From nobody Tue Aug 1 11:27:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B94132224 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dyhcQbaXDegU for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E84E2132221 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id h199so12222527ith.0 for ; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=tBhz12zx6H6iomjmXGx++S4EX69AcTOXbzooUKxwymo=; b=PfVIkgOq/dM2r1+1JHuaDOBBoF907lJ7isoDMjcdLPLviT7YNOpWdOhVJakz64n8Hq EOwzzNr+DBiIcWQNeXtg/YgvtpodyOpkx+f5IQGJgaUWxTIuuADh34CfP7Zz+smGcjwi 0Irmui7ZRpoprUNONlEfv88eTDw5Zg5+iqRBuAECEqfYAIxfDb38vfmS2qC7NeDq3FrT XlqX0f2zLT2nA+d+T6swLUDPj4+36qEvHAXrOOrFddc1PPXACpGFeqCqg0zwvzS7R5ZL 1DujqxxnIyn/Owx3zoLdRurL8eHNqQ6SXUE7YWGot686QoAgWKOtdclVJEQVX2Gul0Ze puRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tBhz12zx6H6iomjmXGx++S4EX69AcTOXbzooUKxwymo=; b=fIbKPjOITNqWhJeoiiXABZW3hYCJvy63zM4trWBBMD4NIlPwVrR2f9TUKtXH6G4zeP AR/7M/WaHfGhxSP9NFw/FobRFso7kjPe3LM6oDrDqdwZAqG3xwk4tmyAhGbNVT6tfi0X jQPIpMRJaSfHzlppniQgI0JyLPTnPx1eGvM51q6JMCXe3GJJ6E/4DihVC+JFTkSd+8rT CS5kHOtUUATeAEwwoJcIVtqdTYndUFZQS9BWPd+tnndpaPTKxQpuWR2+rvwtAN3M9fjm LhrK7zhCZAYWa3VFXtdSja3ZsXyk4GDpv6O3oZ2pfNrVjH1FkvCn0lyjZbl7966K78GE UbFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112maKmYTNrj2Gm+85Mdbbh/eelzEw7ccPv1Eq+Qy9/6u58jO4qv OFXepxBpORurVGab4WDRzTfzieOfRf1S X-Received: by 10.36.31.72 with SMTP id d69mr2880189itd.78.1501612062174; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.120.4 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:27:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145ee9c8e75b50555b54d07" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG IETF 99 Minutes X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 18:27:56 -0000 --001a1145ee9c8e75b50555b54d07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Minutes updated from feedback: On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Please read and review the minutes below, and provide feedback soon so I > can post them this week. Thanks > > ------------ > BIER Meeting IETF 99 > Minute taker: Pierre Pfister > > Note Well: > > Agenda: > > BIER PIM Stitching (draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling by Hooman Bidgoli): > > > Greg Shepherd - Where is the edge of the BIER domain? > Bigdoli Hooman / Andrew Dolganov - P routers only. > Tony: Expect new draft version from the authors to clean-up/clarify issues discussed like non-dependency on MVPN, BiStrting length, SSM-only, making clear what=E2=80=99s informational vs normative, terminology, etc. Hooman/Andrew =E2=80=93 yes new version accounting for WG members feedb= ack on the list and during the meeting will be published. > > > > draft-zhang-bier-babel-extensions-01 by Sandy Zhang: > > Greg Shepherd (to Sandy Zhang): Can you tell us what was the babel WG > feedback was ? > > > Greg Shepherd (to Juliusz Chroboczek): Did you read the draft ? > > Juliusz Chroboczek: I have read the draft. > > Greg Shepherd: How does it work in networks with non BIER babel routers ? > > Sandy Zhang: It is working, there is implementation. > > Juliusz Chroboczek: babel WG is looking at this draft with interest. But > for now the babel WG is focusing on the core elements of babel. This > document will therefore not be adopted by the babel WG before the babel > core specifications are published. > > > Greg Shepherd: BIER is pretty well cooked in this doc. But we would like > babel to have a better look. This document could live in the babel WG. > > > Toerless Eckert: Did homenet went to mbone to ask for input ? > > Pierre Pfister: I went to mbone and pim WGs to present homenet and > multicast. They did not care. > > Alia Atlas: Babel is the place for this document to be done. Because BIER > depends on advertising things. Babel experts will have to look at it. > The homenet architecture document only talks about PIM, but BIER > applicability could be evaluated. > > Tim Chown: Babel is the homenet routing protocol. There was some > discussion about homenet in the BIER WG at some point. > > Alia: Please have inter-WG discussions on mailing lists. IETF process als= o > involves other WGs when documents are reviewed. > > > draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-analysis-00 by Sandy Zhang: > > Tony Przygienda: Does multi-homing work ? If there are multiple join ? Ho= w > to not get replicates ? > > Sandy Zhang: BMLD does that. Leaf knows about group membership. > > Tony Przygienda: We are short in time. Continue the dicussion on the > mailing list. > > Toerless Eckert: We should present to NVO3. They don't need to understand > BIER, but they would know the service that they would get using BIER. > > Sandy Zhang: Want to clarify that the draft is under discussion with > people I know which are working on data-centers. > > Alia Atlas: There is an NVO3mcast in the publication queue. It went to PI= M > and mbone for review. Please review that document in BIER as well. > > > > BIER-TE/BIER-TE-FRR by Toerless Eckert: > > Greg Shepherd (chair-hat-on): When this first came out. There were > concerns. > > Toerless Eckert: They are addressed. But we didn't renew the call for > adoption. > > Greg Shepherd: Is this work that we should do ? > > Yes: Many hands up > No: No hands up > > Alia Atlas: If this has hardware impact, do we need to hold off the > architecture document ? Should we delay the implementation finalization ? > > Greg Shepherd: I think the BIER FIB doesn't change. > > Toerless Eckert: It is up to the vendors to decide whether they want to d= o > it or not. > > Greg Shepherd: If this changes the architecture, it should be added to th= e > architecture document. > > Alia Atlas: It is concerning though. > > Andrew Dolganow: Do not delay. > > Greg Shepherd: I agree > > Toerless Eckert: I don't want to hold either. Implementers should check > this ! > > > draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 by Jeffrey Zhang: > > Greg Shepherd: Who read the draft ? --> 6 to 8 hands up > > Status Update from Chair: > > Greg Shepherd: Operation considerations. There will be an operational doc > out of the group. > > Greg Shepherd: Call for document shepherds for WGLC docs. > > Alia Atlas: Sheparding doc requires reading the document. It is cool to > discover IETF process. It is helpful to show interest. > > Ethertype for BIER: > > Alia Atlas: We need encap draft. Tony said there is a draft about encap > and header format. Since MPLS is going to be deployed soon, and there > is no strong request for Ethernet, we can wait for IEEE and MPLS code to > happen first. > > Justification Draft: Greg and Andrew will begin the work. > > Adjourn. > --001a1145ee9c8e75b50555b54d07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Minutes updated from feedback:

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Greg Sh= epherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
Please read and review the minutes below, and provide feedbac= k soon so I can post them this week. Thanks

------= ------
BIER Meeting IETF 99
Minute taker: Pierre Pfiste= r

Note Well:

Agen= da:

BIER PIM Stitching (draft-hfa-bier-pim-tun= neling by Hooman Bidgoli):
<Slide: Multicast state example= >

Greg Shepherd - Where is the edge of the = BIER domain?
Bigdoli Hooman / Andrew Dolganov - P routers only.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tony: Expect n= ew draft version from the authors to clean-up/clarify issues discussed like= non-dependency on MVPN, BiStrting length, SSM-only, making clear what=E2= =80=99s informational vs normative, terminology, etc.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Hooman/Andrew =E2=80=93 yes new version accounting for WG members feedb= ack on the list and during the meeting will be published.=C2=A0

<End of prese= ntation>

draft-zhang-bier-babel-extens= ions-01 by Sandy Zhang:

Greg Shepherd (to Sand= y Zhang): Can you tell us what was the babel WG feedback was ?


Greg Shepherd (to Juliusz Chroboczek): Did = you read the draft ?

Juliusz Chroboczek: I hav= e read the draft.

Greg Shepherd: How does it w= ork in networks with non BIER babel routers ?

= Sandy Zhang: It is working, there is implementation.

Juliusz Chroboczek: babel WG is looking at this draft with interest.= But for now the babel WG is focusing on the core elements of babel. This
=C2=A0document will therefore not be adopted by the babel WG b= efore the babel core specifications are published.


Greg Shepherd: BIER is pretty well cooked in this doc. But = we would like babel to have a better look. This document could live in the = babel WG.


Toerless Eckert: Did = homenet went to mbone to ask for input ?

Pierr= e Pfister: I went to mbone and pim WGs to present homenet and multicast. Th= ey did not care.

Alia Atlas: Babel is the plac= e for this document to be done. Because BIER depends on advertising things.= Babel experts will have to look at it.
=C2=A0The homenet arc= hitecture document only talks about PIM, but BIER applicability could be ev= aluated.

Tim Chown: Babel is the homenet routing p= rotocol. There was some discussion about homenet in the BIER WG at some poi= nt.

Alia: Please have inter-WG discussions on = mailing lists. IETF process also involves other WGs when documents are revi= ewed.


draft-zhangwu-bier-nvo3-<= wbr>analysis-00 by Sandy Zhang:

Tony Przygiend= a: Does multi-homing work ? If there are multiple join ? How to not get rep= licates ?

Sandy Zhang: BMLD does that. Leaf kn= ows about group membership.

Tony Przygienda: W= e are short in time. Continue the dicussion on the mailing list.
<= div>
Toerless Eckert: We should present to NVO3. They don'= ;t need to understand BIER, but they would know the service that they would= get using BIER.

Sandy Zhang: Want to clarify = that the draft is under discussion with people I know which are working on = data-centers.

Alia Atlas: There is an NVO3mcas= t in the publication queue. It went to PIM and mbone for review. Please rev= iew that document in BIER as well.


<= div>
BIER-TE/BIER-TE-FRR by Toerless Eckert: =C2=A0=C2=A0
=

Greg Shepherd (chair-hat-on): When this first cam= e out. There were concerns.

Toerless Eckert: T= hey are addressed. But we didn't renew the call for adoption.
=

Greg Shepherd: Is this work that we should do ?

Yes: Many hands up
No: No hands up
<= /div>

Alia Atlas: If this has hardware impact, do we nee= d to hold off the architecture document ? Should we delay the implementatio= n finalization ?

Greg Shepherd: I think the BI= ER FIB doesn't change.

Toerless Eckert: It= is up to the vendors to decide whether they want to do it or not.

Greg Shepherd: If this changes the architecture, it sh= ould be added to the architecture document.

Al= ia Atlas: It is concerning though.

Andrew Dolg= anow: Do not delay.

Greg Shepherd: I agree
=

Toerless Eckert: I don't want to hold either.= Implementers should check this !


draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 by Jeffrey Zhang:

Greg Shepherd: Who read the draft ? --> 6 to 8 hands up
<= br>
Status Update from Chair:

Greg S= hepherd: Operation considerations. There will be an operational doc out of = the group.

Greg Shepherd: Call for document sh= epherds for WGLC docs.

Alia Atlas: Sheparding = doc requires reading the document. It is cool to discover IETF process. It = is helpful to show interest.

Ethertype for BIE= R:

Alia Atlas: We need encap draft. Tony said = there is a draft about encap and header format. Since MPLS is going to be d= eployed soon, and there
=C2=A0is no strong request for Ethernet, = we can wait for IEEE and MPLS code to happen first.

Justification Draft: Greg and Andrew will begin the work.
<= br>
Adjourn.

--001a1145ee9c8e75b50555b54d07-- From nobody Tue Aug 1 18:59:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8437E129B10 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ecjq_nZXSTbh for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 576DF12942F for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j32so15091259iod.0 for ; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 18:59:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NppeF2olk5+6zTRXeieYoLExVZ0sNswXWUs3fywtrMA=; b=mryQ430kAQAp2pxQpf4sqZJEUQggU8hLZyR598GHLFPsQUiNV5gm16Wn3ytxKokZL/ sGE1GuY8ZlBdXHYKSuiBF/2C2k8u7JuwqRJbq4x5sFyEQJubZ/nipxRGdi8kFl2vJykG d6uo8E/NU1xr9Yl9jhxMHkhZqOkHCslOJeC1flLCWNx+vWmp29h7VmJKg+f7ijCx5jBl I+unxyZPhpDuBRuenYCapSB398Np83bf8Kz98ooagaTf1RARghTa0xuTojeyhIgi1WZC M5nkwbx7F6dRSYchRDFVC/6u5fiTQSSPDXhFk/mjOgHOElKUN8vmPetVINYdqsthq8mI Sg+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=NppeF2olk5+6zTRXeieYoLExVZ0sNswXWUs3fywtrMA=; b=V8CPYeWTOyKyzxYZJuQk42ElLePUCp2sH1wNOyoXuEO85xtBoDnchTCCHZwnV8GzhY E3pu7jbttuw0J3PJfyBGaYbiuWKhRNGI3B2p8qY1ZsThFPW0i5OdkdvII3euFZExQTFK pocGsa+oZfirn0ufYrUP3K0UjITQjSGW6Ifv1R34DCmN7yAaATTTYrfSFITTGLUqc8Uc svOlS/EFFUNjqXA/2rM3pV7rL+jtMDg/ptEWhPWH8x0mrhIOSDHEq2jZ74ML8vDWb+hs fVHTPD4EvTmJPLCC+AYM1Mv0qlcv8MEiDtLzCNygGOOt1mWUXDMZXJbfAvldaOeUo8tb BTQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111sIjQwJTdomlbsd79dezdTJkIiTFED9Ltb9c3/ZwxPWoTq2IFE dbD7umPHUEvZqcVKebiekCPN5LomhApe X-Received: by 10.107.62.212 with SMTP id l203mr23523471ioa.162.1501639172453; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.120.4 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:59:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c06f49a747cb00555bb9d96" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 01:59:34 -0000 --94eb2c06f49a747cb00555bb9d96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against support for WG adoption. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ Thanks, Greg --94eb2c06f49a747cb00555bb9d96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was solid support in the room for=C2=A0draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the l= ist. Please read=C2=A0and respond for or against support for WG adoption.

<= div>ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/

Thanks,<= /div>
Greg
--94eb2c06f49a747cb00555bb9d96-- From nobody Tue Aug 1 19:02:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A8C129B10 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NfVVfxQ4HbW5 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD93812942F for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id v127so17537375itd.0 for ; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=F0PfoP078tD3BHoFiaBDTyDLukWf6KPv6HB12fE7/tA=; b=WwJ8PNSvec2zx1JJ8idZtk9i79mOl50VC2kFd4imuWYoZE2hr9qd28ybQeujkZZgN+ 8xpIeHrmhSW0TXKJlm9v3HF+cGtk90ENFfnWZShTcxq8Rl7AfuKBG8IJH7ZKEebKqynO YR42VlF7Amag6IL7Ytl+85G7R019EGlFN7EVINErBVKUuJ/Fu80FD9MeGMoPa9JCM6cR JSQhhQc3kRHzy0oTYiqZkHFL/wTnecUgo6YbYnTSGaCzu+Qsb7D9EdyoLgMeN/U9KYWP cbcDlVYJ2TFAw/jwwnELZTn5Ut45V4ulWGWuiTLQwuJzsn+Mvd/C5I2xjqTLGylx2cXq RRJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=F0PfoP078tD3BHoFiaBDTyDLukWf6KPv6HB12fE7/tA=; b=rcExwXHjsIjNDUHuh09r6rY0j9FRCcvSAoLMSiLNL0dp2F2gBdAEV9nCBp+u/nr1aJ tsTpy+nsbAcymNQXr9api6uCgJTB97RRF+tIcdOm8PpXsExYd7oBqhmUM/fQWlU/lm2h MC+kAsMYISbVFW3Y2+dkl/MOPGzE5IEglaa/adSmYZWjny2ssYsHgxMJACenNQK7YvXp DMFRhOeu8vDU3oTjpj9eQ04A9Vo3EoZE606jdhmXgErhbK1rHbRE9zrwfxHVo0KIKT+V ig8RR+kRzCeX7p+xVU9n+q+3lRn22GnwfYfH+nEawt9+eyXT6x+0ORKgY/4hpqL82m1M ZGEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111489yYEI/mpqhtM0yS/vrU+ipaMKys/u/mlQF3qJkFjQNw7qSh Xf5xn3/GdIP6Z2WTfe8pX2pDoJpsykYk X-Received: by 10.36.31.72 with SMTP id d69mr4067595itd.78.1501639324069; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.120.4 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145ee9c7df4cf0555bba6e1" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 02:02:06 -0000 --001a1145ee9c7df4cf0555bba6e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this work. So let's get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or against adopting this as a WG document: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ Cheers, Greg --001a1145ee9c7df4cf0555bba6e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this w= ork. So let's get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or = against adopting this as a WG document:


Che= ers,
Greg
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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 19:56:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.145.204 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:55:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:55:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045dbcecd1430b0555bc67b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 02:56:11 -0000 --f403045dbcecd1430b0555bc67b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable clear +1 as co-author --- tony On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against > support for WG adoption. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ > > Thanks, > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --f403045dbcecd1430b0555bc67b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
clear +1 as co-author

--- tony=C2=A0

On Tue, = Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrot= e:
There was solid suppo= rt in the room for=C2=A0draf= t-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please read=C2= =A0and respond for or against support for WG adoption.


Th= anks,
Greg

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




--
=
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards c= ould produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet= , we know that is not true.
= =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1E112F274 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:18:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TjGpimYwQKdF for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (mx03.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.213]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8817126BF3 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [134.2.11.131] (chaos.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.131]) by mx03.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5314678813 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:18:19 +0200 (CEST) To: bier@ietf.org References: From: Michael Menth Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:18:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 08:18:23 -0000 Support (as a coauthor) Michael Am 02.08.2017 um 04:02 schrieb Greg Shepherd: > We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this work. So let's > get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or against > adopting this as a WG document: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ > > Cheers, > Greg > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Wed Aug 2 01:25:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89DA131CF2 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MHxoKEn9kdgw for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67374126BF3 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 01:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [134.2.11.131] (chaos.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.11.131]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE5383E39B for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:25:29 +0200 (CEST) To: bier@ietf.org References: From: Michael Menth Message-ID: <8446ad41-7404-9374-1042-e730028af055@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:25:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 08:25:33 -0000 Support. Michael Am 02.08.2017 um 03:59 schrieb Greg Shepherd: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against > support for WG adoption. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ > > Thanks, > Greg > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Wed Aug 2 06:52:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D1613188F for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2017 06:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rgca1sRgkNBM for ; 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Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:52:21 +0000 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 Thread-Index: AQHTCzMBLskG1MZt+EGt2krnbMnrIqJxFrh6 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:52:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jorge.rabadan@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [40.68.209.210] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5PR07MB1286; 6:xsLjT1TSrK+6cpL3RG0qyhJFIjZSvlmMhu8GFBV2skAPN/q20hc8mylUsLOvHkWjLVifV+C8labhothSN6oH8pNUAEXjmOU9254mw2y2gUSa/vyQp8Ta+8J0tZgMeTRPcyBjfEHdkjXz3b/h5Ja7Cwtq3Ov4FzM4Mcd/0BLOZakfi9va9Woo51NS2ywEkwVu2kj+KLHZy5X6XBcw1XMkc/ZxZkX2QBNohlKVuIUDEC9PjGT1PTsR6cFPUzlIulAPLuKicy4QyU/6TwzkCrIZdbKrnwgiMLjuZCsIWsdrksMPuhOCTmNP9oI49NyllnS+guRR3qvXsUBG/RaZ/PKeVQ==; 5:uRVzGfeHg25VX77S0UOotpyMWy+/f6O7gPB87iZGEzwjQMMrwUq7cPX+z9/sflW0C4ER8oQ05Q5HKL2eM4hwNPkwPY7QU2i+FtzVl1mdd8AGChbD33ieBO8MLsu9/w6I9/owPSrS+3fALjFu6MPrGg==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5PR07MB1286; H:DB5PR07MB0981.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR07MB098123670A27D258DC47B0DEF7B00DB5PR07MB0981eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Aug 2017 13:52:21.0258 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR07MB1286 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2017 13:52:26 -0000 --_000_DB5PR07MB098123670A27D258DC47B0DEF7B00DB5PR07MB0981eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support as coauthor for WG adoption. Thanks, Jorge ________________________________ From: BIER on behalf of Greg Shepherd Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:59:32 PM To: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's= take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against support = for WG adoption. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ Thanks, Greg --_000_DB5PR07MB098123670A27D258DC47B0DEF7B00DB5PR07MB0981eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Support as coauthor for WG adoption.
Thanks,
Jorge

From: BIER <bier-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:59:32 PM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00
 
There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against sup= port for WG adoption.


