

    If you are sending PIM Join/Prune messages from one router to another, then the routers are PIM adjacencies, and I don't see how you can avoid treating them as such.
    This does raise a lot of issues -- what if the Join has Join attributes in it, how can you tell what Join attributes are supported unless you have Hellos, etc.  Also, by carrying PIM Join/Prune messages, you retain the issues that come from periodic retransmission of the Join/Prune messages.

    mLDP in-band signaling doesn't carry PIM Join/Prune messages, it just carries the (S,G) information.  It does have some ASM issues because there is no "prune this source off the shared tree" operation.  Or to put it another way: mLDP in-band signaling does not tunnel PIM over mLDP, it splices several PIM trees together with a P2MP LSP.   If you want your scheme to function like mLDP in-band signaling, you need to say a lot more about how the BIER-PIM Join/Prune messages are constructed and how they are processed.

    That would be a less general solution than using BIER  to emulate a link.  It would also need to be compared to other forms of overlay signaling such as MVPN-based GTM.

    love to have a face to face chat before the session.

    Unfortunately I am not in Prague.
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<74699a15-6c07-fea1-9a0f-dd1b069f9d9e@juniper.net> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:07:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: Eric C Rosen Cc: "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" , Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045dbcec560d190554ac2941" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 14:08:12 -0000 --f403045dbcec560d190554ac2941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > Andrew> The solution we are targeting runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And > yes SSM is our main target. > > As I said in my message of July 3, it seems to me that what you are tryin= g > to do is to use BIER to create an NBMA network attaching a set of PIM > routers. Unless i'm missing the point, the makes your proposal independe= nt > of the application. What you need to do is make sure all the PIM link > procedures will run correctly on the NBMA network. I don't see why ASM i= s > a particular problem. > yes, that's why the heavy focus on the SSM in the document threw me a bit as well. > Andrew> There are two goals: > Andrew> - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due > to a scale. > > The BIER domain would certainly be easier to bound in size if it only > includes the set of PIM neighbors on the NBMA "link". But I don't think > anything in your proposal is incompatible with the use of multiple Sets. > neither do I and it still eludes me why just having 256 bits simplifies things much or should be enshrined in this document. We may have a small section saying "things are _even_ easier if you do 256 bits and don't have to replicate" but now it sounds like the solution limits itself to 256 bits. > Andrew> - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - > evolutionary intro of BIER. > > There are other possible approaches as well. > If an application supports "segmented tunnels" (such as NG-MVPN does), > it's not too hard to have a "BIER segment" across the core while using > other multicast protocols (or ingress replication) in the access areas. > > Another approach is to use NG-MVPN Global Table Multicast (RFC 7716) > across the core (instead of PIM), in which case you can use BIER as the > "tunnel type' across the core, without requiring core nodes to send PIM > messages to each other. Note that the default MDTs and data MDTs of "ros= en > mvpn" are global table multicasts, and GTM is easily used to connect > multiple PIM areas together. So this would be a feasible technique for > doing "rosen mvpn" at the edges with BIER in the core. Which technique i= s > better under which circumstances could be explored. > 7716 is a very clean solution here to delineate the boundaries without necessity of PIM signalling as first impression. Is the idea though to run on PE both sides of BGP signalling or on the first P-router (which would necessitate BGP on the P router if I'm not mistaken) ? I think it's P routers since otherwise we need BFR-id per PE which defeats purpose of this draft. Then how do we stitch the two BGP's together? core gets another AS and we run EBGP PE-P and we stitch via inter-AS I-PMSI or something like this? > Tony> We do not need to burn a protocol bit for PIM > > I agree with Tony that there doesn't seem to be any need for the Proto > field to be "PIM" rather than "IPv4" or "IPv6". (At least, no > architectural reason. In the implementation, perhaps this would be the > trigger that caused the hardware to associate the packet with an "incomin= g > interface" of "BIER" ;-) If so, we'd have to explore that a bit deeper.) > I didn't think it through fully but there are so many PIM procedures that having a JOIN without the IP encaps is likely to cause problems anyway (by gut feeling). > > Tony> The whole =E2=80=9CRPF SPF lookup=E2=80=9D in 3.1 for (S,G) joins w= ill not work in > general > > Well, this is the usual problem of how do you find the "upstream multicas= t > hop" when the multicast routing neighbors are not also unicast routing > neighbors. Generally the solution to this problem will depend upon the > unicast routing environment. > yes, got it. Thinking through 7716 it looks tempting to me given it thought through all the SFS/UMH scenarios. --f403045dbcec560d190554ac2941 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:
    =20 =20 =20

    Andrew>=C2=A0 The solution we are targeti= ng runs Rosen MVPN in the core. And yes SSM is our main target.

    As I said in my message of July 3, it seems to me that what you are trying to do is to use BIER to create an NBMA network attaching a set of PIM routers.=C2=A0 Unless i'm missing the poin= t, the makes your proposal independent of the application.=C2=A0 What you ne= ed to do is make sure all the PIM link procedures will run correctly on the NBMA network.=C2=A0 I don't see why ASM is a particular pr= oblem.

    yes, that's why the heavy focus o= n the SSM in the document threw me a bit as well.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    Andrew> There are two goals:
    Andrew> - Stay with a single SI to avoid packet duplication in a core due to a scale.

    The BIER domain would certainly be easier to bound in size if it only includes the set of PIM neighbors on the NBMA "link".= =C2=A0 But I don't think anything in your proposal is incompatible with the us= e of multiple Sets.

    neither do I and it = still eludes me why just having 256 bits simplifies things much or should b= e enshrined in this document. We may have a small section saying "thin= gs are _even_ easier if you do 256 bits and don't have to replicate&quo= t; but now it sounds like the solution limits itself to 256 bits.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    Andrew> - Intro BIER in the core without a need to touch access domains - evolutionary intro of BIER.=

    There are other possible approaches as well.

    If an application supports "segmented tunnels" (such as NG-MV= PN does), it's not too hard to have a "BIER segment" across = the core while using other multicast protocols (or ingress replication) in the access areas.

    Another approach is to use NG-MVPN Global Table Multicast (RFC 7716) across the core (instead of PIM), in which case you can use BIER as the "tunnel type' across the core, without requiring core node= s to send PIM messages to each other.=C2=A0 Note that the default MDTs and data MDTs of "rosen mvpn" are global table multicasts, and GT= M is easily used to connect multiple PIM areas together.=C2=A0 So this would be a feasible technique for doing "rosen mvpn" at the edges w= ith BIER in the core.=C2=A0 Which technique is better under which circumstances could be explored.

    <= div>7716 is a very clean solution here to delineate the boundaries without = necessity of PIM signalling as first impression. Is the idea though to run = on PE both sides of BGP signalling or on the first P-router (which would ne= cessitate BGP on the P router if I'm not mistaken) ? I think it's P= routers since otherwise we need BFR-id per PE which defeats purpose of thi= s draft. Then how do we stitch the two BGP's together? core gets anothe= r AS and we run EBGP PE-P and we stitch via inter-AS I-PMSI or something li= ke this?=C2=A0


    Tony> We do not need to burn a protocol bit for PIM

    I agree with Tony that there doesn't seem to be any need for the Proto field to be "PIM" rather than "IPv4" or "= ;IPv6".=C2=A0=C2=A0 (At least, no architectural reason.=C2=A0 In the implementation, perhaps this woul= d be the trigger that caused the hardware to associate the packet with an "incoming interface" of "BIER" ;-)=C2=A0 If so, = we'd have to explore that a bit deeper.)

    I didn= 9;t think it through fully but there are so many PIM procedures that having= a JOIN without the IP encaps is likely to cause problems anyway (by gut fe= eling).=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    Tony> The whole =E2=80=9CRPF SPF lookup=E2= =80=9D in 3.1 for (S,G) joins will not work in general

    Well, this is the usual problem of how do you find the "upstream multicast hop" when the multicast routing neighbors are not also unicast routing neighbors.=C2=A0 Generally the solution to this problem will depend upon the unicast routing environment.

