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bmVyIHdlIG1ha2UgdGhlIGRlY2lzaW9uIHRvIGRvIGl0IHRoZSBiZXR0ZXIgYXMgaXQNCj4gcmVk dWNlcyB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHBlb3BsZSB3aG8gd2lsbCBkbyBpdCB3cm9uZy4NCj4gDQo+IE5v dyB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIHNob3VsZCBkbyB0aGlzIG9yIG5vdCBpcyBhIGdvb2QgcXVlc3Rpb24gZm9y IHRoZSBDQk9SIFdHDQo+IHRvIGxvb2sgYXQuDQo+IA0KPiAoSeKAmXZlIGFkZGVkIHRoZSBXRyBi YWNrIHRvIHRoZSByZWNpcGllbnQgbGlzdC4pDQo+IA0KPiBHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuDQo+IA0K PiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4g Y29yZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gY29yZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2NvcmUNCg== From nobody Thu Oct 5 04:24:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C361342CC for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 04:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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(protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=francesca.palombini@ericsson.com; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Oct 2017 11:23:19.5300 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2539 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Sa0iTYRTHed7LfB0un5bmwRJrRJHpTCsaJWYSpIEgEeGlyJFvKqmzvWYa fZjJasy8hEop2DQkyZGRWlqZ6UiXUGrek+mUdF6m+SU1MbRt74K+/c7//A/n/B8ehhTn0d5M Snomq0yXp0oEQqo8pvlAwKGdw7GHP9fRsnLNI0pmNt4JIyJqataJiMJ2LR1NxAlDEtnUlCxW GRiaIEyunSknMkzC7JmaNlKFWoRa5MoAPgoTTWpCi4SMGH9CUKlfFvCFEYGu/ittd1G4gISO 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header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KT-SpxgJitbI for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2245313307B for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_026C_01D33DBA.7B363D80" Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1507220127; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=c2hArlCzF0MGpJTiJa7jklJ4ltYdEXQB/x2pUD1N/nE=; b=d/9TD9XHioysLXpe0OTMBu4gLqR2ZjXiNrdKoujrw86EuPXgNx5zSYe00wNngIQVaLodPq5J+wS js02iVlVZt8vhCH1vrt86t5tnkYE/IxK12ZVkpwBIgrdmR2RpeKV0dAlEMoTqXv53R0SJrivHSXdV sweiCyywUIgoY8WCNuXQyJD9Um6Tn3Oo1Jk82c+lsi9Eo1Y9ukJ+/3zdnnZjJhIkXOWspg1JEu3SL ABOZMWxGQmMxuKwyJM/R6NNsBvROTEpX/Wqw7hv9qwaSL4Gym6lE/vre6JiDrqkgnxvStE2VtzPsl M8a07fOHQTOCxKbe2adhp9FJXXYIO2TWPXKQ== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:15:26 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (192.168.1.162) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:14:37 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Francesca Palombini' , References: <3FFCD42B-C1DE-43E3-A06D-608CACD55D86@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:15:23 -0700 Message-ID: <026b01d33df5$27919310$76b4b930$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGj3fF8wyHPCFZvH3Ek15yu4fStEgIraHBcAXBelH0CK9krsAHFg4ltovfECJA= X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.162] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 16:15:35 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_026C_01D33DBA.7B363D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My opinion on this issue is that the open choice only matches if there = is not an explicit choice with that value in the map. It is the = intention that this is what is there and if you have a fast parser which = check types, then it should fail. The code is going to presume that the = value with tag 4 is an int and should not get surprised in the middle of = processing, it should fail during validation if the parser is that = smart. =20 Thus { ?4=3D>int, * =3D>any} should fail for { = 4:=E2=80=9Dtext=E2=80=9D}=20 =20 Jim =20 =20 From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Francesca = Palombini Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 3:53 AM To: Carsten Bormann ; cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps =20 Sorry, early sent. The opinion I=E2=80=99d like to hear from the working = group: is cuts something we want to consider putting in at this point? Francesca =20 From: Francesca Palombini=20 Sent: den 5 oktober 2017 12:51 To: 'Jeffrey Yasskin' >; Carsten Bormann > Cc: Kevin Braun >; = cbor@ietf.org =20 Subject: RE: [Cbor] Validation of maps =20 Agreed with Jeffrey. =20 Reviving this thread to ask the opinion from the working group:=20 =20 From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Yasskin Sent: den 20 juli 2017 03:16 To: Carsten Bormann > Cc: Kevin Braun >; = cbor@ietf.org =20 Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps =20 By the time CDDL makes it to an RFC, we should be answering questions = like this by quoting normative text from = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl-11#secti= on-3.5, not just pointing at examples. =20 Jeffrey =20 On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Carsten Bormann > wrote: Hi Kevin, > I know the question of more formally specifying validation rules = already came up. One would think map validation would be fairly = obvious, but what happens when key types overlap? > > For example, I think the intention is that if you have > > top =3D { 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } > > then the key 4 must be present with an integer value, Right, that is the only way to match the first field. (And there is no way to have that as well as another /4/ key with a text = string value.) > and you can have any number of other integer keys with text string = values. Okay, but what about: > > top =3D { ? 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } > > We might say this means that if a key of 4 appears, then it must have = an int value. Or, does it allow a key of 4 to appear with a text string = value while considering the optional "4 =3D> int" as being absent? Yes, that is the semantics. It is not always what a specifier might = intend. The reason is that the map opens a choice point. A member with key 4 is = starting to match the field. If the value however does not match = (because there is no int), the matcher falls back to the choice point. = It then tries the other field, and indeed, that matches. In the research underlying CDDL, we have discussed = =E2=80=9Ccuts=E2=80=9D (a concept from error handling in Parse = Expression Grammars (PEGs)) as the solution to this. If ^ represents a = cut, write: top =3D { ? 4 ^ =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } Once the 4 matches, there is no way back; for this member, another match = is no longer tried. A nice side effect is that anything except an int after a key of 4 can = give a definite error message of =E2=80=9Cint expected=E2=80=9D. The cut proposal includes : as an abbreviation for ^=3D>, so you can = simply write: top =3D { ? 4: int, *int =3D> tstr } > Given the examples in the spec, I guess the intention is for such a = thing to mean the key 4, if present, has to have an int value. Which example leads you to this conclusion? > So, there is some kind of "match the most specific key" rule implied = (I guess). Actually, the PEG semantics we have borrowed here is that the *first* = match is used. But only rules are matched that indeed match! > How that rule applies in more complex situations (where there is some = kind of nesting) probably needs to be spelled out.... Given: > > top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ? ( 5 =3D> 5, 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr } > > Must keys 5 & 6 be present together, Yes. The whole group in the parentheses is optional. > or does the wildcard allow only one of them to appear? (That was an early semantics we tried, and it leads down the drain. It is much better to have a matcher that simply and stupidly follows = what=E2=80=99s in the grammar.) > Or, given: > > top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ( 5 =3D> 5 // 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr } > > does this mean { 1 : 1, 5 : 5, 6 : "hi" } is not valid? No. The first field eats the 1: 1, the second field only matches the 5: = 5, so the third field gets to eat zero or more int: tstr, of which 6: = =E2=80=9Chi=E2=80=9D is a match. > Is the 6 free to match the wildcard when the 5 has satisfied the group = choice? Yes. > > Then there are cases where "most specific key" has no meaning, (Again, we use =E2=80=9Cfirst match=E2=80=9D.) > such as when two key types overlap each other and neither is a = single-value type. Consider: > > top =3D { * (0..10) =3D> tstr, * (5..15) =3D> int } > > Does this mean a key of 5 can have either a text string or an int = value? As long as there are no cuts here, yes. > Or, does it require that a key of 5, if present, must have a value = that is both a text string and an int at the same time (i.e. it = disallows 5 to appear)? That would never be the semantics =E2=80=94 the fact that there are two = branches in a choice that can be fulfilled is not an error. With a cut like this: top =3D { * (0..10) ^ =3D> tstr, * (5..15) =3D> int } this could mean that key 0..10 cut the choice and therefore need to have = a text string value, while the rest, 11..15 can be integers, because the = choice is cut after matching 0..10. So far, we haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case that actually needed the cut, = but it is still nice to have that error message. (We also haven=E2=80=99t implemented it yet, although we will certainly = do that over time.) Another example where a cut helps: message =3D orderbeer / orderwine orderbeer =3D { type: =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D, ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D, } orderwine =3D { type: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D, color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D. } If you feed {=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D} into this, you get a = rather unspecific error message that tells you things don=E2=80=99t = match up =E2=80=94 the matcher can=E2=80=99t really know whether the = =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9Cwine" or the = =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D key is the =E2=80=9Ccause=E2=80=9D of neither = branch matching. If you add a cut: message =3D orderbeer / orderwine orderbeer =3D { type: =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D ^, ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D, } orderwine =3D { type: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D ^, color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D. } the matcher can tell you right away that the key = =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D is not allowed in an orderwine message. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor =20 ------=_NextPart_000_026C_01D33DBA.7B363D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My opinion = on this issue is that the open choice only matches if there is not an = explicit choice with that value in the map.=C2=A0 It is the intention = that this is what is there and if you have a fast parser which check = types, then it should fail.=C2=A0 The code is going to presume that the = value with tag 4 is an int and should not get surprised in the middle of = processing, it should fail during validation if the parser is that = smart.