Thanks,
Greg
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03 Aug 2017 08:35:31 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v738ZUZK021687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 08:35:31 GMT From: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E90D6A5F-6940-46C8-B867-9DD70044BE70" Message-Id: <91DFAF07-A97D-4746-B579-15E18F220D76@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:35:32 +0200 References: To: "bier@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 08:35:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E90D6A5F-6940-46C8-B867-9DD70044BE70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Support! Ice. > On 02 Aug 2017, at 03:59, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so = let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against = support for WG adoption. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ >=20 > Thanks, > Greg > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail=_E90D6A5F-6940-46C8-B867-9DD70044BE70 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0C74A097-1471-4CA9-A140-7FF172466CEF" --Apple-Mail=_0C74A097-1471-4CA9-A140-7FF172466CEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Support!

Ice.

On 02 Aug 2017, at = 03:59, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

There was solid support in the room = for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. = Please read and respond for or against support for WG adoption.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/
Thanks,
Greg
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AKCQAwJINZ/xbLJq1cGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBhSuPKY9MAQEBAQEBBQGBCB6YK4VHhQIUAQIBAQEBAQEBayiFQlY1AiY?= =?us-ascii?q?CXy6KBw2tBoImi08BAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBAQEBAR+BC4IdgweCKisLincwgjEFn?= =?us-ascii?q?32ULZJIkS2EVDYhgQpTJBVbAYJxhBg+igwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,316,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="656536968" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Aug 2017 13:30:26 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v73DUQZU013259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Aug 2017 13:30:26 GMT From: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:30:27 +0200 Message-Id: Cc: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] draft-hfa-bier-pim-tunneling, P-BFER discovery X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 13:30:33 -0000 Hi Hooman, I=E2=80=99ve a comment on the following text: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Section 3.1: The procedure to find the P-BFER (BFER from PIM signaling point of view) can be via 2 mechanism and is beyond the scope of this draft. 1.The P-BFER can be an ABR or ASBR router which is summarizing the route to the source, and as such is the source of this route. 2.The P-BFER can be resolved via SPF calculation and finding the first BFIR in the path the source. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Discovery of the P-BFER is a critical part of the solution that you = should not declare outside the scope an deserves a bit more explanation.=20= With option 1, you can not assume that the P-BFER is summarising the = route to the source. Using the =E2=80=9Csource=E2=80=9D of the route = implicitly as the P-BFER is tricky. I believe the source is mostly used = for informational purposes, not for routing decisions. What happens if = the core is composed of multiple IGP areas, does it still work? I agree = option 1 could work, but it is very restrictive to a particular = deployment. Option 2 seems more generic. I think what you are saying is that using = the full SPF path you select the last BFR on the path as the P-BFER? = Today the routing underlay that BIER uses does not require exposure to = the full SPF path, just the next-hop. Also, this probably does not work = when the core is using multiple IGP areas. Thx, Ice. 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Support. On 8/1/2017 9:59 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or > against support for WG adoption. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ > > Thanks, > Greg > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --------------D38F499F00EE31047D6D6A29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Support.


On 8/1/2017 9:59 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote:
There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against support for WG adoption.


Thanks,
Greg


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--------------D38F499F00EE31047D6D6A29-- From nobody Thu Aug 3 10:46:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7863A132044 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g4JEQ9UWWD_T for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 705BF132035 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x191so11786383qka.5 for ; Thu, 03 Aug 2017 10:46:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jYs6EL8UE4fJ/lgJ/hfaOuOzJTa09c90fEcWjXTcBIE=; b=AIVZ6sYMF8j9lMMJUvW6FJNBMY1nwNaCgXCTSU47ce4OyX1M6vYAd2tu08NIorqMbl fNQt3Gg//8x1WYYNjHu8GbBmrSPJA3P6e8y2Oo8UTUpSG/jHVOQFENaaIYLmXkPbWxga K8UD5HExvufyPrMeNtdWGuGdFbhwcLSXFpIfmmcGvz1nH7eJQAB3i7h8hLP8Kq2Ss10z 7a7UfF13NsvPXgSveNsE6mHbydTnmI6srkMpPHbP6qti0+VYQsaWd/LzNvosPi7zkyFK K1w2fyqRRC5GxD07kscdOsMLMlirCHx1bb2FEIsDlNJ8SSo5Y+KJ+Kk8+hJK3S4hXNqK cYiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jYs6EL8UE4fJ/lgJ/hfaOuOzJTa09c90fEcWjXTcBIE=; b=bgKp8qVDPKIMDSw/5uQFT5kGazlEKelaWnqfGafvVG2tdtUM4Z5R4SalPlek3vVWB6 7Nhv4dEZvefiiyJDFeoVaq8Bdb7/R8RJauEMcoAmDFS/ayOZb08shaCw7egsq+BSOcyd sf1FI92le+kfn8NHAQpQ7ifaTuzbqKU1BrvbhzqzScIW7CtjolT7k53VoBccQGWsll1F Xvfw3FRE0MU6AW+uUdzSZYrRslQMZdDuViq+Zl2MCCijwutcbZm1Qns55YT4hiXCDwO5 gvo92Ygc0K5e40YKtsLEGFjwg30ENOafPSVdSdGJZSIyV/BQTu/mU86jk1Vhi9tSPIVS OhqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jTx8H9Fm9qJXdsWUGLIy/OhzMDdEHneHA4Fge+CetNe744RCT2 Q9AHb/uyTyt7NvaODlssw2eAWNViVA== X-Received: by 10.55.184.71 with SMTP id i68mr3352276qkf.162.1501782408322; Thu, 03 Aug 2017 10:46:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.88.72 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:46:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 10:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c076f66fa640d0555dcf6da" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 17:46:51 -0000 --94eb2c076f66fa640d0555dcf6da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" yes/support adoption Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against > support for WG adoption. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ > > Thanks, > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c076f66fa640d0555dcf6da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes/support adoption

Regards,
Greg

= On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
There was sol= id support in the room for=C2=A0draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please= read=C2=A0and respond for or against support for WG adoption.
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.800000190734863px">

<= div>Thanks,
Greg

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--94eb2c076f66fa640d0555dcf6da-- From nobody Thu Aug 3 18:18:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBB4132035 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 18:18:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GifQk5j42HV4 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 18:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Aug 2017 13:32:47.3098 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB2574 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2017 13:32:54 -0000 Support Hooman -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 4:26 AM To: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 Support. Michael Am 02.08.2017 um 03:59 schrieb Greg Shepherd: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so=20 > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or=20 > against support for WG adoption. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ >=20 > Thanks, > Greg >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Aug 7 14:00:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFE2132033 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:59:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4ZW98gQiBSd for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com (mail-qt0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C86C127058 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id t37so9644431qtg.5 for ; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+0EPgghrqavEplT1KFBV3b39sc+G0Ka4mgfMbhSGw4I=; b=c2EGBJo12hajGVU5NxGIQeSwsInafkm+0K57dHljhpYHQ6xE8HtaZRqHrmMP+tUjx5 XiQVFYtpyEcEnCVWrVJ89NgZztiT6A8dzyC47xv3xmLdVlxNZ6ngLJzje7N4VS7QAGfO VhY8mBz9gTSaD6OvU77s2MPQ07FWFRphs9RwKrEPvSsyh4cDpz94t7zh7XJgZGCma76G ImK8zxZvcPZz0tT4+QQmJuVxyHVGm3QpjqEQiQHjzWuOmesKvHClTytsOfcHN/xMecgY WG8Pv2dCZDTrevixftPzwgwiV0J2gqvI04GwYsDSRyOIxyxR/oDH4eLbXdGN6YUqRAw6 h8/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+0EPgghrqavEplT1KFBV3b39sc+G0Ka4mgfMbhSGw4I=; b=cFi110SbF4oxm7yAq3VOCXM6AyEvegGBmMGYY+0GtbmmVDw37vPsTTIN99IOpmTkwY c1B4iB/DjyIvcZj3hoobNPCO5vXWq9c1/sPvKuGmkP0RMqF9JYb1rxnZnz7/8WtamJHm 0jeM7eG9+4RQ2JJgLRQ/JryIy7YMeajTEKpdHpndGR6t09t7lIwQ3tabSBrY5jIHiwBE yxo4IMFw8gNGKcprTVBD04KXEqZewvfzkJAp8B2P/Fyop0mdAoxhiQETs8Vybv8JyFsZ F0OqRwl/Q52TqM0ssEWrBTUD5104Pnla8KowGqyhU46PZX0cPa5hSqh1WJeBYOIljriZ qn6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5ini4sS3tWZaxn1ktBRz+hRBnD3JCaxoaQz7HlrfL4LXctgbRrp US3b3o2q9c4uGVtcXGQcNWsaf1vimA== X-Received: by 10.237.36.6 with SMTP id r6mr2763425qtc.159.1502139595356; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.88.72 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:59:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113bbf52fc005905563020b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 20:59:59 -0000 --001a113bbf52fc005905563020b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear WG Chairs, Authors, et.al, when I read a draft brought to a WG adoption call I try to answer these three questions: 1. Is the draft reasonably well written? 2. Does the problem the draft addresses closes technological and/or functional gap? 3. Is the proposed solution viable, technically sound? I found the both drafts very well written. I believe that what being proposed by BIER-TE already can be achieved by overlaying BIER domain over traffic engineered, RSVP-TE, PCE or Segment Routing, transport network. And that transport network can be sufficiently resilient through use of RSVP-TE local protection (RFC 4090), end-to-end protection of recovery schemes, including 1+1, m:n, and shared mesh protection. For the #3, I agree, that the proposed solution is viable but I cannot see why it is needed when the same result, multicast distribution over traffic engineered tree, can already be achieved. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this work. So let's > get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or against adopting > this as a WG document: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ > > Cheers, > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a113bbf52fc005905563020b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG Chairs, Authors, et.al,
when I read a draft brought to a WG adoption call I try to answer th= ese three questions:
  1. Is the draft reasonably well written= ?
  2. Does the problem the draft addresses closes technological and/or = functional gap?
  3. Is the proposed solution viable, technically sound?=
I found the both drafts very well written.
I= believe that what being proposed by BIER-TE already can be achieved by ove= rlaying BIER domain over traffic engineered, RSVP-TE, PCE or Segment Routin= g, transport network. And that transport network can be sufficiently resili= ent through use of RSVP-TE local protection (RFC 4090), =C2=A0end-to-end pr= otection of recovery schemes, including 1+1, m:n, and shared mesh protectio= n.=C2=A0
For the #3, I agree, that the proposed solution is viabl= e but I cannot see why it is needed when the same result, multicast distrib= ution over traffic engineered tree, can already be achieved.

=
Regards,
Greg
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Greg Shepherd = <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this wo= rk. So let's get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or a= gainst adopting this as a WG document:


--001a113bbf52fc005905563020b2-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 08:27:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813A8132337 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:27:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mNrbRAS9o97t for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DE74132324 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=922; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502206047; x=1503415647; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id: cc:to:mime-version; bh=OL9Mp9wmYM/SzP5cBpFdoWPCNparjIaxHjcK82rCiI4=; b=kw9CMJVvssqzS5Xhcde9NR/7V6ttHH88p7cUBiYXgD4ozP11LkClb2FZ 8BL7h7lhSclD4J1b/VB5yXnA8G2194riRDR/trfA8tGDZOkmpM+h0se5f S6qRCoJTECmAHVLSkx3tmat8H/qTmfJSwHRWQgoDnRF6a8eeYRkYD2JGX 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A0AgCf14lZ/xbLJq1cGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBhSuPKY9MAQEBAQEBBQEFgQMekT+GbIVHhTQUAQIBAQEBAQEBayiFQlY?= =?us-ascii?q?tCAImAksUijUNrDmCJotRAQEBAQEBBAEBAQEBAQEBAR+BC4EndoMHgiorC4p3M?= =?us-ascii?q?IIxBYcvmGeOdoVAkk+RNoRVNiGBClMkFVsBgnGEGD6KQQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,343,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="656642612" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 08 Aug 2017 15:27:23 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v78FRMZ2006600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Aug 2017 15:27:23 GMT From: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:27:32 +0200 Message-Id: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> Cc: Pierre Pfister To: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 15:27:29 -0000 Hi Folks, Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the = BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a = property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not = restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with = in the future. I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for = MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I = don=E2=80=99t want to change this. What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the = encapsulation draft: "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D Comments? Thx, Ice. From nobody Tue Aug 8 08:39:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77991326EE for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:39:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o03rjCzDlyjV for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 810B813242A for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9E758C4C1; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 55521B0C817; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:39:50 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170808153950.GB20171@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Compare BIER-TE (was: Re: Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 15:39:58 -0000 [ Sorry for long response. Greg brings up an aspect that we had long discussions about outside the IETF and for which we could not find so far a good place to document or discuss in the IETF. ] Hi Greg Can you point to any documents describing the solutions you suggest ? I am not aware of any IETF drafted descriptions. Discussing your points: 1. I am not sure how an RSVP-TE (RFC3209) solution could work. If you mean an RSVP-TE/P2MP (RFC4857) based solution: - BIER-TE like BIER is meant to be more lightweight, it does not have tree state in the network. For example, different BIER-TE bitstrings can deliver traffic over paths not used by existing bitstrings without the need to signal and the need for new state for such bitstrings. In RSVP-TE/P2MP, using any such paths would require new signaling=load=delay=tracking amount of total state across trees in the network. - AFAIK, RSVP-TE/MP2MP was not worked out as an RFC (due to complexity), so one needs to be aware that you need the more state the more BFIR (ingres routers) you want to support. Aka: one RSVP-TE/P2MP tree per BFIR. No ability to share a common MP2MP tree. There is no such limitation and scale issue in BIER and BIER-TE. - Integrating RSVP-TE/P2MP with BIER would IMHO require additional extensions to RSVP-TE/P2MP: For example, you would signal for each leaf a bit index, and then the LSRs could calculate which bitset to send to which branch. - In summary: If you like RSVP-TE/P2MP adnd you just need a way to have an option of determining on a per-packet basis which subset of leaf LSR of an existing tree this backet needs to be delivered, then yes. That can be done. But thats a fundamentally different solution approach from what BIER-TE is supporting. 2. Using SR: The goal of BIER-TE was to come up with an equivalent lightweight solution compared to RSVP-TE/P2MP as SR is in relationship to RSVP-TE/P2P. Aka: BIER-TE is meant to be the best BIER multicast style equivalent to SR. And this search for simplicity was not based on "Must be BIER". Instead, using bitstrings and calling it BIER-TE just resulted from a broader look at the solution space: The "natural" approach to creating a multicast equivalent to SR would have been to create a label stack that included all replicating and leaf LSR as well as the sequencing of those LSR (aka: the whole tree graph). As it turns out, if you want to do this, you end up trying to compress this description more and more - creating really hard to look up and process compressed label-tree stacks... to finally arrive at the conclusion that its all either too complex to parse or does not scale to enough nodes - until you finally come to the conclusion that individual bits for repplication and receiver nodes is about the best solution both for processing simplicity and scale. And that in result makes it a BIER style solution because it shares a most in forwarding and architecture details with BIER. 3. You can of course explicitly configure multipoint trees with label swap and replicate if you do have some controller system and label forwarding programmability with replication (last time i looked i could not find replication in IETF drafts, but it should obviously be there.). The way i understand it, this approach has been demonstrated by a vendor and called "spray multicast". If i where to characterize it: - There will be like with RSVP-TE per-tree state ("labels") in the network, every new tree, receiver(branch) change, path change requires signaling. The state in the forwarding plane would be pretty similar to RSVP-TE/P2MP (in terms of labels). - Because the forwarding state would (from my best guess) be most likely equivalent to RSVP-TE/P2MP with loose EROs, this is (IMHO) really NOT a solution what i thought to understand to be in the spirit of SR: simplify/remove state and signaling from the network by making it source label stack driven: In fact, as explained above, i could rather call BIER-TE "SR-P2MP with maximum compressed labels" because it really is in this respect a multicast equivalent of to the spirit of unicast SR. - Now, one needs to understand that the fact that this solution does not take the signaling out of the network but instead moves it from the ingres LSR to a controller has some key implications: - In RSVP-TE, re-computation happens in parallel on ingres LSR. In the "SR" solution it likely would be all in the controller. The signaling then would have also a different RTT profile than coming from all the ingres LSR. - On the good side, with this approach it would be quite easy to construct MP2MP trees, something that was difficult (and AFAIK therefore not standardized in RSVP-TE). 4. I am not aware what a "PCE" solution without the above mentioned RSVP-TE/P2MP or "Label-programmed-trees(SR)" would be. In my understanding, a PCE is optional with RSVP-TE/P2MP but would be pretty much the mandatory piece in the "label-programmed-trees(SR)" approach as it is in BIER-TE (unless you want to manually configure label P2MP-PVCs, something i've stopped doing when i quit using X.25 23 years ago ;-). 5. The BIER-TE FRR draft attempts to address the comparisons of the different resilience solutions with BIER-TE. Of course, resilience could also be added to BIER. I would be happy to help getting that documented if the WG has interest. It seems you might be interested in that ? I am not clear whether it should be in a different document from BIER-TE-FRR or if we rather should expand the scope of BIER-TE-FRR to BIER-(TE)-FRR to avoid duplication of description of common approaches (like using RFC4090). I think a single document could be more comprehensive in relating/comparing the properties of the different options. Would you be interested in co-authoring either approach ? So, in summary: - Thanks for bringing up the thought of comparing with other solution approaches. - I hope my reply shows and explains the unique nature of BIER-TE in comparison to other (AFAIK not documented) possible alternatives and the value it can bring to deployments interested in the simplicy of BIER but with TE features in the spirit of SR. - I would be happy about any advice how to better document comparisons both of the multipoint solutions ass well as redundancy options. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 01:59:54PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear WG Chairs, Authors, et.al, > when I read a draft brought to a WG adoption call I try to answer these > three questions: > > 1. Is the draft reasonably well written? > 2. Does the problem the draft addresses closes technological and/or > functional gap? > 3. Is the proposed solution viable, technically sound? > > I found the both drafts very well written. > I believe that what being proposed by BIER-TE already can be achieved by > overlaying BIER domain over traffic engineered, RSVP-TE, PCE or Segment > Routing, transport network. And that transport network can be sufficiently > resilient through use of RSVP-TE local protection (RFC 4090), end-to-end > protection of recovery schemes, including 1+1, m:n, and shared mesh > protection. > For the #3, I agree, that the proposed solution is viable but I cannot see > why it is needed when the same result, multicast distribution over traffic > engineered tree, can already be achieved. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > > We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this work. So let's > > get a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or against adopting > > this as a WG document: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ > > > > Cheers, > > Greg From nobody Tue Aug 8 10:09:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45C313267B for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXCw4kBRcGeI for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4C40132672 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78CB58C4BC; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:08:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 985CAB0C816; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:08:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:08:59 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Cc: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 17:09:06 -0000 sorry, clearing up backlog... Good question, I am not sure if or how much i elaborated on BIER-TE controller strategies for bit assignments on the list. And that this could even be a question in BIER. I didn't want to put this all into the BIER-TE draft for matter of size, and consistency: For most parts i think in unicast TE a lot of strategies on PCE controllers are equally not documented because they are not needed for standardization - for better or worse. I am open to any suggestions of how to document this if at all. A simple strategy is like this: consider that you have a large network with a core and a bunch of regions on the edge. You could assign to each region only BFR-IDs with the same SI (or subdomain for that matter). When you then need to replicate from some region, you would need to send one copy per SI or subdomain. If you do not want to have all those SI/subdomains on all possible BFIRs, you could look into using another unicast MPLS label (eg: SR based) that would get you to the edge-router into a particular area. Otherwise you'd have one remote adjacency bit for each SI/subdomain that would do the same thing. And if you want to get more fancy about TE, you would have bits for multiple redundant ingres area exit routers and exit-area-ingres-routers to steer the traffic with load-splitting. I mentioned how this could btw. equally be a question for BIER: If you had such a large multi-are network and you would randomnly assign BFR-IDs to BFERs and end up having in one region BFER with different SI's, then you would also need to send per-SI copies into that region, which would not be traffic-optimal. Aka: You would also like to assign BFR-ID in SI groups in topological vicnity to maximize the replication efficiency in BIER if you have such large networks. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 02, 2017 at 11:39:07AM +0800, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn wrote: > Hi,athors of BIER-TE > > I have a comment on BIRE-TE. > > > BitPositions are assigned to adjacencies in the BIER-TE architecture instead of BFER in BIER, so it is necessary to have SI in the BIER-TE domain to reduce the Bitstring length. The issues is that if the transmit adjacency for a BIER-node doesn't have the given SI value for a BIER-TE packet(the BitString in BIER encapsulation is related to SubDomain,BSL and SI combination), the BIER-TE packet may be dropped in that BIER-node. > > The BIER-TE packet(SI =1 ) will be dropped in the BFR2 in the following figure, for there is no SI=1 entry in the BFR2 BIFT table. How to solve it? Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > Regards. > > Fangwei. > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Aug 8 10:11:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF52132806 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:11:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sgc6xuBOCzkU for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E9C5132805 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55C58C4BC; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 8439CB0C816; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:11:04 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Alia Atlas Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170808171104.GA25383@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] forwarding plane changes for BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 17:11:10 -0000 Definitely, will put it soon into an update. On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 03:11:56PM -0400, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Toerless, > > As I mentioned in the BIER WG meeting, it would be very helpful to have a > clear and up-front section for the BIER-TE draft that clearly explains the > needed impact and changes for BIER-TE. > > As we are working on finishing up the encapsulation draft, this would be > useful for those looking at hardware implementations and what changes might > be interesting in the future. > > Thanks, > Alia > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Aug 8 11:49:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01ED7132221 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a0oeBlYbG8qE for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5B5E131CD5 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:49:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1833; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502218180; x=1503427780; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Xb2ziM0e0n/8ebHjTpPqVsFQUVEIptPnCqUhjicAFhY=; b=e3ik53nGr5stqZfSEik+AG9ZF3JRCTXBNjxhU5AO8SpV+ijjrOhHCpNp 3WeGDZWiJjFCA2A6IIjrrVwy1w+1bxndRtdHxCNF88Kyzi8iZgLs5XN4o S3vsr7y+Bs3bTz3DRiJLM22pWYn6iV8AGFVJiF8p6zhHJgXf2q5P5wO8B g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BCBABxBopZ/xbLJq1cGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBhSuPKY9MAQEBAQEBBQGBJgEDmCeFRwKFMhQBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUZAQQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BI1YFCwsODAImAgJXBoo1BQisdoImi1ABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEdg?= =?us-ascii?q?QuCHYMHgikBK4J8hFccgxMwgjEBBKAWiyWJEZJPkTaEVTYhP0tTJBVbAYJxhBg?= =?us-ascii?q?+iisBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,344,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="696370194" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 08 Aug 2017 18:49:35 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v78InZRP006500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Aug 2017 18:49:35 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 20:49:44 +0200 Cc: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn, bier@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 18:49:42 -0000 Hi, > I mentioned how this could btw. equally be a question for BIER: If you = had such > a large multi-are network and you would randomnly assign BFR-IDs to = BFERs and end > up having in one region BFER with different SI's, then you would also = need to=20 > send per-SI copies into that region, which would not be = traffic-optimal. Aka: > You would also like to assign BFR-ID in SI groups in topological = vicnity to maximize > the replication efficiency in BIER if you have such large networks. The big difference with BIER is that when using multiple SI=E2=80=99s, = the forwarding tables for each SI are build throughout the whole = network. So there is never a problem that BIER packets get stuck because = there is no BIFT for a particular SI. I agree it might be more efficient = if BFER=E2=80=99s within an SI are co-located to have a more efficient = forwarding, but its not a requirement to avoid packet loss. IMO, the concept of SI does not apply to BIER-TE in order to scale up. = One can create multiple =E2=80=9Cdomains=E2=80=9D of BFR=E2=80=99s that = use bits out of the same BitString (like sub-domains), but these domains = act completely independently (like Segmented Inter-AS scenario).=20 The power of BIER-TE is that one can traffic engineer on a per packet = basis without creating state in the network. Unfortunately, the scope is = small.=20 If traffic engineering on a bigger scale is needed, it may not be = required to do it on a per flow basis but rather on a topology. This can = be done with normal BIER and different topologies (sub-domains) created = BIFT=E2=80=99s. Maybe this is similar to what Greg Mirsky was saying on = the other thread, but I don=E2=80=99t think we would run BIER over = RSVP-TE. We run it over different topologies. Thx, Ice. From nobody Tue Aug 8 12:01:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6C213288F for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:01:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7rYFnMPDS2j for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62FB1132A26 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id m85so14347042wma.1 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rva6FIrEweNqP03rC8qTTmPWR9xxtfNMSjx0zkAjeZw=; b=IjaGeSNyeSponBMWkqnY8+XPOLW9/T1m4L3AzWzhXMeTo6joaryra4q6CkS8m4Vd48 O0dugkFd4Z1BemW+MhU+95l7i+WgN5UWHyDU87JQ4rzZC2qhFe0I7HQejxOP0JvCgkJ3 SQ313HGKmhsoHCGa66voceu25FD0HVkuX14dsgCHS5CbNuEOxju5t3pXzK5wBvzyM4YE zY/SmXJ4PJiwnDLfolxx62xOIzv2lXppgBlO15zwcpiHABSDDYt1WKYxW23bkhcOOk0x 10Y5TrNfy8LexthLS4BwFz1RELZ0isppXk+eRaAQ1eLTKLwfmFrN5865NP4aCn7wjz5D RxbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rva6FIrEweNqP03rC8qTTmPWR9xxtfNMSjx0zkAjeZw=; b=rE14y3ddS+/I4IVGgcZuftsz2h7I8KApNymjwewZbcnWBTwBrXiu5cJlTII1OvWwfu aeiAjJ6OwWudDmcm3kSzl0Cw9LSnrgqadEaSeUm9ARvVBupOvksDMOJ2CtkybKgwUSwG eh8rxsmvGY3EbBQ4YwhVyjSktrhwZ2X2XWHyrIPOjaYR9GNM3LqEUFmSS8o0kf6fUHUD ZsdR/McGJPfGC7JdYhRN6ad9nWvGDajNN6PbdHsDu/ATPgr2tI7RThr+JcRHGeSWoNZh DoVHYJtF4a9l3zicpo3ZQ5ne3JxWlmEb3XGSimqC8YAS4u5BjEkkvMKx7W/I0uHsPriS 7jfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hdTZmm1gvs10j+bipTxAgLd1B1xTeDSA9lGg7f35q4Smtmeqpa qZFgwbGZreFmdTdBfuO9vUqVjGsArw== X-Received: by 10.80.179.235 with SMTP id t40mr5670427edd.62.1502218857940; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 12:00:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.145.204 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:00:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0deda46709c705564295b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 19:01:14 -0000 --94eb2c0deda46709c705564295b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would apply to both MPLS and ether encaps. Correct? --- tony On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the > BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a > property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I > agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict > alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the > future. > > I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS= and > non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80= =99t want > to change this. > > What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the > encapsulation draft: > > "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition > BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being > provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D > > > Comments? > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --94eb2c0deda46709c705564295b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That would apply to both MPLS and ether encaps. Correct?= =C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM, IJsbrand= Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alterna= tive BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