    yes, got it. Thinking through 7716 it looks tempting t= o me given it thought through all the SFS/UMH scenarios. =C2=A0
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Jul 2017 10:41:42.8652 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR05MB3548 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:41:47 -0000 Some follow up comments below. > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 11:22 PM > To: BIER WG > Subject: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling >=20 > It seems to me that what this draft really proposes is a way to use BIER > to create an NBMA (Non-Broadcast Multiple Access) data link on which PIM > can be run. >=20 > If one looks at it that way, there is no interaction with the MVPN layer > at all. To MVPN, it looks like the P-tunnels or default-MDTs/data-MDTs > are created by PIM. The fact that the network core is acting like an > NBMA data link is invisible to the application layer. Thus I don't > really understand why sections 5 ("ASM") and 6 ("MVPN") are needed. Completely agree. It should be completely orthogonal to MVPN. MVPN was initially mentioned with the context that a Rosen MVPN network cou= ld have many PEs (more than the BitStringLength). To avoid sending multiple= copies via BIER, the MVPN PEs would not BFIR/BFERs; rather, only a smaller= core would be running BIER, and when the PIM signaling for the provider tu= nnel reaches that core, the procedures in this draft kicks in. As far as BI= ER is concerned, this is for pure PIM. No MVPN involvement. Of course similar procedures could be used for Rosem-MVPN where the MVPN pr= ovider network and BIER domain are the same. I think that's what section 6 = is trying to say, but in that case, there is no PIM provider tunnel at all.= The signaling is for C-multicast (so there is a need for something similar= to Route Distinguisher), not for provider tunnel. >=20 > There are a few questions that might deserve some more attention: >=20 > - Part of the proposal is that the Join/Prune messages are unicast, > using a BIER header with a single bit set in the BitString. That will > certainly work, but it's an unusual way to create a unicast tunnel. I > realize it does have the advantage of already including the BFIR-id in > the encapsulation header. >=20 > - Since the BIER edge routers are PIM neighbors of each other, it seems > like they should be multicasting PIM Hellos to each other. (The draft > doesn't really say how the BIER edge routers running PIM are expected to > identify each other; once they do identify each other, multicasting > Hellos using BIER should be simple.) I wonder if PIM hellos are needed among BFIRs/BFERs. I remember one flavor = of Rosem-MVPN (in the MS-PMSI version?) proposed to remove the need for Hel= lo. >=20 > - The lack of Join Suppression is worth at least mentioning. Right, it should mention that Join Suppression is naturally turned off beca= use of the unicast, and it's necessary for leaf tracking. >=20 > - There are various PIM procedures that may or may not need to be > modified to deal with an NBMA data link: DR election, Assert, etc. If > the usual PIM procedures need to be modified, that has to be discussed. > (Even if they don't need to be modified, this should be discussed.) >=20 > - When a data packet is received, is it necessary to do an RPF check > against the BFIR-id? If so, then there is an issue of just what happens > when a BFER (for a given data flow) changes from one tree to another > (e.g., changes from the shared tree to the source tree); is the RPF > check altered when a new Join is sent, or when the first data packet of > the flow is received from the newly chosen tree, or somewhere in between? For SSM it may be needed to prevent transient loss/duplicate when topology = changes (e.g. switching from one BFIR to another). For ASM the draft says it also works but that may need further discussion (= besides RPF check). Jeffrey >=20 > - Will this work with BIDIR-PIM, or is that out of scope? >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Jul 20 04:20:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815C0131C04 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 04:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by 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(version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1282.4; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:20:47 +0000 Received: from DM5PR05MB3145.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.219.15]) by DM5PR05MB3145.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.219.15]) with mapi id 15.01.1282.011; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:20:47 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" , Antoni Przygienda CC: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling Thread-Index: AQHS/XAwmu5yjNkcLUehC6Fnhg/YZKJZUqQ7gAM+OpA= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:20:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2F5AA4AB-E5E7-453E-963C-DF9679DDE2D8@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nokia.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nokia.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 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spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Jul 2017 14:04:21.5766 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB2717 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:04:28 -0000 Inline (HB>) -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zh= ang Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 6:42 AM To: Eric Rosen ; BIER WG Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling Some follow up comments below. > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 11:22 PM > To: BIER WG > Subject: [Bier] Comments on draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling >=20 > It seems to me that what this draft really proposes is a way to use=20 > BIER to create an NBMA (Non-Broadcast Multiple Access) data link on=20 > which PIM can be run. >=20 > If one looks at it that way, there is no interaction with the MVPN=20 > layer at all. To MVPN, it looks like the P-tunnels or=20 > default-MDTs/data-MDTs are created by PIM. The fact that the network=20 > core is acting like an NBMA data link is invisible to the application=20 > layer. Thus I don't really understand why sections 5 ("ASM") and 6 ("MVP= N") are needed. Completely agree. It should be completely orthogonal to MVPN. HB> Yes MVPN was initially mentioned with the context that a Rosen MVPN network cou= ld have many PEs (more than the BitStringLength). To avoid sending multiple= copies via BIER, the MVPN PEs would not BFIR/BFERs; rather, only a smaller= core would be running BIER, and when the PIM signaling for the provider tu= nnel reaches that core, the procedures in this draft kicks in. As far as BI= ER is concerned, this is for pure PIM. No MVPN involvement. HB> Yes Of course similar procedures could be used for Rosem-MVPN where the MVPN pr= ovider network and BIER domain are the same. I think that's what section 6 = is trying to say, but in that case, there is no PIM provider tunnel at all.= The signaling is for C-multicast (so there is a need for something similar= to Route Distinguisher), not for provider tunnel. >=20 > There are a few questions that might deserve some more attention: >=20 > - Part of the proposal is that the Join/Prune messages are unicast,=20 > using a BIER header with a single bit set in the BitString. That=20 > will certainly work, but it's an unusual way to create a unicast=20 > tunnel. I realize it does have the advantage of already including the=20 > BFIR-id in the encapsulation header. >=20 > - Since the BIER edge routers are PIM neighbors of each other, it=20 > seems like they should be multicasting PIM Hellos to each other. (The=20 > draft doesn't really say how the BIER edge routers running PIM are=20 > expected to identify each other; once they do identify each other,=20 > multicasting Hellos using BIER should be simple.) I wonder if PIM hellos are needed among BFIRs/BFERs. I remember one flavor = of Rosem-MVPN (in the MS-PMSI version?) proposed to remove the need for Hel= lo. HB> The ideal here a simple mech to signal S,G through a BIER core, as ment= ioned before . We could of introduce a TLV in BIER header but we did not wa= nt to muck around with BIER header. So we decided to go with tunneling PIM = joins/prunes through BIER. I will talk more about this face to face. >=20 > - The lack of Join Suppression is worth at least mentioning. Right, it should mention that Join Suppression is naturally turned off beca= use of the unicast, and it's necessary for leaf tracking. HB> Yes >=20 > - There are various PIM procedures that may or may not need to be=20 > modified to deal with an NBMA data link: DR election, Assert, etc. If=20 > the usual PIM procedures need to be modified, that has to be discussed. > (Even if they don't need to be modified, this should be discussed.) >=20 > - When a data packet is received, is it necessary to do an RPF check=20 > against the BFIR-id? If so, then there is an issue of just what=20 > happens when a BFER (for a given data flow) changes from one tree to=20 > another (e.g., changes from the shared tree to the source tree); is=20 > the RPF check altered when a new Join is sent, or when the first data=20 > packet of the flow is received from the newly chosen tree, or somewhere i= n between? For SSM it may be needed to prevent transient loss/duplicate when topology = changes (e.g. switching from one BFIR to another). For ASM the draft says it also works but that may need further discussion (= besides RPF check). Jeffrey >=20 > - Will this work with BIDIR-PIM, or is that out of scope? >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Jul 20 09:49:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46832131A76 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Homenet, and multicast X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:49:27 -0000 SGVyZeKAmXMgdGhlIG1haW4gY2h1bmsgb2YgaG9tZW5ldCBtdWx0aWNhc3QgdGV4dCBmcm9tIFJG QzczNjguICANCg0KVGhlcmUgYXJlIG90aGVyIHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgdG8gbXVsdGljYXN0IHRocm91 Z2ggdG9waWNzIHN1Y2ggYXMgc2VydmljZSBkaXNjb3ZlcnksIGFuZCBzZWN1cml0eSAmIHJlYWxt IGJvcmRlcnMuDQoNCkF0IHRoZSBjaGFpcnPigJkgZGlyZWN0aW9uLCBubyBzcGVjaWZpYyBwcm90 b2NvbCB3YXMgbmFtZWQsIGp1c3QgYXMgbm8gdW5pY2FzdCBwcm90b2NvbCB3YXMgbmFtZWQuDQoN Ck9uY2UgdGhlIG5ldyBob21lbmV0IFdHIGNoYWlycyBhcmUgYXBwb2ludGVkLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBi ZSB0aW1lbHkgdG8gcmFpc2UgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIG9mIGJpZXIsIGJhYmVsIGFuZCBtdWx0aWNh c3Qgd2l0aCB0aGVtLg0KDQrigJQNCg0KMy41LjMuICBNdWx0aWNhc3QgU3VwcG9ydA0KDQogICBJ dCBpcyBkZXNpcmFibGUgdGhhdCwgc3ViamVjdCB0byB0aGUgY2FwYWNpdGllcyBvZiBkZXZpY2Vz IG9uIGNlcnRhaW4NCiAgIG1lZGlhIHR5cGVzLCBtdWx0aWNhc3Qgcm91dGluZyBpcyBzdXBwb3J0 ZWQgYWNyb3NzIHRoZSBob21lbmV0LA0KICAgaW5jbHVkaW5nIHNvdXJjZS1zcGVjaWZpYyBtdWx0 aWNhc3QgKFNTTSkgW1JGQzQ2MDddLg0KDQogICBbUkZDNDI5MV0gcmVxdWlyZXMgdGhhdCBhbnkg Ym91bmRhcnkgb2Ygc2NvcGUgNCBvciBoaWdoZXIgKGkuZS4sDQogICBhZG1pbi1sb2NhbCBvciBo aWdoZXIpIGJlIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlbHkgY29uZmlndXJlZC4gIFRodXMsIHRoZQ0KICAgYm91 bmRhcnkgYXQgdGhlIGhvbWVuZXQtSVNQIGJvcmRlciBtdXN0IGJlIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlbHkN CiAgIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQsIHRob3VnaCB0aGF0IG1heSBiZSB0cmlnZ2VyZWQgYnkgYW4gYWRtaW5p c3RyYXRpdmUNCiAgIGZ1bmN0aW9uIHN1Y2ggYXMgREhDUCBQRC4gIE90aGVyIG11bHRpY2FzdCBm b3J3YXJkaW5nIHBvbGljeSBib3JkZXJzDQogICBtYXkgYWxzbyBleGlzdCB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGhv bWVuZXQsIGUuZy4sIHRvL2Zyb20gYSBndWVzdCBzdWJuZXQsDQogICB3aGlsc3QgdGhlIHVzZSBv ZiBjZXJ0YWluIGxpbmsgbWVkaWEgdHlwZXMgbWF5IGFsc28gYWZmZWN0IHdoZXJlDQogICBzcGVj aWZpYyBtdWx0aWNhc3QgdHJhZmZpYyBpcyBmb3J3YXJkZWQgb3Igcm91dGVkLg0KDQogICBUaGVy ZSBtYXkgYmUgZGlmZmVyZW50IGRyaXZlcnMgZm9yIG11bHRpY2FzdCB0byBiZSBzdXBwb3J0ZWQg YWNyb3NzDQogICB0aGUgaG9tZW5ldCAtLSBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwNCg0KICAgbyAgZm9yIGhvbWVu ZXQtd2lkZSBzZXJ2aWNlIGRpc2NvdmVyeSwgc2hvdWxkIGEgbXVsdGljYXN0IHNlcnZpY2UNCiAg ICAgIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBwcm90b2NvbCBvZiBzY29wZSBncmVhdGVyIHRoYW4gbGluay1sb2NhbCBi ZSBkZWZpbmVkDQoNCiAgIG8gIGZvciBtdWx0aWNhc3QtYmFzZWQgc3RyZWFtaW5nIG9yIGZpbGUt c2hhcmluZyBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMNCg0KICAgV2hlcmUgbXVsdGljYXN0IGlzIHJvdXRlZCBhY3Jv c3MgYSBob21lbmV0LCBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBtdWx0aWNhc3QNCiAgIHJvdXRpbmcgcHJvdG9j b2wgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQsIG9uZSB0aGF0IGFzIHBlciB0aGUgdW5pY2FzdCByb3V0aW5nDQogICBw cm90b2NvbCBzaG91bGQgYmUgc2VsZi1jb25maWd1cmluZy4gIEFzIGhpbnRlZCBhYm92ZSwgaXQg bXVzdCBiZQ0KICAgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gc2NvcGUgb3IgZmlsdGVyIG11bHRpY2FzdCB0cmFmZmlj IHRvIGF2b2lkIGl0IGJlaW5nDQogICBmbG9vZGVkIHRvIG5ldHdvcmsgbWVkaWEgd2hlcmUgZGV2 aWNlcyBjYW5ub3QgcmVhc29uYWJseSBzdXBwb3J0IGl0Lg0KDQogICBBIGhvbWVuZXQgbWF5IG5v dCBvbmx5IHVzZSBtdWx0aWNhc3QgaW50ZXJuYWxseSwgaXQgbWF5IGFsc28gYmUgYQ0KICAgY29u c3VtZXIgb3IgcHJvdmlkZXIgb2YgZXh0ZXJuYWwgbXVsdGljYXN0IHRyYWZmaWMsIHdoZXJlIHRo ZQ0KICAgaG9tZW5ldCdzIElTUCBzdXBwb3J0cyBzdWNoIG11bHRpY2FzdCBvcGVyYXRpb24uICBU aGlzIG1heSBiZQ0KICAgdmFsdWFibGUsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlLCB3aGVyZSBsaXZlIHZpZGVvIGFw cGxpY2F0aW9ucyBhcmUgYmVpbmcNCiAgIHNvdXJjZWQgdG8vZnJvbSB0aGUgaG9tZW5ldC4NCg0K ICAgVGhlIG11bHRpY2FzdCBlbnZpcm9ubWVudCBzaG91bGQgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgYWJpbGl0eSBm b3IgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zDQogICB0byBwaWNrIGEgdW5pcXVlIG11bHRpY2FzdCBncm91cCB0byB1 c2UuDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jul 20 09:53:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09CD131461 for ; 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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.183.1 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:52:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Alia Atlas Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:52:55 -0400 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d45fc8adc020554c29441" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] NVO3 multicast draft X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:53:08 -0000 --94eb2c0d45fc8adc020554c29441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-nvo3-mcast-framework/ This is the draft that is past WGLC. There will, of course, be an IETF Last Call once I finish reviewing it. You may find it interesting and I would certainly value your reviews. Regards, Alia --94eb2c0d45fc8adc020554c29441 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-nvo3-mcast-= framework/