 

Thus=C2=A0 { ?4=3D>int, * =3D>any}=C2=A0 should = fail for { 4:=E2=80=9Dtext=E2=80=9D}

 

Jim

 

 

From: CBOR = [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Francesca = Palombini
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 3:53 = AM
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; = cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of = maps

 

Sorry, early = sent. The opinion I=E2=80=99d like to hear from the working group: is = cuts something we want to consider putting in at this = point?


Francesca

 

From: = Francesca Palombini
Sent: den 5 oktober 2017 = 12:51
To: 'Jeffrey Yasskin' <jyasskin@chromium.org>; = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Kevin = Braun <kbraun@obj-sys.com>; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: RE: = [Cbor] Validation of maps

 

Agreed with Jeffrey.

 

Reviving this thread to ask the opinion from the = working group:

 

From: CBOR = [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Jeffrey Yasskin
Sent: den 20 juli 2017 = 03:16
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Kevin = Braun <kbraun@obj-sys.com>; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [Cbor] Validation of maps

 

By the = time CDDL makes it to an RFC, we should be answering questions like this = by quoting normative text from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cb= or-cddl-11#section-3.5, not just pointing at = examples.

 

Jeffrey

 

On Tue, = Jul 18, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

Hi Kevin,

> I know the question of = more formally specifying validation rules already came up.  One = would think map validation would be fairly obvious, but what happens = when key types overlap?
>
> For example, I think the = intention is that if you have
>
>   top =3D { 4 = =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr }
>
> then the key 4 must be = present with an integer value,

Right, that is the only way to = match the first field.
(And there is no way to have that as well as = another /4/ key with a text string value.)

> and you can have = any number of other integer keys with text string values. Okay, but what = about:
>
> top =3D { ? 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr = }
>
> We might say this means that if a key of 4 appears, = then it must have an int value.  Or, does it allow a key of 4 to = appear with a text string value while considering the optional "4 = =3D> int" as being absent?

Yes, that is the = semantics.  It is not always what a specifier might = intend.

The reason is that the map opens a choice point.  A = member with key 4 is starting to match the field.  If the value = however does not  match (because there is no int), the matcher = falls back to the choice point.  It then tries the other field, and = indeed, that matches.

In the research underlying CDDL, we have = discussed =E2=80=9Ccuts=E2=80=9D (a concept from error handling in Parse = Expression Grammars (PEGs)) as the solution to this.  If ^ = represents a cut, write:

top =3D { ? 4 ^ =3D> int, *int = =3D> tstr }

Once the 4 matches, there is no way back; for this = member, another match is no longer tried.
A nice side effect is that = anything except an int after a key of 4 can give a definite error = message of =E2=80=9Cint expected=E2=80=9D.
The cut proposal includes = : as an abbreviation for ^=3D>, so you can simply write:

top = =3D { ? 4: int, *int =3D> tstr }

> Given the examples in = the spec, I guess the intention is for such a thing to mean the key 4, = if present, has to have an int value.

Which example leads you to = this conclusion?

>  So, there is some kind of "match = the most specific key" rule implied (I guess).

Actually, the = PEG semantics we have borrowed here is that the *first* match is = used.  But only rules are matched that indeed match!

> = How that rule applies in more complex situations (where there is some = kind of nesting) probably needs to be spelled out....  = Given:
>
>   top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ? ( 5 =3D> = 5, 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr }
>
> Must keys 5 & = 6 be present together,

Yes.

The whole group in the = parentheses is optional.

> or does the wildcard allow only one = of them to appear?

(That was an early semantics we tried, and it = leads down the drain.
It is much better to have a matcher that simply = and stupidly follows what=E2=80=99s in the grammar.)

> Or, = given:
>
>   top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ( 5 =3D> 5 = // 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr }
>
> does this mean { 1 = : 1, 5 : 5, 6 : "hi" }  is not valid?

No.  = The first field eats the 1: 1, the second field only matches the 5: 5, = so the third field gets to eat zero or more int: tstr, of which 6: = =E2=80=9Chi=E2=80=9D is a match.

> Is the 6 free to match the = wildcard when the 5 has satisfied the group = choice?

Yes.

>
> Then there are cases where = "most specific key" has no meaning,

(Again, we use = =E2=80=9Cfirst match=E2=80=9D.)

> such as when two key types = overlap each other and neither is a single-value type.  = Consider:
>
>   top =3D { * (0..10) =3D> tstr, = * (5..15) =3D> int }
>
> Does this mean a key of 5 can = have either a text string or an int value?

As long as there are = no cuts here, yes.

> Or, does it require that a key of 5, if = present, must have a value that is both a text string and an int at the = same time (i.e. it disallows 5 to appear)?

That would never be = the semantics =E2=80=94 the fact that there are two branches in a choice = that can be fulfilled is not an error.

With a cut like = this:

top =3D { * (0..10) ^ =3D> tstr, * (5..15) =3D> int = }

this could mean that key 0..10 cut the choice and therefore = need to have a text string value, while the rest, 11..15 can be = integers, because the choice is cut after matching 0..10.

So far, = we haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case that actually needed the cut, but it = is still nice to have that error message.
(We also haven=E2=80=99t = implemented it yet, although we will certainly do that over = time.)

Another example where a cut helps:

message =3D = orderbeer / orderwine

orderbeer =3D {
  type: = =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D,
  ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / = =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D,
}

orderwine =3D {
  type: = =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D,
  color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / = =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D.
}

If you feed = {=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D} into this, you get a = rather unspecific error message that tells you things don=E2=80=99t = match up =E2=80=94 the matcher can=E2=80=99t really know whether the = =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9Cwine" or the = =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D key is the =E2=80=9Ccause=E2=80=9D of neither = branch matching.

If you add a cut:

message =3D orderbeer / = orderwine

orderbeer =3D {
  type: =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D = ^,
  ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / = =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D,
}

orderwine =3D {
  type: = =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D ^,
  color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / = =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D.
}

the matcher can tell you right away = that the key =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D is not allowed in an orderwine = message.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


_______________________________________________
= CBOR mailing list
CBOR@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor

 