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--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou= ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, = we know that is not true.=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky<= br>
--94eb2c0deda46709c705564295b9-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 12:35:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70331326B9 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:34:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FhrGDXIvDFcS for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFF081326B4 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4903; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502220895; x=1503430495; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=/oDC5jcIXICl2ENF6ARomX68UyDbqUkiMNbeIG4KMbE=; b=JZFdceh+4C0ws+sdepq/wULvgrmNCtU34K0uSA52vjSHQyo/FJUvoIUV 2xOqvJL57uArGVtk1BJjlJ15gSjzYfKYWDMR4IEbAl+34PGR86ODVfuXV SuLoGOHdWV9lFEhY8iApy8IbTVuiGUemw8evZacoikKDJw3dhaED/YwjU 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DaAQDiEYpZ/4YNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgm9rZG0njg+QBzgBAQEBAQEFAYEmAYg5iCxZhFqCEiEBCoUbAoR?= =?us-ascii?q?vPxgBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUZAgEDAQFsCxACAQgEDi0HIQYLFAMOAgQOBYlLTAMID?= =?us-ascii?q?RCufocyDYQRAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGAWCMnaCAoEFgiorgnyCV4V?= =?us-ascii?q?fgjEFhy+YKzwCjnRMhHSST4wtiV0BHziBCncVSRIBhEuCPHaJdQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,344,1498521600"; d="scan'208,217";a="468494554" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Aug 2017 19:34:54 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v78JYsPp028395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:34:54 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:34:54 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:34:53 -0500 From: "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" To: Tony Przygienda CC: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister Thread-Topic: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 Thread-Index: AQHTEFrdiMtqbBjq90GPeWoDbdV27qJ7JEGA//+12gg= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B9D9C8A12CC041F6A96A813994DA075Cciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 19:34:58 -0000 --_000_B9D9C8A12CC041F6A96A813994DA075Cciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct! So nothing really changes for MPLS and ether encaps. Sent from my iPhone On 8 Aug 2017, at 21:01, Tony Przygienda > wrote: That would apply to both MPLS and ether encaps. Correct? --- tony On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > wrote: Hi Folks, Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a property of= the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with = that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative = BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future. I'm very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS and non-M= PLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don't want to cha= nge this. What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft: "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256." Comments? Thx, Ice. _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true. -Robert Wilensky --_000_B9D9C8A12CC041F6A96A813994DA075Cciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correct! So nothing really changes for MPLS and ether encaps.

Sent from my iPhone

On 8 Aug 2017, at 21:01, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

That would apply to both MPLS and ether encaps. Correct?&n= bsp;

--- tony 

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnand= s <ice@cisco.com>= ; wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we = may want to come up with in the future.

I’m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS and= non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= 217;t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition    BitStringLength of 256.  Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
   provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.”<= br>

Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--
We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou= ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, = we know that is not true.—Robert Wilensky
--_000_B9D9C8A12CC041F6A96A813994DA075Cciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 13:01:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36421325D5 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXyQP8CVbEic for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66A8D1325B1 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t201so15608812wmt.0 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7Uvp/T5LOD4UFuh8TkncgSD/AuvD8vC3KXOmSMJTlmo=; b=aj7PLLDNj2bDrDuMSEaCJsK3vktdan+LCatWBNMHxo3lHucaoZ8cTJjF+F7c/1OX/k azlC51GbksnxIkeGL5Lfoh2rgNSZLT/GXToJOiQvWgIX77vrhodtkW9zhbFTRZozoX/e yNGGfH4a0XMEeSJaGev/59cm3OhL4SpdHkqnUbrxzOe3GmxsAKlch/sMBkh8Bq+2kYiO yF4adESObhhjSx117E0VcKpc/aPmY166RswzJJ6Wq6UEERgp1F9IYDw9qPNlGO2tdyTC vEZ4cVdtzzfpl3ZnA54T9rMnvhMxhyBWLQWttv98nwbY4NN9HfNW8UOVURoLxpBbi0Hu e2PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7Uvp/T5LOD4UFuh8TkncgSD/AuvD8vC3KXOmSMJTlmo=; b=UARcHS6JHEsyUpexcQ1gIvIdBYEmcI76h93ax3WMb5SiZgEw11xjerr7xEWGsvOjsf 0lr0pJIBFsJt7VPHaXX4PFZHkHrFoKLlB8y6T+5XPw6NkZzvAl/cAozhmInEOc2yMz6S cFYoHOWS4JNSKcmmlik3KeZ/94DPnpn1qhhskTSGkoUpaW7NvrKWgIObtr325gt6SIMG o8VHIjqkDz76JURygbARI22I40sjIIjOIZDMHWwY3/4ovuOKvxDDZPr2xLUTScTvObnl 9WCBnGRb9LyLdH8UEc4uvS6tOG/jzyuIEYjUk30xO5vL4+dxfG2bijIqi9cPZaHaEPtu Pu4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j8NZcJ7eq43Q4jHUATGfbpTXgFhsPAkMkdpSAPLd9mbg3kdngy G+X9cVkJmZUPkEz3/FjoijF3YwJX1A== X-Received: by 10.28.63.13 with SMTP id m13mr3313826wma.63.1502222444778; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:00:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.154.108 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:00:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 16:00:44 -0400 Message-ID: To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b741831dacd0556436b0f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 20:01:04 -0000 --001a114b741831dacd0556436b0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ice, It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change. The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the same time - and then back to the IESG. Regards, Alia On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the > BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a > property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I > agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict > alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the > future. > > I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS= and > non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80= =99t want > to change this. > > What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the > encapsulation draft: > > "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition > BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being > provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D > > > Comments? > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --001a114b741831dacd0556436b0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ice,

It's rather a bit late for thi= s - unless it is a truly critical change.
The draft has completed= WGLC and IETF LC and gone through
the IESG where it has just one= main issue to handle.

I would like to understand = whether there is WG consensus to
bring the draft back to the WG t= o deal with this.=C2=A0 Yes, it could
be a fairly fast process - = with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the=C2=A0
same time - and t= hen back to the IESG.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Au= g 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:<= br>
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alterna= tive BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--001a114b741831dacd0556436b0f-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 13:19:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8051C132614 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCgjykgkAsBL for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22b.google.com (mail-it0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AD32132604 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 77so9979494itj.1 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:18:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=4pKr8ASkKAiDvc1ay3t8ISCg744YQ1+eNIC+AIuuSVI=; b=KaKGcOIagZHVs11xmFk+z69WILmoA3lZhzIRO36AFN6/RCfiMoczHQ9HldbjGFP61L TuNVJ+qFLMFIvFRuwK3aBI1QEE2/6mBMgpcj3E2NAcRDWocKRTCm9rjrFW0n8qEBf6ay T/jsJGIlJiGm4ffclyobRwtQtSa6QNb4PSn4BbJKqWPBzYgz2CEqFUSlOOp60+GIv15/ 2+lJ7JEcMGTT/QhKsIZqPrHoq4B1aItKRCiuXci1hykrK2qA1nkblaE/07/4ZT4++Aml a0qhAjM2vF3+dO6KpNqKHjTmm+fyVQv3ASQFbZ8qlp3DqX9RvROoGpJHRVMxjms0CFN8 l/Vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4pKr8ASkKAiDvc1ay3t8ISCg744YQ1+eNIC+AIuuSVI=; b=VFyzALzuw9WVil4Ws5UcNXXqROfD3nDERy084zGvvb3tTSF9SEq1r5j4dFnEwtBRVe B5AVR4vWjNUrStknJLO+LgtRERwyWnnWxwFnO4huSMxXkLwAIPj1g8x2O5k5RbgOJzES 8pSpG43uE7v2B6bycRLXLFbm/KT9TbSTF4jS3RBg3IeNtuzZw/kV4G/Ds2IF9goEIvi/ jWMWQYRsi8+YvL0AIKRp/Y/zh3hpwBCW8uKMS5dY9PoNrg0waWxTr24szJaC67fxwSmf bJnHfmRuRCXgNJKvLYF8LQBXis7OuIl9UMqymmOCpspmd5Me0dVTd50uFmuRiW4U0YZw k/GQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110okjkXZJJq8EXm8LH6TS85BZL1HCKABE5qz84/ru8zGwgoadpx AbIrP7z4EinM8vIAwHdobIwMYOnPCQ== X-Received: by 10.36.123.86 with SMTP id q83mr4932025itc.90.1502223537740; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:18:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.120.4 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alia Atlas Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11473e42572278055643ac4f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 20:19:00 -0000 --001a11473e42572278055643ac4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe specifying encap requirements in the arch draft was miss-placed. But it didn't seem so until we had an encapsulation proposal that could not support the arch specified req of 256bits. I believe it is worth the rev, re-LC. I'll send out an email solicitation to the list. Greg On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Ice, > > It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change. > The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through > the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. > > I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to > bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could > be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the > same time - and then back to the IESG. > > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> >> Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the >> BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a >> property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture.= I >> agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restric= t >> alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the >> future. >> >> I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPL= S and >> non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80= =99t >> want to change this. >> >> What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the >> encapsulation draft: >> >> "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition >> BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being >> provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> Comments? >> >> Thx, >> >> Ice. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a11473e42572278055643ac4f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe specifying encap requirements in the arch draft = was miss-placed. But it didn't seem so until we had an encapsulation pr= oposal that could not support the arch specified req of 256bits.

I believe it is worth the rev, re-LC. I'll send out an email s= olicitation to the list.

Greg

<= /div>

= On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
Ice,

<= /div>
It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critic= al change.
The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone thro= ugh
the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle.

I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus t= o
bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this.=C2=A0 Yes, it= could
be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF= LC at the=C2=A0
same time - and then back to the IESG.

Regards,
Alia

O= n Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alterna= tive BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--001a11473e42572278055643ac4f-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 13:21:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBFA13267E for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X81_6WlStCh0 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CF6713266E for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id c24so11280415wra.1 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Hm8HG+fKR1JAW2EnjhLIcXYYqkfrsKAb28HfH5L0qeg=; b=cWULkXMMMdX9RLMUsNIXwK23fqBMKAQHaR6oHnWPMIEdEXvj4hhjnHtGps5QsrgYUE ohxbrIuLnvch6OU2AgddvcdR740QeAFL83u818olnUSfuaa8KI4YZdloGuu9t3fax4FR ew+D6ymvvFc7QRIfdopB3O9bummV5rKhZ3GY3I4htqYSYdMhUSL+9/VfqXGT6jJRLw+k b/O2ySQkbo7OIG0Dg8Djvdv/eXVFKj83973K5VtRncNM6ft5ZEdcpZ3okMovGBlb9r8D K8KKTBTKzeq19iQGcMAjzs+ewaaVV3RieHvbHuoTqGVFQ6VtFmrejLTp9mbC8gGEke+S v7dA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Hm8HG+fKR1JAW2EnjhLIcXYYqkfrsKAb28HfH5L0qeg=; b=EUeCpRfmMB4Z5Vj9WVDWswuhpGqJyJ0nAz7grBu+K0sZpaDik7AjxIjzz+Jm9k/+gX JcKpdU1gfNs/OCxWjIFtvMLSNYMIUz11BrfT3mIEa9Stvo4k0wW/vlStRQW9k/QsRfLT qHlJbZSWsKn7S49kcpq5fRsFK0cNviXVTJuYMXaR6dLYi4ldPlmi4nXyGAR8FqVc9YOg yMW6i6hOJvjiK89aG5eYhXTZIPWIXeiHLteqFNGFklz0U7QfyH/E1AiVjvNUkq/5cCUc Jyc+BqIrU9iLrz8dDt8oqriOC31iK6VGNaKTtfV3LyzI/f/nwl+kPzxIZMFQjTMztht1 JoQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jm0LAZLFK/tHXoeWD0XagwJe8SJJIJNt56PRNztwVbv0BVsJ64 +w04d967GeGeumbLSxypQNlwPIQhuw== X-Received: by 10.223.149.65 with SMTP id 59mr3570320wrs.292.1502223673020; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.154.108 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:21:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 16:21:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d9b08675ab8055643b455" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 20:21:21 -0000 --94eb2c0d9b08675ab8055643b455 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > I believe specifying encap requirements in the arch draft was miss-placed= . > But it didn't seem so until we had an encapsulation proposal that could n= ot > support the arch specified req of 256bits. > > I believe it is worth the rev, re-LC. I'll send out an email solicitation > to the list. > I can see how it is problematic for some of the proposals around an IPv6 encapsulation. On the other hand, it is also making a statement about what a reasonable trade-off is for size of multicast traffic receivers. Let's see what the WG thinks. Regards, Alia Greg > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > >> Ice, >> >> It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change. >> The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through >> the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. >> >> I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to >> bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could >> be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the >> same time - and then back to the IESG. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> >> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote= : >> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the >>> BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a >>> property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture= . I >>> agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restri= ct >>> alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the >>> future. >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MP= LS and >>> non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2= =80=99t >>> want to change this. >>> >>> What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the >>> encapsulation draft: >>> >>> "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition >>> BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being >>> provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> Comments? >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> Ice. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --94eb2c0d9b08675ab8055643b455 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Aug 8, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> = wrote:
I believe specify= ing encap requirements in the arch draft was miss-placed. But it didn't= seem so until we had an encapsulation proposal that could not support the = arch specified req of 256bits.

I believe it is worth the= rev, re-LC. I'll send out an email solicitation to the list.

I can see how it is problematic for some= of the proposals around an IPv6 encapsulation.
On the other hand= , it is also making a statement about what a reasonable trade-off is for
size of multicast traffic receivers.
=C2=A0
Let= 's see what the WG thinks.

Regards,
= Alia

Greg
<= br>
=

On Tue, Aug 8, 20= 17 at 1:00 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
Ice,

It'= s rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change.
<= div>The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through
the= IESG where it has just one main issue to handle.

= I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to
bring= the draft back to the WG to deal with this.=C2=A0 Yes, it could
= be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the=C2=A0<= /div>
same time - and then back to the IESG.