    This is the draft that is past= WGLC.=C2=A0 There will, of course, be an IETF Last Call once I finish revi= ewing it.

    You may find it interesting and I would = certainly value your reviews.

    Regards,
    A= lia
    --94eb2c0d45fc8adc020554c29441-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 23:27:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41724126DFF; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MxJShdAT6dR; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00358126C3D; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22D958C4B7; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:27:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id A8486B0C64C; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:27:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:27:41 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , isis-wg@ietf.org, hannes@gredler.at, chopps@chopps.org Message-ID: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 06:27:49 -0000 Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully benign textual comments: We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across areas/levels or not. Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the whole ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to that effect would be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS areas/levels, so they span the whole ISIS domain). Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some sentence about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER sub-domains ?). Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like sub-domain, level, area, topology so that reader that don't know the terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by heart can easily know which protocol is referred to. I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes reading easier if the doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at least have them in the Terminology section. And probably in terminology say "domain -> in the context of this document the BIER domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain" (which i hope is the correct statement, see above). Cheers Toerless From nobody Fri Jul 21 02:46:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD528127869 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 02:46:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id piM6Pay6hmP1 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 02:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0H9H7ZJgTSGG; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 05:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C77E0131B69; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id w191so7027865wmw.1; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MocJks5CHN/PHhTN1BBkAcDu+uIsSLz3C4mLl0hin4I=; b=TYya9th0pOCxKuuRNwJ6fK+Nbh/Lx2g8qVxNhWtTz0mIZjcsbBVafbLuzjrywHYmQD 1HJaNVaqBXw85LIVUlqhPI2sx3o9ZuUCgfU9DRYv3Jhiuj+dWNLGt60SGzJnkZkYRSmD ebLIGoeSQRtiSqsPIQagSaS50fl5o14dMMPPGBIShB1usaX5kz8u/eyfD8ifAn/97601 oRS8D6EBqhUfs/p1hztGyHMTL2T2dbmD+XEjoR0Od9YznC/Cxq0wXaALqbT17C/cKYER /ua+uXuT7ta5A73tb02JqVljsnG89RIa7oBNBJ0E3zv4CrJ+ljyn0JHBaSnhpSiIDyyk lFRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MocJks5CHN/PHhTN1BBkAcDu+uIsSLz3C4mLl0hin4I=; b=eJUgQIQA09d4x388sq0jl6riDWnpYaPlEGvUW+kVKEMacdGH/36ZUTZJWEu2cge5Nq 1pqqDhVHTDGl7UzbHJxmYzBJ1wiIT5dE9kXtY4+pxwRSJDH7NNWDKmIIsPVNp7l/bhQ3 fOAHtQ4meZ0KIQsf7iDoskl5EkUH/4HwOzKbHi1RcWOf+aky/CqurH5Ybbg/QYtzLIdj d8mLvcs2Tmlq2lXPhhO6YrY4b6liOgJHnnQraRrK3+FML3oYJ7RYDgihXWyiC5vhD1Bc XFoeByABN5h2kW+2Ir90pH45EBLL5AdegGVZa99xzcdpnzr9l6HVedv0S9QiSmsEQ/M+ fDoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113MpTgzvoc79mOZVAhGFb1sbmSNGrvrMJ/pfFSkt14ACG363DVk dvFTzivkRzMKcn+vOCPvrSGNgx6DKg== X-Received: by 10.80.143.101 with SMTP id 92mr5742363edy.68.1500639483360; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 05:18:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.138.99 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 05:17:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:17:23 +0200 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Greg Shepherd , "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1959fc577d6c0554d2db8e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:18:07 -0000 --94eb2c1959fc577d6c0554d2db8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terminology is a bit nits IMO since the doc is reading clear enough for someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it or Les can comment whether we should tighten glossary ... With the scope I agree, that got lost and the doc should be possibly rev'ed before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was the agreement but something mentioning that this could change in the future is good so we are forced to give it some thought how that would transition ... Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a clean document really. The BIER sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of flooding scope. Normal L1-L2 redistribution can be used to get the info to all needed places AFAIS. So maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for Les to chime in. OSPF I would have to look @ scopes again & think whether we need to write something or maybe Peter can comment ... --- tony On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully benign textual comments: > > We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: > are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across > areas/levels or not. > > Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the whole > ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to that effect > would > be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS > areas/levels, so they span the whole ISIS domain). > > Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some sentence > about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER sub-domains > ?). > > Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like > sub-domain, level, area, topology so that reader > that don't know the terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by heart can > easily know which protocol is referred to. > > I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes > reading easier if the > doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at least have them in the > Terminology section. And probably in terminology say "domain -> in the > context > of this document the BIER domain which is also the same as the ISIS domai= n" > (which i hope is the correct statement, see above). > > Cheers > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --94eb2c1959fc577d6c0554d2db8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Terminology is a bit nits =C2=A0IMO since the doc is readi= ng clear enough for someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it or Le= s can comment whether we should tighten glossary ...=C2=A0

    With the scope I agree, that got lost and the doc should be possibly rev= 'ed before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was the agreement but some= thing mentioning that this could change in the future is good so we are for= ced to give it some thought how that would transition ...=C2=A0
    <= br>
    Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a clean document rea= lly. The =C2=A0BIER sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of flooding= scope. Normal L1-L2 redistribution can be used to get the info to all need= ed places AFAIS. So maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for Les to ch= ime in.=C2=A0

    OSPF I would have to look @ scopes a= gain & think whether we need to write something or maybe Peter can comm= ent ...=C2=A0

    --- tony=C2=A0

    <= div>

    On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert <<= a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
    Sorry, past the two weeks, but= hopefully=C2=A0 benign textual comments:

    We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across
    areas/levels or not.

    Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the whole ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to that effect w= ould
    be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS areas/level= s,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0so they span the whole ISIS domain).

    Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some sentence about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER sub-domains ?)= .

    Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-domain, level, area, topology so that re= ader that don't know the terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by he= art can easily know which protocol is referred to.

    I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes readin= g easier if the
    doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at least ha= ve them in the
    Terminology section. And probably in terminology say "domain -> in = the context
    of this document the BIER domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain&= quot;
    (which i hope is the correct statement, see above).

    Cheers
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



    --
    We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou= ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, = we know that is not true.=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky<= br>
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Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:54:22 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-011.cisco.com (173.36.7.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:54:21 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:54:21 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] FW: I-D was expired Thread-Index: AQHTAiB4JL9f9nkCxkmkbEkMZYy7qA== Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:54:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.22.0.170515 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.238.82] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <36EEB9197D59364AB2B9DCE5FE5812D1@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D was expired X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:54:25 -0000 SEkgVG9ueSwNCg0KSSB3aWxsIHN1Ym1pdCBpdCBpbiBmZXcgbWludXRlcy4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0K TmFnZW5kcmENCg0KT24gNy8yMS8xNywgODoyMiBBTSwgIkJJRVIgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEFudG9u aSBQcnp5Z2llbmRhIiA8Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBwcnpAanVu aXBlci5uZXQ+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgQ2FuIHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHJlc3VibWl0IHBscywgd2Ug bmVlZCB0aGF0IHN0dWZmLiBJIGhhZCBhdCBsZWFzdCAyIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIHRoaXMgSUVURiBh Ym91dCBCSUVSIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGFuZCBPQU0gYW5kIHNvIG9uIOKApiANCiAgICANCiAgICAt LS0gdG9ueQ0KICAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICA8aWV0Zi1zZWNyZXRhcmlhdC1yZXBseUBpZXRmLm9y Zz4gc3Bha2U6DQogICAgDQogICAgICAgIDxkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWJpZXItcGluZy0wMS50eHQ+IHdh cyBqdXN0IGV4cGlyZWQuDQogICAgICAgIFRoaXMgZHJhZnQgaXMgaW4gdGhlIHN0YXRlICJJLUQg RXhpc3RzIiBpbiB0aGUgRGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuDQogICAgICAgIA0KICAgICAgICANCiAgICAgICAg VGhhbmtzLA0KICAgICAgICBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0Lg0KICAgICAgICANCiAgICAgICAgDQog ICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N CiAgICBCSUVSIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIEJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JpZXINCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Fri Jul 21 06:01:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE3D131BFA; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 06:01:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150064207293.11161.12108295312919392576@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 06:01:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ping-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:01:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Ping and Trace Authors : Nagendra Kumar Carlos Pignataro Nobo Akiya Lianshu Zheng Mach Chen Greg Mirsky Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ping-02.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2017-07-21 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on BIER data plane. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ping/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ping-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ping-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ping-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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01:03:53 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Tony Przygienda , Toerless Eckert CC: "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 Thread-Index: AQHTAep+OLJgflK73kG/QMbI+G29DqJehpmAgADQ+xA= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 06:03:53 +0000 Message-ID: <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.42.237] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cdXCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication 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bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81536129AD1; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 06:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRJRE9Mq0B_G; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 06:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC445131A78; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 06:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A25758C4B0; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 15:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 53108B0C66E; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 15:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 15:34:19 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Tony Przygienda , "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Message-ID: <20170722133419.GA18218@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 13:34:27 -0000 Thanks Les When searching various terms in the doc to figure out what happens i am not sure why i missed this one. But: IMHO, RFCs can not only be the minimum number of words to get a running implementation. It also needs to specify what this implementation intends to achieve. Otherwise its not possible to do a useful review: The reviewer can to verify whether the spec will achieve what it claims to achieve is there no definitionn of what it claims to achieve. If i understand ISIS correctly, my reverse engineering of the intent is: - BIER TLVs stay within single ISIS areas. BFIR and BFER must therefore be in the same ISIS area: There is no inter-area BIER traffic possible with this specification. This is also true for ISIS area 0. - The same BIER sub-domain identifiers can be re-used across different ISIS areas without any current impact. If these BFR-IDs are non-overlapping, then this would allow in the future to create a single cross ISIS area BIER sub-domain by leaking TLVs for such a BIER sub-domain across ISIS levels. Leakage is outside the scope of this specificication. I actually even would like to do the following: - If BIER sub-domains are made to span multiple ISIS areas and BFR-ids assignemtns are made such that all BFR-ids with the same SI are in the same ISIS ara, then it should be in the future reasonably easy to create inter-area BIER not by leaking of the BIER TLV but by having BFIR MPLS unicastBIER packets for different SIs to an appropriate L2L1 BFIR that is part of the destination area/SI. (if you would use SI number that are the same as ISIS area numbers then you could probably do this without any new signaling. Not quite sure if you can today easily find L1L2 border router for another area via existing TLVs). Alas, this idea will probably be killed because of the BIER architecture intent not to engineer SI assignments in geographical fashions to minimize traffic duplication in the presence of multiple SIs. Cheers Toerless On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:03:53AM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Tony/Toerless ??? > > There is an explicit statement as to scope: > > > Section 4.2 > ??? > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix reachability > advertisement is leaked between levels. > > > Tony seems to have forgotten that we had a discussion about how BIER might be supported across areas and the conclusion was we did not know how to do that yet. > (Sorry Tony) > > Note this is ???consistent??? with https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Section 2.5 - which limits the flooding scope of BIER information to a single area unless it can be validated that the best path to the prefix with BIER info can be validated to be to a router which itself advertised the BIER info. This is not something IS-IS can do since a single IS-IS instance only supports one area and therefore does not have the Level-1 advertisements of the originating router when that router is in another area. > > A few more responses inline. > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Przygienda > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 5:17 AM > To: Toerless Eckert > Cc: Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at); Greg Shepherd; bier@ietf.org; isis-wg@ietf.org list; Christian Hopps > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > Terminology is a bit nits IMO since the doc is reading clear enough for someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it or Les can comment whether we should tighten glossary ... > > With the scope I agree, that got lost and the doc should be possibly rev'ed before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was the agreement but something mentioning that this could change in the future is good so we are forced to give it some thought how that would transition ... > > Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a clean document really. The BIER sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of flooding scope. Normal L1-L2 redistribution can be used to get the info to all needed places AFAIS. So maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for Les to chime in. > > OSPF I would have to look @ scopes again & think whether we need to write something or maybe Peter can comment ... > > --- tony > > > > On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: > Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully benign textual comments: > > We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: > are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across > areas/levels or not. > > Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the whole > ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to that effect would > be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS areas/levels, so they span the whole ISIS domain). > > Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some sentence > about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER sub-domains ?). > > Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like sub-domain, level, area, topology so that reader that don't know the terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by heart can easily know which protocol is referred to. > > [Les:] There is no mention of ???level??? in the document. > The use of ???sub-domain??? is clearly always associated with ???BIER???. > ???topology??? is always used as an RFC 5120 topology ??? therefore clearly an IS-IS topology. > There is only one use of the term ???area??? (in Section 5.1). That text might deserve a bit of clarification given this might be either a Level 1 area or the Level2 sub-domain. I???ll take a pass at it. > (BTW ??? I am talking about IS-IS area/L2sub-domain Toerless. ???) > > I don???t see that any other clarification is needed ??? but Toerless ??? if you can point to any specific sentences/paragraphs which you find confusing - I???ll take a second look. > > Les > > > I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes reading easier if the > doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at least have them in the > Terminology section. And probably in terminology say "domain -> in the context > of this document the BIER domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain" > (which i hope is the correct statement, see above). > > Cheers > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > -- > We???ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true. > ???Robert Wilensky -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Jul 23 02:03:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947D0120721; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yNzGZegHGQiU; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472E4124217; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id w191so36224974wmw.1; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0UPPoa0zOh/j+P6mPLaG55jJL3PI7f2i05QKSQrw/z4=; b=W0+S6qvqTPBJ5AsjWtqeH+G5+R3KwV2wXYNp3pLDIzSnBPXrXq3PzZTV6+oG8A12+U tQl7hFy6I1YEZCDjwpfJVooEuSz44L2/m/B/x6z7Q8kxwztDNJq9c13JcZIrneBBmEAY 5v7V/utSGAqx0RHdLwqG63wpFn2vyFQRpJrQ9u1S7phG34CmmF54wCt/YMuYtmMUEOZj Bl5YRwkmMxlaq8mELBUYou5RvEG4QR/8BMPRDxRgrpyOyEI01sPyY8istTEl1qosARq7 fT2FLt5EKVwGpc/vLw7NCG/teevZz2gOBDmVNKRZ8ne0J1BgVpFS/HHmC97VYuGYiPci fF5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0UPPoa0zOh/j+P6mPLaG55jJL3PI7f2i05QKSQrw/z4=; b=cM/UIl/1+cKkLTfGO9lPGzqZpOvejKknx4DNEOZJfVDKcTGEmA7IT0LrfsIa/pLKvp MnS1arM0ifg4XYHea0gmvCS5MPuCVFiWQ4Vy6Pa7j0MeUkqwPgDZG1YILLtcgJ2qeu62 hXI1fL6IG4/wvMwF+DtCAFK4L7SV8O3Ig+tvOqpGlkIcjnnsaArjJGJ/2wQbe6Vl/yA+ BSFVHxuvM3th+jzMpH7D91V6K+IqLGrX1Q34eIWVCJHVFBpO60d7zt4X//DEm2rFUlsi hs3Qp1mcb9usZA+5uTOZPd/ZAHwSSjxD5eJsu3B87hBA4yzgASmxuiaJIilGdbmW5jze 8FhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw11035KgWKnJBzqyfDgfGyS5pgKDonzVtXRIdMeTUE/eTIWwcHWdB +DXQj0M//5Pi0Twj7QMk53mmvKnKgg== X-Received: by 10.80.222.13 with SMTP id z13mr10448971edk.212.1500800587834; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:03:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.138.99 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 02:02:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:02:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Toerless Eckert , "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043e44f0eaa9000554f85d6e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 09:03:11 -0000 --f403043e44f0eaa9000554f85d6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Tony/Toerless =E2=80=93 > > > > There is an explicit statement as to scope: > > > > > > Section 4.2 > > =E2=80=A6 > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix reachability > > advertisement is leaked between levels. > > > sigh, missed that on fly-over. > > > Tony seems to have forgotten that we had a discussion about how BIER migh= t > be supported across areas and the conclusion was we did not know how to d= o > that yet. > > (Sorry Tony) > I forgot about that specifically since we had multiple discussions, you, Peter, others and different conclusions have been reached in time per protocol. You're here to keep my distracted self honest ... OK< with that I think ISIS is a no-action-necessary. > > > Note this is =E2=80=9Cconsistent=E2=80=9D with https://www.ietf.org/id/dr= aft- > ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Section 2.5 - which limits the > flooding scope of BIER information to a single area unless it can be > validated that the best path to the prefix with BIER info can be validate= d > to be to a router which itself advertised the BIER info. > ah, ok, I see that that we're area-scope now as well. I know we had an agreement before that it would be AS scope or something so that changed and is consistent ... IMO no action on OSPF necessary either, Toerless ... Sorry for my imperfect memories when we talked .... > This is not something IS-IS can do since a single IS-IS instance only > supports one area and therefore does not have the Level-1 advertisements = of > the originating router when that router is in another area. > > > Well, we could say "loopbacks must be leaked ..." and so on but this is cleaner. We limit ourselves and solve the problem in the general ISIS framework if it comes up ... thanks Les --- tony --f403043e44f0eaa9000554f85d6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --f403043e44f0eaa9000554f85d6e-- From nobody Sun Jul 23 16:28:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC514124BE8; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gd6jnfMIMjvK; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 16:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F80A1288B8; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 16:28:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8201; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1500852490; x=1502062090; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=j14s3c/LqBYbnGxdbKlBwMoIUL+C94TwvU3vCU8RtXk=; b=m+kidVcbaeN/KjGuLzV9iHXZz133nqswjDM/hA3xu5VHSdbi+Ds76MHK 8pfQ8+ANVW5tPTW+Ne5RHugVC1Ydf+ErM/yze2Ice164dcG1fGXnFwFyW 85bDYSVi20dDXgTKD8pXWO62udp9jXq7qdM7j1GEVCMsGCaeo6DDmve9o I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CQAQCFMHVZ/4gNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBg1pkgRQHn2uWBYISIQuFGwKDfkEWAQIBAQEBAQEBayiFGAEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQElEzQLDAQCAQgOAwEDAQEBHgkHJwsUAwYIAgQOBQiKJxCwTjqLMQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgyiDTYFgAYIYgQyER0qFTgWXHIgyApQTghWJSIZ?= =?us-ascii?q?jlWMBJgYrgQp1FUmFExyBZ3aHdgIkB4EFgQ4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,403,1496102400"; d="scan'208";a="277200686" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Jul 2017 23:28:08 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6NNS9Je005508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 23 Jul 2017 23:28:09 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 18:28:08 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 23 Jul 2017 18:28:08 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Toerless Eckert CC: Tony Przygienda , "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 Thread-Index: AQHTAep+OLJgflK73kG/QMbI+G29DqJehpmAgADQ+xCAANbZgIAB4x3A Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 23:28:08 +0000 Message-ID: <37e324dc58454778b70c72255066536f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20170722133419.GA18218@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20170722133419.GA18218@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.118.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 23:28:13 -0000 Toerless - I am thinking to add a statement in Section 4.1 - something like: "At present, IS-IS support for a given BIER domain/sub-domain is limited to= a single area - or to the IS-IS L2 sub-domain." If you believe this would be helpful I will spin a new version (subject to = review/agreement from my co-authors). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:34 AM > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Cc: Tony Przygienda; Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at); Greg Shepherd; > bier@ietf.org; isis-wg@ietf.org list; Christian Hopps > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 >=20 > Thanks Les >=20 > When searching various terms in the doc to figure out what happens i am n= ot > sure why i missed this one. >=20 > But: IMHO, RFCs can not only be the minimum number of words to get a > running implementation. It also needs to specify what this implementation > intends to achieve. Otherwise its not possible to do a useful review: > The reviewer can to verify whether the spec will achieve what it claims t= o > achieve is there no definitionn of what it claims to achieve. >=20 > If i understand ISIS correctly, my reverse engineering of the intent is: >=20 > - BIER TLVs stay within single ISIS areas. BFIR and BFER must therefore b= e > in the same ISIS area: There is no inter-area BIER traffic possible > with this specification. This is also true for ISIS area 0. >=20 > - The same BIER sub-domain identifiers can be re-used > across different ISIS areas without any current impact. If these BFR-ID= s > are non-overlapping, then this would allow in the future to create a si= ngle > cross ISIS area BIER sub-domain by leaking TLVs for such a BIER sub-dom= ain > across ISIS levels. Leakage is outside the scope of this specificicatio= n. >=20 > I actually even would like to do the following: >=20 > - If BIER sub-domains are made to span multiple ISIS areas and BFR-ids > assignemtns > are made such that all BFR-ids with the same SI are in the same ISIS ar= a, > then it should be in the future reasonably easy to create inter-area BI= ER > not by leaking of the BIER TLV but by having BFIR MPLS unicastBIER pack= ets > for different SIs to an appropriate L2L1 BFIR that is part of the desti= nation > area/SI. > (if you would use SI number that are the same as ISIS area numbers then > you could probably do this without any new signaling. Not quite sure i= f > you can today easily find L1L2 border router for another area via exis= ting > TLVs). >=20 > Alas, this idea will probably be killed because of the BIER architectur= e > intent not to engineer SI assignments in geographical fashions to > minimize traffic duplication in the presence of multiple SIs. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:03:53AM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > > Tony/Toerless ??? > > > > There is an explicit statement as to scope: > > > > > > Section 4.2 > > ??? > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix reachability > > advertisement is leaked between levels. > > > > > > Tony seems to have forgotten that we had a discussion about how BIER > might be supported across areas and the conclusion was we did not know > how to do that yet. > > (Sorry Tony) > > > > Note this is ???consistent??? with https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-b= ier- > ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Section 2.5 bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt%20Section%202.5> - which limits the > flooding scope of BIER information to a single area unless it can be vali= dated > that the best path to the prefix with BIER info can be validated to be to= a > router which itself advertised the BIER info. This is not something IS-IS= can do > since a single IS-IS instance only supports one area and therefore does n= ot > have the Level-1 advertisements of the originating router when that route= r is > in another area. > > > > A few more responses inline. > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Przygienda > > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 5:17 AM > > To: Toerless Eckert > > Cc: Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at); Greg Shepherd; bier@ietf.org; > > isis-wg@ietf.org list; Christian Hopps > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > > > Terminology is a bit nits IMO since the doc is reading clear enough fo= r > someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it or Les can comment whether > we should tighten glossary ... > > > > With the scope I agree, that got lost and the doc should be possibly re= v'ed > before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was the agreement but something > mentioning that this could change in the future is good so we are forced = to > give it some thought how that would transition ... > > > > Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a clean document really. The = BIER > sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of flooding scope. Normal L1-= L2 > redistribution can be used to get the info to all needed places AFAIS. So > maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for Les to chime in. > > > > OSPF I would have to look @ scopes again & think whether we need to > write something or maybe Peter can comment ... > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert > > wrote: > > Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully benign textual comments: > > > > We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - e= g: > > are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across > > areas/levels or not. > > > > Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the > > whole ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to tha= t > effect would > > be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS areas/l= evels, > so they span the whole ISIS domain). > > > > Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some > > sentence about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER s= ub- > domains ?). > > > > Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like > sub-domain, level, area, topology so that reader that don't know the > terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by heart can easily know which > protocol is referred to. > > > > [Les:] There is no mention of ???level??? in the document. > > The use of ???sub-domain??? is clearly always associated with ???BIER??= ?. > > ???topology??? is always used as an RFC 5120 topology ??? therefore > clearly an IS-IS topology. > > There is only one use of the term ???area??? (in Section 5.1). That tex= t > might deserve a bit of clarification given this might be either a Level 1= area or > the Level2 sub-domain. I???ll take a pass at it. > > (BTW ??? I am talking about IS-IS area/L2sub-domain Toerless. ???) > > > > I don???t see that any other clarification is needed ??? but Toerless ?= ?? if > you can point to any specific sentences/paragraphs which you find confusi= ng > - I???ll take a second look. > > > > Les > > > > > > I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes > > reading easier if the doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at > > least have them in the Terminology section. And probably in > > terminology say "domain -> in the context of this document the BIER > domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain" > > (which i hope is the correct statement, see above). > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > -- > > We???ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, > we know that is not true. > > ???Robert Wilensky >=20 > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jul 24 11:21:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D1A12ECCB for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qv1af4VArYjJ for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com (mail-qt0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E995312EB8C for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id s6so25844026qtc.1 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yi55u28dx9tCzja27R4Ma7/r0p6/NE6fwoka2cMUNGw=; b=CMecQXWOM/k/pBP+uZYDYjYq4et7qSlb080jXnLWlTvoV9eFqimKAxwMm2aDO+kp3h aZqDWExGs55z8MKJc5v5k+54TTI8UkS7oOZDt1n3TY2DQeqLFxotfzFeLa+Q1YWXe2s+ bALGWZF1JHv9Z6VdJu8qfBbha/OUQsaiytUmk0ctVX1pnf5vtb42MiBmAJbGK29DDKEc mk4ZS5NG4Uwn+t12C/l74jr3ba4Fxm+5YO4VhX+quqqQZOgal7lHJ5l4kCLpVGqccpHJ EE1rkOqNP+2VxuVIgOdIMbE78hXWyi4gXziVKne6xi0nEeTBA3C4/AFy5/elQbPVxu2x 0SRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=yi55u28dx9tCzja27R4Ma7/r0p6/NE6fwoka2cMUNGw=; b=MNcFsI7n9V1Vu9MbbhEdC7I4A+6MVOHvi8furhgMPudVAGiTgAN4l6k5Eva+MDMpqO FY+65Ut8PE21kSqgHgevZpCZz25YCuyT5OkEul3RLJIB0hIdigHGnq3zIT4KHCHc9qw3 SEyvPlzsis34N/MQF70nDxr9o8G1k2Nvrf5TyXPhLJRD3tSvguCDs0sECfZghgEjvTiq +RfNfx7Z6+NXJklKMV7bG6Bm3dLY1NB/MZIJmq8LayYJaAzfXXn5m9laNyU0oWFV5zgw 5k4OFixHACabxT4DhnJVn0z8K9CfQY6M6G/gIUE9oN13LrsrAXunlBYuwqn9cPSkfbur gwkg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111yqgxoQrmaIMIBKppZNXWPTYQmL/3qzdz3BcsIxZYgDGoHw65x OCiIym0B2RigyRg0jPe9fxUEWjsRzByZ X-Received: by 10.200.36.145 with SMTP id s17mr20751190qts.224.1500920481884; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.152.217 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:21:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141042c28ae7a0555144800" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG IETF 99 Minutes X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 18:21:25 -0000 --001a1141042c28ae7a0555144800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Please read and review the minutes below, and provide feedback soon so I can post them this week. Thanks ------------ BIER Meeting IETF 99 Minute taker: Pierre Pfister Note Well: Agenda: BIER PIM Stitching (draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling by Hooman Bidgoli): Greg Shepherd - Where is the edge of the BIER domain? Bigdoli Hooman / Andrew Dolganov - P routers only. draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-01 by Sandy Zhang: Greg Shepherd (to Sandy Zhang): Can you tell us what was the babel WG feedback was ? Greg Shepherd (to Juliusz Chroboczek): Did you read the draft ? Juliusz Chroboczek: I have read the draft. Greg Shepherd: How does it work in networks with non BIER babel routers ? Sandy Zhang: It is working, there is implementation. Juliusz Chroboczek: babel WG is looking at this draft with interest. But for now the babel WG is focusing on the core elements of babel. This document will therefore not be adopted by the babel WG before the babel core specifications are published. Greg Shepherd: BIER is pretty well cooked in this doc. But we would like babel to have a better look. This document could live in the babel WG. Toerless Eckert: Did homenet went to mbone to ask for input ? Pierre Pfister: I went to mbone and pim WGs to present homenet and multicast. They did not care. Alia Atlas: Babel is the place for this document to be done. Because BIER depends on advertising things. Babel experts will have to look at it. The homenet architecture document only talks about PIM, but BIER applicability could be evaluated. Tim Chown: Babel is the homenet routing protocol. There was some discussion about homenet in the BIER WG at some point. Alia: Please have inter-WG discussions on mailing lists. IETF process also involves other WGs when documents are reviewed. draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-analysis-00 by Sandy Zhang: Tony Przygienda: Does multi-homing work ? If there are multiple join ? How to not get replicates ? Sandy Zhang: BMLD does that. Leaf knows about group membership. Tony Przygienda: We are short in time. Continue the dicussion on the mailing list. Toerless Eckert: We should present to NVO3. They don't need to understand BIER, but they would know the service that they would get using BIER. Sandy Zhang: Want to clarify that the draft is under discussion with people I know which are working on data-centers. Alia Atlas: There is an NVO3mcast in the publication queue. It went to PIM and mbone for review. Please review that document in BIER as well. BIER-TE/BIER-TE-FRR by Toerless Eckert: Greg Shepherd (chair-hat-on): When this first came out. There were concerns. Toerless Eckert: They are addressed. But we didn't renew the call for adoption. Greg Shepherd: Is this work that we should do ? Yes: Many hands up No: No hands up Alia Atlas: If this has hardware impact, do we need to hold off the architecture document ? Should we delay the implementation finalization ? Greg Shepherd: I think the BIER FIB doesn't change. Toerless Eckert: It is up to the vendors to decide whether they want to do it or not. Greg Shepherd: If this changes the architecture, it should be added to the architecture document. Alia Atlas: It is concerning though. Andrew Dolganow: Do not delay. Greg Shepherd: I agree Toerless Eckert: I don't want to hold either. Implementers should check this ! draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 by Jeffrey Zhang: Greg Shepherd: Who read the draft ? --> 6 to 8 hands up Status Update from Chair: Greg Shepherd: Operation considerations. There will be an operational doc out of the group. Greg Shepherd: Call for document shepherds for WGLC docs. Alia Atlas: Sheparding doc requires reading the document. It is cool to discover IETF process. It is helpful to show interest. Ethertype for BIER: Alia Atlas: We need encap draft. Tony said there is a draft about encap and header format. Since MPLS is going to be deployed soon, and there is no strong request for Ethernet, we can wait for IEEE and MPLS code to happen first. Justification Draft: Greg and Andrew will begin the work. Adjourn. --001a1141042c28ae7a0555144800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Please read and review the minutes below, and provide= feedback soon so I can post them this week. Thanks