------=_NextPart_000_026C_01D33DBA.7B363D80-- From nobody Thu Oct 5 09:19:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0E7134210 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:19:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gcbtIUwP2umt for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F8E133087 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1507220265; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=VYV17+4uT9Ck1vmM77ZCmBKGEZCM0lYKruQUPY2wlzA=; b=drYg94BIQLqrqya8MDUTwjQeVIvTLMA4bH5NsX2W+oatUtOVYFhmWL039kAZPcpBhVvqODvoonw u1l44Q5Xk7Q1KQjbF3D0xycZi4XG2QHEzvT9UlK4Q39uIeYinU3ZRZvlQFrVrUsVyUasQuLl0e1Co setj7Zl1Z84+6sF5ymzirmHptlNZc7V0FLsPO92QdH2ShAKcxwS6eaZFA+D6/C2UCCDfLhSXLw5Nn /MuYzVagnwnMlZlp0mZYFK6x02rProzJV9LVn3U5JLpWfrfqaBUH4QJ1eaILy9XwrBazTPKGRIzfE VoD2sZQmFuqBzlPjzN+tYQ83IlzAmNatuVMA== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:17:44 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (192.168.1.162) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:16:55 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Francesca Palombini' , "'Carsten Bormann'" , 'Brian E Carpenter' CC: References: <5e895b01-1530-e476-d4b3-1e8974c846d5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:17:41 -0700 Message-ID: <027001d33df5$79e88600$6db99200$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJufF783ippgC6lzAcLFbKdzLGYJgLosPPeASPRcRGhfo31UA== X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.162] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 16:19:47 -0000 Personally I don't need this, but I am use to computing this type of = thing for other types of encodings so this is nothing new to me. Other = than that I don't really have an opinion. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Francesca > Palombini > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 4:00 AM > To: Carsten Bormann ; Brian E Carpenter > > Cc: cbor@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string >=20 > Hi, >=20 > (chair hat off) as a user of CBOR, I also have come up with this = question, > mostly because from CBOR's own nature, it is interesting to know = what's the > upper bound overhead that CBOR encoding can add in particular cases. I > could definitely see something about that in the document, maybe even = just > as an appendix. >=20 > What does everybody else think? >=20 > Francesca >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten > Bormann > > Sent: den 12 augusti 2017 09:02 > > To: Brian E Carpenter > > Cc: cbor@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > On Aug 12, 2017, at 06:40, Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a practical question. Does anyone have any tips for > > > predicting the size of a CBOR byte string in advance? > > > > Are you talking about a single CBOR byte string and its = serialization > > (=3D encoded data item)? > > > > The (definite length) serialization is the size of the byte string, > > which becomes the body of the data item, plus the size of the head, > > which is > > > > 1 for 0..23 bytes > > 2 for 24..255 bytes > > 3 for 256..65535 bytes > > 5 for 2^16 to 2^32-1 bytes > > 9 for 2^32 to 2^64-1 bytes > > > > > Yes, I realise that looks like a silly question, so I'd better > > > explain. In some contexts there may be a practical limit on the = size > > > of CBOR byte string that can be sent. (The GRASP protocol, for > > > example, has a maximum allowed message size.) > > > > > > So, it would be very useful before starting to encode a series of > > > objects into CBOR to be able to predict the resulting number of > > > bytes (or more realistically, an upper bound). > > > > Hmm, maybe you aren=E2=80=99t talking about a single byte string. > > > > The size of a encoded CBOR data item is the size of the heads + the > > size of the bodies. > > The heads are one byte (initial byte) plus any additional bytes for > > exceeding > > 23 bytes/data items (see above). > > The bodies are the data themselves. > > > > So, essentially, add all string sizes (text string, byte string), = add > > one byte for each node in the tree, and then add additional bytes = for > > any nodes that are "larger than 23=E2=80=9D (integer size, number of = bytes, > > number of data items, tag number, floating point value). > > > > > > > > (I'm quite aware that doing the actual encoding is the only > > > reasonable way to get an exact answer.) > > > > An encoder could provide a less expensive counting mechanism that > > exercises the serialization mechanism without actually creating an > > output, just producing a byte count. > > > > > Of course it isn't hard to invent a rule of thumb for a particular > > > environment, but I've noticed that (in Python 3) the ratio between > > > Python object size and CBOR size is different between my Windows = and > > > my Linux machines. > > > > The CBOR objects are the same in both cases, no? > > How do you measure what you call the =E2=80=9CPython object = size=E2=80=9D? > > (Obviously, there are also 32-bit and 64-bit implementations of = Python > > and many other languages, which will differ in the size of internal > > representations.) > > > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CBOR mailing list > > CBOR@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Thu Oct 5 09:20:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1C81342AC for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:20:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0NJSF__lsfG for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70A2C1342F2 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1507220408; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=RmoqVZkBuYPPztL8zcPmfJ3xNn02VPZjPglOr3U+mik=; b=SzOamgG7t0azBEshQ9rg2marC1mXLird6ijpZzxf6QuaCtKksVmpBeoFjj4Aq9bEDO9yt6gMrqL S8DX3J6yb3Xu+Hj5fKhiGPUgPgNc3H1ina8svmyTQj5wGKke367JH4RHrYAxxy5r7ed5nhOx2s1di TyDLRBnNa+aPfikZmaxQMB7novUimDb1p7DnSccna8bDC7phz2/oHOjNzULoi1vhWX5JRWxC2zoi3 zjB+Rck9NyFMmH8eYt9DXmF74Axjct+G6+C0pjHVHK5TDqcfdxwCgKx5DXF5xQNeiOj5uR+QBxrf0 4gFUlU123p4wJs8g0/N/CzxdCOXW0+u6vkwQ== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:20:08 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (192.168.1.162) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:19:19 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:20:05 -0700 Message-ID: <027101d33df5$cf81aba0$6e8502e0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdM99Y/neza/KTscQXynl4K11Qygqg== X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.162] Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] CBOR does not need a schema X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 16:20:48 -0000 Having just responded to a message on the FUD list, I think that we need to expand the section dealing with what it means to have a schema for CBOR and the reasons that CBOR does not need to have a schema. There were some misconceptions about that. I have a task on my list to review this text but others may want to look at it as well. Jim From nobody Thu Oct 5 13:38:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E75133080 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 13:38:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iGEUFP0ES-BP for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 13:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x230.google.com (mail-pg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F4D6134319 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 13:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x230.google.com with SMTP id u144so6149114pgb.8 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:38:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ImYSXAXjA93knA9t+cKA5mAuCcQ2Ly0TEY7lG7glU24=; b=cxEAjgcOrq61SFd3574EPOlIL03h9GZBMUlcs+geEiXHgHgtr+kMbfiEmN3zoXYKaA BJqs6ppqFfx+N+5oCVW1La8eTu6+0/wvLH8ekVyb5W9BCYQhUXJ7+vkue4NovZGvwvTM MB4huMnFsXQCOzwuvbTKGX2i2WBq6y4MZxI4Itl+hgxO2/a9xH4G4prpuZGrHdQU/qky dmWbZA6+v8Q+trUogqOBokv2s4711NXNLW9cmlorW2k67477zH/bqoIaPUy085bGDAV4 hSYPnlV+/1QVFON6T5d9672BcXcM7LSl29hdmn3p+lIFAUFjzUyww4BkkL0pWVxstzoI hROg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ImYSXAXjA93knA9t+cKA5mAuCcQ2Ly0TEY7lG7glU24=; b=nY0YbOW6J17KszJUs8W4mdlakQwVlPuaiAVUluNlew0JHjjUJ8XOT5J21RG884Ptbw PZ0drbs0jXpfAZyuHC0sIAXk6oM/55s7FYlODadQFNps7qoVYyWahvSbW/XCLmaHUh69 rsIVFwXgSnqG5WQ9lW5SdBBbBPRq7UgZQpKBYXbvLQVDskoydiYkk7EKoJshQqqLGcOq xQOhyWxfohILtfM912+Axe9k3PddiAbkxDoeVSCvl6RN8GQfba9Gsk7qettofctfHikK V5QyOM0XS8aEjo7GEgze6Ho0nvTkYK+YeiAPZlq3gw9j3k6vCDo/zTVasbGF5qI5uf0l QnwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWT5dNNrndBQhZdavFaYPNYt0TUVbcX4PCaDIZkN3U7cu6x4ACv JkuBDS3+C50ilYwCIyQBLmw0Lw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCEpppIPU1OsT5pyDD79ELZhzm8MJgrKShmbGsCbN1VDXd1XDOuuOWr/TyjMBgaA95dyYmHRw== X-Received: by 10.99.172.25 with SMTP id v25mr220706pge.182.1507235881695; Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 72sm31605412pfj.102.2017.10.05.13.37.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Jim Schaad , 'Francesca Palombini' , 'Carsten Bormann' Cc: cbor@ietf.org References: <5e895b01-1530-e476-d4b3-1e8974c846d5@gmail.com> <027001d33df5$79e88600$6db99200$@augustcellars.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <55a9114a-3bf8-9d09-ac14-2fd612e5613b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 09:38:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <027001d33df5$79e88600$6db99200$@augustcellars.