R= egards,
Alia

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnand= s <= ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Fo= lks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alterna= tive BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--94eb2c0d9b08675ab8055643b455-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 13:23:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB7C1323BF for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mk5jFmRkQcs3 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2AC1326E2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o9so18107014iod.1 for ; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=iP8W7TG6QMXfYiW1//5KJf73SHh9RZez7BbXxu3dIj0=; b=ge5/6GbUVQvFMGdR9dihnQfTETWICBilAOygd+IefrpttXTP6EcmluMtvAC+Z0URYX Vb0tU5UkU3ioSkxVgqCn9ZnkeGPBxZJroGwVtW57zMBZ83JaUyESMzU8XYd/1w8Hpa7v R5XA8D9GObIDqaNLwvVGdoU04K1okG1KlE51dA5wRMAqf+57Y0BM7qHOaZ57r1TEJVDb BZH1t79y52D36Ko4EVRninx4J7xqsr9gHevg6VOVDq6EzqbeRFpYqmv0U0OezifsH3FM bPc/4JNs2UY1fihLOUVyZMnE29fL7pKS9tD7J2oi4OMRDT8yu9xMUcVgrClLwx+ugAk+ tuJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=iP8W7TG6QMXfYiW1//5KJf73SHh9RZez7BbXxu3dIj0=; b=V6oxUH7K1oAv45cZ2ACXBRvOiBeor05nYIDS/5PSHWwf1jt0dLBadeUYNYPwrezRPz bi/DOM1XZmIl18/DzTATo1qvppwpi2+6DNze8WUd0K3+X4quOPnlj8rdFjywjGTBroAT 3qQjLOjhQz2A+RExem/Ty5IqASlWbUFQSjg4/tGiS+WKkWBiLRVypzd9tsyc2dBTqf9I 7h+YygIllingF2OOHTyG2w2esv5YabdJhLS9pGnSWf6BSzDk2Vw3V1pxgELJ4aA/ypJB com3HjUHeH4z+HF6aK7+W4/bmMuErXkHOU81Ly69Tie8UfaN5iLun+Y3sn9AYSRldJjo Ofqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5i1csWXAu2qo0VKyb8D9R/eh2n6SO27dtijuW7aNZkpNsSI4Nt2 LdNAZP+VcjNbh5Nw3rwF1EGm6QDByexp X-Received: by 10.107.52.6 with SMTP id b6mr2148910ioa.162.1502223801654; Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.120.4 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:23:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11462ef21236fb055643bc83" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Rev, and re-LC draft-ietf-bier-architecture? X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 20:23:24 -0000 --001a11462ef21236fb055643bc83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, It has come to our attention that the architecture draft specifies a minimum mask length, which in hind-sight is out of scope for an arch draft and should be part of encapsulation drafts. draft-ietf-bier-architecture has already progressed through WGLC and IETF-LC, so a rev now would restart that cycle. We can do them both in parallel which would only add another two weeks to the publication schedule= . We need to hear from the WG members on which direction to take. Do we move ahead as is and arbitrarily prevent new encaps w/ tighter limits from being proposed, or do we rev and resub LC to fix this issue? Please see the proposed text below in the attached thread. Thanks Greg (Chairs) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: IJsbrand Wijnands Date: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM Subject: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 To: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" Cc: Pierre Pfister Hi Folks, Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future. I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80=99= t want to change this. What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the encapsulation draft: "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D Comments? Thx, Ice. _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --001a11462ef21236fb055643bc83 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

It has come to our attention that = the architecture draft specifies a minimum mask length, which in hind-sight= is out of scope for an arch draft and should be part of encapsulation draf= ts.

draft-ietf-bier-architecture has already progr= essed through WGLC and IETF-LC, so a rev now would restart that cycle. We c= an do them both in parallel which would only add another two weeks to the p= ublication schedule.

We need to hear from the WG m= embers on which direction to take. Do we move ahead as is and arbitrarily p= revent new encaps w/ tighter limits from being proposed, or do we rev and r= esub LC to fix this issue?

Please see the proposed= text below in the attached thread.

Thanks
Greg
(Chairs)=C2=A0

-= --------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM
S= ubject: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07
To: &= quot;BIER (bier@ietf.org)" <bier@ietf.org>
Cc: Pierre Pfister = <pierre.pfister@darou.fr&= gt;


Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alterna= tive BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--001a11462ef21236fb055643bc83-- From nobody Tue Aug 8 14:44:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FC5132499 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCg3_IS5B_ww for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0097.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25565132495 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:44:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=MBzaFHdDeIREpCH3vOWan+Mg4P0n1ls7fzqvbS9cDZk=; b=YTy5jmhQrbjA6zmGZNp3rpJcOqlPxxb2HWQ4uqVA8liaJn5hy9Pw/zXVj0vAn4RFEqgIXi4JZeX/PsHa1nX8xFUBCWkVFK1/KqnkEioRbN/UcZ7Lz4EjHkD5g1HSfcnnF/xaEsgb0QXvhzr9P7S9/q07OR/gTOVjIXoLWbdXJ1g= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=erosen@juniper.net; Received: from [172.29.32.46] (66.129.241.14) by BY2PR05MB2181.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.112.9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.1.1341.9; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:44:16 +0000 To: Alia Atlas , IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> From: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 17:44:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Given that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we should leave it as is. If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can always update the architecture. On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Ice, > > It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change. > The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through > the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. > > I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to > bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could > be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the > same time - and then back to the IESG. > > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in > the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) > is a property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the > architecture. I agree with that POV. The architecture should be > flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we > may want to come up with in the future. > > I’m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS > and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I > don’t want to change this. > > What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture > to the encapsulation draft: > > "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition > BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of > being > provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.” > > > Comments? > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --------------80473011A16B90EF7E5DF0ED Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Given that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we should leave it as is.

If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can always update the architecture. 



On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
Ice,

It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change.
The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through
the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle.

I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to
bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this.  Yes, it could
be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the 
same time - and then back to the IESG.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I’m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don’t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the encapsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition
   BitStringLength of 256.  Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being
   provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.”


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



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We can do WG and IETF LC in parallel. The arch doc needs additional text under operations anyway. > If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum bitstring > length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can always update > the architecture. > I'd rather not kick this down the road. Greg > > On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Ice, > > It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change. > The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through > the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. > > I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to > bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could > be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the > same time - and then back to the IESG. > > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> >> Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the >> BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a >> property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture.= I >> agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restric= t >> alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the >> future. >> >> I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPL= S and >> non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80= =99t >> want to change this. >> >> What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the >> encapsulation draft: >> >> "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition >> BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being >> provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> Comments? >> >> Thx, >> >> Ice. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing listBIER@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c0588049daf9e0556451b45 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Eric C Rosen &= lt;erosen@juniper.n= et> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Given that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we should leave it as is.

As Alia po= inted out, it's not a big deal to correct it now. We can do WG and IETF= LC in parallel. The arch doc needs additional text under operations anyway= .=C2=A0

If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a mi= nimum bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can always update the architecture. =C2=A0

I'd rather not kick this down the road.

Greg<= /div>
=C2=A0

On 8/8/2017 4:00 P= M, Alia Atlas wrote:
=20
Ice,

It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change.
The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through
the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle.

I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to
bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this.=C2=A0 Yes, i= t could
be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the=C2=A0
same time - and then back to the IESG.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined the= m for MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the encapsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER M= UST be capable of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of = 256.=E2=80=9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.or= g
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bie= r



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/bier


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CBC90D4313A54DC9B905D78E6BDD3701nokiacom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Aug 2017 23:05:50.2141 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR0701MB2070 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 23:05:57 -0000 --_000_CBC90D4313A54DC9B905D78E6BDD3701nokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIEVyaWMuIFdlIHNob3VsZCBqdXN0IGxlYXZlIHRoaXMgYXMgaXMgYW5kIGRl 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10.2.21.82 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 16:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <39DA5730-8AC9-4CDA-A8EE-E966CF1F3A94@nokia.com> References: <39DA5730-8AC9-4CDA-A8EE-E966CF1F3A94@nokia.com> From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 16:18:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0b09c4b201600556462e0e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Rev, and re-LC draft-ietf-bier-architecture? X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 23:18:38 -0000 --94eb2c0b09c4b201600556462e0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) < andrew.dolganow@nokia.com> wrote: > Let's not do this change and proceed to issue the drafts that are almost > through the process.=3D > Acknowledged. > We can do with the below change when handling an encapsulation that has > the issue. 256 is not that big for multicast (and many argued in the past > about bringing this down to 128). Let's discuss separately how useful an > encapsulation that cannot handle 256 is and whether it warrants > architecture change. > But that's my point. The mask limit shouldn't be part of the architecture in the first place. Mask size should be in encap drafts only. Greg > If it does, we can augment the architecture as required at that time. > > Andrew > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 8, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > All, > > It has come to our attention that the architecture draft specifies a > minimum mask length, which in hind-sight is out of scope for an arch draf= t > and should be part of encapsulation drafts. > > draft-ietf-bier-architecture has already progressed through WGLC and > IETF-LC, so a rev now would restart that cycle. We can do them both in > parallel which would only add another two weeks to the publication schedu= le. > > We need to hear from the WG members on which direction to take. Do we mov= e > ahead as is and arbitrarily prevent new encaps w/ tighter limits from bei= ng > proposed, or do we rev and resub LC to fix this issue? > > Please see the proposed text below in the attached thread. > > Thanks > Greg > (Chairs) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: IJsbrand Wijnands > Date: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM > Subject: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 > To: "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" > Cc: Pierre Pfister > > > Hi Folks, > > Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the > BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a > property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I > agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict > alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the > future. > > I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS= and > non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80= =99t want > to change this. > > What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the > encapsulation draft: > > "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition > BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of being > provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D > > > Comments? > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c0b09c4b201600556462e0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)= <andrew.dolganow@nokia.com> wrote:
Let's not do this change and proceed to issue the drafts that are = almost through the process.=3D

= Acknowledged.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
We can do with the bel= ow change when handling an encapsulation that has the issue. 256 is not tha= t big for multicast (and many argued in the past about bringing this down t= o 128).=C2=A0 Let's discuss separately how useful an encapsulation that cannot handle 256 is and whether it warrants architecture change.

But that's my point. The mask = limit shouldn't be part of the architecture in the first place. Mask si= ze should be in encap drafts only.

Greg
= =C2=A0
If it does, we can augment the archi= tecture as required at that time.=C2=A0

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

All,

It has come to our attention that the architecture draft specifies a m= inimum mask length, which in hind-sight is out of scope for an arch draft a= nd should be part of encapsulation drafts.

draft-ietf-bier-architecture has already progressed through WGLC and I= ETF-LC, so a rev now would restart that cycle. We can do them both in paral= lel which would only add another two weeks to the publication schedule.

We need to hear from the WG members on which direction to take. Do we = move ahead as is and arbitrarily prevent new encaps w/ tighter limits from = being proposed, or do we rev and resub LC to fix this issue?

Please see the proposed text below in the attached thread.

Thanks
Greg
(Chairs)=C2=A0

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com&g= t;
Date: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 8:27 AM
Subject: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 To: "BIER (bier@iet= f.org)" <bie= r@ietf.org>
Cc: Pierre Pfister <pierre.pfister@darou.fr>


Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER= header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a proper= ty of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree = with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we = may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS a= nd non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don= =E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the enc= apsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitStringLength of 256.=C2=A0 Every BFR and BFER MUST be capab= le of being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80= =9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org<= /span>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 04:04:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Extensions for BIER Authors : Xiaohu Xu Mach Chen Keyur Patel IJsbrand Wijnands Antoni Przygienda Filename : draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-03.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2017-08-08 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is a new multicast forwarding architecture which doesn't require an explicit tree-building protocol and doesn't require intermediate routers to maintain any multicast state. BIER is applicable in a multi-tenant data center network environment for efficient delivery of Broadcast, Unknown-unicast and Multicast (BUM) traffic while eliminating the need for maintaining a huge amount of multicast state in the underlay. This document describes BGP extensions for advertising the BIER-specific information. These extensions are applicable in those multi-tenant data centers where BGP instead of IGP is deployed as an underlay for network reachability advertisement. These extensions may also be applicable in other scenarios. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From SRS0=UTLm=7L=darou.fr=pierre.pfister@bounces.m4x.org Tue Aug 8 23:42:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5493131D27 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 23:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmCaRMxUHFk2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 23:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.polytechnique.org (mx1.polytechnique.org [129.104.30.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38DC31243F6 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2017 23:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.228.32.50] (unknown [173.38.220.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ssl.polytechnique.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35062560790; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:42:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Pierre Pfister Message-Id: <117382AE-6E88-4A3D-9BB2-1880F05E891F@darou.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF089E2A-545A-4ADD-B66C-2D82C2BC177E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:42:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> Cc: Alia Atlas , IJsbrand Wijnands , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" To: Eric C Rosen References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP at svoboda.polytechnique.org (Wed Aug 9 08:42:50 2017 +0200 (CEST)) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 07:02:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EF089E2A-545A-4ADD-B66C-2D82C2BC177E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Although it is true that any further document could update the = architecture RFC if necessary, from my (short) past experience that's = not what I have seen happen. Architecture documents tend to take holy = proportions, where every line and every word becomes subject to = interpretation as if written by some all wise men. A different encap with a shorter bitstring length would work. The IPv6 encap was one proposed idea, but I can imagine the IoT world = will benefit from some efficient and simple multicast technology too.=20 On links that can only fit a few bytes of payload, I don't see how a = 256bits minimum would be practical. I think that text has to be either removed, or modified. - Pierre > Le 8 ao=C3=BBt 2017 =C3=A0 23:44, Eric C Rosen a = =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Given that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we = should leave it as is. >=20 > If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum = bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can = always update the architecture. =20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: >> Ice, >>=20 >> It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical = change. >> The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through >> the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. >>=20 >> I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to >> bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could >> be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the=20= >> same time - and then back to the IESG. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Alia >>=20 >> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > wrote: >> Hi Folks, >>=20 >> Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in = the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a = property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not = restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with = in the future. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for = MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I = don=E2=80=99t want to change this. >>=20 >> What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to = the encapsulation draft: >>=20 >> "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition >> BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of = being >> provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >>=20 >> Comments? >>=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier = >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail=_EF089E2A-545A-4ADD-B66C-2D82C2BC177E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Although it is true that any further document = could update the architecture RFC if necessary, from my (short) past = experience that's not what I have seen happen. Architecture documents = tend to take holy proportions, where every line and every word becomes = subject to interpretation as if written by some all wise men.

A different encap with a = shorter bitstring length would work.
The IPv6 encap = was one proposed idea, but I can imagine the IoT world will benefit from = some efficient and simple multicast technology too. 
On links that can only fit a few bytes of payload, I don't = see how a 256bits minimum would be practical.

I think that text has to be either = removed, or modified.

- Pierre


Le = 8 ao=C3=BBt 2017 =C3=A0 23:44, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> = a =C3=A9crit :

=20 =20

Given= that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we should leave it as is.

If some = encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can always update the architecture. 



On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas = wrote:
Ice,

It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a = truly critical change.
The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and = gone through
the IESG where it has just one main issue to = handle.

I would like to understand whether there is WG = consensus to
bring the draft back to the WG to deal with = this.  Yes, it could
be a fairly fast process - with the repeated = WGLC and IETF LC at the 
same time - and then back to the IESG.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi = Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a = property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined = them for MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80=99t want to change this.

What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to the encapsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition
   BitStringLength of 256.  Every BFR and = BFER MUST be capable of being
   provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength = of 256.=E2=80=9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/bier

_______________________________________________
BIER = mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

= --Apple-Mail=_EF089E2A-545A-4ADD-B66C-2D82C2BC177E-- From nobody Wed Aug 9 00:30:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6DE132399 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 00:30:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UsELxezgZNwC for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 00:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A11275FD for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 00:30:31 -0700 (PDT) X-scanvirus: By SEG_CYREN AntiVirus Engine X-scanresult: CLEAN X-MAILFROM: 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d="png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="696383527" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Aug 2017 09:24:39 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v799Od7E017379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:24:39 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_102B7ABC-069C-4349-A4D6-AC5FD7A5AF9A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:24:46 +0200 Cc: "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" , Eric C Rosen , Pierre Pfister , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" Message-Id: References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 09:24:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_102B7ABC-069C-4349-A4D6-AC5FD7A5AF9A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hooman, > My 2 cents, the architecture draft should point of the minimum useful = bitStringLenght, any exception to this can be noted in the encapsulation = drafts. Which length is useful totally depends on the use-case. Take = uncompressed video, having a BitString of 16 would already be useful! I feel like I=E2=80=99m proxying for Tony P. ;), but the architecture = document should not put unnecessary restrictions on future deployments = and use-cases. BTW, the main reason to mandate the MUST support for a BitStringLength = of 256 is interoperability, not because we determined this was the = minimum useful length. Thx, Ice. > =20 > Regards > =20 > Hooman > =20 > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dolganow, = Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore) > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 7:06 PM > To: Eric C Rosen > Cc: Pierre Pfister ; BIER (bier@ietf.org) = ; IJsbrand Wijnands > Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in = draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 > =20 > I agree with Eric. We should just leave this as is and deal with a = change when a change is proposed by other encapsulation.=20 >=20 > Andrew=20 > =20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Aug 8, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: >=20 > Given that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we = should leave it as is. >=20 > If some encapsulation is proposed that cannot handle a minimum = bitstring length of 256, the specification of that encapsulation can = always update the architecture.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Ice,=20 > =20 > It's rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical = change. > The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through > the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle. > =20 > I would like to understand whether there is WG consensus to > bring the draft back to the WG to deal with this. Yes, it could > be a fairly fast process - with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the=20= > same time - and then back to the IESG. > =20 > Regards, > Alia > =20 > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands = wrote: > Hi Folks, >=20 > Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the BitString in the = BIER header (as documented in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a = property of the type of encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. = I agree with that POV. The architecture should be flexible and not = restrict alternative BitString lengths that we may want to come up with = in the future. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m very happy with the encodings as how we defined them for = MPLS and non-MPLS encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I = don=E2=80=99t want to change this. >=20 > What I would suggest is to move text below from the architecture to = the encapsulation draft: >=20 > "Every BFIR MUST be capable of being provisioned with an Imposition > BitStringLength of 256. Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable of = being > provisioned with a Disposition BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > Comments? >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > =20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail=_102B7ABC-069C-4349-A4D6-AC5FD7A5AF9A Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E1AD44C6-A807-45AE-AF4C-91C4B3BD6EB7" --Apple-Mail=_E1AD44C6-A807-45AE-AF4C-91C4B3BD6EB7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hooman,

My 2 = cents, the architecture draft should point of the minimum useful = bitStringLenght, any exception to this can be noted in the = encapsulation drafts.

Which length is useful totally depends = on the use-case. Take uncompressed video, having a BitString of 16 would = already be useful!

I feel like I=E2=80=99m proxying for Tony P. ;), but the = architecture document should not put unnecessary restrictions on future = deployments and use-cases.

BTW, the main reason to mandate the MUST support for a = BitStringLength of 256 is interoperability, not because we determined = this was the minimum useful length.

Thx,

Ice.

 
Regards
 
Hooman
 
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 7:06 PM
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Cc: Pierre Pfister <pierre.pfister@darou.fr>; BIER = (bier@ietf.org) <bier@ietf.org>; IJsbrand Wijnands = <ice@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] = BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07
 
I agree with Eric. We should just leave = this as is and deal with a change when a change is proposed by other = encapsulation. 

Andrew 
 
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Eric C Rosen = <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:

Given = that the architecture is almost through IESG review, I think we should = leave it as is.

If some encapsulation is = proposed that cannot handle a minimum bitstring length of 256, the = specification of that encapsulation can always update the = architecture. 

 

 
On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Alia Atlas = wrote:
Ice, 
 
It's = rather a bit late for this - unless it is a truly critical change.
The draft has completed WGLC and IETF LC and gone through
the IESG where it has just one main issue to handle.
 
I would like to understand whether there = is WG consensus to
bring the draft back to the WG to deal = with this.  Yes, it could
be a fairly fast process - = with the repeated WGLC and IETF LC at the 
same time = - and then back to the IESG.
 
Regards,
Alia
 
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:27 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands = <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Folks,

Pierre brought to my attention that the length of the = BitString in the BIER header (as documented in = draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07) is a property of the type of = encapsulation, not necessarily the architecture. I agree with that POV. = The architecture should be flexible and not restrict alternative = BitString lengths that we may want to come up with in = the future.

I=E2=80=99m very happy = with the encodings as how we defined them for MPLS and non-MPLS = encodings in draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-07, I don=E2=80=99t want = to change this.