    ------------
    BIER Meeting IETF 99
    Minute taker: Pierr= e Pfister

    Note Well:

    <= div>Agenda:

    BIER PIM Stitching (draft-hfa-bier= -pim-tunneling by Hooman Bidgoli):
    <Slide: Multicast state= example>

    Greg Shepherd - Where is the edge= of the BIER domain?
    Bigdoli Hooman / Andrew Dolganov - P routers= only.

    <End of presentation>

    draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-01 by Sandy Zhang:
    <= /div>

    Greg Shepherd (to Sandy Zhang): Can you tell us wh= at was the babel WG feedback was ?


    <= div>Greg Shepherd (to Juliusz Chroboczek): Did you read the draft ?

    Juliusz Chroboczek: I have read the draft.
    <= div>
    Greg Shepherd: How does it work in networks with non BIE= R babel routers ?

    Sandy Zhang: It is working, = there is implementation.

    Juliusz Chroboczek: b= abel WG is looking at this draft with interest. But for now the babel WG is= focusing on the core elements of babel. This
    =C2=A0document = will therefore not be adopted by the babel WG before the babel core specifi= cations are published.


    Greg Shepher= d: BIER is pretty well cooked in this doc. But we would like babel to have = a better look. This document could live in the babel WG.

    =

    Toerless Eckert: Did homenet went to mbone to ask= for input ?

    Pierre Pfister: I went to mbone a= nd pim WGs to present homenet and multicast. They did not care.

    Alia Atlas: Babel is the place for this document to be do= ne. Because BIER depends on advertising things. Babel experts will have to = look at it.
    =C2=A0The homenet architecture document only talk= s about PIM, but BIER applicability could be evaluated.

    Tim Chown: Babel is the homenet routing protocol. There was some disc= ussion about homenet in the BIER WG at some point.

    =
    Alia: Please have inter-WG discussions on mailing lists. IETF process = also involves other WGs when documents are reviewed.


    draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-analysis-00 by Sandy Zhang:

    Tony Przygienda: Does multi-homing work ? If th= ere are multiple join ? How to not get replicates ?

    Sandy Zhang: BMLD does that. Leaf knows about group membership.

    Tony Przygienda: We are short in time. Continue the= dicussion on the mailing list.

    Toerless Ecker= t: We should present to NVO3. They don't need to understand BIER, but t= hey would know the service that they would get using BIER.
    Sandy Zhang: Want to clarify that the draft is under discussio= n with people I know which are working on data-centers.

    <= /div>
    Alia Atlas: There is an NVO3mcast in the publication queue. It we= nt to PIM and mbone for review. Please review that document in BIER as well= .



    BIER-TE/BIER-T= E-FRR by Toerless Eckert: =C2=A0=C2=A0

    Greg Sh= epherd (chair-hat-on): When this first came out. There were concerns.

    Toerless Eckert: They are addressed. But we didn= 9;t renew the call for adoption.

    Greg Shepherd= : Is this work that we should do ?

    Yes: Many h= ands up
    No: No hands up

    Alia Atl= as: If this has hardware impact, do we need to hold off the architecture do= cument ? Should we delay the implementation finalization ?
    Greg Shepherd: I think the BIER FIB doesn't change.

    Toerless Eckert: It is up to the vendors to decide w= hether they want to do it or not.

    Greg Shepher= d: If this changes the architecture, it should be added to the architecture= document.

    Alia Atlas: It is concerning though= .

    Andrew Dolganow: Do not delay.

    Greg Shepherd: I agree

    Toerles= s Eckert: I don't want to hold either. Implementers should check this !=


    draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 by J= effrey Zhang:

    Greg Shepherd: Who read the draf= t ? --> 6 to 8 hands up

    Status Update from = Chair:

    Greg Shepherd: Operation considerations= . There will be an operational doc out of the group.

    Greg Shepherd: Call for document shepherds for WGLC docs.
    <= div>
    Alia Atlas: Sheparding doc requires reading the document= . It is cool to discover IETF process. It is helpful to show interest.
    <= /div>

    Ethertype for BIER:

    A= lia Atlas: We need encap draft. Tony said there is a draft about encap and = header format. Since MPLS is going to be deployed soon, and there
    =C2=A0is no strong request for Ethernet, we can wait for IEEE and MPLS cod= e to happen first.

    Justification Draft: Greg and A= ndrew will begin the work.

    Adjourn.
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HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JPJfWDhwNQnB; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 12:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DCF8126D46; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 12:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB8158C4D6; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:52:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 7907CB0C6BC; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:52:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:52:11 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Tony Przygienda , "Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" , Christian Hopps Message-ID: <20170725195211.GA7411@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20170721062741.GA3215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <567fdbe4992c4207b54c77b1ec8cd0cd@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> <20170722133419.GA18218@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <37e324dc58454778b70c72255066536f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <37e324dc58454778b70c72255066536f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 19:52:21 -0000 Thanks, Less, that would be lovely! I didn't check the OSPF draft, if its similar state, explanatory text wold equally be appreciated. On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 11:28:08PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Toerless - > > I am thinking to add a statement in Section 4.1 - something like: > > "At present, IS-IS support for a given BIER domain/sub-domain is limited to a single area - or to the IS-IS L2 sub-domain." > > If you believe this would be helpful I will spin a new version (subject to review/agreement from my co-authors). > > Les > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] > > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:34 AM > > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > > Cc: Tony Przygienda; Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at); Greg Shepherd; > > bier@ietf.org; isis-wg@ietf.org list; Christian Hopps > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > > > Thanks Les > > > > When searching various terms in the doc to figure out what happens i am not > > sure why i missed this one. > > > > But: IMHO, RFCs can not only be the minimum number of words to get a > > running implementation. It also needs to specify what this implementation > > intends to achieve. Otherwise its not possible to do a useful review: > > The reviewer can to verify whether the spec will achieve what it claims to > > achieve is there no definitionn of what it claims to achieve. > > > > If i understand ISIS correctly, my reverse engineering of the intent is: > > > > - BIER TLVs stay within single ISIS areas. BFIR and BFER must therefore be > > in the same ISIS area: There is no inter-area BIER traffic possible > > with this specification. This is also true for ISIS area 0. > > > > - The same BIER sub-domain identifiers can be re-used > > across different ISIS areas without any current impact. If these BFR-IDs > > are non-overlapping, then this would allow in the future to create a single > > cross ISIS area BIER sub-domain by leaking TLVs for such a BIER sub-domain > > across ISIS levels. Leakage is outside the scope of this specificication. > > > > I actually even would like to do the following: > > > > - If BIER sub-domains are made to span multiple ISIS areas and BFR-ids > > assignemtns > > are made such that all BFR-ids with the same SI are in the same ISIS ara, > > then it should be in the future reasonably easy to create inter-area BIER > > not by leaking of the BIER TLV but by having BFIR MPLS unicastBIER packets > > for different SIs to an appropriate L2L1 BFIR that is part of the destination > > area/SI. > > (if you would use SI number that are the same as ISIS area numbers then > > you could probably do this without any new signaling. Not quite sure if > > you can today easily find L1L2 border router for another area via existing > > TLVs). > > > > Alas, this idea will probably be killed because of the BIER architecture > > intent not to engineer SI assignments in geographical fashions to > > minimize traffic duplication in the presence of multiple SIs. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:03:53AM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > > > Tony/Toerless ??? > > > > > > There is an explicit statement as to scope: > > > > > > > > > Section 4.2 > > > ??? > > > o BIER sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix reachability > > > advertisement is leaked between levels. > > > > > > > > > Tony seems to have forgotten that we had a discussion about how BIER > > might be supported across areas and the conclusion was we did not know > > how to do that yet. > > > (Sorry Tony) > > > > > > Note this is ???consistent??? with https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier- > > ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt Section 2.5 > bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.txt%20Section%202.5> - which limits the > > flooding scope of BIER information to a single area unless it can be validated > > that the best path to the prefix with BIER info can be validated to be to a > > router which itself advertised the BIER info. This is not something IS-IS can do > > since a single IS-IS instance only supports one area and therefore does not > > have the Level-1 advertisements of the originating router when that router is > > in another area. > > > > > > A few more responses inline. > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Przygienda > > > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 5:17 AM > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > Cc: Hannes Gredler (hannes@gredler.at); Greg Shepherd; bier@ietf.org; > > > isis-wg@ietf.org list; Christian Hopps > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-04 > > > > > > Terminology is a bit nits IMO since the doc is reading clear enough for > > someone who read BIER & ISIS. I can reread it or Les can comment whether > > we should tighten glossary ... > > > > > > With the scope I agree, that got lost and the doc should be possibly rev'ed > > before closing LC. Yes, we flood AD wide was the agreement but something > > mentioning that this could change in the future is good so we are forced to > > give it some thought how that would transition ... > > > > > > Thinking further though, in ISIS we have a clean document really. The BIER > > sub-TLVs go into well defined TLVs in terms of flooding scope. Normal L1-L2 > > redistribution can be used to get the info to all needed places AFAIS. So > > maybe nothing needs to be written. I wait for Les to chime in. > > > > > > OSPF I would have to look @ scopes again & think whether we need to > > write something or maybe Peter can comment ... > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Toerless Eckert > > > wrote: > > > Sorry, past the two weeks, but hopefully benign textual comments: > > > > > > We tried to find an explicit statement about the scope of BIER TLVs - eg: > > > are they meant to stay within an area, have some redistribution across > > > areas/levels or not. > > > > > > Tony said WG agreement was to have these TLV be flooded across the > > > whole ISIS domain for now (this draft). So an explicit statement to that > > effect would > > > be great (All BIER sub-domains TLVs are flooded across all ISIS areas/levels, > > so they span the whole ISIS domain). > > > > > > Also, if future work may/should could improve on that maybe some > > > sentence about that (i guess one could just have ISIS intra-area BIER sub- > > domains ?). > > > > > > Also: Do a check about possible ambiguity of any generic terms like > > sub-domain, level, area, topology so that reader that don't know the > > terminology ofall protocols (ISIS, BIER) by heart can easily know which > > protocol is referred to. > > > > > > [Les:] There is no mention of ???level??? in the document. > > > The use of ???sub-domain??? is clearly always associated with ???BIER???. > > > ???topology??? is always used as an RFC 5120 topology ??? therefore > > clearly an IS-IS topology. > > > There is only one use of the term ???area??? (in Section 5.1). That text > > might deserve a bit of clarification given this might be either a Level 1 area or > > the Level2 sub-domain. I???ll take a pass at it. > > > (BTW ??? I am talking about IS-IS area/L2sub-domain Toerless. ???) > > > > > > I don???t see that any other clarification is needed ??? but Toerless ??? if > > you can point to any specific sentences/paragraphs which you find confusing > > - I???ll take a second look. > > > > > > Les > > > > > > > > > I guess there are no BIER level, area or topologies, but still makes > > > reading easier if the doc would say "ISIS level", "ISIS area", or at > > > least have them in the Terminology section. And probably in > > > terminology say "domain -> in the context of this document the BIER > > domain which is also the same as the ISIS domain" > > > (which i hope is the correct statement, see above). > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > We???ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > > produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, > > we know that is not true. > > > ???Robert Wilensky > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Jul 26 08:08:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C42D132059; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:08:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150108169737.23202.17196890243469859413@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:08:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 15:08:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : Multicast VPN Using BIER Authors : Eric C. Rosen Mahesh Sivakumar Sam K Aldrin Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Filename : draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-07.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2017-07-26 Abstract: The Multicast Virtual Private Network (MVPN) specifications require the use of multicast tunnels ("P-tunnels") that traverse a Service Provider's backbone network. The P-tunnels are used for carrying multicast traffic across the backbone. A variety of P-tunnel types are supported. Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is a new architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "multicast domain", without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any per-flow state or to engage in an explicit tree-building protocol. This document specifies the protocol and procedures that allow MVPN to use BIER as the method of carrying multicast traffic over an SP backbone network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 26 12:12:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7984D131D1E for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XJ8bxu0UXk_L for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93DAC12EC13 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id m85so75653585wma.1 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nGBX+gkFIQuxdYyu61CCVQPVraFFnVJ61i4aWTKCPHY=; b=tMHJSDBS6HGpISzsmnbmJJgLAoAhvFL5ef2OVvyZeFINYFIKCEvzNZy/aqan4xAzWy wXLyfi912CtFRNGzltuPOj9poIf8mspKSHZ4PHnVonYBPSB973BPv2X4tSdTGYlM5Vqm NOiApo/dFPZSnCVTKj5w2Nb5lp26ZyIERP3TTimouDvrX8ZzHXRVcLNxF60ILDly3bLQ 8DsTfBQx3No9w2idIHfahIt1dtSrD3xVa00suNpTH0DloYOFSC6K1Wvjs8P8qEjYOIFG vaj2V8T52bgBmDNkrGu0HAeB+Fj/lTll4nb7A3JjbDiV7GzJ9f7DPN+leoPqlg2rwRv0 blmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nGBX+gkFIQuxdYyu61CCVQPVraFFnVJ61i4aWTKCPHY=; b=gysOUatDFFPX5tn2UoTte6hM4SO8XmYn1pTu7mesV/KuStlPYbImpFFrjJBxkl4Ar3 M/GH+r6g379zvDrX2jMTWdCeFdspHWo9kxz5Syem0lAf0r8uHYSkK6xWI2xicb7eDW6l njhSzXZutOu16C5Ps/nJM8gpPeqE7xMqi8k66BBxJzP8+hr6HBmC6QDKhB3OelfttNGE c+KlVtUPB+whiY3UDx3dOyfOgp7rLAOfm86opL4QuOsZmQR7R5IteJvX99lUyEeYwQhq Sv5WAM60bSoptl/WM3UzbQNtINqtV8+CEHZF61KD+kNfj3B1DleWO4rsehnzLQ2QqPAo vRyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113nmQVI4L1hx83sKl2fNIsoStb8GkpdjtwfHy1HYF/+iuxtxwmd CUfFPg2xkHABBmW1I3xB5tufC6pXULL2 X-Received: by 10.28.70.68 with SMTP id t65mr1463995wma.163.1501096316859; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:11:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.183.1 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:11:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alia Atlas Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 15:11:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d45fcbd7ae005553d385b" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] forwarding plane changes for BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 19:12:00 -0000 --94eb2c0d45fcbd7ae005553d385b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Toerless, As I mentioned in the BIER WG meeting, it would be very helpful to have a clear and up-front section for the BIER-TE draft that clearly explains the needed impact and changes for BIER-TE. As we are working on finishing up the encapsulation draft, this would be useful for those looking at hardware implementations and what changes might be interesting in the future. Thanks, Alia --94eb2c0d45fcbd7ae005553d385b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Toerless,