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 20:38:05 -0000 In my own code where this issue came up, I tried a pragmatic approach, namely application layer fragmentation of the data object when it got to be a bit too big in Python terms. But that doesn't work reliably because Python object "size" is a slippery concept. So I ended up using len(cbor.dumps(object)) anyway, which makes for redundant calls to dumps(). Regards Brian On 06/10/2017 05:17, Jim Schaad wrote: > Personally I don't need this, but I am use to computing this type of th= ing for other types of encodings so this is nothing new to me. Other tha= n that I don't really have an opinion. >=20 > Jim >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Francesca >> Palombini >> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 4:00 AM >> To: Carsten Bormann ; Brian E Carpenter >> >> Cc: cbor@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string >> >> Hi, >> >> (chair hat off) as a user of CBOR, I also have come up with this quest= ion, >> mostly because from CBOR's own nature, it is interesting to know what'= s the >> upper bound overhead that CBOR encoding can add in particular cases. I= >> could definitely see something about that in the document, maybe even = just >> as an appendix. >> >> What does everybody else think? >> >> Francesca >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten >> Bormann >>> Sent: den 12 augusti 2017 09:02 >>> To: Brian E Carpenter >>> Cc: cbor@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 06:40, Brian E Carpenter >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I have a practical question. Does anyone have any tips for >>>> predicting the size of a CBOR byte string in advance? >>> >>> Are you talking about a single CBOR byte string and its serialization= >>> (=3D encoded data item)? >>> >>> The (definite length) serialization is the size of the byte string, >>> which becomes the body of the data item, plus the size of the head, >>> which is >>> >>> 1 for 0..23 bytes >>> 2 for 24..255 bytes >>> 3 for 256..65535 bytes >>> 5 for 2^16 to 2^32-1 bytes >>> 9 for 2^32 to 2^64-1 bytes >>> >>>> Yes, I realise that looks like a silly question, so I'd better >>>> explain. In some contexts there may be a practical limit on the size= >>>> of CBOR byte string that can be sent. (The GRASP protocol, for >>>> example, has a maximum allowed message size.) >>>> >>>> So, it would be very useful before starting to encode a series of >>>> objects into CBOR to be able to predict the resulting number of >>>> bytes (or more realistically, an upper bound). >>> >>> Hmm, maybe you aren=E2=80=99t talking about a single byte string. >>> >>> The size of a encoded CBOR data item is the size of the heads + the >>> size of the bodies. >>> The heads are one byte (initial byte) plus any additional bytes for >>> exceeding >>> 23 bytes/data items (see above). >>> The bodies are the data themselves. >>> >>> So, essentially, add all string sizes (text string, byte string), add= >>> one byte for each node in the tree, and then add additional bytes for= >>> any nodes that are "larger than 23=E2=80=9D (integer size, number of = bytes, >>> number of data items, tag number, floating point value). >>> >>>> >>>> (I'm quite aware that doing the actual encoding is the only >>>> reasonable way to get an exact answer.) >>> >>> An encoder could provide a less expensive counting mechanism that >>> exercises the serialization mechanism without actually creating an >>> output, just producing a byte count. >>> >>>> Of course it isn't hard to invent a rule of thumb for a particular >>>> environment, but I've noticed that (in Python 3) the ratio between >>>> Python object size and CBOR size is different between my Windows and= >>>> my Linux machines. >>> >>> The CBOR objects are the same in both cases, no? >>> How do you measure what you call the =E2=80=9CPython object size=E2=80= =9D? >>> (Obviously, there are also 32-bit and 64-bit implementations of Pytho= n >>> and many other languages, which will differ in the size of internal >>> representations.) >>> >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CBOR mailing list >>> CBOR@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 5 14:26:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A439E1331D7 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rawXeocup-ko for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA241132D44 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1507238750; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=GNsKb6sTaGPXMfK7uB4gtwkw1OVgPlsDNo/pFF71olY=; b=eSaN6puLhttvcSdrvM7DJyF3VK0daP42WQcvSQlvQ/GAlPDv16Y9Ew98EEvriCzdbE0R5atJYC4 ay9v8lalmnupIvQRbZy7zC7SepSMoT2qYULe/zMok9sxnrQXIoR8MiXeDG3qFi5s17URp9+s+zIx3 puZu2j6qvbOBm3ERGq1En7MBbmV/PM8CrnqJot49aUyfT/TGXVCY8xX3MaGEpxQDlyTXJp8Vwog0V ISCmOt11AS0Uj51BITEGReSald/U/t9W+PMv12h6TQeev505Vg/f5ibNIVkVd4xEww+on23XsQocc Gctj9XDM51lV3mCOuPA/EMaPPAGvTABhWkYw== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:49 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (192.168.1.162) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:00 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Brian E Carpenter' , 'Francesca Palombini' , 'Carsten Bormann' CC: References: <5e895b01-1530-e476-d4b3-1e8974c846d5@gmail.com> <027001d33df5$79e88600$6db99200$@augustcellars.com> <55a9114a-3bf8-9d09-ac14-2fd612e5613b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55a9114a-3bf8-9d09-ac14-2fd612e5613b@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 14:25:46 -0700 Message-ID: <02a501d33e20$83f9fb30$8bedf190$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJufF783ippgC6lzAcLFbKdzLGYJgLosPPeASPRcRECExxR5wJYwOI7oVuFHNA= X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.162] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:26:00 -0000 That is the same basic approach that I have always used, but I generally = have a flag which does just the sizing and does not fill the buffer as I = go. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 1:38 PM > To: Jim Schaad ; 'Francesca Palombini' > ; 'Carsten Bormann' > Cc: cbor@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string >=20 > In my own code where this issue came up, I tried a pragmatic approach, > namely application layer fragmentation of the data object when it got = to be a > bit too big in Python terms. But that doesn't work reliably because = Python > object "size" is a slippery concept. > So I ended up using len(cbor.dumps(object)) anyway, which makes for > redundant calls to dumps(). >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 06/10/2017 05:17, Jim Schaad wrote: > > Personally I don't need this, but I am use to computing this type of = thing for > other types of encodings so this is nothing new to me. Other than = that I > don't really have an opinion. > > > > Jim > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Francesca > >> Palombini > >> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 4:00 AM > >> To: Carsten Bormann ; Brian E Carpenter > >> > >> Cc: cbor@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> (chair hat off) as a user of CBOR, I also have come up with this > >> question, mostly because from CBOR's own nature, it is interesting = to > >> know what's the upper bound overhead that CBOR encoding can add in > >> particular cases. I could definitely see something about that in = the > >> document, maybe even just as an appendix. > >> > >> What does everybody else think? > >> > >> Francesca > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten > >> Bormann > >>> Sent: den 12 augusti 2017 09:02 > >>> To: Brian E Carpenter > >>> Cc: cbor@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [Cbor] Predicting the size of a CBOR byte string > >>> > >>> Hi Brian, > >>> > >>>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 06:40, Brian E Carpenter > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I have a practical question. Does anyone have any tips for > >>>> predicting the size of a CBOR byte string in advance? > >>> > >>> Are you talking about a single CBOR byte string and its > >>> serialization (=3D encoded data item)? > >>> > >>> The (definite length) serialization is the size of the byte = string, > >>> which becomes the body of the data item, plus the size of the = head, > >>> which is > >>> > >>> 1 for 0..23 bytes > >>> 2 for 24..255 bytes > >>> 3 for 256..65535 bytes > >>> 5 for 2^16 to 2^32-1 bytes > >>> 9 for 2^32 to 2^64-1 bytes > >>> > >>>> Yes, I realise that looks like a silly question, so I'd better > >>>> explain. In some contexts there may be a practical limit on the > >>>> size of CBOR byte string that can be sent. (The GRASP protocol, = for > >>>> example, has a maximum allowed message size.) > >>>> > >>>> So, it would be very useful before starting to encode a series of > >>>> objects into CBOR to be able to predict the resulting number of > >>>> bytes (or more realistically, an upper bound). > >>> > >>> Hmm, maybe you aren=E2=80=99t talking about a single byte string. > >>> > >>> The size of a encoded CBOR data item is the size of the heads + = the > >>> size of the bodies. > >>> The heads are one byte (initial byte) plus any additional bytes = for > >>> exceeding > >>> 23 bytes/data items (see above). > >>> The bodies are the data themselves. > >>> > >>> So, essentially, add all string sizes (text string, byte string), > >>> add one byte for each node in the tree, and then add additional > >>> bytes for any nodes that are "larger than 23=E2=80=9D (integer = size, number > >>> of bytes, number of data items, tag number, floating point value). > >>> > >>>> > >>>> (I'm quite aware that doing the actual encoding is the only > >>>> reasonable way to get an exact answer.) > >>> > >>> An encoder could provide a less expensive counting mechanism that > >>> exercises the serialization mechanism without actually creating an > >>> output, just producing a byte count. > >>> > >>>> Of course it isn't hard to invent a rule of thumb for a = particular > >>>> environment, but I've noticed that (in Python 3) the ratio = between > >>>> Python object size and CBOR size is different between my Windows > >>>> and my Linux machines. > >>> > >>> The CBOR objects are the same in both cases, no? > >>> How do you measure what you call the =E2=80=9CPython object = size=E2=80=9D? > >>> (Obviously, there are also 32-bit and 64-bit implementations of > >>> Python and many other languages, which will differ in the size of > >>> internal > >>> representations.) > >>> > >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> CBOR mailing list > >>> CBOR@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > >> _______________________________________________ > >> CBOR mailing list > >> CBOR@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > > > > From nobody Fri Oct 6 03:30:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9BE134293 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:30:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TLOrG_IymTSB for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-edgeS23.fraunhofer.de (mail-edges23.fraunhofer.de [153.97.7.