What I would suggest is to = move text below from the architecture to the encapsulation draft:

"Every BFIR MUST be capable of being = provisioned with an Imposition
  =  BitStringLength of 256.  Every BFR and BFER MUST be capable = of being
   provisioned with a Disposition = BitStringLength of 256.=E2=80=9D


Comments?

Thx,

Ice.



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BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



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header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78_tSO-czy3i for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A70B213241E for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id i66so681287wmg.0 for ; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 09:20:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0BkZxrlMUM03X8zh6QWQKwQe/Yj0PLNQYw/geKguREU=; b=dLXr/bKK4LOM4WpMmBMk4YWxbIl4OLmNhpzcYKGtJ1f3lNz65VAbite/F54YWjxQiH eDlhyuRUm522LFzkabbR8TBaSEuFp94vitsfpzs/7/UHPchQkGMIUJ/ocwKQHYbyI4G1 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09:20:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.145.204 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:20:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:20:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister , Eric C Rosen , "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1af84857ed7b055654767b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 16:20:56 -0000 --94eb2c1af84857ed7b055654767b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:24 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hooman, > > My 2 cents, the architecture draft should point of the minimum useful > bitStringLenght, any exception to this can be noted in the > encapsulation drafts. > > > Which length is useful totally depends on the use-case. Take uncompressed > video, having a BitString of 16 would already be useful! > > I feel like I=E2=80=99m proxying for Tony P. ;), but the architecture doc= ument > should not put unnecessary restrictions on future deployments and use-cas= es. > I was sitting on the sidelines thinking about it but you forced my hand so beautifully here ;-) (and it's nice to see you mastering Captatio benevolentiae ;-) ;-= ) 1. As a matter of principle yes, one of my usual pony horses, "architecture should not overspecify a technology" and that applies here. the architecture doc would be better served without that clause. Having said that ;-) [observe the Dissoi logoi turn ;-) ;-) 2. People who think this is the license to use DIFFSERV bits to run BIER (or any other layering/architectural violation where a couple of "spare bits" can be found) do have to consider that layering (or architectural violations in other realms under such license) exhibit a terrible price over time in terms of sustainability of IP technology in longer term. Architectural violations are easy to argue for as "efficiencies" but those efficiencies exhort mostly a very high technical debt couple years down the road. 3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new WG LC and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will probably make both prudent nevertheless 4. Adding the section to MPSL/Ether encaps is prudent to ensure interoperability of the technology. Given the section passed the architectural review I think it's unnecessary to LC MPLS/Ether encaps again but the 2 weeks make no difference (being a wise man I am I still procastrinated on my shepherd write-down). QED ;-) > > BTW, the main reason to mandate the MUST support for a BitStringLength of > 256 is interoperability, not because we determined this was the minimum > useful length. > > Yes --94eb2c1af84857ed7b055654767b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:24 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <= ;ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hooman= ,

My 2 cents,= the architecture draft should point of the minimum useful bitStringLenght,= any exception to this can be noted in the encapsulation=C2=A0drafts.

Which length is useful totally depend= s on the use-case. Take uncompressed video, having a BitString of 16 would = already be useful!

I feel like I=E2=80=99m proxyin= g for Tony P. ;), but the architecture document should not put unnecessary = restrictions on future deployments and use-cases.


I was= sitting on the sidelines thinking about it but you forced my hand so beaut= ifully here ;-) =C2=A0(and it's nice to see you mastering=C2=A0Captatio benevolentiae=C2=A0;-) ;-)

1. As a matter of principle yes, one of= my usual pony horses, "architecture should not overspecify a technolo= gy" and that applies here. the architecture doc would be better served= without that clause.

Having said that ;-) =C2=A0<= font color=3D"#000000">[observe the=C2=A0Dissoi logoi=C2=A0turn ;-) ;-)

2. People who t= hink this is the license to use DIFFSERV bits to run BIER (or any other lay= ering/architectural violation where a couple of "spare bits" can = be found) do have to consider that layering (or architectural violations in= other realms under such license) exhibit a terrible price over time in ter= ms of sustainability of IP technology in longer term. Architectural violati= ons are easy to argue for as "efficiencies" but those efficiencie= s exhort mostly a very high technical debt couple years down the road.
3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new W= G LC and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will = probably make both prudent nevertheless
4. Adding the section to = MPSL/Ether encaps is prudent to ensure interoperability of the technology. = Given the section passed the architectural review I think it's unnecess= ary to LC MPLS/Ether encaps again but the 2 weeks make no difference (being= a wise man I am I still procastrinated on my shepherd write-down).=C2=A0

QED ;-)
=C2=A0

BTW, the main= reason to mandate the MUST support for a BitStringLength of 256 is interop= erability, not because we determined this was the minimum useful length.


Yes = =C2=A0
--94eb2c1af84857ed7b055654767b-- From nobody Wed Aug 9 10:03:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5121132447 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J8-s9znWYfxc for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82ACD132021 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D200158C4B8; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id BCE65B0C82D; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:03:40 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn, bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:03:47 -0000 On Tue, Aug 08, 2017 at 08:49:44PM +0200, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > If traffic engineering on a bigger scale is needed, it may not be required to do it on a per flow basis but rather on a topology. This can be done with normal BIER and different topologies (sub-domains) created BIFT???s. Maybe this is similar to what Greg Mirsky was saying on the other thread, but I don???t think we would run BIER over RSVP-TE. We run it over different topologies. Right. I left that out of my reply to GregM because he did not list that option, but i agee that this is a good option in the playbook. The problem when you do create alternatives paths by using multiple topologies of an IGP (like ISIS or OSPF) is that it very much depends on your goals how many topologies you need: My favourite topic is live-live redundancy, and depending on topology and where sources and receivers are, this can be very simple (2 topologies) or very difficult (2 topologies per set of sources). And of course the latter is a really unnecessary overhead and in the past operators where alrady weary having to deal with just two topologies due to the need to consider two set of per-link metrics. Effectively you're using a very flexible tool (topologies) to solve a specialized problem. In general i recommend to instead use MRT (RFC7811) for live-live. It would be similarily useable with BIER (or any other multicast, mLDP, PIM for that matter). And it would forego the need to come up and provision multiple set of metrics. Note that protocols like ISIS and OSPF may also start to include MTR, eg: RFC7813, so it becomes more and more confusing to sift through the options ;-) Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. "Your mileage will vary" ;-) Cheers Teorless From nobody Wed Aug 9 10:10:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D76132256 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cHEAVaigKjto for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1779B132350 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2335B58C4B8; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:10:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 06698B0C82D; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:09:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:09:59 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Cc: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170809170959.GB29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:10:11 -0000 Thanks, Hu Architecturally, i have tried to stay out of encapsulation discussions and the BIER-TE arch spec is written exactly like the BIER architecture in a way that it kinda ignores the encapsulation questions. See section 3.3. Aka: If/after bier-te architecture would be accepted as a WG item, i hope that the folks working on the encapsulations (incuding you) will come up with what they cconsider to be the best supportable encapsulation option. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 03:29:48PM +0800, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn wrote: > Hi,Toerless > > I have a suggestion for the issue: we can modify the BIER-TE packet > encapsulation as following: > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BIFT-id | TC |S| TTL | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |Nibble | Ver | BSL | Entropy | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |OAM|B|Rsv| DSCP | Proto | BFIR-id | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BitString Sub-TLVs (variable) | > +- -+ > | | > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ > > We replace "BitString" by "BitString Sub-tlv" to carry several SIs > information in the same packet. If there are several SIs for the BIER-TE > flow, we will fill the same number of "Bitstring Sub-TLV". > > The BitString Sub-tlv format is as following: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BIFT-id | Rsv |N| > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | BitString (variable) | > +- -+ > | | > > The benefits for this encapsulation are: > (1) Avoiding the packet loss in BIER-TE. > (2) Reducing the data packet duplication for the BIER/BIER-TE node. It can > also be used for BIER. If we use this encapsulation for BIER data packet, > it is not necessary to duplicate several copies for different SIs. > > > Regards > Fangwei. > > > > ???????? > > ???????? ; > ??????????????10075772; > ???????? ; > ?? ?? ??2017??08??09?? 01:09 > ?? ?? ??Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE > > sorry, clearing up backlog... > > Good question, > > I am not sure if or how much i elaborated on BIER-TE controller strategies for > bit assignments on the list. And that this could even be a question in BIER. > > I didn't want to put this all into the BIER-TE > draft for matter of size, and consistency: For most parts i think in unicast > TE a lot of strategies on PCE controllers are equally not documented because > they are not needed for standardization - for better or worse. I am open > to any suggestions of how to document this if at all. > > A simple strategy is like this: consider that you have a large network with > a core and a bunch of regions on the edge. You could assign to each region only > BFR-IDs with the same SI (or subdomain for that matter). When you then need to > replicate from some region, you would need to send one copy per SI or subdomain. > If you do not want to have all those SI/subdomains on all possible BFIRs, you > could look into using another unicast MPLS label (eg: SR based) that would get you > to the edge-router into a particular area. Otherwise you'd have one remote adjacency > bit for each SI/subdomain that would do the same thing. And if you want to get > more fancy about TE, you would have bits for multiple redundant ingres area > exit routers and exit-area-ingres-routers to steer the traffic with load-splitting. > > I mentioned how this could btw. equally be a question for BIER: If you had such > a large multi-are network and you would randomnly assign BFR-IDs to BFERs and end > up having in one region BFER with different SI's, then you would also need to > send per-SI copies into that region, which would not be traffic-optimal. Aka: > You would also like to assign BFR-ID in SI groups in topological vicnity to maximize > the replication efficiency in BIER if you have such large networks. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Wed, Aug 02, 2017 at 11:39:07AM +0800, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn wrote: > > Hi,athors of BIER-TE > > > > I have a comment on BIRE-TE. > > > > > > BitPositions are assigned to adjacencies in the BIER-TE architecture instead of BFER in BIER, so it is necessary to have SI in the BIER-TE domain to reduce the Bitstring length. The issues is that if the transmit adjacency for a BIER-node doesn't have the given SI value for a BIER-TE packet(the BitString in BIER encapsulation is related to SubDomain,BSL and SI combination), the BIER-TE packet may be dropped in that BIER-node. > > > > The BIER-TE packet(SI =1 ) will be dropped in the BFR2 in the following figure, for there is no SI=1 entry in the BFR2 BIFT table. How to solve it? Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards. > > > > Fangwei. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Aug 9 11:23:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEAF13245A for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5mm-HEiqRjOF for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4E0132448 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A9358C4DC; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:23:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id ED9CDB0C82E; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:23:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:23:31 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister , "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Eric C Rosen , "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Message-ID: <20170809182331.GC29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:23:39 -0000 I tried to browse through the 82 occurances of "encapsulat" in the arch spec and i could not find a statement that a domain or subdomain MUST use a single encapsulation. There is mentioning of future different encapsulation options. Aka: I don't think its an architectural improvement to move the bistring length definition out of the arch into an encap without discussing this issue in the arch. Something like: - Different encapsulations in a single domain/subdomain are VERBOTEN - Go figure out yourself how to make multiple encaps work in a single domain, consider bitstring length compatibility for example. We don't know yet. Good luck! - Different encapsulations in a subdomain are permitted, and bitstring length interoperability is always possible because the architecture specifies 256 as mandatory. Afaik, just quick browse. There may be a sentence covering this problem already in the arch that i missed. If in doubt, and there can be no WG satisfactory text for this, i think Erics suggestion to solve the issue later is fine too. The Update process is really no pain at all and can be used whenever a new encap is to be standardized. Especially because i am also sure that the proposed change would not make upgrades of asics to future encaps easier. And to comply with TPs style. The BIER arch certainly matches the following principles as it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_good_enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Lance#.22If_it_ain.27t_broke.2C_don.27t_fix_it..22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 09:20:05AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote: > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:24 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > > > Hooman, > > > > My 2 cents, the architecture draft should point of the minimum useful > > bitStringLenght, any exception to this can be noted in the > > encapsulation drafts. > > > > > > Which length is useful totally depends on the use-case. Take uncompressed > > video, having a BitString of 16 would already be useful! > > > > I feel like I???m proxying for Tony P. ;), but the architecture document > > should not put unnecessary restrictions on future deployments and use-cases. > > > > > I was sitting on the sidelines thinking about it but you forced my hand so > beautifully here ;-) (and it's nice to see you mastering Captatio > benevolentiae ;-) ;-) > > 1. As a matter of principle yes, one of my usual pony horses, "architecture > should not overspecify a technology" and that applies here. the > architecture doc would be better served without that clause. > > Having said that ;-) [observe the Dissoi logoi > turn ;-) ;-) > > 2. People who think this is the license to use DIFFSERV bits to run BIER > (or any other layering/architectural violation where a couple of "spare > bits" can be found) do have to consider that layering (or architectural > violations in other realms under such license) exhibit a terrible price > over time in terms of sustainability of IP technology in longer term. > Architectural violations are easy to argue for as "efficiencies" but those > efficiencies exhort mostly a very high technical debt couple years down the > road. > 3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new WG LC > and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will > probably make both prudent nevertheless > 4. Adding the section to MPSL/Ether encaps is prudent to ensure > interoperability of the technology. Given the section passed the > architectural review I think it's unnecessary to LC MPLS/Ether encaps again > but the 2 weeks make no difference (being a wise man I am I still > procastrinated on my shepherd write-down). > > QED ;-) > > > > > > BTW, the main reason to mandate the MUST support for a BitStringLength of > > 256 is interoperability, not because we determined this was the minimum > > useful length. > > > > > Yes > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Aug 9 11:36:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFF13232D for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8yMz5H0cKnFv for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D12D1131CD7 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=765; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502303793; x=1503513393; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=00xL2MCijrFRqgm9Jo6J+UVc2FibfIHGX7Z/Cl93mUI=; b=Ttuz3wBBQKq153cqFhoABlHKfCu57Hj+y60t1FkIuKeAMMliGiSwuNyx eWbE3VWzP+2g+R1MsOEhMfldZOdDsD1e2rCJlKecesdIlJ5HpERN34Zgv 01bLxpc+d4USjaMdhf1gkOeO0iNK73DMRkrwYsWMp2y/rl4yeAyqan9/Y E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DEAwDQVItZ/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBlFSPUQUBgSYEkTuGbIVHAoVBFAECAQEBAQEBAWsohRkBBAEjVgU?= =?us-ascii?q?LCxIIAiYCAkkOBoo1BQiuIIImi2YBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBH4ELgSd2g?= =?us-ascii?q?weCKiuBcIEMhHODEzCCMQEEoBeUNpJRkTaEVTYhgQpTJBVbAYJxhBg+ik0BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,348,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="653827195" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Aug 2017 18:36:28 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v79IaRqQ030141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:36:28 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:36:34 +0200 Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister , Eric C Rosen , "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5617CDBE-E205-4E21-92F2-CDEFD07EDA06@cisco.com> References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> To: Tony Przygienda X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:36:35 -0000 Tony, > 1. As a matter of principle yes, one of my usual pony horses, = "architecture should not overspecify a technology" and that applies = here. the architecture doc would be better served without that clause. Great, lets change it! > 3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new WG = LC and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will = probably make both prudent nevertheless We=E2=80=99ve been working on this architecture for a few years now, and = this document is the MAIN architecture for BIER. If we discovered an = mistake before its published as RFC, lets fix it now. If WG LC and IESG = will add a 4 month delay, who cares? BTW, I loved you=E2=80=99re references :-) Thx, Ice. From nobody Wed Aug 9 11:51:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6622132481 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hs9PQBR10L5w for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C69CB132480 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=340; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502304676; x=1503514276; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Lw0FL3cJhItjN0RD+BT9P4xR3705kT9lNpsSVcvGx2E=; b=DXj2K86KV5z1E8VM/LLbWGUkj5ZGCB/SCAC6h9DiLWG3FFHZT2us/3LS nr025nVtLnt3/iUWbJ78HCPE+/43CjJ98cXFY6mRcawb34gjh7jdfdqJ3 anfh7bLr9cWn6Buc8gWSQHDAlSDJA8+Ujj44thai/wfJ/7XeHMvTxYWCF k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DEAwCXWItZ/xbLJq1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBhD6QFo9RBQGBJgSYJyyFGwKFQRQBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUZAQQBOj8?= =?us-ascii?q?FCwsOOFcGLooHBQgQsD2LZgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgyiDB4IpA?= =?us-ascii?q?SuCfIg2gjEBBKAXh1OMY4F3AZBZkTaEVTYhgQpTJBVbAYJxhBg+ik0BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,348,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="656669883" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Aug 2017 18:51:12 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8819.cisco.com [10.60.202.90]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v79IpCsZ018992 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:51:12 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:51:18 +0200 Cc: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn, bier@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:51:19 -0000 Toerless, > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem :-) Thx, Ice. From nobody Wed Aug 9 12:29:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070EB132495 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RP9T_YM7gm75 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E799132489 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o85so32239527lff.3 for ; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qPxriKFaYPpJ52zQV6Cwb9bF1iADY8te9Ct/clxCOkA=; b=ke1jWZ5HwQJC0imRhH2agiesxhWHCHmgNbE6bsG+grjZhYTRv3DhM2Fe606GT5HUBn Dgdy+GKUWXHWm42kSyuKNSV3tGkRMxN+Ao2amgmckglDeWYYByPS72GyRoMYZuXXNuDG zmkDQirJqG0aGc7RazyMfCFDxWIJk8AHGJuJdiJ9nFIXjBKXDV0qojkd6sgKKJxr0zIa itzLf2mnKBCKgnU9pS3a1w9XNBzSS3jyRWS6to8Ljp5Zu031wsyV1dyU3rhUtLZpIH88 WM2b8l2B2ML3oB8SOZx8FyWIe3XmRZha7JTKLF0RKRf7RwkDufjGC48NYgV4ymI083nK doRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qPxriKFaYPpJ52zQV6Cwb9bF1iADY8te9Ct/clxCOkA=; b=VQglCMR1sK4hEhVXvd0Xkx2TF1lCzF2//RyC7Hs++pm2fYnH7QWrTVcfpQ22+1Ysuo D7JqJcXCPbDwlfwKgZNNLsgukiQNPV+YuZYb499Yjx5/pvI+SL6atOYrBzOgg2MZ7CY7 5NkP8wrDjd+i2THgDbqnr5tDMffch+wwSLsZGUpethjaw8xxFjMg7ww6Abq0jRfnZRH/ 28w0PgQ6uLGvRyEv3EUgVmZZdCHreI6NdAscS9t9iwj8hvUyT/SElp9dssmhwA27qVp5 IZ9VZ4A6fXh7gKD04UVhFS37CABJQEMecg/HLlDv4kn+HwpLs3FXttOcAfNf42spQEz7 s11w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hE6GM9fwDPWtcM6SKIr3tdrwstRAIE57jRFZr5XG3qYcrmVp8l lWnf3QUFdOGmM2gGhPtGJraR98rGfw== X-Received: by 10.46.83.81 with SMTP id t17mr3469509ljd.187.1502306956181; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:29:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:29:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: Toerless Eckert , bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1cfaa87788c205565718d4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:29:21 -0000 --94eb2c1cfaa87788c205565718d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. Ice, we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but you've captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may be better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And segment routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses distributed control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. Regards, Greg On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Toerless, > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem > > :-) > > Thx, > > Ice. > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --94eb2c1cfaa87788c205565718d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al,
I think that we arrived to r= ealization that it may be helpful first to formulate the problem, requireme= nts towards TE at BIER layer, if any.

Ice,
we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', = but you've captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protec= tion, may be better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network= . And segment routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one use= s distributed control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary iss= ue.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:5= 1 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Toerless,

> Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering&quo= t;)
> to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want
> to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp.
> "Your mileage will vary" ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.o= rg/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem

:-)

Thx,

Ice.