    As I mentioned in the BIER= WG meeting, it would be very helpful to have a clear and up-front section = for the BIER-TE draft that clearly explains the needed impact and changes f= or BIER-TE.

    As we are working on finishing up the = encapsulation draft, this would be useful for those looking at hardware imp= lementations and what changes might be interesting in the future.

    Thanks,
    Alia
    --94eb2c0d45fcbd7ae005553d385b-- From nobody Thu Jul 27 15:46:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16414131CF7; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150119557605.25329.17065227637710076451@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:46:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:46:16 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER support via ISIS Authors : Les Ginsberg Tony Przygienda Sam Aldrin Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2017-07-27 Abstract: Specification of an ISIS extension to support BIER domains and sub- domains. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jul 27 15:49:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBA5131E6A; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:49:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCSbZ4-i0OZd; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 318E2131600; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:49:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1886; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1501195747; x=1502405347; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=UIQPD0lnu9mLEz4bTrD1cOXekVoLA8tC3VdIPjjSrsc=; b=bZ3k1MFmUXby9qIu6uYi2QsBXRhAeq71xsx7rRiJj09FslShrBWlst33 5ZNUBm4F8agMZoNM5wXv+tZ4L72PzPUK7zic0MpZy/KiKJ2QieixvcJ7B 6NM3+1ErCJ0Ffde7YXFPmd9Nr4noU4eGGeGv8Re6XyaXHAmK/zJObqy0A A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D+AABgbXpZ/40NJK1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBg1pkbScHjgaRYpYKghIhDYUZAoNlPxgBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUYAQEBAQM?= =?us-ascii?q?BATg0FwQCAQgRBAEBHwkHJwsUCQgCBAESCIonELFli0ABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEdgyiDTYFhgySDJodBBZ9mAodNjE2CFVeEe4pelXEBHziBCncVHyq?= =?us-ascii?q?HGXaIcoEOAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,422,1496102400"; d="scan'208";a="273658541" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 27 Jul 2017 22:49:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6RMn6if017674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:49:06 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:49:05 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:49:05 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "bier@ietf.org" , "isis-wg@ietf.org list" Thread-Topic: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHTByo0Egc2bHOu6EGRg4rDZDKj56JoRnnQ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:49:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150119557605.25329.17065227637710076451@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150119557605.25329.17065227637710076451@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.199.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:49:09 -0000 This new version addresses comments from Toerless Eckert. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 3:46 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of t= he IETF. >=20 > Title : BIER support via ISIS > Authors : Les Ginsberg > Tony Przygienda > Sam Aldrin > Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Filename : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05.txt > Pages : 12 > Date : 2017-07-27 >=20 > Abstract: > Specification of an ISIS extension to support BIER domains and sub- > domains. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-05 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Jul 31 19:25:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3F012420B; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 19:24:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150155429566.30767.11149854220394501441@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 19:24:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 02:24:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Link-State extensions for BIER Authors : Ran Chen Zheng Zhang Vengada Prasad Govindan IJsbrand Wijnands Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-01.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2017-07-31 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bitstring in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document specifies extensions to the BGP Link-state address- family in order to advertising BIER information. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


    On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@ci= sco.com> wrote:

    Tony/Toerless =E2=80=93

    =C2=A0

    There is an explicit stat= ement as to scope:

    =C2=A0

    <snip>

    Section 4.2=

    =E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 BIER= sub-TLVs MUST NOT be included when a prefix reachability

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 advertisement is leaked between levels.

    <end snip>


    sigh, missed that on fly-ove= r.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Tony seems to have forgot= ten that we had a discussion about how BIER might be supported across areas= and the conclusion was we did not know how to do that yet.

    (Sorry Tony)


    I forgot about that specifically= since we had multiple discussions, you, Peter, others and different conclu= sions have been reached in time per protocol. You're here to keep my di= stracted self honest ... =C2=A0

    OK< with that I= think ISIS is a no-action-necessary.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    Note this is =E2=80=9Ccon= sistent=E2=80=9D with https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-07.t= xt Section 2.5 - which limits the flooding scope of BIER information to= a single area unless it can be validated that the best path to the prefix = with BIER info can be validated to be to a router which itself advertised the BIER info.


    ah, ok, I see that that we're area-scope no= w as well. I know we had an agreement before that it would be AS scope or s= omething so that changed and is consistent ...=C2=A0

    IMO no action on OSPF necessary either, Toerless ... Sorry for my imperf= ect memories when we talked ....=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    This is not something IS-IS can do since a single IS-IS i= nstance only supports one area and therefore does not have the Level-1 adve= rtisements of the originating router when that router is in another area.

    =C2=A0

    <= /div>

    Well, we could say "loopba= cks must be leaked ..." and so on but this is cleaner. We limit oursel= ves and solve the problem in the general ISIS framework if it comes up ...= =C2=A0

    thanks Les=C2=A0

    -= -- tony=C2=A0