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86CE9133049 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2G4AQCwWddZ/xoHYZlbGQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBgm9uZG4nB4NzmgWBVCKYQQoYAQyFFgKEIFcBAgEBAQEBAgNoKIJlRiwBAQEBAQEmAQEBAQEBIwI+LAEBAQECAQEBIQpBEAsJAhEEAQEBJwMCAicfCQgGARIbig0HBQyIA51ngieLKQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgy2CAoFRgWorC4FAgTOEZAEBHjaCXS+CMgWYWIhbgQiBJoUwjxuFb4NVhzKIToxeAgQGBQIZAYE5WIEOUyZdEgGHDHQBhngNGAeBBQGBDwEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A2G4AQCwWddZ/xoHYZlbGQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBBwEBAQEBgm9uZG4nB4NzmgWBVCKYQQoYAQyFFgKEIFcBAgEBAQEBAgNoKIJlRiwBAQEBAQEmAQEBAQEBIwI+LAEBAQECAQEBIQpBEAsJAhEEAQEBJwMCAicfCQgGARIbig0HBQyIA51ngieLKQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFgy2CAoFRgWorC4FAgTOEZAEBHjaCXS+CMgWYWIhbgQiBJoUwjxuFb4NVhzKIToxeAgQGBQIZAYE5WIEOUyZdEgGHDHQBhngNGAeBBQGBDwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.42,482,1500933600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="53639907" Received: from mail-mtas26.fraunhofer.de ([153.97.7.26]) by mail-edgeS23.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA; 06 Oct 2017 12:29:51 +0200 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.42,482,1500933600"; d="scan'208,217";a="264751152" X-IronPort-Outbreak-Status: No, level 0, Unknown - Unknown Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de ([141.12.72.89]) by mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Oct 2017 12:29:50 +0200 Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id v96ATlnJ013225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:29:48 +0200 Received: from android-86100a6c0956de20.local (88.67.27.241) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:29:42 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 18:24:10 +0200 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <026b01d33df5$27919310$76b4b930$@augustcellars.com> References: <3FFCD42B-C1DE-43E3-A06D-608CACD55D86@tzi.org> <026b01d33df5$27919310$76b4b930$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----WRY2TZ5CKY544SVXMTJ650BR8ZYAMY" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , Jim Schaad , "'Francesca Palombini'" From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [88.67.27.241] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 10:30:01 -0000 ------WRY2TZ5CKY544SVXMTJ650BR8ZYAMY Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tend to agree (pols)=2E Other thoughts? Henk On October 5, 2017 6:15:23 PM GMT+02:00, Jim Schaad wrote: >My opinion on this issue is that the open choice only matches if there >is not an explicit choice with that value in the map=2E It is the >intention that this is what is there and if you have a fast parser >which check types, then it should fail=2E The code is going to presume >that the value with tag 4 is an int and should not get surprised in the >middle of processing, it should fail during validation if the parser is >that smart=2E > >=20 > >Thus { ?4=3D>int, * =3D>any} should fail for { 4:=E2=80=9Dtext=E2=80=9D= }=20 > >=20 > >Jim > >=20 > >=20 > >From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Francesca >Palombini >Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 3:53 AM >To: Carsten Bormann ; cbor@ietf=2Eorg >Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps > >=20 > >Sorry, early sent=2E The opinion I=E2=80=99d like to hear from the workin= g group: >is cuts something we want to consider putting in at this point? > > >Francesca > >=20 > >From: Francesca Palombini=20 >Sent: den 5 oktober 2017 12:51 >To: 'Jeffrey Yasskin' >; Carsten Bormann > >Cc: Kevin Braun >; >cbor@ietf=2Eorg =20 >Subject: RE: [Cbor] Validation of maps > >=20 > >Agreed with Jeffrey=2E > >=20 > >Reviving this thread to ask the opinion from the working group:=20 > >=20 > >From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Yasskin >Sent: den 20 juli 2017 03:16 >To: Carsten Bormann > >Cc: Kevin Braun >; >cbor@ietf=2Eorg =20 >Subject: Re: [Cbor] Validation of maps > >=20 > >By the time CDDL makes it to an RFC, we should be answering questions >like this by quoting normative text from >https://tools=2Eietf=2Eorg/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl-11#s= ection-3=2E5, >not just pointing at examples=2E > >=20 > >Jeffrey > >=20 > >On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Carsten Bormann > wrote: > >Hi Kevin, > >> I know the question of more formally specifying validation rules >already came up=2E One would think map validation would be fairly >obvious, but what happens when key types overlap? >> >> For example, I think the intention is that if you have >> >> top =3D { 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } >> >> then the key 4 must be present with an integer value, > >Right, that is the only way to match the first field=2E >(And there is no way to have that as well as another /4/ key with a >text string value=2E) > >> and you can have any number of other integer keys with text string >values=2E Okay, but what about: >> >> top =3D { ? 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } >> >> We might say this means that if a key of 4 appears, then it must have >an int value=2E Or, does it allow a key of 4 to appear with a text >string value while considering the optional "4 =3D> int" as being absent? > >Yes, that is the semantics=2E It is not always what a specifier might >intend=2E > >The reason is that the map opens a choice point=2E A member with key 4 >is starting to match the field=2E If the value however does not match >(because there is no int), the matcher falls back to the choice point=2E= =20 >It then tries the other field, and indeed, that matches=2E > >In the research underlying CDDL, we have discussed =E2=80=9Ccuts=E2=80=9D= (a concept >from error handling in Parse Expression Grammars (PEGs)) as the >solution to this=2E If ^ represents a cut, write: > >top =3D { ? 4 ^ =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr } > >Once the 4 matches, there is no way back; for this member, another >match is no longer tried=2E >A nice side effect is that anything except an int after a key of 4 can >give a definite error message of =E2=80=9Cint expected=E2=80=9D=2E >The cut proposal includes : as an abbreviation for ^=3D>, so you can >simply write: > >top =3D { ? 4: int, *int =3D> tstr } > >> Given the examples in the spec, I guess the intention is for such a >thing to mean the key 4, if present, has to have an int value=2E > >Which example leads you to this conclusion? > >> So, there is some kind of "match the most specific key" rule implied >(I guess)=2E > >Actually, the PEG semantics we have borrowed here is that the *first* >match is used=2E But only rules are matched that indeed match! > >> How that rule applies in more complex situations (where there is some >kind of nesting) probably needs to be spelled out=2E=2E=2E=2E Given: >> >> top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ? ( 5 =3D> 5, 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr } >> >> Must keys 5 & 6 be present together, > >Yes=2E > >The whole group in the parentheses is optional=2E > >> or does the wildcard allow only one of them to appear? > >(That was an early semantics we tried, and it leads down the drain=2E >It is much better to have a matcher that simply and stupidly follows >what=E2=80=99s in the grammar=2E) > >> Or, given: >> >> top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ( 5 =3D> 5 // 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr } >> >> does this mean { 1 : 1, 5 : 5, 6 : "hi" } is not valid? > >No=2E The first field eats the 1: 1, the second field only matches the >5: 5, so the third field gets to eat zero or more int: tstr, of which >6: =E2=80=9Chi=E2=80=9D is a match=2E > >> Is the 6 free to match the wildcard when the 5 has satisfied the >group choice? > >Yes=2E > >> >> Then there are cases where "most specific key" has no meaning, > >(Again, we use =E2=80=9Cfirst match=E2=80=9D=2E) > >> such as when two key types overlap each other and neither is a >single-value type=2E Consider: >> >> top =3D { * (0=2E=2E10) =3D> tstr, * (5=2E=2E15) =3D> int } >> >> Does this mean a key of 5 can have either a text string or an int >value? > >As long as there are no cuts here, yes=2E > >> Or, does it require that a key of 5, if present, must have a value >that is both a text string and an int at the same time (i=2Ee=2E it >disallows 5 to appear)? > >That would never be the semantics =E2=80=94 the fact that there are two >branches in a choice that can be fulfilled is not an error=2E > >With a cut like this: > >top =3D { * (0=2E=2E10) ^ =3D> tstr, * (5=2E=2E15) =3D> int } > >this could mean that key 0=2E=2E10 cut the choice and therefore need to >have a text string value, while the rest, 11=2E=2E15 can be integers, >because the choice is cut after matching 0=2E=2E10=2E > >So far, we haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case that actually needed the cut, = but it >is still nice to have that error message=2E >(We also haven=E2=80=99t implemented it yet, although we will certainly d= o that >over time=2E) > >Another example where a cut helps: > >message =3D orderbeer / orderwine > >orderbeer =3D { > type: =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D, > ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D, >} > >orderwine =3D { > type: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D, > color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D=2E >} > >If you feed {=E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cfer= ment=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D} into this, you get a >rather unspecific error message that tells you things don=E2=80=99t match= up =E2=80=94 >the matcher can=E2=80=99t really know whether the =E2=80=9Ctype=E2=80=9D = value of =E2=80=9Cwine" or the >=E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80=9D key is the =E2=80=9Ccause=E2=80=9D of neither b= ranch matching=2E > >If you add a cut: > >message =3D orderbeer / orderwine > >orderbeer =3D { > type: =E2=80=9Cbeer=E2=80=9D ^, > ferment: =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D, >} > >orderwine =3D { > type: =E2=80=9Cwine=E2=80=9D ^, > color: =E2=80=9Cred=E2=80=9D / =E2=80=9Cwhite=E2=80=9D=2E >} > >the matcher can tell you right away that the key =E2=80=9Cferment=E2=80= =9D is not >allowed in an orderwine message=2E > >Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > >_______________________________________________ >CBOR mailing list >CBOR@ietf=2Eorg =20 >https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/cbor > >=20 --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------WRY2TZ5CKY544SVXMTJ650BR8ZYAMY Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tend to agree (pols)=2E Other thoughts?