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--94eb2c1cfaa87788c205565718d4-- From nobody Wed Aug 9 14:03:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4544413244C for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5hFYblih-yX for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D91CC1323B8 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10DA58C4E3; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id C8FDAB0C835; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:03:47 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Message-ID: <20170809210347.GD29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:03:54 -0000 ;-) exactly. I am mentioning steiner trees every year once since 20 year in the hope someone will stand up and say he needs it in reality. No luck yet. Load splitting obviously is very important but was maybe not a good example for using topologies given how BIER already has a pretty good native ECMP scheme. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 08:51:18PM +0200, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Toerless, > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem > > :-) > > Thx, > > Ice. > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Aug 9 14:19:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9203132445 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qaLyE7zpaRhB for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A243A132339 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD8858C4E3; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:18:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 155BCB0C835; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:18:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 23:18:53 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Mirsky Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Message-ID: <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:19:01 -0000 Greg: I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast requirements will be more than typical unicast). The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of BIER and expanding its architecture. Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other functions, but i am not relating to those. If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more detailed. Pls. let me know. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > Ice, > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but you've > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may be > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And segment > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses distributed > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > > > Toerless, > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem > > > > :-) > > > > Thx, > > > > Ice. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Aug 9 15:14:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA00813226B for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nU99B2YOUTuQ for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5F1E132195 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t201so6575972wmt.1 for ; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g0PYl597PEK25mh9er2SMLxhflG5Oo/2d36xvyku76U=; b=uzQn80KAgD8oXOHGNkHlJsTBMZKeEWK2IatUa91rFA+ciuKJlSV5YUOkQ3KzQCNveC E8fItXNpzCfOgwXmIMOMX2nYresc2XwhBgJ3FRSxaeH/RGB6EVYCuAYb3qo1lz4aD1Uz 6OAHBN3jgvdFsJrtcExEduvBvJ7+GygDpqhX1DSC+E4s3WKkdKvIlRkUYVBD3yT+4Fly F1DWGCAkbCaILx7Dz+zfEzfT7qGObS8S2utbBe2tt9w2Ef3vzackgP5OMto2Jqwnn8jm 0UgCS4xhxVhuosFSNTOlaUe912uc+44V5UaP0q6O51aJBvcIotQxq6bGUzXJp+otf0r3 +etA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g0PYl597PEK25mh9er2SMLxhflG5Oo/2d36xvyku76U=; b=q2SgY06BSsAytzi3kxZ6R3QM2ShQ4zEeaEJz/0M3PfS7kn7u6C/xEDM6nZWD27t0zl JNEqUSPKqgSQja0OCakOmleQ6KjpnVi6l0UwN2lRXxsf7750Qn0eTYhr3L6znUqTVRZn 9ZhPXljGamcWtYyQp1/5C4wKyQMf6jlVl8+bGPUKKo2xQ71WgXu1dz0isQe+fjkDtre4 yTh9xVmTH2RAfzo+OPs7FvqWVpZnzT6na/37F54ReiCdm2npJ24OzTfs1a1U/ho3rBF4 ijQ4ACjPWgcP/MyDjek86VHugzPPWdCNgDpZLRlFCZ6J1zGgMfkDuwm2v5zy10LBdFZs mQ5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5iKvb+TFr6GvqFkiVpqipjaelUJ679pZ5Zop22zaKXuBOYVPVq3 DsF2kJTh1quXP//6hYPC9B7Z+FBLEw== X-Received: by 10.80.143.101 with SMTP id 92mr9538440edy.68.1502316866333; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:14:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.145.204 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:13:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5617CDBE-E205-4E21-92F2-CDEFD07EDA06@cisco.com> References: <7E91C246-6077-4172-A37C-C9B89AF92858@cisco.com> <7fba9717-b87d-ccd4-84b6-2e605ac0becf@juniper.net> <5617CDBE-E205-4E21-92F2-CDEFD07EDA06@cisco.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:13:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "BIER (bier@ietf.org)" , Pierre Pfister , Eric C Rosen , "Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1959fc2871b205565967b7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BitStringLengths in draft-ietf-bier-architecture-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 22:14:30 -0000 --94eb2c1959fc2871b205565967b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:36 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Tony, > > > 1. As a matter of principle yes, one of my usual pony horses, > "architecture should not overspecify a technology" and that applies here. > the architecture doc would be better served without that clause. > > Great, lets change it! > > > 3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new WG > LC and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will > probably make both prudent nevertheless > > We=E2=80=99ve been working on this architecture for a few years now, and = this > document is the MAIN architecture for BIER. If we discovered an mistake > before its published as RFC, lets fix it now. If WG LC and IESG will add = a > 4 month delay, who cares? > > OK, I go along with your arguments. Alia, how much of LC do we have to rerun after the section is removed from arch + ops added & section is added to encaps doc? But do not forget the 2) ! --- tony --94eb2c1959fc2871b205565967b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:36 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands &l= t;ice@cisco.com><= /span> wrote:
Tony,

> 1. As a matter of principle yes, one of my usual pony horses, "ar= chitecture should not overspecify a technology" and that applies here.= the architecture doc would be better served without that clause.

Great, lets change it!

> 3. Removing the restriction must not, IMO, result in a complete new WG= LC and IESG review albeit Greg has to write a new Ops section which will p= robably make both prudent nevertheless

We=E2=80=99ve been working on this architecture for a few years now,= and this document is the MAIN architecture for BIER. If we discovered an m= istake before its published as RFC, lets fix it now. If WG LC and IESG will= add a 4 month delay, who cares?


OK= , I go along with your arguments.=C2=A0

Alia, how = much of LC do we have to rerun after the section is removed from arch + ops= added & section is added to encaps doc?

But d= o not forget the 2) !

--- tony=C2=A0
--94eb2c1959fc2871b205565967b7-- From nobody Wed Aug 9 19:43:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46836131CBF for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PstM_mzj6w2S for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 180F2127735 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o85so35438170lff.3 for ; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:43:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VfhtiNcNBlF68mPXTWxYs4E+RczKmJ+doZbyXmswGeo=; b=UjBCzsFwZY7mrd37hcdOqGZ5v0pFT/EFgwC3pJejCrbtiJ5nyEHgz+PSKHKKkSZFMf /64EbskcJDMucjQwdL74blBJNrOKNH9FTDTear/g2bewaIWK4k3AIyMcTftyEYPc8xlk lbaX72vdqJjXqyHvYyo7tzn0TUvr1B0X3yL50JNN6Z7a87ofBttRQRibsL86YCubmpCT Mo9a8LaqVrpqSaD6D0/46+acp6nFKPvDWy/OnN0eddFytxH6KU0eRwu8Gv27kbTB+Lsi sytJ5L0t7sg2AufoneNYscYpF4CRJnxa23+kUN/QNUGhLntWyIoyF3EIbI7E7ayyUive y7xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VfhtiNcNBlF68mPXTWxYs4E+RczKmJ+doZbyXmswGeo=; b=YPiW5MLQeRnKXDTr7gGRFAcShIXUZGuTNICeXQRj/kcf4kSH3X+g2pab7/gLQP6D9z MTT3B00waTZ3GhlI2CouzfVer3QvIWl0LEN2KeJOufiMO0W/3GpHGSv7Y1Qa2LRVbN7W /uVrFKymH/dOoMvzIqce4IQSH02kHy+9uHNs9aov0hY8KMtIRmsjHg81nuUsBh09jP+A 6vRVOt/SkI6OfzDpJIxKcj6YADMVJJYI3hTwkhCMdyp6cacKlGkxll+uSnT27+6UZlUS egfQW/GxdYv07FMikdphqvE2HD9Q9mH3Z+msdjPsRCFUFcl+U00osAYef0siLfpF8FDf TmeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j1PE55AMQ3zAVnzYYqiSiLmzipqPxt2ty+gs3ty1FCIYUJZGsZ qlX++AfLucYBDJSWTWELzxDiILTasA== X-Received: by 10.46.88.65 with SMTP id x1mr3826762ljd.162.1502332987059; Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:43:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:43:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043882b40732dc05565d2812" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:43:12 -0000 --f403043882b40732dc05565d2812 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Toerless, though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues when comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered transport network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS data plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. In order to achieve full control over flows, as I understand the proposed BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all nodes must be BFRs. That would highly likely not allow easy brownfield deployment as BIER-TE may require new HW. The multi-layer approach will only require limited upgrade of HW in the domain to add BIER functionality (assuming that the domain is already using MPLS in its data plane). If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would you agree? Regards, Greg On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Greg: > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > > > Ice, > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but > you've > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may be > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And segment > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > distributed > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > wrote: > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > r_a_problem > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --f403043882b40732dc05565d2812 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless,
though the goal perhaps= was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER architecture, the BIER-T= E, in my opinion, does have serious issues when comparing to a solution tha= t overlays BIER on traffic engineered transport network constructed using t= he segment routing with, for example, MPLS data plane. I'll refer to th= e latter as multi-layer TEed BIER.
In order to achieve full contr= ol over flows, as I understand the proposed BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-= TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all nodes must be BFRs. That would high= ly likely not allow easy brownfield deployment as BIER-TE may require new H= W. The multi-layer approach will only require limited upgrade of HW in the = domain to add BIER functionality (assuming that the domain is already using= MPLS in its data plane).

If you consider relaxing= requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous domains, then, I believe, y= ou lose control over path selection. Would you agree?=C2=A0

Regards,=C2=A0
Greg

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert <= ;tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
Greg:

I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear:
It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic,
just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy
controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in
complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live
is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast
requirements will be more than typical unicast).

The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an
evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the
evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides
for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight
signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of
BIER and expanding its architecture.

Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other
functions, but i am not relating to those.

If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft
text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more
detailed. Pls. let me know.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless


On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al,
> I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to=
> formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any.<= br> >
> Ice,
> we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology'= , but you've
> captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may = be
> better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And se= gment
> routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses distrib= uted
> control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> > Toerless,
> >
> > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engin= eering")
> > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you wa= nt
> > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp.=
> > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-)
> >
> > https://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_for_a_problem
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Thx,
> >
> > Ice.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org<= /a>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= /a>
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--f403043882b40732dc05565d2812-- From nobody Thu Aug 10 07:43:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA38813231E for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3uZwtg6rwSf for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462D51321DC for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C7358C4EA; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:43:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id C3ACEB0C840; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:43:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:43:11 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Mirsky Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Message-ID: <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 14:43:29 -0000 Inline. On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 07:43:05PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues when > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered transport > network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS data > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approach or would you mind to elaborate on it ? I asked the first time around and provided explanations about the insufficiency of various approaches and you did not answer to that first request for references or commonted on my proposed interpretation of your claims. > In order to achieve full control over flows, as I understand the proposed > BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all > nodes must be BFRs. That would highly likely not allow easy brownfield > deployment as BIER-TE may require new HW. The multi-layer approach will > only require limited upgrade of HW in the domain to add BIER functionality > (assuming that the domain is already using MPLS in its data plane). | 4.8.2. Supporting nodes without BIER-TE | | Routed adjacencies also enable incremental deployment of BIER-TE. | Only the nodes through which BIER-TE traffic needs to be steered - | with or without replication - need to support BIER-TE. Where they | are not directly connected to each other, forward_routed adjacencies | are used to pass over non BIER-TE enabled nodes. | | 8. BIER-TE and Segment Routing | | Segment Routing aims to achieve lightweight path engineering via | loose source routing. Compared for example to RSVP-TE, it does not | require per-path signaling to each of these hops. | | BIER-TE is supports the same design philosophy for multicast. Like | in SR, it relies on source-routing - via the definition of a | BitString. Like SR, it only requires to consider the "hops" on which | either replication has to happen, or across which the traffic should | be steered (even without replication). Any other hops can be skipped | via the use of routed adjacencies. | | Instead of defining BitPositions for non-replicating hops, it is | equally possible to use segment routing encapsulations (eg: MPLS | label stacks) for "forward_routed" adjacencies. Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed. What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a bit whether or how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for imposition/disposition, so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia): A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE forwarding plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which later BFRs will see to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only that first replicating BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the BFIR just does this imposition and sends an MPLS packet. B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or even for the same SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case the forwarding plane would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A). Aka: These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list. C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the encap would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The remote-adjacency on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack that not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that disposition label. Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this label -> dispose of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) and pass the rest to IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz" > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would you > agree? See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need to use it, and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate. In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the example of a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few edge routers each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations of (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate in the receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may have eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics ring direction). Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of requirements, but of course i am happy to write down an example. I was just hoping that examples of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be rather a nice follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc. The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully programmable forwarding plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're defining "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i would certainly like to suggest that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item. Cheers Toerless > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > Greg: > > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other > > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > > > > > Ice, > > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but > > you've > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may be > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And segment > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > > distributed > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > > wrote: > > > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > > r_a_problem > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Aug 10 08:05:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2795132199 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOChXP0R846V for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99B6613237A for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692A358C4EB; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 4CA3AB0C847; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:05:13 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Mirsky Cc: bier@ietf.org, IJsbrand Wijnands , hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Message-ID: <20170810150513.GG29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:05:30 -0000 Btw: one quick amendment: It would IMHO be perfectly valid to also define one additional level of reduced support, and that is to have nodes that can just replicate based on a label but not support BIER. You would use that if you knew that you always would want to replicate to specific next-hops, and that there is no need to let this be flexibly selected by bits. The example would be replication in this big core where we know that there will always be _some_ receiver behind the nexthop because of statistics (each region aggregates a few million viewers for example). So if you amend the example: the ingres-edge-2-core router was selected by bits, and the bits it is looking at are adjacencies to lets say 4 alternative "always-replicate" routers with no BIER knowledge in the core. One of hose 4 bits is set, to select one. When it arrives at that core router its just label lookup and replicate, no knowledge of BIER-TE, those copies go to multiple core-2-egres-edge routers, and lets assume those would do BIER-TE again. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 04:43:11PM +0200, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Inline. > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 07:43:05PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER > > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues when > > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered transport > > network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS data > > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. > > Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approach > or would you mind to elaborate on it ? I asked the first time around and > provided explanations about the insufficiency of various approaches > and you did not answer to that first request for references or commonted > on my proposed interpretation of your claims. > > > In order to achieve full control over flows, as I understand the proposed > > BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all > > nodes must be BFRs. That would highly likely not allow easy brownfield > > deployment as BIER-TE may require new HW. The multi-layer approach will > > only require limited upgrade of HW in the domain to add BIER functionality > > (assuming that the domain is already using MPLS in its data plane). > > | 4.8.2. Supporting nodes without BIER-TE > | > | Routed adjacencies also enable incremental deployment of BIER-TE. > | Only the nodes through which BIER-TE traffic needs to be steered - > | with or without replication - need to support BIER-TE. Where they > | are not directly connected to each other, forward_routed adjacencies > | are used to pass over non BIER-TE enabled nodes. > | > | 8. BIER-TE and Segment Routing > | > | Segment Routing aims to achieve lightweight path engineering via > | loose source routing. Compared for example to RSVP-TE, it does not > | require per-path signaling to each of these hops. > | > | BIER-TE is supports the same design philosophy for multicast. Like > | in SR, it relies on source-routing - via the definition of a > | BitString. Like SR, it only requires to consider the "hops" on which > | either replication has to happen, or across which the traffic should > | be steered (even without replication). Any other hops can be skipped > | via the use of routed adjacencies. > | > | Instead of defining BitPositions for non-replicating hops, it is > | equally possible to use segment routing encapsulations (eg: MPLS > | label stacks) for "forward_routed" adjacencies. > > Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to > only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed. > > What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a bit whether or > how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for imposition/disposition, > so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia): > > A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE forwarding > plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which later BFRs will see > to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only that first replicating > BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the BFIR just does this > imposition and sends an MPLS packet. > B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or even for the same > SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case the forwarding plane > would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A). Aka: > These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list. > C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the encap > would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The remote-adjacency > on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack that > not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that disposition label. > Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this label -> dispose > of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) and pass the rest to > IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz" > > > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous > > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would you > > agree? > > See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need to use it, > and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate. > > In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the example of > a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few edge routers > each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations of > (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate in the > receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may have > eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics ring direction). > > Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of requirements, > but of course i am happy to write down an example. I was just hoping that examples > of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be rather a nice > follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc. > > The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully programmable forwarding > plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're defining > "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i would certainly like to suggest > that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > Greg: > > > > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, > > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > > > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > > > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > > > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides > > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > > > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > > > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other > > > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > > > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > > > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first to > > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but > > > you've > > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, may be > > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And segment > > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > > > distributed > > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > > > r_a_problem > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Aug 10 08:19:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0733C129ADA; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aIQujQ0zRSLS; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 280AF13232C; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1146; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1502378374; x=1503587974; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=oUPsaqzogVKauvuzLMN8qE97mfzZ3d+Da2SR7AlUsMU=; b=EfXwKH+Ar4YBNRWd0fBSMPmQ6NTRpRTyqRuj0ksqz+3xg9PDnL/+QTgy q24sIXJTNQOtYRvazCVy7k1DYawpuHBalU21pAVZhXTBRk3ftu/0ZYvUN Jc1OJTmgYYlp7GC79gpcJPSBgVGD1HmyDWPT1D1ek73H6PUWrDHwggoxp c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C8AAAZeYxZ/4sNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBg1pkgRQHjgiQCYFuiDaNXw6CBCENhRkChHk/GAECAQEBAQEBAWs?= =?us-ascii?q?dC4UYAQIBAwEBGx00CxIBCBEDAQIfMQYLHQkBBA4FCIoPAxUQrn2HNw2EJQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgyiCAoFMgWIBgyeCV4FmNiaFTgWfYTwCh1G?= =?us-ascii?q?HcYRrghiFXYN5hm2ML4leAR84gQp3FUmHGnaJFYEPAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,353,1498521600"; d="scan'208";a="63087345" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Aug 2017 15:19:32 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v7AFJWhm024748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:19:32 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:19:31 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:19:31 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "bier-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch] Thread-Index: AdMR697xigwwgxbZQ+29GBsT8AH4cg== Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:19:29 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:19:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3b204d95896d4003a2487a9a082a4669@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.77.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:19:36 -0000 Dear chairs:=20 I support the adoption of both documents of the BIER-TE work. I see a great= potential for DetNet types of scenarios, both in wired and wireless enviro= nments. I wrote https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-bier-replication-= elimination-00 to reflect the kind of applications we may find in the conte= xt of 6TiSCH. And I'm sure there's a lot more to come in the generic space = where DetNet applies. Cheers, Pascal Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 19:02:03 -0700 From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch We had solid support in the room in Prague to adopt this work. So let's get= a vote from the list. Please read and respond for or against adopting this= as a WG document: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ Cheers, Greg _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier ----- End forwarded message ----- -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Aug 10 23:57:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F631321AD; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 23:57:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150243464061.8533.12772268121295019300@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 23:57:20 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 06:57:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Data Model for BIER Protocol Authors : Ran Chen Fangwei Hu Zheng Zhang Xianxian Dai Mahesh Sivakumar Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-02.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2017-08-10 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model for BIER configuration and operation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Aug 11 12:20:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC952132640 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQXAo9KQH7MY for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7E5B132467 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id m85so48550535wma.0 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=H07My+6IXVtu6FylCdG5GIHf8uX7VK6T55+6/7d+Gko=; b=PSU3htCa1YgBj8QWnIrSOZhjqC6scbZ691V6zmRBVb+Qq49Fv6EbeviNP3el0wng0d FGK6IGetOuaXdmm14EkTudp6aH380qug/tFKuMPD40WqzUic9Q46CZ8ka946CxELr18d qWrXFasUv5krNVQu9OnsR+m0iHIzR0QTg9ppMu+zfqqdkna7Ci9ddgT22zArTYB+VRpX R61m1RGRLAehbtdo02ubFusUeXo/MVbGYONYKmMahqD4A8lWlJLqsnPEcFZ/5iCw75mi BNHGjbYzh05ByW68PKlCPnOSNlmHgPNJkV0COxAmvjHsXeO2elI4QN7GHsd9f4lR9R7m oMYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=H07My+6IXVtu6FylCdG5GIHf8uX7VK6T55+6/7d+Gko=; b=HD5h0cuw3HtRO2cjPXZ/6Tm0uVG+VjQyAzbrsINb4mC2tX5YUFDkTkZnsvVUvYhsXO F/n/Xf1Zm0OndRxVt7Vf8CptON18B+rw+fVBVaUmxpN++qhzyoPne+O0o7sZo6ZQTgEv g31WKfNM3wPr3hKi9QzSRThFg4ubYQwbmpucww0qLjZEtPy1mxEZkOrYBVXhXOEOn32N ordb6ecFhbEvcqkz7SCpt11YoBQBpIty5tVFm0+YsMmT9MMPtwL/HepJ7wkcxF9q9C5c mgQ0QnSlFJ+kfW9p3Z01dA5vKf4IjuU8Uw05cqXtEWyvXuina6PP1cDbaAVEARTHkiZf QMOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jil//6R3A1aVlaGXka2JjeQVUx6wpWMW9cx6csEwqszH+pKVRd qfC1RylhryDTXPgkI3WNjCxIGpJXKuisAg4= X-Received: by 10.80.179.235 with SMTP id t40mr17075752edd.62.1502479199120; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:19:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.145.204 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:19:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:19:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0deda4f2306805567f32ac" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Important: Early allocation codepoints have been granted ... Comments for Last Calls X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 19:20:08 -0000 --94eb2c0deda4f2306805567f32ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Following early allocation codepoints have been granted and/or commented upon. Please according editors/authors to take action & repost according new versions. --- In accordance with the IS-IS-specific procedure established in RFC 7370, we've added the following early allocation to the IS-IS Sub-TLVs for TLVs 135, 235, 236, and 237 registry: Type: 32 Description: BIER Info (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-07-05, expires 2018-07-05) 135: y 235: y 236: y 237: y Reference: [*draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions*] --- We've made the following early allocation in the P-Multicast Service Interface Tunnel (PMSI Tunnel) Tunnel Types registry: 0x0B BIER (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29) [ *draft-ietf-bier-mvpn*] --- We've made the following early allocations in the OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry: 9 BIER Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29) [ *draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions*] 10 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29) [draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions] 11 BIER Tree Type Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29) [draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions] --- ------------ Following LC comments are provided by the early allocation requests and need to be incorporated into the documents as part of the LC The registry for sub-sub-TLVs for *draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions* cannot be created using early allocation. Please extend the document by following IANA considerations " Does this registry have a maximum value? Should 0 be listed as "Unassigned," listed as "Reserved," or left out of the registry? " --------- The next protocol identifiers registry in *draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation* cannot be created using early allocation process. Please extend the document by following IANA considerations " the document should specify whether 64 is the maximum value " For BIER header version, registry cannot be created using early allocation process. Please extend the document by following IANA considerations " please specify the registry's maximum value in the IANA Considerations section " ------ thanks --- tony --94eb2c0deda4f2306805567f32ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Follo= wing early allocation codepoints have been granted and/or commented upon. P= lease according editors/authors to take action & repost according new v= ersions.=C2=A0

---
In accordance with the IS-IS-specif= ic procedure established in RFC
7370, we've added the following early allocation= to the IS-IS Sub-TLVs
for TLVs 135, 235, 236, and 237 registry:
Type: 32
Description: BIER Info (TEMPORARY - = registered 2017-07-05, expires
2018-07-05)
135: y
235: y
236: y
237: y
Reference: [draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions]
<= /div>
---
=

We've mad= e the following early allocation in the P-Multicast Service Interface Tunne= l (PMSI Tunnel) Tunnel Types registry:

0x0B=C2=A0= =C2=A0BIER (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29)=C2=A0=C2= =A0[draft-ietf-bier-mvpn]
---

We've made the following early allocations in the OSPFv2 Extended Pre= fix TLV Sub-TLVs registry:

9=C2=A0=C2=A0BIER Sub-T= LV (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29)=C2=A0=C2=A0[d= raft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions]

10=C2=A0= =C2=A0BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2017-06-29, e= xpires 2018-06-29)=C2=A0=C2=A0[draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions]
<= div>
11=C2=A0=C2=A0BIER Tree Type Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - regist= ered 2017-06-29, expires 2018-06-29)=C2=A0=C2=A0[draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-= extensions]
---

------------
=

Following LC comments are provided by the early allocat= ion requests and need to be incorporated into the documents as part of the = LC

The registry for sub-sub-TLVs for=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions=C2=A0cannot be created using early allocation. Please extend the document by fo= llowing IANA considerations

"
Does this registry have a maximum value? Should= 0 be listed as "Unassigned," listed as "Reserved," or = left out of the registry?
"

---------

The next protocol identifiers registry in=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation cannot be crea= ted using early allocation process.=C2=A0Please extend the document = by following IANA considerations

"
=
the document should specify whether 6= 4 is the maximum value
"

For BIER header version, registry=C2=A0cannot be created using early allocation process.=C2=A0Pleas= e extend the document by following IANA considerations

=
"
please specify the r= egistry's maximum value in the IANA Considerations section
"

------

thanks=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0
--94eb2c0deda4f2306805567f32ac-- From nobody Sun Aug 13 11:40:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BCF13242F for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F1Goa1r3yN8I for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC7A01323B1 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o85so32287725lff.3 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l86y7rn9IKOPcPuQU0sm4JK3gH6VTiZT7WH0L35QXlw=; b=nnDHy664mDq7FwPylTZ++zAMIkdoUqkyAhgMqS6I48seWhYXn+NzTb7yGv/dfpEEKR UeAogpmKuVTFlJwIU/tF9NelNx6X1UpbXvAJ8zgTc4z3ro+ygMNQUnHcTWI6TksxNEKQ cb4hyQxk9h85t9rc3kaB5Qt8f3tAYLSgyeChtTyki05DDz6Z4SvwOb9mrrcRMlsLHkrD 1IXZI4nYfkPIStaX4pl+D978ed0iiANtUx5sHcBC04h1yS4/s1VO1NnvdXyVtwdR577D VQoPyG8ENNRIxGOsUcl8rVw074dGCFn/HnN9u4fc70qm4pvmyNx/inU+FrkP2lxl3ILa RuTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l86y7rn9IKOPcPuQU0sm4JK3gH6VTiZT7WH0L35QXlw=; b=TUx2Q5LPk5R/OwEgj0/OlqPPgaeTk3otSVNN4Y4o5CzMAj9CTx00cxEeXl1L6Rrdqo qcRgN6FvVg8lbXu97tycXgKrQscvGtU3RchihTOpHomCuRhwRiMdAPNntl4EJDRzo2gC Z3OnutmsSCRArfWv75gawuzQfhtAzpwhP3VepRJEUKHvrO652zz90VgTMLqjtq1ee+T6 1nHHFFVb5TmjixQSMYk4sN+WTaq1pRZ/LSgnXtPqMD/M7KQc39TVFb2TAg1Ofx+h/pu0 nLJBtpNJRhD+wEWIGo86+gidwdHTq7CSYaFXj8w1pjkWjrtoWksEGhc3rd/T2vFAORIF R9rQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5i+aVXHtZPUA5cQh0z30MbYqQIPDv3MfrGo+12zeEqqu1kMxSOw zggqXk/vkeEl8SgFmgSBOKuPMDIUrQ== X-Received: by 10.46.2.74 with SMTP id 71mr7047119ljc.1.1502649628570; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 11:40:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands , bier@ietf.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0ba988553b1d0556a6e190" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 18:40:35 -0000 --94eb2c0ba988553b1d0556a6e190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Toerless, got busy and couldn't respond in time. Please find my answers, notes in-lined tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Inline. > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 07:43:05PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER > > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues when > > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered > transport > > network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS > data > > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. > > Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approach > GIM>> I don't think that there's need to describe how to construct per BIER sub-domain BIRTs. And with that one can have traffic engineered sub-domains of his/her liking. And choosing among them is as simple as choosing which sub-domain to use for forwarding. > or would you mind to elaborate on it ? I asked the first time around and > provided explanations about the insufficiency of various approaches > and you did not answer to that first request for references or commonted > on my proposed interpretation of your claims. > > > In order to achieve full control over flows, as I understand the proposed > > BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all > > nodes must be BFRs. That would highly likely not allow easy brownfield > > deployment as BIER-TE may require new HW. The multi-layer approach will > > only require limited upgrade of HW in the domain to add BIER > functionality > > (assuming that the domain is already using MPLS in its data plane). > > | 4.8.2. Supporting nodes without BIER-TE > | > | Routed adjacencies also enable incremental deployment of BIER-TE. > | Only the nodes through which BIER-TE traffic needs to be steered - > | with or without replication - need to support BIER-TE. Where they > | are not directly connected to each other, forward_routed adjacencies > | are used to pass over non BIER-TE enabled nodes. > | > | 8. BIER-TE and Segment Routing > | > | Segment Routing aims to achieve lightweight path engineering via > | loose source routing. Compared for example to RSVP-TE, it does not > | require per-path signaling to each of these hops. > | > | BIER-TE is supports the same design philosophy for multicast. Like > | in SR, it relies on source-routing - via the definition of a > | BitString. Like SR, it only requires to consider the "hops" on which > | either replication has to happen, or across which the traffic should > | be steered (even without replication). Any other hops can be skipped > | via the use of routed adjacencies. > | > | Instead of defining BitPositions for non-replicating hops, it is > | equally possible to use segment routing encapsulations (eg: MPLS > | label stacks) for "forward_routed" adjacencies. > > Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to > only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed. > GIM>> Not with BIER-TE model. > > What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a > bit whether or > how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for > imposition/disposition, > so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia): > > A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE > forwarding > plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which later > BFRs will see > to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only that > first replicating > BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the BFIR > just does this > imposition and sends an MPLS packet. > B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or > even for the same > SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case the forwarding plane > would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A). Aka: > These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list. > C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the encap > would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The > remote-adjacency > on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack that > not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that > disposition label. > Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this label -> > dispose > of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) and > pass the rest to > IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz" > GIM>> If, as you say, "BFER-TE support could be avoided" by using segment routing in the underlay, then why do we need BIER-TE? You just re-stated my point, thank you. > > > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous > > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would you > > agree? > > See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need to use > it, > and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate. > > In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the > example of > a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few edge > routers > each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations of > (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate in > the > receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may have > eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics ring > direction). > > Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of > requirements, > but of course i am happy to write down an example. I was just hoping that > examples > of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be rather a > nice > follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc. > > The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully > programmable forwarding > plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're defining > "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i would > certainly like to suggest > that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > Greg: > > > > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, > > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > > > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > > > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > > > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides > > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > > > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > > > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other > > > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > > > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > > > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first > to > > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but > > > you've > > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, > may be > > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And > segment > > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > > > distributed > > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > > > r_a_problem > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --94eb2c0ba988553b1d0556a6e190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless,
got busy and couldn't respond in time= . Please find my answers, notes in-lined tagged GIM>>.

=
Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@c= s.fau.de> wrote:
Inline.

On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 07:43:05PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Toerless,
> though the goal perh= aps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER
> architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues whe= n
> comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered trans= port
> network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS = data
> plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER.

Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approa= ch
GIM>> I don't think that there's need= to describe how to construct per BIER sub-domain BIRTs. And with that one = can have traffic engineered sub-domains of his/her liking. And choosing amo= ng them is as simple as choosing which sub-domain to use for forwarding.
or would you mind to elaborate on it ? I asked the first time around and provided explanations about the insufficiency of various approaches
and you did not answer to that first request for references or commonted on my proposed interpretation of your claims.

> In order to achieve full control over flows, as I understand the propo= sed
> BIER-TE architecture, the BIER-TE domain must be homogeneous, i.e. all=
> nodes must be BFRs. That would highly likely not allow easy brownfield=
> deployment as BIER-TE may require new HW. The multi-layer approach wil= l
> only require limited upgrade of HW in the domain to add BIER functiona= lity
> (assuming that the domain is already using MPLS in its data plane).
| 4.8.2.=C2=A0 Supporting nodes without BIER-TE
|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Routed adjacencies also enable incremental deployment of BIE= R-TE.
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the nodes through which BIER-TE traffic needs to be ste= ered -
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with or without replication - need to support BIER-TE.=C2=A0= Where they
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are not directly connected to each other, forward_routed adj= acencies
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are used to pass over non BIER-TE enabled nodes.
|
| 8.=C2=A0 BIER-TE and Segment Routing
|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Segment Routing aims to achieve lightweight path engineering= via
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 loose source routing.=C2=A0 Compared for example to RSVP-TE,= it does not
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require per-path signaling to each of these hops.
|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER-TE is supports the same design philosophy for multicast= .=C2=A0 Like
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in SR, it relies on source-routing - via the definition of a=
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BitString.=C2=A0 Like SR, it only requires to consider the &= quot;hops" on which
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 either replication has to happen, or across which the traffi= c should
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be steered (even without replication).=C2=A0 Any other hops = can be skipped
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 via the use of routed adjacencies.
|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Instead of defining BitPositions for non-replicating hops, i= t is
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 equally possible to use segment routing encapsulations (eg: = MPLS
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 label stacks) for "forward_routed" adjacencies.
Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to
only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed.
= GIM>> Not with BIER-TE model.=C2=A0

What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a bit= whether or
how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for imposition/dispositi= on,
so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia):

A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE for= warding
=C2=A0 plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which lat= er BFRs will see
=C2=A0 to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only th= at first replicating
=C2=A0 BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the = BFIR just does this
=C2=A0 imposition and sends an MPLS packet.
B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or even= for the same
=C2=A0 SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case=C2=A0 the forward= ing plane
=C2=A0 would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A).= Aka:
=C2=A0 These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list.=
C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the encap<= br> =C2=A0 would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The remote= -adjacency
=C2=A0 on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack= that
=C2=A0 not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that dispo= sition label.
=C2=A0 Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this labe= l -> dispose
=C2=A0 of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) a= nd pass the rest to
=C2=A0 IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz"
GIM>= > If, as you say, "BFER-TE support could be avoided" by using = segment routing in the underlay, then why do we need BIER-TE? You just re-s= tated my point, thank you.=C2=A0

> If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneou= s
> domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would = you
> agree?

See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need t= o use it,
and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate.

In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the examp= le of
a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few edge = routers
each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations of (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate in th= e
receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may have eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics ring di= rection).

Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of requirem= ents,
but of course i am happy to write down an example.=C2=A0 I was just hoping = that examples
of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be rather a n= ice
follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc.

The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully prog= rammable forwarding
plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're defini= ng
"opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i wo= uld certainly like to suggest
that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
> > Greg:
> >
> > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear:
> > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traf= fic,
> > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy
> > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in<= br> > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live=
> > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast
> > requirements will be more than typical unicast).
> >
> > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provid= e an
> > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as = the
> > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it pr= ovides
> > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight
> > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of=
> > BIER and expanding its architecture.
> >
> > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting ot= her
> > functions, but i am not relating to those.
> >
> > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft<= br> > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more<= br> > > detailed. Pls. let me know.
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al,
> > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpfu= l first to
> > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer= , if any.
> > >
> > > Ice,
> > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'top= ology', but
> > you've
> > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protec= tion, may be
> > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport netwo= rk. And segment
> > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one us= es
> > distributed
> > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary is= sue.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Toerless,
> > > >
> > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("= path engineering")
> > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help.= If you want
> > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies= , etc. pp.
> > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-)
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo
> > r_a_problem
> > > >
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > Thx,
> > > >
> > > > Ice.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > BIER= @ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/bier
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de<= /a>
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--94eb2c0ba988553b1d0556a6e190-- From nobody Sun Aug 13 21:15:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18083124234 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8AJyblpBAfH for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3DB41241F5 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377D858C4B1; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 06:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1694BB0C8A0; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 06:14:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 06:14:58 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Mirsky Cc: bier@ietf.org, IJsbrand Wijnands , hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Message-ID: <20170814041458.GA25302@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:15:09 -0000 In-line On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:40:27AM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > Hi Toerless, > > > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in BIER > > > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues when > > > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered transport > > > network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, MPLS data > > > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. > > > > Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approach > > > GIM>> I don't think that there's need to describe how to construct per BIER > sub-domain BIRTs. And with that one can have traffic engineered sub-domains > of his/her liking. And choosing among them is as simple as choosing which > sub-domain to use for forwarding. I think there is. I am still very much guessing what you are suggesting, and you did not comment the extensive explanations i provided you in my prior answers. If you want to establish static, non-IGP driven BIRT, that should be written down as a deployment model. Especially if you want to support N alterntive paths/"trees" through the network. This requires N * BIRT and this can easily become a lot more aggregate BIRT state in routers than what you would get with BIER-TE. And how do you udate the state when topology changes happen. This is all quite non-obvious IMHO. > > Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to > > only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed. > > > GIM>> Not with BIER-TE model. Yes, with BIER-TE model. > > What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a > > bit whether or > > how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for > > imposition/disposition, > > so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia): > > > > A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE > > forwarding > > plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which later > > BFRs will see > > to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only that > > first replicating > > BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the BFIR > > just does this > > imposition and sends an MPLS packet. > > B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or > > even for the same > > SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case the forwarding plane > > would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A). Aka: > > These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list. > > C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the encap > > would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The > > remote-adjacency > > on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack that > > not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that > > disposition label. > > Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this label -> > > dispose > > of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) and > > pass the rest to > > IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz" > > > GIM>> If, as you say, "BFER-TE support could be avoided" by using segment > routing in the underlay, then why do we need BIER-TE? You just re-stated my > point, thank you. Please read what i have written. I have been adressing your prior email concerns about incremental deployability. The sentence you referred to out of context said "On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if..." ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ Woth SR, you can avoid supporting/enabling BIER-TE on nodes that only need to steer, but not replicate. With both SR and BIER-TE, you do not need to change state in midpoints when you want to change steering/replication. With your proposal "provisioned BIRT", that would much more likely be necessary. Does my explanation help to understand how BIER-TE is only required on the nodes where replication is desired ? If not, then maybe we could have a higher bandwidth channel to solve the misundertanding. Cheers Toerless > > > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only homogeneous > > > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. Would you > > > agree? > > > > See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need to use > > it, > > and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate. > > > > In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the > > example of > > a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few edge > > routers > > each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations of > > (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate in > > the > > receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may have > > eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics ring > > direction). > > > > Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of > > requirements, > > but of course i am happy to write down an example. I was just hoping that > > examples > > of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be rather a > > nice > > follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc. > > > > The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully > > programmable forwarding > > plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're defining > > "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i would > > certainly like to suggest > > that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > Regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > > Greg: > > > > > > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > > > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering traffic, > > > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > > > > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > > > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > > > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > > > > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > > > > > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide an > > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as the > > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it provides > > > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > > > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > > > > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > > > > > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting other > > > > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > > > > > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > > > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > > > > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful first > > to > > > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if any. > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', but > > > > you've > > > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, > > may be > > > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And > > segment > > > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > > > > distributed > > > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path engineering") > > > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you want > > > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > > > > r_a_problem > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Aug 14 11:59:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A6D1323D7 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JYp91Dl4Pm-a for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8251323FD for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d17so43572889lfe.0 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CNLcSNKjmdnoRmMbM2uNAwpm71SflEr6RGiYPPDbJOQ=; b=BPMGuuGeipjieymutQUnxhyxZPUf/4Eq39NAxpW2z4CDRx+Nzh98ZDtL9k2+NtsphO TVv7ZSNfSVVrCyJeenKwd+Vp+I/VphFjsC7p9g6YsvdXfUkyOGCKefXEPmRHF5AoSmA1 Y/swdFAXSoYfSCWAqiysplkGB9gZPjD9wudiDrqkx8u+Iw7uZFqjBWOvtNSNpvjktJ8X 5OogeO5I7DexuMfCmzy1YiwPBRix2KmwfL+kk90W1J/KjPa0IZ4Zn+KuAb6CzvJLviq4 HZFASoYCt4opEIN3vfKzmeqtXAIU8/jsnJkL3+eAghFi7OWDqrr58DetVHIQWkcEhdw2 jfjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CNLcSNKjmdnoRmMbM2uNAwpm71SflEr6RGiYPPDbJOQ=; b=cS6uxRcMIng5dhqzzn6u7MHkrrB/fsdFEnVd6pGVB3DiicvF1XCYg93F3TU9fkXROu CYAOLoN9IbEl8pbU98gGMXFgrY4fwwYySayUOaK4jBtkahfirJz4KsrPSGzu+eOED8mc GrvXD1BakRw4/pzoiFdLyBlslBa3QHSeliYvqhFnIakHIk1PopfpH5YquimaRY/47qCz xPgqfU1tCp2ZrLVVA4rOdgfvyRM+PWAdyiY87L/DgVi7ypDtuO7w38IhrRR+mSd1aP10 +kIlnOSzV85l3ibj1AawCr7e+al4FGPY4j+ektVuy94SSUtewHnizFkaOSHKVMS+Xz7W D+Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5hGpSRxmCJJoL2oxWhBohImcYuGX4TcYDlFxpLdYZO1AM8oEuPE 00CeMMsFxZJO0itzPaki1c6IljmsTA== X-Received: by 10.46.2.74 with SMTP id 71mr8130326ljc.1.1502737153641; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.88.81 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170814041458.GA25302@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201708021139076906483@zte.com.cn> <20170808170859.GA24983@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <35E854C1-69F6-442D-8C18-A57C85F4F977@cisco.com> <20170809170340.GA29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170809211853.GE29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170810144311.GF29311@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20170814041458.GA25302@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:59:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: bier@ietf.org, IJsbrand Wijnands , hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0ba9883bd0e90556bb42f6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comment on BIER-TE X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:59:20 -0000 --94eb2c0ba9883bd0e90556bb42f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Toerless, thank you for the continued discussion. I hope it is interesting to others as well even though we may moved from the original question - Adopt or not to adopt? Please find my notes in-lined and tagged GIM2>>. Regards, Greg On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > In-line > > On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:40:27AM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing paradigm in > BIER > > > > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious issues > when > > > > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engineered > transport > > > > network constructed using the segment routing with, for example, > MPLS data > > > > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER. > > > > > > Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution approach > > > > > GIM>> I don't think that there's need to describe how to construct per > BIER > > sub-domain BIRTs. And with that one can have traffic engineered > sub-domains > > of his/her liking. And choosing among them is as simple as choosing which > > sub-domain to use for forwarding. > > I think there is. I am still very much guessing what you are suggesting, > and you > did not comment the extensive explanations i provided you in my prior > answers. If you want to establish static, non-IGP driven BIRT, that should > be > written down as a deployment model. Especially if you want to support N > alterntive paths/"trees" through the network. This requires N * BIRT and > this > can easily become a lot more aggregate BIRT state in routers than what you > would get with BIER-TE. And how do you udate the state when topology > changes > happen. This is all quite non-obvious IMHO. > GIM2>> I haven't stated that IGP would not play role. And if by "static" you mean "instantiated by an SDN controller", then yes, that is plausible. But we know how to build VPNs, L3VPN in particular. Why the same approach, BGP or EVPN, not to use for BIER sub-domains? And support of N VPNs doesn't seem as major problem these days either. As for updating the state when underlay network changes, then we should consider this as multi-layer network. Firstly, the underlay may be protected thus minimizing packet loss in the overlay. And since the underlay is TE, we should use restoration in the underlay as well which will preserve required characteristics for the overlay network. > > > > Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is to > > > only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed. > > > > > GIM>> Not with BIER-TE model. > > Yes, with BIER-TE model. > > > > What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discuss is a > > > bit whether or > > > how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for > > > imposition/disposition, > > > so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Alia): > > > > > > A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full BIER-TE > > > forwarding > > > plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque header (which > later > > > BFRs will see > > > to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicating BFR. Only > that > > > first replicating > > > BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding semantics., the > BFIR > > > just does this > > > imposition and sends an MPLS packet. > > > B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different SI or > > > even for the same > > > SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case the forwarding > plane > > > would just need to be programmed with multiple adjacencies as in A). > Aka: > > > These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP multicast OIF list. > > > C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if the > encap > > > would provide some form of BIER-header disposition label. The > > > remote-adjacency > > > on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg: SR label stack > that > > > not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also includes that > > > disposition label. > > > Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be "see this label -> > > > dispose > > > of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet (BIER header) > and > > > pass the rest to > > > IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz" > > > > > GIM>> If, as you say, "BFER-TE support could be avoided" by using segment > > routing in the underlay, then why do we need BIER-TE? You just re-stated > my > > point, thank you. > > Please read what i have written. I have been adressing your prior email > concerns about incremental deployability. The sentence you referred to out > of context said "On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be > avoided if..." > ^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^ > > Woth SR, you can avoid supporting/enabling BIER-TE on nodes that only need > to steer, > but not replicate. With both SR and BIER-TE, you do not need to change > state > in midpoints when you want to change steering/replication. With your > proposal > "provisioned BIRT", that would much more likely be necessary. > > Does my explanation help to understand how BIER-TE is only required on > the nodes where replication is desired ? If not, then maybe we could > have a higher bandwidth channel to solve the misundertanding. > GIM2>> I think I understand BIER-TE model and I believe that BIER+SR can achieve the same results though by building underlay with more constrains. Thus I don't see the value in BIER-TE work. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > > > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only > homogeneous > > > > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selection. > Would you > > > > agree? > > > > > > See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you need to > use > > > it, > > > and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate. > > > > > > In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting the > > > example of > > > a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a few > edge > > > routers > > > each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinations > of > > > (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and replicate > in > > > the > > > receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it may > have > > > eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffics > ring > > > direction). > > > > > > Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set of > > > requirements, > > > but of course i am happy to write down an example. I was just hoping > that > > > examples > > > of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be > rather a > > > nice > > > follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc. > > > > > > The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the fully > > > programmable forwarding > > > plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they're > defining > > > "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not, then i would > > > certainly like to suggest > > > that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Greg: > > > > > > > > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear: > > > > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for steering > traffic, > > > > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allows easy > > > > > controller define live-live multicast without having to bring in > > > > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network (live-live > > > > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multicast > > > > > requirements will be more than typical unicast). > > > > > > > > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed to provide > an > > > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same goals as > the > > > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unicast, it > provides > > > > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable lightweight > > > > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle concepts of > > > > > BIER and expanding its architecture. > > > > > > > > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also supporting > other > > > > > functions, but i am not relating to those. > > > > > > > > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the current draft > > > > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above text or more > > > > > detailed. Pls. let me know. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > > > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al, > > > > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may be helpful > first > > > to > > > > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at BIER layer, if > any. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > we may have slightly different terminology in using 'topology', > but > > > > > you've > > > > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well as protection, > > > may be > > > > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. transport network. And > > > segment > > > > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whether one uses > > > > > distributed > > > > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - secondary issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands < > ice@cisco.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineering ("path > engineering") > > > > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will not help. If you > want > > > > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N topologies, etc. pp. > > > > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo > > > > > r_a_problem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --94eb2c0ba9883bd0e90556bb42f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless,
thank you for the continued discussion. I= hope it is interesting to others as well even though we may moved from the= original question - Adopt or not to adopt?
Please find my notes = in-lined and tagged GIM2>>.

Regards,
Greg

On S= un, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wr= ote:
In-line

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:40:27AM -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > Hi Toerless,
> > > though the goal perhaps was to introduce segment routing par= adigm in BIER
> > > architecture, the BIER-TE, in my opinion, does have serious = issues when
> > > comparing to a solution that overlays BIER on traffic engine= ered transport
> > > network constructed using the segment routing with, for exam= ple, MPLS data
> > > plane. I'll refer to the latter as multi-layer TEed BIER= .
> >
> > Do you have pointers to any document describing that solution app= roach
> >
> GIM>> I don't think that there's need to describe how to= construct per BIER
> sub-domain BIRTs. And with that one can have traffic engineered sub-do= mains
> of his/her liking. And choosing among them is as simple as choosing wh= ich
> sub-domain to use for forwarding.

I think there is. I am still very much guessing what you are suggest= ing, and you
did not comment the extensive explanations i provided you in my prior
answers. If you want to establish static, non-IGP driven BIRT, that should = be
written down as a deployment model. Especially if you want to support N
alterntive paths/"trees" through the network. This requires N * B= IRT and this
can easily become a lot more aggregate BIRT state in routers than what you<= br> would get with BIER-TE. And how do you udate the state when topology change= s
happen. This is all quite non-obvious IMHO.
GIM2>&g= t; I haven't stated that IGP would not play role. And if by "stati= c" you mean "instantiated by an SDN controller", then yes, t= hat is plausible. But we know how to build VPNs, L3VPN in particular. Why t= he same approach, BGP or EVPN, not to use for BIER sub-domains? And support= of N VPNs doesn't seem as major problem these days either. As for upda= ting the state when underlay network changes, then we should consider this = as multi-layer network. Firstly, the underlay may be protected thus minimiz= ing packet loss in the overlay. And since the underlay is TE, we should use= restoration in the underlay as well which will preserve required character= istics for the overlay network.

> > Aka: the maximum bit-saving and minimum HW-deployment option is t= o
> > only deploy it for nodes where replication is needed.
> >
> GIM>> Not with BIER-TE model.

Yes, with BIER-TE model.

> > What the existing text i think misses to discuss yet is to discus= s is a
> > bit whether or
> > how much BIER-TE BFIR and BFER need to supprt, eg: for
> > imposition/disposition,
> > so that needs to be more detailed (in line with my promise to Ali= a):
> >
> > A) On a BFIR, imposition does not mean the need to support full B= IER-TE
> > forwarding
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0plane semantic. Just the imposition of some opaque he= ader (which later
> > BFRs will see
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0to be BIER) and (eg: SR) label to the first replicati= ng BFR. Only that
> > first replicating
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0BFR would need to understand the BIER-TE forwarding s= emantics., the BFIR
> > just does this
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0imposition and sends an MPLS packet.
> > B) If the BFIR needs to send multiple packets, eg: for different = SI or
> > even for the same
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0SI, but multiple remote next-hop BFR: IN this case=C2= =A0 the forwarding plane
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0would just need to be programmed with multiple adjace= ncies as in A). Aka:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0These adjacencies could simply be part of the IP mult= icast OIF list.
> > C) On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be avoided if = the encap
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0would provide some form of BIER-header disposition la= bel. The
> > remote-adjacency
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the preultimate hop would then simply have the eg:= SR label stack that
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0not only steers the packet to the BFER, but also incl= udes that
> > disposition label.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: The BFERs functionaly would just have to be &quo= t;see this label ->
> > dispose
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0of some magic N-byte junk at the start of the packet = (BIER header) and
> > pass the rest to
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0IP (multicast) routing in VRF xyz"
> >
> GIM>> If, as you say, "BFER-TE support could be avoided&quo= t; by using segment
> routing in the underlay, then why do we need BIER-TE? You just re-stat= ed my
> point, thank you.

Please read what i have written. I have been adressing your pri= or email
concerns about incremental deployability. The sentence you referred to out<= br> of context said "On a BFER, support for BIER-TE forwarding could be av= oided if..."
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^

Woth SR, you can avoid supporting/enabling BIER-TE on nodes that only need = to steer,
but not replicate. With both SR and BIER-TE, you do not need to change stat= e
in midpoints when you want to change steering/replication. With your propos= al
"provisioned BIRT", that would much more likely be necessary.

Does my explanation help to understand how BIER-TE is only required on
the nodes where replication is desired ? If not, then maybe we could
have a higher bandwidth channel to solve the misundertanding.
GIM2>> I think I understand BIER-TE model and I believe that = BIER+SR can achieve the same results though by building underlay with more = constrains. Thus I don't see the value in BIER-TE work.=C2=A0

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

> > > If you consider relaxing requirement to use BIER-TE in only = homogeneous
> > > domains, then, I believe, you lose control over path selecti= on. Would you
> > > agree?
> >
> > See above. Its really like SR. Only need to support where you nee= d to use
> > it,
> > and use really means in BIER-TE where you want to replicate.
> >
> > In the picture i pained for Hu in the SI thread, i was suggesting= the
> > example of
> > a large network with edge areas and a core, interconnected with a= few edge
> > routers
> > each, and yu want to steer traffic maybe across specific combinat= ions of
> > (ingres-edge-2-core-routerX, core-2-egres-edge-routerY) and repli= cate in
> > the
> > receiver edge area also with explicit path selection because it m= ay have
> > eg: rings (like in MSO networks) where you want to control traffi= cs ring
> > direction).
> >
> > Hard to suggest the best setups without a specific topology/set o= f
> > requirements,
> > but of course i am happy to write down an example.=C2=A0 I was ju= st hoping that
> > examples
> > of such controller strategies how to allocate bits etc. would be = rather a
> > nice
> > follow up document instead of bloating the architecture doc.
> >
> > The model of BIER-TE is really very much in spirit also with the = fully
> > programmable forwarding
> > plane directions happening in unicast (SRv6 etc). I hope they'= ;re defining
> > "opaque header imposition/disposition" actions, if not,= then i would
> > certainly like to suggest
> > that if/once BIER-TE was a WG item.
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> >
> > > Regards,
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Greg:
> > > >
> > > > I think that the use-cases for BIER-TE are pretty clear= :
> > > > It is at least the same ones as the ones SR has for ste= ering traffic,
> > > > just for multicast traffic. On top of it, it also allow= s easy
> > > > controller define live-live multicast without having to= bring in
> > > > complex new routing protocol like MRT into the network = (live-live
> > > > is rarely a unicast requirement, so this is where multi= cast
> > > > requirements will be more than typical unicast).
> > > >
> > > > The goals of the designs are also clear: It is designed= to provide an
> > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2MP for multicast with the same= goals as the
> > > > evolution from RSVP-TE/P2P to SR. Aka: like SR for unic= ast, it provides
> > > > for multicast traffic engineering in a comparable light= weight
> > > > signaling and state fashion as SR using the principle c= oncepts of
> > > > BIER and expanding its architecture.
> > > >
> > > > Of coure, SR is now a more inclusive framework also sup= porting other
> > > > functions, but i am not relating to those.
> > > >
> > > > If any of this is not clear enough to you from the curr= ent draft
> > > > text, i am happy to improve this according to above tex= t or more
> > > > detailed. Pls. let me know.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2017 at 12:29:15PM -0700, Greg Mirsky w= rote:
> > > > > Hi Toerless, Ice, et. al,
> > > > > I think that we arrived to realization that it may= be helpful first
> > to
> > > > > formulate the problem, requirements towards TE at = BIER layer, if any.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ice,
> > > > > we may have slightly different terminology in usin= g 'topology', but
> > > > you've
> > > > > captured my message - traffic engineering, as well= as protection,
> > may be
> > > > > better achieved in BIER's underlay, i.e. trans= port network. And
> > segment
> > > > > routing with MPLS dataplane may fit the bill. Whet= her one uses
> > > > distributed
> > > > > control plane or central controller, e.g. PCE - se= condary issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 11:51 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands= <ice@cisco.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Toerless,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now if you want to use traffic-engineeri= ng ("path engineering")
> > > > > > > to do steiner trees, IGP topologies will= not help. If you want
> > > > > > > to do N-path load-splitting, you need N = topologies, etc. pp.
> > > > > > > "Your mileage will vary" ;-) > > > > > >
> > > > > > https://en= .wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Solutions_looking_fo
> > > > r_a_problem
> > > > > >
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thx,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________________= _______
> > > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > > > BIER@ietf.or= g
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/bier
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ---
> > > > tte@cs.fau.de
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--94eb2c0ba9883bd0e90556bb42f6-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 11:38:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FF21323A0 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2GlNL48-_5XC for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D7FE132398 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id g35so6078470ioi.3 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=7JqmPQ0dwNSqWyaXMH1MvrMBkdKHA31lRMfp8raiWdk=; b=rfCPQ03qDme226/cQM/3Xhacz2gbvrkFRxm943l7Ov/ecxI4ljeKNiRBRMdqxZVlry BsAz7vOSCpvPXOyT5QIUg4F8VW+jj6pNxurzSDn6D/IYbiPxvJTxoACBBexxEKbpmyTg od/vJl5LKE4HqhuYWHZ1UKOBjCvgbkVCn0z8uYD7dCHsa3ne/BnTbbCU1pUYxVAgWN+G Z0LxQMh9s9bClXoT4lc0Sk61V+RufjBcsiy/PQGEgvzcplUAPJW3XvHHiNYNGOK0SJdM W1ebqe5o0VVEpyvly+MWlsI+3UZ4cXyqYCzkFaTU0ncsbKLVZgLzWEWyL44X6x+SqeGi MF3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7JqmPQ0dwNSqWyaXMH1MvrMBkdKHA31lRMfp8raiWdk=; b=VLcAtzqsD0Z567U02SQ+iGFxRHOpgevDhRbBLnTgQvhjV/LjVwoFzyk1SRrxoJYeyy nN45RZ5f8xe535/MFKtPE2+29MZjSbvAQM9No8LVmBt3AQBtdfZHo6w6pTSW8UZ1Nkd2 V0cwc0z+9/uP0/tv4Xfa/F5J0WwrubeYP+IBdwEOHoOmzKxtMvBmY51bPefURlkoutkh SfjqnrzZdXkZoqsyvFIlrCjqTwmdIGD/en4WhicQIC/I8nmB2WbqG+Zg6VlR18f9cL7B 57ZmmFHvzZAqzDWZUpFkmOcQR8jlq4kMoxTPlVxxN0QbQE+aVrcxmi8gKY3CW5UniYz1 prIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw11132A81aNTTO/CHia+/ZCw8rLnbsDKzBhNZnKUR78/xHQa5vMmY CtodPVESqI2ua1RHxIWDIkz0b8mXYw== X-Received: by 10.107.138.69 with SMTP id m66mr21579993iod.234.1502822307749; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.89.86 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f2dbad066670556cf150e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for Adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 18:38:30 -0000 --001a113f2dbad066670556cf150e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Solid support to adopt. Will the authors please update the name. Thanks, Greg On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room for draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so > let's take the call to the list. Please read and respond for or against > support for WG adoption. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-evpn/ > > Thanks, > Greg > --001a113f2dbad066670556cf150e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Solid support to adopt.=C2=A0

Will the = authors please update the name.

Thanks,
= Greg

O= n Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
There was sol= id support in the room for=C2=A0draft-zzhang-bier-evpn-00, so let's take the call to the list. Please= read=C2=A0and respond for or against support for WG adoption.
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.800000190734863px">

<= div>Thanks,
Greg

--001a113f2dbad066670556cf150e-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 11:39:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9DB1323A0 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8F7Z95ocUPg for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22a.google.com (mail-io0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 060EE132398 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id c74so6079368iod.4 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=f9LUMKfYyvVqfai8xM9N1feOzCsS/NTzegUIJDWUj38=; b=Aj4YCPoCX3W+kRhfo31IpoVFkYABZeJUUN1NHhXThfZqIuClcJPzgAFcDmILrrzB34 5YHz3UGXgFv5o25NbFGy5MNTmTxkUARscYY33FLTDq71LwSqKSwG//dvFIyMqHFcVZSB 8d/EyLybhIQpurrWnl3j6P8I34hbTMKT9Ae22cdoplWGRiGpEnKZ3K57MYua+EDrabuu Oq2eAGbayLOp/9yT5IY3VAvlkB8WByvRzKJPYpng5cRjdXowIyQtzb+C4s7zkaveCnTk EWapN+fUINWGV3iQnKgXZ6iUcTTjinmmVNf+535s09dZrb4kFao1iZH6p3zbNPnm4BYH d99w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=f9LUMKfYyvVqfai8xM9N1feOzCsS/NTzegUIJDWUj38=; b=cUR1TijIfWkR249P7Kd/AbQc1tUtwhYgsQIzAvUNWohk31Qn1hPrPQGl4uMY2kVw5n Mcv+MVnS7Y5O2KMhvVlzBcVvXf323exiEjhz72XBGmWWgvi+X8hoNlwiyXKaQFD9i3FU vK03mFiFXZLJWBVxvbKTk7F4ShfsWxapqfgCg/MsQerw51rvA+6nhSWrAocOC9VgZEFD 3zKJYjcWnLd1q2WPCsby6b0n06APrB8AN+TqMQA7imrBeUpUhosjBmdpJqISHh1yd9OJ ct33gQb7aGRPHEibKIR71nInoQG+AL53GFMbGVAx4ErIrMS3j2iBNMzMtDIyFHAEaFle cS6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5haH8pEUgUZTbtHi9Y07olV/lj9SLNpEec05fCyQ7su7Qt8kM9F SVKDfX+IN6gQTjoQu+PaqoEr4O6lXA== X-Received: by 10.107.55.135 with SMTP id e129mr21906436ioa.166.1502822360305; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.89.86 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 11:39:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114ac938f257560556cf18fa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG Adoption: draft-pfister-bier-mld-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 18:39:23 -0000 --001a114ac938f257560556cf18fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Solid support to adopt from the WG. Will the authors please update the name to reflect adoption. Thanks, Greg On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > WG, > > As per a show of hands in the room in Chicago, there was support to adopt: > draft-pfister-bier-mld-00 > > Let this email be a call to the list to solicit input on adoption the > draft as a WG item. Please read, review and respond to this thread: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pfister-bier-mld-00 > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > --001a114ac938f257560556cf18fa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Solid support to adopt from the WG.

Wil= l the authors please update the name to reflect adoption.

Thanks,
Greg

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjs= hep@gmail.com> wrote:
WG,

As per a show of hands in the room in Ch= icago, there was support to adopt:
draft-pfister-bier-mld-00

Let this email be a call to the list to solicit input = on adoption the draft as a WG item. Please read, review and respond to this= thread:


Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)

--001a114ac938f257560556cf18fa-- From nobody Tue Aug 15 17:13:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320281323C3; Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:13:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150284238306.12455.9086041948592127374@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:13:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-evpn-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 00:13:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : EVPN BUM Using BIER Authors : Zhaohui Zhang Antoni Przygienda Ali Sajassi Jorge Rabadan Filename : draft-ietf-bier-evpn-00.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2017-08-15 Abstract: This document specifies protocols and procedures for forwarding broadcast, unknown unicast and multicast (BUM) traffic of Ethernet VPNs (EVPN) using Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-evpn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-evpn-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-evpn-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Aug 18 08:35:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A961321BB; Fri, 18 Aug 2017 08:35:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: akatlas@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org, tonysietf@gmail.com, bier-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.58.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150307050367.14011.10542395297732561750.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 08:35:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] bier - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 15:35:04 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Tony Przygienda, a Chair of the bier working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Tony Przygienda Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: ospf isis idr pim rtgwg Second Priority: bess spring Third Priority: detnet homenet grow sfc People who must be present: Tony Przygienda Greg Shepherd Alia Atlas Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------