Henk

On October 5, 2017 6:15:23 PM GMT+0= 2:00, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars=2Ecom> wrote:

My opinion on this issu= e is that the open choice only matches if there is not an explicit choice w= ith that value in the map=2E  It is the intention that this is what is= there and if you have a fast parser which check types, then it should fail= =2E  The code is going to presume that the value with tag 4 is an int = and should not get surprised in the middle of processing, it should fail du= ring validation if the parser is that smart=2E

 

Thus  { ?4=3D>int, * = =3D>any}  should fail for { 4:”text”}

 

Jim

 

 

From: CBOR [mai= lto:cbor-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini
<= b>Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 3:53 AM
To: Carsten Borma= nn <cabo@tzi=2Eorg>; cbor@ietf=2Eorg
Subject: Re: [Cbor] = Validation of maps

&nbs= p;

Sorry, early sent=2E The opinion I’d lik= e to hear from the working group: is cuts something we want to consider put= ting in at this point?


Francesca

=

 

From: Francesca Palombini
Sent: den 5 oktober 2017 12:51
To: 'Jeffrey Yasskin' <jyasskin@chromium=2Eorg>; Carste= n Bormann <cabo@tzi=2Eorg>
Cc: Kevin Braun <kbraun@= obj-sys=2Ecom>; cbor@ietf=2Eorg
Subject: RE: [Cbor] Validation of maps

 

Agreed with Jeffrey=2E

 

Reviving this = thread to ask the opinion from the working group:

 

From: CBOR [mailto:cbo= r-bounces@ietf=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Yasskin
Sent:= den 20 juli 2017 03:16
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi=2Eorg>
Cc: Kevin Braun &= lt;kbraun@obj-sys=2Ecom>; cbor@ietf=2Eorg
Subject: R= e: [Cbor] Validation of maps

<= /p>

 

By the time CDDL makes it to an= RFC, we should be answering questions like this by quoting normative text = from https://tools=2Eietf=2Eorg/html/draft-gree= venbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl-11#section-3=2E5, not just pointing at examp= les=2E

 

Jeffrey

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11= :18 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi=2Eorg> wrote:

Hi Kevin,

> I know the question of more form= ally specifying validation rules already came up=2E  One would think m= ap validation would be fairly obvious, but what happens when key types over= lap?
>
> For example, I think the intention is that if you = have
>
>   top =3D { 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> = tstr }
>
> then the key 4 must be present with an integer v= alue,

Right, that is the only way to match the first field=2E(And there is no way to have that as well as another /4/ key with a text= string value=2E)

> and you can have any number of other inte= ger keys with text string values=2E Okay, but what about:
>
&g= t; top =3D { ? 4 =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr }
>
> We mi= ght say this means that if a key of 4 appears, then it must have an int val= ue=2E  Or, does it allow a key of 4 to appear with a text string value= while considering the optional "4 =3D> int" as being absent?<= br />
Yes, that is the semantics=2E  It is not always what a spec= ifier might intend=2E

The reason is that the map opens a choice = point=2E  A member with key 4 is starting to match the field=2E  = If the value however does not  match (because there is no int), the ma= tcher falls back to the choice point=2E  It then tries the other field= , and indeed, that matches=2E

In the research underlying CDDL, w= e have discussed “cuts” (a concept from error handling in Parse= Expression Grammars (PEGs)) as the solution to this=2E  If ^ represen= ts a cut, write:

top =3D { ? 4 ^ =3D> int, *int =3D> tstr = }

Once the 4 matches, there is no way back; for this member, ano= ther match is no longer tried=2E
A nice side effect is that anything e= xcept an int after a key of 4 can give a definite error message of “i= nt expected”=2E
The cut proposal includes : as an abbreviation f= or ^=3D>, so you can simply write:

top =3D { ? 4: int, *int = =3D> tstr }

> Given the examples in the spec, I guess the = intention is for such a thing to mean the key 4, if present, has to have an= int value=2E

Which example leads you to this conclusion?
<= br />>  So, there is some kind of "match the most specific key= " rule implied (I guess)=2E

Actually, the PEG semantics we = have borrowed here is that the *first* match is used=2E  But only rule= s are matched that indeed match!

> How that rule applies in m= ore complex situations (where there is some kind of nesting) probably needs= to be spelled out=2E=2E=2E=2E  Given:
>
>   = ;top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ? ( 5 =3D> 5, 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D> tstr }=
>
> Must keys 5 & 6 be present together,

Ye= s=2E

The whole group in the parentheses is optional=2E

> or does the wildcard allow only one of them to appear?

(T= hat was an early semantics we tried, and it leads down the drain=2E
It= is much better to have a matcher that simply and stupidly follows what&rsq= uo;s in the grammar=2E)

> Or, given:
>
> = ;  top =3D { 1 =3D> 1, ( 5 =3D> 5 // 6 =3D> 6 ), *int =3D>= tstr }
>
> does this mean { 1 : 1, 5 : 5, 6 : "hi&quo= t; }  is not valid?

No=2E  The first field eats the 1:= 1, the second field only matches the 5: 5, so the third field gets to eat = zero or more int: tstr, of which 6: “hi” is a match=2E
> Is the 6 free to match the wildcard when the 5 has satisfied the gr= oup choice?

Yes=2E

>
> Then there are case= s where "most specific key" has no meaning,

(Again, we= use “first match”=2E)

> such as when two key typ= es overlap each other and neither is a single-value type=2E  Consider:=
>
>   top =3D { * (0=2E=2E10) =3D> tstr, * (5= =2E=2E15) =3D> int }
>
> Does this mean a key of 5 can h= ave either a text string or an int value?

As long as there are n= o cuts here, yes=2E

> Or, does it require that a key of 5, if= present, must have a value that is both a text string and an int at the sa= me time (i=2Ee=2E it disallows 5 to appear)?

That would never be= the semantics — the fact that there are two branches in a choice tha= t can be fulfilled is not an error=2E

With a cut like this:

top =3D { * (0=2E=2E10) ^ =3D> tstr, * (5=2E=2E15) =3D> int }<= br />
this could mean that key 0=2E=2E10 cut the choice and therefore = need to have a text string value, while the rest, 11=2E=2E15 can be integer= s, because the choice is cut after matching 0=2E=2E10=2E

So far,= we haven’t seen a use case that actually needed the cut, but it is s= till nice to have that error message=2E
(We also haven’t impleme= nted it yet, although we will certainly do that over time=2E)

An= other example where a cut helps:

message =3D orderbeer / orderwi= ne

orderbeer =3D {
  type: “beer”,
&n= bsp; ferment: “bottom” / “top”,
}

o= rderwine =3D {
  type: “wine”,
  color: &ld= quo;red” / “white”=2E
}

If you feed {&ldq= uo;type”: “wine”, “ferment”: “top&rdquo= ;} into this, you get a rather unspecific error message that tells you thin= gs don’t match up — the matcher can’t really know whether= the “type” value of “wine" or the “ferment&rd= quo; key is the “cause” of neither branch matching=2E

If you add a cut:

message =3D orderbeer / orderwine

orderbeer =3D {
  type: “beer” ^,
  fermen= t: “bottom” / “top”,
}

orderwine = =3D {
  type: “wine” ^,
  color: “red= ” / “white”=2E
}

the matcher can tell you= right away that the key “ferment” is not allowed in an orderwi= ne message=2E

Grüße, Carsten


_______________________________________________CBOR mailing list
CBOR@ietf=2Eor= g
https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/cbor

<= /div>

 


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------WRY2TZ5CKY544SVXMTJ650BR8ZYAMY-- From nobody Sat Oct 14 02:25:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BCC13235C; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:25:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ujvxbpq98_Ci; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F377E133049; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9E9Ox8h004393; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:24:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.119] (p5DC7FC78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.252.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yDfLg0x85zDMBr; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:24:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 529665898.341332-7b72f59c77b8f11dd7ec6cdf17e94c6b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:24:58 +0200 Message-Id: <6241D667-C2A1-41EF-83CB-D264BF9DFD3F@tzi.org> To: ace , "core@ietf.org WG" , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF100: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 09:25:08 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF100. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. The CBOR/SUIT conflict needs to be fixed. Also, maybe CORE and 6TISCH are going to swap so we have more time between the two CORE meetings. All times are SGT (UTC+0800). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, November 10, 2017 -- Joint meeting of OCF and T2TRG @ OCF meeting venue SATURDAY/SUNDAY -- Hackathon (including various interops) MONDAY, November 13, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer ART dispatch Dispatch WG - 0930-1100 Joint = with ARTAREA Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG - = 1100-1200 Olivia INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Sophia OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Olivia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Padang OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Bras Basah ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Collyer INT homenet Home Networking WG Padang IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Canning SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Padang SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Canning TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, November 14, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Sophia TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Olivia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Canning OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Bras Basah SEC tokbind Token Binding WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Padang IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Olivia RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Sophia SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG WEDNESDAY, November 15, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Sophia INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Collyer INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG - 0930-1030 Collyer INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG = - 1100-1200 Bras Basah IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Canning TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Bras Basah ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Collyer SEC *** teep A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution = Environment Enablement BOF Orchard TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Collyer INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Orchard SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG THURSDAY, November 16, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Padang IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Sophia RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Canning SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Sophia INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Collyer IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking Proposed RG Padang SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Sophia INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Canning RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Orchard SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG Padang TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting FRIDAY, November 17, 2017 0930-1130 Morning Session I Canning ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Orchard RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Collyer TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session I Olivia SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG From nobody Sat Oct 14 02:57:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A89C1323B4; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:56:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r2FHkt4ggfUC; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E5EE13307F; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 02:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9E9uJYD028675; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:56:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.119] (p5DC7FC78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.252.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yDg2q2lbCzDMC7; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:56:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6241D667-C2A1-41EF-83CB-D264BF9DFD3F@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:56:18 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 529667778.821235-c9d7eaa3be613be80ad8719f41133613 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6241D667-C2A1-41EF-83CB-D264BF9DFD3F@tzi.org> To: ace , "core@ietf.org WG" , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] FIXED: Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF100: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 09:56:36 -0000 (Sorry for the resend; the previous version missed out on all meetings in the room "VIP A", and I didn't see those conflicts either.) Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF100. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. The CBOR/SUIT conflict needs to be fixed. Also, maybe CORE and 6TISCH are going to swap so we have more time between the two CORE meetings. ROLL vs. TEEP is a bit unfortunate, as is DINRG vs. LPWAN vs. DISPATCH. All times are SGT (UTC+0800). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten MONDAY, November 13, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer ART dispatch Dispatch WG - 0930-1100 Joint = with ARTAREA Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG - = 1100-1200 Olivia INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG VIP A IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure = Proposed RG Sophia OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Olivia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Padang OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Bras Basah ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Collyer INT homenet Home Networking WG Padang IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Canning SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Padang SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Canning TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, November 14, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Sophia TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Olivia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Canning OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Bras Basah SEC tokbind Token Binding WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Padang IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Olivia RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Sophia SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG WEDNESDAY, November 15, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Sophia INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Collyer INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG - 0930-1030 Collyer INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG = - 1100-1200 Bras Basah IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Canning TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Bras Basah ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG VIP A RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Collyer SEC *** teep A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution = Environment Enablement BOF Orchard TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Collyer INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG VIP A IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Orchard SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG THURSDAY, November 16, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Padang IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Sophia RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Canning SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Sophia INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Collyer IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking Proposed RG Padang SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II VIP A ART ice Interactive Connectivity Establishment = WG - 1550-1650 Sophia INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Canning RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Orchard SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG Padang TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting FRIDAY, November 17, 2017 0930-1130 Morning Session I Canning ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Orchard RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Collyer TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session I Olivia SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG From nobody Sat Oct 14 13:09:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3914E12426E; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:09:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150801176018.5174.7561363908584995322@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:09:20 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 20:09:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Authors : Carsten Bormann Paul Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01.txt Pages : 57 Date : 2017-10-14 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. These design goals make it different from earlier binary serializations such as ASN.1 and MessagePack. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Oct 14 13:17:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694D1132A89 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fyR_ilUUDvn8 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8726A1321A7 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.60] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id v9EKGZ6a002109 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:16:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [10.32.60.60] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: cbor@ietf.org Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:17:51 -0700 Message-ID: <7C2D457D-1265-492A-897E-BE46B4F1348E@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <150801176018.5174.7561363908584995322@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150801176018.5174.7561363908584995322@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 20:17:55 -0000 We are still quite open to comments and pull requests on this document. I am particularly interested in the language and data-structure folks poring over Section 2.5 (CBOR Data Models) and being picky about it. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:26:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132B61344C5; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: cbor@ietf.org, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854545807.20809.12778746424866658847.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] cbor - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:18 -0000 Dear Francesca Palombini, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. cbor Session 1 (1:30:00) Thursday, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750 Room Name: Olivia size: 150 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Francesca Palombini Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: artarea dispatch core ace anima t2trg 6tisch dtn Second Priority: saag webpush sacm lpwan httpbis dots lwig roll Third Priority: detnet dnsop People who must be present: Alexey Melnikov Joe Hildebrand Francesca Palombini Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Oct 21 00:25:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8B4126BF3; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AZhVVvaNtwQx; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65BD5132C32; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9L7Ov0j002362; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 09:24:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.44.182] (vpn27.hotsplots.net [185.46.137.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yJvLp5pDyzDWYW; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 09:24:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 530263478.505612-13ffd0836dba12edc5c52d7ceea636c1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 09:24:38 +0200 Message-Id: <1B709418-2990-4B00-9D7E-32AAA5637C7F@tzi.org> To: ace , "core@ietf.org WG" , cose , cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF100: FINAL AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 07:25:05 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the "FINAL" AGENDA for IETF100. Remember that "FINAL" means this will be the basis for printed agenda sheets, there is still some potential for changes after that. The CBOR/SUIT conflict has been fixed, but now there is overlap between 6TISCH and SUIT. ROLL vs. TEEP is a bit unfortunate, as is DINRG vs. LPWAN vs. DISPATCH. All times are SGT (UTC+0800). (You can get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, November 10, 2017 -- Joint meeting of OCF and T2TRG @ OCF meeting venue SATURDAY/SUNDAY -- Hackathon (including various interops) MONDAY, November 13, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer ART dispatch Dispatch WG - 0930-1100 Joint = with ARTAREA Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG - = 1100-1200 Olivia INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG VIP A IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure = Proposed RG Sophia OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Sophia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Padang OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Bras Basah INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Collyer INT homenet Home Networking WG Padang IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Canning SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = BOF 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Sophia INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG - 0930-1030 Padang SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Canning TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, November 14, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Collyer SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Olivia TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Bras Basah ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Canning INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG VIP A SEC tokbind Token Binding WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Padang IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Olivia RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Sophia SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG WEDNESDAY, November 15, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Canning INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Olivia INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG = - 1100-1200 VIP A IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Collyer TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Bras Basah ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG VIP A RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Collyer SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning BOF Orchard TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Collyer INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG VIP A IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Orchard SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG THURSDAY, November 16, 2017 0930-1200 Morning Session I Padang IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Collyer OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Sophia RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Canning SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Sophia INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Collyer IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking Proposed RG Padang SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Olivia ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG VIP A ART ice Interactive Connectivity Establishment = WG - 1550-1650 Canning RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Sophia SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III VIP A SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG Padang TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting FRIDAY, November 17, 2017 0930-1130 Morning Session I Canning ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG VIP A RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Collyer TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG From nobody Mon Oct 23 00:29:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA4513EADC; 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Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:29:40 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "cbor-chairs@ietf.org" , "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Slot requests for IETF100 Thread-Index: AdNL0CgadfgXW1ChTf2hJeghn9GGPQ== Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:29:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=francesca.palombini@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.89] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1PR07MB1529; 6:SAWpd2w7flpamWKdc6TDf/7ZS8+6FlWkUHd1t4cvxHuqdibOPjOiddLMebLWdf8YqxE7+P2UKFZeea/RVDGrn07itdYULOwoE8NQhR0AM7yzSsj0mOJQhloW2qVkUu8bB+e7szfWwwrom1NM9438DFumxQCWitkmwV9uUD+ifQfIf+pRA5VJkV+yT+4BQtU5H5wEea+JDXvIJ5LMNK6br09tV7H8V5F/YbKYVrSILPTYxYEK5b94tmnPOPPmxw/ojmQ3GPovprjlYT1czJ77hNIHwbSh1oPTu7AHN+3Pnl8JA5rNlnid5XyIg1m3YDD2sBlq35RVsgr/QBwZqfap8A==; 5:Pi5WkUViHAxi1F7YUq0t2F2oCqLfLhaZnPUE/mWTIiiVrYCT8qkQpq+XoqkHunS4GsW1BOpvu+pxDgjLuRAaozxmJ/wKKtoJmwfn6ULtWrKDuC3QzFujUFtfbB3F//zOccbF9lk+HtYxfhuJvcnBFw==; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Oct 2017 07:29:40.2238 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB1529 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpgleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdSTd91ttIg+f/RCxm/93CaDGzYzqL A5PHkiU/mQIYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgyJq88zF6wR6Ri9t7vLA2MP4S7GDk5JARMJNo3fmXu YuTiEBI4wijx8e8lVgjnBKPE4+dzmUGqWAR6mSUu9UtCJKYzSSxdsx+q5TGjxJIDXxlBqtgE bCQuPHzPCmKLCIRIzL9xnx3EFhZQklg+7RszRFxdomvTTJYuRg4gW0/izwtuiAWqEveXTmcB sXkFYiQuz/wKVs4oICvxpXE1mM0sIC5x68l8JoizBSSW7DnPDGGLSrx8/I8Voj5Z4srtPnaI uILE8RVv2SBsWYlL87sZQW6WEGhjl2ifuRMqoSexdeJbRgjbV+JN71Y2iKKZjBLbNh6CKtKS WPx/O9RUb4mb3yEulRDIljje/R6q4QqrxN+F16CKZCQ+np3MDpFYzSox4+AksPuEBFIllq9t ZYQEi5TE3SudjBMYtWYheW8WMGSYBTQl1u/ShwgrSkzpfsg+CxwyghInZz5hWcDIsopRtDi1 OCk33chYL7UoM7m4OD9PLy+1ZBMjMF0c3PJbdQfj5TeOhxgFOBiVeHgdgGlEiDWxrLgy9xCj BAezkgjvHAugEG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcV7HfRcihATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxS DYyZeXNm7C2XflqTUvvI7l2M9B2XI3PU5xfaCrxb/eUI0w3XwOb1lwu+n+sRuH+iY/8EnSP/ J7kX3RD5m+C5Jp9FPFdGX5IhOk0neNICqcInzsecf0nr33zxaVXppFX9wc6CPmbWXavbZgu/ PdeVmqoQEmYVxre3aOLFBbUrDBva73+elqWbx6vEUpyRaKjFXFScCABVKqFkEwMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Slot requests for IETF100 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:29:47 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpXZSBhcmUgc3RhcnRpbmcgdG8gcGxhbiB0aGUgQ0JPUiBzZXNzaW9uIGZvciB0 aGUgSUVURjEwMC4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGhhdmluZyBhIHByZXNlbnRhdGlv biBzbG90LCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCBhIHJlcXVlc3QgdG8gdGhlIGNoYWlycyBieSBTdW5kYXkgT2N0 IDI5dGgsIHdpdGggdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBkZXRhaWxzOiANCg0KLSBEcmFmdA0KLSBBYnN0cmFj dDogQSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbGluZXMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IG9yIHRvcGljLg0KLSBPYmpl Y3RpdmU6IFByZXNlbnQgYW4gaWRlYSwgZ2V0IGFkb3B0aW9uLCBhc2sgZm9yIGZlZWRiYWNrL3Jl dmlld2Vycy8uLi4NCi0gVGltZTogSG93IG11Y2ggdGltZSB5b3UgdGhpbmsgeW91IHdpbGwgbmVl ZA0KDQpTZWUgeW91IHNvb24gaW4gU2luZ2Fwb3JlLA0KRnJhbmNlc2NhICYgSm9lDQoNCg0KDQo+ IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206ICJJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0IiBb bWFpbHRvOmFnZW5kYUBpZXRmLm9yZ10NCj4gU2VudDogZGVuIDIxIG9rdG9iZXIgMjAxNyAwMjoy NA0KPiBUbzogY2Jvci1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IEZyYW5jZXNjYSBQYWxvbWJpbmkNCj4gPGZy YW5jZXNjYS5wYWxvbWJpbmlAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPg0KPiBDYzogY2JvckBpZXRmLm9yZzsgYWFt ZWxuaWtvdkBmYXN0bWFpbC5mbQ0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBjYm9yIC0gUmVxdWVzdGVkIHNlc3Npb24g aGFzIGJlZW4gc2NoZWR1bGVkIGZvciBJRVRGIDEwMA0KPiANCj4gRGVhciBGcmFuY2VzY2EgUGFs b21iaW5pLA0KPiANCj4gVGhlIHNlc3Npb24ocykgdGhhdCB5b3UgaGF2ZSByZXF1ZXN0ZWQgaGF2 ZSBiZWVuIHNjaGVkdWxlZC4NCj4gQmVsb3cgaXMgdGhlIHNjaGVkdWxlZCBzZXNzaW9uIGluZm9y bWF0aW9uIGZvbGxvd2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCByZXF1ZXN0Lg0KPiANCj4gY2JvciBTZXNz aW9uIDEgKDE6MzA6MDApDQo+ICAgICBUaHVyc2RheSwgQWZ0ZXJub29uIFNlc3Npb24gSUkgMTU1 MC0xNzUwDQo+ICAgICBSb29tIE5hbWU6IE9saXZpYSBzaXplOiAxNTANCj4gICAgIC0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBSZXF1 ZXN0IEluZm9ybWF0aW9uOg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwIE5hbWU6IENvbmNp c2UgQmluYXJ5IE9iamVjdCBSZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBNYWludGVuYW5jZQ0KPiBhbmQgRXh0ZW5z aW9ucyBBcmVhIE5hbWU6IEFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBhbmQgUmVhbC1UaW1lIEFyZWEgU2Vzc2lvbg0K PiBSZXF1ZXN0ZXI6IEZyYW5jZXNjYSBQYWxvbWJpbmkNCj4gDQo+IE51bWJlciBvZiBTZXNzaW9u czogMQ0KPiBMZW5ndGggb2YgU2Vzc2lvbihzKTogIDEuNSBIb3Vycw0KPiBOdW1iZXIgb2YgQXR0 ZW5kZWVzOiA2MA0KPiBDb25mbGljdHMgdG8gQXZvaWQ6DQo+ICBGaXJzdCBQcmlvcml0eTogYXJ0 YXJlYSBkaXNwYXRjaCBjb3JlIGFjZSBhbmltYSB0MnRyZyA2dGlzY2ggZHRuICBTZWNvbmQNCj4g UHJpb3JpdHk6IHNhYWcgd2VicHVzaCBzYWNtIGxwd2FuIGh0dHBiaXMgZG90cyBsd2lnIHJvbGwg IFRoaXJkIFByaW9yaXR5Og0KPiBkZXRuZXQgZG5zb3ANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBQZW9wbGUgd2hvIG11 c3QgYmUgcHJlc2VudDoNCj4gICBBbGV4ZXkgTWVsbmlrb3YNCj4gICBKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0K PiAgIEZyYW5jZXNjYSBQYWxvbWJpbmkNCj4gDQo+IFJlc291cmNlcyBSZXF1ZXN0ZWQ6DQo+IA0K PiBTcGVjaWFsIFJlcXVlc3RzOg0KPiANCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCg==